Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Taking your seats and if you're a member of the audience and you intend to speak on any of the items that are on the agenda today there should be sign in sheets right around the table straight out front of me please make sure that your name is on the sign in sheet if you would so that when we get to the subject matter you're interested in we can have you we can have you come up and give you opportunity to speak co chair representative general berry is still recovering from covered and glad to have representative raise by shirt day any words representative. Nope I look at four dollars good productive meeting all right. Members before we get into the items on the agenda would like to make just encourage make sure you look at your email when we had to poke county casino issue on back several months ago there was a report that was spots come out that report has been mailed to you by college I just want to bring that to your attention based on the recommendations of those at rash to investigate it there's no further activity that they feel is warranted on that subject matter unless a member the committee makes a request that will consider that we've taken care of our business on that any questions. All right with that we're going to the agenda and like to ask for consideration to approve the august twenty ninth meeting minutes of the meeting could get a motion on their plea second. You got a motion second on favor ci and imposed all right with that next on the item is a discussion of the arkansas library association carol coffee president of the arkansas library association and call you correct me if i'm wrong but the response when we asked them to attend today was that they respectfully declined to attend that correct colleague or would you speak to that just to verify that yes I know that is correct I received email from carol coffee library association stating that they respectfully declined to attend the JPR meaning this afternoon. So their solvent. Thank mister chair yes as one that requested that they attend and does to let the committee know that they want to be independent that the library association wants to be independent of the state and decline all funding of state dollars that's fine with me that's a decision that they can make a the question I really had was about the the state affiliation with the american library association that they have many things on their list of resolutions that they passed including social justice second amendment abortion white supremacy CRT they're director has said there that she is at a vowed marxist and she has committed committed to wielding collective power for a better world and that's their mission and stated by their director and the state library association is a affiliated closely with the american library association many of our member county and city libraries are closely affiliated and actually adopt the policy the american library association and that was the original intent of having them here i'm really disappointed they refuse to show up given that they are supported by the state and it seems based upon their statement that they feel like they're library board their accountable to their library board but not accountable to this body and add don't know how one can be respectful in any way when saying they are declined to appear before this body thank you mister chair johnson thank you mister chairman now be brief first of all I appreciate you allow me to participate in the hearing since I have not a member of the committee i'd like to go just a little bit further than number senator solomon are. Is my understanding that this committee has subpoena power does it not yet and so it if. And again if this were an independent group and get any public funding and all that certainly would. They could take their fifth amendment right or whatever they want to do with fact that this is a here. Many of them if not all of them receive public phones I would respectfully ask since they're being respectful to that they reconsider this and though perhaps not be have to be subpoenaed and put under earth to show up so get not remember the committee grateful for you allowing me to participate but i'm just not real happy about any publicly funded agency thumbing their nose at the general assembly so thank you mister thank you sir solvent. Thank you mister chair and I will be the proper time be withholding funding. When the budget hearing starts putting all of their funding on hold until they appear before this committee are the budget committee thank you and i'll confirm with the co chairs regarding sending them a little stronger request to be before the committee. All right no other questions on that on when we want to d we're going to have a discussion about diversity equity and inclusion policies origin in effect i'd like to invite john schweppy director the policy and governmental affairs from the american principles project to come to the table if you would place her. It is not my intent today have. Conferred with my coach here that will not be putting anybody under else today this on this item it is a for topic of discussion from it has been brought up in another committee it was always the intent for us to have some discussion and here about the subject matter and so we've asked mr schweppy and fun mispronounced in your name straight me out and to have a discussion about this someone recognized him for some comments on this membership will hold a comment or will hold the questions to the end of the presentation and whether you remember not you will be recognized to ask any questions give any input that you would like to give me deferred going to members first and then to non members but everybody will have the opportunity to make comments for questions because this is a for a purpose of putting some information out there just you have a better understanding on the subject matter and with that sure you are recognized if you would please your name entitled for the record thank you senator it's an honor to be here my name is john swappy are you did get it right i'm the policy director at american principles project of virginia based organization that advocates for a families i'm here today to talk about diversity equity and inclusion and what that actually entails racial discrimination is wrong in all of its forms because we are hearted by passed and justices like slavery and jim crow opposing racial discrimination is always at the four front of the american conscience not only is it morally wrong to discriminate on the basis of race but it breeds all sorts of problems in society animosity resentment feelings of disinfranchisement. In ultimately disillusionment desperation and despair it divides us into groups and pits us against one another it provides opportunities for some while cheating others. It contradicts the aspirational american principle of equality that thomas jefferson wrote about in the declaration of independence that all men are created equal. At its core and our history teachers as this racial discrimination especially of the systemic variety poses and existential threat to the american experiment itself now most americans agree that racial discrimination has no place in our society. But today nearly every institution across society is in fact engaging and discrimination and typically racial discrimination under a regime called diversity equity and inclusion often referred to asdi. So what is the e I will like every distorbian idea the death regime sells itself by manipulating language who could argue with diversity who would oppose inclusion. But the truth is dei is a political philosophy really more of an ideology that is predicated on explicit racial and sexual stereotyping demonization and discrimination. By diversity advocates of d I mean the view that every person is not a unique individual with unique experiences but actually just a representation of a larger racial or sexual class nobody is a person with his or her own thoughts experiences and qualities instead here she is a token of his or her gender or self profess gender or sexual proclivities by diversity devocates mean that they are primarily concerned with the relative representation and power as they see it of these groups rather than the experiences of any individual the equity part of the eye is about equally about comes it's about pursuing the kinds of quotas and proportions believe necessary to fix perceived racial or sexual disparities this results in explicit discrimination in hiring promotion and various other opportunities based primarily if not exclusively on an individual's race sex or sexual preferences if the best applicant for the job happens to be in asian american companies might check first to see whether they employ too many asian americans already if the overall demographics of the company don't come out in a way that the d I regime prefers that is if there's too many epingelicals are white people or we have you the situation is considered defacto unjust and must be rectified one way or the other. And I was saying I actually don't mean this as a joke by there is a cheat code built into the modern d I understanding if you're a wealthy white mail you're not likely to benefit from any sort of affirmative action program. That fundamentally changes if you decide to identify as a woman because your transgender identity and the DEI regime sympathy for that particular identity supersedes any ratio or sexual privilege experienced before the last part of the dei acronym is inclusivity which seems benign enough until you learn what it functionally entails inclusivity as the extensive system of censorship required to pop up the entire DEI regime. Fostering an inclusive environment does not mean requiring basic decency civility or respect it means punishing comments or attitudes that are offensive to the regimes prevailing attitudes. So if you believe for example. As many do that marriage is between a man and a woman or that there are only two genders or that gender is not something you choose for yourself you'll be fostering an uninclusive environment and can be rightly punished for it the ddi ideologies list of crimes against increasing our extensive if a co worker is offended by your comment you can be accused of having triggered him or her if you ask a question about a religious or cultural custom that could be a micro aggression. If you eat tackles on since a mile well that that might be cultural appropriation and don't even think about using the wrong pronounce this anti freespeech culture was once viewed as the exclusive domain of woke students on university campuses maybe ten years ago now those same walk students are running hire departments at fortune five hundred companies and serving as bureau bureaucrats and federal and state agencies inclusivity is in the eye of the beholder and if you're on the wrong side of inclusive you are discriminated against and is viewed by the d I regime is justified. This obviously creates a culture of intimidation and it has a showing effect on speech. Ebramex candy one of the most influential intellectuals pushing the d I movement wrote a revealing passage in his book how to be an anti racist about anti racism. Quote the only remedy to racist discrimination is anti racist discrimination the only remedy to pass discrimination as present discrimination and the only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination. But discrimination is illegal. And all of this is obviously illegal racial discrimination is banned under the civil rights act it's banned under the fourteenth amendment equal protection clause. But the perceived righteous and benay names of de I have allowed this ideology to grow and establish itself within our institutions and with a few exceptions that is rained supreme without interference. Now that changed recently at the supreme court believe it was june twenty ninth of this year students for fair admissions incorporated versus president and fellows of harvard college and also students for fair admissions versus university of north carolina the supreme court held that the university's consideration of race and admission systems however well intentioned and implemented in good faith. Violated the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment and title six of the super rates act of nineteen sixty four. The american people agree with the supreme court according to a cbs news survey conducted earlier this year seventy percent of americans thought that colleges should not be allowed to consider race as a factor in college emissions. As I stated earlier die has taken a foot hold in nearly every institution across society. Corporate board rooms HR department higher education came through twelve squares batteries and steep your occurses large and small non profit organizations even some state or local based organizations at our chapters of larger national organizations. And while this is in many cases clearly in violation of the law it continues to spite court rulings or just stipulations from people like me about its legality die as an ideology and a popular one among powerful people. But even beyond its legality d I appears to be having a negligible effect or possible even a negative one on solving animosities between racial groups researchers at harvard and televise university studied thirty years of diversity training data for more than eight hundred US companies and concluded that mandatory diversity training programs had practically no fact unemployee attitudes. And in some cases actually activated bias and feelings of racial hostility. While many organizations continue to challenge these dei policies and court my organization american principles project has focused more on a policy strategy and advocated for congress and for state governments to use the power of the purse the limit funding to the government's various d I bureaucracies. This is certainly seen support in the US house of representatives which once upon a time actually did business in washington dc but earlier this year the house actually included language in the national defense authorization act and several other appropriations bills are preventing funding from going to di offices and government. We believe this is the best back forward government should not be picking winners or losers based on race and neither should private institutions you know we shouldn't be subsidizing private institutions that embrace racial discrimination instead we should be treating everyone equally under the law with the god given human dignity each person deserves. Thank you and i'm happy to answer any questions that you might have to the best my ability. I'm sure I would couple them are going to members cause boards like nap so. With regards how the supreme court decision affected the conversation and you would you drill down a little bit deeper as far as. Where it was before the ruling. Maybe an illustration or an example and where it is after the ruling what I think the courts have been pretty consistent on affirmative action for a while this reaffirmed that that commitment but this was related specifically to admissions in in higher education and it made a pretty explicit that you know when all things are equal if races the factor that's determining whether you bring somebody and or not you know that that that is a violation of the super rights active violation of the fourteenth amendment you can't do it you know you can there's lots of different considerations you can have for admitting people to colleges uh but the supreme court came down pretty hard on saying race cannot be one of them. The yeah. You mentioned about ditaking a foot hole in state agencies i've assumed their other entities. That it has taken a food hold would you talk about your community where you see that it has or the institutions or are they all are the old government entities or their chair will nonprofit groups are can you expand on that all of it yeah well the the thing about the is it obviously has taken hold in government agencies where that ideology is prevalent you have officers of di not only in bureaucracies but also in the military but what we've seen also is is a push to have it in every corporate entity across the country you know investment large investment firms like blackrock state street you are they've they've pushed esg investing which really requires these corporations to adopt die programs not just training but also in hiring and and promotion and then of course you know this this trickles down to nonprofits as well where you know this has been a emphasis for nonprofits for a while not just on the racial side but certainly on the sexual side you see you know the human rights campaign which is a prominent lgbt group national group they have their equality index and every corporation across the country is trying to get the highest score they can nonprofits do the same thing and so you know it's prevalent uh in a lot of places and again you know just boiling it down this is an ideology that is in direct violation of the lot the idea is to you know the equity aspect is to try to address all these racial disparities or sexual disparities or what have you buy choosing to hire more of one group and less of another promote more of one group or less of another on the basis of their race around their sex and that is a clear violation of of the separate act. Got one more than will go to the members. So you know in the case of an institution or maybe any entity at all that would like to be able to have individuals. Maybe attend to college. Go into a medical field what are the case may be but then in areas that are underserved or areas that may be by federal definition or medically underserved for example. The bounce between and and some of our universities are dropping their die. Officers altogether. How do you how do your rationalize or how do you how do you see the balance being stricken given the fact you've worked on this at a national level what are you seen in other states or what do you see as to how that issues being addressed that if you have underserved areas you have areas that are designated by the federal government's medically underserved or some other status they ability to recruit but yet people return it to be able to do work with without the presence of the eye can you talk about how that's been handled at a national level sure so there's obviously a compelling state interest in addressing poverty and helping alleviate concerns of folks who you know when you sand or served I assume were we're speaking of people of lower income that is absolutely constitutional legal what have you I mean we've been doing that for a while and and should continue to do so by when it comes down to a explicit discrimination on the basis of race or sex or even an implicit discrimination on the basis of race or sex that that is in violation of the. Okay we'll take it in the order of members then now members first fall which can be represented springer than representative bentley and then it's going to be representative clowning so for slower representative springer. Good afternoon thank you mister chair welcome to arkansas you're from virginia i'm trying to understand the mission of your organization and as I look on your website it says there. Your mission is about the family the family is america's most important institution but it is also the only institution without an effective political got action community so i'm trying to understand how dent mission tas into what I have understood you to say there you got you're also promoted promoting limiting funding to institutions who are receiving federal funds with respect to their death program so i'm trying to understand how those two met your to me they're just totally different and sold for you to be here today talking about um that promoting the problems versus but son your website can so can you explain to me how those missed together sure thank you representative so you know strong families create strong communities which create a stronger country you know we bill ourselves as the enery for the families we really want to advocate for the interests of families and one of those interests is making sure that there's not racial discrimination when you have racial discrimination it sucks people back and so we see this as a critical part of our mission we've opposed you know critical race theory we've opposed to eight you know we obviously cover a lot of things I also you know we've done work on big tech as well which I you might have to stretch a little bit to fit the family but it is important to us so bad but just let you know this is something that a PP s been work out for several years. One follow up and i'll be finished or you're good thank you so as I look here too you talk about you know I hear what you said you talk about race discrimination I see no so can you point me to on your website for you saying that you all of a post racial discrimination and I appreciate that too because i'm a police to a rational discrimination is where some horror on your in your mission statement do you talk about being a pose to racial discrimination and even sex discrimination and discrimination period as you indicated that your organization deals I can't seem to locate anything that you specifically go into the up about their sure so you know I think we have language on our website about the god giving human dignity that every person is afforded and so when you talk about him in dignity we believe that all people are created equal regardless of race and loss of sex so they all should be afforded that dignity you know I don't know if the words racial discrimination appear on our website but like you know the vast majority of americans we oppose it uh I think that's a pretty good thing. Thank you. Representative bentley. Thank you chairman thank you mister schwebby for being here today as state legislature don't make sure that our state government are state institutions are helping those that are partisan need this early key point do you think that de negates that negates meeting us folks that are really most in these. When we were implemented those policies instead of doing things based on either way of doing based on a certain race or whatever or sexual I do I think thank you I do representative I think you know ultimately when we're focused on need we should be focusing on income and access on all these different things and race and sexual identity and all these things are just ways to pick frankly poor people against each other you know this is something that II think we've really pushed against I think a lot of the members in the stream republican or democratic like think is a bad thing you know we want a united we want to help out the impoverished think that's an important mission of state government and even federal government to a degree and so that's been a priority for us. One quick follow up chairman so since you're here a national policy director can you give us any inside of that things that we can do on the state level to help negate that what could we do here in a policy ideas you could give us what you're here today do we help that will certainly you know you can help by enforcing the law and obviously there's been you know in our opinion a flonting of civil rights law via these dei programs because you know their wall intentioned and so I think people give them a pass but the reality is that racial discrimination is is illegal and so ultimately I think uh defunding these ti programs is the best course of action for states that's certainly been you know what we've pushed at the federal level and II think that that should be where we go we want to address people are based on need on you know economics on all these different things but once you start breaking things down into race you know this is what we as a country really need to move past and and frankly if we want to have a a united country where we're not petting groups against each other it's important that we do that. The. The. Representative. Cloning you mr chair over here mister although it yep thank you for coming here today and talking with us I guess my first question is something you just said was that it's time that we moved past it everything that you say sounds very nice and theory right that that these any program that preferences one group based on race over another is discrimination that to mean discounts two hundred years of american history can you speak a little bit to why you think that the programs are discriminatory rather than getting us to a place that you quality that doesn't currently exist in other words do you think that system agrees them against people of color still exists in america so to take answer your question I think every individual deserves equal opportunity and under under the law and ultimately when you try to address and think of things in these groups or think of things through historical wrongs which are clearly historically wrong you you lose sight of that and so ultimately if you're discriminating against and will take the the supreme court case you know if you're discriminating against asian students that you know had merit and deserved to go to push somebody just on the basis of their race and not merit II think that does more harm than good towards you know achieving not only getting rid of these disparities but you know achieving a unified country where you know I think we all hope for one day where racism isn't a problem in this country unfortunately you know the the reality is that we continue to have policies like this that exacerbated and and continue to make an issue. So so if this policy exacerbates if this policy is something that you think further is racial and equality i'm surely you must the other other policies across the country they do the same thing to the detriment of people of color so you mentioned that combating racial discrimination was a foundational tenant of your organization can you give me an example of something that you all have combated sort of as the champion of people of color as as folk are you know seeing that racial discrimination. Impacts them rather than white americans. Well see the the thing is when we're focused on helping people we look at people who are need we don't look at people based on the color of their scan and so that will in often help black folks at all often help white folks but you know some of the policies we've advocated you know we're kind of a more populous organization so we look at ways to improve the purchasing power of working families you know that's something that's going to affect white folks and black folks are alike so we you know just as a how we view these things we're not really looking at race in that way we think that racial discrimination began to racial discrimination out you run can use in many ways the father of the the godfather if the dei movement you know is talking openly about how we need discrimination to write these wrongs and and I think we just certainly reject that premise I think discrimination is always wrong no matter why and we should seek to to rectify these disparities by looking at other other issues like economic status family status you know broken families are obviously the most severe detriment towards people advancing and and achieving higher better outcomes so that's that's how we look at it and I think it's it's where a lot of americans are because again racial discrimination is is found on buyer by most americans or more followed mr children quick not thank you discussion thank you thank you I appreciate that answer I think the reason that I ask specifically about white americans is because we're in your kind of introduction you mentioned wealthy white men being at a bit the biggest disadvantage under these program so that's why I brought it up I guess when I look at a lot of what you've said when I hear a lot of what you said you're quoting these authors that you know have national presences you're talking about investment firms like black rug from the prospective of an arkansas law maker I know that that you're not from here but you may have seen in the new york you mentioned a lot of buzzwords in your intro you mentioned being cancelled you mentioned gender identity you mentioned dystopian regimes. One of the things that happened last week in our state with it the governor signed an executive order and been in the use of any kind of. Non binary language to talk about pregnant people so she beating so you know we only acknowledge pregnant women not pregnant people okay that's the exact kind of thing that you that you warned us against rate the thing that the governor signed an executive order last week to theoretically fixed I guess my question to you is where do you see the problems in arkansas I hear you talk about black rock I hear you talk about ebram can be rate I hear talk about all of these are the big national figures where you see the problems in arkansas where do you think our biggest focus should be as arkansas lawmakers where is the danger as far as the eisence is involved in our state that it thanks yeah well II can't speak for the governor by what I can tell you is that you know i've actually been to the the dalta you know III think the number one priority for are our architect folks from arkansas and it should be poverty and and creating economic the ability for people to to grow and and provide for the families and that's that's a big priority for us that cross the country certainly arkansas state that that could benefit from those policies too but again I just think when you when you separate things into race you really distract from the idea of i've alleviated poverty of of creating opportunities for folks so they can socially advance and so uh you know that our position is that racial discrimination is always wrong and it's always going to do more harm than good. Senator solvent. Thank you for check i'm over here back to assess so what kind of what i've heard you say is that our decision should be based on merit and need and then wave to introducing other factors and a decision making process that would appear from right now to go against the resent supreme court decision would that be accurate yeah that that would be not only legally accurate but I would also positive it's morally accurate yeah and um. So we take an oat as a legislator to uphold the constitution. Which says it and the declaration those documents kind of go hand in hand one led to the other and they've one set out our principles to separate the other one said what that means so in the constitution says that we're all created equal promotes out philosophy that raw created equal so well in your opinion will further discrimination ever supply it or over power other discrimination so we are currently we'd discriminate against some things that some would propose so if we change and discriminate against other people is that the cure no III think kendy's thesis on this that you need discrimination to rectify past discrimination is is completely wrong yeah I think justice roberts at one time said that further discrimination will never solve problems of current discrimination would you believe that act and accurate statement in general and would you agree that are when when the representative asked what is the most important thing in arkansas and we take an oath to uphold the constitution would that be the most important thing yes thank you thank you mister chair can represent hutchins. Thank you mr chair and thank you mister swappy for being here in your presentation that I heard you speaking about use of respace factors and lot of different contacts work education in in a site is a whole but am troubled by the fact that it sounded as though what you were doing is talking about three separate things and talk about discrimination under title seven you are talking about DEI programs which are are corporate. Programs that started in board rooms and you're talking about affirmative action programs but you seem to be using the terms interchangeably can you tell me what in your mind is the difference between those three different terms sure and I think part of the reason for that is because we see them as sourced all from the same ideology affirmative action is the mechanism by which the the goals of d I are achieved you know but but ultimately whether you call the ire critical race theory or you know affirmative action talking about the actual mechanism these things are all sourced from the same idea which is that you need racial discrimination to fix perceived racial disparities and again what I would point to is it not just the supreme court case by you know just generally the civil rights act in the fourteenth amendment prohibitors from doing that follow up mr chair and i'm glad you mentioned the fourteenth of monday meant I mean in in the holding and students for fair admissions the supreme court through justice robert sheep just as robert specifically said that there could be context in which these programs would be acceptable under the fourteenth amendment he did not say that these types of programs are completely illegal as you said in your presentation in fact he said that it may be appropriate and things like the military or in the workplace don't did he not well it in our it's our opinion and american principles project that racial discrimination is is always certificate you disagree with you just as robert well I think I think you look at the breath of the decision and we agree with the breath of the decision in that party girl line i'd have to double check in and look at but generally you know II think when it is the policy especially of a of our state agency to discriminate on the basis of race it's wrong one less follow up so under under this I guess you're your research on this today I didn't see any reference any education in this field but I assume you've done research on it are you saying that we need to get rid of things like the equal opportunity officers do we need to get rid of the opportunity. For employees who have been discriminated against in the workplace to air those grievances and try to get redress for it do we need to make sure that disabled employees don't have any access to accommodations do we need to make sure that that trends aren't entitled to get time off in order to go to go to war and make sure that they have a job when they get back are you saying that all these programs ought to be done away with as well because if we're not going to put everybody and even playing field if I were to ask my employer to be off for a year they would fire me. Unless I was a veteran and said i've got to be gone for a deployment for a year that's protected status so are we going to get rid of those protections for veterans and disabled people and other protected classes and that's not what i'm speaking about here today i'm i'm purely speaking about racial discrimination I think there's always considerations for some of these other factors especially factors that aren't listed as protected classes by you know ultimately when it comes to race face discrimination I think we've learned from history that it's a mistake it's creating more problems than it's helping and we should do away with it. Represent spring thank misses thank you once again for your answers to the questions and II guess to follow our representative hudson is in that true that those those different disabilities that she just talked about fall under the same umbrella is race discrimination period thing up there all under their stones that you are dinner. While the americans with disabilities act yeah I look II am focused purely on the racial discrimination on that advocating of a discrimination of the I was just following up to see if you were wear what the statue especially is but now to my question that really wanted to ask you up your i'm looking at your organization that they are appreciate you saying once again that you told the opposed to race discrimination and I really appreciate their however i'm as I look once again on your website american principles project I look at your board members and I look at your staff so can you tell me about the makeup of your board in your staff and why I would add see any people that look like me as a part of your board you say you all for the family so why is that not any of those persons that look like me a part of your board and a part of your staff so I will tell you you know as a policy at american principles project we don't make hiring decisions based on race but we do have our political director is hispanic we have employed african americans in the past you know we have certainly had a racially diverse work for set argumentation best follow up your head so I guess that comes to mind last question is then are you saying the end that no other person qualifies the interview a member of your board to be a member of your executive staff that i've seen on your website is that what you telling us I am not sure I understand the question well i'm just following up to the question that the answer that you just gave us to word the people are within your organization they're not born members nor are they are stay out that are shown on here they have other positions so my question is whether or not you've not had an opportunity to fan in the person that looks like me qualify to hold one of those positions there's a no II understand your question we don't. Racially discriminate so we have not sight out you know far board a person because their black person because they're hispanic but again our staff in a we do have a hispanic gentleman on staff I and a high position a you know we just we don't rationally discriminate period. Representative I think richardson. Yeah. Thank you mister chair ham over here to be for a left and really thank you for for taking time to come here II kind of want to go back to when we when we talk about dei is my understanding based on your your comments that you see and maybe i'm taking some liberty that you see no no value and dei processes in instance in higher learn in institutions of higher learning is that accurate. As as it's configured as as it's understood ah you know but you know ultimately what would we mean by diversity cause I think you know certainly if you're talking about diversity opinions of backgrounds of economic status all those things are valuable you know I think the concern is that DEI elevates race above all things or even in some cases sexual identity and that actually is disruptive too a larger goal of creating a diverse work for swear people of all folks are are able to work together to achieve a goal so based off of your opinion then then there is no value in it but you know I think last week we had members from higher instant tire learning institutions in the state come in here and say it's all of them agreed that there was no advantage is given based on race in their schools in terms of admission in in when I look at the I see it as a as a caveat to help individuals that are there if we look at the university of arkansas let me back up i'm sorry i'm sorry mr chair. Let me ask you this do you know of any issues in the state of arkansas where there was an issue with de like you've seen in the national level can you point to the instance where there has been an issue like the one you've seen at the one you just talked about get the national level that was in front of the supreme court no but what I can tell you is that you know with these programs are exist allowed to exist of course there will be because the gaw of equity at its core is to fix these racial disparities by selecting what more of one group than another in order to get to the right amount right and so ultimately that be gets racial discrimination by necessity so my experience with certain date i'm sorry mister chair can ask has been not quite that is not making decisions based on racial numbers but diversely inclusion diversity equitable inclusion on campuses has been more of a supportive role for those individuals if we look at the university of arkansas where you've got fifteen percent of african american in the state of arkansas and then I think roughly five percent actually attend the university of arkansas die programs have been supportive. To help support those individuals who aren't representative aren't represented throughout the state do you see issue with that II don't see an issue with support programs as long as they're not discriminating on the basis so that's making the assumption that all de programs will be discriminatory based on your statement earlier. I think when you look at the breath of dive programs across the country race tends to be the primary factor at least one of the top two factors that's driving a lot of the decisions especially incorporations especially in government bureaucracy and do you have data to support that. I have any total evidence thank you and a dollar thank you could you tell me what the you mentioned one watch the other two you said top to I would say a sexual identity would be the other aspect whether we're we're seeing a lot of discrimination. So with regards to. How is one. Supportive. Of the other how how are they connected how those twice together I would actually argue that a lot of intention behind d eye on the basis of races as well intentioned because you're you know trying to help folks who are impoverished I would actually see that the the poverty is the issue more than than race but what's happened is that because this is really an ideological movement a lot of these other uh movements have tied themselves to die and so you see you know di activism often is part and parcel with our gbt activism are transactive as i'm even you know we're seeing this right now free palestine activism so this is part of a larger ideology and that that's what i'm getting out here you know the idea of uh you know helping poor folks you know be able to be accommodated I think that's something that everyone in this room would agree with it the issue is okay are we going to discriminate against poor folks of one race and in try to help poor folks of another that's racial discrimination and as I said you know that he gets all the problems that that have gone along with racial discrimination in this country for two centuries. Involves your show I got three on board like to get wrapped up that two thousand we have another matter my goal is to try to give saturday here by three three there'd be a two hour meeting so just wonder give you the tone of the chair if you would represent scott. Thank you mr chair i'm over here I have a question have you ever been discriminated against for the your hair or the color of your scan or red line in practices in in the state or concerned about not making it through a traffic start or are you aware of the return or mortality rates for minority women in this state that the programs help you experience any of that no II i'm a christian and i'm a conservative so I can tell you that yes they have been discriminated against you know there are opportunities that are not available to me because of my diverse belief system that would be a available to folks who subscribe to the regime as I record the regimes preferred of you system so you know absolutely leave you point discrimination yes on the basis of the color of my skin account recall time but insurance happened sex you know I don't I don't know i'm a dude like maybe you know but it's not something that I focus on because you know ultimately i'm looking at through my work at american principles project improving the outcomes of all americans because all people have human dignity and and deserve to be afforded. Can I ever follow. Well as a minority warming who represents a pretty minority district in these are things that people that look like me back and brown people experience quite often in experience in the state as that just as making up something is not a buzz word this is our lives this is our life experiences in it matters in. I understand that you don't see value in that but i'm a christian as well. You know born erased in a choice grandfather's a bishop. But I still believe in advocating for all people. And it's hard for me because you obviously when be the voice for those communities for those women in the state who are dying at a higher rate because they're underserved in rural areas by health care and i'll cause these are like just statistics so the arkansas help commission might already help commission does how programs that helps those women as we're trying to make sure they make it to child birth and if they're ok a year after giving birth and so it's harmful will we do this kind of stuff and we act like it doesn't impact people's lives because i'm here to tell you respectfully it really does. Thank you for being here thank you. Sender dismantled thank you in and and i'm trying to understand what we're weaving together what you're not aware of is a meeting that we had last week in which we had various universities higher education folks coming in and essentially they have the programs but none of those programs in with the selection process and I think that's what he was referring to representatives referring to a minute ago and just to make sure that we're all in the same page in which even my position would be we need more doctors coming out of a role are concerned because they go back to rural arkansas we need more nurses you know we need them to be you know drawn entering university so they can go back out and insert the community for which they grew up in cause there's a greater ten so they go back you're not opposed to those types of things no no okay and that's what an inside then i'm almost don't really understand what the conversation is right now because they call that adr program and I think some of those institutions have it used to words der long before it became what we think of it as today it was you know how do we rego recruit from roll arkansas which may be by the way majority minority young area that the recruiting from so yeah there may be a a tendency that there is a higher number of black people the recruiting but again not given the final say the test scores whatever it may be is. The fact you know that's what it sold determined again you don't have an issue with any of those. No no II think you know some aspects of die that aren't related to hiring that are concerning are you know what I mentioned in the increasingly section the uh you know really trying to sense her speed shore provide people from so it's all that I would take issue with but of course in any well intention program there are going to be some things that everyone agrees on and you know certainly when we're talking about underserved communities I would absolutely advocate for them on the basis of economic need because that's not illegal I think when you do racial discrimination that's where the problem is amount magil was to try to understand how we're bridging what we did last week where whatever I think it was last week with this week and at and so out what I think i'm hearing is you know. What we heard from our harriet folks is pretty much on part with what you would think to be appropriate again it's okay to recruit it's okay to go have conversations to try to get people involved for it I mean clearly it mean if you're in the height suit me which that is meaning to you but there's probably probably have a greater awareness of what it means to be in the medical profession or you know whatever it in experience that someone in south arkansas may not have had but those things you don't have an issue is we may be doing some things right in regards to the. There may be the acronymous is not. You know what it means what it what are you doesn't mean today what it did back when the programs were were started that fair I can't speak for every program but you know i'm sure that they're doing some good things okay thank you. I'm gonna go to er representative. We call. Thank you mister chair you know after like dash been a big political football that's been kicked around and it's you know basically three words I guess my question to you is if you substitute these words for those words a variety for diversity fairness. For equity and opportunity for inclusion. The. Do are those not values that you think are important I frankly would tell you that diversity equity and inclusion are important values it's the race based discrimination and sex based discrimination and intimidation and all these things that are the problem and so regardless of how you know it's um described with really positive sounding polite tested words the actual ideology itself that seeks to discriminate on the basis of race is in my opinion and app's opinion in violation of the fourteenth. Follow up mr chair yes ma'am. You talked a little bit about the dignity of people. I wanted to ask you a more specific question if there is the same six couple that legally married. But can be fired from their job or kicked out of housing do you think that further is the dignity of of their. But then i'm not aware of a same sex couple being fired from their job anywhere in america in the last year ten years it doesn't really have ten years ago I was fire so ten years ago so in the last nine years i'm not aware of that all over america I you know I don't believe that's true and suffer I you know ultimately uh that's just not really a problem in this country and it's not happening i'll be happy to send you that that research over to you on your group and mister just want more question and I think maybe for you like this question is. I guess specifically why this group from virginia was brought in as experts on this. On deirs. Is there a specific reason this group was chosen over others. It was in the works for several for several. Will private last month as far as this group in the charity just straight up in honest there's a lot of talk around the capital about the I wanted to create an environment where we could cap the kind of conversation that we're having today and I and I appreciate very much the committee's tone appreciate very much the respect that's being shown within the room because I think it is a sensitive issue and I think it's being used a yellow and unmultiple levels so with regards to this group because they work with it at the national level with the congressional level as far as trying to establish the the true intent that's why they were selected the chair will be open to any suggestions if somebody else would like to bring it suggestion you know II don't intend to make this a year long conversation piece but what the chair did want to do as I mention is have this kind of open air somewhat uncomfortable conversation but with the dialogue in a manner that we're having I appreciate very much everybody in the way it's being done here because I think it needed to be had I think it needs to be talked about I think doing it and opened format like this was better than you know just other other methods so the chair would entertain any suggestions that a member would like to bring thank you mister welcome thank you okay i'm looking at the lord of because we got to get it down so for whoever's left on the board just hold your spirit but if you will just be my for we're trying to we got one other matter to go to all right and I want to go to. Has go to san johnson. Thank you mister chairman and I will be relatively brief mr schwebby thank you for coming up you have a northern virginia out you. And you mentioned use experience some discrimination because of your christian faith and you're conservatism or whatever up you know we have someone mentioned our governor earlier in her executive order which several of us were there when she promulgated there and. Our governors as you would probably stipulate to relatively well now nationally. Because of a previous employment you do recall incident that happened in northern region when she was working at the white house where people in a restaurant kicked her in her family out to would that be discrimination yeah that if they had been if it will be a referred american family in a restaurant run by white people would that have been discrimination and i'm just trying to to say that just because we can't look at someone and see. What they are and I mean that morally as well as physically a are these other forms of discrimination. Yes III think that racial discrimination is uniquely situated with but I would say viewpoint discrimination as bad and but right now you know under current law racial discrimination specifically is unlawful I recently mischairman if I could follow quickly I recently had up to to visit ireland and when I was in northern ireland I was very sensitive to learning about what they call the trouble switch thanks quite a euphemism but and i'd say that they're a lot they were killing each other over there and both sides were in and I think we're fortunate america there's bad is some of the things that happen in our past are at least it didn't break out quite to what they've had twenty five years ago or so in ireland but uh I act I couldn't help but think as I was really kind of to learn about this. You can't look at an irish protestant or an irish catholic on their face and tell them a part they look alike at least two the american view of things so are are we really just talking about treating each person as an individual rather than trying to ascribe certain characteristics there faith there color there are beliefs is that really what we're trying to just treat people fairly. As individuals that kind of more of a little bit of a maybe it not an amazon say not attainable goal but maybe a higher aspiration yeah II think that's exactly right you know you look at america's past we obviously have had some horrific and justices but you know as thomas jefferson set out in the declaration of independence are aspirational goal has been equality for everyone and and II think that's something that we should hope in the century to to finally achieve but a quality means you know a quality of opportunity for everyone and will never actually achieve a quality of outcome because we're all different we all have different interests and we all have different you know so so I think that we should pursue a quality of opportunity for everyone that seems to me to be at the really most important american idea of catholic thank you sir thank you mister welcome here's here's how we're finishing up are going to represent a spring of representative accurate represent gas way and close out senator solvent senator represor representative spring thank you mister terra i'm I just would want to try to sum up your testimony today in and you can tell me if i'm in error still what i've heard you say and I believe you say it today that you have no data to support their d the base upon your decked up knowledge. Updated that you've collected their da programs have actually discriminated against persons on the basis of race other than the one that the case that you talked about the supreme court only but there is no data across the country that show that there's something that that de programs have done there is that correct II believe that over time you will see enough last suits that show that this has been the case you know every fortune one hundred corporation is adopted I programs this is absolutely happening and you know there's play then it all evidence and investigative research to show that it is also you saying that there is evidence to show that the d programs that are being implemented across the country or a racially discriminatory that is the racially discriminatory sexually discriminatory all the discrimination they discriminate against people when you seek to fix perceived disparities and you are. You know messing with the numbers to basically say we're going to hire more of this group and less of this other group to make the numbers more in line with what we think they should be that is by definition rational discrimination that's the stated gore of many of these dihiring practice what well i'll get ok so if that's the case then then what is your organization doing then to bring that to someone's attention because i'm i'm trying to understand if that's what you say it is taking place then why I mean I guess i'm not understanding why year here to talk about it if you are if you already know that that's the case then I am strange that it's it's bad and so our organization would like to end it and so you know our policy efforts that we've worked on have been to defund it in government and to seek to defund it from organizations or corporations or whatever that are benefiting from from government finds but that's our goals to end it's prevalent as I said my testimony it's in almost every major institution but then but that's your opinion you don't have in a data to support that you just talk about put corporations do i'm talking about actual data that you can present to us statistical data that you can present us to show what you've tested at two that's my question do you have that to share with us if if you do would you please sure the chair of the community store that we can have that information based upon what you just talk about all these corporations and organizations that have done that that they've increase i'd change their demographics of higher whatever based upon race and that you have that they did on their websites they're very proud of DEI and they they celebrate it because what they're doing is making sure that they're getting the highest possible score from black rock and all these esg investors that's that they're they're telling us what they're doing oh okay I don't add on me to debate so i'm finished with it you don't you don't have any evidence that what you say thank I don't think that's why I said I appreciate you. Would i'd like to ask you to send though what I would like to ask you to send. I'd like you to send us a less of the corporations and also any state agencies that you've acknowledged at the federal level if you would please app send that to colleague could we will push that out and if you would specifically list the website that would identify that and reveal that on any corporate charitable non profit state agency government agency if you were going to represent acre. Thank you mister chair and thank you john for being here I wanted to follow up on a subject that I believe representative clown you mentioned which was that. Yeah. You guys seem to operate from a. For like a better word color blind perspective that we're going to tackle economic issues we're in attack on the root cause of what's happening and that you don't perceive race as that's as your address in those issues as you've had successes in addressing those issues when you look back is there anything that you guys have noticed. Benefits people of color even though that was not the intent from the get go. I think that you know II would point to family formation and you know efforts to start discrimination against you know poor folks especially you know trying to encourage marriage for example and encourage you know III think that's ultimately the biggest factor that drives success and so you know we've we've looked at various policies like them and I know doctor ben carson at hide under the trump administration focused on preventing you know fathers from being basically incentivised not to be in the home in section a housing so policies like that you know we we want to to undue and and make sure that we're encouraging marriage you know we even look at things like the child tax credit or the honor of the idea of providing baby bonuses or whatever to help poor folks especially you know be able to have these happen was as well it shouldn't be something limited based on you know where you are at your economic station. Thank you. This. Represent gasoline thank you mister chairman. I guess. You know right. This is a difficult and sensitive conversation. I appreciate that and II legitimately want. You know would like to hear your respites to view of these questions that I have. Representative clown he made mention about the last two hundred years of history in the united states and I think that that's. Historical perspective as a helpful starting place when you look at these issues so. You know we go back to the eighteen hundreds and the institution of slavery in this country. Which didn't earn until the end of the civil war the past thirteenth amendment which prohibited slavery. But even after the passage of the thirteenth amendment. Which prohibited slavery. I don't think anyone would say that. Blacks and whites in this country then on an equal footing. And. Once again after. The thirteenth and fourteenth amendment. You had another one hundred years of history in this country. Until the nineteen sixties. So for the next one hundred years. Blacks couldn't attend the same school as whites and this is as a matter of law. A prior to that they weren't considered all human beings. But as a matter of law for the next one hundred years until the nineteen sixties. Blacks and this country could not attend the same schools as whites. Until nineteen fifties I should say brown versus board. Ah couldn't attend the same school as whites couldn't drink out of the same water fountains as white couldn't go to the same bathrooms. As whites. I've had to sit in the back of the bus. And i'm talking about until the nineteen sixties we don't have the passes the civil rights act until nineteen sixty four. And so here we set sixty years removed from that. And once again those were government policies. And i've heard you reference specifically you your reference horrific injustices. Your reference existing disparities which I would say were caused by specifically. The inactment of government policies. The policies of our government. And so would you not to say that our government has some obligation. To act in such a way to try to rectify those disparities. That were created by those government policies. So this is where why brought up the kennedy quote because I think it actually in a in a good faith way kind of explains the d I ideology which is that. Would the only way to fix these disparities is to continue to to discriminate what I would offer is I think what we should seek to do is to alleviate poverty we should seek to create opportunity for poor folks and working class folks but as long as we continue this cycle of racial discrimination we're going to continue to have the the you know where irritating that scar and ripping it open over and over and over again. And so you know from our perspective and everything you just mentioned you know I that is a horrific time in our history as a horrific and justice and I don't deny you know that it led to a lot of these disparities today. What I would positive the way to fix these disparities as to home you know focus on poverty as a hall and trying to raise everybody up you know there's lots of folks who you know if you look purely on the basis of race or you know immigrant status or whatever now there are folks who are under served or under you know they're their incomes our lower. I think we should help everyone and and I think that's ultimately whether you're republican or a democrat you know when you're trying to create opportunity for people trying to build them up you should be doing it regardless of race that's that's that's basically what we're positing here I actually don't think we're that far apart the problem is just that I think racial discrimination because more racial discrimination be gets more and it won't fix the problem I won't solve anything actually distracts us from the real problem which is poverty and and people not having opportunities. But I want me to see. Thank you. And so I appreciate your response and I don't necessarily disagree. And to be clear I do think focusing on poverty is. It is very helpful in this regard. But we have to understand that think you likely do that statistically. Ah. People of color in this country are by far more impoverished than whites and that is. I think without question clearly because the policies that are government had over a long period of time that have affected them generationally. And. You know to your point of that we have to address this broadly. That. I think the point that I would make and in response and i'd like to hear your response to his. Is that the policies of our government were very specifically targeted. So I mean even if you look back at slavery. There was very specifically targeted if you look back at the laws that prohibited blacks from attending schools with wipes that was very specifically targeted and so you talk about this broad solution. But our discrimination was very specifically focused. So why should we not also have a very specifically focused remedy. To try to rectify those wrongs against a very particular community that was. That was harmed in a very. Targeted way. In short because they think in trying to fix those wrongs we passed laws that said you couldn't discriminate on the basis of race and I don't think I helps or is legal to continue to do so even if it's while intention because ultimately what we're describing here is you know again everyone in this room would agree poor black folks we want them to get ahead right by you know if ultimately were denying access to higher education to i'd say a poor indian poor asian or poor indian or even a poor way and it's all on the basis of race is that fair to those individuals and if those individuals have human dignity and equal opportunity under the law is that fair or are they you know dealing with the sense of their fathers which in the case of you know some of these immigrant populations not even their fathers and so I think ultimately it's really important for us to to to set the standard that we are opposed to racial discrimination we want to help those at the bottom reach up and improve their lives. But if we do it in a way that's discriminatory it's not going to create it it's not going to improve things it's actually going to continue to make them worse. Closing remark and II appreciate once again I appreciate your respites. This is a conversation that needs to be had you know i'm glad that I have an opportunity to engage in this conversation with the outlook forward as this. It knows we continue to explore this issue to continue this conversation. But again thanks for being here and appreciate your remarks thank you representative list said her solvent and then i've got close to come as recognized much here for closing comments thank you so I have heard look like me mentioned several times today and there in the di lingo that kind of referred to the intersectionality there for as I know two hundred different identities now that people can say this is me and it looks like me and here but I look like and I want to buy and represent me who looks like me so in the supreme court decisions they remote all the judge has voted on that there were multiple opinions rendered did anyone reference to look like many defense for her the decision that was made any the justice is bob and that are you aware. I'm not aware ok and mr chair just to comment it was referred to earlier about the women and minority health commission they testified a it maybe it's been a month ago are more the commissioner testified that their services were based solely on need not on any ratio characteristic but that they're. They're services. And there's testimony to there could be a large look that up and provide that reference. We'll have to go back and listen to the date great thank you I want to defer to my co chair represent ray and then i'll give closing comments. Thank you mister chair I guess in closing I would just say thank you for being here and being a part of this conversation as other people have pointed out it sometimes a difficult uncomfortable topic to broach and I think one of the things that i've drawn out of this conversation is just. That. People often mean different things when they talk about the I it's sort of it's sort of a roarshock test to people you you it means what you see it to me or what you want it to mean I think what i'm drawing out of your what of your comments and discussions are the weight practically means things like affirmative action hiring preferences in term in terms of hiring and promotions stifling people speed your viewpoint discrimination things of that nature when those are the practical effects of these policies that is when it becomes undesirable and so I appreciate you bring an attention to that topic thank you would you like to give any closing comments for give my. No thank you everyone for for inviting me here today and also for for participating I think it was a really good discussion. Right and if you word the information I request if you would send that call be placed and member as well push that out to you also the request of senator solid and wants to stay out phones at that in itself. Entirely so it's to make sure it's quoted accurately and all I would say is chair today is I appreciate very much the tone and the conversation in the room the agreements in the disagreement of opinions and positions at individuals may have I think there's long as we have these kind of conversations we can make progress forward and and so I just wanted state as chair co chair how much we appreciate everybody's attitude today never reached participations then well discussed whether it will be back or not we will see but with that I want to thank you for being with us today and and hope to feel received some some good arkansas hospitality like you. All right members run move on to the last item on the agenda which is the discussion which water permits issued by the division of equality environmental quality. In the middle bio in the lake moment water sheds and west pledge county want to ask uh I think mr drinkwater is not able to be with this day that is outright. Share johnson. Mr drink waters unfortunately had to be out of town on business however whose christina center fantasy is here and she will join the the other two people at the table she has very short part of the presentation where I live mr thank you for and richard maze and christians have your would please come forward to the table and just grab a seat. It members why they're taking their seats before asking for official introduction from time to time. Uh. Entities within the public would like an audience before the legislature in order to express a concern maybe agreements or maybe they're just at impasse and part of what this issue is regarding a what appears may be an impasses is that the request of senator johnson chair has hondered that request to come before send to share some information that may be pertinent to this committee not sure there will be any action that will actually come out of it other than if it uh creates a conversation to get the problems resolved with the entities that are involved in it it'll be worth our time to hear what the citizens have to say and so with that we're not put anybody under oath today would like to do is just ask to the my right you're left if you would please that button and if if the all three all have your microphone we have technical problems so so would that mean said we we won't be all turn off you actually get and then whoever speaking keep your miclit up and the other ones if you would if you would turn it off when it's your time speed so i'm gonna start here with a young lady to my right if you would please your name and who you represent please for the record christina center funny pmc. Pinnacle mountain community coalition. Christie and i'm resident of little illegal and i'm a former commissioner on the plasky county planning for it. I'm richard hayes represent i'm an attorney here in like I represent. The penalty come out and community coalition or some members of it and i'm also representing the moment water company water cooperation okay and you'll have a power print powerpoint presidential I think members you've got a copy of if you'd like to go through it a more recognize you just can give the level of expectation we're in a letter and go through their powerpoint presentation which you can make notations of which is as should be respectful of time and once you get through it I want to open it up for questions from the members or any comments that you all would like to you that you can give is you go through it and then we'll open it up for questions your comments and you'll go with that all right and who's going to be the present around the power point is that all three of your christianity i'm going to present and chris into front day is going to read a letter. Okay very good if you would go ahead and and start thank you mister chairman doing a favor which pull the mike so I can hear you well ladies loss off there might close your help though help us here better. Thank you. My name is christiane's a great granddaughter of little at least founder just bloody i'm a native are kansan i'm literally a president and close neighbor of rolling and why communities and a former commissioner and the plastic county planning board I served from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two i'm a proud constituent of siner mark johnson who's a great our canson and he's a voice of the people of our areas I won't think senator johnson in singer kim hammer in the entire jpr committee for allowing our communities to speak on this important topic. I hope governor sarah had could be sanders is listening we won't hurt to be aware of what's happening out here. It's not a glamorous topic but it's one that could have a long reaching positive impact for our state if it's addressed it's not easy for me to be here i'm not at public speaker but i'm making myself come in sit here in talk with you all because it's necessary. The. There have been several failures of government agencies as a commissioner I witnessed violations and experienced failures with plasky county government that were unfortunately not limited flask accounting planning but it continued under adq if the violations that I saw weren't on purpose then it has to either be sloppy work or share incompetence it's all and acceptable. Um. There are code violations by applicants and staff. The sites were bulldozed they were cutting it of roads before plate certification there are missing documents with a plate sometimes the plat was marked ok documents were not received until after the plate was approved by the commissioners I could go on and i. There are other incidents outside the scope of this meeting. So the failures continued with adequate. Eighty eq relies upon a approvals such as the plastic county planning preliminary plate approval. In its permitting decision for sewage treatment facilities unfortunately eighty equashes at hands even knowing an approval by another agency was reported flawed. Without doing a throw investigation into the alleged violations they just take the applicant's word to me it's kind of like. The fox guarding the hindhouse so we have agreement statement the ad is we gone inspections enforcement and week and good engineering practices and thereby fails to protect arkansas streams lakes and wet lens and it's permitting decision for both ways water treatment and discharge and storm water ran off in some instances the case it as in the case of stream degradation they are violating federal law and state regulation the ad has shown disregard in the public's eyes for our health disregard for federal federal regulations disregard for state regulations disregard for the ship boat process and house for decades been operating an unfair system due to lack of oversight and reporting. The system is such that boxes are checked with out considering facts and it's own legal authority to protect the higher standard and therefore has just merely become a permit mill. The. Oh yes i'm sorry thank you. That's what I earn my sly that I just finished. A shipo stands for state historic preservation office if you didn't know that. There are three examples of eighty failures that we want to talk about today one is the water use of states sewage facility in rolling it's an existing facility. In the twenty ten npds permit agreed to allow the applicant to dump three hundred times the legal limit of chlorine and a zero flow stream. This was allowed to happen for seven years. Eighty allowed the same applicant. The sixty day requirement to comply with submitting a plan for the total residuals of coring which is trc. Bmp which is best management practices and the twenty seventeen permit they allowed it to slip to fifty days and then never followed up to ensure the bmp standard was met. Eighty allowed water view states to treat sewage with toxic levels of chlorine without a decorination system installed for five years. After every issue of their permit in twenty seventeen. No bmp was executed by adq although it was required in the permit and the current twenty twenty three addition of the permit is giving the application three more years. To comply with AB and p for trc decoration systems are available for purchase today and there is no consumer reason to allow this applicant eight years to comply with the b and p for trc. Eighty is allowing wireviews state sued to solely to operate with an expired permit. Without penalties i'll repeat that again and expired permit no penalties. Why do you state sugar facilities applicant has two consent administrative orders yet eighty q readily approved another permit for this bad actor bad actor is the technical term used in environmental law and it's not a personal attack. So they issued another they proved another permit for this bad actor for the paradise value developments new sewage facility in rolling. Eighty q is given power by the legislature to deny permits for reasons of bad actor history. There are many more examples of eighty failures with water view states. And this is just the tip of viceburg eighty has also failed in its responsibility to inspect an enforced controls on storm water ran off from the same applicants three mile diversion ditch. Which has sent millions of gallons of storm water without controls for sixteen years and counting. From the late moment water shared north into the mill by mill by you water shed in roland. Thereby flooding neighbors including a significant native american archaeological site. Causing costly and irreversible erosion and disappoint does the creation. Only until the citizens brought it to their attention to eighty inspect the site. It has been eleven years since the last inspection in twenty eleven. And they had found significant violations. The. The second example is paradise valley suggest facility in rolling this is a new permit that was recently issued. Paradise valley and water view state sewage facility permits do not contain a requirement for faster nor does it even require testing and reporting northwest arkansas has a requirement for fast risk. Faster is causes all you to grow and chokes water systems creating a hazardous situation for people and animals. The. Eighty also lowered the stream standard to allow this applicant to use chlorine as a disinfected for both paradise valley and water view state sewage facilities allowing steam stream degradation which can flicks with their state commitment to enforce the state anti degradation policy the applicant never asked for a wetlands and waters of the us delineation and never was going to for its site and sewage plant until the citizens brought it up to eighty. Yeah. They didn't think it was a water of the us. The native american tribe. Represented by osage nation had requested to meet with the eighty equiting a significant archaeological site can trip containing a great number of burial mountains currently being impacted by the storm water from waterview states and the imminent threat of desecration posed by the new paradise valley sewage facilities they'll probably be two to three so which facilities in this area as the development reaches full build out of about six hundred homes in this rural and incorporated community. But eighty q did not meet with this tribe before issuing the permit. The local water company moment water corporation which serves over one thousand customers in rolling from three drink drinking water wills when is near the area of impact from the paradise falling sewage facility and storm water ran off and as asked you from for an impact study before approving the paradise valley permit eighty repeatedly ignored mama water corporations concerned an issue the permit anyway. The outfall location of the suggest facility is classified as the smallest if the world streams and it's a dry part of the year ditch which means that the only flow at times will be which is expected to be poorly treated sewage which will stagnate in the buy you which is the definition of a buy it is slow moving this sewage facility will accumulate and create talks at conditions eighty q nose this and still issued the permit to a bad actor. Educate knows that this area floats and increasingly so due to the applicants and control storm water ran off. And what is expected to be poorly treated sewage will move into areas it wasn't intended people's yards. To the road horse and car pastures. We have seen it. We've seen the flooding. Adq knows a natural pristine what that has excellent water quality and is capable of sustaining a quartet terrestrial and many other life forms will be impacted the property owners in that area also use the wetlands for recreation such as hunting. Their land is valuable to them. This placement will destroy the property values and enjoyment of their own properties. Adq declined the invitation by the residents to come out to our location. There are many more examples of idiotic failures with paradise valley permitting this is just to drop in the buck our third example is better heights in between county. This is an inactive permit. Adq is as repeatedly dozens of times to send an inspector to battle heights in their early morning hours to catch the city discharging rall sewage under private property pictures were provided to the department regularly showing the illegal discharge. The newspaper printed pictures and the television station ran pictures. But no inspector ever came from id. In twenty twenty to start the sewage facility in the eighty madness I call it. The people voted to dissolve their own town and next into springdale. This should upset olivers it really makes me angry when I think about it the small arkansas community incorporated in nineteen sixty seven and had to take such a drastic action to unincorporate to preserve their own health. Not everyone can make this move. Eighty should be totally shamed of what they didn't do here and they never visited and decide does that sound familiar. We have several photos to illustrate no buyer in the rolling area. Uncontrolled storm water rent off in the past the poorly treated sewage will take. With these are for mentioned examples this could be any town arkansas usa incidentally eighty question all of these photos. Residents and experts tested the waters of mill buying and found it to be a very high quality. This is a pristine mill buyer wetlands with decks which is where the sewage. Will be impacting and also the storm water ran off. Rolling cut off after a two inch rain. This is mainly storm water from water beautiful states diversion ditch. There are no controls they have five outforms. And they ran north into mill by you and this is what it looks like after a two interain and this is on its way to the. Tributary where the treatment plant will be discharging what interrupt your national question is the disflooded before they had or is this did this areas historically have. Does this hear you have historic evidence of flooding prior to all it does it is a low lying area but however there the developers diversion ditch has been expanding west and so this type of flooding I have been told by the residence is unprecedented they've never seen this kind of flooding okay thank you. And here is an example of the dry season no buy you as you can see there is zero flow so what will happen is the affluent will be the flow. The osage cease and assist letter is displayed here and I would like to please ask christian to found to read the. Later in its entirety thank you very it stated april fifth twenty twenty three let me interrupt it is that a copy of the letter that we have in the in the. Presentation. Yeah yeah sorry just it is it is entire copy of the letter or a dim if they were not to that to be rude rate thanks we're going to forego having that red we've all been flipping through okay no I know i've looked at may I read an except may I read the next served from it. In the ex in the letter it says as there's an excerpt osage nation understands permitting calculations were conducted for the increased water but known included potential effects to the secret travel properties. To adhere to the national historic preservation act and national environmental policy act legislation do you misconsider effects to travel properties. Additionally to avoid violating the arkansas state and markburial act any effects to burials must be avoided anyone knowing desert creating or permitting the desecration of a barial mount ground. Commits a class definitely on the on the first offence and a class seafelony unsubsequent offenses and it goes on to say zero government to government consultation has been conducted for this project and increasing concern procedure nation. There is interagency communication breakdown that I witnessed. Advise not reviewing forms. For example the adq notice of intense dorm water application was checked no by the paradise valley applicant and answering if waters of the union nine states would be impacted is not reviewing these forums or they surely would have noticed that this was incorrect and would have sent back to the applicant to please check the correct boxes. And then the core would have been properly notified the citizens instead in formed the core and the equivalent the project. And there are very very stiff penalties for answering these boxes incorrectly. Yeah. Eighty q is in reactive mode there are several examples that exist if eighty few failures and preventing waste water disasters all over the state of arkansas. For example where's fork decader there was inadequately treated sewage flowing in the past two years into the west board of the white river from west works treatment plant and into columbia hollow creep from decaders plan according to records at the arkansas department of environmental quality this was from a dim gauss article in twenty nineteen. That same article goes on to describe ridge issues centreton issues and. Like you worst. Is in the late mammal water watershed it has a pending eighty storm water permit. Yet they've been constructing homes and using heavy equipment to move earth and construct roads this work is being done with out proper implementation of b and ps we have some photos and those b and ps which have been implemented are not being properly maintained. Went messaged as a skip to developers who take care to follow the rules and go to the expense to follow bmps and do the right things. It's not fair to them. If other developers that follow the rules and save their money in the process. Yeah. So we have some questions. How many other adeq permanent projects are allowing applicants to delete damp illegal amounts of chlorine. Allow deadlines to slip and be impeased to fail are not receiving adequate inspections have expired permits and are operating without penalties are dumping sugar into zero flow streams how many other adq applicants are given such an inordinated amount of time to comply to be appears to the detriment of arkansas citizens streams lakes and wetlands. Why are bad actors allowed to so much leeway and concessions with the add why is fast for his removal testing and reporting not required everywhere in arkansas. How many other projects with adq have not undergone at wetlands and waters of us delineation. The us aca or the corner core of engineers issues. Four or four permits probably in the dozens yet eighty issues there are storm water permits and a hundreds so what does that sell you. Why would a storm water permit be pending for a site under construction and who is responsible for inspecting sites from to ensure the swpp which is a storm water pollution prevention plan b and ps are being met why is eighty avoiding person to person discussions with a tribe who is requested a meeting perhaps they didn't get the mimo with governor sanders declaring september eighteenth of the twenty fourth native american week. Why is eighty q avoiding person to personal discussions with malma water corporation. About their drinking water will concerns if it was caw central arkansas water would they have met their demands mamma water corporation service over a thousand vs central arkansas water who serves nearly five hundred thousand customers did marmal water corporation not have enough customers to matter. The. These are some of our suggestions. Ad's latership should be made to answer for their permitting decisions inspections reporting engineering practices by looking at use in other case studies. Adq has failed every reasonable test for managing chlorine as a disinfected. Especially for no flow streams and because of this the legislature should remove the stumbling block and require a different type of disinfectant system be used for all discharges and no flow streams. Regulation six of the state administration of the npds should be amended to prohibit any potential future discharges from cities industries or developments in the middle by your watershed which is the location of three drinking water wells. Such a prohibition currently exists for late moment water shed in the the buffalo river water shared. Also please consider a prohibition against discharges in a natural weatherness in your homes in a flood plane. Enclosing residents not only give our representatives are vote but also our trust. The. We've been trusting that our government appointed officials and agencies are doing the right thing for the people of arkansas. Unfortunately this has been found to be admitted a myth in some cases in the trust is broken. Now we the people buy whom and for whom the federal state in local governments remain require an accounting. This issue is not democrat republican but it's our candidate. We can all agree that we won't save streams lakes and wetlands to enjoy. Edq needs to be bright to task and if they're if this requires new leadership at all it's level so be it because this issue is bigger than any one person. I think adq is under undermining the governor stated goals for the natural states clear running streams and leaks. Arkansas are cansons have been sounding the alarm for years and today is judgment day. Fixed the au before arkansas the natural state is no longer the reality but much for thinking thank you may you have anything mister mate. Mismatch do you have anything. Mr chairman i'm here at the invitation of senator johnson senator johnson's constituents happen to be. My clients in this case admirable job of representing their interest. And when he asked me to appear here was happy to accommodate. I'd be happy to answer in the questions you may have there are certain areas that are subject to confidentiality or the attorney client privilege which cannot answer but I would be happy to answer any questions you might have with regard to. The subject matter of this case. Um. Anything to offer before before I turn around senator johnson with a question. I'm sorry mr chairman re redressing me i've I would just make insurer older than have anything else for it turned it over oh no sir. Thank you mister chairman and thank you panel. Yeah. This is better complicated thing for some time and I came into this mr chairman in a. With a positive attitude to our state all our state agencies. And i. Was actually shocked at some of the things that happened in this process a tended the public hearings on the permit that the earlier this year that the machines was referring to and the. I just thought that the case made to not grant to permit what was so. Overwhelmingly strong that oh how would you shocked when the permit was approved and went back for the the second hearing and I don't that completely sure I understand the exactly what is what but there are several things that have have jumped out at me and I wanted to do to ask. I appreciate mr rays coming because he it not only is attorney but very familiar with environmental law and one time actually work for or its predecessor agency. Is there anything. That let me just put it this way is there anything and i'm not asking you to verify every fact that that machine said but in general when she refers to the violations for example the chlorine levels the flower into the the dry streams is there anything that you. In your pit professional opinion seems to not be factually correct. The. Well the. This case is a difficult case and the sense that. Adq has been asked to buy the application mister ferguson in his companies. Two issue a permit for the discharge of waste water household was water into a receiving stream called me all it's an unknown unnamed tributary of mill bio which is a small creek that runs near rolling in the north where it's part of the county. It terms the extreme floods and it's an account of early area and when it rains hard it floods but in the summertime when there's no rain it frequently has very little if any flow and in fact there are last year when we had a charlie extended drive period there was no water in milk at all. Well the subdivision that is proposed to be developed that will be dushed discharging into male creek will have some apparently some three hundred houses in it. They have a waste water treatment facility that is permitted not built yet but permitted to discharge roughly fifty thousand gallons of. Waste water per day. And a terms this stream by would have nothing in the flow of the room of the bio other than that voice. There's also a proposed additional development development next door or joining this property by the same developer who. Had proposes to put in another voice water treatment plan at the same location for another fifty thousand flower discharge. So you will have at some point in the development of all these you will have a hundred thousand gallons maximum of was wire flow into this potentially dry area. The treatment system is a chlorine treatment system which uses chlorine tablets that are they look like hockey perks. And they are supposed to be fair to enter this coronation chamber that the voice water goes through nature where one drops in after another and in order roses and having all the tables in the chamber at one time if you have all the tablets in the chamber at one term you get too much chlorine. And it goes out the end of the pie if you get a million dropped in more at a time it read you late strength of the chlorine treatment and it the the affluent is not as concentrated with chlorine as it would be if you're getting you have all the time that's in the chamber. The thing that bothered me about this case especially is that the person who is proposed promoting this waste water treatment plan. Is the developer who also has the late I mean sorry the water view estates. Property out in west lower rock overlooking like mall mail as you may recall years about ten years ago there was a big. I controversy about whether that subdivision should be built and how to keep the which water out of the moment late from that suburb is in because it was upgraded. That was resolved but they they do have a waste water treatment plant from water view of states that is essentially the duplicate of this player that they are proposing to put paradise value. And they have heard four inspections of this plan in the last ten years which is a some very small amount of inspections. Three of those three of those out of the four. There have been found balances to exist in the chlorine treatment of the voice water instead of using the the tubing that drops the the tablets the chlorine tablets into the white swater that's being treated one at a term. Until the one they put one in until it's dissolved and then the other one goes in and so forth the tablets were all placed in the bottom of the chamber and that's not the proper way to do it and has result there but there has been no testing for total total chlorine that's going out it's it's totally unknown as to what's going out of the pipe. And it does happens here and I think we I mean you can you can almost take the pin on the fact that if they're being cited for violations of the. Permit. And the treatment system at one plan then you can probably fully expect to have violations in the internal difficult plan right down the road that's being run by the same people. This is a very valuable piece of water the milk creek is the source of drinking water for over a thousand households out in rolling. The cup I represent the water company out there and they have wells that are looking at drawler water from the bottom of mill bio. Downstream just downstream from the location where this was waters to be district to be discharged. It makes no sense to me at all to allow a discharge of voice water particularly voice water mixed where they had those of chorine. That is immediately upstream from the intake system of a public water supply company. And the water if they if this contaminates the wales the moment water companies wales. It's not like you can flush out the pool plug or flush a handle or something in the and the opportunity gets cleaned out it takes years to clean out an awkward for once it's contaminated. You cannot take a chance where they public water supply and that's what bothers me about this you might take in another question representative chairman is approved from when asmed will repay up here from eighty qs questions my questions are really for him okay we can help my if you want to let you do this edq present the room. All right if you would i'm on a escalator. Step to the side of the back to the chairs if there's questions for you i'll i'll have your comeback up what we're doing when here from adq and then we're going to get three on the public sign in cheap will at them come and give their testimony. And thank you after being here today if you would please name entitled for the record please thank you lauren ballard chief of staff for the department of energy and environment good afternoon everybody i'm kale bosburn department of energy and environment's chief administrator of the environment and the director for deq thank you for being here this afternoon sir johnson light up i'm going to first you'd. Asked if you would recognize you a demographic of representative mister chair can we make a brief comment yes you may sure yeah II thought it would be helpful to come to give the committee an idea of where the permits that we've been discussing today or in the process because I think that's important to this discussion at length you've heard from the presenters they have spoken directly about two way swatter permits for two subdivisions why do let you know kind of again where those are so the waste on her treatment permit that is on the water view of states I believe the president did mention that was granted some time I go I believe two thousand seven ish might be off by a few years so that permit has been there's an application for that to be renewed so that is pending before the division that permit I don't believe I think it went out and draft status but his has not gone out in the final forum so there is still work being done on that permit as to the second which is paradise valley that's another name you probably heard in the presentation that particular permit has been issued in final form which means that. Has had an opportunity to review a lot of the the comments from the general public that's part of the process that's prescribed by the law and issued a response to those comments in the permitting process again that's also prescribed by law so that permit has been issued that is currently under administrative appeal by you know mister is representing clients and that action and there may be some other participants in that action as well so why do let you know that there are these two are still in a a status of working through the administrative process I would be happy to provide this committee with a link so that that can be reviewed and you can see where those are but as part of what eighty equs a lot of the comments are the comments that were brought up today those are brought up under the different permittee and actions and actually have been addressed by eighty given responses have been given through the permanent process. And that is probably the best place to sort of direct to this committee to understand sort of the responses to those particular a concerns. So let me ask you a question and. The I guess question is first or would you send that information to mr little please that you reference so that we can push that out to the committee so they can they can have their you mentioned two things there want to think was what the public company come out in what was the first thing. It seemed like you mentioned to say there's I think what what is being addressed what address by the the panel that came up were two different permitting actions those are one has gone to a final status and is currently into administrative appeal the other one is still under considerate considered racious I can't say they were consideration for review by the division of environmental quality okay and if you were just send out to call we saw that he can he can push it out about one question. So you said the first permit that was issued in two thousand seven is up for renewal it did I understand that roth that's correct okay. So those are issued in a five year for five year term each five every five year cycle there's a renewal that's done think the initial the most recent one was issued in twenty seventeen and it is that for in the midst of its cycle for renewal. And so that's what depending before us right now my real to center johnson and representative bentley some happened either dropped off okay all right. Any the factual items that machines had in her presentation specifically I want to know about the request for inspections when it's inspections. Either occurred or didn't occur when they were requested and a. If the word inspections is your documentation that can be provided to the committee on both the dates and times in the results of those and spaces. Thank you senator is one thing i'm please build a highlight that we have inspections have been conducted they're in in an attempt for clarity I will speak generally if there's a specific one of the permits or sites you would like to ask about we can maybe talk about those but each of these sites I think every site every permit she mentioned today his head inspections completed by do you personnel in all of those are when the inspection report is completed all those are made available on our website we have we have worked very hard of the less over years to make as much that information is publicly available as possible in addition to the permitting record that are the the permitting action itself that she ballared mentioned every comment that was submitted on the paradox valley comments available there we have complaint documents inspection documents are reports for all these sites that are there there are a number of permits and machines reference there were a couple of them the I believe she gave our agency shorts rift on the amount of time in the never inspections we've done could you document them we are happy to relinquish for the for the ones that she provided and do what you all the no as a committee that if you ever have a particularly on our office of war quality sad we have with some or other permitting regimes were working on making more that forward facing but we have worked very hard to make put that information out there so that the members of the general public can be aware and I think this is an instance where we have and I don't remember which of the permits it was but it was brought up earlier we have not been out to inspect or actually I do know the better heights situation that happened your springdale there is on the slide it says there are no inspections conducted I pulled up one link that had between fifteen and twenty inspections in our inspectors had been at some rep for a moment yesterday. One of the things that speaking to others about the bether highest situation was that. And i'm i'm going back to reports I didn't go I never sight but my understanding was that the terror bathroom heights would dump this sewage in the middle of the night and the the residents people of their ask you to send someone to be there when the perpetrators were doing this under the cover of darkness and that was when that no one would actually respond although I was in stated well the newspaper and television station and northwest arkansas did cover there so i'm does the agency dispute that fact well I dispute the fact that the slide of president into this committee that said we not conducted inspections my previous involvement in battle heights and I will say I was in charge the offer water quality sixteen seventeen eighteen when the better heights issue was emerging the primary concern at that time was surfacing due to the type of waste word treatment system that it was they had distribution lines ran out in supposed to be similar to it accept system would work they were run and as a drip irrigation field the problem is if you overload the soil you have surfacing on top of the soil that was the primary situation that i'm aware of I know that there were questions and allegations about dumping in in some of us are things but the information I was worth of the time now this was resolved in the town after I left the agency that it was primarily surfacing from drip irrigation lines and I think that may be we're some of the confusion in misunderstanding is however decuded respond they entered into a cao which was not met ca was considered administrative order it's an agreed upon order which is intended to resolve the enforcement issues and valations that are conducted have occurred that alternative resulted in further legal action which came to heard about the same time that the decision was made by the city of bethleheads to be absorbed into springdale and I don't bring that went out to relitigate all that history that was a very complicated in difficult permit but. I do highlight that to show that we we have some extensive record of things that we've done we have a number of our inspectors time at these sites and we're happy to provide you all on these that are mentioned today. And going forward because I know these sites come up from time to time we're happy to provide you information on those and help you see what we're seeing as we document those was chairman I would like to deferred a representative bentley for a moment but I would like to come back after she finished issues I have some questions that both for the representatives of adq as well as mister bays on on the issue on it one a more issue. Okay for money thank you thank you. I've got three just be my followed right about three on the public comment list they don't want to give an up to to speak so represent between. Thank you chairman I would brief a lot of questions that could ask the very near this era my district but set right next to this area that we're talking about here so how can you answer this question have you tested the chlorine level of the waste water that's coming from the war reviews states it would mean type when have you tested the clone level so under their current permit it was issued in twenty seventeen there was a permit requirement for monitoring and reporting the issue of chlorine is a complicated one because epa may changes in recent years to the detection method and limit of what is done when water quality sampling and testing is done this is created a challenge for wastewater treatment systems across the entire state of arkansas occurs chlorine is one of the most common in one of the most effective means of disinfection for wastewater. The challenges if the new detection limit in the level that they have to get to if you use some of the traditional chlorine treatment approaches that a lot of these systems have and i'm not just these non municipal systems these are all over the state. You have to get the chlorine levels down to a very very very small amount on the discharge and that's why the declination that was mentioned there was mentioned by mac ins is a is a technologies is being implemented the other alternative is ultravat light but those the uv systems are also very challenging it can be castly to implement so to your question we included in the permit a monday and reporting requirement for that five year cycle in which they were intended they were they were required since they intend to their requirements install best management practice to limit the amount of chlorine that came out in the discharge their arses are supposed to test and then they report that on the monthly report thank their monthly on this was sometimes we have quarterly reports for different parameters but our staff receives those reports and we have those in and I don't have those on me right now but we can document that but in this next cycle for the permit and the renewal that's pending before us. The typical processes we give them time to monitor into report to us what they're seeing and then in the next cycle we will give them a period of time to install this assuming that they are not meeting the level they need to on the chlorine we will give them a window of time to install those controls which like would be a decoronation or maybe you know a uv system. And just one more time have you has tested the chlorine lower coming out of this. Voice water system from more abuse states i've been tested to see what the chlorine level is yes or no the permanent is required to test and report that to the agency we have those reports that we have received so they have given your report so that we have nowhere to clarify whether those reports are accurate so there's never time that i'm sorry chairman is asking a way but does their time when eighty two goes to verify those reports are accurate at any time you go to say because we just put anyone on a piece of paper and send that report and so as the return that we verify that those reports are accurate and we're getting correct amount of windows coming out of there given the concern that we've had from constituents there are quality controls in place in their labs that conduct this work that required to smith quality control plans we do assess those and review those as part of our compliance process and enforcement process those are things we can look at but it is a condition of the permanent which is signed by the responsible party for inperimenting they sign off on these reports that are submitted verifying the the accuracy of those reports and it is a compliance problem and can be subject to enforcement of those are not met I have not looked at these specifically but that is a process that we go through when we review their monitoring reports. So forgive my ignorance for a quick on this a third party lab they have to represent that warrant for a third party lab to get the medical limits in there and that is part of the reports that correct or not typically that would be the I think that would be the best way to describe that especially for a system of this as some of the larger systems big municipal systems may have some of their own testing capacity on site but for them in the main it's to third party labs thank you and another question chairman is that okay okay so another aspect they were given I was used dispute the fact that the proposed paradise bally sewage facility or don't realize a voice water to dry string brea. The permit is written one of the conditions in the permit as a flow which is how much wire treated was water will come out of the facility I believe that is about the right number I don't have the the permit is in here and I can find that and confirm that for you but that sounds like it's in the ballpark that is typically on these permits though for some for some point of context we look at them and millions of gallons per day so this of the fifty thousand would be point zero point zero five in gd large treatment plans for getting up towards one mg and so this is a very very small plan during the times when there is no flow in the stream yes that would that would comprise the stream during the dry period during the other parts of the year typical parts of the year in the fall I know we looked at some of the data in it this flow compared comprises a very small like less than a percent of the flowing stream. One quick follow up a merchant sure do you know understand the concerns of these constituents that live would live there near that area that we have a drive at numbers and all this in their system is sewage being dumped into that drive by you but if I live there I would very much concern me just you understand the concerns of the constituents that they brought forth today with that driver just been full of sewage water dumped in there. Yes ma'am we do and we appreciate their concerns and have worked to respond to those as best we can and are in the comments that were submitted during our permit issue it's process in we hear them we hear the concerns we understand that in and we recognize that that is a concern for them but ultimately our goal is to have this site operating compliance with their permanent limits if they are operating in compliance with their permits then we can issue that believe in there's not to be. Negative effects to human health over the environment as a protest with with doing. I'll start for an out thank you let me ask you a quick question when back to senator johnson so under on the readings that are supposed to come out. Who is it that actually goes back because what if I did not misunderstand yourself the responsible party takes you readings they send them to your. Does anybody actually ever go back out behind them and. Just kind of keep them honest. So I hate our interest in response that question there's there's two steps that we take that part of this process the first is we have we refer to his our compliance section these are inspectors are in the field when we have the question earlier about inspection reports these are the individuals they're actually located at various officers or work stations throughout the state they work in different regions and state i'm responding to complaints doing with the routine inspections that we do we have in for each of you know each air water in land that each have their own and these the ones who gather that intelligence and information to provide it back we also have an enforcement section the the reports that you're asking about we have a team at our offices here in central arkansas. We'll do periodic reviews of documents and reports that are submitted in er. As part of definitely the permit renewal process every time this comes up every five years but really in the interim of that if we have complaints if we have had an inspector on site who has questions about how things have been handled we will do periodic reviews of those to see. To see what's going on here to dig in and find out more than senator charge thank you miss chairman of. Mr as well almost feel like a my constituents are drowning in sewage in your agencies is overhoiled with paper and i. Appreciate the fact that both good procedures and probably the tell you what paper you're supposed to receive and generate however if you don't follow up with it. And no one's actually looking but yes they sent in that form so we stick in the file so they're in compliance they're not as far as way my constituency in compliance and i've got two particular things that were in the power point from missing as I want to address and get your response the first one is the eighty q allowed the application this was what of you state the sixty day requirement to comply with submitting a plan for total researchers of chlorine that's trc. At the best major practice that was in the twenty seventeen permit and allowed that to slip two hundred and fifty days and then never fold up to ensure that the b m p standard was met is that truthful is it not truthful or is there some grey area that you can eleven. To for this particular issue senator i'm not sure the details of the the factual record of this could you get that for super provided to the committee we can look into it we can provide that information that the second one. And and i'm not even going to go over this because there's there is an issue that really grabbed my attention thanks to mr maze I didn't know about this but in a more pair phrase is for for the benefit of the committee are when why review states was created it's on the amount now we're looking like marmal now like more male correct me family that's water supply for central arkansas water therefore the city little rock north of rock and really the region there was a concern by caw about this project and they came up with an agreement back in two thousand seven to create a concrete land ditch according to mr maze information it was originally one mile long or less with. Yeah sidewalks on a bottom with the five feet and it was conduct it was constructed on land owned by water view but the idea was it would divert the natural drainage family which would go into like malmail and diverted over to the north side which would be in the in the more toward the role and area which is under the. Ah water system that uh mister moses referring to which is yeah I guess I select my mail water system but they which has wells and this is a hitting the aquifer of that so basically by putting this concrete digit you're taking the problem away from ca w but effectively sending it over up to the north to a different water authority now there is some a alert mister bays described what's going on with with the violations on this but is there that basically describe what has been done in the service then since with this date in this this diversion. Based upon comments that we have received from a number of commenters on our permit all of those actions that were described in in that and those facts. Do not relate to the aspects that we permit we are responsible for permitting history the only piece it would be any ground disturbance that it occurred and I don't know the facts of what it all the details would happen in two thousand and seven ground disturbance it occurs we issue promotes the deal really with the run off of settlement and potential tribidity issues that causes and then our discharge permanent relates to the treatment of waste water and how there is discharge base we have received a number of comments on this front that is beyond the scope of the permits that we are directly involved in particularly the ones that we had before us and receptive to an appeal this issue's been brought up a number of times based on what has been shared with us that is consistent or what we have been told but the a lot of the or the the majority of those details are beyond the the region the scope of our permitting authorities in a mischairman I think it's important note agree of mr eyes more on their committee we are here we are heard every committee as part of our oversight function of state government and when we find things that. In a more we use a very broad term here appear to be wrong then it's a comment upon us is legislators to make noted there and then prepare for regular session where weekend code unquote fix the things that are wrong now i'm not so name is to think we can fix everything and certainly we work within what epa are. Want us to do insists that we do under the law and whatever and that's that's a good thing because you know pollution and missouri and alcohol when it comes to arkansas vice versa but. I think we've done a great job of these agencies do a great job of of covering their you know what with paper but what are we trying to accomplish it we're trying to protect the environment we're trying to keep a your kids and my kids from having to swim and raw sewage we're trying to keep our water supply pristine so you know we don't all have colorer or whatever so i'm i'm only porting out and i'm going to we can we could spend probably here till midnight asking these cancer questions but I think it's been established that. We don't have a paperwork shortage but we may have a follow up shortage and I will not burden my my colleagues with any more of these types of questions except for the fact that do what mister mays to come back when anyone else has anything for these witnesses certainly II don't want to take your time but but when when there's complete I would like mr mays to come back I have a couple of short questions for him but mischairman I might cannot cut myself off right now just because we are bit off quite a bit and I think we as a journal assembly and I don't just mean JPR but all this may have a lot more to chew on after this but thank you and witnesses thank you both for coming in your candor. Represent hurting. Thank you mister chair just for a point of clarification because that another spend a lot of discussion about these particular areas are we talking about sewage what type of water quality are we talking about is it run offers at sewage could you give us some explanation of what that is II think that there's been a lot of terms being thrown around no just want to make sure that we're clear thank you. Thank you the question I will do my best to try to distinguish because in throughout the presentation and through some of our discussions we have blended and crossed over from different terms of what's going on. Four dq our responsibility is we issue permits for the discharge of treated was water tree sewage we make sure that when it comes out the end of a pipe that is what our permit authorizes when it comes out in the pipe and goes into a creek stream we usually further there's a receiving stream they don't meet certain standards the meat arkansas water quality standards those are in our what we call our rule too. Their applicable broadly across the state of arkansas and is was mentioned in this discussion earlier arkansas has very high quality water which is a wonderful blessing comparatively to some of our neighbors there are less fortunate but it is also a big challenge that we have in is one that I think our team does a very admirable job rather than the occasion of doing that but it we recognize it at times it creates questions and concerns about these places there are special and places that people uh were of and have known for a long time so the discharge permit that we talked about specifically around paradise valley in the renewal for water viewer states those are in pds discharge permit so that deals with treated sewage several of the concerns that we received in the comments we received from the public that were several of those addressed here have to do with storm water run off. Those only fall under our per view to the extent. The we permit construct referred to our construction storm water general permit so if you were disturbing more than five acres of ground there are controls that have to be in place so that the run off from the dirt does not cause negative impacts to water quality these amounts of flow and the redirection of water and some of the things that senator johnson just mentioned those are not directly regulated by a status a separate issue it is one that we have not been empowered by this general assembly and instead arkansas state law two address directly in at I don't think many people want us doing that. But several the issues that were brought up in this presentation regarding flooding some of the issues related to the historic preservation office it does some of that those are related to run off from rain while it rainfall storm events those things in with except for a small number of them where there have been some potential connections to permitted areas that we are under construction that we are related to they do not directly involve us. Okay and I know you'll in here for the presentation so the picture of this water that was going across the road that's not sewage is going cross road just to be clear some of that discussion here was a little bit alarming so I just wanted to make sure I understood what this was when we were present with those pictures previously in the discussion I think in the caption above it says something about two in its rainfall about that is that is storm water and run off i'd where it is a proximity to waste where a treatment plant I don't know but that is so much water that anything coming from water view would be a very minor skill mount of what is shown there who does regulate that he said yell down who run off issues you said that that was regulated I think it's outside it's a property rights issue in a county in zoning issue thank you. Do you have a copy of the presentation it was made a while ago. That the power point sir we've used it on the. Billers webpage so you downloaded yesterday representative thank you mister chair think you guys were being here I have at just two things. In the letter that was sent. To the department. By the osage. And about their historic preservation written in april have you got as responded to the. In now will say it is my understanding that we reached out to the the tribe and had some conversations with them about their concerns and as far as i'm aware they did make a comment on that permanent but they were not part of the parties that appealed. That permitting decision but it's my understanding that we did have a conversation with them okay conversation but was there any. Has there been anything done to protect what they're asking you to protect. So that letter came from their attorney general's office we had members of our legal team reach out and we did have multiple conversations and we provided them a letter our team reminded of that as we were walking into this meeting and middle middle end of may to capture what we had discussed with them in the position the department took regarding this was that their concerns primarily related to the potential flooding events in things that were related to you storm storm water where I should say uh run off from rain events that were earn related to the permitting action that we had in front of us we also around. I know that we've had more than one discussion with the division our so heritage with their historic preservation program to talk to their archaeologists as well as we explained the breath of our permanent decision or lack of breath of our permanent decision I guess they maybe had some concerns about the inpotential impact from flood waters but it was not directly related to our permit in heritage tonight and the osage nation is as cheap balancer denied appeal the permitting decision. So I agree with the senator chance and that were just pushing things around now things being taken care of my question is what would it take for ADEQ to realize that there are real problems. With our archanisms with the people who pay taxes to put us all here. Why would it take no clapping now because they can't do that and i'm here. What would it take. Without them having to come before us. To be able to get their problems taken care of in your opinio. Yeah. Earlier in our conversation I mentioned the permitting record that we have and the links let's not top permits you keep going around in circles i'm talking reality listen on top paperwork let's not top premiums. Let's talk when people call the authors when they call ADEQ. How. Can they get answers how can they get people who will listen to them. What would it take not talking permits. I'm talking are candidates. What does it take for them to be hurt. We have spoken with the every individual that came here today in prison well I don't know about the the lady that spoke on behalf of mr drinkwater I myself have met with these individual from this community I know others on my team and that with them several folks on my staff have had numerous conversations in pretty end out technical discussions with them on these issues we have and I have charged them with some of this started before I got here bear got back to the department and took on this role of director but i've charged my team with being accessible communicative and doing what we can to answer questions and we have met at length the day of the tornado I was in a room with senator johnson with mister drinkwater with miss and and I believe one or two other folks from this group that we are all sitting in the first floor of the tornadoe came through where slot have an a conversation at length about these and talked about all of these issues and we did our very best to explain our position we encourage them to provide comments on the record which gives them the opportunity to appeal which they have available themselves out and and we fully understand we may not disagree but we understand that's their right. But at our team is task and I have asked them to and I will ask you and i'll ask everyone here if you have a constituent who feels like they call our department and they don't get an answer though they may not like the answer that's the one one thing i'll ask you if they got an answer they didn't like this different whether they didn't get an answer they got blown up you know blown off ignored we want to know that because we want to make that right because you're right these are people in the state of arkansas where the natural state for a reason the dq has a critical role to make sure that we stay the natural state and I can promise you all three hundred and twenty five people or so on our agency care very deeply about that now if we can get better we're going to get better and if you have ways you can help us get better more encourages to do that we want to hear that but I want you to know we have talked at length of these individuals we will continue to as we can were limited somewhere now because of the appeal process it's going on. There's a spin some disagreement here okay mr chair a little more think what I would suggest is an action plan that when people like this come to you who have sewage or run off water whatever you want to call it coming through their communities that affect them that you would have an action plan where the people can get home if it's accounting then have the action plan available if you have over three hundred stay out. I would think we could take care of this without having to do this it's it's not rocket science. It is making an action plan the paper quick push in the paper make a plan and it'll work I promise you i've been a cl for years you get nothing done if you're only pushing paper I know you have to have the paper. But there's got to be an action plan to take care of the people in our stake thank you so johnson. Thank you miss chairman and if if I could ask I want to thank these witnesses I think we can dismiss you for the moment mister mays can you come back up here and in while it pales come and i'd like to take home on their is actually request have made you come back well I wanted to make a comment in the record and then while he was coming up just to clarify something for the committee let me make the same because I don't intend to bring your back up okay and and I appreciate it give a question for the mischairman out of thirty years yet yeah I just want to ask them a question because you don't have one breed you want you now so I have no more for a today because my ten is not to I have you all come back up. But what I like to say is appreciate very much i'll be here appreciate the demeanor in which you've responded to questions very professional appreciate that very much what I would like to give you up to to do though. What I would like you to be up to to do is you you've got the powerpoint presentation I think it'd be beneficial for the committee members having heard you know a both sides but. What i'd like to ask is if you go through that powerpoint presentation anything you'd like to submit to the committee that shows due diligence has been done I think that'd be appropriate and I think that'd be a good free authority doesn't interfere with a thing in the legal field you know what to do but I would give you that option that offer if it takes a week five text two weeks should not apply to the information at least want to give you that chance to provide anything back to the committee that shows these issues. If they've been addressed how they've been addressed in the times they've been addressed as a variable thank you senator and out and again I just this is reminder and how I started when we we got down here is and we want to be here to answer questions because we we think that is that's what we we should do but we do have two administrative appeals current well we have i'm sorry one administrative appeal currently pending in the other permit is of course still in the process so we appreciate that opportunity we may be able to address that because it may have already been addressed sort of in our ordinary course and so with that may take care of that but we will leave it up to large figure out what which can thank you senator eighteen year old safe relief. I think thank you practice okay thank you so here's how we're going to rap it up mister major should come back up and then I want to give the members of the of the public their signed up to speak to determine while mister raises coming up may I read from something that he actually provided to be in it it is sort of a response to the question by representative hudson which is an excellent question by the way but she was asking about the day between the surgeon and storm water there's the case where it talks about the clean water act about point source and then an supreme court decision the court stated a point sources by definition a discernable confined and discrete conveyance. Emphasis added it said that definition might explain that a point source need not be the original source of the pollution it need only convey the pollution to navigable wider switcher in turn defined as the waters the united states examples could include pipes niche is tunnels can't do it objects that do not themselves generate pollutant but merely transform port themselves in this case to enter very good question for representing its both it's there is port solution a pollution and then when it gets into this when you have a big rain washes it into areas that it it does create problems so it's it's actually both so I won't thank you for that question and also thank you crawford for her her questions and come in up misremains I really brought you back I wanted a description of this this ditch the concrete ditch that was. We were he referred to in your your letter which I have enough does but all provided but what the ditch this ditch was a requirement by the agreement between whatever you and see a w back in two thousand seven could you describe it tell us if it appears to be working and how it complicates or are should just say affects the status quo. I'll try a senator this this site is an unusual. A solution to pretty not a problem that came up when missed ferguson bought the property to develop water view of states. And it's it was sensitive because like my mail is the source of drinking water as we all know for central arkansas serves some at four hundred thousand people. And the central arguments are water is very zealous about not getting source of drinking water contaminated. So they are apparently filed a lawsuit water review of state's property and and it that involved a lot of money so what they did was to do that as a solution where any water that would be running off of water view states in two the moment water she had. Would be collected in a ditch that would be constructed just below the southern the boundary of. What have you estates transported through that ditch to some papes and then would be pumped over to the meal bio water shed so it would be basically removing ronald store water run off from the late malmail water she had and transported over into the middle by your water shed which is that they'll bio being the creek or the stream that is in the water she had on the other side of the mountain and it has as I understand it about five separate outlets the the transfer the water from the ditch at various points into the mill by you water share. That's pretty much a description of it yesterday in and it is moving it from the caw jurisdiction over two thousand moment water department that they're provider for the role and areas and of choice action is that not correct you've got a you still got the waterfall from the rain even that is on the mill bio side of the water she had to that you now have added the water that's being transported from the light mobile water she had over to the mill bio so it's increased the amount of this charge the amount of rainfall. Water that goes into the milk which has contributed to it's not necessarily the soul calls of that floating that you saw the picture of it it contributes to the flooding over in that area and that is the subject of a different lawsuit we won't get into that but bring my has nothing to do much with the issue of the permit for the paradise falling waste water treatment but I am correct when I say that. That in two thousand seven ca w through this. Decision and agreement force to developer to create this ditch and divert it away from like malmail and into another water systems area of jurisdiction it was it was designed to transfer the water from one and water she had to the other so that like malma would not contaminate from. Any run off storm water run off from word and water used okay thank you mister roses that was the only thing I really wanted to clarify and I appreciate you come with your day in your testimony mischairman I know you have some people in the audience and want to sit something and i'm I will wrap up and thank everyone and and since they're definitely here in I think they're all my constitutions I certainly want to make an option to speak thank you thank you mister all right we're going to call up a three members of the poke once speaking I want to go back to something I did while ago there was some applause in their audience you kind of caught me off guard but I want to can you get that nipped in the bud in committee meetings we refrain from any public outburst because uh depend which side of an issue you're on it could create an environment that might get away quick so while I react to quickly and say no no no just saying you caught me off garden i'd want to give an explanation that in in these committee meetings we we try to maintain a core where everybody have strong opinion strong differences but the environment remains as positive as possible so please accept that interpretation from the chair first of all I have mister tid and I want to probably just but you're your last name is at home. Hoe. Yes sir would you come on up sir. And that's in fact if fault three of you all want to come at one time you probably. Will achieve have your opportunity to share. And why are you getting your seats from just say thanks for coming we appreciate the public involvement and also the fact that you've sat here all afternoon is a statement within itself so appreciate all sticking around here to give you tests on the okay. And. Ted you are first signed up would you please state your name for the record and you have an organization that you say you represent here which you please state the organization that you're speaking on behalf of and push that little wish I love button right there in front of you and you'll know it's right if it's read there you ok. Thank you mr chairman for this opportunity to be heard and thank you for getting my name right most people don't like it my name is and I am part of the up the coalition that you heard from christia and others are today. II live with my wife patty in rolling. We moved here from northern illinois in twenty twenty one. To be with our daughter here who is a teacher in a little rack. Our move was made easy by the natural beauty and friendliness of the people that we found and rolling. We live at two three zero zero four roland cut off road. That's the next door. To the lat where the proposed wastewater treatment plan. Of paradise valley would be built. When it rains. Water flows from their and to the back of ours. When the rain is heavy the unnamed creek into which the waste water would be discharged from the plant. Overflows and runs partially and to our property. And that would include the discharged waste water to add to any of the ring run off that goes through the creek. The rest continues to flow down stream to our neighbors. The existence of this plant next door to us would destroy the value of our home. The plant together with the relentless source mel that would emanate from the creek. Which would now be an open sewer flowing with newly discharged way swatter. Would destroy our quality of life. Petty and I are in our mid seventies closer really to eighty then seventy. We both have health and mobility issues and we're not going to move no matter what. We communicated all this to eighty each q which ignored us. No one from adequate has interviewed us or come to look at our property. We're just going to be collateral damage and all of this. And we think we deserve better. Thank you. Thank you the school christina next on the list which you name and name and who you represent for the record please thank you for the sapportunity my name is christina center fine i'm the president of pmc pinnacle mountain community coalition I live next door to the paradise valley site and I have had and presidented flooding I moved here in twenty one and that have a lovely property but the problem is is that now i'm getting flooded out I flood on the side of pyradise valley now it comes all the dirt from the construction site comes through washes out my road and I get now since the ditch has been completed I get all the water from water view so now my house is literally a mote I have water on all sides of me and when it floods and my road gets swashed out I can't walk the property it's getting marchy it's it's really a a terrible concern and thank you for being able to talk about this but I also wanted to make a couple of rebottles to work you had said one thing was was that the osage did attempt to appeal but they didn't meet the deadline and they didn't have any legal representation in little rock. Two about the comments. Not all of them were answered um they had a a problem with their spam filter so people with a certain name couldn't get a response if it I don't know how to explain it in the other way but there were a lot of number of people who weren't able to get their comment in and then the comment the response about lowering the stream standard was essentially no we aren't lowering the stream standard and they did they are planning on doing that. Number three eighty ish's storm water permits they mandated paradise valley developer to resize his detention part so to to wash their hands if the storm water run of essentially is dereliction of duty so they really haven't addressed the problem and thank you so much for this opportunity to speak and the day of which you please your name and total or who affiliate with record please yes my name is dale mcdaniel i'm with the pmc. I own some of the land down in the bow we have been out in rolling since nineteen eighty nine litting on rolling cut off road. Since the diversion ditch has been put in I have seen places flowed over rolling cut off that we have never seen since nineteen eighty nine. Since he is the the land has been slipped off where the paradise valley is warning to be i've also never seen. Water come across the road and since nineteen eighty nine and it came all calls in a major way. We use our land for multi purpose the activities hunting. Hanging out um. And I can tell you this time of your right now especially. 3-4 months at the year the boundaries basically I mean you sell help even the mode was so dry that it was cracking up and stuff like that. And then there's also times of the year where it's so high that it's even upon the osage. A barrier grounds. And whenever we did bring the archaeologist out there we've had two or three different archaeologies out there not only where they err speedless in what they saw but they cannot believe the amount that they are they said that. Where these burials are is the largest. That they know of. And they were talking directly with the osage and then other alcologists as well. And then another when his advert had not had a chance to speak with the advantage restaurant speaking me at all in any way cheap passion form though as well tell me i'll thank you for letting us come and speak and appreciate your get a question for your base north you just said. You've you've seen the powerpoint presentation yet to picture the water of eroda which one of the representatives pointed that out well go. Even you been in that area how long since nineteen eighty nine so since then there's been a hundred year flood I believe yes correct was water over the road. No spent hundred your flood net never ever ever had a sim water. That happened. Prior to prior to yes. Previously we we would have looked very large rainfalls the ditches would get fall but we have never seen that. The give maybe a little more than example one of my very good friends has ten acres that's just down from where the the. Paradise valley is wanting to be he actually derg a pine that was a I think it was like tin that 10-12 deep and it was right at three course of an account and we were thanking is probably going to take you know a minute maybe two to fill up and as I was actually in digging peers for his his dark it started to sprinkle so I said list you get out of here because I don't know if I could be able to get my back home out of here and that night that very night it filled up that complete pawn and actually overflowed it. Then this was when august. Bahm I thought slicking of the land because it was young forced if you add as you normal timber area and there's a white claim completely and I mean i'm not an engineer in architecturing that other stuff. Commented to tell you that that was when becoming down that hill pretty good. Another's litigation surrounding this maybe you don't know the answer this question but. The residents had had been and i'll use ordered virtually affected. Or yelling litigation against the developer for civil action for. Um. The effects of of that development other than the pmc night. But it but pmc against the developer against eighty i'm just asking. The. And they they have it there's a case against the developer and his as llcs. Do anything else I would like to mention. Hey I know to serious subject but when I ask you a third what part of northern illinois from. I'm a from quite a bit north of the chicago area a little town called jansburg which is just outside of mechanically. I was born raged and drained ill noise so I real question to you that is going to determine how I move forward with this country the curbs are white sucks white sucks guard your dead okay all right I have nobody else on this we've we've heard this thoroughly we will we well um. Let's just leave it on the table for now for possible future discussion we appreciate charles being here today and everybody that has waiting on this I have no other there is no other new business come before the committee appreciate everybody that stuck around today especially on behalf of our citizens that had chance to come here and voice their opinion okay all right and we're served here's nor the business right. All right no other business before we are adjourned thank you.