Education Committee - Senate

introduce our pages who are here with us today. Darcy Holt from McNair Middle School. Could you raise your hand? Where's hand. Oh good, OK, Kate Lowry from McNair Middle School. Luke McDonald from Cutter Morningstar. Drew Gonzalez from cutting more star. Jordan uh McKee, she's homeschooled. And Reagan McKee homeschooled as well. And Marley Smith from Willow Roots Middle School. Very nice to have you all with us. All This is all about you. This is about the kids, what we do here is about the kids, so we have one bill on to listen to this morning and that's HB 1180, Representative Bentley, if you go to the end of the table. Yes. Oh, OK. I'd like to make a motion to limit debate for 5 minutes each side. It On there It's not debatable. You have have a second? I would say Murdoch said. OK, thank you. All in favor. I have it. OK. limit debate 5 minutes each side. Uh Senator Flowers. Hi Senator Flowers, yes, Senator Davis, Senator Davis, no. Senator King. Senator King, Senator Murdoch, Senator Murdoch, yes. Sooner Bryant Senator Bryant. Senator Dodson, Senator Dodson, no. Senator Sullivan. Senator Sullivan. right here. The motion failed. Thank you. OK, moving right along, Mary Representative Bentley, if you can identify yourself, you will be recognized. Thank you, Chairman Committee State Representative Mary Bentley. We're here today bringing you House Bill 1180, the Baby Olivia Act. This act will add 6 minutes of fetal development instruction to the current human growth and development discussion and existing health and safety courses. Teaching children the basic facts and the approachable manner. Each public school district and open enrollment public charter schools should incorporate a human growth and development discussion into their existing health and safety courses beginning in the 6th grade. The Human Development and growth discussion required by the subdivision will include a high definition ultrasound video that's at least 3 minutes in duration and a video in at least 3 minutes' duration. This dura this video will depict the process of fertilization in every stage of human development inside the uterus and notes significant markers in cell growth and organ development for every significant marker of pregnancy until birth. The division of Education shall promulgate a list of rules of approved videos under the subdivision of this section without limitation, we're going to add the first video that we want to add to the list from the Department of Education is to meet Olivia, uh, sorry, Bali a video by live action. That's the first one we want to add to the list and as we approve more videos, those videos would be approved for schools to show on their school as well. We had a discussion last time why do we start in the 6th grade? The 6th grade is when many students experience lots of changes through puberty and other things going on in their body. That's really the perfect time to find out why their bodies were developed, how their bodies were developed in the first place. The life science standards for 6th grade students help students to explore the questions of how structures of organisms contribute to life's functions. Students are expected to develop understanding of structure, function, and information processing as well as growth development and reproduction, those are all things that are occurring in the 6th grade. Thousands of students across our state in Arkansas also take part in sexual risk avoidance education starting the 5th grade of topics such as puberty, human growth and development, optimal health for youth and sexual education. The average age of child in Arkansas is exposed to pornography 11 years. Many of those children are exposed as early as 7, giving factual fetal development to these children in a way that they can understandably very beneficial for them to counteract the lies they will hear in the bathroom on the internet, and everywhere else. We are asking for 6 minutes of fetal development instruction to be added completely free of charge to our schools. Why do we want to use the baby Olivia video. The baby Olivia video is a medically accurate animated glimpse of human life from the moment of fertilization, the story details Olivia's growth as she progresses from one development stage to the next in preparation for her continued life outside of the womb. This bill is about teaching children the basic facts about human development and approachable way children deserve unvarnished, authentic truth, or in a way that they can understand them. This resource does not talk about sex or mandate specific teaching on the. Procurement Act. The research starts with a new human being comes into existence the moment of fertilization and the very significant stage of human development inside the uterus, noting significant markers and self growth and grow organ development for every significant marker of pregnancy until birth. And Madam Chair, with your permission, I'd like to bring our surgeon General Kay Chandler to give a scientific interpretation of this video. Thank you. You'd identify yourself, you'll be red and punch that button there so you. Takes a little bit at the bottom. It just takes a minute. You can see, yeah, it's on the sit down. You can sit down There you go. All right, thank you for having me. I'm Doctor Kate Chandler, Arkansas surgeon General practicing OBGYN and yes, I just, I'm here today to just share some information just about some scientific questions that people may have about uh about what we're talking about here, um, so one of the things I think I've heard is the concern is, you know, the difference between age of fertilization, age from fertilization, and age. from um last menstrual period. So this this education involves weeks from fertilization. That is the way that this is discussed when you're talking about embryology and fetal human development, so any embryology class you're sitting in or fetal human development class is going to be talking about weeks from fertilization. That's just because it's the most accurate because we know when fertilization, I mean, we know that after fertilization, these things occur. Well, when you're talking about prenatal care, and that's when an obstetrician is talking about. prenatal care to their patient, well, they're going to talk about weeks from last period because a lot of women have no idea when they conceived and, well, I say no idea, but I'm just saying we don't know when they ovulated, OK? They don't know when they ovulated. And so we have to go from last period. So yes, that's about 2 weeks different because last period usually people ovulate about 2 weeks after the last period. So, but this education is about weeks from fertilization. So when they talk about, OK, a baby can serve a fetus can survive at 22 weeks or 20 weeks. I'm sorry. That is going along with 22 weeks from last period, estimated gestational age. So I just want to explain that fertilization, weeks from fertilization is very accurate. It's not confusing because that's how embryology and human development is taught. So now, like I said, when they're later on going to care themselves, well then it'll be talked about as from last period. So also I just want to discuss the accuracy because of the video, this video is based on research and evidence from the endowment. For human development and let me tell you that is a, it's a great website if you want to check it out, Ed.org, but um this is an organization that's been around for many, many years, had many, many awards on their website, and this is very, very factual information. This is, these are researchers, teachers, clinicians that have come together with this organization. It's a foundation of development of human development, to get accurate information out to people in general, anybody who wants to know about how fetal development embryology occurs. And so this is a nonpartisan organization. This is a non political organization. It's just about scientific facts, and they actually make a statement in their about us that they make a point not to get involved with any kind of ethical decisions about about fetal development. This is just all factual information and so I was really shocked when I looked at their bibliography. I mean, there's about 1000 sourced articles from over 175 journals to verify the information that they have on here. So it is a very, very accurate source and everything and I've reviewed the video, everything that's on there is accurately depicted and so I just wanted to share that scientific information with you. Also, um, there may be some question about, kind of touched on this earlier, when viability occurs, yes, 20 weeks from fertilization, we are at the point in medical care that many, many babies can be, can live if they're born 20. weeks after fertilization, which is 22 weeks estimated educational age, and there and this is not a new thing. I mean this has been a University of Iowa is the foremost in our country at having the best success rates. And so in 2019, there was a they published an article in the Journal of Pediatrics that stated that they had over 10 years' data of looking at data, 70% survival at 22 weeks, which is 20 weeks post-fertilization. And also the others that are leading the way That Japan and Sweden, and they've had those numbers for years also. So it is becoming more that that is more because actually in 2019, only 9% nationwide would survive at that early gestation, but now it's more like 50 to 60%. So that's a, that's an accepted, uh, you know, definition of when, you know, it's, it's not uncommon to see a baby with a lot of care and sometimes with some concerns that maybe in the hospital for can can survive. And then lastly, I just wanted to address, um, you know, what Representative Bentley has already talked about somewhat about appropriate for age, um, you know, unfortunately, We have in our state, I unfortunately had the, you know, had to take care of a 6th grader who was pregnant. So it's not like they're not exposed to this and the national pregnancy rate or live birth weight for 10 to 14 years old is 0.2 per 1000, so about 2 for 10,000. Well, it's still too high, obviously, and that number has come down thankfully through the years, but so This is kind of as as we know, these are things that they're talking about and I will say too, even at this kind of dear to my heart because um my first really interest in the human body occurred when I was 5. My mother's Textbooks, nursing textbooks was on the table or I grabbed it out. I'm not sure which, and I saw a picture of a a diagram of a of of a baby in utero. I asked my mom some questions, and I learned a lot that day, and thankfully I had a mom who was a nurse, but I'm just saying, kids can understand a lot of things and I think the more we know, the more factual information that we have, we can make better decisions for our health. And so, uh, thank you for your time. Thank you. Are there questions from the committee? Comments questions from the committee. We have a number of people here to speak for and against. I'm not finished yet presenting. I'm sorry, that was just Dr. Chandler's part. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Doctor Chan. I know she's very busy. I appreciate her time, so I just wanted to bring in uh just some scientific, you know, someone with some scientific, much more scientific background than I have to share with you the baby live video is very accurate and has been proven to be so. So why would we want to use the baby Olivia. Um, video. And why would we want to make sure that we are actually telling schools which videos we want them to show. I think it's very important we have put in our Lears Act and in the Access Act that we don't want indoctrination going in our schools saying it's very important that we have very scientifically sound videos going to our school and that's why we're listing this video in the actual bill to make sure that we're getting videos to our students that are scientifically accurate and appropriate and easy for them to understand. So that's why we added Baby Olivia into this bill. Arkansas has been named Excuse me, I'm back up here a little bit, so. And again, I want to make sure that we have accurate information. I don't want to leave it open for someone to pick a video for um. Uh, Professor to pick a video that was approved by ACOG or someone else you want to make sure it's a scientifically accurate video and that's why we listed Baby Libby here and wait for us to prove the legislature to prove other videos as we go on because I'm sure there will be more videos that come out that we think are great that we'd like to add to this list. So we have an avenue there to add more videos. Arkansas has been named the most pro-life state in the nation, Arkansas voters have consistently proven they're pro-life values, and I blew the baby Olivia video lines up exactly with those moral values. North Dakota has passed this bill in 2023. Tennessee passed it. year in 2024, both states include the live action video in their legislation that they have passed as well. There's 10 other states that are putting forth this legislation this year. Iowa, Idaho, Kentucky, South Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma. All the states are presenting the Baby Olivia Act as well this year. With the uh with the live action video in there, uh, the Charlotte Mosier Institute, a very well known scientific institute said a scientific and methodological research said Olivia is a is a beautiful story based on the latest scientific research of a child's beginnings in her mother's womb, from conception to birth. The attention to detail and scientific accuracy of the developing child are astounding. Sharing this life journey should open the eyes of anyone who doubts that preborn babies are real human beings just like you and me, I think that's the most important thing that they're um are hearing things like an embryo's just a blob of tissue, not really a human being, so the baby live video shows clearly to these students that an embryo is not just a clump of cells that is a part of human development just like infancy, newborn, toddler, in high school that embryo and fetal development is just as much part of our human development story. um, and with that, I'll take any questions from the committee that they have on the Baby Libby Act. Other questions from the committee. We will move right along then we do have a number of folks to speak for and against the bill. Um, have, um, Ray Henley Stockton. against the bill. You and identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Hi, I'm my name is Brittany Stockton. I am here as a mom of 3 daughters to testify. She's on. No. Oh, can you push that other button? Thank you very much. Go ahead. Brittany Stockton, I'm here. I'm here as a mom of 3 daughters to testify in opposition to this bill. I also want to make note that we are standing room only on Monday. People here in opposition to it and the sponsor did not show up. We had a physician and APRN and other folks who are here to testify against it. A cog, who is the notable source that gynecologists use for accuracy is opposed to this bill. They, they do not believe that the Um, video is accurate. Um, now, I'll begin. Honorable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I'm here before you as a parent and a person who has experience with the tragic consequences of our failure to properly educate and protect our children. I'm here to testify against the baby Olivia Act because it is in my view, not just a misguided approach but a dangerous one that risks further harming our most vulnerable children. We are in a state that has the highest rate of reported child sexual abuse. This is not just a statistic. This is a crisis, and we cannot pretend that simply showing children a misleading video about the consequences of sexual activity is going to protect them. The baby Olivia Act takes us backward, offering an incomplete harmful approach to a problem that requires urgent and thoughtful action. Comprehensive of sex education is not just about teaching kids biology. It's about teaching them how to protect themselves. It's about teaching them boundaries. It's about teaching them to say no when something doesn't feel right and to know who they can trust when they need to speak up. If we truly want to protect our children, we need to equip them with the tools to recognize and resist predatory behavior. Those children that you speak of that become pregnant, they did not choose to become pregnant as children. They do. not deserve that, and we need to teach them how to remain safe. We need to teach them about consent, how to recognize inappropriate conduct and how to seek help when they're in danger. This is how we help children defend themselves. As someone who has witnessed the aftermath of abuse, I can tell you firsthand that we are not doing enough to protect them. Please think of the 10 year old who had to seek seek abortion care because a predatory adult took advantage of her. Think of her confusion, her fear, and the lasting trauma that she carries with her. This is the reality we face, and this is the result of failing to provide children with the knowledge and the skills to protect themselves. Now, imagine a child who has been through this ordeal, the trauma of abuse and the need for abortion care, both of which should never have happened to them in the first place, sitting in a classroom watching this video, a video that may make them feel more shame, more isolation, and more fear. This child is a victim and this bill, if passed, would subject them to further harm and humiliation. It's not right. When we fail to teach children how to protect themselves, we are not only abandoning them, but perpetuating the cycle of abuse. It is far more effective and necessary to focus on providing children with the information they need to recognize when something is wrong and to empower them to say no, to speak up, and to seek help. I implore you to think of that young girl who has already been through so much. Think about how she will feel when she returns from accessing abortion care out of state, care she should have never had to seek in In the first place and finds herself sitting in a classroom forced to watch a video that does nothing to protect her but might make her feel even more broken, even more isolated. We have the power to make a difference in this room. You have the power and we have elected you to do that. We have the power to protect our children, but we must choose the right path. We must choose to teach them how to protect themselves, not how to feel ashamed. We must teach them that their bodies are theirs to protect and that they are never at fault if something goes wrong. I ask you to vote against the baby Olivia Act. Do it for the children who need real protection, real education. and real care. Do it for the ones who are counting on us to keep them safe. Thank you very much. So a question from the committee. Thank you very much. Appreciate your, um. Vicky Parker Since we have a number of folks here. I'm going to ask you to limit it to your remarks in 3 minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm Vicky Parker with um the Arkansas Pregnancy Network, a grandmother and a mother. Uh 25 years of meeting young women off when faced with the truth of the ultrasound of their baby with tears running down their face, to tell us that they had been lied to. Their first realization they'd been lied to that this was not a blob of tissue and then uh to see that there is a human baby inside. It is. just wrong to deprive our youth of this truth and hold back from our youth, our young people, how they develop. The fact is, if we were if we were debating a video of a development of a sea turtle or an elephant. This room would be empty. Uh, let us be clear, showing the development of the preborn human baby is the controversy. Ask yourself why. Oh, an old adage still tends true here. A picture is worth 1000 words. Imagine generations of young men, women and men in their late teens and early t and even after that cannot be told the lie if it's a blob of tissue is what they were and what their baby is. The fact is, the reason, the reason it's so many in this room is against it is because you can't unsee the truth. The development of all of us and the value of the person inside, addressing the rebuttal of accuracy. You've heard from, you've already heard from medical team, and you'll hear from more. Who, by the way, all have the same degree and the same expertise as the ones who say it isn't, who have the same OBGYN degree. That alone should make us stop and question the motive behind their disagreement. I would like to drill this down to a more common sense layman's terms, if you will, if you line up 6 mothers and 3 month old babies, each one of these babies will have hit their 3 month milestone at different times. They will not hit it on the same day or the same week. All mothers know this. The same, same is true in the womb. Each child is intrinsically uniquely made and each will develop at a unique time in the womb that is assigned by their Creator, God Almighty. If we are not, even if you're not a believer, that is, that does still does not make it any less true. So in clothes, close with this. The beauty of creation and the life is a miracle in the making and every young person should be able to see this miracle unfold. My word, how many uh how may how may it change how they view each other but view the miracle of themselves, their own creation, how beautiful they are and how beautiful human life is, um, what a beautiful positive gift to be able to give to our Youth at such a young age to be able to carry all the way through school. What I ask you today is this may be the single most powerful pro-life legislature, legislation that is made in this. This time of the year for this pro-life state. So I ask you please for a good vote, a vote yes. Any questions? Questions from the committee. Thank you. Thank you. Nicole Carey. Speaking against the bill. You identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Yes, ma'am, Nicole Cay, Education policy director at Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families. Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee, and for 50 years now, Arkansas advocates has worked for um ensuring that children and their families have opportunities to lead healthy and productive lives and realize their full potential and a couple of notes. This is a modified version of the bill compared to the last time that this Committee met on the bill, um, and just a couple of notes I wanted to bring to your attention. One is that while there was some language changed on the curriculum piece as representative Bentley described allowing the Department of Education to create a list of approved videos including Baby Olivia on the secondary piece of the legislation where it lists the specific requirements for your school-based health clinics. It is the exact same language and that the committee had issues with. Before that explicitly lists baby Olivia will have to be shown in those settings if they provide sex health education, and so I did want to make that note in case you haven't had a chance to look thoroughly at the amendments. Um, Arkansas has the 2nd highest teen pregnancy rate in the country, making it difficult for many young women and girls in our state to thrive and what we do know is that a younger a girl gets pregnant, the more likely that she is going to remain or live in poverty. I think it's important to note that between 2019 and 2021, so during a three year period in our state, 331 girls got pregnant who were 15 and younger, so that's 331 girls during that three year period, averaging about 110 a year um who got pregnant. For that reason today, um, I'm here to speak against HB 1180. As you know, this bill would allow schools to include um the ultrasound video in addition to an approved animated video listing explicitly the Baby Olivia video as an example that the Department of Education would already approved through the rule promulgation process. I want to take a moment to point out that explicitly naming a vendor in state law is concerning and I know typically is attempted to be avoided so as to not appear that um have any impropriety and just remember that. Explicit requirement to watch Baby Olivia is still listed in that second part of the bill. And regarding the video and in some thinking about some of the medical testimony from the, the last time we were here on this bill, um. Just a reminder that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists has described this specific video as manipulative, and I think that's important, um, emotionally manipulative, especially because how dangerous that can be to our girls when they watch this, and as you may know, children in Arkansas are more are more likely to have had adverse childhood experiences, what we all call ACEs, and then children in most other states and s are used to describe traumatic events um in your life such as abuse or neglect or or something else traumatic like in incarceration. Studies have demonstrated that those with more childhood ACEs are at increased risk for engaging in risky behaviors. It's children with a high number of ACEs who particularly concern us, um, impressionable children who may face difficulties at home and might see this video and think, um, that's a way that I can gather love um without any other surrounding context. And please know that Arkansas advocates supports teaching, scientifically based and human development in our schools. And we do worry that watching this video will cause unintended consequences for the young girls, um, without that needed context of seeing this video and having information that includes healthy relationships. The real impact emotionally and financially of having a child while still very young. We're concerned that children will want to seek out love and have a child of their own. And please know this is not just an anecdotal example of some. that could happen, um there actually is evidence and reports of young mothers who have expressed this exact type of thinking and unfortunately and and how that impact has been for their young motherhood. Again, we agree that medically accurate fetal development should be taught in schools, but it cannot be taught in a vacuum. Currently Arkansas law does not require Arkansas students at age appropriate points to learn. about puberty, reproduction, or contraception, yet we know for over 30 years of public health research demonstrates that comprehensive sexual health education can help young people delay sexual initiation, reduce the risk for unintended pregnancy and encourage healthy relationships. Act strongly encourage this committee to reject the passage of this bill, including in its amended form and instead work together to find a solution to bridge the knowledge gaps that are young Arkansans need through developmentally appropriate evidence-based, and medically accurate health education. In doing so, I think we can address the real problem which is our teen birth rate. And we can have a positive impact on the health, well-being, and economic opportunities for our young kids. Thank you. Thank you very much. OK, let's see, um Thelma Minton. You you like all down. You will identify yourself. You'll be recognized. Yes, thank you, Miss Moten has asked that I go before her. My name is Elizabeth Bryant. I am on the list. I think right behind or couple down from Miss Moten. My name is Elizabeth Bryan. I'm the executive director for Reality Check Incorporated. We're a community-based nonprofit, and we serve um about 7000 young people each year with medically accurate evidence-based optimal teen youth health programs directly in our schools, um, we have served over the last several years, probably about the last 16 we've been doing puberty programs and And uh programs for 6th graders. We serve approximately 3000 public school, private school, and homeschool children with quality puberty education, um, having viewed this video, it is age appropriate. It is medically accurate. It is up to date and it is a presentation of human development in the womb. If you have not watched it, I, um, request that you go do that because it is beautifully done presentation that is medically accurate. Um, and hearing discussion, um, against this. I would just like to say. Look at that video. See how it just purposely teaches human growth and development. It is not an agenda. It is an education that our young people need to see for 5th and 6th grade. I personally stand in front in class with those 5th and 6th graders, and I see the confidence that develops when they get medically accurate information of how their body is changing and how it works and when you combine that baby Olivia video with a medically accurate puberty program that addresses the physical, mental, emotional, and social changes for these children to expect the confidence level increases. I find it very difficult as a mother of 3 daughters and as a grandmother of 20 grandchildren that are mostly in their teen years. I Find it hard to believe that someone would have opposition to them having education of this type, especially in favor of some of those that have opposition want to push LAk long acting reversible contraception to the same age children of 10 to 19, and that is being served through this state to our children. Um, when you think that it is OK to put an implant into a 5th and 6th grader's arm, a hormonal implant or an IUD up her vagina and into her uterus of the same age child. Then there might be an issue with that, so I would just encourage you that this is a very powerful positive education for our young people, that is medically accurate. Thank you very much. OK, let me see. uh, Doctor Chad Taylor. identify yourself, you'll be recognized for 3 minutes. I'm Dr. Chad Taylor. Um, I'm speaking for myself. I'm a board certified obstetrician, gynecologist practicing here in Little Rock. Again, I He y'all. Um I have serious concerns about. Content Oh Is your icon, I don't know. Can you hear me? Sorry. Um, there is some serious medical inaccuracies in this video, namely, um, the first and most obvious one is the gestational age criteria when Children learn things that are not widely accepted to be the standard of medical care and then they go see their obstetrician gynecologist. It creates an inconsistency and a distrust. Um, with those people who are trying to provide excellent medical care. Um I also want to say that. Simply changing the age requirement, um, and a few other nuances in this bill did not really address the importance of local control of this issue. Um, I do believe that parents and communities have the right to determine what is taught to their children regarding this um very important piece of education. I think that if you really want to teach embryology and physiology, um, there are textbooks on this. Um, we can make scientifically accurate. Uh videos they already exist. Um, that can be presented to children in their education. Um, and we don't need to be showing them cartoons or AI generated imaging to indoctrinate them into inaccurate medical information. Um, so I am encouraging you very strongly to consider allowing parents and their teachers and the medical providers of this community hospitals around the state, medical schools right here in Little Rock to help develop education on embryology and fetal development for accurate, um education to the citizens and the children. here in Arkansas. Thank you very much. Anyone have any questions? OK. Thank you. Oh, Sherry. So I couldn't pronounce your last name. Um, yes, I'm Doctor Sherry Amaya, members of the committee, thank you for so much for allowing me to be here today. I'm a board certified OBGYN, a fellow of ACOG, a diplomat of the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology and the fellow of the American College of Surgeons. Um, I've been practicing obstetrics and gynecology since I graduated from medical school in 2005, so for the past 19 years, and I am knowledgeable of fetal development in all stages. we've all heard it said that knowledge is power and therefore I believe that the youth of Arkansas can make empowered decisions when they have all the information they need. I believe it is important for young people to have a basic knowledge of early human development. In fact, I'm hard pressed to understand why it would be at all controversial to educate students about how we all as people were formed in the womb. We should all ask ourselves why wouldn't we want students to have this education. As a physician, a mom, and a woman, I do believe that 5th grade, I know it was changed to 6th grade, but I, I think 5th grade is indeed an appropriate time to introduce this, um, biological information. This is the time when boys and girls are entering puberty, the mean age for the onset of menstrual cycles in United States girls is 12.8, um, pop culture has inundated our children with sexual influences at the very least we can provide. them with basic quality information about the natural results of sexual activity. One of the results being the development of a human being. In regards to the baby, Olivia video specifically, I believe that it is a good resource. I have viewed the video and I have compared it to other resources, um, I can attest that it is brief and it is an accurate representation of fetal development from the time of fertilization, also known as conception. Certainly there may be other resources that would similarly fit the bill, um, however, beware because I've seen other videos on YouTube and the like that do contain some glaring inaccuracies. For example, one of them was referring to the cells of the egg. Well, an egg is one cell. So that was wrong from the get go anyway, um, they're not all correct, um. So this video is only 3 minutes. It's free from organizational labels, and yet it provides a realistic overview of human development in the womb from the conception to full term. The baby Olivia film describes the formation of an embryo starting from fertilization and refers to fetal development in terms of the weeks past from the time of fertilization, so for educational purposes, that is a more accurate way to explain development rather than referring to gestational age, gestational age is a bit different and is calculated from the first day of bleeding of a woman's last menstrual period. I can explain this this difference if the committee has questions about it, but I will say that in terms of embryon ic development, fertilization or conception is the starting point. The baby Olivia film correctly states that babies have survived outside of the womb as early as 2 weeks from conception, which would be equal to 20 weeks, 22 weeks when referring to gestational age, um. The video's been criticized for being an animation that is computer generated. I have some photos if you would like to see them, of real babies. I can pass those around. And I'm open for questions. Thank you very much for your presentation. Uh, Kayleigh Buckner. My name is Kaylee Buckner. I'm a board certified family nurse practitioner specializing in women's health, and I'm so grateful, um, for the opportunity to speak to you today. I'm representing myself. My career in women's health has spanned fertility, obstetrics, and now pediatric and adolescent gynecology. I've had the distinct privilege of helping families conceive of witnessing the joy of first ultrasounds and supporting patients both through successful pregnancies and devastating losses. Because of this experience. I must express deep concern about the baby Olivia video. You've heard many medical experts point out the factual inaccuracy of the video, although Doctor Maya was um trying to clarify some of that for you. I still find that that the gestational age versus age based on conception is very confusing based on what we discuss in the medical world versus what this video or education would be. But I don't want to belabor the point of the medical inaccuracies. And instead, I'd like to talk about the direct effect of misinformation and how that can harm families. The darkest days of my career have been the ones walking alongside patients experiencing pregnancy loss. To witness someone's world crumble, is gut-wrenching. In my own pregnancies, I experienced complications that put me at risk for preterm labor. It was terrifying to think about the fact that my child could be born and not survive. So imagine a woman in preterm labor at 20 weeks, falsely reassured by this video that her baby could survive. Trusting the information she was taught in school was accurate. Imagine how false hope could amplify and complicate her grief. Especially when then her child may be born unable to survive. So to me, misinformation like this is not just misleading, it is cruel. The video also fails to provide necessary context about reproduction. As someone who works with adolescents. I know firsthand that many young people lack the fundamental reproductive understanding. I've counseled teenagers who are surprised to find themselves pregnant because they're unaware that the activities they're engaging in could lead to pregnancy. Videos like Baby Olivia make this situation worse by failing to discuss how baby Olivia came to be. In a state with some of the highest teen pregnancy rates, we cannot afford to spread inaccurate and incomplete information. Education on human development is valuable, but it must be factual. I don't believe that any of us in this field disagree that we should teach our children about reproduction. It's very important, but we do not teach that 2 + 2 equals 4, and then accept that 3.5 is good enough. I'm thankful that you have all taken an interest in reproductive education. I mean that sincerely. But I urge you to vote against this bill and instead support comprehensive medically accurate reproductive education. Thank you very much. Thank you. questions. It's a robins? No, Tony Rose, Tony Rose. Good morning. Thank you for your patience. My name is Tony Rose. I'm with the National Association. Of Christian lawmakers. In 2023 SB 294, the Learns Act. stated that teachers could not discuss certain subjects related to gender and reproduction prior. To the 5th grade, which implies an understanding that subject is broachable at that age. 5th graders are 10 to 11 years old. That is the uh average age of when children are exposed to pornography. That's when my daughter was exposed to pornography along with 3 or 4 of her other Miss Selma's, um. Uh friends that was she's 37 now, so that was a long time ago. And so this has been going on the inaccuracies have been going on a long time. Only 19% of children that are exposed to pornography went looking for it. It came to them. Our children have been exposed so much false information about human development and sexuality. It is refreshing and promising to see such a healthy and straightforward depiction of human development. This video is much healthier and certainly more age appropriate than what many of our preteens are being As parents, we want what they learn to be accurate and age appropriate. When I volunteer at the Arkansas State Fair, children of all ages are drawn to the 3D models of the gestation timelines, and I believe that they will be just as fascinated with the development as they once were in the womb. A comment was made earlier about inaccuracies and scientific teaching. If we're doing such a great job of teaching scientific information. Why do so many of our young women and children think that there's nothing but a blob of tissue in there, I think we could do better, and I believe this video does better. Addressing the disconnect between stages of gestation between your OBGYN in this video, we point out that while the date of the last menstrual period is used only 4 to 5% of babies are born on their due date. Most babies arrive a week or two before or after the estimated date. The common method of counting forward 40 weeks from the last period helps the physician track the development of the baby, but only 12% of women have a 28 day cycle and in that group, the common ovulation is on the day 15. So how can you make a more accurate video than this when 95% of the due dates and the information is incorrect. Thank you. Is that it? Did you approve the handouts? Yeah, it's you. You got him. OK, thank you very much. Thank you. Um, Melissa Robbins. Um Maybe one 2. Pay more. Memo. you said Yeah, great. Excuse me, if you'd identify yourself, you'll be recognized for 3 minutes. Yes, ma'am. My name is Melissa Robbins. I'm the director of Hope Place Fordyce and um I would like to speak in favor of HB 1180 as a mom, as an educator, um, I, I would, I had notes to discuss the inaccuracy arguments against the video, and I think um the doctors and others already addressed those well, so I'm going to pick up with um that I am a licensed K through 6. educator in the state of Arkansas. I have decided, since that my children's education is wholly my responsibility and that I can most effectively accomplish that in my own home. I was trained in college how to take a lesson and incorporate as many standard standards as possible within that one lesson so as to effectively accomplish every standard a student needs to be rigorously educated on by the end of a grade year. There are too many standards for us to teach, uh, to take one lesson at a time. So I decided to make connections with the baby Olivia video and the Common Core standards that already exist, um, that already exist for the 5th and 6th grade, and in fact, looking at the standard standards, teachers already have the autonomy to be able to use similar resources like that to support uh a requirements already in the standards. This bill, if passed, simply ensures that teachers start life sciences with the organisms sitting in the room and not just skip to the more politically acceptable organisms, such as frogs and butterflies. Why is it OK to let our kids be ignorant of their own body systems, um. how their own body systems even started, so I had this handout. I hope it was approved. I know, I think it was handed out earlier, where I just took just the standards that relate because those standards, they're really thick books, um, but I took the health standards and I put notes in um like the 5th, I gonna get to the 6th grade since that's how the bill was changed. And so as far as the 6th grade health standard of I can. of how different body systems interact and depend on each other. I can analyze more advanced body systems and the function that they play in overall health. And so with that, I had some questions like I was a teacher, what, what questions might come up and how I teach this? How does the heart and lungs work together that can start. Not form and function properly within the wombs the rest of their body affected. I get to talk what I do kids in our local high school about fetal development. I do get to teach them and I taught. Something, some ailments, health ailments started in the womb, and when you look at the self of the science statistic, the science standards, um, I could go to, um. You know, talking about uh 6th grade standards, life sciences for 6th grade 1 through 123, and 8 deal with uh conduct an investigation to provide evidence that living things are made of cells and that either one cell or many different numbers or types of cells, and it goes into more depth about how those cells. The baby Olivia at a bill could be could be cross-cutted into science that already exists in our standards, and it is a very good, it is a very good thing to educate our kids on fetal development. Please vote yes. Thank you very much for your presentation. Uh See, Miss Bosch. I'm in a patch, she just. OK. Jimmy Cain. right. You identify yourself, you'll be recognized for 3 minutes. Yes, ma'am, Jimmy Cain, Arkansas First News, but I'm here representing myself as a citizen. I'd like to start off by saying that Representative Bentley has Clear to identified the issues that the committee had before the majority of the committee had before and this and this rectified those so there's no sense and there's no reason not to pass this. I also want to go back and say that. As I said before that If we were talking about the growth of the plant from a seed in the ground in the development of that with this room would be empty. If we were talking about the educational process of how a calf. Uh, develops in a cow's womb. This room would be empty. What troubles me is that we're having a discussion because this involves human life. Why would we not want to teach Human life and how that human life develops. I understand people go through tragedies in life. I have everybody in this room has experienced tragedies or know someone who has. And I understand that, and the sad reality is we will have students that go to class in a wheelchair. We will have students that don't have to use their arms and legs. But we don't stop teaching anatomy and physiology because of that. We don't stop taking teaching the development and athletic process and movement of the body because of that. Why would we stop? Why would we not teach the human development. Of a baby in a womb. Uh, we hear testimony in here today from people that are passionate, and I'm a believer in the First Amendment. Now I appreciate that and I respect everybody's right to do that, but some of the testimony we hear have nothing to do with this bill. Was it strictly a biological process. Of human development. It's science. It's education. You heard from the state surgeon General today. You've heard from lots of people. Ms. Bentley, Mayor Bentley has redesigned this bill to fit. What this committee has asked for. So I would ask that you would vote yes, but I will leave you with this too. I got to say this before I get out of here. If any state representative or state senator. Bases their vote on a bill based off whether they like someone. Who is testifying or whether they don't like someone who is testifying, then that state represented that state senator should immediately resign and go home. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah I think that is all. Would you like to resume your Place at the end of the table, that's all. I think we, oh, we have one more, sorry. is that Uh Thank you for the opportunity, um, to speak to you. My name is Thelma Moton. I am from Conway, Arkansas. I am a mom, a grandmother, and I provide sexual risk education throughout 11 counties in the state of Arkansas. We serve upwards of 7500 kids a year. We are promoting risk avoidance education and as I've sat and listened to comprehensive sex education and talking about the inaccuracies of this particular video. I really want to bring to the table that I think it would be an act of advantage discrimination to not allow our young people to understand the process of human development. The young people across this state, they are hungry for the hearts of those of us who are adults. These are vulnerable adept vulnerable kids, and we cannot violate their vulnerability by withholding the information that they need. to make good and solid decisions. When you take this video and you incorporate it into a curriculum and it's not a set aside, it's a part of a healthy relationship curricula that is evidence based, solid in science. You don't want to just take a 3 minute video and say this is it. It has to be woven within making healthy decisions, optimal health across the board for our young people, so I will ask you for our son. and our daughters. We're not just talking about students. We're talking about our sons and our daughters, our granddaughters and our grandsons, they deserve for us to give them what's best, not what we think, but what's best, the most, the best expected and most responsible information for our kids to make the best choices for their lives. Yes, in many of our classrooms, we have young people who have experienced trauma, but do we withhold information Because of that, we promote the best place to have a child is within a monogamous healthy relationship called marriage because people don't get married. Do we withhold that information? No, we want to make sure that our kids know all that they need no matter where they are on the spectrum to make the best expected and most responsible choices. We cannot allow something like this to keep our kids from hearing what they need to know to make the best decision regarding Human growth and development. Thank you. Thank you very much. 01 moment. Wait, one moment. Senator Dodson has a question. Thank you, Ms. Moten. Um, just to be clear because I may have missed it at the beginning of your testimony, you are speaking for the bill. I am speaking for the bill, yes. Thank you very much. Good. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for your time. I know you've given a lot of patience today and I really appreciate it, um, I think we have had heard great testimony today from our own surgeon general in the state of Arkansas, Dr. Kay Chandler, that this video is is medically accurate. It is accurate information given to our children. I think we really need to go any higher information than Dr. Chandler just said this is an accurate information in this video, and that's why we've listed it as a first approved video in this bill. We've heard from people in the public that work with Thelma and Beth that work with thousands of kids across our state in the 5th and 6th grade to show that this, this is the appropriate time for us to start fetal development. We heard today from many folks in favor of this bill, and I just want to say that this video, excuse me, this bill was supported by 70 members of the House supported by the chairman of the House Education Committee by the vice chairman of the House Education Committee, our former chairman Bruce Cozart, all those folks voted in favor of this bill along with 7. Members of the House chamber, so the governor's office is neutral. The Department of Education is neutral, even the AAEA is neutral on this bill, and the only people that have opposed this bill is ACOG. I guess you wonder why would the uh the Academy of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology opposed this video being shown in schools is really they're the only ones that have done it publicly and opposed this video. I don't know why. So if you go to their website to the AOG website, and you look at topics. The first topic that ACOG will bring up is abortion. And ACOG believes that abortion is a fundamental essential health care. ACOG also believes that abortion saves lives. How in the world could ACOG believe that abortion saves lives at the end of every abortion there's a dead human being, but ACOG believes abortion saves lives because they don't believe the life in the womb is valuable at any cost, and that's why ACOG opposes this video because this video shows that human life begins at conception. We can show our children that an embryonic stage is just not a clump of cells that. somehow inhuman that we all begin. At conception and go to an embryo and a fetus is no more different than the human development than an infant, a newborn, a toddler or preschooler. It's really not any different. It's all part of human growth and development, and our children in Arkansas des deserve to hear the truth. That's exactly what we're coming forth with this video. We don't need to have our kids again to be ignorant of what happens in the womb. It's a simple 3 minute video. Easily incorporated into our scientific standards. The only, again, the only people that oppose this bill is ACOG, a group that thinks abortion saves lives and is essential to health care. With that, colleagues, I'd appreciate a good vote on this good bill. Thank you. Are there questions from the committee. Are you closed for your bill. OK All in favor all opposed. The roll call. We He did 2. Senator Flowers. Senator Flowers, no. Senator Davis Senator Davis, no. Senator King, Senator King, yes. Senator Murdoch. Senator Murdoch, no. Senator Bryant, Senator Bryant, yes. Senator Dodson, Senator Dodson, yes. Senator Sullivan. Senator Sullivan, yes. Sorry, but the bill hasn't doesn't have 5 votes. The boat failed, yes. in quite That is I Yeah, she can come back again. back one more time. We didn't vote on it last time. Mm, we just heard it. A move to deferred, OK. Yeah. OK, so we're moving right along, so Senator Clark, what bill do you have? OK, so would you like to proceed with Which one first? OK, do we have that amendment? OK. Thank you. So funny. If it's. Thank you guys. Yeah. So if you will identify yourself, you'll be recognized. OK, could I get a copy of the amendment? OK, go ahead. Senator Alan Clark district 7. Uh, I'm presenting the amendment for SB 167, uh, and the amendment for SB 167 moves the date in the bill from June 30th to June 1st. I'll be happy to take any questions. I hear a motion to accept the amendment. All in favor. All those. Thank you. Go ahead. OK, uh, SB 167 is a simple bill that just moves. The date when you have to apply for school choice. From May 1st to June 1st. folks do not, uh, They may be thinking about school choice for the next year, but they assume they have more time because school isn't out, so this moves it to when school is out and every uh Superintendent that I spoke to and I've been talking to him since last May, agreed that May 1st was too early. The, the problem was trying to figure out what the correct date would be and this amendment was to satisfy AAEA and the superintendents and AAA, uh, and I don't think we have anyone opposed. Some of the questions from the committee. OK. Is there anybody in who would like to speak for or against. Oh, we have, yes. Um, Doctor Mike Hernandez. The Over the next one, not this one, OK. There's nobody here to speak against this bill or for this bill. Are you closed? I'm closed for my bill. I appreciate a good vote. I And you say, OK, all in favor all pose. OK, pass that bill. And Are you going to 205? Yes, I'm ready to present SB 205. Hi. Identify yourself, you will be recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. The SB 205 is a technical correction. Uh 2 years ago brought a bill to this committee and to The whole legislature. That said we would not penalize children for or families for choosing school choice. Uh And When I originally brought it, I had ignorantly written it just interdistrict because I don't think about intradistrict because of my location, uh, and Central Chesterfield on this committee pointed out that we had left out intradistrict and so we went back and amended it to include interdistrict, but we had a judge in the state who decided that we had not included intradistrict, so this bill just clarifies. What we did two years ago is that Whether it be interdistrict or intradistrict, we don't penalize children for changing schools or families. I'd be glad to take any questions. The questions from the committee. Are you close to your building? 00, there's no I'd love to. Hernandez, go ahead, I'm sorry. Oh, Mike Hernandez administrators Association and if you want to introduce yourself. I'm Debbie Jones, superintendent of Bentonville Schools. Nice to see you. So, um, thank you, Senator English, members of the committee for allowing us to share and we definitely appreciate uh Senator Clark, especially on 167 for modifying that bill, and we've been in many um Many conversations about school choice over the years and he, as far as I know, since I've been in this, he's been the school choice guy, uh, dating back several years ago. And so, uh, in the discussions, uh, Senator Clark had referenced about uh bills. This, this is something we've had a lot of conversation about, uh, regarding how the bill was done last time and some some technical corrections, uh, in terms of what did it say interdistrict, all of it really started and related to athletic transfer, I think. When the bill was actually written. It was specific to allowing students to be able to transfer all the way up into the 12th grade year and we got, we were, you know, finally got a lot of that worked out and we're supportive of that and that bill passed. There was a situation that came up and like you mentioned, I think the attorney General made a finding on one way, uh, we had talked and talked to AAA and I think we thought thought kind of agreed in that direction, uh, but the judge said no, it doesn't because it's in the school choice and what and Dr. Jones will speak a little bit more about the the intra-district transfer, but I think the biggest concern that we have is that this is in the school choice bill and so it really is, even though it may have been intended for athletics, it opens up intradistrict transfer, uh, for everything K-12 and so what that means is that if I've got multiple elementary schools and we have a policy internally about how we have each person in the building, it, it now reads that you can school. voice intradistrict and follow those policies which now actually say applications are due in January and a school has 15 days to respond, so you could have transfers that semester, um, and so there's just a whole lot of things that this is more widespreading than I would say a technical correction, uh, bill, and so those are just, you know, some of our concerns about letting districts have policies, especially around the elementary grades and multiple schools all the way through junior high and I think Doctor Jones can speak to. that and then some of the high school issues as well, Madam Chair, committee members, thank you for allowing us to speak. I can't speak to this issue while it sounds like a small technical correction is it has major implications for all of our school districts across the state because it is K-12, as you know, we have about 20,000 students in Bentonville schools. I had the experience of living through the 2nd high school opening and initially in both those schools are a schools, by the way. Um, and likely would not have been had the school board not made the wise choice to hold families to their zones, um, we believe we have embraced parent choice. We have it within our own school school district where we have Broome, but we believe our greater responsibility is to create quality schools in every one of our schools, and as you well know, most families want neighborhood schools and with our growing population, say for example at Evening Star on our south side where we have a very limited number of seats if we allow school choice within our districts, then you will have the haves and you'll have the have nots, the, the families that can't afford to get their schools to the school of choice. Well, click, we'll quickly follow that income pathway as well. We've experienced that when we've had choice schools in the past. What we are offering now. where we have lots of excess space in our downtown downtown schools we're offering um district family choice to those downtown schools because we need to fill up the schools, but should we open this up, you will create the haves and have nots. It was a difficult process to hold people to their zones, and I'm convinced had we not done that with the two high schools, you would not have too high quality high schools. And so I ask that you give this careful consideration. because it will have economic and traffic impacts on our city if people are if they choose to go to the school of choice, which is outside their zone. They will be transporting their children to that school and then when families move into that neighborhood and there's no space for them in that elementary school, then we will have to transport them to other schools, so you'll see a transportation financial increase in all the school's budget, but you'll have also have unhappy parents who don't have a neighborhood choice for their school building. Thank you for your consideration. Senator Murdoch Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you all for being here. Thank you, Senator, for bringing this and you mentioned this bill to me the other day, and with me not having districts, a lot of districts in my area that I represented have what you have mentioned. She's brought something to the fore that's very much a concern to me whenever we talk about have and have nots, and we have any action up here that creates a goal for divide between segregation. and I, I never want to promote that. I don't think you do either, so I certainly please address this at the proper time. My question to you. I In what you have now as choice. Can you explain that again to me? What do you have now and how does it prevent What this, what you're concerned about and we've done this through experience at one time in the district before I was there, they did have choice schools for year-round schools, two different ones. The board voted to close those choice schools because they became exclusive schools. Now with our downtown schools where we have about 200 openings per school downtown because people can't afford to live downtown and because we have so many rentals, we still protect the zone. that the families that are there have protected seats. They don't have to choice in, but then for the 200 excess seats that we have families can choose for all of those schools to choice in that way you don't create the haves and have-nots. So you have a limited, if you will. Thank you. Thank you. Senator Sullivan, are y'all speaking just for the record for or against the bill against the bill against the against the bill, and you're speaking as representatives of the administrators association. I am. I'm speaking for my school district, Bentonville schools. OK, and if the The association, are you a registered lobbyist? I am You are, OK, and you wouldn't have to be as a senator, OK, and as a and I'm just concerned about the process, so as a registered lobbyist you're paid by the association. Who gets their money from from administrators who get their money from the state. Is that correct? So it's a mix, Senator. We get some from uh private funding. We get some from members that pay their own dues on their own behalf and then some that that might pay for through their district for professionals. And you don't know the detail of that. I'm just concerned that we have an association using state money to lobby against the bill. That's, that's a big concern. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. And there are questions. Thank you very much. Thank you. Um, Jared Cleveland. Hello, I'm Jared Cleveland, Superintendent of Springdale School. Here to visit with you a little bit. We have 23,000 students in Springdale, 18 elementaries. I, I'm sorry, I'm against the bill. Um, I'm here in my physical capacity as superintendent, although I have a lot of respect for Senator Clark. Again, I'm here uh. Managing this particular bill. With 18 elementaries, 4 middle schools, 4 junior highs, and technically 4 high schools. Conversion charter school called Don Tyson School of Innovation, which has a lottery and then two traditional high schools. This particular bill would be very difficult to manage and that quite frankly, we have often people who like to transfer within the district. We do allow that when room is available by Doctor Jones said it's very difficult to manage when When there's too many you want to transfer to a particular school. We do have haves and have-nots. We have roughly about 73% of our students that are on free and reduced lunch, so oftentimes people want to transfer to what they consider a better school. You have never heard a parent as mad. It's when they choose a particular home in an area in a for a school, and when they moved there and the school is full. Those are some of the most difficult. Conversations to have and we say yes. Hey you there in the 6th grade, but your 7th grader can't because the 7th grade is full. So, uh, although I understand Senator Clark's efforts to try to make sure every parent has a choice. I fully support choice as well, just like Dr. Jones, the management of this particular bill in a school like ours is prohibitive. So I would just ask you to consider uh managing. The way we have to. Senator Sullivan. So if I boil your argument down, although this may be better for kids, it's just hard. And you are being hard. No, I'm not saying it's better for kids. Imagine having to cut to the chase. I'm hearing you say you're managing, managing, I'm interpreting that. It takes a lot of work and it's going to be hard for the district to do that. Well, good or bad for kids regardless of that, it's just let me ask you a question. No, I'm asking you the questions. So for kids it's not riding 30 minutes to a different school on a bus and missing instruction. That better for kids or not the testimony that you gave. And I, when I heard that testimony, your argument was this is very difficult to manage. In other words, it's hard. So are there other Is there other opposition from you other than this is hard to manage. You interpreted that as being bad for kids, right? I know what you said? or you said that it's good for kids. That's what you said. Well, I'm, I'm listening to your testimony that this will be hard for the district to manage. It is, and when you, it may be, there may be an impact on students. Yes, that's potential, but if you manage it well, impact is good. There is no managing it well when you have kids, let's say that you have, I'll use, I'll give you an example, a real life example. School is a really good school, a school of choice. People like to go to Helston Middle School. It's really close to Harbor High School. It's really close to Young Elementary. It's a hub over in the tawny town area. People love that, so people want to transfer in there all the time. It's had as many as 1000 students. It really only as good for about 900. So some of our other schools, J O Kelly. In Sonora Middle School has about 600. They can manage about 900 as well. We have people on one side of town, which is about 40 minute drive from the east to the west want to transfer to Hellstro. I can't tell you why, but they want to. We don't offer bus transportation. But at the start of the school year when we hold, hold, hold transfers if there's room, we allow that to happen. Well, people move in and out all the time of the year, OK? So if we allow transfers to go in in August and some parents move in. In August and September. And there's no room for their child, the next, the next closest place to go is Helen Tyson, which is about a 15 minute bus ride, OK? So if they don't have bus transportation or they can't take their child to school. We picked them up. The hub goes to Helston Middle School. They have another 15 minute bus ride to Helen Tyson. Same thing happens in the afternoon, so there's extra time one of us, and so there's a whole lot more management. The opportunity at our school district for all of that movement is a lot of extra on kids. And so when you say that's better for kids. All I'm doing is saying management. There's a whole big ball of wax. That is a really difficult thing and if you would like to come and see, I can show you that. So I can't boil it down to one pinpoint to say it's good for kids or bad for kids. I can tell you it's really difficult and I'm sparing you all the examples of how that would look. Well, I appreciate that. I've had 30 years of experience in education, transportation, I get it, but I'm just, you know, I'm supportive of what the bill does. I understand it might be. more difficult, um. Beneficially it might be there's an upside and a downside and how that plays out, we'll just have to see. Thank you. Senator Murdoch Thank you, Madam Chair, um, and thank you Superintendent for being here, um. I'm always concerned as a as a senator or representative or in this legislature to make sure and here. From an implementation standpoint, the things that we put in place that we up here at 135 of us. Even think may be true or we through our research. I think it's a great idea. When people such as yourself come and testify. As to how it must be managed or implemented. I think that's what we're talking about is implementation and then the effectiveness of such legislation, the idea can be great. Of choice of what we're talking about. But the functionality and the practicality of how. It works for the district. And those students that have that will endure this, that becomes a concern and that's what I'm hearing is the ideal is great. But Managing it or implementing it. does not equal necessarily what we conceive it to be. Am I correct in that? Yes, you are. So let me ask this question. I is there something? And I guess the previous superintendent may already be doing it akin to what Senator Clark is trying to do. To achieve parental choice and some magnificent way while also it being done in a manner that's that's. Uh, cohesive and fluent for everybody involved. Is that we work really hard. We work really hard to make sure that the parents have an opportunity of choice, especially we even go over on the board to help, um, allow them on buses if we can. We've worked really hard to do that. We also have a school that is a 6 through 12, which is Don Tyson, and we transport all across the district to there or even looking to build a pre-K through 5. Uh, counterpart to that, so it'll have a pre-K through 12 to to have that school choice there as well. But when you're, when you're talking about 18 elementaries that are that are considered community schools and the 4 middle schools, by the time they're going through those feeder patterns, those kids pretty much like their feeder pattern. They have their friends set and all that. The main issues are at the elementaries, right? Once you get into the junior high and high schools, sometimes they transfer, transfer. for athletics and things like that. If there's a hardship, if there's things like that, we let them transfer. We'd rather them stay in the district and leave the district. So for the most part we do try to acquiesce to what Senator Clark, I think his mission is, which is to make sure parents and students have what they desire in their academic choice or even their athletic choice, right? Uh, but it is important to us to make sure that their academic. Um, opportunities are not diminished. OK. But one child's opportunity shouldn't trump anothers. And if parents move into a particular area. Because of a And someone else has taken that spot. That is a really difficult hill to climb when their child has to be transferred out. That make sense? Oh, I totally understand but if a spot opens up, we allow them to come back. So we do that. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. your other questions? Senator Dodson Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, so, If I'm understanding you correctly. Up to capacity. up to capacity If this was to pass, Also still be the case. as best we could. But I guess if If there wasn't capacity at a receiving school, you couldn't parents couldn't choice into that school even with this would be the deadline, I guess would be the question. I, I don't know the answer to that, but at any time, how does Right now parents choose new school choice transfers district to district. So this is adding that within the district, basically, as I'm understanding it so we wait till school begins. We're almost a week or two after before we start accepting those transfers. And so my apprehension is, do we have to start accepting Transfers at this new deadline. Early because then it, then we're in a real predicament. Right? And does this impede us with our uh lottery system with our Don T Towson School of Innovation. Does that, does this impact any of that? What Hall having multiple locations be impacted. That is a district. Right? Would, could they be anyway with Lisa Academy with multiple locations be impacted, who all would be impacted by this particular bill with school. I don't know that those are actually districts. Those are individual charter schools that you mentioned, well, I mean, Don Tyson's a conversion charter school, and it's within our district. I mean, I think there's some questions we need to have Don Tyson. Our parents can choose Don Tyson over a different school. Parents can choose as they're. av ail ability parents can choose our other schools too. I don't know if that's always the case and uh. I mean, it would with this law, with this law they could, but Without this law, I'm not sure that's the case with all districts across the state, and I don't know, uh. My experience has been in Bentonville, not Springdale, so I, I don't know, but Having lived through multiple rezonings and having to drive my kids past two schools. That they went to previously after we got rezoned. I didn't have the choice to send my kid back to the school that I wanted to keep them in or they started off with. We got disrupted. And then we got disrupted again. And so There wasn't a choice necessarily to send them back to The school that they had started in and kept in because we rezoned Spring belt may be a little different. Doctor Jones may be able to speak to Benville's policies regarding that. My experience might be a little bit different, but absent a law like this, uh, that's a district by district. Choice if I'm not districts have different kinds of pains. There's no question we're a little more unique in In northwest Arkansas and continuously growing and the challenge I'm sensitive to these challenges and struggles of that, but at the same time, I'm concerned about Parents being denied the ability to stay within the school or or for whatever reason decide, hey, I'm gonna My student would be a better fit at elementary B versus C or F on this list of of of school districts. I don't know, you might be able to speak to that. I can speak to that, uh, and zoning rezoning is a natural part of significant growth when we have to open new buildings, so that's part of the reason, but also this would contribute to a lot of disruption for families, your oldest child gets in to a particular elementary school. And then we have to accept res within the community, the sibling likely or could not have the seat available at your neighborhood school. And for us the traffic consideration has to be taken into account. Because uh was that already the case to a certain extent though if you have a, it's far better now with the control that we have with our bus stops and the advancements we've made, then it will be if we have open school choice. It will increase traffic. But I guess the question If this is to pass. I don't know if it will or won't, but if this were to become law. Would you still have You you still wouldn't have to take students that exceeded the capacity of a particular school building. That's correct. So that that would still be a limitation even with as it is now or even if this passes the interpretation from the Department of Ed has been, as long as you have a seat left, then you have capacity, um, with ours, we will reach capacity. Families outside that don't that stone will fill the capacity so those moving into the zone, which we will continually have, will then those families will have to be bussed to other schools. We kind of already do that now though, we do not have cleaned up a lot of those zones. We allow for choice, um, with the downtown schools we allow for choice with international baccal art, but when those families are choosing choice, then they transport. Right, yeah, basically like a charter school at that point. My argument is that the school board knows their community the best. It is a local control issue. It does have more than just an educational impact. It's an economic issue. If you look at Centerton, for example, a lot of the development you see that's come out there is because we've developed a very strong school system in that area as well. As long as you have a system where there is the opportunity to allow for choice within your district, you will create have and have not systems that's represented throughout the state. We've created very strong systems in all of our, all of our schools and the community that's grown up around that is has benefited as well. So you're not really worried too much. I mean if we have the strong schools in every area and high quality across the board. What would be the purpose of someone wanting to transfer out of a particular schools. It's traffic, um. What you hear as good for one student and to be honest, this is an athletic issue. I think this is why it's coming to the forefront and athletics is not well. I'm an athlete. I respect athletics a great deal. It's not the most important thing in our business, education is, and when a student doesn't get to play on a particular team or they don't get the position they want. That's really what this whole discussion is about and what is good for one can be very damaging for others, and I'm asking that you give school districts the ability to operate their own districts to be successful. Within and the school board is the best group to make the calls for that community to understand their family needs because they hear from local families. And so that's that's why I feel like this is not the right action for school districts in Arkansas. questions More questions from the committee. Yes, Senator Bryant. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just, just for clarity, when a, when a transfer happens currently a choice transfer happens approved by the current district interdistrict is that students stay there the entire time until they choose to go back to their home. His own school, I can answer it from mine and then you can answer that all right? So let's say Bernice Young Elementary School starts in we have a pre-K. So if they want to start in pre-K, they can stay all the way through the 5th grade from that and that feeder pattern, that child can go to Helston Middle School. They have to reapply to go to Helston Middle School. All right, that is a 6th grade, 7th grade. If there's room, the child can go 6th grade, 7th grade. Then the child has to reapply to go to Central Junior High. OK. In the harbor. It depends on where they live, but oftentimes that goes bigger and many of the times they already live in that zone. If they don't reapply to that feeder school, that next school up, they'll automatically default to their zone. same for us except for some of the parent choice options we've created. If you select the International Merry Maid, the Downtown School Elementary, then you're guaranteed the international pathway all the way through BHS. OK, and then last question on that is there um The school district currently have any type of buffer authority? OK, we're going to, if we, if we're capable of 900, we're going to reserve. We're not going to go to, we're not gonna, we're only gonna take school choice up to 880. We're going to leave 24 of those school district arrivals that happened during the midyear. We don't have the authority according to our last questions about enrollment. OK. All right. Thank you. Senator Murdoch. 00, OK. Any further questions? Thank you very much. We have one more, um, person to speak for the bill. Gary Newton You'll identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much. the committee. My name is Gary Newton with Arkansas Learns. We're a 501c6 privately funded organization representing the interests of consumers of education. I had not planned to speak on this bill, but I wanted to clarify some things as being early and often advocates of school choice. We believe choice is students choosing schools. We don't do not believe school choice our school's choosing students. It's our understanding with the bill that capacity is very well defined when it comes to interdistrict school choice, so some of the arguments made regarding the inability of districts to manage that by my my friends who are opposed to this bill is capacity is a defined issue when it comes to interdistrict. Therefore, in some ways, interdistrict students have an advantage over students that are then within the district or residents of the District for their own intradistrict choice. Is that Accurate. It's also contemplates transportation is solely the responsibility of the student, the parents. It's not required. For the district to handle transportation on that end. We have seen the bad actors when it comes to schools choosing students. Intradistrict choice has been a big deal in this state for a long time when it came to magnet schools when it comes to academies, schools of innovation. We've heard of interdistrict conversion charters, that sort of thing. I would point to the Little Rock School District is a bad actor when it came to choice. They have chronically over enrolled the most historically significant high school in America, Central High is 30% over enrolled every year because it is designated in magnet school, and in that magnet qualification, they said anybody that's designated gifted and talented can choose this intradistrict school. Well, as a result, Little Rock overidentified gifted and talented, so anybody within the District that was designated that could also get transportation within the district to then go to Central High. As a result, it stopped schools being built in other parts of the city because the politics of that school was that they were going to over enroll and move all these kids downtown because there were no other options in town. If the State Board of Education, we've seen academies like HOPE that want to have an ACT score before they. allow students to come into their intra district choice, so I would encourage the committee to think of this in her district is just as important as intradistrict and this levels the playing field for all. It is manageable. Because with that with capacity very well defined at the state level. There is always, it doesn't mean 100%. It means there is always room. Murdoch. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, Gary, good to see you. So a square for me what the two superintendents of Very good school districts by measure, uh, have came and testified to the The problems that it causes. I mean, you're, you're saying something, they're living something, so and it seems to me that before we get here today that you all have met, you could have met, should have met to work this out because they're diametrically saying something different than you. And It's a difference in So you're just saying that they are, what are they doing wrong? Because they're saying it doesn't work, Senator, you referenced at the beginning about their lived experience. My lived experience in the Little Rock school district that there was not capacity at my zone school. Therefore, my children went to a school that was intradistrict choice because there was not capacity available, so what what this is starting to make me feel is that because I'm hearing personal living experiences, theirs, yours, Little Rock. This might need to be left at the local level. Because as we do it from here, whatever we do. is going to infringe on somebody if we do what the bill says according to what the test, according to the testimony that I've heard. I'm going by the testimony. That I've heard If we say yeah, it's going infringe on. These two that have testified the way they interpret it. If we say no. Then it's going, it's going to violate whatever you believe. As well. So we're put in a position as we listened to testimony from people specifically those two. Very difficult position. Because My districts don't have that. So as a senator that has to cast a vote. I'm just listening. To this and reasoning and trying to use good logic to make a vote and and certainly support my senator just because I want to do that, but I'm hearing something. And I want that to be worked out so I can make a good decision for all this involved, but it sounded like to me it just giving you where I am, that this is more of a local thing that a Little Rock. So far that's what I'm hearing so far. I hear you. I understand that, but I would argue that again to the to the root we believe choice. Its students choosing schools, not schools choosing students. You heard testimony about the management of an intradistrict choice system already. There is a choice system within these larger districts of, of people choosing to go, but it's the schools and the district's rules on who gets admitted and who doesn't. It was referenced about charter schools. Charter schools are blind lotteries if there is more uh. Demand than supply, it is, it is a blind who gets into that respective school. So That's the elegant solution in all of this. If there is no capacity, there is no issue. If there is capacity, why shouldn't intradistrict students be afforded the same opportunity that people that live outside of the district because they would get that chance to go to that school in the district, right? And, and I think Senator Clark in his closing, he's going to clear a lot of this up because I can hear, I can see your expression, so I'm certainly reserved for that. I mean, generally speaking, so as we go down to these local things that where I think we are right now. I'm gonna against school choice because what school choice do is is is is is is provide for segregation. That's what I experienced. Now we're talking about real life, right? So if we get down to me locally, we don't, it's not good for us. It hadn't been good for us, and you can't convince me it's good for us because I know what it has done. It gives to the have and have nots concepts. And leaves others with what's left, so that's not for this discussion, but certainly I'm into a different discussion now, but choice. In other situations has not been good for. The communities, students, and certainly the districts that are there, they still have to educate children. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. But Thank you, Madam Chair. I apologize for the time, but the choice of when to run the bills was not mine. Uh. The I hope that you will hear me. I know you've been here a long time. The Bentonville superintendent at one point said, As a problem if we had open school choice. I think under the Laws Act. We have open school choice. I think that's what the intention was. I think that's what the law was. That's what we all thought we had. I didn't know I was opening up a can of worms that we weren't allowing some kids in this state. And some families to choose schools. I thought we were allowing everyone. To 2 schools. I thought that's what we believed. I thought that's what we were for, and I know me, who's been fighting this battle for 12 years, the arguments against school choice never change. Government should decide instead of parents deciding. And I believe In the selfishness of parents. I remember calling. He's a lobbyist now, State Representative Roger Smith. Many years ago and saying Shay wants to go to Lakeside. And the law won't allow it, and he said, but we already have school choice. And I said, no, we don't. Because Thus Receiving school will always take them, but at that point, the school that was losing kids. Didn't have to let them go and they never let them go. I went to school board meetings at more than one school. They never let them go, and it was always over one thing. It was not about the kids, it's never been about the kids. It was about the money. It was we don't want to lose the $8000 the $8400. Regardless of what it does to the kid, regardless of what it does to the family. But that legislature passed a school choice bill that my daughter was the first. I know because the week after it passed. I went to the superintendent at Lakeside who had no idea what I was talking about. And he got what AEA and they got with BLR and they got him the law, and I know that she was the first one that was able to change schools. She lives in Bonn, Germany. She's college speaks college level and writes college level German. Works at the UN And she would have never had that opportunity. She got into UCA with a full scholarship. QCA honors by the skin of her teeth. And she had, she cried because it was so hard for her to catch up. Once she changed schools. I'm thankful that my daughter got that chance. I sit here before you, National Merit semifinalists, valedictorian, don't have a day of college. And I don't have a day of college because I was against going to college because my parents didn't want me to go to college, but I did not have a counselor at my school to tell me that I had a full ride at any state school and the reason I didn't go was money. Capacity 12 years ago. When we first got here and first start tackling school choice. The bill that we got to House Education Committee by the skin of our teeth. said, there are 3 reasons why you don't have to accept students. If they've been expelled. If you have to hire teachers or if you have to build classrooms. That law has never changed. Capacity is covered in the law. If we don't like the rules at ADE has to come forward and say we need to change the rules, but what the legislature did It was reasonable. We said if you, no matter how bad the parents or the kids went in, if you have to hire teachers, you don't have to take them. If you have to build buildings, you don't have to take them. That's a spurious argument. Skies falling. The sky's always been falling when we were when we wanted to give parents a choice. Transportation. Let me tell you, education committee, 12 years I've been fighting and we still need to do it. We need to take transportation and move it out of adequacy. Still be part of that but it needs to be a separate budget because these big schools make out like bandits. These little schools that have to send buses for miles and miles. The little poor schools. are getting compensated the same way that these big schools that are Close And have very few miles to go, same way, and they are making out like bandits on transportation, and this, you know, that a kid might have to go 15 minutes. We were going to run a bill 10 years ago that said, boy, and it sounded good that a student in Arkansas doesn't have to ride over an hour one way on a school bus. And we dropped it and didn't do it. And one of the reasons we did that is one of my school districts came to me and said when we were consolidating, we took these areas, the school, the state asked us to take them. And if we go that far, We're going to have to send taxis because and pick up 2 or 3 kids at a time. That's the only way we can get the distance in these rural school districts, the time less than an hour, so, so I can't cry there. Gerrymandering. Senator Murdoch, you'll talk about haves and have-nots, you look right here in this city. I would be embarrassed to have the map that they have for school districts because it is drawn, you look at it, it is drawn so that the wealthy Who used to come in here and testify against school choice. Because their kids were getting or already living in the areas where the best but it wasn't because they were all together. It goes over here and over here and over here while others Are gerrymandered into School districts and high schools that 90% of their 11th graders Can't read on grade level. The, the haves and have-nots are not. They're not lack of they're not because of school choice, they're because they have deliberately gone away from that and the idea, the idea from the beginning till now is superintendents know best, parents don't. Which means government knows best. Our schools are government schools, which means government knows best, the family doesn't. If they, if they don't have room, they don't have to take them. It's as simple as that. We can't change capacity. The boy that this year was denied school choice. It was because he happened to play baseball. He lived in Fort Smith Southside and earlier. This Family and he had chosen Fort Smith Northside. So he wanted to transfer back to where he lived. There was no capacity issues. There were no Other issues except athletics, he wanted to come back. To Southside because they have a great I'm, I think they use the word intern, but medical teaching, medical intern program, and he was very serious about being a doctor. And he wanted that experience for a year, but they didn't want him to transfer. They talked about this about sports. Nobody will get, you know, as a high school athlete, nobody will get down on schools and sports in this state more than I will, and I want to tell you when they say they don't care. Let me tell you, when the star quarterback wants to leave. The superintendent's care. Uh, they're more, they're more about the sports that a whole lot of parents are, and we covered that last time. We're just, we're just fixing it to make sure it applies to everybody. We fixed that last time that said if you've been recruited, If you can prove they've been recruited, it can't happen. But other than that, Athletes don't get treated worse than chess players or or people in the band or cheerleaders. We said it was, it was an anti-discrimination. We want school choice or we don't want school choice. If we don't do it this year, I promise you, if I'm reelected, I'll be back and I'll be back. Because Kids in intradistrict schools. And we haven'tdistrict school in Hot Springs. We have one in Melbourne. They don't have two high schools. What they didn't say is if you live in Solo Springs, you can school choice into Springdale or Bentonville. You can school choice from Springdale to Bentonville or Bentonville to Springdale. But you can't choose. If you're within the school district. What sense does that make? Why do these families get left out. We, I, I can assure you the governor never intended to leave him out. I never intended to leave them out. You never intended to leave them out. But these arguments about capacity, the law is already there. The law is already there that anybody that asks, and I don't care how much they yell at a superintendent. If there ain't room, there ain't room. We all understood that. That's what, that's why we made it as fair and logical as we could from the beginning. So that you can't choose something that's not available. Who knows better what's best for their children. Tyler Dees knows better than his school superintendent Brianne Davis knows better than her school superintendent. Josh Bry knows better than his school superintendent, and you know I'm right. Reggie Murdoch knows better than the school superintendent even if he's married to her. And that's all we're asking is that we just fix it. To what we did originally. It said you don't get discriminated against wherever you are. If you want to exercise school choice. I'm closed, I would appreciate a good vote. 2 Not a second. Did you have a question OK, go ahead. And Oh yeah. So What Some parts of it I, I get, and it goes back to your original conversation with me. The way you explain it. It's, it's simple. It's simple. You're talking about intra. already, whether I agree with it or not, it's already somewhat in law statute now. But As we hear what They are talking about their respective districts. That's hard to ignore and I'm not calling them you call superintendent government. I'm not. I'm not calling that government. Uh There are, they are experts in education that have educational training in that, so I'm, you know, I'm government and I, I don't have that. But I'm in a position to possibly so, so I do respect that differently. I look at it differently and and and I'm tossed and turning between, not giving them the autonomy. To use their expertise along with their school boards. To Do the best thing. Local, you know, that's, that's where I'm turned. You're simple I get that. I get that but they explained something different. That's a problem for them. Now it may not be in other places either. But they have So much they probably growth schools and some other things so. I don't know that that's, I mean, it's emotion we discussion. I'm just, I'm just telling you where I'm. Perplexed still, and I, I can acknowledge that. I'm just perplexed as to what's best to do. I think we have a motion on the floor, so, oh, OK, that's why I asked you, but OK. What discussion phase, so I'm just, I guess. You made a motion. And you seconded, OK. All in favor. Uh All post I didn't hear you. Did you say no? OK, so we need a roll call. Senator Flowers, Senator Flowers, Senator Davis. Senator Davis, no. Senator King, Senator King. Senator Murdoch. Senator Murdoch. Senator Bryant, Senator Bryant, no. Senator Dodson Senator Dodson, yes, Senator Sullivan, Senator Sullivan, yes. Oh, the motion failed. Sorry. We have one more, one more bill, Senator Bryant. Thank you, members of the committee. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. You can stay right there. Oh, OK, go ahead. I'd have to visit with Miss Willie yesterday. Me too I just love. was cold. OK. About it. Oh, we're not gonna have anybody left. Oh, I thought we were done. You Yeah, go ahead. You may proceed, identify yourself. Thank you, Madam Chair. Joshua Bryant, District 32, and this is I'm Spencer Griffith. I'm the deputy director of Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. And I, I had a long, longer presentation prepared. I know this committee is exhausted this morning. Yes, we are, um, so when Representative Richmond brought this bill to me, he had a defined purpose, obviously to to ask our school system to add one more thing to their schedule. 30 minutes of gun safety. And at first I thought we would probably be exhausted with adding one more thing, one more mandate to our school system, and then he kind of unpacked it for me and that we have families that have guns in their house and teach their diligence to their children. We have families that have guns in our house that teach them nothing about gun safety. Then we've got families that know nothing about guns, and I'm sure there's more more qualifiers than that, but when you live in a subdivision, of which I do not and he does, but I grew up in a subdivision. Kids tend to gang. They tend to run in packs. and herds and they might go to the house that has the gun of one of those three categories. And in that you're having a, a uniform instruction of understanding of gun safety, not the 2nd Amendment, not pro or con, just typical gun safety is is what the impetus of this bill is, and so You know, when you look at resources, what is that going to take? Well, our own Arkansas game and fish commission has those resources, and that's why he is here today to explain to the committee about these resources available. The school Department of Education is willing to receive this. Several school districts already do this, and so we're just asking this be placed upon the district's choice of of when during the school year and how based on their collaboration with Game and Fish and the necessary instruction to teach gun safety to the students. So with that, I would just like to But um A game of fish discuss what avenues they have and what resources they have available. Um, happy to answer any questions that you guys have about, yes, I'm sorry, Spencer Griffith, deputy director of Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. I'm over the education licensing 10 ed divisions that would have to implement this with the Department of Education. We do have a learning management system that we've put in place that can work directly with school districts we're looking at ways we might be able to integrate with school districts to make this simple. a very simple process. When asked questions over in the House, some of the things that came up of concern is, you know, when would we start and how would we appropriate that often I think there was a misconception that we might enter a 30 minute um execution annually for students, and I think through further discussion we have identified ways that maybe we do have some longer form instruction in a virtual environment available on on. LMS systems for students, but that not every year would that happen and that we could provide, you know, reminder mediums that are 2 minutes long, you know, but in some subsequent years. So there's, there's definitely ways for us to take what we have already developed in firearms section of our hunter education and pull out just the safety elements, things like what is a firearm identifying a firearm visually that they're serious and firearms can severely harm. an individual if mishandled and what to do when a small child or students finds a firearm that they should, you know, back away and go find a parent or an adult, and so those very simple things can be transferred. We also took a look at, you know, we heard plenty of testimony or information regarding concerns about implementing this into schools and is it another thing that we add to curriculum to the to the annual. So we talked with some of our education staff members about how do we put this in digestible sections. How do we make it as free and available as possible for school districts to implement where they see fit, and we kind of looked at that analysis of other safety time education that's spent, so monthly fire drills, 3 tornado drills a year, 1 active shooter drill is a very common practice. How do we limit this education down to, you know, 5. 15 minutes one time a year, and so with that information I'll take any questions that you guys have questions from the committee. Seeing none. Like to close your bill. Yeah, thank you again committee for hearing this go out. I think. I think if you read just the, the strict parameters of the bill, it is just simply gun safety taught in our education system, a limited amount to just to get the. Students aware that these, these just like drugs that introduced into our society have risks associated with them. So with that I would, I would make a motion to pass. I hear a second 2ndinder Dodson. All in favor all opposed. Thank you, Pastor Bill. Thank you. And I think that is it for today. Right Thank you, everybody.