Arkansas Legislative Council (ALC)
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- October 2, 2026
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
2:13
members if you would let's go ahead and take your seats members if you would
Speaker 6
2:20
let's go ahead and take our seats Members members if you would
Speaker 10
2:43
let's go ahead and take your seats please. right
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
2:56
thank you for calling Arkansas Legislative council to order we will begin with Representative Lane Jean to open us in prayerpresenten
if you would press your button and you're recognized let's bow our heads a father that hadn we're thankful for all
Representative Lane Jean
Unverified
3:14
the blessings this day we're thankful for your sonn Jesus who came to this earth and died on the cross for our remission of our sins dearlord we ask you to be with us today as we do the state's business that we do it in a manner of pleasing to thee we ask that your favor be on our first responders of the state on this country the military that you're grace and be with them and and watch over them as they protect our freedom. we ask that you be with us the rest of this meeting forgive us for our sins
when we fall short in Christ's name we pray amen
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
3:56
right good morning members thank you all for being here we're gonna go ahead and begin and get started let's go we're gonna start with item C. I'll entertain a motion to adopt the minutes of the last meeting June 20th. I have a motion, I have a second in discussion all in favor say aye
let's habit. moving to itemd Doctorsilva if you would please come and present you're recognized you'll introduce yourself. thank you Mr
Speaker 20
4:33
Chairman Carlossilva bureau of legislative Reearch and to them presenting the July2025 monthly revenue report that's
Speaker 21
4:38
our first report of of this fiscal year as we look into our gross collections for this month we
have636.8 million dollars that's an increase of $21 million from last from the July2024 or3.4% increase as we look looking into a net available for distribution we have557.48 million dollars that's also an increase of $29.8 million when compared to July last year which is5.6% increase as we move into page number 2 even though it's just one month here we have
increase of 20 $29.2 million difference from the forecast for the agency for this month so assuming things there's no no further growth here and that the agents got everything correct we would have $214.3 million have a long time to go here but we had a expect a surplus by the end of the 185 plus that 29.2 but as I say has a long time to go here but it's moving up positive direction
on page three to page number4 and5 you're gonna have general revenue collections and from page five and beyond we're gonna have this special revenue collections as we we look into delinquencies that's one thing I normally talked about delinquencies have kind of stabilized in in some of the the auto industry and and some of the other industries we talked about unfortunately have seen an increase in the student loans delinquency have increased significantly but we are keeping an eye on that to see if
it's going to have some changes within the other groups as well and and the impact
Speaker 22
6:30
on that with that'll take any further questions related to this report
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
6:35
thank you doctorctor Silva looks like we do have some questions going first Representative Ladyman you're recognized
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
6:42
thank you Mr Chairman I'm over here. I I've got a question on page one there corporate income tax refunds are down 92% from3.6 million to 287,000
any idea why that is such a big change sorry which line sir? page one under adju general revenues fourth item now corporate income tax refunds Charles on
Speaker 27
7:11
page number 2 just think is that due to the delayed
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
7:20
filing or is there some other reason? that that that that's kind of
Speaker 21
7:28
that my understanding yes sir and as you're gonna see on page number sorry page number3 which is our page number one here of our our our main report you're gonna see an increase there on in some of the corporate estimates individual final payments and on the individual estimates we saw some of those positive changes from the adjustment they'll have the extension so we have seen that there and that would follow within that adjustment on
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
7:58
that first pages estimates under income tax increased by 238.9% so is that related that's related extension yes
Speaker 20
8:05
sir that's my understanding from the conversation with the agency
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
8:08
one other question for my on the front page I'm looking at economic development
development incentives that's down36%. I mean oh it's a small number well 2 million versus 1.2 million is there a reason for that's going on there those are those are set up
Speaker 21
8:33
Previously so that I I don't know what the difference on that I don't know what the difference on that we we also breaking down as you see that recycling tax credit and what energy tax credit as well for this year so we we were we don't have any change in those two but the economic demand incentive fund is just the economic development center fund that does not include the recycling tax credit or the woody credit but I do can sorry go ahead sir Mr chairman can commerce come up later or now or sometime I'd
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
9:04
like to know do you mind if I take the other questions and get back to that thank you thank you all right if you'll get back in
Representative David Ray
Unverified
9:13
the queuepresentative all right going to RepresentativeRay you're recognized thank you Mr. chairir. just a quick question Doctorsilva about the state income tax filing deadline being pushed to December is there any way our or have you been able to quantify what impact that might have on collections of income tax and what how much that
Speaker 21
9:35
might move that down the line a bit we had some this month as as we have seen but we we did not work on on that specific is that something that wouldu you would like to we would definitely contact the agents get more information in order to
Speaker 43
9:50
to to do that for you but we do not have that as as of right
Speaker 44
9:56
now ok thank you right version of wooten
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
10:00
you're recognized thank you Mr Chairman. uhm Silver, have you had any indication of any impact from
the tariffs that are being put it in place do you think that will affect our corporate income or or affect our economy So there's
Speaker 21
10:21
many changes that have happened within the last few months and has changed that have happened some some of those things we we have like like I said with the
decline in the weakness I guess within the delinquency right we have an increase in in ting consume some of those groups we we have seen some pressure there on on on the prices but it has some time to go right so we we we have seen as you look into CPI we have seen acceleration there we
have seen some acceleration in in some of the other imports but as things increase depends on how the the job market turns out if if we have some increase and inflationary increase here we might see some in some potential deceleration in the state but
that is still something that we are looking at I guess it's
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
11:46
my best answer here right now so if I understand what your follow up if I understand what you're saying it's yet to be determined that total impact from what what we anticipate and your forecast versus what reality might be yeah that's that's that's that's correct theres
Speaker 21
12:03
a lot to to go into there's a lot of things that still happening a lot of moving parts out there that's still coming
through to the consumer but we are definitely looking and that is something that I can definitely touch
Speaker 43
12:17
base with you after this meeting if you
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
12:21
wanna talk more about it sir thank you thank you
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
12:24
sir and thank you Mr Chairman. Thank youpresentative Representativeladydyman you're recognized and I'm gonna go ahead and call up Secretary Hudson
Speaker 55
12:48
Jim Hudson secretary DFfa good morning Representativeladyman. so your question was on the economic incentive fund generally the incentive fund that particular incentive fund is for one of the incentives that's called create rebate that is a a payment back to companies who qualify have been approved by ADC get a rebate on just job creation essentially that incentive does not pay out rateably over the course of the year it's very lumpy and so it really depends on what
projects have completed and hiring's been completed we had some some big projects finished last summer so I suspect that's probably some of the steel plants that we're seeing in some of that some of that money so you should expect that number to oscillate up and down throughout the fiscal year thank you yes sir appreciate that
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
13:35
you bet right see no other questions
thank you both all right we'll go to item E I recognize my co-chair Representative Eaves.
Thank you senator. Members of the executive subcommittee met yesterday and reviewed and approved emergency rules for the Arkansas sentencing Commission and the Office of Property Risk all members and alternates of Alc were notified of this action by email yesterday and the review and approval of these emergency rules will be effective upon adjournment of today's meeting the subcommittee also authorizedblr to move forward with renewal of its contract with Lexus for the publishing and editing of Arkansas code Finally the subcommittee heard a presentation from Oltsburg SPI concerning the final report and
recommendations on the motion picture study there's also a report in your packets showing emergency action taken by the legislative council co-chairs on July25th authorizingblr to enter an amendment to which contract with Ecao for procurement consulting services and to extend the term of the contract to the end of the year I move adoption of this report m emb er as you've heard motion do you have a
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
14:44
second? I have a second any discussion on the motion ? See none all in favor say aye
any opposed ayes have it members of also thank you at this time I'd also like to announce that ALC meeting week in September will be moved back one week to the week of September 22 through September 26th so if you'd please mark that on your calendar and at this time I'd like to recognize Mr Char with your permission, Miss Jill Thayer for an announcement.
Speaker 61
15:17
Miss Thaeryer you're recognized thank you Mr Chair Jillhayer bureau of legislative Research. in 2019 the general assembly passed an act sponsored by then
Representative dotson and Senator Disang to create the code of Arkansas rules. under that act the bureau was assigned the the task of compiling all of the agency rules throughout the state and codifying those to create the code of Arkansas rules and create a make them more usable usable and available to the public. After6 years of hard work and compiling thousands of pages of agency rules into one usable and searchable format and with a lot of collaboration from the other
from the agencies and the governor's staff that code of Arkansas rules is now live and on our website as of January 1st of this year, Senator Gilmore and Representative Eaves asked that I let you all know that last week at the administrative code and registers section meeting of the national association of Secretaries of State conference, the code of Arkansas rulesgrame and website received the robert J Colburn Jnior. innovation award. This is a huge honor for the bureau and our
staff particularly Aaaclanum and Rebecca Miller ris and all of our administrative rules and code of Arkansas rules staff who worked so hard on this project over the past several years. this was a massive undertaking and it's really going to be a huge benefit to our state and all the people of the state that can now find easily all the administrative rules so thank you for the time thank you miss there
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
17:00
members that was a huge undertaking my thanks to senators dotson and Disming for their
leadership on that and our staff most importantly for all of their work and many of them are standing
back here so thank you for that all right moving along to administrative rules report, Senator deeses if you
would thank you you're recognized thank
Senator Tyler Dees
Unverified
17:22
you Mr chairir. The committee met on August 14th. the subcommittee adopted the report on the acts of the 2025
regular sessions specifically requiring new rulemaking and filed one report of the executive subcommittee concerning its review and approval of an emergency rule. The subcommittee received and filed quarterly reports from the department of Corrections and the postrison transferser board and the subcommittee received agency updates on outstanding rulemaking from the 2023 regular session in all rules were reviewed and approved and noted in the report. Mr Chair, I move for adoption of this report right
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
18:01
have a motion. I have a second in discussion on the motion see none all in favor sayy aye and he opposed ayes have it. Item2 under F Representative
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
18:18
beatty you're recognized . Thank you Mr Chairman. the charitable penal andrectional Institutions sub subcommittee met on July10th of 2025. the subcommittee reviewed and her testimony regarding the following items the Arkansasublic deffenders
Commission June 25 final monthly report investigated the prisoner's escape from the north central unit and the department of Corrections discussed policies and protocols regarding prison security. the subcommittee also met on August 11th of 25 her testimony regarding the following items an update from the Arkansas Statelice regarding the investigation of the escape from the north central unit and an update from the department of Corrections regarding the prisoner escape and discuss the current population counts and
inmate deaths I move for the adoption of this report
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
19:07
right I have a motion. I have a second. any discussion on the motion? see none all in favor
sayy Ie any opposed ayes have it right, item4 Senator Irvin if you would re
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
19:22
not press your button there we go you're recognized thank you Mrir. the game and fish statelice subcommittee met
on Tuesday July8,2025 at 10:30 a.m. in mac room A the subcommittee heard from the Arkansas State Police and Arkansas Game and Fish Commission regarding updates on
the agencies as well as plans for the year the subcommittee then also met again on Thursday, August 14 at p.m. in mac room A. the subcommittee heard a brief overview of the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission from director Doughonerock and introduced the new law enforcement head which is lieutenant Colonel Joe Williams. The subcommittee also heard an overview of Arkansas Stateli's involvement in community outreach and received updates on the devil's den homicide case from the Arkansas
Statelice. just personal note I think it's very important that we keep the family and these little girls in our prayers I move adoption of the report thank you senator. I have a motion.
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
20:20
I have a second. any discussion see none all in favor sayy aye thank you guys have
it and I think senator if you
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
20:33
have a second motion you're recognized thank you Mr Chair. as chair of the subcommittee
on ALC Game and Fish and Statelice subbcommittee. I want to make a motion. I move that we authorize the game and fish state police subcommittee to undertake a study regarding the emergency warning system and response in the state related to floods and to report the subcommittee's findings and recommendations to the full legislative council and to allow the subcommittee to meet outside the regular ALC meeting week. thank you senator. I have a motion. I
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
21:03
have a second. I have a second in discussion on this motion
see none all in favor say aye and you post . All right, Senator Irvi, thank you for your work on that all right moving along to item
Senator Dan Sullivan
Unverified
21:25
ive higher education Senatorulllivan. you're recognized thank you Mr chair of the higher edd subcommittee met on Wednesday September 13,2025. the subcommittee received the annual certification of adequate funds for the fiscal year 2425 report as required by Act662109.
in addition the subcommittee heard testimony from the Arkansas division of higher edd concerning one the return on investment impacts on productivity formula the student graduate outcomes in online versus inperson education higher education accreditation the subcommittee also received public comments on these topics Mr Chair, I move for adoption of this report thank you senator. I have a motion I have a second. any discussion
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
22:07
on the motion? seeing none all in favor say aye
any opposed ayes have it. OK item seres representative Bentley you are recognized
Representative Mary Bentley
Unverified
22:22
thank you chairman On Monday the hospital medicaid andvelopment dissil sudies subcommittee met to adoptpresentativeottt's ISp for 2025. the subcommittee also heard an update from DHS concerning the division of childrenldren and Family Services and reimbursement rates under the Living Choices Assisted Living waiver. in addition the subcommittee adopted a motion to authorize BLR to begin negotiating a contract with the Georgia Center
for Opportunities to provide audit services related to the study assigned to the subcommittee by Act 145 of2025 concerning workforce and social services reform and just a little addition to that Utah over a decade investigated in a deep root analysis of their workforce system as well as social services since they've implemented these necessary changes they now have one of the highest labor participation rates in the nation and have been at the top of rich states poor states for over a decade. Currently Utah's laborbo participation rate is68.3.
Arkansas on the on the other hand has one of the lowest participation rates laborbo petition rates in the nation at58.3. I believe that we need a deep audit of our outcome of social services and workforce improve our rates as well and with that I move for adoption of the report all
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
23:33
right thank youpresentative. we have a motion do we have a second? have a second any discussion on the motion? See none all in favor say ayeok going to item 8 Representative gonzalez you're recognized thank you Mr
Chair
Unverified
23:48
chairir. lottery oversight committee met Tuesday, reviewed Learfield contract and her testimony of the proposed fiscal year 2026 budget and a report from the director on move adoption of the report all
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
24:00
right, I have a motion. I have a second in discussion of the motion see none all in favor sayy aye and a post I's have it all right item 10 occupational licensing review senator wallace
Senator Dave Wallace
Unverified
24:19
you re chest thank you Mrir the occupational licensing review subcommittee met
on Monday and on Thursday and received reports from various occupational authorization entities androupix. I move adoption of this report right, I have a motion. I have a second. any discussion on
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
24:37
this? see none all in favor say aye and you post ayes have it ok item
number 11, Senator Dismayne you're recognized to give the peer report.
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
24:50
thank you Mr Chairman. the peer subcommittee met on Tuesday August 12th the subcommittee received reports reviewed requests and approved the following various temporary appropriation American rescue plan and preparation infrastructure investment and jobs actct appropriation in the restricted reserve transfer funds. I move for adoption of the report OK I have a motion I have a second
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
25:08
in discussion uhpresentative Collins discussion on the motion you're recognized would it be possible to pull
Representative Andrew Collins
Unverified
25:17
out a4 for a separate boat on this?
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
25:21
Is that a motion if it needs to be ok. I have a substitute motion to pull item you said what was the item against A4 A4 is
Representative Ryan A. Rose
Unverified
25:34
that to include adoption of the report I guess that's the pass the report without a4 and then
Representative Andrew Collins
Unverified
25:39
have a separate boat on A4. OK members we have
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
25:43
a substitute motion to pull that to adopt the report without exception all right do I have a second on the motion?
have a second. any discussion on this motion? Representative bentley you're recognized for discussion I think just
Representative Mary Bentley
Unverified
26:00
this here's says $20,000 has been sent in by constituents across the state to be a part of this monument I've see no reason why not we don't want these people that if it's sent money to the secretary's secretary of state's office for this monuments this money that we've received in for them to be implemented where by law it was sent to go so I don't see any reason to pull this out of the motion thank you. thank youpresentative Senator
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
26:24
Hammer you recognized thank you and maybe just I might double up on what she said and that is the funds that we're talking about in correct me if I'm wrong, re represent Bentley nodded at me one way or the other. these funds have come from citizens they have not come from taxpayer dollars and there's no rational reason to stop the process from going through to honor what the taxpayers of Arkansas have given out of their own pocket in order to make this happen. So, Id just appreciate voting this down and let's let it get out of here so that we can get the vendors paid. Thanks thank
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
26:56
you senatorpresentative beatty you're recognized thank you Mr chairir. I just want to echo the comments of
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
27:01
the previous two members and say we've had an opportunity, when we voted on this legislation to approve the monument and it passed its money's come from private taxpayers in the state it's a waste of our time to take up this motion to ask you all to vote no all right thank you Representative
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
27:17
members we're now going to take up the substitute motion
to approve the report with the exception of that one item so with that what's the will of the committee
all in favor say aye any opposed knows habit all right back to the underlying motion I have a motion to adopt the report. Do I have a second? I have a second. any discussion see none all in favor sayy aye any post ayes have it item 12 Senator Johnson for the review report
Speaker 98
28:00
the review subcommittee met on Tuesday and reviewed the methods of finance discretionary grants to agency ratifications RfQ approval requests and services contracts the cochairers also provided the July2025 emergency action report to the subcommittee this morning staff from the department of Education and AU requested that contract number one under instate contracts on page 47 of the report packet be between Arkansas State University and the
communications group be pulled from consideration all items were reviewed with the exception of a constructionrelated contract number one, Department of Correctionsmcclellan consulting engineers was held until legislative council for further discussion at this time I request the Department of Corrections staff to come to the table to answer and have a discussion OK members I'm gonna ask the department of corrections to
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
28:56
come to the table to speak to this I know we have members in
the queueenator Rri I'm coming to you first. do you have a question thank you Mr chairir and if you would gentlemen recognize yourself for the record
Speaker 103
29:17
and stand by for questions Chad Brown, CFfo Department oforrections. Wadehodge
Eddie Powell
Unverified
29:23
Department oforrections. Andie Powells assistant director Department
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
29:26
oforrectionsenich you're recognized thank you Mr chairir. we had
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
29:28
some members and subcommittee that asked
some questions and with the answers I ask that be held for Friday for the full council and appreciate Chairman Blake Johnson ok in that courtesy as we do from time to time and I I did get a contact from Mr Chad Brown we had a good conversation and then he followed up yesterday with some other information so I appreciate that and to me this is a standard on call one year extension
the department of Corrections has been happy with Mcclellan with their work and I don't have a problem with that told Mr Brown that but I wanted to hold this for clarity and transparency with the questions that came up we've had many citizens I represent all the parts of 10 counties and some that's man I don't have ranklin County where the proposed prison is but I'm in the vicinity but I've had people far away from that that it
expressed concerns to me so we have some citizens that are that are very concerned and they've lost some faith in state government because of the the lack of transparency in a way things don't that's not a slide it department of corrections directly and it's sure non slight Mr Brown as I told him I appreciate his answers and I'm gonna quote one because he was correct when he was first asked and this is how thecraic Gazette said talking
about this contract we use this regular upkeep needs that arise within the department we have 28 facilities around the state so these contracts really geared that's a little bit of an exception really geared could be different towards the facilities and those needs that we have so when it comes to the new prison I just can't answer that if that need comes up we'll address it when the need comes up but is right now the needs on these own calls and this own call for 28
facilities that have needs to be addressed as Mr Brown and I talked about that's that's what he expressed he was later asked and many times we ask questions to get an answer that we want to hear and that's kind of what happened at the end of the committee and and I think I'll let Mr. Brown speak to it but I just for transparency while I I understand you tell me I'm wrong Mr. Brown if I am. they have needs for this
contract that our528 the other 28 facilities if the department of correction decides to use Mcclellan in other ways that might be part of work on a Franklin County prison site that's the department oforrections that's not Mr Brown's sole purview you correct me if I'm wrong so I don't have a problem with the contract but because of questions we're asked and answers were again initially given correctly in and not
saying all of his answers weren't correctly this contract can be used far from Franklin County stuff if if they decide to am I right with that Mr. Brown? Yes sir.
Speaker 108
32:54
I would say you're correct with that answer.
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
33:03
hold on the deal just for discussion thank you thank you senator Rice Senator Love you're
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
33:09
recognized thank you Mr She I think that I
Senator Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
33:15
think Senator Rice kind of covered what I was going to cover because I would just wanted to make sure that Mr Brown had a chance to kind of correct some of the testimony we did have conversation. I appreciate you Mr. Brown. in regards to if this if this I did and I asked a question in regards to if this contract was being used by used for the Franklin County prison or we'll be able to be used in at that time I think you said that there was not an intention
to be used but if you could clarify the information that you provided me I wouldu I would just like to
Speaker 103
33:53
put it in the testimony so just to kind of clear some of this up as the CFO of a department of this size I pay bills and my staff pays bills so things that take place within the department. sometimes we have invoices come our way we have to pay those invoices like I've mentioned previously my intent of our oncall contracts is not for the use of the new facility
however if that need arises we will address it at that point in time we currently have several wastewater projects for this on call specifically that we need to continue so as of right now is my intent to use our on call for the new facility? No it's not as the CFfo but if that need arises and leadership comes back and says how can we get things done and those are the conversations that we have so at
Senator Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
34:45
this current time is there any part of this contract being
used for the Franklin County? prison so this
Speaker 103
34:53
contract is not being used for the design nor the construction of this prison. Those have gone through therfp process or in a in a waiting period what we have done is we have drilled wells or tested wells I'm not a construction guy so I don't know the correct terminology and our on call went out and found a company called Gilbert's Drilling they're just a drilling company
McClean was out there with him and we got charged their time like I said as the CFO I had no idea McCelan was out there with him and we were going to get charged time so my testimony Tuesday was incorrect and I would like to correct that and I appreciate that senator at the time I didn't know yesterday I found we had an invoice come in for around4,500 dollars four times spent through Mcclellan as they oversaw the drilling on the property we need to pay that invoice
Mcclellan is a great vendor for us. they're probably one of our best and easiest to work with. McClelllin has done nothing wrong. they're doing exactly what they've been asked to do so for me that's what has taken place I just wanted to clear that up for the committee OK
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
36:06
I appreciate it thank you Mr chairir you thank you senator Senator Stubblefield
Speaker 116
36:14
you recognize Thank thank you Mr chairman gentlemen I have a question
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
36:20
why just two days ago I was told by a board member of the Arkansas Board of Corrections that they had found that they had water for that location there in Franklin County and I said where did you get the water and he said well we're getting it from South Franklin County Waterjus association so I immediately knowing the guy that runs that called him and he said that's an absolute lie he said that's not false we told them we cannot furnish water so I called the mayor of Ozark she
said nobody has called her in three months so the two wells that hard rock drilling did fromina I called them because I know those guys and they told me that the 200 ft wells I think we paid them50,000 dollars for drilling7,000 dollars an hour my granddad drilled wells for 50 years he would have made a year's salary on or less he said we had two gallons per minute from one well a 200 ft
well,11 gallons per minute for another 200 ft well and then you guys put out or veneer puts out 16 gallons and another number we're getting so much misinformation that I would like to know why you cau why you guys can't get your facts straight senator if you'll suspend for
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
37:42
a second who did I hear a point of
order p re s ent ative beatty if you'll hit your microphone let's hear your point of order.
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
37:56
Could the senator speak on on on the subject that we're on now we're not going to relitigate the prison in this committee we're talking about a contract through a committee and could we stay on task with that because this will take all day
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
38:07
right Representative beatty, thank you for your point of order.
Senator Stubblefield, thank you. I'm I'm granting privilege if you would speak to if you would speak to the contract or or finish your question this is a part of the contract Well I'm I'm gonna let you I'm gonna
let you finish sir. if you would if you would go ahead and finish.
Speaker 125
38:27
I'm finished I just asked him the last
Representative Ryan A. Rose
Unverified
38:30
question all right Mr. Brown if you would speak to that question briefly Mr Chair if it's OKok I'm gonna
Speaker 127
38:39
let Chief Hodge address that Mr. Hodge thank you Mr Chairman Senator Stublefield, the information I have about the water that came from the test wells comes from Vanner I don't know about another other numbers that that you mentioned. I'm not familiar with those Senator Sovfield if you would
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
38:58
get with them offline maybe to
to get the rest of your questions answered. thank
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
39:10
you p re s ent ative wooten you're recognized thank you Mr Chairman Mr Brown can you tell us how much is designated for the ranklin County institution development out of this contract 000 none none there
in the media the reference is being made to a new prison in the Franklin County observation is being lock negle or left out is there a change of feeling regarding this institution in my constituents like the previous comment they have very they have great concern about the cost of the institution is
presently presented but in the media it gives the impression that it's changed from the specific location to being a new prison somewhere who knows
where but is is that the positioning of the board of correction of the departmentspresentative wooten, I'm, I'm gonna ask that I've
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
40:22
already heard a point of order. I'm not going to recognize a point of order but speak deliberately to the contract if
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
40:32
you will please. does the contract address the ranklin County location in any form shape or form. No sir, other than what
Speaker 105
40:40
I mentioned earlier in my previous testimony and that was what that
Speaker 103
40:43
was I pay bills as a CFfo I watched the money of the department, the intent of this contract in my mind is not for the new facility we have other projects in the pipe I want to use this contract for those other projects it's something with that new facility arises, I
addressed that at that time but for current I need these projects is
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
41:07
one of the projects the situation is it's Cummins relative to 14 years of neglect sir OK thank you thank you Mr Chairman thank you members I'm I'm
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
41:18
about to go to Senator Irvin. I have several in the queue. I'm trying to be very fair and deliberate. I'm gonna ask the comments stick to the contract and if they're not, I would ask that you get with the department
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
41:33
offline. Senator Irvin you're recognized thank you Mrir just quickly do we have do you
work this contract in the overarching capacity of like a contract manager for a larger project because sometimes like if you have an overarching larger project that's handled by a contract manager then engineering would fall this contract would fall under that contract manager the reason I'm
asking is because generally when we work with a contract manager the individual subcontractors within all fall under that one contract manager whose job and duty is to manage the project in its entirety to eliminate you know you having to keep up with all these smaller subcontractors I was just try I'm trying to understand this contract and the capacity of any type of work we do and if you employ contract manager in addition to
engineering this engineering contract would ever this contract move underneath like a contract manager I would say our contract manager for the department
Speaker 103
42:41
in this and I would like to introduce everybody in the committee to our new construction director for the department of Corrections Mr Eddie Powell. I'm hoping he can take some of the attention off me in the future and I won't have to come up here so Mr Powell but he he would be our project manager when it comes to our on call contracts so him and his staff handle all of our on calls and do you mind
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
43:06
if I follow up then since he follow up do you do you mind just introducing yourself and tell us what your background is or your experience because I I'm a little familiar. I have a have a have a a child who has master's instruction Man so I know the value of it. so do you mind do you mind Mr Chair, since he's already introduced him I'd love to
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
43:23
hear you recognize but I would ask please be brief brief yeah be brief thank you members
Eddie Powell
Unverified
43:30
my name is Eddie Powell. I'm the assistant director of the new director over the construction and maintenance division. I've been
with the DLC about 18 years. I've been the budget administrator and I've been through accounting. I've also done 9 years in the security field so I have a good understanding of how the ss the whole department operates before that I have 8 years in construction and as a construction supervisor and manager on projects and maintenance projects good so you you're following along what
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
43:56
I'm talking about perfect. OK thank you so much that thank you thank you senator and based on
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
44:02
the questions and comments I think you're about to have a bunch of people call you
like Senator Stubblefield andpresentative Woootten and probably a few others. So get ready for that senator hammer is this on the contract? you're
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
44:17
recognized thank you. I just want to put a bow on ask you on specific question that is based on the contract amount that we're talking about based on the projects that you have ongoing and based on the projects that you anticipate that you're gonna have to deal with set aside the ranklin Franklin jail these funds will be sufficient
to take care of what you have scheduled right now what's in the works right now and and be able to let you keep doing business if we get it out of here. Is that is that a fair statement? please
Speaker 145
44:51
turn your mic on senator yes sir, prettyty much it is if we ever need more authority on a
Speaker 103
44:56
contract we come back before you guys and get that authority but right now we we work with what we have and when we have things come up we come back and ask for
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
45:04
that authority. I think it would be in everybody's best interest then if you're asked to do anything outside of what's
already scheduled and if it's attached to the ranklin that you would come and specifically state that amount amount out in public. I think that would help relationships in the future. Thank you thank you Senator hammerpresentativeladyman
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
45:22
is this a question on the contract OK let's on again to be I'll try Mr.
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
45:28
Powell, I think you qualified the answer to this question may be more of a statement than a question but there seems to be a lot of confusion in what kind of
contract this is and what kind of contract would be used to build a prison and as senator Irvin talked about that's a like building a prison that's a general contractor you got all these subcontractors that work under the general. but if I understand it correctly and McClellan engineering is a great firm they've been around a long time. I did business with them 25 years ago and they they have multifunctional engineering so they can cover civil mechanical electrical whatever you need is that correct? just
yes sir that is correct so what you have here is a contract with McClean, an engineering firm you could stri engineering you put accounting or IT or whatever into that contract but it's a on call so they have quoted you an hourly rateid or a time materials raid or whatever and if you need that service and it could be accounting or it could be IT or anything else. If you need engineering service you call them and they turn they pay you an
hourly rate has no connection to the project or it may not have any connection to the project that they go to work on in this case they were drilling wells you needed engineering oversight to make sure that that driller did the right thing that he followed dotted I's crossed the ts did what you wanted this engineering firm understand your requirements so they just went out to be an oversight but they were not a part of the contract to drill the well they were a general service engineering to provide you that service
. I hope that clarifies some of the questions am I
Eddie Powell
Unverified
47:17
correct in that? Yes sir there are a lot of our regulatory we use them for regulatory requirements because you know we don't have the engineers on staff to be able to like at our wastewater so that's exactly right they they have to go out and tell the drillers where to drill through the geo surveys they do it was just an oversight at the driller that it wasn't necessarily directed at the Franklin County project they were just overseeing the drillers at the time and when you say that you
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
47:41
might have to use them again that's just an on call thing
another contract might come up you need an engineer for a couple of hours you call him. so it's not directly related to the prison contract is that
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
47:57
correct that is correct yes sir thank you thank you richard lady senator Stubblefield coming back to
Speaker 156
48:07
you question on the contract there there we go
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
48:09
sir you're on these contracts are they not to exceed bids contracts and are you taking bids on all these?
Eddie Powell
Unverified
48:18
no sir on the on call we don't have to we don't conduct any bids or three quotes or anything we can call them out on the project at our discretion up to our authorization to spend. but can they exceed their
Speaker 159
48:30
whatever they initially tell you yes sir if you tell me if they give us a
Eddie Powell
Unverified
48:37
quote and then later they say it costs more and they come back they can only exceed to the amount of the authorization that were allowed on the contract so they we can do it we can they come out and they see something
like a hidden damage sort of they come out and it's a lot more damage than we think on a roof or something like that they could have reasonably estimated of course and then come back with a with this gonna take more time on site they could of course bill us for that time also so basically they just bill us for the time they're there it's just an hourly
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
49:10
rate thank you chairman so just to summarize they're on call meaning they get called if there's an emergency not to exceed the amount
set and authorized in in this specific contract correct sir we can't go
Speaker 98
49:20
over the authorization allow. thank you Senator Johnson . Blake Johnson you're recognized gentlemen and thank you chair for the discussion. if there's no other no other discussion Mr Chair, I moved to review the Department of Corrections contract with Mcelllanie consulting Engineers that was previously held and to remove the ASU contract with the communications group from consideration and adopt the review subcommittee report. All right, I have a motion. I have second in discussion
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
49:53
miraculously I see none right all in favor say aye any opposed ayes have it thank you all right
moving to item 13 state insurance programme oversight. I think Senator Hickey are you giving that report? yes sir Mrir thank
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
50:11
you senator. All right the state insurance programme oversight subcommittee met on Wednesday. The subcommittee approved the employee benefitfits division pharmacy formulary and medical drug recommendations in the 2026 rate schedule for the public
school and state employees health insurance. the subcommittee reviewed Ebd contracts including connect connect your Care incorporated HMO andartners incorporated in United Healthcare the subcommittee encouraged Ebd to make preparation to put the medicare advantage prescription drug contract out for bid this year so that we the legislature will have time to look at it. The subcommittee approved the state captivesurance programme items including University of Arkansas athletics premiums and deductibles and the lead
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
50:54
insurance policy. uh, Mr Chair, I move for adoption of the report. Thank you Senator. I have a motion do I have a second? I have
a second any discussion so you know discussion all in favor say aye in your post let's have
Representative Les Warren
Unverified
51:11
it item 14presentative warren you're recognized thank you Mr chairman the personnel subcommittee met on Wednesday August 13th and reviewed the requests and reports listed as items one through 15. no items were
held. I'm glad to answer any questions and move to
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
51:31
adopt the report. right members have a motion to have a second have a second any discussion see no discussion all in favor sayy aye he post ayes have it OK members going over to item G reports from interim special committees none going to itemh please look through those I know that we do have a presentation from the insurance
commissioner and members I'm going to ask that we hear this report very briefly. there may be some questions but I asked that they they be brief for sake of time so if you look through there if you see any other things that you want to ask questions on please let me know otherwise we're going to move to item four motion to file is reviewed the teacher retirement system report? Do I have a motion have a motion to have a second any discussion see none all in
favor sayy aye right in your post eyes have it all right department or excuse me item5 Department of Commerce insurance department if they would come to the table present that report briefly and we'll take any questions on thatembers just so you are aware this is a report that was scheduled to give to be given monthly regarding the Pbm situation or
rule 128. so I'm gonna ask them to give that report expeditiously if you would
Speaker 167
53:07
recognize yourself for the record. Good morning Daniel Holland, Pbm general counsel at AId the august 8th rule 128 report so we've from the as you know there were two
Speaker 168
53:19
rounds of data reporting under rule 128 that first round was completed in January of this year the second round was completed July31st so a couple
of weeks ago on that first round as you know there were654 deficient plans meaning that was654 plans reporting reimbursements below 100% of NADA we've issued notices to cure and corrective action plans to roughly half of those and the other half they they told us that there were data issues there was some confusion on the reporting
we're gonna audit those plans and and verify their numbers all of this is in an effort to figure out exactly how many plans are paying below NADac on average so that we can minimize the cost impact of a of a cost to dispense. for the the second round of data like I said we got that in a couple of weeks ago we're going through it now we're hoping to see some improvement especially from
those654 deficient plans and we're hoping to see overall improvements since this data is going to show us what happened after the passage of Rule 128 and again this isn't an effort to only institute a cost to dispense where it's absolutely necessary . it'll take us about30 days to get through the the data that we received a couple weeks ago by then we should kind of have a a better idea of how many plans we're actually looking at to implement a a possible cost to dispense
so we'll have some more accurate data about potential cost impacts at that point. yeah that's where
Speaker 166
55:06
we are with the rule 128 right now. happy to answer any questions OK, I see we
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
55:14
have questions again we're coming up on an hour just want to be mindful of people's time so senatorhammer come to you for a question thank you Mr Chair I'll be short
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
55:24
and sweet. can you tell me I'm looking at the pages aren't numbered so it's where it deals with the penalties that have been
assessed. can you tell me the dollar amount of penalties that have been assessed against the Pbms that are
Speaker 167
55:44
violating Rull128. so we haven't assessed penalties necessarily pursuant to Rule 128. the we've assessed penalties for below NADac
Speaker 168
55:52
reimbursements the the data that we get pursuant to rule 128 is about averages. We don't see claim level data from
that report. so the claimle data that we would use to assess a penalty for a below net reimbursement comes from pharmacy complaints that are submitted to us it's the same idea but the rule 128 data is is more about figuring out where and how to implement a cost to dispense as opposed to issuing enforcement actions to assess a penalty. and you can get this to me
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
56:30
as I'd like to know how many dollars
have been assessed and how many dollarss have actually been collected against the Pbm's that that have been paying under NAacC please if you get that for me yes sir I'll get that
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
56:45
to you thank you for sure thank you senator going to RepresentativeRose and members we already have several in the queue so be my full time. Thank you Representative rose
Representative Ryan A. Rose
Unverified
56:54
you're recognized. thank you Mr Chair over here appreciate
your time thank you for your testimony this morning just briefly when the penalties are being assessed or determined I'm just looking at the last
one that's listed here from from Navidus Health Solutions says that there were violations from early 2025. are you are you guys determining and then taking into account whether these violations are incidental or intentional and does that play a role in how the penalties are assessed It plays some role but at this
Speaker 168
57:39
has issued multiple bulletins over several years that we're expecting reimbursements at least at NADac and we're going to penalize if those reimbursements fall below at this point if if we see complaint that has reimbursements with belowADac violations even if it was an accident, even if it was you know s a system issue or something like that we're still assessing a penalty at this point there's not a ton of leeway when it comes to below
Representative Ryan A. Rose
Unverified
58:09
NADAC reimbursement. well and I didn't I didn't want to make the assumption but kind of my assumption is that everybody in this arena should know but I just kind of wanted to make the point that it would seem that if these violations are happening they know what they're doingre OK thank
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
58:28
you thank you Mr Chair. thank you uhpresentativeladyman you're recognized
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
58:34
thank you Mr Chairman. rule 128 was passed back in December and you're you're talking
about high numbers of violations here so you know these small businesses I've got like6 mom and pop pharmacies in my district and I mean they're struggling every day and to them 8 months we're in august already they see no improvement that's what they tell me anyway so I mean can you not speed up this process you know back when I would do projects and the guy came in and wasn't doing anything he said well put up some tents and lights and work nights.
so can you guys work nights? can you move this a little quicker? what is your plan to speed this process up and correct this problem that we know is out there and we're not putting any pressure on these folks and as I think RepresentativeRowe said it almost looks like they know what they're doing here that's just my opinion. but what are you doing to speed this process up and what's your timeline to fix these problems so we're gonna we we've we've actually moved
Speaker 169
59:37
through the data that we received a couple
Speaker 168
59:42
of weeks ago much faster than we did the first
Speaker 167
59:46
round. we've got a full team in place now thanks to the the the budget that that
Speaker 168
59:51
you guys have given us so we're going to be able to make a faster assessment this time I expect that we'll be finished with our assessment of what we've received in July within the next30 days and at that point we'll have a almost accurate idea of every single plan that we're going to
have to look at. there will be because we're talking about you know,3500 plans there will be some who have some some issue with the data maybe they had a different interpretation of what we were asking for so at that point we will have to go back and forth with probably several plans but overall we're going to be able to to finish our assessment of this data much faster than we did the first time because we have this team in place and we've also done it before so we get a little bit faster just
because we have that experience but we're we're very much we're working very hard to complete this as quick as we can. I know the situation with the pharmacies that's also why we're doing so many enforcement actions and limited scope exams and individual audits based on the the first round of reporting so we're we're doing as much as we can to address these issues and enforce Arkansas law.
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
1:01:15
hammer asked about thank you sir. penalties and you haven't assessed any and you've got a big volume of data and a lot of number a lot of people involved but if you catch two of the big fish, the other fish are gonna pay attention. So I would suggest that you go after the main violator if you can identify that and and take an action that a penalty that might get a reaction from the other folks. So I I appreciate your answers sir thank you coachhier if
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:01:42
you're recognized to follow up on that just so I'm
clear have any Pbms been fined yet for violating state law? do you know how
Speaker 167
1:01:56
many and how much don't I can't tell you how much right now I didn't bring that with me but I can get that to you I can get I can
get you put that together and get it to staff so and
one of the things that'd also like to ask is so violating state law would be paying below NADA, right? but there's another part of that and that's a fair and reasonable cost to dispense.
I mean do you look at both sides of that equation when you decide on whether
Speaker 167
1:02:21
or not to find a pbm for violating that law. The penalties that we've assessed so far on this topic have
Speaker 168
1:02:27
been about NADA until we define fair and reasonable where we're somewhat limited toADA you know a pbM is gonna say well you know we we have a disp p ens ing fee in our contract it's30 cents it's50 cents we think that's fair and reasonable Un until that fair and reasonable
Speaker 167
1:02:46
category is determined. we haven't assessed any penalties is
that fair and reasonable to them is that what I'm seeing where the cost to dispense is ranging from40 cents to dollar40 cents that's correct that's that's correct if you could just get that information to staff we'll get it sent out to the committee members thank
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:03:06
you thank you cochair . OK members we have more in the queue and ask you to be short and sweetener Wallace coming to you ' m over here to your right. thank you Mr Chair.
Senator Dave Wallace
Unverified
1:03:19
you know this body gave a lot of thought to this matter when we created this law, this rule we've got small town pharmacies on life support. we've got small towns that are not going to have pharmacies if we don't
do something how many penalties have we assessed have we acted on with this so that I think that would be the information that
Speaker 167
1:03:42
I'm going to gather and and send to the committee I'll be sure
Speaker 185
1:03:46
to to put all of that in there and I'll
I'll get you know historic data from Aidd so it'll kind of give you a complete
Senator Dave Wallace
Unverified
1:03:55
picture of that move quickly. please move quickly thank you sir thank you Mr chairir thank
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:04:00
you Senator hammer you said you had a really short question I want
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:04:06
to broaden the the landscape a little bit and it and it is about independence but it's also about Walmart, Walgreen heartarts it's about all the other providers that have pharmacy you know involved in their business model. So I want to make sure we
we we expand the net but the the $1000 penalty on Rx and opptimum was that the maximum that you could charge them or what's the max that you can hit them
Speaker 167
1:04:31
with the max for a below NAac violation is5,000 dollars. so we can charge up to why are we not hitting them with the max well our our intention is to move up to5000 as we see a pattern we there there was a lot of debate about that do you start right at5000? do you start lower
Speaker 168
1:04:52
and then increase that amount if there's a pattern from that particular pbm we've kind of been a
Speaker 167
1:04:59
little bit scattered as to how we've assessed those penalties so when I started I'm trying to like I'll start
Speaker 168
1:05:04
at 1000 then when I see it again we'll go up from there and if I start seeing a bigger pattern we'll look at the license for that pbm and ultimately pull it if we need to. OK
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:05:15
then then I want to make this statement as a legislator to the agency these companies are paying millions and millions in
attorney fees to fight the laws that we have passed as legislators I would like the agency to quit pussyfooting around with them fair and reasonable' has been a discussion for way too long and I'd like and just give you from this legislator's point of view , don't start at the bottom and work up. Start at the top and don't move from the top because if they can spend the millions of dollars that they're spending fighting this legislative body and our governor then we don't need to cut them any slack for the benefit of not only
independence but Walgreens, Walmart, harp's all of them it's time for us to make a statement and I just appreciate. Thank you Mr Char
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:06:04
for latitude. thank you senator for the short question. uhpresentative Woootton.
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
1:06:09
thank you Mr Chairman. I'll make it short. thank you fair and reasonable is one thing but fair and reasonable to the local pharmacists that the telling me that the PB pmBs or
pbms are at fault and they're not seeing the action that they need to see in order for them to avoid doing that so do you think your process is addressing all the issues quick enough fast enough I would
Speaker 167
1:06:46
like to be faster with rule 128 implementation but again because of the amount
of data we're we we truly are going as fast
Speaker 168
1:06:57
as we can when you you know some states when they look at a cost to dispense they'll go across the board you know they'll say all right 1050 every plan no matter what no exception. that that does have a tremendous cost impact but that's a lot faster than the way that we're doing it in Arkansas we've decided an AID has decided instead of doing that and having a relatively large cost impact we're gonna we're gonna take the the more difficult road and go plan by
plan so that we can truly limit the impact of a cost to dispense while also you know helping pharmacies and and truly enforcing Arkansas law. so I I certainly sympathize with what you're saying. I hear it pretty often. We are moving as fast as we can but with this amount of incoming data, it's very important that we're accurate in this assessment that we make this decision based on data that we receive and not just a more subjective idea of what we think it you know where
it should go. we very much want to make an informed decision on this so I hear your point and I I definitely understand why and we're moving as as
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
1:08:08
fast as we can. and and I just would admonish you to followenator Hammer's suggestions which I totally agree with. Something's got to be done it's got to be done faster. thank you thank you Mr like you Senator hickey coming to you
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
1:08:29
thank you chairir. I wanna, I want to kind of go another way with this fee that you're doing because I'm gonna tell you right now whenever we had looked at this way back there you know and you correct me if I'm wrong a lot of the parts that were under what cost were according to NADA were maybe a third of a cent or a penny or things like that. So I believe at that particular time that the thought was that the law read up to the5,000 dollars
and the thing was is we wanted to be fair to them also and know that ok all of this has just popped up and yes you may have had a rounding error with your computer or whatever but that was the reason that you all were charging less money on the front end was trying to be fair so what you're trying to say now is is that at some point here they're going to have enough time to have gotten all that right but wasn't that your initial reason to do that and I believe that I had kind of
brought that up that I thought you know if we're gonna talk about fair, let's make sure that we're being fair according to our law, you know, don't want to charge somebody5,000 dollars for you know, for them not understanding that they were a third of a sin or cent below where they should have been. Was that
Speaker 167
1:09:49
correct? yeah, I think so. so the there there was the issue of you know the fractional sense below NAdac where
Speaker 168
1:10:00
and we don't see that anymore since those enforcement actions were sent out. we haven't, I don't think we've seen a single fractional cent reimbursement and I think that the remainder of your question kind of goes to how we're assessing the penalty based on like the amount that it is below NAA. because it was a little bit scattered sometimes we would charge an extremely low fee but sometimes we go all the way to5000. there there wasn't a lot of certainty as to what the
consequence was for paying below NADA. I'm I'm trying to create that certainty so that everybody kind of knows like here starting now here's where we we start and if we see a pattern we're gonna go up all the way to the point of
Speaker 185
1:10:43
of possibly pulling or denying a license which is may I follow
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
1:10:47
up which is what I believe but you know we sit down here and we listen to people saying well we should've started off charging5,000 dollars I think that there was a rhyme or reason to what you all were doingerally I think that you
know you're not charging5,000 dollars for a penny whenever this was first, you know, discovered or whatever. I think that was the correct thing for you all to do . So I just, I don't want us to sit down here and and you know, I understand this deal with the pbm like like a big political deal how people like to throw that out there and I don't have any love loss for any of them you know just business to me but I do believe that you know you all did correct the first way where you
you did back off the from the up to5000 to charge a lower amount that would be fair to them because if we're gonna talk fair and reasonable for the pharmacist you gotta talk fair and reasonable for the other side also. So I appreciate what you you all have done as far as trying to navigate through this and where you're at. Thank you, sir. thank you
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:11:52
thank you senator senator Irvin coming to you
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:11:56
thank you Mr Chair. thank you for being here and is it not part of the law that the
pharmacist can also appeal directly to the Pbms for resolution ok and I think we've had that previous testimony and it was requested at that time and agreed to that there would be in the report included the number of submissions that were solved through direct contact and direct resolution with the pBms and do you have that in your report because that was requested and agreed to be
information provided to us as to how many of the submissions then were also submitted directly for resolution to the PBms and how many of them were resolved in that form and fashion. I don't see that in your report do you have is that in the report and I'm just missing it no, I
Speaker 168
1:12:54
might, I might not follow. We wouldn't if when a pharmacy appeals a reimbursement directly with a pbM and doesn't file a complaint with Aidd we wouldn't have any
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:13:07
know that could I think in the discussion we talked about you asking on the front end when the submissions were being made complete directly to the insurance department that was part of the conversation that was supposed to happen in the process of that submission. in other words a little question that says have you submitted this complaint directly to the PBms for resolution and what is the result of that. I I
remember distinctly committee hearings where we instructed and asked the insurance department to do that because because to alleviate the amount of complaints that were being sent directly to the insurance department and y'all were struggling with with maintaining that and so I specifically remember this legislature requesting that and then requesting that information and that data on the direct submissions to the PBms and then
the percentage of those being resolved directly without the interaction or involvement of the insurance department. so you've not done that is this under rule
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:14:22
ability under rule 128 it's part of the law that they should first submit the complaint for resolution directly with the pbm it's in the law and then they're not required to go to the PbM
first well I understand that but I think it was part of the discussion that this legislature said to eliminate all of the complaints coming and y'all having to process them and that discussion was had by this this general assembly and directed to the insurance department to do that so again I take that back. I mean there are other people requesting information I have the ability to request that information from the insurance department so I would appreciate
if you could get that information for
Speaker 167
1:15:14
me mean can well, OK, I'll I'll look back and and try to track that down. I I know that well
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:15:28
for you. Well it was very distinct very distinct conversation that occurred with this legislature in a committee hearing about this issue . and so if you're telling me that
the insurance department did not follow the recommendations of the general assembly. I need to know that and so and I appreciate the latitude but it's important information to have in the report. The the reason why we had those discussions was to try to alleviate the amount of work that was being done at the level of the insurance department on these complaints to try to get them resolved
directly first and foremost and then if they can't be resolved directly with the pbms then to to bring them to the the insurance department. it was it was a way to have a greater level of efficiency and alleviate all the workload from the department so I I will stop but that's very important information and I will visit with you offline about that. thank you. thank you senator Senator des manger recognize I just want to try to create
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
1:16:42
some clarity for myself and the conversation that we're having right now because we're I think we're kind of commingling two things together that are kind of related but not really related. so as far as the NADAc enforcement and making sure that pbms are paying above NAA per state law that is its own train track we're we're trying to make sure that that happens you're gonna penalize when you need technically it's got nothing to do with 128 technically it does in the sense because if you find out that there's been underpayments you want to make sure that you bring those back
to right so that it is part of the consideration when you determine fair and reasonable and so when we're talking about moving expeditiously through Rule 128 and can't say how much I appreciate you saying we're going to get it right. because when we talk about moving through 128 who that impacts is not the PBms at the end of the day rule 128 is going to impact the patient and the payer and their relationship if we talk about a
fee to dispense you can correct me if I'm wrong but the the pbm isn't going to pay a dispensing fee the insurance plan or you know however the implan is written the patient will pay the dispensing fee and so it is critical that we get that right because we may right size things for the pharmacist and then turn around and create a punitive effect on the patient. and their insurance policies and their premiums and so it has to be done right and so we can be upset with Pbms about what's happening you're
taking your action as far as the state laws as it's related to NADAC for one of the first times in several years so it applaud you for doing that but I just for the members if I tell me if I'm wrong but rule 128 is not about NADAC it is about ins you mean with the exception of let's make sure everyone's paying everything they're supposed to be first before we start talking about what it means for a dispensing fee and fair and reasonable. Is that fair or am I missing part of the conversation
Speaker 167
1:18:47
no that is that is fair we and like I said we we definitely want to get it right and we definitely want to
Speaker 168
1:18:55
place the cost to dispense where it needs to be and not impose that where it does not need to be that that is absolutely what we're trying to do but when we say
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
1:19:05
we're going let's just say we did a 10 dollars50 cents dispensing fee. who will pay that dispensing fee it
Speaker 168
1:19:13
will certainly have a cost impact on Arkansas residents which is why we're we're doing
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
1:19:18
what we're doing right but will it have an impact on pbms will a dispensing fee have an
Speaker 168
1:19:27
the pbm is gonna you know they'll actually they're they're the the ones in between the patient and the plan. So the pbm is initially going to to make the payment what the pbm does with regarding its contract with the plan I I can't speak to what's gonna happen there and how they're going to share cost between those two entities but yeah mean I've heard some plans just
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
1:19:50
intend to pass that directly on to the customer if not have the customer pay the dispensing fee themselves to be able to keep the premiums from escalating for all members across the board so again it's a it's going to be I mean it's going to be important that it is done correctly by the right region and by everything else and if you know we can bring out the the pitchforks and whatever else we want to do as it relates to Pbms let's do that onAA but we need to be very careful when we're talking about the ultimate impact we're going to have on patients in the state of Arkansas and what they're going
to have to pay to have the prescriptions filled
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
1:20:29
thank you. right Senator Tucker you're recognized thank you Mr Chair. thank you Mr Holland for your work. I just want to follow up on Senator Irvin's line of questioning. the legislature can encourage pharmacists and Pbms to resolve their disputes privately it's almost like an alternative dispute resolution in a pharmacy context it's not a bad it's a it's a worthwhile policy but while the department can ask a pharmacist if they tried to
resolve it privately and failed when the pharmacist applies to the insurance department we can ask that question correct? yes we can ask that question at the at the same time if the pharmacist appeals directly to the Pbm and they resolve it privately then we're not ever really going to have that information because that's a private resolution between two nongovernmental entities. is that right? OK all right thank you right , Senator
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:21:18
Johnson, you're recognized before I go to you
I'll just keep in mind
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:21:27
members the time has has a volume of complaints
Speaker 210
1:21:34
decreased. It has. by half by 2/3 it depends on the time
Speaker 185
1:21:39
frame that you're looking at I don't have an actual percentage right now I can include that and what I'm gonna put together for you but overall they have decreased
since the passage of of rule 128
Speaker 168
1:21:59
. I'm umm right now I am kind of going back and looking like years back to see how many you know we used to get a long time ago before I was here a lot has changed since then you know there was a time where Aidd asked pharmacies to submit you know medd prescription information. not cause we had jurisdiction to do something with it we just wanted to know what was happening and that you know that was
years ago that's changed we don't we don't need med de complaints now but that really increased the amount of incoming complaints that we got and it increased the amount of reimbursements that were contained in those complaints so we can definitely attribute some of the decrease to rule 128 and two the enforcement action that that we've started taking at AidD and I think but I think we can also attribute some of that to just
better information and communication between Aidd and pharmacists that are submitting complaints I think those two things are the reason why we've seen a bit of a decrease but I can put some exact numbers
Speaker 98
1:23:15
on on that and send it as well from January2025ti August 2025. the volume has decreased in that same time from January2024 to August 2024 Was is that correct? all right thank you
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
1:23:31
thank you senator thank you sir for being here. no further questions in the queue. I appreciate the report thank you members for your participation on this one final item that we have is under 8B and that's a motion to file as reviewed division of state parks, there's no questions I'll entertain a motion to file as reviewed I have a motion I have a second. Any discussion? see none all in
favor say aye with that carries thank you members for your time this morning hope you have a great weekend we're adjourned
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Discussion of State-Specific Workforce Reform Initiatives [Exhibits B1-B5]
− Mason Bishop, Principal, WorkEd Consulting
C. Discussion of Recommendations by Committee
D. Other Business
E. Adjournment
Documents
Speakers
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
Speaker 6
Speaker 10
Representative Lane Jean
Unverified
Speaker 20
Speaker 21
Speaker 22
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
Speaker 27
Representative David Ray
Unverified
Speaker 43
Speaker 44
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
Speaker 55
Representative Les D. Eaves Chair
Unverified
Speaker 61
Senator Tyler Dees
Unverified
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
Senator Dan Sullivan
Unverified
Representative Mary Bentley
Unverified
Chair
Unverified
Senator Dave Wallace
Unverified
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
Representative Andrew Collins
Unverified
Representative Ryan A. Rose
Unverified
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
Speaker 98
Speaker 103
Eddie Powell
Unverified
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
Speaker 108
Speaker 107
Senator Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
Speaker 116
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
Speaker 125
Speaker 127
Speaker 105
Speaker 145
Speaker 156
Speaker 159
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
Representative Les Warren
Unverified
Speaker 167
Speaker 168
Speaker 166
Speaker 169
Speaker 185
Speaker 186
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
Speaker 210