Judiciary Committee- Senate and House
Video
Transcript
8 documents
Machine transcript
May contain errors. Verify important quotations against the official video.
About transcript accuracy
- Source
- SliQ live captions
- Model
- SliQ live ASR
- Processing date
- October 2, 2026
This meeting is called the order the joint judiciary Committee first thing we're going to do is I have asked senator Jamie
Senator Jamie Scott
Unverified
2:41
Scott to lead us in prayer so if you'll stand thank you dear heavenly Father.lord we thank you for your presence today we thank you for everyone who's gathered before us Scott Lord, I lift up all the senators and representatives that are here today oh God Lord bless us and
give us wisdom and the courage as we make decisions
oh god to do what's best for the people in Arkansas today oh God. Lord we pray that you watch over those as they travel back homes back to their homes dear God. Lord give us the peace and the resolve oh God to have open ears and open hearts oh God and help us to be solutionmied in everything that we do we love you today we
Speaker 7
3:15
give you all the praise glory and honor in Jesus' name amen
OK thank you all for being here we're going to be just a little bit unusual because we're gonna follow prayer with prayer we're actually gonna have a moment of silence in the moments of moment of silence I hope that many of you will pray this is I'm trying to do this without
being emotional this is the first judiciary committee meeting that I chaired since we lost Center Stubbleville
and I know it's been a while but nevertheless can't have this
meeting without me thinking about him and so as we have the moment of silence to pray for his family pray for his friends and pray for
the state because we suffered a great loss when we lost him
thank you thank you for that indulgence The I'm gonna take a few minutes here to tell you what we're doing what we're going to be
doing the chairwomandalby has said that she doesn't have any comments if she changes her mind after I speak and needs to correct me we'll go back the
this is the first of a series of meetings hope to meet monthly between now and January and the agendas will be tight today will be strictly about do we need prison beds and while I'm normally a pretty free wheeling chair and let people say and ask what they want if you're not on the subject of prison beds the referee and softball umpire is gonna come out and if you're my friend and you feel like I'm rude I'm gonna apologize ahead of time
and it to you and to the public and to everybody here because we're gonna have we're gonna cover this subject very well but we're gonna start today by laying the foundation the this subject is dear to my heart I visited with every member of Senate judiciary to make sure they were on board before we started visited with chairwomanalubby and visited with others
I was elected to the Garland County Corum court that's hot springs for those who don't recognize Garland Countyorn Court in 1992. and the and I'm just I'm gonna tell you my
motto when I ran I can still is I'm gonna listen listen listen and not put
off today's problems till tomorrow and that's what we're gonna do is we're gonna listen listen listen and we're not going to put off today's problems till tomorrow
but one of we had several huge problems you're used to that by now in government and you can't always deal with all of them as quickly as you would like to but one of the problems that we had is we were double bunking inmates in the county jail plusle them on the floor and then letting people out that we didn't really want to let out and we didn't get to fix that till sometime in the last 101el years and built a new state of the art county jail in Garland County which is full
and much of it is with state prisoners as it was back then the and so we have a governor who has indicated she's interested in doing something about this problem after being here 14 years I didn't I had really kind of lost hope that we would and I think it's incumbent upon us and I don't think there's a better place in the judiciary committee to dig
into this and find out what solutions are and what where we ought to be going the and also I have a lot of confidence in this judiciary committee I appreciate all of you that are not members and you'll be free to ask questions but I I have a lot of confidence but let me this subs important for a lot of reasons but today we'll talk about do we need prison beds September30th dates may change
agendas may change but I want to know where we're going and let me tell you today is the only day that I think I know what the answer will be and those of you that know don't know me I'm terribly transparent I know that's unusual in politics but I don't know where we're going I know I know how to dig out information and September30th the subject is gonna be please if you can come come and prep and make plans ahead of time I know how busy
you are to prepare to stay I know how hard it is to keep rear ends in the seats in a long meeting I'm gonna tell you ahead of time it's gonna be a long meeting the subject is gonna be how do we reduce the number of prison beds that we need and that is a huge subject we'll have a lot of people here to testify and and inoctober 19th the plan is to dig deeper into some of those issues that come up november the probably the
second week but November the plan is to look at solutions water things that we can do and December is also about supposed to be about solutions and any and recommendations if we can agree on it and it when I say recommendations I don't have a clue what they might be and if we don't have a serious majority to make recommendations we just won't we're this is this is for us to find information so
that when we get into January that legislators feel like they know the subject and and they they have some ideas what they ought to
do what'll work and what won't work so as I mentioned next month this is important everyone knows
it's important but one of the things that government has to do is protect its people there is no victim where there is no perpetrator
and it is our job to make sure that we don't have more victims than we ought to it would be nice if we lived in a world where there were none because perpetrators that we knew better are roaming freely so that's the first thing the second thing is behind that is I think then we have to be concerned about the safety of those who watch over the perpetrators that being said there's much more the people
who were the perpetrators that are in our prisons are people and they have not only are they human beings they have families there's reasons why they got to where they are some of them we just need to protect the public from others we need to make sure they don't keep coming back and we also if possible need to have them as close to the families as we like said they have families families where we can keep it from being a hardship for families to visit etc we ought to do that
we need to be sure that they are there that they can get the services I'll touch on one of the things that I know will be touched on in September it's it's not certainly not controversial just simply because yesterday I was starving on the way home and I stopped in benton and got went into a restaurant picked up something to carry out and as I was coming out I saw what I thought was an old acquaintance and I took the chance and spoke to him and it turned out
that I was right and in that conversation I asked about the son and this man and other family members with us said well the good news is he's clean well I knew immediately they knew I knew immediately what that would mean and he's been clean for a while they alluded to the bad news is that he's clean because he has no choice. which means that he's institutionalized somewhere here in the state
we're a place where there are very few families that this does not affect in one way or another and the we need to be aware first we need a place to keep them from hurting other people then we need a place where we can help and I being from Garland County we had a drug court I think before there were drug courts and the I remember a
particular newspaper editorial I very much appreciate the judge that did that we had a newspaper editorial written by a lady who I think is one of the best newspaper editors we ever had and and we disagre we disagreed on almost everything on politics so that's saying a lot for me to think she was a great editor and fair but she wrote an editorial criticizing that drug court because she said it was like a church service in those meetings that that editorial is still dear to my heart
because those those court meetings were like a church service because of the people testifying about how their lives have been changed that tough judge said you can go to rehab or you can go to jail your choice but seeing and it and but seeing that over and over seeing not just the perpetrators have their lives changed but what it does to that whole family so we're this issue is a
huge issue I would like to go further and we can't we do not we will barely have the time I would like to go further and talk about what happens within
the department of corrections and those things we're not gonna have time for that so I want you to know where we're going
and I want you to know today should be the simplest meeting hopefully will be the shortest we've got lots of people to testify but I think that it's gonna be
most will have the same answer not everybody will have the same answer and let me tell you I was grateful for that I reached out to the ACU early on and said that I want the people who don't believe we should ever have another prison bed etc and up until just this last week they said well no nobody wants to come and then somebody is coming because folks we wanna hear everything from everybody again the subject today is gonna be do we need prison beds if anybody wants to I can't reinforce this enough
because I don't like to be mean and I'm gonna be so if anybody wants to go backwards into history if anybody wants to make a campaign speech today is not the day today we are going to talk about do we need prison beds and our questions will be about do we need prison beds and you've got other subjects that you think I have not got on the agenda yet contact me contact uhhurk Dalby because we're we're gonna do our best within this scope to really dig into this subject and so a lot of things that
you might want to talk about we will talk about at future meetings so I hope I have been
clear and the with that chairman chairwoman dalby is still fine with my remarks so we will move to see consideration to approve September30th meeting minutes motion from central ri a second from senator Blake Johnson all for the motion
any discussion? all for the motion signify by saying aye all postd motion carried smooth to d consideration to approve December 11,2025 meeting minutes motion to approve from central ri second from Senator Blake Johnson any discussion hearing none all for the motion signify by saying no thank you and we'll get on to our business in E discussion of prison beds in Arkansas and
the first two people we're going to have come forward Lee Watson and doctor William Doubs byrs of theorrection board if y'all are here and we'll come forward if you gentlemen will have a seat turn your
mics on and if you will each introduce yourself for the
record your name and who you represent William
Speaker 29
17:19
Dubbs Byer Board oforrections Lee Watson board of corrections y'all get to lead
us off so is subject is
do we need prison beds tell us what you know if you go too long I'll I'll let you know and we'll because we got a lot of people coming behind you but we're very interested in
what you have to say and then I'm sure you're prepared to take questions I
Lee Watson
Unverified
17:50
think without any hesitation the answer is yes and we need to add that would you pull the mic closer please pardon me I think the answer is yes without any hesitation we need to add beds as rapidly as we can you know what however we can most economically and efficiently do that. Mr Chairman I do have a prepared statement if you
Speaker 34
18:09
allow me to read it and if I do wander off
topic I'm sure you'll you'll let me know OK I will firmly but but with all the love in my heart Miss
Speaker 36
18:26
chairirman madam chair and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to to appear before you today. My name is William Duubs Myers. I spent39 years with the Arkansas Correction Schoolystem serving as a teacher principal assistant superintendent and and the superintendent I was appointed in 2015 to the board of correction and
reappointed in 2022 and I serve until December31st,2028. the question before us is straightforward. do we need additional prison beds in Arkansas the answer is yes the board of corrections is recognized this need for some time a normal county jail backup is historically hovered around 1500 as of yesterday's daily count the backup was right around 2300 Our existing facilities are operating above designed
capacity and thetectarkansas Act will lengthen certain sentences which will further increase the number of people requiring secure bed spacece. current sentencing practices and judicial philosophy in Arkansas continue to drive demand for more capacity at the same time while we're appropriately discussed reentry programs and skills training to reduce recidivism there has to be far less sustained focus on the front end expanded mental health, drug courts etc. we need both
we need additional bed space and we need more programming. I'm prepared to answer any
questions you might have all right do I see representative beatty's lots on because I'm I'm not used to this system haven't done it in a while Representative beatty you're up first thank you Mr chairir. First, I
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
20:12
want to thank you for calling this meeting is a very important
subject and is myself and cochair Mcee something that that that we've looked at and and had plans for for a meeting but thank you for having this at a judiciary committee meeting. I appreciate that my question for you gentlemen is what efforts have you done as members of the board of corrections to add these additional
Lee Watson
Unverified
20:43
beds can tell you that in through 2022 our our efforts then were to add a 1000bd facility and
also a facility near a community corrections facility near El Dorado of about400. when the new administration came in you know that was all shifted and we refocused and followed the lead of the administration in the meantime we have shoehorned every inmate we can into every corner of every facility and as Dobyers stated all of our facilities except one are well above capacity and that one is the women's unit in LittleRock it only has a bed
capacity memory serves of44 and I think we have40 in there and that facility basically has two wings one is in effect a nursing home for for women who have serious health problems or dementia or whatever and the other wing the inmates there are pregnant and then once they give birth they're there with their child for three days and then they return to McPherson or normally that's the the unit the women serve in so and then following that you know the governor's pushed the efforts to to build the facility
and Franklin County so frankly the board kind of took a step back because even though traditionally and under the statutes it it's the board's lead on that we also and I've talked with Benny magnus our former chair at length about this the the process that the that the department has always gone through is for the chair to approach the governor who you know as well as I do that's where the money and the budget come from to see what was
tolerable in 2022, we were looking at and and all the engineering work was done all the foundation was laid, not physical foundation but all the underpinnings to move forward the engineering and all to expand calico rock by about500 beds but they ran into some issues there partly because it is calico rock and the price tag was going to jump from75 million to I think around 120 million and at that point governor Hutch in son said no we're going to hold off on that
and because of the expense and it was in that kind of limbo state when governor Sanders came in and that75 million dollars that had been set aside for calico rock got basically undesignated for that
Speaker 29
23:11
specific project Representative beatty did that answer your question?
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
23:19
It did not I didn't hear from board memberber Byeers on
Speaker 49
23:24
that issue Representative beatty I won't reiterate what he said
Speaker 36
23:29
Igregre with that if you look at it and I can I can get you the I can get you the information. I don't have it in front of me but for the last since 2014 the boardard oforrection has submitted letters and requested more prison, more prisons to be built we've kind of run into a brick wall on that we are not in the position to do that that's the legislature and of course the executive branch the only thing we can do is say we need them
and we have for 10 for for 10 to12 years we have submitted requests formal formal bed space to date we've and and again we have expanded some of the units we put more inmates in some of the units try to pack them in as mess as best we can find additional space within the facilities that we have but we're I think we're about maxed out thank you for that Mr chair just
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
24:32
to follow up please don't I came in
hold on just a second yes of course you can have a follow up the subject that we're getting off on will be appropriate for November today again I want to stay on do we need prison beds but we
go ahead with your follow up if it's on that subject it it is first
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
24:55
I won't copies of all of those requests that you made because I I don't think I've read anything that's been a
request for more bed space from the board of corrections similarly I don't know did did we swear these gentlemen in when they came
in today I made the decision during these
hearings since they're mostly for informational purposes not to be swearn people inpresentative beatty so the answer is no. Well I'm not certain that it
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
25:23
would have really mattered much but I just wanted to clear
that on the front end. so I'd I'd like that request and then I'll I'll get out of the cube because I
want to focus more on how you have created bedpace in the past with EPA so you gentlemen can prepare your remarks on that and
I'll get out of the queue and let some of my colleagues speak.
Thank you Mr chairir. thank you Mr Majority Leader Senatorriss you
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
25:49
recognize us thank you thank you gentlemen for being here today. I
don't get off subject but we're talking about bed need and availability the document put in front of me had already thought about it in fact I think I mentioned it to
Mr Watson at one time about incarcerations going well beyond their TE
date this document says 83% I knew it had to be a number from the contacts few contacts that I've gotten is there any is that changed recently and what can we do to accelerate I don't we don't want people out that's not safe and realize they do things in there that they get
hell far but that will open beds up we're hearing from sheriffs that they got them backed up they need some place for them to go have you seen an increase in holding in the last several months passed the TE date I
Speaker 65
26:55
I can't I can't answer that It I don't know it's
Speaker 66
26:58
something that you would know that dexter Payne he's here today and lindsey Wallace I'll save save that for them thank you.
senator senator clark I mean Senator Tucker Thank
Speaker 70
27:17
you Senatorp Mr Senator Allen so both of
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
27:24
y'all test I understand your testimony that it's your position that we need more prison beds and my my basic question although I'm going to elaborate on it a little, my basic question is why and the answer I'm looking for is not arithmetic. it's not oh
we got 2300 people in county jail backup. it's a it's a deeper question than that we already have one of the top5 incarceration rates in the United States higher than any other democracy in the world. we actually have a higher incarce ration rate in China, Iran and Cuba combined. and my question is do you think are y'all y'all and Mr. Byeers you have a longer experience in the prison system but both y'all have extensive experience at this point and so our ourkansans particularly in need of incapacitation more than
our neighbors or what you know what what is going on why
Speaker 77
28:19
why do you believe we need more prison beds? that is a complicated question
Speaker 36
28:25
it it has to do with the I guess maybe the attitude or the the philosophy of of incarceration we want to we we want to lock people up and there's not as much front
Speaker 49
28:44
end there's not as much mental health programs upfront our drug court treatment upfront you're talking now before they get to y'all
Speaker 36
28:59
there it's all that's a long that's that's a long and it's gonna be a long
Speaker 49
29:03
answer but I think I can give a shorter answer hope so as to as to the
Lee Watson
Unverified
29:08
why part of it and the why part of it is simply Arkansas statutes
I mean our prosecutors are following the law they're prosecuting people and my home county Sebastian County is especially good at it cause I know that because percentage wise uhsebastian sends more than it's share if you will than most counties. so it it it's a product of the laws that are on our books and our our sentencing practices and all the bigger question to me and it kind of goes to the heart of what you're talking about is if incarcerating people
stops crime and deters crime we can we have somewhat of a reverse chicken and egg problem in Arkansas because we have some of the highest crime rates but also the highest incarceration rates so you think well if incarceration deters crime you would think we would have lower crime rates and and that's something I've caused me to, you know, scratch my head a lot over the
last many years and I started off in the nine0s both as for about five years as a deputy public defender and four years as a deputy prosecutor so I've been on both sides of it
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
30:25
that's an important point and I'm I'm glad that you raised it. I think it's important for for the members to to know that so thank you for mentioning it and I agree with you Mr. Byeers too there's there is more that we can do on the front end of the longitudinal system. there is a point where they do get to be under the jurisdiction of the department of Corrections and I'd like to hear from you
gentlemen about how you think we can do better. you know we we also have one of the worst recidivism rates in the country and taking taking the recidivism rate specifically aside for a moment. I mean because we're talking about prison beds right so we should be looking at prison admissions and people on probation and parole constitute64% of our prison admissions even though only 16% of violent crime is committed by people on probation or parole and can you help I I I think that's important for the members
to understand too because I feel like those admissions are what are are driving the demand for capacity in Arkansas. People on supervision who haven't committed a violent crime. so can y'all speak to that at all and and help us understand what the department is
doing or or can do or needs more resources to do in order to
Speaker 36
31:40
help that problem specifically Programming vocational training academic education and and by the way we do that now
we we need more of it a vocational there's only 20 to30re0 inmates who were involved in the vocational program that needs to be expanded a passion of mine is faithbased programming we have a seminary at Varner that that produces field ministers that go out and and and do a ministry and in other units I think that's there's a there's a great
faithbas program at at at Riceville also at at Malverne I think faithbased programs are going to have a major impact on this because realistically you're not gonna change unless the hearts change. and if we can do something to change the heart and rehabilitate morally I think that's gonna be a a step in the right direction does that
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
32:54
I hear what you're saying although my understanding is we've had those programs in place for quite some time and I I got another question that's bedsc specific Mr Mr Chair Is I know you're gonna say we're getting into September 30 territory with that you're your your questions are
on point but we will handle those as both the issues you brought up Septemberoctober and November so I have a
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
33:16
bedspecific question and and that is so right now you've just testified that we need more beds
and it's a it's a two part question. One is is there a particular type of bed you know do we need maximum security beds community correction beds if we added a new in in treatment reentry facility and we had more reentry beds can we divide those up somehow in your experience and then the second part of the question is if we could just snap our fingers and add3,000 beds today magically not in any particular place in Arkansas that's not the point of the question. We just
automatically had3,000 more bets. Do you think that would solve our capacity
Lee Watson
Unverified
34:00
problem? for a while temporarily and I think to answer your question is all of the above you know
western Arkansas has I think one community corrections facility. I've talked with the drug court judge in Sebastian County Steve Taor. he sees about 1200 cases per year and I asked him point blank if there was a community corrections facility in Sebastian County where you could sentence inmates who were first offenders, first
time drug offenders who basically need to be pulled up short so that they could realize that the next step is going to tucker or Cummins how many people do you think you out of your 1200 a year do you do you in a community corrections facility could you fill those beds or how many beds could you fill in the course of the year and he said about 120 we also need a reentry facility near Fort Smith because of the large number of offenders that
come back and I'll tell you not the department not the board but we have about6,000,6,500 inmates that leave the system every year and they're coming back home wherever that is and if if we can help them so that they can make that transition back to their their corner of Arkansas that's we're all better off for it but I've also spoken with Washington County judged. she didn't give me specific figures I'm also planning on talking with the Benton County, judge that handles drug court because
I think there's things we can do with community corrections facilities and I think if to answer I'm going a little further here but if if we add El Dorado 2 or three on the western part of Arkansas probably Jonesboro pretty quickly if you have 300 beds in each of those facilities that are community corrections and reentry those facilities are going to be way less expensive than a hardened prison and and it also keeps those offenders near their families, near their communities and we do
need a true prison and it frankly need I'm from Fort Smith it needs to be in western Arkansas and for all the folks that are from Fortsmith that switch and say well I don't want a prison near Fort Smith. They need to drive over into Oklahoma and head through Poto and Tallahina and from Fortsmith the southern corner of Fortsmith you can be at a7800 bed facility in Oklahoma and about35 minutes and occasionally one of their prisoners on work detail walk away or whatever but you don't hear much about it but it's
there and I I only learned of it a few years ago and it's been there for
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
36:35
decades so even if we added all those beds that you're talking about to to finish where you started that's still not going to be a
Lee Watson
Unverified
36:42
permanent solution for our state correct to grow as the population grows mean it's simple
Speaker 108
36:47
as that excuse me senator Tucker I'm done thank you
unless we change the laws and the point will points well made thank you for laying the foundation for September and November just remind members they will be long but
very interesting and very productive meetings on very important subjectre say what was brought out Senator
Simon you're recognized right thank you Mr chairir and
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
37:31
you answered my second question about the types of beds needed because we would all agree all beds are not created equal, correct? my first question goes more to do we need the the topic of this entire conversation do we need prison beds? You both emphatically stated yes but it's been qualified yes we need prison beds based on the current system that we have set up, correct? and that is the distinction that I want to make sure that we all keep in the back of our minds coming into
this September30th meeting is we're spending less than most states on corrections for incarcerating more people than most states on corrections. so we need a deep analysis on exactly what's going wrong. and I just want to make that point and and to your point I
Lee Watson
Unverified
38:17
think that's one of the things and I won't pat myself on the back for this because it was happening before I came on the board6.5 years ago but Arkansas's prisons are operated most efficiently or one of the
or cheaply depending on how you want to look at it than about any state in the country I think our average cost is somewhere around65 dollars to70 dollars per inmate per night there are other states where it's well over $100. so thank you I'm sorry if we can get you back up I think you
turned your mic off so I'm gonna need some help And Id I do just want to clarify
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
39:05
I don't think throwing money at the problem is the solution here you'll do an amazing job with the resources that you have
and I thank you for that. senatorimmon you you finished those questions with wouldn't you wouldn't you agree that that that's
how you make your point and and while asking a question isu wouldn't you agree we know the and I would say
Lee Watson
Unverified
39:29
yes and it's the staff and management of the department that make that happen uhpresentative gazaway you're recognized
Speaker 128
39:40
thank you Mr chairir So I guess first I just want to establish are you guys here today
Representative Jimmy Gazaway
Unverified
39:44
speaking on behalf of the board are you here personally in your individual capacities as board members. I would have to say I'm speaking on I'm I'm not speaking
Speaker 36
39:53
on behalf of the board I am a member of the board of correction but I, I don't, I don't see myself speaking on behalf of the board I think in order for that to
Lee Watson
Unverified
40:02
happen the entire board would have to be here and before we offered an opinion we'd have to vote on it so I don't think it's a it would
be practical to have the board come before the legislature and try to have a collective yeah it's just a
Representative Jimmy Gazaway
Unverified
40:19
yes or no ok thank you now this question has been asked but I wanna I wanna drill down on it you say that we need more prison beds which I wholeheartedly agree but not all prison beds are created equal. That point has been made specifically what type of prison beds in in terms
of a ratio, do you think we need? what is the breakdown? Do we need ADC beds do we need community corrections beds if
so how many AdC beds how many community corrections bedspresentative Gaaway that's a great question but we really will get to that in November the and we will be here all day the what I'm gonna go ahead you right on line go ahead and finish the question and answer it
because how many what types we need versus do we need them
november we will definitely dive deep into that now Mr
Representative Jimmy Gazaway
Unverified
41:23
chair if if that's your ruling then we'll just wait till November. OK thank you
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
41:40
representative the cent king thank you Mr chair so back to one question about this overcrowding and I've outlined
this and went to the board of corrections and gave a detailed about where we got to this point and it started in 2011 but there was to answer you know one of the questions this overcrowding has due to a lack of the legislature and governors putting enough money towards this and the only thing that has happened since 2011, there was one proposal in 20 17 that would have significantly addressed it. The biggest issue that everybody needs to remember is we can talk about beds and solutions but the other part is
how do you pay for it? So every time you come up with beds the other calf needs to be how do you wind up paying for it and what funding mechanism you're going to do or you're going to raise taxes are you going to cut other services what's going to happen but to your point calico rockck, if we'd have went through with that expansion would have been expanding525 beds. we need to go back to expanding calico rockck and look at that
because that's that's a november discussion well this is about
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
42:44
adding beds so but calico rockck would have
we'd already be525 beds down the road had they done
what you guys were wanting if I could hold up just a moment the question today is not where the beds will go not what we what kind of beds they will be etc it it the fact that we've laid the foundation that we're going to be talking about those things is fine today the question is do we need beds and some of these are right there on the line because the the reasons we need beds but when we get into the specifics of where
they're gonna go etc that's that's for a future discussion it's not for today but and I can assure you when
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
43:28
we get there we will have that discussion but expanding existing facilities like that would help us get to answer the question adding morebids wouldn't it you
Speaker 144
43:39
may answer what was the question I'm sorryues Again I should've basically adding other facilities
Speaker 49
43:55
like what calico rockck was is a way to add bids that that certainly should be on the table I I think that everything should be on the table adding to existing units now I I do have a problem with southeast Arkansas you know we we we're we're pretty well saturated down there but I think that everything is on the table as as far as
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
44:13
how do we get beds and the big question is if you were in here since 2013, what proposal did you have before you start criticizing what proposal did you have to address this problem when it was happening literally 15 years ago
again the history will be a good thing to bring up in November today we're going to lay the foundation of whether we need prison beds or not and whether we need to have any more meetings or not so thank you good subjects and we
will get to them Centtra Hester you recognize thank you I wanna talk a little bit about
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
44:49
the emergency powers actc. do you know how many you know if we were to talk about the beds do we need them
or not? how many inmates have we released in the past year,5 years or 10 years roughly through the emergencyowers
Speaker 49
45:06
Act. I don't know I don't know senator we haven't released any in probably two years
Lee Watson
Unverified
45:11
we haven't release released any since January of 23.
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
45:15
and who decides when it's appropriate to use the emergencyowers Act to to release criminals back out on the street that that is
Speaker 36
45:24
defined by a law that the legislature passed when the when the prison
system reaches a certain percentage of capacity then then the board can consider invoking the emergency power powers actct which basically just releases people who are well they
Speaker 77
45:40
still have to meet the parole board they they still have to meet the criteria it's just early release it's within I think up to a
Speaker 28
45:51
year early on parole and who who decides when we're at capacity well that's the
Lee Watson
Unverified
46:01
that's each of the facilities has a rated capacity so
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
46:03
so the board determines what capacity is at each place and then determines if because it's at capacity if it was if it was a 1000 members today y'all could say in two weeks we're having a hard time staffing it. so now it's 800 so now capacity's 800. we can let people outdo the emergencyowers actct because you have moved the goalpost on what capacity is is that accurate that's not accurate we we've never
Speaker 49
46:26
done that I mean I I I suppose I don't know maybe we could do it legally but we've never done that
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
46:33
so you haven't left buildings at Varnernti building's empty there have been
Speaker 49
46:38
there and then adjusted what what your capacity was there have been times like I remember the
Speaker 36
46:45
pine bluff unit it was shut down for a time because it it needed renovation they were moved out tucker at one time was shut down because we couldn't get people to work there a part of Tucker not the whole unit but part so there have been times yes that the that it has been reduced for for a reason
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
47:07
you know we've got a couple more thoughts I mean you know we've we've heard it said that our we've got more people in prison than than China. I don't think anybody including the Chinese government believes anything that they report. I mean they're communist China they've killed over 100,000 of their citizens since we've, you know we've had 10 executed so using China as a reference point I think is a is is a bit absurd to say that Arkansas is on some sort of playing field with some foreign country who's pleased on a daily basis to kill their citizens. We are not
we treat our people humanely and we we make them answer for consequences so the the next thing I would I'll tell you what I'll I'll wait and I'll
get back in later thank you. thank you entrepresentative Springer good afternoon
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
47:55
thank you Mr chair as I understand what we're here today to talk about is does Arkansas need more prison beds and so in order for me to be able to come up with an answer
for that question I need to know what are the data? what are the data meaning that have you disaggregated the data with respect to all the persons that you have within our system how many are in each facility what and all of that can that information be shared? I would like to see that information and and I think that that would help us determine whether there's a need for more prison beds. we need the data needs to be disaggregated so that we can see that there is a report done
Speaker 36
48:40
every night. I get it every day of of what the every unit what the capacity is and and I'm sure that if you'll talk to Secretary Wallace I'm sure that she can get you on the list to get that to get that email every night. Well I think the entire I think as a
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
48:58
committee we're supposed to be doing this as a committee I think and as I understand our charge we have September, October, November we have a meetings that will be scheduled and I think that we need to come
in at each of the meetings and look at the data to determine you know what the data show and then from there develop some plans or solutions to the problem if if we've determined that it is a problem
Lee Watson
Unverified
49:24
if I might add this morning Ie emailed the the chair the most recent monthly reports and we have three of those one is from the secretary one is from the director of corrections and the other the director of community corrections and in those you will find a list of the
facilities their rated capacity and the current population of that facility and how much overcapacity it is and if I may take a moment and explain kind of the EPA and the history of that'll I'd like to do that because I think it gives us a good frame of reference and it's all about us needing prisons Mrir and you know before you do let me uhpresentative Springer I have
not had a chance to view his email but from what I will
ask staff to distribute that to the members of
Lee Watson
Unverified
50:15
the committee and if if you look back if you want to know a little bit about how bad Arkansas's needed capacity. Do a google search about sheriff Tommy Robinson early 1980s. I was in college at the time and the county jail backup there was enough of a problem for Pulaski County that he took some inmates down to I think Tucker, I'm not sure or pine bluff and handcuffed them to the fence and left them. it was a problem
then we're talking early 1980s the emergencyowers Act was passed in 1986 and what it did was it allowed a process by which inmates who were within 90 days of release pardon me one within one year of release who's release date had already been determined by the parole board if they were in for nonviolent offenses and had been good inmates hadn't had any disciplinary problems they could
be relea released up to 90 day pardon me up to one year early.gain non nonviolent offenders that process basically is that the director of the department ofrections would make recommend a list to the board of corrections if we then approved it it would go to the parole board. Now mind you the parole board's already looked at these people that's kind of where it came from but the parole board would then make a decision do we release each one of them or not and again these are folks who already have a hard set
release date. they might be released a day early or360 days early. Those were nonviolent. as the years went by that didn't prove to be as effective as everybody wanted and a new EPA or an amendment to it came through and I don't recall which year off the top of my head but it was for all inmates and again if they'd been good followed all the rules they could be released up to 90 days early and again that's when
a date had been set for them to be released kind of set in stone if you will but that was much broader it wasn't just nonviolent offenders it was offenders who had behaved well and done what they were supposed to do supposed to do while incarcerated but again that might shave a day off their time or it might shave 89 days off or whatever but the board's roll in that it's kind of the middle part of that process once those have
been put together by the the director and and if we move that along then the parole board would look at it and if there's somebody they didn't think should be released they would take them off the list and that's been in place for the first version of it for40 years. so that lets you know that we've had a county jail backup problem and a capacity problem for well over40 years, probably closer to50 and and it it's why when I was talking about earlier this is
you know we can play catch up and get to
where we need to be for thank you for that answer we're
we're continuing to rehash what we members I'm always the last person in an auction but if we don't get to the other people that came to testify today we will either not hear them or we will be here all night and I know most of you are not gonna stay
all night I'm gonna go go one more member of the committee that I can see representative let me get the name right becau because it's backwards on here uhpresentative McCola and then I'm gonna ask these gentlemen to stay if they will I don't think we're gonna get back to you but I'm gonna ask you to stay so just in case we get past everybody else and we still have members who won't won't ask you questions that they can't
rush into McCulough you recognize thank
Representative Tippi McCullough
Unverified
54:23
you Mr Chair we know the uhtectarkansastect arkansas means many people will be incarcerated longer. Before that law was enacted did the board advise policymakers exactly how many additional beds those sentencing changes would eventually require and do we know do we have any data yet about that number?
Speaker 36
54:51
as far as I know the nobody on the board was consulted when that when thetect Arkansas Act went through wed we were we were there we were we visited with the legislators but we were not consulted on that second question was do we do we have
Representative Tippi McCullough
Unverified
55:06
any numbers now do we realize how much how that's affecting the beds no we
Speaker 36
55:11
don't I did speak with somebody from the intake unit at Malvern and they they said and it was just their opinion that
there are noticing an increase it's it's already beginning
Representative Tippi McCullough
Unverified
55:24
to take effect OK thank you sir. Just quick follow up, um, Mr Chair, if you don't mind. we've got several different capacity numbers in our materials we've got current capacity design capacity, board rated capacity and operated beds and there can be a difference in some of those between500 and 1000 beds as committee members or which number should we consider when we're talking about beds that are needed
Speaker 149
55:55
I I don't know I don't know what what numbers you're
Speaker 36
55:59
looking at now there are at times there have been temporary beds added just like at Malvern I think there were60 temporary beds added in a gym but they're probably gonna be permanent so temporary beds are tend to be permanent. I I don't know what the rating capacity there is a rating capacity on that report mentioned to Representative Springer it it lists what what the
what the approved beds are but they're it's it's normally above capacity thank
Speaker 162
56:32
you thank you gentlemen if I can add for an
personal privilege recognizing you for a point of
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
56:47
personal privilege Mr chairir, I I just want to say on behalf of these two gentlemen the anecdotal answers without owning any of the responsibility and action intention and and indecision
about the expansion of the need for beds the only truthful and important thing they've said today is we need more beds so and they've had the juice they've had the power to expand these programs that that vice chair Duubs or or or doubs was talking about as far as recidivism and to reorient that department, department oforrections and and they've done nothing so at some point they need to take responsibility for their inaction and why we are here today so I thank you for allowing
me to make that statement I have allowed you to make that statement don't expect the rest of you to have the same courtesy Mr Majority leader if you want to have a committee meeting on that subject we will be glad to entertain that the gentlemen if you would stay I would appreciate it I'm gonna ask the sheriff's and Taylor
Hanford association of countunties to come to the table uhs representative dalby if you
would help get them started I'm going to step out for
Representative Carol Dalby
Unverified
58:26
just a moment Gentlemen, let you have the opportunity to have a seat if you'll just push the button and identify yourself for the record.
Speaker 128
58:35
I'm Sean Holloway. I'm the sheriff of Benton County. Mike Knale sheriff of Dallas County. Scott
Speaker 180
58:47
sawyer sheriff of Polk County Taylor hangnford AAC legal counsel
Representative Carol Dalby
Unverified
58:51
thank you gentlemen for being here today I'll I'm assuming that you have gotten together as to who's going to speak firstt,2nd or third or how you're going to do it so you are recognized to make your presentation. thank you chairwoman dalby. I
Speaker 183
59:07
will begin. I'll read an opening statement and then I will pass it off to the sheriffs and then I think we'll be open for any kind of questions. we appreciate the opportunity to raise awareness and continue the conversation regarding the need for pris prison beds in Arkansas county jails are meant to house misdemeanants and preadjudicated defendants to have felony charges. Once a felon has been found guilty they're to be sent upstream to the state to AdC a judge sentences them to the custody of AdC, not to the
custody of the county. Counties cannot declare a crime a felony. counties do not make sentencing decisions nor do counties make parole decision s counties run and operate jails. sheriffs are the keepers of the jails and see firsthand the impact that an overcrowded county jail has and the impact that the state inmate backup has on their facilities and on their communities the current numbers show that the inmate backup is increasing and the projected numbers show how much more of an increase is
likely. The2024 CgL projections projected in AdC jurisdictional population of 21,803 by end of year 2029 the2025 projections projected an increase to 21,497 so a little bit less but the numbers that are less there have already been added to our jurisdictional population from those 2024 numbers either number represents an increase of over 2000 state inmates from our current jurisdictional population of 19,454.
with the current backup of around 2300 state inmates they're currently 27 county jails that have 20% or more of their bed capacity taken by state inmates waiting for an ADC bed as the state backup increases the ability for county jails to manage the population will decline which will lead to dangerous criminals being left on the streets due to an inability to detain them Counties have spent millions of dollars on jail construction and expansion since 2015 adding over
2200 beds to county jails if not for those beds and the efforts of the Sanders administration and the Department of Corrections in adding 1500 beds the county jail backup would be truly unmanageable but without further state action and state resources the county jail backup will become truly unmanageable because it is on an unsustainable path. Additional community corrections beds are welcomed but they do not solve the truly gordian parts of this issue which is the growing AdC population
currently there are open community corrections beds the community corrections beds population that is not the population that is going to drive the misdemeanor justice system off the cliff it's the AdC population a population that's become more and more violent over time and is expected to have the biggest increases in that population the characteristics of the state prison population have changed drama dramatically over time from primarily nonviolent offenders to over70% violent offenders in AdC.
This also means that the county jail backup is composed of more and more violent offenders and managing the jailed population becomes more and more difficult there are also over 195,000 unserved active warrants in the state over 26,000 failure to appear warrants so people are saying that there are no consequences in our criminal justice system and they're essentially flouting it without further state action and sustained state action these issues will continue to grow and negatively impact local communities and the state as a whole.
Speaker 190
1:02:55
thank you first I'd like to thank you all for for passing thetect Arkansas Act I
Speaker 191
1:02:59
believe that was the most comprehensive and and important piece of legislation I've seen in my career I came to speak today about the need for prison beds today the the state backup list is is 2,506 inmates that's inmates that are in the county jails waiting for a bed in the prison some of them will sit there for six months waiting to be called for a bed to prison uh70% of those offenders are
violent so we're dealing with violent convicted felon offenders in county jails are not designed for that when I took office in 2017 I had a 27 bed jail every day I met with my staff sometimes Saturdays and Sundays just find out who I had to let out of jail which one of my offenders which one of the people in my jail was least likely to harm the public because I'd be running35 and40 inmates in a 27 person jail I had every day I had to decide
whether a guy that was in for DWI third offense was more likely to hurt somebody then the guy in jail for residential burglary or domestic battery and we had to make those tough calls because I didn't have a room in 2022 I added thir2 beds more than doubled my population I went to59 beds I started holding misdemeanor inmates in September of 2022 my crime rate dropped the misdemeanor offenders that
before they'd come to jail they'd immediately get cited and released because we couldn't hold them they'd failed to show up in court repeatedly because they knew I didn't have room to hold them we had inmates or guys with789 failure to appear warnts because they just blew it off there's no punishment when I finally had a method to punish them hey I've got room for misdemeanors in my jail my crime rate dropped the misdemeanor thefts the things like that dropped significantly enough that that that even people in the public
were coming to me saying man you you guys are doing a really good job it was it was a very nice four years but I'm at the point now where my jail's full again I've got 19 state inmates waiting for prison beds they make up35% of my population I don't have room for them I need them out so I have room to hold those DWI third offenders that got sentenced to6 months in jail because like you know we can send them home on house arrest because that's the option but they've already shown
they are repeat offenders they're not gonna follow the rules and it's only a matter of time before they kill somebody indWIrek and I'm I'm to that point where I'm getting ready to have to start to have those meetings with my staff every day because I'm overpopulated I need those beds for for misdemeanor inmates that are that are sentenced to jail and I also need those beds for pretrial preconviction inmates that are that run a risk to my public and I just don't have that room right now I'm tasked with the job of protecting my community and and we need the the tools to be able
Speaker 193
1:06:08
of them thank you Thank you Mr Chairmanit I'm going to kind of repeat some of the same things he said I'm sheriff of Dallas County it's a small rural county but I've always tried to live by a motto we can deal with consequences or deal with problems or we can deal with the consequences and consequences usually suck and we're here so with that said I have about 1
and I can hold about 130 inmates but in order to keep my operation running, I've had to retain federal prisoners so they pay about twice as much they do pay twice as much as state prisoners but I still stay at capacity and like he said I'm having to decide every day what misdemeanor offense I won't let out whether it's adWIIerkeley that that's under the threshold or whatever
so I'm putting these people back in our community and that's on us so I know we're here and and I heard you loud and clear Mr Chairman about talking about beds but the next thing is is we have to talk about what we're getting paid
Speaker 195
1:07:15
for those beds by the state OK I'm gonna stop you as a former
chair of cityity County Local and a former uorum Court member and one of the people of many here who helped raise it from 20 something to40 and I know what's hap what happened with inflation during COID etc
that is a subject and city county localcal may be able to take that up in the next few months because they're not on my schedule and so I very much appreciate what you want to say and it
Speaker 195
1:07:44
needs to be said but not here City county local I'm I'm confused explain that to me city county local is a different committee got that've been around long
that's where the city county locals who led the way to get y'all money before not
not judiciary and and while it would be ok to discuss it here we just don't have time to but it's a legitimate issue and
I'll just say to the chairs of city county local holler at these guys if y'all want
Speaker 193
1:08:17
to talk about it absolutely ok so moving right along like I said the the the immediate need for these beds you have to think about it as we said he said just a while ago70% of the people incarcerated right now are violent offenders
and I don't know what kind of process or protocol is used to determine who gets an early release or who doesn't but I think that's something that needs to be looked at because I'm not that guy I'm not that sheriff that believes you you lock everybody up and throw away the key that's not the answer and we talked about the programming sheriff's office does not have the money nor the capability of doing the programming I have an inmate right now that has served pretty
much his whole sentence in my jail and I can't get him over to diagnostic to get him out. His mother's ill. he's wanting to go home to help take care of his mother and I truly believe this individual is being one of those persons who's gonna try to do the right thing but that's that's sad that he served his whole sentence in my jail and we can't get him into the diagnostic and programming to get him out back in the public so those are some of the things that when we talk about beds all day and and I get your
point but we need to look further than that because we can deal with the problems we can deal with the consequences the consequences suck and here we are so we need some prison beds you know5 months is
not nearly enough but5 months is what we've got so you
Speaker 201
1:09:54
thank you committee I'm the sheriff up in Benton County one of the larger counties I had the same
Speaker 202
1:09:59
issues that the other sheriffs here have mine are on a much larger scale obviously
we do play this game I've been the sheriff for 10 years. if you look at the dynamics of what my county jail looks like today versus 10 years ago it's the type of individuals that we are holding in our jail when I became sheriff we had misdemeanors areas that we could hold people we have not had that system in place for almost7 years and I'll speak to that here in a second but what I'm getting to if you go in my county jail now it looks more like a prison the type of individuals that we hold
and the evidence is in the fact I've always been a big component of work detail crews inmates that go out and do pickups trash do construction type projects I have 6 different deputies that do that. I'm having a hard time now even filling those crews to meet community needs that are that we do provide as a sheriff's office because the individuals I hold now are that70% that they were speaking of I don't feel safe letting them outside the walls so there's times I have crews
that don't go out because I can'tfield those. that's one of the issues going on my county currently was able to save $20 million and we have a project we're working on now I'm gonna build300 beds for misdemeanors in my county I need more felony beds but I do recognize what sheriff Sawyer was talking about and the results that they saw when they started addressing this issue in their their own communities and we're gonna try to address that issue and hopefully
redirect some individuals that would be potential future felons and maybe they won't be a felon if we can address their behavior at a misdemeanor level and give my district judges the power to be judges again and give teeth back to the judicial system that affects those individuals when they first enter into the criminal system so that we don't have to worry about bigger larger prisons in the future this is one of the many solutions I believe that we need to do but I'm not naive looking at today in my county jail I had
150 people last night sleep on the floor which is an issue I did an expansion on that based on our county growth but it's also an issue going on with the state at any given point I have 150 or so inmates that are waiting on beds at the state level so it's a twofold issue for me I'm dealing with a population growth and the issue that's going on right now with the state prison system they don't env you you guys as a body and what this solution's gonna be but
I ask as a sheriff and all the sheriffs that you guys please find a solution for us to get these individuals out of our county jails so so that our county jails can operate with they're intended to be and not be a holding spot for the department oforrections we're not in the business of corrections that's the job that they're supposed to do there's it's a it's a multifaceted issue and problems and I just hope that we can come to
a solution as a body you guys can and the sheriffs with some something that's meaningful that will actually happen and not be talking about this five years
later thank you. thank you Mr Lankford have you spoke you did but hated I missed
it all right I'm gonna go to senator Mcee member of the committee thank you Mr chair and thank you gentlemen for being here
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:13:43
talked a little bit about what it costs the state to incarcerate folks
and you mentioned what it costs counties to be holding state prisoners wouldu would you like to talk a little bit about what it costs our communities when you don't have beds for folks that should be behind bars I've
Speaker 208
1:14:02
I've told this story several times and actually did a video on it we had an inmate in Polk
Speaker 191
1:14:08
County detention center we'd send him to prison five times over 19 year period he served less than 15% of his total sentences he was released on the
EPA3 times during those that 19 years in 2017 he got out again on the EPA after serving less than 15% of his sentence absconded immediately from the county he paroled out to showed back up in my county killed his girlfriend her 67 year old uncle her nine year old son and her two year old daughter in a span of about three days
the worst week of my life that first my first term as sheriff that's that's what it's costing the the counties that's what it's costing the citizens of these counties is we are not holding inmates responsible if he to served20% of the sentences he got during those five trips down to Arkansas apartmentor corrections. he would not have been out to kill4 people and and that's what it's costing and I've told that story a bunch of times but every sheriff in this state has those same stories every sheriff in those states have nightma re scenarios of inmates that
should have been imprisoned that were sentenced to prison the the prosecutor did their job law enforcement did their job the juries and the judges did their job but we didn't have the beds to hold them and they had to kick them out early and they got out to terrorize our communities so that's the biggest cost I see
thank you I'm gonna exercise privilege as chair of senator Mcee you were on theorum court in Garland County for a number of years what year did we build the jail the y'all build the jail
that 14 something like that put back when they the
judges were releasing many many a week what happened to the crime rates in Garland County? they went up yeah so
thank you for the chair have a follow up Mrir yes thank you we we appreciate the work y'all do
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:16:18
would you say that the current operation of the department oforrections makes your job easier or hard
Speaker 191
1:16:31
over the the last several years that they're they're doing the best they can I do believe they work hard they're very responsive usually for what they can do if I have a problem inmate waiting to go to prison I can call them and they will they will make arrangements if I have a medical issue with one they will bump him up in the list and help me out. I think they're doing the best they can with what they have I think we have failed them by not providing them with the bed space that they need to do the job that we expect them to do. You mentioned that that individual that
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:17:03
absconded and ended up killing those folks was released on APA Was he the only individual that you know of that was probably violent that was released on EPA? No sir, I think like I said I
Speaker 191
1:17:12
think every sheriff in this state that's at any time at all has has had a similar story maybe not with the the the the four homicides but they we all have those
Speaker 190
1:17:20
stories and he's not the only one that I've dealt with in my county either thank you I could I could tell you of
Speaker 200
1:17:25
one of my county individual lady who was out on bond on a drug
Speaker 202
1:17:33
charge. I believe it was her3rd time to be arrested has not had not been sent to prison yet based on what I had in the county jail at the time she was considered one of my lowerle threats to the community therefore she was out on bond again. a few months later officer in Pearidge, Arkansas, Kevin Apple on a traffic stop approaching the car was ran over by this individual she was charging in our county and convicted a little personal for me
because he was a friend of mine trying to think of something I could have done different but if we'd been back 10 years ago that lady would have been in my facility and not out on the street but based on the current conditions and overcrowding that we have in our own county jail. she
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:18:24
was out one more go ahead cent if if if y'all had to choose with choose between a reimbursement rate that reflected your actual costs and freeing up those beds free up the beds thank you
Speaker 193
1:18:39
Senator Mcee if I could kind of following up his I want to say something about department of correction and director Payne they're always willing to work with us if I make that call like he said I I don't want it to sound like we're here against them because we're not they're doing the best they can with what they got but I'm gonna take that opportunity to to say
Speaker 199
1:18:58
that. senatorimmon Thank you Mr Chair and thank you gentlemen for coming
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
1:19:11
and special thank you for the work that you do it's extremely important. misdemeanor justice is that's the gateway drug to felonies I think we would all agree to that we've got to figure out a solution to that and you know, Sheriff Holloway you mentioned basically you haven't had misdemeanor justice in seven years is that correct? And yeah Mr. Hanford, you did mention that some of the counties are expanding and have expanded their jail space two counties in my district have actually built new prisons or built new jails
within recent years. can you speak to what the larger more populous counties are are doing and how they're addressing that with their jail space in particular counties such as northwest Arkansas where population's doubled recently and it's a it's projected to double again. so this
Speaker 202
1:19:59
is an issue I've been dealing with basically for a decade seeing what was coming from my county jail at one point we tried to pass a tax in my county to expand our
facility that would serve us for 20 plus years with an operating tax on it it failed miserably there's not an appetite in our communities for any more taxes so there lies the issue some counties have a tax for operations and maintenance mine does not so we've had to get creative as I mentioned we're building300 bed expansion that I'm gonna use as misdemeanor as long as I can so many of you may not understand the difference between the misdemeanor felony by constitution we have to hold the felons misdemeanors we do
not but we need to hold them so when we get a capacity we have to start turning our misdemeanors away for constitutional reasons so for my county you know we're doing this300bid I'm calling it a misdemeanor pod with hoping that my local cities will help us fund the operations of that but I'm not naive to to know that if something's not addressed at the state level to relieve me of some of the the statements that
I have that that pod will eventually be a felony pod, not a misdemeanor pod because I won't have a choice constitutionally that's one of the things we're doing we're looking at grants for expansions building a hard facilities as we know looking at this prison it's not any different for a county jail those those type of facilities are very very expensive it's about $22 million per 100 beds that's a lot for our county to take on versus the misdemeanor pot at $20 million.
I'm getting300 beds so the stark difference in the type of construction that is going on so it's a it's a very difficult thing what I face is the same issue that every sheriff faces regardless it's just different scales of it Representative beatty
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
1:22:03
thank you Mr chairir. The the real reason we're here today, I I I believe it's because these gentlemen sitting in front of us I appreciate the comment and I appreciate the job that you guys do. I think this committee
wholeheartedly supports you and and how you kind of been handcuffed so to speak with the system that you've been placed in and and operate and discharge your duties and protectarkansans and I appreciate the comments that you made on the ProtE Act and how that's changed and and what I would say is you have friends in the legislature and we will address the issues and concerns that you have is is there anything
else that that you guys want to tell us today that that we need to place our attention on outside of just the reimbursement rate and we'll do that in a separate meeting maybe in the future
Speaker 208
1:23:00
I I came today just to express the importance of of our need for for more prison beds that's
Speaker 191
1:23:05
that's what I came reimbursement rate it's you know it's great I don't budget that money it goes right back in my county general but the bed space is more important to me than the money if you offered me $100 a day per
inmate or said we won't have any state inmates in your jail. I would take that because I need the bed space to to administer misdemeanor justice and hold pre pretrial detainees violent offenders keep my community safe thank you senator and and I'm
Speaker 193
1:23:33
with him the money's not gonna fix the problem you could pay us $200 a day it's not going to fix the problem of overcrowding but one of the things that I didn't say earlier that I want to make clear is everybody in this room
understands you see the the inmate population as it is it could be so much worse because every court date it was brought to our attention today there's a guy with a rap sheet this long but they'll plea bargain down to one charge one charge if all those charges were put in place on these people we would be 10,000 beds probably short right now but I'm I'm with the sheriff here the money's not the issue. I mean it
is we can't keep going like like we have been and I know the senator chair Mr Chairman said don't speak about it but we can't keep going at the rate we are either and that's a whole another story for another day but
Speaker 202
1:24:34
money's not gonna fix the problem thank you sir and there is one other area not so much for this committee today but it is an issue with overcrowding at our jails inmates who have mental health issues that are waiting on evaluations my county right now has35
those individuals have to be housed in individual cells that are intended for two people so right there I've lost for every one of those I get I've I've lost a bit and so at some point we need to address from the state level at the at the hospital what we're gonna do it's very expensive no one wants to be in that business and not but that is an issue that is backing up for our county jails as well as the inmates that have mental health issues like I want to say again thank you
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
1:25:17
gentlemen for being here today and I hope the
two board of correction members that sat at that table earlier and insulted this committee with their comments took notes and heard your voice and what you said today so thank you you're the
majority leader and I love you but you're out of order senator Tucker thank you Mr Chair
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
1:25:41
and thank you gentlemen for the service you provide to people of your county and in this state.
my question is about state prisoners in
your county jails and it's been said to me though not by a sheriff which is and since y'all are here I want to give y'all a chance to answer this question. I understand you can't speak on behalf of the entire state. Maybe Taylor can but you you can only speak on behalf of your counties but it's been said to me that the sweet spot for the number of state prisoners and county jails across the state is somewhere between700 and 1000. So my my question for y'all is is that true or is your ideal number0 state prisoners in your in your jail or is it is it something more than zero or what
percent of your capacity or do you have any knowledge about that sweet spot for a number of statewide prisoners not just in your counties but across the whole state or what what what are y'all's thoughts on
Speaker 191
1:26:33
that me personally my sweet spot would be ze. My sweet spot would be0. We are paid40 dollars a day per inmate. I think the last audit they did where we went through and looked it's costing me about70 dollars a day to hold them so I'm losing30 dollars a day per inmate that40 dollars you're giving me is just offsetting my loss already but I
need the beds I need the beds I would I would prefer to not not to have one the day that they're convicted we we bring them to Malvern or wherever the intake is and drop them off would
Speaker 193
1:27:07
be my ideal situation for my county it would most definitely be the safest as he said the day they they get convicted if we could roll them out of there because that's going to give us the opportunity to hold those misdemeanors that we talked about the DWIs maybe a misdemeanor drug charges or whatever that resulted in
violence, domestic crimes things is is that but you know zero would be that the sweet spot for me too that's just my opinion. thank you for that question
thank you would feel somewhat the same but it'd
Speaker 202
1:27:38
be naive to think that we'd ever have zero there's always going to be those in process but a lower number would be much better but again thank you senator Turker for
Speaker 211
1:27:49
the question thank y'all for the answer
the and that's why we're not dealing with that is the more important subject is the one that we barely have time to deal with between now and January is how do we get them out and the the other one is a very important subject as like I said again as a former quorum court member it is not fair for the state to put the cost off on you or or on your counties but that's not our that's something for somebody to look at it another time if we get them out like you said then that's not an issue anymore
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
1:28:26
uher Tucker were you done I just really was curious if if Taylor wanted an opportunity to respond or if any of
the sheriffs know of other counties where they maybe they built a county jail with an idea that they they need some number of state prisoners and I think that is the case in some counties maybe not in y'all's counties which I totally respect but but Taylor can you speak to speak to this so I always love
Speaker 183
1:28:51
a more opportunity for us to have conversations Senator Tucker, there are going to be some
counties who do good there are some counties that are going to look at the cash flow as a critical to their operations but as we've discussed now don't want to belabor this point because I know this is in the hearing the40 dollars doesn't meet the cost as far as preferring to if there's a number between700 or 1000 as the sheriff said0 would be their preferred number you know I think that's theoretically
possible but functionally impossible. there's always going to be some delay in moving people upstream to AdC for whatever reasons but those reasons would at some point hopefully not be because of lack of capacity but maybe just a logistical or transportation issues historically the AdC backed up for the past probably 10 to15 years has been a little under 1,7 00 I think that backup number historically if it's under 1700 to1000
you're going to have less counties calling with needing you know, director Payne or somebody else to take an immediate action to get somebody out of the county jail so I think historically as you said the sweet spot would be much lower than it is now, probably closer to700 than 1000. and I would like to say that one the EPA when the EPA was amended at one point they benchmarked500 as the state backup and then the EPA could be
used so there is some kind of
Speaker 239
1:30:38
precedent for500 thank you Senblake Johnson thank you guys for being here
Speaker 240
1:30:42
and taking the time away from what you do daily. so I mean this is just a matter of discussion so mental health evaluations mental health issues is is a problem inside our prisons and inside what you guys are doing do you feel like if the state
rather than us building a bunch of facilities to do that on a local level or regional level should we help you guys in in that funding I'm not sure that would be
Speaker 202
1:31:15
a solution so what you're looking at you're looking at most of the time this is a pretrial person who needs a mental evaluation to determine whether they can even go to trial there's times I know Washington County had one for five years. I've had one for 2 years
Individuals in my facility for two years who has not even been to trial, more likely serve more time in my county jail than what they would have been found guilty of of the original charge so I don't know if more money's a solution we just need there are some solutions that are coming but that has been one of the backup problems is when you have hundreds of individuals that are backing up county jails and mine35. that's a lot. so dont I don't know how money would really solve that solution we're just waiting on an eval for someone to determine whether
this person's fit for trial or they're not fit for trial so that we can
Speaker 191
1:32:15
what's slowing down the e I believe that under Arkansas law that there's only I believe 2 right now 2 two folks with PhDs in psychology that can do the evaluation for the whole state it's almost standard operating procedure for defense attorneys to file for a forensic on every
felony case so we have a huge backup. I want to say it's something like in the area of 85% of them are cleared to proceed to trial many of them don't even need a forensic eval it's just kind of a stall tactics is how we see it I believe there's some legislation coming up maybe this next session to to maybe address the the the who can actually do those evaluations but that's a problem right now we only have two folks that can do it and it takes months and months. I I've had several that have spent two plus years sitting in my jail waiting for an evaluation
waiting to go to trial 87% I'm sorry sounds like a good start OK I've got three nonmembers on the
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
1:33:23
list and then we're going to move on Cent King Thank you Mr chairir. I've got two quick questions one of them is to to the Benton County sheriff and I appreciate you taking my phone call the other day. one of the biggest things is population growth we talked about northwest Arkansas that is different than other state you know the sheriffs I talked to over there all are like
in this space issue but getting things done to get them to the space that we need looking down the road we need to intake facility up in northwest Arkansas. do you still agree that
Speaker 247
1:33:50
that would be excellent for us up there it would be
Speaker 248
1:33:55
beneficial I don't know how how that's gonna free up beds for me but yes no I mean it's
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
1:34:01
not bed space but it just would make it easier for us up there to have an intake facility up in northwest Arkansas. I mean in the versus having to drive all
the way down so it would save you mann hours of of transport and it would save you cost, it would save you a lot of different things. OK. the second part is about misdemeanor justice and we're having these county jails and addressing this before they get to felonies and trying to address that. So we're having these county jails now we got counties out there that are going to need expansions because of population growth. there's there's no way we're going to get taxes passed to do that so you guys would not be opposed to looking at state
grants to deal with misdemeanor expansion, situations out there with counties that would could ultimately save us because if they if we can correct them it misdemeanors it's a lot cheaper than letting them be felonies. So for us to provide money for you to apply for grants as what you're doing or an expansion for the state that would be helpful in the process too just for misdemeanor justice. I
Speaker 201
1:35:05
believe that would be beneficial and helpful to other areas but what's
Speaker 202
1:35:12
gonna be the real issue for any county it would be the operating costs going forward because that's where the real cost is in the long term building is one thing but there'll be some challenges it would have to come with some some type of operating mechanism for the counties going forward to build up keep those facilities up and running yeah that's
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
1:35:31
and that's my whole point about even if we had a magic prison genie come down here and plop a3000 bed prison down open January 1 there's not the money down here in the budget that is going to be
allocated to be able to fund that but this would be just grants to allow you to expand county jails, do what it needs but as as I do it would also have to include stuff for operating costs to to help it do that. I mean I agree with that you can't just help with the building you're gonna
Speaker 140
1:35:59
have to help with the whole thing. Yeah and I
Speaker 202
1:36:03
believe in my situation the buildinging it wasn't the issue and I realized that my county's in a different situation where we have a lot of tax money coming in we're in a d
spoiled for lack of a better reason but at the end trying to figure out what's been holding this up is how are we going to operate this long term without breaking the county so there would be helpful if there was grants out there to help with operations of a whatever the facility would be agree Senator King, I definitely wouldn't
Speaker 193
1:36:37
be opposed to that but I think the the main thing is we have to look at is a sustainable long term because
if we build something like that you hire people to run it and everything and I'm going from a very large county to where I'm at is a very small rural county6,000 people overall is it sustainable these grants that you're talking about and and I would be for them but you know I'd have to be assured they were gonna be long term well as I do things
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
1:37:10
don't worry you you can't as you say you can't oper ate it's just like in
17 when I was like wanting to put people
away that it had been correct convicted four times to serve 80% in sentence. it came with a cost at that time to pay for it amazon was voluntarily remitting the internet tax. So I went to governor at the time and several legislators I'm like we're going to have to put this in there hadd we done that we wouldn't be in this mess so you're exactly right you can't just give a grant and then give a tank of gas to get started and then not do the operating part but I'm
willing you'll be finding out more about how to do both those for me
Representative Tara Shephard
Unverified
1:37:55
Representativeerra shepherd thank you thank you gentlemen for being here today. I have one quick question that's multiple I would like to know if your jails are credited when was your last audit and as a result of your audit were there any findings due to overcrowding. I'm assuming you're talking about
Speaker 202
1:38:21
the gel inspections done by the state yearly if you're
Representative Tara Shephard
Unverified
1:38:29
ACA accredited you may not be but any state every
Speaker 202
1:38:32
year for the last to7 years I believe that that's been noted that we needed to increase personnel and increase space based on our population. due to the
Representative Tara Shephard
Unverified
1:38:46
overcrowding and who who does that information go to state legislators are we providing legislative
Speaker 202
1:38:51
audit and it comes to the sheriff and to the quorum
Representative Tara Shephard
Unverified
1:38:54
court I believe so aoc is aware of the overcrowded
I'm sorry audit ok and the same for you all gentlemen you ok thank you for that thank you see
no more questions gentlemen I appreciate you being here today.
appreciate your testimony. the we're moving on to Kaylee Haim I hope I've got that right
evos will turn your mics on and make sure they're pulled up close where we can hear you and identify yourselves and who
Speaker 269
1:40:18
you're representing for the record. ir ' s coming on my name isallene Nazim co-director of Decarcerate and I'm representing the organization decarcerate good
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:40:27
afternoon my name is Sarah Moore. I'm the co-founder and executive director of the Arkansas Justice Reform coalition and a lifelong
Arkansan.lad to be here and I appreciate the subject matter
today. if y'all have a presentation we're ready yes we do can you guys see it sorry we can't see
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:40:47
your screens is it loaded for you? We don't see
the screens on at the moments what was loaded earlier sorry about
Speaker 274
1:40:53
that I think there's a print out too so we're happy to use
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:41:01
the print out if we're having technical difficulties does everyone have have a print out
super does Arkansas need more prison beds is that is that this piece right here Sarah?
yes sir ok you should have that at your desk yeah that's correct and we're working on the screens we'll go
Speaker 274
1:41:24
ahead and get started if you guys are ok with that we know that time
Speaker 269
1:41:29
is a first of all I'd like to thank this committee for allowing us to be here today as I said my name is Kalim Naimm and I
want to speak against bid expansions in Arkansas I think
Speaker 282
1:41:41
we don't have a a overcrown problem and I think that the main problem that we have and it's a it's a policy problem if you were just like in cram cra charges have gone down in Arkansas from 2014 to2025 if you look at the paperwork it says the crime has gone down 17%. how the prison population has grown by 9%
inflated growth is due to loan sentences and some more determining factors like it was discussed EPA's not being utilized and also people are being held up past their parole eligibility date thank
Speaker 269
1:42:32
people are being held past their parole eligibility
Speaker 282
1:42:39
date between 2014 and2025 criminal charges failed 17%. how the population in Arkansas has rose 12% so crime has went down the population has went up however our prison beds are you know the prison population is steady growing if crime is not the driving factor then what is this is a question that we must ask what is the driving factor of our prison population are going up
Speaker 269
1:43:13
I look at 33 things people are receiving longer sentences the parole eligibility is isn't working as far as 83% are staying past their
Speaker 282
1:43:26
transfer eligibility date and for those who aren't familiar with transfer eligibility they well when guys come to prison there are there's a projected date when they're supposed to be released so instead of releasing guys on the projected date
that's a state has certified as they projected they to leave and they're staying much longer and this is a this is not only jamming up the prison but it's also causing the state money and then the emergency power actct has stopped being utilized on the paper as it is 2020 but that's a that's a typo it's 2023 the last time the emergencyow Act has been used and this on a on a regular basis when it was used it it
released more than 2000 people and then to protect Arkansas Act projects to add more than 28,800 bids and it's about the state's own forecast arkansas sent about the same number of people to prison in 2024 as in 2014. how the number of people in prison and roads by 21% Crime rates are not the determining factor and that's
that's that's our whole point in this presentation that we really don't need more beds we need ballot policies and implement the things that we have in place as I said the emergency power Act start you know what I'm saying really looking at the parole eligibility the parole board and releasing people when they're supposed to be released we're not asking that people just you know get out of jail card for free we're asking that the people that really do need to be released because they're
eventually coming home in a way be released in a timely manner and that wouldn't overflow our prison system then when we when we look at the cost efficiency I think everyone in this room as a legislator is keyed in on spending the state's money in a proper way so when we look at the amount of money that we are spending on the people who are parole eligible when we just look at the the the numerous pertaining to the
money from 2009 to2023 in $20,090 million 201,140 million so forth and so forth we're spending a lot of amount of money to hold people in prison that has restate parole eligibility date and I'm trying to I'm trying to kind of go fast with this he because I don't want to take up too much of you all time because a lot of a lot of when I was sitting back there just to be
honest I almost went to sleep because the process was so long but so I'm trying to go fast so let's look at our boarding in states states that border Arkansas and what they are doing to decrease their prison and plo population. I don't know exactly what they're doing but they have to be doing something because Alabama since 2014 to2023 has decreased their prison population by38%
uhtex they have decreased state prison population by 18% Arkansas 1% and the only only state that is bordering in in proximity to Arkansas Mississippi they crying they're incarceration rate has raised 9% so I beg to ask this the question hereold what are the our bordering states doing to the to to decrease their population and what can we be doing in Arkansas to do do the same thing. I think we've been
we've been kind of talking about building prisons in Arkansas but building prison isn't really addressing the underlying issues of the of the things that we really need to be focusing in on building prisons we can't build our way out of outu out of this problem it's simple as that my my philosophy in a way ok so we talk about the problems let's talk about some of the the solutions I think we need more
expansions of specialty courts alternative to sentencing pathways investing in housing and healthcare and reduced court involvement in prison and programs in prison some of the the the AdC people they talked about programs within prison I think if i'm not if i'm not quoting wrong because I could've could have misheard it I think the guy from the AdC said that they have a basically 200 programs for vocational programs
well we have 9000 people in the Arkansas department oforrectionnother thing that I willu I would like to you know add to this conversation and also in in in where I present myself and I saved this for last because I didn't want the information that I'm sharing with you all to be discredited. I'm formerly incarcerated I did 28 years and 11 months of incarceration I got out in 2018. I was a juvenile lifer. I had a life without parole sentence there 28 years and 11 months of incarceration.
However, this is what I understand for for a fact and I know for a for a fact it didn't take me 28 years and 11 months to hold me in prison to become the man that I became so what am I saying in that statement? I'm saying in that statement that people change people mature and a lot of times when people are locked up young they're the the natural process of maturation happens so when I think about
bed space in the in the Arkansas department oforrection. I think about a lot of guys that I left behind the sheriff's were just up here told a lot of horror stories well what about the success stories I consider myself a success story I've been out since 2019 I moved to Jonesboro I haven't reoffended I went to college got a a degree in umgy control I'm a working citizen but then when I think when I think about when I was incarcerated
doing 28 years and 11 months of incarceration how much does that cost for the state we estimate that it costs70 dollars a day to incarcerate someone I did the math on it the state of Arkansas by thess today spent over700,000 dollars to keep me in prison when I didn't need to be there since I've been out as I said I've been a productive member of society I participate in civic a activities in in my
community I remember one time the the Eastman in my neighborhood was overflowing and we as a community came together talked to our different city councilors and got them out there to fix the easements in our neighborhood and that made me feel like 100 bucks I voted in each legisl I mean in each election cycle since I've been out so let's talk about those stories also why a lot of times we confer mong how we need to just be a more per be a more prison know the things that we really need
to be doing and if you hire me for the state of Arkansas consider this a job because I can give them a lot of information about what needs to be done inside the prison to make individuals come at home more battle pe better individual and more productive members of society I think another thing that needs to be implemented within our prison system istzgerald soon as an individual come into prison that should be an individual treatments plan developed for
that individual in markers during the time that they are doing their time marketers should be set for that individual whatever that treatment plan is markers need to be set so they can prepareelf to come home that is not what's being done in the Arkansas department of Correction right now as I speak right now as I speak before you all the only significant programs that individuals can get into is when that thir6 months of for their parole eligibility date so what
if a person has 20 years like I said I did 28 years if I had a date I would have had to wait 23 years before I had before I received any significant treatment so we're talking about we're talking about bed space true enough the best way to increase bed space in the Arkansas department of Correction is to be tough on crime and the way to be tough on crime is to educate the individuals when we have them capacittated in Arkansas
department of Correctionss yes sorry sorry I've been giving you a lot
of leeway and appreciate that and because you're the only ones here
speaking on the other side and also because I found it quite interesting although a lot of it is and it was on subject about needing less prison beds all those September's meeting would be a good time to present a lot of those things so are y'all ready or sir or you wanna speak or to take
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:53:04
questions or we're happy to take yes we'd be
happy to uhs representative gonzalez you've been waiting I pulled a Johnnyri sorry so I've I've
Gordon Watkins
Unverified
1:53:20
heard this TE date mentioned a couple of times even before before y'all got up here but just to be clear the TE date is not a release date, right? It is a date that you're the very first date that you're eligible for parole
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:53:36
the release date that you're given because so many folks are in poverty in the state of Arkansas and actually get our public defender system many of these folks over 90% will actually not go to trial and take plea deals. so when they're sitting with a sentencing order and they're making that consideration of their plea deal. they are being told that there is not a 100% yes you're going to leave at the state but this is the date if you do the things that we've asked you to do you're in good classification you will be able to leave the department of corrections. I can tell you
firsthand I have a pro project that's actually a part of the Arkansas justice Reform coalition and it's very common for people to be in appropriate classification to have done the classes that they're supposed to do and get a year or two year deferral. you have a study that's in your packet that we gave you and it has kind of some academic research to kind of lay out some of the factors so I I want belittle the points today but we'd love to follow up with you and hope that there will actually be a study done by the lc to look in and investigate and study why people
are staying so long past their release date. just to be
Gordon Watkins
Unverified
1:54:41
clear like you you said release date again discretionary yes sir discretionary this is not like the end of theenate or the end of a plea deal release date. This is the first time that they are eligible for any type of of release or any type of parole, correct? yes sir you are correct. OK all right thank you just wanted to clarify Representative Springer thank you again Mr chairir and
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
1:55:09
thank you all for being here this is very interesting to me the question I have is well
you all were present when the other group the previous group was they were up testifying and they talked about the process for releasing and it seemed to me that there's some kind of red taping but for lack of a better word word take it takes longer to be released than when you actually go into can you speak to that? can you explain to me how it is that it seems that you are eligible for a certain
release date however it seems like it takes longer for you to be released from the time that you you entered the prison. can you speak to that? seems to mes there's something wrong with that
Speaker 282
1:55:58
lot of variables that go into that dial when we when we talk about parole issues you know you can be denied parole for for a marrit of reason and serious nature of the crime
institutional record and just different things and then like like just I'd say about 10 years ago and I could be wrong on my time and that the parole board started giving guys instead of one year denials where you'd get a year denial and then next year you'll go back up they'll start giving guys two year denials where they stay in prison for two extra years and then go back up again. so this this also congests the prison system. so like like I said in the beginning of this
presentation I think a lot of the situations and issues that we're doing with the overcrowding of the prisons is the implementation of bad policies so to
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:56:51
add on to that there are required programming but the programs can be incredibly hard so as we're thinking about the70 million dollars that was originally allocated to go towards expansion that I think was pulled back and has the possibility to reduce recidivism we really have an opportunity what was taught to you earlier about vocational training we know there's statin evidence
actually came out of the gel standards folks with arling penic several years ago that as people get educational pathways they actually exit criminality and you know folks to be able to actually be released we have a gentleman who has gotten two oneyear denials and as his family has reached out to us because he can't get into an anger management class that he keeps trying to apply for and Kalim himself in his own story of you chat with him further can tell you about you know how often so many people he was incarcerated with apply,
apply, apply they they want to better themselves and cannot get into things that would would benefit them so that they would be better individuals for the state of Arkansas
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
1:57:51
thank you for your response because that's what I've gleaned from this is the process that's in place
and it seems that it's a revolving door it's not to allow you to get out it's to keep it's to keep you there and to follow up
Sarah Moore
Unverified
1:58:06
we really would encourage that those release officers at that day one really have a pathway plan and that you
really have a team that's around you truly cheerleading and wanting you to have success because ultimately they are coming back to the community so to do that more efficient ly to spend less tax dollars and then to pour into someone that's able to come back and have additional vocational training so that they can get a better paying job for their family you know instead of a minimum wage job which we know in the state of Arkansas about half of jobs are not a living wage job which is going to put people potentially right back into the system. and we don't want
to rehash things but I hope that y'all
will come back in September when
we hope to die as deep as possible into these subjects is certainly real issues and thank you for the question Representative Springer uhpresentative beatty thank you Mr Chair I was kind of waiting
Speaker 227
1:59:00
I thought maybe you weren't gonna call on me but thank you sir thank you.presentative Baty don't do it anymore
I'm gonna be I'm gonna play nice
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
1:59:14
until we get those guys back to the table what
I what I wanna say is I heard you talk about the programming during your incarceration and your time there, would would you say you're rehabilitative state was that led by a programming and things that happened while you were incarcerated or is it just a change of mind that you did on your on your own?
Was it what what aided in that was it thank you for asking that question
Speaker 282
1:59:46
emotional please forgive me in answering that question about what what kind of made me into the man that I am today it was some other guys I was an incarcerated with the older guys and a lot of those guys have passed away now but I consider them battering men than me that desert deserve to you know have have the opportunity to be free and the only reason I'm saying before you you all today is the United States Supreme Court in Miller vsus Alabama said that it
was unconstitutional to give a juvenile a life without parole sentence and by way of that that ruling it led to my freedom however however when I was incarcerated for all of my incarceration are really I tried to get in different educational programs from vocational programs college courses all the programs that they have in the Adc I tried to enter those programs but I was denied those programs because I wasn't36 months before my parole
eligibility date so I wasn't able to give it in and I would I would have liked to be in them programs but I wasn't able to get in them programs and ass as Sarah just shared a lot of guys try to get in programs but it's not enough it's it's not enough programs it's the the gentlemans that were sitting at the table earlier that they said that the vocational programs I think he said it was 200 vocational seats but we're dealing with 9000
individuals,200 vocational seats is not enough vocational or educational or avenues for for people who are incarcerated who we are looking to return to society as whole and healthy citizens so we're talking about spending well we weren talking about spending700 million dollars on a megarius in Franklin County why not divert some of that money to the prison system and and I hate to say this here because I don't I'm not trying to make a a a perfect prison but
I think individuals who are incarcerated and I'm gonna share this look look look little jewel of information with you the same man that created the problem cannot change the problem so if you're not infused in educational education material to the individuals that we have incarcerated when they when they are released a lot of times you're releasing the same person that you locked up
however when individuals are infused so that educational programs whether it be college courts vocational courses anger management, whatever whatever it is the statistics should say when a person has a secondary education when they're incarcerated they have a much lower recidivism rate. The statistics also say that individuals who who are60 and older has aged out of criminality. so we for all those you you answered my question. I try
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
2:02:53
to be respectful and and and let let let him go on so my question is I didn't hear you say anything about the programming at the prison that changed your life and got you out so thank God you're living a productive life out in society now where you can make a difference and be an example and so I I appreciate that but I know there's some of us that we passed the recidivism reduction actct that covers some of the programming at prison to try to focus those those programs on on folks while you've got a
captive audience so that you can return them back to to society where they can where they can do as you were doing so some of that programming was it denied because of violations and disciplinnaries that you had while you were in prison? No it it just was a night by the amount of time you did you have a a
Speaker 311
2:03:42
good clean record while you're in prison? no ok thank you thank youpresentative Bety that's actually a rare thing for
Sarah Moore
Unverified
2:03:48
most fo fo lk s to not get an infraction of some sort in the prison
system I meancau because insubordination or a number of things if somebody you know'm looking
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
2:03:58
at them right now so I see
Speaker 282
2:04:01
what they are let me share this here with youre representative baby if if I can just add on to what you just asked me about my institutional record ok the the thing is is is like Sarah was saying you can get a disciplinary just for saying no gambling operation? No just
saying no you know like looking at the TV count time you didn't hear the always say count time and then they ask you did you not hear me say count time? No I didn't hear you say count time. Well I'm gonna write you up so I can't I can't say I had a clean institutional record but I can say this here anytime I testify before this committee, I would be honest with you all and I would be I would not be intellectually dishonest with
Speaker 269
2:04:55
you all and what that means is when I know the facts I'm gonna state the facts and sometimes people tend to be dis intellectually dishonest well we
Speaker 317
2:05:05
wish you the best and and and keep doing what you're doing out in the public. sir thank you and in in representative
Speaker 282
2:05:11
ladyman I appreciate out you all that you do in the jonesboro area I'm up there with
you one of yes we've got one nonmember withueenator Sullloan. Thanks Mr Chair my comment would
Senator Dan Sullivan
Unverified
2:05:25
be to you first I heard from this from the table out here that China and Cuba were doing better than Arkansas and now I just heard that Alabama and Texas are just looked it up Alabama is building a new prison4,000 beds,1.25 billion they have a second4,000 bed prison being planned for another county. Texas is expanding5,600 beds in a typical facility4 00 bed dorm style so the idea in
Texas Alabama overcrowding they're built for 12,000 and they have 21,000 so just to keep the record straight on what Arkansas is doing versus comparing us to other states and other nations just want to make that statement for the record thank you. thank you senator Sullivan and we
will hopefully at the next meeting have some people from those other states whatever their record may be. Senator Tucker Thank you Mr Chair. isn't it true
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:06:29
that in Texas, when Rick Perry came into office, so not exactly a stark raven liberal so far as I'm concerned at least they closed 10 prisons they say more than $2 billion in taxpayer money in the process decrease their prison population by 17% and at the same time their crime rate dropped by 29%. is that true? that would be
Sarah Moore
Unverified
2:07:02
thank you thank you appreciate Oklahoma also is closed I think4 prisons with some other reforms sentencing reform and some of the
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:07:10
efforts that they've placed we have some some scenes some states like Texas like I just said when they're smarter about how they incarcerate people and rehabilitate them and their incarceration rate goes down at the same time their crime rate goes down is that is that fair all
right thank you I think that I hope let me say I hope that as
we as we dig in and find more facts especially in the September andoctober meetings we'll find that a lot of us have a lot of agreement that both it's you can't put people back out on the street when they shouldn't be put back out on the street and you shouldn't keep people in prison unnecessarily that being said I am surprised that no members of this committee asked this question
I'm looking here at what I think that says it's page4 says criminal charges have gone down now when we passed truth and sentencing laws wouldn't my legislation but when we passed truth and sentencing laws we were told and it certainly made sense that the number of people in prison was gonna go up and that was gonna get more expensive those things are
true how when you you know I love statistics it's all how you look at them so this says here criminal
charges have gone down and then it says between 2014 and2025 criminal charges fell 17%. this is what the 12% increase in population growth now again
I don't know that we can sustain what we're doing but does that is calls and correlation are not in this the
same thing but the correlation is that we've had a 12% increase in pop prison population growth
but the reason that we had truth in sentencing laws was because that people would stay the amount they were supposed to and that we were we were trying to reduce crime and it looks to me like regardless of where we feel like we have to go and I think it's both actually it looks to me like an increasing the prison population by 12% we've decreased crime by 17% how am I wrong? that that's definitely one way to look at it. I mean that's
Sarah Moore
Unverified
2:09:39
data can be looked at in many different ways but we we also know that there have been you know, areas and pockets of the state who have had less folks that are being incarcerated and again the criminal charges are not going up in those areas so I hear you with trying to make that connection and I could see someone trying to make that that possible argument just because I want
us to look at everything and that's 11 of the reasons I'm glad that you're here today and I believe as we
get into September andoctober I think that folks with all kinds of divergent thinking can come to a lot of agreement. I certainly hope so and the we can't uhm vice chair I'd get on to myself but I'm gonna letrsol but get on to me so afterwardsenator clark has
one more response to to that question that you brought forward. I
Sarah Moore
Unverified
2:10:35
guess the one thing that was brought forward that I've heard a lot too across the
counties especially in northwest Arkansas is that correlation directly of population increase as a causation that crime rises or we have to lock more people up and I do hope that we'll dive into that and have deeper discussions of that because we have broken down and looked at countywide what the population changes have done year to year and what the crime charges have done and they don't 1 to 1 correlate there's oftentimes the population increasing while the crime charges are going down and so I don't think we can go to
that what might be kind of a simple solution that we might want to look at I think
there's just a lot more to it so I do appreciate those conversation and I'll just say and
then slap myself for I'll I'll just say that that what Mr Haim said about as folks get older especially past60 some of us are past that now that there is for some people not everyone some people are gonna be mean till
the day they die but for a lot of people they're they're certainly is a less tendency to commit crime and to be violent and I certainly one of the things I hope we look at in Septemberoctober I am sure somebody's gonna bring that and especially if people are sick if they're very ill it's it's difficult to commit crime and so I think we will find lots of agreement from all sides as we get in these meetings and hopefully then we can figure out not just some of the answers but ways to
accomplish them but if we don't have beds if we don't have beds for people assuming we were had mental health or ministry or whatever will help them or or ok if we don't have beds and we've got them languishing in a county jail where we have lots it is important that we have beds so that we can reach them and then the don't you think if we had beds so that we can get them the services that they need
that then that we would be much more likely to be able to reduce beds does that'll try
Sarah Moore
Unverified
2:12:55
to do a quick response but I would say we have the beds county gels oftentimes half or more pretrial so they're charged but not convicted they're too poor to buy their freedom I hope that we'll talk about the state doing a grant program for pretrial services across all the counties that have a jail so that hundreds and thousands of people can safely be released because they're too poor and get supports to be able to return to court. there have been pilots
done in Pulaski County and in places like Douglas County have this in place that are wildly successful it's a best practice by the department of justice since the nine0s and I think those would be available beds that would pop up in county jails across the entire state and then those could be for misdemeanors if we want to
plan those or those could be for other purposes we're very much having a September discussion but I'm as guilty as you are so but I I happen to agree with
you on that except for it can't be like San Francisco or New York City where people are free to go in and shoplift and and and stores are actually closing and just walk out the door because because they have made the restrictions solaxx that they can't be kept so there there's got to be a happy medium and there's somewhere that we don't just allow people back out on the street but you you are not
incorrect about sometimes people because they're poor languish in jail who who maybe should not while they're waiting while they're waiting for trial so thank you so much for your time thank y'all thank y'all for being here I hope that you will get with staff about the the meetings where we talk about
solutions and we're gonna go to the prosecutors Bob McMahan Tom Tatum, David Etherridge
it te e I expect to keep you I appreciate you staying. I don't expect that we're going to be here a whole lot longer but I hope you stay because I've got a really important question to ask you and you're going to want to answer it if you're not here to answer it then we're just going to assume that you want to do what I proposed gentlemen you'll turn those mics on and each one of you introduce yourselves for the record Bob Mcahon
Speaker 332
2:15:36
prosecutor coordinator I'm David Eridge I'm the elected prosecutor in the fourth judicial district and president of the Arkansas prosecuting attorneys association Tom
Speaker 333
2:15:46
Taum prosecuting attorney for the fifth judicial district. thank y'all for being
here you knew that you'd be late on the agenda and that we would have already covered a lot of this but what can you tell us about whether we need
Speaker 336
2:15:58
prison beds or no thank you thank you senator the the primary responsibility of a prosecuting attorney is to seek justice sometimes that justice means
giving someone a second chance sometimes that means an alternative to county jail or prison but sometimes as long as people continue to commit violent crimes against citizens commit those crimes that we value in theE actc to be50%,85 and 100% crimes as long as people continue to commit those crimes seeking justice for a prosecutor is sending someone to prison and and so we believe as a as an association we had a meeting 10 days ago 26 of our 28 elected prosecutors were there. I let them know senator that you'd asked us to be on the agenda and all 26 prosecutors at that
meeting felt like we needed beds there was not one person that said we did not so those are my basic comments and know we'll be happy to answer any questions but but we we believe as most everybody that's testified today that we do need beds to continue to seek justice.
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:16:58
y'all ready for questions senator rice Thank Mr chair thank y'all for being here
one of the white paper this is the current state of
Arkansas criminal judicial system it's on our exhibits pointed out and it's been touched on a little bit today about the misdemeanor warrants the unserved misdemeanor warrants It showed in that data that Oklahoma is 90% less unserved warrants when this was put out Missouri's 95% less than Arkansas
do you know what's different in those two states or there are there more more criminals running around there they're not going to mess with or what's the different now that some of the other states there wasn't there wasn't that vast a difference do you know anything or do you get any
Speaker 333
2:17:58
feedback from other states well first off none of us here serve warrants you know so that's not not really our our deal I I can tell you in in the courts in my district that that I prosecute and that my deputies prosecute
that there's I think part of our problem is and has been traditionally was lack of space to put these individuals most of these individuals that have outstanding warrants in in my jurisdiction they don't have a warrant they have 25 warrants or 25 FTAs failure to appears and so you you see a lot of
that also they they know everyone that goes through our district courts know that that our counties were rural we don't have a lot of tax base we don't have a lot of funding we can't afford to house them you know Scott County's probably the oldest jail in in my jurisdiction and the smallest but you know they they've I don't know what the number is I would say they have several 100 outstanding warrants and bed
space for 27 people and those bed spaces are already filled and so all you can do is recite this person to come back to court and you know they may show they may not most of them aren't gonna show because they know no one's gonna no one's gonna hold them accountable you know and it's like anything else that's one of the one of the problems in the system is is the inability to hold people accountable for their actions and you know just like my kids if I ground them and then then
unground them the next day you know there's there's no no lesson for them to be gained and I sometimes I ground them for a week and they do the same thing two weeks later you know but but I would say that's one of the issues that the sheriffs were trying to relate to you is that we don't have we don't have capacity to deal with those people and quite frankly as a prosecutor right now, I'm not, I'm not we're not trying that's not one of our goals we've got
too many other things that we've got to deal with that we deem are a higher threat but but that's the position all law enforcement and incarceration jailers jails is we're having to triage everything and so for years I've talked to sheriffs about they'll call me and say hey, I've got this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. I need to release three of them who do you think are the best three to release? and and so you're you know and
that's just part of your day that you're spending on on these issues that that back up but I I think the simplest answer is there's no way for us to hold these people who aren't paying their fines who aren't paying the restitution accountable and you know without without that you know I don't I don't know I wish we could have work programs I would be in favor you know there's lots of things like say that we could talk about on another date that I'd really be in favor of but you know, right
Speaker 339
2:21:21
now if they're full of of prison inmates our county jails then
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:21:27
we we can't do anything about misdemeanor warrants and and I I think the bottom line is bed
is the answer we we know that bed's in the right place beds at the level they need to be community correction in and some other things being much less cost than maximum security type stuff but the the I just wondered about the Oklahoma Missouri
that that's that's just quite a bit different it's got to go to the prosecutor
Speaker 341
2:21:57
to be a warrant correct most of most of the time
Speaker 337
2:22:04
lot of those are going to be citations from a district judge you clarified that for me but you know there's
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:22:11
other things for whoever's remaining here just to get it on the the the agenda for future meetings that I I want to look into is our geriatric population
what is what is needed for them that we can be doing different that may be free up some beds. I talked to you about one a little while back an amputee and and I think
he's out now but he had been in before and he's out now so there's some of that but and and it's
clarified in here the the emergcy Pirs act hadn't been used since 2023 so we've got a a lot of reason we we know we need beds in and y'all need
alternatives too and I know you're fighting it all the time so appreciate your work you're always attentive to to me and in getting back with me and I appreciate that you and and we will reach out
Speaker 332
2:23:05
to Oklahoma and to Missouri and see what they're doing and and again some of those difference in how their charges are made versus Arkansas charge but we'll we'll reach out and get you some information before the next meeting would be good just including in the discussion we can do
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:23:18
that thank you yes senator I will reach out to my counterparts in
Speaker 344
2:23:22
both of those two states are there any other
states that you're aware of in that report ok we can certainly reach out to both of those states senator Tucker I was
excited because we were gonna move on but you're it's an easy one and these gentlemen know I
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:23:40
respect them and the work that they do and thank y'all for being here today. and I understand y'all's position. I mean I do I mean clearly we have too many state prisoners in county jails I mean you have to be blind not to see that even if you see different paths forward from that right? my question
for y'all is do you think we can build our way out of this problem or will it require other paths and we we can save what those paths might be for another day per the chairman's request but is it y'all's position that we we need more than
Speaker 332
2:24:14
just beds we definitely need more beds do we need other alternatives besides just beds yes I think there are other options that can be some future for the state of Arkansas but presently we we need the beds you know to protect Arkansas Act change the
dynamic and what we're seeing already is that dynamic's going to increase because of the changes in the sentencing about people being held longer in the department oforrections and we're not getting the full view of that at this time yet that's coming and so we know we're going to have more beds but we do need to have alternatives when we're this prosecutors are keenly aware of that and would love to participate in that it's I'm talking
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:24:51
about more than just diversion which I feel like you may be referring to. I'm also talking about programming in prisons for workforce training, education, mental health substance abuse to make
sure we're rehabilitating people so that they don't come back once they're released which 95% of them are you know that sort of thing so
Speaker 344
2:25:08
senator I believe we support anything that would help an individual get out and not have to go back absolutely is
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:25:15
it fair to say and y'all may tell me that as soon as protect was signed into law that it affected criminal behavior but we passed it in 23 and and it actually had an effective date of January1st,2025. and usually those are on the back end of the
Speaker 344
2:25:31
sentences so we really haven't fully seen the impact of theE Act yet haven't we? senator I don't think that we have
Speaker 336
2:25:41
now so part of theE Act did apply the year before that I think part of it applied in 2024. the rest of it in 2025, but I would still
Speaker 332
2:25:48
agree we haven't seen the the full effect yet. I think what we are seeing already though is how it's looked at by defendants because they know what's coming and I think it's made a difference in the conversations we have about police statements and about having to have jury trials on
those same charges because you know you go in to 100% on certain particular crimes and so your discussion is very different what
Speaker 352
2:26:08
do the years look like now versus having a jury trial to see what a jury
would do with that same charge. thank you thank you gentlemen for being here and for all that you do we'll have lindsey Wallace Secretary Department oforrections dexter Payne director division of corrections to come up and finish up unless this committee wants to recall
anybody the while they're coming I've got an important question for the committee
I appreciate all of you that have stayed and tried to follow the rules and
be attentive September30th we are we are set for a 1:30 meeting right now what I want to know is it is this room is available if we took it now to meet at 10 in the morning if we meet at
10 in the morning that does not mean that we're if you want to do that that does not mean we're gonna meet till noon and go home that means we will meet till noont 12:30 however it works and go to lunch and come back we're talking about possibly an all day meeting that as youF's heart this is gonna be a lot of witnesses some really important subjects about how do we reduce the bids and so you tell me do you want to come in at 1:30
and stay as late as it takes or you're gonna come in at 10 in the morning and stay as late as it takes
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:27:48
any discussion from the committee senator riss Mr chairir I'm fine with coming in 10 in the morning or 9 in the morning either one doing the whole day
whatever is needed and you can lock the doors until we can thrash some stuff out is fine with me but we need to get as many people's input on this and get some
some broader things I appreciate today. I think it's it's just what it should have been for the first day but we need we need some more indepth conversations and I think those are coming so I'm I'm for whatever time it takes thank you
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
2:28:27
p re s ent ative beatty I I was late arriving so I didn't hear the layout of the of the following meetings so September's
meeting will focus on I'll go over it again for everyone September's September's gonna focus on how
do we reduce the number of prison beds we need October's gonna follow up on that was we're gonna take some of those ideas and go deeper inoctober maybe we'll have to meet as long maybe not but September's gonna be the real brainstorming it's gonna be when we're gonna have everybody and then November is gonna be about possible solutions what do we do from
more prison beds here big prison all those type of things December will be still more of November but if this committee can agree on things with not not a thin majority trust me on this not only with a thin majority if this committee can agree on some things and and they don't have to be major things they can be minor things but if we can agree on some things we'll make some recommendations in december if we can't agree on anything we will just go into January with
more knowledge but that is the plan as it is today and we're still open to idea s that you have but but but that's the general plan so that when we get to January that this committee and hopefully the legislature has the knowledge they need to really make some good decisions going forward So just a question you
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
2:30:06
said that September meeting would be on how to reduce the bids that we we need have have we determined what
number of beds we need or well we we don't we're not looking at a number we're looking at things we can do from I'll just tell you Missouri has a and I don't know anything about it but Missouri has a stepd down program reentry their recidivism has dropped dramatically the discussion about geriatric and sick people do they need to continue to stay there's you know just so many different
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
2:30:47
things that can I understand where you're going now and I'm good with that that's something that every meeting these guys know I I I raised that
point so it's all good 10 o'clock 10 o'clock is
that is that the general OK we're gonna move the meeting till 10 o'clock and set it for as long as we need to go with a break for lunch unless for some reason we come no I'm not even gonna say that it ain't happening so it it's it's gonna be a long meeting ok thank y'all for
waiting uhu would you turn your mics on and introduce el and and what you represent who you represent for the record I'm dexter Payne I'm the director for
Speaker 359
2:31:28
the AdC. Lindseay Wallace, I'm the secretary for the department
Speaker 361
2:31:32
of Correction and thank you to Senator Clark. I asked if it was ok
Speaker 363
2:31:35
to bring my director of the sentencing commission with me since Wenddy Ware wasn't able to attend today. I thought she might be able
Speaker 361
2:31:42
to help some of the answer some of the questions that you guys had. thank you Mr Chairman. I'm Elaine Lee, director of the
sentencing commission. what would y'all like to tell
Speaker 363
2:31:55
us? I didn't prepare a statement but there were several questions that kind of came up during some of the earlier presentations some of those again were about the population projections. I know that there are questions about the type of beds that we need specifically SenatorRoss asked about those that are held
Speaker 366
2:32:10
beyond their transfer eligibility date. apologies. Those that are held beyond their transfer eligibility date. there were some questions about the EPAE Act impact some of
Speaker 363
2:32:23
those things and I felt like a miss Miss Lee could help answer some of those so I'm going to let her touch
Speaker 367
2:32:29
on some of those and if you have questions I'm happy to
Speaker 368
2:32:34
follow up on any of those. thank you and I will just let you know on the front end the projections that I'm speaking about today ended in calendar year 2024. So when I say these numbers that is the last year that we have a full calendar year of data for Miss Ware will have her most recent report to
us probably in November of this year that will cover through the end of calendar year 2025 which is where we will see a lot of the full impacts of theE actct so the things that I'm about to speak of ended in 2024 which again is the last year that we have those full projections on I know that there was a question or a statement made about individuals who stayed in custody passed their transfer eligibility date which is the first chance that they can transfer to parole and our most
recent count was 88% of people that were committed in 2024 did stay past their transfer eligibility date on an average of 9.6 months. so from the first time that they were transfer eligible until they could get out was almost 10 months past that initial date and I think the the number that was given was 83%. I'm not sure when that was from but the 88% is from 2024. another set of numbers talking about EPA our most recent data
shows that for the year 2013 through 2022 there was about 22,547 individuals released and that would average about 2250 a year and the last year that EPA was utilized was 2023 when 9ty5 individuals were released that has not been utilized since 2023. let's see we have 1653
individuals currently in our custody who have a controlling RE date you've heard about TE date which is transfer eligibility date RE is release eligibility date which is language that was implemented with the passage of the ProtE Act. so when we say that individuals have a controlling RE date 1653 of those as of today have a controlling RE date which means that they have a sentence that is directly impacted by the ProtE Act and again I expect that that number will grow. it
has grown as as time has gone on since 1125 and more and more offenses are subject to those sentencing requirements sentencing has remained stable. The projections do show that the length of stay has increased slightly, averaged AdC sentence was 9.5 years and it's up a little bit to 9.6 years but we still have about 80% compliance with our Arkansasenencing guidelines which is great. and the last bit of information
there is a jurisdictional count as of today 19,510 individuals in unit that is 16,0782 and the five year projection at the end of 2030 is 21,980 individuals in the department oforrections and that would be the jurisdictional account which is the first number I gave you. any any questions for me about
Speaker 364
2:35:56
numbers yeah I'm gonna go to central
rice quick but first those last numbers you gave you gave a higher number a lower number and then the projection the projection is based
Speaker 368
2:36:14
is reflects which of those two numbers jurisdictional count which
is what they use in their projection
Speaker 364
2:36:21
risdictional count was currently it is
19,510 increase is the projection trust your math yes about
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:36:35
thank you Mr chair thank y'all for being here and I do realize TE date is is just a national but and I probably didn't state that good but I I had received reports of people thinking that they
were being held longer your testimony today is roughly 88% was within six months of the TE date is that not what I heard sir 88%
Speaker 368
2:37:05
of individuals that were committed in our last projections stayed past their first TE date. so just hypothetically speaking if someone has a TE date of 1126. they went in front of the postprison transfer board on 1126. they were denied transfer to postre release supervision. So anything past 1126 would be time spent in custody past their initial TE
date and the average of that 88%
Speaker 376
2:37:40
is 9.6 months past their original TE
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:37:45
date. no one's is anyone's release date been changed if they were already incarcerated sentenced and incarcerated did is anything changed in their release date with this legislation we passed that that is for stricter incarceration terms. has that changed anybody that
Speaker 363
2:38:09
was already in the system Only if they received new time. so then they may have a blend of different laws that governs their senates. OK and have any
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
2:38:20
of y'all been instructed or received any direction to change any release dates in other words to hold people longer than than you have in the past so any any anybody that has that in their mind your testimony
today that's not not happening we're not backing people up in county jails sir
that day came getting that in public statement off the off the board Mrard the last
thing I I'll just relay has to do with prison beds recently went to Louisiana to visit family happens to be in the same parishes and go to prison and I've got a relative down
there that's leading law enforcement and I was inquisitive in that because we had proposed a large prison that prison was designed for like6200 beds I said what's what what's it holding right now he said pretty steady at3,500. and I said if you got I said not you he's not in the he's not in that part of law enforcement I said do they have employment problem he said yeah just like everywhere they've I said what's your other
industries around here got small nuclear plant they've got a a coal fired generation plant they're building one of the big data centers down there and then they've got their tourism and and all that it's this is half hour more out of Baton rouge so they they they ' re close to the city and I got on the website and looked and they're paying their their recruiting people from51,000 to92,000. they have a need so when we're talking about beds
just sticking a big prison in one place if you can't get people every day to work it's
not gonna fix it so I appreciate that'll be our subject in
november realize but I'm getting that out I appreciate the discussion because it's gonna take all of the above and man I'm I'm openly receiving all the inputs thank y'all. en ator King thank you
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
2:40:37
Mr. Chair M Wallace I notice with the emails that just came out about that you're looking at expanding cs other options right now and
so have you included all the board of corrections members in on that conversation where they included in
Speaker 363
2:40:55
that senator King, thank you for the question. not at this juncture because I I feel like it's premature. obviously since our plan to to build a new prison wasn't funded we needed to start looking at some alternatives because as everybody has heard today we we obviously need bed space. So this was my staff director painyne included
several other folks just discussing ideas that might be available. we haven't vetted all of those and obviously when it gets to the point of presenting to the board ideas we're going to do that we just had not gotten to that point yet. So
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
2:41:33
what's your internal deadline and in looking at the session coming up and you got budget hearings that
are fixing to start here pretty quickly what is your timeline on moving about discussion options are you within three weeks gonna include
all commission members or you what's what's the including public comment because I've got now let's open back up there's counties that are wanting facilities andenting I don't think that's on the
subject of do we need more beds well it's it's about these counties
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
2:42:03
wanting to step up and build more beds or have in the mix. I don't know what else that and in November we're going to get into
those issues. OK, well I'll send you a private email but
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
2:42:16
I'm I'm disturbed that you're not including everybody
in this but hopefully you will. Representative gonzalez
Gordon Watkins
Unverified
2:42:23
thank you Mr chairir. So the Malvern facility is y'all's intake facility, right? So every every state prisoner has to be processed through that facility so males yes ok so that seems to be like a a point where it's kind of a a roadblock there that we've hit. have y'all looked at any ways to to be able to discharge people straight out of the county jails that they don't have to be processed through transferred
Speaker 388
2:42:50
over there and processed through there so there's actually already a process on the books the postprison
Speaker 363
2:42:57
transfer board sort of governs that process. Obviously if they have never been to the department of Corrections they have to come through intake so we can fingerprint them so we can do their assessments and all of those things with thetect Arkansas Act. obviously in the recidivism reductionystem Act that uhpresentative beatty mentioned earlier there's a programming component. So the goal right is to to fix the recidivism problem and there's not a lot of county
jails that offer programming for whatever reason. there are some Garland County was one that I was actually going to give kudos to because they do offer programming and we just had some conversations with our committee that assigns programming credits so that when inmates come to us from Garland County and they've completed those programs they get credit for them so they don't have to come back in and and take things they've already taken at the the county level. but that kind of creates a little nuance if they're not able to get the programming at the county level.
I mean you've heard all of the county sheriffs sort of testify that's not what they're designed for typically. So there is a mechanism in law that does allow that but there are some issues with with doing that. so you don't use that at all? Um,
Speaker 368
2:44:14
I don't know. do you know if Kevin if they use that I know that we have had two that we have released straight from county who's jail credit covered the entirety of their DOC
sentence but those were for offenses that were preprotect Act and so as Secretary Wallace mentioned the programming component is something that is is just sort of a roadblock for us in Garland County has made steps to alleviate that by their educational programming that they complete at the county they can carry over if if you will when they come to Department of Corrections but those preprotect actc who have completed their sentences in county jail. we have had two recently that have released straight
Speaker 376
2:44:50
from county. I think part of the problem if I can
Speaker 361
2:44:55
just expound because I remember having a conversation about this was that the postprison transfer board they send commissioners out, they like to interview these folks in
Speaker 363
2:45:03
person to kind of get a gauge on whether or not they feel like they should be released and so I'm umm they are statutorily independent from anything with the department oforrections so they would be able to answer you more clearly related to that yes sir well it just seems like I hear
Gordon Watkins
Unverified
2:45:20
this TE date and the people being held past the TE
date in county jails and so it would just make sense to me if you could discharge them from from the county jail and not holding there if you can discharge them with their TE date and that's you know, appropriate thing to do. I realize that's that's not our like a set in stone release date but if that is your goal and it seems like that's what what y'all are talking about too like it is your goal because you're you you know how many have been held past that or what percentage whatever anyway that's all I was wondering thank you Senator Tucker
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
2:45:59
thank you Mr chairir. this is partly on what you were talking about Miss Lee and this would probably be more for Miss Lane Secretary Wallace, Mr. Payne you're you're off the hook and this may be partly for another meeting Mr Chair and so I just I kind of want to ask if if this is something that y'all want to have a further conver or or at least interested in having a further conversation about it and that is some reform to the grid and I I'll tell you a little bit about what I mean a lot of our boxes in the grid, like if you're convicted of a class C felony for example, then your presumptive sentence
the statutory sentence length is3 to10 years and so the box would say36 to120 months. I don't think we should completely emulate the federal system. Theres some good things, some bad things about the federal system but in the federal ss this is one place where maybe we may want to take a look at it and the federal system the presumptive sentence range would be much narrower than that and of course judges have the authority to go outside of that box but they need a reason for doing so and they can't just do it willing nilly and I've I've long wondered if if maybe our sentencing grid
should could use some reform in that kind of way and
I'm just curious about y'all's thoughts on that. Sen Tuckeru would you mind
if you help me get them back in September and October for that discussion do y'all mind waiting? OK but great question though I just still got a long list here and some of us want to go homeentimmon thank you Mr chairir my
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
2:47:35
questions revolve around staffing and in particular security officer staffing. can you speak to how the difficulty of retaining security officers of impacts
Speaker 31
2:47:45
you know how many beds we actually need yes sir thank you for
Speaker 401
2:47:53
that question. of course we are short staffed that that's no secret at all. So in order to adequately secure those
facilities yes we definitely need to hire staff so that's that's a that's definitely a problem staffing them and and that that pertains to the number of inmates you have at each facility too. So with staffing is down then we cannot house as many do
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
2:48:19
they have to be transferred to other places that have more staff or how is that handled? Well hopefully we won't get
Speaker 401
2:48:29
been at that point at one at one time at the Tucker facility I think it was spoke of earlier today but we
hope not to get to that point where we have
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
2:48:39
to transfer them to other facilities and I was looking at the shared services report comparing them from like March, March and June and I noticed there were as far as security security positions in March or no in February there were 2472 security positions total in June it's listed there's only 2,078 security positions so why did we lose almost400 security positions in just a few months
Speaker 363
2:49:08
so right now we have about close to400 probably entry level security positions that are vacant as part of the annual AOP is what we call an annual operations planning. we look at what we have on the books. obviously if we are not able to sustain keeping those positions filled consistently um, I know Director Payne would love to have 800 people that are working for him but what happens when you have those vacancies and you don't continue filling them.
there is a certain dollar amount that is tied up in your budget whether you fill it or not and so when you're looking at budgeting and and where the money makes the most sense what we landed upon was getting to a certain number of positions because you put that $8000 8000 dollars per position whether they stay vacant for a day or an entire year. That money has to remain open and when you've got that many that adds up to millions of dollars and so when you're
talking about trying to spend money in the budget appropriately for me it was until we can get to sort of this baseline position where we can keep these filled or start even getting close to them then it made more sense to unbudget them. there's a process for going and getting them back into our budget we just have to divert funding elsewhere. This is complicated. I know it took me a long time to understand this so I'm happy to talk through it or my CFfo is here if you want better understanding of
it but that was essentially what we did during
Speaker 407
2:50:41
our annual operations planning where we have to present a balanced budget and get our money where it needs to be to operate. would it be
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
2:50:49
fair to say these vacancies are mostly because most of the facilities are out in rural areas where there's not a lot of population and it's very difficult to
Speaker 384
2:50:58
feel a lot of them a lot of them are for sure a lot of them is turnover you know retention is a thing
Speaker 363
2:51:04
I think we have sort of discussed at this committee and and other places with the board finding
people to hire isn't necessarily always the problem it's keeping them after so this is not a great business to work in in a lot of cases but I think that goes to culture. I think it goes to a lot of things that we at this committee are talking aboutgraming, creating safer spaces for inmates and officers to work in. It's looking at a holistic approach to corrections. so we're looking at all of that and addressing all of that you and thank you Mr
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
2:51:34
Chair just one last question if I may just to kind of follow up on what Senator King said to understand if we need more
prison beds I think it's important for this committee to know if there are other plans in place already and just I just want to read this directly so I don't misquote it but the article last week said Franklin Countyrison proposal canceled officialcials working on plans to expand existing prisons is that an accurate statement? as far as the ranklin
Speaker 363
2:52:02
County project being canceled, I don't believe that is an accurate statement. I think we like I said earlier, given that we did not have funding to move forward
with that project. We had a governor's letter, governor Sandered very clearly said we cannot use that75 million whatever was remaining of that on the Franklin County project. so that being said we're looking at other alternatives while we talk about the larger issue of the bed space, the funding for the Franklin County projector whatever the case may be. so the the email exchange I think that was quoted as it being canceled. that was from one of our fiscal folks. they saw it
and quite frankly that's probably what they understood it to be because their numbers folks and that is very clearly we can't spend any more money on this project. So in their mind I think that's what they expected it to be but nobody has said that we haven't discussed that we very clearly need to have more beds yes sir OK we've got a few more people
I'm gonna say it one more time and then we're gonna start early next time the we had one subject
today do we need prison beds I do not care where I appreciate centreimmon being from
Franklin County and allowed some leeway but I do not care where they are I don't think it helps the discussion today where they are what we want to what we want
to know is do we need prison beds and then we want to know what we can do
to reduce prison beds and then we'll get to solutions and so I hope nobody left in line has got anything other than on whether we need prison beds or not and along those lines uhs representative McCullough thank you Mrir I just wanted
Representative Tippi McCullough
Unverified
2:54:14
to ask about our current condition of our facilities are we in good shape to where we're not gonna between aging or HvaC problems or plumbing problems or everything that you need to maintain our current facilities. are there any problems that as we've talked about is there's talk about building new prisons are our current facilities in any jeopardy of losing prison beds in the process. thank you for the question. obviously we have some very old
Speaker 363
2:54:44
prisons and we have some infrastructure issues we are assessing those sort of as part of this process is part of an ongoing process. We have a director of maintenance and construction. he is working constantly to try to figure out what is going on. We have we have some roofing issues but we're working on addressing those roofing issues. We recently advertised to hire a specific licensed roofer in the department and and you guys talk about workforce and programming. we
are trying what we can to try to figure out how to address those issues as well. the one thing we talked about specific to roofing is hiring a licensed roofer because that's an expense when we put something out for bid on a roof we need to replace an entire roof we have to hire a roofer to come in even if we selfperform it then it's an added expense for us that we have to have a licensed roofer that comes in and oversees all of this. So what we are proposing to do specific to roofing that's just one example is hire a licensed
roofer that can embed with us we can we can use inmate crews which we do now we use that to to create cost savings and get them some certificates too so that when they do leave that's one of the things we do teach is roofing but get them some certificates so that they leave and they have a certificate and can go to work immediately roofing. our wastewater we I think everybody knows we have aging infrastructure on wastewater. we're working on addressing that it's a pretty significant amount of money that we need to address.
and we're working on getting a loan so that we can just tackle all of those issues some of the the questions I think about capacity and if there's anything else we could do at any of our existing facilities if we can fix some of those specific infrastructure issues some of the answers to some of those are yeah we could probably do some more we've got some north central unit has been mentioned a couple of times. there's a wastewater issue there if we can address the wastewater issue then there is an opportunity for us to put something up there we've talked about reentry
reentry is something that we need more of and given the staffing up there, I think it would be a great and they've got a lot of community support too so having something up there, I mean all options are on the table at this point it's just trying to figure out where it makes the most sense, most efficient, best place to
Speaker 361
2:57:03
put it and the most bang for our buck for lack of a better term. thank you yes ma'am entreblake Johnson thank
Speaker 240
2:57:12
you guys for being here. I just kind of on the infrastructure issue
Speaker 239
2:57:19
so I just googled some of some of your facilities and the cumins unit started in 1902 from what history tells me there was not a brick and mortar facility there until 1949 it was tenttood and and what you have now is about 1980. is that is that correct yes sir it's pretty close. so that thing's about as old as I am shortly
and Tucker started in 1916 and and some construction was in'72 and and'83 was when it became a max is that right? that's
Speaker 240
2:58:04
two different facilities yeah I know tucker yeah I know Tucker but it's but it's tucker began and in you know
Speaker 239
2:58:11
a different time frame and what you have now is about 1983, right? sir that's correct so
that's your facilities no matter what your newest facility is about my son's age, which is 98 and that's the north central unit is that right? Watashita 2 didn't google but still yet that's that's what you're dealing with is is almost 30 years on every everything so it's pretty easy for me to tell that no matter if you're if your
population is not being fitted into what you have now. you have almost 50 year old facilities fit between50 and30 year old facilities. so if no other answer comes along that tells you you need a facility yes sir to that point you
Speaker 384
2:59:09
know if if something does change the recidivism is cut drastically we change the way policy
Speaker 363
2:59:15
is handled in the state. it would still be phenomenal for from us from our perspective that we would have a
newer facility to pivot if we had the opportunity to but let me just say while we're on that yes they're old we do great work our offenders, our maintenance staff, we do phenomenal work keeping them up. we are ACA accre di ted and we are working on our PRa compliance right now so
Speaker 361
2:59:41
that is I wanted to put that feather in our cap out there because that's a big
Speaker 240
2:59:47
deal too we appreciate you know what y'all's done to maintain those facilities but we also have a responsibility and and
updating something else Representative ladyman you're gonna be last thank you
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
3:00:03
chairman and I'll try to stick to the subject that you wanted us to talk about
y'all may not remember this but back I think it was uhrector Payne you may remember this back when governor Hutchinson back in 2017,2019 ask us in the legislature approved to send people out of state to private prisons because we needed beds
back then. What what happened to that we don't do that anymore. what what's the situation here? do
Speaker 401
3:00:34
you do you know about that? Yes sir. I appreciate the question we did contract with Bowie County, Texas to send inmates out with that contract ended doing COVID there was a contract dispute about them following the guidelines that we put in place for vaccinations and medical care and the contract was ended
at that at that time so
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
3:00:58
is that still an option not not just that prison or that company but maybe other companies to to help us not have to build more beds or maybe as a short term you know we've talked about the problem but the problem is now to build a prison we're talking a number of
years the I hope you will help me help people here in November to talk
about the possibility of out of state prisons private prisons all those are solutions and and so again I realize y'all don't know what all is in my mind but that's I I wanna talk about all of again I'm
I'll I'll help to help help to get anybody to talk about those things'll hold that back till then got one more
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
3:01:45
question if I might. and I don't know whether y'all have this or not but so when we talk about what the need for beds and the numbers there's a handout here
it's uhh3 it's on page six and my question is the growth of people in prison so from 201el to 2021 the number grew by 1000 in that 10 year period in 22 to31 they say the projected to grow 2000 twice as much but my second question is from 2021 to2022, the number grew by 2000 people in that one year
according to this chart. what happened
Speaker 392
3:02:37
in 2021? I apologize. I'm not sure what handout you're talking about it was
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
3:02:42
one of the attachments the exhibits yeah it was E3 on page six at the bottom there's two charts there or well one chart two pages oops
ri s population chart historical I think
Speaker 388
3:03:06
that's the rebound fromOVId from the COVID years there was a kind of a slowing down
Speaker 363
3:03:12
of the court system and processing things so we had a lower amount of folks. I mean that it kind of tracks with our county jail backup numbers I've got a chart dating back to 2020 I can show you this afterwards it is a huge dip in county jail and I think that that will correlate with the
time frame you're talking about with our population. I believe that's the COVID rebound
Speaker 407
3:03:37
that you're seeing there because our our position our prison population was reduced drastically due toOVID.
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
3:03:43
thank you for that. So do y'all have any reason why the past 10 years was up 100% over the previous 10 years the you got any idea on why that is the growth went from 1010 years to 2010 years.
Speaker 377
3:04:03
don't know the answer to that. I I really do think that at an upcoming
Speaker 363
3:04:07
meeting if if you can give her enough notice that it would be truly helpful to have Wendy Ware here. she's been doing our prison population projections for probably decades two decades now. so she's very familiar and she does them at a lot of different states. She knows things on a national level and I think it'll be very beneficial to y'all to be able to ask a lot of these questions of her right thank you for that thank you Mr Chairman Unfortunate that she could not
be here today we had planned on her being here and she had to be out of state so
we will definitely include her at a later time members thank you thank you for your diligence and your patience September30th at 10 o'clock a.m. is the plan if you know people who have are associated with reentry ministries anything that has to do with how we would reduce
recidivism that's one of the things things we can do if you know somebody that can come talk to us about ankle bracelets for for for minor offenses anything we are interested in because prison beds is not gonna more prison beds is not gonna be the only answer we're not gonna be able in my opinion to afford all the prison beds that we're going to need if we don't do a lot of alternate things and so we
need to look at what those alternate things could be should be and we want to hear want to hear from everybody and that will be tiring but hopefully productive so thank you any questions regarding this next meeting or going forward from the committee Representative beatty I just saw you were lit up so Mr. Chair, I I just want to know if we if we got
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
3:06:05
the answer. do we need more beds?
I thought it was a resounding yes that's all I needed thank you
sir I think it was a resounding yes which gives us the foundation then to go forward to how do we reduce the number and we will talk about all the things that we could possibly do and you know how those things meet you know do you do more beds first before you can get to the point that you need less beds etc you know we'll we'll that's
where we'll be in November to talk about all which will be another robust discussion and then we'll see in December if we all hate each other or or if we can actually come up with some answers without objection we are adjourned
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Comments by Chairs
C. Consideration to Approve September 30, 2025, Meeting Minutes [Exhibit C]
D. Consideration to Approve December 11, 2025, Meeting Minutes (House) [Exhibit D]
E. Discussion of Prison Beds in Arkansas [Exhibits E1-E3]
F. Other Business
G. Adjournment
Documents
Speakers
Senator Alan Clark Chair
Unverified
Senator Jamie Scott
Unverified
Speaker 7
Speaker 29
Lee Watson
Unverified
Speaker 34
Speaker 36
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
Speaker 49
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
Speaker 65
Speaker 66
Speaker 70
Senator Clarke Tucker
Unverified
Speaker 77
Speaker 108
Senator Brad Simon
Unverified
Speaker 128
Representative Jimmy Gazaway
Unverified
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
Speaker 144
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
Speaker 28
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
Representative Tippi McCullough
Unverified
Speaker 149
Speaker 162
Speaker 31
Representative Carol Dalby
Unverified
Speaker 180
Speaker 183
Speaker 190
Speaker 191
Speaker 193
Speaker 195
Speaker 201
Speaker 202
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
Speaker 208
Speaker 200
Speaker 199
Speaker 211
Speaker 239
Speaker 240
Speaker 247
Speaker 248
Speaker 140
Representative Tara Shephard
Unverified
Speaker 269
Sarah Moore
Unverified
Speaker 274
Speaker 282
Speaker 284
Gordon Watkins
Unverified
Speaker 287
Speaker 227
Speaker 306
Speaker 311
Speaker 317
Senator Dan Sullivan
Unverified
Speaker 321
Speaker 332
Speaker 333
Speaker 336
Speaker 339
Speaker 341
Speaker 337
Speaker 344
Speaker 352
Speaker 359
Speaker 361
Speaker 363
Speaker 366
Speaker 367
Speaker 368
Speaker 364
Speaker 365
Speaker 376
Speaker 388
Speaker 401
Speaker 403
Speaker 407
Speaker 384
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
Speaker 392
Speaker 377