Joint Budget Committee
Video
Transcript
7 documents
Bills discussed (19)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
|
SB132
Act 535
· 5 mentions in transcript, agenda
Matched: “…tem C1. This is by Senator English. This is an amendment to Senate Bill 132. This is the approved claims Bill. This changes the source…”
|
AN ACT TO MAKE AN APPROPRIATION FOR THE PAYMENT OF APPROVED CLAIMS. | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB132 is now Act 535 |
|
SB93
Act 1010
· 5 mentions in transcript, agenda
Matched: “…item is item C3, that's on page 8 in your packet. This is a Senate Bill 93 Department of Education. This adds a new appropriation sect…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 FISCAL YEAR. | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB93 is now Act 1010 |
|
HB1200
Act 791
· 3 mentions in transcript, agenda
Matched: “…r packet. Governor's letter number 36. This is amendment to House Bill 1200 Department of Energy and Environment, Environmental quality…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENT - DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY APPROPRIATION … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that HB1200 is now Act 791 |
|
SB106
Act 898
· 3 mentions in transcript, agenda
Matched: “…o item C2. This is amendment by Representative Kavanaugh to Senate Bill 106, Department of Agriculture. This creates $136,000 increase…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 FISCAL YEAR. | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB106 is now Act 898 |
|
SB354
· 3 mentions in agenda, transcript
Matched: “…Division of Aging, Adult, and Behavioral Health Services 5. SB354 by Senator Dismang and Representative Jean – Department of…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS - DIVISION OF CORRECTION DEVELOPMENT AND ENHANCEMENT CAPITAL … | J. Dismang | Died on the Senate Budget Calendar Having Failed … |
|
SB92
Act 777
· 3 mentions in agenda, transcript
Matched: “…ons-Division of Correction D. Governor’s Letters 1. GL#27 – SB92 – Department of Transformation and Shared Services-Arkansas…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSFORMATION AND SHARED SERVICES APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 FISCAL … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB92 is now Act 777 |
|
HB1202
Act 1006
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “…met on Tuesday, March 18th. We adopted three amendments to House Bill 1202, which is the Department of Finance Administration, uh, dis…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION - DISBURSING OFFICER APPROPRIATION FOR THE … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that HB1202 is now Act 1006 |
|
HB1389
Act 547
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “…d 3 bills out of special language back to budget committee, House Bill 1389, the”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES - DIVISION OF DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES SERVICES - … | Ladyman | Notification that HB1389 is now Act 547 |
|
HB1577
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “DHS division of Developmental disabilities, Jonesboro HCC House Bill 1577 Department of Commerce Insurance Department and House Bill…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE - STATE INSURANCE DEPARTMENT - GRANTS FOR PERPETUAL … | Crawford | Died in House Committee at Sine Die adjournment. |
|
HB1635
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “…e Bill 1577 Department of Commerce Insurance Department and House Bill 1635 DFNA dispersing it's a grant for teaching veteran hospital…”
|
AN ACT FOR A GRANT FOR AN ARKANSAS TEACHING VETERINARIAN HOSPITAL AT THE LITTLE ROCK … | McCullough | Died in House Committee at Sine Die adjournment. |
|
SB392
Act 499
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “…l in favor say aye. Any opposed members in that report, uh, Senate Bill 392 is, uh, ready to be due passes amended.”
|
TO AMEND ARKANSAS LAW CONCERNING THE CLASSIFICATION AND COMPENSATION OF STATE EMPLOYEES; AND TO DECLARE … | B. Davis | Notification that SB392 is now Act 499 |
|
HB1089
Act 618
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…cation 3. GL#29 – SB93 – Department of Education 4. GL#30 – HB1089 – Department of Commerce-Arkansas Waterways Commission 5. G…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE - ARKANSAS WATERWAYS COMMISSION APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that HB1089 is now Act 618 |
|
HB1115
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…tment of Commerce-Division of Workforce Services 8. GL#34 – HB1115 – Department of Commerce-Arkansas Rehabilitation Services 9…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE - ARKANSAS REHABILITATION SERVICES APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 … | Joint Budget Committee | Died in House Committee at Sine Die adjournment. |
|
HB1191
Act 619
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…ent of Commerce-Arkansas Rehabilitation Services 9. GL#35 – HB1191 – Department of Public Safety-Arkansas Crime Lab 10. GL#36…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 FISCAL YEAR. | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that HB1191 is now Act 619 |
|
SB25
Act 607
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…rtment of Commerce-Arkansas Waterways Commission 5. GL#31 – SB25 – Department of Commerce-State Insurance Department 6. GL#3…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE - STATE INSURANCE DEPARTMENT APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB25 is now Act 607 |
|
SB36
Act 890
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…ducation 4. Amendment LCW048 by Representative Cavenaugh to SB36 – Department of Human Services- Division of Aging, Adult, a…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES - DIVISION OF AGING, ADULT, AND BEHAVIORAL … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB36 is now Act 890 |
|
SB37
Act 608
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…epartment of Commerce-State Insurance Department 6. GL#32 – SB37 – Department of Commerce 7. GL#33 – SB39 – Department of Co…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE APPROPRIATION FOR THE 2025-2026 FISCAL YEAR. | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB37 is now Act 608 |
|
SB39
Act 609
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…artment 6. GL#32 – SB37 – Department of Commerce 7. GL#33 – SB39 – Department of Commerce-Division of Workforce Services 8.…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE - DIVISION OF WORKFORCE SERVICES APPROPRIATION FOR THE … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB39 is now Act 609 |
|
SB88
Act 610
· 1 mention in agenda
Matched: “…s-Arkansas Geographic Information Systems Office 2. GL#28 – SB88 – Department of Education-Division of Higher Education 3. G…”
|
AN ACT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION - DIVISION OF HIGHER EDUCATION APPROPRIATION FOR THE … | Joint Budget Committee | Notification that SB88 is now Act 610 |
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All right, members, if you get in your seats, we're going to start in one minute.
all right all right members we're going to call joint budget order we're going to do a little housekeeping first to kind of let you know what how this is going to flow today we do have committees at 10 o'clock we're going to pass over to item 5 c5 we're going to do that at the very end we're going
to take care of our other business on the front end and when we get to item 5 we're going to have a question per member and a follow-up and then we're going to move on to somebody else to get plenty everybody have opportunity we're not going to let today three four five six questions go so a question and one follow-up get out of it then when you can get back in the queue if we have time our our plan is to get to uh 9 35 to have discussion on the bill after we have all the
questions and testimony and then from members and then uh have had the debate and try to have the debate by 9 50 so we can be out to our a and b committees at 10 o'clock so anyway with that we're going to get started with item B1. Let me get up here on discussions. Senator Davis, are you giving
Senator Breanne Davis
Unverified
2:09
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The JBC personnel subcommittee met
Tuesday, March 18th. The committee suspended the rules to add an amendment to the pay plan that only added an additional sponsor. The committee adopted the amendment, then adopted a motion of due pass as amended for the pay plan bill. The committee also took up a member amendment for ASU Jonesboro to rectify an error that had inadvertently admitted three existing positions from the budget manual during the fall hearings. I move adoption of the report at the proper time. We have adoption of
the report. Do we have a second? We have a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye.
Aye. Any opposed? Members, in that report, Senate Bill 392 is ready to be due passed as amended. Do I have a motion? I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Amendment is adopted as due passed as amended.
Special language, Representative Johnson, you're recognized to give the report. Thank you,
Representative Lee Johnson
Unverified
3:07
Mr. Chair. Special language met on Tuesday, March 18th. We adopted three amendments to House Bill 1202, which is the Department of Finance Administration.
dispersing officer. We also released three bills out of special language back-to-budget committee, House Bill 1389, the DHS Division of Developmental Disabilities, Jonesboro HCC, House Bill 1577, Department of Commerce Insurance Department, and House Bill 1635, DF&A, dispersing as a grant for teaching veteran hospital at the Little Rock Zoo. You'll find these attachments from the adopted subcommittee report, pages 2 through 8, and I move for adoption of the report. I have a motion
to adopt the special language report.
Do I have a second? I have a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Report is adopted. We're going to B3. Senator Hammer, you have that
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
4:00
report. You are recognized, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The peer review subcommittee met yesterday, March 19th. The subcommittee received reports, reviewed requests, and approved the following. Various temporary appropriations, American Rescue Plan Act appropriation, and a restricted reserve fund transfer, and I move for the adoption of the report.
You've heard the report. I've got a motion to adopt. Do I have a second? Do I have a second? Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Report is adopted. We're going to item C-1. Mr. Anderson, you want to give
Speaker 23
4:31
a brief description? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Item
Speaker 24
4:33
C-1, this is by Senator English. This is an amendment to Senate Bill 132. This is the approved claims bill. This changes the source of funds for Veterans Affairs to a cash fund from GR. You good to go, Senator English?
All right. Do we have a motion to adopt the amendment? I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Amendment is adopted. Mr. Anderson. And Senate Bill 132 is ready. Due pass is amended. Do we have a motion? I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye.
Speaker 24
5:13
Any opposed? Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That takes us to item C2. This is an amendment by Representative Kavanaugh to Senate Bill 106, Department of Agriculture. This creates a $136,000 increase for the 68 county fares.
Representative Kavanaugh, hold on. Push the wrong button. You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. What this
Representative Frances Cavenaugh
Unverified
5:37
does is keep AYE at $48,000 and then give each county fair $2,000. And inside the Department of Ag, they already have money to cover part of this cost. How much part? How much? About $30,000. Okay. So it's about $100,000 hit. Out of GR? It would be out of, I'd have to find the funding.
Okay. All right. You've heard the explanation. Is this ready?
We need a motion on the amendment. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Amendment is adopted. Mr. Anderson.
Speaker 24
6:21
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next item is item C3. That's on page 8 in your packet. This is the Senate Bill 93, Department of Education. This adds a new appropriation section for $1 million out of cash funds.
All right. I don't see Lee here. Any discussion on this amendment? It's not GR. We'll have to find it out of cash funds. Do we have a motion to adopt? A motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Mr. Anderson? Thank you,
Speaker 24
6:57
Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Item C-4. It's on page 12. This has special language. Go to special language subcommittee.
We'll skip over five to the end. We're going to start on the governor's
letters. I think we've got three governor's letters
Speaker 24
7:13
we need to make action on. Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Item D1 is governor's letter number 27. That's on page 1. This is an amendment to Senate Bill 92, Transformation and Shared Services Geographic Information Systems Office. It adds an appropriation for $450,000. Any questions on
governor's letter 27? Seeing none, we have a motion and a second.
Any discussion? All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Let's
Speaker 24
7:43
skip down to Governor's Letter 29. Mr. Chairman, Governor's Letter 29 is on page 7 in your packet. This is an amendment to Senate Bill 93, Department of Education, to add various appropriations for adequacy costs. Okay. Any
questions on Governor's Letter 29? We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? But we're going to skip down to Governor's letter 36.
Speaker 24
8:11
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is on page 51 in your packet, Governor's letter number 36. This is an amendment to House Bill 1200, Department of Energy and Environmental Quality. This adds a federal appropriation for $1.5 million, and it adds a cash fund appropriation
for $5 million. Any question on Governor's letter 36? Seeing none, I have a motion and a second. any discussion all in favor say aye
any opposed governor 36 is adopted members on governor's
letter 28 it has special language we'll send that to special language on governor letter 30 it has personnel in it we'll send that to personnel subcommittee as well as governor letter 31 it will go to personnel governor letter 32 has personnel and special language we'll send those to both those committees and also governor letter seven well governor letter 33 has personnel and special language we're skipping over governor letter 34 and governor's letter 35 has personnel
and we'll send that to personnel and that does it till we get all right we're back down on item five this is senate bill 354 senator dismaying you're
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
9:27
recognized thank you mr chairman uh members uh just a brief history on this i think we're all aware but on february 27th there was a governor's letter that would have uh that was an appropriation or allowed for the create bless you allowed for an appropriation uh for the amount that had previously been allocated roughly 330 million
dollars this committee did not approve that and i think the major understanding that i and my chair had uh was from the committee that they wanted to know the amount so there was a letter produced uh from the consultant estimating the total cost of the prison to be 825 million dollars we already have 75 million dollars set aside and so this appropriation reflects the remaining estimated construction cost of 750 million dollars again just on the timeline history we wanted to make sure
that members that had questions had time to ask those questions from the appropriate entity whether it be the department of corrections or the governor's office or dfa and so this bill was originally filed on march 3rd so that those questions could be asked uh you know to the again the appropriate entities uh but with that i will stop and we'll move on to the question portion all right just save time if
if the department will come up to the table
Speaker 26
10:58
uh dfna y'all need to come to the table well
we may need some financial questions to ask and when everybody gets the table identify yourselves and then we've got questions ready to go and remember members one question one follow-up get out of the queue so other people can ask questions and we'll come back to you
Speaker 47
11:27
jim hudson secretary dfa robert breck dfa good
Speaker 49
11:32
morning joe profiri advisor office of the governor okay
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
11:36
first question is senator hickey you're recognize, sir? Yes, sir. Mine's not for that. Mine was for Senator Dismang. He said that we
were going to have a timeline since this was happening. If you wouldn't mind, Senator Dismang, would you go ahead and talk about the amendment that I had and how it was failed this morning and what it did so that the members fully understand that? Because that is part of what has transpired in the timeline.
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
11:58
Senator Hickey has introduced a couple of different amendments. There was an initial amendment i think that uh was this you can explain your own amendments
yeah but there was an amendment that was presented in special
language this morning there was a motion by senator hickey to adopt the amendment and there was no second for the amendment so the amendment died for
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
12:22
fail of a second thanks since we're saying what what all has transpired the amendment that i had would have set up two separate accounts one of them would have been for 750 million dollars which was exactly what the appropriation was and it was not going to increase that appropriation then we were going to have another set aside account for
250 million dollars that was going to say for prison construction and contingencies which in the event that we had any cost overruns that that money could come out of that but in addition a lot of the sheriffs and the county judges are saying that you know with the way this prison is probably going to take four to five years to build, that there's a possibility that we may have to go out and try to find some short-term beds somewhere. The money could come out of that. What that would allow us to do, because there's been a whole lot of talk and
controversy here as far as whether or not we can build this prison or not. The governor is adamant with me that she feels like she can. I don't know that anybody can predict where we're going to be you know with how long this is going to be and the way the economy is right now again we have the money right now the reason that i want to do that is we're spending a lot of money down here i want to make sure that we had the cash available from now to the end that we can park that money and it would be there and we would never have to do anything different or
try to take something out of one of our catastrophic funds or the arkansas fund so that thank you senator
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
13:58
and members i probably should have clarified this is appropriation only there is
no direct funding tied to this we do have a set aside for 330 million dollars uh at this current moment i am certain as we do at the conclusion of every session we will have an extensive discussion about how much additional dollars should be allocated to have in hand for
the prison. One of the things to keep in mind, both with that fund and what we do moving forward at this point, that fund has a three-fifths vote requirement by ALC. So again, there is technically no funding tied to this appropriation. This is an appropriation, which is the estimated cost of the prison, which is the responsibility of the governor's office to bring forward or actually say the Department of Corrections. So we keep saying
it's governor's office, but this is an action of the department of corrections uh for a capital project
senator king you're recognized for a question and a follow-up
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
14:58
thank you mr chair so mr perveria
have you been getting my emails that i've
Speaker 62
15:04
been sending to you i get several emails i i believe that i may have gotten some emails from you you
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
15:11
so you have got some emails from me
i have received emails from you yes sir so i haven't received any answers that i know of so i asked a question like the board of corrections that gave the 75 million for the calico rock expansion and then uh there was my understanding was that you or the governor's office or somebody that they wanted it was going
going to be $115 million to expand Calico Rock for 525 beds. That was $219,000 per bed. Now you went up from $470 million. If it is 3,000 beds, which is no way, for $825,000, that's $275,000 per bed. So why did you or who shut down the Calico Rock expansion for a lot less money than what is being proposed with this other prison thank you for
Speaker 66
16:04
the question senator the calico
rock expansion was done under a previous administration the current administration pivoted and moved to effectively create the necessary capacity versus a expansion of calico rock which would not have solved the current problem that we're having with capacity issues at the Department of Corrections and that pivot was from that expansion to the construction of a 3,000 bed facility which will ultimately alleviate the county jail backup. Yeah well there's no way
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
16:37
that they're getting 3,800 people to work but so basically did you and the governor's office is the one that shut down the expansion at Calico Rock is that correct? We're expanding the Department
Speaker 66
16:47
of Corrections capacity through the construction of a 3,000 bed facility so the expansion of corrections is occurring it just happens to not be occurring at calico rock all right sir king that's two questions we're going
to go to somebody else has questions first anybody else have questions you get back in the queue if you want
to ask another question senator hester well let's
go to representative wootman's first representative wootman you're
Speaker 70
17:18
recognized thank you mr chairman Now, I shared, let me make a statement
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
17:26
first. I shared with the chairman this morning, Representative Gene, that I regret there had to be a no vote. And I want Senator Dismaine to know that too. It disturbs me greatly. But my question is, for you, is how come the Secretary of the Prison System on Thursday, two weeks ago or three weeks ago, could not answer any of my questions relative to the cost?
Then on Monday, we get a number of $825 million, and we find out that we're spending $16 million to have a construction person from California come and be involved in a 3,000-bed prison here. So what happened over the four or five days there that they could answer one question? The total cost was put at $825, which I feel still could be $200 to $400 million short of what we need.
And I am not opposed to a prison system construction of a 3,000-bed facility. But I am concerned, as Senator Hickey pointed out, the fiscal responsibility that I feel has not been met. So why could they answer the questions on Monday, but they couldn't on Thursday? Representative Wooten, I wish I had a good
Speaker 72
19:10
answer for you with regards to what your questions
Speaker 66
19:14
may have been to Secretary Wallace and her ability to answer those questions.
I don't. I can tell you that the owner's representative has expressed, based on their analysis of the current situation, construction climate, and all things considered, that their estimated price tag for this 3,000-bed facility will be $825 million. Is
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
19:38
it 2,000 or 3,000? 3,000 beds, sir. So is that my
limit? That's your two questions. We'll get back into queue.
All right. Thank you. Senator Hester, you're
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
19:52
recognized. So Mr. Perfury, I understand that in your vast career you have overseen in a leadership position at least three different prison builds. Can you tell me did any of those three come
Speaker 62
20:07
in at budget? Yes, sir. Over the course of my career, almost four decades
Speaker 66
20:12
in corrections, took the Department of Corrections that I served for from 16,000 beds to 44,000 beds over that period.
We built state facilities. The largest facility constructed was 6,000 beds, another 5,000-bed facility, 3,500-bed facility, and then additional add-ons to prisons that we had as well as public-private partnerships that brought us to that capacity at the point that I left of 44,000. Of those prisons that we constructed, none went over budget, ultimately for two reasons, because you couldn't go over budget. You built to the budget, and that's what you did.
If you ran into issues associated with your budget, then you had to engage in processes associated with construction to potentially alleviate capacity to stay on budget or with that particular elected body was committed to corrections and bed capacity. They knew that passing laws in the state that resulted in incarceration also required an investment in correction. So if there were issues that were unforeseen, whether it was economic, through labor costs, construction, material, inflation,
then we would approach the legislature and they would decide whether they added more money to that particular project to reach the capacity or not. so three times in your career you met
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
21:44
budget on prison builds you met budget because the legislature gave you so much money and that's what you had to work with and you honored it three times because the legislature decided how much money not you that's correct sir thank you senator gilmore you're recognized
for a question and a follow-up thank you mr. chair secretary
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
22:10
over over this way sir thank you for being here thanks for answering our questions so i just want to sort of follow up because we we
hear a lot of talk down here about how much this is going to cost we've had crazy figures thrown out at you know billion and a half dollars we've we've had people talk about how there was you know the original cost estimate was you know 470 or some odd dollars so there's a lot of numbers been thrown out but we have a number now from the owner's rep that's 825 is that correct that's correct senator okay and so with that as my follow-up there there are ways to make sure that we maintain that estimate and we're coming in
within the constraint set meaning there's a lot of things that we can do a lot of levers we can pull to control those costs and in controlling those costs there's a lot of things we look at from bed mix to programming areas to understanding making sure that we're addressing everything that we should with pro-social behaviors and having spaces where we can rehabilitate all of those type of things are factored into this is that correct yes sir that's
Speaker 66
23:11
correct and would you elaborate a little bit on that so in prison design um to and to meet your budget you have to evaluate
what you're constructing you can construct a house of straw house of sticks or house of stones you want a house of stone when you're building a prison it is a generational facility that's going to serve public service for 50 to 100 years so it's it's a a large investment but it has a long lifespan and in building that prison you determine do you want celled environments do you want dorm environments dorm environments are cheaper than celled environments do you want single person
cells do you want double person cells you your square footage is relevant associated with that If you do the two-man cell and add four square feet to that cell, meeting effective accreditation standards, then you can reduce your cost while still providing effective incarceration through a two-man cell versus a single-person cell, which then would require more cells to equal that 3,000 bed capacity and more square footage, which then drives your cost.
Senator Stubberfield, you're recognized for a question and
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
24:30
a follow-up. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Perfury, you said you built three prisons under budget or within the budget that
Speaker 66
24:41
was given to you? That's correct, sir. What year was that? So the last prison that we built was in 2008. 2008.
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
24:51
So that is, let's see, this is 2025. That's a long time ago, isn't it?
Speaker 66
24:58
That's the last state prison facility we built. We effectuated public-private partnerships as well as expansions of our prison
Speaker 88
25:04
system at existing facilities past that particular date. I'm going to ask every colleague in
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
25:09
here. If you bought a piece of land and you were going to build you a house, would you give the contractor a blank check and say, go build this house? There's not one project that I've been down here and seen that didn't go over budget. I promise you this one will go over budget.
What are you going to do, Mr. Pefere?
Senator Joshua Bryant
Unverified
25:39
All right. All right. Senator Bryant, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Pefere, I looked at Veneer, who is our consultant that you've engaged on. They've done over $30 billion of projects just like these government institutional prisons with an 85 percent repeat business rate do you feel comfortable with what your experience are with them today that they can meet that objective and maybe we would want to do business with them
in the future but for now they can hit the objective of what they've sent
Speaker 49
26:08
us as to the cost yes sir i do believe that they
Speaker 66
26:11
are a professional company that they are well versed in this space and I would rely on them and their estimates
associated with this project. Thank you. Senator Blake Johnson,
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
26:28
you're recognized for a question and a follow-up. Over here. So the timeline in construction,
what was that timeline in the complete construction whenever you had built those prisons? So
Speaker 66
26:45
the 5,000-bed facility that we constructed was about a six-year timeline from start to finish, and we activated prisons as we went. So if you will, 5,000 beds was five 1,000-bed facilities on a single campus,
and through the economy of scale associated with having all the work there and all the tradesmen there, we brought one facility up at a time. And as, say, the concrete work finished, they would move to the next facility, start that while other tradesmen went into the facility that the concrete work had been finished in, and they would start doing their relative work associated with that. So despite having 5,000 beds over
Chair
Unverified
27:32
six years, we activated our first facility within about 18 months.
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
27:38
So with the estimated 3,000 bed and $825 million estimate, do you think the construction will be anywhere close to completion whenever this body comes back in 2027? Yes, it
Speaker 66
27:55
is the intent to activate a facility in the end of 26 or the beginning of 2027. That will not finish the entire project, but certainly will activate a facility as the targeted goal
Chair
Unverified
28:14
with a final completion date of the entire project in
late 2029. Representative Springer, you're recognized for a question and
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
28:26
a follow-up. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess my question is being directed
to you. I've received numerous phone calls and emails regarding this issue, and I'm advised in those emails that the residents of Franklin County are being denied the opportunity to participate in this
process, particularly in this meeting today. Would you please explain to them why, can you give a response as to why a public comment is not being made here in this particular setting we
Speaker 104
28:57
we have historically and I'm not talking about when we
go through joint budget in the fall on the hearings we get input there but historically we have never allowed public comment and joint budget while we're in session that has not happened okay so that's what that's what we're telling the public
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
29:18
now so they can understand that that's not historically been the case okay thank you thank you
ma'am all right let's see where we're at senator hill you're recognized for a question and a follow-up you
Speaker 107
29:33
ought to be on now mr. chair uh mr. perfury you made a comment just
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
29:39
a while ago you know depending on what what you're building whether it be a straw stick etc on this well you know as well as I do that a prison is a house of steel and with the tariffs that have been put on
steel right now is that 825,000 25 million that y'all are talking about does that include the tariffs which more than likely will stay if not the entire 25 percent to keep U.S. steel competitive with the with the Chinese steel are y'all figuring that into this budget or are
Speaker 49
30:14
we actually 25 percent short the 825 million dollar budget does have contingencies in
Speaker 66
30:19
there associated with construction costs as well as owner hold back contingencies which i believe are north of 100 million dollars
each so though it may not include tariffs if they are enacted or what the impact of that is and the price of steel, contingencies associated with construction costs are included in the budget. So you have $100
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
30:43
million that's there for overruns, basically, is what you're saying. So of that, we're looking at roughly $250 million on 25%. That seems to me like that's a little short for any other type of overruns if that hits in,
Speaker 66
31:00
if the tariffs stay at a 10% or 15%. I understand your point. The contingencies that are built into the budget are about 5% to 8%, depending on that. And if the inflation goes up or tariffs or other acts that we can't control, then we will tap into those contingencies to endeavor to mitigate those costs. Senator Rice, you're
recognized for a question and a follow-up.
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
31:34
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Befury, this project is going to require, to the best that people can look at it, miles of water lines, wastewater plant, ponds for the wastewater plant, rebuild of highways that don't have base that I'm told that they're going to need. uh redoing the highways if the highway if rdott's expected to pay for that
that's going to take away from some other projects they've got on their five-year plan to do and all these things go into the cost of the prison that's what the taxpayers are concerned about is the bottom line of what it's going to cost not what the building's going the cost not what the everything with inside the fence is the prison is the whole project and that's not what I'm hearing that we're talking about what
what you have stated is that and I'm not not question your experience but what we're looking at and saying is building 101 what what does building 101 say in In this project, it says you buy a piece of land before you do due diligence. And that may not have been your decision, but they bought a piece of land for $3 million before due diligence was done because it was available to buy.
Can you tell us what the total cost is going to be in a range, not just what the person and company said is $825 million, all this other stuff that the taxpayers are going to have to pay for to make this project work. What kind of range do you
Speaker 66
33:38
see on that? Senator, I can tell you that the estimate for this project, which includes utilities, is $825 million.
I don't have a figure for you as to what those utilities are going to cost because that will come ultimately with the engineering side of this, which we are currently underway on. And there are a range of options associated with utilities. There's the potential for drilling wells for water. There's also the potential for running transmission lines from available water sources to provide the capacity needed for that water. Those price variants are different. And so depending on what the engineering side of the house says is most prudent, while on the fiscal side is most prudent fiscally, then that ultimately will determine the cost of water.
Same with wastewater. Developing a wastewater treatment plant on site, self-contained at that facility with either discharge of gray water under EPA standards to local waterway or through soak away boreholes, the engineering side of the house will determine that. And I don't have the specific figures associated with what each of those specific utilities
Speaker 84
34:53
will cost, but it's incorporated into the $825 million budget.
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
35:01
You're saying that the highways and all the water lines and all is included
Speaker 66
35:09
in that $825 million? Utilities associated with the infrastructure to support that facility, wastewater, water, power, yes. uh roadways my understanding of roadways are the roadways they're no different than the roadways anywhere in the state they're built to a specific standard and there's no issue associated with
whatever load that is going to be necessary to construct this facility with this those roadways those roadway roadways are no different than any roadway to any facility that we currently have in the
state of arkansas all right senator hammer you're going to be the last question and we'll go to debate after we get uh let's senator
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
35:53
uh dismayne close you got the last question thank you mr chairman in the discussion that senator bryant had about the previous contractor and uh 85 percent success rate do you know if that contractor came in under budget
on those projects or do you have any knowledge of
Speaker 84
36:11
that senator hammer I believe you're referring to then air and I don't know about their budgetary process on previous projects
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
36:20
okay and then question to the chair just for clarification of something please approval of the appropriation there would still have to be a competitive bid process by any contractors that want on this and so as far as the cost above the 750 while they may know what we are
appropriating it's still going to be a competitive bid process that's going to have to come back before us for approval am I correct on that that'd be correct thank that correct senator dismayne okay thank you all right
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
36:53
members we're gonna let senator senator dismayne close for his bill no I mean I think we
all understand again I want to restate this is the appropriation only that does not have funding funding directly tied to that that would be an additional discussion even including the 330 million that's already been set aside in
the restricted reserve that would require a three-fifths vote I think there's you know I want to allow time for discussion so with that I move for do pass on Senate bill 354 I
have a motion to have a second I have a second any discussion and that's what we'll start with it's
see who's the top of the list senator Wooten
excuse me representative Wooten you're recognized
Speaker 70
37:43
yeah let's try it again there you go thank you thank you for the
promotion I'm sure the senators would
there I think I think they would be in favor of having you in their
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
38:00
number. Well, let me say again, I'm not opposed to a new prison. But the fiscal matters pertaining to the current recommendation and the current motion are lacking.
We do not know what this is going to cost, and I have not heard anyone, and I had it down for my next question, I have not heard anyone address the operating cost of the penitentiary. You can call it a prison, you can call it the Department of Corrections, whatever you want to call it, but no one's talked about that. Let me tell you what the salaries will be for 800 employees, which I don't think you can secure in that part of the state without reaching out over way over in Oklahoma, will be $40 million.
And that's an average of $50,000, which some will exceed that. But if $50,000 is your average salary, so anything above that is going to be more but $40 million, $3 million payroll a month. We've already bought the land. No consideration has been given that I've been made aware of, and no discussion have I heard has been made aware.
We've got plenty of land at Varner, Tucker, Cummins, enough land to build a new prison on that facility and use some of the infrastructure that's already there. Up here, we're going to have to build roads. We're going to have to have a complete new water treatment facility, sewer system, and everything that goes along with that rural development area of the state.
And forget the fact that the people up there do not want it. Varner, Gould, those areas of this state, Tucker, they're used to having a penitentiary
there. Representative Wooten, we've got 15 minutes on this. We've got six or eight that want to say
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
40:40
something. Let me just finish up by saying, again, I'm not opposed, Mr. Chairman, to the construction of a new facility.
We need it. We've got to have it. But we do not know the total cost as of yet. I know they've said $825 million, but that's not going to address it.
Speaker 70
41:02
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, sir. Senator Tuberfield,
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
41:07
you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want you to know that we have no specific information on any of the engineering studies that's been done.
i have spoken with r dot they've informed me that all those roads will have to have shoulders put on them they will have to be redone because it won't take a chip and a seal to fix them and i would say to mr perfury that 18 years ago concrete is a little bit higher today than it was 18 years ago along with steel and every other thing you buy, including a commode handle, is five to ten times higher.
And not only that, one of the criteria for this prison to meet was to be close to a major, major interstate. We are 22 miles from the closest interstate, and there is no water in Ozark that's available because of a cargo plant that is there, and they have to shut off customers whenever they're running at 100%. So where is the water going to come from? Are they going to have to go all the way to Fort Smith to get it?
None of these figures have been told to us. This is all speculative. The numbers they're throwing out have no basis to back them up. And I will be voting no on this. I appreciate it. Thank you,
Speaker 123
42:43
Senator. Senator Hester, you're recognized. Thank you. I think my
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
42:49
point earlier with the question on Mr. Perfury was three times in his career he's been given a number by the legislature,
and he's honored that number. The cost of this prison will be what this body says it will be. It will not be what the executive branch says it will be. We're the appropriators. If we say the cost of this prison is $825 million, the cost of the prison will be $825 million. And that's what we're saying right now. The cost of this prison will be $825 million. I struggle to think, what if we don't build this prison? What is the cost to society? What are the costs to the people? How do we answer to the people at home when there's no misdemeanor justice? What is the cost to not do this?
This body is saying it's $825 million. Mr. Perfury has said he's done exactly what the legislature has told him to do three other times in his life. It didn't matter if it was one year ago or 20 years ago. It's not about the dollar amount. It's about honoring the respects of the legislature, honoring the budget that they gave him. He's done it three
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
43:50
times. He'll do it again. Thank you, Senator. Senator Hickey, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Obviously, I'm for the prison, or I
would not have ran an amendment to set up two accounts, one of them being a contingency.
I'm willing to even overlook some of my fiscal responsibility because I feel that we need the prison that bad. However, I sit here and I listen to this stuff about this vast experience that we have in the construction business, and we didn't even do the basic of things. I've done some of this in my life. The first thing anybody does, you go out and buy a piece of land, you do a site survey. You do a contingency on the contract to make 100% sure that you've got the utilities to
service the thing, to make sure that there's no environmental concerns, that there's not any Indian artifacts or something on the land. There are tons of things you do. As I heard Senator Rice say, that's building 101. So to sit here and tell me that you've got this great experience in doing this and you basically have flubbed the purchase is just insulting to me. And then in testimony, I believe Senator Hammer asked this, which was a great question.
I hear that we haven't even looked at this consultant we've done to see how they have come in on their past estimates for prisons. That is unbelievable for me. Do I think we need a prison? Of course I do. Again, I did an amendment to try to make it so that we'd have the money, because this might be a four- or five-year project, but we don't want to listen to that or to try to do that to have the money in place. We just want to talk about how we're going to do this, and we can't even get the first
step right. Thank you, Senator. Senator Johnson,
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
45:45
you're recognized. Thank you, sir. I don't propose a prison, and I support this effort. Because the estimate is $825 million. This prison, part of it may be built by the time we come back as a body in 2027. But if the engineering and architecture and construction is over cost, we can address that at that time.
But this is the time we're in. And $825 is what is needed at this time. And that's what I want to address at this time, and that's our responsibility as a legislature. Appreciate
it. Thank you, Senator. Senator Boyd, you're recognized.
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
46:34
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So what I do know is this legislature determines what's a crime. This legislature sets the penalties for crime. We in Sebastian County have instituted drug courts, mental health courts, crisis stabilization unit,
crisis intervention training done everything that i know of to try to figure out who belongs in jail who belongs in prison and who doesn't but today 46 percent of the inmates in sebastian county jail are state inmates so at some point and i know sebastian county is not alone alone we have to build a prison so i'm gonna vote for this today thank you all right senator
peyton we haven't heard from you yet. You're recognized.
Senator John Payton
Unverified
47:19
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My dad always called it running off
half-cocked, and it seems to me that that was the first step. We had a lot of money burning a hole in our pocket. Everybody agreed we wanted to build a prison, and I'm not sure that we made a wise business decision in where we're going to put it or how we started, but it did destroy a lot of us confidence in the people making the decision and when we're talking about what could be a billion dollar project we need some confidence in how the decisions are going to be made
we need a prison or maybe we need three prisons but i remember two years ago we had prison space that we could not take advantage of because we did not have staff staffing those prisons in my business sense and all the experience that i've had hiring and and organizing businesses around the state i look at the location that's been chosen and maybe we could build a thousand bed prison there and staff it but i really think
that we're going to build a 3 000 bed prison and may only be able to use a thousand beds of it because we can't find the staff. And so that's what concerns me most, and that's why I think we need to slow down instead of running off half-cocked and pursuing what could be a major problem in the end.
Thank you. Thank you, Senator. Senator Rice,
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
48:58
you're recognized. Thank you. I will thank Senator Payton for saying some things that's on my mind,
But my fear is the way this project has been done to date, that we will spend mega millions and we'll find out we need more money to do it right. And again, the things that's not just within the fence is part of this project that the taxpayer is going to pay for. We're not saying no to a prison. I voted for the SAFET Act. I voted for a prison. But I'm trying to get some confidence, and Senator Payton said it for me.
I've lost confidence in the people that are working on this, and now we're trying to fit the widget in whatever holes left, and that doesn't inspire confidence in me. I want the taxpayer to have some confidence too, and they've not been given the up-front information that they need just by saying we don't have it yet, but yet we're going to fund it, and we're going to get so far down the road with so much money that the legislature can't say no we just got to pump more into it that's my fear thank you
thank you senator senator king you're recognized
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
50:12
thank you mr chairman so i gave the figures about the malvern expansion at 219 000 per bed that they could have expanded that the governor and mr perfuri appears to have shut down that's 219 000 per bed what they're throwing out now they originally said 470 million no details now they're up to 825 million and this is just a cover letter It doesn't provide any details. There is nobody in the real world except giving you a price thing to build a building or a house or warehouse without any details.
If you look at we'll build a prison, well, if you look at it, $825 million. If you get 3,000 beds, which is totally unrealistic, that's $275,000 per bed. If you go down to 2,000 beds and you get in the middle of this and you only do 2,000 beds, that's $412,000 per bed. if you go down to 1,500, which is more realistic in line with all these other things, the ACA standards, you're talking about building a 550,000 per bed. Once again, they're not providing any details, which should just set off bells and whistles and alarms. And I can tell you, there
are a lot of alternatives that can be done in a more physically responsible way to take care of the problem than to just go down this financial boondoggle. Once you step into this, and these prison building companies once again they provide just a cover letter no details of the roads no details of water no details of site preparation nothing nothing at all i'm just telling you i trust draclia running a blood drive before i would trust prison building companies on keeping their estimates thank you senator
senator stubbleville you've got on the clock on the wall you've got
one minute you had the last word all right
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
51:54
let me just say this one of the big problems and i've chair of penal and correctional institutions for 12 years. One of the biggest problems we have is staff. We cannot find people to work in these prisons. We bring in people from Mississippi. We're busting in people from all over. 60% of our guards are females. We can't even get, we can't get men, male guards to work in these facilities. In my area, the big part of those
people are elderly, retired. They're not going to work in prisons. And another thing, you're going to wipe out every sheriff's deputies for a 20 county area because they're not going to work for $35,000 when they can make $50,000 and move up there. So we're going to be left without deputies to protect our counties while the prison has all the staff. This is a, and like Representative Wooten said,
we will be going to Oklahoma and we will be busting staff from Salisaw and maybe even over to Shakota all the way there to Charleston, Arkansas. There's a better option because there's a statute on the books right now that we passed when Governor Hutchison was here that allowed counties to partner together on half the sales tax and build their jails there. And there's six counties,
six or seven counties, that are producing the biggest part of the prisoners. Franklin County doesn't have, but you have other counties like Pulaski, Sebastian, Crawford, Jefferson. All these counties are producing all these prisoners, and
yet every constituent in your district is going to be paying these ongoing costs, like Representative
Wooten said. Thank you. Senator Disman wants to
close, and then we're going to, does that member know, Senator Stubberfield
has come and asked for the House to be divided, so after he gets through, I need to see two hands, along with Senator Stubberfield, and we'll divide the chambers, and we're going start on the senate end. Senator Disman
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
54:19
you're recognized. One thing I just I just want to say at the end because we keep talking about funding this is not the funding this is the appropriation this is something that's required for a capital project to start a capital project. There is an estimation or I guess a you know the consultant came back with an 825 million dollar number this is the appropriation. There are stopgaps and stopgaps and stopgaps in front of us as we discuss
funding along the way and how we're going to do that this is not that this is the appropriation for a capital project to build a prison period this is not the end of our responsibility this is not the end of our discussion this allows us to have the bigger construction or conversation with that appreciate a good vote all right i got center all
right i have at least two hands or three or
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
55:08
four we'll uh go with uh the roll call on the senate side yes sir senator english
Speaker 24
55:16
yes senator mark johnson yes senator hammer yes senator tucker no senator payton no senator ervin Yes. Senator Caldwell? No. Senator Flippo? Yes. Senator Blake Johnson? Yes. Senator Hill? No. Senator Sullivan? Yes. Senator Hester? Yes. Senator Letting? No. Senator King? No. Senator Penzo?
I'm not seeing Senator Penzo. Senator Boyd. Yes. Senator Bryant. Yes. Senator Dees. Senator Flowers. Yes. Senator Clark. Senator Kroll. No. Senator Stubbefield. No. Senator Hickey. No. Senator Davis. Yes. Senator McGee.
Yes, Senator Gilmore, yes, Senator Rice, no, Senator Petty, yes,
Speaker 131
56:28
Senator Wallace, yes. Yes, sir, call the House, yes, sir. We've got
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
56:48
the House. Representative Matthew Shepard.
Speaker 24
56:54
Yes. Representative Holcomb. Yes. Representative Richmond. Yes. Representative Pilkington. Yes. Representative Warren. Yes. Representative Kavanaugh. Yes. Representative Lynch. Yes. Representative Evans. Yes. Representative Milligan. Yes. Representative Walker. First alternate representative McGruder. no. Representative Moore, yes. Representative McGee, no. Representative Wooten, no. Representative
Collins, no. Representative McCulloch, no. Representative Springer, no. Representative Hudson, no. Representative Garner, no. Representative Johnson, no. Representative Clowney, Representative Gramlich Representative Scott Richardson Representative Burks Representative Eves Representative Wardlaw
Representative Lundstrom Representative Gassaway 16 in
Speaker 137
58:22
the affirmative the bill is adopted is
due past members right quick
we'll be back in here on Wednesday April 2nd and before that when you come back
on Tuesday we got personnel at 8:00 and special language in and appreciate your work. We are adjourned.
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Reports and Communications
C. Consideration of Member Bills and Amendments
D. Governor’s Letters
E. Bills Re-Referred to Joint Budget Committee
F. Other Business
G. Adjournment
Documents
Speakers
Representative Lane Jean Chair
Unverified
Speaker 13
Senator Breanne Davis
Unverified
Representative Lee Johnson
Unverified
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
Speaker 23
Speaker 24
Representative Frances Cavenaugh
Unverified
Senator Jonathan Dismang
Unverified
Speaker 26
Speaker 47
Speaker 49
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
Speaker 62
Speaker 66
Speaker 70
Representative Jim Wooten
Unverified
Speaker 72
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
Senator Ben Gilmore
Unverified
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
Speaker 88
Chair
Unverified
Senator Joshua Bryant
Unverified
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
Speaker 104
Speaker 107
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
Speaker 84
Speaker 73
Speaker 123
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
Senator John Payton
Unverified
Speaker 131
Speaker 134
Speaker 137