House Education Committee
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Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
0:00
Today is House Bill 1008 by Representative Harris, and I have not seen him, but I, oh, I'm sorry. Would you, Representative Harris, would you have a seat at
the table, please? Identify yourself for the record, and
Justin Harris
Unverified
0:22
you may proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam Vice Chair and members of the Education Committee. My name is Justin Harris, State Representative from District 87.
And this morning, I'd like to introduce House Bill 1008. It's just an act that requires United States citizenship or lawful presence in the United States for a person to be eligible for in-state tuition at a state-supported institution of higher education and for other purposes. And this bill, we're just bringing up, and it also follows along with Governor Beebe's statement made an opinion as Attorney General in 2005 that under the 14th Amendment, given
equal protection to all, if we give particular in-state tuition to students that are out state we need to give it to everyone and that was the opinion so this morning I'd like a pass on this bill thank you mr. Harris really had I hadn't had time
Speaker 5
1:30
to talk to you personally about this bill but I think when that was
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:35
an even think of you a year or so ago and you know we have a copy here I think when
this came up again a year or so ago the the governor directed mr. Purcell is what's being passed out now. This memo was sent to all the college university presidents
and chancellors. And I think also that I guess the question I would have of you is, and I think there's federal law that applies to this, is applicable to this situation. And I guess my question to you would be, do you think we need additional state law to support that federal law?
Justin Harris
Unverified
2:16
I do. And it goes back to the same concept that we have laws at the federal level that we've implemented at the state level. Minimum wage is an example. We have environmental laws that have been invoked at the federal level that we now have at the state level. So there's many laws across the board that we've done this. One of the questions that was asked to Mr. Purcell, which I tried to get a hold of him yesterday and to no avail, was that currently in statistics and numbers that have shown there are 1,700 students that
are attending one particular state institution that does not have a valid Social Security number or no Social Security number at all. And so that is where in the apartment, the higher ed said a public institution of higher ed can admit illegal immigrants. However, the institution cannot provide undocumented students a better tuition rate, in other words in-state tuition, than any non-Arkansas resident or U.S. citizen.
Speaker 20
3:22
Thank you. Committee? Yes. Representative Roebuck, you're recognized. Thank you,
Mr. Chair. Good morning, Mr. Harris. Good morning. In reading the memo from Jim Purcell, which went out on May 22, 2008, and it went to all of the presidents and chancellors at the two and the four-year public institutions. Are you, do you have knowledge that any institution is violating this request from Dr. Purcell or violating the federal law?
Justin Harris
Unverified
3:53
The only information I have was done in some emails back and forth from Jim Purcell that stated there were 1,700 students at a particular institution and he wanted them to look into basically where the 1700 students have come from. And what was the date of that
Speaker 26
4:13
memo that you have? I believe I'm looking here,
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
4:20
one of them was in May of 2010, and then there were several
Justin Harris
Unverified
4:31
emails back in December of 2010, so fairly recent. So you're basing your
Speaker 25
4:37
knowledge on the information that you have from the Department of Higher Education that
Speaker 20
4:42
this federal statute is being violated? From what I'm reading, yes. Okay. Mr. Chair, I'll reserve my other questions when we hear from the department.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
4:53
Thank you, Ms. Co-Chair. Committee, I still believe we have Representative Cronin for
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
5:01
a question. At this point in time, I really don't have a question for Representative Harris, but
But I do have one for the chair, and that is, have we made previous arrangements for the Attorney General and also Dr. Purcell and others to give us some guidance on this issue? I think it is an important one, and I appreciate representing Paris bringing it forward, but I think I would like to be able to understand the questions and the process, because if If this is new for us, then obviously we're going to have some, obviously there's some expense involved.
And in my understanding of any bill in education, there's a mandate that we need to make sure that we understand the cost of it.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
5:56
Only K-12. Okay. Mr. Carnot, if you're referring to a physical impact statement, that refers only to K-12. The other, I have personally visited some of the Attorney General's Office. Of course, the committee has not, I know, so I guess we might need to consider that. Also, Mr. Purcell is currently in Magnolia, Arkansas, currently, as we speak, at a college there.
But that might be something the committee wants to think about to, you know, to get a little
more in-depth. But let's put that on hold just for a second. Any more questions from the committee? Representative. I'm interested in exactly
Speaker 40
6:36
what the federal law is that governs this issue. What
Speaker 42
6:42
is the federal law? Do we have that? I have it.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
6:50
I think we may have a copy in the audience somewhere. It's quoted in the memo. I think part of it is quoted,
I believe. Yeah, okay, all right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we are. Yeah, but we'll
Speaker 46
7:11
– any other questions? Okay. Some information will have – Okay, let's pass that out also. We have copies, okay.
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
7:20
Representative Cardine. I want to make it clear. I understand the K-12 fiscal impact, But my point was that regardless of who administers, et cetera, there is a fiscal impact, and I think we need to be clear when we add expenses to either the institutions of higher education or another entity to monitor this that we understand the full cost of it. Now, one of the things we've been concerned about, and then I'll stop, it's not really
a question, but a point, that I think we all want to be sure that we understand the financial implications of the people of Arkansas. And that is my point, that I would like to understand that before I'm
called to vote on it. Thank you. Point well taken. Representative Pierce. Thank you, Mr. Chair. You said
Speaker 60
8:09
that Mr. Purcell was out and we couldn't
Speaker 64
8:15
get a hold of the Attorney General of the Office. I'd like to, if Mr. Harris, I'd like to. The Attorney General's Office is here.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
8:23
I think there's someone here from there. There is somebody here
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified
8:36
from the Attorney General's Office. And also, Mr. Broadway is here from higher ed. Very good. Thank you. Representative Summers. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't know who to ask this question, so I'll ask the Chair, and then you can respond and direct it. Is there a process in place now where a student that finds themselves in this position can have an opportunity to start the process of gaining their citizenship?
I know they can start it, but is there any process where someone discovers this and they're able to address it at that time? Mr. Summers, I cannot answer that question. My understanding
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
9:09
of the process is pretty lengthy, So if they're there in school, I'm not sure they could do it while they're in school. I really don't know, but it might be someone else on the committee, or we may have someone in the audience later on that can address that question.
Committee, any other questions? Let me go back
to Representative Carnine in just a minute. Mr. Carnine, are
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
9:45
until we get some additional information? Well, obviously that would be the chair's call, but I think it is a question, obviously, if this is federal law, how are we to respond to it? And if we're asking for the state to take over, in some respects, the federal requirements or responsibilities, then that means that our taxpayers are going to have to put the bill.
I just don't have any hesitancy there if as long as I know what the dollar signs are that we're talking about and what kind of structure to administer this does it require because in these other areas, as we all know, when we have similar situations, it does create another level, you might say, of our own state bureaucracy.
And I just want to make sure that we understand the full implications.
Justin Harris
Unverified
10:40
Mr. Chair, can I respond to that? Yes, you can, Mr. Harris. Well, first, this is not a new federal law. This is something that the universities have been doing already. We're not going to be implementing a new system to check citizenship. It's just showing if they have the documents, showing that they're legal citizens. This is not going to be any fiscal impact on the universities. One of the fiscal impacts that we will see is that, and other states have seen it, when you give in-state tuition breaks to legal residents in that state,
that is investment that we are putting into our citizens, and we will get that back when they go to a higher income tax bracket. And once, if we were to give in-state tuition to illegal immigrants, we're not going to get that money back because they will not be
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
11:32
paying those taxes. MR. Okay. Thank you. Representative Hutchison, do you
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
11:38
have a question or a comment? MS. When I – I was confused. Were we ending this discussion? MR. No, no. MS.
That's what I wanted to know. I also would like to make a statement that there's an exception to the rule for our state as far as allowing out-of-state students to pay in-state residents, and that's with Native Native American tribes that were here in this state and were forced to leave. We did not enforce treaties, and I'm sure all these wonderful students who are in Arkansas
that want to get a degree are good people who want good jobs and have the best of hearts. But as a Native American, I'd like to remind, those were the same people that moved into Indian territory and force people out and it wasn't right then and it wouldn't be right now to let those who are here illegally to take advantage of our system. So that's just a viewpoint
Speaker 82
12:47
and I appreciate Mr. Harris and what he's trying to do.
Speaker 63
12:52
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Harris, is this
Speaker 64
13:00
bill trying to mirror the federal bill? Is that because you called it a federal bill
Speaker 86
13:05
a while ago, and I was just wondering when you said that. No, this would be
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
13:11
a state bill, but it's putting on
Justin Harris
Unverified
13:14
at the state level. So it is not, in another, yes, it would bring it from the federal to the state level.
Speaker 64
13:21
So you're saying that you're copying the federal bill that's already out there right now.
Is that? That would be correct. So we're going to have
Justin Harris
Unverified
13:33
two bills? Like I said, this is nothing new. This isn't creating new waves. This is going to be something that already should be in place that we should already be enforcing, which Oklahoma has done this, South Carolina, Colorado, Arizona. But just like the point I made before is we have minimum wage laws that were done at the federal, and we
Speaker 86
13:53
did it also at the state level. Yes, sir. A while ago you said 1,600. Did I misunderstand you?
Justin Harris
Unverified
13:59
You said there were 1,600 students doing this? At one particular institution, the number was, I believe it was 1,763. Is that, did you
Speaker 64
14:09
get that from the college or did you get that? I got it from Department of Higher Ed. Higher Ed, okay. All right, so we do know that. Okay, well, Mr. Speaker, is there some way that we could get some people
Speaker 86
14:22
in here that you've got the college people with the numbers and stuff? There are
Speaker 69
14:27
some people here to testify if we want to proceed, but let me let some other people
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
14:32
ask questions, Mr. Pierce, and I'll get back to you on that.
Speaker 98
14:36
I have next Mr. McLean. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that Representative Pierce kind of
Representative James McLean
Unverified
14:44
answered my question. But, Representative Harris, you're in receipt of a memo that says potentially there are 700 people, students, who are accessing higher ed who may not should be doing that because of their status. Is that correct? That is correct. Okay. 1,700. I would like someone to speak to that. Is there anybody here who can speak to that?
I mean, I want to hear from someone from higher ed who can explain 1,700 people, according to Representative Harris, who are at a particular institution of higher learning. I mean, Mr. Chair, you're going to call
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
15:28
the show on that. We're not going to take public comment at this point.
We're still here to the community. But I take what you're saying, and I also have a couple of questions, and I'm going to make a statement.
But Ms. Webb, Representative Webb. Thank you,
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
15:43
Mr. Chair. And I'm not sure if this would be for you or for Mr. Harris, but I have a question. We have in-state tuition. We have out-of-state tuition. And is it accurate that we have students who are out of state who take advantage of in-state tuition or have their tuition waived? And that's why I'm not sure if it's for you, Mr. Cheatham, or for somebody from the department,
Justin Harris
Unverified
16:06
or if Representative Harris can answer that. Well, one thing I did on being asked from the University of Arkansas was to amend the bill, which we did so, was to make it to a lawful presence instead of legal resident.
One thing is we didn't want to harm foreign exchange students from coming into the state of Arkansas. So we amended the bill like they had asked. I can't answer the question for
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
16:32
the colleges to see if they're giving that rate to non-residents. If
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
16:39
I could just follow up. Yes, ma'am. I guess my question is if we allow out-of-state students to come in and pay the in-state tuition rate, based on some of the earlier comments,
do we have an expectation that those students are going to stay in Arkansas and contribute to the economy of Arkansas? MS. In a different manner
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
17:01
than the students we're talking about in this bill. MR. Good point. That's a good point.
Speaker 111
17:10
I have next Ms. Hopper. MS. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
17:13
Chair. I think my question is in follow-up to down the road that Representative McLean was going, and that is I'm curious if indeed these individuals have been identified, then what?
The memo from Dr. Purcell only references in that last paragraph that this is only for the purposes of determining the biannual funding. So again, what happens when these individuals are allegedly identified? What next? Good question. Are they asked to cease their education? What does the process require at that point is my question.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
17:56
I really don't know that. And I just from hearsay, and I probably shouldn't repeat
Speaker 37
18:01
this, but, and I won't. I'll recognize, Rep. Hobbs, I'll recognize her. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. Hobbs, you're recognized. Thank
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
18:15
you, sir. I didn't know for sure if that was me or not, but
thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Harris, the way I'm reading this, this will not deny anyone access to our higher education institute.
Is that correct? That is correct, and that is not our intention. So this deals solely with how much they will pay, whether it's in-state tuition or out-of-state tuition? That is correct. Okay. And the way I'm reading the part of the federal law that has been presented to us, it says that if we were to grant an illegal person who is here, if we were to grant them in-state tuition, then that means that institution has to grant anyone that wants to come to our state colleges the same in-state tuition.
That is correct. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Harris, let
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
19:12
me go back. I think Ms. Webb may have, and I need some clarification, I guess, on this, and what Ms. Hobbs just said. I understand what she said, but if you have a student coming from England to the U of A, are they paying out of state? Are they paying in state? Mr. Hobbs? May I respond to that, sir?
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
19:32
Yes, ma'am. We happened to have a meeting with our chancellor yesterday. He was in town to meet with some of us from the third district caucus.
And what I understood him to say is that they do grant in-state tuition scholarships to students. However, they have to achieve a certain grade point average. And he said
Speaker 128
19:50
the, I believe it was the 28 ACT score. So
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
19:56
we are differentiating between illegal aliens, supposedly, and then people coming from another country. I cannot
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
20:04
answer that. that. All I know is that he did state that the scholarship program, but there
are requirements on that scholarship program. Thank you. Thank
Speaker 133
20:18
maybe attach a question to the end of this. We have three rates of tuition. We
have in-state, out-of-state, and we have an international tuition rate. And yes, we do offer scholarships to people with high academic standards, but there's three rates of tuition, and people who come from other countries pay about three times the rate of tuition as an in-state student,
and it sounded like there was a little bit of confusion about that. We also, to my knowledge, almost every college that is near the border of another state offers out-of-state exemptions to the surrounding area. If I'm not mistaken, my ASU folks in the back offer exemptions to folks from Memphis. Shelby County, Tennessee can come here because we're trying to recruit students and we don't want to put the increased tuition as a barrier.
I'm sorry, I was offering that as really more information than a question. I think I will have a question at the end of this. My concern that I will formulate into a question is if we are offering illegals in state tuition and we are educating them, we are discounting for them, and I understand their situation, their plight may be due to no fault of their own, but what have we gained?
they're graduating with a degree and they're still illegal. I mean, we've advanced them in a degree, but they're going to have to show documentation to go to work. So we haven't solved a problem. We've just pushed it four years forward and we may be educating, giving them the best higher education in the world only to see them leave our country to go use those resources elsewhere. Again, I wish no ill will. I feel a great deal of compassion, but I don't know that we're solving a problem by offering illegals a four-year degree.
We need to be encouraging them to get
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
22:22
citizenship. Thank you, Mr. Clemmer. Ms. Harris, I don't see any more questions from the committee, but I'm going to make a suggestion, and this is your bill, entirely up to
you, but we all know we're on a limited time schedule today, and I am one that does not, in some committees you'll see, limited debate call for, and we do that sometimes in here, but I like to vet the bill from both
sides before we actually act on it. And again, it's your call, but Representative Carnot has raised some points that touched me that we might need to look at some
more information. What I would suggest, and again, it's your call, is that you withdraw the bill today, set a special order of business on Thursday, next Thursday at 10 o'clock. And, again, it's your call. It's whatever you
want to do, but I would suggest that. With
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
23:16
all due respect, Mr. Chair, I would like a recorded vote on the bill today.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
23:21
Okay. We'll proceed then. Mr. Jarrett, are you questioning? You have a question? Yes,
Speaker 144
23:29
thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Harris, I want to
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
23:31
make sure I'm clear on exactly what we're doing here. We're not changing anything to the federal law. we're not putting any future enforcement we're not improving accountability there's no compliance standards whatsoever and the way I read your bill and the way I read the bill here from the from the US code theirs is much more
clear of what needs to be done than yours is at the same time in yours is Is this the only statute that covers in-state tuition? Do you know? I do not know that. I don't know either, but the way I read this one, it says any person who is a lawfully president in the United States or a United States citizen shall be eligible for in-state tuition. That's every person in the United States. Do we want every person in the United States to come to Arkansas in in-state tuition rates?
Justin Harris
Unverified
24:26
That's what it says. If we follow the law, we will not be doing that. If you're going to give it to one group, then you
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
24:35
have to give it to everyone. That's not what it's saying. If a person shall be a United States citizen to be eligible for in-state tuition, if I'm a U.S. citizen from Missouri, does this bill make me an in-state tuition recipient in Arkansas? No, because you're
Justin Harris
Unverified
24:52
not a resident in the state of Arkansas. But it's talking about a lawful...
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
24:56
What does that say, anything about in-state residency?
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
25:03
illegal immigrants. My point is, I think you may have created a situation where you've made many more people eligible for our in-state tuition rate, and you didn't mean to. That's why I asked you if there was another statute that spells out in-state residency requirements. And I don't know either. I'm just looking at your bill, and the way I read it, it would, on its face,
allow a lawful resident of another state to get in-state tuition rates here in Arkansas. But I'm asking you, can you tell me? Well, I've already answered the question.
Justin Harris
Unverified
25:43
I don't know if there's any other statutes, but just like when I live in the state of Arkansas, when I went to the university, which I'm alumni of, I had to live in the state of Arkansas. So I think the rules are there and in place. This is not changing the rules of in-state tuition or out-of-state.
It's just if you're a legal citizen, you cannot get the in-state tuition
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
26:06
rate. Okay. I'm just making sure that we didn't do that. And reading the statute in front of us today, the 660-214, I'm not sure that that's still clear. All right. Thank you.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
26:22
Representative Hobbs, do you have a question? I do, sir. Thank you
very much. Representative Harris, when I read this, I'm reading this as though it is a minimal,
I mean, just because that may be one of the requirements, and, you know, a university may put other requirements on there. However, this would be a basic requirement for all higher institutions funded by the taxpayers of Arkansas. Is
that correct? That is correct. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Committee, any other
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
26:57
questions from the committee? If not, we're going to go, at this point, we're going to go to the audience.
And, Mr. Harris, I think there is, we'll
go to FAR first. Now, the first person that's signed up to speak for the bill is Kenny Wallace. I believe that's correct. Mr. Wallace, will you, in the table, identify yourself. Mr. Harris, you may want to just slide over another chair there if you want to. Mr. Wallace,
identify yourself for the committee, and you may proceed.
Speaker 166
27:35
I'm Kenny Wallace with Secure Arkansas. I'm
Speaker 168
27:39
here just to talk about the overall objective of bills such as this. Illegal immigration has been a burden to
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
27:46
the United States. Sir, just be sure
Speaker 168
27:48
we stay on this bill in particular, okay? Yes, sir. Illegal immigration has been a burden to the United States of America, including Arkansas. Arkansas courts and police departments spent $14.7 million on illegal aliens in 2004, and the Department of Corrections spent $14.7 million. Sir, you're off the bill.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
28:04
We need to discuss the subject of this bill that Mr. Harris has presented.
Speaker 168
28:09
Now, I'm talking about states reducing illegal immigration. Yes, sir, I understand that, but let's talk about the in-state tuition, okay? Okay. In dealing with illegal immigration, there are some groups who claim that we should stop all efforts to deport illegal aliens and treat them as legal immigrants and U.S. citizens, which would include things such as giving them in-state tuition. There was an effort to do that in 2005. The overwhelming majority of the rest of America, including those in Arkansas, believe that we should not treat illegal aliens as legal immigrants.
We should instead use attrition and enforcement to remove illegal aliens from our country, or in this case would be our state, and return to the governments that are responsible for their own citizens. They also believe that the children of the illegal aliens in every country are under the jurisdiction of their parents' country. Bills such as Missouri's SB 1250 and Oklahoma's – another immigration reform bill in Oklahoma have resulted in reduction of the illegal aliens in those states. Arkansas needs to pass similar legislation for similar results.
And while the state of Arkansas can't deal with some federal issues, such as the Supreme Court interpretation of the 14th Amendment, we do have the power to deal under the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution to deal with in-state tuition. House Bill 1008 will be a good start in reducing the amount of funds available to illegal aliens, thus forcing them to leave the state. That's all I have to say. Thank you,
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
29:34
sir. Any questions? Would you answer questions if we have any? Committee, any questions of this young man?
Seeing none, you're excused. Thank you, Chair.
Speaker 175
29:48
Next, we have Rich Huddleston speaking against the bill. Rich Huddleston Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rich Huddleston
Unverified
30:03
My name is Rich Huddleston. I'm the executive director for Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families.
Speaker 177
30:08
Just a couple of quick points. I guess my first point would be that this bill is a solution looking for a problem where
one probably doesn't exist. Notwithstanding the e-mail, which I thought was a little fuzzy cited earlier, state officials have found little systematic evidence that undocumented students are attending colleges or universities paying any tuition amount, much less paying in-state tuition rates qualifying for those. And since 2008, universities have required students to show proof of legal status before granting them eligibility to pay in-state tuition.
So my question is, I mean, this is not a problem. Why do we need to pass this bill, especially since there's already a law that Arkansas is abiding by? At least nine states, including Texas, already permit immigrant students to pay in-state tuition if they meet certain requirements, such as having attended high school for two or more years in the state. They include California, Utah, Washington, New York, Illinois, Kansas, New Mexico, and Nebraska.
Arkansas should follow their lead, but this bill takes us in the opposite direction, quite frankly, of where we need to be headed. And I think I would just end with one point, and that's the real issue here, I think, is about perception. How do we want to be perceived by others, especially outside the state? Do we want to be perceived as being inclusive or as a state that excludes people based on the color of their skin? Do we want to be perceived as a state that cares about all the kids that live here or only certain types of kids?
And do we truly want to be part of a global economy or do we want to wall ourselves off from the rest of the world? I mean, I think a perception does matter, and passing this bill sends the wrong message to the folks, quite frankly, that we want to do business with in the rest of the world. So with that, happy to answer any questions, and for the sake of
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
32:18
time, I'll end there. Thank you. Committee, any questions? Ms. Clemmer?
Speaker 133
32:24
I did have a question. The question I asked earlier was somewhat rhetorical, but I will ask, since you want
us to do this, what will we gain if we are educating people who are not legally here? I'm talking about impracticality. What have we gained? We have four-year degree illegals that can't get
Speaker 138
32:44
employed. What is it that we're gaining? I think the
Speaker 177
32:50
disadvantages of doing this outweigh the advantages. Again, I think it takes us I'm in the wrong path and I think quite frankly we need to be headed
in the other direction I know the DREAM Act may or may not come up this session but given that nine other states have already done that I think that's where we need to be headed and it's working in nine other states so we know
Speaker 179
33:15
it's working there I'm sorry but who's getting employed by I just want to know
Speaker 133
33:21
we have a law in the books that says if you're illegal you have to fill out a 9-9 or show documentation?
Speaker 178
33:30
I mean, I probably cannot answer that question, quite frankly, because I don't know who's graduated, I mean, what jobs they've taken and all that. So
Speaker 181
33:37
I don't have any data to answer that question with, quite frankly. Thank you. Mrs. Hobbs, do
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
33:46
you have a question? I do. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm a little bit confused because from what
I heard from your testimony, You are telling me that the students that are already attending our colleges are here legally. Is that what I understood?
You say that it was not a problem that they're already enforcing
Speaker 177
34:06
the slides? Well, based on what I've heard, I've not heard any systematic evidence, and I don't think there's been any systematic evidence presented to the committee today that this is a problem in terms of large numbers of undocumented students attending universities, much less qualifying for in-state tuition rates. I've not heard any systematic evidence like that. I've not seen any, and I know for at least the last couple of years, universities have required students to show proof of legal status before they can grant them in-state tuition
rates. So as far as I know, this is not a problem, and I've not seen any evidence to the contrary. I sure have not heard any evidence presented to this committee today. Now that doesn't mean that the Department of Ed may or may not have other numbers. I can't speak to that. don't work for them, but based on what I've heard today and based on what little numbers I've seen, this is not a problem, and there's already federal law out there, and so why do we need to pass this bill if it's not a
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
35:06
problem? Thank you. You also mentioned something effective, the perception of Arkansas to other states
if we were to pass this law. Do you believe there is
Speaker 178
35:19
a perception that this is a problem? As far as I know, there's not
Speaker 177
35:25
a perception that this is a problem right now, but I think passing this legislation could send the wrong message to potential employers outside the state thinking about wanting to come here. I think it sends the wrong message in terms of Arkansas being an open and inclusive state.
You know, that welcomes people. I mean, that wants to really promote higher education. And I think we've all heard the numbers recently about how Arkansas has too few college graduates. And this does not help there. Thank you. One other question, if I may. You mentioned several states in
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
36:01
your testimony. Do you happen to know what their state or their budget is in those states? I do not,
Speaker 125
36:07
ma'am. Thank you. I mean, that would be easy to find out, but I just didn't come prepared with
Speaker 189
36:12
that information. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Speaker 190
36:15
Thank you. Representative English, do you have a question?
Speaker 191
36:18
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess one thing I'm wondering here, we have a federal law
Representative Jane English
Unverified
36:24
that says that you can't, colleges can't give special rates or in-state tuition type rates to illegal immigrants. But then you've just quoted that there are states who have passed laws that say they will go ahead and do that. So what I'm hearing on one side is we shouldn't pass this law because there's already a law out there in the federal government.
But on the other side, you're telling us that there are states who have passed laws that go against the federal law. Is that correct? I
Speaker 177
37:01
don't know the answer to that, quite frankly, and I think I probably would defer that to somebody from the
Representative Jane English
Unverified
37:07
AG's office to answer that. But they have, in fact, passed a law that says that an illegal alien may have in-state tuition to their schools, whether it's Texas, South Carolina, whoever it is. But basically the federal law says you can't do that.
So they've passed a law that says they can do that. But what you're saying is we ought not to pass a law here that says we will not allow, that reinforces
Speaker 177
37:33
the federal law. Well, and I guess my point is, is this law really necessary? And, I mean, given, I mean, based on what I've heard today, there already is law that's applying to the state and universities are already doing the right thing here based on what they've been told they have to do anyway. So, I mean, so why do we need this law?
And does it add anything to what's already being done? And as far as I know, universities are doing what they're supposed to be doing already. And so until we hear more systematic data in terms of are there large numbers of folks out there qualifying for in-state tuition rates that shouldn't be, I mean, why should we pass this bill? And I think increasingly with those nine states, I think you are seeing more and more courts
upholding this, and so I think, you know, slowly but surely, this country is headed down that road anyway. But again, I would defer to somebody from the AG's office who's a lawyer, because I'm not a lawyer, to, you know,
Representative Jane English
Unverified
38:42
to answer those questions. So you don't agree that this law would reaffirm the federal law? Again, I
Speaker 177
38:49
would defer that to the AG's office. I mean, again, since you guys are already doing the right thing here, why should we pass this law? And again, I would just get back to my broader point, I mean, do we
want to send the wrong message by passing this law, not only to folks outside the state, but also to folks of color in the state? And I think this just sends us down the wrong
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
39:12
path. Thank you, Ms. Heddleson. Thank you, Mr. English. And seeing no
other questions, thank you for your testimony. We'll go to the next person. It's Ms. Burrowsworth. This is for the bill. would you identify yourself
the record please and Ms. Burroughsworth I hate to say this but we're going in at 11 and I hate to limit debate and we haven't had a motion to do that but just try to keep your comments and anyone that follows her let's try to stay on the point let's try to get our information across and then let's move
to the next person thank you would you identify yourself please Your mic
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
40:06
is a little green button. Okay. Thank you. My name is Jeannie Burlesworth. I'm chair of Secure Arkansas.
What I would like to offer into evidence today is I have a breakdown of these 1,768 students that has the fake Social Security number. And I have a lot of FOIAs from Dr. Purcell that I'd like to offer. And I would like to – I'll give it to you. Okay. And then I would like to read an FOIA that I have intercepted from Brandy Henkel.
Speaker 200
40:48
And this was to Sarah Weyer, a reporter. She said, Sarah, here is some more information for you regarding in-state tuition for those without U.S. citizenship. And she said, I've also attached the federal statute for you, Brandy. And then House Bill, she said, 1008, pre-filed for the 2011 legislative session by Representative Harrison Woods, is in line with Arkansas's interpretation of federal law, which addresses eligibility for higher education benefits based on citizenship and residency.
and Arkansas Department of Higher Education Director Jim Purcell, ADHE, monitors compliance with the federal law.
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
41:34
And one more thing that Brandy Hengel said here is of the 1,600 and 1,000,
Speaker 200
41:43
no, 168,595 students enrolled in Arkansas private and public institutions of higher learning this fall.
Ninety-eight percent had valid Social Security numbers, Purcell said. Some students prefer not to provide their Social Security number as their unique identifier. However, they must prove U.S. citizenship and Arkansas residency to receive in-state tuition. ADHE has required that the institutions to verify and ensure that 1,768 students have invalid Social Security numbers are not receiving benefits for which they qualify. But my point here, and I'm going to offer this, is that in her statement here regarding a pre-filed bill
for the 2011 legislative session, which is this one, addresses eligibility for higher education benefits based on citizenship and residency. Regarding Arkansas's interpretation of federal law, we would like to know, as the public, we would like to have it explained to us what federal law is being interpreted and how it supersedes 8 U.S.C. sections 1325, 1324A, A, 1324C, 1644, Title 19, USC 1459. USC is very specific in dealing with illegal aliens
and certainly benefits of any kind are not provided and they are against the law. And so that's why I think that our college chancellors should acquaint themselves with this law and look up on it because we've got, like I said, over 1,700 students in various colleges, and I have the breakdown here with funding Social Security numbers, and we, the people are very concerned about this, and we're also want to know who is funding these illegal aliens
because we feel that these are illegal alien students are stripping Arkansas children of their rightful opportunities. There's a lot of FOIAs that I have here that I could offer from Dr. Purcell and a lot of articles that I have in the past that's been written on this, but one specific article in May 2008 that was written by John Gambrill of the Associated Press, his news report said that illegal immigrants could receive in-state tuition at Arkansas's
two largest universities, sparked interest at one college to do the same, and criticism from another that schools could improperly boost their enrollment to receive more state funding. And it goes on to say that these emails were obtained by the Associated Press. Now, bear with me because I won't read the whole article, but it does go on to say the emails to the State Department of Higher Education from school administrators came from the governor's office, began asking herod questions about policies at the University of Arkansas in Fedville and the University of Central Arkansas in Conway.
Director Jim Purcell said a check of statewide database of student information found that 2,000 people enrolled at Arkansas colleges and universities attend classes under dummy Social Security numbers. Some of those students could be illegal immigrants, while others could be international students or legal U.S. residents who haven't registered with the Social Security Administration, he said. As long as we have had student ID, we could track. That was all that we had been doing at this point. all that they had been doing, Purcell said.
But with the concern about the illegal immigration rule, what we're going to try to do is identify them through a sort of like an error message. Purcell sent a letter last week warning schools not to offer illegal immigrants in-state tuition unless they wanted to give the same benefits to an out-of-state student. The department began polling the state's two- and four-year colleges and universities after they had to find out their admissions practices.
So, see, here we've got problems in our colleges and universities, and I've got all of this testimony from all these different chancellors right here, I mean, just tons of it, where they're trying to figure out what to follow, what to do. And we do all, I think Representative Klemmer brought up a good point because at the age 18 and a half, they're eligible to be deported. And the chancellors, I have evidence in this pile of documents that I have here that they literally said that they did not want to hire these students after they had graduated because they knew they couldn't.
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
46:58
It was against the law. So I won't, since you're wanting my testimony shortened, I won't offer the rest of this evidence in. But I ask that you vote yes
Speaker 204
47:10
on this bill. This is a very good, clean bill, and your constituents want your vote.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
47:16
Ms. Burrowsworth, I do have one question at least. Representative Hutchinson.
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
47:23
Thank you very much. I have met many of these students who are in this awful legal limbo. And they're smart, they're hardworking, they have to work a semester, save money, go to school a semester, go back work a semester.
They, because of their parents' decision to come here illegally, have been put in an awful situation. I would like to know, is it legal for foundations or non-profits to collect money and then make up the difference for those students between in-state tuition and out-of-state tuition? I mean, that is a legally way to solve this problem, isn't it? That's
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
48:04
what I think. I think that would be an awesome remedy myself.
Speaker 200
48:09
And I do want to go ahead and submit this into evidence on the breakdown of
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
48:14
colleges. We will share that with the committee. Okay. Do you have
copies that we need to make? No, you can take this. Did I say another hand? Representative
Speaker 210
48:26
Steele and Webb and then Hopper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I will be brief. I've been in the legislature a long time, but the first time serving on the education committee, and it's quite interesting. spent most
Speaker 211
48:39
of my time on public health, one of the things on public health, we always
could identify things by using consistent vocation, consistent vocabulary with things. But in this situation, it's kind of difficult to follow because I've heard these individuals who we are discussing and who are referred to in this bill under several different titles from immigrants to unlawful, unlawfully residents who are here, those without U.S. citizenship, illegal residents, unlawful residents,
then probably the worst one, illegal aliens. It's bad enough to be an alien, but to refer to them as an illegal alien, it's pretty awful. So I think if we can get some consistency with who we're identifying and what the terminology is, it certainly will help. But my question to Ms. Burrowsworth is very simple. You mentioned that presently we are denying Arkansas students an education.
I just would like for you to expound and explain
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
49:52
that statement you made. First of all, let me go ahead and address your terminology on illegal
Speaker 200
49:58
aliens because if you looked at this in a court of law, judicially that is the only way to term it there is no such
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
50:08
thing as undocumented they're immigrant because that's an oxymoron so illegal alien if you look this up under law and case law and federal law that is the terminology that's why we have to be clear on this
and that's why I use that term because that's the proper term in the courts So, you know, I want everyone to know that. And to say illegal immigrant, once again, that implies that they've immigrated here
Speaker 200
50:37
properly when they have not. So that's one reason why it's not to be disrespectful of anyone, but
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
50:45
that is the proper judicial term is illegal alien. And
Speaker 211
50:54
When they cross the border illegally. What if their parents are not lawfully documented citizens here and they have children? Do they become illegal aliens when
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
51:07
they're born? Unfortunately, I think we're going to have a big debate over the 14th Amendment because a lot
Speaker 200
51:13
of countries are rejecting the anchor baby status, and that's not why our 14th Amendment was adopted in the first place. So this is, you know, kind of off the subject of this bill, but I think we will get into that debate.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
51:33
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got three other representatives that have requested for questions to have Mrs. Webb. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
51:41
I guess this is a question of you. There are a number of issues that have been raised following up what Representative Carnine said. I know Mr. Broadway is here in the room, and are we going to have an opportunity to hear him address the issues that Ms. Burlesworth and some of the others have? I would certainly
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
51:57
hope so. We've got several people signed up, and I think we'll be able to hear him, I hope.
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
52:03
But you'd like to hear from him
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
52:09
before we take a
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
52:13
vote on this? I have Representative Hopper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is this. We've heard this number tossed out several times this morning of 1,768 students. My question is, have these indeed been identified as those who, for lack of a better word, have willfully submitted erroneous information,
or are we talking about once the thousands of students that we are attempting to educate in this state, The information on them is uploaded into the system, and they are kicked back as errors, i.e., is it a matter of just transposing some numbers, as we all know. When we're dealing with thousands and thousands of individuals here, I'd like to know if that
Speaker 218
53:02
1768, to truly identify the meaning of who those individuals are.
Speaker 60
53:07
I think Mrs. Webb had mentioned Mr. Broadway, and he
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
53:10
may be able to come to the table. and maybe help us with that since he is here in the building. Thank you. And I will ask him there in just
a second, but I also have a question from Representative Hutchinson. Did you have another question,
or did I have you on my list wrong? I was just
Speaker 91
53:30
going to ask the chair to make sure that we remain on the topic and not wander off into the wilderness. I understand. Thank you.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
53:37
Thank you for your help. Ms. Burroughsworth, I guess through your testimony, I appreciate you. I'm going to take it out of order here, but there have been some questions raised
about the Department of Higher Ed, and I think Mr. Broadway is in the building. Mr. Broadway, will you identify yourself with
the record and be available for questions?
Speaker 221
54:08
or comments? MR. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, we'll be glad to do that. I'm Shane Broadway, Deputy Director of the Arkansas Department of Higher Education. As was mentioned, Dr. Purcell is out of town, and I apologize to Representative Harris that he was unable to – he was traveling yesterday and was unable to reach him. I also have with me Janet Lawrence, one of our staff attorneys at the Department of Higher Education, and we're here to answer any questions that you may have and to clarify any information. Committee, do you have any questions?
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
54:44
We have some comments about, and I think Representative Hopper, you had asked a question about the numbers that have been given.
Speaker 221
54:56
Could you respond to that, please? Yes. As you see, well, actually, I don't think you have a copy of this document, but Ms. Burrowsworth did read from a document that was sent by our information officer in a reply to a reporter with the Democratic Gazette. And to Representative Harris's earlier point, this is not just one institution.
These are spread 1,700 students across all institutions in the state, and I just want to make sure we were clarified to Representative Harris for that. And Janet's going to – if I mess this up, Mr. Chairman, Janet's going to step in. I understand. Here's how we understand it. You have the memo prepared that was sent to the presidents and chancellors by Dr. Purcell. Each semester, the universities and colleges report back to the Department of Higher Education, and I'll read from this information that was quoted a minute ago.
This past fall, there were 168,595 students enrolled in Arkansas Public and Private Institutions that had a valid Social Security number. The institution is required by federal law to verify the status, either by Social Security number or by other means. Some students prefer not to provide
Speaker 226
56:08
the Social Security number. You and I do that a lot
Speaker 221
56:13
of times, so that I don't use my Social Security number as my unique identifier. I may use another method of notification that I am a citizen of this country.
So that is one of hundreds of reasons that you could end up having 1,700 students not fit the proper category of being a resident of the state or of the country. So there are many, many different reasons why that number would be 1,768. The university, though, is required to verify by those other means that they are a resident
of the United States, and that is required. We will not receive that updated data until they file their end-of-term report, which we will receive at the end of February, correct? MS. Correct. MR. We will receive that at the end of February. So by then, we should be able to know that they have resolved all of those 1,768 issues You want to add
Speaker 228
57:22
to that? And like you said, there's many reasons that those numbers could be the 1,700. It could be transposed numbers, someone just typed in the wrong number.
The student might have just a unique identifier because federal privacy laws allow them not to give a Social Security number at an institution. It could be it's an international student. I mean, there's a number of reasons that that could be 1,700 students over all of our institutions. I know
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
57:46
Mr. Broadway did, but we need you on record and your voice. Janet
Speaker 230
57:50
Lawrence, and I'm ADA Chiefs General Counselor.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
57:52
Okay. Let me ask you a question. Either one of you can respond. If we, when you get your numbers back and there are people attending, students attending,
that are not citizens of the state, what is the process? You
Speaker 228
58:12
want to go there? We verify with the institution that they're charging them
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
58:18
out of state tuition. Okay. Has that been the proper procedure for the last two years? Since the memo. Since the memo, yes. Since the memo. Yes, sir. All right. And I've heard, of course, you hear a lot of things in these hallways, but are there some institutions that had already,
students that had enrolled as a freshman, had been there a couple of years,
and they are still continuing not paying out of state because the university has said, you know, we
brought you in under this other, but we're not aware
Speaker 221
58:52
of any. You're not aware of any. There are, I believe, some institutions that do pay the out-of-state tuition with private funds, with foundation funds, which is already allowed, is my understanding. So if they're doing such, to our knowledge, that would be the way that would be being conducted currently.
We're not aware of anyone still waiving out of
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
59:16
state tuition. Okay. I have a question for Mr.
Representative James McLean
Unverified
59:21
McLean, I believe, and then Representative Hobbs. Okay, this is directed to Representative Harris and Senator Broadway. Either one of
you all can take a swing at this, But Representative Harris, you earlier indicated that 1,768 individuals, to your
knowledge, that was at one institution, a
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
59:41
particular institution? Senator Broadway is correct.
Justin Harris
Unverified
59:44
I just got my information from the email that went to the board members from Jim Purcell that says it has come to the attention of the Arkansas Department of Higher Education that some institutions may be offering in-state tuition to students without attempting to verify their status as being legally present in the United States. So,
Representative James McLean
Unverified
1:00:05
Senator Broadway is correct. So, we're all on the same page. Yes, sir. This $1,700 number is not at one institution. It's spread out across the state. Okay.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:00:14
That's correct. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mrs. Hobbs. And, too, I know we have some funny rules in here, but I would ask you if you have information for the table, for anyone on the table, wait until after the meeting or bring
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:00:34
it up here to Mr. Hudson. Ms. Hobbs, you're identified. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Do you happen to know how
many students we have attending Arkansas higher education institutions who are paying out-of-state tuition?
Speaker 221
1:00:45
Do you happen to have those numbers? We can get those for you. I don't know that I have that. You haven't? We're actually re-running that number based on some new data that we have right now. But it's – each institution has their varying and own out-of-state waiver policy. Some institutions waive it depending upon where they are, border counties. Some do other states. Some do only if
Speaker 243
1:01:10
you live in a residence hall or are on a meal plan. So it varies from institution to institution.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:01:16
I understand that. Do you have a ballpark figure of how many you believe might be paying out-of-state tuition? Being waived or paying out-of-state tuition? That are actually being charged and are paying the out-of-state tuition? We'll have to get
Speaker 221
1:01:30
that for you. I'm sorry, Representative Hobbs. Thank you. I've actually been looking at how many have
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:01:38
been waived more lately than have paid. Thank you. Committee, any other questions of these for Representative Maird?
Representative Duncan Baird
Unverified
1:01:48
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The column that says invalid Social Security number, would that include people who don't provide a Social Security number, or is it strictly numbers that are invalid? It
Speaker 228
1:02:00
could include those that, because of federal
Representative Mary P. "Prissy" Hickerson
Unverified
1:02:02
privacy laws or for whatever reason they don't want to give a Social Security number,
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:02:08
that could include those students. Okay. Thank you. any additional questions seeing not
Speaker 133
1:02:15
what Ms. Clever my question would be so
right at this time we have no we do not have a way of differentiating what is an alternate ID and what is an invalid social security number is that correct could we I mean you're saying it includes people who for privacy reasons do not want to use their social security number that's correct but we don't have a breakout out of that. I mean, that would be really, really helpful to us if we knew that piece of information. We
Speaker 250
1:02:43
had an alternate ID category. Because we're lumping them in with mistakes
Speaker 133
1:02:50
and potentially no Social Security numbers, so that number is not really very meaningful. If
Speaker 228
1:02:57
I can respond, this program runs simply Social Security numbers, and then when it kicks the 1,700 students, that's when we send back to each institution the number of students and those students, and then they verify if that's an alternate ID or what the reason it was kicked was. And that's the information we're going to get
Speaker 133
1:03:14
at the end of February? It will be in their end-of-term report. But we got this invalid Social Security number as of when?
After the 11th day. Okay, so this is a January 11
Speaker 221
1:03:27
number? No, it would be September, last fall. Okay, so this
Speaker 133
1:03:31
is a fall number. Fall number based on after the 11th day. Until the next year? At the end of semester. They
Speaker 221
1:03:38
file a report at the end of the fall semester. I certainly wouldn't
Speaker 133
1:03:42
want to put in more administrative burdens, but it would be interesting to know that. Representative Pierce.
Speaker 63
1:03:52
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So let my little old brain comprehend this just as best
Speaker 64
1:03:57
I can. This is 1,700, and so we don't know how many is illegal, and we don't know how many just gave the wrong – didn't give a Social Security card or – is that what we're saying? It is correct. So this 1,768, we don't
Speaker 86
1:04:16
know. Is that what both of y'all are saying down there? So the colleges don't know really what we're saying?
Speaker 221
1:04:24
They should know by now. That's data we will not receive until they file their end-term report. But that information should be clarified by now. Okay. by those institutions it has to be they have to go back and certify that each one of those are Residents they don't buy other IDs or whatever so right now we're just saying we have this number and we
Speaker 64
1:04:42
don't know How many is illegal, but we don't know how many just not giving a Social Security card, and we don't know is that right? That's correct, and some of them could be
Speaker 228
1:04:51
international students I mean there could be other reasons that they could be on that 1700 list other than just I didn't get my Social Security number or
I'm an undocumented student it could be international students it could be a typo it could be a number of reasons so so this seventeen hundred
Speaker 64
1:05:05
could go down to two hundred one hundred we don't know correct it could be zero and when are you telling me we're going to zero when you get they verified all
Speaker 221
1:05:16
those students then the number would go to if they verified their legal right residents and the number could be zero it could be seventeen hundred but right now we
Speaker 64
1:05:25
do not know that we do not have that
information at our department and we do not know when we're going to get this or there
Speaker 221
1:05:37
is a date after when do you say they start reporting after the 11th day of the spring semester which is depending on the institution probably this week or last week started so that information will be coming in that that it's not just this piece of data that we receive on the report so there's a lot of data that we have to go through and
Speaker 64
1:05:58
analyze including I'm just trying to to get a picture here, because when I came in here, I thought we had 1,767 people that
were this, but right now we're saying some of our kids may have opted out not to give their Social Security number, and we're counting them on this. That's correct. But they would still
Speaker 221
1:06:16
have to go back and verify. Right. But we haven't done that yet. It's been done. The report has not been sent to us. Okay. Thank you. We're in the process of receiving that information, I guess
Speaker 64
1:06:28
is what I'd say, Representative. All right. Thank you. MR. Thank you. I understand that
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:06:32
a little bit. Thank you. MR. Thank you, Representative Pierce. I have Co-Chair Roebuck and then I have Hutchinson and somebody else, I think.
Speaker 20
1:06:40
But anyway. MS. Thank you. Mr. Broadway, Ms. Lawrence, this question has to do with the memo from Jim Purcell in 2008. In that memo, he requested that all the admission forms at the institutions include the question of residency and U.S. citizenship and required a valid Social Security number or student visa number. And so when he sent this memo out in 2008, what follow-up was there to make sure that
all the institutions had complied with this request? This would be the data run that
Speaker 228
1:07:17
we do after the eleventh class day where they send in all the Social Security numbers of the students and we run it through a program to see which students get kicked out on that error. If it's an international student, their visa number obviously is not going to fall into a proper Social Security pattern, or if they didn't give a Social Security number, so they were assigned an alternate student ID, or whatever the reason, or if they were an undocumented
Representative Mary P. "Prissy" Hickerson
Unverified
1:07:42
student. And so that program was started the following fall, the fall of 2008.
Speaker 20
1:07:49
So is it, to your knowledge, have there been violations since that time by any state-supported institution in this state? Not to the best of my knowledge. Have you received any complaints at ADHE as the legal counsel from citizens or any other groups that specific institutions were violating this request and this law? I specifically have not.
And if you did receive such a complaint, what would be the procedure to deal with that complaint? We would do an
Representative Mary P. "Prissy" Hickerson
Unverified
1:08:22
investigation to see if the accusations within the complaint were accurate and true. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
1:08:37
Chair. Representative Hutchison. Thank you very much. Just to clear things up, we do ask the question, are you a legal resident of the United States?
Correct. Correct. If it was answered yes, but you discovered there was a fake Social Security number also given, what would happen then? It would be in violation of federal law. All right. So that would be a crime to fill out documents and answer in an illegal manner. Correct. All right. Thank you very much. Reverend McLean. Just one question
Representative James McLean
Unverified
1:09:17
for my clarification, you might have covered it, Senator Broadway.
Have we ever been sanctioned, to your
Speaker 272
1:09:23
knowledge, by the federal government for not complying with
Speaker 221
1:09:29
federal law? Not to our knowledge. Obviously, I don't know exactly how the process would work, but a university would be subject. If they violate federal law of any kind, a university could be subject to losing any federal
Speaker 245
1:09:44
aid. To my knowledge, no university or college has been sanctioned or lost federal
Representative James McLean
Unverified
1:09:50
aid. And to your knowledge, is there any current federal investigation that is underway at any state-supported schools that would have to do with this issue?
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:10:00
This issue, not to our knowledge. Thank you,
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
1:10:22
Senator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We've had some discussion today that obviously around this 1768 number and that we are waiting for the information that will hopefully resolve some of that come February.
But if I overlap my dates here of my documents, Dr. Purcell's memo was in May of 08. And we have finalized two academic years since then. And I'm assuming that this immediately went into effect, his memo, i.e., then that fall, again, this would have gone into effect. We have since completed the 2009 and 2010 academic years following this procedure, have
we not? That is correct. Okay. And can you speak then to the outcome of the numbers that you got following the fall semester of 2008 and 2009, and then the outcomes come the following February's, which would have been in 9 and 10 if I've got my numbers straight? We don't have the numbers with us. can get that four-year representative
Speaker 243
1:11:28
hopper but if there were violations they would have had to charge them out of state tuition they can still register them
Speaker 221
1:11:34
as a student in college but they would have had to go back and charge out of state tuition i think that would be very helpful to this
Speaker 275
1:11:43
committee because if there's obviously a trend there
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
1:11:46
what have you it would i think just that it would speak very highly to it d in indeed whether or not there is an issue here or there's There's not an issue here. I mean, obviously situations change, but we should have some data that sets some sort of a trend, should we not? If you're requesting, we'll provide. Thank you. And we'll try
Speaker 221
1:12:04
to, with this year's data, the best we can, try to get you a number on that as well. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
1:12:14
Representative Hutchison, do you have another question? No, sir, just proper time. Okay. Representative Carnine. I have a
very short question, and then I would like to ask
that debate be limited to 15 minutes on a side. That's the correct and proper motion when you have time. Let me ask the question if I may. And this, I think, is to the attorney looking at Representative Harris's bill.
Well, essentially what I'm asking is if this bill becomes law, does this and would it essentially put in place the rules currently in place by the Department of Higher Education? Because what it says is the Arkansas Higher Education Coordinating Board may promulgate rules necessary to implement this section. What I've heard you say, and again, what I've heard you say is that that is currently the
Speaker 71
1:13:20
policy of the Department of Education, higher
Speaker 228
1:13:28
education. It wouldn't implement any rules necessarily. We don't have board policy or rules in place. We follow the federal law. And how we do that is through this verification system on Social Security numbers. So it wouldn't create any new rules and we don't have any current rules other than how we conduct business of following the federal law within our office.
Speaker 221
1:13:53
The rule would be, the rule referenced in that memo representative would be the one adopted by the board in terms of the process for
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
1:14:02
notification to the department. But it is the current procedure of the Department of Higher Education, is that
correct? To verify. To verify? Yes. That, I think, does answer my question. Again, my motion is to limit debate for 15 minutes. That's
Speaker 37
1:14:20
a proper motion. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed?
No. Okay. The ayes have it.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:14:25
Okay. At this time, Mr. Broadway, thank you for your testimony in answering the questions for the committee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You may
be dismissed. At this time, the next person that's going to speak against this is Rosa Valquez. And if you would come to the end of the
table, please, and make sure Mike is on down there, and identify yourself with the record. Okay.
Speaker 3
1:14:54
Ms. Valquez, you don't have 15 minutes. I mean, the whole side, maybe somebody asked you,
Speaker 214
1:15:00
so be brief, be quick, and get your point across. but somebody else may want to come
Speaker 287
1:15:07
by something behind you. Is it on? Yes, thank you. My name is Rosa Velasquez, and I am the ESL paraprofessional at Wix High School in southwest Arkansas. I'm here to get you to vote no for this bill. Rosa, would you just slow down? I
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:15:22
know you're nervous, but slow down just a little bit so we can hear you a little better.
Speaker 287
1:15:27
Okay. Can everybody hear me? My name is Rosa Velazquez, and I am the ESL paraprofessional at Wix High School in southwest Arkansas, and that's just fancy for ESL aid. I have about 40 students that I tutor every day. There's about 20 that are undocumented, and Yanelle comes to my mind. She's brilliant. She has a 4.0. She has a 26 on her ACT. She wants to be a pediatrician. If you pass this bill, you will be, you say it's not denying, but her parents, her father works at the chicken plant,
and he doesn't make but $350 a week. Her mother cleans houses. They cannot afford out-of-state tuition. If you pass this bill, she will not be able to go to college. She wants to save lives. Yesterday, she said, Ms. Rosa, I want to serve this nation. I want to save these kids' lives. And if you pass this bill, you won't let her do that. You won't let her save your children's lives. So I ask you to vote no for this bill.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:16:32
Thank you. Thank you. Next, we have Mr. Anderson, I believe.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Excuse me, Mr. Anderson. We have to have a far. John, Mr. Hubbard, Representative Hubbard, would you come to the table and identify yourself with the record, please, and remind you to be
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:16:56
brief. Thank you Mr. Chairman, my name is John Hubbard, I'm State Representative of District 75 in Jonesboro and I'm going to be very brief because of our time constraints today. I'd like to say that my reason for being here today or in Little Rock as State Representative
from District 75 in Jonesboro and also in speaking on support of this bill is prevailing fear among a lot of people in my district that federal law is not being enforced in immigration, and a lot of other areas. Similar to the situation with Arizona, they saw the need that the federal law was not being enforced. They made a state law to try to encourage the federal law to be enforced, and I think that's a lot of the reason for this bill right here is to make sure that federal law
is being enforced. And I want to tell you, both the people here and my colleagues in the House of Representatives, I was sent here from the people of District 75 for specific reasons. And I'm bringing a message from those people. I'm representing their voice in Little Rock. And that's my purpose for being here today,
Speaker 289
1:18:07
and I thank you for your time. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:18:12
you, sir. Next we have Joel Anderson, I believe, to speak against the bill.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Madam Co-Chair,
Speaker 292
1:18:27
I'm Joel Anderson, Chancellor of the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. You may proceed. Thank you. I would request that you vote against this bill, and I will just try to make summary comments on it. First, if it cures a problem, it's a problem that's already cured. It's a bill that would be only symbolic in effect.
That effect would not be negligible because it would further brand some people as other as they continue to live in our state. I think that it simply has the state going in the wrong direction. I'm glad that you're going to seek clarification of the 1,700 figure. That just does not compute to me. And on the basis of what I heard today, my prediction would be we'll find that most of those 1,700 are international students. I mean, we've got like 300 international students at my institution, and I assume that they don't have Social Security numbers,
and so they probably are a part of that number. But in any event, I think you're right to seek clarification of it. This is, of course, nationally an emotional issue. It's an emotional issue in the state, and I sometimes wish that just a handful of people on both sides could declare timeout and then spend some time, first of all, agreeing on the facts so that we all were speaking from the same page on this. The final thing that I would offer, and I'd be glad to answer institution questions
about how we deal with these issues at my institution, but I think I may be able to be helpful on the question that Representative Klemmer has asked, and that is if someone gets a four-year degree, then what? What have we gained? And I think that this is the answer in the nine states, I think the figure was nine, that already have legislation that encourages children of undocumented parents, people who, like me, I mean, I grew up in Jackson County, Arkansas, as the governor did, and not by any choice of my own.
You know, I was just there because of my parents' choice, and so it is with a number of folks in this state. But in the states, and as it would have been provided by the Federal Dream Act, and I very much hope that one of these days that legislation is passed, it puts these students on a path at the end of which they are on the road to citizenship. I think you would find in every one of those nine states that there is a requirement that if a child in an undocumented family is going to enroll at in-state rate,
they have to sign and begin to take the steps to achieve citizenship at the end of that path. In the Federal Dream Act, you could either get citizenship by going to college or you could get it by going into the military. I think a very intelligent, enlightened kind of response to it. But we need to be doing things that produce more people with college degrees. One of the reasons we have a number of the failures that we do is we have students that aren't motivated enough.
That's a problem across this state. We're talking here about students who would like to go to college, but when the tuition rate is three-plus times what they would pay as in-state students, that's prohibitive for them, as it would be for, you know, a ton of Arkansas students as well. Mr. Chairman, I'll stop with
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:21:51
that and be glad to respond to questions. Committee questions, anyone? Representative Hutchinson,
Speaker 249
1:21:57
and then Representative Steele. Thank you for coming. Does the U of A have
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
1:22:02
or do you know of any foundation or charity or organization
that is willing to make up the difference for these students between the in-state
Speaker 292
1:22:12
and the out-of-state tuition? Not at my institution, and I think that would help a few people. I don't think that's an answer that would be feasible. I just don't think you're going to get dollars in the amount that would be necessary to make a difference. We have a scholarship program with LULAC, one of the organizations in the state,
where they provide some money, but it's for a very limited number of
Speaker 210
1:22:45
scholarships each year. Representative Steele. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chancellor, do
Speaker 211
1:22:49
you feel that a higher education would actually help these students with the process of obtaining citizenship? Yes. And have you encountered very many students or any students at all who are coming to your institution with the objection of getting an education
and then leaving the United States for some reason or another? No. Thank
Speaker 210
1:23:14
you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Chancellor, for coming. Mr.
Speaker 292
1:23:20
Chairman, if I could just make this additional observation, I think that Representative Steele raises a very important point there. If we're going to be realistic in looking at the situation we have in Arkansas as well as in other states, the big majority of these young people that we're talking about that
are affected by this prohibition, this federal prohibition, they are people that are going to be living in this state 10 years and 25 and 40 years from now, and it would be in our best interest, leaving aside what it does for them, it would be in our best interest to enable them to become much more productive citizens, paying more taxes, generally being more productive and versatile members of our society. Thank you,
Speaker 214
1:24:06
sir. One more question. Representative Klemmer.
Speaker 250
1:24:10
I love asking questions straight to my
Speaker 92
1:24:16
boss. The relationship's not clear here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
Speaker 133
1:24:21
for that. Thank you for that. I really wish that we had a better
solution to this, and I appreciate you coming and sharing your perspective. what kinds of positions will our students potentially my students for all i know in my
classroom what jobs are they eligible to have after they have a degree from any of our state institutions well i
Speaker 92
1:24:53
think that is a good question and again
Speaker 292
1:24:57
i don't think that this particular piece of legislation affects that issue one way or another, because if you pass it, the federal law is still there. They are not, I can assure you, we are doing at my institution a very tight job of screening applicants for admission, and if we've had anybody slip through the crack, I'll bet
you, you couldn't, you wouldn't take more than the fingers on one hand, and I'm not sure it would take any fingers on that hand. But this law won't change the fact that now they can't go at in-state rate. Now, if we went in a different direction, we would do something similar to the construct of the Federal Dream Act, where we would put the opportunity for students who aren't documented to start down this path as a way of getting citizenship.
And once in some kind of path like that, they become legally much more hireable from the standpoint of employees. And, again, I think we can look at what's happened in the other nine states and
Speaker 133
1:26:06
get some guidance. Just a quick follow-up. I really appreciate you being able to tell us what's on
the ground and really happening. but are there any other forms of aid available to an undocumented or illegal alien
whatever we choose to call them are there any other forms of aid available to them LULAC scholarships I mean we're not trying to admit them I understand but assuming someone did get in they can't get Pell Grant I mean what is the realistic chance that someone can attend college if they're illegal,
that they could afford to pay even in-state tuition, which is not cheap? That's not a very
Speaker 292
1:26:53
good question. And I think I understand it, and I would answer it this way,
that if we made what I think would be the good choice for the state and we said we're going to go in the other direction, We're going to recognize that, you know, these are the most precious capital that we have within the state. They're human beings, and they're folks we need to have supporting our Social Security system and other things one of these times. We would find a way to open the doors to them so that they could get an education. And once in that kind of path, then they, I mean, they work.
They find ways to find the money to pay the tuition. They pay it themselves. I am not aware of it at my institution other than the LULAC scholarships. To my knowledge, there are no other scholarships that would be available. And those are for students that are legally admitted. They're not for the illegals that don't get in. Representative Hobbs.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:27:54
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Do you know how many students you have attending UALR who are paying out-of-state tuition who have residency in other states in the United States?
Speaker 292
1:28:04
I heard that question earlier, and no, but in the case of my institution, it will be a very small number. It will probably – I'm guessing it's in the hundreds, and that's out of 13,000. So it's a small number. I think you'll find other institutions, border institutions, will have a much different and a much higher figure than that. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank
Speaker 278
1:28:26
you. Seeing no more – one more question. Representative Baird. Thank
Representative Duncan Baird
Unverified
1:28:32
you, Mr. Chairman. And you said that if we could find a way to make a good choice for the state
to go in the other direction, to find a way to open the doors, that would be something that you would like to see? Yes. And you believe that this would make it more difficult to do that? Yes. Is that basically what you're
Speaker 20
1:28:54
saying? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Representative Roebuck. Yes. Dr. Anderson, you talked about the other states, and I wanted to clarify those laws in those other states permit the students to become eligible for in-state tuition, but there are requirements. And as I look here to see, they have to graduate from state high schools.
They have to seek legal immigration status in the states. That's not true in New Mexico. They do not have to. They have to have two to three years of residency in the state. They have to apply to a state college or a university. And they have to sign that affidavit that they will seek legal immigration. So those states have dealt with this in a way that you are suggesting would be helpful if we dealt with it in that way as well. That's correct, Representative Roebuck.
Speaker 190
1:29:40
Thank you. Any other questions, committee? Thank you, Dr. Anderson. Thank you.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:29:49
Two minutes. Okay. We have no one signed up to speak for the bill. We have some signed up to speak against. And the next, we have two minutes and 18 seconds left against, and the next person is Fernando Garcia. If he
would like to come to the end of the table. Identify yourself, please.
Fernando Garcia
Unverified
1:30:12
Thank you, Chairman. My name is Fernando Garcia, and I'm a member of the
Speaker 301
1:30:21
Natural Dreamers and the Community Organizer. I would like to answer some questions that were asked earlier in regards to immigrants not paying taxes. There is an individual taxpayer identification number issued by the IRS and I have some friends who have the ITIN cards who do contribute taxes and file taxes every single year.
And they've been filing those taxes and reporting those taxes since they were here. So I would just like to clarify that myth. Now, the process to get, there was also brought up why don't undocumented immigrants just go and fall for citizenship. It does take a while. And one of the first steps would be to leave the country. And since they entered without documents, they would be barred from entering the country legally for 10 years.
Now, the state has invested in these students. I'm also a student at the University of Arkansas. I wasn't a documented immigrant. I was very, very, very lucky to get my documents. Now I'm a citizen, but I was just very, very lucky because my dad qualified for the amnesty passed by President Reagan. So I was in a very lucky situation. Now, I don't think it's in the interest of the state
to not allow students to go to higher education after the state already invested in their primary education, K-12. So are we just going to cut the dreams off from students there? There was an issue brought up about in-state tuition for international students. I'm not against it. I'd like to have higher education accessible to everybody, but are the international students
likely to stay in the country, or are we educating the competition? Now, students who have grown up here only know this country. I know I came here at five years old, and I can travel to my home country. I do not know how to get around there. And that's an issue that many of these students are saying, so I'll be going to just cut it. Mr. Garcia, I hate
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:32:42
to interrupt you, but the 15 minutes is up. I appreciate you coming. I appreciate your comments.
Speaker 303
1:32:47
I would just like to ask everybody to
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:32:52
vote no. Committee, I have a motion due pass. Representative Hutchinson, Representative Pierce,
Speaker 64
1:33:01
question? Yes, I'd like to make a motion, substitute motion. Substitute motion. Yes. As is a proper motion. Mr. Chair, since we haven't got all the information on this thing, and we have this 1,767 people that's on these papers we've got, and the university cannot seem to get us the numbers
we need to verify this stuff, and it kind of aggravates me. I'm like somebody, the person that said it just across my mind, great. I know I'm just trying to use the word I want to use on this thing Because I'm kind of aggravated at the university They had this long I didn't know they had since 2008 to get this information for us And it just kind of aggravates me But I'd like to have better information I don't want to jump to conclusions that this 1,768 people are the ones that we're doing this for And it comes out that we're not
But I'd like to make a motion right this time To lay it on the table And get more information on
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:34:12
this thing That is a proper motion. Okay. We have any discussion on that motion? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Like sign? It's adopted. It's adopted and the bill will be laid on the table. okay we have one other bill on the agenda today house bill 1099
and i think we'll defer that bill until next week committee thank you thank you for your attendance and thank you for your patience
Agenda
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
Justin Harris
Unverified
Speaker 5
Speaker 20
Speaker 26
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
Speaker 25
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
Speaker 40
Speaker 42
Speaker 46
Speaker 60
Speaker 64
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified
Speaker 69
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
Speaker 82
Speaker 63
Speaker 86
Speaker 98
Representative James McLean
Unverified
Speaker 111
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
Speaker 37
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
Speaker 128
Speaker 132
Speaker 133
Speaker 144
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
Speaker 30
Speaker 166
Speaker 168
Speaker 175
Rich Huddleston
Unverified
Speaker 177
Speaker 138
Speaker 179
Speaker 178
Speaker 181
Speaker 125
Speaker 189
Speaker 190
Speaker 191
Representative Jane English
Unverified
Jeannie Burlesworth
Unverified
Speaker 200
Speaker 204
Speaker 210
Speaker 211
Speaker 213
Speaker 218
Speaker 91
Speaker 221
Speaker 226
Speaker 228
Speaker 230
Speaker 243
Representative Duncan Baird
Unverified
Representative Mary P. "Prissy" Hickerson
Unverified
Speaker 250
Speaker 272
Speaker 245
Speaker 275
Speaker 71
Speaker 3
Speaker 214
Speaker 287
John Hubbard
Unverified
Speaker 289
Speaker 292
Speaker 249
Speaker 92
Speaker 278
Fernando Garcia
Unverified
Speaker 301
Speaker 303