Education Committee- House

would please stand and So Our members, you know, the uh, the calendar just to go over it for the audience, uh, we're hearing 5 bills this morning we'll be hearing, uh, HB 1384 by Representative Johnson. Uh, SB 142 as amended by uh Representative Eubanks and Senator D's, uh, then we'll hear SB 59. HR 1027 and HB 1144 if you would like to speak on any bill, there's a sign up sheet that is uh in the hallway and our staff will pull that here momentarily, uh, to bring up here. So if you would like to speak on a bill, please go ahead and make sure you do that so that we can get your name on the list. Uh, so we're gonna begin this morning with uh Representative Lee Johnson, HB 1384. Representative Johnson, if you would please introduce yourself for the record and you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Committee, Representative Lee Johnson, District 47, um, members, uh, in 2019 we passed the legislation to create a funding mechanism for graduate medical education, as you probably know, graduate medical education is also referred to as residency training programs, fellowship programs. This is post graduation training for physicians, um, we passed that legislation in 2019. It took us a little while to secure some funding. Uh, funding came through in this past session, um, because. of the time lapse that had occurred between the time we passed this bill and now some of the language in the bill was outdated. Additionally, we were able to assemble the board for the first time. There had been no need to assemble the board before we had money. After we assembled the board, the board put out some rules for public comment. This bill is just cleaning up some language to reflect. Change in terminology and also to reflect the comments that were received during the rules so that we can more effectively distribute the money to make sure that we're expanding as intended both residency and fellowship programs in the state of Arkansas, and I'd be happy to answer any questions on the bill if there. Thank you, Representative Johnson. Representative Johnson has presented the bill or the questions by the committee. So no questions. I don't believe we have anyone signed up to speak on the bill, Representative Johnson, would you like to close your bill? I'm closed for my bill. Thank you, Mr. Represent Johnson's closed for a bill. We have a motion on the table from Representative Garner, uh, DuPass. Is there any discussion on the motion? See no discussion on the motion. All in favor say aye. All opposed. Congratulations Reverend Johnson, your bill is passed. Thank you. Thank you all. Committee moving on, rep we will recognize uh representative Eubanks to present an amendment to SB 142 Representative Eubanks, you are recognized, present your amendment. Representative Eubank's District 46. I have an amendment that it's being handed out. I'll wait till. You get it, maybe you have a chance to look over it real quick. The amendment Contains 3 items. Excuse me, uh, Representative Shepherd. After we passed this bill, was reading through it over the weekend and uh being the lawyer that he is, he recognized that in the definition of personal devices, he was afraid that it may inadvertently include the devices that the school provides to the student. So in order to prevent that from being a problem, we amended it, correcting that issue. Also, uh, At the same time, he had listened to the testimony here and with regard to the uh special events and allowing students to possibly be able to use them. We've we've included in the language that the school may allow that to take place, uh, in accordance with rules and regs promulgated by the department. And uh With regard to that one, I had a, I had a parent uh contact me and actually felt like that what you're gonna find out when the students get their phone that they may just stay on it and not pay attention to whatever the special event is, but the schools can, you know, make adjustments if they need to, if they see that's the case, uh, they don't have to allow it. So, anyway. And the last thing was that was brought up was this, uh, two-factor authentication for students with regard to taking concurrent credit. That's the essence of the amendment. I would appreciate a good vote on the amendment. Reser Eubanks has presented his amendment or the questions on the amendment. See no questions, we have a motion do pass of the amendment, or sorry, adopt the amendment, my apologies. Thank you, Kristen. We have a motion to adopt the amendment. Is there any discussion on the motion? All in favor say aye. I posed. Congratulations, your me has been adopted. You're now recognized to present SB 142 as amended. Well, members, nothing else has changed in the bill that you passed out last week, and I think if uh Representative Mayberry was here, she would be voting in favor of this one with the changes that we would, uh, that we've made, so I'd appreciate a good vote. Are there questions from the committee for Representative Eubanks? See no questions. We do have one audience member signed up to speak on the bill, um. Miss Carol Egan You available. You're recognized if you would please introduce yourself for the record and then you recognize to speak again. Thanks. I'm Carol Lee and I'm here as an individual and I missed the first meeting, so I apologize that my comments are delayed and I can tell. The, the room is, uh, we know where this is gonna end up, right? But anyway, I wanted you all to think about this a little bit, and here are some questions from a mom who had her kids educated in public school and uh I just want to make sure we're thinking these things through. That my first question is, do the schools do our schools feel like they do not have the authority to address The issues with cell phones and digital equipment. Are they not empowered to address these issues without having, oops sorry, having legislation to do it. And if, if not, why not? Why are laptops and tablets included. That is an easy thing to set up so they they don't have access to Wi Fi and it as a parent whose kids got through college on their laptops, um, I and not school, uh, Chromebooks, um, having access and being able to take notes and, and do things during the school day that you take home with you. Um, that's, that's kind of critical to your success, is it not? Um And, and then why are we limiting this to children in public schools and open enrollment charter schools, why is any school accepting state funding, not subject to this. Legislation Why are we accepting out private schools who are receiving state funding that That sort of rings a little bit classist to me. So, in fact, And I excuse me, but I think this bill smacks of a punishment. To our schoolchildren that we're taking away something that was a big deal for them to get and we're denying them access to it. I can't believe we can't find a better way to monitor their usage of cell phones. Um, and my final question is, is there any evidence at all? Anywhere that denying access to current technology. Will improve the results of our or any other school system. Is there any evidence of this? I'm that That's my only remarks. Thank you for your testimony, Ms. Egan. Are there questions by the committee? See no questions. Thank you for your time. So no one else to speak on the bill. Representative Eubanks, you are recognized to close for your bill. As omitted. With regard to whether the schools are receiving this money through these ESAs are not actually, uh, the school doesn't receive the money the student does. And so, where, whether you believe that splitting hairs or not, that is the facts of the matter. Uh, as far as evidence as to whether This improves results, I think, uh, We had that from the schools that participated in the pilot program. They, you know, they reported, they had better attendance, they had uh less issues with fights, with uh, Boeing. And they saw Children and students actually interacting with each other. And see, that was one of the main things, two things I wanted to do with this bill. One, to eliminate the distraction that students have in schools so they can actually learn, and the other one to improve the socialization of our children because I think Everybody can recognize that everybody walks around with these and nobody's having conversations anymore, and I think that's a person, a personal, uh, uh, That's something that improves the outcomes of students. And so, I'd appreciate a good vote. Representatives banks has closed for his bill as amended, are there um is there a motion on the table there's a motion from Representative Meeks to Du pass as amended. Is there any discussion on the motion? Uh, seen no discussion, I would like to offer just one comment relative to uh what you represented Eubank said about about data and, and the question that was mentioned, I would encourage everyone, uh, if you haven't had a chance to go pick up Doctor Jonathan Height's book, which has been much discussed in this committee and otherwise, uh, frankly across the world, uh, the anxious generation, it is a great resource, uh, that is not a partisan resource but a very analytical resource on uh the impacts of technology, particularly with our kids' school age, uh, gives some very glaring and shocking. data relative to that, so I'd encourage everyone to take a look at that should you have questions on, on, uh, on this concept, uh, so with a motion do pass as a minute on the table, all in favor say aye. All opposed. Congratulations, Representative Eubanks, your bill has passed as members, we will, I believe we're waiting on an amendment for SB 59, so represent Cozart, I recognize you to present HR 1027. If you would please recognize or introduce yourself for the record and then your record. Thank you Mr. Chair, Bruce Cozart, District 91, uh, this bill, HR. 1027 is brought to me by the Southern Regional Education Board. This is something they're doing across all the 16 states that are on the uh southern regional Education Board system and what this is to express, I'll just kind of shorten it up instead of reading this whole bill to you. It's, it's a resolution, but I'll just kind of give you the gist of what it does. It's uh to support crisis recovery networks, and it's, you know, natural disasters, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, schools, shooting events, and, and, you know, in the course of every day. There's something going on in most states so that's happening so what this is, they're looking to uh support our uh counselors because most rural schools and post-secondary schools do not have enough counselors, uh, to handle situations when those happen in your schools and recovery efforts and crisis to happen these in most of these areas they're, they're lacking on it. So basically what the uh uh Southern Regional Board is to uh collaboration with the governor's office and the state agencies around local. schools, they want to put together a um. process recovery sport network that were in the cost of the travel for counselors during the training and deployment process that they will deploy those across those states to help with those issues. So this will be something that will come through the SRB, uh, our state will be involved with it as we already are. We, uh, help with SRAB, so that's basically what this is. They're gonna put a crisis recovery network together and fund them for their travels. I'll take any questions. Representative Cozart has presented his resolution or the questions on the resolution. Representative McGruder, you're recognized. I may have missed this, but who are the members of this crisis recovery team was that just established by the SREB we each stayed in the 6 or 16 states and multi Southern states have members of this board. I'm a member of it, uh, Deanne's a member, uh, Sonia is a member, uh, Brian Evans was the one on the executive board uh there are many, uh, they're pointed, some of them appointed by the governor of each state and so, uh, then, then, then, and if you're interested in it, you could probably be a. Uh, member of the LAC which is, uh, uh, it's not an executive board, but thank you. Seeing no additional questions by the committee, Representative. Cozart, we'd like to close for your bill. I am closed. Cozart is closed for his bill. Do we have a motion? We have a motion to pass from Representative Vaut. Is there any discussion on the motion? No see no discussion on the motion. All in favor say aye. All oppose. Congratulations Reson Cozart, your resolution is passed. Members, we're gonna move on to SB 59, but I'm going to take a little bit of latitude and recess for just a moment. We're waiting on an amendment, uh, to come back for, uh, this bill, and since uh the uh amazing senator dismay has joined us. Uh, I wanna make sure we're, uh, conscientious of his time to come down to this end, so we're going to take just a brief recess uh while the amendment is on the way over here and we'll be back here in just a couple minutes. House education will stand in recess. On the way, OK. Yeah. Well we have me. All right, give me it passed out. Give it a whack. OK. OK. She sees a quorum House Education will come back to order. Members, we are now going to hear SB 59, Senator dismaying and Representative Gramlich. Uh, there is an amendment being passed out by Kristen. So let's take a look at that amendment. I believe we're just adding co-sponsors, uh, but I'll let you explain that. So Representative Graham, you are recognized thank you so much, yeah, so um there was a there was a co-sponsor issue where some people were put on who didn't want to be on and there was an ordering issue, uh, so I just want to get that fixed to uh make sure everyone's uh needs were met. Which is what we're gonna be talking about today. Representative Grandmaca presented his amendment are the questions on the amendment. See no questions surfacing, would you like to close your amendment? I'm closed. There are some grandmas closed for a moment, we have a motion to adopt the amendment by Representative Painter. Discussion on the motion, see no discussion, all in favor say aye. I'll pose Representative Grandma, congratulations, your amendment has passed. You're now recognized to present SB 59 as mended. Thank you so much. um. I'm just gonna rattle off a few stats for you real quick. Um, 1 in 4 are Kansan children, uh, struggle with hunger. Arkansas is ranked number one in food insecurity. 64% of Arkansas students are eligible for free and reduced price meals. I work at a school that's in the upper 80s and we used to be in the upper 90s. Many students who don't qualify for free meals aren't able to pay. I've handed out, uh, hadn't handed out papers to students of their debts and upwards of $1100. I, I see, I see, I see food insecurity in my school, every day. Um, I don't know a teacher who doesn't keep crackers or fruit or snacks for their children, um, because they came to school late or um a few years ago, we didn't do free breakfast in Fort Smith, but we've started to do that, um, but I, I for a long time would keep things for kids who came in late to make sure they had something to eat, because if a kid is hungry, they're not going to learn. First thing they're going to do is they're going to put their head down and they're just gonna, they're just gonna sit and try to try their ignore their stomach and wait till lunch. I've seen it happen every day. Um, food insecurity in the state's a real thing. Um, I see it in the urban areas. I know it happens in the rural areas. I know plenty of kids. Uh, just as a, I was thinking about closing on this, but I want to start with this, um. I had 2 students came in to me this year in the fall. Um, I teach 6th, 7th, 8th grade. There were 7th graders. I had both the students before. The first thing they did, they came up to me and they said, hey, Mr. Gramlich. I said, Hey, what's going on? Um, you know, oh, not much. I'm just, I'm just really happy to be back at school. So, hey, why is that, man? Well, I just, I know I'm gonna be able to eat here. I don't, I don't, food's kind of hard to come by at my house. I want to make sure that every kid gets at least one free meal a day, and my goal is to. I want to make sure every kid, if they come to my school gets fed so that they can learn and achieve at the highest levels. I'd be happy to answer any questions. First, Senator dismay you anything to add? Yeah, and, and really we were talking about a little bit before, um. There's not a person at this table does does not want to increase the outcomes for our kids that are coming through the public school system. Like if I ask you to raise your hand every single one of you would raise your hand that we want no matter at what what learning level they're at. We want to increase their outcomes and so it was pretty interesting. I didn't think I was going to have time to go, but we had the governor from Oklahoma come to Harding last week and one of the things they've implemented there and one of the things that Harding wants to implement is the science of hope. And so in in Oklahoma that they're doing that at every level they can possibly do that in state government. They're also uh encouraging it to be done in their local businesses and it is very fascinating and it is at its most basic level, uh, common sense, but one of the things that was interesting, they're kind of running through the full cycle and like I said, I'll get to the point on outcomes, um. But as they're talking about it, if you think about willpower, so each one of us has a a limited reserve of willpower that we're able to utilize throughout the day, right? Some people have more willpower than others. It depends what your mindset is that we'll talk a little bit about if you're in an avoidant situation, which you're just trying to get by or if you're in an achievement situation if you're in an avoidance situation you burn through your willpower a lot faster than someone that's an achievement mindset and again all of us have different levels of willpower, but the truth for all of us. is that it is limited. So again, by the end of the day, you know, if you're doing what you need to do, you've worked and burned through all the willpower that you have. And like I said, so the fascinating part to me is, is we're having this conversation about nutrition, they bring up nutrition. And so one of the most direct correlations to the amount of willpower that you are able to have is nutrition, glucose, in particular, but nutrition. And I thought What a message. Again, we keep talking about what we do at public schools for our kids and I know that and I'll be happy to take questions on this. I know there's some folks that are generally opposed because of the intrusion or on some of the arguments we'll get to him if you want, but I don't even fully understand, but we're willing to give kids laptops and paper and books and all of the other things that they need to be successful. None of those things matter if they don't have the willpower to, to reach the outcome that we would want to have with them. And so again, that whole thing was, I was, I felt fortunate that I was able to go. I think it is such a direct. Impact on this bill and even my perception of what we were talking about, uh, again, I look forward to learning more about it, but I, it was just a, I think a good anecdote for members of this committee and as we're talking about, you know, what is exactly that we're doing with this free breakfast? Well, I mean, I think we're setting at least a base reserve of willpower for the kids to be able to start their day on the right foot and hopefully utilize all the rest of the tools that we have no problem providing in a successful way. Again, thank you for your time. Representative Grahamlich and Senator Dima have presented the bill the questions by the committee, uh, Meeks, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Cha. I just wondering, um, is there any guidelines on what that breakfast should be. I know in the past, you know, the federal government has said, you know, school luncheons we're supposed to meet certain criteria and half that food ended up being thrown away just because the kids didn't, didn't like it. Um, so can you talk about, you know, is there any specifications on what these breakfasts are supposed to look like. And then my, my second question is, um, can you talk about the, the time as far as fitting that in the school day in the morning about how that would be handled with. buses and logistics and so forth. Yeah, as far as the cost and being wasted, I mean, this has to be a requested breakfast. This isn't something, I mean, it's in the bill that it be requested by the students, so it's not going to be set on their desks, just to be thrown at a later time. Um, I think, uh, as far as nutrition levels, I think that's a, I think the districts can answer that, but that is a requirement that's already in place and you're seeing districts become a little bit more innovative, uh, to be able to put the nutrition in something so I know it's Cersei, uh, public schools they partnered and have a smoothie program that is incredibly popular, um, and so I think you'll see some other districts, maybe adopt that type of program. So they're they're getting the biggest bang for their buck in a, uh, you know, easy to provide uh meal, breakfast meal. So and the dollar amount as far as the cap, it's based at the federal reimbursement, so this isn't, you know, something that, you know, the district team just um. kind of do as they see fit, there will be a dollar limit that would be in place. Um, I would add on to your second part. Uh, I mean, there's a lot of districts who already provide some sort of breakfast for you or not, um, I know my district, Fort Smith provides a free breakfast, and there's already, you know, a system in place that starts at 7:30. There's a teacher there to, you know, um, watch the kids as they eat, make sure that everything's going well there, um, so I mean a lot of that's already set up in place and um to, to, to, to quote, you know, a, uh, the CFO of my district, you know, kids are already, if they come and ask for food, we already give them food, um, and if the cost is. recouped, we already eat that cost anyways at the district level, so, um, pun intended, so, uh, that's already set up. Or send a column you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you, Representative Gramlich and Senator I appreciate your kind of personal. Stories of experiences that you were willing to share from the, from the classroom and Um Kind of framing our minds of uh the, you know, the problem that we're trying to solve here. I think a lot of my questions come from, um, just kind of understanding of from the fund perspective maybe how we got here. Can you, if you don't mind, uh, either one of you kind of walking us through, I think there's some legislation last year on the way that was set up and then maybe how that ties in with the medical marijuana money and kind of how you see. That looking like in yeah maybe worst case, best case scenarios moving forward. Yeah, so previously we had designated the medical marijuana dollars to fund the NCI program at UAMS, uh, the General Assembly last session made that a priority and fully funded NCI so that freed up the amounts of money that were uh currently being collected for medical marijuana. We will have to re-up that this year with a vote of the legislature. It's not going to be a new tax. It's just the continuation one we'll probably go ahead and ask to remove. the dates that are on there altogether so we don't revisit that every 2 years. Uh, but right now there's roughly, I think 20 million that's going to go into that fund. It is dedicated for, uh, food insecurity issues and also health care needs, uh, the remaining funds, I think have already been attributed to the GME program, uh, several of you, I think in this on the table probably have uh Institutions that will utilize those dollars, but moving forward with 2526, it would be just for, uh, the, uh, summer EBT program that the governor signed on to that would be the first priority, uh, because funds are, are limited, but we do believe there's enough, uh, being raised each year to fully fund. The second would be the uh The state's commitment to pay for the remaining portion for reduced lunches and then the third would be this, the, the universal free breakfast, um, and so that that would be the prioritization and one thing to keep in mind there are federal funds that help uh with each one of those, those, that request and, and that requirement would not go away. This would be to supplement on the backside of whatever would be remaining to be needed. And I would add on, um, I listened to a little bit of the uh Senate. conversation and there was concern that, you know, fed these federal free and reduced lunch applications would go down and then the state would end up having to pay more, um, I can say that there, there are funding cliffs associated with how much many dollars a student gets based on the number of free and reduced lunch, you know, eligible individuals are in the school and so the districts are still going to do everything they can to make sure uh that they uh look as poor as they are to get as much money as they can, so that they're still gonna dig and they're gonna get as many free and reduced lunch applications in. Thank you. I was um very helpful. Uh To clarify on the. You know, if the legislature so wills it in the future on the. Can you say what you said again on the continuation part specifically I think it was on the medical marijuana so that maybe we don't have to keep coming back. Yeah, we set it up, and it's been voted on since medical marijuana passed by the voters to kind of re up the privilege tax that's there every 2 years, and that was really as an oversight, uh, partially because we didn't have the parameters that are set forth in this bill for how those funds would be utilized. It would require be a requirement to look every year. Uh, the governor was, I, I think, I don't want to speak for, but I think she was fairly adamant that we prioritize how those funds are used and they'd be used in this way, um that was something honestly was glad to see, uh, one thing to keep in mind this is not general revenue, this is a separate pot of money and and again I can't think of a better cause to utilize it for. If I share McKenzie, you recognize for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I want to begin by saying I appreciate this bill, um, it. Making sure that kids have food in their stomachs is the only way that we can guarantee achievement. I do have a question because you mentioned it just now and online, so page 3 line 12. The, the, this is gonna be a rolling question, so I apologize in advance, but the food insecurity fund shall consist of general revenues authorized by law. So I'm, I'm all for, you know, the devil's money paying for the Lord's work, um, and using that excise tax to help fund this and backfill it, and I guess I can understand in my mind why this is a new fund that's a food insecurity fund as opposed to a nutrition fund that's not attached to the GME and not attached to uh free and reduced because it's a patchwork and I understand we're trying to backfill and grade out between those individual federal programs. I do have a concern when it comes to General revenues authorized by law, is that a is that a template or stakeholder or or placeholder language for the future or their general revenues money, general revenue money is currently going to be appropriated into this food insecurity fund that isn't the excise tax from medical marijuana sales. I mean if this body chose to do something else, it could, but it would require an act by this legislature, uh, you know, so if we had a restricted reserve account for, you know, for example, that accumulated because of general revenues that we had attributed, I think, I think that's what it's speaking to or would speak to, uh, but, but in general it would require an action by us and that is not foreseen to be a need at this point, OK. All right, thank you. Or some duke you recognize for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you both for bringing this and especially thank you for your heart and concern for kids. I don't think anyone serves on House Education Committee or Senate committee that doesn't have a genuine heart and concern for children, we put it in an awful lot of hours and awful lot of time. So, that being said, I, I wanted to say that I guess because we often have different approaches to things. And so, but that doesn't diminish people's heart or concern for children, and I think that needs to just kind of be out there. So my question is, Uh, just clarification, so this bill adds to the groups that already received this free and reduced lunch, breakfast, children who already received. So this is the portion of children who do not qualify for that, and I granted, I understand that there's some that don't turn their forms in. I do recognize that. But also the children who do not qualify for those categories now is paying for their breakfast as well. Is that correct? Correct, it would be anyone that opts to. You know, to to have a breakfast, yes. And then the 14.7 that is every year. Estimation or that's correct. I think that's a fairly conservative number. There's not a lot of data out there to pull from on selection aside from the fact that we did do this through the pandemic because federal monies were made available for this, uh, but, but yes, that is a conservative investment. And Following up with what he said, that's coming out of and I'm kind of new to all the funds even though I'm technically not a freshman anymore, um, coming out of the marijuana is where that's expected to come from each and every year. Those monies are directed to go into this fund, so there's a collection that's happening. Those will be directed to go in this fund and it would be, uh, again, this lays out the priority of how those funds are to be expended. Are the additional questions about the committee? Seeing no additional questions we do have one person signed up to speak for the bill. Amanda West, you're good. Uh, she's gonna pass, so Representative Granick, would you like to close for your bill? Um, I'm close for my bill and I just want to thank you all for the consideration for uh what you're gonna be doing for our Arkansas kids today. Uh, I appreciate a good vote. Or some gramma has closed for SB 59. Uh, we have a motion on the table, uh, do pass as amended. From Representative Vault is uh quite sorry is there discussion on the motion? Uh, I do have a discussion. I didn't have a question and I didn't, uh, so I didn't want to pose it as a question, but, uh, I 100% support this, so in my district, District 4, we do have uh free breakfast and uh we have noticed a major benefit from it. I'm gonna read you something from uh our uh one of my, um, uh, superintendents is Jamie Jones over in Cotter. Breakfast provides the body with glucose, which is essential for brain function, which leads to better concentration and memory, skipping breakfast can contribute to mood swings and irritability and morning fatigue. Which hampers learning and can cause discipline issues. Some families have food insecurity, which we try to alleviate. Studies have shown kids' performance on standardized testing in vocabulary, math, mental task, and spelling. And additionally, skipping breakfast can cause high blood sugar, increased blood sugar abnormal, cholesterol levels and extra fat. These increases the risk of diabetes, stroke, and heart disease. Um, uh, Mr. Jones also mentioned that he was a new diabetic, and that was information that came right from his doctor, so I think we're, we're doing good things with this. It's a great bill. I appreciate you all, uh, bringing it to us, and, uh, I know that this will make a positive impact. Thank you. Representative Duke you recognized for discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, Goodness, um, it's hard as someone who, uh, and like all the members here, you work with kids a lot to feel like you're voting against something that. Everyone's telling you it's really good for kids and obviously feeding children is a really important thing, but we also come down here with beliefs with things that our voters have kind of um elected us values elected us to. align with and that looks different sometimes because we're all in different districts and our people are different and in my district I have rural and I have midsize and then I have a large uh school and so I'm saying that because just because our votes are different here doesn't necessarily mean we all don't want the same thing. We just all look at different ways to get to that end game. I have a hard time with this 11 because the expense, not because of feeding kids, um, but the approach in which we take to do that and also because of the group that were enlarging. that too and, um, that causes me some concerns. It's a little hard for me to ask some of the other members of my constituency to pay for. this particular pocket of students and so I do appreciate representative, and I don't know if it's out of order to say that or not. I do represent the folks that have brought this. I know their heart. I know their care for kids and then my fellow members who I feel quite confident are going to vote differently than me, and I respect that as well, but I have tried down here to stay true to what I believe my voters want and what I think are the principles that sent me down here. And so, um, I'm not going to be able to support this one. In this instance, but I absolutely do support our children. I just want to find our believe there are different approaches sometimes to answering these problems and these questions, but I am thankful to serve with a lot of legislators who have such a dedicated heart to their students. So for that, those reasons, um, I will be voting no. Representative Kozar, you recognized for discussion. Mr. Chair. Well, I agree with what Representative Nazrico said. I mean, we've heard that for many, many years in this committee, and we've tried 2 or 3 times to figure out a better way to feed our kids over those years and it's been hard, you know, we've we've hit a lot of roadblocks we've, we've found that the money wasn't there, we couldn't do it. We have a lot of schools across our state that do this and over the years that has been a priority for a lot of them to do this, and I agree if you know, if you don't believe this is, I mean, you believe it's good. But if your district won't support that for you, it's, it's that's what you have to do and I don't, I'm not gonna try to convince you even though I'd like to see you vote yes and I will be voting yes, but uh I believe this is a great thing. This will make uh it'd be a major change in life for some of these kids that uh come to school hungry, uh, stay hungry, they go home hungry and they might not get another meal till they get back the next day, so I'm a definitely yes on this. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Seeing no additional discussion, Representative Nazarenko. Sorry, I did, I did want to just add this as well, uh, in support of as well. So our, our schools in my area, they, they struggle right now with the, the cost of living has kind of gone up. The price, you know, everybody's making a little bit more and so then that's kind of throwing the numbers off, skewing them, so they're even willing to, the school believes in it so much that they're willing to use some of our maintenance funds from school to cover a difference when they don't have enough to cover it, they're willing to throw that in. That's how. strongly that school believes that it's making a positive impact, and I myself last year during the school year, uh, I went, uh, during the preschool week or free school breakfast week and served breakfast to the students at two different times over at Yellowville Summit, and it is, it is great to see all the kids being able to go through. Nobody's being looked at funny because they're getting a free breakfast. They're all the same. It's an equal playing field, and I know that they're getting their food and then they're able to go concentrate in school. So 100% support. it. Members, thank you for the discussion, seeing no additional discussion, we have a motion on the table to do pass as amended, all in favor say aye. All hos. Congratulations, Representative Graham Linen dismaying your bill has passed as amended. Thank you, Chair. Thank you committee. Thank you for supporting Arkansas families and Arkansas schools. Members move on to our final bill today. Representative Wootton, HB 1144 representative you are recognized if you would please introduce yourself and then you recognize to present your bill. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, committee members. First of all, let me, let me say this is not intended in any way to be an attack on learns or to discredit learns. is simply a matter of accountability, parental. Empowerment, if you will, for parents to be able to know how their schools are performing, whether they be public or private, they're entitled to be able to look at it. What brought this to my attention was in many of you probably read the article in the paper that listed the test scores and the testing and different things, uh, several months ago. Well, when I went down that list, and I looked at it, there were, there were half of the private schools did not respond in any way. There was none of uh NA or they just were blank. And I just feel like that parents both in private and in public. those that are in public have a right to know exactly what the test scores are and in private schools. And the parents in private schools have a right to know what the, the public school scores might be. And let me, let me add to that. That private schools And this is not an attack. It's just a fact. That is and I'm trying my best not to use my coaching voice, Coach McGruder. My granddaughter told me one time we were having a discussion and she said, Jimmy, she calls me Jimmy. She says, Jimmy, you, you, you're using your coaching boys. So I apologize, but let, let me say that, that this is not an attack on learn. It's simply a parental ride to be able to know in private schools, uh, they do not accept all who come now they'll tell you that they do because I had a board member of one of the larger private schools in the state said, oh no, you're wrong. We don't, we don't turn anybody. Now. I said, you accept everyone that comes. Well, we, we review their grade point average and their ACT scores and, and if they don't, we don't think they can matriculate at the level that our school requires, then we'll share that with. And I thought for just a minute, and I thought, well, how many of them come after you share that with them. Well, none of them. Well, it's the same thing. It's just a subterfuge, if you will, as to how they turn them down. But they have a right to know this bill just simply says an act to require a participating school under the Arkansas Children's Education Freedom Account program to comply with the same statutory and Department of Education reporting requirements to which schools are subject and for other purposes. It just simply requires that the private schools respond. And to my knowledge, and um, there may be in somewhere in there, but there's no uh penalty if they do not. This bill has a penalty that they cannot accept the money. Now You know, you can, you can say. Whatever you want to about how the money gets to the school. Well, it goes, you know, some say it goes to the parents, and then the parents send it to the school. And we're not directly involved, so we shouldn't tie any strings to it. This is not tying strings to it. Everybody likes to call on that, uh, and use that phrase, we, we won't tie any strings to the money, but let me share it with you. That's a accountability. Responding to reporting and testing and so the parents here again, this is about parents being able to look. And see what test scores are. It's being able to look and see what daily attendance is in a private school. This is not asking them to do anything other than report. And the requirements, this in private the public schools have to Comply with, and they must do it. And they have to do it. In the store right thing to do. Accountability. For taxpayers' money is what it's all about. Now You'll just approved the bill. For Breakfast feed Young people. And I'm here to tell you that until we deal with poverty in this state. We're going to continue to have problems. And a lot of the low scores that we're seeing in public schools and not necessarily their fault. At all. It's not the learning. It's not the process of teaching in the classroom. It's the home. In a smoother social ills and social problems. So what we're, what I'm asking and what a multitude of people that have contacted me as a result of introducing this bill. have said, look, It's fair. It simply and if anything is needed in government today is to be fair. To be treated fair. So I'll be happy to answer any questions. Our attempt to answer any questions. But I want you to keep in mind. Two things. One, That this bill I just parental involvement so that they can know both clubs are private. And secondly, it's accountability. The private schools. Have a need. For accountability. And now that they're taking the money. Tax money that's given to them. For education. They have a responsibility to let the taxpayers know. That students are performing. At what level? And parents have arrived to be able to look. So this is simply a parental empowerment, common sense, Bill, if you will. And all I ask of you is the fact to give us a new pass. And let the membership of the house, have an opportunity to vote. for Level playing field. That you've given to every other bill that deals with learns. You've let them all, you've given due pass and some of you didn't agree with all that. And I know that to be a fact, so I'm just asking for a due pass vote on this and to let it go before the full house and let them determine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, committee. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Representative Wooten. Representative Wootton has presented his bill or the questions by the committee? Orson makes you recognize for a question. name is, um, according to the bill, it says that it'll comply with reporting requirements under subdivision A 14A, uh, with a 90 days. Uh, can you give us a list of what reports would be required from those schools should this be adopted? Well, I can't give you a total list of them. Well, I can tell you that we the test scores that are taken and reported to he It would be daily the average attendance. It would be the number of meals that they feed or tea and and in in the uh Cafeteria, uh, like the, the free breakfast and that type thing, but it would be, uh, any, any report. That's required. And if we're acquiring of a, of a public school, then. What, why, why not have private schools report too. And follow up is, so, and then what would the, so we, we require this report to be presented to, I guess, ADE, um, what would then ADE be required to do with that report? Why would they would evaluate it along with the rest of whatever they do with other reports. OK. Vice Chairman McKenzie, you recognize for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So Representative Wooten, uh, You made a lot of comments about this bill representing fairness, you know, making sure we have fairness and equity across the process. What happens if a public school fails to comply with any of the reporting requirements under sub under subdivision A 14A. Are you aware of any of the What what punitive responses exist. I don't know of any punitive in necessary other than their remind them and, and, and, and I'm glad that's a good question. I'm glad you asked that. Uh, I, I don't know of any follow up, and then they may have done it. But I don't know of any follow up of the ADE in regards to the fact that over half of the private schools didn't report on the testing itself. OK Um May have something to do with another question down the line, but, uh How can we say this bill promotes fairness? I honestly, I mean, in earnest, how can we say this bill promotes fairness when we're not sure of what occurs when public schools don't or fail to comply with a 14A. I think it's more of a It's a, you're hopeful that this promotes fairness or you believe that it promotes fairness, but in reality this is. If a private school becomes ineligible to participate in an education freedom account, that's the death penalty. You're, you're a high school football coach. That term should be familiar to you that what you're saying is that then these schools have No opportunity for you, you've not clearly outlined what the recourse is for the the private schools if they fail to comply with these rules. It just is they're no longer able to participate. And if the bill is to promote fairness or parity. And we have a, you know, the sponsor bill has doesn't understand what, what punitively occurs to public schools if they don't comply. But to that end, we're, we're creating disparity with private schools who don't comply with the same rules under the subsection, wouldn't you agree? I think to answer your question about fairness, um. If If we approve. Rules That the state has. Then they're applicable. To private schools that accept the money. Now, if they don't accept funding and they don't take the vouchers, then this law does not apply to them. So from a fairness standpoint, and, and ADE is required. To fulfill the rules and regulations that they have on public schools. And they send the money. Whether, regardless of how it gets there, they send the money. Either through the parents or through the children or whatever. Um So, they could have or should have the ability to apply the same rules and regulations that they applied to public schools. With private schools. OK. And parents have a right to know. On both sides. Represent Nazarenko, you're recognized for a question. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Representative Wooton, so I, I think I'm understanding what you're, what you're saying. So what you're saying is that uh by this, it would It would be equal. It would be the same reporting for uh private schools as well as public schools, is that correct? Yes, that's correct. And so we'd be expecting the same reports by that public school and the private school, so everybody would have the same reports. So when I'm looking at the fiscal impact, there's 0 fiscal impact for this and my question, another question I would have, if I may, is if we expect the same reports from the private schools as we do from the public schools, should we not give the same support. the private schools that we give, the public schools. And if we did, That would definitely be a fiscal impact. Well With the reporting, we give them the money, OK. We, we provide them with the funds for the school. Now, if you're, if you're talking about all the other funding. That we apply and we give. That's a totally different thing. That, that's what I'm, I think that's where my question is if we're respecting the same reports, we should give the same support, which is, is unfeasible. I mean that from a public versus a private school standpoint. I I don't see that that would make any sense. Well, you know, it's it's, it's all in how you look at it, you know. And, and asking them to fill out a report that applies directly to the funding that they're receiving. Then they are receiving money, so it's just simple accountability for what they are receiving. And the money that we gave to them or giving to them is for matriculation purposes. And most all of the reports that go into the state other than maybe the, the, uh, the uh food program or the feeding, um, they made, they made a determination to be a private school. They didn't, and I guess we would just disagree on that because I don't see that it's feasible that we could ever give private and public schools the same exact support. I don't believe that's our position here, so or what our duty is as a uh as an education committee. Thank you. Represent Wooton just a follow up question to that for me, uh, wouldn't you agree that relative to the amount of reports that are required from public schools, there's a cost associated with that. That's correct. So how would we the fiscal impact. I'm just assuming here. The fiscal impact statement applies to the cost for the state, which ultimately ends up in the cause for a taxpayers. Um But that They're already collecting the reports. It's just a matter of adding in the private schools, but wouldn't you agree that that each public school has someone who is responsible for doing reporting that has to flow down to ADE. That's true. And so how would we, since we're not, uh, sure as to what all reports would be required, uh, what would be the best way to advise a private school as to how they need to account fiscally for the additional reporting requirements since we're not even sure what reports those would be. Well, the I, I see where you're your questions are where you're headed from the standpoint of expense to the public, to the private schools, uh, they're taking the money. And the wise accountability of the wise use of that money, uh, then it carries a cost with it. And just to follow up with uh again represent Azarenko, wouldn't you agree though that we have agreed that that is a lower amount they're 90% of the foundation funding plus they don't get the the local property tax revenue, so wouldn't you agree that there's a significant lower amount that's that's set to the student, uh, for the purpose of their education. Well, I, I, I would agree they're receiving less money, but, but I'll make this point. If, if a private school Raises their tuition. Right now, we're paying about 42%. On average For a private school tuition, 42%. If they raised their tuition. Then our percentage falls. To 35 or 30%. Now, what do you think we're going to do? We're going to increase the amount. That we're giving to the private schools. So ultimately it could end up. That we're paying more in foundation money to private schools than we're paying to public school. There's nothing that prohibits that. From occurring. And I see that as a very real threat. So there's much more involved than just reporting. All we're asking them to do. is to report. And they didn't do that in half the cases. Is it related to the test scores that were published in the Arkansas Democratic Gazette. 6 or 8 months ago. I'm not talking about the recent I'm talking about. Back and In 20 Forward Represent Brown, you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Wootton. I'm just gonna be up front. I don't support this bill. I support leaving private schools alone to do what they do so well. And There's a saying let the buyer beware. And I believe parents have their children's best interest at heart and that they have heard from other parents they've seen the the high graduation rates, the number of students that are attending private schools that get uh uh tremendous scholarships, um. They they're just all sorts of criteria out there for a parent to determine if this is the right school for their child, and if these caring parents send their child to a private school. Um, they're able to if they see their child is not thriving, they're doing well. They, they can pull that child out of that private school freely. So what, I mean, I don't see any benefit to making. What is the benefit to the student. To make them have to go through this extra testing regimen when the private schools I would used to be on the school board of a private parochial school. We had our own testing that we relied on and parents were fully informed and uh Kept in touch with how their student was doing, so what is the benefit to the student to require all this additional testing and reporting from the school. Well, the first thing I would say to you is the fact that, uh, how are they gonna know? How will they know? How will the parent, how will the parents know that don't send their children to that school. And what reports are they making? What reports are they doing? You say they have a high graduation rate. Well, I would have a higher graduation weight too, uh, too, right, if, if I Screened Whoever gets in. And they, they, they, they pick and choose now. I don't know about parochial schools. But I do know about private schools. And they all pick and choose who they want. Let me give you an example of how I know this is one of their ways. In one private school in this state, 48% of the student body, male student body and above the 9th grade. Please Football. Public schools 17%. Of the Male Population. So you don't, you don't get a 42% without your picking and choosing who comes to your school. And most of them have around 35% of their male student body plays football. That's another day of discussion. But That's that proves the point that they pick and choose. So their scores are gonna be better. In, in, in this, this talk about, we've talked to. May I interrupt? You just said their scores are gonna be better. The stores are, their scores are gonna be better because they pick and choose what, what their student body is. They pick, they pick and choose who they want. And if I can do that, I guarantee you my school's gonna be helpful for private schools. We have to take all who come and rightfully so. We don't, we can't screen them. We can't look at the great, we can, we get the grade points and all that. But we cannot. refuse to admit a student. Well, when you say you've just defeated your own argument? How's that? Well I don't know how much private school screen their their students. I really don't. I know that the only reason that we screened our students at our school is if we felt like we our teachers weren't equipped to handle a certain behavior issue or, or, or, or whatever the special need was, however, you just said, I mean, whether they screen or not, you just said they have higher scores. Well, the reason they have high scores is because they take those and make 20. 8 or above on the ACT and it has a 4 point grade point. They pick and choose. We can't do that in the public schools that justify your require your wanting to require them to test the same as pointed out to you when I started, Representative Brown. This is a parental empowerment bill, so parents can know what the score and the testing that is that is taking place. In the private schools. It's simple a level playing field. That requires a what is so special. About private schools. They have the freedom to choose and they can determine what they make sure we stick to questions and answers we can debate later. OK, thank you. Let's make sure we stick to questions and answers in this portion we can certainly do discussion later on. Uh, we have two more questions in the queue. Let me just follow up on something you just said real quickly representing Wooton, what's the, the source data on uh private schools take kids with only 4.0s and 28 on the ACT. Well, I can't, I can't tell you that, but I know it to be a fact that they select. Are you telling me? Are you implying that they do not screen. My question was simply related to something, a statement you made you made a statement that uh they take only kids with 4.0s and 28 ACTs. So I just wanted to get the data on that, I can't give you whether it's, you know, I can't tell you a factually, or give you a report because they don't give publish a report, but I do know that they look at grade points and I do know they look at ACT scores when they admit a student, and if a student doesn matriculated. a certain level, a private school will not take them in. Represent Cozar, you recognized for a question? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Wootton. I respect you highly. I really do. You're very smart gentleman, uh, I think you're doing a great job as a representative and, and I love some of the legislation you bring to you. This legislation, I have some problems with because basically, You're, you're speculating, uh, not speculating, I'm, I'll take that back. You're asking a private school to start giving scores for everybody. There's only a very few of these that are getting the money through the Learns Act, and it does go to the parent and the parent has a choice where to go with that money, uh, so they're not the school's not directly getting money for this, uh, but they choose to go, but there's, there's not that many students it's not just full of it you're not gonna find a private school that's just Everybody's getting a a credit to go to that so you're asking a school to do something and there's only a very few of those, uh, kids in that school that are doing that. So those parents have the right to ask that, uh, about their scores, about what's going on, um. I think that Everything and I, and I know I'm making a statement, so I'm gonna have to say something at the end here but but I mean that's, that's what I believe, I, you know, I, you have a passion. For public schools don't you? uh, most definitely. OK, so I'm gonna finish now. I do too. I have a real passion for public schools and, uh, I, I, you know, I'm not 100% sold on the Learns Act, and I think there's quite a few of us that not 100% sold on it, but I don't think this is the way to make our private schools pony up something that the parents can find out how their kids are doing because we do not have a 100% participation in a private school with large money. That's fine I don't know if you would agree or not. Well, Let me use a Baptist analogy, and some of you are Baptists, I'm sure, and you can relate to what I'm fixing to tell you. When the person that's a member of a Baptist church gets mad as the preacher who gets mad at the youth director or the choir director. They say, because I was treasurer and I heard this and I was chairman of the Finance Committee, and I was a deacon, so I heard it constantly. Well, I'll just designate my money. I'll just detonate my money. Well, we can't do that with our state money. With our tax money once it's paid to me, it loses its identity. I paid it. I never, I may question how it's used. But I don't have a right to tell the state how to use it. If we get into that game, And, and then secondly, Parents have a right to know without having to ask school. And secondly, Lawrence was supposedly sold with the intent. A full of downtrodden of our society. And I'll use this analogy again. If someone is living and have children and are living underneath the I-30 bridge. How in the world is that child gonna get? To west of the rock, to go to one of the private schools. They're not gonna be able to, and we have school choice. We have school choice when we started down this road. Parents his choice. If they wanted to send their children to a private school, they could do that. They want to send them to another school and within the public school system that had a a better grade one. Or they felt was a better education they could send their child. to that school. It's just like I drive a Chevrolet. I'd love to have a Cadillac, but I can't afford a Cadillac. So if you choose to send your child to a private school, why shouldn't you pay more? That school has to have that money in order to operate. It tuition. But the main point being that I don't know, I don't know what, how we've gotten this philosophy that we can give a 70, do you realize that if, if totally funded. Totally funded next year. It will be over $400 million. of state money that's going to a private institution, and we're not asking them. To tell us how well they're doing. I think our taxpayers have a right to know. So I, I just, I just, I can't understand and, and I do have a passion for public schools. I do. And I have a great deal of respect for you, Representative Co without you, don't they? But I just, uh, uh I'll think about this, I pray about this. I want to be right in what I'm trying to do. And that's the reason for the legislation. Private schools, when they take taxpayers' money. We, we, we, we face this every day in state government. The federal government will tell us. And that's our money. It's coming back to us. But they'll tell us what you can do or can't do or what you have to do. So This is just simply asking for a fair level playing field. Let us know. And, and it's a challenge to us. But we cannot overcome the fact that They pick and choose. They pick and choose who they're going to educate. So naturally, their test scores are going to be better. But the parents have a right to know. Represent Beck, you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. um. First I really I, I do appreciate your passion around public schools. But I want you to maybe twist you and have you look just a little bit different. In your bill, it basically says that if a private school Does not comply with this in a timely manner according to the, to the statute, then they would no longer. To be able to be ineligible to participate in the program. Doesn't say anything about what would happen to a public school that did the same thing, but what, but I'm not wanna go down that road right now. You also mentioned that this bill, your bill is about giving uh pre. Empowerment, I think is what you said, which that's good. So I want to paint a scenario to you. I'm, I'm gonna repeat, I think what the governor said to us at the start of the session. There's a young lady up there who's a single mom who had, and I don't remember all the, but she had a, I think 3 children. That were because of the Les Act, she was able to take those, those kids to a private school and they were doing very well in the private school. Now I don't know what the situation was. They, they might have needed some special help or whatever, but, but it, it was a working situation. But how can you say that you would be empowering someone, when in fact if that school that those kids went to, Didn't do this report, you would shut them off and that mother would not have the funds to send the kids to the school that she wanted to, so I don't see how you can say that this is empowering her, when in fact, you'd be taking that choice away from her. Thank you. Well I may respond to that. Um Parents can look and see. Exactly what scores are, and they may, they may not be satisfied with that. There may be other reasons. But, but on, on this bill right here. It just simply permits them to be able to look at and be able to determine. If they want to leave their child there, that's fine. If they want to take them out to another school, that's fine. If they look at it from the standpoint that the school that their children would attend in public school has as good a scores as I, uh, their school, then they can take them out. Vice versa if they're, if they're going to a school, public school, and they see the private school. You know, and the other thing that we're forgetting is they've got to come up with the other, uh, percentage of the tuition. We're not paying all their tuition, we're paying about on average of 42%. So if they're going, if they're gonna take their children to a private school, they got to pay the other half or roughly the other half of the tuition to get that child in. On the back side, I can give you an example of of a family of 4. Single mother She wants to homeschool. She makes $35,000 a year. If she wants to homeschool. She can get the money. Of about $36,000 a year. So she's no better off. Because If she quits her job, Oh, she's getting is the income off of the Freedom. So what do you think? She's doubles her income. She could continues to work in the 4 kids don't get an education. And I got an example of that in the letter that came to y'all the last time. From the National Home School Association, supporting my bill that I had introduced then. Because in the last paragraph of the letter, the lady stated. That She was a victim of exactly what my bill was designed to prevent. She was put in homeschooling in the 5th grade, did fine till she got to the 9th grade, and her parents could not keep up with the high school education. They continued to take the money and she didn't get an education, so when it came time to go to college, she couldn't get in. Let's continue to stick to the merits of this particular bill just a real quick follow up question relative to your example there where in statute would it allow for that same homeschool mom to actually take that as income directly. I didn't, I didn't understand what you're an example that uh homeschool mom with 4 children would be able to take EFA funds uh for her own benefit and not work, where exactly in statute would it allow her to take that as income as opposed to the funds being transferred to an approved vendor for the purpose of education for those children, I just use that example. She, because there again. is completely in her desire. As to what the education the kids and, and to clarify, lawyers won't allow that. It doesn't allow her to take it as income, just to clarify. Are there additional questions by the committee? Say no additional questions, we have some people who are signed up to speak on the bill, uh, first, Mr. Steve Graprop, I apologize if I'm pronouncing it wrong, crap. If you would please uh introduce yourself for the record and then you recognize to speak on the bill. Good morning. Still morning, I think. Um, thanks, Chair. Thank you for committee for letting me speak. Um, thank you, Representative Woo for running this bill. Um, I'm with Stand up Arkansas, which is a direct democracy and nonprofit that tries to bring the ballot initiative process in different um forms of working with representatives to have self-governance to the citizens of Arkansas. And over the last two years, 2.5 years, I've been involved in two initiative or referendum processes around this issue. I was one of the founding founders of the Capes organization that ran the referendum for loans, and I, I sat on the ballot question committee for for Our Kids to try to get the a new education amendment run. What I can tell everybody here, and I, I'm in contact with With 63 of the counties on a regular basis, and we have people organizing all over the state. And the number one thing that people do not like about the Learns Act was the Freedom Account money and not having the same accountability. I, I just look at this from a business standpoint. And I, I was in business for 20 years, ran big box retail, different things. But anytime Any company I've ever worked for. Gave money to somebody for a service. You can bet that we're going to know if they were going to get that service right or not before we kept giving them money. And this what I see in this is that we have public schools receiving these dollars that are now competing with private schools for the same dollars. Yet we feel like there are things that we need to come together to put reports on the public school and say, we need to know if you're doing this to know if we want to continue giving you money or have a state takeover or bring somebody else in. We have these rules in place, and we think it's important enough, the Department of Education to have those reporting rules. In order to get the data back that we need to see if we're being effective. Yet we're going to give money to a private school. And not know what the reporting is. There are some very good private schools across the state. A lot of good ones. And, and I do know the data. I can't quote it right here, but I can get it for you from the Arkansas Education Association, a vast majority of the students that are taking these funds. Already we're going to school in those private schools. So it was said earlier, show me how that's income for that, that low income mother that has 4 kids going to private school. No, it is an income for her. But it is income for the family that had their kids in there to start with. And therefore kids are now going to get money that that family was already paying, so that is clearly an income increase for that family. If we think if the rules are so stringent and we don't want the private schools to let the parents know how the schools are doing on the same questions and standards that we're asking the public schools, how do we know that they're putting their kids in a better situation. We're asking that institution to just tell us that they're better than the public school about whatever they want to report by. Let's be fair and to be fair to our parents. I have a kid that just graduated public school. And I would have wanted to know apples to apples. Not apples to oranges. So let's just make it equal. And fair and let's listen to the vast majority of people that are organizing right now. If we would have run just his bill, we would have put it on the ballot because there were enough people that would have signed that petition. So please, if you're saying you're listening to your constituents, listen to all of them. Both sides And I'll, I'll liop for questions. Are the questions for the witness? See no questions. Thank you for your time. Next, we have signed up Mr. Bill Cosky. If you would please uh introduce yourself for the record, then you recognize. My name is Bill Kopsky. I'm the director of the Arkansas Public Policy Panel and the Citizens First Congress. It's good to see you today. Thanks for having us. The, uh, my most important job is dad. I have a 14 year old and uh he'll be 12 on Sunday, and they're both taking the standardized tests today in the Conway Public schools. And I can give you one example of how this bill would help future parents, uh, when, uh, our, we used to live in Little Rock and when we were looking at elementary schools for our kids, Arkansas already has and always has had for a long time, at least extensive school choice and the test scores in the school that we were zoned for in Little Rock weren't great. And, uh, my wife was more concerned about that than than I was, but I won't get into marriage counseling with y'all, but, uh, we went to a different school. As you know, we elected to go to one of the magnet schools in Little Rock, and it was great, but we were able to make an apples to apples comparison because the data on the scores from those two schools was public, and they were the exact same tests. So, that's what we need to do with this as well, um, our organization at the public policy panel was founded by MOMs of public schools, uh, working moms, students in public schools working to improve our schools back in 1963, uh, we've been at this for a while now, and one of our kind of foundational principles is that public money should bring with it public accountability. And Representative Wooten mentioned this a little bit when you as a state give money to cities or counties to do a road project or a health project or anything, you expect standards to go with that money. Um, our nonprofit doesn't accept any state or federal funding, but there are a lot of nonprofits that do, and when you all give money, you want to give us money probably anyway, but when you all give money to various nonprofits, you expect standards to go with the, with those dollars. It's completely reasonable. What we ask is that you have the same standards for public schools that you have for private schools, so parents can make an apples to apples choice about where they're sending their child, that data should be exactly the same between the two schools, and it should be public. You know, I don't have to tell many of you that we're on principle opposed to vouchers. Uh, mostly because they don't perform well and every single analysis of a uh that's been peer reviewed of a statewide voucher system in the country over the past 15 years, every single one of them concludes that the voucher program led to catastrophic learning losses for students. That aside, the most important thing is that parents know the scores coming out of those schools, and they're not just listening to uh test A over here at one school, test B over here at this other school test C at this school, they need to see a level playing field for schools that receive public dollars. And so with that I closed my testimony. I'd ask you to vote yes on this bill and thank you very much. Are you willing to take questions? Oh, of course. Reson makes you recognize for a question. So, uh, my, my question is this, so are you advocating that, uh, private schools have a seat at the table and determining what standards are for students across the state should all private schools have a seat at the table to determine what standards are if we're going to hold them accountable to standards that everybody that the public schools. I think they do. They have a failings of lobbyists that are here and all over the Department of Education, uh, there's absolutely the, uh, voice, uh, from private schools and what those standards are for sure. So, so you think private schools should have a seat in the Department of Education determining standards across the state. In the Department of Education is a like, so you want to employ someone from the private schools to work at the Department of Education to advocate for them. I, I would love for you to employ one of our folks to lobby as well, if, if that's where we're going. I, I think you're missing my, my question. And set standards, the education standards for the state. Again, that's a public rulemaking process. Anybody in the public already has the permission to have a role in that, in that process, OK, all right thanks. See no additional questions, thank you for your time. Thank you. Next signed up we have Ms. Carol Egan. So, if you would please introduce yourself for the record and you're recognized. Y'all are gonna get sick of me, um, I'm Carol Egan here for as an individual and just sort of coincidentally here to speak for this bill because I was coming for the other one. And I, I just want to share a story with you, a personal experience. When I was, when my son was in 6th grade, I was recruited by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee to come work for them and live in Chattanooga. And so we were doing the whole thing. They flew my husband down. We, uh, looked at houses with a realtor, and I kept asking the question we were living in Chicago at the time, Chicago suburb. What school, what school, what school should I send my son to. This is, uh, you know, he's 12 years old. It's a tough time to move. His sisters are already in college. We is kind of a surprise child and um. Uh, there was no way I'd have one guy, the IT guy said, I send my kid to Catholic. Somebody else said, well, there's some kind of college prep school I should send him to, um, some person said, well, if you live across the border in Georgia, the public school systems are really good there. This is a, you know, maybe if you've lived in Little Rock or or Fayetteville or wherever your whole life, you know, the school system, but when you're moving in to have, that's how I read this bill. Oh my gosh, this would have been so great to have this ability to choose the school my child was going to based on an apples to apples comparison because parents who are new to the area or if your child is a first grader, um, you know, we don't, we don't have that. information and if we're so confident that the private schools are superior, they should have nothing to hide. They should be just bursting to share that information with us, right? So I, I don't understand what the big deal is. Um, I, I'm not, I admit I have no idea the amount of reporting we require the public schools and maybe it's onerous, um, but my guess is that the private schools are doing a lot of measuring and um why it can't be consistent with the public school. I don't understand, so I would encourage you. I love, um, Representatives Woo and Passion for this, um, let's just help parents make good decisions, uh, so I, I would encourage you to vote for it, but uh, thank you. Are the questions for Ms. Egan? See, no questions. Thank you for your time. Final one to sign up to speak on the bill is Mr. Davis Hendricks. Mr. Hendricks, you're recognized, if you would please introduce yourself for the record. Uh, Davis Hendricks is this on. You're OK. Davis Hendricks, uh, it's good to be back, um, I spent a number and I'm representing myself, uh, this morning. Uh, I used to represent a nonprofit, an education nonprofit, and spent a lot of time as a legislature of recession and even during the adequacy report sessions afterward following uh the efforts of this legislature to improve education in Arkansas and let me say that as a uh you know, working in public education for 50 years in Arkansas. And having retired back in '05 and then doing other kinds of work, uh, school improvement work, working for a company, uh, that had the best track record in actually helping schools turn around of any in the country, uh, taught me a lot about the difficulties in managing something as complex as an education business, uh, having worked with schools that were struggling and finding best practices and helping them work uh toward achieving best practices on. at every level, both support staff up to uh superintendents uh to teachers, etc. uh, and extracurricular as well, um, I learned that this is what you face is a monumental task, uh, having been down here for the last 30 years, 25 to 30 years following your efforts and and seeing where it is now, uh, the challenge is greater than it's ever been. Uh, let me be real clear, uh, I've had one child go through public education and do fantastic, uh, go to college and got a degree and she's running her own business now. It's doing great. I had two sons go through that same public education system and, and during the secondary part of their education had to pull them out of school because it's good as the support that the public school had for some of their mental health challenges, the school was not equipped to uh to be able to allow them to be able to find ways to get through even with special ed and with 504 and and that sort of thing, um, they're doing well, by the way now, uh, in spite of the fact that they were homeschooled for the last 3 or 4 years of their secondary education, uh, by, uh, their mother, who's much more intelligent than their dad, thank goodness, uh, and also while I was out doing school improvement work and gone 3 or 4 or 5 days a week. She was home with them, uh, keeping. Keeping their education going in somewhat unorthodox ways, but I'm here to say that, that there are a lot of ways to educate kids and I'm glad that in Arkansas we've got multiple ways to meet the needs of such an incredibly diverse population of young people that we have faced for the last 30 years that I've been paying close attention to it and being involved in it, um, but we make it even more difficult, uh, because we don't work together. We end up dividing into camps of private school and public school versus charter school versus uh homeschooling, a whole another area that I can tell you from having been there, uh, 1015 years ago, we don't, we don't monitor home schooling well at all, and I think that's the legislature's responsibility to monitor all of that and so I support this bill because it just looks like one piece of of the puzzle of at least documenting and holding accountable folks who are state money, uh, but mainly for the purpose of parents who need to know if I'm making the right choice. It, it, you don't want to wait until you've been in a school a year to figure out whether this is the right school or not. You need as much information as possible. Public schools, we provide that information. Private schools we don't, so I'm, I'm asking this legislature, uh, give some consideration to the fact that you have a responsibility to those private school parents that you're providing money. to through other means but but offer them the same accountability for that money and, and let them get as much information on the front end. I don't see this as a private school versus public school issue. This is strictly about private schools and, and it's about asking them to be as accountable to the folks who are paying that money and to the state, which is giving them that money. That's all Any questions? Other questions from the committee? Thank you for your time. Thank you. So no additional members or no additional audience members signed to speak on the bill. Representative Wooton would like, would you like to close for your bill? Represent in his clothes for his bill. What's the will of the committee? We have a motion do pass. Is there a discussion on the motion? Reson makes you recognized for discussion. I don't want to labor this out, colleagues, and I definitely appreciate Representatives Wootton's passion for our, for our public schools, but my, my, my main concern in opposition to this bill is, um, it goes back to the standards. Private schools do not have a seat at the table to determine what standards are for that, uh, uh, You know, that these testings are going to be done. And when students at private schools test, they're using a different set of standards and because they're using different sets of standards, you can't compare any reports apples to apples because we're using two different definitions of what success looks like. And so any report that a private school gives. You can't make a good determination how that school's doing against the public school because it's two different standards. It just doesn't work. And so unless everybody's playing on the same with the same set of standards, which I would be opposed to begin with, um, for that reason, um, I can't support doing this because I don't think it actually It it doesn't get maybe what, uh, what Representative Putin is trying to get that apples to apples comparison. Thank you Meeks, is there additional discussion about the committee? Represent McGruder, you recognized? Um, thank you, Representative Wooton, for presenting this bill. Uh, I, I'm in favor of the bill, uh being a public school educator, uh, doesn't matter. Uh, all I want to know is the data and everything comes down to the numbers, uh, if private schools and public schools are sending students all across the United States to be educated. Uh, we need to know what the numbers are so we can make a decision on what's best for our students and our children. So I'm, that's why I will be voting for the bill.