City, County & Local Affairs Committee- House

The first week we have a special order here first we're going to have representative eleven to comment present his bill real quick. And and then we'll. The representative your identify yourself and present your bill thank you Mr chair representative Brian Evanston District sixty eight thank you very much for your Lynsey Lowery to go first day members real quick house bill fourteen oh six sets a uniform standard which is very important part of this in the state for the use of battery charge offenses that work alongside with an alarm system to protect the business owners property. Without this standard what we find is it makes it harder for businesses to protect their property. These fences allow businesses. To help them protect against targeted theft in generally areas that are hard to protect such as real yards construction sites with heavy machinery. And most recently in a representative rather some touch you car rental lots they're often unattended late at night and with the rash that we've seen the theft of catalytic converters. This will help those businesses protect against the loss of their assets. Expenses are solar powered never connected to the existing electrical infrastructure. They adopt the most stringent safety guidelines as outlined by the international electro technical commission. Warning signs are placed as a standards have been established. Sixteen states have adopted this model contract including most recently are border states Texas Missouri Louisiana and Mississippi. You may remember that last week this this bill is on your agenda Thanks to the eagle eye of council representative David Whitaker there was one word that was in the bill that unintended recreated the vagueness in regards to the fact that these fences are not in residential areas so we took that one word out to make sure that we tighten that up so that this would not be an issue with any residential areas in your districts with that Mister I'll be glad to take questions. Any questions from committee. Entered our. I'm just curious is there a by pax mechanism so that all so all the years or gated and in typical fashion most anytime you have a restricted property like that all your first responders have access whether it's through a key code that they're given or through an actual key to get them in through that through that gate thank you thank you Mr. Any other committee members. Not anybody from the audience would like to speak for. If not representive eleven like to close the deal thank you Mr chairman I'm close now to create a good vote. Dalby. Johnson do pass. Discussion on the motion. Indiscretion okay thank you Mr I just want to just take the opportunity to thanks representative Evans for being amenable to a simple change that leaves a lot of concerns the planning community and and thank you Sir I'll be voting yes thank you Sir. Anyone else. When the motion. We have a we have a do pass motion. Six. All in favor of passing this bill say aye. All opposed. Have it did you pass your bill thank you committee thank you Mr also real quick. We're going to ask a representive Underwood comp he has an amendment which shouldn't take just a second to run that amendment and. To thirty minutes. We have a motion to do pass all in favor say aye. All. Kevin are you ready. Your. We haven't amendments to pass out their passion about now and will. We'll take up the amendment first. Representative Cavenaugh identify yourself and present your and. Thank you Mr chair Fran Cavenaugh district thirty. The Amendment that you're going to be looking at actually just does two things for us on the original bill it takes the notices and it actually phases of them in over five years and then it takes the website to be a third party website not a dot gov website that's what the amendment does. And I'd be glad take any questions on the amendment. Yeah what the what is second part of this man. Okay I heard you say that is going to be the. Phased in over five year period but what was the second part remember that it takes the website to be from a dot gov to one centralized website ran by third party thank you. Question committee on the amendment. And on what are you facing and can you explain that phase and yes if you look on section twenty you'll see the first year and one one twenty twenty four there will be the city's and county's financial statements and budgets and twenty twenty five will be city and county ordinances and you'll find that sections fifteen sixteen eighteen and twenty five. twenty twenty six will be delinquent personal taxes and that is done and section twenty two and twenty twenty seven is delinquent real estate and certifications in that section twenty three and twenty four and the last thing to be faced and is in twenty twenty eight and that is election notices and that's in sections one through thirteen and seventeen. Follow up. Ing the Amendment you're asking the counties to publish things on a centralized website as well as continue to publish them in the newspapers of phasing those out over very times that correct they will be phased out one each year that they are not required to print them in the newspaper they can still choose to do so but this gives them the option to put it to a website if that's what's best for their county or city okay thank you. Representative Richardson. Do we have the potential costs associated with the website at this point. In that actual language it says that it will be charged at commercially reasonable right commercially reasonable rate and if there's a definition inside there what commercial reasonable right is to. But we don't have a number. No because commercial reasonable right will be something that's term about the market. Anyone else with questions. Not representative Cavenaugh you're recognized for yes I'm make a motion for adoption of amendment. Any discussion on the motion. All in favor of the motion say aye. All opposed. Thank you now you can present your bill thank you the we're here because what worked in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries doesn't work in the twenty first century anymore. We're in a transition period of how people receive their information and news more and more people receive it digitally than three pre at it happens more every day and I understand the concerns of the page newspapers and I've listened to their concerns and I do want to thank them for their honest and Frank conversations that we've had about that and I understand the fears and the concerns that they have. But I made this amendment because I believe it's the fares to both parties I believe that it helps the newspapers give them an opportunity to look at a different business model that can help them but I also believe that it gives the control back to the cities and the counties where they can make the best decision on how to get the notices to their constituents and their citizens what works in Jonesboro Arkansas may not work in Northwest Arkansas may not work in Little Rock this gives them the opportunity to make those decisions for themselves. It does not require them not to print in the newspaper it just gives them the option to be able to go to a digital website if they feel that that's the best way to get noticed to their constituents that they live in. There is not a one size office bill there's not a one size office almost anything that we do down here because it does that and that's what this bill allows us to do is to begin to see that cities and counties can make those decisions for themselves and how they need to notify their citizens. Your hear from both sides for and against and you'll hear some mayors I'm sure that will say they're going to continue to print in their newspapers because they have a good local newspaper they will continue to do so this bill doesn't stop that from happening it just gives another option and quickly I do just want to go through what the bill actually does as we talked about in the amendment it is going to phasing and the different notices over a five year period so that one every year so one one of twenty four will be the financial statements and budgets one one twenty five will be ordinances. And one one twenty six will be delinquent personal property one one twenty seven will be real estate and certification real estate and the last thing to move over we and one one twenty eight and that is election notices. The other thing that I've done that I thought and I listened to the the press about the transparency and that's why I went to one central website that is ran by a third party is not a dot gov the one thing that this to make sure that this website does do what it's supposed to in the bill it will then but now become under legislative audit to make sure that they're following the rules that they should be following because of these notices. I want to make sure that we all understand the only thing removing all the notices that I've listed in the bill we're not moving legal notices or not moving beds not moving construction it is only these notices in the bill the other ones are still going to be published in the newspapers. With that I know everybody is probably like myself tired of hearing about the bill see in the bill but I just want to say we are in a transition period in our country in a lot of different ways with technology technology has changed the way that we sell cars. Technology has changed the way we drive cars. Technology is changing the way we receive information and news. We don't use paper in this here any more well how do we get our information we get it digitally and that's where we're moving. And we're here a lot of talk about how we've been doing this for years and we have been doing it this way for years but technology and times have changed and as a society and government we have to move with those as they happen and without a big by taking questions. We have. Representative sorry. Thank you Mr chair. I don't think I disagree with what you said but my concern is on page seven of your bill which would be the the law. My lines are numbered but it would be subsection any. Talking about the third party website. And. and I have a couple questions if I may be allowed some latitude as a couple at a time thank you Mr chair of and I notice that it's in in this amended bill it says an of selected by a L. C. the Legislative Council do we it and I believe it was mis represent Richard's son ask while ago of the cost of that is there been any estimation of cost and who's going to pay that cost to get that website higher that third party person. Anything like that can you shed some more light on that the cities and counties are going to be responsible for paying for their publication on that website no I'm I'm I apologize that the initial start up cost of that website definitional start up website will be from a third party and that they will bear that expense that will be the one that bears the expense and in the cities and counties then we'll you know contract with that third party and I will do the actual printing so that the person that gets the contract basically will be the one that's responsible for the cost. Follow up Mister chair of it I get I guess I maybe I'm not as sure as first time I've ever heard of a website or third party. Doing something for free is that what we're going to ask for we're not asking for bids were just going to be asking for someone to set up a website later for you will have the ability to do bids and contracts okay has a physical statement of fiscal impact statement been done on this bill no I would ask for a fiscal impact statement. Okay that's going to help the bill until we get a fine. The impact statement. May I ask Mister chair all the people that come to speak for against the bill is driven all this way are they not gonna be able to speak for against the bill and are they going to have to drive again speak for against the bill that was on notice. When the representative could have easily ask for that before hand. Representative of a. For and to hear all the arguments and everything but we just asked that we withhold our vote because it's my understanding this is going to cost the state some money and and I think I need to find out maybe I'm wrong but I need to find out this is going to be a million dollar hit to the state or five dollars I mean I I think that's a legitimate question but I certainly have no objection whatsoever for us to hear because I know people have come from everywhere and they're ready to testify I certainly have no objection to that it's just that this was the first time I have seen this and I also think there's misunderstanding this is not a website run by the government is not going to cost the state anything yeah. We're not setting it up. Third party will be the person that runs it. Okay. What we're gonna do. As we got a goal proceed with. Take the motor today. But we will because so many people have traveled so far. We're gonna go ahead and take the. Testimony on the shelf. Representative Collins. Thank you Mr chair of representative cannot you talked about Leding cities counties go to digital website and and about the changes in technology do they not already have the ability with these newspapers to publish online isn't that an option in many cases. They don't have the ability to go to a website it's it is dictated that they have to printed paper so this would give them the option to do either or or they can continue to do both but now the only option that they really have required by law is to print in the newspaper. Red representative right. Thank you Mr chairman representative Cavenaugh I'm up I'm gonna lean over here that's my question so we can so one of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around is what what is the. Does the cost do it is there any one has been able to ascertain typically in a year what is the cumulative cost to local governments to run all of these notices has anyone tried to compile that figure well I'm sure that the as they come up they'll have their cost figures because most of the cities and counties can tell you what it calls for them to actually do this that is something I'm sure they're better able to speak to but it does run into quite a bit of money first counties and wild and in particular smaller cities and counties that takes a bigger portion their budget okay and then I'm I walked in late because I was in another committee I'm just now looking at the The Amendment but I guess could you could you go into a little bit more detail about the independent third party websites so it's not gonna be a government website is the does the state have any control over the website or a can you allow expound on that a little bit yes so. The original bill had that it would be a dot gov website and as I was speaking with the press and the press association they did bring out some good points about transparency for the citizens and to make sure that there is an ability for them to know that what was being done was being done it truly a transparent level and I do believe that's true so that's where I came up with the amendment for the third party website that third party website we could be any website currently there's you know one that currently already publishes those notices you know if the LCD chose them to be that they could continue to be that but it gives the opportunity that third party could come and play actually replied to a bed and they could take the actual you know. Get the bed run the website in the cities and counties would pay them for the ability to publish on to their website so it's not something ran by the state it's not something the state's going to develop into something that will actually be approved third party. Thank you Mr chair so you actually have a couple questions. We'll. Thank you so at couple questions for you one I'm I'm kind of curious how we came to the specific selections we're gonna leave the counties and cities posting these notices in the newspaper and that's going to continue they are going to migrate these other pieces away from that what was the driving factor for those pieces well if you look at the other notices a lot of those are legal notices and they come from a lot of different areas so it's not as easy as a city in a county being the one responsible for those notices so they could come from courts that could come from many different places. Okay so it's just ease of of abuse it's usually who has the control of those notices in cities and counties have control of these notices K.. What was the driving factor for the selection of the order in which we you're going to migrate in those things you you were specific about which years are going to be turning off which pieces to be honest with you I didn't really have a rhyme or reason I wanted to make sure that Alexa notices where the last because I thought those should be the one to beat last that people can have opportunity and really I'll be honest with the ID get input from the cities and the counties or anyone from the notice I I selected those notices and if you look at the notices I selected that notices that would have the bigger impact on the revenue of the papers are actually the ones that are later on. Right so so you're you're not migrating these according to revenue impact you're migrating these on and what you felt like not trying put words in your mouth but what you felt like would be the most impactful. To both this citizens yes to the citizens yes so the driving factor for delaying those was that you felt like not publishing those in the newspaper would be impactful to the citizens not only the citizens because what this also does is allow that that cities and counties will then have to post in the wet and apart in the newspapers and add it tells them where to do that so it gives the citizens a longer period of time to know where to go to get it so it's not that they won't have the ability to see it is not that they won't have the ability to know where it is it's built into them the actual bill that they will be able to know where because that's required that the cities and the counties print that so that they know where to go get these but for me when I was looking at it it was really what is most impactful to the revenue stream of the mom and pops newspapers that would not have this revenue okay and last question thank you the state is now we'll come back to you sure no problem thank you Mr. All right representative right. Thank you Mr chairman you know Fran. Every county as far as I know right now has a third party I know that the assessors and collectors they have this in place already with Arkansas camera and also appraise information system so I just wonder if they may be involved with that because they're already used to use in that type of programming we didn't want it to be a dot gov website we wanted it to be a third party for transparency. And one centrally located one only one we didn't want one for seventy five counties and however how many cities we have we just want everyone website so citizens make it easier for them to find the information okay thank you thank you Mr. Representative Darby. Thank you Mr chair of represent Cavenaugh United discusses bill I think it links and could you just explain to me I think be helpful maybe to the Committee what safeguards or who's going to be watching the counties and municipalities to make sure that they're following the guidelines and publishing correctly it is not missing those guidelines because you know in lawsuits and stuff sometimes there has to be an affidavit that something was published and how would that address that is if you could kind of talk to talk to us about that I'm just curious to cities and counties are already under legislative audit and whoever might get this website will also be under legislative audit to make sure that they're doing the required duties. Represent clients. Thank you chairman right after I tell people my my dad still can't pronounce and I've been married twenty five years so it's all good. And so quick question for you to actually won it do you think it's confusing then for the average citizen if I've got a couple notices online in a couple notices in the paper that now I don't really know where to go when I have to check to places in order to find the notices. Not when they have a add this on an exactly where those notices are going to be because unfortunately we're in a transition period we could run it to where there's none at all and I don't think that's fair to citizens I think this is the fairest way for us to begin to migrate to digital because unfortunately that's where we're at society okay and then I and I don't disagree I mean is that obviously is the direction that we are all heading right the second question is don't we already have a website that does not Arkansas public notices where they opposed all the notices that are out there already the Arkansas press association has a website that does that but you cannot name a website in statute it's on constitute it you cannot provide a person our provider into the and she'll it is unconstitutional and I understand that but I'm saying if we already have a website out there that is doing precisely what you're suggesting it to do then doing they only do it if you print in their newspapers. Have you talked to the I'm sorry. Representative long. Thank you Mr chairman a representative I didn't see it anywhere in in the bill who's going to own the domain name because I I got to thinking it's like forget ever used to going to certain domain name and at some point the future of this company goes out of business or your reserve prices to since something of that nature that we might need to use somebody else but if we retain the domain name maybe and that would be a problem I would say that would be part of the contract that would be handled through a LC that they would address who owns the domain and where it goes thank you. Representative Collins. Thank you Mr chair so you said that the the third party website would be subject to legislative audit you know legislative auditors you know is generally for government entities but this would not be a government website can you tell me how that would work in with the third party website have to agree to be subject to legislative audit and how is that describing this bill which I guess I haven't it it actually says that they will be subject to legislative audit in the in the statute actually says if you're gonna run this website you will be subject to legislative audit and as you know lot of people take a lot of different tax dollars that are private companies and they do get audit. follow yes. Just because this amendment is new can you direct me to where that's described in the manager if you will look at section twenty one. Thank you I'll take a look thank you. Represent rate. Thank you Mr chairman representative Cavenaugh I'm trying to partially understand how the current process works versus what it would be changed to I know the press association has a website I think they're the ones that maintain it it's the Arkansas public notices dot com or something like that do you know if they charge to put those ads though those public notices on the on the site or did they just charge to run them in the paper and I'm looking at page six where it says commercially reasonable rate in section twenty one. Hi I'm wondering how that's going to be determined and how. How much money this is going to say. The associate the press association wanted to speak to you about how they charge but my understanding is if you publish and I wept and I'm newspaper they automatically put that in there so I guess the cabbie ought is to publish in the newspaper and it gets there that's how it currently does so for if they were to handle it there would be a charge that they would have to charge somebody just like any other third party website would have to do and it would have to be charged at a commercially reasonable right and if you're looking and I think we also have the definition if you under look under definitions you have what commercially reasonable right would be and it's basically a right that would be charged any commercial business customer that to do the service so under your bill it would be perfectly feasible for them to end up being the vendor that hosted it is that right it could be whoever I also chose yes. Thank. Representative I under. Thank you Mr president representative on all of your these negotiations was there any time when an offer of lowered additional rates ever entered into the conversation there has been lots of negotiations back and forth that yes that was an offer that was made to the cities and counties for us assume a discount on their published rate but they felt that in the long run it was just putting off what was inevitably going to happen because we're moving away from print to digital. Thank. Representative rich. Thank you Mr so I want to circle back on on the idea of of why we initially publish these things in the in the newspaper is there any historical reasons for providing those notices via a newspaper and be at that format I believe this actually started in the nineteenth century that it was requiring that these published be published because that was the way most people got their news and information and that's why it came about but as we know we're in the twenty first century and more and more people get their news and information to a digital format rather than through the print format certainly follow Mister chair. Hello Sir so given that would the newspaper was do you feel like that they're no longer a given that they we've discussed already they already publish these things on the website as well as published in their newspaper given that format do we feel like it's no longer relevant for the free press to provide these notices to our our people in that cross the state or is that better handled through and you feel like that's better handled through a private party I think what it should be handled by is the local people at the local level and I can make a decision what's the best way to get the information to the most of their citizens whether it's the printing in a newspaper or whether it's through printing on a website they should have the ability to make that decision as we transition from a print society to a digital society just one follow up. Please follow up just to just to be clear that they are currently getting those in both digital and print through the newspapers some I guess my question becomes why is it better to hire a third party private entity to publish these things when we've been relied on free press to publish and be a unbiased party associated with that for all this time for the unbiased party that does the publication now is provided this information from the cities and counties they're not going out there and research and getting that information they're being provided that and they are actually charging the classified rates so it's not about free press it's about local control in what they can do to get the information most to their citizens and the way that they think that they get the most information out like I said before many my still print in the local paper because that's still an option in this bill but there are many that. I'll be honest my son never looks at a print newspaper he would know where to find a notice so what if we were able to have a website they would be able to notice where to get it and at least be one simple website so they don't have seventy five different websites to go to. Represent. Got all and and. Your. Thank you chairman have you looked at the expense of broadband internet across Arkansas and how moving to fully did are any of these notices online completely I. think you started with the. ordinances maybe on my actual statement thank you financial statements have you looked at the impact of people not being able to access those because they don't have good access I mean we saw there during covered right a lot of places a lot of places didn't have good access to internet and they were driving to McDonald's and sitting in a parking lot so have you have you looked at what the impact of that might be I have looked at that and that's why I chose not to go to a one time just let's do it all at once let's face it the insult people have the ability because as you know this state are spending millions of one hundred millions of dollars to roll out broadband and we will continue to do so until the state of Arkansas is covered in broadband and I will say there are in most places in Arkansas you if you don't have broadband you have cell service they're going to be some places don't health sales service but most citizens of the State of Arkansas have a cell phone in their hand and they look up their news on their cell phone and they're not doing it online from sometimes are doing it going down the road unfortunately. President representative Collins you. Thank you Mr chair each represent Cavenaugh in reference to represent of Richardson's questions about the value of the free press in publishing this you said that the you thought to be better for the local people to be able to decide the best way to get the information out if they're doing that through the third party on the back to the same fox in the henhouse problem that we had under the original version of the bill where essentially they're using this third party website to self publish where they may not have the same motivation that the press would be in full transparency. There under right now they're self publishing because are given that information to the newspapers and newspapers aren't going out and research and and a finding that out for themselves the city's and county's give it to them and they print it would be the same way that they would do with the website. Represent pets. Mister chair and representative Cavenaugh I guess I need to more clarification on why we're switching to this third party vendor because I've been looking at various newspapers from different parts of the state online all of which have public notices when I go to their web pages so R. E. is your argument that we need a single website that all of this all this information is is put on to or that. Public or the newspapers are providing this already because we talk about the difference between France and and online information but most of these newspapers have an online presence they do but for legal reasons that's not. Going to suffice for legal notice because of the legal definition it won't suffice but also if we have one website that all citizens can go to to see public notices for throughout the state it's easier to get that information rather than having to go to the hundred fifty different newspapers if I'm set in an arc in Truman and I want to see what's happening in Walnut Ridge because I'm not on some property Walnut Ridge and I'm able to go to one website do that not have to go to two or three different websites. Related Andrew this year thanks. Thank you what kind of bills off the representative Macklin's question of combat kind of a little bit differently so um this part of my district where we don't have broadband in I do not have cell service. Or other certain small not an I mean small percentage population of people who refuse to use internet here if using a cell phone and still like a piece of paper handy read stuff or we can discriminate against them they can still get it. It can still be printed if that's how the citizens can get the information it can still be there and we're not taking away the notices the other ways to get the notices which is go to your city how are your or your courthouse that's always been ability to get those notices and so you can still continue to do that if they wanted to print a copy. But and rule Arkansas where there might not be brought Grannis cell service if they've got a local paper I'm pretty confident that those those people elected to represent them we're going to get the information to them the best way possible that they can because they're wanting to just like us they want to take care of their citizens to. Thank you. Which you without you you don't have questions represent rich. No. Is there any other questions from committee. Say no other questions we got. We have a lot of people signed up to speak. Really want you to to made a comment and present your yours your case but we we really short on time so we that we have to be out of here by eleven forty five the cost is another committee meeting coming in here panda so as we call you come come to the table and state your case and will first against would be. Come to the table identifies. Aaron okay. Good morning my name is robin counted the general manager of three newspapers in South Arkansas the Camden news they'll rate news times and the banner news. I had a statement prepared regarding H. B. thirteen ninety nine in late yesterday I got word there would be an amendment it would be reckless. To tell you that I've had time to really study the Bill. From what I do understand my points are still valid I spent my adult life working for these three newspapers I chose to stay in this challenging industry because I believe in what we do. Newspapers are vital to democracy. Avital to the communities we serve in the families we employee I'm proud to cover high school sports stories about make a wish recipients crime in the city. And the four H. in FFA kids working through extreme heat to take care of their animals I'm proud of the stand we take and what we do every day. I'm proud of it all removing public notices from newspapers will absolutely hurt your community newspapers. The people we employ. And the the the citizens we serve I'm here to only ask you to vote against H. B. thirteen ninety nine transparency's sitting county government should be as concerning to you as it is your constituents the only people. The only people who take issue with transparency of those has something to hide it is not enough to post it on a website somewhere according to the Arkansas newspaper article published in December twenty two an estimated hundred ten health thousand households still lack broadband how your constituents reach the websites print is still an option for these people. Average monthly readership alone for my market is over sixty six hundred readers in the various formats are newspapers do not charge anyone to view legal notices on our websites. We also publish every single one on Arkansas press public notice website so you do have your one centralized website. According to the Google analytics in twenty twenty to our newspapers of Arkansas had two million three hundred forty seven thousand nine hundred sixty two visitors. We had thirty three million one hundred fifty six thousand three hundred thirty page views the counties municipalities narrative is that they're doing this purely for financial reasons in twenty twenty to Union County spent less than one percent of their total expenditures on public notice advertising less than one percent in Ouachita County story similar less than one percent the city of Camden spent point zero three. We should all be asking ourselves why they're pushing so hard for something that clearly will not make the financial impact they would like you believe it will. To place a public notice on a website somewhere is not enough anyone can build out a go Daddy website I could build a go Daddy website today that doesn't mean it's going to be user friendly secure and it doesn't mean I'm going to be in business in twelve months. So if the legislative auditors have a problem with this website they were gonna go to a different website next year. That makes no sense for your constituents. This is not small government it is big government taking away the principal checks and balances in a time where people have the least amount of trust in the government and the election process we want to take away the one thing that ensures transparency I can't run a public notice incorrectly and hide it it's there for all the world to see. That will not be the case on a website along. The amended bill states that the problem arise with third party website that could replace it with another this is just going to create more confusion. Again the question is why it cannot be about money this could end up costing counties municipalities more than what they currently pay the questions already represent have you priced a website of this magnitude lately or the maintenance costs to maintain a monthly. We made it clear we have made our life's work to build a brand on honesty integrity and trust let's continue that work for the people of Arkansas I would encourage or at yourself to ask it to ask yourself these three questions before you cast your vote is this good for democracy is a good for transparency is it good for your constituents that you Sir. If you answer these three questions honestly you'll have to vote no to this bill. And I would like to remind you today that you don't answer your county judges you don't answer to your mayors your county clerks or any of your elected officials you answer to your constituents thank you for your time today and I humbly ask you to support newspapers as we continue to support democracy in matters today more than ever any questions from committee. Representative right. Thank you Mr ma'am when you referred to one percent is that one percent of the county and city budgets or are you that was less than one percent of their total expenditures. Last year so if if you had a county that span and a three million dollar budget would that be thirty thousand dollars. It be less than that okay this one one. And we're. Thank you to your in my question is to the percentage do you have the dollar amount I do. So union counties the the county with one of my newspapers in of the total expenditures for their for the last year twenty twenty to twenty seven million six hundred forty thousand three hundred twenty two dollars. They spent. No I don't have the dollar amount I'm sorry on that but it was point one four percent. Representative ready. Thank you Mr chairman and thank you for your testimony quick one question I have is yeah as I've talked to folks in the newspaper industry about this issue one thing that comes up consistently as I say that they're almost doing this is sort of a a public service you know to notify the public my question is do your newspapers charge the same rule of the same rate as you would for other advertising or is there a special rate for public notices. That's closer to at cost. I cannot answer to what other newspapers two hours we have generally offered the lowest line rate. That we offer for legal publications it is less than what it would be for just a person that comes in off the street okay all right thank you. I'm can you tell me so I know you said that it's. Let's representing Union County a part of the county's budget but what part if you can share of your budget do you get for these new. How much is how much is this actually impacting your bottom line. I cannot answer that today I'm sorry I don't have the exact amount they spent with me Last year. Thank you any other questions from committee. Problem is that all of. Under the table and state your name identifies seven who you're with. Good morning Mr chairman my name is Dr Joyce and Johnny I'm with the Arkansas center for research in economics also known as acre we a university based research center housed in the college of business of the investee of Central Arkansas we conduct original academic research and policy analysis on issues like government transparency I'm here to express my opinion in support of this bill my opinion is solely mine does not necessarily reflect the position of the university of central Arkansas my argument in support of this bill is in regard to two portions of the bill a specific to because what we local governments over the S. those portions saying in section eighteen and twenty of the bill consented publisher requirements of city by laws ordinances and I know financial statements those purpose sections of the bill. We law allows cities to publish this information in the newspaper all online if this portion of the bill passes it will be great for government transparency for three reasons and I'll just highlight quickly those three reasons first this law would greatly improve Arkansas as local government transparency performance income praise into the counterparts across the nation we had a co we've been working with instructions local government transparency since twenty eighteen I will publish a transparency report called the axis Arkansas transparency report with focused on counties over the years this year stay looking at CD's as well and this year's edition of the report is set to be released in March this yes assessments will show that consular with transparency in Arkansas has improved significantly it turned a contributing factor to that is the fact that these files past five six full in twenty nineteen and five six for Monday's Boyd counties to put their budgets online after the law passed we saw it seeking transparency before that time or the it's counties where publishing their budgets online to date all seventy five counties publish the fiscal information inclusive of budgets online unfortunately cities did not have that same mandate currently all the tender for out of a hundred and twelve Arkansas. Cities of the first class publish the budgets online if this proposed bill passes in this section of the bill passes this change will improve the average call for city transparency not index by zero point eight points on this quick on a scale of zero to one that improvement will be similar to the changes that county's beat Act five six will be cities choose to publish and those information online the second issue is that is the issue that's been debated here home cost savings for local government in today's digital age it's easier more than ever before for local governments to make information available online in the past you don't have to use fancy websites honestly can use what press which is an open minded man top platform in in the past we've also use a R. Transparency dot gov website but I saw the amendment this morning that requiring taught Patsy website but the example of state's website step up to the transform transparency website into optional call C. B. in for the fifty states that are dont is our Mississippi South Carolina Texas various cities up also doing this to cuddle fort Collins in Colorado that so many I could provide at least if if this if anyone is interested at the top and final reason is that this bill expands the reach for residents that current currently deceptive information people I guess and what engage online these days than ever before that a lot of best practice research that supports this another issues those Denny this proposed a commission data is dropping by the number it will compare this numbers to the number of people over the age of. It's in then we would see that we are not currently serving does people would need more information with information in conclusion overall this bill this great for transparency you would passes the implication is that it will provide residents with equal and so screen access to government information thank you. Thank you represent a college you have. Thank you Mr chair so I I listen to your remarks about transparency but I don't really understand why this would be an improvement in transparency to move from an independent newspaper website to a website that is effectively under the control of the city or the county can you address why that's an improvement to have Again the fox in the henhouse and we're talking about something that's controlled by the county why is that better to do it on something that's controlled by the city or town. Okay we if the previous. Before the amendment of today to that portion of the bill that I that I saw they could publish on whether it's a website that is owned by the county or by by eight of the states all by you know by choice by told possible with this new amendments explicitly stating that it has to be a top party website it doesn't mean that is restricted. It only means that it is a website of choice is that the plan to collect a county OCD I've chosen to pull that information up online and Act five six for what this legislature deed was to designate in the in the law. What that website should look like what kind of website it could be and I believe that this is just a question of amendment so if this information is not online cities can also opt to put it in a local newspaper it does not strike out the local newspaper option to to the out of the completion of the law. Follow. Thank you are just quick follow do you think that cities and counties will pay commercially reasonable rate for the third party website and also pay newspapers you think that's realistic that they'll do both. If given an option it costs nothing to have a website so um I cannot speak to the county for the counties or cities what we have seen in the past with what happened with at five six four is that some some of those come to the will put the information on Facebook put a link because that is the web platform warned that that's because the county the situation might be different for the C. to support I do not speak for them and I do not speak for the municipal me and we'll all want to know what that phone would look. Representative Richardson. Thank you Mr thank you so much for your testimony today appreciated just a clarification I'm not overly familiar with five six four so if you could tell me specifically the requirements for a website and requirements for I think you said counties to the published their budgets and how that would impact cities publishing their budget if they use this website I guess my confusion is. At five six four didn't apply to counties but now you're suggesting that it excuse me didn't apply to cities but now it's going to apply to cities with this bill yes so the exam language of five six four if I may just be to the law requires all Arkansas counties to poles that annual budgets on the website end or maintained by the county the state or the association of Arkansas counties beginning January one of twenty twenty county as well already required to publish so see such information in their local newspaper before that time so we ACT five six four before Aug five six forty went on to in that so it was just C. H. counties that web publishing such information of that. After five successful we saw counties publishing those information on different platforms the eyes Arkansas association of counties also had a platform whether we're putting does information and then we had a Transparency dot call with that information was also available so today if you Google said Pulaski County all Faulkner County and you say you're looking for a budget to an audit to cook easily click on it and you will get access to that information for cities there is no current mandate what that you will struggle finding some of them out of budgets or audits online if you're looking for it so what we're seeing is that this would be great for transparency if they have an option to publish some of this information online. Any other questions committee thank you so much for thank you. Except we have yes Joe my. And I do want to and and right once again less as you know we're short of time to try to get as many in the making thank you case. Stage nine. Okay good morning my name is Joe may I'm the publisher and editor of the southern standard in Clark County. I appreciate all of you all for taking the time to listen to this day I can't imagine how busy your schedule is actually our newspapers and government have been tied in together since the very earliest days and it was this relationship that gave rise to the media being known as the fourth the state or the fourth branch of government as things now stand every state in the union utilizes newspapers as the primary means of reaching out to the public because newspapers are easily assessable and known to be the medium of choice for government communication. Now perhaps the day is coming when printed papers will go the way of the buggy whip but at least in my little area of the state that's probably going to be a long wall coming all ages subscribe to the weekly southern standard which is incorrect only in Clark and pike counties and the citizens depend on it to learn local using government happenings such as delinquent tax list government job listings city or county ordinances which concern them as well as his local news items it's been my experience that far too many people either do not have the internet or do not possess the necessary savvy to be able to navigate through a great deal of website it's far easier for most folks to pick up a newspaper and simply turn to a page to find what they're looking for for us at this point to eliminate newspapers as a carrier of legal notices would disenfranchise many citizens especially when it comes to the annual delinquent tax notices I will tell you if you've ever had your name appear on that list as I have you won't forget to pay your taxes because you're gonna have so many people telling you that they saw your name in the newspaper. And it's fair to point out that this list that appears in the paper is paid for by friends from those on the Lync what roles not from the county's actual coffers. A transparency is a big buzz word in our society today by eliminating newspapers as carriers of legal notices you'll be leaving a large segment of the population out of the loop particularly those above the age of forty I'm not the only one that shares this opinion my good friend and my personal state Rep Justin Gonzales who is here today has told me that he also has concerns about this proposal because he understands the value of newspaper in government he's been a very good friend our newspaper over the years this amendment that was for a proposed last night does absolutely nothing what our cans and is going to thank I want to go search for public notice on the website today they simply will not do that inflation is high people are strapped they're trying to make ends meet websites are where public notices go to die because constituents will never seek them out we have to see them. We need to make it easier for all the people of Arkansas that keeping public notices in newspapers right now our newspaper simply sales legals at five dollars per column inch which each extremely low compared to most in Arkansas at times we've actually lowered the rate to help a government that was lacking in funds for a particular issue the relationship between my newspaper the local government covers has always been one of friendliness and trust because in the end it's not about what we think or what we want it's about disseminating accurate and unbiased information to the public so that they can make informed choices and the government can do its work on hindered by false information at this point my fear is not so much about my bottom line even though newspapers make up easily sixty five to seventy five percent of my revenue you as much as is is about the parties and ship and the accusations of dishonesty that would eventually come from the citizenship that is not as able to easily learn about government working says it once was keeping local notices or legal notices in local newspapers insures that there will be less talk of government secrecy because more people will feel included I thank you all for your tent. Thank you bye read right we'll take your questions. Thank you Mr chairman So I understand you you mainly focused on issues of transparency one of the concerns that has been voice to me from newspapers just in general the health of the industry and the effect that removing public notices would have Exhilarating the trend of local papers going out of business so I'm I'm. I say that to practice my question. How may a for a typical local newspaper how much of their revenue is derived from local not for from public notices well being the only newspaper in the county right now. A lot of my income the greater part of my income comes from local from legal notices on election year which it's even more we do have good support from the community but with all the various legal notices tax that is a primary slice of our income and I don't I don't know that I could really keep the doors open without it honestly because the area that I survey is not the best economically businesses are strapped in okay I'm for so these guys can go to Facebook for free or for just a few dollars. They're going to do it and I I can't really blame them sometimes. Yes so I I guess obviously their subscriber revenue there's regular advertising revenue and there's public notice revenue there may be other revenue streams I'm not aware of but I mean how would you can you assign a number or at least rank them in terms of. Well subscriber revenue is not pretty much unfortunately right now I'm paying four hundred something dollars a week just to the post office for them to lose a lot of my papers subscribers of the up from years ago it was forty dollars now you can see how much it's multiplied the then there's the print bill about about that much and I'm actually being printed at a reasonable rate let's of more so than other papers. And then you'll just average of bills that any business has but I revenue is is advertising. Based essentially you know the called cost per copy seventy five cents that goes by a different bill and you know you don't make a lot of profit off of the subscriptions as I pointed out so advertising is what fuels the newspaper okay and I know this bill does not affect all public notices there's many that yes it leaves in place do you have can you estimate how much of the public notice revenue would be affected by this bill versus how much would remain intact yes Sir during a non election year and I'm I'm talking if we have a a big election in which they have to run the couple pages in my paper the. It would probably. This would probably cut you know thirty. Thirty to forty percent of the legal advertising from me that would be a gas. The. It would be a shock it would be very hard to. It may be harder and a non election year probably wouldn't be that substantial in a non election year it wouldn't be that much depending on what your government's got going on sometimes you'll have a city that's that spits out organises every month and other times you'll have one or two year term all right thank you for answering those questions yes Sir thank you for your testimony represent a group and and I ask this in one thank you shortest possible our cost thank you chairman and appreciate your presentation you bring a lot of common sense a good issues of when the questions that I have let me say that the one time I read the public notices when you pointed out that one time the year that they planned all those names and so I appreciate that but as a state representative my job is not to let me back up seven lobbyist most by. The newspapers and by government but my job is to represent the people not the newspaper or the government and if we take the money out of this I try to look at the reason it what is the best it makes sense to me that the population under forty it's going to go over that phone and not not one five bits cellular and they're going to look there and going to website to them maybe. Their choice were mine might not be but from a personal point of view now from newspaper nothing the government side wine if and if the website is very accessible maybe even more accessible to people that were newspapers not being delivered. And easily accessible and it's it's it's a good saving the taxpayers money give me a personal view one a person not a newspaper not a the government would say that it needs to stay in the newspaper well first off the people under forty are that active so they're usually not actually looking for a lot of this stuff the over forty of the reason that they would want the newspaper is simply yes they know exactly where to go here they go the newspaper they don't have to navigate a website that could be hacked they don't have to deal with this or that or slow service or anything like that they pick up the printed page in their eighties. Thank you Sir yes per common except we have. We have ducks. Routes from. Speaking thank you for. Good morning my ducks freshman cities bring down I'll be very brief because I know there's a lot of people that were talking or in a hurry but I do appreciate this time uh let me just I'll just bring up one or two points and that's that first of all the cities Springdale pays about sixty thousand dollars a year that's a that's I let may not be a big percentage out of our budget but that's still a lot of money that could be used and we we work hard to use our money the best way to serve to serve our residents and and the the fact is that when I when I'm talking with someone and about something in the paper I tell him how they see how are we supposed to know this and I say well the reason we put these notices in the paper they look at me like I just rode up on a horse and buggy and the newspapers are not irrelevant I read mine every day and and I'm I appreciate our local paper but I don't believe that. That publishing these notices in the newspaper is always the best option we may continue to use that option should this bill pass at least for a long time but it's not the it's it's not it shouldn't be our only option and I think we could even get into local control argument that I've I'm very strongly for local control and and so I just a I just or ask for a a pass on this for you to pass this bill with the as amended and that's all I gotta say so thank you very much for your time and I support this bill. Thank you is in a way. Speaking against mark line. Trying come to the table and. Good morning my name is mark lane on the president of the the husband family of newspapers on here today to represent all of our Arkansas newspapers realize you've only had a few hours to digest this bill I frankly thought had as well however I hope you have an open mind is introduced made a couple of other topics maybe not considered through this bill the sponsors of this bill previously said bill is all about saving our Kansans money respectfully it's very difficult if not impossible to answer that question today the committee the bills paid to to change about the charge for the notices will be commercially reasonable rate what does that really mean it could actually end up costing a lot more you already know what the newspapers rates are you already know the newspapers but the the the notices on their on their news the news print as well as the website earlier the question was website or a newspaper in our world and we put every noticed an independent newspaper but every notice on our website and everything notice also is upload it to the Arkansas press association's website. so we've heard about money we first thought about money in fact you know we offered government discount just a few days ago and was rejected we also offered that singular a statewide website would make sense and that was also rejected the committee a bill of state that the notice was placed on third party site the notice already placed on a third party site I'm with the Arkansas press association public notice on or on the website for free it's free access on our site as well as Arkansas press association's website for all Arkansans I wish that decades of earning the trust of of of of the public also the Arkansas Press as I spent some significant money in two thousand and twenty two upgrading their operating a website where someone can go in and set up a key word and get auto alerts based on notices it and they want to see. hi we know today that the third party website that might be selected in the future can deliver what they promise one of the unintended consequences the liabilities the heirs the missions Bill per possible lawsuits I want to fill the publisher notice what the public is not aware of a public notice what are the potential savings the bill reads as follows a county ordinance or notice is not invalid for failure trimming can usually posted on a website in other words no accountability thank you to rest the pencils the pencil savings and this bill is a drop in the boxing or rob budget the counties for example Garland County spent point one two percent of their overall budget that's about one tenth of one percent of your of our budget was spent on public notices in Miller county was point one percent and you counties for a point one four percent. as for our company we're in Arkansas family owned business that employs hundreds of our Kansans not something we're proud of we help our readers are proud of some of this by public notice is a subsidy to newspapers and it simply is not the case black's law dictionary defines subsidies a grant made by the government to an enterprise whose promotion is considered to be in public interest it's simply incorrect to describe a notice as a subsidy. we've heard we've heard this argument I like yes how could the state's largest newspaper oppose this bill when they mostly move to the content to digital why we why we still deliver a printed newspaper every single Sunday we did invest millions of dollars developing exacted took about digital replica of our newspaper by offering I've had as well to to our Kansans at a time when when we face many challenges in our industry we did not cut one single newsroom job. Due to fewer people do we have your paid news news news prescribers today the answer is yes we do but we still have a tremendous reach across the state companywide river proxy hundred seventeen thousand Rick our cans in the region newspaper each week on the digital side we have over seventy seven million visitors in twenty twenty two with two point three million billion skinny billion page views on a digital addiction get digital additions in twenty twenty two this is transparency so does not print and digital delivery of the public notices it's simple when you boil it all down it comes down to three things transparency the unknown third party website will not be seen by our Kansans budget the potential money saved as a drop in the bucket for the connection of cost me more money. Three liability are you willing to take this huge unknown risks the taxpayer's money we respectfully ask stand for transparency and vote against this bill thank you thank you represent Collins. Thank you in just and briefly as you mentioned this website that the notices are already on that press association publishes can you tell me how that works or they just from your newspapers it's searchable against kind of walk me through that all one hundred newspapers I have a feat that goes from their newspapers website or it could be could be manual to the Arkansas press association's website. Thank you. What if somebody over here to represent us. Thank you just to follow up on represent Collins question we heard some testimony earlier from some of the papers that don't have an online presence does that are they the ones that are able to put their information manually and does that happen. Yes it does happen the Arkansas Press if it's a local newspaper has difficulty doing that themselves the Arkansas press does it for them perfect thank you welcome. Thank you for. Next speaking for sure Sherri. Sherri Gardner come to the table. We we have about fifteen minutes left. I'll try to be quick. Thank you name as your guard in the city Clerk for the city of Fort Smith and the political here because I have it on my phone. Okay M.. S. city Clerk I can tell you that through my department for the cost of a publication of ordinances and public hearing notices that are only initiated for my office I expend about forty thousand dollars a year that does not include that is not the entire city of Fort Smith that is only ordinances and public hearing notices that are have to be originated in initiated from my office that is a lot of money it may not be a lot to some but it is a lot to our city of that money could be utilized for playground equipment for parks for children we have interest infrastructure that needs to be improved and that could be utilized to assist in that that M.. That endeavor just to let you know that our local paper okay recently within the last couple years was sold to a national conglomerate that means I don't have a local contact anymore when I used submit ordinances and and and public hearing notices for publication I am required to send that via email I don't have a local contact we have requested for telephone numbers that if we have an issue to call I can't they will not provided to me. We have to do that a lot of times to our publications we are required to have those published with the deadline many times we are sitting with bated breath breath and crossed and cross fingers just to to get confirmation that those publications will be published as statutorily required and just to let you know also that When we send those proofs of publication in a lot of times when when the when they send that back to us we are having to do that proofreading for them they are sending it to us and and and honestly I will not discredit the need for proof reading at all but we have found that because we are there are so many areas that are presenting back to us we're doing the work for that newspaper in many instances. I am just I would just like to also conveyed a very shortly that several years ago the city of Fort Smith I was required to publish a public hearing notice typically they are put in the legal classified section with the smaller print and it's not that expensive our newspaper actually put it on two huge sides to full newspaper pages and that cost over ten thousand dollars. Four one publication. We contacted the paper request for a the a reduction all we got was we're sorry in yes the city of Fort Smith did have to pay that ten thousand dollars for that invoice I would strongly urge your passage of this bill because it would be very substantial a benefit to our cities especially with the proofreading instances we would it would be so much easier if we could upload it that way we know. And have that confirmation that that publication is properly published as presented to the paper and with regard to that national conglomerate that has that has purchased our local just so you know I am not dealing with a company that that is not only located in my city it's not even in my state. I just appreciate your support for this bill thank you so much for coming next was. Tammy Curtis. State your name. And who you're with. Hello my name is Tammy Curtis and I own a small weekly paper in her chart County Arkansas the spring river chronicle of our paper is one of the only small papers that grew last year we moved up to a weekly due to our subscriber ship in support. We appreciate your being here but it's a sad day in Arkansas when the entity that is continually up held the public's right to know is forced to yet again defended from the very people who are elected to help maintain. The people have people that are here have showed up in mass from the counties yes we drove here without being paid by council to testify for something that we truly believe in house bill thirteen ninety nine is designed to not only tech government transparency under the guise of being a cost saving Avenue for counties but in reality is also a means of putting small newspapers out of business they're already strapped for cash we have made a lot of cuts and we have still survived the less than one percent that several of my colleagues have presented is going to be the same across other counties they will give you large numbers to make it sound like it's a lot but when you break the percentage down whether you have a seventy thousand dollar budget or seventy million dollar budget the percentage is the same. The trust that is put in a small town papers is not only because we provide them the day to day news like sports human interest stories police a restaurant reports but the publish my publishing of public policies that affect their businesses the very businesses that support the tax revenue that pays these county and city officials to maintain the jobs that they have most newspapers as been testified as mine does have also got a website and a social media presence which draws in even more. it we effectively reach an audience of over twenty five thousand followers on our social media and we have an average of sixty two hundred hits per week on our on our website. I'm sure law the council websites don't even have that or is in our county had not been updated for two years many areas of Arkansas fall at or below the poverty line two of our school districts are at seventy two percent and the other is that seventy seven percent poverty all the students get free lunches these are the people who you're saying have broadband access have cell phones have smartphones they also have these people have pay as you go phones in or forced to choose in these rural areas between their medication and whether or not they're going to have a cell phone to communicate for their work. People who don't own a computer or smartphone some of them don't even know how to operate it our area is comprised of two retirement areas where people don't even own computers yes some people can access on smartphones I understand. But putting these public notices on a government ran or a third party website takes the control from the media and the respect with that also small businesses follow these are the businesses that put their advertising dollars with us they trust us and they continue to advertise with us because we publish things like this. Please tell the people you were elected to represent that there is a better way to save money to put a price tag on but on government transparency. Stop trying to cut off the hand that provides it stopping now to pay special interest groups and represent the people of the state the people who read the newspapers the people who speak the news the people who want to know about their children's sports scores that will read a paper because they know that if something affects them that's where it will be after all there is some reason that Fran Cavanaugh spent fifty four hundred seventy dollars in newspaper print advertising to support herself in my newspaper in two thousand nineteen and twenty what is her bill include the requirement of publishing this notice whenever it goes into effect in newspapers if nobody's reading them. Who's going to promote you in these areas when you run for reelection or when you want to do something great in the community take pictures of you presenting that check or that equipment. Would be the newspapers that no one reads. No the only choice that's the here on this because when there's more questions than answers the only answers no. Please help uphold public transparency and the survival of small businesses like newspapers in the state thank you for your consideration. Thank you speaking thank you for coming. This section name and. I will thank you Mr chairman for having me here I'm Marvin day Craighead county judge for those of you don't know your counties well that's up in Jonesborough I also want to record the save quick word to thank representative Cavenaugh for your work and effort in trying to do this I really appreciated and and of course I have to talk to my very own Rep Johnnie Walker I thank you for represent us well here today you know I'll be brief my my speech is changed quite a bit since we started here today a lot of those points have been covered you know the current law was written in nineteen forty seven and if you think about it then if you wanted to write a note to your child that was in college in another community you have to send them a letter or telegram. And today you said that with the text or Instagram our world has changed and we need to change with that as a county judge we want to be fair entrance transparent you heard that from the Springdale mayor and and the other clerks you know nothing hurts us worse than not getting the word out to our people about what's going on we all state selections we all want to do the right thing And into because it will all take care of itself we're just trying to be cost efficient of you know local control is important we want what's best for each one each county's different. Clark county's the Arkadelphia paper very interesting of things he said that may be what's best for that community let them have that choice of our local paper a website let them or all the above give the give them that chance two or three of you mention the costs of a website in doing that. I'm an engineer by trade which means that generally make people mad because I ask too many questions I talked to my website guy in so dissociation counties they run a website that that puts out publications and I said Hey. Bottom line what's it cost us we said twenty thousand dollars a year to do the whole state. Great so I called my website got a slight I don't my name is Manu Nair companies called ace one technology that's is prepared for today and they do a great job when I called you miss a minute what what does it cost to take care website statewide this what we want to do. We want to get were it's all there that you can get it out to the people he so well make sure I understand you're gonna send me a PDF. And it's going to up loaded into a portal it'll populate this website and then I'm going to send you an email back to says you have made that proper notification we verified it I said yes Sir that's what we want to go to. He's one of the association council said less than twenty thousand dollars and he started laughing all the low balled me I'm so upset he goes five thousand dollars maybe ten that's what cost us to take care of everybody statewide. I'm not a website guy I've heard or opponents talk about that these costs could go through the roof that that's just not true you know one of the thing they've they've talked about the the press association website and that all the papers can be a part of that I don't know if that's true or not I did get on their website and there's not all the papers shown there what I can say is the fact is that there are thirty counties that apparently by other website passed no ordinances in twenty twenty two they didn't pass a budget they didn't change anything because according to their website there is nothing happened there so you know where is that accountability we we like having like audit part of this to look over our shoulders we want that word out there in in in in last this will not be paid for by the state the cities and counties are going to pay for you know right now if you if you look at the counties we by about a million and a half dollars year to the collective papers in the state we we don't know on the cities were estimating around two million a year and we think we can do that for a lot less let's put those dollars in the right place thank you. Thank you we we've got a couple questions here but we really it's time for us to to goal The representative right real quick. I had a question the judges fees will take questions I appreciate it I appreciate the concerns about wanting to be wise why steward of taxpayer money and if we pass this bill I imagine it would save local governments quite a bit of money or do you think that. Local governments are gonna find a way to return that money to the taxpayers or do you think they're just gonna spend. You know that's that's a good question you know I I look at it as a potential savings what is relief of talking to your people more effectively you know I had a business that wouldn't wouldn't scared to be in the back of the Jonesborough son they were scared to be on the internet they're scared to be on Facebook and so yes you know for us you know we're trying not to go have taxes go up and we'd love for taxes to go down but if we keep letting the bucket drip out small drops in inefficient ways you know it we we did we lose that ability so yes I hope we could cut taxes but I'm not I don't want that on the record so. All right Sir thank you thank you so much we have run out of time. And so we apologize for not everybody in it but to speak of the representative Holcomb is gonna explain the. What's about to happen sorry sorry with that there we did run out of time we're you know we're on a time schedule here we have our committees assigned to certain times and so I know a lot of you did not get to testify. we do apologize about that however after representative Cavenaugh guesser impact statement we'll put this back on special order so you'll have plenty of time to realize when we're actually going to run the bill and those of the did not get the opportunity day we're still get the opportunity we're sorry but with this there's nothing we can do about that thank you for being here.