State Agencies & Govt'l Affairs- House

You're here as a guest and just peek for against any builders a sign up sheet just outside the room be sure to sign up and then when we get to that bill I'll be sure to recognize you to come to the end of the table and without objection you are gone of got some the folks here that need to be in other places so without objections the first item on today's agenda will be Senate bill three fifty four Senator Hammer. You would just verify yourself to the committee and also as the got some gas with the attend the table just to have them to identify themselves and then you're recognized to present your senate bill thank you Mr Kim Hammer state senator district sixteen all of my guests introduce himself Mister offering Cavenaugh state rep District thirty deal that said secretary of labor and licensing. You're recognized thank you Mr this bill has been heard in this committee before so I respect for the committee's time I'll only say that the one thing has been done in the way of a man that has been engrossed into the bill is that we added the extra board position adding an additional of member from the of home inspectors board or organization group whoever's going to be appointed in order to expand their presence on the board and its chair there's nothing new to add to that let's the committee would like to ask Mister of the Senate any questions I'll defer to the chair. The questions from committee representative Bridgeman recognized. Thank you Mr this questions for the US secretary serve on the home inspector board to has Your amendment or your changes have that help the situation between you and and those guys at all. Love it I think they were looking for more representation on the new board we we acquiesced and and proposed a new an additional seat on the board even though proportionately based on the number of licenses that they have it took us a little is skewed the percentages but I I think we've accommodated that concern. Have you gotten any feedback from them as far as How the how they responded to your efforts. Yes I've gotten feedback but In the form of an email but I don't suit and. We do have an email of the committee wants to hear it I think the. Secretary feel hesitant to be the one to read it but. We do have an email that would represent the response represent your regimen in response to a question is that. That in the medical use. Of take a look at I will I will put it this way if if somebody down to in the table wants to share that with this that would be fine with me. Your verbal or print. Let's hear verbal. Thank you. The bill say it without me being able to see that let's do this. The representative Richmond and regret I know you asked a question we have a copy of that you have a copy that I paint your picture a would you give that to represent you Richmond you read that you think that's something the chair needs to look at before I approved the reading of that did you let me know. Let me know if that answers your question. A Mister I'll go ahead and add. I don't want to verbal. And the I don't think you would approve this. Okay that's by appreciate you Hamlin's that way thank you. Several any for any additional questions from committee members. Say none we have several people signed up to speak in regards to this bill so if you all would just make room at the end of the table. First on the Hello this may represent what you're you have a question for you. Okay Mr I think the committees heard from a lot of these people and I just wanna make sure that we're not re hearing from anyone that we heard from on the first day so is it do you need that in the form of a motion to request I would you like to have the. Well it had been a form of a motion I make a motion that we only hear from new testimony and not any redundant testimony that we heard in the first presentation of the bill. That is proper motion however the chair just time what I'm going to do is is each member comes to the end of the table I'll remind them if they testify before that not to repeat what we've already heard but I will give each one of an opportunity but I'm going to motion thank you. First on the agenda and signed up to speak against the bill is the wind Bender. Claim Bender room of brought into a very good job with that Sir and I apologize. Appear before this committee in regards to this bill yes I have okay what you heard the motion from representative Wardlaw and you are not responsible if if you already gave me the opportunity to say some things here today but it would be very percent you've already paid before the committee we would appreciate it thank you very much we'll do not be very brief. All right my name is way better plan on the president of the Arkansas association of real state inspectors the amendment to this what I'm against because it was not what we agreed to prior to the amendment being read here. The agreement was that they were moving appraiser and add elements specter nest not what happened they just added a home inspector so the port is still gonna be cumbersome having appraisers and home inspectors on scene board I still think it's not gonna work it's it's just going to cumbersome and lack of representation for home inspectors and the question I have is and this just I'm not expect an answer but some of the ponder is what if. The home inspector licensee's growing number then what are we gonna have to have an amendment to rectify the board percentage and I mean I don't know how long that takes but. That's just a question ponder and I liked him against this amendment and against the bill so I am. Questions from committee members. Seven nine thank you for your test thank you for being brave. Thank signed up to speak against the bill is Robert Neal. Have you testified that since the yes I have Mister all right you heard or read as the the the the previous question so I've asked you to answer any questions over the promotion of one kind of reiterate what you said we were understanding you're recognized just notify yourself you're recognized thank you Mr chairman thank you representatives I will keep this as brief as possible as mentioned by the previous Speaker and as mentioned last week during previous hearings the amount of representation is still disproportionate it skewed away from the favor the home inspectors in the into the paper the appraisers even with The Amendment. I'd like to point out that there is a way to do it ministrations combining without combining the boards and removing representation and that's already occurring and and one of these boards such as that factors board I think it's been previously testified that there is a vacant position that is being filled by the administrative staff of the office in the Arkansas department of labor licensing and getting rid of that duplicate is a staff member or that position is something that would be efficient however whenever you administratively combined boards but then we combine their staff and then remove subject matter experts from the boards that are volunteers unpaid volunteer members that does not increase efficiency and so with that I'll be very brief and I'll leave it with that other than I'm not aware of fully aware of any communications you might have if there's been a negative communication I just ask that you view us as individuals and keep in mind that there sometimes a bad apple in the bunch and please don't do us all in white or someone else is speaking. Thank you for those comments any questions from committee members. Saying none thanks so we appreciated thank you. Signed up to speak against the bill is Dan Smith. The all issues and questions have. Having given testimony before this committee regressions bill. No Sir I have not okay we'll be recognize notify you set up for the committee you're recognized to speak against the bill okay Mott hi I am the complaint investigator for the a home inspector registration board I have never served on the board I've been in this position for four years tend a lot of the board meetings not everyone. But I've always been very impressed with the dedication that this board has and they recognize that there there are to primarily protect the consumer and work diligently to improve the quality of the home inspectors in this state I think with consolidating the boards like that's been proposed is not going to work in favor of that. we have a a great complaint you'll process letters followed you know and we probably average of based on my records one complaint a month so it's been forty eight complaints over four years and in the vast majority of those complaints the home inspector has been of force to to obtain additional training. Of a been fined. so you know. Hey. An adequate home inspector is not tolerated in any form or fashion from this board the emphasis is on protecting the consumer. The questions from committee members. You saying none thank you for your testimony thank you appreciate you being here. Next on news signed up to speak go against the bill is Tom Allen. Shall if you would just devastate New York my questions to the other yes does have you testified before this committee before regards to this bill I have yeah sure so with that in mind would you if you've got some new information like share with us our emphasize something you told the committee before you're recognized do so thank you Tom Allen I. livet Floyd Arkansas the large metropolis with two churches in a quick stop I'm a home inspector been home inspector for fifty one years. I'd like to. Give you a brief rundown on how all this started. Ninety three ninety five ninety seven the realtors tried to organize home inspectors their intent was to place the regulation of home inspectors The New to real estate commission your predecessors recognized the need for an independent home inspector force within the state and rejected that so the current law that we're operating under came about somewhere in the not nineteen ninety seven has very little tweaking that has been done to it since the. Inspect home inspectors at that time were viewed as a problem for closing real estate at that time. Realtors both the listing in the selling realtor represented the seller of the property the buyer was on his own it was a. A situation of buyer beware with home inspections coming about we moved into an error that has developed into disclosure. That's where we are now and the importance of home inspectors in the state protects the buying public from physical data injury and financial injury throughout the the process of buying a house is. In dealing with this amendment hi speed pretty much an entire day between directly dealing with the secretary of labor and the leadership both at the board level and the state association level trying to work out something on this. The Secretary I had agreed that I would try and gain the cooperation of the inspectors across the state by taking away one of the. Positions from the appraisal board and giving it to the home inspectors which would have kept the total board members at ten and would have allowed us to have some equity position on the on the board that's not what happened about three forty five that afternoon he came back with an eleven member board in additional home inspector that may seem like a pretty silly thing to be arguing about however the impact of it on the home inspectors was pretty significant and the the state association and the board both rejected that offer so that's where we we got to that afternoon. The important thing that I want to talk about with you is what happened after we rejected that bill I got the Email from Mister Parker the staff attorney wanting to confirm our rejection of the terms offered to us and the first there are three of those terms if he wanted to verify with may the first one was a number of home inspectors on the new board would be raised from two to three it didn't say a thing about adding that additional position bringing it to eleven. So that was the primary objection we had under so she aided comments in that email. Dealt with. The. Department of labor pushing forward with the home inspector board to initiate The fund that would study the couldn't concerning why we did not have an increasing number of new applicants for home inspectors. That's a hundred and eighty degrees from the actual problem that we deal with we have plenty of people that are applying and receiving licenses in the state for what before becoming home inspectors the problem that we're wanting to study is called the revolving door problem our numbers remained relatively constant however within the cadre of home inspectors we keep moving people out filled with new people coming in the problem with that is is that the public is being subjected to I have a large number of people that don't have amount of experience or training necessary to perform this job so the numbers look more like one thing the performance looks like another there the other. Question that was brought up ask of us to verify was the fact that. Apparently the secretary of the the attorney thought that the secretary and I discussed something about breaking down barriers for people trying to enter into the home inspection profession. It can be anything further from the truth We don't who. We I don't know when we've ever turned down a license for anything I had a really pretty snide comment here I was going to use but unfortunately the email that was put out this morning by one of our road inspectors it's kind of taken the. It's a very embarrassing thing for all of us to deal with it with Paula judge to the committee and to the secretary and his staff for what happened there but the the problem is we don't have barriers the secretary and I did not speak about barriers at all but yet the attorney for the Secretary thanks that there are those two things hindrances in becoming a license in the state there is no hindrance in becoming licensed in the state at all. We have been harsh in our representation of the. Secretary labor and his staff. Our daily business that doesn't allow us not to discuss the elephant in the room and that's what we have. That's what we do at the end of every inspection we'd like to tell you that your house is in perfect condition and that there's nothing wrong with it we've got about fifteen minutes at the end of that inspection to shed some reality what you are looking at is a home the same thing applies here when we're talking to you we have not had good service from the secretary of labor we have been pushed around we've been night opportunity to address the the this bill bill three fifty four L. consolidating this board they are administration or the board of would be. Quite open to consolidation of administrative staff maintaining the integrity of the licensing board and the people that have the the background and education to adjudicate these cases is vitally important to you as a home buyer your children and your grandchildren. I don't know what's about to happen here in this committee I just know that the conflict that has been going on between the Secretary labor in this board has been excruciating FOR both sides I would appreciate a no vote. On this bill and it's amendment and let us start over again and see if we can't work something through that works amiable for both the any questions from committee members. Seven nine thank you for testimony thank you. Signed up to speak for the bill is Sarah Stevens. The statements have you testified before the board before this committee before in this bill. Okay we will definitely be agenda today I want to give everybody an opportunity so but we uh be mindful that to some other people to speak and the emphasize what you need to address this committee where they and I appreciate you being respectful of that thank you Mr chair members of the committee good morning I'm Sarah Stevens an Arkansas certified general appraiser in addition to my appraisal committee of credential with the state of Arkansas also hold designations from the appraisal institute the international right of way association and the counselors of real estate I was appointed to the appraiser licensing and certification board and twenty twenty by then governor Hutchison and I'm currently serving as the chair of the board I'm here today to speak in favor of this bill also want you to know that every member of the Arkansas appraiser licensing and certification board voted in favor of this bill at our last meeting we see only opportunity in the passage of this bill members of the appraiser licensing board or charged with practicing in protecting the public interest regulation examination and licensing of Arkansas real estate appraisers and the registration of appraisal management companies we approve and monitor pre licensing and certification education experience and testing as well as approved and monitored continuing qualifying education for real estate appraisers we do not see that mission changing I believe that the same processes we will cut we use will continue with the passage of this legislation further all of the agencies named in Senate bill three fifty four our real estate related we are charged to protect the public trust there is no conflict of interest in our mind in consolidating and and. Unifying into one board appraisers perform valuation services. By S. statement or definition a home inspector is a person who and in current I'm sorry engages in the business of performing home inspections for compensation and who in the pursuit of that business offers to inspect our inspects the condition of a private residence ABSTRACTERS' research and examine the title to real property the duties of appraisers ABSTRACTERS' and home inspectors are perform independently. Each one has a different scope of practice and we contend that there is no conflict of interest with regard to the the professional services that we perform. The we maintain a process of licensing and regulation that is in compliance with federal guidelines and results in license holders that have verified adequate education experience and a demonstrated competency to provide quality services with their credentials the Arkansas president licensing of certification board also investigates complaints against real estate appraisers and real estate management companies again we see continued opportunity to provide like services to the two boards that will join us with the passage of this bill of this bill. Our director and staff provide outstanding services to our membership that isn't going to change with the passage of this bill we believe that members of the newly created board will see increased services and efficiencies with the passage of the bill I see this bill as an opportunity to increase services provide efficient delivery of services and enhance opportunities not only to appraisers but home and spread specter's an ABSTRACTERS' I urge you to vote in favor of this bill thank you for any questions from committee members. Seeing none. Signed up to speak for the bill is Kelly black. But I could be testify before this committee before regards this bill that's our. I want to give you as much time as I can but we have a a big agenda this morning as I'm telling each perception and the table and want to be respectful for that I want to give you the opportunity but please be considerate of the fact that we've got a room full of people a lot of people have a lot to say so be as brave as you can and but make your point I appreciate it very much so does the committee yes Sir thank you chairman and committee members thank you for listening to me today alone speak with you. I am very grateful to deal and the secretary was set for the opportunity to do what I do and be the director that I am I am the director of the board of registration for professional geologists that has four hundred and fifty one licensees and the auctioneers licensing board with seven hundred and twenty eight licensees their meetings Bills deposits applications in emails all that need my attention on any given day. There is one required weekly meeting with the secretary and all of the directors at eleven AM on Thursdays that meeting typically does not last longer than an hour it is never interfered with or put put me behind on any other duties we provide excellent customer service are licensees in the public with the resources provided by the department our department fosters a positive work environment that helps employees stay committed to high performance and I'm proud to be part of the DLL team thank you. For you I appreciate that any questions from committee members seven nine thank you so much thank you. Signed up to speak up for the bill is. Shena Brien is that run this Bryant. Right to be testify before this committee before regards this bill no Sir okay you've heard by the instructions to the the paper then stable and I would appreciate it but I do want you to be able to have the opportunity to say what you feel like you need safe to the committee okay yes Sir all right you're recognized thank you so much. Good morning my name is Serena Bryant I am the executive director of the Arkansas state board of architects landscape architects and interior designers a division of the department of labor licensing the board became a military profession regulatory agency in two thousand and nine. Before two thousand and nine each professions Board have been in existence for many years the mission of the Arkansas state board of architects landscape architects and interior designers remains the same as when they were individually established that is to protect the health safety and welfare of the citizens of Arkansas. We current currently have two thousand nine hundred and fifteen licensees we have one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven architects two hundred and twenty landscape architects and sixty two interior designers five hundred and ninety nine architectural firms and thirty seven emeritus architects and landscape architects. We are a nine member board with five architects one landscape architect one interior designer into public member positions we are a cohesive group with each member respect and the other others profession and opinions. The board staff consist of me in my administrative assistant together we perform all administrative duties of the Board. That is ensuring that does represent themselves as architects landscape architects in and read registered interior designers in our state meet the standards of competency by the way of education experience and examination and enforcing the laws and regulations put in place by the governing body in a fair expeditious and uniform manner. As a division of the department of labor licensing the board has continued its commitment to provide excellent customer service to all of our licensees and members of the public as the director I have maintained the standards set forth by the department of labor licensing with their assistance and accessibility of the executive team I T. legal and finance departments I am empowered to perform my job effectively and efficiently thank you. Thank you any questions from committee members. Say none thank you for being here today. Representative you have a motion I have a motion to me committee consideration. Representatives point. Representative gene. This point does not a proper motion a proper motion would be to in the debate at this point. I have a motion in the base that is a proper motion is non debatable all in favor say aye. All opposed say no the ayes have it to debate is ended. Dramma recognise go back to the table. For closing Mr. The PMR as close with these below but some got that should be ecstatic. Okay there's a lot of excited people in this room is. To your bill. I'll be very brief you've heard probation for kanji for positive you've heard negative your her does that have to deal with numbers greater them what the home inspector boards have to deal with and and there's a lot more that could be said I'm just going to go on the on the basis that I think that this ultimately will be a positive move and it is a move that we are taking in other areas and so I see no reason not to continue the trend knowing that your person positive things said about some other boards that are willing to work in order to make it better for the citizens of Arkansas and I think at the end of the day this be good for the citizens of Arkansas and I would appreciate a good vote Mister chairman. Senator Hammer is close with the bill. I have a motion from the Committee. I have a motion representative Gonzalez do pass any discussion on the motion. Representative crap you're recognized for discussion on the motion thank you Mr chair. Interesting day in politics we heard today some who were for this. before when we heard it everyone was against it. But and last time wrong and you're welcome to correct me. The ones that we heard that were for this actually. Were attached to the State somehow into the department's. Am I correct in that. Can asset class no ma'am you can you're just thinking all right all the way out that being the case with what I heard and I here that'll be good for the citizens but yet then when when I hear those who oppose a state will not be good for The Simpsons so at this time I cannot be a yes vote because. I am not convinced thank you. Representative Bradford has spoken on the motion anyone else. The election take on the motion. Okay no Other comments on the motion all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Yeah I was able to bills passed. Thank you Mr chairman committee appreciate it thank you Mr in committee. Without objection the next item on today's agenda we're going here house bill sixteen twenty six representative eleven. Representative beverage would justify a subcommittee you're recognized to present your bill. Our office. Thank you Mr chair thank you committee for the flexibility in the agendas today. state representative Brian Evanston District sixty eight. Ready to present Mr. You're recognized thank you Sir members a committee in nineteen eighty seven ACT nineteen eighty seven was passed which created the fidelity bond program for cities counties state agencies K. through twelve education and higher it. The program eliminated the need for each of these individual entities to purchase certi bonds. And the exemption from needing certi bond programs and coverages was explicit in the language of the act. The program protected each of these entities by providing a manage pool where they all contributed into the resources that paid for coverage coverage amounts out to them should they be a target of internal theft or fraud. Strictly by error in act three sixty seven of the twenty one session the A. I. D.'s omnibus bill mistakenly struck this exemption from each of these entities to purchase these bonds. The purpose of this bill is simply a correction of that language to reinstate this exemption is needed to ensure that each entity does not have double coverage it adds a single paragraph to code to basically say that all government entities participating in the self insured fidelity bond program is considered to have satisfied any other statutorily required bond requirements and take us back to where we stood before the two thousand twenty one ACT mistakenly took that exemption away this is an agreed upon bill has the approval of the Arkansas insurance department Arkansas legislative audit and be happy to try to answer any questions questions from committee members. Seeing none the one signed up to speak for against the bill representative you're recognized close we bill thank you Mr chairman members I'm close would appreciate a motion to pass a good vote. Representative eleven as close with bill vice chair macro admitted motion do pass in the discussion on the motion. Say none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Does having graduation bills passed thank you Mr thank you committee again on today's agenda is B. house bill fourteen oh seven representative Cllr you're in the room yes Sir if you have stated in the table. I believe this is to concur and Senate Amendment. And the have to is that correct. After members to concur with representative curfew would identify yourself as median you're at well recognized to present your amendments thank you Sir representative written for district twenty nine you're correct Mister chair this is a simple amendment this is the bill that we passed out of the house it's been passed in the Senate all they did was take a good bill make it better by a rewarding one sentence on the second page about voter registration and voter had the opportunity to return it the application themselves that's all it didn't change anything it made it easier to read. Any questions from committee members on a member number one to House Bill Fortino seven. Seeing none. I'm close for bills or are the amendment because we amendment have a motion to adopt all in favor say aye. All opposed say no if the option is covered concur which Senate Amendment that you're recognized in Amendment number two to fourteen oh seven. You're recognized to. I have help coming. Sir I have help coming to explain okay. Step by step to committee and you're recognized to President Amendment number two. Hi Leslie Bellamy on director of elections for the Secretary of State. You're recognized. Sources we pass this bill before there's not a second amendment that we show here. But I have to before the chair. Let me check with staff this information. Okay. Our apologies Sir could we get a copy of that amendment. Thank you. Okay I have the amendment now the. To representative Tosh so The Amendment yes Sir Amendment number two to House Bill fortinos seven we look the same one yes okay you're recognized to present it's just changing the part on the citizenship where we would be able to verify citizenship that we could utilize our program basically if one become available and. Right now we would be establish and implement that system with this amendment. Any questions from committee members. J. none pepcid clear you're recognized close we are close for the second amendment yeah I have them and I have a motion to adopt. Motion to adopt from representative macrophages Goshen on the motion to adopt. Say none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no motion is adopted as good cars with the Senate amendment thank you Mr chair sorry for the inconvenience thank you Committee. House bill house bill fifty fifteen ninety five represent you rare you have. Moving on to House Bill fifteen ninety three representative long. Senate bill sixty two senator hill Here. Okay. Hi yeah. I would know new. All right you're recognized that Senate bill sixty two. Both. That was not ready. Well that was not ready. That was not ready no Sir okay but we have to that already. It's all right give me just a second I thought I went over that with the staff. Sixteen forty two. Committee without objection sensitive represent Wardlaw judging of the table will move to House bills sixteen forty two the correct that's good okay yes Sir and I wonder if you're recognized. House bill sixty thank you Mr Jeff Wardlaw district ninety four house bill sixteen of forty two is represented Maddox asked me to run he couldn't leave of insurance commerce it's kind of a common sense bill we we get a lot of grants from the federal government for mammogram vans different type of health care procedure test type vans and right now because those vans are not classified are not big enough to be classified as commercial vehicles they count against us in our fleet at UAMS and that's bad because you mess already sends folks all over the state and has a lot of vehicles and they're at their limit so what this bill does that excludes those test bans and does grant bands from federal government outside of that limit so they could they could have his many of these as is needed are is paid for by the federal government I think there's too approved right now that are going to be new and they put us at that Max and that's why we're here today so with that Mr I'd be happy to answer any questions and I appreciate a good vote any questions from committee members. Say no no one signed up to speak for against the bill represent you recognize close we bill my closure is just a motion do pass much better Senator laws made a motion to pass any discussion on the motion. Playing none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no does having regulation bills password in the table you want to go ahead present seventeen thirty five Mr. House bill seventeen thirty five house bill seventeen thirty five Committee. No need to identify yourself again you're recognized to present your bill thank you Mr chair house bill seventeen thirty five to me is just an efficiency bill when we re done procurement a few years ago I was a chair to rid of the review subcommittee we went through a big study we kinda tied the hands of the director in this place and and it's proven now that we probably need to untie those hands and allow him to negotiate with these folks to get a better price and it's mostly for small purchases so it allows them to to negotiate so it's just a physician's bill and directors here with me today at Armstrong answer any questions but I think it's pretty simple. Any questions from committee members representing make sure recognized for quite thank you Mr out by think I'm good with this I'm just can you buy better define it says may enter into a non mandatory state contracting you better define what a nonmandatory State contract is worse is a mandatory yes Sir a nonmandatory contract as it sounds like is one that a state agency or in the language of this bill any public procurement entities so city or county could use but they don't have to we are not compelling them to buy office contract it would just allow them to get a government rate if they buy off of it. In in represent makes is that I said is just an efficiency standpoint in a and as our good friend Charlie Collins say another tool in the toolbox. Follow up. Just allow us to get a volume pricing on items verses the city's going out making doing as individually yes Sir all right perfect thank you. The questions from committee members. Say none no one signed up to speak for against the bill represents Wardlaw recognized because we bill again Mister chairman that create a good vote my clothes are to be a motion do pass I have a motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Saying none all in favor say aye All opposed say no the ayes seven graduation bills passed thank you Mister committee and we will have Senate bill sixty two ready by the next meeting okay. Are there any legislators here that's here to run a bill that has gas from out of town. From out of town representative wing any other. Legislators You got people from out of town. Okay. The election committee we're going to go ahead Senator we've got some folks from out of town here speak up for against somebody's bills will be able to accommodate them the best we can we have a long agenda so next we're going to hear from a representative winning. The house bill thirteen oh two committee members house bill thirteen oh two. Representive wing Committee members I think we have several people just give you a heads up that signed up to speak For and against this bill so representative when you're recognized to present your bill I thank you Mr chair I think we have an amendment. just brought to my attention we have an amendment let me hand it out to the committee members. When you're recognized to present your amendment thank you Mr chair thank you committee of what this amendment does is has a few names as co sponsors of the bill hope you like those names and also what it does is it adds a re authorization clause so that this is an affected just for this term it would have to be re authorized by the next legislative assembly and so this gives us an opportunity to take a look at what happens in a short term period and does not obligate anything for long term that'll come in in the presentation of the bill here in a few moments I appreciate a good vote on the amendment. Any questions from committee members on the amendment. Saying nine you're recognized clothes when you're members. I'm close for the member I believe we have a motion representative makes to adopt the amendment any discussion on the motion. Say none all in favor to adopt the amendment say aye. All opposed say no the member of the. And management of the option that you're recognized present your bill as amended thank you Mr chairman all right so what we have before us is house bill thirteen no to what this is is a representation of about a year's worth of work directly however this issue has been going on for a few years About a year ago we started a monthly meeting with first responders and military to discuss the needs regarding mental health and the unique situations that are increasing in this generation each year with double digit increases of the needs to To to address this issue for our first responders in our military no this bill just handles first responders but our military has also been involved in these meetings we've held these meetings monthly and most of what is in this bill comes exactly from what we are hearing from the people who are protecting us the people who put their lives on the line and on a daily basis and meet us during sometimes our most trying moments statistics show that the average person has a severe traumatic event one and a half times in their lifetime. The same statistics also show that our first responders have eight hundred traumatic events in the course of their career and what we're seeing is a devastating effect on those who protect us most Mister chair with your permission I'd like to invite a few guest up to the table the help us share some insights as well are these paper others Gibson signed up to speak up for the bill against the bill I'm sure not I don't think they have signed up there they're here to help me present the bill okay what was given to the table and will recognized in a dental time in which I come off our list here to Before the bill all right. The green buttons there. Check check them all. Representative when just travelling Sturch I guess we won't turn them inside themselves and we'll check a month earlier okay we'll start right here and around the home. Henry Moore I'm the state fraternal order police wellness liaison to the national for return or police I'm also a retired reserve marine thirty years one month nine days. My name is Matthew Stallings I am political director of the Arkansas professional firefighters and we represent twenty eight fire departments across the state sixteen hundred members and their families. I'm Travis Browning I'm the founder director of heroes behind a lot of nonprofit the deals with the Arkansas first responders mental health also a police officer firefighter and EMT and honorably discharged from the United States Army. kids local with I'm here with heroes behind the line I have twenty three years in law enforcement and two states. Thank you basically what this bill does is it provides care mental care for our first responders up to twelve visits. and then that care is also specifically geared for the specific types of trauma and crises that our first responders to deal with we've also had a reporting requirement in this bill what we want to do is gather data not names but just numbers of data to see how this is being used so that we can measure its effectiveness and then as I mentioned before with the amendment this is a two year. Period and so it's this has to be re authorized to continue and so this the the data that we gather will help us with the direction of what to do moving forward in the future. We are open for questions unless if any of you have something that you would like to say here at the beginning. Well I would like to say. You know couple years ago probably twenty fifteen they had the the twenty first century policing model toward first senate please model has six pillars the six pillars offer wellness and safety and so taking that that has sparked our our our wellness units it is part or peer support teams it was it helped update sixteen forty one oh six which is the privilege communication with peer support teams and I can tell you throughout the state those those teams in those units are are doing amazing jobs for all first responders. I think it's Important that we appoint a few statistics on the front and the general public is at a risk of thirteen and one hundred thousand and people to to commit suicide firefighters and police officers respectively or eighteen seventeen out of a hundred thousand that's a thirty percent increase for police officers thirty eight percent increase firefighters we lose more firefighters and police officers every year to suicide then we do injury sustained in the line of duty and that's that's what we're here for we're here to try to prevent that we're here to get in on the front end to which reduce the stigma around mental health and reduce the stigma around talking about mental health. And help people get the mental health care that they need because we at the end of the day the acceptable number of suicides for first responders is zero And it it's it's not just suicides although that that number is probably lower than what it actually is the firefighter behavioral health alliance estimates that that number's forty percent under reported we don't do a good job of collecting occupational that and we don't really do a great job of sharing data either so more than likely you're looking at higher numbers than what I just shared but apart from that in Arkansas study done here found that we are at a. Twenty six percent of first responders meet the criteria for PTSD fourteen percent for depression twenty eight percent for anxiety ninety three percent for sleep disturbances sleep disturbances put you at a greater risk for just about every single health problem that there is twenty percent for hazardous drinking eleven percent for alcohol dependence and thirty four percent at high risk for suicidality. So I just I wanted to bring those statistics up here with me before we get started. To the house. Mister chair and committee thank you all for this time just something to add to this as well as not that any other organization or previous legislation has been passed for peer support and mental health is bad we just want to add other options to be able to give our Arkansas first responders the the biggest chance of of getting through what they're going through without going into too much detail due to HIPAA laws and things of that nature first responded reach out for for help recently and were were process through the peer support programs to C. I. S. M. C. I. T. and and and similar acronyms that we could talk about but unfortunately later that night as they were waiting to go to a furtherance of mental health professionals they attempted to commit suicide that night so not that these other things aren't greatly effective in some cases some cases they might need this further aides and that's all that we're asking is to give them that opportunity thank you. One of the things that is comment was with this bill it's with first responders it's about trust and culturally competent providers and all you know that the A. P. thing will probably brought up all EA peas are not the same most EA peas do not have trauma therapy providers on staff and so this creates another touch point to keep a healthier first responder organization. So. I'd like to Just a little bit about What happened to me in the span of six months and ultimately ended own must birthday in August of twenty sixteen was involved in an officer involved shooting Within a week after my return to duty I was responding to an emergency call and Was hit by a drunk driver and trapped in a car that I was trying to call the column five. Of several months later in February of twenty seventeen my son's birthday I was involved in a second. Officer involved shooting these accidents happen in a very very short amount of time and not only do they affect the officer but they affect officers family and the way the officer deals with the public in general. Kind of piggybacking off the statistic there was a study done of almost four hundred police officers in buffalo New York. The officers were requested to respond to a survey used by the department of veteran affairs for diagnosis of PTSD. The survey listado the PCO revealed that of the nine types of events officers reported witnessing a total of four point four in the past year was sixty percent of men and forty six percent of women five or more different types of events on average a majority of male eighty two percent and female officer seventy six percent reported experience traumatic event in the past month. Most people do not witnesses number program has spent a lifetime. Committee members for the gentleman whether to into the table representative Richard you're recognized. Thank you Mr. Seven hundred Max our good I believe it's working now Mr and thank you Mr certified double dog. representative wing I I read in your bill we're or the the employer is individual pay for this in the employee gets to pick. Where they go who they go to which shrink they're actually going to use to do this. Do you have any idea what twelve sessions my cost. On the copay basis about twenty Bucks a pop. Thank you. And I should also want to add that this is completely optional for the first responder there is the the mandate is on the one player to provide is completely optional for the first responder we're just making it available this is something that are first responder community has asked for. The court represent region recognized just quick follow up do we have any idea what the cold pay cost is going to be not copay but the the actual costs to the to the employer. Will be a be a maximum bid on the copays would be a maximum of two hundred forty dollars on average if it's twenty dollars per copay that would that would be the total copay because it works within the existing insurance that the first responder has okay thank you. Further questions from committee members. Say none genom appreciates testimony. Page way unless you have been issued this time a more a recognized poker here signed up to speak against the bill I think let's respect the time of this committee will go straight to that portion. Scott Bailey the director of the sheriff's association. Sure if you would have saved in the table and This bill by yourself the Committee and you're recognized maybe testimony. Then you're speaking against the bill I am thank you Mr chair Scott Bradley on the Director of the Arkansas share so she ation in a. Four be clear that we understand that our folks need to have access to mental health treatment when it is necessary which is I think we feel like this bill is just too much last session we worked really hard with several representatives and a. I know representative Tosh you were involved in those conversations last session and we work hard to come up with a bill that that met our needs and Matt are our people's deeds it's a house bill sixteen eighty from last session our. It defines a critical incident. It also talks about the peer support groups that come in and speak to our. In our case deputies and shares that are involved in a critical instant unfortunately we are involved in a lot of critical incidents day. And if you read in the bill it talks about About seeing dead bodies in the different things if you read it and it's not by Bob exactly what it says but that's what it insinuates. And unfortunately that's part of our job we have to do it every day every day and any time there's a creek and and it it almost makes this bill makes it almost too much the it's too much lease it to wide open to many things will be going every day we have to send our C. ID folks every day would be without help so what we would like what we're doing with this been this last bill we would have peers come in and speak with them who have been trying to evaluate whether they need assistance or not and sit and talk to them and in that we the they set down a speak with them they decide if they need help or not and then they report back to the sheriff or the chief. The share for chief certainly care about the people the president about it needs to make that evaluation and take the faction understands what's going on more it should be this year for the chief to seek them help get them help and get them in from the right people and and this this program the bill we passed last session is definitely working for us now I was asked for some numbers of how many business we've had now it's working but we don't when I called the peer support group they don't do that because it's for your bill and it puts people's names out there which is another problem we have with this bill it needs to be private. You know I think what we have works very very well it's not and and with all due respect with with representative when we've asked to be taking taken off this bill and let us continue with what we're doing because it's working for us and we're still on the bill so that's the reason we're at the end of the table there's also another bill that was run last session in income in accordance and it was house bill twelve oh four in that talks about and I know representative Tosh you'll be where where this because you're you're one of the the sponsors and that concerning the privileged communications between the certified peer support member an emergency responder and basically what that does you can do some research and look at it keeps it private or it can't be drug into court when an officer is up there trying to testify to be I don't want to use or humiliated but to be looked upon less than what they are so I think what we have is very good in I it works for us I see no need for us to muddy the waters the fire departments feel like they need this bill about means I think they should have it but for us and the surest Reebok would so we would like to stay with what we're doing we feel like it's working. Thank you. Mister chair committee on your side so represent the Arkansas Association of Chiefs of Police it's very difficult for me to be here to to be opposed to the bill because I was a police officer in chief for many years and seen dramatic events almost on a daily basis I appreciate the intent here and we have talked representive wing he is amended it somewhat but was still on Lync it's it's clear enough of as far as the mandates go so not to repeat what sheriff Bradley just stab the the polling the chiefs association they are all very concerned about the bill. The questions from committee members to make sure recognized. Thank you Mr chairman obviously I understand your concern for your your guys and ladies that do this as much as we are that so the the question that I have is you you already do the peer support group how often do any of your officers need that individualized help afterwards and assuming that that trend were to continue under this what do you think would be the cost burden to the various groups at the I'm assuming that may be where the the most heartburn is with us. I don't I don't think cost is as much. As it is manpower the loss of manpower and the frequency that they would have to go I understand it's up to them if they want to go or not it's the way it is now we we speak with a rally waited in their kind of been evaluate what's good about our program the programmer using anyway is its peers it's people who have experienced the same thing that they're going through the story that I heard earlier was it it's super unfortunate that the peer group was working with them and I ended up trying to you know the consist are I don't think anything's going to stop that I don't think anything's going to change that outcome I mean that person's going to do whatever they want to do you're doing your best to get on treatment as fast as you can to answer your question I tried to get those numbers on the frequency is being used in House working but they don't keep those they don't keep those for a reason they don't keep those so they can be for you board and they can be used I just think it needs to be up to the chief or the sheriff and I there's no one that cares more about the people than than them and I think they retire and dislike the chief city right of talk to my board my shares and they they really like the way it is now. Representative Scott you're recognized for a question. Representative Mary you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman and sure so my colleagues and I were just discussing Let's say you have an officers that the seeks mental health counseling. And that officers die has a diagnosis of PTSD anxiety depression when he goes returns to service. and then you have as an officer involved shooting in with that that officer. Does that put the agency at risk because he has a diagnosis of of mental health treatment. Then the that's a good question thank you that it the always the agency has to take care of the the officer in as I can speak as the chief that we we always make sure that the officer was okay to come back to work he was cleared to come back to duty by a professional counselor it's again the chase on the jurors all care about the people that are working for them I mean not only because they do care it's it's liability issue for the the CEO of the department we've got to be sure that the officers are able to come back. Follow up Mr you're recognized so you know we see is a lot if it well the state concealed carry handgun license or they've used get mental health treatment or whatever than that kind of you know the you lose the ability to be able to. If you have a diagnosis to have a concealed carry permit and I know like in the military for example if you had a diagnosis of of of mental health. Treatment then that you run the risk of not being able to carry a weapon which you run the risk of that being discharge from the military so in the law enforcement community colleges still have the same type of concerns. Absolutely I mean it's going to depend on the severity of the injury and what the the diagnosis is obviously for sure for chief doesn't feel comfortable with putting that person back on the road or back to work they're not gonna do that they can't they're not going to take that liability but even if they do decide to come back to work they still have to have the clearance from the doctor in one last quick one question you're recognized so if that individual that law enforcement officer or first responder if he goes to the a mental health professional and he does it on his own and we see it all the time in the military we do not divulge that interaction with a mental health professional because it has an impact on my career it that would be much better for the law enforcement community if it was left up between the sheriff or the chiefs of police and individual to whether or not they go seek mental health treatment is that correct that is correct that's absolutely true thank you Mr chairman thank. Representative Clowney you're recognized thank you Mr chair and and I appreciate that line of questioning I guess I'm caught on the premise I don't agree with the premise this bill makes that counseling mandatory the way that I'm reading this and I'm sorry to get Judiciary Committee on us but from the way that I'm reading this is that an employer under this bill an employer has to cover licensed counseling for an employee who wants it not that they have to provide coverage or counseling so I guess can you clarify for me where the fear of this sort of bleeding you know manpower is coming from. I thank can I thank the problem is it just kind of muddies the waters so what are we supposed to do do we keep doing what we're doing or do we switch over and make everyone go for every incident that a they come in contact with which is day I thin I'm not an attorney obviously I but reading it and it paid peers like it's it's mandatory I mean that's that's the way it appears to me. Follows can you show me. What line you saying makes it mandatory I'm just I I really want to understand your argument and I'm not I am an attorney and I'm not saying language here that supports that reading well that it does it say is mandated that that the agency will hi and in the one of the concerns is that that's going to be term that it's mandatory for. The officer to seek the counseling and and we've talked to representative wing and asked if we could set down and and maybe ward a little differently and come to an agreement but the concern is the word mandatory or mandated in the in the I think it's on page three. Of but that that is. Just for who pays for the mental health evaluations. What follows Mr okay. The thank you there isn't a word mandatory mandated it's it doesn't shall but it says the shall provide coverage for counseling it doesn't say shall provide the counseling or shall some mandate counseling or shall make somebody receive counseling so I just want to be clear that that is what the language has mandate doesn't appear would you agree. Yes. Representative Scott you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman so I was a part of the working group with representatives wing and all these first responders and it was really eye opening to hear about just the situations that our first responders are dealing with as someone who's not on the front line and don't work in these lines of feels it really I just felt like we should be doing more for these individuals and I was thankful for the opportunity to work in this group but I'm wondering what your group invited where the sheriff's not invited to work with us because we heard from so many different groups for over a year and and I'm just wondering if you are able to provide us any insight I think I saw sheriff there once maybe. I sat beside me at lunch so I'm just wondering did they not provide that feedback this bill has been out there for a long time because we knew there were going to be issues with it we wanted to get people's feedback so that we can get the best thing presented to the committee to help these individuals who were literally begging us for a year to do something for the people who won the first line so I'm just wondering where the gap was any operatives a painting with everybody else who was at the table with this. Providing feedback I did a representative when did tell me that you'll have to a meeting or had been meeting over year and that was the first I heard about it when I talk to him on the first the first occasion so we had no idea that there was a committee we would love to have been involved in that in if there was a chief involved in that committee I have no idea we heard no feedback whatsoever that would have been a great great help if we had an all out. Basically the same for the sheriff's department there was a sheriff that was there I wasn't aware of it and I didn't receive an invitation if I had received an invitation I would have said the same things I'm saying today. Representative Becky recognized for a question. Thank you Mr. I'm listen to the discussion on both sides and just trying to get some to clear this and it seems like these two programs are the the perfect pairing right if the if there was a situation and I. maybe I would be uncomfortable talking to one of my partners or something like that within or to I want to go out to counseling. Services with someone else or something like that so maybe that would be easier in one case and and maybe another case a person I love you more couple talk with someone within the department and that would work and then that person might say well you know maybe you should talk to this other group it just seems like it's a great. It's it's seems like it's adding to the resources not it's I don't see the mandate part of it either but but it just seems like it's adding to the copy what we heard earlier it's just putting another tool in the toolbox it seems like to me that in could you address that as of why you think it's not just these two working together. Again I'll say like I said the beginning I feel like what we have is working and I think it's important that the shares in the chiefs have the ability to see and who they need to stand when they need to see them it is important that they receive that treatment and the ones that want it are receiving it if they ask for even if they don't ask for it see where these peer groups are talking to on their value waiting on what they're missing with them again this is someone who's been through a traumatic event there sales and has went and receive training on the one the on what to look for so they'll meet with them talk with them sometimes they are made with the whole group and disk it's better that way and evaluate them and decide whether they need more if they need more they're going to tell the share for the chief they need more help. Sometimes you have your share your deputies are your are your officers come to you asking for help obviously in that situation will make sure they get it. So we believe what we have is working I mean. I just I don't know we're happy with what we're doing and we just feel like this is more than we need you know what if you in a small apartment have five of your whole group goes to the scene and they also witnessed something that's pretty crazy he also in the mall and a small department. They're gone for we have nobody. We're going to make sure the ones get treatment get treatment and we manage that part of it with so we can may I think it's important that the chief and the sheriff have the say so. Representative Gazaway you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman. it appears to me and I talk to the sponsor briefly about this bill before it was presented today at any of the shares for pose but. Here's to me I mean I think the sponsors motives are pure and what he's trying to do here and I certainly agree with the intent but you guys have raised some legitimate concerns is there not some way that you guys can get together and work out a compromise and some agreement that we can go forward with this I mean this seems like to me something that can be worked out but. And I'm just throwing that out there yes Sir with the very much willing to sit down with representative wink if OP or or anyone else like said earlier we would like to have been involved in the the committee and again it's very difficult for both of us to sit here because we're within a law enforcement for a very long time and but. I want to say something about the peer review this is for on duty incidents a dramatic event occurs on duty of the girl the the agency knows better what this officers going three sets it and I've been through this we've had peer counseling coming and we're we've had a big shoot out we were all in there is it works out really well when you start out at the peer level and if if if someone needs additional than certainly we sent in for the additional oil. The representative berry you're recognized. Thank you thank you Mr chairman I know you know from personal experience that in the military anyway and I'm sure is a lot like law enforcement correct me if I'm wrong but we prefer in a lot of the soldiers and airmen and by that dealt with over the years dealing with mental health has a strong potential to have an impact on the individual's career they like to have that those sessions with their mental health provider between them. and the provider. And that's all because you run the risk of ending a career if there's a diagnosis that may be go back to the agency then they may be forced to to in your career it is Act correct in the law enforcement community yes Sir it is correct and you know sometimes a share can take an individual act that a large specially a large department and find other jobs form to do in the department may be in the detention center may be something else there's options and and I think we can and it's a way for us to handle that without if they don't want to go receive the help sometimes I need help I don't want to go but you see that so you try to find a way to take care of your people without taking their career away from that's true yes Sir. Representative makes. Thank you Mr I saw just a follow up on something that that you'd said that the you know the police chiefs could send the The people that need help to proper counseling but without this would there be opportunity for the sheriff's this to say now we don't think you need it or not going to give it to you and deny these men and women counseling that they need simply because the sheriff just has a biased against it or you know use your imagination. The R. as a chief I have sent officers for an evaluation that they didn't want but. We thought that he needed it or she needed to do and what we sent out again you know I hate to bring in liability when we're talking about police officers livelihood and and and they're mental states but. Police chiefs and our our chiefs or sheriffs have to consider liability and that would be one tremendous liability but but you into the opposite of what my question was. My my my question was would a chief prohibit somebody who needs it from getting it well you told me an officer didn't want but was forced to get it I want to know is there gonna be cases in what those cases might be or share for deny treatment of an officer needed it requests that were really I did answer it because if he does not. The chief does not send that officer for requested help he is placed himself in a big liability. I think there's that I don't I can't imagine a situation where sheriff knows someone needs some help and and and and refuses them at I really can't imagine that situation I've. I just think that a. You know I think we worked really hard to get where we're at we have came a long ways last session we were and I was part of that group I got to be part of that group along with the representative Slape at the time former sheriff and set several others representative Richardson was in group in in in that conversation in that group we work very hard to come up with this program and have the privacy that we need and that's that was the reason the other bills filed by representative Tosh so we're very very happy with what we have talking to my shares in the board they understand the bill that's before us and and we're very opposed. Representative more you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair gentleman you say that you're mainly worried about manpower and the lost their of should this bill go into effect on page three lines twenty one and twenty two is is the coverage under subdivisions B. one shall allow for up to twelve licensed counseling visits one of these kids how long do you think these counseling visits will taken in your minds and and what is one or two or twelve visits how does that make a difference on your loss of manpower. I don't I don't think that's the main concern I did bring that up I don't think that's the main concern all obviously our main concern or our people that's our main concern I will try to answer your question. I think. I don't know how many the biz it's they need I mean that's up to the professional to decide I think what we're talking about is the initial the after the event the initial diagnosis by our peer group we really like that we think that's the most effective because who people feel comfortable talking to R. their peers I'm much more comfortable talking to another police officer about something that's happened because we're probably going to use terms that are not comfortable for the normal person if that makes sense but we can have those conversations and make an evaluator she can evaluated to see how much more help we need. I hope answers your question. The president to plan you're recognized question thank you Mr chair Sure probably can you just I just don't know enough about the program can you just help me understand exactly what that peer support groups like a particularly our does that include licensed mental health professionals that can diagnose things you just talked about a peer group diagnosis can they diagnose things like PTSD as a peer group. Let me see I think I may have the definition if I can find it here C.. A certified peer support member means an individual who has received appropriate training certified by the Arkansas crisis response team in the Arkansas Commission on law enforcement standards and training for the fire protection services board in a critical incident stress management who is qualified to provide emotional moral support an emergency responder who needs emotional or moral support as a result of job related stress. I'm not sure that that's what I have in front of me I think there is a further definition but they are trying professionals and they're all they're doing is it's because someone again they're comfortable sitting down and talking to and then they make the evaluation to the share for the chief on further treatment and that's only if the deputy or chief deputy officer doesn't ask for. Representative Gazaway you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman and. You just kind of occurred to me we're talking about mental health training permit not mental health treatment for law enforcement officers. having tried several cases over the years course defense attorneys will use anything they can to try to discredit a law enforcement officer when they're on the stand you know one of the things that gives me some concern is have to go to this training because of something that they've seen whether or not it it really impacted on severely enough to need the therapy or not you get that defense attorney on this or get that officer on the stand later in a defense attorney goes down a line of questioning about whether or not you had to be involved in mental health counseling and therapy and so on and so forth and really tries to undermine the credibility of an officer is that a concern for you guys. Yes Sir we've we've mentioned that many times of amongst ourselves amongst our membership and and with the representative wing that was one of our concerns and it'll be a representative we also told them that we would be very concerned about and also getting on the stand and and find out that he had or she is had counseling and they would just drill down on that and and the the jury's minds within the. Last I believe feel like that was the reason for house bill twelve oh four last session was to keep that officers medical records counted their self on that issue obviously if I have to actually go that's that you probably have to you know we probably had would say that but we feel like by doing this we can filter through the ones that really need it by someone who cares and someone who understands and can ask all the right questions because their peers I feel like that's a huge part of the program that we're doing now. Representive god recognized. Thank you Mr chair. Hi so I don't want to keep harping on this but I sat in this committee for a year this workgroup and it was people representative from all over the state came. First responders in may be bait for more help so if what we're doing now is working individuals are still needing help they still I mean I listen to someone talk about their experience and almost committed suicide in those are stories that don't leave me so I'm saying if we have officers first responders navy officials military firefighters police officers are banking as we still need more additional resources or more additional help I'm I'm asking you what do you think the solution is if you think the peer support is working but I'm hearing first hand from people their life experiences and they're begging for more resources than back and forth to do something else so I'm asking do you have a solution for what what do you think will help beyond what we're doing because they're asking for more than what we're doing representative Scott I appreciate that question I and I can't speak can I didn't get to hear what you heard so I don't know who these people are I can only speak for my share some the ones that I'm talking to now after they reviewed the bill and I'm here representing them so you know I thought I wish we could come up with the perfect solution to see in people's minds and make sure but to be quite honest with you sometimes people don't want help that need help and it's hard to see through that and unfortunately and what we do it's part of the job and I'm not the and we've come a long way in providing help for people and we want to provide and we feel like we are so I don't I don't know who the I can only speak for my group I mean Gary may elaborate more on that. All right I can just echo what he said this we wish we could have been a part of that group. As a chief of staff at two police officers that they commiserated or a suicide and it affected me but I did not see it coming nobody in the department saying that government and that officers never asked for help. And we're just now is just preventable as far as the those two were concerned. Represent you as well you're recognized thank you Mr chair there are two primary concerns here that I have after hearing this and I know I came in a little bit late some as part of it but this may have already been very clearly explained but. Is this mandated for law enforcement I mean can you point specifically to where this is mandated for law enforcement or is this truly optional is I think the other side is that it's not clear to me representative Gazaway it's just not to me it's not clear whether it's mandated or not there was a lot of shall is in it you shall what you shall do and again I. I it's hard to say that but we're we're we're here because we like what we're doing and we think it's it's effective we've come a long way from say the sit seventies eighties we've come a long way and what we're doing Get it out of here you at spots for that. So in that was one of the the things that I initially it was mandated that we officer would be sent in and represented women did did the amended somewhat but it's still a little. Blurry. Representative Richmond did you have a part to apologize thank you Mr I so I guess you know there's appears to be in your mind some question as to whether or not this is mandated or not at least maybe arguably it is Can you articulate clearly because this applies to public safety employees as my. Reading of it and that's a broad group of people beyond just law enforcement. It seems that there are unique concerns for mandating this maybe for law enforcement say aye opposed firefighters are opposed to other groups would fall under public safety employees I mean can you articulate clearly for this committee exactly why law enforcement officers are unique and should not be subject to the same requirements that we would make firefighters are other subject to occur several seven minute you comply with our first I think there's several reasons we're in a situation especially in our C. ID an investigative and and the guys on the highway who are witnessing car accidents they're working suicides they're working homicides all kinds of different things that happen in I'm not playing it down but you see it every day and and you learned you know that it's part of your job Scott almost being a doctor the doctor has to see this stuff every day and deal with it every day and has to work with it and put it somewhere yes when they need help we need to provide it and I've I believe that we are I. I don't know if that answers your your question I I think what we're doing is good I thank the peer support keeps it private I think the peer support keeps it private I think the bill the second bill that was passed last session makes it that way. So for us I think those are some differences here you might collaborate better and ideas. The. Representative as well you recognized for follow the thank you Mr chairman is the last point. Maybe in the form of a question but it. Is this something that can be worked out I mean it this this strikes me as the type of issue that surely could be worked out among these groups if it if it can be worked out I'm fully supportive but if it can you know with the sheriff's you guys tell me that you're opposed under these circumstances it's hard for me to support that so I just love to see it be worked out if possible that's the comment not a question thank you. Representative Richmond. Thank you Mr even if this is a mandatory. For somebody to seek this treatment or you are concerned that sheriff's departments are going to feel like it's mandatory because of the responsibility that would come with not sending somebody to this treatment if they say I don't want to go. I believe that's absolutely correct and I do believe. I do believe there could be individuals that could use it for their benefit that may not need that makes sense I believe that's a possibility also so yes to the answer your questions yes follow up Mr you're recognized. Is there not a way to work this out it seems like going back to what represent Beckham representative Gazaway said that that. You have to program sure they should be able to operate hand in hand you go to the pier if something additional is needed then you go to the second part of this thing my concern also is with with what you have said here I'm not sure I can vote for this bill at this point. Do you agree how do. See further questions from committee members sure thank you for your testimony today we have a signed up to speak against the bill markes Arkansas Municipal League and also John Wilkerson general counsel for the municipally. Thank you Mr chairman we have a Advisory Council meeting in New Sir Clark had to head off but this is I'm John Wilkerson general counsel the Arkansas Municipal League. Hi I'm Katy baton Hammer also the Arkansas Municipal League you're recognized for your testimony you know first of all I'll echo some of it she said a second ago I don't like to be up here to say that I'm against the bill we we are against the bill but we're not against the idea and it's something that we've been working on the Municipal League. A long time through our health benefit program in particular I really have to say thank you to represent of winning he's been tremendous to work with on this is listen to our concerns everything I'm going to say today I expressed to him he's done his best to work with us and I really appreciate that and for his constituents or watching he's done amazing work for on this bill to try to get some some much needed help and as he feels to the fire services among others I represented police officers and firefighters for the the majority of my career so I understand the issues that better surround here I've I've representive officers who have been involved in the officer involved shootings I represented firefighters who have been on the scene and found a dead two year old in her mother's arms in the bathroom I've seen this and I know how hard I don't know how hard it is but I have seen how hard is for people and that's what we're dedicated to make to doing something but this is not the way we we believe. Boppity back off one thing about the and that Katie sort of chime into but the confidentiality is probably our biggest concern and with without that without that confidentiality provision in this reporting requirement we're sort of doubles down on having create records about you know how many times it's been utilize we're very concerned that the utilization rate of this bill or the program in this bill is going to be very very low what we prefer to do and what we've talked a representative wing about is creating a program within the municipal league itself that would cover a vast majority of cities and towns in Arkansas to help with this and again it Katie and I have been working on this issue for a number of years and the bills that share that the sheriff mentioned earlier have helped push this down the road and we are hoping that we can develop a program that can better health first responders deal with this track of and so with that if you don't mind Katie would you. Yes as John said we agree with the intent of the bill we just I disagree with the mechanics of how to accomplish that you know the confidentiality issue I think it's something that's pretty big for us the bill would require or we think that would require for those employees to work with their employers to gain access to this mental health care there by I think having a chilling effect on actually taking advantage of the mental health care. Also in terms of cost we agree with representative wing that would be a minimal cost we think to cities but because it works through the health benefit plans it's not going to be applied equitably and health plans may not include certain providers and within their network so you would have to go out of network thereby increasing that cost some metal some health plans allow twelve visits some plans allow twenty four visits and the co pays as well very drastically within those health plans. But turning to the program that the Arkansas Municipal League is attempting to create we want to work to address the specific issues pointed out in house bill thirteen oh two and we want to work with those stakeholders including public safety employees firefighters police public employers and licensed mental health professionals to develop this program. The program would be centralized to provide one place where employees and employee orders could come to terms for the services so it wouldn't be each city on their own you know. Going piece mill it trying to attempt to accomplish are yet to accomplish the if the requirements of the bill. Our program would also provide twelve visits to a licensed mental health professional and at no cost the employees so there would be no copay no culture whatsoever and the visits would be triggered following a traumatic event although it is our intent to eventually expand this subprogram to allow for mental services really for any reason. The program would also include a vast network of providers in the State of Arkansas that could provide those services in person or virtually now our aim is to collect as many trauma specialists as possible and we're already researching potential participating providers but that's another problem with the bill itself is that the licensed mental health providers and that the employees are required to see must be specialized with that they must be trauma specialist we think this number is relatively low in the state of Arkansas we would want to work to to get more those providers into our network but we don't want limit participation and we don't want to limit access to care for these employees. And most importantly we think are the program would be confidential Adam and treated similar to a health plan or a covered entity under HIPAA thereby protecting the employees PH II because right now under this bill with the reporting requirements the city is required to to access I think there there would be a P. H. I. issue again that confidential employee information would have to be shared. The program itself would handle the employee intake thereby avoiding any requirement on the employee to access that care through the employer employee would simply file a claim with the program and we would go from there and in the program itself would keep those records and we would keep those in house we would scrap any sort of identifying information from those records and then turn those over for reporting purposes and we would also offer this program to volunteer firefighters without the need for any further study. Thank you any questions from committee members. Saying none we appreciate your appearing before this committee thank you. Colleagues looking over the signed up billions to and we do have a couple that have by then the opportunity to be a to the table that was paid for the bill of. J. C. make Daniel. Make then you if you would just have stated in the table and I understand here speak for the bill you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair my name is J. C. McDaniel. I'm a licensed professional counselor here in central Arkansas I am also a former United States marine as an entry officer for ten years served with third battalion twenty third marines deployed to Iraq seven oh eight I came back with the intent of being a full time marine and within a year I was diagnosed PTSD and my life pretty much came to an end until I started getting counseling. within that same year I doubt I'd also lost my first marine to suicide. My mission changed at that point I I I knew I needed to do something because there was a war back here that wouldn't be and fight and that was with mental health went back to school got my master's degree in counseling psychology and since then for the past eleven years I've been working with veterans with police officers with firemen at almost on a daily basis I've worked with little rock police department since two thousand eighteen working critical incidences. I now own verifies counseling I it's specifically designed to cater to our first responders. I'm I'm here today because I think there's a lot a lack of information on education Ellen educating the folks who don't understand the process of identifying an individual who needs help I was one of those people in two thousand eight when I got back the VA sent social workers from the VA to my unit and they if these are these are professionals right they came to us and I was diagnosed right there on the spot with PTSD. I stood up and I walked out and said there's there's no way there's no way I'm going to I'm even going to acknowledge that because that's going to affect my career. Well within a year I'd lost everything because she was right. So when you start talking about who needs to. Identify these individuals right after critical incident well it it it I'm not sitting here saying that peer support is an important it's important but those are the people who need to be diagnosed saying or determining whether that person needs to go to get help. It's not now. Can they can a Be supportive in that role a hundred percent can they go to their chief and say Hey this this person needs more help hundred percent but when it comes to determining you know does this person need need to be in a a program when you go to a counselor but for long term that that's up to the professional that's up to somebody who has a license I think we we start blurring the lines and just to the representatives point earlier about when it comes to legal issues you put the officer more risk if he's if he's sitting in there and he's talking about his issues with a bunch other officers who can also be called to the stand and testified against them against the things that he said because that stuff is not confidential. So I'm. I'm here primarily to support this this bill because I think. What we're doing right now is is isn't working it's I I see sheriff's deputies almost weekly. so if if it is working why they come to see me. Any questions from committee members. Seven nine thank you for your chart representative berry you're recognized so thank you Mr and I appreciate your service also in and I have to say and and now it's a sensitive subject but I can tell you over my forty five year career I've been dealt with more suicides and count on my toes and fingers. And I can honestly tell you that everyone of those. Not well none of them had anything to do with traumatic experiences on the battlefield they all dealt everyone of them yeah and and I think if you look at the statistics the numbers it's a mirror image of society day everyone of those that I had to deal with during my career dealt with the relationship and financial issues so I think we kind of muddy the waters when we start dragging in the traumatic experiences in with some of the other experiences that we're we're talking about today well I would argue with you Sir because in the past ten years I've lost six marines and yes I will tell you that their relationships were a clear indicator of of the response of of of being a suicide but they would have ever been there if there a motion all capacity to deal with those issues weren't what we weren't affected by what they had at what had happened to them when they were in combat. Any further questions from committee members say none Sir thank you for your testimony thank you for service. Signed up to speak for the bill of sale prime water. I would just face up to the committee and I understand you speak for the bill you're recognized to be testimony a yes our mindset rainwater represent the Arkansas professional firefighters association as a secretary treasurer I'm a fourth generation civil servant my great grandfather was a police officer in city builder ETA my grandfather was a police officer former president please you sociais Haitians my father was a firefighter and retired in nineteen ninety seven I came on the job in two thousand three so I have a of interesting viewpoint on PTS mental health because I've seen it in my my parents my grandparents my grandfather double some PTS issues over a line of duty shooting that he dealt with in his seventies nightmares and problems that he'd try to evade the course throughout the course of his career my father came on an interesting time in the fire service and was the very first paramedic for the other rate of fire department nineteen ninety and what to the very first paramedic program we ran a single paramedic truck in our city that ran the entire county and so we saw a lot action those times and in the sixties and seventies has had a lot of issues recently with PTS I came on the job and in two thousand three I graduated fire academy on June the thirteenth on June the fifteenth my first day on shift and my very first fire was a double fatality fire right did CPR on two people my very first day and about two hours later I found out the person I did CPR on the girl that I dated and went to preschool with in that area there was nothing there was no peer support those no counseling does not help you just told to suck it up and move on and and and deal with it the man who entered that structure fire with me I'm not gonna say his name but he later was fired terminated because he became afraid to go on structure fires because the drug girl out of fire the first time you ever saw one. over the course of my career I've dealt with numerous incidents Informatik the situations and the two thousand eighteen and the Arkansas professional firefighters recognized other this a problem nationally we know that cancer is the leading cause of death and firefighters the second leading cause of death a suicide preventable we decide take action on that And so we formed a peer support team that began to train firefighters and peer support and we do that I've been the clause I coordinated by peers fourteen the last five years it's kind of like in field of dreams they say if you build it they will come you format they will call and within days of having appears support team I was taking peer support calls elected you know mentioned earlier many of those calls had nothing to do a traumatic injury they were they were just family issues and you know I have a lot of bad day and a bad husband I gamble too much those are the issues that we we experience but also the dramatic situations we experience on a daily basis exasperated as problems and that this bill here I think it increases that it's another it's another tool in the toolbox somebody said another cog in the wheel many times firefighters want to get that help but they don't know they can afford it they know what's available to them in this bill affords that to them the cost of a pair of fire boots for of new firefighters about forty six hundred dollars that's less than the cost of what we're seeing here with this bill so the us to get these guys these twelve treatments which we talk about one treatment a month we're talking about twelve visits that shouldn't be a detriment to your staffing levels for one hour a month ultimately it we talk about the cost. What's the cost of losing a firefighter to suicide or police officers two of us to assign that's that's a that's a bigger costs in these copays. Ultimately we ask firefighters to seeing and payments workers police officers seat things that people don't want to see to do things they don't want to do and experience things they don't experience every day thousands and thousands are Kansas call nine one and we respond more asking two days respond for the respondents who's gonna respond for us we reach out for help and that bill does that. So thank you. Thank you any questions from committee members say none committee that's the last person I believe unless I miss someone's anyone else in the room it was I didn't call your name it was signed up to speak for against the bill. Yes Sir. To speak for the bill but my name's outside still on the paper and I believe there is couple used okay so you still want to speak for the bill yes Sir okay have a seat in the table. Page up to the committee and. Recognized maybe testimony my name is Ben Hammond am a career firefighter captain on a municipal fire department as well as a fire chief in a volunteer community where I live thank you to the chair and a committee I know you guys for a lot of arguments on this got a lot of questions and I believe that it's worth it I want to tell you about two separate things I've been in the fire service since two thousand eight and in two thousand and twelve had an incident where we were forcing a metal door to gain entry to the building and the metal on the door slashed my fingers the first two fingers of my right hand okay that's one thing about that for a second. And then I want you to think about as a workplace injury what happened to me okay immediately my fellow firefighters tended to my injuries I was then taken to the urgent care I was my fingers were treated I got stitches in one couldn't do anything for the other one is all external buddy Hield I went to some physical therapy all my fingers wasn't wasn't really too expensive if they were major cuts but they were taken care of fairly quickly but if they weren't and I lost my fingers I'm pretty sure it would've been taken care of as well okay and I never had a doubt when that metal hit my fingers my fingers are gonna be taken care of never crossed my mind I just knew that you know it was an accident it was preventable but it was an accident it was taken care of I was provided the correct care and no one ever told me no no one ever said you have to have surgery for your fingers we just went through the process of fixing my fingers and today I'm still firefighter because of that okay. In two thousand and sixteen and I'm just gonna tell you right now I'm an emotional person and so just forgive me in two thousand and sixteen I worked an incident left two children very very very small children at the end of the at the bottom of a swimming pool up until that date I had seen countless of traumatic events as a firefighter had seen fatalities in fires I had seen car wrecks I had seen children people I knew and I was always able to process those things I'm a very technical person I could tell you how every light and visual piece of equipment microphone in this room is set up the so as long as I can travel down that path and understand the way things are I can deal with the problem right. And I had always I was always able to deal with those things that I saw in in multiple different ways whether it was talking to people around me or processing them myself or with the support of my family or with the peer support because I believe in it I wholeheartedly believe that talking to a group of your peers who have been through something like that can save your life and can help you okay. This incident wasn't that way I could not process this in my mind I went home to my then three children I sat in my truck my wife recognized there was a problem she came and sat in the truck with me she could not process this problem okay. I can just I don't know what was different was that the kids was that the water was at the hundred and fifty years of combined emergency response service we had on scene and none of us could help I don't know but here's what I do know I could not process this I did not understand what went wrong and I did not know what to do okay so there was a a C. I. S. the briefing about this incident and not I held on to that for a couple they said this is it right I'm gonna be able to just open my mouth and everything is going to be fine it was not that way I opened my mouth and the words that came out or what they should have been and the people around me at that time Warren this is fairly prepared for what I had what I told them I was the officer at the time on our fire department I was a leader no one had ever seen me in this predicament they've never seen me vulnerable like this and I wasn't very pleased to expose that because I didn't understand that so. The the next step in this process if those things don't work is what kind of help cannot get much like the help I needed when my fingers were cut well the AP was an option for me I can tell you this right now I hope the young lady that heard my story of steel is employed doing the job that she loves because what I said to her and the things I said to her that day she was not sure how to handle and I apologize multiple times to her for that okay. So. I had to go a long ways from here. to. To finally say to someone I don't know that I'm okay because it wasn't comfortable to say that it wasn't comfortable for all the reasons we mentioned I didn't want to go home and be off work I didn't want somebody to say that guys week or that guy's not a leader I didn't want someone to say suck it up kid right you're young we deal with this all the time I didn't want those things I wasn't prepared to hear those things. My very first shift back to work after this we had been on a work out regimen for some time and it was cross fit and I was actually getting pretty good about it I was not competing with the other guys about getting good at it and one of the guys said to me. Why are you working out with us today and I thought this is it right this is a chance I get to say I'm broken you know and I said I just don't think I can because of this incident and I'm not sure how to process and he said well you know not working out always helps see when we get back you know and that's not that's not to say that he was at fault he just didn't know that either I have talked to people in the fire service and peer support groups all the time and say we as first responders need just as much training as anyone else and it's out there now we are getting better at this because we were not sure how to handle it when someone comes to us and says I'm broken and I need help you know we're better now than we used to be but we weren't okay this is my point. If if something like this happens to me or anybody else. We we need to be able to travel to the process to say. How do I get fixed so I can come back to work that's the goal I want to serve again how can I do it right how can I come on shift and not have an absolute freak out every time the tones go off because I don't think I'm going to be able to handle this okay to this day I have a hard time Watson I. V.'s get put in and and I don't understand why it was never that way before but for whatever reason put in one and two It's a leg bone of a child who is one year it was a problem for me okay and. But what what what should happen so I can go back to work right and it's as simple as this do I have did I have to have counseling I did but tomorrow when I run a wreck where someone bumps their head do I have to have counseling probably not but when when the programs that are in place which I don't believe that this bill diminishes at all. When you travel through those programs and someone like myself still stands back and says I still don't understand why in this boat I still don't understand what's the next step for me without question I should just be able to understand that my employer says I hear you and this is the next step. We have this we have this to provide for you. And. We're we're going to provide up to twelve visits for you take them learn about yourself learn about the situation let some somebody that is a professional in this trade that I understand what you're saying help you and then come back to work as we need you. Right that's it. It's as simple as that I understand that there's some cost in its minimal we've heard that. But. There was probably a lot of costs associated with states in my fingers too but it just never crossed anybody's mind to provide me the care that I needed to fix that and I went back to work. Okay now. The last issue the last the comment I'll make and I won't take up any more of your time. You probably could absolutely do enough research and FOR enough information to understand that there was a workplace incident on the day my fingers were cut and that was me that had a workplace incident and then I went and got care. What you won't find is anything past that. I understand everybody's different I have no problem sitting here telling you right now that I that something happened to me and I had to go get some counseling for I understand maybe that doesn't work for everybody but. I also feel like. The care that I got at the level it needed to be protected was protected. But. Reporting these things is the data that we all need to make decisions on how these programs work. It's so important I'm a big data person and it's important I understand privacy is important and I think it is still protected I think it and I think that this needs to be provided so that people who have gone through what I've gone through and needed to take that step and go that extra level to get help can get the help that they need. Any questions from committee members saying none per prejudged testimony. Representative **** I don't believe anyone else signed up to speak for against the bill so you're recognized because we bill. Thank you very much Mister chair thank you committee you have heard a lot of testimony a lot of compelling talking so what I would like to do is not take any more time other than I just want to answer each of the each of the statements that were made so that you can feel comfortable about the vote that you're about to make first I want to make it very perfectly clear. This bill changes absolutely nothing with the peer support group period nothing is changed this works and companion with as was mentioned earlier this is a perfect pair because there are two different options that one can choose fifty seven percent of people that are going through this but I fear these our first responders fifty seven percent of first responders fear negative repercussions from talking to their peers and talking about what they're dealing with forty percent fear demotion or firing. What this does is it gives an option to take it outside of that now as our counselor mentioned that vital for some it provides an option but it absolutely changes nothing with a very good peer support group this is absolutely not mandated this was pointed out multiple times in the committee today this is not mandated for any first responder to participate it is an option for them and that's very important be clear in fact when I saw that had conversations multiple conversations with the sheriff's department I offered with them if you can find a mandate I will take it out I will amend and I made that offer even this morning I have still not been able to find a mandate and either have day but I still offer that even as if we pass it out of here and it goes to the Senate if we find one we will absolutely do that but we have a lot of legalize of look that there is no mandate for participation for a first responder the no names are in this this is not enough I bill as far as names are concerned so privacy is protected only numbers reported not names and that's also important I want one with regards to the a municipally when they came up first I want to let Mr Wilkinson how much I appreciated working with you and Katie wonderful opportunities we do we discussed quite a bit what they presented is fabulous once they get that got them going they'll be in full compliance what this bill does is that gets our first responders the needs the that they have now to be that. We do we do it immediately the emotional reasons for this bill are very obvious and you've heard compelling testimony from our first responders the financial reasons are also obvious just re outfitting a firefighter a new firefighter about three thousand dollars dwarfs any of the copay is that we're talking about with this right now so financially this is a smart route to go and also emotionally as well the court has been given as a society we outsource all of our trauma to our first responders this is an opportunity for us to answer their call and I would appreciate a good vote on this bill. It is close to the bill. Got a motion representative makes do pass any discussion. As amended. The discussion on the motion. None all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. As have it the bill is passed thank you Mr chair thank you very much committee. Colleagues Hello at we've got some people here that's from out of town representative for cloud if you would just have safety of the table and you're recognized president house bill sixteen seventeen thank you Mr chair thank you colleagues and I anticipate that this will go quickly just got somebody to answer questions you can't be here this afternoon I'm good with the church permission could I have a two people join me the into the table please. Recognized present your bill thank you colleagues this bill came about as a result of the mental health and behavior health working group that formed over the inner and and it came to light during those meetings the Arkansas is drastically under reporting a death centerstate that are because from opioid use we know that the date is very clear that we are near the top in terms of opioid use opioid abuse among leading our Kansans but the death data is just wildly out of proportion with that we've got to do a better job of of tracking deaths that are caused by opioid use for a couple reasons the first obviously we just got to know it's killing our Kansans right if we want to create a safer state we've got to know what is harming our Kansans where in this state it's happening and particularly important I think in the light of the rise of an all across our state there are lots of people who are now dying from opioid overdoses particularly fennel who had no idea and there's no record of them ever having used opioids and and nobody would know that they've had that no in their system if we're not testing for it the second thing is that this opioid settlement my name that comes from federal grants is determined by the number of deaths per state caused by opioid use so we are leaving a huge amount of federal money on the table by not accurately reporting our numbers this bill that came out of that working group is something that was reached by consensus of we've got the crime lab we've got corners I governor's office this is a priority for them and the AG's office as well as gonna help so those are all the stakeholders the bill that we have in front of you addresses the problem and what we do is it would make autopsy is required in the case of a suspected drug overdose the bill got a lot of language in it but. Most of it is should the only mandate that comes in this bill if you look is at the very very end on Page two line twenty eight the state crime laboratory shall do a post mortem examination or autopsy in the case of a suspected drug overdose that's what this bill requires and I'm happy to answer any questions if you. Any questions from giving him a representative make sure recognized. just curiosity on this on this autopsy if it's a suspected drug death that autopsy simply just gonna need to involve blood work and that's it are we talking about we're going to require them to do a full autopsy when bloodwork would potentially provide the answer to the question I was a drug related Mister chairman I have committeeman to that question please the director you're recognized answer questions. courage Anil Director state crime lab and that some of the problem because just doing drug analysis on a blood sample doesn't tell you the full story and we we feel like it's medically necessary to do that complete autopsy so we can look at the medical history of the individual what's going on at the time of the death of that individual and again to to our toxicology and have my apologist interpret that data follow recognized and then the the only other questions are concerned I have on this is we've heard testimony in the past about how the state crime lab has been backed up trying to get cases and get to materials through are you guys going to be equipped to be able to handle the added caseload that this would require yeah absolutely we want to needing additional staff to handle this not. Any further questions from committee members say none representative clan you're recognized close we bill because my billing appreciate a good vote thank you. You make a motion for a new passport on this committee yes Mister chair make a motion to pass as. I have a motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Saying none all in favor say aye. All opposed say narrow graduations your bill is passed thank you. fiction to recess is or anybody else in the travel great distance to be here to testify on a bill. Okay good so we're going to do we're going to recess we will come back from recess ten minutes upon adjournment and what we'll do this afternoon committee it may be a long number with that to special orders and I love being fair to us so many of the sponsors on today's agenda that we were not able to get to the bills once we hear the to special order we're going to go back into the but this morning's agenda until we get it worked out and so. We'll be recess until ten minutes upon adjournment thank you.