Education Committee - Senate Meeting Jointly with Education Committee - House

At and if you'll go down to the table we're going to do that members of Senator Hickey yes and we we pass legislation this session that's been signed by the governor and has put this process into place this process that we are about to describe I'm a let Senator Hickey really describe it because he's done the. Majority of this work on it but Senator Eads and myself and others have worked with him on this process but what the process is and why it's important is we now understands that we have the ability to have a hundred million dollars in reserve to park and then to a fund it's lotteries a year and a year in the rear so that we understand how the scholarships are cash flowed and so that when we have legislation that changes that flow of revenue we now have a system that's created to show us what that lottery revenue impact will be based on the legislation and how it's written we've never had the ability to do that before so this is a big big deal and this is a great policy change because now we as legislators will have the opportunity to actually see the cash flow and see how that policy will change those lottery revenues and what it will do to those lottery revenues on so with that I'm going to recognize Senator Hickey and Maria market Dr mark and to describe the process that we have before you members after that we will hear all three bills first without taking action and then I'll describe that process to but let's start here first so that we know in gotta get a lay of the land Senator Hickey you're recognized thank you madam chair well you did a good job explaining the bill really had two parts is of most of you all know that you passed the first one was we did take of money that we had in the trust account that we've been saving of. With. Made that so that we would be paying all the scholarships when you're in arrears after after this year so that way if we ever get into a fiscal session situation it'll be brought before a C. N. at that time will either reduce scholarships on a pro rata basis or you know the opportunity will exist exist of the legislator what wants to put in more general revenue then that will be available also however what we're here today is we also set up a process so that any term that the legislature comes into session there's going to be a requirement after this year we're running joint rules that will be doing here pretty quick that says that the you know that all anything that has to do with the the lottery scholarships be a new scholarship or some type of revenue amending bill will have to be filed by the thirty first day after we start the session the reason we did that is because as we're doing here today what after after that's done then we'll meet in regards to all those bills for you all to figure out what you think is best to pass out as far as the fiscal policy for the state of Arkansas and for students. The way that we set this up if you would just you all should have your impact statements Input impact statements here in front of you and we can take there's three of them for what you have and I'll just kind of go over these. I'll just take let me just take a. Senator Breanne Davis is since I don't know she's in here or not but anyway let me just take hers is totally as an example. What and again whenever you see these physical impacts these fiscal impacts or different than your DF in a fiscal impacts that we see all session with our other bills these these fiscal impact right here are developed from the watery and also from higher ed with numbers that they have. The way that would set up the legislation that you all passed was the first thing we do is we go in and and ask the lottery to provide us with the what they're net proceeds war over the last four years so as you can see. As you go down there nineteen course in the start the bottom sixteen was eighty five million seventeen was ninety one million eighteen was ninety eight and nineteen was eighty nine so we did have a of course you will have those peaks and valleys with anything you do the way we set up the legislation was is with those four years is that we would take the lowest number of those four years which is going to be the eighty five one fifty seven. We also. Always or we've always put in twenty million dollars and state general revenue to help support the watery so you can tell with the next one those since since the inception of the watery we've been putting in that twenty million so we're will be taking the eighty five million plus the twenty million in G. R. to come up with the revenue that's available to fund scholarships. Then what we do. Is if you look we currently have for scholarships that are in place we have academic challenge we have the concurrent which was put in this last session we have the workforce challenge which was put in I guess. A couple years ago. We have no other scholarships if we were to have any other scholarships that you have here today that's where we would fill those in and then we also have some money that goes to our nursing school those are not our guard some of our nursing that's not actually paid out of the The lottery proceeds but it does come out of the twenty million dollars so we have to include that as an expense item. So on the what we do in the way that the legislation was set up. Whenever we we figured the lowest of course on the revenue well we've got the way we have it set up is that we would figure the highest on each one of the scholarships so for the academic challenge we would use the two thousand seventeen eighteen year because at that time we had ninety one million seven thirty nine six ninety two that was paid out for the economic challenge. The work force he's on page three of Senator Davis is fiscal impact statement Page three under revenue will not Roman numer one numerical number number four from a numeral four actually is three at this current time three. Of workforce challenges to sixty six we take that number and then we take the highest number the for the We take the highest number for the a nursing scholarship the hundred and forty two and the concurrent cost of six hundred thirty eight thousand to twenty four. Whenever you add all those numbers together. I didn't bring down here. Whatever you at all those numbers together. Well that includes R. one point four. Whenever you at all those numbers together then higher yet what they had also done alone under number five is eight calculated that this new scholarship would cost one million four hundred thousand dollars per year so whenever you take that take those together we would have a hundred and five million dollars in revenue ninety four and expenses which would leave us ten thousand dollars left over so that pertain million skews me ten million nine hundred and seventy apologize so that particular scholarship would cash flow with our current revenue at. So or with our current revenues. So with that what you are going to be faced with. Is not only today you have three scholarships in front of you but in the future especially if you were to get six eight ten request you're going to have to go in and try to figure out which ones that you think you're going to be the best policy for the state of Arkansas. And then you're also going to have to make sure they cash flow. If you were to have two of them that you think are good. In the future or today what you have to do is is if you do pass one whichever one you're property is you're going to have to remember to include the cost of it into your next one because we haven't done that as far as the seats are concerned. All right finished. That's right are there any questions from members of the committee did you catch that. Any questions from members of the committee. Okay I don't see any questions thank you Senator Hickey and I'm you're gonna stay there yes we're going to keep Dr Markham if you'll to state your name for the records. Yes ma'am I'm Maria Markham director the Division of higher ed okay great okay so members Senator Davis. And if you'll come for to present senate bill four fifty seven. All right if you all state your name for the record you're recognized to present Senate bill four fifty seven. Thank you madam chair Breanne Davis state Senate district sixteen. Kristen Johnson. Shame roadway issue system who were you with Arkansas state university okay thank you. You may proceed thank you madam chair members of the committee and this bill includes and this bill is asking include students who are accepted into comprehensive transition and post secondary program to be eligible for and the Arkansas academic check challenge scholarship program and I'm gonna lead doctor Johnson explain the details bill. Okay thank you What I wanted to do is talk a little bit about the programs that we are talking about today and I am representing the Arkansas alliance of inclusive pose that postsecondary education programs it's a volunteer group for three programs in particular that are written into the bill today which are comprehensive transition programs it is the you have a Pulaski technical college three D. program and then the U. of a in power program and the Arkansas State how will transition program. Since nineteen seventy five with individual in of intellectual disabilities have the right for free and appropriate education until they reach the age of twenty two under federal guidelines which is now called individuals with disabilities Education Act these rights do not apply to institutes of higher education as they meet a different set of standards set by the higher education opportunity act. What this meant on the most practical level is that students with developmental disabilities were told college is not for you. Post secondary inclusive education programs have grown in number across the country from approximately fifty programs in the year two thousand to one hundred in twenty oh nine two more than three hundred in all fifty states as of today there's actually exactly three hundred and six in our two thousand and eight three authorization of the higher education opportunity act included a number provisions that pave the way for increasing access to post secondary education in many ways establishing expectations for what is possible in the years after high school for students with intellectual disabilities. Inclusive post secondary education in Arkansas all seek all these programs seek to provide students with academic rigor socialization independent living skills. Self advocacy skills in preparation for gainful employment the first program began with the launch program in two thousand and eight they have had seventy two of seventy eight students enter and forty seven who have completed and forty are currently employed and then the next program the last programs that are gonna be talking about are specifically comprehensive transition programs that the bill actually is talking about. Are the next program as the three D. program they started in twenty thirteen and they have had to thirty nine I'm sorry not thirty nine fifty nine students all with a hundred percent completion rate and fifty three percent employment rate with the last few years of being higher in employment then you have the empower program if you of a launched in twenty seventeen and they will have their first students graduate this month then you have my program which is the whole transition program and we just had our first cohort this year and we currently have sixty percent of our students and currently employed part time. What is important to emphasize is that these programs are not just not just about making students feel good about being on college campus it is a little bit about that the program's all include academic course work they take it either for credit or for audit they do their homework they do their assignments they also receive mentoring from peers and program staff and they get grades they also have internships explore areas of interest outside the classroom like theater or sports and make friends including of a building a social network because of the specific language in the higher education opportunity act programs all emphasize employment as a desired Arkansas program supports students in obtaining a job often two to three different jobs over the course of the college experience looking for their first career. Our program successful in improving employment outcomes the national data say yes. Includes a postsecondary education our programs are sucede with higher rates of employment and higher levels of pay however I'm going to. Get to this in just a moment in a minute because I'm going to talk specifically about comprehensive transition programs. this designation was created for the higher on Education opportunity act so that students who attend any inclusive post secondary education program could have access to federal financial aid in the forms of Pell grants and federal work study. There is a rigorous application process schools must go through in order to become a CTP or comprehensive transition program organizational and structural components include offered at a higher institution of higher education institution acknowledge of the regional a credit accrediting body. Certified by the US department of education and then program components prepare students for gainful employment through one academic courses with non disabled peers to advising and curriculum that support individual goals three internships or work related training and for opportunities to be included in student life. Therefore a currently for programs that meet this criteria in Arkansas. So why is the certification process so important for programs. The print from the program perspective certification as a CTP removes a partial barrier for families as their ability to pay as a consideration to participate most CDPs are funded through tuition and fees like any other program students are paying for their education like any other students however these students are not eligible for the majority of scholarships and student loans that other students who go to college our this is a barrier for many families when all students want to live their dreams of education inclusion and independence and a job. So let me go back to kind of the employment numbers. People with intellectual disabilities are unemployed and underemployed only nineteen percent of adults with an all intellectual disabilities from ages twenty one to sixty four are in the labor force. This is compared to eighty three percent of working age adults without disabilities who are in the workforce despite the fact that most adults with intellectual disabilities are under deployed under employed many experienced job stability sixty two percent of adults with intellectual disabilities employed in a competitive setting have been at their current job for three years or more the data on inclusive post secondary education nationally provide promising results over two thirds of individuals who have completed one of our programs a nation wide sixty seven percent of them had jobs three years post program. Of the individuals who have a paid job over half of them have also engaged in on paid career development experiences such as volunteering and community service and unpaid internships as well as working their paid jobs these individuals have achieved employment at a rate more than three times the adults with developmental disabilities in the general population and indicate high levels of satisfaction with their social lives. In addition students who went to an inclusive post secondary education program earned on average eighty eight dollars more than a student who did not in this particular national study the amount that earned over the non participating to peers was a difference of one million six hundred thousand dollars in a year. You're probably wondering about the financial impact on student on support from other agencies that students receive say for example vocational rehabilitation. Senator and colleagues in twenty eighteen study the cost effectiveness and cost efficiency of B. R. support for postsecondary education for students with ID they found B. R. services cost four hundred and thirty seven dollars for people with IT who were also in a inclusive post secondary education program compared to four hundred fifty four dollars for those that have a high school diploma compared to those that had no high school diploma at five hundred and four dollars. I'm sorry five hundred and eight dollars while providing higher education services to people with intellectual disabilities did have some up front costs those costs were paid within twenty eight months due to the cost savings and the reduction in government benefits resulting from their employment. Combined these findings indicate postsecondary education for people with intellectual disabilities is both cost effective. cheaper than other services and cost efficient pays for itself over time. A program that shows this much potential to reduce poverty and increase employment for people with intellectual disabilities is worthy of continued investment and study. In summary we believe supporting SP four fifty seven is investing in all post secondary students lives and futures but also building and maintaining independence social network and future work force for inclusive post secondary education programs. We understand that this is not just a decision about social issues but a financial one that you'll have to commit to long term. We believe that the financial investment solid with the great return in the short and long term. I want to acknowledge the contributions of the colleagues and partners across Arkansas with the three D. program and empower program my colleagues also at the Arkansas lines for post secondary education programs for their efforts in fostering the idea. My colleagues at the college and centered Senator Davis and representative Mayberry for sponsoring the bill you who also represented at the Arkansas legislature for investment in in support of SB four fifty seven thank you. Thank you Mr Broadway did you want to make comments or just to cover it all I'll be glad as she covered it all I'll be glad to help she doctor Johnson I've been blessed work a lot of wonderful people who care about students and she is at the top of that list creating our house transition program in its first year and hopefully you will be coming to campus for the rule development conference in October we would love to take you over to see and meet other students who are part of this program but she pushed me because Tennessee passed legislation they have a lottery just like we do allowing students with intellectual disabilities to access lottery scholarship dollars to attend these programs and so that's when we begin the process or reached out Senator Davis we looked around to see whatever everyone else is doing so we we thought it was worthy of your consideration I was part of driving initial lottery bill back whenever it passed in two thousand nine I guess it was and we didn't have an opportunity away for intellectual students with intellectual disabilities to access lottery funds because they didn't meet many of them didn't meet the criteria of a two five or nineteen or an a and at the time. And so now we have these programs in our state that some of our institutions that give students with intellectual disabilities the opportunity to present or pursue a college education and an occupation outside one state once they leave our program so we appreciate your consideration and your support and I appreciate doctor Johnson's working Senator Davis for being here as well. All right thank you representive Lowery recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair. on page three in this maybe somewhere else in code but could you tell me on lines eighteen through twenty what is considered to be satisfactory academic progress a progress in the approved institution is that it does that change from campus to campus or program to program. There are okay I am in okay I just wanna make sure so it does change slightly from program to program although most of them because of the rigorous guidelines for the federal designation it's typically very similar in that they have to pass the course work they have to participate they have to attend and so and then they also have to meet their goals because each student has goals that they must achieve and so each program has their own guidelines for satisfaction however those are well documented within their comprehensive transition program guidelines. Don't know if that answered it but. Action actually know of their follow up yes please so can you can you can you give me an idea I mean are are there minimum number of credit hours that have to be I mean I I see the cumulative number that says a hundred thirty hours over eight semesters and that there's continual enrollment so progress would be I would assume a number so many hours. Eight semesters in two hundred thirty hours would be what they have fifteen hours earned something a mass off what are the minimum number of hours that they would need to pass to be doing continual or or whatever the phrase is academic progress so they have to be currently enrolled full time however that full time can be either auditing the course or taking the course for credit and so that looks slightly different for each individual however they do have to either make the grade or make a passing So it's either on passing a U. or P. passing and so in all of their classes along with all of the other goals and all the other demands that we have not just academic domains. Okay all right thank you all right thank you senator Chesterfield Clark thank you madam chair yes my eyes were glazing over my years died of could you tell me I'm reading all of this stuff about the twenty million here in and out of there just tell me in what will each one of these cost what will senate bill four fifty seven cost what will senate bill four sixty two. What was Senate bill six forty eight cost of past yes ma'am thank you senator Chesterfield the fiscal impact statement for senate bill four fifty seven is on page four under Roman numeral five in its one point four million one point for me thank you the total amount that we have with current obligations that would be I guess our balance is twelve million five hundred and twelve thousand nine hundred eighty five. And Senate bill four sixty two mmhm that fiscal impact would be found on page four it is thirty eight point five million. And Senate bill six forty eight if you see on page four is twenty five point two one three seven thirteen million okay thank you. Okay representative Capri you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair over here and doctor Johnson thank you so much for your testimony and I apologize if I missed that can you tell me a little bit about and the tuition and fees for these programs if they're the same as other undergraduate or post secondary programs in the same institution. So tuition and fees are the same as any other student however most of the programs that we are talking about here today in Arkansas but also nationally have a fee that is associated with that program so there's an additional fee to being in one of our programs. Okay any other questions from members of the committee. All right C. nine thank you so much for your presentation at Senate Dr Markham if you will come up and just go through this fiscal impact for senate bill four fifty seven. Thank you. Yes. I guess representative eleven. The manager committee members also take into consideration based upon senator Chesterfield question the individual fiscal impact of each of these three bills that when it comes time to vote for instance and and we take these in order Senator Davis is bill Senate bill four fifty seven as the one point four million of fiscal impact. If if we pass that bill then that one point four million will be need to be deducted from the twelve point five million in the overall amount of funds that are available everything that had to be recalculated. Thank you. Thank you representive eleven miss Markham they are doctor mark and if you'll just we just want you to go through the fiscal impact statements for each bill's recognized your food you may know each of them now or as just a just Senate bill four okay and so as Senator Hickey walked us through how these fiscal impacts are different from what the FNA typically provides of but but the I think that the big the big picture really is that final page and it's going to be paid it's. Six. Sh five on the final water impact amount so step one gives you the total available resources for scholarships step two gives you all of the. The expenses for scholarships including the one that was just presented and then step three is just a calculation of that difference I did want to point out that anything that gets passed in these new scholarships even if it passes into the negative I mean you could pass multiple things today anything that would get in today we would have to pro rate well how we distributed funds among any of the new scholarship so you could hypothetically pass everything in we would just have to I write everything down so the scholarship wouldn't get the full one point four that the fiscal impact statement projects. With the but we would not language have to be present in the bills to pro rate them well it or in it is in the the over arching bill on how new scholarships are added in introduce it basically says in the event that there's not enough revenue to cover all of the approved scholarships that we would have to pro rate those it would be a pro rata basis across everything except academic challenge so academic challenge would always be funded fully Senator Hickey I'm saying that correctly right. I can challenge what I would recommend that fully and then everything else would be pro rata based on available funds I'm gonna recognize Senator Hickey on them that. That that is correct and I believe what the Director Markham is saying that that that would possibly work that way I would guard against that Yeah just because you know what what would happen there is you would have to proprio read across. I have no idea why that happens go right ahead yeah I wasn't advocating for that but that's how the process would work there was more work proved and funds were available it would but rated across everything except for active challenge. That's right because it is it is it is our the way the bill is written that we would always play the academic challenge first no matter what if we were to be short of money of course that's where that would also at that time they'll come before a L. C. which would probably trigger a whole lot of discussion of you know if we have to start pro rated pro rating down right so that would that would that would be why would guard against it because our membership will not understand that the reason the main reason that we're going through this is to figure the yearly cash flow and try to stop and try to work within within those or we're going to create a whole lot more confusion right thank you okay thank you senator Elliott you have a question. yes madam chair are we going to vote on each one of these as they are presented or we're going to win and we're going to hear them all of them both okay thank you representative back. Thank you madam chair of the pro rating and I apologize for not maybe if this is her house at exactly down is it a percentage by get to two percent cut is that uh is a five dollars you're making a million dollars cut you know how it I think it's a percentage I believe that that's how it's worded. I'm gonna let Senator Hickey answer your questions or representative that right if we if we ever were to get into that situation of course would have to look at that though the way that we actually had written that if that if that were to happen at that time curry and along with the Arkansas Legislative Council would to come together it says that it would be done on a pro rata basis in that we would come up with the how we calculated Director Markham is right I believe that to we have to do a probably on a percentage basis and extrapolate all that out to each and every scholarship. But again it does allow that if funds are not available that's when we would all come together meeting figure this out over how we would do it. So it's a little bit more than just pro rate it doing a pro rated down. All right any other questions Senator Chesterfield you're recognized for a question. Yes I guess I need to know how we arrived at the one point four million at thirty eight twenty so and so help me understand how we got there on how many students is it based is that we're basing it on what what we basing all of the numbers on am I may have to bring my deputy director up to give you exact numbers but I can tell you that's based on current enrollment in these approved programs so is the number of students that would be served well if if Senator Davis is bill is new. We can't really base it on that can we well the print her scholarship bill is new but the academic programs are not new so those those are existing programs with students currently enrolled that are not currently eligible because they don't have a nineteen ACT so they would gain eligibility through her bill or what number are we basing it on is there a particular number of students June home these would go on help me understand it yes ma'am my name's Nick form the Assistant Director finances Division of higher ed and forward senate bill four fifty seven this is based off of currently there's around sixty students in the program so we estimated a growth in the program but to a hundred students per year is what was based off of. So through the four years of students receiving the award based off highway one hundred students a year that's how we got to the one point four million dollars by that year for having for years with the students. Thousand per student or. No ma'am you know in in the first year of the award the students receive a thousand dollars for that any challenge second year they would receive four thousand third year they received four thousand in the fourth year they received five thousand. So we took by the fourth year you have a hundred students receiving five thousand a hundred receipt to Under receiving for that okay I get it we'll discuss how you out the other madam chair I missed your how we got to the other numbers as we get to that bill yes okay please keep that in mind and I'll react but we want to make sure that everybody has the ability to ask questions on both the policy so the substantive policy bill and the fiscal impact statement in the process of humility not information I think it is important that we understand how we arrived at the figures that are being presented to us thank you and and just for clarification tuition cost is the same or different. I might have to have a S. same thank okay right so any other yes yes Senator Hester and go that it you're saying about this bill and the other bills that you wish an amount would be the same. Well I'm saying I think what was testament there was a question about if the tuition with this program is the same as other students who are in higher at so it's the same same you know this is how much a credit hour cost is going to be the same for my child versus somebody that would qualify for this this program all right thank you. That makes sense all right okay okay. Any other questions. Represent back one more question our discord so not allow us our little bit confused so the announcmenet I understand what you're saying it it's going to grow two hundred students and figuring out a way goes to so the question is then. With the. As compared to a normal and and and the tuition is the same so then there's but there's a fee for the program. Correct. Those are gonna be questions probably better answered by you I think that that the answer that you got was the cost charged by the institution of higher ed is going to be comparable to any other academic program that a student might be engaged in so the scholarship amount is also the same. Okay. Thank that I mean I'm I bring that up because we do have some scholarships like the nursing school that tuition is probably not the same as somebody who's an academic challenge scholarships I mean that that's one factor that you need to understand is committee members you have academic challenge scholarship which is going to be your traditional you know four year institute of higher at your workforce challenge scholarship may be a difference tuition then academic challenge and then the nursing school scholarships that may be a different tuition. Then your academic challenge scholarship that's one factor that's not in here not to complicate everything right but that that's correct but we don't base the scholarship on the tuition right and I understand in. Right there are very few students that receive this that's going to the the lottery is going to cover their complete cost of tuition fees right it supplemental it doesn't pay for everything right so if you're an English major at ASU your tuition is going to be one thing or if your a welder state welding students were workforce challenge your tuition and fees are gonna be looking for something different but the scholarships are not based on the tuition but it's just something that was asked and. In this case and I think it's. Point of information following three bring it up to so I can confuse everybody even more okay thank you and no other questions representative back where you finished. I'm fine for now thank you ma'am okay all right thank you all right we will move to the next bill. That would be Senator Elliot. State your name for the record and then you're recognized to present proof president senate bill four sixty two. I thank you madam chair Joyce Elliott our state senator district thirty one and members how you can look at this bill and see is pretty short so this should not take a long time for us to understand what is asking but the impact is what's really important here when it comes to kids lives. When we first set up the lottery legislation we had two criteria to be eligible student can have a two point five grade point average for that student can have made nineteen higher on the ACT. And we thought that was a pretty good way to go because we know that there are some kids are going to do well on the test others who are not some who are going to have a grade point average that is a more of a projector more of a predictor and this is not it this is no longer a questionable which isn't far more about of a better predictor the two point five vote or the nineteen. And the reason that's the case I mean there are lots of studies that been done and to back this up is that it's it's a simple thing to just pick a number and say this is it that's really simple. What you miss if you have not been paying attention to a student who has a two point five despite what we might say despite what we might see about grade inflation it shows that a student has persisted over a matter of time who could take that persistence into are college and career center speak. And that's why we had both those eligibility is. And in an effort. To have a scholarship protocol that would guarantee students a certain amount of money because we had done so when we first pass the bill I think it was five thousand dollars which was indeed a mistake. But we put that amount out there and pretty quickly things didn't go well because we started giving out scholarships the very first year when we should've waited but we didn't. We we didn't put that money in arrears of aside so that we could have it to going forward to fall back on we did not do that. So then predictably we run into problems. And when we ran into problems that five thousand dollars and it been promised to students we decided to take away our I said we we decided to take away one of those criteria. And it we decided to take away the grade point average that has hugely and negatively impacted several kids. And in a very out size way it has impacted kids of color. You have on your desk if you see that something that looks like this. On on your desk. I just I ask department of ed for I think was the last five years show me who got scholarships by the numbers and you can start with twenty sixteen and if you start from the bottom and go up you can pretty much get a pretty good idea of who's getting scholarships year after year after year you can see the disproportionately you can see the in equity the students didn't do anything wrong to get their scholarships it is not dead who made this decision thank you do anything wrong. We in my estimation did something wrong because we decided who would be the winner and who would be the losers. And this is in a case where. Once in this state and others voted for scholarship that they thought was going to be equitable across the board it isn't nearly that way so all my bill proposes to do. Is to add back in the criteria of two point five oh grade point average because what we're doing is what Georgia did a long time ago that we learned from. We said in two thousand nine when we were writing legislation we will not make the same mistake that Georgia made in that we will require the kids who need the scholarships the most those who are the least able financially paying for those who are more able by using the nineteen that's exactly what we're doing. So I am asking you. To put it back. And then of course of course you're going to look at the impact statement look at the fiscal impact statement and probably either grow some hair a blow off here you have on your head one of the two. But I will remind you. This is the result of these years of students not getting the opportunity they were promised and I think the last thing I will have this to say about that next to last is. Lottery is an endeavor of chance and so to me it's always been baffling. First of all that we even promised somebody five thousand dollars. In an endeavor of chance. And then we made it worse by saying yeah it's still going to be an endeavor chats we're going to promise somebody an amount of money on chance but we're going to take away from some and give it to the others and do Georgia anyway. Because that is exactly what we're doing and we was so cognizant of that but we were not going to create a huge impact would be and what we were doing. So. Now we've got this inequity and I think the way to change and I've said this for years this is not anything new for me it's an endeavor of chance what in the world we promised somebody if a certain amount of money based on an endeavor a chance so when we talked about for reading money that does make sense. Why should I think that if I'm going gambling I'm I'm I noticed like I got five thousand dollars let in the last two weeks so I'm going to get five thousand dollars is the next two weeks that's what we're doing with the public see that we have in place. So when you look at the impact you're blown away by it think about what happened to these kids who didn't even get a chance. And think about Shilts itself and that what we ought to be doing is deciding that we're going to fund the scholarships. But we have enough time to alert people. You shouldn't be guaranteed a certain amount of money. You should back out the cost whatever's going to be and what we have is what you get. And it should be different every year because you don't get a promise on a lottery. And just before you guys came and we were discussing the lottery and another bill. And Mr Hagler said something that I think maybe he is the head of a lottery he said when you depend on one matrix one item out of matrices that's probably not a good thing to do you should limit yourself to just that. I think that's a pretty good thing to apply to what we're talking about here. Limiting ourselves to just that is not a good idea. And finally I would just tell you you know I just wrote down a few of these you can Google it and get it about which one of these ways is the most it's two point five grade point average GPA whatever it is or the testing are great which one is the most reliable and you will get in a second. All kind of background information research that's done that tells you quickly no the best way if we're going to choose the best way is a grade point average we're doing it the way this with the fact. That's what I'm asking you. Look at look at what I'd ask you to look at on your on your on your desk. And then decide whether or not we're doing the right thing by all of our kids we're not. That's why you need to pass this bill thank you. Right are there any questions from members of the committee represent Lowery you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chairman. Senator Elliot you you referenced and moved on from it pretty quick you reference grade grade inflation and I know I've I've raised a number of times that we used to get a report in that it kind of went away but it is a real thing it does exist correct group grade inflation in the state of Arkansas not by the way we've been getting a report but we have no reliable way of measuring grade inflation in Arkansas and here's what I think we've been doing it but we are using that nineteen to to try and you know and as a as a measure to determine if there is grade inflation by how did you do otherwise. We are using the nineteen because in nineteen eighty four Oklahoma decided that nineteen was going to be the measure of whether or not a student is ready for college. All we did was adopted. And even the ACT told us that was not a good way to use it even the city but we did it anyway because it's easy and that's what we like to believe but yeah we got something but is probably good thing we start getting it because it was absolutely unreliable and invalid. But if if I may follow up with the nineteen was not something that the high schools were setting or even ACT it was what colleges were setting as the the scoring at which the decision had to be made about students being remediated that if you were bowled nineteen or below or below nineteen you had to be remediated to be able to do college work so why is that not an acceptable standard in terms of of making the scholarship money available because the standard was compromised in the first place that's what I'm telling you Oklahoma chosen number ACT was saying this is not the way this ought to be used. But when we look for something we just like Oklahoma did this let's do it that is why and for years we have been using something that is totally unreliable because there are students all over this state all over this country who are making less than nineteen and doing fine. That is not a predictor we just talked ourselves into believing it is. But the folks who are going to do better on the test one thing we do know the folks who had the privilege and the opportunity to know how to take test better are having more to draw what they're gonna do better on the test that's what we end up with kids who are the most need. Having their pain with their families play the lottery whatever we've got the kids for the most need funding those who need it less. That's what we're doing. In measurement I just have one more question. We have And I and I I would agree with you if you're talking about a one shot deal but we have ACT allows super scoring we have also put aside money for everyone we pay for the state of Arkansas pays for that one that first ACT test as part of the assessment and then we've also provided additional money for students to take take it a second time. So we're we're not leaving it to chance is not just a one time shot there are multiple opportunities for them to be able to make a nineteen or above cumulatively so because of all of those different provisions that we've made how can we say that that is not an acceptable standard because we are leaving out the standard that is the most predictable one that's why. It's as I said these kids who give the scholarships didn't do anything wrong. We did something wrong we're leaving out. Sure that best tells us that this project will kid will do in college. And we're comfortable with that because we've done it for so long. Thank you madam chair. Representive eleven. The cost would be for Dr Markham When when we look at GPAs we tend to look at I want to. Point two five scale. Do we have any data is higher it have the data to show any predictive analytics when we're looking at a two five or two seven five or three. Where the balance is on success rates based upon that out going high school GPA we have we have some research about GPA and and I'd agree with Senator Elliot on on pretty much all of the points that she made a. The nineteen is not terribly productive and it's really inadequate when you look at college preparation it's it's lower than it should be to have any kind of real confidence and how the student will of persistent to graduate if we really wanted to ensure a success we would set a little higher we looked so we did some analytics on the data that we had available if we're comfortable if we decide that nineteen is kind of the area we want to be with ACT the GPA that correlates to the confidence level of of the nineteen is really more like a two point seven four we're gonna use two point seven five four for ease of calculation of those to the stability of of success are are roughly equivalent to so if if the nineteen is where as policy makers you decided you want to live the two point seven four is roughly. The same as far as GPA on that four point scale so um you know I I'm kind of playing both sides of the issue here and that the nineteen is a bit arbitrary but it's where we've landed in kind of what we decided we could afford but if we're gonna choose that arbitrary measure that the corresponding GPA is closer to two point seven four. Thank you. Bragg representative back your I have represented back then represent Godfrey in center back on. Thank you madam chair so I guess my question is. And silicon so where do you come up with a thirty eight point five hi I was looking at the financial statement and I just. Just got just got plugged in there so I mean is that showing that the difference in the nineteen in the two point five this is how many students would fall in that category you know I I we yes Sir using using the the data that we have of the high school students we hope we only have the public school information we don't have a lot of the private schools but using that students that did not have an ACT score had ACT score below nineteen they had a two point five GPA. They were right around twenty seven hundred students a year. For twenty twenty it was two thousand six hundred twenty four twenty one was two thousand seven hundred and four. So what we use factoring and yet we don't have any of the the private school information we used a number of two thousand seven hundred and fifty. Dividends each year to be receiving the scholarship and that's we did the same as we do with the prior scholarship where we did the one hundred each year getting the award amount to get to a four year cumulative total we did that same thing only using two thousand seven hundred fifty students receiving this scholarship each time rather than one hundred. Follow. Yes. So but the. Your your this section you're making is that everyone in that slot would you say there's twenty seven hundred students in that slot is something you're recognized this program is that everyone of those within applying go to college and that's not necessarily true yes Sir we were trying to determine a maximum cost okay so that would be the maximum okay. Yeah I I think we're trying to be as conservative as we can to estimate this when I say that I mean on the money side of it not necessarily on the other side that any okay I representive Godfrey. Thank you madam chair Senator Elliot or maybe even doctor working you could talk about that it's just going back to the ACT an order if you could talk about some of the research about cultural and linguistic bias not particularly if the test but if standardized tests in general and how some of those challenges can be mitigated in a classroom setting particularly for diverse learners and therefore how that may be helpful to use a GPA instead of instead of that Senator test score yeah. Well I can see. What I've talked a lot you're you're asking about pedagogy and that is outside of my area of expertise so I'm going to pass this law. Really yes at it is real I mean the. Some people think about this as you know B. and cultural bias and is it's not so much that anybody does anything intentionally but here's one thing if you had more experiences than I had when I was growing up like you got to go on vacation you got to do all these things and you just have more from which to draw you know you're gonna use that the chances though the chances of Senate us tasks joining on a a lot of things and examples that as somebody who is underprivileged or maybe of a of a different cultural background the. Things that seem so simple we will put in a test that a student is never even seen or heard of before and we don't even think about that kind of thing when you talk about when you go on vacation llevaba. And there a lot of kids I was going on vacation what you know what I'm not going to drop and something that I did on a vacation. Because you know I never won I'm just talking that way but here's the bigger issue most of the kids who would be make a two point five but not make that nineteen have come from even from schools when they didn't have a lot of the opportunities that a lot of content when I first came to the legislature sixty five percent of the schools in this state did not have a P. class sixty five percent. I was able to work with people to get that passed don't you think those kids who had that better opportunity could do better on this test and the other thing that there's something called stereo type threats. And that means that when you can to keep continue to hear time and time again. Like kids are not going to do as well on this test kit kids of color not gonna do as well on this test you might not think it doesn't get in your head and you start to believe it and you start to question yourself. But it does and it has an effect and there is research is called the Ogbu OBG you the Ogbu study that will tell you about stereotype threat so that is the difference I can be made with the teacher in a classroom I had kids who didn't speak well kids that I knew were very smart but they didn't I had kids who were fantastic his academically I would blow that standardized test now what am I supposed to do when I know that kid. Is is a smart kid a can do well as opposed to like I'm sorry you can make the nineteen. Because we are betrayed we decided you had to make a nineteen that's what's at stake here I can tell you people all I'm not kidding when other people who made more than nineteen people who made sixteen and twelve. On a test. But I know I read about a young men and not in an hour that he's an engineer now he was constantly told you could never do that because you can't pass this test. He helped land the last whatever was on the move on on the moon. That's what we're talking about here. We don't have enough kids. To disadvantaged kids like this. Are there other questions. Represent god for your finished center Beckham did you have a question now okay all right are there any questions on the fiscal impact statement page four is the total amount. Any questions all right thank you I'm I forgot to let Senator Davis clothes for her bill okay and so I'm gonna bring you all three back up and let you close and then we'll go up and then we'll take that all right thank you mention I apologize to senator Davis all right next thank you Senator Eads. Senate bill six forty eight. State your name for the record you're recognized. Thank you madam chair Lance Eads state Senate district seven they work with the Department higher education on this about year and a half now we first started meeting this is Senate bill six forty eight to be called the Arkansas challenge plus to work hand in hand with the original Arkansas challenge one of the biggest needs that we found when it comes to college in it no fault of of the students is the initial hurdle of the cost of getting started that first year in out of necessity when we made changes a number years ago the legislative body we changes they mentioned earlier that you only get a thousand dollars the first year that rose to four thousand the second four thousand thirty five thousand fourth so it's hard for some people to overcome the challenges of only getting that one thousand dollars scholarship the first year so this bill is going to do something to hopefully and remedy some of that would require the students to meet all the current eligibility standards three that they would receive that base amount and then based on the information that's provided in the in the fast the that would provide them an extended award above that base award in thousand dollar increments to potentially move them up to that five thousand dollar mark the first year and then go even across throughout their four years of school. there's a maximum of five years from all our resources of the receiving the the original challenge scholarship they would read receive one thousand first year and then potentially one thousand to four thousand dollars additionally the first year to reach that five thousand dollar maximum the good thing about this bill that it does provided to gives us some flexibility as you can see in the fiscal impact that it potentially set of our if we had our maximum that would be up to twenty five million dollars this we put language in this bill that said and the key is on page two the lines nineteen twenty This scholarship amounts order this subchapter will very may vary from year to year based on the amount of funding available so this will not touch the funding the original challenge scholarship it will be fun and after that and then based on the available net proceeds that we could use the the Department could promulgate rules to see how much is available to give out and then have a quarterly so if there's twelve million dollars that we could have access to at that time that's potentially what these this award level could be based on a broken out by the number of students if there's ten million dollars available it would be that level if if there's five million dollars available it would be that level it could be broken out so it doesn't impact the original lottery scholarship and hopefully within overcome some of those and challenges that the first year students have to get in that door and get the program started so and I'll be happy to answer any questions adjourned over for doctor mark with you anything you want to. A cover that I have a question sure and so under the current so what what your bill would do would start to try to get them to five thousand in the first years that correct correct so I under your bill at the total amount that one of the students would be able to get is twenty thousand is that correct for all four years all four year that's correct okay under the current so if you're not a part of this category of recipients then how much would you be getting. Fourteen I believe is the total you can get over twenty years correct. So would they have the potential to provide an additional six thousand dollars to students of need. Over the four year period. Okay so just based on need not based on okay so somebody who scores a nineteen on the ACT and somebody his scores of thirty four on the ACT. The person that scores of thirty four ACT gets fourteen thousand total and scholarship funds and those persons courted nineteen gets twenty. Potential fire for the need that's correct potentially yes okay. Senator Chesterfield you're recognized for a question thank you but inserted Senator uses still the same nineteen and there's no no provision whatsoever for great point to come into getting the money the first year is that now yes ma'am that's correct. So why are you trying to help people who are able to already get into school and those who need it the most can't get any money. Senator they may not be able to get in right now just because they score nineteen doesn't mean they can afford that first year whatever the cost may be so if there a couple two three thousand dollar short this may be the thing that gets me over that hump and help them get started but there was no thought at all of looking at those kids who do not but whatever reasons out okay how many times we allow them to take the test of nobody's prepped them to take the test they're not going to pass the test in every school district we have we don't have academic prep duly Dr Martin. And well I believe that we do I think that we're still doing the ACT prep program but I would have asked my book desi friends you saying yes how successful has it been in poor areas may ask the commissioner that. if you'll come for place to the table. Johnny Kidd part of education and we seen an exponential increase in the number of students who are getting to the A. C. T. in poor areas across the state. Exponential I would not say that we have seen that and and I don't have data ready to present to talk about today the ACT prep is something that is available that something that districts can do with a number of of of the funds that they have in ESA funds and other funds we do see some success for students that take these prep courses but to say that we in appreciable numbers are saying it and the the economic you economically deprived parts of the state I don't think I could present that to me is it required that it be provided in in in those communities or is it something that they cannot cannot it it's not I don't I'm not aware of any requirements it's is not mandated it's mandated that they provide the the test and that's what I understand it's mandated and provide that yes that's three growing in given to but there is no mandate that we prepare them on how on the skills and see because test taking people keep thinking to me that if you test well you're very smart test taking is a skill it is not a gift. And that's what's so troubling to me is we deal with this issue because we have decided that if a child can score nineteen that means he or she is very smart it means they have the skill to be successful on that test would you agree I would agree yes thank you. Thank you representive Lowery or. Recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair Senator Eads If I understand correctly the the the fast the the results of the past for used is kind of the kicker on balancing out so if the student has it has. Gotten information on the fast for that says that they are in need of more than the one thousand dollars in their freshman year and we're leveling this out does that not also kick in federal monies like Pell grants money that is is going to be able to help them be able to afford those for several years when the scholarship level is lower that is correct but it's for a favor remember correctly we currently don't have any needs they state scholarship so this would be something we had in the past it different times we don't have anything currently so this would be the only thing that that might be kicked in at the state level to go into addition to those federal dollars okay in and if the student is. Not able to collect as much in the for several years they do have the option. Going to a two year college of the third of the cost correct thank you that is is correct yes okay all right. Thank you manager. All right are there any other questions. All right. And that's one. I'm page four twenty five point two one three seven one three. Okay. Are no more questions okay if Senator Eads if you'll stay right there Senator Davis and Senator Elliot well I'll go to the table a little unconventional but this is the only way to make this fair Senator Davis will go first and will close for your bills. I'm so very sorry but. Your first. Senator Davis you're recognized to close for senate bill four fifty seven. Thank you madam chair members of the committee this is a little strange no pressure and I'm so very. So. I just would like to close by saying this bill is not just about a social and issue feel good bill and it's about helping those with intellectual disabilities continue their education for gainful employment. And many of you know my story in this room and and I have a two year old with down syndrome. So this bill feels a little personal to me I don't want to cry but I do want to share it just a little bit to help and hopefully just gain and perspective and depth on this bill might support and. Many families may find out that their child has down syndrome or an intellectual disability. They're told from there and medical provider that their child may never walk or talk or live independently or go to school and learn in a typical classroom or hold down a job. I was twelve weeks pregnant when I found out it really would have down syndrome and sixteen weeks when that was confirmed. Luckily my cardiologists did not give me the same report that so many doctors give parents that I know for me and after me certainly. He asked if I'd seen all the amazing typical things that people with down syndrome we're dealing in society today. He told me about them graduating high school driving. Lobbying modeling excelling at sports participating in Special Olympics. Holding down gainful employment living longer than ever before in going to college. I loved Everly I knew I did but quite honestly I was terrified I didn't know what it meant what it would mean and to have a child with down syndrome I didn't know what it would mean to our other kids what our family would look like and I don't know what the future would hope. But that doctor. He was the first one that gave me permission to treat. The hope for the future of my daughter a child with down syndrome in a world where so few have down syndrome. Fifty sixty seventy years ago. People with intellectual disabilities were put an institution to some by their families left alone they were is staying on their family and on society. But today we see what they're accomplishing. We see him as I said going to college. Excelling at sports at their jobs that many things. So often we're told that people with disabilities and their quality of life is not the same not valued the same as typical humans. People who don't have disabilities. But we know this isn't true we know it's not true because we see what they're accomplishing we see how far they've come in just half a century. I think it's very important that we allow people with intellectual disabilities to have an opportunity to qualify for this scholarship so they can continue their education. At an institution of higher learning. So that they can have a they can be three times more likely and to have gainful employment in their lifetime it's an important step in showing and not just with our words but with our actions through legislation that people with intellectual disabilities. Deserve the same chance to go to college turn scholarship funds to finish their education as typical people. With that I'm closed and I ask forget that thank you. Thank you senator Elliott you're recognized to close for senate bill. Thank you for sixty two okay. Thank you madam chair. we sent a little bit this is like being in the pageant and here the three final step here I don't know but if. Really nice that's what we need to realign. I just want to because when I when I used the doctor on those name I should have said Claude Steele Dr Abu has a on another study that is pertinent to what we're talking about here though because. He he talks about in his study that especially with the kids of color and this is relevant as long as you remember what's on that sheet that you have in front of you. It doesn't matter so much about even the income because the stereotype threat is so strong that even kids who are from Home that is is one that looks like a shiny object out there even those kids it's not about the money it's about the environment they're in even those kids oftentimes will not do well on standardized test. That's the shaker heights study you can look it up. But what I what I want to leave you with is. We made kids a promise. And and kind of like a what representative Davis said based on our promise to them. They started dreaming about what they're gonna be able to do. And. We made a promise to them and we broke it. And we've not seen fit to restore since that time. It is simply not fair. You can even look at the counties where people play the lottery the most. And you can see the incredible disparity that where people are investing in the lottery. And their kids are not getting the scholarships. So I hope we will be thoughtful enough and bold enough. To think about reconstructing the whole thing. Because none of us none of us. We plan our lives on a lottery. And that's exactly what we are trying to force a lot of the funds to do rather than treated like what it is. I have no reason to believe. You get a five thousand dollar scholarship every year on money that is chance money. I don't know another way you can be fair to everybody especially those kids she made a promise to we made a promise to. It doesn't work that way we all know economics better than that. And I can't in a state of three million people. We don't have enough people to keep throwing people away. I'm not figure out a way for everybody to get a chance. We've done a really good job. With workforce. The thing that we failed to invest in time and time again. Is higher at. We will never reach our potential that we are capable. I'm reaching everywhere for every choosing between workforce I'm I'm not we don't have higher ed funded and that's kind of what we've been doing. So with that I'm closed and I'm asking you to think about all those kids who dreamed and all those kids representative representative on that chart that I showed you. We never got a chance that they are paying their parents invested in. And we are doing what Georgia did we swore we wouldn't do it but that's exactly what we do thank you. Thank you senator aids you're recognized to close for Senate bill six forty eight thank you madam chair members the challenge plus it's just that it's a plus to the academic challenge scholarships and it gives us an opportunity to move one step further down the road to eliminating a nother hurdle for the students who maybe have struck a struggle getting started in the process while at the same time and eliminating hopefully one more barrier it also allows us to keep the the current challenge scholarships all that and then be fiscally responsible with where we're at right now in the program this is just a supplement but it allows us to keep moving the current one four four without any worry worrying about tampering with any at all and I would appreciate a good vote thanks for your time. Thank you. And I just I want I think Senator Hickey for his I think financial passion As to really make sure that we're able to fund the scholarships it's really important because in the past we've basically been put it on a credit card and we've been making these promises to these kids that these scholarships will be out there and they would be there for them but we really had no idea because we never knew the cash flow if the promises that we were making to these kids if we would actually be able to come through with that or not and so I just want to thank him for this Senator Davis I want to thank you for your passion for your sweet daughter and for the for the kids I I was in the parade on Saturday with a friend of mine who has down syndrome and you can dream Beck because he is graduated from the university of Arkansas and is an amazing young man Senator Elliot I just wanna thank you for your passion for kids and minorities I mean is so clear you your whole I just laid of career has been about that and I'm just wanna thank you for for the work you do and then center is I also want to thank you for the passion for your passion for kids who need financial assistance and desire to make it there and so with that I just I I really appreciate this process And I want to thank the members of this committee because it's important that we go through this process process thoughtfully and with all the knowledge and with that am I will yield now to the members of the Senate committee what is before you are these three bills so I will yield to the members of the Senate committee what is the pleasure of the Senate Committee. What we will do is we'll take a vote I suppose on each one. And then whichever bill has five votes we will pass them to the to the House. So Are your motion for senate bill. Four fifty seven. Motion and a second okay and we're going to call the roll. Senator Chesterfield. Senator Chesterfield. Senator English. Senator English. Senator Eads. I. Senator Leding. I Senator Sturch. Senator Sturch. Senator Beckham. Hi Senator Elliott. Senator Elliot. Senator Irvin. I. Okay. That vote is for all rights and for non voting okay we'll go to the night it does not pass I will add Senate bill four sixty two. Motion to pass second please call the roll. Senator Chesterfield. I. Senator English. Senator English. Senator Eads. Senator Eads. Senator Leding. I Senator Sturch Senator Sturch. Senator Beckham. I. Senator Elliot. Hi Senator Irvin. Senator Irvin. Okay the voter's forty four four eyes for non voting the bill does not pass Senate bill six forty eight Senator Eads is there a motion motion do pass is there a second. Second please call the roll. Senator Chesterfield. Senator Chesterville. Senator English. Senator English. Senator Eads. I Senator Leding. I Senator Sturch Senator Sturch Senator Beckham. I Senator Elliot. Senator Elliot. Senator Irvin. Senator Irvin. Three eyes five not voting the bill does not pass. So we're not sending any bills at this present time over to the house joint committee is there any other business to come before this committee. All right C. nine we're adjourns.