Education Committee- House and Senate Meeting Jointly

It on public education. Members want to walk you through quickly the process of how we will take up these lottery scholarship bills this afternoon. The first the first item that we would do is we've asked Carlos economist to be here he is at the front table now. He is going to go through each of these bills and he is going to give you the fiscal impact The New revenue out of scholar I'd of lottery proceeds it will take to fund each of these scholarships. after he goes through each one of those if you have a question about the amount he will be happy to answer that if you have more of a technical question I'm sure he will ask Dr Markham to come to the table to assist him in providing that information to you. Once their report is completed. We will start at the top. And we will get a call each bill sponsor wanted time to the table to present their bill and to take questions from committee after all questions have been answered. They will be excused and we will go to the next bill sponsor and we will allow each bill sponsor them to present their bill and answer questions. After that is completed we will start back at the top with the first bill sponsor and allow them to close for their bill. We will debate the bill and then we will vote on whether to move that bill forward as a new lottery scholarship or an increase to a current lottery scholarship. the house will vote first. And it wants the bill if the bill passes through the house then the Senate will vote. Any questions from anyone. You are not limited to only vote on a certain number you will vote individually on each bill. So I think there was some confusion of you know which ones can I vote on what and I but I you will be allowed to vote on each bill you can go ahead and make note Senate bill two O. two by Senator English. We are not going to hear a presentation on that bill it is being withdrawn and Senate bill two O. three by Senator Wallace we will not be hearing that bill it is being withdrawn. Seeing no questions. Purcell will start with you if you like to start at the top of the list go through those and explain what the fiscal impact will be on each of these bills whenever you're ready. Thank you Mr chairman. So before I start talking about each one of those views of the impacted just one referred to Arkansas Code six eighty five five oh two and that's the Lotto fiscal impact statements that's what that's based from so based on that. I'm gonna start here which with each one of those so thirteen thirteen sponsor Lundstrum. Impact the two million. Fifty three dollars and two hundred thirty six. Senate bill tool to sponsor English you can pass over that one it's not gonna run. So the first one you said a house bill thirteen thirty three representive Lundstrum has an impact of two million and fifty three to thirty six okay. Next one on the list is Senate bill tool three you can pass over that one. Senate bill two forty nine. Sponsors English. Impact thirteen million five hundred thirty one seven hundred three. So thirteen million five hundred thirty one thousand seven hundred three dollars. Sorry. So many states to forty nine College eyes those are two forty eight to forty eight was the one you just read yeah forty eight S. R. as in five thirty one seven oh three that's on two forty eight yes Sir yes Sir. Two forty nine. Okay so those two forty eight to forty eight yeah I got I got order unfortunates to jewel three and I say to forty instead of two forty nine. Right on the back of the page two forty eight to thirteen million five thirty one seven oh three yes Sir now to forty nine to forty nine we have one million and six hundred thousand. Okay one million six hundred thousand on two forty nine. Fourteen twelve sponsor may bury. Zero. Fourteen thirteen sponsor lunch sorry so fourteen twelve is zero. Fourteen thirteen Spaso Lundstrum. Two million. Fourteen fifteen sponsor Lundstrum. Also two million. Fourteen sixteen Lundstrum. Zero. And fourteen seventeen sponsor Lundstrum zero. Does anyone need any of these repeated for the value of the fiscal impact. Thirteen thirty three is two million. Fifty three dollars or two. Two million fifty three thousand two hundred thirty six. Two zero five three two three six. Anyone need any others repeated. C. nine is anyone have any questions regarding the value sorry. We got. Does anyone have any questions regarding the value of how it was computed for the fiscal impact of any of those listed. C. nine. Thank you for Sir for providing the work in the information's afternoon thank you Mr chairman we will be able to stick around for a few minutes just in case there's any questions yes Sir thank you. All right members we will now start with a presentation on these. Bills. We will start with house bill thirteen thirty three representative Lundstrum. Whatever you're ready may I present your bill. Thank you chairman eleven. House bill thirteen thirty three is a bill to add ninth and tenth grade to lottery scholarship these kids are starting to take college level courses early as some of you are aware ninth and tenth graders some of them don't drive so they're not going to junior college but they're taking these concurrent courses right there in their high schools and most of them were taking just one putting their toe in the ninth grade and maybe you're taking one class maybe two in the tenth grade I think our economist was pretty close we did a lot of massive just trying to just check for ourselves a lot of schools don't offer these classes but some are starting to a lot of kids can't afford to take these classes but if they have a chance at lottery scholarship they're gonna start some other college concurrent classes as early as the ninth grade we need to encourage these kids to dream big and start early so with that entertain any questions. Senator Hammer you're recognized for a question the question I just need to get educated a little bit out so how much does it cost per student for a of a class at a hundred fifty eight dollars. And is that currently paid by the. Higher ed institution that is offering the concurrent credit on the high school campus Sir no Sir that's completely out of their pocket so it's it's a little bit difficult for some family so for that okay and do you know how many students are currently in the. Is is offered now for what age group which is only offered right now in the tenth and eleventh and twelfth grade not ninth and tenth and currently in Arkansas we have about thirty six thousand seven hundred students in the ninth grade and about that same amount in the tenth grade the estimates are less than about seven percent will actually take advantage of this so. And then the ninth grade. If you just just make the math easy. That if you missed it by ten percent that's about three thousand six hundred and seventy kids. If they all took one class you to spend about five hundred eighty seven thousand dollars. Okay our thank you. Propulsion centre Dotson you're recognized thank you Mr chair and I'm not sure if you sit cover this at the beginning or if it this is a question for staff just in general broad sense. Do we have an idea of. About how many how much fund wise we're dealing with here we have fourteen point five million dollars available fourteen point five thank you. Senator Chesterfield you're recognized thank you Mr chair is any of that fourteen point five already allocated. Or is all discount going to be what is going to do a drive down the Senate so and in the meeting conversations the Senator English I've had with Senator Hickey kind overseen the fund balances of this that's the number that he gave us that we would have available for these bill applications for lottery scholarships. This would be fine going forward we have it today well we have it. Going forward according Hickey yes ma'am okay thank you. Any other questions for representative Lundstrum on house bill thirteen thirty three. Representative Duke you're recognized thank you Mr chair forgive me represent Lundstrum I'm I and many missing something on this how does this apply or stack as they move through college with the they take classes there has applied to the hours they have to carry when they move freshman junior senior year of college this allows a kid to start in the ninth grade taking concurrent classes so if they're taking a college algebra class in ninth grade by the time they get to college of course they won't have to take that college algebra so by the time they graduate high school they could graduate with an associate's degree at the same time they graduate high school. So this is going to save kids a lot of money and specific families a lot of money and hopefully with their appetites for continuing on to college and finishing their bachelor's that much faster hopefully getting a masters that much quicker and getting out the job force we have a lot of schools now starting to offer LPN programs they just don't have enough instructors and so this helps them get concurrent classes with partner with the local junior college so this is a big opportunity for our kids to start early and the challenge those kids especially in the ninth grade in the tenth grade. It them started early and looking towards do they want to go into college they want to go into vo tech what they want to do getting a concurrent scholarship and doubling that amount of time taking a college level history course at college level algebra course. Usually utilizing their time is a good idea. You're recognized. So the clock starts ticking on them on the hours starting at their yes ma'am they do start taking right then there in the ninth grade and applies all the way just like everybody else yes. Members if you have a when you have a question if you want to school and leave your Mike up allow some leniency just if you've got a couple questions just go ahead ask as long as we're not just rolling on with that uh then you just respective others then we'll just let you go and ask whatever questions you have which will make sure that everybody gets your questions answered Senator Hammer youre next thank you all in state institutions honor the concurrent credits yes I'm aware that they do what about out of state if the student takes a P. in Arkansas wants to go to another college out of state they're not going to honor that. It's a calculated in the numbers that we are given that or how would a student no in the ninth grade if what we're going to pay for my time to get to be a senior would actually serve value if they're going to go to an out of state college with a graduate with an associate's degree that's already an associate's degree. So. Rage what was an associate you're if they don't graduate associate's degree now but they will be able to have some hours that and that's what everyone thinks it's a school councils going to help them with but no matter what they're still going to graduate with some hours that will be able to apply now can we guess what they're going to go to Texas how that's going to fly we don't know but I'm sure because the school council can help them with that but the money will of already been spent yes without us being able to show in the financial was that calculated in as far as percentage of students that are going out of state now verses number the standard you know if that was in the in the financial impact no Sir okay thank you. Represent Cozart. Lundstrum would you agree that there are any schools offering a associates degree availability of a lot of our schools already without this there is there are they they don't have the financial the kids don't have the financial ability to take those concurrent classes. Some of our schools are offering for free in my area I know they are so but I don't know if they're doing that in a lot of the other place the statement I have two schools in the area that I represent to do that when those kids if they're if they have the timing of qualifications I can take those classes and come out with associates degrees and put your time into it so I just wondered if if that's gonna I don't know how that would affect any of the schools around us are already offering that are they going to try to get these kids that S. for the lottery scholarship to help pay for that or what so just a question. It's a legitimate question. Senator Chesterfield yes Mr I'd like to hear from direct Markham. On the on the bill Dr Martin feud come forward please. Identify yourself for the record and you prepare to take questions. Thank you Mr chair Maria Markham director division of higher education Dr Martin. I'm happy when any kid gets extra credit so they can go ahead graduate and I want the maker of the motion to understand that I'm concerned about how it's gonna work has happy it looking at how this is going to work. Of higher rates neutral on this on this bill we already support students in the eleventh and twelfth grade through the concurrent challenge scholarship so we have the mechanism in place this would just it would expand it down into the lower rates and increase that the costs for the program okay well I guess I'm I'm and I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that we have precocious ninth graders we're going to be able to take advantage of it certainly I worry having taught ninth grade about the. About the majority of them. In taking these courses a representative Lundstrum how many give me a ballpark figure issue how many students you think will be able to take advantage of this. Senator Chesterfield I'm not sure probably be statewide about three thousand three thousand seventy I'm I'm hoping that kids in schools that don't have the advantages of some of the other schools will be able to work with their junior colleges or their colleges of higher ed and be able to what that appetite for those precocious kids and be challenged and and that don't have the financial ability okay. Well thank you very much thank you Dr Markham is there anything else you'd like to share with us about what we're dealing with here I just want would echo what you said Senator Chesterfield we we do want to encourage the students to get early college experience we do have to really be careful with the way we counsel those kids into college classes because. It's very risky for a student to start developing a college GPA and the not grade we've had some issues instances where kids who have gotten a concurrent challenge their college GPA drops below two point five while they're still in high school to graduate high school another not eligible for other forms of eight so I'm not saying that there there are ninth graders that can be successful because we know that there there can be we just have to be mindful of how we advise students into those courses to make sure that they can be successful and not blow up their college GPA when they're fourteen hi thank you thank you representative Lundstrum thank you Dr mark. Senator Hammer you're recognized quick question for you so I'm thinking eight eight eight student in the ninth grade that takes a Class. That could be concurrent to a freshman course in college. Was a say about the freshman course in college that a ninth grader could take it and to be the equivalent to a freshman. In college that didn't take it. Well I think you have to have a pretty sharp not greater to be able to be successful in our freshman level course and that's why we have more stringent placement policies for high school kids we make sure that they got the ACT that pretty success so. You know I could follow up what I agree of that's what or school counselors are there for and I believe that these kids that are challenged we'll take advantage of it you I think all the kids will be flooded no but I do think there are kids out there that we could encourage and that would be well served to take those classes. This is an opportunity for them I don't think will be flooded with ninth graders I think we'll have some ninth graders yes I think we'll have more tenth graders yes but I don't think will be flooded with them okay thank you. Representative Hodges you're recognized thank you Mr. Just understand currently there's nothing prohibiting freshmen or sophomores from taking concurrent classes Act yes thank you for all there is no scholarship available rice they just be paying themselves. Thank you. Senate Chesterfield is just a quickie her to reference the ACT score so these keys and ninth grade would have had to have had a nineteen ACT or oral clip Cleveland on the US fire or an active place or some other tests that crosswalks to that okay so that's the that's kind of the gate keeper yes to some extent as to whether or not they're able to get in these course that's correct all right thank you. Seeing no more questions so no war that was quick representative Hodges you're recognized for that one isn't it the case that to qualify for this funding currently that institutions have to offer at least a fifty percent discount on tuition yes not apply for this as well yes that's correct thank you. Representative Charlene Fite you're recognized thank you is there any mechanism that they would have to pay back the money if they took it for just a short time to the class for just a little while and then decided it's not for me and drop in. No no mechanism for the student to repay thank you. Representative painter kind of follow up thank you Mr chair kind of follow up a representative fights question what about of the student you know gets and is failing what fell that course they have to re pay that back or how does that work no we have a a a policy for probation so they have to make a certain GPA in order to maintain their eligibility if they drop below that GPA than they would be eligible for future academic terms. So so if they're on probation they can still. Get the scholarship. No well I would think it one one semester probation so I think they have to have a if they're below a certain GPA they whatever probationary semester to take another course and then if they do not maintained at two point five they would lose their ability to get a scholarship okay thank you Mr. Representative. Thank you Mr chair so that probation would be based on another college concurrent class they would be taking yes it's all based on college GPA we only consider college GPA for the purpose of the scholarship so if they don't meet the grade in that first concurrent class. Then they're gonna take another one. To get the GPA there to be able to get off probation yes that's correct okay thank you. Senator Chesterville all got that they open their mouths generates another question on the amendment we we can fix that thank you so much takes my mind with the left okay that might fix it We're talking GPA here we're talking about kids who may or may not be successful here in the ninth grade. If they're not successful in the ninth grade are they going to be hurt. And they get to be freshman true freshman in college if the trap of the scholarships or is it just a concurrent scholarships we're talking about right now it also would of it could impact their college academic challenge scholarships as well because when we when we calculate GPA for academic challenge we have to look at their entire college GPA and they are accumulating college credits while they're doing this so it's very important that there counselors are making sure that they're maintaining grades in the class that they need that's what we have a two point five because of that fall below two point five as a high school student they're not eligible for challenge when they matriculated to college students so that's why we have that floor that they have to maintain. So by ninth grade they could look you they could have killed himself. By the end of ninety three. Because we went to the doctor because they would be able to take enough credits they can only take two classes a term so that would be a permanent discount this going out permanent but they would they would have an up hill battle they would have to do really well in some of their next courses in order to get that GPA where that needs to be so they're not constantly fighting against that continue eligibility. Issue yeah thank you senator Chesterfield if I get an object we're talking about kids that want to take these courses and we're talking about counselors that want to see these kids be challenged so we're not talking about kids that are already academically. Not prepared for these classes so. At some point these kids need to have an opportunity and all I'm asking for is that those that need a little extra help and the scholarship be available for them if they're already if their parents are financially able to help them in that than they already have that opportunity they're going to get that opportunity what this is is an opportunity for kids that maybe don't have that financial backing but have the academic will and have that academic ability to take those concurrent classes. If you're recognized I'm sorry. My concern is representative luncheon but I love the idea and I love you trying to put a floor in there for those who don't have the moneys to do this. My concern is as a ninth grader you're just beginning to accumulate credits. You're just beginning to deal with how you deal with both older than you on a new campus. Because it is nine through twelve grade now freshman coming out of junior high school fresh out of junior high school let me pushed Endicott or not push but counsel in the college courses and you really don't know how will they can do because you don't know them. The counselors don't know key it's time they get to the ninth grade. Unless you're going to deal with what they did in eighth grade. That's where my concern lies because we're talking about new keys to high school who have to adjust to a new campus adjusted not being the big dogs on campus anymore because they were in the eighth grade those are the things that trouble me because there's there's no history of what they can do. There's no academic history of what they can do a nice grain. They're just ninth grade and you're going to begin the year. Being canceled in June college course. And I don't really know how will you are able to perform because I just met you that's my major concern about nine three I have no problem I have no question about tenth grade because then they have a history of academic achievement but to for a freshman and was neutral campus has no academic history a in high school because nobody knows whether or not they can do it that's the only question that's the only concern that I have about is is that questions Senator change would you consider thinking about that sent representative mentioned months from I'm sorry yes ma'am I will thank you thank you thank you very much representative painter. Thank you this questions thank you Mr chair this questions for the Director excuse me for being a freshman here you said term is that a semester is that does that mean semester yes okay great thanks Senator Hammer okay I'm I'm wondering about the technicality of the way the bill is written because it says nineteenth eleventh and twelfth then down below it the current language public high school private high school in Benton structure if I'm not mistaken ninth grade is not considered high school tenth eleventh and twelfth is so how how would that conflict or how would how would we resolve that. From a department standpoint we don't look at how that school is classified we look at the grade that the student is enrolled in so if they're in a ninth grade enrollment section at the school whether to middle school or high school or junior high however that's classified not great is what we would be concerned with. It was as high school in the current language in it yeah I mean it's it's an office in the higher ed codes so okay that's not something that we would be concerned with and and how much are we currently spending and messages will go for the eleventh and twelfth graders right now historically how much are we spending. About two point seven million. I have a finance guy two point seven million a year. Okay. Representa LUNDSTRUM just food for thought technology center Chesterfield. Would you consider taking the ninth grade out just on the tenth or could we have that conversation I'm willing to have that conversation if that's the will of the body okay we can walk before we run if if the will of the bodies to do the tenth grade only then if that works to get the bill passed I'm willing to do that and that that's that I need would need some kind of confirmation from the body if that was. Sure could we get the financial to run if we're not you know these are to be voted out today could we the director of these will be voted out today they will be yes Sir. Any chance we could worst our financial gentleman see if you all still here could you give us an idea what do you know on thirteen thirty three and if the ninth grade was eliminated from that would be the difference in the fiscal impact. Going to refer to the agency on their neck thank you about ten seconds these guys calculator out. Mr would she have to send for amendment in order for to be voted out if we can't do a voice amendment. Yeah Nick fuller says director finance division hired it be about one point one million for just a tenth graders per year so if you limit if it's ten th all up so what. By eliminating ninth grade what would be the new number. What if it was the what two million two thousand twelve two together housing fifty B. one point one for just tenth graders. So so about nine hundred thousand less okay. Right. Okay Representa Lundstrum would you would you be willing to a. Just to the tenth graders yes Sir okay and I've already emailed Taylor void and okay. I'll be able to come back in just a few minutes with okay and made like you can take a share. And. Thank represented by your question just just make sure on thank you Mr chair just to make sure that I'm hearing you correctly do tenth eleventh and twelfth. It be nine hundred thousand dollars less correct. Yes Sir to to remove the ninth grade from that calculation would be about nine hundred less than the impact that you have currently thank you thank you Mr. Okay so we're going to get a. Legal advisement on that from from DLR is there any other questions for representative Lundstrum on thirteen thirty three. All in last call I'm B. LR's performing their magic right now yes ma'am and removing night and leaving tenth yes ma'am. Okay. So staff is advise that the amendment so we can you could have and have staff draft an amendment that would be brought to committee and this committee would adopt the amendment and then. Degree here the bill as amended. Yes Sir and we can do that today that's awesome. Thank you want me to step out and let somebody else run there's that be great okay we'll get back to you you have several colleagues I appreciate your time I do not see representative Mayberry here for fourteen twelve I did text her and ask her if she was coming I don't have a reply. so we'll we'll skip that come back to her Senator English. Looks like your next on this are to present SB two forty eight. Considering that you also have SB two forty nine so if you want to run both those wired stable. So committee members I am Jane senator Jane English district thirteen and we have the create Arkansas challenge plus scholarship program and I will let Director market speak to this bill. Maria Markham division of higher education and I will be brief as usual the academic challenge plus scholarship program is it is the exact same bill that we brought in the last regular session to add a sliding scale of the increases the regular academic challenge for students based on financial need so we would use the same calculation of the federal government uses to calculate Pell awards and we would increase the award amount for our students with the most need freshman sophomore and junior year up to the five thousand dollar and senior what amounts the way that we would calculate how much that ward would be on an annual basis would be based on available funds that we had from the previous year's proceeds so we cannot overspend this the scholarship program but it's probably the most impactful thing that we can do this low income students the financial aid is the number one barrier for access to institutions and this would be making a significant impact on their ability to afford a higher education just as a reminder academic challenge can be used at both public and private nonprofit institutions in the state five both traditional and nontraditional students so I'm happy to take any questions that you might have on the challenge plus. Represent Cozart you're recognized thank you Mr this Markham so if we chose this one that pretty well eats up most of our scholarship yes is that a is that amount that we have that thirteen million five hundred thirty one thousand dollars that did owner would exit just so the the Max everything that we have given you and I'm gonna be careful not to say too much about the way that this is calculated it is based on an all messed this up our highest three years of spending persons our lowest three years of proceeds so that fourteen point five million that we had to work with today was was an estimate of what the worst case scenario could be as far as excess lottery proceeds so we use that fourteen point five as a ceiling and then we looked at our existing student populations and and set that scale I believe it's based on twenty five hundred dollar increments not up to the full five thousand for freshman so in a year where we only had fourteen point five that's how we would calibrate awards correct I agree this is very important this is one of the ones we did this last time and I agree it is one of the most important ones that I think we were done so I just curious about the money thank you yes. Senator Hammer. This I just have a question because it reflects back to the previous bill but you have the capabilities. To determine the need for financial aid. Once they get to the college level are you able to drop down in the high school level and determines that as well as soon as they apply for the faster which is usually their senior year of high school we have the ability to determine need but it's not till they're in their senior year right students on a plot for that until they're ready to graduate from high school okay all right thank you. Representative Hodges thank you Mr. Sorry if I missed the structure Markham It says it we're basing this off of financial need as determined by the facts a. Is there anything in the bill or. Where. How we determining what the financial need is to to to decide how much extra they're getting out of the this will receive that calculation directly from title for the federal government we have a computer system that matches their student information so when they apply for the fast but and I do a universal application with the higher it for other state scholarships we received there right now it's EFC estimated family contribution other changing the terminology on that in the next The next version of title for but we receive that so we were able to determine that from her it. So the Department be making a formula based on the funds available. And then taking the FCC's from all the students to qualify and then that will determine how much exactly okay thank you. Thank you on page two ten through thirteen. It's it's being given out there committed one thousand right. Correct okay. The estimated number that's associated with this does it calculate in any students that maybe would drop after the first year or does that have any bearing. It does not have any bearing okay this is only the first year that we would implement so it would still be a full year of awards okay should applies this destroyed part to the first year the numbers were deal with only applies to the first year right yes so potentially could come in under the estimated amount it could you could but I mean we would hope to be able to fund students at the highest amount we had available. So if we had actually more than fourteen point five the note we would make awards at a higher thousand dollar increments than just a thousand dollars so a freshman instead of doing two thousand we do three. Okay. In the day and what. The financial data that you use I'm just wanna with the economic situation that it is and with inflation all that kind of good stuff. That's all factored into what you estimate the cost to be the thirteen five hundred high arriving at thirteen five being the true number to take care what would be the estimated true need coming up we worked backwards from the fourteen point five that was available and we looked at of the students we currently fund if we use their ESCs and we use the thousand dollar increments then we could find all of those need based students up to that thirteen point five that's our actual student population in this previous academic year okay and I want to thank you all talk about I've heard you all worry about is the enrollment cliff you know the the drop off would with the base with the estimated what you're estimating when that's going to hit are we talking in the next year next three years and how is this going to how would this affect that if you go excellent question it would follow that there would be less students if there is an enrollment cliff but what we know is that middle class and upper class students they're not going to stop going to college so they're likely going to be that that's not where the cliff is going to come from the cliff is going to come from students that are in a low goes lower socioeconomic bracket and this would hopefully help mitigate some of that cliff because those students would then have access to higher education where they wouldn't have before. It's it's hard to say I mean we're gonna have to constantly be analyzing what kind of funding we have available and what the uptake is but this is more this is as much a recruitment tool for students to be able to access as anything and and that would be a question is it reasonable to assume or and I stretch it to say that if this was put into place as far as may be helping eliminator or or soften that enrollment cliff you could just move that out in that it would remove a very maybe from some not looking at going to college they had yes. Yes that the national stretcher political jargon honoring that that's the real deal correct okay thank you. Representative Hodges thank you stir. Can you remind me what the the first year scholarship award is for the two year and what is for the four year thousand dollars in both cases yes okay then if. If we do have the funds available than whether it's a two or four year you would go up to two thousand or if the funds were there three thousand up to five thousand to five be the capped at both in both sectors no this challenge is not liquidated will back to students like a bill grant would be so it's only up to the actual cost of tuition fees so the two year college tuition payment under five thousand then they would go over yes it would be available. Thank you. Any other questions on Senate bill two forty eight. Seeing none. Support. What will vote on or after all been presented Senator English one percent as B. two forty nine yes okay this is thank you. S. B. two so forty nine is and concerns the in state tuition for veterans and military personnel independence once again I will turn over to director Markham. Thank you of we estimated a one point six million dollar lottery impact on this because that is approximately what we are over spending for this program as it stands so we have to borrow from other state funded programs in order to meet our obligation to the veterans who are taking advantage of this so where this to pass instead of using general revenue to fund that overage we would find that bridge out of lottery scholarships and we would be able to honor everyone who was qualified to receive it we would have to start turning students away. You senator Hammer. Okay so that is to say that. Work work we're overspending which means that the Roman under this one is already there we're just trying to catch up and what about your forecast as far as projecting in the next year to or you know to know that that's sustainable energy you're going to be a drop in enrollment or I don't anticipate a drop of enrollment we've had a couple of things that have happened that have caused this spending on this to go up we now allow these funds to be spent in our private institutions up to the amount that would be spent at a public so that's increase it a bit students have now the choice to go to a public or private we've also increased our Well I think that was really the only one was allowing those funds to be used at whatever institution that the student shows that that did increase the spending a bit and now we're also amending the language so that step kids would be eligible to receive this funding the way the languages now they have either in after one child or a legally adopted child of one of these qualifying service members so we do anticipate more kids being eligible to receive this and the costs going up so the amount that you're asking for under this one which is one point six. Is that just. To catch up to where we are or or why are you not factoring in more in anticipation that you're actually have morals we're only supposed to look at the first year impact we're giving the fiscal impact for the next fiscal year. But I do anticipate that to continue to climb and were you getting a bunch of money now under I didn't understand that part and so we have one fund for all of our scholarships and grants that's general revenue and we have to move money between different programs so in a given year if we have additional funds left and say governor Singlish which that never happens we would transfer money over from governors to sting wish to cover those so we at one point we had a pretty good fund balance for that so year to year if we went over a little bit with a different that that fund balances down almost zero so we're we're running out of Additional funds which would mean if you're running out of funds which would mean you we we are telling people no not tell anybody know yet we have that would start happening it with it will start without this. Okay all right thank you. Any other questions on Senate bill two forty nine. Seeing none. Thank you for your presentations on those will be back to you here shortly. representative may bury did notify me she is on her way here and we'll be here just a few minutes. I believe we have the amendment. Representive Lundstrum thank. Miss Thomas has that. Senator Chesterfield your question. We also have our economy is drafting a amended fiscal impact just so you'll have that for your records. Representative Lundstrum. Thank you colleagues recognize presenter amendment my amendment striking ninth grade from the bill okay I have a motion by Senator Chesterfield see a second all those in favor of docking the members say aye opposed nay graduations members pass thank you colleagues thank you for your assistance. All right representative Lundstrum you want to present house bill fourteen thirteen. Yes Sir okay. You're ready right thank you Sir House Bill fourteenth looks good thing about my glasses on. House Bill fourteen thirteen is to simply add public and private trade schools to the lottery scholarship and. In researching this I found and quite a few and actually seventeen pages of public and private trade schools in the state of Arkansas and I thought it was interesting we have welding and Jacksonville and in center Chesterfield area we have a truck driving school and a nother driving school in North Little Rock we have a variety there are pages and pages of. Opportunities but unfortunately it is difficult and it is expensive but these jobs are these trades turn around and mean jobs for our our Kansans in in northwest Arkansas we have in TI and we have in wax you also offer certificate for heating respiratory therapy physician's assistants mechanical engineering pharmacist essences assistance welders and the list goes on what I would hope that we would do is open up our lottery scholarship so that these traits. The students who don't want to go to scout don't want to go to college could actually have an opportunity to perfect a trade. And use the lottery scholarship to get a good job with that would open up any questions that you have. Resented questions on fourteen thirteen. Senator Hammer thank you so like. A. I'm just gonna grab a Additional mechanic school or a welding skill it's not necessarily affiliated with the higher ed institution or anything like that would they would funds bill to be used to go to those institutions yes. And I can give you a couple examples there is a welding school in Quitman force work Fort Smith Salem Jackson Pottsville in Conway and not everybody has an in TI in their backyard or an in whack in their backyard has that luxury but by having the schools available in different parts of the state someone can sleep in their own bed at night get a welding certificate. And convert that into a job. I'm I'm wondering and a major not know or know the answer I'm I'm talking about like over at Cody's I can't think of the agency over there Commerce Cody wage his group over there is there is funding available to students to any other internships or or anything like that that you know of Nassar okay all right thank you. I see no other questions. We're going to present fourteen fifteen where there yes Sir also I'd like to point out we cap to this at two million dollars because I think it's important that we set some parameters in the beginning. In Arkansas if we're going to say that we're for trades. We've got to put our money where our mouth is and I think it's important we start that. House Bill fourteen fifteen is a constitutional amendment requiring that are lottery scholarship set aside two million dollars for trade schools. Previous bill basically said public and private so we defined it this bill would actually go into our constitutional amendment which we have done a number of times we do that with we've done that a number of times with marijuana we say that we can advertise to children we don't do it in gummies you can't smoke in public so we have alter the constitution once the people have spoken or the people spoken on lottery and what I'm asking is that we set aside for technical info tech schools we put some money towards the schools. With that of an entertain any questions. Any questions on fourteen fifteen. Seeing none were present fourteen sixteen. Not been too easy on. I can pass over fourteen sixteen please what is completely pass over it yes okay we will not run fourteen sixteen. Fourteen seventeen. This is somewhat similar this is an order for lottery scholarship to be set up the legislation in general we set aside twenty million dollars it is not hard it's basically seed money. The legislature. Provides twenty million dollars and set set aside out of general revenue it's not part of lottery scholarship it just as seed money for the lottery scholarship but we direct those funds. This bill basically says we will set aside two million dollars of those funds for vo tech. We will this is still be part of lottery scholarship. But we will designate those funds of those general revenue funds that we set aside proceed money they will be earmarked for by check. And since we control that twenty million dollars I'm asking that we again put a special emphasis on our vo tech. We need those LPNs we need those welders and we need those truck drivers desperately. Thank you any questions on fourteen seventeen. And this one is also cap to. So there would be no increase in general revenues it just would be set aside or in part of that twenty million dollars so there's no change in the cost at all. No questions on fourteen seventeen. Representative Lundstrum I think that's all of yours we'll be back to you just shortly for your closing on each of those will go now to representative Mayberry she's now here. House Bill fourteen twelve thank you colleagues and thank you for your time. If you're ready may present house bill fourteen twelve thank you members appreciated state Rep Julie Mayberry here and I have Maria Markham when it orders yourself. remarking again a division of higher education. I called Maria of while back asking how I can solve a problem I have a daughter who has spina diffident and in the last two and a half years and she graduated high school she has spent a hundred and sixty days in the hospital inpatient. And in that time frame. She graduated with an associates degree from Pulaski tech which I think is amazing and I'm very proud of my daughter for being able to do all that with all the obstacles but how did she do that she did that because she went with a few less hours each semester she did not stay full time luckily she came in with a little bit of a P. credit and then she took summer classes in the summer classes basically allowed her to finish in the two years that is expected to finish with your associates degree and unfortunately. scholarships are not covered over the summer and so we paid out of pocket even though she had the lottery scholarship she had a scholarship from Pulaski tech which actually they did help over the summer and she also had an Arkansas rehab scholarship as well none of those applied over the summer but it was very important for her to stay on course and to not give up and keep finishing when everybody else is going to finish so I began thinking you know everybody has a different pace and all the other situations that could be out there where someone's trying to work because they don't have money to go to college the scholarship doesn't cover everything and if someone needs to work they might want to take a few less classes during a semester and take it over the summer and that's really what I was trying to address and so I reached out to mark Maria and she said that first of all explain to me that a while back this would have been really really complicated because we don't have the computer system set up for it but I think that there are some technological things that have taken place that will make it a little easier I'm gonna let her explain. We're well yes we have our new Sam Scholarship management system that is now up and running there will need to be a couple of additional and it's weeks to allow this to happen but I'm very supportive of this effort I think that the fall spring split on higher education is not the way a lot of students consume higher education anymore a lot of students want to go to school year round in part time or year round and full time so are higher achieving students many times want to goes to school in the summer so they can accelerate their degree and I think that we need to be encouraging of the students to get out pay taxes as fast as possible so there would be the only fiscal impact there would be none to lottery out right it would probably take another staff member to manage and others term that we would deal with but so there would be any direct impact is this would the students would be eligible for any additional aid if they could just use their aid in the semesters that's most convenient or works best for their family their lifestyle so um it is a bill that we support at eighty eighty two. Members any questions for representative Mayberry on house bill fourteen twelve C. representative Dick. Thank you Mr chair so forgive me if I don't understand the breakdowns of the scholarships does this include also the governor's scar the distinguish scholarship as well for that flexibility yes this is for all scholarships so this would be one thing that we make sure the to do in here is that if you were able to in a full time scholarship program you had to be full time in the summer so we wouldn't want at governor's distinguished student only takes six hours and burn a whole semester's worth of eligibility just for six but if they were in representative Mayberry solders case someone who is in the non trad challenged then they're always part time so part time would be fine for that student in the summer. Senator Hammer. Just give me a brief explanation the. How will it be is zero impact financial impact basically if I were gonna use part of their work for the summer then we would eliminate one of the terms to the end of their scholarship so they they still only get the same number of semesters they don't increase the amount that we would pay out we would just paid out over a different period of time okay Sturch thank you. The additional questions. Seeing none thank you for presentation you Mr how we we're we're we're running this so we're we've or the presentation we pass questions now Everyone is presented so we'll start back over the top we will a bill sponsor close for their bill Committee can debate and then we will vote on each bill individually so representative Lundstrum you're back up if you're ready to close on house bill thirteen thirty three members that is as amended with the doctors Amendment and you also are getting a new fiscal impact for your records to show the reflection of The Amendment of read taking ninth grade out of that scholarship. Yes ma'am. Everybody close and then we're going to go back and vote individually on each one of these yes ma'am and the total amount does that exceeds the fourteen million if every currently if everyone was if each of these were approved we would be at two four five. Six one seven we would be about twenty twenty point two million dollars. so we're going to have to pick and choose yes ma'am unless. Course we I do believe we need to vote on these individually to make sure everyone has the opportunity if a fallen SB two forty eight which is the largest by. Yes that amount was flexible based upon hitting falling within the fourteen point five. I'm getting a nod yes I'm not really a nod yes. What is it will come back to that effect we get to that I'm about it in the thirteen because when you say that thirteen. That virtually eliminates everybody else yes ma'am that is correct thank. Almost all represented Lundstrum you are recognized close for house bill thirteen thirty three as amended. Colleen's I think we've been through this one and I would appreciate it I know there be a lot of very happy tenth graders and parents would be very happy to with that I'll close okay. Members representative lotions clothes for the bill you debate. I need a motion we will split the vote the house will vote first representative Hodges you're recognized I move do pass I have a motion do pass by representative Hodges as amended. You discussion on the motion. Seeing none vote on the motion all in favor say aye. Close may. Guys have it. house bill thirteen thirty three will move forward as amended thank you colleagues. We're not building a house. Get the Senate will still vote he just passed through the house as amended now the Senate will vote on thirteen thirty three but if it fails on the house then the Senate will not vote. So I need have represent excuse me senator Hammer you're recognized like test your question if you don't mind before we take the next bill okay. So. You you mention about two forty eight a while ago that thirteen five thirty one. Is there any way to amend that amount down or I know it's a financial estimate based on you know the information given while ago but is there any way to amend that amount down before we look at the rest these or can we get answers how that would look if we did. we would bring we can let's go ahead vote on thirteen thirty three on the Senate get that one out of the way and then we will. Got a motion do pass by representative achieving center Dotson. All in favor of the motion say aye. Okay I'm sorry. You have to have a second set side drive second. I have a second by Senator Hammer. Discussion on the motion. We are. I'm just still very much confused because quite frankly I like all of them you can vote on all of them and I can vote on all of yes ma'am and how then leave the forty that's my concern if you don't have a fourteen million dollars and we are at twenty seven million dollars with all of them. Hi is that gonna work that's that's mine my great angst in support of. I think we're we're under the assumption that all of those will pass mmhm. And if they do then the only way to make that work would be. Some someone would have to amend there's down to fall with under the fourteen point five million that we've been allotted. And when will that happen today. Also we don't hold on each one of these bills separately yes ma'am they're all going to eagle together twenty some million dollars right now they do and we're going to have to come back and cut somebody's. Spending. Today today. Okay we're going to hear a. Senator Hammer. Yes inquire of the chair we're we're vote needs out is a committee. And they're gonna go to our respective just educate me they're gonna go to the respective changeovers and they could potentially die there but do we have to balance the numbers in order to vote him out here yes it is my understanding. Is that could you site where that is I'm not question I'm just trying to we're where is that in law somewhere or was that passed in the legislation somewhere in the pastor. Dr mark would you like to come explain that. This one where we as a committee are bound to vote these out based on having to balance the three. Maria of Arkansas division of higher ed so yes it is in code that that has to be a joint committee of the Senate and house they have to vote him out based on that formula so the formula produced a fourteen point five million dollars that has to be balanced so we would have to amend anything down today. As our estimated spend that doesn't mean that's what we will actually spend on the programs. But we can't pass them out of here if it's more than fourteen point five on the fiscal impact Mr my dilemma is. That I would I'd like to ask about being able to amend it to forty eight down. And that's kinda critical to how I vote from here on out because if we go stay within the fourteen five account like no other how at what point would we vote to amend any of these amounts down on any of these bills in order to make it fit as a asking as an individual member regards whatever else does in this room. Where did where we where I would like I'd like to go ahead and finish as we have a motion on the floor on thirteen thirty three okay and then we can have discussion regarding the balance moving forward okay I thank you we got a motion is second on the Senate side on thirteen thirty three. All in favor the motion say aye opposed nay. Motion has passed thirteen thirty three is now moving forward. As amended. All right I will open the floor to discussion. I would like to go in as Dr Markham. Regarding two forty eight with that being. The largest ticket item. Is in that down to whatever the committee would like so you you can amend that down. To whatever the committee would like or whatever remaining balance may be correct and so therefore we could go through the rest of these both them in or out and then based upon what amount had been used to the fourteen point five that we could address to forty eight with the remaining balance correct you may do that. Representative Brooks you have a question yes Sir thank you Mister chair I guess my question would be what would be the impact then on to forty eight if were taken from thirteen point five down to this new wants number one not sure about quite yet but you know seventy million I guess there I'm going to give an answer and then my assistant director probably gonna correct some of my details of there would really not be an impact this was an estimate of based on the formula that was provided of what we would actually do when we made the awards is look at the funds that we had actually available in the account which is not fourteen point five that's a very different number but for purposes of giving you a fiscal impact today we use the formula that we are required to use Nick how it with within the language of that challenge plus it doesn't set an actual dollar amount for how much these awards will be just as well set here is with a thousand dollar increments so that those tears can be adjusted to what level we need based on the availability of the fund. So so if there are funds available we can or anything but we can adjust those tears based on the amount of available funding that they're it all you recognized. Thank. Thank you so just to clarify my simple mind so basically students also we would still be getting awarded something just likely a lower dollar amount yes perfect thank you. Senate Chesterville. Approximately how much would they get. If this were funded at ten million dollars. Good thing it needs March. Be looking at you we may set the the threshold that the first students that have an estimated family contribution or whatever the the new categories up to a thousand dollars would get. Twelve hundred fifty dollars students from one thousand two two point five thousand in contribution might get two hundred fifty dollars and that would bring us back down to. Ten million dollars in thirty but this is this is gonna hurt the amount for the kids who probably need it the most it would read the ones who need it the most to be the first ones to get an award they would get the highest amount in and as the income because everything goes up the national board to go down okay bank but it would just be the the overall what would be less for each of them on the steers okay thank you thank you very much represent Cozart. just question so we're not cutting anybody out we're just not giving them as much so does the still allow them to do what they need to do for college Lasses with if we cut away by. In the end will be finished and does it affect anybody we've already given money to is that less of what they have. Or have an it would not affect anybody that's currently receiving academic challenge because we are not amending the traditional academic challenge of. I think that it depends on what programs they're in where they're going to school for two year college student no four four thousand dollar award is going to pretty much cover the cost of tuition and fees but if they're at a university you know that's not it's not so it goes a lot further depending on where they are but yes the more we cut it down the fewer students are going to be able to choose college so I think that's why I have a problem with so many bills trying to pull so much out of a little fun I think we I think we're really making a mistake by having way too many bills to try to call that money and so thank them at add to that this the the formula that calculates that's based off of the lowest of the for the past four years of revenues brought in compared to the highest of the four years of expenses it does not take into consideration the fund balance of excess funds from writers that it's been sitting there so there is a a fine balance that's been building up of excess lottery funds it's not in this formula because we are taking the lowest your revenues for expenses. The representative when. Just to I guess I'm I'm trying to wrap my head around is this. What I'm hearing about is B. two forty eight is it scalable down they get any can just match the proportions and all of the elements of up to forty eight can just scale correct so we could we could go through what we like what we don't like about the other bills and then whatever's left we could just a sign that lump sum it could scale to fit that puzzle piece exactly have kind of except at challenge does have priority over other scholarships are created later so we could for the purposes of this committee meeting we could scale it but when we actually implement it students who receive funds under challenge they go before students that get concurrent challenger workforce challenger any newly created scholarship afterward okay. Thank you. Representative Hodges. Thank you Mr so on on two forty eight on Page two eyes and make sure I understand you said that. If the funds are reduced and we have to start prioritizing the needy students first. You mention going from like a thousand dollars to twelve fifty and. With the language only mentions that the tears will be in increments of one thousand dollars thank you so much you know if the the most needy. We have one twelve fifty to be able to have a second here would have to it might be eleven hundred dollars so and then the next year would have one hundred dollars to be able to to have tears. And not I guess I'm confused that causes in increments of one thousand dollars that's an additional thousand dollars a scholarship right right so we can't give them an additional. To earn fifty dollars correct you have to be in another thousand dollars right so so we would give the first students from the the. One thousand to two point five see they we get two hundred fifty dollars in the morning the students we get twelve hundred dollars that thousand dollars additional. So there is be a starting point award in the the more needy students we get additional thousand dollars ninety. Okay. Senate working backwards from the. Thanks I'm really I think what we're we're doing with this is is we're just allowing the these funds to be used for this thing it doesn't matter what the number is what we're just allowing these funds to be used for it they take care of other students which have been done before so that's pretty much I think what this legislation does in we can adjust that then the numbers. However we need to up or down it's just giving you the permission to be able to do that with these two. Okay so what think we've established that. We will come back to two forty eight we'll see where we have to they can adjust make that scalable allowing balance of additional funds to go for those students who qualified for those scholarships above what is currently already in scale correct correct okay. So we'll go Now Skoda house bill fourteen twelve representative Mayberry. The state representative Lundstrum. Representative Mayberry you're recognized close for house bill fourteen twelve K. well I a I hope I shared some of the reasons why I think this bill is important we just want to give flexibility to our students to allow them to finish on pace or even ahead of schedule and giving them more options and I appreciate a good vote represented Mayberry's close for house bill fourteen twelve represent Cozart. The motion the pet motion do pass. A representative Cozart on fourteen twelve any discussion on the motion. No not a second start no discussion on the motion on the House all in favor of fourteen twelve hi close may. I have a motion by Senator Chesterfield second by Senator Bryant. He discussion on Senate motion. Seeing none all in favor say aye opposed nay. Regulations House Bill fourteen twelve will move forward thank you members I appreciate it yes ma'am we'll go to fourteen thirteen. Representative Lundstrum recognized close for your bill. Thank you colleagues. I think the best way to sum this one up is it basically allows lottery funds to be used for public or private right now we have sixty thousand jobs open in the state of Arkansas we are short on LPNs nurses truck drivers you name it climbers FOR everyone plumber leaving our skews me for every seven farmers leaving the profession there's only one plumber to replace them when something goes broken. We're gonna be out of luck and just a few years your lawyer we've got lots of lawyers but when things really break down you're gonna want a plumber. So. Let that sink in. We have got to find a way to increase. Our abilities to have both tech and this just says are lottery scholarship can be opened up to the attack and it caps it. At two million just to be on the safe side and I think that's important as well. But we're not taking away we're adding to Arkansas every time somebody gets a job it's a high paying job we're putting taxes back into our system reporting pay tax back into people's lives and we're increasing the quality of life with that I'll open it up to any questions. Representative Lundstrum is closed for her bill in Africa I'm sorry your passionate clarifying yes ma'am. A representative Lundstrum you've got thirteen and fifteen. Yes ma'am and also provide funding for public or private vocational technical schools mmhm what is the major difference between the two they both cost two million dollars or both to me doing the same thing yes ma'am so what I have to bills that are doing the same thing fourteen thirteen just as opening up to public and private. The other one is amended in the constitution. So it had to be a separate bill when you're mending the constitution to totally different vote but fourteen thirteen amending the constitution no ma'am by amending the constitution is there high threshold yes ma'am okay what is that the ratio that to vote in the house in two hours but Senate so. If you if you want to open it up to public of private vocational schools why do we need to bills to do that. I'm just following directions ma'am on. do you know what you to do what I'm told on that part and. If we don't pass fourteen fifteen or a four one of the other. The highest ratio was a fourteen fifteen yes ma'am to get past this with the the ratio for the fourteen thirteen is just a basic majority but we do need to clarify that were opening up to public and private. Does it take constitutional amendment then why have to be to have to have skews me I'm sorry I'm not making that very clear fourteen fifteen doesnt clarify it just says bow tech and we need to clarify that we're going to have public and private. I take it doesnt clarify what that terminology is a need that definition this clarifies public and private and caps it at two million this says that we're going to put the tech in the lottery scholarships is to different parts of the law. But it says on page three of fourteen fifteen a public or private nonprofit two year or four year college. Be a public or private vocational school and see a public or private technical institute yes so you're asking us to do the same thing yes ma'am only one requires a higher threshold for use yes it does it requires so and be swinging thirteen allow us to just go ahead and say we want to have this is a part of what we do. Yes but this puts it at and where amending the constitution and we have to run a bill to do that so fourteen fifteen has to be run if fourteen fifteen is run then you have in fourteen fifteen the public private and out of that and I so fourteen thirteen would not be necessary actually fourteen thirteen would be necessary because we're capping that amount. I'm sorry got it thank you Dr Martin could you come clarifies yes ma'am we do have to cap it. We have to cap that's the biggest thing about that. Not that I'm gonna do my best. so. I was under the understanding that opening this up to anything except for a public or private two or four year institution would require a constitutional amendment I was not aware of the Legislative ability to do that without a constitutional amendment so I can't shed much light on why there are two sets currently the constitution does not allow us to spend lottery proceeds on private for profit institutions we only have one technical institute in a state that's in WTI so they are a public nonprofit technical institute we have no public vo tech a vocational schools anymore they're all now private for profit and they're not directly overseen by the Division are at those are private for education schools typically they are clock our non credit providing programs for anything from truck driving to cosmetology to anything that can be taught. Basically For license or not so we have a we have one department that that license them does some consumer protection for that but we do not directly oversee those institutions. The helper to make it worse. Okay. I'll close bilk you It legislative audit then going to be able to monitor. The spending of those private entities that receive state funding. I can't speak for legislative audit I can tell you that we don't currently have a mechanism to pay those entities Do you have a mechanism to audit those entities we don't a current so this would require a complete overhaul of how the lottery scholarship is administered for that section. So we would just be at the mercy of the goodwill of the private people to say you spent the money the way we say you're going to spend the money well although all of our an scholarship programs are based on either programs or credit hours so at this point like the lottery scholarship students enrolled in a certain number credit hours complete a certain number of credit hours with a certain GPA of most of the schools don't operate on credit hours there mainly clock our programs so. There would have to be a lot of consideration on how to administer thank you this for us. We would have to have rules and rags. Some standards together for Sirtex first. Certification. That's part of the process it does have to be a license and a certification certification that's part of getting a CDL that's part of having a welding degree or LPN. These are good paying jobs that lead to good careers and that makes a difference in people's lives. Not everybody's going to go to college. But they will need to get good paying jobs in of sixty thousand jobs open in the state of Arkansas for everyone Dr there seventeen positions that go to support that Dr. Senator Hammer bill. I just ate that were Tom a constitutional amendment on fourteen fifteen yes Sir okay so what if fourteen thirteen passes but fourteen fifteen doesn't. We're down to where both of them have to pass in order for to flow or am I misunderstanding that. You know Sir I don't know for sure and we do have a constitutional we have to let three out or we don't have to let three I guess that's what the body decides and we have a constitutional amendment that we could lead out to have lottery scholarship go from attack or we can do you know option B. which is we can vote constitutional amendment and adjusted. That's requires two thirds. Or we can take the general finds that we set aside and designate those funds for vo tech we have options and these are some of those options it depends on what the body wants okay so if we let fourteen fifteen out with out any money we're clearing the hurdle as far as what's required in the constitution with the appropriate vote. But. Then fourteen thirteen. If they came out with two million and I if I got the card from the horse the horse from the court how to the cart before the horse and we would need to have the constitutional amendment to make this to make them both work together. You would have to have both of them together fourteen thirteen. And fourteen fifteen to work together so why would we need any money attached to fourteen fifteen. I'm I would encourage the cap. But but why any money at all. I guess you wouldn't have to have any money at all. I would just encourage just for the budget minded person in me would want to have a cap and set aside a certain amount in that lottery scholarship to go to vote tack. And as the rest to go to higher ed is secondary at okay could we do fourteen fifteen amended down in order to make the numbers work and just do a fourteen thirteen then. Of whatever the will the body is I'm willing to work with the. My goal was just to keep a cap that was okay I don't want a more you Senator Davis maybe in like a little more. Senator Davis you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair at I think we're all asking the same question a little bit differently they're trying to get our heads around there that the same I mean they're similar so. That maybe a different way to ask that question is yes we passed those fourteen fifteen fourteen thirteen instead of it being four million dollars would it then just be to yes okay so but stand alone each one has a two million dollar fiscal impact but if we put him together it's just two million total if we only passed one it's still two million but it's never four million total okay that makes sense thank you I ask you to make that clear I did not understand that was what you're getting at no I think we're just asking it different ways we're trying to get our head around it and so if we. Why this concept then is it may be okay to say that the safest way to go about it is voting for fourteen fifteen and not fourteen thirteen if we don't have a current mechanism to pay private institutions for so if we want to be safe. Fourteen fifteen is probably the way to go if we support this idea. I mean is that fair like based on the conversation that we're having about. I think that's fair if if you wanted to to leave that it covers and both public and private sure there's a captain. Forgive me I just wanna make sure there's a cap that's okay I'm looking as well I. And I'm not sure I see one at. Senator Davis what you're looking for that are recognized and could Dotson you just punch back in. Thank you Mr chair. At I'm don't see one in fourteen fifteen fourteen thirteen but I do see one fourteen seventeen. So is that where the two million dollars is coming from no Sir that's general revenue funds that the legislature sets aside as seed money that is not controlled by the lottery or the by the constitution that is general revenue funds that would have zero impact because that's something we already do. So in center Dotson we we put twenty million dollars of G. R. into the fund what this bill is doing is allocating two million up to two million of that twenty million specifically for vo tech is that correct in a certain lands that's fine that's in fourteen seventeen at fourteen seventeen that's only when I see. Anything related to two million within the language of the bill other than what the department said the fiscal impact was on these. Senator Davis did you find what you're looking for. Okay okay. The representative Lundstrum I'm checking right now to be I Mark yes so let's do this let's pause on thirteen fifteen and seventeen what we get some clarification yes Sir on a constitutional amendment yes Sir I want to bring Senator English back to the table on two forty eight. Thank you for your doctor mark may will stay right there. The Bill. Senator gravity today it's been a long day I'm after brevity Senator English is closed on Senate bill two forty eight represent Cozart you're recognized. I have a motion to pass by representative Cozart a discussion on the motion. Seeing none all those in favor say aye opposed nay legislation to pass the house center Chesterfield you're recognized. I have a motion do pass by Senator Chesterfield a second by Senator Davis any discussion on the motion. Seeing none all those in favor say aye opposed nay graduation you pass Senate Senate bill two forty six to forty eight we'll be advanced. Senator you want to run to forty nine right okay. I'll close for the builders closed on Senate bill two forty nine. House was will house. What you have a question on two forty nine. Go ahead. On two forty nine I just notices doesn't have a House sponsors so it doesn't have to be amended when he gets in is there anything that would require would benefit to put a House sponsor on this now before it's over in the chambers and has to be referred back for Amendment because there's no or some just come pick it up on the house side without. I think we can pick that up on the house okay. She keeps you yep we can take care of that okay thank you. I'm sorry I missed that one. You need to see you know the house sponsor on two forty nine yes Cozart Cozart is the House sponsoring two forty nine well making that. Representive Charlene Fite you're recognized. I have a motion do pass by representative fight on two forty nine any discussion on the motion. The none all those in favor say aye opposed nay. Senate Chesterville. The motion to pass on to forty nine. I have a second by Senator Hammer center Brian you have a question on the motion. just just the discussion discussion on the motion and I'm just I know we we talked about it in bunches different committees and transportation of answer English you're in there. In approach to ending **** earlier but disabled veteran is there any any qualified disabled veteran units ten percent. We would discuss that because. This open L. every just about everybody leaving the they have to be it's either killed in and service or permanently and completely disabled it can't be a percentage for the military dependents collection how do you define the how to present. Well I mean you can have a broken settlement have under president disabilities that qualify. Mmhm. Yeah and that's what we require we we get certification from the VA that they're hundred percent considered under percent disabled the. Okay thank you. That has to be permanent. Permanently disabled. Senator Hammer. The questions chair please. All right we voted up to forty eight we voted out thirteen thirty three we got to forty nine in front of us and were over our allotted amount. Are we going to come back in separate two forty eight it will have a floating balance based upon anything else is passed out that was agreed upon by Dr Martin. Okay and I just I guess clarification so we do a vote these out in your back down the total number on two forty eight is that the way it's going to play out that is correct. Okay just wanna make sure thank you. So we had a motion and second on the Senate side all in favor say aye. Pose nee. Installations that is passed to forty nine is passed on both the house and Senate. That takes care of thirteen thirty three fourteen twelve. Two forty eight and two forty nine. We're back to thirteen. Fifteen and seventeen. Seven eleven I think in the essence of time I think the body would like to have just one bill that they could work with yes. I think it's if I'm understanding the will of body they would prefer the one that is amending the constitution and have a cap of two million dollars added to that. Seventy fourteen fifteen yes Sir and with that you will pass over your with your withdrawal fourteen thirteen and fourteen seventeen I think that would be best to make a clear. Is if that is the will of the body okay so representative Lundstrum will pull down fourteen thirteen fourteen seventeen so now you'll be ready to close for fourteen fifteen yes with as amended as amended to add a two million dollar cap to be reviewed by the legislature. We don't have an amendment on the no you don't but I believe Matthew Miller is is working on that as we speak. I can come back before this body at. When we return from spring break if that would be best I realize the lateness of the hour. I believe he's. But I didn't want to not. Make sure I understood the will of the body. You're recognized. If I could get Dr Markham on. The money man back up here. What okay I want to get to the table. With the amount of funds act as a natural gas. On the money. For the purpose of amendment. not necessarily because we have about two hundred million dollars in excess lottery funds so we're going to be a long time before we had a cat. Naturally okay so. Representative Lundstrum wants representative learn from you want to capped right now no ma'am I don't necessarily want to cap but I think the body would prefer something like that and we maybe shorts circuiting ourselves with two million. I'm asking. What the what is the will of the body two hundred million and lotteries a lot of money I think we need to be aggressive in supporting vo tech. But I also realize I'm not the only one here and that we need to move in a group. You've already knocked off two million dollars yes ma'am which is my concern in. The amount of money available is still going to act somewhat. As a cat what we doing now is this just a thousand dollars to them like it is everybody else we we have no that will have to be done or rules and rex I don't think we want to start cutting thousand dollar checks we want to okay and rules and rags say wait a second we're going to go five hundred dollars okay we're gonna go down a hundred feet in the sixty S. okay I think we need to be prudent about it Sturch thank you so much that that clarifies if me appreciate thank you. Members your me just a minute we're getting some. Direction. Members I ask Marty Garrity. Director bill are to come to the table and explain. The question regarding. The constitutional amendment. What if I yourself you may. Percent thank you Mr chairman Gary with the pure of Legislative Research. I was asked whether this committee can amend the constitution with the bill if you look at the section one it includes the intent language and I would at the end of the day deferred to this is a decision that will ultimately be made by the Supreme Court there is case law on this issue but as this intent language states the plain language of the constitution may be read differently by the Supreme Court so ultimately it's a just termination by the General Assembly on how to proceed. Yeah please could you restate that I can. Article five section one provide of the constitution provides that no measure approved by a vote of the people shall be amended or repealed by the General Assembly except upon a yea and nay vote on a roll call of two thirds of all members elected to each house of the General Assembly. The plain language of that provision seems to indicate that the General Assembly can amend provisions of the constitution there's case law on this matter where previous courts have determined that they can't however this is the plain language and this would be subject to interpretation by the new courts for their determination so ultimately it's up to this body to determine how to interpret that provision of the constitution in moving forward. Senator hammer your question. Yes Sir I don't know the should be directed at Marty but it I just wanna clarification about someone fourteen fifteen if that's okay. So Michael the question and Dr Martin maybe you'd be the one to answer this fourteen fifty fourteen fifteen is the one that's up for discussion is this money going to be available to private. Institutions such as a welding school that's not affiliated with any higher ed or anything anybody else. That is the way I interpret that that this would open for profit. Private technical trading entities up to eligibility who determines. And I'll just be straight for two terms it's not a fly by night organization who determines. To the level that we hold our higher ed to who determines that this address whoever can be the recipient of that money is legitimate for lack of better term. Or magistrate were looking for at this point institutions such as the private for profit technical training providers in order to teach students they are required to be licensed to the private education board it is not a quality assurance it is a student protection board basically they pay a fee they have to provide some information up front and then dissipate over certifications the reason we we charge that fee is because these instance these entities are. More commonly bad actors that are public institutions with a lot of oversight so we see these institutions close of more regularly and we have that Senate protection fund in order to replace those students and other programs think about places like ITT tech one that went out of business it was mid semester it displays a lot of students so we use that student protection fund to to place the students but as far as do we have the kind of scrutiny for our public or even our private nonprofit snow we do not. That would be all the more reason I'd want to cap then is to test because this is a test model is what that this is a pilot programs what is turning into if we go forward with that that we haven't done it this way before so before we just open up the gate I'm thinking the cap would be a good reason to be on there and then we come back the next session or fiscal whenever and and be able to advance it. That. Would you agree. I would you would and I think we all get concurrent credit for today myself but thank you Mr. Representative Hodges you're recognized if if I can follow up I think that's why the cap is important I also think that's why rules and regular port we need to make sure they're certified or licensed. I think those are really good point senator Hammer. Your. I believe they would have to go through those racks. Representative Hodges thank you Mr director Markham could you just clarify if we pass fourteen fifteen and it goes into effect. If I were to take advantage of using the scholarship now at one of these public or private vo tech schools when the tier system still applies it would still be the same amount as the. Two or four year college to be a thousand dollars so. Not necessarily I think that the intent here and I'm not I may be mistaken as to allow some port form of lottery proceeds to be used for these schools but it doesn't necessarily mean it would be academic challenge workforce challenge we have a number of scholarship programs I really think in order for us to make this operational because of the types of institutions were dealing with they would have to be a new scholarship program derived of lottery proceeds created for this purpose because there's nothing about this would fit within a semester model of you know a classification of credit our model and that's what all of our academic scholarships are designed to date you're saying you have to make a whole. There were new scholarship program yes of what you have the authority to do that under I would not. This body would have the authority they would have to be a bill put forward to create a new program using lottery funds for this purpose and then rolls in ranks recommend that. Okay Nick units on their. I was going to the at the the award amounts currently are set in the code for academic challenge for the first year being thousand dollars second year and third year being four thousand forty those are Senate code then carried over into the role so it's not anything that we would only be able to develop and rules. So it would it would have to adjust thank you Dr Martin so would have to add some other piece to accommodate. Different award amounts for those are set for the one thousand and then three thousand two year campuses for the second year and then the four thousand five thousand on the four year campus those are in there the active challenge code currently you saying we can get to a representative loss from trying to accomplish. But we're going to have to have separate legislation to do it. But if we remove this and it goes in the law. In in the fall we're trying to you know students are applying and we don't have the. We don't have the next bill to implement it so. What we do in the interregnum I guess between is this passing and this past first and then we'll have to turn around and do the accompanying legislation but we've got to start journey I we've got to get this part done first They may have to wait but if we don't start we'll never get this done we have to make this opportunity available. And. It can take times if this passes it goes into effect. The current code what's that the announcmenet I don't I don't believe so because the. The current code does not contemplate institutions that operate we don't make awards to institutions that operate in this manner I think we would have to have some additional statutory language to put some guardrails around what this new thing is going to look like because it would require basically a brand new model so I guess it's because we're trying to get what I'm saying if this goes into effect you saying to implement it we need another bill yeah we're going to adjourn from session without that bill. It's quite possible filing we get back from most likely break yes spring break's gonna get interesting but the thing is if we don't start this we'll never get it done we will kick this can down the road I'm for and how we get there like that I this isn't gonna get assist level we won't be the end. This won't be the end but we've got to make a start. are we say your current plan is to amend fourteen fifteen with the two two million are limit yes in fourteen seventeen if we pass this that would not accomplish that I don't think so and the only thing the other one does is it just gives us the latitude of the General finds setting aside the same but you will be back in the same situation because the schools to operate on a different calendar so you can be back in the same rules and right situation. Okay thank you. Senator Chesterfield thank you Mr chair may I ask is guaranteed to come to the table. And if I can follow up quite well she's coming if you don't wish to do the constitutional voted to adjust the constitution we can still run the ballot initiative and do the general funds just as a guarantee that that's going to happen but regardless of what we do even if we do a constitutional amendment we still have to go back and said in the rules and rates to accommodate a lottery scholarship for the tech. So this is going to be a process. Just how do you want to take a bite of that apple. But if I may just make sure I'm understanding. If we don't run fourteen seventeen. I'm excuse me fourteen fifteen. That takes us off the table of the constitutional amendment as far as this joint committee is. We could pass out to actually if it's the will the body. Fourteen thirteen which funds the same thing. That would put the foundation in place. And the mechanism in place. Then if the constitutional amendment came out of state agencies and passed by the full body then this foundation would already be in place and we would actually be farther ahead in the process. Because if regardless of what if we pass fourteen fifteen out of here if the General Assembly doesn't pass that as a constitutional amendment and this is all void. And that's void and we've we're back at square one we don't have any with any way to go for so then we need to pass fourteen. Thirteen no now fourteen seventeen that's the general revenue funds to that has a lower vote threshold fifty one percent set aside two million of the twenty million yes and if the constitutional amendment comes out the General Assembly that would trigger fourteen seventeen. believe. So yes. So in essence then we can pass over fourteen. Thirteen fourteen fifteen we can run fourteen seventeen and if that passes out here in the constitutional amendment is passed by the General Assembly. The N. fourteen seventeen would be in place and we would have two million a year marked out of the twenty to go for vote to. And we can start that process J. members any questions or any problems with that procedure. I have a question Senator chest feel you're still up yes thank you so much miss Garrity since many of these vocational schools or private schools. Does the law provide for us. The opportunity is a state if they receive state funds to audit them yes ma'am I can answer that from being former audit chairman if you take state money you're going to have to follow state rules okay and the last question I have is that year is. How do we guarantee them that these people want each. I certainly don't if you put your cabinet takes care of the question if you don't put your camping and what is to keep these on toward it some of the on toward institutions and you know we have them the several crashed a couple years ago that often vocational education I think was a forty million dollar crash public institution here in in in my city What's to keep them from. Raising the amount of money that they charge for students should this cannot be put in place. Again if we put in the rules and rex we put in some limitations and some requirements they can choose to take the money or not take the money if they're bad actors we can choose not to work with them to. I I think that in and get out I think that is the easiest pathway is to work on fourteen seventeen pass over. Thirteen and fifteen and sixteen which were not running. Address fourteen seventeen but the framework in place that takes this committee out of the cross hairs of constitutionality constitutionality. Then we move to the state agency's committee to work on three constitutional amendments and one of those past and you've got your framework in place you're marking two million dollars that sets the cap in place at two million and then. All the processes we put in through rules I wouldn't be passed it but which be handled through council I think that would be a great way to get this process started members of senator Hammer I know you're jumping up over there for a question go ahead one to you and then and then one to the sponsor is there a bill sitting in state agency that is going to be the vehicle to move this forward I'm I just don't know you're talking like there's one in there we have a we passed the deadline to. Put Constitutional amendments there is already a constitutional amendment and state agencies for lottery scholarship. But if that doesn't get past will have this is back up. They'll work together I just wanna know there's one stop I would yes and I'm taking because they're still if you want to add you're welcome to a representative Lundstrum has a constitutional amendment filed that okay if that comes out of state agencies this would be the foundation to fund that right well that just raised it to the top of the list but then in my opinion but then the other question you talk about rules and ranks so are because this is something brand new mmhm does does serve hi read have the pathway for because it says nothing about rules and regulations this bill inferno amend do we need to amend to put that it'll be worked out through rules and rags in this bill because unless you got a pathway forward otherwise there's no way to work rules and rags because it's not in this legislation let's submission so. I don't think you're missing anything I was so focused on the cap I'm not sure I put in it'll be worked out rolls in ranks but I'll be glad to add that. Okay which. MHM are barred in my right on that I thank. Thank you. I'm not sure which bill you're looking at but looking for teens I mean that's going to have to go through rules regardless regardless I think everything has to. But does it need to be in the legislation now that is going to be worked out rules and rex. I'm guessing there is overarching of a requirement or authority of the department of higher education higher ed promulgate rules and regulations affecting different programs so I would defer to Dr Martin but I'm guessing that language probably already exist in the code because it's gonna allow private entities children it's a brand new pathways that isn't currently. There I just wanna make sure that we've got the pathway for representative Lundstrum I think we have. I think we have a game plan I think we have an excellent game plan and your peers what I here's here's what I would here's what I would like to ask. Is. Let's pause on this until after spring break let's address the amendment on rules being applied to this. This would be the only thing left that we would have to do as a committee and we can convene after spring break and take up this one bill we can do that very quickly one afternoon upon adjournment OR one morning or whatever we can take care of this and. That would that be agreeable I very grave I want to thank everybody for their time obviously everybody pizza and a beer okay members I just want to recap where we are make sure everybody understands so we have passed out thirteen thirty three with approximate one point one million. We have passed. We're we are holding fourteen seventeen that will have a two million dollar cap on that that would put us that would put a stand at three point one. We have passed to forty nine at one point six. That would put us at four point seven and that would leave roughly ten million. To go towards Senate bill two forty eight of Senator English anyone have any questions on that. Senator Davis you're let up. Talk off line on that representative Hodges. You're out we'll deal with it later got you. All right any other questions from committee. Senator Chesterfield. Outcome of representative Mayberry's bill that we passed we passed that out but it had a zero dollar attached to it I know I just. We had all of these things yes ma'am on together members I know this is thank you made this is a very confusing process and the more that we have on our on our table before us makes it even more difficult because I know that each of us want to do the very best we can being as is of applying these funds for scholarships for students of Arkansas so thank you for your patience and understanding today as we try to work through this process once representative Lundstrum has this all worked out on her side with amendments we'll call this committee back to order saying no other business where adjourned.