State Agencies & Govt'l Affairs - House and Senate

Chairs As corn this meeting is called to order. Committee members thank you for being in attendance today we've got a late the agenda. We'll get started with the we've already went over the preliminaries in our first two meetings this is the third and final meeting before come back into session on Wednesday. Our first item on the day's agenda Senate bill seven twenty four Senator Leding are you against. I would just have a state. Ten by yourself to the committee and you're recognized president Senate bill seven twenty four. Thank you Mr chairman vice chair members of the committees and what looks like many other of our colleagues just a quick background Senate bill seven twenty four earlier this session because the pandemic meant that we could have no page program I recurs in junior high and high school students to put together an online program to teach students about redistricting in Arkansas about two dozen students participated we met about once a week online for about forty minutes from various experts including a bipartisan experts from the national conference of state legislatures and the call was ultimately to have the students produce maps and we pick one and I would present it before the committees and so that is what you have before you today is a map drawn by one of the students participated their name is J. C. their student and Fayetteville and I have comments from J. C. but with the thinking was when they put together this map but otherwise knowing I have a long agenda I will make myself available to questions. Committee members you've heard presentation of Senate bill seven twenty four. Any other questions from committee members. Senator Hendren you're recognized for a question. Thank you. It's. They just that they just insulted you badly. You may get okay we're good thank you Mr it's it's Senator Pitsch I don't know Senator hundreds well we had both been okay for a question so only you Senator Hendren doesn't have a question is that correct. I thought I will take it off the board center bridge you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman Senator Leding it's is same question I asked a lot how may counties do you have divided up in this presentation. I haven't done a complete count I know that there are a number of counties that are divided that is not something I would have done if I was drawing the map of but I will know since it's drawn so much attention from other bills that this map does split Pulaski County among two congressional districts K. as someone and I'll say it follow up real quick but it's in talking to my county judges my mayor's a mayor who had each of side of his main street or into different congressional districts it's extremely tough for everybody to get representation so Senate again not the first time I've asked that question yeah and I I do share those concerns and talking with the student after they submitted the map they were just using some different criteria to decide how to divide things up but I do share those concerns. Senator Rapert you're recognized for a question. Thank you senator leading in my looking at this residence six counties they're split. It just in the middle of the just in the middle of the map just in the second congressional district along I think that's a fair estimate fair estimate. Based on comments previously is that posing problems for you a yes as I noted earlier if I were drawing the map I would try to get as many counties intact as possible or thank you. Representative Springer you're recognized for a question. Good afternoon thank you Mr chair Senator Leding I would just like to hear some of the comments that the student made with respect to the map you said you would not just tell us a few of those comments I'm just interested to hear a couple of phones absolutely a J. C. chose to try to keep of minority populations together she said so she and congressional district three includes two of the largest expanded communities in the state I'm sure that you also felt that larger cities would have more in common as wood rural areas and things will come with other rural areas she tried to keep larger cities United as well keeping large rural areas you know. Senator Hammer you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I just I just wanna make sure I understand this is this is someone else's map that you're presenting but was part of an exercise that you work with them on is that correct that's correct that committed to the students that if they participated in the project and came up with a map that I would present one before the committees and that's what services are they in the bill are they in the room today or do you know if they're watching online it's possible some of them might be watching online I don't believe that anybody's here in the room today okay well being sensitive center and we have a follow up I do thank you Mr sorry recognized thank you being sensitive fact that they're watching and this is part of the process appreciate them being in it to the point as far as what the what the top three reasons other than I think you mentioned to where there any other reasons that they chose to go about it the way they did other than keeping large city populations together and minority populations together. Those from what she sent me those were there they're driving reasons are thank you. Say no further questions from committee members we have One person signed up. To speak against the bill. Or Clark. Sorry we missed you're recognized for a question. Mon Love. Senator Clark having trouble with your might would use good over and use another might play. Okay that's better. Central Leding yes it looks like by my count we spoke at least eleven counties but I'm looking specifically we split almost ever that I represent of. The when you mention the minority populations I said okay maybe we came in and got of. The downtown hot springs Malvern Benton but then we reach out into the western part of Hot Spring County. woods most Austin county is rule but Westerhof Spring County is rule southwestern Garland County is rule any idea what the thinking is in putting all that in district two. My understanding from the composition was that in trying to keep larger cities together they wanted to unite hot springs with little rock. Yes but the western Hot Spring County has nothing to do with hot springs. I don't want to speak for the student again I would distress that you everybody participated the region right high school students many of whom might not of might not be as familiar with other parts of the state as we are and so I can't necessarily explain some of the decisions that they might have made a drawing this particular map okay thank you okay thank you. Thank vote no further questions. Representative Jane you're recognized for a question. Senator Leding I'm right here. How many cans is split. I thank someone to the county eleven eleven again which is not something I would have done if I were drawing the map okay could you could you vote for this. I was expecting a question of I will say of the maps that I've seen and I know there's been a number filed since last I looked of the maps that city and I would vote for this one before other once okay this is not the map I would pick of the ones that have been filed I will say to my knowledge this is the only map that's been filed that was written completely free of any input or interest from what lawmakers okay so you're not count you Sir don't for a moment of above other would right yes thank you. Other questions from committee members. Senator Clark you're recognized Senator one you said any interest or what. But if the map was drawn free of any interest or input from lawmakers. Okay of. Other than me tell not to split counties of mine was. Okay what I said to my understanding or knowledge or I think that's good enough. If other questions from committee members. You saying none represent us Senator Leding we've got one person signed up to speak against the bill before you you can close thank you Mr Richelle. Britain are you in the audience you would just come to the table please. Those in the those in attendance if you're here and you want to speak for against the bill make sure you sign up to sign up sheet is just outside the door. And they'll they'll get it to me and I'll recognize you to speak just make sure you tell us which bill here to speak for against miss Britain you're recognized speak against the Senate bill seven twenty four yes my name is Rochelle Britain I'm from Jacksonville and the I spoke at a Thursday against the against the a lot of the proposals that would split Pulaski County as I call it slice and dice. Of. I Senator Leding I counted how many counties this split it split twelve counties. Sullivan S. you like way out here what a Outen someplace way out and some weird places like whose bright idea was it to split Cross County. That's not the. But in a car out couple of areas in the northern prior Cross County roll them in the first district in the rest of the fourth that does. Makes no sense and and who brought IT it what is the the second district contains no in this proposal contains no whole County it It this the second district as proposed and is is a good House entirely up pieces of counties. Include L. Pulaski it looks like maybe the biggest one but it's just. You know just indefensible to me. not when a lot of the arguments I well the complaints I'm hearing not just from Democrats but for Republicans is. Is is the split fewer counties this time around that happened in the past. This is you know and and this and this one would just split even more the one that the one that to me makes sense it might be something that could be adopted some of the. To some of some of the ideas on the third district is how he splits Carroll County because the split this map uses in Carroll County is roughly equivalent to the to the traditional judicial districts for the bill council seats. And basically a budget request for but Sirius brings in the third district and Berryville in the first district. And I've kind of wondered if that may be the best solution to keep. Two. Tell the to put this to split Carroll County that way so that. I met in Washington. Crawford Sebastian and Madison can all stay in the. Can can all stay in the third district. You know without help most most the proposal I don't one proposal that would have. Kept those five plus all of Carroll of. When we went over the one percent requirement and that in and I have a feeling if you could the one million if you include just the western district of Carol or the or the precincts approximating it is this bill does. Then you but that that might that might be workable for the for the people for what the people want up for what I understand the people one up in Northwest Arkansas. And then work around some of them work around some of the other issues with some of the you used adopt that idea and then work around some of the issues other maps otherwise. The. This does it does does even less than you might look like a a non and to me this day. That this that this map makes no sense to me. It's just it just doesn't. Even as the yeah. Actually seems where that came from a Democrat. If any questions for ms brand from committee members. J.. I have a question from a committee member saying none is written thank you for your time being be excused Senator Leding. Thank you recognized close we bill. Thank you Mr chair and just to address a couple of comments there as I noted a number of times during the presentation this map is the work of a high school student who might not even be old enough to to vote and had none of my input so there were no partisan considerations in the drawing of this map and if I thought that this map stood any chance of passing as I noted to my good friend representative Jean I would have reservations about it and likely would not be able to support it but I made a commitment to the students who chose to participate in this process and felt it was important to honor that commitment and again with the I'm not sure my friend senator Alan Clark went the filter was also a good idea to introduce at least a few maps that were drawn by any of us thank you. Thank you senator. Judge Brian the map committee members up on the agenda was the first item on today's agenda the Senate bill seven twenty and I forgot to mention that bill will not be presented senator Johnson is pulled that bill so that's why we moved to seven twenty four now staying in order will here Representative Dotson president house bill one nine six three. Shell bill nineteen sixty three representative Dotson. Representative dot you would just Delphi's self for the committee and also It Senator at the table with usable that we just densify yourself and recognized make a presentation thank you Mr members the committee a state representative jim Dotson district ninety three. State senator rand Davis District sixteen. Member's house bill nineteen sixty three you have an in front of you on the screen Senator Davis and I worked on this components of it separately and then about a week or so ago kind of got together Is hall this discussion was going on to merge what we hope is a bill that takes into consideration a lot of the feedback that we've heard throughout the last. now time we've been meeting here various Masson proposals well in just because it's top left right there we'll start with the third district the third district moves Madison County into the third and out of the fourth. It also makes Newton Boone. Newton County Searcy County hold and move those into the first and then pope also into the second out of the third if you're looking at the current map it also makes Crawford County hole and most of Sebastian County hole the southern tip of Sebastian County would remain in the fourth similar to what it is today but the north part of Sebastian County that's currently split between the third and fourth would be solely in the third that brings the population count down to within twenty four people of that number that we need for the four way split across the state so the the the deviation I think it's on. So on your in your packet here under the third is zero percent so it's it's as tight as it can get moving on to the first also heard a lot of talk about Southeast Arkansas particularly Chico to Shea and Lincoln counties if you look at. The I guess what is the second page of your your presentation here you see the the. Old county or the old precinct outlines or old district outlines and you concede none of those in the south east corner of the state have been changed so between the third and fourth all those counties that border the river there Mississippi River all the way up state in the first and The ones that were in the fourth stay in the fourth Jefferson County. Down there feel note is currently split we didn't touch it it stays exactly the same It also moves the rest of Searcy County into the first Marion Boone county's fully into the first and Newton County which is currently split between the third the fourth would move into the first. And then finally. When I finally against let's jump down. Let's go to the fourth next as you can see it's it's shrunk. Maintaining largely the same outline with the exception that it comes up in two and split selain County and picks up the southern part of selling County there Going into the second district the second district adds pope in Cleburne county's and splits Seling counting so. In all currently we have five county split within the state this would reduce that to three county split within the state it It there compact districts all contiguous. As much as possible tried to preserve the district lines the county lines like I said only three counties were split all precincts were hold that's why they're not exactly spot on to the the per person the deviation on on a. The second I mean the third the fourth is zero percent and on the second and the first districts is point to one percent deviation one. The second is a negative point one the first is a positive point one deviation so the total deviation for the entire state is a point to percent deviation No income is repaired. And I said it tried to maintain the course of the districts as they are today is as large as Lee as possible and on of Senator Davis has anything else to add to that but. We'll take questions. Cochair you're recognized for a question thank you. Thank you sorry I was out when you again this the My question I guess in general use of the wrist three counties around the state three counties Sebastian Salang in Jefferson County and and you may have said it Mrs openings or you Senator Davis presenting on more than one map or just is this is this a map that you're you're proposing together so if you look down on your agenda Senate bill seven twenty five I believe it is it's. We have one between us and and then we'll come back and present B. as in different in this is it going to be different slightly slightly different in that in that alternative version instead of selling Clowney being split plastic county would be split in that one and then I believe it's. one of the precincts in Jefferson County moves out of the first and into the fourth just rap and just record representive dots and I've had no influence on this map whatsoever have a. I don't think we discussed it yeah because it's not it's basically former Senate district eighteen with two more counties I just wanna make sure you know that securely are funded non of so thank you. Senator garner. You're recognized for a question thank you Mr looking back at the maps lane county has been in the second district traditionally since the nineteen seventies it's in the second district now you're splitting that county up into a new district even though they've had that continues representation since the twenties and if you look at the geographical makeup of slain county in relation to second district as a whole it's a lot closer than say Polk County or the other counties be enter into it was the reason for splitting that county specifically to move into a brand new Senate to our congressional district. What we were looking to and adjust for population of course and there are several counties because of that growth of the third congressional district and counties were moving out like that county that have historically always been in the third congressional district so counties like that have to go somewhere and and to us it makes sense that we at move into the second along I. forty where a county does a lot of its business going from Conway Faulkner into plastic County Esselen county we try to split along the interstate line along I. thirty and it's like a little bit above that we try to keep communities together like cities together in Slane county and try to sort of follow that natural boundary and but the truth is you have to adjust for the population growth growth of around ninety thousand people in the third congressional district which puts other counties in different congressional districts and and it makes sense to me hope there and rather than in the fourth congressional district and and try to keep the fourth compact. Senator Ballinger you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I I think my questions are are pretty much answered that's what the my my question was you know essentially why select swing county as the as you know the county that you're going to use to swap out precincts and not something like Pulaski County the the larger more populated county or frankly any other county but the but since you have another map that does that then I think that I think basically my concerns are addressed. Representative Jane you're recognized for a question. Members chairman. Dotson I kind of got it were selling would round interstate look like you did little jag up in Sebastian what'd you taking and part of the city of Fort Smith FOR you have to do something to get eighty thousand people. So me go back to. As far Sebastian County concern it's a very large and populous county so it has I may be off the top of my head but a hundred and twenty three or seven thousand people in it By adding Benton Carroll Washington Madison Crawford together and then all of Sebastian County or about ten thousand people over so it's it's more the rule southern tip of Sebastian County that even though it looks like it's a significant portion of the overall County it's only about ten thousand total people out of a hundred and twenty plus thousand that are in Sebastian County follow up. Recognized but look at the map it kind of theirs this is a little debt that goes up is that going into the city of Fort Smith no now it's it's three precincts that that are currently in the third that would move into the fourth at to make a hole in their south of it comes up to the the southern border of like Greenwood okay thank you. Committee members I remind you that allowing a committee members asked the questions first so if you've been cued up a little bit and I am calling on you that's why Senator Ballinger you're recognized. Thank you Mr I have one question so I've heard from and I visited with well Senator Davis about this to some extent but of our for the folks in Boone County that would prefer to be in the third and and I know those kind of things happen the question is you know you have have we heard from folks in Fort Smith that is saying they also or wanting to be in the in the third because if we were to move that line north a little bit you could pick up Boone and Newton County and keep keep the little little tighter using Sebastian County you know basically a few less seats but I do understand that means we're talking about the first of which means I've got to pick up more County you know population somewhere but have you guys heard from Sebastian County specifically or Fort Smith frankly specifically about them wanting to stand the third if not would be possible to pick up Boone County. I would say that their state senators advocated for Sebastian County to remain whole or to not remain hole that the whole and the population **** the the difference in population between the in county and the rest of Sebastian County to put all of Sebastian into the fourth or put all you know all of smashing into the third it's just too much and so if you try to split it to get the exact population then you're talking about splitting Greenwood and Fort Smith entity instead of keeping Fort Smith all together Greenwood all together in the third congressional district so and it just creates additional issues and when we do that and so that's why we chose to keep that boundary line in the third as close as we could and so adjusted if you precincts and simply for population but otherwise we can't at the same. It just follow appropriate so is currently is green wood in the third or is it in the fourth the third it is in there okay so so you're green what I'm sure would like to stay with Fort Smith in the same gradual district is so that your reasoning with because you could use the same you can pick up Boone and Newton County you'd still end up needing some of Sebastian County budgeted of splitting either part of Portsmouth or you'd split Fort Smith from Greene with or whatever okay thank. Senator Hammer you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr on the splitting of the sling County. What what was the boundary that you used to split sling County. It's slightly above that M. I. thirty we had a taking a few precincts above I thirty and so what I do have is a man of it and I thought might be here in the presentation but and there's a few precincts above I thirty but we tried to call that as close as we could that meet the population standards followed Mr you're recognized thank you. Part of my concern is the city limits of both Shalane and brought I'm of Benton and Bryant go pretty far to the north did you take in all the precincts that went in above the I. thirty liner. Otherwise review split in cities to cities. I am yes so all of Benton. And all of Bryant city limits according to the map that I have are in the fourth M. on this matter. We went far enough north to make sure that all of the entire city populace in one congressional district. Okay about you Mister allow thank you. Thank you. Senator bet you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair we've had this discussion with both of the paid presenters today and Senator Ballinger asked the question does Sebastian County want to be in third I don't think the appropriate question though is what happens to Boone and to Newton but more so Madison in the fourth district being added the third causes you to once again for another ten years divide up our County I've got my county judge in the audience to speak against this I've got mayors coming to speak against this Sebastian County was one of the county's divided in house last time. And it looks does that you've divided us again to pull fourth council district out and put him in the third. And we have proposals or that's about the right population those four counties which has questions Senator Ballinger question do they want to stay in the third absolutely I've got letters from our chamber I got or county judges center a. I don't really understand the the concept of dividing up the counties when that's one of our precedence is to not divide up counties and my alternative to you to what in question is since we've been divided for ten years dealing with partial people partial representation to cities cetera why not take the county that you're adding to the third district and divide them in house let's the bastion B. hole because it's our turn to not be a divided council at and has anybody made a suggestion to that because I think you're going to hear that at least from our county judge a couple mayors and I've got a letter from the chamber to look at that for Sebastian County doesn't need to be divided up for a full twenty years is that's a tough way to govern. No other other than the conversation you and I had I haven't heard that advocated I have heard from Madison County residents they want to be back in the third yeah I've heard that as well and I so if there's a way to do it I'd be are not going to make everyone happy no matter what I mean there's this is not a perfect match I don't think there's one that exists after I've tried to do as many configurations I think that you possibly can to try to get the population together as as close as possible this particular question my answer would be that this is more compact so rather than having the fourth come all the way up in Madison County and closer to Missouri line having the fourth more compact and having the third more compact by taking the south part of Sebastian County which is Been in the fourth for the last decade as you said it there's not as much change this way other than like said Madison County coming in and making those two two congressional districts more compact. Okay and if you don't mind I mean it also creates an other issues like you said there's no perfect maps so when you trade one thing for another it creates additional issues along the way if you put all of Sebastian into the third you don't get to split Carol or split Madison because the population there such a difference there so you're putting counties back into the and either the fourth which brings it you know top to bottom across the state or you put him into the first and then you've got a cut off the first at the bottom of the state and she's going to show a county where you have a roll croppers and so then you're dividing up a farm community and they strongly advocated to stay together and so you trade one thing for several other issues and and that's where we looked and athletes to try to find the map that addresses the most concerns and and like we said there's no perfect map but we try to address as many concerns as possible and we do one thing we trade it for one to three other issues. Thank you do you have a follow up I guess the follow up is the four counties the five counties is a perfect number for that district with their twelve hundred people that are moving in a month up there is that number was what they were January first clearly there over the seven fifty two by now nine months later. Yeah no I really struggle with dividing up my County for another twenty years trying to figure out how you represent those people. Four it just doesn't. We have maps that show that that seven hundred and I thank it's four thousand representing speaks map shows a whole Sebastian County in the third district with Carol and we're still four thousand short and you don't get her map if I recollect and divide a single county and had access for the first district at cetera so we'll we'll see what the will of the body is. That that particular map if I recall correctly and I'm. Sorry I'm trying to find it here real quick that you referenced there is puts The third district six thousand four hundred eighty five people shy of of being on target which is a. A variance of point eight six percent where this current map puts it within twenty four people of being exactly on unfortunately we don't have the luxury of taking into account projections of what potential population growth are we have to take the snapshot in time of the Census for twenty twenty and obviously things are growing and changing and moving in populations are going to adjust but I think as far as trying to get as close as possible as you can to us little deviation as possible is one of the goals of this map. Well senator pleasure vegetable had come back to we've got John people automation's Love circle back to you in this little bit Senator Ballinger recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman at and I was gonna say I want to make sure advocate for my people they they Madison County has been ten years in the in the fourth but that also makes it where Madison counties is in the the extreme and it puts the represent the fourth from the with the online to ten miles from the Missouri line and and you know the the fable finger was unacceptable but essentially what happened is that moved it over to Madison County finger that has that pooled massive gun out of the third which they have been historically so that's when I like I have no I mean I I'm trying to be flexible on this as much as possible but in representing my constituents the best kind of one wants to be back in the third Carroll County once being in the third everything else is flexible and I'm willing to work with as a member state agencies I can't vote for anything that doesn't have Massac county and Carroll County in the third so. Representive Crawford you're recognized for a question. You Mr thank you Mr chair you guys are close to having a good map of Sebastian County. Thank must remain together other than that it looks pretty good what is the population in Newton County do you now seventy two hundred approximately seventy two hundred so we're looking at that lower. Part of Sebastian was sixteen. Thousand right before you changed it where it split that city and it was now what that is now the lower part of Sebastian according to this map we took ten thousand people out of the south part of the Sebastian. Or ten thousand remain in the fourth okay so thank you for all of you have a follow up yes sorry okay you're recognized okay so. If that's the case then it would be okay to put Newton. To pull to pull Sebastian damn. Unfortunately that won't help since on this map Newton's part of the first that's right that is a part of the first okay but I just want to give my two cents in we need to make Sebastian County hole we need to keep Fort Smith and Sebastian County in the third district thank you thank you representing Senator Hammer you're recognized against a. Thank you Mr I might not agree with representative Rick Crawford the that the map is close to being good because it's going to be at the expense of Swain county so my question is this using the philosophy that you did to split swing county along the interstate line if we were to come up to pope in split it along the interstate line how would that affect the numbers if in order to achieve balance we split hope instead of showing County. It would be still considerably off since. Seling county. Been in Bryant and the portion of sling County that is out in the in the fourth according this map is about a hundred and five thousand people. And County total is sixty three a little over sixty three thousand so still far short even if you put all of in. Follow up Mr you're recognized thank you. As identified slain is a growing County nobody's fault it's just it is what it is and if we are going to be considered of what's going to happen over the next year ten years based on the last last ten years why would we go in there and disadvantage so Wayne as opposed to maybe some of the other counties line around your proposed map like going back up to pope. To be honest I'm not really sure how it disadvantages selain or disadvantages any county that split you then have to US Congress people representing a county and so I I serve. In my opinion I think the idea of splitting and is being portrayed in at negative light when we're keeping as cities together. And then to me it looks like they have two voices in Congress and so. We like I said we did as much as we could to keep the lines and is close to possible as they are today keep farming communities together split along natural boundaries and adjust for population and taking all things into consideration feedback that we heard last week from members and feedback that we've heard outside of this and we take all those things into consideration in this map and try to meet all those concerns are thank you Mr. Senator garner you're recognized thank you on that last point were you trying to keep communities together that have been historically in a district when the argument that pope and the other counties have less do the second district in Slane county does which has a metropolis type area in general has been in the second district is geographically closer than what the current map what what your map B. don't your would you agree with me that sling county seems to have more traditional synergy with that kind of environment than the other additional counties and I I don't agree with that I'm from that county and so an. Like I see that pope county sets in the second I can understand the other argument I'm not saying that it's not true obviously easily and Brian and didn't and that as a you know which office outside of little rock but I think Polk County fits just as well into the second national district so I don't I don't agree with that and I would also say the bottom half of Salim fits and. Matches well and that some of the other counties that are and neighboring in the fourth district so the truth is we have to address for population ninety thousand people out of the third and those counties that are getting booted out of the third have to go somewhere and in my opinion it's important to make sure that when we move counties from the third into a different aggression all district that they match the congressional district they're being moved into and I'm of the opinion that county fits very well into the second congressional district as I stated we do a lot of business along I. forty in Polk County and in Conway County and Faulkner County and into Pulaski County that's where a lot of people from help do their business and live life so we fit very well in the second I understand you're and arguments certainly about selling and but I don't think that it makes it not true for that fits in the second I think it's absolutely true that but thats wealth and second as well. The object. Thank you have a follow up yes Sir you're recognized just for the record I never said that Polk County didn't fit or the other counties didn't I was asking if you felt like so Salim county was more of that natural synergy between those Secondus for the others I can understand your viewpoint but it seems like if you're going to make those cuts the need to be more of a natural place separate or more for a growing population center then swing County thank you. Representative but you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr Inslee counting the part that you have cut out is is is a like a bedroom community is not a farming area about over sixty percent of the people go back into plastic County to work everyday we're in the metropolitan planning area which would receive federal dollars of from the government also that we work together with central Arkansas here so it makes no sense at all to cut out this section of our county and and places into the fourth which we have nothing in that area has nothing in common with them. Just a statement thank you. Representative allow you have a question okay. Page coming back to you request of basically the question is who gets represented best and to your point having to congressman. Unless you spent ten years being divided you don't understand that after County gets low representation much like Senator Ballinger is referencing that he is folks in Madison feel like there's limited representation but the problem with that is when you come together you took a county two of the largest selain Sebastian County. And by cutting them into a fraction their power to influence their population base has been diminished because that's what ends up happening as someone who's lived ten years talking to mayors and county judges and that's the problem with dividing up counties if it has to be done it has to be done but I don't think it has to be done in perpetuity to a county because what ends up happening is it's very tough to get representation if you're on the fringe of a district and your divided in a county and I think I guess I should make that into question don't you agree because I'm gonna and operating a letter from our chamber here shortly and they'll reference that to well I I mean I think congressman Womack has done a great job representing all corners of the third district I mean hope counties on the fringe of the third district and he spends a lot of time in that county and it's my understanding and Justin speaking with him over the years that he spends a lot of time in Fort Smith and Greenwood so I would say that he's done a really good job I can't speak to that congressman Westerman I don't know about that but I think we have and some congressmen that are in touch with the corners of their district and and I would strongly argue I know congressman Womack is. Thanks follow other question just to follow up for all right you're recognized the reality of it is green wood and so Fort Smith feel very honored to be supported by by congressman Womack it's Mansfield it's the counties in our south part of the county can't get anybody to talk to all that's the problem when you have a congressman that has the majority of a county they deal with the cities and that are in their district not the others and that's the problem with being divided so I agree but unless you've lived through a county being divided up it's is really rough for some of your county. The cities that are in that third district don't feel represented. Senator Clark you're recognized for a question thank you. In a sling county has of natural marriage to the second district with the Benton brought metropolis the Easton bedroom community to Pulaski County but if in the fourth district of would be very important area of the four district couldn't be overlooked of. But the split is hard to I don't see how you justified I'm a bit and Bryant fit in the second district the north part of sterling county. I don't see how this how you. Messi put but brown in the second district in the north part of sling county out but I don't see what you take Benton Bryant into. These poor district. What justification there is other than just numbers for leaving the north part of sling counting in the second district I don't see how they fit at all. And the question is how do they fit. Well I mean I think I think they said and just like we kind of spoke about with at your map that has all of Salina in the fourth and I think there are natural and community relationships with neighboring and counties and so I think I think it does make sense and it does that. The the center. Yes what is what in those communities I mean I I I I mean it's easy to see habit and run. But the relationship with Pulaski County in and Conway except for an and held that the symbol. symbiotic relationship in Easton don't those committees of parent except for the north Korean K. a north Linn county. What are their symbiotic relationships with the second district. At I'm sorry we ask the last part of that again what those role areas of north Richland County water their symbiotic relations once you split them order their symbiotic relation ships with the second district well I I mean I think there's plenty you look at Perry counties in the second and White County Cleburne County the endearing County and I think I think that makes sense there's role parts and Polk County so I I think there's plenty to say that they fit in the second congressional just district and. The northern part of selling County I mean I think it makes sense there's other parts in the second district that are similar to the northern part of selling County thank you thank you represent your Richmond recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair Senator Davis. I'm over here thank you Sir I'm behind this chair hiding. Thank you have a map that doesn't split up selling County that you're going to present later. Yes representative Richmond we do and we have a map and representative Dotson myself that makes the lean County whole and splits Pulaski County and and that's another way to go about this to me population criteria and and keeping cities together so yes we do have that on the agenda today okay thank you I look forward to arguing over that one have a good day. Say no further questions from committee members. I have two people signed up to speak against the bill. Representative of of correction center pet you're signed up to speak against the bill I thought you already have but. You go the table if you'd like to speak against it. VOL two entities are County judges here and I think it would be more appropriate to have him go to a table and then I have a letter from the chamber of commerce you want read that letter not this time let's let the yeah I think the county judge you go I have three and I have a signed up for against the bill judge David Hudson is that correct judge if you would just come up and have a seat at the table. The center is another county judge is that correct I have two mayors that are stuck on the on the I. forty that was referenced okay that all right so I understand well let's let the judge mentioned you would charges densify yourself for the record and you're recognized to speak on this bill. Is that I'm David Hudson Sebastian County judge. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today have enjoyed listening to your discussion and. Your dog you're all doing a good job representing your best interests and and I appreciate the dilemma that your end I'm I'm merely here today to speak for Sebastian County residents and clarity in representation. you know that we had a split county for ten years and I understand that it's difficult to make decisions about what to do with this matter but advocate that you keep the county total in the third district I think that it's we've we've been successful with our lobby effort in the representation present representation that we had it does complicate things you I've heard the debate about having to representatives and more voices for clarity purposes there's a there's another perspective on that and so that that's why I'm here made made the trip today. Senator Pitsch is request enjoyed your discussion and I appreciate your time listening to my requested you keep special council hold thank you judge let me see if any questions from committee members. Senator Ballinger you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr at you know I definitely appreciate the situation and right right now basically Fort Smith is in the third and you know the area south of Fort Smith is in the fourth is it. But I can understand I guess what you're wanting to do with remaining in the third is to stay with the rest of Northwest Arkansas rather than if you went in the fourth if we can make Sebastian County whole by putting you in the fourth but you guys just do not want to be separated from that care of by Washington and Benton County basically is that correct we're what is a what would be your concern with going into the fourth I thank that the we would all agree both the residents in northwest Arkansas and Sebastian County that. By collaborating together we had a more effective voice in lobbying in DC in the representation of the whole areas interest in a lot of commonality that we have now that will continue to have and I'm thinking that that that should be a predominant manner as you consider keeping us together. Sir it is but what you're saying then is B. and separated into different congressional districts would limit your ability to collaborate with with been washing down the road to northwest Arkansas I thank by keeping the population it is I haven't studied these maps understands you get Fort Smith and perhaps Greenwood in total in the third district now so certainly that's better than not having those larger cities in that district it is just a matter of clarity on the ballot it's it's a matter of clarity in representation for whatever those matters are either of common interest in Sebastian county has a lot of common interest with northwest Arkansas we also have a lot of common interest with the whole state of Arkansas or cans is what we we want what's best for our state both in Congress and in in the United States Senate so I'm to speaking coming from that background that we're we're brothers and sisters I thank the third congressional district has been served well by the representation we add and I hope that we can continue to do that is a total County in that area and I and I leave the the debate to this body I appreciate that and the dialogue in the stability that you've all demonstrated and I you're discussing this matter thank you judge. Representative thank you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I just wanna make sure I understood you correctly there moment go. when you're answering the question. You made it sound like the. You're pretty satisfied with the success you've had. In. Lobby in an collaborative with the northwest. Area. In the third district. And for some reason I had previously been under the impression that you are not satisfied with being a split County so can you reconcile that. Sure the the ability to lobby. As we have in the third congressional district is a matter of record. We're split County. So the matter now is whether or not we're going to continue to be a split County. So there's two separate matters there and you can interpret that have you Wester but I'm I'm not I'm not saying that were unhappy the with the success that is existed. In the past with our lobby effort with Northwest Arkansas counties that's of record and and I think we can all take satisfaction on that that area the state has assisted the whole state of Arkansas the queen takes satisfaction on that is merely a matter of representation and clarity on how you cut a county up and that's back in and in the this body is deliberations and I respect that. That's what I've said. Otherwise Sir no I I mean I'm just honestly trying to make sure I didn't miss understand you because now Sir I don't think you misunderstood me okay thank you thank you Mr. Senator garner you're recognized for a question. Thank you so it seems like your main consideration is keeping the county whole but if you prefer to be in the third district but if you're placing the fourth district with that be of major concern to you. Yes I don't think that anybody in Sebastian County on in this city Fort Smith particularly seeing rain with the way that we stand right now that that would not make anybody very happy we've we feel like we would have a total shift in how we would pursue things in the partnerships and so on so that I would be not be a direction I think folks and Sebastian County would feel like as an appropriate course of action so you think it's more appropriate that we leave counties under further north than you in the fourth district within put you in the fourth discuss the whole argument further north of you. Leave them in the fourth district but leave you further south in the third district as a whole Sir Clark my role here today is to speak for Sebastian County and how you choose to split this up is is not my responsibility I'm not going to get into that I'm here to speak for keeping Sebastian County the third congressional district and request your consideration to keep this whole. Thank you thank you gonna follow up. Okay. I've got two senators that have letters from county judges I've got Senator Hammer that has one he's having copies made. Got a judge I'm sorry you can be excused thank thank you very much thank you for your time to apologize this look at all of you. Thank you judge that. We got letters from that Senator Hammer is brought from a county judge that staff is making a copy of it this time so as you know we can't read the letters here since the altar of the letters not here to answer questions Senator pants also has a letter that I guess you'll distribute to staff and have them to make copies and get out to the members is that paired up. You have anything you want to add well only that I misspoke incentives from the local chamber it's from and I've had about fifteen emails it's from the Fort Smith regional council and it's a representation of twenties plus CEOs and their desire to stay in the third district it's not from the chambers from the Fort Smith regional council so whatever the chair's preference is they've asked me to read it but we can if you choose to hand everybody that's on how late is the letter it's too small paragraphs it's on my phone half a page on the okay I'm going allowed just ten okay I could even abbreviated C. like you go right ahead of dear state agencies to Fort Smith regional council a group of various CEOs and business leaders has voted informally endorsed having Fort Smith in the surrounding area remain within the third congressional district as your review and debate the current redistricting proposals we wish to relay that any scenario that results in Fort Smith and Sebastian County being divided and or move to the fourth congressional district is not our desired outcome The Fort Smith region is made too much progress there are too many examples to list the ways are engaged couple correctional delegation has assisted our efforts not the least of which is the foreign military sales mission the statewide focal point for workforce training in the peak innovation center to name a few from our perspective the evidence is overwhelmingly simple our resources geographic location talented workforce infrastructure and quality of place are exactly what companies and families are looking for and our position in the third congressional district is the foundation for that success Clark Michael bar chairperson Fort Smith regional council okay thank you senator penny copies use it did you also have a copy of the letter from county judge you'll get staff to distribute that to the members members those letters me coming from to county judges from Senator Hammer is. Senator Bentsen other net no further questions from committee members no one else is signed up to speak. Hold on a minute. Hold on. One more person signed up to speak against the bill. You would just have stated table. The device up to the committee you're recognized. Speak it's bill thank you. my name's Ken Yang I'm a born and raised in been Arkansas Mrs still resident of selling County also the sling County Republican chairman and a board member of the downtown been downtown arts and beautification a committee with the work that we do there Just to echo what the previous the. A county judge had mentioned I did of Ford most of you all of not all of the all the letter from the county to our county judge Lee County judge notion to receive the letter to for multiple city councilman and and Benton and Bryant and I'm actually just was texting the mayor of Benton who is for keeping selling County AS one county and prefer Billy in the second congressional district there's been a lot of talk about like communities and keeping similar communities together and by splitting selling County in any shape form or fashion or removing selling council from congressional district to fails to achieve that goal of redistricting when it comes to keeping similar communities together as previously mentioned a committee of the goals and criteria that you see used to draw lines and the most common of them are compactness preservation of counties other political subdivisions preservation of communities interest in preservation of core and prior districts are some of the guidelines that they all used to write the date of draw the districts even with the board of apportionment on number seven if you see on the website it talks about keeping communities of interest together those commonalities of economical social political cultural ethnic or religious the interests to the question I believe Senator Tucker asked last week and that have been alluded to today about deviations and. court rulings in regards to that if you just look at ten at the Jefferson County commission in West Virginia in twenty twelve the US Supreme Court approved a congressional plan in West Virginia with a point seven nine percent population variation based on keeping county lines intact I think that's very important on the one that has not been brought up but the Supreme Court said it was not essential that a state draw districts the precise mathematical equality so long as small variation serve legitimate objectives such as keeping counties intact which this map does not. In regards to up selling county and I think Polk County was brought up we talk about natural boundaries and and I think facts are important you know thinking thinking something is a similar is different than the facts showing that something is is similar and so when you look at households of sterling county as forty four thousand households and seventy five and the forty four thousand five seventy five and Faulkner but twenty two five seventy nine in pope the average commute time from Celine county to places of work is nineteen is a twenty five minutes the average in pope is nineteen minutes that's to make a point that is twenty five miles from been to Little Rock seventy seven miles from Russellville two Little Rock. I think you are dealing with order number so bear with me a lot on this last point numbers matter when you were talking about similarities and I hope you all hear this and I hope. You understand so. Commuter flow employment flow is in a four county Little Rock region that Faulkner Lonoke Pulaski and so only you may as as you know I did not mention pope in those four counties of most people that go to work in Pulaski County or Little Rock in selling County alone twenty eight thousand seven hundred and sixty five people commute to Pulaski County or little rock to go to work that's sixteen thousand eight ninety and loan up to Pulaski thirteen thousand three fifty Faulkner to the Lasky and no other county comes close outside of that four county region collectively. That's seventy one other counties the commute to Pulaski county or city a little rock that's twenty one thousand eight hundred and twenty five lower significantly lower than just selling county to Pulaski County. All right was this I mentioned to you that you know I'm here representing the people of selling county that have reached out to me this the this Lee County judge you cannot be here today who submitted a letter the city council and the women that have all reached out to me at me the mayor of the city of Benton who has also reached out to me and they all wanted to be here but they they are clear and that as a mind that selling county needs to be one whole county and preferably stay in the second congressional district. Thank you. That testimony any questions from committee members. Sam Nunn D. Meeks case thank you very thank you. One is signed up to speak for against the bill sponsor the bill you're recognized go table clothes for you but we with the bill. Thank you Mr members the committee I appreciate you taking consideration of this as we've heard really it when we're looking at the various numbers looking various configurations of these congressional districts One of the questions you have to answer is do you want to split counties or not split counties whole counties are going to have a much larger deviation is not going to be as close in population and if the question becomes splitting counties and if the answer that is that you're okay with splitting counties which after drawing as many configurations as I possibly could think of I mean I even had one configuration that that put Fort Smith and Pulaski County together I mean Sebastian's Klasky it's possible to do I know how will that go over but it is possible to do I'm not advocating for that by the way I just it so. The answer that I came to and the reason that I think this map is is a strong one for consideration is that I think it is okay to split counties. Try to do it as few as possible and as as closely as you can to the population numbers to only do it enough to get the population numbers right so that's that's what this map is a temp to do same thing with the next one that will be presenting after a representative ray comes up and so since they answer that question is yes we can. In my mind I think this one deserves your consideration just to speak to the point I believe the the county judge Did one the the county put together but wanted to stay in the third as well so in order to be able to do that I mean it just population wise it makes more sense to move Sebastian County to the fourth and keep the district Titan continuous in the northwest corner of the state north of the river population wise we have heard the concerns of folks particularly from the Fort Smith area that want to stay in the third and that is what this map addresses Madison County Carroll County staying in the third been watchin obviously Crawford being whole and Sebastian including the Fort Smith graters Portsmouth area all in the third and I think this map addresses those concerns eight even if you heard from the those speaking against the primary concern is keeping Fort Smith in the Sebastian County area the question is do you like this map or do you like the one will be presenting shortly better the difference between them being a swap out between sling county in plastic county which will be more happy to answer in present when we get to that thank you Mr. Thank you posay back there just a little bit. Next item on today's agenda is house bill nineteen sixty four representative right you're recognized. Represent the registered data by yourself and you're recognized president house bill nineteen sixty four. Thank you Mr chairman and members of the committee colleagues for the opportunity present House Bill nineteen sixty four. I'll try to move quickly through this the details the map I've got a hard break I'm gonna leave it to forty five This map adopt I'll just give you some of the highlights First this map maintains a lot of continuity I know some of the maps that are being considered sort of start over from a blank sheet of paper my map doesn't do that I tried to take the congressional districts as they exist today then adjust for a pop population growth and population decline I think that's at least somewhat important consideration because you know the current congressmen have district offices they have community engagement constituent affairs operations things that are already in place so moving things really far out of where they currently exist would be somewhat disruptive secondly I'll point out this map reduces the number of counties that are split in the congressional maps it reduces that number from five down to three and other three counties that are split two of those are our counties are already currently split at but I do think it's important to note that in both of those counties this map reduces the size of that split. So it makes it a little bit neater in terms of variance this map keeps all four of the congressional districts well under one percent population variance I believe that their districts within three one hundredths of a percent so so very very close. there you can see the overlay of the all of the current lines with what I've proposed I'll start with the first district I started by drawing the first district which needed to gain some population I did not remove any of the voters that are currently in the first district all I did was add to that I know there's been some discussion about where she go in DJ counties belong based on the feedback that I received from folks in those areas I left those counties in the first district. I heard from several people who live throughout the first district the that sort of lament the the size of the the geographic size of the district and so I wanted to add population in a way that didn't significantly grow the geographic footprint of the first you can see there's the the eastern most portion of Pulaski County there I added into the first district and that is done along the boundaries of the Arkansas River where it runs north and south there and then highway sixty seven going north. in the second district you can see you can see that it's largely the same with just two exceptions one being the easternmost portion of Pulaski County that I just described. And then to being the addition of yell county after I use those two boundaries to make the first district correct in terms of population I need to add in a little bit more population so yell county made sense to me since it It previously been in the second district. up until the last round of redistricting. In the third congressional district obviously had to shed the most amount of population so I try to make it as compact as possible basically made it that I and I forty nine corridor District a couple of other notes about the third I made Sebastian County hole so Senator pension representative Crawford hope that's to your liking in Crawford County which is already split under our current maps I shrank the size of the split. and sort of reunited if you will the city of alma which had been split between the third and the fourth districts and I put the city of alma into the third district and then I I did move Madison County out of the fourth back into the third that was based on feedback I receive from people in that area who identify more with Northwest Arkansas than than with the fourth district. And then the fourth district certainly had to grow the most in terms of the four congressional districts so I added in Polk County as much of the some of the other river valley counties Johnson and Franklin are already in in the fourth district and as we just discussed on the last proposal I think there's a lot of folks agree but County fits in with the with the river valley there. also that you know the fourth gets cleaned up a little bit because Sebastian County is no longer split and then obviously has to it has to grow in terms of population so there's there's some new counties and their at Newton Boone and Marion so that's a that's the basic run down of it and I'm happy to take a few questions Senator Ballinger you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr what do you Hey congressman Westerman so much. I don't I love congressman Westerman I think he's doing a great job you know unfortunately the I. at we have no control over the way the population cell sorts you know we don't get we don't tell people where they have to live or where they decide to move the population in our state over the last ten years is sorted in a manner that it's that it's chosen this to sort and you know the the fourth district had to gain the most the third district had to lose the most the fourth and the third border each other so I thought it was most natural for a lot of that population to go in from the third into the fourth I understand that there's other people to see it differently and I'm certainly open to suggestions but At I appreciate your the sentiment there. Representative I did leave Madison cap of Madison County in the fourth those representative Charlene that you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman I think there is much to be admired in your map but against letting Crawford County we went through that for the last ten years being split even the indignity of having the city of alma split into and to split property County again we're a small county with a small population WYSP let us. Well I the reason that my map maintains the the splitting Crawford County is you know the feedback that I heard on on most of the other surrounding counties as there is a strong sense that the Sebastian wanted to remain whole I didn't really hear from a lot of folks in Crawford County but I thought it made sense to try and reduce that split so I moved alma into into the third there I'm if there's if there's if you think there's a way to do it that makes more sense than how it's how it's drawn on here I would certainly welcome your input and the the knowledge you have from from you know living in that region thank you I don't speak for everyone in Crawford County but everyone has talked to me is tired of being picked on being split. Thank you for that. Clark you're recognized for a question. Thank you represent rate there's much to be said for map of the if you're anywhere but for district of the as representative Vaught said the this up to try to get Carroll County into the third district the problem would be having to split something you chose to split Crawford or leave it split. Of. The fourth not only goes from Louisiana to Missouri. You've got your cast sticking out there in the middle of to go around. Of. It. Is it really going to be possible to represent that area well. Well I think yeah yes certainly yell county was represented by the second district prior to this latest round of redistricting I'm sorry I missed community communicated I mentally ill coming up about the fourth district from the Boone and Marion down to Ashley and. Miller. Sure I I I understand the there's some reservation about that District being geographically that large you know it's about the same size as the first district and and those communities at the edges of the first you know I've talked to folks at the edges of the first and they they like being in the first aid they don't want to change I've talked to I've talked to people in both Mountain Home and Lake Village and they all feel well represented I know that's a vast geographic difference but it's certainly possible you know there's if you look at other states like Kansas there are dire and even even states that have an at large congressman like Montana there are areas that are far more vast geographically than what I proposed here in the fourth that they do feel represented again it's not ideal Sir Clark I agree with that but unfortunately the you know or fortunately unfortunately it just depends on your vantage point I think the population in our state has sorted itself in a way by moving relocating so on and so forth in a way that you know that that district has to gain a lot of voters and. You know the the result of that is probably. The the geographic footpath footprint growing thank you senator recognized. Thank you I think you've done some good things but I think there's some better ways to handle for thank you thank you appreciate that feedback so low further questions from. Committee members. A representative right would have one person signed up to speak against the bill this Britain. Do you have additional comments other than what you might earlier in regards to the other bills as is is different than those. Well this one not only just split the Pulaski County it's with the city of Jacksonville right what is it about if you're going to Richelle written it okay you're recognized. I did this one not only splits. No asking County it splits the city of Jacksonville. City of Jacksonville lies on both sides of sixty seven. With the. Yeah though probably the majority of the population. Looks like the majority of population within the party was sent to the first district of there are significant parts of Jacksonville including where I live and the air base that would be in the second district. I mean you're you're splitting S. you're splitting up sizeable city with this. And. I mean that and. Used image it uses just putting a little less of Jefferson not but you still splitting it. And if we are her all the complaints from Madison County about the fourth district extending within ten miles of Missouri. Well you put it if the medicine back in the third which I think is a good idea but but now but now but your the trade off. Is to find a couple of other county six it's then the fourth all the way to Missouri. That's just. Indefensible to me. You know this bill. If you're if you're if you're if you're trying to have something that looks like the current district map. It's a simple there's a simple way to fix the second district split district I think it was in the very first proposal. By Republicans believe it or not. And that and that was just and that was just not been bearing County that puts it within point OO nine percent but second district within point OO nine percent of ideal. You know. I think it would be more defense will drop and we are in county then thank you then keep trying to split Pulaski not just not just Pulaski but Jacksonville. That's all I have to say hello members read have questions from Senator Clark yes of listened to your testimony of on all the maps that split Pulaski County and and this is the first actual of thing I've heard where you talked about something specific like Jacksonville and I can understand that of the rest of this map it looks like it's coming down the river of in the rule forming country down there of we're. Most of my folks are from hello the taking out the Jacksonville area which I understand how is the rest of that rule area down there being split from Pulaski County house at hurting anything well. In it's hard to say how the split but I mean how is. Yeah. The law itself I've L. way I kind of feel like you know you heard from county judge Hudson how about Sebastian County. Having him not wanting it split. Of. And being the yes yes that's a small rule part of Pulaski County that. As I still feel like it's a it's an intentional handle Pulaski County. No if I may Mister chair you're recognized of. I have as I talk about my account the counties of talk about common interest and then these folks down the river have a very much common interests with the folks and in district one and loan accounting much more so than they have with Maumelle for for instance of why would it not make sense for them to be in district one. Lil. I. That they may have some common interest with England for example but I don't that but you know they're they're still they're still in Pulaski County but that's just the that's just a political one thank you Mr well thank you there no public rights ofway thank you for your testimony may excuse representative right you're recognized close we will. All right I just like to say aye thank you to the chairman and members to committee for giving me out the opportunity to present another option for consideration if you will take a look at these maps and this bill and you think that there's some merit to this idea if you think it's close and maybe we can improve it in some way I would encourage each of you to let me know call me text me email me and I'm happy to work with anybody on this thank you. Thank you representative to committee the next item on today's agenda the Senate bill seven twenty five Senator Davis. Representative Dotson. Recognized to present Senate bill seven two five. And state senator Breanne Davis District sixteen. State representative jim Dotson district ninety three. And in an effort to save time this is essentially the same map we just presented and the only difference is that it makes the lean County hole it's what's Pulaski County and we use the river And sixty seven I. sixty seven one sixty seven excuse me and as natural barriers so we kept all of okay we kept all of and Little Rock together which is where you sort of see that clout we have all the City of Little Rock together and we have all of North Little Rock together and use the natural boundaries to do so there's one other change and there's at that's the precinct in Jefferson County that we took from the first and moved into the fourth. With that we're happy to take any questions. For any questions from committee members. Sam Nunn. Just a minute. Senator just popped up on screen of recognize you for questions I'm sorry. Senate. I think I'm on here senator okay it's on now it's on both of us on thank you all for. I'm gonna try my best to work this into a question because is more common I'd met Mister chair but I just want to because I would be on this Mike every time I think if I almost every map it seems if I commented about what happened with the appeal asking County so on this one I I have to speak up on behalf of people I hear from I'm very concerned about this so I guess my question to you is because I'm looking at this map and how weird it looks. Is there or not there is a way for you to get what you are achieving and Not split the Lasky County so what is the thing you are achieving that so important that you have to split Pulaski County when there are bills and there are others that don't of split Pulaski County what's help me understand here while that's necessary yes Senator Elliot that purpose and this was and to make selling County hall said the first map that we filed with splitting selain and and we heard back from a couple of members and so we just created an alternative that and adjusted for population and followed natural boundaries and we just essentially switched out to show a different example of the map we're we split selling. Follow follow you're recognized I'm sure I interpret from this that your preference would be your first map not dismiss up a does it matter to you. And I get yeah I can to me it doesn't matter I mean I'd like R. Cyllene county map personally and I think this map while I understand you're saying that it looks weird but when you zoom in it makes perfect sense and we're we followed all the wards in the city of little rock follow the river And Volage sixty seven one sixty seven so it makes sense when you zoom into it and so honestly and. Either one is fine with me all right thanks thanks Mr thank you. Representative Lowery you're recognized for a question thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator Davis over here I intended to ask this question your first map but decide not to and then when a representative David Ray talked about Polk County for instance and I just really want to get your feedback on that being that you represent that area there there has been for my understanding a long time desire for Polk County to be in the fourth district and is representive ray already mentioned that there are some of the river valley counties that are in the first the fourth district and have a lot of similarities to Polk County I know if you make any shift like that it creates a domino effect were you have to find it's a numbers game but could you speak to that issue of the desire of Polk County residents or leadership as to which congressional district they feel like they would be better represented in yep and we have been at decades long proud members of the third congressional district and I've never heard of such a desire to be in the fourth congressional district and one of the reasons I think state agencies is because I knew pope county was going to be a county in the mix simply because of the population growth the third and so as I have visited with community leaders and they understand and how we fit well in the second congressional district and would like to see us move in that direction so I've not heard any desire to move to the fourth congressional district okay so you follows yes thank you recognized so the feedback that you you're saying that you've heard is that they. The county leaders city littered leaders there feels like they have more in common with set the second district then they do the fourth district is that correct yes representative Larry that's correct okay thank you thank you Mr thank you saying no further questions from committee members. We have one person signed up to speak against bill miss Britain you have additional testimony. Is pregnant we would identify yourself again to the committee and any additional testimony you're recognized Senate rates my name is Richelle Britain and I'm glad to hear Senator English of chime in on the. On this because it's but because it splits like I said said the previous one this is a project about the in a bank keeps remembering the fact the fate Bilfinger proposal from ten years ago well this one seems to put about three fingers and the peel asking County. And just and a claim they get the City of Little Rock hole but I know that. One of the one of the bill one of the little fingers looks like its it looks like it might grab some part of Little Rock as I as I see and I have I have to look at a more detailed map but. Of. And then then. You have the and it and also because of how it brings in north not just North Little Rock but can't but the rest of camp Robinson you actually have to. This contiguous. Sections a bill asking County in the for in the second district. And also to address what to. So that. Okay member's name is not here the one the one the one who questioned me about the about rule southeast Pulaski County. Last time. You know question questioning whether maybe that part of the county had more in common with Lonoke County. Well this one would but southeast bill would but the rule southeast Alaska county and another in a whole nother District from Lawrence County. That's it you know if you think that they'll if you think that there's a potential community of interest between that part Pulaski County in Lonoke County well this one blow this one blows it right by two. I think that's a question for you of this but we have a question for you from committee member. Represented by eighty. You're recognized for a question Madam I've I've I've I've listened to your remarks and comments on the maps found a somewhat difficult to follow your train of thought I was wondering if you had your comments on each of these maps in prepared remarks and if you're operating from notes that you've taken only to these maps that you can share with committee so I could better follow what you're saying. A I do not have any notes Sir hi the the the the main issue I have with these maps displaying Pulaski County. That is the. That that that is the underlying thread on all of them all the comments I've made so far. There was one other that I was going to oppose for another reason but it but it got pulled down so far all the ones I've come I've commented against involved would have split Pulaski County. You need to follow up representative up follow up that's that's the only point that I've heard you status the issue is cleanup Pulaski County and I guess I would I would take that the rest of these maps anyone that split Pulaski County you're going to speak to that point as well. I've. Yeah that that's a game plan to speak on that area the I think a more friendly member. Has proposed that was still split Pulaski County I think there are better ways to do what she's trying to do then that that one but. Okay thank you right on that one yes ma'am thank you we appreciate your testimony saying no further questions of. Senator Davis represented dot you're recognized close we bill. I am enclosing members of the committee and I just wanna make one additional point and representative dots not of our two maps and have the tightest deviation of any of the maps that are currently out there this one at that point one seven percent and our other one point two percent so we worked very hard to get population as close as we could to keep cities together and to keep the lines where they currently are in only adjust for population and includes in previous counties and congressional districts they had been removed out of and thank you for your consideration we appreciate your time. The representative Dodge Senator Davis. Next item on today's agenda is house bill nineteen sixty five representative flowers. For are two blouses recognized who set up of the committee and you're recognized to present house bill one nine six five thank you very much I will take a whole lot of time and certainly welcome any questions my purpose here today is to. Is that you all with a bill that you would consider that addresses all of the federal guidelines. Being equal population contiguous. Political subdivisions. And minority populations the flowers would you pull the might just a little closer to yes Is that letter sounds a lot better than a get it and minority populations or more minority representation rather. And so I'll just start with the equal population and we when you look at this map you'll see that of the deviation. is within the acceptable standard of less than one percent for all four districts. this proposal reflects of contiguous. A district that of where there are only two counties that are split. And I'll talk about that you've you've got political subdivisions so there to counties that are split with this map. But that's outweighed by the goal of preserving communities of interest all of the counties and the parts of the two that are split are similarly situated as it relates to race economic demographics and marginalized areas. And of the other point that I would add to that is it it was very difficult to to meet that threshold as it relates to the the deviation without splitting Pulaski County verses several other smaller counties but what we were able to do is not split any precincts. As far as minority population. I would ask you know what is the likelihood that a minority voters can elect someone of his or her choice. Most of the proposals we have seen have been looted the minority population in Arkansas across all of the districts this map creates a contiguous district with communities that have similar interests and creates a district in which the minority population is fifty one percent. Of the total population in the district in total even with the Division of two counties this map complies with the federal guidelines and the voting rights act so I think that anyone who is. Even marginally concerned about meeting all four guidelines or the implications of not addressing minority representation of my hope is that you will consider this map and consider that issue that really where there hasn't been a whole lot of conversation. The opportunity to give those who are often overlooked in the delta and Southwest Arkansas have an opportunity to share congressional district with little rock and that would be in a way that would be mutually beneficial. Each of these four districts include a thriving. A city or do you have geographic areas so when the first district you have Jonesborough and the second issue have Little Rock metro area the third district you have of fate bill in the Bentonville quarter into the fourth district you have Conway hot springs in Texarkana further by placing each of these areas in their own congressional districts that's giving them a unique Congress person will be advantageous for these communities as well and with that I'd be happy to take any questions. All right members thank you representative flowers senator garner you're recognized. Thank you Mr everyone the. Most part issues when it comes to the court's judgment to redistricting by the states when it comes to civil rights or minority populations Roughly Arkansas percentage more known population for African Americans and fifteen percent per year you openly admit that you would like to trade a district with a fifty one percent racial make up of African Americans will go and did you not say the men were finalized I said minority representation and so that's not necessarily specific to African Americans so it's not about necessarily creating a district it's about. Meeting before guidelines in a way that doesn't ignore minority representation so. You're drawing a district specifically for the reason the create a minority majority district how would I not violate multiple civil rights issues whenever you're distinctly picking a district based on a racial determinations against senator I'm I've I would reiterate that. The map doesn't. I. Matt was not drawn per se to do that I think I outlined the for guidelines one which includes minority representation so I think what we're doing here is not ignoring the minority representation factor and I think that if we look across the country and recognize that Arkansas is the only southern state to have never sent a of minority person to Congress. While other states have I think that that kind of reflects an omission rather than an effort. Thank you for a brief follow up that we could agree on you're recognized thank you we agree on certain aspects of that but lately drawing a district for racial reasons I think it's a spoken constitutionally issues at the federal government and is a bad way to look at drawing maps appreciate multiple members not bringing that up to the debates for. Can I respond. I have a question you respond yes it I just would like to close that exchange by reiterating that no one heard me say my presentation that this district was drawn to create a minority minority district and I will also reiterate that there are four guidelines which includes minority representation so to not speak to that to not recognize that and did not recognize the omission of Arkansas as it relates to all of the other southern states in the country I think does the exact opposite I think that opens us up to litigation. Representative thank you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr so. I guess I understand what you're saying about representation but if you draw the lines in a way to amplify of minority communities influence in one district you're actually the lieutenant and the other two or three districts so being from Cleburne County it would appear to me that the minority community that lives in our area would be disenfranchised and they would lose their their influence would be diluted so I'm I understand that. Those would be fortunate of us to live in the district court's amplified might benefit how do you see that affecting the minorities that live in the other districts where it's being diluted. Thank you for your question resent Payton I would say that right now as it stands with our current. Districts as well as several of the proposals we've seen there that representation is already diluted and you know I think that if I had come before you with a map that specifically and solely focused on minority representation I think that you that question and even senator garner is point would be perfectly in line with you know posing a concern but you know I don't. I don't hear anyone's concerns about the dilution of minority representation as it exists now or you know addressing minority representation as we draw these boundaries. Gonzales Jr that's all. Okay no further questions from committee members represented flowers will one person signed up to speak. Against the bill miss Britain okay. Read if you have additional testimony you against this bill that you didn't have with others at this time you can present that testimony of. Yes I'm ratio Britain. And I'm and I'm not gonna speak much more because because now I've already talked at length about Pulaski County and at the at eleven Senator flowers I think you're purposes more laudable than most of the others there been trying to split Pulaski County up for what for one it doesn't this just like the map it doesn't split Jacksonville it does keep it does keep a. Southeast Alaska you can be with long don't County. But I think there thank the next two minutes we show which you'll be you all should be thankful I'm I am not playing this be against those. Will. Art art are trying to do the same thing you're trying to do without splitting Pulaski. That's all I have to say J. no questions from just met a misprint. Senator Clark you have a question from the spread and yes what is represented flowers trying to do. The thank you thank you I think she sent her testimony he's trying to create a she's she's just trying to improve minority representation minority not racial minority representation in the. It in an hour a congressional delegation and while you're still not for splitting Pulaski County thing that if we work split Pulaski County that be a good reason. Well I think I think would be a better reason than gerrymandering aisles put it that way thank you. Say no further questions miss Britain you can be skewed representative flowers you're recognized because we bill. Thank you very much Mr. I'll just close by. Clarifying. That. Minority representation is one of the four critical guidelines and if you look at our. The history of litigation and federal legislation as it relates to voting as it relates to drawing congressional districts. Minority representation with eyes I would bet. figure as the number one issue of the four guidelines. But I would also like to add that that is not the only benefit of this map. When we talk about tightly drawn districts to fit within the one percent or less deviation standard this map meets that standard and all of them do not all the maps that have come before you do not I believe there's only one map that better meets that standard but does not address. Minority representation. So if you are looking to support a map that addresses all for. Of the federal guidelines that we must take into consideration as we redraw our districts and especially for those of us who have expressed in the past during legislative sessions a concern for the Delta we all love to talk about our concern for the Delta. And in this map the delta region is not split between one and for the delta region is by and large drawn together in one district along with part of Pulaski County which would give much stronger representation to the delta delta region. And if you look at the map you know there is no gerrymandering all but two of our counties that means seventy three counties are included in a congressional district and the way that this map is drawn you have the northern largely the northern region. The northwest corridor in the north west corner in one district. You have a western region and then you have the delta region that encompasses part of Pulaski County. I don't know how better we could draw a map that again dresses all four of the federal guidelines avoids litigation meets the tight standard of one percent or less deviation in this map right here and with that I thank you so much for your attention and your questions thank you representative flowers. Committee the next item on today's agenda is Senate bill seven twenty sevens Senator Clark is unable to be here today so I believe Senator Elliot is going to make a presentation for the Senate bill Centralia if you would just have stated table that a value separate committee you're recognized president the Bill. I'm doing cellular to a state senator district thirty one Is Senator Clark couldn't be here but he was really pleasing that this is a very simple bill As some of you might remember when you discuss Senator Hester is bill I think a lot of people like to quite a great deal. And Senate Clark Is Senator Clark tells me and it is the case the difference between this bill and Senator Hester is bill. Is that up I'm such as a senator Chris bill party senator Chris bill and Senator Hester is bill is that Q. Lasky county is not split. That is the difference I was still able to do what so many other people struggling with doing. The other thing about this bill that is important is it looks in some ways much like representative flowers bill. Because it is I think one of those bills that take into account representation by ethnicity or race. But at the same time. Meets the other requirements or the other principles and I don't want to say anything more about Senator Tucker is a bill because I'll have more to say about that when I come to my bill and I don't want to say anything that doesn't represent what he intends to be represented so that's all I'll say about Senator Tucker spilled Mr chair. You saying no questions from committee members. I have a center at the two people signed up to speak against the bill okay. Matt miles are you. Yes if you would just come to the. Table and Mister mafi would just verify your zip of the committee and. You're recognized to speak against this bill yes Sir thank you Mister chairman and thank you Committee at of I'm here today my name is Matt miles I'm a row crop farmer initiate County I appreciate your give me the opportunity to be here to to to testify and I apologize for the same nervous and if if I do same nervous it's because I am I'm kind of a fish out of water here today. But I just wanted to to explain to the committee the importance of keeping you know the real crop counties together and in a previous bill out you know she had mentioned that you know it took care of the delta but it really doesn't you know the data can be looked at eight different as different things but I I look at it is the the row crop Mississippi basin from the from Missouri down to that would Louisiana line and for us to be able to have a fair voice of that community's getting smaller every day in the United States especially of maybe not you know we're fortunate here in Arkansas to still have a pretty good representation in a row crop industry within the United States as a whole it's it's definitely dwindling you know course we all know we're less than two percent of population and and just today I just want to you know the importance to me I'm I'm I come off of the combine today to be here farmer my son and my wife and my and my of darn also again thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here I just I just wanted to you know to to reach out the importance of keeping the row crop organization together it's still a big part of Arkansas's economy and we aren't you know in my opinion part of national security as far as food and fiber and safety and I just that's basically what I had what I had to say. Thank you Mr miles appreciate you know it's a busy time of the year for appreciate you being here today providing us with the testimony saying no questions from committee members you may excuse I have one other person Senator signed up to speak against the bill thank you Sir thank you. Not interrogatives. You would just invite yourself to the Committee and my memory because it's getting late I'm Donnie Scroggins away from Truman which is in Poinsett County Mr chairman I thank you for will know where that's at real simple. The hot topic today seems to be splitting counties up you look at this map or splitting districts up specifically I want to dress the first district it is what we want to call the roll crop argument it I think the first district needs to be left pretty well the way it is I realized all counties lost population you are the more fat somewhere but when you look at groups of people. Row crop farmers are away from Piggott Arkansas down to northern Louisiana I think that corridor which recalling the day off the and we have government programs that addresses the Delta all needs to be kept contiguous and I know The software you guys use them suffer person so I know you got to play with the numbers but that that's basically just market and what we need I know you have a hard decision here but let's keep the first district gathers much as we can thank you. Thank you Mr krijgen Senator no questions from committee members you can be excuse we appreciate your testimony thank you Mr. Senator Elliot you're recognized closed the with the bill. I thank you Mr chair I will make sure Senator Clark gets these comp these comments from the folks who testified leave it at that. Thank you senator of. If you would while you're at the table just recognize you to present the next item on today's agenda at your bill it's Senate bill seven twenty eight. Thank you you're recognized thank you Mr chair and members of it is it is never an easy thing to have to present difficult bills that I think we all have and trying to draw a map that is satisfactory to enough In fact does it. The one that representative flowers has one that represented Murdock. I presented. But here's the thing that I really want us to think about. We have talked about properly from the very beginning. People of interest from the very beginning groups of interest and it just seems that every time we come to. This issue made everything else but if we talk about interest when it comes to ethnicity and so forth is an issue. So the bill that the they map that I'm presenting to you. I all of the other. Requirements. The fact that as part of meeting those requirements as we don't split up any counties. As a part of that we just go that step further and do what is legal to do. Provide an opportunity that is the language not guarantee anybody anything what this what this map does is provides an opportunity. That groups with common interests might have the influence might have the influence. Of electing somebody that they might want to elect. And if you think this is anything on. To even ask redistricting here some information for you from the twenty twenty census. Southern states. Southern states specifically there are ten states with at least one minority majority district ten. Not every single one of those. Had to have maybe the same guidance of this discussion that we're having. But some of them might have fallen out just by population but some. Are drawn just as we talked about row crops. Just as we talked about economics. This is not different. Some states have included all of these principles. Here are the states that have the majority districts. All of them are not. The Confederate states. But. All of them at one point or another. War slate states. Except for probably Florida there is a different thing going on with Florida Alabama has won district Florida has ten it's a big state you might understand why they would have several. Georgia has five Louisiana has one. Maryland has for Mississippi has one more Zuri has one North Carolina Carolina has to Texas has thirteen once again a big state more opportunity Virginia has three. And all of us are kind of at a disadvantage in that we don't get to serve long enough I guess that's a disadvantage of not depend on who you're talking to I have been down here for a little longer so if anybody in this room right now. I have been. In a place. I don't know maybe jim Hendren might he might have been here when this happened. But I've been a part of something like this exactly one time. Exactly one time. We don't get an opportunity very often nor does anybody even bring it to you today with these other states on. I clearly say to you. I am asking you to consider doing what other states have done. Because to do so doesn't mean you have to run a file of a single guideline. I just hope we will do it. Thank you Mr chair take any questions. Representative Ladyman you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman Senator Elliott one of the items that we need to stick with his. Commenters commonality when I look at your map as well as the last. Two that have been presented and the they've talked about the bill to would you know I live in the delta yes and I'm not in this with the southern delta counties you know clay Greene Craighead Poinsett cross Mississippi even all the way over to Paring some of those counties. The agriculture counties they have a lot in common so why aren't those put together in one district because they have commonality thank you note of representatives come down to a numbers game and if we are looking to make sure we've met all of the other guidelines if we want to meet the one that I just referenced when you look at the counties of the population we went with the population just make more sense that's the reason they're not there. But it's not because you know I think we all know is not possible to represent every community of interest there is and I'm just bring in this one from historical standpoint where are you know in this in the United States there a hundred and twenty to two hundred twenty two districts in the United States. That meet this guideline that I bring to you today. But there is not going to be a map where. every person who is a part of a group of interest is going to be in that group. But do you think of the requirements good I have a follow up Mr you're recognized do you think we should just focus on one of the requirements and not the other three I mean we need to look at all three of those and I just focus on what I said exactly the opposite of that when I opened that this map represents these other principles. But it also goes a step further and represents the fourth principal. So. But would you agree it doesn't meet all four requirements absolutely not I don't agree with that it does need all for the requirements. Follow up right now thank you Mr okay thank you Senator Ballinger you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr. What so so there are basically two two concerns and and one reason why people are talking about race is because of we're talking about race there's a lot better chance that we're going to to draw something that is is unconstitutional it's easier to not deal with the majority minority and and deal with the the population than it is to try to try to come down and dresses and and there's in the reason as you can you can fail on two parts right you can fail by trying to dilute to eliminate a minority district or you could fell by diluting the the minority vote in a district so this is something that that represent Payton brought up as. Well your map would strengthen the people in Southeast Arkansas who or of minority population to to in theory elect somebody who looks like them right but it also dilutes it from whichever of the district so you're taking you know the minority population that could have influenced the second district could have influenced the fourth District Court of influence and and bringing them together if and so I think that that's a lot in the reason for that is so you look at the state of Florida with all those millions of population elected a minority as as one of its state senators right the question is in a primary and in a now this case of the Republican and Republican primary in Florida there probably was significant minority impact in who who represented the Republican Party moving forward because of the fact that that they across the full state were well represented and I think that you can find the same thing happening in Arkansas where you can actually dilute and you could take away the voice of minority population if you taking you pull them on cram them into one one Senate district and if we do that I think that we are running a final if what we're doing is taking in consideration I'm a minority population to pull into one district in order to strengthen I think we could be running afoul of of what our constitutional requirements are met I think it's better to just try to draw contiguous districts represent you know county lines be be consonant of that that we're not doing that but ultimately in the end thank it is better to not consider that really rather than consider that at and possibly run afoul of of federal guidelines you understand where I'm coming from on that house how it it's a it's a double edged sword cuts both ways that as you bring them all into one district you're diluting their voice in another district I clearly do and and I I disagree with your point I understand what you say because what the law allows us a lot asked us not to pack or crack. right now the way we draw every map cracks the minority population. Cracks. It what know what let me finish please it cracks my not minority population. And I know you'd be tempted to say on the other hand well your pack in the minority population but there is a threshold before you got to Paki if this were district there were sixty percent minority then I would be in trouble for packing. But if it's the and it's about fifty point two percent fifty point two. And when it gets to the point of forty percent that is when you want to start looking for opportunities if you can draw on map that gets a and B. the other principals as well. And with in that within that mapped the guidelines and and they are boundaries there is a forty percent minority population. Then you have a responsibility then from my standpoint because our history is not great on this can we go further and get to a map that is more representative for people might have an opportunity. Senator is recognized. Just one quick follow up so so ten years ago the maps were drawn did they crack and then a follow up but you know or for the question that is did you vote for those maps ten years ago. I did vote for the map that was finally presented to the to the body and yes that Matt did to some cracking because this state has been cracking minority representation practically since its inception so and the the other way I would respond to that senator senator is that we get to do this every ten years we can continue to do the same thing if we desire or we can decide this is a new time what we need to have new thoughts and think differently about what happened ten years ago even if there were Democrats that were in control at that time you might just win why you voted for map the correct ten years ago the big because that was a map that was the best map that was out there the one I voted for was the best one regardless of what it did just like any other legislation. Senator Garner. You're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman so I just a quick math phone I believe your new second or fourth district in its second district based on the new census data in a state that has fifteen point seven percent African American population this districtbe drone it roughly a forty percent African American population I would look at it from two different angles what the voter's right act does say that you can't dilute other districts in order to create a certain. The other minority populations but. I think you've already failed I think Senator Ballinger and represent Payton discussed that but what about a basic fourteen Amendment protection issue where you're now creating district that seems be solely on one major contributor which is race drawn in a way that is not in the general population of Arkansas and it seems to be done for that specific purpose would you be open this up to a fourteenth amendment of violation and doing such. No because I will say this once again I I am not ignoring the other requirements I am adding what other people did not bother to at. So no. Thank. The representative flowers you're recognized for a question thanks thank you and thank you for this bill and your explanation senator Elliots I just have been listening to the conversation and have found it to be a valuable and rich conversation because prior to the last few bills there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion about minority representation. And I just was struck a few minutes ago when you pointed out that probably you and Senator Hendren were here the last time we did this and nobody else and there's a lot of I think concerned around the possibility of running afoul of federal guidelines in law and constitution. Can you tell us in the last process whether there was conversation about. Minority representation and if there was whether or not that precipitated A. A legal challenge that rendered the map that was selected unconstitutional. Because of the conversation. I. So you ask me first why is there a map that was set forth. I'm asking you whether or not there was I heard that you if we're talking about race it could present legal problems yeah. No and there was discussion about there was discussion in odd twenty ten I guess it was there wasn't any discussion about a map of the type I'm talking about here mmhm and but there was also discussion about there was discussion about running the file that was minimal. But in the end there was there was not a map that was passed I know people have worked on that map that type of man to at least that people working on but never felt that they had the the support to get it passed. And I and I just keep thinking how many more ten years I don't care who is in office all of us or Kansans we're all a community out of the interest. So would somebody did ten years ago I wish it happened then it didn't you can look back ten years from now and say I wish this had happened then. It didn't use must have no idea what it's like to be at the way wham of somebody else's wish all the time. All the time. When we could have somebody who doesn't look like me sitting here making this case. Because we're all together. And I is this is confounding to me nobody has accused anybody else. Of doing something that might be against the law because the advocate for those communities of interest otherwise that's not even a conversation. Only twenty six. Senator Clark you're recognized for a question thank you Senator Elliot yes the. Many of the maps of I would say most. I have left of Pulaski County and but it either with a look at whole or in my case were left most of it. Of in district two and a district to the as much like it is now Faulkner Conway. Of in a very urban district and you can't get more urban than Pulaski County in Arkansas. Of and with their and selain and areas that I think a very lock interest of. Especially when it comes to commerce and growth and but you've included Pulaski County with. The delta of the N. with timber. And I'm trying to figure out. Those interest. Those walk interest. Well as I would say that everybody who talks about you know we had something one time call the urban caucus rule caucus and the urban caucus basically Cholesky county you can drive three minutes and it direction in Pulaski County and be in the woods. Which is probably why the official. Designation of the Delta includes Pulaski County. And I'll just. Get back to Senator that. There is no way every single thing is going to want to be accounted for for example like Q. Lasky County the end and urban area and the end part of the delta of I can't change that. But it doesn't leave the Lasky County disconnected from some larger urban area says for the most people are. Yes that's not any different from what it is right now basically this is connected to draft this income and this and this map where pine bluff is. So. I guess the thing that I would like to leave with everybody is. I'm presenting a map. If you believe and what I'm sitting here saying and you want to help me do better. Help me do better. I make this principle as well I'm totally open to that and asking for your help. Thanks we've got one person signed up to speak of follow up Mr. I'm sorry senator Clark on a recognized need to follow up you're recognized. Yes this central AR no because of my map that I took out a hundred thousand folks into the district one in district four and so took out basically the rule areas plus can County so that left basically three hundred thousand people that were urban of which is almost half of the district so you have three hundred thousand people that are open. Versus the rest of the district being rule or most of it being role and again big part of it down in south Arkansas being timber that over to the eastern part being row crop and I'm trying to find again that common interest that I see in other maps. Well the common interest that you Not saying they're not other ways to do it but that was the way that I sought to do with that may make sense to me and the fact that I'll be less the county has three hundred thousand or so urban folks Senate you know that that's a group of folks who can fend for themselves pretty much less a large group. But if there's another way to do it. On I'm open for because clearly this is I'd like to see us to see you get into that for principle not perhaps on the others thank you I'm sorry. You have a question for senator I did not understand the common as it also you get to the core principle not perhaps to some of the other. Well senator you want company what was not a question okay okay Senator Elliot we've got one person up no further questions from committee members got one person signed up to speak well I'm not sure if it's for against the bill but Scotty Taylor. This killer if you would. The state and the data by yourself to the committee and you're recognized present your testimony is this on I'm Scotty Keller I'm from Faulkner County. And what she's done is move Faulkner County to the first district as much as somebody wants a the other counties put left where they are I think Faulkner County ought to be left where it is it has been there for as long as I've been around and so and I think it is certainly them certainly in line with Pulaski County of in the urban areas I don't exactly understand why she has chosen to remove Faulkner County and. To the other comment Senator Elliot you certainly ran for Congress and so there must be a way to run and there must be I'm sure she got enough votes to ma'am are you speak and yeah I need you to keep your comments in regards to this bill well another word she is talking about she is talking about minorities and she's talking about where the real lines are drawn Faulkner County is basically in the second district and that is where she ran and so I'm all I'm saying is that they do re light I'm sorry okay thank you say no questions from committee members miss Keller you're excused Rep Senator Elliot you're recognized close we bill. I thank you Mr chairman I just anticipated that last comment I can sure you yeah I from the second district twice I'm not running again. I and it is really important that if you choose to miss represents what I have said here today I want the public to be very clear it is your choice but what I choose to do is not cut off by the fact that I might have run for office. And if we want. To leave this place. And try to make the case that African American Joyce Elliott came only and talked about black people you will be missed misrepresenting and lying about anything I said here today. I have tried to make it very clear and people are insistent on having it their way you can't make what I say. Equal what you wish I had said because you want to. Because I am in no way saying that we should draw a map. That's just going to be about minorities and it does say minorities. I did not say that I said this is the principle that we have left out and it is only when we get to this principle it seems everything goes off the rails not for the other is in fact we've had people advocate for the other three. But this one takes us off the rails why is that can we fix it you don't like what I'm doing. Put your heart and it put your head into it I must fix it that's all I ask thank you Mr chairman committee thank you senator Elliots. Committee members next item on today's agenda is. House Bill one nine six six nineteen sixty six by representative makes. The president representative makes you would justify yourself you're recognized to present your bill. Representative Stephen Meeks and colleagues wishes get that set up I appreciate everyone's longevity here and hopefully you all will agree or seven one of the best for last right so I'm gonna try to be concise and short my presentation of this Matt partly because I think a good map should be able to all sell itself Sullivan hit to some of the highlights of what I've brought before you today and then I will be available to are trying to answer any questions that you have first off of what it is I try to listen all the concerns we went through the debate earlier last week and tried to bring that to this map the first concern we all had was whole counties this map does maintain whole counties across the state as a matter of fact it has also very low variances they range from our point zero eight point zero nine point one five one point one seven and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a map with whole counties that have a lower variance than this map does the second thing I try to do is keep communities of like interest together you'll see we keep the Delta together over in district one district two basically stays the exact same thing with the the exception of Van Buren County we put in district three all the Ozark county's together and then I want to stop and talk about districts for so district for. The challenge we have in this part of the state is it is an area where we have a declining population and so to try to offset that decline in what we do anticipate is further decline going into the future I wanted to make sure that we included a large city I also like in district one we've got Jonesborough District two of got the Little Rock area district three we've got the Northwest Arkansas court or so in district four I moved fat bill or to make a move Fort Smith into that area so the growth of Fort Smith can help offset any declines that we have from the rural areas the other thing that I did is you'll notice that all the counties in the top part of the fourth district are counties that aligning the Arkansas River so we create and the community of interest there among the counties that are along the Arkansas River so everything from levy's floods drought commerce traffic so there's a like a community there and then also obviously and Southwest Arkansas you have the the timber industry so we keep like communities together these changes only affect sixteen counties are the majority of those affected are elimination of the partial counties to make all the counties whole and so what that does is it maintains the continuity of representation so the vast majority of these counties will still enjoy the same representation that they have today the other thing it does is it maintains roughly the same Republican Democrat balance that we have in the state now so that will hopefully take care of any concerns about any germane to that may be taking place also if you look at this map you can see that these maps are these districts are concise there's no fingers there's no spikes there's no. The little rivers running from here to there these districts are geometrical their square and so it maintains that I'm trying to keep things up size and so for all these reasons I think this is a very strong map I think it would be very resilient to legal challenges because of those reasons that I mentioned and with that colleagues I'll be happy to entertain any questions that you might have. Any questions from committee members. Say none no one signed up to speak up for against the bill representative to make sure you're recognized close with your bill all right well thank you colleagues I appreciate the opportunity to present this bill to you today and I would at the proper time would definitely be grateful for your support thank you. Thank you representative makes committee members next item on today's agenda is Senate bill seven twenty nine senator Johnson. Yes. Thank you senator for waiting patiently as the last one on today's agenda for the congressional maps. Identify yourself to the committee and you're recognized to present your bill thank you Mr chairman members the committee I Mark Johnson Senate district fifteen of I appreciate my friend representative make saying save the best for last since he didn't realize he had wanted to go and. And I will say that I do like his map it looks similar to mine I think we're thinking along the same lines and I want to go over three four points because it's important for us to look at this philosophically not just. Whose ox gets gored because let's face it none of us are completely happy with anything that we're going to come up with here. The lady that has testified on several bills mentions her feeling that keeping counties together and that's where I started when I was looking at this process. I think it's important to keep counties together I think it's probably one of the most important things we can do because our citizens get confused. For example a Van Buren county has three Senator Senator Davis Senator Irvin and me a the city of Maumelle has three. State senators it has Senator English and center Chesterfield and me and their people are confused I think to the extent we possibly can we need to eliminate the number of different ballot styles in an area we need to exemplify the process for our voters and we do need to keep communities together as as mentioned now within that we have to we have to draw some lines and and and we've done this of let me just go to the thought process on the changes in the ones are no are controversial they were in this I had a previous bills pulled out earlier Senate bill seven twenty. And it's very similar this except for two counties and I had put to I had moved addition a and she co County from the first district to the fourth district and I'll just say I heard from some of those folks don't smile center your war. But the fact is that they did make a strong case about keeping the agricultural interests together and I heard from some of my colleagues on that same point of they're not highly populated counties but they were counties in an area that has lost population so when I read through and came up with set Senate bill seven twenty nine returned she co in addition a county into the first district I was unable to also keep Lincoln County in there and make the numbers work I would like to have done the but again politics is the art of the possible we can deviate a little bit and we should and I really appreciate the Mr Yang pointing out the the case law on the case and West Virginia we're having portent it was named by the Supreme Court to keep communities together and not just simply be a numbers game. All of us should realize one thing we are here in almost October of twenty twenty one looking at twenty twenty census numbers. COVID not withstanding those numbers are continuing to change northwest Arkansas is still going to grow and east and Southeast Arkansas are probably still going to shrink so every day the numbers change so yes we want to get close we want to be with their parents but we shouldn't be so wedded to it that we can't be a little bit off and not do the right thing in the long run because nine years from now I guess we'll be looking at this again if we get the census bureau to do their job the big change there's two big changes from the status quo in in this map and both of them gave me heartburn but I looked at it is things had to be dealt with inevitably in this year must be a better time I think to do it one is. Sebastian County would move from the third district to the fourth that would make Fort Smith the largest city in the fourth district and a lot of people Fort Smith will be unhappy with that changes should it take place I understand that I have a strong affinity for White County White County just seems to be the to me the anchor of the second district maybe no I work for congressman Wilbur mills when he was our second district congressman when he came to Congress in nineteen thirty eight White County was the southern most County in the second district and when he left Congress in nineteen seventy seven it was the northern most capped. Things change and we have to adapt to that but I do think it's important that we we make note those changes Polk County would move to the second district of Polk County. Sir Davis is kind of a border county it could kind of go either way I think would be comfortable it's representation of the main thing I tried to do other than keep counties together was this I think one of the beautiful things about Arkansas is we have our beautiful rural areas and we also have our cities are strong good cities across the state. I fear. When we take one district and it would be the third and turn it into a I'm a metroplex type situation like you have in Dallas fort worth we would we would end up in ten years with a urban district instead I like the idea of spreading it around a little bit each district will have rural aspects each district will have urban aspects and I while there nothing is perfect and again this is the thing is going to change every day I believe it would would meet those criteria I'd be happy to answer any questions Mr. Representation thank you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair I just have a question because it keeps saying that little tip their annual counting. That is it's in between pope in Conway that's actually part of the county I know what it speaks. But what is that is are people that live there or what is that yes ma'am representative Richmond could probably tell you more details of the demographics but that's that's just a little odd ball corner of yell county and has to do where the river it's it's just it it's a county that's where the county line is it's There is no there's a levy there because it almost breach during the flood to twenty nineteen but I cannot tell you what the population is but that that is that is following county lines you're recognized for a follow up. How is because I've seen this with other maps today how or do they get to that part do they have to go through pope OR through Conway County to get there or it is on the south side of the river the Arkansas River represents speak so he would he would access through Perry or yell or Conway County thank you. Thank you Mr chair thank you saying no further questions from committee members we've got one person signed up to speak. I'm assuming against the bill miss Britain. If you have additional testimony was upset earlier up in regards this bill that you didn't have all the others then you're recognized speak. He is Richelle Britain again. And and I promise you this time it's not about splitting Pulaski. That's that's that's all the others I spoke against with that were that of the park the problem I have with this is I want is I wonder if he is if the. The if the senator Johnson is aware. That one of the announced candidates for second district Congress lives in White County. And at your map would would it your map would move him to the first district. Miss Britain hold on just a minute center this is not an exchange of questions and answers between someone testifying at the table in the sponsor of the bill the spread if you wanna make comments and I speak against a bill that's fine that said Genser Johnson can come back and he is closing in the dress anything that you say aye okay well all right well I think that that was that was my main comment against the bill that I believe it's a bill that I believe it's a form of gerrymandering to to remove White County from the second district for reasons of for reasons other than. Some of this than some of the proposals like senator Elliots and senator flowers. Thank you okay thank you no questions from committee members as senator Johnson you're recognized close with the bill. Thank you Mr chairman a to ensure lays question I didn't realize that someone even asked this early against congressman Health assuming congressman Health would want to run again but the fact of matter is anybody include all those of us in this room that announce on what were they gonna run in twenty twenty two we might not find ourselves in the district that we think we're going to be and and I think it would be true for members of Congress however I did not answer questions I did not know about that or even take that into consideration let me close by saying. I think counties are important I think simplifying the ballots I checked with our election commissioner in delaski county and I ask her how many different ballot styles we have we have Four if you include all schools owns everything we have five hundred fifty two different precincts splits just in Pulaski County we need to make this simpler not more complicated I think it was a mistake in twenty ten to split counties in the first place Arkansas does not have to do that to come up with good congressional districts districts that follow the the the feelings of our people the variance within the reasonable notice and also we should think of keeping our districts where there are rural and urban at the same time thank you so much for opportunity make a presentation thank you senator Johnson committee members this concludes the a portion of today's agenda concerning the congressional redistricting at this time I'm going to the father chairmanship over to my co chair Senator Rapert for the rest of the entity agenda thank you. All right members thank you for your diligence here today we're going to try to move expeditiously we actually have people that are driven. Many miles to be here waited a few hours and so what I'd like to do or if you will. Bring your attention to the bottom of the agenda you'll see discussion of regarding presidential executive orders on vaccine mandates as well as baxeen requirements for nursing students because one of the people that are here actually drove in and is a constituent is one of the people that call that prompted this I'm actually going to have them come and present their comments before we take up any of this because it frankly affects both of these items and that will allow that citizen to have the first voice Mr Chad bonder you in the room Sir. And then that will allow members to be able to ask some of our witnesses about some of the things as we go through this Mr bond I appreciate your due diligence Sir I told you we didn't know how long it would take to get there so if you could have a seat and you should be able to press that button right there on the microphone and Mr bond if you would for the record you state your name and who you represent if anybody other than yourself. Yes Sir my name is Chad bond I represent myself and my family most importantly my calendar okay you're recognized for your comments in members these comments have to do with is daughter that's a role at one of our public universities and a nursing program and their families being affected by the vaccine mandate you're recognized for your testimony Sir. Thank you I come here today. Because me and my family tremendously impacted by this Monday. Our most importantly my daughter has been in the use a program. For the last three and a half years. I'm sorry two and a half. She is what her mom and Daddy. As she's grown all. Support and defend our constitution. By mark in my direct. Serving my country is she got to watch her mom welcome home sign. The medical field to help the ones that needed help. She is in truly inspired to move on into the medical field where she wanted to get her nursing. And possibly move on beyond that. To get a nursing program or the nurse practitioner. up to recently. We knew that this mandate was coming and going but however I teach my kids to you know don't want the system do what's right get in all is just trying to work through it is everyone's trying to work through this mandate on whether the vaccine is is effective or not effective. On she is trying to get a hold of you see a and work with them and due to you see As neglect. Or in actions that I would say. Is requiring a mandate mandatory vaccination of all the students are in the nursing program. I'll break that down a bit further because you see a has done these contracts with these clinicals. Into these these contracts they get their accreditation for the nursing program. My daughter. Is. Supposed to go to some these clinicals and have sent a letter to UCLA that says in order for any your students to attend. Or call our clinic server quite a how of the vaccination. Now the problem is my daughter went call two one the head of the nursing program to try to find out Hey can I get names of these clinics that she could possibly go to so she can see if there's any exemptions that they would allow. And that is not to Buck the system but however that is to allow her to. You know pursue those avenues that are rights. And the Collins you see a specifically told her that there is not any exemptions as soon as I heard this I called they had a nursing. I was infuriated as any father would. You know I put this on my daughter she's a young adult she's twenty years old. You know it's hard decision. Would also be hard decision is between her her beliefs and how she's land by the one and all money. So the eye contact to the head of nursing program on trying to explain to them Hey I don't understand how are you requiring all the students mandating the shops on the student. You know to go to these clinics. No make any sense. Because I know for a fact that some these clinics allow these exemptions to their own employees what you're failing to yield these exemptions for the state. She told me specifically that Sir that is what we've gotten. And that's what they mandated. Now. Just to be clear. That she was not very remorse to any in the concerns that our I have. We're talking about young adults. And is that the pivotal of their immune system. So I ask for our civil if you're not if if you're saying that the mandate calling from these clinics that you have these contracts within in please give us these clinics name so we can contact them ourselves if we need. I simply because my daughter is trying to get in they have refused and she said I'm sorry we can't do that. And I said okay so you can give me the name of these clinics. Your mandating the shots as she made it very clear that you say was not mandating the shots but other outside of I mean these this call is the one that we got this contracts with these clients so they can have their accreditation so the students can get their hands on requirements to meet the requirements of that that degree. You can't deny the affiliation. So I asked her I said if you're refusing to give me the names of my daughter the names then would you be willing. To send a letter to these clinics the ask. If they have any exemptions for the students that will possibly attend their clinics she said we will not do that. And I told her you're doing nothing more than mandating a shot. On the students. And they have made it very clear to the students that if you do not get the shot you will not meet the objectives for next semester. The problem is we're talking about. Students they're trying for fill a need in society we're talking about nursing nurses. We all need on. Without them they're the ones is going to take care of us when we need it. But yet we find ourselves continually. Driving these people away from this career field that is so critical. So critical that it could impact on national defense. Because they're the ones is going to take care of the home front. I just. I don't get it. We're mandating a shot that we know. That will not. Prevent. The spread or catch. This is a shot that we know from the studies and for the things that have developed. The all it does is protect the individual. I understand. That if this was something to do with protection of the patient themselves. It would be selfish of us to refuse this. But however that's not the case. And think you know we listen to the CDC and FDA and everyone about all this. And we put our kids in a mask in the top of our search since the citizens in math. And at one point that was good enough. And to appointed still good enough but for the medical field now that there's a development we're saying that you got to have a shot. Or even on the final saw. Well for the medical field this is the exact same people. That try to help the ones that had the virus sacrifice I read where a nurse. Dedicate over hundred two hours in one week. There is pandemic. You do the math. But this same person is having issues. A different route now. It makes sense if they're good or not then why anything good enough now. If our concerns on the patient's. And we know the shot. It's only affected to the individual. The one we mandating that. Why are we not focus on the truth route calls. The true recalls. If our concerns is the patients. It shouldn't matter if you've been vaccinated or not. That's not even talking about the ones that have the antibodies that are proven to be. What will times stronger against the defense of the virus. And we're driving the ones that are willing to sacrifice themselves in their lives. For duty. And we need. Everyone's help with this. Splines one three thank you. Thank you so much for let me have the opportunity to be able to speak. And I. S. you know please get in law is not right for college to mandate this thing on the students because if for students just because our students they still have the same right. You know these are grown these are growing children. That said twenty forty all right Mister bond we appreciate your comments members if you have questions I see somebody seat eighty nine so Sir. Senator Hammer you're recognized for a question for Mr mon thank you Sir what the he's when you're thank you Mr when when you were when your daughter was assigned to work. Or has she been assigned to work at the clinical shared or has she been given the list yet or they withholding that because she's not got a shot I just wanted clarification on that please. So third on thirty this semester she is allowed to do her clinical tissue dispenser clinicals and one thing I would add that she does currently are is employed in a clinic. And they are regardless of the vaccination or not they're refusing to give the list. Vaught Mr thank you Sir cut me off the number of when so she is currently working in a clinical now will she completed her clinical hours by the end of this semester. Or will she need to do more clinical after the semester yes Sir shall be required to do more clinical is after this semester okay but where she is right now at this time she's not being denied her clinical time because she has not gotten the shot because she's already placed in those facilities is that correct thanks okay thank you. Mr bond I want to ask you and and it is lousy to clarify further so that we clearly understand what negative impact to your daughter and the family restate that so's conclusive to us a issue being impaired from finishing the program and somewhere another is it error are you aware of that she may not be able to finish so tell us that. Thank you for given opportunity on I am a little nervous and I got a lot to say but that is the most important part in main reason I'm here today I got a daughter that has a three point eight. GPA that is made the dean's list throughout her time as college. And our last Sally have to admit that she will have to withdraw from college do this mandate that you see a has put. On her. And it's going to prevent her from continuing. To pursue her dreams. And due to their actions in the Niles or inactions. Is the reason the cost for that. Has there been any accommodation when you ask in have you spoken to anyone there directly about this issue at you she a administrative level. Yes Sir outside of just talking to the head a nurse on of the nursing program. On I've called the dean I left a message however I have. Have not been able to make a contact with her to discuss this further with them. And you know every day that passes by. Is. Is slowly slipping her dreams and desires for this in this house to be. Your the right questions have to be asked to the right people why are we doing this. I have a question again I believe from senator Hammer thank thank you Mr the I just wanna clarify the reason I was asking those questions because I was trying to get around my mind that she's not backs needed she's working in a clinic currently in order to get or clinical hours if I understood you right you said she is employed at a at a at a clinical setting is that right yes Sir she's currently employed at a at a price and the. Family practice in Conway as a receptionist and I will say that you know there. They're procedures that they have is it don't matter if you mandate if you have the shot or not they do a test on all employees just ensure that you know they're not put any of their patients in harm's way right and. And that clinic has given her the option. Of either testing or getting the shot is that correct. Yes Sir is to my knowledge I would say that that clinic has non mandated her to give that how to get that shot okay and that's that's kind of the point of driving to is why would you deny somebody the ability to go work in a clinic and if you're not allow them bill to go work in that clinic why when you terminate them immediately from the program instead of letting her finish out to the end of semester and and I'm just trying to you may not have the answer the question but I'm sure people are watching this I'm wondering that the rationale is not there as to as to how this is playing out second thing I was wondering is if your daughter is not allowed to continue the program because she is not willing to submit to the mandate to take the vaccine as the university offered you any full refund because they are terminating her right to complete the program that she's entered in and there are a lot of courses that you might not be able to transfer to another degree program would use apparently willing to accept the full refund from the institution if that if that became the plate the the choices she was terminated. I understand you would bill fulfill our dream yes I'm just saying it seems like a violation of contract and I'm just wondering would you as a parent take full refund from the institution. Yes I would be prepared on but. You know is that is not about the money for us our sense not about the money for her on and we haven't had that discussion with the the school themselves currently I got my daughter. All preparing for to see politics cease and desist on continued to pursue this this career into a things can either settle down and we figure out what the right way to go is on there's concerns for her you know the long term effects of the shot. Those are the things that we're missing and we're overlooking those things all knowing that there's a lot of studies that have come out with you know inflammatory hearts. You know black lives. If she is mandated to have the shot. Who's going to sign that waiver. Because if you're making a mandate. The what it sees what is she waving. Her help her freedom. True concern. But to your question Sir on. On. I know those credits and that she is our may or may not be transferred and you know if that's a something that is proposed us we would be willing to accept thank you they Mr. All right thank you senator good question for percent of Crawford. Thank you Mr chair. Of part statement part question thank you for coming and talking to us today. I said in the same chair that you said I'm very frustrated. We live in the United States of America we do not lay down our freedoms when there's a pandemic. We've been for our countrymen which I think we've all done. And I thank you for your service I am just a you know ecstatic for the first responders and what they've done. But would you say that people are overlooking. today we're learning. Even today we're learning that people who have taken the covid. Jabs shot have done there are two regiments so far. A are testing positive for covid and I don't know that they have that so they themselves are spreading to places. Like nursing homes in different places where people get their clinicals would you agree that in that case that testing should be done for all and at that time make the decision. Yes ma'am I do one hundred percent. All right of Mr bond I want to go ahead and ask since we're talking at this level and I'm and I appreciate members for limited allow Mister bond be appear recognized first I like missed kick to go ahead and come up whose with UAMS so that you might could make comments and ask questions and I also want to make members aware that staff is passed down to you you see a was asked to be here apparently some other folks were unavailable to be here and Jeremy Gillam who is the director government affairs prepared an email which you have seen here he was unavailable I do see in the email that it states towards the bottom of your note that at this time we only have two locations that are accepting unvaccinated students for rotations and both of these institutions give clinical preference to their own internal students before receiving any outside students so there is another mention that sounds like Mr bonds tried to find out where we could get the student Into another another program give them some option As a as an editorial comment I'll just say I think it's pretty sad it's almost an insult to injury to all of the students that their college careers have been interrupted by the pandemic in the first place and they're striving to even go into this field knowing even the dangers involved and we find now that after all this time and money and effort at the end that this is this is the quandary that you find yourself in. I just wish that there would be more effort made in situations like this to make some accommodation I don't find it acceptable frankly just to give your money back. I think it frankly that we should find a way to to make sure that the students are able to complete their studies and and I will say this and and people get mad if they want to us but we've seen what's happened the vaccinations were we were told you take a vaccination you don't have to wear a mask anymore you go back to normal you're protected wonderful that's what we were told and now we see that more and more people are testing positive now we're even told the people can still spread it I for I foresee in the next months maybe over a year that will be at a point where this current vaccination won't even be utilized we'll be talking about a new one and so I think it's sad that people are being threatened to be fired students are point where they may not be able to continue their studies when we absolutely know that the efficacy continues to come down it's a sad situation I think there needs to be more common sense more concerned so Mr von I appreciate your comments I'm gonna let you stay there for just a minute so that if there is a question related to this Mr CAC you're not speaking on behalf of you CA I know but you were asked to speak on this particular issue so if you could enlighten us from your perspective you state your name and who you represent for the record thank you Mr chairman I Michael can I come with the office of institutional relations with the University of Arkansas for medical sciences in accordance with the ACT nine seventy seven passed by this legislative body and signed by the governor we do not have a vaccine mandated UAMS the vaccines that are in place or the ones that have been in place for years with MMR T. dapa hepatitis vaccine varicella Tigers or back saying the TB skin test and a flu vaccine we have worked with our students to encourage and promote the covered back saying in a price. Emily seventy eight percent of those students that are in the college of nursing have been vaccinated at this time we have consistently stated in our communication with staff and our communication with nurses or communication with students that we are not allowed to have a covert vaccine mandate that you A. M. S. and we do not many of our nursing students do clinical rotations at UAMS those that are involved in transitioning from our into BSN or pursuing a BSN degree those that are pursuing specific additional training beyond a BSN may be required to a clinical rotation outside of UAMS in those situations there are a grievance in place for for students would be asked to get an additional vaccine in those situations where there is a disagreement we work with the student with the facility if there is not a way that agreement can be achieved we work to find another potential placement for the student. All right senator garner you're recognized for a question Sir thank you Mr chairman I appreciate you bringing up and that we do have a law a bill to prohibit this state entities from be able to ask for vaccination status that should include you CA as well so the school was punishing anybody or taking enrollment out of that for vaccine requirements ko nineteen they be a violation of law and I believe they're open so it's up to a potential large lawsuit let's speak to that because I had a dental hygiene student who was at UAMS who said that she was told multiple times he was forced to get a vaccine nor do our clinicals she was told that if she did not there would be no accommodations to were and that that could ultimately lead to her not having be enrolled in the program Justin hygiene student I've known her for a long time she wrote me in confidence a loss that will say your name but it was her impression that the school was forcing this in order to complete her degree are you saying today openly and objectively that UAMS will not terminate anybody's enrollment in schools for failure to get a vaccine. Sir regarding the. I do not know the specifics of what you're talking about and and and all of our programs we have consistently stated that there is not a COVID vaccine mandate that you make a mess. And there's there's there's not one the specifics of the incident thing you're you're stating I do not know I can speak specifically to the meetings that I've been involved with emails that I have received and no the word mandate has not been used unless it is stated that we have to come before the ALC to get approval to do it. Okay I just wanna make sure to clarify that because yes or no there is no vaccine requirement for COVID nineteen in order to complete your degree at UAMS in any of the multiple feel stress thank you M. S. yes Sir thank you. Mr Quek on that note because it's relevant to the point of the Biden mandate which is we're going to transition back to that overall as it affects some other folks in our state but the bad mandate as it relates to Medicaid money. So Medicaid money is received by you A. M. S. is that correct Medicaid money is received by every hospital and every says almost every physician offices and clinics throughout the state of Arkansas okay How are you how and how is U. A. M. S. the the teaching entity. Able to separate completely from that situation or the Medicaid money is coming to you A. M. S.. Senator Rapert I can tell you right now that that announcmenet was made by by president Biden if he is charge CMS with making rules and regulations for that to be promulgated those rules and regulations have not been posted or nor are they available for public comment I think it would be somewhat premature for me to speculate exactly what they're going to say I do know that in his directive was very specific not just in regards to Medicaid but also Medicare reimbursement as well so we are we are looking closely and awaiting those rules and rags so we can begin to make decisions on on how we how we work okay members of got five that are there lit up on the board here Sharon Sturch we're gonna go these questions but I remind you that we have we're at four fifteen and we've got some other people want to speak so we'll make sure that we are able they the edge date actually general or I believe the national guards here and been waiting patiently for hours so we wanna make sure that they at least get to speak to this got Senator Clark I believe is the first one yes Sir Senator yes I want to dig down on this Mr up because we had this problem a national park Hot Springs. Of. The appreciate the your requirement but you do have those situations where and this is the catch twenty two what you see a it's the best one to a national park college of where because of clinicals outside. That that entity is requiring callbacks nations and your trying to find another place are you always able to find another place. Not as expeditiously as we would like because it will cause a national park would like to another place but they said they actually can so what entities are we dealing with because of I'm assuming that with those they probably also have a relationship with the state because so who are these entities that are doing the clinicals the or in fact forcing the students who think it's the school adjusters will be the school as far as they're concerned Senator there's I would be happy to get you a list of those because there's a there's a long number of those with whom you A. M. S. works with that you know give me the to miss the specifics of which you know I know for a fact that the heart hospital for example has implemented a covered vaccine requirement we have nursing students that work through their children's hospital has is in the process of implementing one and students go through a a rotation there the timing of when those things go into a place and where students are in a program it impact some and it doesn't impact of each. Yes I would thank you Mr correct Mister chair I would note that is if we're going to do anything to help the students you have to follow up on works really coming from and now you have an answer to work really coming from thank you thank you senator Clark representative makes you're recognized Sir. Thank you Mr chairman here front and I'll try to be real brief I just wondered if you could take a little bit deeper when you said you're trying to work with students that are on vaccinated to try to help them can you talk about what you're doing to helps those students and try to help make that transition I want to make sure that we're not trying even though it is illegal to mandate I want to make sure kind of following up here that we're not trying to coerce or twist arms that were actually true Ali will imitations were making information available we're making experts available both when a when a group for our department basis as well as an individual basis we're fortunate enough to have immunization experts UAMS available they've been going to parliament to department as well as answering emails clarifying any questions that those may have we're not coercion there's no mandate okay and and follow up yes Sir okay so I I appreciate that that answer that we're we're providing information but for students to take clinicals are or who are not vaccinated I know some people are requiring You know COVID testing once a week or are we requiring you know anything that would single out that individual you know they've got to wear a mask or as the vaccinated don't or so is there any kind of I guess singling out of the them vaccinated versus unvaccinated representative makes if if there isn't a way that we try to to help the student they may not be where they normally would be with that group of students as far as singling them out wearing a different colored masks yelling unclean when they walk in a room or anything like that no we don't do that all right I'm glad to hear that thank you thank you Mr. On on that note was I mean can you restate what you just stated there yelling and clean what you say all I'm trying my servant that was a that was support tempted to jump start well reason I'm going to you get me a perfect opportunity on that to say that I know a patient had a tumor she went to follow up at the hospital would quit some clinic and I don't even know which one it is. And she was asked by staff there she'd been vaccinated she said no my doctor told me that I can't do it because of my condition and that nurse at that location refused to touch her. And to complete anything on her. Basically doing just exactly what you stated which was meant as a little bit of a joke at you over there. And so that's happening Schaick. That's happening it's absolutely wrong and all the blackballing and all the stuff that's going on is wrong as well and I don't this you don't have to answer for this but I know you made an attempt at became an opportunity that we don't need to make to a lot of it because that's happening with some people out there in this lady just recovered she nearly died from a brain tumor I had read that happened I apologize for my that's all right but it in in again if it is why I say use not you personally but that attempt is something that we're getting inundated with these messages from people and it's really really a sad situation and we've gotten way out of control this whole deal and it is related to some of what's and what's happening here so Michelle Selinger Senator Solomon you're recognized. Yes Sir do you have any data on transmission rate between nurses and patients since we've been experiencing the pandemic. I do not but I'll I'll do my best to find some for you are you aware of any studies have done that not off the top of my head but also of will serve as regular Altman's not you necessarily but warm other hospitals are making these decisions with no statistical evidence that it prevents the disease the transmission. I understand your I just don't have the information off the top of my head and I can just follow up with you in a quick yes Sir so do I understand you write that you want to give your. Two names priority and placement in clinicals at your facility. Students that come through the program at UAMS or that is where most of their rotations okay is there You AMS facility Sir do you have a room far too far clinicals from other institutions we are we are at capacity and what is your capacity we currently have I believe it's a little more than five hundred nursing students at this point in time in clinicals. I'm not sure exactly where they all are in the in the rotations are the are you give me the numbers of sure the number of clinical positions you have open and how many of those are filled by your students and how many are filled by students of other areas I'd appreciate it I can speak to those specifically that are filled by UAMS students the one to centerfield in different locations by other students I don't know if we'll be able to get together that information but will if that's far as ones within you a mess that come from other places I would be able to provide okay all right thank you thank you Mister senator garner. They Mr Fleming financial become last question of this more for Secretary keys readily for legitimate reasons so just wanna put that out there but from paramedics who said to have this problem EMTs offer for nurses say they have this problem it seems to be a widespread understanding with schools and institutions that the clinicals or forcing this on them and that without protections that there's many people out there who feel like they will be able to complete a degree feel so happy that you came out and clarified openly that that is the case for my understanding Secretary key to said that they are following the law and that no stills will be punished you otherwise let's be clear the students and they decide to make that medical personal freedom choice themselves they should be allowed to do that and be able to complete their education underneath the law we should make last year's heroes and is this year's zeros by making them not be decree I think it's very important that we send that message loud and clear to everybody Wallace thank you for allowing me make a comment sir thank you Mr gig I will say I really do thank you for UAMS of sorry you gave me that opportunity to hit that issued get that out on the open for people because I feel badly for some of these people that are feeling true ostracism when they should not be but I do appreciate the fact that you're making those accommodations I think it's the right thing to do and I would be very open for you to reach out to the chairs of these committees and talk to us about ways that we could get some collaboration going if we've got an institution of feels they for some reason cannot do that and they're not doing that it would be it would be wise to consider how we could make and make accommodations in some way because as I say I think that this thing is change and look I expect changes to pandemic everybody's trying to figure out how to handle this but we don't need to torpedo people's careers and and their willingness to serve so thank you Mr kick for coming and. You senator thank you Mr von thank you for being here and being courageous enough to speak up and we will we will hope to follow up and as a say you CA did respond here but will have an opportunity definitely this week to talk more about this matter so thank you Mr bond thank you Sir all right if I would for your speed or lack the general pen if you would come to the table for testimony secretary key is not able to be here and I would have Mr Matt Gilmore Mr jim Hudson and Courtney trailer if they are still available just have you all come in I thank you can pull one extra seat up there I thank you just five whether maybe a whole group with the general so I may have misspoke Ellis yeah I hold off the generals got a team with him and I apologize it did see your names here so General pan thank you for coming and since you do have some others with you if you would please state your names all of you for the record and your position you represent general pan your first Sir thank you Mr chairman the option you cannot speak today my name is Major General Kendal town on the adjutant general for Arkansas to my immediate right to have Mister Scott Steiner who is the chief of staff for the Arkansas department of the military in my far right as colonel Jeff wood who is the judge advocate general for the Arkansas National Guard thank you all for being here and that will let the generals comments recognize you but when you speak your state your name again for the record general you're recognized and less you if you have some opening comments otherwise we'll let members begin to ask questions yes Sir I do and so again thank you for the opportunity to speak I've got some information here about of the organization of the Arkansas National Guard and the department of the military which is not common knowledge I think it might help shape the discussion as we go for. So the the the Department of military and the Arkansas National Guard are often used as interchangeable terms and in fact they are not the one and one in the same there to the state legally distinct entities the department of the military is a cabinet department organized under the executive branch within the department we have a hundred and twenty state employees also billions who are funded purely by state funds those folks are designed or or hard to help administer programs that apply to the Arkansas National Guard additionally we have three hundred and thirty state employees were hired through federal funds to help administer the installations that support the Arkansas National. Excuse me Arkansas National Guard to those of those will be your police or fireman had both for Chevy and a camp Robinson as well as other sports services they're almost installation. The Arkansas National Guard by comparison is composed of sixty five hundred army in nineteen hundred and fifty air guardsmen those folks are in fact federal they are paid organized trained and equipped by the federal government they are required to be administered by regulations and laws as laid out by the federal government as well as state government excuse me as well state government there are numerous of federal statutes which lay out how we administer of the National Guard all rooted in the militia called clause of the constitution then there are state there are eight specific state statute which direct the National Guard to follow federal guidelines and one which is specific to me and my role as the adjutant general verses the secretary of the department to ensure that federal guidelines for Paul. So to kind of give you some sense of just exactly how that impacts guardsmen and how that plays into the governor's role as the commander in chief of the National Guard. So when the governor decides that he needs of support for the constituents and one of your districts from the National Guard he literally has to take those guardsmen that are coming out to help out of a federal status and hire them into a state status which they will remain in that status for the duration of the mission and then we basically bar them as temporary state employees in transition back into federal status. So in the course of looking at you know how that in applies to the vaccine mandates so you're all aware that the secretary of the defense back in August they issued a mandate that all military members to be vaccinated that applies to us it is through his position as the secretary through statutes which and defined as authorities and it blows down to me to ensure that that occurs as he is directed in Sir I based on that opening statement alternative fees to. Senator garner. Thank you Mr chairman. Good day in the military and when you hurry up and wait for committee may nine it's. All right let's go through these first the National Guard they're not the vaccination deadline for them isn't until June thirtieth the twenty twenty two is that correct. So. And when I talked to National Guard so we have the Army National Guard and we have the Air National Guard each one of those components of the National Guard is governed by the rules and regulations as laid out by that department of the military so the Army National Guard is a trip you know is guided and driven by rules and regulations as established by the secretary of the army down to the the army headquarters in that particular case we've got all the way up until the thirtieth of June of next year to accomplish backs nation for the Air National Guard they're different because they fall in the department of the Air Force and the department of the airforce guidelines right now the direct that we vaccinate everybody in the Air National Guard by the second of December. Okay now within the military there are administrative and medical exemptions outline or more regulation six hundred point two zero Arkansas forty five sixty two as well a new army directive. What is the guys you give to National Guard airman who serve on the U. who want exemption even build medically or leisurely what is the process they need to do who would make that decision what is the chain of command on that. So and I'll start with the army general there somebody'd hello trouble here you should make sure collect close thank you sorry so I'll start with the already because they or the of the largest and the most complex. He's the equation for us. So we will. send out shot teams to every battalion sized unit but items generally between five hundred six seven hundred soldiers will bring all the soldiers and one location as part of that process we will have both chaplains attorneys and Doctors on site. So we have a guardsman says that he has in by ministry of exemption in the in terms the regulation is primarily a religious exemption calendar up to their work part of that presentation of battalion level B. well they mention the exemption to the soldier because I was the most time they don't understand integrity of the the intricacies of the law so would they be briefed on that initially or that something they have to request they will well let me let me break up the flow chart here in just a five minute something drop in. But they will have additionally councils the we will offer the exam or the vaccination soldier declines then we will point them in the correct direction to go to get the necessary council. I'm not sure that answers your question. Looks like we may have yes if you would state your name again for the record chess of the colonel Jeff would a general counsel Arkansas National Guard. that counseling that the soldiers gets lays out all the different categories of if you have a religious exemption it kind of points in the right direction because really there was nothing new that's been invented here we've had a different administrative exemptions if someone's getting out in sixty to ninety days the military is a process for them to request adult with a shot I'm retiring anyway religious exemption they've got a same thing with the military is a complete flowchart how that flows and then you know and and that's the that's what those are processed and basically they're somewhat put in a holding pattern while that is been being adjudicated actually goes outside the state for the religious exemptions that signed off on as outside in in big army. Okay final question Mister chairman thank you for indulging me if somebody this is a somebody in the National Guard air guard decides not to get vaccinated and they're not exemption could ultimately be discharged from military service because of that decision. So do you so the army has declined that piece of you know unitive or administrative action for the the declination asked phase two of this operation and so that is an on order which means it's out in the end it will be a date without in the future but they've been very clear and all the public statements that discharge were punitive action or both of these of all options should that be the final decision of the soldiers thank you as somebody who knows people who took to anthrax vaccination when everyone's are first offered and have serious medical conditions because of that somebody who knows that our soldiers and military who every single day go out there and try to do the right thing not allow them to make that personal choice you know you do give up certain rights when you join the military had in charge and I look at some of the charges for not wearing masks was less than honorable or general discharge without owner I think that's a terrible precedent to set and I would appreciate anything you gentleman can do to push back on that to keep as many people in Arkansas National Guard and Air guard as possible thank you Mr Georgia Mister. At representative makes thank you Mr Murray front of you first off gentleman thank you for your service as a fellow veteran I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from and I understand that you're under orders yourself so you a lot of these decisions are being made you're just when you're executing them question I have is kind of follow up there to the senator and I think you've already answered it but could you have situations where you have. Personnel that have served honorably for ten fifteen twenty years but for either philosophical or medical concerns choose not to take the vaccine it sounds like they can be put in a position where because of this one issue that they are just charged with a dishonorable discharge means that correct characterization or he said punitive action is that potential jail time fines and. Sounds like it may still be up in the air but I'm just wondering if you could. Yes yes representative budget there's a good the in the military there's good break off on what things can happen to soldiers and so for a soldier who's had a complete honorable career and let's say if they were to go to a separation board for this it would be an administrative separation board part of what that board is charged with is looking at the totality of that soldier service and they would be entitled to counsel representing their and so you know that it would not be a foregone conclusion of any type of discharge K. but uh It for them to get anything worse than a general discharge they would have to go to the board of officers the representative all that kind of stuff so there are some protections in place to look at the totality of the career now to get a a dishonorable discharge or are in a punitive discharge it would have to be prosecuted on the military judge decide for for you to fall in order and the likelihood that is probably not very good very much okay I just wanna make sure that we've got folks who who have served honorably are not going to. I'll be discharged dishonorably because of this one incident the the one follow up that I have Mister benefits yes sure is if a US soldier does receive the vaccine as we all know it's remote but there is a health risks to taking the vaccine that we've seen what would be the military's responsibility to the soldier at that point whether it's blood clots issues with a heart actually you in in some cases the same death occur talk to us about that aspect a little bit so we are taking pains to make sure that every soldier or airman is giving a shot while in a duty status and so that provides those protections I should. Medical issues arise related to the vaccine we can issue a this call the line of duty letter that then allows us to pay for hospital bills all right thank you thank you Mr right. Senator Hendren. Thank you Mr chairman thank you gentleman between the three of you there's probably several decades of service and I appreciate it is represent makes that and I've had the privilege to serve with a couple of you but I have a I appreciate your explanation beginning general pan because nothing has eliminated the misunderstanding of the National Guards and some of the comments and statements that have been made about the interaction between state law and the federal status of the National Guard and I wanted I mean I mean I think there's no question that when you're under federal status just as all the active duty troops are Little Rock Air Force base that's an entirely different situation and somebody who's a state employee correct. Yes that is exactly the the case and so no I'll I'll go back to the the mask mandate is a is a great example so we take great care to make sure that we do not violate state law so when the federal mass mandate came out for the military the mask mandate was written in such a way that relies upon location so we we do a very comprehensive scrub of where all of our guardsmen are located at to figure out whether the mass mandate applied. Guardsmen in the state of Arkansas so it applies on Little Rock Air Force Base adding airforce base in fort Chaffee which all federally owned and for which we have to enforce federal regulation camp Robinson is a state installation except for the very subtle part which is the professional education center is federal rest of the campaign is this state so you have to wear a mask on the professional education center not on the rest of camp problems and so we so between us you know the the National Guard the state employees the federal employees we have multiple statuses out there and multiple walls of late and we go to every extra extreme to make sure we follow all the permanent loss for each person exactly and so the the other thing I guess was kind of surprising to me is this shock this something to have that the military would their mandate things on their soldiers and impose on their liberties and I guess as I look my career I think it was eight in officer training school to basic training every time I went to the desert it was our whole bunch of stuff I got anthrax a dozen times as that everybody that was going and I guess this whole notion that this is somehow a novel saying that the military is going to require there was one one thing I didn't know in two thousand three I guess it was there was so some litigation about the anthrax because it had been FDA approved in the court ruled if it's FDA approved military's got the green light as they have since the time of John George Washington to do those things in order to keep their troops safe is that accurate that is a true statement I mean George Washington does you most of you probably know require the smallpox vaccine and in the midst of the revolutionary war and we require vaccines Eversense and so with that in mind you it's it's above and beyond just a. A requirement just be draconian for us as a matter of readiness and I'll go back to the thirty not the brigade's joint readiness training center rotation which I'm sure many of you got a phone calls and letters from your constituents about concerns over of folks being exposed to the covered vaccine down there so in the course of that rotation was a three a three week long event it is the very closest thing going to combat brigade can get to actual combat short of actual bullets flying in your direction during the course of that rotation we had forty five hundred and sixty one soldiers down there only a five point four percent became infected by the virus which is way lower than what was going on in the state here at that time other testing by UAMS but every time one of those folks got tested positive it shut down scads of folks around them and so I would as a I went down there and visited with unit during the course of their training one of the sergeants major there came up said you know we could do a much better job of fighting the enemy if I could just get all of my soldiers in one place at one time because in any given time about half of the record date due to the virus right now I think that's important for people to notice the steps are being taken many times whether it be physical fitness test or whether it be a requirement that we had as aviators to take go bills and find out we adverse reactions because we would be using them and and missions all of those things are not done arbitrary they're done for the safety of the force and reading is correct absolutely and the last one I make a Mr and I appreciate this but I've spent a few years with these guys and I and I and it's important to me but you know we just had an announcmenet about a in economic development an incredible opportunity for the Arkansas National Guard in Fort Smith with F. thirty fives up to a billion dollars in economic development hundreds of jobs at an incredible victory for the. Date of Arkansans and it's competitive as we know with other states on issues like that and I recall a couple years ago when the Secretary of the Air Force came and one of the comments that we had with her was what can Arkansas due to be more welcoming to the military to make this a place where they want to put missions like the F. thirty five and because of that we change the law in Arkansas with regard to the occupational licensing because she said that was one of the biggest impediments to them bringing their trips to the states was states that were friendly with regard to rest reciprocity on licensure because their spouses come here and make their licensed in another state and we changed the law to try to be a welcoming state to the military and I guess when I look at some of the attempted legislative intervention into the military department it gives me real concern that projects like the F. thirty five and maybe even the F. thirty five could be pulled states that are not trying to interject themselves into you're also efforts to keep your troops safe so with the F. thirty five being a specific example so the initial decision for basing has been made the final decision for basing is still about a year and a half away and so as they look at we're that organization will eventually land if we were to say nobody in the military can be vaccinated. I mean I saw a that that's going to put the department in a position to have to come back and do some very heavy negotiation with this with this body but it's also going to give us probably a pause to the decision makers as whether Arkansas is the place that mission is to go thank you Sir all right. I've got to the. Thank you ninety two representive Richmond thank you just one away at sorry about that put your number back there sure there you go represent Richmond. Thank you Mr chair to Joan was certainly appreciate your service appreciate you taking the time to come here today I know it's been a long day for you just I'd like to revisit the punitive in administrative action that might be taken towards the service member that refuses when we talk about punitive are we talking you know like I don't know what I forget what you got article fifteen at each non judicial punishment for us in J. P. that article fifteen for the most part would be limited to something like that. Possibly a little break time lose your rainy maybe get fined or something worse have you received any guidance from the federal side of it to increase that yes we well we the general appearance cited adopt the a federal model what they did is they they with drew all of forty to issue administrative and punitive a you know negative actions against soldiers up to the O. six level six commanders and a GOP don't have six commander in the way this is phased there's a phase one phase two there's absolutely no negative adverse ministry of actions going take place in phase one phase one is about education and and and getting to see to the point of what problem we what we really are facing towards you know as is for the number sold we had that that just basically are saying it's a lawful order I'm not going to do it you know in in process those on the backside okay thank you for that Mr follow yes Sir going back to the discharges Force classification honorable less than honorable guidance that you been provided on that as well. Yes and and that's the same then again that would have to go to to get anything below a general in a in a general discharge you're gonna get basically everything you get under honorable discharge but there's a few education things that that the whoever's giving that actually looks at so basically there's not much difference between an honorable in general but it's when you get to that T. H. that you start losing losing some benefits and then that kind of goes to the characterization of what you've got that's where you have to have a in order for someone to get an O. T. H. for failure to obey an order other look at the totality that soldier's career you know there to look at the instance did they do it probably respectful or disrespectful and how they you know they approached it in so it's really gonna be a whole board is going to look at that and again they're gonna have the right to counsel you know military attorney there to represent them in they're gonna be you know all three officers that bore the ultimately going to make the recommendation to the tag and that board literally only makes a recommendation so even if that board made the recommendation for anti age it still comes the tag he also has to either agree or he could always go lower than that so there's there's plenty protections there to make sure you know we don't end up going overboard on a soldier whose otherwise had a audible career and on themselves honorably you know throughout this process and got to the backside of. Thank you jim I appreciate the fact that you're trying to walk a very fine line here between state and federal and that the our mission accomplishment unit readiness and safety of those people are your first concern thank you. General Berrier representative very thank thanks to the chair and thank you to my my successor and on recognized general Penzo combat leadership Leding three thousand our our Kansans of soldiers in Iraq as well as the two gentleman sitting to his right so I appreciate your contribution to the our state and nation but general pen right now you know this a national security issue and my mom in protecting the soldiers and airman maybe call to deploy to any part of the world at any given time as a matter of fact right now currently off the top of my head you have soldiers and airmen United Arab Emirates you have them in in Kuwait you have them and Qatar you have them on the southern border that's dealing with migrants and all those soldiers and airmen have the potential to contract deadly diseases and coming from a guy that you know I had eight anthrax shots myself to join Senator Hendren and the center of. garner down there but it was for not only my protection but the protection of the other soldiers and airman that I lived in with the in a congregate setting so I think it's a it's very important that the this committee nobody I understand the reasons why we mandate vaccinations and is for the safety and security of the people of this country as well as the soldiers and airmen that are providing for our national security so I appreciate you being here and thank you approved keep up the good job. Do you have a question. Our and are you having a good time. This is the best job thank you. All right got a couple questions are gonna be additional questions from couple members have you had reports within the Arkansas National Guard of anybody that is come to you the chat scientific from vaccine. Sir I have not not not or any you had zero zero K. and L. let me let me back up yeah. I think in the vaccine immediately after the vaccine I had the the normal achy joints and you know fever except for some of the same kind of side effects I would have remote pollution but debilitating side effects nine okay are there any reports coming to you that that has happened in any other area in the country with our military that anybody's reported side effects. I'm not aware of any if you have that information would you provided to us yes Sir okay and the other thing is that you know I've said here in two three times pulled up some of the communications from the soldiers that contacted me. These are people that serve honorably they love their jobs in the military they want to continue serving and they've taken numerous vaccines I I guess for purposes restating it since everybody's talking about the vaccine record in here I had the yellow fever vaccine hip a vaccine have B. vaccine I've had everything you could take for tropical medicine going to Ghana West Africa going freely mall will but I knew I was going into hot so and so what I my point is on that general is that the issue is is that you have. Military members that are contacting us because they're reading. They're saying what's going on and they're raising objections. And outside of of your your command. You want people to be okay. Period end I'd say inside your command outside your committee I want people to be all right I don't want anybody to be hurt and so I think that what gets lost sometimes in this discussion is the fact that you have people that are reporting actually problems. And those are issues so I want to ask this to make sure I'm clear as you talked about honorable discharge or general discharge or dishonorable discharge any affect whatsoever to their benefits. Not at all as far as medical into if if there was a if there's a huge injury because it during a federal status there's a federal tort claims act which I didn't think we covered so if there was a you know a a death or anything like that or to buy the the event like that there is a military process for them to file a claim for that as well okay Senator Garner and then I have Senator Clark following. Thank you of you mentioned earlier that you had two hundred twenty believe full time guards bins that are paid by the state of Arkansas they would be excluded from the vaccine requirement when day and any other Arkansas based employees so to be clear those were not guardsmen those are state employees just as you will find here in the alarm thing okay I thought somebody G. or or now okay those those are all everybody working in the Arkansas department of the military our state funded state employees and they're all included work they are they are not required to take the shot thank you. Senator Clark. Thank you Mr of appreciate some clarifications made here today of there's a lot of things that. We can't know we can't know everything. Of. I had National Guard soldiers contact me that instead of December second all of a sudden this last week they were told at seven days get the vaccine can you tell me what that's about. Aye Sir I'm not I'm not aware of that timeline. Time of. The okay I'm not sure where they got that information. Hello anything about the no. Because that was very concerning to them before they thought they had you can understand the and and so to to clarify for their guard specifically so that the intent is for them to have ever all our guardsmen to have their first shot by the end of October. Right but this budget that they had to have the first shot immediately I'm not sure we're immediately came from. okay The they were also of told and not unusual from some of of those outside the military the religious exemption was unlikely that they were almost for sure not going to be granted that. So I don't think anybody short of for the air guardsmen it is the director of the Air National Guard who adjudicates the exemption so I don't think until the. Request the exemption request is processed anyone can speculate as to whether it will be approved or not the only thing I could tell the guardsmen concerned is if they think they've got a valid religious request submitted. The and I appreciate the soldiers former soldiers of bringing up of. The importance of safety of and battle readiness the the and of course facts are always important of it has come out the those who had COVID or safer than those who had the vaccine but that's not anywhere in the orders as it. No senator I don't recall reading that okay so under any sports. So so that really so that part of the safety has really is what is left out it doesn't matter whether you're safe or not. So senator I would I would offer this. So how many driven by trade I'm not a doctor. But I've got a doctor that works for me he's my state surgeon this state surgeon was the same person that in on that fateful day in March of two thousand fourteen was the brigade surgeon for the thirty ninth after brigade Tarja rock when Rock it started coming in and for Arkansas guardsmen lost of lives and numerous other guardsmen were seriously injured. That's surgeon charge out in fire and started treating folks to make sure that they were taking care of and if at all possible State. That's surgeon tells me that this vaccine is the best option that guardsmen have not to get sick and if they get sick get sick at some minimal up. So I when he tells me that I trust him I don't trust anything else I read I asked my medical profession. And I would turn back you. So let me get this straight. Because I very much appreciate his service and his bravery. I'm trying to figure out how that translates into his medical expertise. He is a graduate of a medical school has in the actor's name and beyond that I would be hesitant to no more down in terms of disqualification so you don't know if you've read any of the the studies in the last two or three weeks that have come out like the one out of Israel one seven hundred thousand people you let me finish their of. That says that those who have had COVID or twenty seven times safer than those who had the vaccine and of. That backs of thirteen other studies the hard headedness but that doesn't matter. Brings me to my next question. And I'm really interested in your answer. House candidly affecting morale if you know. Senator I will tell you that the Arkansas is a community based wars and if you look out there generally the people in every armor have the same general outlook on vaccines as the population at large. And the. So how should I take that answer how's that affecting morale. Senator I don't know that it does any worse than it did before. Before we had this meeting and I was a man who's asked in his job. to make projections on a regular basis how many soldiers are likely to be lost in state of Arkansas. Senator at this point I can speculate. Thank you. All right Senator Ballinger. Thank you Mr appreciate the gentleman coming and I'm I know that. If you guys have a job besides for coming answer to us but I appreciate you being here to answer to us if somebody takes the the vaccine and they do have medical condition to the rest being discharged at all by reporting that to you. No but I mean. And your answer is no you know it beyond that of the of these highly speculative to guess what condition they might have or might not have but such short answer is no so it in and less of the condition like I can imagine there would be some rest give if the condition is there they got a paralyzed leg like I know of general at the children's hospital who who that was a condition but something like that that obviously make them not medically fit and let's say for the sake of conversation that he did have that person did have a paralyzed leg which was linked back to the vaccine they would be given a line of duty in the letter which allow them to get a medical treatment and we will evaluate of that person's thanks for further service at the appropriate time what if an individual went forward to the media if they had a medical condition with the destruction of that. It. Generally no I mean there Monday through Friday they are private citizens just like. In all of the the judge after going to more detail but generally the profits as set out I just have one follow up comment with them being in a duty status with the line of duty we have to do a legal review on those it is deemed to be line a line of duty so as to facto is in line of duty unless there's evidence you know more than a preponderance that unit was do their own negligence on the Glaxo here if you have a soldier who took the vaccine because he was ordered to take it in and had a side effect or medical condition you know unequivocally that's gonna be found in line of duty and they're gonna be entitled all the benefits you know they're entitled to and and for some reason they're not able to serve anymore with that line of duty they're gonna get a disability you know that the government's going to take care of them you know for that but instead of to just for clarification so if if a if a soldier came forward and said. Either talk to one of us to talk to me or whatever and said I was forced to take the vaccine and these are my long term side effects or or these are the side effects I I I I faced although he doesn't have to worry about her she doesn't have to worry about being discharged no it and for any of these kinds of concerns I mean we have a point of contact on camp Robinson who is specifically charged with taking your concerns and your issues and running around to get you an answer and so we would ask that if you have that concern reach out thank you. All right. Senator Hendren. And they just run everyone we've got I am going to quickly get the other three appear for one question and we hope to see here in the next fifteen minutes thank you Mr chairman again jim I appreciate you eliminating a lot of things that I think there's a lot of darkness on about that the military culture with regard to morale. again haven't gotten vaccinations over and over again I think compared to the challenges that national guardsmen face every day you probably all know people who have been mobilized and missed the birth of a child. You probably all know people who've been overseas and not come back with everybody that they left with. And I guess when I when I see people worried about the morale because they're being told to take maybe their forty eighth shot that they've had in their military career I think it just shows the misunderstanding of the military culture now they're gonna be some people who are going to you know get upset for sure but as far as the unit cohesion would you agree that that there's a lot other issues that have been far more strain on military families in this. Right absolutely agree. The The and the questions about medical coverage if there's complications from the vaccine. You know I've had insurance from my company from the state from other place is there a better place if you're gonna have a medical complication on active duty military service. Senator address I couldn't point out to you I mean they're gonna take care of absolutely everything at zero cost if it's a line of duty related incident correct and I have an entire bureaucracy to help them do the paperwork understand what needs to be done what needs to be done next and make sure that they're taken care of right and again I think another important point to make is because I know I know that with regard to the question on contacting the media I mean I'll tell you that I've had my son who's active duty now reach out to me because he said some political people reach out to him and try to get him to and of course there's a dentist or an active duty National Guard senator additional guardsmen AG are and we all understand those things but I I do think it's probably important say well they are soldiers Monday to Friday there are some ramifications career rights for people who do things that undermine. unit cohesion in command control that's a fair statement okay thank you. All right well general all of you Kerr would appreciate you for being here and your staff we do appreciate your service and I don't in the situation that you find yourself in with this because it is a mess and it's got got a lot of folks are reaching out to us these are people that want to have their voices heard but we understand there's a big difference between your federal orders and what a lot of the country is stating on this issue and I just wish that the the whole situation had not been over politicized because the end of the day many of us have experienced covid many of us lost family members with COVID we know it's a serious issue we also rather serious issues with the the protocols that have been in place so with that we thank you for coming the members that had questions for you create you for doing your best to answer those and and also appreciate every day that you put it on the line for our state and also for the country thank you general so thank you all right. for would have the Mr Gilmore quickly and Mr Hudson and Courtney trailer. And this will be very quick there's probably going to be ample opportunities for you in the next four days here in our state for questions but As it relates today with the with the vaccine mandates we're hearing our cries from people all over the state people that are in a position where they're being told that they're gonna have pink slips coming to them if they don't get this I just got a call today from a very large related to a large corporation in my own district because they have federal business that they're going to be forced to do the mandate as well so given all of that wanted to have you come in if you just quickly state your name and who your for the record but want to talk a little bit about unemployment and some of those issues so if you would please state your names yes Sir Mr chairman jim Hudson department commerce. Cordy. That's it you're hot go ahead is there you go leave it up there is a trailer deputy director department of workforce services thank you yeah just leave your Max all be fine I think. Matt Gilmore department health thank you Matt. I just state the question of the big question is if someone is fired or I love the way some people are saying if they just used to resign since they will do this condition of employment that's being put on them all of a sudden are they going to be allowed to file for unemployment benefits and will they be covered in the state of Arkansas at I'll take the questions Senator Rapert and Lemme can draw a little bit distinction between a situation where an employer private employer is putting a mandating place versus the federal mandate and the days are still early on the federal mandate and we have only seen that specific language yet we haven't seen the the OSHA standard that's going to be coming out so I don't think we can always speak definitively on that going back to the private employer scenario you know it's it's ground we've already had to cover in the past and so there is a mechanism in the unemployment law for everyone to assert a religious exemption for a reason not to receive the mandate and if that you know individual of money either resigns because of that are there involuntarily terminated then when they go to file their unemployment claim they can you explain why they did not follow the policy or when they resign and then that will go through an education process and that exception for vaccines when somebody has a sincerely held religious belief has already been adjudicated you know at the court of appeals level and it's a recognized exemption so they would just need to as a father claim explain that basis and an account let the claim go through the claims process. Okay I will Dallin in here just a little bit. Okay so and I know you E. everybody's going to be different you got people's committee claims person says I'm not taking this list just to use well I'll use my own district we've had a hospital there the stated that if you don't get the vaccine by such and such date did you be let go. Okay. What what about that person what about that nurse or that doctor frankly our doctors and nurses that are just as adamant on not taking the vaccine so if they come in file for unemployment and they've been let go are they going to be able to file for unemployment and expect that they would have a claim that would be upheld and be able to draw unemployment the state of Arkansas yeah Mister chairman it's a facts and circumstances test so one anybody can file an unemployment claim I think we've had some folks person concerned in the in the previous months that they've been told they can't file a claim well they actually can file a claim and they just report their reasons for the separation the employer reports there are reasons for the separation and then we're just kind of a neutral fact finder we have to compare the two stories and then we have to go look at the relevant law and make a determination can they receive unemployment coming out received on I can give you an across the board answer on okay and I'm it quick because I've I got to be somewhere to understand that we you stay here all day so let me ask it this way that person comes of files a claim would it be fair to say from what you stated that if they have not filed for some sort of exemption. That they'll be out of luck if they had if they don't fit the religious exemption or a medical exemption let's say I just don't agree with the policy you know our obligation is to apply the law and the law does not afford an exemption for that you have to be if it's a religious exemption or medical exemptions for vaccines okay so if somebody that happens once this or reporter here reports on it and if the person is let go or fired or whatever determination status is because anymore take a vaccine you're stating here that if they did not seek a medical or a religious exemption. That they would likely not be able to receive unemployment benefits Mr chairman unless the court of appeals makes new law and and they can do that from time to time but unless they do under the current sale law they would they would not get unemployment benefits okay so the answered my question is yes. Okay they would not get okay would not get it all right all right any any further comments on that. All right I'll defer to Mister Hudson he's the expert on occupational all right and and I've got them will go ahead get these questions here Senator Ballenger and then representative Gonzales. Thank you Mr so it M. I guess the first question is that if they have requested a religious exemption then how do you determine the legitimacy of that religious exemption. Yes so you look at the case law we have to look at the case law with this as well with the court of appeals has said is it first there they want to see an interactive process between the employee and the company where they sought the exemption explain the reason for the exemption but if what your question is getting at is is there some looking behind the on the theology or you know whether or not this is something we agree with that's not what it's about it really is do you believe this that's the test that's how courts look at do you really have this is a sincerely held religious belief and and how do you determine that it's again facts and circumstances I think we just wanna see some information about how long they've had it how it you know how they carry that believe about begin is it sincere verses there may be evidence that it's not sincere is just artificially constructed is that something we've done previously were I mean that's what so what I'm what I'm seeing out here is historically and most good good labor attorneys will tell people you don't start looking into it if they if they ask for an exemption what you do is you you decide whether you can make the accommodation or not and you do it if you can make the combination you do it you don't start digging in the reason is you open yourself up for liability if you do I would assume that the but you know our employment offices been doing that same thing where we don't do much digging because where you know when you do that someone you're going to be wrong are we gonna start digging and start looking for legitimacy when previously we have no Senator Ballinger there is a well developed body of case law on this both of title seven and with unemployment low we look to the case law for that it's it's not a very very high hurdle okay in in the other question I have a so one of the employers what they're doing is they're saying I'll see that you've applied for religious exemption. We're going to we are going to grant your religious exemption and we are going to accommodate you our combination is one year paid without or when you leave without pay and at some point maybe in the future you can apply for your job get. What those people be eligible for unemployment. And what we may be talking about thousands of people so like that answer we need to know the answer to yeah again I think it's a facts and circumstances test I I am hesitant to give anybody a definitive answer on the front end before they file their claim we we need to look at the policy we would need to look at the request and then apply the case law to okay so but in the in the case of where where they're not they're not officially terminating anybody they're saying it in there well also that case law would say they're terminating on is what case law would say but what they're saying is that they're giving them a one year leave without pay. Are you saying you at this point we don't know whether we would we've that would be eligible you know all the other facts and circumstances the same the differences is you're fired or no you've got one year leave without pay is that you're saying you don't know the answer as far as that goes what I'm saying is that is a facts and circumstances test I'd want to see the claim I will see with the employee saying what the employer saying and then we did you take possession. So give give me a scenario in that case where the facts would would say that there is no you know just hypothetically where there is no they don't qualify for an employment. So what would be the factors that we're is that what they've done is you know Joe Smith says I've got this deeply held religious beliefs and and so therefore I can't take the the vaccination he said they said okay we we get your Dick people religious beliefs what I'm questioning that we're going to accommodate you you have a one year leave without pay what what other factors would would come into the question to say you don't qualify for unemployment but the two things are always gonna look at the scenario you're kind of describing is you know did somebody leave without quote good calls or get somebody failed to follow employer's policy without good reason most things we look at as is so in that case the once again what we go back to the the deep level judgment deeply held religious convictions and you're going to you're going to question whether a person believes get all that if they do but what the the employer says we're commentating you we're giving you one year paid without leave R. one year without pay. Tell me the facts when that person is not going to qualify for unemployment again it would depend upon what the claim actually said but I would soon there somebody's pay was cut a hundred percent then they would claim they resigned for good reason. And we would look at that. Okay so so you would at that point you would not see if a person was in they would essentially have to quit before you would they be eligible well I think a claim is going to come to is probably one of two ways either they quit or they were terminate. Well let me say this I want to say they were terminated but this is about to happen like this isn't this is not just a hypothetical this is what's happening over and over and over again with one of the biggest boards the one that is going to have the most impact and so when this happens they're going to come to you you know because the fact that they're relying on these payments to to be able to pay their car payments to be able to pay the house payment they're gonna come to you right away they're told that they have the what they get is one year leave without pay so they're gonna come to you. And all they have is one yearly without their own leads right without pay so what are you gonna do you gonna say no we're not even hear your claim because you you have a you're still technically employed now as I said before everyone can file a claim okay there is no part of filing a claim but I think we've been kind of commit this a lot of different ways I think the answer still the same which is I want to see the claim I will see what the employees alleging or see what the employers responses the will plow the relevant law to. Okay so are you saying relevant law does provide for an opportunity to pay unemployment even if a person is in a one year leave without pay. There is case law says a someone has had their their pay cut they may give them a reason to file for unemployment in courts civil order implement okay all right so that that's essentially what I want to make I wanna make sure that that when these people are faced with this that that that that mechanism that it won't be the state of Arkansas say known you know we're not going to give you even that small amount of of ability to mitigate what the the pain that were causing here yet that the Arkansas court of appeals you know regularly reports is decisions Arkansas code annotated on unemployment claims so that's public reported to the billable to everybody I would encourage people have questions about the circumstances of receiving unemployment to talk to a competent attorney if you can't do that for whatever reason you can go look at Arkansas Code it's right there it lays it out. All right of got Senator Solomon and I think that'll be it. Thank you Mr because the Department health going to change the school guidance based upon the new CDC guidance that's come out. Senator I'm not what guidance you talking about with the six foot three foot the guidance and others the last assault on the three foot six but is not a definition of close contact the definition of space and students are in school okay thank you thank you Mr all right in on that Matt one last thing on that obviously the of all of the. Military even now state police people are reaching out concerned about the federal funds and he coming in there all of these issues were the greatest constituencies are the nurses and doctors that we're hearing from you heard some effect with this nursing students here today is there been any communication whatsoever with with the department of health on what the Department of Health may or may not do or has the ability to help with related to the fact that you have people that I'm already hearing from them they're already gone. They've already left so we say that we've got we've had went through appear we've had staffing shortages. What plans do you have in places Arkansas department of health if you and your another spike again. On what you're going to do to ensure that people are able to be taken care of since of these hospitals are firing perfectly qualified nurses and doctors because they choose not to be a part of the experiment use remains a part of the control group to count to actually quote one of the doctors. So as Dr Maryland Douglas in the past that they have not you know we may advocate for mandating the vaccine. we this body here is given out funds appropriated funds to help you know. Ensure their staff in this but in the case of a spike so I think we'll continue to look at that I think cases are going down that may change about think we as you know this is rapidly changing situation I think there's still some funding out there that was given these hospitals to help with staffing with nursing things like that so you know it is far as a a rule that we have on anything occupational you know the the the the the industry of nurses and medical professionals we regulate we don't have control over you know Hey nursing industry you can't put that rule or that so that law on that end on that group so I think it's more of a business decision I think it's not something that we can you know we're limited in our authority on to regulate that so I don't know if that answers your questions on well it is question that obviously what what I want to predict just when this all begins to happen and when some of the things that to Senator Ballinger it will all be back in here with wondering what we're going to do. You're gonna have even bigger back ups and unemployment than you've ever had and here we were going to be we're going to have all these folks is going to be upset and so I'm just telling you I'm I'm just urging all of you to do what you can be thinking about it and maybe be proactive and ask some of them because if we're going to experience what it seems the volume that we're hearing and I'm imagine on Wednesday you're going to see a volume in the state that you have seen a long time and so I I just really urge everybody I feel sorry for all of us to be honest with you as I close the comments here today is that we seems like every time you get things about figured out there's a big change you're all in here again and I feel sorry for the for the the constituents here in our state as citizens around the country because it's a constantly moving target this put people in grade of people I believe now they're going to the point where they're going to cause a real danger situation because people are backed in a corner they're now threatening them with their livelihoods and the ability to take care of their families and god help anybody that is made decisions that pushes somebody into a corner like that in the negative about counts I really fear for that for the communities I wish that everybody would take a pause in would use common sense as it relates to all these issues because it's very unfair what's happened in our country with that I don't think there's anything else we've gone four and a half hours nearly straight thank you all for your participation thank you for coming please reach out to us if you've got something actionable that we could do because I doubt that we get out this week without the the situation coming to a head in our session thank you with that we're Jr thank you Mr chairman or.