Education- Senate and House

Call this meeting to order. sees a quorum. And I'll start with the manager do you have any comments. Good morning. All right so I think we're going to continue with some discussion there was uh I know one member that was not here yesterday that it sentence recommendations Lee Johnson Ferguson Johnson thank you clincher button we will start with you let you You have your ideas of what you had. Thank you Mr chair and apologies to everyone here not be able to make the meeting yesterday I was I'd listen to a live in or separate sheet everybody's thoughts and comments especially appreciate to the chairs for giving us the opportunity to provide some input on this process in and given us the form here in this meeting to speak to our thoughts and ideas on the process I want to thank be alarmed everyone went into the to the effort of preparing this adequacy report this is a very good document my opinion this well written with lots of good thoughts and ideas in it as well so before I start let me preface by saying I recognize that I am no subject matter expert when it comes educational funding all I've done essentially spend some time reading the adequacy report and trying to listen to the recommendations that are in there provided by the experts we brought in to try to assess adequacy in in the State of Arkansas how we fund education so I I think. I think we need some fundamental changes to the matrix you know the matrix to me when I started here was this mysterious entity or dollars when in in dollars came out and it was it was something that I felt like was very complicated now there are special time with that I understand it better it is my understanding of the matrix is that it say funding formula it was presented almost twenty years ago based on the opinions of some experts we had then and since since we've started this process of adequacy there's not been any fundamental changes to the matrix other there the salary levels we change over time that's my understanding and I think we need to look at in a very serious concerted way how the matrix is structured and we need to make strong consideration to changing some of the entities that are the matrix we need to make strong consideration to pulling out some items in the matrix in inputting them other places specifically special education our I was there listening yesterday I agree with representative Godfrey I think we need to take special education out of the matrix credit categorical funds for that based on a weighted system modeled after what other states have done so that we're funding special education of full and fair way I think we need to take a instructional facilitators and we need to create a new line that pulls out the assistant principal at the point five assistant principal this instructional facilitators the is the statutory requirements understand it for every school with other students to hire an assistant principal we spend about sixty six percent of our dollars for instructional facilitators on assistant principals yet we know from evidence based research instructions still haters are critical. To moving the needle forward that with education and so what we're in effect doing this we're underfunding instructional facilitators by not creating a special line within the registry system principles I think there also needs to be point five pulled out for technology instructors in that out of that destruction facilitators as well I think we need to fully fund librarian from point five to one. I think we need to look at staffing ratios for teachers and bring them up approximately thirty three percent over the next three years based on recommendations from the associates were brought here I hate acronyms of the State a PA because I don't know how to pronounce the name of the application Tallaght but it but APA was the people we hired to make recommendations in this report is fraught with recommendations from those experts and I think we need to give strong consideration those. I would pull. I would fully fund technology to four hundred because I think that creates one one a ratio for technology equipment to students which I thinks important in the current technological age I think we need to take transportation out of the matrix in in re thank how we fund transportation combined with the enhanced transportation fund And I know that's a lie I think when you look at operations and maintenance that's something that is We have to move a lot of pieces around looks like for administrators to fully fund that there's some form was we could look at that would help us understand better how we need to fully fund operations and maintenance And I don't think we need to do that the next three days I don't think we need to do that between now and the fifteenth I wanna be clear I think this is something that I want to consider as we move into the next legislative session as a preference I'm no expert I have ideas because I've read this adequacy report I feel like some of these ideas are good ideas some of the some of them may not I but I do I am committed to the process of trying to look at how we are fundamentally funding education to the matrix and try to think outside the box and try to make some changes as we get feedback from all the stakeholders and so I appreciate of the time I've been given to to make those comments I will try to wrap it up and happy to take any questions and Leave it at that. You want to questions Richard Godfrey of questions with. Yes thank you Mr thank you senator president Johnson glad that we're on the same page about the categorical an option for special education funding do you have you don't get it done in any further than I have about what that waited System looks like how you know what is the per pupil for you know certain types of disabilities or what that might look like and what we can anticipate as a kind of a bottom line and toppling per people amount sure I thought I reports said that average or total expenditures per people we're at ten eighty two per people so just check with your numbers that you've seen or had asked for the number that I've seen is actually around seven thousand seven hundred twenty twenty one it's a per pupil expenditure which is it there's a delta there between the per pupil expenditure for special at in the recommended AT and per pupil expenditure this far as otherwise I mean there's there's two different general ways one is a fixed model where there's a fixed approach yeah there's a weighted approach I think the weighted approach is better there's eight states that do waited protostars eight different ways that states do weighted approach is the most common ways based on disability type. So they just look at a school with a how many of this type of disability you have the more severe disability types care there the more you the higher population the student you have the more money you would receive based on a weighted scale at I think it's better to try to try to look at disabilities Verity as opposed to top of that I'm just if you're two point I'm just starting to explore that Simon those are just two ways in which is done some people waited based on expenditures so how much is the school spending and they break that into categories so there are about a different ways that other states do this in the I think it's important we consider all of them in a real mean what a great thank you thanks for your. Other any other questions. Seeing none thank you representative Johnson for your suggestions and I will Sound off on that to this is something we've looked at a number of times you brought up transportation transportation is something we talked about in many different time that's when we come up with supplemental transportation funding because. The only other way to fund transportation is in the route miles or students in the seat those those are two things it's really hard to it to students in the seat correctly all the time it gets pretty close but that's some of the things we've looked at the past it's it's very difficult we can do it and I think that's it takes somebody that really wants to challenge that and work on that legislation you're here and we talk about it a lot and nobody ever does it and uh represent Lowery is not here today I will bring his name up and that's one of the things that he's been bringing up for years and I told him I said Russian Lowery you need take that I want to do it and come up with a solution and he's never found a better solution of what we're actually trying to do local internet supplemental to actually hit the rule schools so manager. Just set a follow up on that I think representative Rick Beck also have presented some great suggestions a couple years ago to the Education Committee meeting about the funding in the matrix and how its disproportionate to your smaller schools and again you know. I'm not sure how those good ideas get worked into this process because I agree with with representative Johnson and with representative Godfrey on and and I know it was a recommendation that I heard from the written testimony let me just say the written testimony that was received really appreciate the rule as caters Association for emphasizing and stressing the the need for broadband and and the need for our students to be able to have that technology availability their homes couldn't agree more with with what you wrote in there which is why also support recommending increasing the the line item for technology. But I think it's important for these ideas especially to the special ed to create a new categorical fun for us to have that ability to to work through that with with a recommendation from the committee so. You know I I would like for us to to have that opportunity and for members to have those opportunities to make those changes through this process And and and perhaps as a recommendations that are part of the report but not worked into the work sheet you know to the the numbers but yeah I'll leave that up to the Committee on how they want to deal with that because I think there's some really good ideas That are that have been presented. Those are great ideas and that's why we're doing this report all of these items that we are speaking about will go into the report that will be filed by the fifteenth of October somewhere around that date of act that we're going to go out for public comment for those days before goes the governor's desk on the first those are not true and we have actually done that last session we made a change to add a computer science position in our FTA and if you look on the your K. twelve ratios that went from thirteen point eight two fourteen point eight so we had one position to that for the computer science teacher so that brought your ratio up of thirty five six nine two thirty six six nine for fourteen twenty four twenty five so that's the process you go through you can earn a session you run those legislation to add those safety position FTP positions and then we added to the matrix there in the matrix you you have. Members and I had some questions on what I discussed yesterday with the differentiating pay and differentiating pay processes and that's Tennessee code forty nine dash three dash three of six for folks that want to look that up but it's it's again based on high needs subject areas and schools instructional roles and or responsibilities and performance are three of those factors and that so that was that was my at recommendation would be to follow the Tennessee statute and and and what they have done with given that flexibility and that ability to the school districts so just for your reference that is the code for that thank you. Senator Elliot. Thank you Mr I I I did just want to lift up that representative Murdock worked of several years and trying to address the transportation issue and made some headway but it's it's still it's still a problem because everything is and I don't mean this negatively necessarily but everything is a hostage to a matrix where we work assiduously to meet adequacy because when the courts ruled the court's rules and we had to. Need to know this address adequacy and equity and we had to define what adequate is. And since that time almost twenty years ago we've been chasing adequacy. And that's where we set our sights on I think the fact that we have we're stuck in chasing adequacy it clouds our vision of imagine an excellence. Last because we we reached that. Saying that we defined back in two thousand three or five or whatever we came to the final decision and we're still reaching for that same goal. So. I'm just suggesting that if we were to think about. Absolute excellence that might give us a vision for thinking about all the rest of the things that we keep on working for when we come into these studies and. I for almost twenty years not quite and I've lost on this and I accept that I've lost on it. I've been trying to get us to think about. Defining. What we want and education what's on north star. It surely it can't be adequacy surely just can't be things to be adequate so I think part of our problem is we haven't defined what we want to be. And that's why we do it in pieces it is hard to do things in pieces and make it work as a whole because we haven't defined the holes so I I hope at some point in our state we look with these decide what we want to be and work for that because if we don't we will keep trying to. Make adequate transportation make adequate whatever you name that by taking that out of a model that we have out grown in the first place. And the thing that bothers me the most is operating under this. Luzhin I think. And we take this out of put over here and find it take it out put it over here and find it we're still going to have the matrix. And then you're gonna have a matrix as worse than what it is right now because you're going to have far less money. To do the same things. To make sure you have adequate resources in the school. If you don't put more money in the matrix. And that's that's what I worry about instead of our. Defining the whole and then funded from that as opposed to piece by piece because just like a child in the whole place of school as a whole place. There were not going to reduce the number of rooms we have we have to have for the kids and in the school just because we took money out for this money out for that but we're still going to need to fund it so I just say that for said that we haven't done it I hope we do some data site within or stories and be justice for print about that as we are I don't know let's say athletics in our state that would be really great. Thank you senator Elliots I represent because our stepped away but I think one of the written testimonies that was provided to us I have by I think it was a Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation basically said to tear up the matrix and start over and the way forward is to do is I'm reading from their recommendation the way forward is to dismantle the current education system and replace it with a system that effectively ensures all students receive a high quality education and I'm reading from their written testimony and that we've built a system that creates an addict and equitable outcomes and and I couldn't agree more. All right is there anyone else that has any discussion on adequacy issues apart to control recommendations to the two thousand twenty two adequacy report. Anyone else have a recommendation or a potential issue. Okay. Thank you Mr. All of the comments that have been written of to the Committee going to be included in the report or is the final report gonna. Exclude those will all of those things be like insularity to the report. I have to ask Taylor that I think I think everything is discussed it goes into report goes into the report yes it would be nice. And I will read it Mr just a I need a quick question from the department of the if I may if you will okay I will go ahead with school safety is what kind of things who do we have here compartment or center court had great. I see great okay I can see my column I think they I don't purpose back there I John's back there okay Secretary key with the Secretary policing of. Probably depends on the question but Johnny key or education is not a loaded question it's it's one of safety as when dealing with adequacy several incidents have come to my attention where people have been attacked in the public schools at the beginning of this year and some of them suffer from the will be gotten impression that they cannot defend themselves or they will lose their jobs what are we doing to make sure that employees know they have the right to self defense. Senator a. I don't know that those situations have been brought to my attention so I don't know that I can give you an answer of. I would definitely want to get some more context before I could respond to that okay I have had to individuals in the public schools will have been attacked by students this school year. One of them said I'll lose my job if I defend myself. And surely there somewhere in state law we need to put it there were people as we're dealing with school safety have the right to self defense we had already in the law what do we need to put it in the law as we deal with adequacy will be happy to look into that and get your response back I thank you very much. All right I don't know of anybody else's a question what we back up we do. Representative back you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair and I really don't have a question but it's more of a statement I maybe the long person on the committee with this but but I want to. To bring up the point that the matrix I mean it's very proper so let's get rid the matrix and and make everything nice and great again but I will say that the matrix does provide I believe stability to our schools systems you're in you're out I do recognize that there needs to be some adjustments made to the the matrix as to how the the you know some of the categories within it maybe some adjustment factors based upon school sizes and things like that that would make it more equitable funding for smaller school districts versus some of our larger school this is the transportation is that nothing that was mentioned I think that's another area where we could we could certainly use the matrix to actually give the school districts stability as far as our funding year in and year out so I'll I'll get off my soapbox now but I do believe that the matrix a person with the matrix could be adjusted to do exactly what we want to do. And I would caution my colleagues if you get rid of the matrix it is sort of an anchor which we work around right now and that does as some stability to the funding for the different school districts and so on so forth so just keep that in mind when you're considering thanks thank you. I just I just like to make a comment to respond to that I think I think that's true I I guess the problem is I'm not really sure I can report can point to some reforms through it I mean it it serves as an anchor however it also bogs us down to where I don't see a lot of reforms that have been discussed through the different recommendations and the different proposals actually making it their way through the matrix to for wishin that to me becomes a problem we've dealt with with it different ways by creating different catechol local funds I would agree one hundred percent with representative Cozart about transportation represent Murdock and and others. That's a big big deal and for your small schools I'm not sure how they're going to be able to handle something. As it flows all the way through to and they're still kind of on the short end of the stick because we're not really adequately looking at the needs for those smaller rules schools and to me that's that's a problem and it's an issue that has to be fixed an address so I thank you I think there are real fruitful things we have to look at and do again and do and I just. I wanted to respond to that because I think there's a lot of issues there that need to be addressed moving forward however we do it. I represent Godfrey. Thank you Mr my question is this are we going to be talking about this proposed matrix that represented eleven talked about yesterday like you said does anybody else have any questions or recommendations I mean are we taking sometime today and to this is as I've already next are we just going through individual recognitions I'm just trying to see where we are in the at the gym that basically the term of the recommendation that you have for special ed teachers no I mean I I feel good about having presented mine I'm just wondering on this like proposed matrix that represented eleven kind of introduced yesterday are we there are we talking about that yet or okay I just I just we just talk about there's any additional recommendation under discussions we'll get to that okay I don't have any thank you. Registered you still. it again I think I shut you off will go. Thank you you're a. Thank you Mr and my question kind of goes along with represent gone fees I had just one quick question about something I didn't say and represented eleven a proposal but while everybody's kind of get on their soapbox I'll get online to. you know that I'm still teaching I'm one of the few who are still active and every day that I miss work it's and it's it's a lot for me to be here and so I I try to come when I know that you know my presence is needed and you know that we have something to discuss and vote on and make a decision one thing though that I I keep hearing over and over that even I am myself have personally experienced is anytime that a recommendation is made or and ideas brought forward it's usually kind of put into two boxes well that's not adequacy or you know you can't do that in here that would be legislation or that's not really us that something as far as a rule change goes or whatever I see that over and over and over for example and we've been talking about you know we spent thousands of dollars on a consultant to come into a you know pretty long study with us back in December of twenty twenty. The enhanced student funding for example they told us to get away from these cliffs that we have we're seventy percent you get so much ninety percent you get so much and so forth and that's still in our adequacy worksheets that and was never changed as far as to a multiplier is what they recommended and I went back and looked and sure enough it's here in our books as far as you know what they recommended what the multipliers would be that we increase the funding for it but we don't increase the calculation we don't change the calculation of the question one thing then that I wondered where it was in the house is recommendations was made on Feb finding more funding for a partnership programs we had it I think Senator English headed in hers but you know we've we've been talking about that as well with inflation costs going up in case you don't know we signed a partnership program at a hundred and sixty eight dollars a square foot and there's houses being built all over your districts for a whole lot more than a hundred sixty eight dollars a square foot can you imagine trying to build a school building in and costs now that maybe three hundred dollars a square foot even if we increased just the total that doesn't change the way that we're actually doing the work and so at some point we've got to get away from this idea that you know well that's a rule change or that's legislation change and and make sure that what we're going to do inadequacy yes like you said in our life because it has been said it's thorough it's well thought out it to bring something to the table then that we can take and either run legislation or provide you know some rules recommendations but you know that that was my problem always with you know trying to provide recommendations was it was always seem to be what's going to take a lot more than that it's going to take a lot more than that and so as we kind of make these decisions we talk about it you know some of these things we can put in our report we can say would like to see this change would like to see the way this equation is changed or we. Like to say that you know increased or whatever I just like I said I hope that we don't lose sight of we have some things that we can change transportation like you said is one of them that we have done and we still continue to do that facilities is just as important this enhanced student for funding for poverty is just as important and so like I said when we get to the proper time I'd like to ask about the house is proposed as far as facilities go as well but I appreciate your time. Thank you and I believe that's what this is about it's all about the recommendations that we come up with that we'll go into the report so that we can come back in the next session to bring those legislations for that we need to change with and such as what represent Johnson brought out and representative back and you're bringing out also facilities that's something we haven't got to because it doesn't fit into this Arshid matrix but we do have to make a recommendation for a facility funding does it always fits a need I think we've a we've got a lot of work to do all facilities in the next session we know we're short funded right now hopefully costs are coming back down were some of the buildings can be built at a reasonable cost instead of such an inflationary area that they man and now and being a builder I've seen that so much in the last two years and how much of the cost of buildings have inflated but now that is starting to relax down a little bit whatever be back where it was now at war so we've got to read we've got an address a a number to put into of the increase in facility funding for of either to for more funding for a school or for more school so that will come up in a a little later after the categorical still I'm not gonna go go after the foundation majors because it doesn't go in that matrix is just a separate recommendation all right Go ahead. Just two Senator Sturch this point though like the diff I agree that a lot of really liked the the recommendation on the the cliffs that was made and spitting out those close to make sure that that money really gets to the student that really is in need for those funds I mean why why couldn't that be part of the adequacy change. worksheet I mean or the special at categorical fund that we've that seems to be a full agreement I agree with that it was a great idea and seeing that represent Godfrey and submitted it so I did not submit it but. I'm I'm I really can't tell you that's a that's a pretty big undertaking to do in the final hours is to change that I still think we can do that and legislation and changes immediately will run the legislation it's just that's going to take legislation to change all of that if you're talking about the cliffs of the categorical for ESA and stuff like that so that was one year yeah that's that's one recommendations I something that got overlooked your recommendations like said the chair's can't take every everything the some of the things that some of the committee members needs to kind of look over bring up but I mean that's something we can do in the first part of the of the exception for you that will be here as to make those changes and it would we cover run that back and it would right back into the category cool change it categorical up to make it work with what we have will we have changed the funding for that or not I don't know but that's that's all would be in legislation that you have to do just as we did on the if the for the classroom teachers of forty twelve we put we had a position for a computer science last year that moved that up from thirteen point eight to fourteen point eight so that was change was made during last session and that's kind of the way I'm saying those awaiting the select need to be done. All right the representative back you up again. I accidentally double hit my **** when I shut off while ago. You're good good. represent Johnson. I just wanted to make a comment make sure I understand the process you for me this is about getting my ideas out there based on the things that you brought test nasty this is I wanna be clear this is not about me advocating for making changes abruptly in a way that is cavalier and doesn't have and it has given industry diligence again I'm no expert I know people branded this a number of times in different directions I want to give full respect to the work that's been put into this committee over the years with regard to transportation the matrix and other things there were a couple of other ideas believe it or not that I didn't get to you that I wanted to put out there is long as we're talking about ideas thanks to think about as we come into the legislative session I think we ought to consider adding for technical education and the matrix right now we're spending a hundred million dollars something ballpark like that on create technical education along with that I think it's important we look at the definition of adequacy you one of the recommendations of APA was that we change the definition adequacy to include more of its career technical education perspective I also think we ought to add a dyslexia instructor interventionist at something it's mandated that schools have but we don't have that in the matrix so again as long as we get ideas out there that's an idea that I think we ought to look at as well as we moved into the session and I think we should consider creating a categorical fund for mental health providers we're currently current finding that in through other support staff right now in the matrix we're looking at doing some school safety things underneath the matrix in the categorical I think it's important opportunity to fund up mental health provisions under the category as well which is important part of school safety so I just want to get those other ideas out there and they'll be quiet in that appreciate that the latitude to get those ideas are on the record thank you represent Johnson you Mr created and I've heard that from a few you know career it is we really do have a career in in some of our schools to our of locational. committee departments such as FFA and and shop and things like that that is kind of a career in issue occur it is funded to higher ed so we have to make some changes on that to be able to move those around to do it a little different but there's we're open you know we're always open for legislation to do those things so we can look at that for the the next following here to do that and and bring back and if we have to come back and revisit the matrix and change of some things we can always pull it up in the next session and make those of additions or can leads into what we need to do. Rison got for your back up. Thank you Mr chair just kind of listening to this conversation and reflecting on my experience of being a committee member throughout this process I think it could be helpful in the next biennium and I know that I will be here but just thinking about the work of this committee for the adequacy study it may be helpful to kind of restructure the way we do these monthly meetings and to add kind of a work session to create recommendations after each monthly meeting BLR does that it doesn't incredible job in presenting there were you know their portion of the report based on certain themes that they presented on funding they presented on spending they presented on categorical they presented on teacher retention and recruitment they presented on all of these different components of our education system and then now that we're not sober it's like okay let's go back and remember everything they taught us for the whole year and compile recommendations based on that your long study I wonder if it may be helpful moving forward if every month we had as part of the meeting. A time to kind of brain storm and workshop recommendations for that particular topic or that particular area so for example we heard back in April we heard the report from the L. R. on teacher salary teacher recruitment and retention strategies and struggles and so if after those two days we would you know bookmark and our to do the work of brainstorming recommendations then and do that subsequently every month for every topic so that it's not just one big kind of like yeah I think the October we've done this study but what was it that we learned back in you know October or September whatever we've kind of intermittently and and consistently done wire to kind of brainstorm and come up with recommendations so that were pulling from a year's worth of good ideas that we had all together and are not having to do this huge you know kind of recap of the report just a recommendation like I said I will be here but I think that could be helpful and could maybe keep us from missing some things that you know if if the recommendation is only toward the end of the the study or to the year that maybe we forgot we heard back in the beginning sept just a thought. Thank you I will chime in on that that some of the things we have tried to do in the past as you notice are committees when we get down to the very last thing of the committee the board shall they will say and I'm not saying everybody but some do not stay so it's hard to get into state hang around and do a work shop we've we've tried that actually probably my first. Or second time as chair I set up committees to work on certain things and and we we get down to adequacy that turned into a football basketball whatever they want to talk about and never really worked on the items that we had so it really here's the deal it takes commitment from these members to be here and do this and when you sign up for Education Committee you need to be committed to education saying if you sign up for public health you need to be committed to public health it's not just a committee you come into an you get per diem and sit there and walk out is something that is interactive you have to be a part of it as far as voting on the things that we here at that time. we tried that once to that in work we had to go back and revisit everything and redo it so I mean it I would say that we could do something like that we could talk about the same make a recommendation not putting stone and then come back and revisit all of that at the end so that that is something that we ended up kind of pollution often do and that way. You have to do it. But it's just going to point to what representative makes that yesterday basically I mean this this is just a recommendation that could all change completely in January that's what he said so. I mean I I I appreciate represent Godfrey at I think that that could have been fruitful I I was hoping that we could hear recommendations and incorporate those into a final draft that was my my goal of mine. Well those recommendations that everybody has talked about today and in the past will go into the final report and recommendations for the Department ed look at for new legislation to come up with and if you have made recommendations and is something the department it will have to do next session you will you know you I would challenge you to get with them to work on those recommendations can can I ask a quick question some members submitted drafts of that may want to change them I'm sure we give them of the ability to make some other changes it's it's or what would you to their to the recommendations that they put in put in like to fill amount more to give a more give them more time to get those kind of buttoned up and solidified if they're gonna be included about already are you talking about his suggestion our draft no no I'm talking about like represent Godfrey representative Johnson with those myself Linda senator Elliots senator Chesterfield. Senator English. So I guess my question to you is Senate I have a draft. There weren't ready to present a photo. What I'm asking for is what we were just discussing the those items are solicitous all goes into the report all the things were discussion goes in the report and those are items that would be changed to legislation in the next session All Things she's asking for for if the changes and things like that it's not things we would change on the matrix right but I'm saying that they would be I thought I understood you saying that they would be included in the final report in that what you not the final final funding of matrix. Okay I was in the understanding will make the reported on fourteenth for that's the report of everything we've talked about a lot of that is in the future. Senator Chesterfield I ask questions about the written testimonies that were given yes that if they would be in the final report or not to go on the report yes but that doesn't mean it won't it would be on the foundation matrix that we're right I understand that I must yes all of that everything we talk about will go into the report which will be filed to be sent out to the public for public comment and then given to the Speaker in a programme. Right so if if there's anything that needs to be changed that needs to be final change yeah that's what we're asking for this morning for discussion for potential recommendations for changes what they talk about okay okay and in a that's what I'm still open for there's any changes in your recommendations that you have. I'm not seeing any pop up. And I'm going to ask that question does the Senate have a recommendation on sound foundation matrix. I mean. At this time no that the Senate does not we we had heard from the House my intention was to gather the information from these team meetings to create that but now at this time okay I don't have one unless somebody else from the Senate has one but we we have some recommendations my intention was to incorporate what the senators had discussed and their recommendations into the matrix. And then have have that ability to support to present that at a later meeting well as I was mentioned yesterday I'm not really wanting to push this on because we need to make a report needs to be out by the fifteenth with everybody starting elections starting budget we have a lot of things going on I believe the house is prepared to make a motion for a matrix but let me Senator full rumble of full for I'm sorry I will pull you and I didn't see you up there go ahead now this I'm sorry not a member of the committee but I hope I get a little bit a latitude I will give you a little bit alleged to but not much because there's nobody else is not on this committee to use chance at all but I will give you that led to right now no that's fine okay. All right. I'm I'm sorry I just wait is. All right reserved all recognized thank you Mister chair I think we've had a great discussion here today I think that we can all agree that there's some tweaks and some changes that can be made to matrix I've been saying that for several years I look forward to working with you all to make those fixes and changes it's going to take us all it's not just a couple of people who can fix and tweak this because remember we got to the matrix due to a lawsuit we also don't want to be sued again for not doing things correctly. There's been a lot of things said about things that are wrong with the matrix but one thing I would like to bring out we are trying to fix some teacher disparity paid in this matrix that's one thing that I do appreciate the committee working hard on is to try to fix that So in front of us today we have a proposal this is how this committee has worked since I've been on this committee and this is my third time to be on the committee that today is the day that we have proposals that are proposed and we take a vote on those proposals so Mister chair I would like to make a motion that we accept the adequacy proposal that the house has presented at the end of the meeting yesterday and with that I would also like to divide the chambers with our budget. All right I have a motion to I need a second. I have a second discussion. I understand it was gonna be presented today it really wasn't present at that much yesterday and the members really just got hand out of it are you not ability you don't want to take any questions about. I went Senate. Because I I'd like some questions about what's in it. Your question on that on the proposal all right well I mean I don't I mean you've already moved to the motions and to that discussion on the motion is this discussion on the motion so I'm I'm understanding so we're not able to ask any questions about this okay I'm still so you'll have this all night we gave you also yesterday Senate NO you do not have that yesterday it was passed out. At the end of the committee meeting yesterday. There has been no committee time for any members to ask questions about the handout that was given yesterday during the committee meeting. And so are you going to allow for questions from members about your worksheet that was handed out at the end of the committee meeting yesterday. Or are you just going straight to vote. Represent Arkansas hold your vote and let us to discussion hi my motion hope don't pull it over yes I okay we'll hold that motion. We will discuss what was handed out yesterday do we have another copy for the members that were here yesterday. the utility we have copies of that. I don't know. Senator Sturch do you have a copy I don't have that copy. I don't have that because she. I think that's all we have small windows are. If you were here yesterday you should have been handed one of those I hope you have one. When you're ready to ask questions chime in. And we'll go over those represent god we all start with you while we're a ways on everybody else. Thank you I I certainly anticipated being able to to ask questions and discuss even though there's a lot about this proposal that I am I like am I also have a reserve is worried about going straight to the vote is that I also think there may be situations that we want to hear from the Department about so I think it's important that we have this very best discussion now am I asking questions of of representative eleven or review who's going to talk about this the president Vaught. Who another motion about showing that a motion to approve at all I will require that you referred to the representative eleven on all questions that okay that he because he presented that part of the matrix it is the house version all of us should know what I mean I know that he knows it so it's just but I'll let represent eleven make those Back what you ask thank you Mr chair and I have three questions if I need to get back in the queue I can or I can just rapid fire those questions okay my first one is is about the the teacher salary increase and I just wanna make sure I understand the math and the mechanics of it represents that it looks like under fiscal year twenty three for celery enhancement we've got that for fifty per pupil. That's happening for for twenty three and you had mentioned that that would be kind of you know taking care of this school year could happen in January as soon as you know March or something to to start getting to districts and then it looks like I wanna make sure that that's not a one time bonus because it it's just one time in that salary has been my understanding that is that for the subsequent years it goes into the foundation per student just kind of that. That general increase that it's folded in to that new amount in fiscal year twenty four of eighty one twenty nine and then sustained with eighty to ninety six and understanding the math correctly. In that it's not just a one time for fifty for fiscal twenty three but it is instead or in addition it is sustained. Three that increase from fiscal year twenty three of seven four one three up to eight one two nine per people is that right that is correct it is not a bonus it is a salary increase. That that we would need to pass through legislation in January if approved by these committees as this recommendation and do you anticipate that legislation being one bill or to. I. I personally believe it would be all one package as a blanket recommendation because certainly be you know depending upon how much emphasis or to be put on it It could speak it be broken out into a separate bill okay but yes it is a stain because it what the reason for putting into the twenty to twenty two twenty three is to address the salary disparity now as most everyone knows we're working on address the adequacy were working to. Into the next biennium into the twenty four twenty five fiscal years and so this addresses that issue now it will go on the salary schedule it's not it's just it's not a one time such as a bonus great thank you for the clarification I I thought that's how I understood it but I appreciate hearing from you and the next question is is a little bit more technical and maybe it doesn't even matter but I'm saying security and this twenty five million and in security funding as a categorical and but my understanding of categorical funding is is not its per pupil based on like the type of student who might access that funding and so or who might require that a finding of that programming is there reason it's a categorical in a supplemental funding again maybe it doesn't matter I'm just trying to to. You know tried my understanding would like it being a pot of money versus it being an Restricted. Find based on student need I believe it other reason to put it in categorical came under the advisement department because as we know Senator Irvin and her team have been working on school safety developing a plan and working with the commission on how that would be funded per school okay and so by putting it in categorical that still allows that leniency to address it on a per school need okay not necessarily just a per pupil okay that's because if you do it on a per pupil need your you're creating a disparity between a smaller district in a larger district thank you I appreciate that and then finally kind of more broadly. ET looking out the foundation matrix for special ed teachers I noticed that that is flat we're so we're continuing to find two point nine special education teachers over the next biennium and that really is probably the biggest concern to me up this proposal is that were seen that stay flat and I think that that kind of speaks to the conversation we've had about categorical funding versus funding special education teachers to the matrix our our adequacy reports that you know are are special let funding through this mechanism has remained flat while the number of students with death defying disabilities has increased it's risen by eleven percent but our funding has stayed flat and so. First of all where did that flight recommendation come from like why why did we not especially based on some of the recommendations we saw the need to increase from two point nine to three point three or to four point oh five or you know you could there even be kind of a over time an incremental increase that funding or you know to my point to senator Johnson's representantes point is it worth putting a pin in that sense the funding is flat anyway and in addition to this funding matrix proposal that this committee also makes a recommendation and and I can make this motion actually to. Commit to looking out I don't know exactly how would word it but to to do the work of pulling together more in depth recommendations of how to fund as special education throughout awaited categorical either in addition to or instead of this flat two point nine FC special education teachers just wanna give you can talk me through that and then kind of in addition to that this that catastrophic funding and I'll get into that later but that's really kind of my next line of questioning is about special okay so I I think of the thinking on that is as there have been multiple comments the multiple meetings is the concern that just because you put an increase in to into the foundation side specifically into that total classroom teacher column. That if that seat is not field then that money is just there for the discretion of the district to use however they want to use it and so we know from media reports that came through through the adequacy meetings over the last nine months that we continue to hear that one the greatest disparities in finding classroom teachers is the decline in special education teachers and so I've completely support the recommendation that representative Johnson made here I had a great conversation about that and he and I share a. a commonality in our our personal passion for taking care of special education students and and yeah I we've got to do that I think it needs to come to legislation but the concern was just putting it into the big pot over here is not going to necessarily addresses to address the issue just because of the current disparity finding special education teachers to fill the seat I think that. Us working towards revamping how we're funding special education and doing it through some type of waited a category could be the answer for and we can address that legislation in January thank you and so I I would like to consider that as part of the committee's recommendation that we commit to doing a more data in depth analysis of how to better more adequately and equitably fund special education they're it at a different mechanism thank you. At if I can just make a comment on the school's security those are some assumptions I've never been I was never presented with with that information so I don't have any input on that but I have been working with the department on the school safety grants and it is we have created a system there I've met with represent Cozart and and the Speaker last week before trying to work through details so on that but I'm not. I don't I'm not sure how I'm I'm just kind of agnostic about putting the twenty five million in those two areas there and creating a new categorical fund for that I'm a little agnostic about it not sure from I like it or don't like it but I don't think it will fit within what we're doing with the current just just as additional information I'm not sure if it will or not because there there have been some discussions about a statewide solution that would not even be part of the matrix or categorical spend those are again you know discussions that would happen I think in the next sessions so. My at my thought which is to leave that out but you can put it in it's it's to me it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't matter at that point at this point but but to your point represent Godfrey I would stay here and and create a new recommendation and and and work to get that done because I feel I feel like that's what we should be doing and that's that was being my hope And and I'd hopes to work an hour I need to address as a how would hope to have worked with the house that we would have one recommendation that but we were not given I have not been given that opportunity so thank you. Senator just fill thank you Mr chair in. I'm I'm going to repeat my concern about the funding. Forty three salaries. Because I do think that the forty thousand is an adequate especially since the rounding states are now. Providing more and I think we can get to forty one private placement match Mississippi's minimum salary schedule and so I just want to make that for the record again at that amount really concerns me and I'm still concerned about just two dollars in two dollar increase in funding for education support professionals because we're losing people to Walmart losing them to Amazon we losing in the cosco now that they're here because they're offering benefits and salaries that are greater than those that are in the public schools and we know entity in this in this public school arena is is unimportant so we've got to find a way to be competitive as we talk about what we really need to be doing to provide not only adequacy of but the exceptional and we cannot do it we're paying less than market value thank you. Senator Sturch. I you share this for represented eleven. Resent eleven on on the Sarah Hansen for the classified staff there were you have the forty four dollars. Extra as you see in the line below the adjustment for retirement at fifty dollars for fiscal year twenty two. Do you know if there I guess I guess I ask this question first you know how much it was for the forty four dollars over all do we have an idea how many more millions that would be it's it's about twenty million eight hundred thousand ability okay the the concern I have that has for your. The concern I have it has been brought up is why it might be just the two dollars extra per hour those employees some of those classified staff are now having to pay in to the teacher retirement system the rules change that after so many contracted days or months a classified person works at the school they're now getting the percentage taken out of their check as well so on along with health insurance going up and so forth we're now taking you know six percent seven percent other check so I said I know that every time we change our on here it's not you know just a few thousand it's millions that I wanted to bring that point up to is that if we're not going to do any adjustment then for retirement going forward maybe that forty four dollars could go up at least for the classified staff to cover some of those extra expenses that would be my common. Thank you Mr. Represent god for your back. Yes I'm sorry at represented eleven I just wanted clarification and and maybe this is better for the department but in regards to special ed funding in our adequacy report talks about special education high cost occurrences and the matrix as bad catastrophic are those the same thing or there's different or I just when I went back and reviewed the report I was concerned you know that we hide I think it was and then at twenty five million of eligible high cost occurrences that went unfunded to districts and I didn't know if that was because of lack of funding or that's why we've increased sped catastrophic I just kinda want to check that if that's the same thing And if that increased a catastrophic will rectify that issue. Representative I would appeal to Secretary key to give you a clear definition on that I know the purpose of increasing the spread catastrophic for twenty four twenty five seventeen million was based upon feedback we receive from the Department of what their actual cost had been and so we had been actually producing a deficit and how that was being funded and so right they projected that if we would increase at seventy million that that would cover what the actual cost is being to get that clear definition of the high cost versus catastrophic ideal sector key. Okay great thank thank you. Senator Elliot. Thank you Mr chairman and I I I guess perhaps representative eleven is maybe for you as well or anybody who can respond I was thinking back to when we were discussing teacher salaries and It was surrounding what the governor was present had presented at one point it was a higher a number and then he brought it down to you know but I think maybe about two thousand dollars or so. And then teachers. I had a lot of activity here around pushing us to. Put in place with the governor was suggestion but you know what those numbers and we had a pretty compelling response and and from the department of education education about how we could do it. So what I'm wondering based on our have been said to teachers we're going to deal with this and the adequacy committee and I know we didn't say we're going to have the same proposal as the governor did but that was an attempt to at least to be more competitive in the region it. Can you can you just talk to me about why we would not go for that meets go for a higher salary and a. And and an expeditious manner out because I think we're in such a precarious position of not being competitive right now. All I can base it on Senator is just at the back of the person received as I talked to different districts across the state different teachers that that maybe live in my district M. R. representative district to teach at other schools and that number just as a number that kept coming back as they felt that that was a four thousand dollar raise to where they currently are. Then you know more competitive within the district or the region of the state that they were currently employed by or whatever is an administrator that said you know we believe that that makes us more competitive even though the water level. Rises the same at least it put them more competitive with potentially other businesses that may be attracting those teachers outside the education system so you know I I don't know that there's a silver bullet or a perfect number of it's just going to satisfy the the the opinions of everyone in this room but that was just a recommendation that I personally had based on feedback that I was able to gather over the last several months and most especially since the time together later plan now. Well Mister could could you talk to me representative eleven and. Given his notion of it of the response to this question which I heard well in respect but he is talking from his point of view of the people that talk to him. What have you heard what's been the response to you because I'm the thing that teachers were so afraid of that they would just be heard and. And then that would be it. But we're going to come to the adequacy committee and deal with that and I've heard from so many who of the intent opinion we were at least going to do what was in discussion at the time they were assured this the salary issue was going to be dealt with and no teacher has said to me that somebody had said we're definitely going to do this that that's what so many of them read from our response to them if you just hold on you know we will do the thing that will make us more competitive and what's been up a proposed what we'll do that in some ways but it's just I'm not convinced. We could do better and. What are your thoughts about if we could do better just because we've got a number on paper now could we do better and what would it take to do better and should we depend on these local school districts that have to bear that burden because after all no the constitution is pretty clear about who's responsible for education this state and it doesn't say local school districts it says the state. Your thoughts please. I wish you. Yes I was like why could we not evinced no it's already answered. My thoughts you know I yes I believe we have done better I believe we have been doing well is because I don't want to miss answer my question I'm not asking I'm not saying we have we're not doing better in the proposal I'm asking why could we not do I do better and at least reach for something that's going to make us more competitive in line with kind of what so many teachers were thinking we were going to do I'm asking why we could not do that and do better not that your proposal is not better I'm not suggesting that it's not better I think that this is what we have worked on this is what our goal was the goal has been a hard fought gold to get there I believe in the next year that goal jokes and in jokes again you know we just got a hold our schools accountable to move that mark along with us this was a stark is put a pretty good jump into their salaries and we're gonna move that that markup and it's going to continue to market moves but you also got to teacher equalization salary in there thank you used to move that mark and with the combination of both of those we can move that mark up but we have to have the support of our school boards in our superintendents to help us move that mark and not put it in a bucket and let it sit flat like they've done for so many years so I think the legislature has been very diligent in funding of our teachers. Fairly well also a fairly that was that was it the best no but I think we're making that best mark right now and this doesn't stop us from doing this again in the future but I think right now this is the market we have fought for Brian has Vaught very hard for this and I'll tell you that I have to we uh all the committee members have a have questions over this wine why we do this why are we why we're not doing this so we have fought really hard to get this number I believe this is the number that we can I do this is what the teachers expected not that we give them everything they expect but I think we're trying to work with our teachers and our staff and giving them the best rates we can for the time some classified I mean classified as a number that was suggested to us from somebody else wasn't anybody in this business but that that would be a great number for helping our classified now so if. The Senate brings a proposal. That moves us forward it up a bit more because I I I think this is so disappointing to folks who thought it was going to be more than this. And. Is this for the House The final answer or are you open to further discussions if the Senate it has a different answer. We can't speak for the Senate I know no I don't know if this is a house proposal. Thanks yes force would vote. So the house would vote on it first and the Senate passed a vote on it that is totally wrong no my question though was and is to the motion itself I guess because if this motion means and you're going to and your vote yes that's the final answer for the house or are you open to a reconciliation effort if the Senate has a different proposal is when I ask. Well I will tell you has been done in the past already know that we can somebody. I'd I don't know and where to go I just I don't want to belabor this issue any longer than we have to because there's so much is going to happen in the future and quickly so I'm really. I can speak thank you today for the Senators if if the Senate wants to you know maybe we can we can continue to do that I just have questions about the funding at what. Can I ask a question. Okay just on on your and. The proposal to do this within the fiscal year twenty three which. And to me that is a retro actively doing that how does that fit within the current adequacy recommendations so we're actually changing. The current adequacy recommendation for the biennium that we're in is how I understand that. So because I believe it went from thirty three eight to thirty six and then it would move to forty with in this budget that we're currently and how would that be funded and how would that be how would that be funded and how would that work because you're actually changing a current adequacy recommendation that was passed. Your to your changing that. And so. I don't want us to get to a point where we say I mean to me that's that's a little bit of a precedence and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that. My intention was for us to have that moving forward starting fiscal year twenty four. Because that's kind of how we've always done you know these recommendations for for then The New you know than the new part of the new the new fiscal years and the new by any and so which would be August of twenty three which would be next school year so can you explain to me just. The budgetary impact or how that's funded or how that would create a change to the current adequacy recommendation. For consideration. When I hear that right now yes. That is the answer to that question so that the funding for twenty two twenty three year which is now we we also went back and revisited the matrix and change things in that matrix such as we did for retirement and health insurance so this is not that's not a no no you can do that it's it's it's it's that I talk to the Department of it about us I said we need to split the twenty three and to the future matrix he said noting at all one time so that's why we're doing it this way will be one one matrix change in the law be In there so the funding is there the the money's there for this change for what's right now The New future twenty four twenty five will be built into the new budget that we're working on start working on and so there should be no problem. Okay can you be specific as you say the money is there can you be specific as to where that money is good be coming from the FNA is holding that amount of money that's what the governor had set aside also for his proposal that money is still available and we should have no problem getting what specific pockets are you talking to you that we have to Larry Walters answer that of the Department may know what's that book you see in this apartment have that information could you come to the table to answer my question please. I have members asking these questions I need to ask them on the grass because they're not part of the committee and I'm asking for them on their behalf. Thank you part of education I can't speak for the FNA I know in the with the departments of the funds that have been available back in when the governor asked us to put together a proposal back in the spring there were was funding available in the public school fund and in the adequacy fund as a result of Well the same thing that's been driving the state surplus has also been driving the Special revenue of the department in the adequacy fund because it's sales tax and so the sales tax growth has been higher than the the projected growth when we set the budget two years ago so there's funds available to help with this process in India from a back in the spring when we work with the governor had identified that there was money available for sustainability. Since we have not run these numbers because there is a tweak that as I understood representative eleven yesterday talking about the of your proposal in the spring that the governor put Ford had for twenty five per ATM I think yesterday you talked about four fifty. So you know we have run those numbers. To see how they compare to what we put together this spring so so the adequacy funds is the finds that they're discussing that DNA has satisfied I just wanna make sure real clear because I have senators ask me these questions I've asked the to get the information for them through this process they they just would like to know how this is going to be paid for within the current fiscal year twenty three yeah I think that's a legitimate question to speak to to the ACSI I know what what is in the attic was fun I I you Robert record somebody would have to answer the question what they're seeing in the FNA I can speak to what we get and what's been certified to the Department with the Atticus Fund and its running well ahead of what's that what's that balance right now do you have a chance to so that we know is it would it would be the adequacy fund plus something else is what I'm hearing about well between adequacy and Public School Fund in remember the Public School Fund we set that budget based on numbers that we estimated during COVID so the number of students AT has not rebounded yet so that there's surplus there will say surplus there there's reserve there's a balance in the public school funding it's combined between the two it's around six hundred million. So would be that six hundred million plus plus whatever the FNA has identified from some unknown buckets hi again I cannot speak to they were looking at overall surplus numbers back in the spring but I really would defer to them on an answer now so I mean I guess that's information that I think some of my Senate colleagues would like to know I guess not would be from the house side of things because or the ones that work with the FNA and so I'm if that is good information if you can get the FNA to answer that for us I would be great to the House members thank you. We believe there's sufficient money there we've been told there is so I mean I can't bring given a right now in that I believe even to the adequacy money and stuff like that I believe we have sufficient money to start funding that. All the rest and so I don't think I don't think there's any shortage of money to fund what we're wanting to do. All right I will continue with questions thank you. Six hello hello one of the L. pools sister Senator Chesterfield and sister Chesterfield. You're you're recognized thank you Mr king when the governor first proposed a salary increase for teachers is original almost forty six. He subsequently dropped it down to forty two. Was that sustainable in your you. We believe it was thank you. Of you're recognized you have anything for the department. Russian I will represent their you know do you have anything for the department. Yes okay yes thank you Mr chair and I'm and in here Listening to a lot of the discussion but he said that the budget number was six hundred million is that what you said are you saying the real dollars no Sir that that is at whatever point time we looked and I can't remember exactly when we looked at it last but six hundred million was the combined The available amount between the public school fund balance and the adequacy fund balance and keeping in mind that those are not those are hot so many that we're using with the F. may to establish the budget for twenty four twenty five going through the budget cycle that we're going through now so but between those commitments depending on the recommendations of this body and what we looked at back in the spring putting members numbers together for the governor's proposal of that's what we were looking at basic to to base our projections on in in these revenues will be sustains that is introduced to money that. We believe that time in the spring when we put this together it was sustainable for what the governor wanted to do. Now again to ask that that whether it's sustainable now I mean that's going to depend on the overall recommendations from this body and the total amount which seems to be Wearing at this point so but as far as teachers salaries what we submitted to the governor we worked with the FNA and we were confident that it was sustainable okay Mr chair how much was the house proposal or R. or question to Mister eleven how much is a is a house proposal. What would you ask me I I've gotten from the center key so the total for the additional salary for certified classified including benefits two hundred thirty two point nine million now that is a high end number we believe that that number could actually be less because it's based upon the increase in insurance and so depending upon his insurance paid out incrementally throughout the year depending on what time this would become active that exposure to the overall insurance total for the year could be less so the two thirty two point nine thirty six would be to fund your high that is correct okay Mister chair I don't I don't this is me in my first year on adequacy let me ask you this do we ever establish a budget that we want to provide to adequacy or inadequacy. Is is there a budgeted amount. No there is not if you're talking about the rest of them place decide what how much money we can spend or have for no there's not okay and so we never do establish that number. You want to know what we have on the bottom line of this budget of this this amount no I'm I'm just I'm trying to talk to the process do we ever establish a number there what we say this is a threshold of how much we want to spend into adequacy. That was not a direct. You do it according to the need and supply the need okay so we have six hundred million dollars. And we are not funding adequacy to where we need to be. Then why are we stopping at two hundred and forty million dollars there again we're not stopping at that that is just that number of calls for the teachers are still a lot of other driven cost and that this proposal if you look at the bottom of your shoes got a sheet over if you look at the bottom of the FY twenty three twenty two difference total is three hundred eighty six million. You go to the next year of twenty four you've got a hundred forty seven million and in the last year twenty five is eighty five million so if you blew it all in the first year you have notify the rest that years sold some of that is probably already spoken for this in their budget they're finding out at this time probably that schools I'm not positive about that but I believe that's the way it works so so Mr Keyes is someone that six hundred million already spoken for. That those two pots of money combined are used to help determine the budget based on the adequacy recommendations so so as far as what is spoken for I mean it is used in the process of determining what the FY twenty four budget will be and that money is then used to offset a possible general revenue increases that would be necessary so yes it doesn't work as a standalone it works in conjunction with the general revenue. And the recommendations from from this committee. Okay in the I guess my last question is this is and talking about teacher salaries and special and different things like that different parts of the of the matrix. And have we established In. We established Collins are key priorities for the matrix as far as what we want the funding to follow. Read that's what we've been doing since January that's that's what we've been doing this committee is is ecstatic she knows key priorities going over all those reports taking all the reports by putting into this matrix on the changes that we okay let me within let me ask questions like this. We're where is that list do we have that list that we have actually come up with so in your book all of those things will is not listed just you take those priorities and work on that process. Okay. Thank you. President Murdock. Okay thank you Mister chair I don't know that were questions for invites problem or a statement that I need to get out in it's is relative to what we hear and what we're doing. In the composite of what we hear is legislate towards You know as we sit here now and would be a question for the department. I'm a list of all of them okay the you're good with the going away thank you. You know as I sit here and and and look at the composite of why we use legislative towards what we do in total we obviously if Education Committee meeting we're talking about adequacy. We dealing with a court order and we deal with priority. And we sit here talking about special ed we're talking about transportation what we've done assessment an assessment state let's do this and we're finding the to that that being less than this and then there's some arbitrary numbers that we've come up with not arbitrary there's some numbers we've come up with skews me through some study and some work. But. There's no reason. What we cannot do what we should do to make the teachers were priority and get those salaries where they need to be to make the state competitive so that we can keep our teachers and I'm talking about above what we're recommending I'm time out the more conversation when you look at the whole conversation of what we've done as legislation we cut taxes and we cut taxes to the tune of you know the numbers over five hundred million dollars. And what we say and why we're doing that in a responsible way it was stated to those that supported it which is most people in this room. Is that we will still be able to take care. Of our teachers our support staff education and the court order late if you say. That before you spend another dollar in this state. Did you take care of education first. Thank you that's with a court order status. We have not and will continue to not if we sit here right now. You take the composite of our settings of us being here of R. B.. And if you take what we've got a tax cuts so that'll mean I'm against the what I'm saying I'm for some of this inclusive of everybody getting what is supposed to get. How do I take money out the house. In the lives of the. The water district. We don't have the services inside the house to make the House hole but we're taking money it would give it away. You know we're going to charitable thing to some people that you know I'm sure appreciate those. What we got issues inside the house. We talk about transportation in the studies that I and others have done it we came up with real needs are students in on the bus in rural areas not able to get to and fro and then we come here and we find it to just some numbers. One thing I've been here heard me say this year after year that I've been frustrated with the advocacy committee if we continue to do something. But we never do what is best for us to do what we should do in my honest opinion what we should do. To support supply our school districts our students our state what the funding. And the accountability if I was it. To make sure we do we do to make this more affordable state to make us more of a competitive state I think this discussion is it is necessary from this standpoint. We can't hear I've heard this before cynical I'm represent Cozart whereby we say we got to get this done by this date we're up against a deadline. But really what we're up against is we're past the deadline because what we've done is we continue to fail the people out there on the front line. Supporting us in in teaching our children the classrooms. So my point here is this. As a total we've done some things we make some decisions as a state we cut taxes to the tune of hundreds of millions that's done now we have the phones here. M. I. reassessment of the assessment of what it before us we need to do more. The governor put for something additionally forty six thousand that would make us very competitive the secretary of education has confirmed that we thought was sustainable if we're the money's been. Let's show our people that we to support them we to support education we want to obey the court order and let's be what we should be for people thank you. Represent back. Yes and I'm my question was actually for the board of education but that maybe someone here can answer the question for me. It in the. I personnel understand the system because there's six hundred million dollars sitting somewhere. And we're talking that we can find this thing with this six hundred million dollars a part of it or whatever we're doing with it and that this might be the part I don't understand and if that money is there what. It seems like some paper dance issue maybe we should use that for that already but the but the but the the more important question is I think we ought to ask is. If we didn't use that six hundred million dollars what would it have gone to fund. It's I think you're going to have to answer that I can't build and I just representative back to FNA has come over a few because it's it's beyond the six hundred million from what I'm understanding City FNA is also here to answer questions. If if for that other portion I'm not sure what that is. Johnny keep part education so this is money that we did not know two years ago when we were setting the budget. We did not expect that there would be this sizeable balance in these two funds okay because budgeted based on what we estimated the number of students would be because everything almost everything we do is on a per ATM basis for effectively per student basis so if you have smaller lower number of students and you predicted when we were setting a budget over two years ago then you're not gonna spend as much. If you look every month at the at the D. FNA revenue report. So usually everybody looks at that top line number the first couple of paragraphs I always go to the last paragraph because that's where it talks about special revenues that's where the adequacy special revenue is reported in consistently it is been fifty to fifty five million dollars in receipts which is substantially more than what we had projected when we were setting the budget two years ago so that those are the drivers that creates this balance between those two funds of six hundred million dollars is just I said it's it's it's being driven by the same economic conditions of that have driven the the overall state budget as well as the increase in property valuations that's another driver so as property valuations go up around the state then informative taxes twenty five meals that goes up that generates more revenue from that twenty five mills that offsets some of the state funds so over time that's where that builds up what would it have been spent on nothing because we would not have had an appropriation to use that money for anything unless you all give us an appropriation to spend that and direct where it goes. So. So that we send out we have six hundred million dollars to spend eight I don't under I understand appropriations but but what you and I understand how the surplus was generated. It just seems like there's six hundred million dollars sitting out there that. You know we could be utilizing for something that. Yeah that and that's. It was my the governor you know when the governor proposed what he proposed in the spring of. We didn't know what it would be today we knew what it was back in April and may and so that was for the numbers we're looking at along with working with D. F. Nate to determine sustainability of. Thank you very much yes. So I'm gonna follow up on on their stocks is a state ability issue is is the main concern. There's a lot of concern that with the inflation that we're currently experiencing that at some point in their future there's a high probability we're gonna go into a recession. When that occurs what's going to happen to those surpluses that we currently have now. Those surpluses are probably just. A function of the fact that things are going good now we've had a big influx of federal money what's going to happen during a recession. The department would not have the knowledge that I can tell you this though with the U. R. T. the property values mean that those get baked in a so the the that local portion that the your back that's going to that's going to stay right now see a big drop from that and and that's been a pretty substantial driver on this could affect sales tax revenue absolutely so those are all things that we would we're looking at at the time with the FNA and looking at that sustainability factor okay thank you Matt. Represent makes we do have definite a here if they could come up to the table I think. It would be best because because we're this is to me in my understanding this is a retroactive changed fiscal year twenty three I have to understand that and I'm not quite understanding the numbers that that's. That's my I I fully support moving forward fiscal year twenty four whatever that salary increases. I'm just not sure how this is gonna work so could you describe where this additional four hundred million dollars is or. Can you can you highlight us more in the information and questions that are represented me. And yes thank you Robert recognized a Budget Office. I'm not aware of a four hundred million dollar pot that's been set aside for this purpose I think there are only two of. Avenues to go if you're going to get that much money one is you got catastrophic reserve fund which is one point two billion. Also in the generous Reserve allotment fund there is a one point three five billion dollars for that's what's left over from the surplus from last year the only four hundred million dollar pot if that's what you want to call it we have talked about what the expected surpluses FOR FY twenty three we were expecting a surplus of around nine hundred fifty million with the five hundred million dollars in tax cuts the proposal was passed a recently of theirs now it's expected to be around four hundred fifty million perhaps that's what the where the confusion is of course that money's not available now a person who would be. We have because of the tax because there is a hundred sixty five million dollar a low income tax credit that was that was effective January first that's we expect most of that to be distributed through payroll deduction decreases in October November and December so there is not you know. There would be money left over according to the forecast but again that's this one it's this one year that's the forecast as soon that's the four hundred million the maybe people are talking about. If you want to take it out of the general reserve meant a lot of fun that can only be touched you know if you're in session and wanted to take that out for that purpose. Those are the only possible even more. I'm sorry which question two questions that. All your questions for Annie okay I you know I'm I'm just going to comment on that I had talked with a couple of times and he's always ask about what our recommendation is going to be an adequacy and and we knew that there was going to be a teacher raise that you know I ask and he's always said that you know he's holding a certain amount for us now well that was you know completely what amount that was exactly but that's exactly kind of them out we talk about a few times so that's where the for myself for me so representative makes you recognized me get you back on the. Thank you Mr so so that's kinda my follow up here I know during the last recession. In Texas they actually had to cut teacher salaries because of the the strain on there and we didn't because of our conservative budgeting and with the recession looming we want to take care of our teachers but same time we don't want to put ourselves in a position so that three four years from now if we get into a financial bind were having to cut salaries we don't want to do that and so we're looking at this year of four hundred million dollar increase to the state budget or do these funds next year looking to add an additional hundred fifty million on top of that year after that eighty five million on top of that. In your opinion are those increases sustainable especially given the. No nobody knows the future I get that but there's a high probability that were looking into recession and here in the near future can the state budget absorb that impact and still be able to meet the obligations that were wanting to make far teachers. I can only go off of the state revenue forecast of the problem was always going to be at four twenty four to be honest we do have four twenty three we were expecting over nine hundred million dollars surplus of the tax cuts reduce that by five hundred million around figures of but the US surplus and and twenty four is only forecast to be and don't quote me about wanting to get this close a two hundred forty million. Of. If if you do the type of increase that you're talking about I think are the number two hundred thirty four if you add that to the other hundred nine million dollar increases you add to that the building of the base that we did because of the salary increases for state employees which is around forty million there's about a hundred and ten million in and budget increase request of outside education and then if you add another forty one million dollars for a pay plan you're looking at around seven percent budget increase for FY twenty four. In my opinion that's not sustainable the budget increases have been around three percent or less. If you do for casting out three or four years of three percent which is growing the budget at around a hundred eighty million a year that sustainable. You can just about look at eleven and say sustainable at four percent if you start going up to five percent and do that you unit two three years in a row are you consider you could erase a surplus really quickly if you're if you're talking about another four hundred twenty million dollars and spending. You do that two or three years in a row there will be no surplus I don't think that those I don't think that's sustainable to be honest so doing it one time we think we're okay but if we do it again that's where we get into the problem is that correct we did we did look at a scenario well when we were looking at teacher increases earlier where if we had a one time budget as you will bump of five percent but then went back to a normal growth and that probably could be sustainable it's just and I was figuring on five percent five percent around three hundred million if education needs to thirty to forty you can see how much is left for the rest of a resisting government in so. I think a one time blip is insisting uble but I think we've we've got to be careful about that and and try to keep that a reasonable level if you want to continue with any tax decreases in because of the tax increases that we've already done. In. You can't do both wealth without erasing that those budget surpluses really quickly hi thank you. Represent makes it ever everything Roberts said is correct I would just point out that in that box on this chart this is total dollar increases by year again when we look at that we know that some of that would be offset by increasing uniform rate of tax so that's not all general revenue or we're adequacy that's reflected there some of that is is going to be picked up at the local level by those increases. The follow up to we do we know if we do this within fiscal year twenty three and make this change how that would affect the current existing budgets rate of growth do we do we know that. If you if you try to do that out of the four hundred million dollars surplus that's being forecasted I suppose I suppose you could do it that way I don't know how much money you're talking about from from January because here. I didn't hear that part of the conversation I'm not sure how much your we we don't think it would affect it. The general revenue budget because. Of the special revenue that we have available to cover this. For FY twenty three. So you're just you're saying that. The six hundred million will cover its and you don't need that additional four hundred million dollar bucket from the FNA not not in the FY twenty three. Four is is when you would have to have the ongoing additional revenue. Okay I didn't understand it that way thank you. All right of reps Sir Chesterfield. When I got the wrong one of them in the kitchen for a go ahead thank you got me I got I think I've got everybody but you. Thank you I got I got everybody lit up so you don't. Any of. Both Robert and John were in the discussions with the governor my correct DNA and education was and we're in the discussion with the governor when he proposed the forty six and subsequently the forty two am I correct that's correct thank you gave him your best advice and it was that this is indeed sustainable. At that time if if I recall the number correctly with using money for out of the adequacy and equity funds and other funds education to they were looking for a hundred and forty million dollars if I recall of from the state okay hundred forty million is much more sustainable than four hundred the four hundred sounds you know unsustainable made forty two thousand starting salary and for the forty six thousand dollars after exam. Refreshes memory green. But I know the original proposal to go with a two four thousand dollar increase in the forty six thousand dollar minimum was three hundred thirty million dollars so we backed away from that after the initial conversations and. I believe that we felt like with what we have available and what's the forecast at the time was telling us that it was sustainable. With the cabbie ought that the mechanism that you all have passed in the last session with teacher salary causation would be necessary to be adjusted so that the smaller rural districts would not run into the red trying to keep up with the new minimum that makes sense to me thank you so much. Of this the represent Murdock I think you're still in there. Okay thank you I think Senator Chesterfield pretty much went to the scenario I was trying to deal with was who was in the room when we were previously the public was previously told about the forty six and is subsequently to forty two it appears as though D. F. and a. Well the chair mention four hundred thousand four hundred million. D. F. A. is saying that's unsustainable the forty six two because the three hundred thirty million but part of that I guess comes from the special fund and when you're talking about we'll come from the state general revenue I think more than anything so I guess what we get here so what we receive is would you give us that's the first thing And when you give us something we want to be and believe what we hear and we think you want to do it in a manner that sustainable because you know that it districts certificate not held instance sales so when you come does it forty six which is a competitive number and when we. Couple that with what else we've done. And then we start talking about the conversation of recession come in other a blue economics they can they could scare us from doing what we supposed to do and how to do but we didn't think about that may be what we see it with okay all these taxes because that same position because in the end so here's how we can fix this. Let's do what we're supposed to do for the teacher's does go to the forty six. If we have to do something with tax cuts and jobs a recession let's do that let's keep teachers as priority in education which should be per the court order and we all be fine let's put the people first and then we deal with those others later those other matters later of luxury. Is what I'm calling tax cuts the priority education is not the luxury tax cut is something you ought to be able to do when everything is truly truly. Pretty enough that we can do that and I'm for that the in but what we do tax because of the level we've done I'll do we come back and have these conversations. Somewhere that's not the great conversation we have a problem or tease out of order it may just be me and others that think like me but I think the priority should be different than what we've done and we can still fix it thank you. Representative brown you have. Question. I don't really. Mine is mostly a comment It's my understanding that this is a recommendation. And that changes will be made when we go into the legislature and other ideas will be incorporated and I believe that right now we have the opportunity to give the teachers a nice race. Forty four hundred dollars and I believe that we need to pass this. Proposal. We can still work on it in session but I believe we need to assure the teachers that they will be getting a raise and I think that's critical they want to know and I think it's important for us to move forward. Thank you. Senator hello and let you go. Thank you Mr I'm not sure who's could bill answer this question for me but I guess it should be I do if I guess a question When we look at our budget and look at our budget in terms of thank you to be specific with that Lake View hanging over here We look at our budget. What would a person gather. I from a budget that is our priority. Would that be education what education is a priority education because forty one percent of all the G. R. doesn't include the money that goes in adequacy and educational excellence so by far and that's just Kate K. twelve higher it's another thirteen percent so I think that obviously education is a priority and that's or the or the bulk of the money goes and I and I I agree with that it is our priority But the question we have to ask ourselves now per thank you. Is our priority what it should be in terms of commitment. Is a question there's no question when you look at the raw numbers but the part I think that we need to think more carefully about is here's a number it's forty one percent that actually used to be higher than that Hi DHS's actually cut into that if you have yes I know it used to be hired so this is going for twenty five to thirty percent of your motion that's right so when we think when we talk about and this is one thing we fall back on that education is our priority we're spending more money there than than any place else. That could be true you know if I'm spending more money on on if of mice of my income may be spending more money on on one item in my life but I actually a whole lot more I'm spending more say on insurance health insurance that I am on anything else but does that make my health insurance adequate it's really doesn't for a person out there struggling I know that's what I'm seeing right now with their teachers and education it's if it is the priority in raw numbers but I'm not sure it is in effect and the other thing that's important about that is the question that was asked earlier we are never supposed to decide what as as the chair pointed out we are never something supposed to decide what we can't afford. Inadequacy. That conversation but it was made clear that you don't say what we're gonna give every week we think a prior to we're just going to do in this case a a CPI A CPI investment raise. Without knowing if that's really adequate and we settlement number sometimes and we leave it there and that's not the way to do adequacy so what we're supposed to do and the reason I'm so bothered about having decided on a number that we're going to do for teachers without examining I think If we can do more in a very serious way. Because that should be the mark If we know. That we are not even competitive. At the regional level. I don't know how we can call that adequate. I just I just that I can't make that compute no I'm not talking to you guys and I'm talking right now I'm just talking to the committee I guess so if it is a it is is if it is a priority and it has to be I don't know how the priority can be a salary that is less than competitive where we are right now. so Mister chair I I don't know if there's a question there or not but I guess I need to ask the commissioner if he remembers when we first started because he and I work together in one of the stuff we have some of the weight backers it was drilled into us and made known to us pretty clearly we could decide what adequacy is. But that didn't make us god that we could decide it because we had to be able to defend it I don't know how I can defend that we are not even competitive at the regional level. You have any thoughts about that you can say no if you don't I do senator and in your you're correct and I I do recall over the twenty almost twenty years a lot of these conversations and you know frankly we we. We fell down on our job in the time between. Two thousand nine and two thousand fourteen or whatever it was that we did not move minimum teacher salaries of state under thirty thousand dollars for years for for years. so we do. We do have a responsibility I think other states in the moved that they have made two really. Amplify the need that that we have a state and and that's what our governor Hutchinson was working to respond to back in the spring into it in all admittedly on. Unorthodox timing of having the consideration of a teacher salary increase and a special session even put out there is a possibility but he believes and I believe that it was necessary then it's still necessary we still need to be working to increase of those to whatever level is does make us or keep us competitive. Well this is related message here I want to ask questions how much have we set aside a certain amount of money we're considering spending on prison. Expansion for presidents there there was one proposal out of the one point six two eight billion dollar surplus that we had in in FY twenty two there was a hundred fifty million dollar restricted reserve account set up in that account there was money to expand a prison up in calico rock I believe they get this wrong but I believe so seventy million years and that that's true and that's what was that that's one time money those one time numbers that's for a one time money that we really could have yes it's it's going to be what it takes two or three years to build though those that expense expansion I'm not sure how long it will take that's what I understand now from talking to the judges and other people and by the time we get to that we could have already had a salary schedule for teachers that is in phase commencement of what with with what we had. I put out there is something we consider all right thank you Mr chairman I appreciate you. Represent Johnson you have a question for the tables so as I understand the educational adequacy adequacy fund what you're saying is that there's six hundred million dollars in the education that education adequate supplies that correct. Between the balance of H. educational fund and the Public School Fund okay so is it so in those tubes proximity education but education adequacy fund has a specific revenue stream based primarily on sales tax correct yes so we haven't done any tax cuts that I know of to affect the funding of the adequacy fund no but we have cut taxes that affect your revenue which is more money in the pocket of our Kansans which gives them the opportunity to spend more money which would generate more sales tax revenue is that a fair assumption or possibility. It is so I mean again I think we're working towards finding adequacy and to say that by cutting taxes in general revenue there were some under cutting education funding I don't think that's an accurate statement because I think they may by cutting general taxes for the average cans and that's putting more money in their pocket and they can spend on items which generates more sales tax which increases the adequacy fund I just wanna make sure I understood the revenue stream from those places appropriately Mr I have a motion if it's appropriate which motion we have a motion on the table I move that we can discuss on a motion moved for immediate consideration proper motion of a all in favor say aye. You opposed no. Motion carries. represent Vaught would you like to reinstate your motion just make sure it's clear. Thank you Mr chair. we all need to remember this is not the end all be all because we this is still just moving us forward so with that Mister chair I move that we accept the adequacy proposal that was presented here today and the by the chambers. What about that by chambers yes Sir okay we'll start with the House. All in favor say aye. You opposing mass. Motion carries. With the House like to vote on that proposal I mean the Senate I'm sorry. All right. you have you have you have a some out The or bring them back in. One out. Somebody will grab yours I'm sure she'd like to vote one way or the other. A couple out I guess you have some leave. What. Okay we'll list let them do their. I just want to chill out. Okay the motion was the same as a represent dot reinstate or motion to vote for the matrix that the House proposed. And We're going to let the Senate vote on that also so I will A call that all in favor of the Senate okay I. All opposed no okay Senate opposes the matrix House passed the resolution for the resolution they passed it for that. Representive got free what is your. Thank you Mr chair if it's appropriate to have an additional motion for another recommendation from this committee if I can make that at this time the Syrian recommended I move for the joint committee on education to make a recommendation that the ninety fourth General Assembly considered the twenty twenty eight PM a recommendation to remove special education funding from the matrix and instead provide weighted support based on actual special education students served after looking at funding models from other states and collaboration with key stakeholders. Well as long ocean basically though that we as a committee say we want to dig in further and consider taking special education funding out of the matrix as recommended by a P. in twenty twenty and creating a weighted a categorical not that we require it but that we do the work of looking into the recommendations are the models from other states and collaborate with key stakeholders that that is kind of an interest of this committee to consider that recommendation more and that number going forward. Yes okay all right you all heard the motion I have a second. I have a motion and a second. I'm sorry your here okay. All right I'll take discussion on the motion Robson Vaught Mr chair don't we have to turn in a recommendation by certain time limits. To the governor's office it goes to the Speaker and up and approach him and what is that date the date is November one November one thank you. The representative Elliott center urgent questions at this the process question because I'm not you know I'm I I realize a House is about to both where you however you will. But it's just for going forward should we not have the. Entire assist Senate going to vote again on this or something because unless you have the entire motion when you start the voting you're changing the motion in the middle of the voting. Senator Elliot do you mean with no mind in addition or the defense or anybody's addition because when when the motion was first reading did not include your your recommendation that's right and I don't have any problem with that but I'm just saying I'm thinking like going forward it might really matter. That's an important clarification I intended it to be a a second or an additional motion an additional recommendation from this committee I thought that there might be support from the Senate that may not have felt comfortable supporting the and the matrix proposal that would be interested in this one and so I mean if it's in order to to add an additional recommendation from the committee that that's my intention here yeah I certainly welcome clarification of the process yeah that the process is the only thing because because I'm not saying this because I'm going to vote for the motion I'm just saying it for process only and what have you do about that you do about it but I just think this is something important for going forward I think I think it is too yeah I think we've already voted on the matrix so as to be something going forward we can and we can revisit that real quickly and first of the year put that and shall I don't miss it and I just don't want this to happen sometime when you something that's fine and I'll do whatever I need to do procedural and I just didn't want to provide the opportunity I suggestion. Yeah. So representative god rate Godfrey that's not for this recommendation but for their father recommendations well it is a recommendation out of this committee as part of the adequacy study it's just not part of the matrix institutional reckon it's and yes an additional policy recommendations that is not a line item seizing on the matrix but has come from the work of this committee out of this committee based on the adequacy report I understand and I worded it to be in our thoughts are required that we changed you know to to categorical but that we consider. That twenty twenty recommendation that we collaborate with key stakeholders and that we look at an affected models from other states and location yeah I thought it I thought you meant trying to fix it this time and I was like are we going to do that before November first you know that we are thank you for clarification absolutely yes I think we understand where you're at I got one more question this in line. Represented me thank you Mr and I I'm I'm and I'm not opposed to the looking at this my question is more procedural question because this committee will expire in January so anything we do. You know there's a whole new Education Committee that's gonna be formed in January and so this committee can't bind that committee to do anything in January so that's kinda Michael Mike my question here is anything that we do has to be done I don't know for and have anymore meetings that a member that's one goes to a recommendation right to be a recommendation for the whichever general somebody's coming up on. Ninety four General Assembly okay and that's all we can do is make a recommendation of those that move on to that can pick those up and run with them and go from there all right I will take on the that was the motion the second we had discussion all in favor say aye. He opposed. All right that recommendation we put into the file also and move forward. I guess there is no other business to come before us today. It is a hobby entertain a motion for German. The motion and a second we are adjourned.