Legislative Joint Auditing

We're going to call this a meeting to order. Our first order of business is the adoption of minutes of the June third two thousand twenty two meeting is there any questions or comment on those minutes. All right with no objection we're gonna consider those adopted thank you. Our next up is the doctor reports of executive standing committees of the executive committee will be a first and I will read that report. The executive committee met Thursday August eighteenth two thousand twenty two staff reported to the committee the audit special investigative and shortage report scheduled to be presented to the standing committees and to the full legislative joint auditing committee this month in New business there were no objections to requests for staff to conduct the financial audit of the city of seal. In other business the committee approved a request for staff to conduct the final financial audits of the city of Lake Village with no additional business to discuss the meeting was adjourned the next meeting of the committee is scheduled for Thursday September eight two thousand twenty two and I moved for adoption this report. May I have a second. We have a second any questions or comments before we go. All right all those in favor of adopting that reports say aye All opposed no thank you that'll send it up to next up is the report on standing committee on counties municipalities are Senator Garner you're recognized. Everio the Committee adopt the minutes of the June second two thousand twenty two meeting the committee discussed the city of Cotton Plant and they're non compliance with municipal council will see was first notified of the records were and substitute substitute noncompliance permissible county law in January of twenty twenty two per Arkansas code annotated fourteen fifty nine seventeen the last one if the city remains in noncompliance after a hundred twenty days Legislative Joint Arlene Committee may modify notified the city that the state treasurer will continue noncompliance per Arkansas code annotated fourteen fifty nine seventeen D. dash two upon this notification the treasure of the State shall withhold all turned back into Arkansas legislative audit has determined that the records or step to ensure compliance with the municipal council will the Senate Committee on counties municipalities recommended to the Legislative Joint auditing committee that the provisions of the Arkansas Code section fourteen fifty nine seventeen one seventeen continue for the city of Cotton Plant and the standing committee also recommended and state treasurer be notified of the town status regarding the municipal council law the Committee review nine reports to fort differed from June second twenty twenty two meeting an official from one entity probe was present to address to repeat findings from this report three previously deferred reports were filed in six for deferred to September eighth two thousand twenty two meaning. The Committee reviewed one hundred ninety four current reports of these reports one investigation report and one other reporter certify to the government bond governmental bond and nine were others were referred to the prosecuting attorney's officials from five entities were present to address repeat findings in their current reports committee five one hundred eighty nine current portion to for five so that officials could attend the September eighth two thousand twenty two meeting to address for people findings and to answer questions Mister chairman I move for adoption of this report thank you senator I have a second on the motion we have a second is there any questions or comments. Seeing none all those in favor of adoption say aye. All opposed no thank you the standard opted. next will be the report from standing committee on educational institutions representative very. Thank you Mr chairman. The standing committee on Education institutions met yesterday August eighteenth two thousand twenty two the committee reviewed a total of thirty five audit reports which consist of twenty four school this. School district report for educational cooperative reports six higher education reports and one enrollment charter school report for the year in June thirty of twenty twenty one representatives from national park college were present and answer questions from the committee the audit report for national park college we're sure to the app will prosecuting attorney. The Committee file thirty five current reports that were brought before it and at this time Mister chairman moved for adoption of this report thank you representative I have a second. I have a second is any question or comment on that report. All right seeing none all those in favor of adoption say aye All opposed no thank you understand about. next will be the report from the standing committee on state agencies Senator Pitsch you're recognized thank you Mr chairman of standing committee on state agencies report six reports on the committee's agenda yesterday One current report which for the department of education contained a finding related to old equipment various agency staff members were present to report on how the into agency intends to address the audit finding and to answer committee questions during the meeting the committee adopted a motion to file the six current reports moved to adopt this report thank you senator I have a second on the motion. One second is there any question comment on that report. All right seeing none all those in favor of the option say aye. All opposed no thank you that was sent out next owner of the agenda will be a special report follow up for review of implementation of the two percent salary increase for state employees for the period February sixth two thousand twenty two through June thirtieth two thousand twenty two Mr covr you're recognized this report. Thank you Mr chairman this report is issued as an update to the special report reviewing implementation of a two percent salary increase for state employees which audit presented to this committee on may thirteenth of this year. In response to an announcmenet by the governor eighteen percent salary increase was added to the base hourly rate for over twenty two thousand employees of agencies subject to the uniform classification and compensation act while over twelve hundred employees at or near maximum pay for their grade received a one time lump sum payment. Because the initial timing of the lump sum payments conflict with Arkansas Code the office of personnel management reverse the payments in aces and recruit them the lump sum payments were scheduled to be paid during the last pay period of the fiscal year in compliance with Arkansas Code. Additionally over thirteen hundred employees of ten agencies not subject to the compensation act receive the two percent increase to their base hourly rate while ninety received a lump sum payment. Aid agencies were scheduled to disperse a one time lump sum payment during the last pay period of the fiscal year the Attorney General's office may lump sum payments and thirty five employees in February two thousand twenty two rather than the last pay period of the fiscal year as a result the may report noted that these thirty five employees would exceed their line item salary appropriation as of June thirtieth two thousand twenty two in conflict with the Arkansas constitution. In the may report audit questions whether the salary increases paid as a lump sum should be calculated as two percent of an individual's total annual compensation. Based upon the governor's authorization date of February six it appeared lump sum payments should be pro rated. Subsequent to the lease to the release of the may report the governor issued a letter to the cochairs of this committee stating his intention that employees who would receive a lump sum payment and the last pay period of the fiscal year received two percent of their total annual compensation the governor's letter as provided in appendix a. The result of audits follow up review of the recommendations made in may in in the may report are discussed on the slides that follow. The first recommendation was that all employees subject to the two percent salary adjustment receive the correct amount and that one time lump sum payments be a proportionate amount based upon the effective date authorized by the governor and dispersed on the last pay period of the fiscal year. After the governor issued the letter just discussed staff compared amounts originally paid and subsequently recouped two amounts dispersed in the last pay period of the fiscal year. All original amounts were paid with the following exceptions noted on the slide staff noted no issues with these payments. What is second second recommendation was that Arkansas game and fish commission review out applicable Arkansas Code ensure the lump sum payments made to two employees are based on a proportion of each employee's annual salary from February sixth through the end of the fiscal year in its manage rivers response to the may report game and fish said it would develop policies and procedures for processing lump sum payments in the future. Audits third recommendation was that the AG's office ensure employees are not paid above appropriated line item maximum salary amounts and only wards salary increases according to Arkansas Code. As a fiscal year end the lump sum payments to thirty five to thirty five employees of the AG's office which were calculated as a full two percent of their annual salary remained unchanged therefore these thirty five employees exceeded their line item salary appropriation as of June thirtieth two thousand and twenty two. It should be noted that as a result of this review staff will conduct additional procedures comparing line item appropriations to actual paid during the Department of during the departmental audits of the AG's office for the fiscal year twenty one and twenty two. Mr share this concludes my present Tatian representatives from OPM and the AG's office are present to answer committee questions thank you Mr covr. Committee do we have any of. Yeah looks like we have of questions Senator Garner is there somebody in particular. I imagine B. the AG's office maybe staff so record go ahead yes Sir. It does represent from the AG's office. Okay we don't have anybody from the ages officer today so go ahead with your question for staff. Sure it's on the recommend Dacian three it appears to me that we set on line item on what a salary can be and. That according to legislative audit this law some a two percent exceeded the authority that the legislator allow for these designated positions out of compliance with Arkansas law in our tortillas of Legislative. It is is that kind of a good summation of what is going on in as of through this report the Attorney General office has not changed recoup that money in excess of our line item budget if you have a good understanding of that yes Sir I think it's current. Just this interesting note that this is a delegated power to legislative body and our own audits are saying that they're out of compliance with that and there has been no change in appears be nobody to discuss this issue with us today just wanna put it up on the record. Thank you senator All represented Meeks. Thank you Mr to follow on that what is the Way to go about getting that corrected is that something where the G. needs come before us request appropriation authority can it even be corrected because of the. The fiscal year has ended or is that something were to come in compliance the AG's office is going to have to recruit that money from those employees so what what's the what's the fix here other than the AG's office of breaking the law. Well Sir there of. It appeared to us and under this that we of provided the AG a chance to provide us a description of their rationale for that and they said they're constitutional office but we we could not see legal authority for them to exceed these line items maximum that the of the General Assembly as appropriated for these specific positions we are in the in the We're conducting an audit on the department right now for the office of the AG there will be additional opportunities I think to address this at a at a future date because I think that there will be some additional issues there but recouping the money Mr Boeing here at the when this first meeting happen I believe that was in may and address some of those issues but they the bottom line I don't speak the AG's office said they thought they could because our constitutional office and so I mean there could be a illegal exaction suit or something like that I'm not for sure. Other than some sort of of legal tax action. I'm not sure there's a way to recoup that money all right thank you thank you Mr. Senator Hammer you're recognized thank you Mr would use qualify that clarify that the amount we're talking about is thirty seven thousand five forged signatures that the right number to be looking at on the subject. I'm sorry could you repeat that. Is the total amount of money that we're talking about for the AG issue thirty seven thousand five hundred forty six dollars. Thank you. Yes Sir okay and I'm just curious as far as. A Ford without it actually being appropriated did you look at. At where they got the money from or what line item they got it from in the budget that it would put him over or how much they've had again they were not over I think that's that's the whole point here they had the amount appropriated in total okay that's not the question the question is the individual pay for the in individual positions the legislature under article sixteen section four sets those positions they set the amount they paid more than what the General Assembly had set. Our and that is the issue they went up they they exceeded their authority to give they paid a certain individuals more money than the General Assembly said that they were due all right thank you. it's it's my understanding I was just informed that apparently the AG's office had the wrong date for the meeting of course it was changed in that they're on their way if you feel want to delay some of these questions and they should be here shortly. Of this I guess a lot of the norm but members of it's okay E. I guess without objection will move on to the next. Report that way we can now discuss this with somebody representative from the AG's office some of that all any objection to the million that move. Okay then we're gonna just gonna delay this one and move on to the special report if I could have appointed privilege Mr covr here it is is this is his last meeting with us he's retiring in fact he came back just for this meeting and so I just want to publicly say health thankful we are for him and and his service to not only audit but in the General Assembly but the state of Arkansas thank you Sir. Thank you. so we're gonna move on to the review of a special report on Arkansas fire safety US of data two thousand three report for the period of January first two thousand twenty third December thirty first two thousand twenty one this is going to be over soon I think Kevin White will be present force. Kevin if you're. The you're recognized. Thank you Mr. This report is issued in response to a request from this committee that legislative audit of an a special report issued in June two thousand and three concerning the states are safety preparedness in areas of personnel training and equipment this report also that discusses the services provided by and the needs of our departments in the state. If this review or to update the information regarding fire department funding presented in the two thousand three report. Determine the status of the various recommendations contained in the two thousand three or. Compile information concerning personnel training equipment repair this for rolling missile fire departments providing organization of fire services in Arkansas and provide a current in two thousand and three I is already for all Arkansas fire departments. What part of arms provide fire response services in three distinct areas structure fires wildland fires an automobile fires many departments also provide other services including emergency medical sponsors is building inspections for compliance with fire codes and hazmat responses is bills or contaminations are departments are categorized as either rule or municipal. Departments can be further characterized but with their staff or paid or serve on a volunteer basis should be noted that some departments have both paid and volunteer staff. Organization of our services in Arkansas is divided among a distinct boards offices and emissions which are illustrated exhibit four Page fourteen it wasn't on this light each entity serves ever function provides oversight for different areas are services as discussed on pages fourteen through twenty the report. These services include acquiring and maintaining ACT eight thirty three funding managing grant programs and equipment assistance programs administering loans and providing training to firefighters. Departments and General received only for five sources during interviews with legislative audit staff personnel at thirteen fifteen fire departments provided the tights and approximants of funding received annually as shown in exhibit two Page three. The first findings ACT eight thirty three funding calendar year twenty twenty one just under sixteen million dollars in ACT eight thirty three fourths were distributed to counties and municipalities in the state. Schedule one on pages twenty three and twenty four shows the amounts distributed by different eighteen each county in twenty twenty one so long what amounts allocated to counties in two thousand one which is the twenty year perspective. ACT eight thirty three points this first and twenty twenty one are provided by fire departments in Seattle to on pages twenty five three forty six. To be eligible for a thirty three farms our department must be certified annually by the office of our protection services a list of the nine hundred five departments is certified for twenty nineteen an eligible for ACT eight thirty three funds and twenty twenty is provided by county and if an exact. Also included in appendix eight is the number of active firefighting personnel associated with each department. ACT eight thirty three funds may only be used for authorized purchases some of which are presented in exhibit three on page five legislative changes affecting ACT eight thirty three funds since the release of the two thousand and three report or describe Page four. Second type of phone it referred to as local funding is generally a large portion of the department's budget if the department receives this funding at all as not all departments receive local funding source of local funding varies from community to community okay consist of proceeds from special sales tax is collected with property taxes designate a portion of a municipalities or counties general budget grants oppose the third type of funding available is in the federal state or private and more details for state grants are discussed on ages sixteen through eighteen of the report. The fourth type of funding is membership fees or dues. This income sources unreliable that is the inability of departments enforce the payment of the fees although some departments can include is in a property tax collection process the final type of funding also fundraising and donations fundraising can be time consuming for firefighters is financial proceeds very it is difficult to include fundraisers and annual department budgets. The next seven slides discuss the status of recommendations in time two thousand three for the same information Page seven or more. First legislative audit recommended that at the state level for assistance to be provided to departments for grant writing in a single contact established for obtaining information related to federal state and private grants. All those single contact has not been established for obtaining information regarding grants we notified various instances of state entities assisting proper departments in acquiring grant funding that the agency offers when asked about grant funding fire department personnel identified several obstacles including one. You know we're a grant opportunity into being discouraged from applying for grants to the past failures to receive them. Second legislative audit noted in the two thousand and three report that the office of our protection services is charged by law with creating the Arkansas fire protection services resources plan but had yet to do so. In this follow up report we issue the following finding. While the this of our protection services and other state agencies provide berries fire services that align with the requirements of the aforementioned plan there is no formal documented plan available for review or distribution the fire departments throughout the state of Arkansas to assist with the orderly coordination cooperation and development fire protection services as such it does not appear that the Arkansas fire protection services resources plan has been developed as envisioned by enabling legislation management response to this finding is provided on page eight of the report. Third legislative audit noted in the two thousand three report that if women most needed by departments was a providers or a ETC's the majority of departments providing information for the current report indicated that they had a sufficient number of ways including no problems obtaining them however department personnel did indicate other equipment needs including self contained breathing apparatus and personal protective equipment such as turnouts and boots in addition sufficient communications equipment and the lack of access to high speed internet or identified as a challenge for many departments. In terms of large equipment all departments expressed a general need or desire to have newer engines brush trucks and other larger equipment. See pages twelve and thirteen of the report for further discussion of the department's needs. For the two thousand three port legislative audit recommended at the Arkansas fire training academy RSU grants and other funding to construct additional training sites around the state in particular burned buildings or structure fire training. We recommend at this because access to trainings a challenge for departments. Or burn buildings have been constructed by local municipalities since two thousand and three department personnel stated that access remains a barrier to training. Specific challenges include the time and distance needed to travel to the burned buildings the difficulty in maintaining coverage the Department service area while attending a training event in finding available dates that all personnel can attend. More details and information on burn building locations is available on pages nineteen and twenty of the report. Legislative audit recommended in the two thousand three report that a state agency help smaller departments obtain used equipment from larger departments in coordinate the distribution of this equipment this recommendation was specific to swallow a small equipment such as turnouts hoses and shovels. Early. Are my personal interview this round stated that they either utilize new smaller equipment and donate all the older equipment to a neighboring fire departments or receive used equipment or margarine or funded fire departments department personnel interviewed noted no difficulty in finding another department which they could donate a used equipment. However liability is a factor causing some equipment including turnouts to be disposed of instead of being donated to smaller departments additionally what is a penalties may be prohibited by law from donating equipment directly surrounding nonprofit departments. Finally the insurance services office or ISO evaluates the signs fire insurance classifications require protection services and facilities and a community which is commonly referred to as an ISO rating rating is used by insurance companies to establish property and casualty insurance rates for buildings. At the two thousand and three report and asked requested by this committee legislative audit sought to acquire the ISO ratings for all Arkansas fire departments for the most recent period available for comparison to the ratings presented in the two thousand and three report however when this information was requested from various state agencies no source of complete information was identified. As such when legislative audit sought to acquire this information directly from ISO the request was denied and the company stated that a compilation of ISO ratings for Arkansas fire departments is a trade secret not available for publication in this report as shown in excess of an XC. There you can read the response as discussed on pages twenty one and following the timeframe that has passed since the interview departments last ISO rating range from two years thirty six. And the average age of the R. as a rating for these select Arkansas fire departments was eight point six years. Department personnel identified several hindrances to speak and I as a writing review including the time consuming nature of the process the insufficient water supply levels in the communities to improve ratings and the eye is a requirement to keep on hand certain items at the department's rarely use. It in a broader understanding of the personnel training and equipment needs of local fire departments legislative audit spoke with representatives from fifteen apartments of varying sizes in categories located throughout the state personnel challenges include a recruiting enough volunteers staff especially among younger individuals and the lack of available workers compensation benefits in certain situations. Department personnel mentioned junior firefighting programs Levin programs and incentives for volunteers as possible ways to increase personnel and volunteers these methods are further discussed on page eleven of the report. In terms of fire department personnel noted the need for moral local training difficulty getting volunteers to attend training and I need to increase training requirements additionally to receive ACT eight thirty three funding or must have a certified training officer to provide regular training to the firefighters several departments mission problems retaining a training officer and noted the certification process is time consuming I have a feeling that it is the position can be difficult. In addition to the previously mentioned equipment concerns department personnel mentioned use of out of date or expired personal protective equipment as a challenge additionally the reporting of fire incidents to a national database is generally and eligibility requirements for federal grants in the lack of high speed internet hampers the ability of some departments to report such incidents. Mister chair this concludes our presentation of the update legislative audit's our safety report issued in two thousand and three representatives from the division of emergency management as well as the Arkansas fire training academy are present to help answer committee questions thank you Mr chair all right thank you Sir. A committee or any questions or comments on this report. US senator Hammer you're recognized question thank you do you think you can get the guests that were mentioned to the table please Mister chair absolutely what our guests. Come to the table please and it's are all you'll be placed under oath before he testifies so when you come just let your microphone and remain standing please. The last March from okay thank you if you all with the please state your name employer imposition you can is gonna go in order sure H. a hearing on the cabinet secretary. Thank you Director of Arkansas the board. Thank you Sir ten eleven I am the executive director for the division of emergency management thank you Lewis circle Holcomb our service coordinator with Arkansas Division murders thank you I mean I'm the director of the Arkansas fire training can thank you Sir if you would please raise your right hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. Thank you may see that there. Senator Hammer. Thank you thank you Mr and first of all thank you all for what you do for the fire services of the state of Arkansas appreciate your service on they all have a copy of the report and if so Page eight is where I wanted to ask questions. The question on page eight is in management response the. This will be from the fire protection service office of fire protection services. So I don't know who wants to answer the questions. Red with male three if it's all right certified okay for you get a completion sure so about three fourths of the way down through the paragraph it says in addition fire districts maintain mutual aid agreements with all neighboring districts And then. Somewhere down of that statement it talks about the resource database where it is and who is the resource database that is supposed to be developed who is it that's maintaining that resource database. That would be. Through the of acting thirty three portal when we get the A. thirty three applications in every year there's a different report. One year they'll be a capability study and when you're there will be a resource study those are all entered into the far portal which is tabulated into the years I can go in and. Pull the reports and get. Numbers in. Okay and and I'm just curious I want to give you my Mr. Yeah thanks thank you so I just want to get to the verbal response because based on the audit and you know there's conflict of opinion what would y'all feel and what like audit felt based on the information that they received from their from their of a survey of the department I just like to open up to my can give you a chance respond and talk about it please. Okay I'll be glad to take on the start of went first followed your appreciate the work that Kevin why did on this audit eighty brawl some things to our attention that we were not aware of one of the things and and looking at the response agency response from two thousand three I believe it was the response at that time all regarding the same same issue was that the the Office of fires Services was basically all you know no funding for it the only finding that we have is for actually Lewis's salary. Which actually comes out of the MPG I'm sorry merge the management performance grant funding which is part of our the whole out emergency management organization so at that time the response was that there was no no finding our our resources to to do the plant while that Sir is still true today I think you I thought it was important that we point out those things that that non week office but in coordination with the fire academy the fire services board have done during that period of time so I I wouldn't say there's really a conflict other than. You know what is described as a plan is it a written plan or can it be a plan of how these resources are gone out we you also have a The Arkansas statewide mutual aid plan which insists on getting additional resources to those different agencies as far as a resource list we feel that the database list would be a more efficient way of getting that information out then a written resource less that. Very possibly could be outdated by the time that that written resource list was completed because a quick man is is continuously changing. Okay I'll write a to your question. If if you want to point to one person because there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to the fire department world if you want to point to one person one location who would be the go to person as far as developing or coordinating any kind of the plans of related to volunteer fire departments who would that person be with that be looser who would it be. Yeah I would I would I would think so yeah I think I mean that's the only reason Lewis is the only resource that we that we have been he works with the fire services board and they may be Lewis quarterly to discuss those issues training issues on fire training academy is also part of that board so they're going over training and things of that nature okay last question is two thousand three we were able to get that so scores this time we're not do any of you know why we were able to do it two thousand three but now we're not because it seems to me like that be a critical benchmark to determine any movement of the needle for all the resources all the efforts are being put in to the volunteer fire department and more that need to be put into it I mean to me that would be an indicator but if you don't have access to the information then what are we supposed to do and how we supposed to really nail. To me that's a good question because I can't get access lose could you to the Michael culture thank you. Yeah you know that's a good question because you know I don't know what happened between two thousand three and now but getting ISO information for all the departments and state. They don't give it out unless you want to pay for their publication. Are you able to buy. It is the H. R. in the agencies that provide or is it something that has to be bought just from the insurance company that I'm not aware of a I don't know that answer okay all right thank you Mr thank you. Thank you our members do have any further questions or comments representative Mayberry you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair can you help me understand and forgive me because I I don't know the specifics of ACT eight thirty three and the only reference in here says that it C. among seventy five counties using percentages established by act eight thirty three and then distributed to cities and counties by DF a upon based upon quorum court resolutions on file. There's a big difference since what some fire departments get versus others can you just help me understand what that's based on forgive me for not already knowing. The eight the thirty three funding is still. I have one percent of the tax on insurance. From the insurance board the way it is divided up. Transceiver to make this where body understands this about it up into the counties each county receives a certain percentage of this fund depending on population from since will within that county. Each department city and all of that through the quorum court retail and they decide how much of that funding that the county yes Bills two weeks department they can either do it by their own resolution with the needs of the department or they can come to agreement they do about population of the different entities. In the county okay that that kind of helps me some because I'm missing a wide range it because I thought well maybe it's divided evenly among the fire departments but that I was seeing some prior departments got more than I was thinking well maybe it's by population but then I saw that there's some counties that it is truly equal among you know I know the small it my own County I know some fire departments have really small bases and are getting the same amount that perhaps but no brainer getting which obviously are larger so I was just trying to understand each county quorum court is the one that decides how that's dispersed within the county correct okay at it further questions is that okay. Okay and then can you also help me out so on page six this makes reference to under membership fees and dues it says some departments are able to include Jews in the property tax collection process I'm interested in the terms some departments so some counties allow it to go through. You have forty taxes and some don't and why is that that. I can answer to the question of why that's just the way some of the county's work some counties do it on the county's personal property taxes the of the on water bills debts of the county level government how they want to. Award that or try to collect the dues. Would it help if it was the same in every county or is that it it would actually help the the small rule departments if the. Could be putting it on some type of property tax or you know utility bill something like that that way they're guaranteed to receive it a lot of the departments in the state you know pretty much all apartments have blues it's hard to collect the. You know by other departments with its appalling basically volunteer okay and then also I'm sorry another question. Okay it is there a cap on the amount because what I'm looking at here it looks like Altheimer forty fifty dollars but I a I personally know that there are some larger than that so can you help me understand what the ranges that we're seeing in various areas and is there of a cat. I cannot answer that I do not know how they set their duties I know some. Areas do it by. Landmass depending on how much property they had especially in rural areas. I cannot answer to how they calculate their there far to use and there is no uniformity anywhere in the State on or guidance on what that should be or how the department should look at it or consider it so it was a little bit more universal I guess. Not that I'm aware of I cannot into the but there is no cap someone told me one time there was a hundred dollar cap and that's that's not in state law anywhere okay. Okay appreciated thank you. Senator Elliot you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman Of the I. S. holes and not being able to get that report is that an organization that the fire departments departments you joined to get some kind of rating. I the ISO rating of. Is it was basically set up by the insurance companies to have a single entity to rate the fire departments to put him on a level of their. Protection basis and that's help the you get your homeowner's insurance of. It's a private organization. The fire departments if they think that they can lower their ISO rating they can call the so office and they will come in doing expects and there's a whole list of things that they have to have but no fire department does not have to. Page anything to do their ratings so do you know I I assume board to be useful to the insurance department's or insurance companies they get the results of the radio-canada's the fire department right I don't I don't receive it back it they will let me have it. I don't know how the in the insurance companies get it I don't know if they pay for the publication not I really don't know but the reality is though the insurance companies can get it and they make some determination using that information on sending otherwise forget it. And. That has some impact on how they insure I suppose the firefighters what do they do. The rating goes for the insurance company the rating goes all your. Homeowners insurance on your car rating on all of that for the people that you serve yeah yes okay I see I see so if if you can't get the information from them had you know anybody's ever requested from the insurance from the insurance companies themselves you know if you can get it from them so that you would know about the ratings for the folks that you're serving. Request if you can't get the ratings from the ISO the insurance companies to have that Hey do you know if anybody has ever requested that report from the other and the I. S. so say for example Jefferson County or whatever. Hello don't know if that is true that over. Okay thank you thanks Mr thank you senator Chesterfield you're recognized. Thanks to understanding of the exhibit five. On page nineteen. Where it says amounts to receive per county some say nine like Arkansas County. Jefferson County Scott St Francis is it because they didn't apply. Because they were an eligible to get it how does it work. Of the staff yeah these grants right here come from the forestry division do not know their process with procedures for that I'm sure if the. Did not get it well I can I can answer I don't know okay I don't. Do those grants and all all come from Forster thank you Sir may I ask to have us as they prepared this. Exhibit. Gonzales Kevin Willis consumer should be able to answer okay Senator Jeremy. I somewhat given. Okay we'll forty. there's a lot of different state agencies that provide grants to local fire departments or loans to local fire departments each one of them have their different like application requirements and and they're discussed on some of the pages before and following this. The department after that they have to be able to only have to apply usually the larger fire departments or those that are in eligible for the grants not the smaller ones usually the smaller ones that are eligible with the larger ones that aren't but it's an application process specific to each type grant program in the type of services provided some of the departments you trying to rotate the grants to the different counties based on whose apply for those grants. Okay I'm looking at the moment on at the exhibit on page nineteen. And I'm saying that Washington severe Little River. Calhoun Phillips ensure our as well as Newton Calhoun gap between seventy five two hundred thousand. Is that because they received a plethora of. Of grants from various agencies or allow them to have seventy five two hundred thousand dollars. In with Jefferson in Arkansas in St Francis et cetera not have received anything or did not apply for grant is that would that be fair to say are are do you know. That that would be fair to say as to if you want to know which to which agencies did receive that did provide that grant funding to the fire departments and under which program stated that funding you look in the report starting on page forty forty seven forty seven forty eight. amounts okay. Got you I'm there. In that we have more information as to the amounts given per county at center at center all right thank you. Yes ma'am. Thank you of thank you Kevin represented RAF recognized. Our sister again can you make a request to you. Right now. Try again. Try again. It doesn't sound like it but it's saying it is or per Mille. I'm not represented right I look a lot better. That's K. thank you Mr thank you just have a question for you you know the fire plugs that you nor strolls you know throughout the county and city and all that just wonder are all the counties. In good condition with all their fire flowchart and should what should we have more and if we should we have a grant program. Thanks to the first floor. I don't know the I'm sure the rule areas there could always be more because mostly rule parchments the water supplies you know would basically brought in on their tankers so yeah they there could always be more fire hydrants the weather there's a grant program not aware one. Follow please yes Sir well I was just looking through hearing it Mississippi Poinsett cross and St Francis and they have nothing out there whatsoever receiving from any kind of grants I don't Greers. It looks like we have for counties. Right next to one another. We're we're we're you look in Page nineteen yes yes like I said that I can answer honestly to any of those because those programs those grant programs local forestry I don't know why there was not received in those areas. But fall or winter yeah. well if they did what could that not affect the insurance costs for the people in that area if they had more fire for the. Well it's a little because that's one of the requirements of us so yes thank you. Thank you Mr. Represent Clerk are you trying to answer questions my still messed up all right you're recognized thank. Well the second. Hi thank you chairman let's go back by is so close I think most of us in this room have a lot of volunteer fire departments I wanna make sure I'm understanding correctly the insurance company says the I. S. already but they're not releasing that information to you someone we have rule fire departments this saying that they are I. I. S. O. four or nine so five where are they getting that information and how do we validate that. The insurance company does not set the guys so that's the ISO Office the record service office they're the ones that go in they have their set guidelines. That have to be met in order to get a different ISO rating more requirements to meet the lower ISO school. Right. But you can't get that information is there a public place that we can go to get that information. Not that I'm. Then the house to the I'm sorry Mr jacket Kerr okay so how's or the fire departments able to say we are an ISO rating. The did they have a certificate on the wall from their license patient yes okay that they will have a or certificate or however they will have documentation showing from their last inspection what rating they were they received okay thank you. of site representative Mayberry back Yes thank you Mr chair I'm sorry but it just popped in my head I had a recent conversation with a constituent but I just ask this out loud he had called his insurance company and asked if the lower ISO rating would give him more money in his pocket and his insurance company said that they don't pay attention to ISO ratings anymore that they only look at where a fire hydrant is located and things like that can you give me your feedback I I haven't asked any other questions from anyone else on that issue. The only feedback I can give on that is that I do know that. Innocents from personal experience some insurance companies do not recognize us ratings. How many do it how many bill I cannot answer the. Thank you I just wanted to ask more follow up on that thank you thank you would you has the table mountain in the two outside microphones off Ripley thank god help us here US thank you Senator Hammer you're recognized thank you very quick on that point about eyes so the correct me from but the fact of matter is eyes so considers that information is proprietory so the only ones that they're going to give it to is the volunteer fire department who is required not to share that information if they do if they don't that's when them and you know not so but that is that is the scope of limitation that it cannot go any further than to that volunteer fire department satchels understanding that's my understanding okay then I will go back to my original question as agencies are involved in the fire department world what systems are in place what measurables are in place and who controls that or overseas it so that if we do another audit ten years down the road we look back and say you know two thousand three to two thousand twenty two here's a good here's the bad. If we don't have a measuring stick to hold up and say we're improving how do we ever know that there are improvements that have been made. Other than what's in place now which is the I so rating which we don't have access to. Good question we say that that. Thank you are any further questions members. All right thank you thank you guys for being here today and and providing all the all the answers we appreciate your time and we will consider this a report adopted are reviewed I guess Has Mr but one made over from a I do not know the gems of the AG's office it is there anybody in the room from the attorney general's office I know that there was a mix up on dates is what it takes to me and so he was trying to run over. Senator Hammer per share I'd make a motion to hold us over until next meeting and have the AG here to answer questions okay could I get a second motion we have a second all those in favor say aye. Opposed no all right thank you we will do that and like I said I don't think the intentionally ignored or something just a mix up on that date so I appreciate that motion I will take it up at our next meeting of. The next meeting of legislative joint auditing committee will be held on September eighth and ninth two thousand twenty two is there any news. Well hold on hold on. Can we under the year of. Welcome one of the time we were just fixing the. Skip out on the. So members we're gonna we're gonna circle back and pick pick up the review. The first report of Mr bone if you wouldn't mind us stand in and that your name employer position yes Sir my name is Brian bell and I'm the chief of staff for the attorney general's office all right thank you Sir and please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes Sir all right thank you Sir of we have. Thank you for running over I'm sorry we had a mix up at thank you for your patience and I appreciated yeah of we have a question from senator garner. Thank you Mr chairman thank you for coming over I'm sorry I'm talking over Mister Hammer there so Arkansas constitution article sixteen section Forces the General Assembly shall fix the salaries and fees of all officers of the state and no greater value or salary or feet and fix a law shall be paid any officer employee or other person does your office knowledge that the General Assembly has constitutional authority to set line item salaries for positions. Senator I think we. Excuse me I'm sorry I think we acknowledge that you all have the authority to set salaries and you frankly all control the purse strings okay do you agree that a constitutional office does not have the authority or power to overcome that constitutional power vested in the General Assembly. If I'm understanding here your question correctly do we think that once budgets or set the. Constitutional offices can exceed their budget. Correct can a constitutional office Bob proxy of being a constitutional office. Overcome that ability of the General Assembly to set line item salaries for positions. I think with constitutional offices and as with any other state agency of there is a danger of running out many of them will come back to you all for an increase in budget so to answer your questions shortly the authority is with the legislative body to set budgets okay we'll go back to the appropriation for specific line Allen salaries you said in your initial statement that we have the authority I'm asking if a constitutional office. Has the ability to overcome that authority for specific line item salaried positions. Are you again I'll reiterate if if it is an issue for any constitutional state state agency on what is given. There are mechanisms for us to calm so in short my answer is that Thor delights with legislative body good so my question thank you for the pre course Sir is in this instance we have legislative audit saying that y'all exceeded the amount that we as a legislative body set in law for these salaried positions is there contention and this bodies contention through them that you have exceeded that authority and the answer we heard from our staff is that you as a constitutional office do not have to follow that guidance so my question is can you speak specifically. On a why you feel that you can overcome that line item budget and pay in excess of what this General Assembly has said will so. The. To clarify certain I think we have said that as a constitutional office we are not part of the uniformed class and compensation that. And in addition to that we have taken the position after reviewing the statute the we have followed the statute accordingly. And it is a disagreement with the auditors that I've that we stand by we stand by our statement. So you're arguing that other parts of the law. In this specific instance. Allows you to overcome what the audit body set by this legislator says. It's something we have set in stone that should be a specific number. I don't. You're saying aye uniform code whatever we we are exempt from the uniform class and compensation I explicitly yes Sir okay Mr muscle have. Thank you. any any other questions the Committee. Thanks we've been right here back in may. Of. Representative makes your. So I guess my question is the staff so this isn't a dispute over whether they're part of the uniform classification system is that correct or no. Is that the the the the finding you have is not related to that correct. We agree that they are exempt from the uniform classification compensation act we do agree on that. Our point is there is only one way that we see in law that they could have exceeded their line item salaries. Our understanding was that they were claiming not to have acted under that one way yet there is no other authority out there in law that we see for them to have done what they did if they did act under that one way they did it incorrectly they paid salaries in February when the law says they should wait until June. That's our that's our dispute as I understand. Okay so my answer my questions for the witness that is. We're evidently an agreement here with use that. They're they're the uniform classification system doesn't apply in this case however it does appear under different authority or we've sat on line item maximum that was exceeded so totally different situation than what you were talking senator garner about so where are we at with the complaint that they have that you've exceeded your Tory and then go about the right way to and I don't think there's any dispute your among the legislatures. That you paid your employees is that you exceeded your authority so again the the statute that we're talking about the misteri has referred to is subsection of the uniformed class compensation act just so we're all clear on. we think that we have active properly with the authority under our statute even on that issue one of the other things that and I I'm sorry representative I can't recall if you're here not. We an OP I and may came and testified on this and said there needs to be some clarity in the statute. After review of the statute in discussion with myself our chief deputy and for other attorneys and our office we feel like we have followed the statute. we did increase salaries we also paid bonuses bonuses and salaries are not legally the same thing. Again. We will follow the law of all offices we certainly follow the law. We see area we see an area and we are coming to you all saying this is a gray area we will work with you on fixing it however we feel like we have complied with the statute arrive at settler Lisa sounds like there's a gray area here and would request that you would babies. Session coming up here pretty quickly that you all would help offer a solution so that we don't find ourselves here again in the future thank you thank you Mr. Thank you. any other questions. Maybe. RSN nine thank you wishbone for running over thank you Mr chair created of. Yeah and and members one more quick thing we need to expunge that motion that we had just passed a. To a sea Mr vote again next next month since the made in the door before we left so of I have a motion to expunge we have a second all those in favor say aye opposed no all right thank you of the already announced the next meeting is or any new business needs to come before this committee. I see none this of. This is adjourned thank you for being here.