House State Agencies Committee
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Glenn Gattis
Unverified
0:00
today understand the rules. The rules are, ladies and gentlemen, this is a public facility and you are welcome to attend and participate. The rules also
Speaker 30
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state that you are not to approach a member of this body while they're at the table. Do not hand the information to them. Do not walk up to the table. Let's have a little decor and manners. If you want something handed out to a member, you have to pass it through the chairman here.
So if you have anything you'd like to present to this body on paper, you're going to have to clear it through us first. Does everybody understand the rules? Thank you. Well, we hope they'll get in here eventually. We've got some members coming, I think. We have a quorum. We have also had Representative Hubbard has agreed, because it's a special order of business, that he is going to let Senator Burnett run his bill, Senate Bill 156,
and Representative Hubbard has agreed to let Senate Bill 260 precede him. So without objections from the committee, we're going to let Senator Burnett with Senate Bill
Glenn Gattis
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156 take the floor. And, Senator, you have the mic. Thank you, Mr. Chairman
Speaker 6
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and Representative Hubbard. I appreciate the accommodation. My bill is Senate Bill 156. It's one of those good government bills, and it simply allows the Court of Appeals judges to administer oaths.
They apparently were left out and for some period of time have not had the ability to administer an oath. This bill also allows county judges to administer oaths. I had to amend it because they were offended that they likewise were left out. So I would appreciate a good vote on this matter, and if there are any questions, I'd be happy to answer those.
Speaker 8
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Representative Tyler. motion at the proper time
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sir you've already been up we have that ahead of
you though any questions to the senator about the bill from the committee if not Reverend Cheatham Mr. Chairman I'll make a motion do pass we have a motion do pass on Senate bill 156 any discussion from the committee what's the pleasure
Glenn Gattis
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of the committee all in favor say aye I was opposed say no Senator, you've passed your bill. Thank you,
Speaker 30
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Mr. Chairman. Have a great one. If we would, we'd go to Senate Bill 260.
Glenn Gattis
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And I think, Ms. Smith, you're running this bill for the Senator? Yes. This is Senate Bill 260.
Speaker 18
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260. Representative Collin-Smith, you have the mic.
Representative Linda Collins-Smith
Unverified
3:16
Thank you, Mr. Chair of the Committee. I'm here today with the director of one of our Law Academy training directors, Steve Schultz.
We ran this bill because what it does, it allows a body that already has full law enforcement training, and they have full law enforcement capabilities to put themselves into an agency so that they can actually apply for federal grants. Right now they're not in an agency, and they don't have the availability to do that. It doesn't cost the state any money, but it does put them in a position to receive grants. And I have Director Schultz with me today from the Pocahontas Training Academy,
and he would like to share some things
Speaker 24
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with you. I visited with the academy. Sir, excuse me, would
Steve Schultz
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4:05
you state your name and who you're with for the record? Yes, sir. My name is Steve Schultz. I'm the director of the Black River Technical College Law Enforcement Training Academy in Pocahontas. Welcome today. Thank you, sir. I've touched base with Camden. I met with them, and they have the same problem as we do, so we're kind of jointly pursuing this.
Speaker 28
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Camden, for instance, was unable to receive stimulus money recently to do repairs and
work that they needed to do because the federal government didn't consider them a law enforcement agency. And by law, as Representative Smith said, all law enforcement academy instructors are certified police officers, have to meet the same standards as all other officers in the state. And actually, we far exceed most. And the only thing we're asking is the change of the moniker so that we're considered an agency where we can access federal grants and other needs that we have. We seem to be caught in a gap. We're not purely an educational institution.
We're not purely a law enforcement entity. We would just like to be considered an agency whose primary role is training, which is what we
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are and nothing changes. Are you willing to
take questions? Sir? Are you willing to take questions? Yes, sir. I am. Question from the Chair, if I would. Are you stating that there's not going to be any new money required from the state to make
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this changeover? No, sir. The primary thing, a couple examples, federal grants, there's a federal program where they
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will transfer surplus federal property to other agencies and we could access their surplus property if they considered us a law enforcement agency. Another example is we have a statewide sobriety checkpoint vehicle and we have yet to be able to put an ACIC machine where the officers who are there on site running the checkpoints can run driver's license checks and so forth because we're not considered an agency. And just little things like that, we just continue to run across pesky little issues that were blocked
Steve Schultz
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because we really don't fit either category 100 percent.
Speaker 30
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Okay. Yes, thank you. And we have Senator Rep. Cowling. Thank
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you, Mr. Chair. You said Camden. the two places that where you can get certified from? Is there training? Yes, sir. Some
Steve Schultz
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of the larger police departments have their own academies. Fort Smith runs theirs occasionally. Little Rock runs theirs
Speaker 28
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occasionally. Pretty much everyone else uses one of us. We do all the North Little Rocks and people from a pretty broad part of the state. There's a small academy in Northwest,
Arkansas, but they're directly affiliated with Canada, so this will take care of their needs also. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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6:43
you. Representative Cheatham. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Cowling may have answered my question and his question, but Mr. Schultz, there are more
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than one academy around the state. Is that what you're telling
Steve Schultz
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6:55
me? Yes, the Aledo, which is the Arkansas Law Enforcement Training Academy based out of East Camden and us. Okay, so and Camden
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
7:03
And that does not have a problem with you, what you're trying to do here?
Speaker 28
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It's not going to take anything away from them? We went before the commission, and I presented this also, and the commission voted unanimously to support this. It's in their minutes. And it's primarily
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to let you apply for federal grants? And them, too, yes. And
Representative Jim Nickels
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7:23
them, too. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Representative Nichols? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sometimes when people have a designation of law enforcement that qualifies them for a different type of retirement programs or different type of pay systems.
Does your designation now turn your employees into a category that would entitle them to enhance retirement benefits or any other benefit from the state? I think that's already the case because they're certified police officers. However,
Speaker 28
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all of our people, since we're attached to a college, go through the educational branch of the retirement process. They have options. They can do a personal or that.
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
8:09
I really can't speak for Camden on that. But just because they now will be called a law enforcement
Speaker 28
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agency, it's not going to make a difference on your retirement program? I don't see why
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it would because they're already certified officers under
Representative Tracy Pennartz
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8:34
the auspices of CLEST. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Rep. Bernard. Thank you, Mr.
Chair. Mr. Schultz, just one further question.
Does this designation as a law enforcement agency give you powers to police that you you didn't have before, or would you only, and if so, would you most often be called out in times of emergency or when we, you know, in those kinds of cases? Arkansas statute makes every
Steve Schultz
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law enforcement academy instructor a certified officer with
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statewide authority, but I assure you we choose not to. I'm retired from the state police, I'm a former sheriff, and the very last thing I want to do is write you a speeding ticket. It would take a very serious emergency for us to be called out, and if it were an emergency, we would be more
Representative Tracy Pennartz
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9:34
than willing to do anything we could to help the people of Arkansas in any need. Well, that's what I was concerned about because, I mean, if you could be used in cases of emergency like some of this really bad weather we've had or in case we had, God forbid, other type of disaster, this designation would allow you all to assist in that process?
Steve Schultz
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9:54
This wouldn't change it because that's already the
Speaker 72
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case. Okay. Good deal. Thank you, sir. Thank
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
10:06
you, Mr. Chair. Representative Roebuck. Representative Roebuck. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. I think this is good because you would be able to qualify for federal grants and be able to access surplus, but what I'm asking is you said earlier that Fort Smith and some of the other towns run their own academies, but they would not be included when we're talking about grants and also surplus property.
Steve Schultz
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10:25
Is that your intent? It would be a moot point because
Speaker 60
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they're already an agency. Okay. That's what I thought. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Wilkins. A
Speaker 30
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motion at the proper time, Mr. Chairman. What's your motion? Do pass. We have a
motion on the floor to do pass. Representative Hobbs, was you on the
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
10:54
list to speak? Okay, I thought you raised your hand.
I'm sorry. We have a motion on the floor to do pass. All in favor of the motion, do pass. Say aye. Any opposed say no. You passed your bill down there, Representative. Thank you. Thank
Speaker 30
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you for coming today. Thank you. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, members of the
committee, I think now we're here for the special order. Representative Hubbard, if you would, if you would take the end of the table and we will
Unknown speaker
11:28
get started. Mr. Chairman, I have a request. I'm sorry, Representative. I have a request.
John Hubbard
Unverified
12:00
And your request, sir? I'd like to have
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Representative Lee to sit here with me to advise me on a couple of matters.
Speaker 30
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Yes, sir. Regarding procedure? Yes, sir. I understand you have an amendment. Yes, sir. We need to take care of that amendment first. Okay. If that's okay, we're going to pass out the amendment as staff will
be passing out right now, members. As soon as it passed out, we'll take up the amendment and the amendment only.
Representative Hubbard, are you ready to discuss your amendment? Yes, sir.
Speaker 97
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Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This amendment is basically to add a
John Hubbard
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13:44
group of co-sponsors to the bill for one part of Do I need to list the ones that we're adding or just give the fact that they are?
Speaker 30
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No, sir, that's not necessary. We'll skip over to the second part. Okay. The
John Hubbard
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14:00
next item on the amendment is to change the title of the bill, to read an act to set the requirements for a person to be eligible to receive a state benefit, to allow certain persons who otherwise might not be eligible to receive a state benefit to do so only in instances of emergency or when life-saving measures are required and for other purposes.
Also, the subtitle changed to reflect the title, the same wording of the title. The next part of this amendment is on page 2, line 20, to delete the number 1 provision on there. Also on page 2, line 32, we're deleting the terminology or political subdivision.
Speaker 101
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And page 3, we're deleting lines 2 through 4. That's what
John Hubbard
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15:12
was done with this particular amendment, Mr. Chairman. Representative, are
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you ready to take questions on the amendment? Yes, sir. Representative Chatham. Just
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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15:26
a clarification, Mr. Chairman, on the
amendment, Mr. Hubbard, on line 20, delete,
are we just deleting the one in parentheses or are we deleting that line? Just the one in parentheses, is that we're deleting? Line 20, page 2. The one that follows the C, we're just taking that one out, not the whole line. Yes, sir. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions
Speaker 30
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for the committee on the amendment? What's the pleasure of the committee then? Do we have a – Representative Hobbs?
Move for do pass on the amendment. We have a motion to do pass on the amendment. All in
Glenn Gattis
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favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Say no. Amendment passed, Representative. Now we're ready to discuss the bill as amended. Right. You're ready
John Hubbard
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16:28
to go, sir? Okay. Now this is my first bill to present to a committee, so you'll have to bear with me. But my name is John Hubbard. I am a state representative from District 75 in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and I appreciate the opportunity to present my House Bill 1292 to this committee today.
House Bill 1292 is an act to set the requirements for a person to be eligible to receive a state benefit and to allow certain persons who otherwise might not be eligible to receive a state benefit to do so only in the instance of emergency or when life-saving measures are required. In fact, under this bill, no person shall be eligible to receive any state benefits if they are not a legal resident of Arkansas or if they are not present in the United States legally.
By definition, an illegal alien is a person who has entered the United States illegally and is deportable if apprehended, or an alien who entered the United States legally but who has fallen out of status and is deportable. Just so we're all clear, I want
Speaker 113
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to reiterate that illegal alien is someone who entered the United States illegally and is deportable. We're not talking about immigrants who are going through the process to become U.S. citizens.
We're talking about a huge number of individuals who are invading our country's borders on a daily basis illegally. the reason many
John Hubbard
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18:03
of those who enter our country illegally do so simply is to secure U.S. citizenship for their unborn children although it is true that these unborn children indeed are innocent victims of this crime of illegal immigration so are the taxpayers of the state of Arkansas whose compassion is being exploited by those who have no desire to assimilate themselves into American society
or become true American citizens The compassion of the American people is used against them to rob the American taxpayers of resources that are intended for its citizens. In the face of the federal government's inability to secure our borders and enforce illegal immigration laws, it is now up to the states to pass legislation to circumvent the problems large illegal alien populations bring to our communities. It is left
Speaker 113
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to the state to bear the financial burden, and in today's current dire economic
climate, the people of Arkansas are very unhappy with the rising cost of state social service programs in general, and more specifically, in the case of illegal aliens. The time to stop funding a free ride for illegal or undocumented persons is at hand. Now, ladies and gentlemen of this committee, I truly believe that House Bill 1292 is
John Hubbard
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possibly the most important piece of legislation we will have the opportunity to pass into law during this session of the legislature.
This bill is overwhelmingly supported by the vast majority of my constituents, and I might add by yours also. This issue was a subject of a petition drive last summer by
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Secure Arkansas in which people of all political parties, races, and even nationalities signed on to in hopes that it would be placed on the 2010 ballot as an amendment to the Arkansas State Constitution. That ballot petition did not fail through the lack of public interest and effort of many citizens in this state.
Like most states in these tough economic times, Arkansas is experiencing severe financial problems in every area of our economy. Our roads and highways are in terrible shape. Hospitals all over our state are in danger of closing. Factories are shutting down or laying off thousands of workers. Thousands of homes are either
John Hubbard
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20:27
in or very near foreclosure status. IRAs, 401ks, and other retirement accounts and personal life savings have drastically been reduced or have even become insolvent.
Our own citizens are suffering due to this depressed economy, many beyond the chance of recovery. with economic conditions such as this to deal with the very last thing the citizens of Arkansas need to
Speaker 113
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worry about is supporting an ever-growing population that is within our state and country illegally the federal government is doing nothing to address this issue partisan
John Hubbard
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politics in our state is doing nothing to address this problem it's time for our government officials to stop condemning those of us
Speaker 113
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who are trying to fix what is broken I urge each of you on this committee to vote on this legislation, not for political gain or for any political party agenda, but vote on it because we know that the people of our state want this legislation, at the very least voted on by those people they have elected to represent them. The money saved by denying state benefits to those who are in this country illegally could go to help fix our roads and highways, help fund our hospitals, and promote new
John Hubbard
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business coming into the state of Arkansas, which would create jobs. The very future of
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our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren is being compromised in order to support those who are in this country illegally. Let's take a moment to review what some other states around Arkansas are doing to combat this ever-growing
John Hubbard
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problem. In 2007, Missouri passed on the ballot a proposed constitutional amendment designated English as the official language of Missouri. In November 2008, nearly 90 percent of the Missouri citizens that voted voted in favor of this amendment,
thereby making English the official language of all governmental activity in the state of Missouri. Also in 2008, Missouri passed a measure that required the Missouri Highway Patrol and other law enforcement officials to verify the immigration status of any person arrested and then inform federal authorities if that person were found to be in Missouri illegally. Illegal
Speaker 113
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immigrants in Missouri do not have access to state benefits such as food stamps, health care, through the Missouri Health Net, or financial aid to higher education.
In 2007, Oklahoma enacted laws that caused tens of thousands of illegal aliens to flee that state ahead of those new laws going into effect. This new Oklahoma
John Hubbard
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22:58
law required the deportation of arrested illegal aliens, which was the reason for the mass exodus from that state. Also in 2007, Tennessee enacted five new laws affecting illegal aliens. Under these laws, employers of illegal immigrants could lose their
Speaker 113
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business license in the state of Tennessee.
Now, what do we think these illegal aliens went to who left those states who had toughed their own laws on illegal immigration? They didn't have to look very far to find a new home where the state government turned their heads and welcomed them with open arms. came to Arkansas, the South's latest sanctuary state. What a better place for illegal aliens where the governor makes available to them almost any state benefit they could ever want and with little or no intrusion into their legitimacy to be here.
Ladies and gentlemen, I do not have the answer to all the illegal alien problems facing our country and our state.
John Hubbard
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23:56
What I do know is that we in Arkansas do not have the financial resources to continue providing endless free
Speaker 113
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services to a large and rapidly growing illegal alien population. We have to take steps to protect our state. It is not physically responsible or constitutional to make the citizens of Arkansas pay and pay again to fund those services for illegal aliens
when so many of our own people are struggling just to make ends meet. The main idea in this, the reason for this bill is that illegal aliens are exactly that, illegal. You might ask, where is your supporting documentation? And frankly, that
John Hubbard
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is one question I've asked myself several times since I have been sworn in here. Ladies and gentlemen,
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let me assure you that I would have brought stacks of documentation
to show where and how much state taxpayer dollars have been spent on supporting the lifestyles of thousands of illegal aliens who have invaded Arkansas and many other states in this country where state governments were less than diligent in enforcing our own immigration laws. I was told on several occasions that I would be provided with this information, but unfortunately... President Hubbard,
Glenn Gattis
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25:12
I hate to apologize, but if you would, I've got to make a little announcement. Ladies and gentlemen, at the end of the
Speaker 30
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table there next to the Representative Hubbard,
you're going to have to move back because this is a legislative space here, and we have to honor
Glenn Gattis
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25:28
the rules of the body. So thank you all for doing that. I'm sorry, Representative Hubbard, I did not mean to interrupt you, but we want to make sure we're staying within the rules of the House. Thank you, sir. You may continue. Thank you, sir. Let me back
John Hubbard
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up just a second here. Ladies and gentlemen, let
Speaker 113
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me assure you that I would have brought stacks of documentation
to show where and how much our state taxpayer dollars have been spent
John Hubbard
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25:58
on supporting the lifestyles of those thousands of illegal aliens in our state and many of the other states of this country where state governments have been less than diligent in enforcing immigration laws. I was told on more than one occasion that I would be provided this information, but unfortunately, until the earliest morning before we came to this committee meeting, that information had not been made available to me, although I was notified that there was now some information available.
In the latest report showing any figures on the state monies going toward illegal aliens, several of those state departments, such as the Arkansas Department of Finance Administration, the Arkansas Department of Labor and the Arkansas Department of Human Services on the 2007 report, which was the latest data we had available to us, they showed in the category to list the dollar amount spent that there was no physical data available for Arkansas in these categories.
Speaker 113
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This bill will hopefully answer some of the questions about where to and how much of our
John Hubbard
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27:02
taxpayer dollars taxpayer dollars are going towards supporting people who are not in this country legally. Ladies and gentlemen, this bill deserves to be voted on by
Speaker 113
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the full membership of the Arkansas House of Representatives. You can make that happen by passing House Bill 1292 out of committee and onto the House floor for this very important vote. If we continue to play partisan politics and games instead of getting back to the business
of protecting the future of our citizens, we're not just hurting ourselves, but we're sabotaging every generation that will follow after us. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will be open for questions. Thank
Speaker 30
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you, Representative Hubbard. First, Representative Cheatham, you have some questions? Well, Mr. Chairman, I have several, and
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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27:46
I think I'll just ask one, and then I'll reserve the right to come back, because I'm sure there's some other questions besides mine. I don't want to monopolize the time.
Mr. Hubbard, thank you. Thank you for your passion. Thank you for being here today. I'd like
to just look at on page 1, line 2526. Of course, the issue that I deal with personally, I guess, because it's been in another committee, same issue, institution of higher education, providing out-of-state residents with in-state tuition. Of course, I'm sure you're aware there's a federal legislation that takes care of this issue. Is that correct? Yes, sir, I was
Speaker 113
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aware of that, and also there is a bill before one of the House committees at the present time
John Hubbard
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to deal with this specific issue, and it has been tabled and is not brought up. That is correct. How many,
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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28:40
and I know you don't have information that I have because it's just been given to me, in the fall of this year, of course, let's back up a minute. When this came to be a problem a couple of years ago, the Department of Ed, higher ed, was directed to address this problem, to follow these guidelines. And when Mr. Harris filed his bill, it made us take another look at it.
And what we found out was in the fall of this year, we had zero illegal aliens, if you want to use that term, getting in-state tuition. We did have some high school students that are not required to be charged that, but we had zero students. So
I guess my question is, why re-legislate something that is already law? And we're taken care of.
Speaker 104
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I'd like to defer to Representative Harris to answer that, if
Speaker 30
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I might. Representative Hubbard, when you sat down, and you asked if Representative Lee could be there to counsel you. Yes, sir. And we concurred with that request. Now, if Representative Harris wants to speak for or against the bill, I think it would be most appropriate if he'd wait at that time. Do you not agree that it's your bill? We'd appreciate it if you would answer the questions. And if Representative Harris wants to speak against the bill, we would certainly afford him an opportunity and time to do that.
Speaker 23
30:11
You asked Representative Lee. You either need to stay with Representative Lee or you're on your own. Okay. Thank you. You
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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30:27
would like to ask your question again? Well, I just want to make sure that the committee understands and the audience understands and the newspaper understands that we have done a thorough check of our students enrolled in higher ed.
Of course, we all get e-mails and a lot of misinformation. I think the first one, the first bill run on education, the comment was made by someone that we had 1,700 at the U of A that were illegal immigrants getting education and not paying out-of-state tuition. Well, it turns out that out of all of our colleges, public college universities, we don't have any documented for the fall semester. And I guess it bothers me that I know we have an issue, and I agree.
And, as a matter of fact, this committee addressed this same issue within the last two weeks about something that I think is beginning to address our problem, and that is jobs that are available to these people that are noncitizens. We need to address that, and we did, this committee, and we're going to do more that way. But as far as pointing out things like tuition for non-citizens, we're doing it proper. So I guess it bothers me that we continue to see legislation
Speaker 130
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filed that is taking care of things that are already here.
Speaker 113
31:48
Yes, sir. I understand that that has been addressed. I think Representative Harris's bill helped to bring that
John Hubbard
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31:53
information out because that information was not available until he entered his bill again. and the Department of Higher Education did update their information and provide that, which, as you said, did show that we did not have the numbers that
we thought there might be. And I think you're correct in that sometimes we
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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32:10
need to remind ourselves of things we
put down in statute, but I think we're following that. I guess that's one of the problems I have with your bill, and, Mr. Chair, I'll yield to someone else.
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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32:23
Rep. Tyler? Tyler? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, when in the title of the
subtitle of your bill and the act title, what do you mean specifically when
John Hubbard
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32:44
you say benefits? There are several benefits that have been dispersed to people. What are those? state agencies, like our kids, education benefits, as we've talked about, which is not really
addressed in this bill, but that is a benefit that is given to them. So
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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33:01
your bill proposes that we not educate our K-12 children? No, ma'am, and I'd appreciate it
John Hubbard
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33:06
if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. I never said that. I do not agree with that. So I'd appreciate it if you'd just direct it straight at what you're getting to your Sir, I will, if you'll help
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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33:17
me understand what you mean when you said education. I'm not
John Hubbard
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33:20
saying that we're denying education. I have no intention through this bill of denying education. Oh, I'm
Speaker 113
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sorry. The Supreme Court, would you let me answer, please, ma'am?
The Supreme Court has said that the children can be educated. So this bill has nothing
Speaker 112
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to do with educating the kids or denying funds to educate the kids. Can you then help me
Speaker 142
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understand the exact benefits that you believe we need to prohibit? Yes, ma'am, if you'll bear with me just
John Hubbard
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33:57
I would like to address as a result of this bill would be
unemployment benefits, workers' compensation benefits, and I previously mentioned our kids' benefits there, the health coverage is on that. Interstate tuition, which we just alluded to, but then again, I think
Speaker 112
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some of that has been addressed and possibly cleared
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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34:24
up, and also Medicaid. The unemployment and workers' compensation benefits that you allude to, Can you
direct me to the specific code that's included in your bill that addresses that?
No, ma'am. I cannot right this time. But that's an intention you have is to prohibit unemployment compensation and to prohibit workers' compensation, but you don't know which
Speaker 112
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code identifies that? No, ma'am. I couldn't tell
Speaker 151
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you right this time. Mr. Chair, may I ask another
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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35:01
question? I guess I may. What do you think the average citizen thinks when you say the words benefits?
John Hubbard
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35:09
I think benefits are things that are given to hopefully citizens of this country or people who are here legally have been paying in benefits to receive certain benefits, like the ones I just mentioned here. As an employer or prior employer, I paid quite a bit of money on unemployment benefits along with my payroll taxes that I would send in each month. That's some of the benefits I think we'd be
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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35:39
referring to. You don't think the average citizen
also thinks about health insurance and Social Security
and those kinds of things when you use that term
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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35:51
lots of e-mails I've gotten, there's a lot of misinformation about what I believe you believe this bill ought to do in terms of benefits. So I think that that is an issue in helping the citizens of Arkansas understand what it is we're
Speaker 142
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really trying to do with this bill. Would you agree with that? I
Speaker 153
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would not disagree with that. But in a
Speaker 113
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nutshell, I think what the people of Arkansas are wanting us to do is to stop giving anything to people who are here illegally.
The whole purpose of this bill is if you're here illegally, you're not supposed to be here in the first place, and we should not be giving you any incentive to be here, regardless of what those benefits might be. I understand, Mr. Hubbard.
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
36:34
One more thing, if I may follow up, Mr. Chair. Yes, Representative Tyler. I agree with you that people should not be here illegally, so let me just go on record to say that. I do support that.
Some of the benefits, though, that I think that you've outlined here, do you think that some
of those benefits will overall benefit the state, like immunization or prenatal care? I can
John Hubbard
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37:07
see immunization being a benefit to the citizens of this state. Because if people are coming in from other countries and are bringing diseases to this country, if we were to offer immunization in that regard, I think that would help protect the citizen of this state.
But anything past that, at this point, I'm not willing to say that these people deserve or are entitled to these benefits. Even though
Representative Linda S. Tyler
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37:40
there are many prenatal care that would be born here in the United States and would be a citizen under the
John Hubbard
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37:49
Constitution? Yes, ma'am. I'm going to have to clarify my position on this, Representative Tyler. I am probably as passionate about the unborn as anybody in this room.
I find it a little bit strange that our governor has spoken out his sympathies for the unborn when in the past he has not seemed to be too concerned about the unborn in regards to abortion. But now all of a sudden that the issue of prenatal care and it is classifying the unborn child as a person or future citizen of this country, he seems to have developed an interest in protecting their rights. So, yes, ma'am,
I have a, I don't know exactly how I need to say it,
but I am very sympathetic to the unborn. I think
they're truly innocent victims of this, of what is happening to them or the circumstances they're finding themselves in through no fault of their own. But also the taxpayers of Arkansas are equally innocent victims
Speaker 113
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of what is happening to them through no fault of their own is something they obviously have no protection from or no choice in, although they have loudly voiced their opinion
that these benefits to people who are here illegally do
John Hubbard
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39:14
not need to be spent or paid for with taxpayer money. They could be going to other
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
39:22
things in our state where we have needs. One little different direction, and then I'll be quiet. Your bill also prohibits benefits to residents of Arkansas who are not citizens, legal residents of Arkansas who are not
John Hubbard
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39:37
clear that up in the wording.
There was an or there. Are you referring to the title, the change in the
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
39:46
title that we just did? No, sir, I'm looking at page 1, line 33, 34, and 35. and you say a benefit offered or administered under this chapter shall not be available to a person who is not a United States citizen or who is present in the United States illegally. Now, I know there are a lot of people who are residents of this state
who are here legally and who are paying into the tax system and who are contributing
to our society in a very responsible way. Why in the world would we want to deny them benefits? Representative Tyler, this bill is
John Hubbard
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40:25
not intended to deny anybody who is here legally. I think your bill doesn't say that, sir, respectfully. The word or was intended to create a choice there, basically. I don't think it works. Well,
it might not, but that can be corrected.
Speaker 113
40:43
That can be correct. Let me just stress that the people who are here on green cards, who are in the process of going through the procedures of becoming American citizens, the people who are here on visas, education visas, student visas, this bill is not directed at them in
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41:06
any way, shape, or form. Representative Schlenker, do you have some questions?
Representative Mary L. Slinkard
Unverified
41:13
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, you've mentioned three titles here. I understand Title VI has to do with higher education. Refresh my memory. What does Title 20 refer to in
Section 4 on page line 2? What matters is that title? I can't. 20, Chapter 76, Subchapter 1.
I don't know what it is. What page in line are you talking about again? I'm on page 2. Under Section 4, you have said that you're going to add language to Title 20, Subchapter 76, Subchapter 1. You're going to add language to that. What matter is 20-76-1? in the code.
Speaker 104
42:57
Madam Vice Chair, I'll have to admit I'm not, I don't have
Representative Mary L. Slinkard
Unverified
43:25
the wording of Subjective 1 here before me. Well, could you get that information for me?
Yes, ma'am. I'm just not familiar with Title 20. Yes, ma'am. I'll be
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
43:36
glad to get that for you. Representative Hubbard, we're going to, if it's all right with everyone, I'm going to ask the staff to run down that code where we'll have it here before we get through with our meeting this morning. So we're going to try that, run that down for you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Yes, sir. Representative, do you
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have any more questions? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Representative Nichols, you're next on the list.
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
44:01
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it may surprise you to learn, Representative Hubbard, or do you know that under our current unemployment insurance law, illegals are not eligible for unemployment benefits? So I'm kind of confused about why the unemployment law already covers that area. Were you aware that our UI law did make ineligible illegal folks? Now, restate your question, please, sir.
Well, you said in your statement that one of the benefits that you thought they should not receive was unemployment insurance and workers' compensation. And it's my understanding of the unemployment insurance law that they're not eligible for unemployment insurance benefits. So are you trying to take away a benefit that they're already not entitled to? Well, you
John Hubbard
Unverified
44:52
know, I believe we've seen several instances, I don't know that I'm going to be able to enumerate them right here today, of
several benefits that they've been recipients of that they were supposedly not entitled
to. And if they are receiving unemployment insurance, then this is one of the things we want to make sure
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
45:13
that is not available to them. It's not now, but I want to move on to another
question. During your comments, you were talking about the surrounding states and what they were doing and that Arkansas was becoming a haven. And one of the states you mentioned was Tennessee, and if they had passed law over there dealing
with business licenses, I guess, was that law designed to take away the license of a business who hired illegals or
undocumented? From what I've been able to find out
John Hubbard
Unverified
45:48
about that law, yes, sir, it was. If it was done intentionally, if they were
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
45:54
hiring illegals intentionally. Okay. Now, you said that Arkansas has not done anything. But do you recall House Bill 1013 that passed out of the House last week?
Speaker 186
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Yes, sir. I believe you're referring to your
John Hubbard
Unverified
46:20
bill. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I remember that one. And what did that bill do? That bill was to address contractors that were knowingly
Speaker 59
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hiring illegal aliens. And it would have taken away their
John Hubbard
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46:29
business license, would it not? Yes, sir, but my bill was filed before yours reached the point that it did in the process.
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
46:35
Okay, but you did have an opportunity to vote on my bill after you had filed your bill.
Can you tell me how you voted on
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
46:54
against that bill. So it's okay for contractors hiring illegals, but
yet you tout Tennessee as a reason for us to pass your law. Well, sir,
John Hubbard
Unverified
47:05
I do not believe that just the idea of regulating contractors hiring
illegals was the full intent of that bill.
My vote was conditioned on another problem I had with that bill. It had nothing to do with preventing illegal immigration. Representative Nichols, I apologize,
Speaker 30
47:25
but you're not talking on Representative Hubbard's bill. You're talking on your bill. No, I was talking on
Representative Jim Nickels
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47:31
his opening statement about the rationale for us to pass his bill, and that rationale was flawed because Arkansas is doing something. Well, let's
Speaker 30
47:42
try to stay focused on Representative Hubbard's bill as directly as we possibly
can where we can keep
the whole program, the system moving forward, if you don't
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
47:53
mind. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take that into consideration. But I'm also concerned
from a higher education standpoint in that the language on page 1, 33 through 35, my reading of that would indicate
that any public university who might have an athlete from a foreign country who is not a United States citizen would not be eligible
for that scholarship. Do you not read that language
Speaker 113
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the same way? Well, sir, I understand from Representative
John Hubbard
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48:27
Tyler's question to me, and I somewhat agree with her that maybe the wording of that is a little bit confusing, but no, sir, it's It's not intended to deny a person's right to be here who is an athlete attending college legally and
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
48:42
has gone through the proper procedures. But your bill, it may not be an intended consequence, but to my reading of the plain language, that is definitely going to happen.
They're not going to be eligible for scholarships at our public universities. I think what you're saying,
you agree that you could see that language would indicate that, would you not? Well, obviously
John Hubbard
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49:05
it's been interpreted that way, so I tend to agree with you, yes, sir. And I would
be willing to pull the bill out and make some corrections to the bill to make it more user-friendly,
Speaker 84
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I guess you'd say, and more understandable.
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
49:23
Well, right now the bill is before the committee, so I guess that's no further questions.
Speaker 30
49:30
Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative. I want to, we have
Glenn Gattis
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49:35
tracked down the question Representative Slanker had had about Arkansas Code 20, which is a public health code, and this is all new wording for the proposed legislation, and it comes under the Arkansas title as a public health code. So since this is all new language towards that code, there's no reason to try to copy
Speaker 30
50:00
a bunch because it really doesn't impact the message of this bill. If that's okay with you, Reverend Schlenker. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I'm going to take a personal privilege here because Reverend Schlenker
Glenn Gattis
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50:15
withdrew her questions because of this. I'm going to let her go next because she has some additional questions. So without objections, we'll let our co-chair take up the questions now.
Representative Mary L. Slinkard
Unverified
50:29
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Representative Hubbard,
for taking out my concern regarding the words political subdivision. But I do have another question here. Does this bill have any legal impact with respect to procedures to implement by these state agencies? What kind of, I know you don't
do a financial impact statement on this kind of bill, but what kind of legal impact does this bill have to be able for state agencies to implement it?
Speaker 153
51:08
Well, basically what it was going to do, you
John Hubbard
Unverified
51:13
know, we had the part in there about the affidavit that we were having anybody who was receiving benefits to sign. We've taken that out of the bill. Mr. Broadway told me that we already have in place E-Verify in the state, which is in place, should not be any, they're already being used for other purposes, and the E-Verify could be used to verify somebody's presence legally in the United States, from what I understand.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
51:47
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, if you have any action on the list. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative
Hubbard, did you read the newspaper account about the young man who was detained or maybe is still currently being detained in Florida for not having legal documentation to be in this country.
John Hubbard
Unverified
52:18
I saw that as been booked in the last two, three
Speaker 84
52:23
weeks. Is that, they were from Northwest Arkansas and they were detained in Florida. Is that the same
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
52:29
one you're referring to? Do you recall whether or not he was enrolled at the
John Hubbard
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52:37
University of Arkansas at the time? My best recollection is that he
was. I can't swear to that, but I think that he
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
52:46
was. MS. Thank you. And I guess the other
question I was going to ask is, since you've agreed there are some
things that need to be cleared up on this bill, I didn't know whether or not you would want to pull it to make repairs
John Hubbard
Unverified
53:05
on that. Thank you. MR. Yes, ma'am. I think that would probably be the best route to take in this situation because obviously there is a little bit of confusion on some of the wording that
Speaker 93
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might change the meaning. Representative Rogers, do you have questions?
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
53:33
Thank you, Mr. Chair. A couple of questions, if you'll indulge me, and I want to state right off the bat, too, Representative Hubbard and I had a conversation last Friday, and I was very clear to him that I do not support illegal immigration in any respect whatsoever, and it
is my intention to make every effort for them to be legal. With that being said, I do have a few questions in regards to some of the statements made within your proposed legislation.
First of all, I have a scenario, but I have a question that will follow as well as to how this would be enacted with your legislation. If you have a mother who has been denied prenatal services because she is an illegal alien, and she gives birth at Children's Hospital in Little Rock, and her child is then a citizen of the United States and a citizen of Arkansas, but that child has multiple defects and multiple problems at birth
and it is required an extended
stay in the NICU unit of Children's Hospital anywhere three, six months. How would this legislation affect that and how can you respond to the cost that would be incurred because
those prenatal services were denied initially that may have prevented this from happening. And this child now is on state benefit of Medicaid. Well, I understand your question,
John Hubbard
Unverified
55:16
with your feelings on this, too. But I believe that to answer one part of that question, the medical procedures would definitely be an emergency situation, life-saving situation, I'm assuming, and that would be covered in that regard. Now, to get back to the main idea of your question, should that
have been denied through prenatal care, this is something that personally I have a problem with.
I don't want to do anything that hurts children. Please be perfectly clear on this idea. But at the same time, I think these people are exploiting the compassion of the people of Arkansas because they know that if they come here and they're pregnant at the time, then we're going to provide the benefits for them. My only reason for even considering denying prenatal care is, I think prenatal care is one of the primary magnets that draw people to this state
Speaker 113
56:20
who are not coming through legal means. And if we eliminated that, those people would go somewhere else to get this care, and we know that there's places all over this country that would welcome
John Hubbard
Unverified
56:29
them with open arms. I don't know if that answers your question to the
Speaker 185
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degree you would like it answered, but... Well, no,
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
56:39
sir, it doesn't, because it doesn't state how these expenses are going to be paid. And that's my question, is who do you think is going to be responsible for this bill when this is incurred? And the services were denied to the woman as prenatal care.
This doesn't affect it, but had she had that care, perhaps this child would have not incurred the different problems at birth. And the child is a citizen. Once it is born in the United States and born in Arkansas, it is a citizen. I understand that.
Yes, ma'am. I indicated to you that I had issues because of
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that particular issue, and I still do. I do, too.
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
57:19
I'll have to tell you, I do, too. Your bill is very vague. vague. I
do have another question if I may. Okay, this follows up also on the, about Representative
Tyler's thoughts as well. You've got children who are admitted to school, and they perhaps could be illegal aliens, but they're admitted to our public and private
schools in the K-12 system. If that child enters school without the benefit of immunizations and exposes the other children in that classroom or in that school, how do you respond to that in a
Speaker 227
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humane manner? How do you respond to that?
John Hubbard
Unverified
58:00
Well, I believe I mentioned to Representative Tyler
Speaker 153
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that immunizations would not be deleted in this bill. But are immunizations, are you
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
58:09
going to define that as an emergency situation then? i think that would probably be another area i need
John Hubbard
Unverified
58:16
to draw this pull this bill off to make some corrections and some wording i have numerous questions but i will i
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
58:23
will follow up later thank you mr chairman could i make a
Speaker 113
58:28
statement please sir yes sir i believe we're going in the wrong
John Hubbard
Unverified
58:34
direction on the questions i now understand where i'm coming from i'm not a i'm not one of you and I'm not saying that in a negative way, because you've been up here, you've been legislators, you've passed laws, you've done things you think needs to be done. Up until January the 10th, I was just an everyday citizen of this state that saw things going on that I wanted to correct. Like so many of the freshman class up here, we have nothing against children.
I love children. I taught school for 15 years. I would do anything within my power to protect children. I'm saying that if someone is here illegally, and you said my bill was vague. Maybe it's vague, but the laws of this country that forbid illegal immigration are not being enforced. If we don't do something ourselves to enforce them, my grandchildren, your grandchildren, everybody's grandchildren in here is going to be paying for this all the way down the line. Now, we can turn our head all we want to and ignore this problem
or even follow some kind of a political party mandate to not allow legislation to stop people from coming up into this country illegally. We can do whatever we want to do. We can play political games. We can make rosy speeches. But I'm saying to people in this state. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. I apologize. You gave me permission to speak, and I'm going
Speaker 30
1:00:01
to speak. I did not give you permission to lecture us when we're talking. I'm just saying that the tone of
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:00:09
this bill has been turned totally around.
Representative Hubbard, would you please talk on your bill? Yes, sir. I would appreciate it. I understand that because I will say I was a freshman down here, and I can relate to your frustration on some issues. We won't argue that with you. I think we all have been beaten up a few times. But we need to stay on the bill, and you have several more representatives that have
Speaker 30
1:00:34
questions, and we're going to stay here until every question is answered, and we're going to give every person the chance that will sign up on this list
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:00:43
to have their say today in this room. So we've got a long
Speaker 115
1:00:47
list and a long agenda, and I'd appreciate it if we would just try to focus on the bill. Point of order? Yes. If Mr. Hubbard has
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:00:55
indicated that he wants to pull the bill down. Has he indicated that? I believe he just did. And if
that's the case, is it productive to continue the debate? Is that your request, Representative Hubbard? I thought he said he wanted to make some changes in it.
Speaker 23
1:01:14
I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I did not hear that,
Speaker 30
1:01:20
but I'm open to Representative Hubbard has to make that request.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:01:25
I believe he's getting procedural advice, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Representative Clammer. Yes, sir. I would like to
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:01:39
pull it for right now. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, if you are going to pull it down, would you be willing to allow members to ask their questions
so that as you pull it down, you will know what the members' concerns are? Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:02:00
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Cheatham, do you have a... Well, Mr. Chairman, Willie, what I was going to... And Ms. Roebuck is
probably proper in what she's saying. I was going to project to pull it down. And what I was going to say is I don't mind if the bill gets out. Let him amend it before
Speaker 244
1:02:15
it hits the floor. But I'll defer to Ms. Roebuck's request.
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:02:18
What it is, ladies and members of the committee, is we've asked the parliamentarian on the procedures of pulling down a request, and it can be objected by any member of this body, and then it would have to go to a motion. So the understanding we had is I was making sure that the will of the committee is... Object. You object? Yes. We have an objection, Representative Hubbard. We will need a motion from some member of this committee to allow you to pull the bill down.
And is there a motion on the floor?
Speaker 248
1:03:00
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm open to amend it. We're trying to get this straight. Yes. Mr. Chairman, I am
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:03:08
aware that one of the problems of the committee members raised something that I think we all understand is a problem with the bill, and there is an amendment in process on that issue. I would say that it's an important issue, and sides, both sides of this issue are here today,
and I am committed to work on this with members of the committee and address concerns, as long as the sponsor is willing to address concerns. to the point, but there may reach a point where the sponsor does not want to move on an amendment issue. But we have a process where this can be addressed. And when you look at the, so my question is, do we not have the ability to address some of the concerns of this committee
to amend this bill here today. Do we have that? I'm aware of
one word that is already in the process of change. Do we have that ability to do that in committee today, Mr. Chairman? The will of this committee, the 11 votes
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:04:29
necessary, the majority of the votes has will to do about anything they want to in this committee. All right.
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:04:37
parliamentarian to make sure we are in compliance with the
rules of the House. Yes, sir. And if there is a change or if I have spoken error, I will correct it and we will move forward. Yes, sir. Thank you. But as it stands right now, we have a request from Representative Hubbard to pull the bill down. I have an objection from a member of this committee. Therefore, as I understand it, do we have to continue on? We have to
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:05:06
continue on. If at some point in the process later he could make that request again, could he not, sir?
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:05:12
Yes, sir. Okay. But it would also, depending on him, if no objections from any member of the Senate, any member of this committee can object and we will continue until the end of the, everybody has had
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:05:28
their say. Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Chair. Representative Pernard. Point of clarification. I think that some of us who have been here a while know that no House committee, and please confirm if I'm correct, no House committee can sit while the Assembly is in session.
Speaker 30
1:05:43
Is that not correct? We'll be here until 1.30. Thank you,
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:05:50
sir. But until 1.30 gets here, those committee members, we're going to stay here and let everybody have their say, and we're going to have a hearing, and we're going to have a fair hearing. And we're going to give Representative
Speaker 30
1:05:59
Hubbard the opportunity to present his case. And that's what we're here for, and that's what the people are saying to
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:06:05
stand for, Representative Cheatham. Mr. Chairman, I just want to make clear, I want to give Mr. Hubbard every chance, and I'm not trying to take control of his bill, but I've got a couple more questions.
We've got people in the audience. And if at some point we end up taking a vote on the bill, I'll be willing to let him amend it later. if it passes out of here, if he will agree to the amendments that we put on it. But I just want to be sure that I want to give him a fair hearing, but I do have some questions when my
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:06:37
turn comes again. You're on the list, Representative Cheatham. But right now, yes, Representative Robbock, you have a question or you just, you are on the list. But Representative Hutchinson is next on the list. Representative Hubbard, are you ready to take questions again?
Speaker 268
1:06:49
Yes, sir, and I would like to offer my apologies to Representative Rogers. I apologize for losing my temper. As we know, this is a very touchy subject, and I do apologize.
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:07:03
Please accept it. Representative Hutchison, you have the mic.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
1:07:10
We've all been freshmen, and this is boot camp. Your first bill is always boot camp for every freshman. I have a few questions.
Last year, the federal government stopped a young Canadian from crossing into the border to attend his own wedding because they said he had leprosy. Do you think our federal government was cruel and mean to stop that young man from crossing? No, ma'am, I do not. And the only way that we can check to know if immigrants do not have highly contagious diseases is for them to enter the country legally, correct? I would assume that would be the best way.
We have had many contagious diseases as cholera, malaria, spring up around our country. Would you say that these third world diseases, we do not have immunizations to handle all of these potential diseases or epidemics that could cross the border? Yes, ma'am. I
Speaker 240
1:08:10
think we've seen evidence of that in recent
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
1:08:15
times. We have children who are placed in foster care because their parents have disobeyed the law.
These are Arkansas children. Their parents are in prison. We don't say to these children, well, we're sorry. You know, we'll just forget the law. You don't have to go into foster care. We don't say that to our own Arkansas children because their parents have disobeyed the law. Do you think it would be fair to let those who are – their parents made a mistake. They came here legally, illegally. Do you think it would be fair to tell those children that we're sorry,
we're just going to overlook the crime that your parents committed? No, ma'am. I know you're trying to withdraw the welcome, Matt. Is that correct? From illegal immigrants that have come into our state or into our country and you're encouraging them to go someplace else. Is that basically what you're trying to do? Yes,
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
1:09:22
this bill. When we took an oath, did we swear to protect our citizens?
Yes, ma'am. So I appreciate your efforts. I think we may be going a rather winding path to that goal, But I hope that we will eventually get there because we pass many laws to protect our citizens and to make sure their health is preserved. And would you say legal entry is one of those laws? Yes, ma'am, I would. Thank you very much.
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:10:00
Representative Robbett. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, I, too, respect your passion for this issue. and I do not support illegal immigration either and I want you to know and on the record like so many in this room that I think we do need major federal immigration reform at the federal level but I do have two questions you mentioned Oklahoma, you mentioned Tennessee and you mentioned Missouri now what about Arkansas
what do we currently say in Arkansas law about legal access for illegal?
Speaker 268
1:10:42
current law, I believe education is allowed. I believe immunization is allowed. And emergency services are allowed. Okay. I just want to take
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:10:57
you back. The K-12 access is a Supreme Court decision, right?
Yes, ma'am. Okay. So I want to take you back in time. I want to take you back to the Huckabee administration. Do you remember Ray Hanley? He served as Medicaid director under Governor
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:11:22
remember that name, yes, ma'am. Okay, well, I knew Ray Hanley and respected his work greatly. And during the Huckabee administration was when the federal government actually gave the states the option to count the unborn as a U.S. citizen
and then cover the mother under Medicaid. So Arkansas at that time had a choice. Do you remember that? Yes, ma'am. Okay. In the discussion, and this all came about and brought back memories to me because Ray Hanley actually wrote a letter to the editor on February 17th, and I read that, and I've got it here with me. And he actually goes back and tells us from his memory what happened at that time. And he said that he was in the room with Governor Huckabee when they were discussing all of this.
And Governor Huckabee said that covering these women meets my pro-life views and it makes sound economic sense. And then he turned to Ray Hanley and he said, let's do it. And according to Ray Hanley, he said that was the right thing to do. Now, my question is, under your bill, would we undo what Governor Huckabee did? Under this bill,
Speaker 268
1:12:37
should this bill pass the way it is written?
At this point in time, prenatal care would be prevented. It would
Speaker 72
1:12:49
be eliminated? Is that what you're saying?
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:12:54
At this present time, yes, ma'am. So we would undo that decision by Governor Huckabee and Ray Hanley? in our state at that time. I just want to make that clear. And then my next question, if you will indulge me, going back to what Representative Rogers said, there was another case that dealt with emergency and life-saving measures,
and it actually is a court case. And in your bill, I do not see a definition of what an emergency or life-saving measure is. So do you have a definition that you have, sir, in your vision that you could explain what that means in your bill? Well, in my
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:13:37
mind, again, this might be another area that the bill needs to be clarified a little bit further. But, of course, life-saving measures will be anything to stop the intimate death
of someone from a condition that is prevalent right at that point in time.
But emergency measures does not necessarily mean life-threatening if they're involved in an automobile accident and need emergency care to correct the injuries that were sustained in that automobile accident. Then that, in my mind, would be an emergency procedure that would be provided for under
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:14:16
this bill. Okay. Well, sir, just to go back, so I'm clear. Because on page 2, line 17, you say, except in cases involving emergency or life-saving measures.
So I don't know what that means. So I would just, I think for me to understand that, I'd have to have a definition. And I don't see it in your bill. Yes, ma'am. I agree with you. I think
Speaker 84
1:14:41
this bill does need to have some clarification to it. and I appreciate
Speaker 75
1:14:47
you taking my questions Mr. Chair, thank you Are you through Representative Roebuck?
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:15:00
Yes, sir, thank you Representative Cheatham Thank you, Mr. Chair and I've got several
questions Mr. Hubbard, I'm going to limit it to one so we can give some less a chance and I'm like Ms. Roebuck I appreciate your passion and certainly that we have a problem There's no doubt about it, but I guess in the area of education especially and other things that I'm just concerned about our state getting involved in federal litigation because of things we do. You know, today, right now, there's an Arizona case,
which Arizona has done a lot of things in this area, are trying to do things. There's a case right now pending before the Supreme Court, and that case goes to one part of your bill on page 2, line 21. One, you talk about verifying the very case in front of the Supreme Court right now indicates that any state law regarding immigration may be invalid if state rather than federal officials are responsible for determining whether that person's status is an immigrant or not and the rights that follow along with that.
So, you know, to verify is another problem with this bill. If we're using
state officials to verify whether they're actually a legal or illegal immigrant, then I think that also clouds the
Speaker 43
1:16:23
issue some. And, Mr. Chairman, would you agree? I would, but after sitting in
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:16:31
here today and having some of the questions about some problems in the reading of this bill that it's a little confusing. I kind of think that maybe what you read on the federal bill
might be a little confusing too because I think you said if the states... How did you word that again? In the case
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:16:55
that any state law regarding immigration may be invalid if state rather than federal officials are responsible for determining a person's immigrant status and the rights that follow. What it goes back to is, and there's some other questions I could have asked, that the federal government, this is their arena, and I know what you say.
The laws are there. They're not enforcing them, and I agree they should. Yes, sir. But, again, every court case is so far. There's several pending that the federal government says, stay out of our business. This is our business. Mr.
Speaker 294
1:17:40
Chairman, I'm through, and I'll listen. Representative Cowling. Thank you. Reverend Hubbard, like I said, we all understand there's a problem. But you were talking about enforcement
Speaker 291
1:17:47
while going on. Do you have a solution on enforcement?
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:17:52
Well, in this bill, what I would like to have done is that when someone comes
in to apply for any benefits, that they bring documentation that would prove that they are eligible to receive those benefits, that they are here legally,
Speaker 240
1:18:08
through whatever means that might be, that they are here legally to receive those benefits.
Speaker 8
1:18:14
Well, I understand that. But say I'm a contractor and I come out
Speaker 294
1:18:19
that way and I've got some folks and all,
and you don't think that they're legal, how are we going to go about that? i mean what i'm getting at is is is there we can't profile just because what they look
like no we can't do that there's a law against profiling so you know if a person walks up to this capitol and comes in and all as long as they abide by the law and come through the
through the scanner and do anything they want to and all. You just can't pull them out and say you're illegal. I understand. So, I mean, as far as enforcement, I think we're doing it as much as we can, and it's a cost to the cities and the counties. Would you not think to enforcement it's going to cost a little bit to the cities and
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:19:16
everything? There is a possibility that it could, but I don't think with this bill, I'm just saying we need to verify is there illegally.
Speaker 294
1:19:26
But of all emails that I've got from folks, then I start getting emails from cities and all and telling them it's going to
Speaker 283
1:19:34
cost them because of this bill. Well, now, are you referring to the part about
Speaker 294
1:19:38
the political subdivisions? Well, I'm just asking you, you know, where is the part that it's going
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:19:42
to cost them? Well, if you're referring to political subdivisions, that has been amended out. Okay. But the state agency,
Speaker 294
1:19:47
there's still going to be a cost to the state agency. Yes, sir, but
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:19:51
I don't see where it should be any more cost than what it is now. If they're not doing it now and they're supposed to
be doing it, then, you know, I don't see
where that should change anything except to make them
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
1:20:10
enforce it. Thank you. Representative Tyler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Hubbard, I do want to follow up on what Representative Slinkard and Representative Cowling were just talking about, particularly if you look at page 2, line 20, that paragraph and then page 2, line 32, I'd like to talk a little bit about the process that the agencies
have to go through with this if we enact this bill in order to verify citizenship and the requirement to document the benefits in dollar amounts that have been provided. You know, we all are focused on, on one hand, writing good legislation. On the other hand, we're also focused a lot on the budget of the state of Arkansas. I'd like to really understand just what are the financial, what's the financial impact
that this bill would have to those agencies? And then one other follow-up, and I'll let you answer that because they're connected. When I think about my elderly friend who does not drive, so she doesn't have a driver's license. She has never traveled, so she doesn't have a passport. She may not even have a birth certificate. how is that woman going to be able to verify that she is entitled to the benefits of this state?
And I'd just like for you to answer
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:21:48
both of those, if you would, please. I am not just totally well-versed on the e-verify procedure. Mr. Broadway approached
me in the hall a few days ago, And that was the reason for me taking out the portion about the affidavit. He told me that the e-verify procedure or something similar to that was already in place in the state, and would I be willing to
substitute the affidavit portion of this bill with the e-verify procedures that they are currently using?
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
1:22:17
And I agreed to do so. Mr. Hubbard, while I hold Senator Broadway in the highest of esteem, I believe E-Verify is only legally, we're only legally able to use that for employment decisions. I believe that to be the case. You might very well be right on that. So I think it's important as we write legislation that we understand the financial impact it has on our state. Would you agree? Of course. Mr. Chair, I'd like for you to go ahead and answer the other questions that I have
in terms of how much will it cost and how will my elderly friend show that she is a citizen Well, I would
Speaker 268
1:23:02
assume your elderly friend has a birth certificate or some record of her birth Well, if
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:23:08
she doesn't, then maybe we need to find out if she is here legally, I guess But, I mean, everybody's got a birth certificate or should have a birth certificate or some verification. If they've been living here their life, then if they don't have any verification,
Speaker 240
1:23:22
I'm assuming there is record somewhere that shows they're in this country legally. So my elderly
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
1:23:28
friend who has lived in this world for 85 years, who really doesn't have a birth certificate because I talked to her last night, she doesn't have a birth certificate. She doesn't drive. And what are we going to ask her to do to go through that she is to prove she's a citizen? I would assume she may have
Speaker 268
1:23:49
a Social Security number. Is that correct, or do you know that?
Speaker 143
1:23:54
I didn't ask her that question, but I
Speaker 39
1:23:59
don't know whether she does or not. Are
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:24:04
you through, Representative Tyler? Representative Clemmer. This is in partial answer to Ms. Tyler, if I have permission,
Speaker 300
1:24:12
Representative Hall. Verification is always welcome. Well,
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:24:15
I just thought I would interject that our homeless shelters here in Little Rock in the recent bad weather also require an ID to come stay in a homeless shelter.
So I would hope that your friend never becomes homeless because you do have to have an ID to come in from the sub-freezing weather in Little Rock. Just FYI. Representative Rogers.
Speaker 61
1:24:41
Representative Bernard. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, I
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:24:51
just want to say I think that you've done a good job. job here, this is your first bill, and I know how nervous you can be down at the end of
the table. Was that that easy to tell? So I'll try to be easy on you. Thank you, ma'am. There have been various questions, and by the way, I admire your passion. I have equal passion for the bills that I try to present and get passed, and sometimes they don't always get passed, but my question is to, since I serve on the Joint Budget Committee as a representative of the House, it's somewhat connected to Representative Tyler's question
about the cost to the state of Arkansas. And I appreciate the amendments that you have already made because I heard from many cities across the state about the cost to them also, besides my own city where I come from. My question is to, on page two, lines 32 through 35, and it deals as a Joint Budget Committee. You know, we just came in here into this committee from Joint Budget Committee where we're talking
about dollars and resources for our citizens. And I wanted your assistance in what sort of your concrete approach to how it is that a state agency, specifically to the words on line 34 which says, who are found to be not lawfully present. How would a state agency, whether it's DYS or Division of Child and Family or, you know,
some of the other state agencies that we receive services from, how is it that they would do
Speaker 30
1:26:50
that? Representative Penard, may I interrupt? I hate to do this. Representative Clemmer, would you back away from the table if you
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:26:57
want to text and use your phone? I apologize, Mr. Chair. I was not texting, but I did. Yes, I was. I didn't mean to. I did say, I'm sorry, I was getting an emergency message and I was responding to it.
Speaker 23
1:27:10
Yes, sir, I apologize. I understand that. I get them quite from my wife quite frequently on the dress up, set up, and shut up.
Speaker 304
1:27:18
Please accept my forgiveness from the committee. It's quite all right if you'll just
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:27:25
move back from the table. I don't mind being interrupted there, Mr. Chair, because
my good friend, Representative Clemmer has pink on today, which I forgot to wear. So thank you, Representative Clemmer, for wearing pink. Back to Representative Hubbard, just on the part on line 34 where it says, who are found to be not lawfully present. Just from a pragmatic standpoint, how would the various agencies actually do that, and
do you think that in any manner that there would have to be the hiring of additional personnel or time or effort toward that, and I'd just like your vision or your pragmatic approach to how that would actually be done, sir. Well, Representative Panars, since
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:28:11
I'm not totally familiar with some of the departments as far as how they do this, I'm assuming that
Speaker 268
1:28:20
when somebody applies for benefits, it could be done at that time if they have proper documentation to show that they are here legally.
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:28:27
And assuming that we can use E-Verify, now, again, I was not aware that E-Verify was limited in the application of it. And I don't know what would be involved in expanding that application to include these other areas that it could be used in, if there would be a cost involved with that also. But I
Speaker 268
1:28:51
would see that that could be done at the time a person is applying for whatever benefits they are applying for,
that they have to have some kind of documentation showing that they
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:29:04
are eligible to receive those benefits. Do you have, or in your preparation for presenting this bill to this committee, were you able to gather any data that actually concrete numbers on that particular section there, 32 through 35, that specific section, were you able to even to gather guesstimates about what that cost might be, sir?
Speaker 268
1:29:33
No, ma'am. In fact, you know, I think I mentioned this in my opening presentation that I have been trying unsuccessfully to get financial data from various state agencies. Some of those agencies are showing no data available. Well, sir,
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:29:49
I would, you know, sometimes when you're a state representative, Representative Hubbard, it helps if you call the director of the agency. And sometimes they do comply with our request. And as a freshman, let me just give you that little kudo that when you're a state representative,
you can get that kind of information if you ask the right person. And if you ever have trouble getting
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:30:15
that information, I want you to come to me and I'll help
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:30:21
you. Now, one further. Would you please give me your cell phone number that I could key into my cell phone? It's called 9-11-TRACIE. So, anyway, just one further question, if I may, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I was a little bit concerned about the definition of benefits because it was my understanding
after being here four years that illegal aliens were not eligible for Our Kids First. Do you have an understanding other than that? I don't have an understanding as
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:31:02
far as any specific figures that would be available because, again, this
is part of the information that I've tried to get that was not made available to us in my limited authority to find that information.
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:31:20
Well, let me just help you there. In my preparation to vet your bill before this committee, I did check, and it is my understanding that they are not eligible for our kids first, but they are eligible for the prenatal care that was mentioned, which I'm supportive of it for that baby who may potentially be a United States citizen. So I just want to share that with you.
And, again, if you have problems getting information, just call me. Thank you, sir. I will certainly keep that in mind. Thank you,
Speaker 312
1:32:02
ma'am. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Representative Lee. I'm in my non-expert mode right now, my non-advisory mode. I have an amendment I'd like to offer
Speaker 269
1:32:16
at this time. We'll pass out the amendment. Thank you very much. Thanks.
Speaker 312
1:32:34
It addresses one of the things we just discussed a few minutes ago, deletes or on page 1 and
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:32:43
adds and. Representative Lee, can you just hold up and let's make sure everybody has a copy
Speaker 30
1:32:49
because we don't want any. We're trying to narrow these questions down, if we may. Okay, does everybody
Speaker 317
1:32:57
have a copy? Okay, Representative Lee. Your turn. MS. Line 34, page 1, it switches the word OR to AND.
That was one of the things that was discussed. Mr. Representative Hubbard,
Speaker 312
1:33:21
did you see that? Yes, ma'am, I see that. Would you be comfortable accepting, I
Speaker 240
1:33:30
mean, this is a friendly amendment? Mine 34. Yes, ma'am, but now some of the confusion, I think, was regarding the part about making the United States citizenship also a requirement.
Speaker 268
1:33:39
And to me, I don't think that has to be a requirement just to be a U.S. citizen, but they have to be here legally in whatever designated manner.
Speaker 320
1:33:53
do I make myself clear on that I mean okay okay yes you did
Speaker 312
1:33:59
I was just trying to be helpful obviously I'm not the expert that can advise that you thought I was
Speaker 30
1:34:05
are you are you withdrawing your are you still off on your amendment are
you still okay we're up
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:34:16
in Garner I have a question
of the sponsor regarding this amendment, Mr. Fire away. Mr. Hubbard, would you agree that by substituting the word and for are that the intent of your bill is clarified because both of those conditions would have to be met that a person would not be a U.S. citizen and would who is present in the United States illegally, and that
That would exempt a resident who is not a citizen because they would be in the country legally. You would have to both be not a U.S. citizen and you would have to be here illegally. Yes, sir. I understand. Yes, I agree. So would you think that that would be a friendly amendment that you might welcome? I think I agree with you, yes, sir. Thank you. Any
Speaker 30
1:35:15
other questions on the amendment offered by Representative Lee?
If not, what's the will of the committee?
Speaker 269
1:35:21
Representative Lee makes a motion to do pass as an amendment. Any more
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:35:27
discussion? Representative Bernard? I have a question, if the chair may allow. I appreciate
Representative Lee's effort here. And it may fall short because if you amend that on line 34, I would think if Mr. Hubbard accepts it as a friendly amendment, that you would therefore have to amend section 3 line
6 and change that to and also. So Representative Lee, I'll just speak to that as further clarification on your amendment offering. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Lee, you have a follow-up? May I ask the expert in
Speaker 106
1:36:08
the room? Can we do this on a verbal
Speaker 312
1:36:11
amendment or does it have to be in writing? It has to be in writing. It has to be in writing to be passed by this body.
You got it. Okie doke. I think we're rolling then. We can get this one and I'll call Brent Gasper, and have the second one written up. We'll be
Speaker 30
1:36:44
here, Johnson. Okay. Representative Garner, are you through with your questions? I am, Mr. Chairman.
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:36:50
Thank you. Representative Hubbard, that's only any more questions from the committee.
Speaker 23
1:36:55
On the amendment, I'm sorry. Any more questions on
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:37:02
the amendment? No more. We have a motion to do pass the amendment, Representative Lee. All in favor say aye. All opposed? The amendment has been adopted,
Speaker 30
1:37:12
Representative Hubbard. Now, any questions on the bill of Representative Hubbard? Representative Garner? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:37:19
Hubbard, there are many issues in this bill, but I did want to bring out one.
There's been some question about immunization, and help me, and I
hope that maybe some others who might know this question, if you don't know the answer to this question, maybe some others, because we're all kind of working together here now, trying to get the intent of this as clear as possible. But it's my understanding that K-12 is a federal law that children are going to go to school, even if they are the children of illegal aliens in our state.
Do you agree that that is the law and that your bill doesn't in any way prevent that? Correct, sir. And do we have laws that require in this state that children who attend school must receive certain immunizations? Yes, sir. So in order to comply with the federal law, there would be immunizations required of children regardless of their parents' status.
Is that correct? Yes, sir. And would your bill then also require the agency to look at the status of those children, I guess? When children go to school, when they sign up, don't parents provide birth certificates? Do parents still do that? I'm not clear on that, but were they not able to do that? Would the school or the agency be able to say we're giving an immunization to a child that we don't know the status of, that there is not clear legal status?
Wouldn't they be able to follow the cost of that, but they would still go ahead and provide that immunization? Is that maybe too general here, but I hope people get the gist of it because I'm not an expert in that. But would you agree that at least those children are going to be immunized before they attend school in
Speaker 330
1:39:23
the state of Arkansas? Yes, sir. I wouldn't think there would be any question about
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:39:31
that. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Seeing no more of the members have signed up, they have to question Representative Rogers.
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
1:39:39
Sorry, but Representative Garner provoked another question. Your fault. If you're saying that the federal laws supersede those of the state to provide immunizations, then why wouldn't the federal laws in place for immigration supersede what you're trying to do here today? Why are you acknowledging some federal laws and
John Hubbard
Unverified
1:40:12
not acknowledging others? I'm not disacknowledging any federal laws.
Speaker 268
1:40:17
I'm just saying that just like Arizona felt the necessity to enforce laws that were already in place and were not being in place, if the federal government was not, then the state saw a need to do it themselves. Am I answering your
Speaker 307
1:40:36
question correctly? Am I understanding it?
Representative Tiffany Rogers
Unverified
1:40:41
Not really, but I just don't see why you feel like some of these federal laws take precedence, like immunizations, but yet some of our other federal laws that
are in place, it's as if you're ignoring those and trying to put state law in
Speaker 307
1:40:56
effect over that. No, ma'am, I'm not trying to ignore any federal laws. I
Speaker 268
1:41:00
mean, I know they're there i think we're very aware that those are there but uh they're they're not being enforced in a lot of cases i just think we need to to make sure they're enforced
Speaker 248
1:41:18
kind of as a backup plan thank you mr chair represent garner thank
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:41:22
you mr chair um representative hubbard if the federal law
requires that we accept all children into school, and I understand that I believe it is a state law that requires that they are immunized. Are you aware of any other laws that the state is mandating care or the extension of benefits? And did you understand that that was Representative Rogers' line of questioning that why are we not allowing the federal government to mandate that we provide benefits to illegals?
Speaker 268
1:41:57
Well, judging from Representative Rogers' response back to me, I'm not sure I understood her question totally, but I answered it to the best of my understanding of it. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:42:12
you, sir. Representative Cheatham. Mr. Chairman, thank you. And Mr. Hubbard, I guarantee this will be the last time you hear me ask a question. I can assure you it's the last question. And I hesitate about asking it, but you mentioned several times
that you had requested documentation and figures from state agencies.
And, again, I almost hesitated to ask this, but
Speaker 341
1:42:35
Mr. Wilson was here earlier. He stated to me that he tried to give you the information this
Speaker 268
1:42:41
morning. Is that correct? He was here just right before the committee started, and I did not have a chance to look over that information. Okay,
Speaker 341
1:42:48
I can understand that. And he said the reason was that agencies were closed Monday. But I just
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:42:54
want to clarify the fact that they have done it. You just haven't had time to look at it. Correct. Okay. Thank you.
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:43:03
Members, I'm going to tell you a little story here, folks. We may take off of the session, but after the session we're going to come back and we're going to finish this bill, and everybody that's on this list is going to have the opportunity to have their say. So be cautious of how far we stay, because I assure you we're going to
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:43:24
finish this bill today. Representative Roebuck. It's a clarification going back to Representative Garner, and I checked with my legal scholar to make sure I'm right. The Supreme Court case, Mr. Hubbard, that said that we must educate the K-12 is Plowler v. Doe.
I was a little rusty, but I went back to check. All right, in that case, it doesn't say that we ask, we educate. So I guess what I'm asking you is in your bill, in order to do what you want to do, we'd have to actually ask if those children are illegal. So I just want to make that clear that we've got conflicting, we would have conflicting law. We'd have a federal law or a Supreme Court case that's ruled in all 50 states. We're abiding by it.
And then we'd have this law that would say in order to do what you want to do, we'd have to start asking. and I think we'd end up
Speaker 268
1:44:19
in litigation. Do you agree? Well, I do understand that the federal law says that you cannot ask if they're legal from
Speaker 72
1:44:29
my understanding of it. So do you agree there might be litigation if we start asking to see if we're providing the immunizations?
Speaker 268
1:44:42
I wasn't aware that we were going to ask them anything to provide the immunization. We were going to give the immunizations without asking them anything. If they were a student in the schools, that that would be something that they were
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:44:56
given automatically. Okay. So it's clear to you that then any child that's coming into our education system, K-12, we're going to give them that service with no questions asked? Correct. Thank you. Representative Klemmer.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:45:12
Mine is a quick question about procedures for K-12 education. Do we still have to provide birth
certificates for enrollment? I had to for my children, but that's been a few years. I'd have to refer to
Speaker 30
1:45:28
our education chairman if that's proper. Do we? Representative Cheatham could answer that. I
Speaker 344
1:45:33
would have to refer to someone that knows more
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:45:40
about elementary education than I do. Well, aren't you an educator? I am correct, but I...
Speaker 30
1:45:47
Hold on for right now, and we'll find the proper source and the proper answer.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:45:53
Well, can I just explain why I'm saying it? Yes, ma'am. Because it would be pertinent we wouldn't be asking for whether or not they're citizens. We would just, I guess, maybe be assuming, I don't know, about the absence of a birth certificate. All right. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, the
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:46:09
only thing I would say, and it would be probably a little flippant, is the fact that
knowing most superintendents and when they see a child that means state money, they're going to put him in school and draw that state general funds down, whether
he's got a birth certificate or not. But we'll find out legally whether it's right or not right here
Speaker 30
1:46:33
in just a second. We're on a hold. Can we get the answer to
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:46:37
Rep. Clemente's question? You may proceed without a hold, please. I'm
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:46:39
just curious as to what the current... Okay, thank you, ma'am. And we'll come back to your question as soon as the proper source shows up. Representative Bernard? Mr. Chair, if you're on a
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
1:46:48
hold, would it be proper for the committee to stand and stretch? As long as you don't text.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:47:04
Point of inquiry, if we could use our phones, we could probably find out the answer to
Speaker 115
1:47:12
that question. I do not accept that statement thank you we're going to go
Speaker 294
1:47:20
ahead and continue she said continue on let's continue
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:47:25
on but I have no more anyone has signed up or asked to speak on this bill or about this bill so we're really waiting on this answer then we're going to go to the public
if Representative Hubbard has closed Are you
Speaker 30
1:47:39
going to – is that okay with you, Representative Clemmer, that we move forward? Absolutely. Okay. Representative Hubbard, we have no one else on the committee that has signed up to ask questions. Are you willing to let the public have their chance at the podium? Yes, sir. If you would, on the
list, we have – we're going to take – first I'd like to say – Yes, sir.
Speaker 352
1:48:06
Oh, I'm sorry. Well, since we're going to stay here, are you going to order us lunch for first thing along? We may. Second of all, I'd like to make a motion that we limit debating off to three minutes on each
Speaker 30
1:48:27
side. Each side per person or each side? Per person, yes. Okay. We have a motion to limit any comments
Speaker 23
1:48:33
from the public to three minutes per individual.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:48:36
All in favor say aye. No. And he say no? No. No. No limit? You have a fair shot. Mr. Chairman, this is your committee, but we need
to hear from these people. I think we may need to limit, but I think we need to start hearing the testimony. And I think it's your
Speaker 321
1:48:55
call we will limit debate. I'm trying to get the will of the committee. I understand, Mr. Chairman, but you've got to take charge of something. This
Speaker 30
1:49:02
isn't roll call, Ricky. Representative Garner, we're in a discussion mode here, so back off. We may have to expunge that vote.
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
1:49:08
Representative Garner. Mr. Chairman, if we're just, I'm not opposed to per person limit, but any of you know me, when I try to express myself three minutes, I can barely get hello out. So, you know, I think that there needs to be more latitude for the discussion of this important thing. I don't, I'm not totally against limits for those purposes, But, I mean, a per-person limit, I think that might be, I just, my immediate reaction was three minutes might be a little tough.
Speaker 352
1:49:45
And we need to re-chair these people. Yes, Representative Cowan. I will withdraw my motion then. And if we need to sit here at 12 o'clock at
Speaker 30
1:49:55
night and all, I want everyone to stay with us. I'm with you. Mr. Chairman. I'm not taking you right now. You're through. You told me you wouldn't ask
Speaker 115
1:50:04
any more questions. This was a motion. Representative Hubbard, if you would, if you'd step aside, we're going to let the public have their opportunity to address
Speaker 352
1:50:10
it. Mr. Chair. Thank you, sir. Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair. Yes, Representative Kelly.
Speaker 294
1:50:16
The only request that I have maybe from our members and all this, could we take just a five-minute recess? We can certainly do
Speaker 23
1:50:23
that. If that's the will of the committee. All in favor of taking a five-minute recess, say aye. Aye. With five-minute recess. Thank you all. Thank you.
Unknown speaker
1:51:04
Thank you.
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Thank you.
Thank you.
Speaker 16
1:58:04
Let's try to everybody to get back in their seats. Let's get our members
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
1:58:24
back in here and let's move forward. If we could. Before the public takes the end of the table, Representative Hubbard has another amendment he would like to present to the committee.
And being a member of this body, we're going to afford him every opportunity to correct his bill or get it where he's happy with. And that is the purpose of what we
Speaker 30
1:58:45
do today, is try to help those members correct their bills and make
it better. We're passing out the amendments now.
If you'll put them at the blank seats, they'll all be here shortly. There's a crowd outside, so this is going to be a little harder
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:59:20
to get everybody in. Mr. Chair, while they're returning, can I answer Ms. Clemmer? Absolutely. Mr. Cheatham? Ms. Clemmer, requirements on public school, enrollment in public school, Actually, there's a list of seven different
items. The first is a birth certificate. Then it can be a, why don't I give you a copy of this? But it's a varied, varied thing.
We need to explain it to us as a whole. It could be a passport. It could be a baptismal certificate. It could be an affidavit of a date and
place of birth by the child's parents or guardian. It could be previous school records or a U.S. military ID or a statement by a local registrar certifying the date of birth. But I'll share this with you. But this could be one of seven things that they require or simply records from another school.
Speaker 30
2:00:26
Okay, Representative Hubbard, your amendment has been presented to the committee. If you would explain your amendment, and we will let the committee take that up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 268
2:00:43
This amendment, and as I think you've seen so far with the other amendments I have introduced, dealing with the political subdivisions and things like that, I'm trying to do what we can to work with all segments of the community on this.
This amendment, on page 2, line 17, it deletes involving emergency or life-saving measures and substitutes it to read involving prenatal care, emergency measures, or life-saving measures. I think this is something that although I still believe 100% that this is what draws a lot of people into this country
I think in the interest of the passing of this bill I am willing to make this amendment to the bill Thank you Any
Speaker 30
2:01:47
questions from the committee on the amendment? Representative Hutchinson, you have a question?
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:02:08
Does your bill, I gathered it does not say these illegal immigrants can't have prenatal care or can't have use of a doctorate, your bill just says the state will not pay for it, these benefits. Is that what your
bill is saying? Yes, ma'am. The whole intent
John Hubbard
Unverified
2:02:33
of the bill was that none of the benefits that we have discussed in
here would be paid for the taxpayer money. All right, and
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:02:42
in your amendment, are you saying now the state will pay for prenatal care? Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 366
2:03:00
All right, thank you. Any other questions for
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
2:03:06
the committee? Representative Hopper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hubbard, could you please clarify for me, now that we have this amendment to your bill, what's left?
Can you help me? I'm trying to follow this. Specifically, we've talked about our kids. We've talked about unemployment benefits. Now we're talking about prenatal care. We've talked about immunizations. What are we talking that your bill then would eliminate? Richard Harper, are
Speaker 93
2:03:52
you talking on the amendment or the bill?
Speaker 30
2:03:59
because... Can you turn the mic on, please, ma'am,
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
2:04:02
will everybody hear you? I'm bad about that, okay. Okay. Thank you, though. My question is a result of the amendment for clarification. If we need to talk about the
Speaker 23
2:04:12
amendment specifically, then we can talk
Speaker 30
2:04:15
about what the implications or results are at the bill, if you would do that. I'd be most happy
Speaker 30
2:04:25
you. Any comments, questions from the committee on the amendment that's offered?
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:04:30
Representative Garner. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Hubbard, would you say that this amendment
reflects your concern from members of the committee for a pro-life stance that
eventually we understand and affirm that that unborn child may become, if born under current law in Arkansas, a U.S. citizen.
Without that prenatal care, problems could arise that cost much more and that in a response to Representative Roebuck's
urging, you are including prenatal care to address those concerns. Yes, sir.
Speaker 268
2:05:28
here before, I am in total sympathy for the unborn child, regardless of whose child it is.
Speaker 23
2:05:36
Thank you, Representative Hubbard. Any other questions from the committee on the amendment? Do I entertain a motion? Motion from Representative Garner to do pass. Amendment. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say no. Amendment has passed. Representative Lee. Thank
Speaker 317
2:05:54
you for recognizing my raised hand. I have another amendment. We'll start passing out that amendment right now. Will we start doing that?
Yes, I have actually two more. So as Representative Penartz
Speaker 312
2:06:10
pointed out earlier, I could have caught all of the oars and ands, and I didn't. So this one, I think, takes in all of the oars and changes them to ands. Representative Lee, our job here
Speaker 23
2:06:20
is to get it right, so we're fine with that. Just take whatever memos you need. Thank you. And I think I
Speaker 312
2:06:26
might have a mint I can split 20 ways if we're looking at lunch at this point. We're not going
Speaker 23
2:06:34
to have lunch here, folks. We're going to stay into the end.
Speaker 294
2:06:39
Representative Cowley? Motion, Mr. Speaker. We have
Speaker 30
2:06:44
an amendment on the floor. We need to talk about the amendment. We've got to talk about the amendment first, Representative Cowley. Any questions on the amendment? It's been
offered by Representative Lee on 1292. Any questions? Representative Robux? this is third or fourth this is a fourth amendment and
representative has indicated she has another one is that right this is
it representative Garner has a question
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:07:21
on the amendment yes now we have already amended the bill and the subtitle. As these amendments are being passed out, and this is just, I guess, a legal question. As these amendments are being passed
out, we are looking at subtitles of the old bill.
Are these amendments that we're putting on here in any way being nullified by the fact that we have the
subtitle of the bill listed on the
Speaker 321
2:07:58
amendment? No, sir. I do not believe Representative Bernard has an answer
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
2:08:05
for that. I believe, if I may offer the chair
some assistance. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe that Representative Garner raises a valid question, and then in fact
my answer to that is yes, it does.
It impacts the title and
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:08:23
the subtitle of the
bill as amended. My question is the amendment that we're voting on is wording below the subtitle. However, the subtitle, is that a legal problem or is it just identifying the bill? Because I know the subtitle in the heading of these amendments that we are passing is the old subtitle.
I just want to make sure that we're not doing all this work, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 115
2:08:53
Representative Gordon, I'll tell you what we're going to do. Yes, sir. We're going to stay here, and we're going to send back and
Speaker 23
2:08:59
get new amendments written, and we're going to get the amendments addressed on the title or the subtitle that's been passed on the First Amendment, and we're going to sit here and take care of it. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. We're getting ready to start. You're getting ready
Speaker 58
2:09:10
to take care of that right now. I didn't know if I was causing
Speaker 23
2:09:13
or preventing a process. No, sir. We want to make sure we're straight in this committee. And now, is it permissible that we go forward with the public hearing while we're having those amendments drawn up,
or do we want to take a lunch
Speaker 376
2:09:24
break? It is your chairman, your chairman, your
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:09:26
committee. The will of the committee, but I will stay, as long as everybody understands, we're going to stay here
Speaker 23
2:09:33
today until we get this resolved. So it's up to the committee. Whatever the will of the committee is, I am
Speaker 294
2:09:42
acceptable. Representative Cowley. We've already got the amendment on the floor. Well, what we're
Speaker 30
2:09:45
going to do is we're going to hold it then? The issue has been raised on the legality of that amendment. To correct that legality and make it in proper order, we need to have the correct amendments.
So all of the amendments since the original, the last three, are invalid, and they're going to have to be redrawn, and we're
Speaker 277
2:10:06
going to have the staff attorney do that if
Speaker 316
2:10:10
we can leave. If I may be of assistance to you, Mr. Chair. When we say, it says on the amendments, amend House
Speaker 312
2:10:22
Bill number 1292 as originally introduced. So I really don't think, I think we're okay here because that's how it was originally introduced.
So I think we're okay until the engrossing part. I personally think we're okay because of that line right there, as originally introduced. I agree with you, but there's
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:10:43
been some questions raised. We are asking the Parliamentarian for a clarification on those questions because all of us may have spoken out of order on this. So if it's okay with the committee, I would still like to move forward on the public comments and response until we get a clarification from the Parliamentarian because he is researching this
because this is one of those unusual questions that come up every decade. So if that's all right with Reverend Hubbard, If you would step aside, we will go to the public comment, if that's okay with you, sir. Mr. Chair. Yes. Who's on that? Representative Cowling. All right. Can we
Speaker 294
2:11:19
go back to make a motion for a limited debate, put 60 minutes for each side? That's a proper motion,
Speaker 23
2:11:25
non-debatable. All in favor of a motion to limit the debate on both sides of 60 minutes, say aye. Aye. Any opposed?
Ayes have it. 60 minutes on each side. It's a non-debatable. Okay, Representative,
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:11:40
first on the order, we're going to go against and then for and against. We're going to alternate back and forth. If there's any one member that any person of the public would like to sign up to say or speak for or against, please come to the podium up here. Our secretary staff person here will take care of you and put you on the list. The first one on the list is Mr. Ray Hanley against the bill.
Speaker 219
2:12:05
Is Mr. Hanley here? Mr. Hanley, you need to turn the mic on, introduce yourself and who you're with,
Speaker 380
2:12:31
and you have the podium. I'm Ray Hanley, and I'm here in my personal capacity as the former Medicaid director that
put the prenatal policy in place. As I understand it, it's been amended to allow Medicaid coverage for prenatal care, which takes care of my issue because I think it is certainly economically smart and wise to provide the prenatal care for these ladies. And I see no need to take up any more of your time. I think the amendment addresses my concern. Is there
Speaker 30
2:13:03
any questions? Committee to If not, Mr. Tanner, we appreciate your comments.
Thank you. Yes, sir. Next on the list
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:13:13
is Mr. Glenn Gattis from Garland County, far. That's a G-A. Okay. You'll state your name and where you're from, sir. We'll proceed. Yes, sir. My name is Glenn Gattis, and
Speaker 383
2:13:31
I'm from Hot Springs, Arkansas. And I do want to first state that I really appreciate the conversation and the debate going on about this issue
because I, like you, mostly believe that this is probably one of the defining issues of this legislative cycle. So I really do appreciate the arguments. First of all, I'd like to say that regardless of all the peripheral conversations that are going around here, Still, the bottom line issue is, should we provide benefits, any benefits, to somebody who is here illegally? If this bill were to pass, that problem would be solved.
And then we wouldn't have to have many of these arguments, many of these social arguments that are going on around the room about whether or not we should fix this, that, or the other thing. And so I want to just simply address a couple things. There are a lot of questions about the cost and things, and I'm going to read my prepared statement, and then I'll take any questions. Illegal immigration has become one of the largest dangers to the fiscal stability of Arkansas as well as the rest of the United States. While the social challenges of illegal immigration are complicated and diverse,
the economic impact is certain. Arkansas has done a good job of avoiding the fiscal challenges other states have experienced. Arkansas has solved many of it by having a balanced budget requirement, which has prevented a lot of the runaway spending that unrestricted budgets have caused. Secondly, you, the representatives, have done a good job exercising restraint in spending. However, the challenge is the undetected, unreported, growing cost of illegal immigration in Arkansas.
If we continue to keep our heads in the sand about this challenge, as well as the mounting costs of illegal immigration, we will fall victim to the same budget crisis that all but four states in the United States are going through right now. There are two parts to the solution. The first is to identify exactly who is using taxpayer entitlement programs, and secondly, what are the costs of supplying such entitlements to those who are here illegal.
Arkansas needs its elected representatives to vote for HB 1292 and begin the process of gathering true fiscal impacts of the policies that affect the tax providers that you are supposed to represent. A couple of statistics that I've been able to gather, and I did a lot of due diligence on this because there is no credible information from the state of Arkansas and its agencies. So this information that I brought forth has come from governmental agencies, federal agencies, as well as non-profit organizations.
A couple of interesting statistics to follow is, number one, 21.2% of the households with foreign-born householders participate in one or more of the following means-tested programs. Someone was asking what type of programs. These are non-cash benefit programs such as food stamps, housing allowance, assistance, and Medicaid. 22.2% of foreign-born individuals have no health insurance. The highest participation rates of Medicaid are higher for households with non-citizen householders, which is 24.8%.
These are real statistics that have real fiscal impact of what's going on here in Arkansas. Illegal immigrant population is estimated to be in Arkansas between 29,457 people and 53,459. Now, I understand that this is a wide breadth, but because of the information and where it's gathered, I took the conservative estimates. Now, the cost for illegal immigrant for state services alone is $706.80 per taxpayer.
That's per taxpayer in Arkansas, which comes up to an accumulative total of $20.8 million as a minimum figure. The cost per illegal immigrant for education is $37.3 million to the state of Arkansas. The cost per U.S. born child of an illegal alien in education is $52.2 million. The cost of an illegal alien incarceration rate in Arkansas is estimated to be $96.8 million.
The total estimated annual cost of illegal immigration in Arkansas is between $207.1 million annually to $224.1 million annually for the state of Arkansas. The estimated cost in 2020 will be as high as $356 million. We must make some decisions about how we're going to pay for it. We must make decisions about what is our priority in Arkansas.
The cost of illegal immigration is undeniable. The challenge is how do we solve it. The first is what we're asking you to do, is to actually count the cost. So we know how to fix the challenges that face us in a compassionate and effective way. The fiscal challenges that face Arkansas are looming and growing and won't go away. We must begin the process of saving where we can so we can provide to the legal citizens of Arkansas the benefits they deserve and the benefits they pay for.
HB 1292 is that start. In closing, the real question is, who do our elected representatives serve? Do you serve the people of Arkansas, or do you serve the people who are here illegally and have willfully broken the law of Arkansas and the United States. Arkansans are watching, and they're hoping that everyone will make the right decision. Thank you very much. Sir,
Speaker 30
2:19:49
did you state what organization you're with, or I did not hear it.
Speaker 383
2:19:55
I'm representing myself, and I live in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Speaker 30
2:20:10
Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Next on the list is Bishop
Speaker 277
2:20:17
Anthony Taylor, if you would. State your name and what organization you're with, sir.
Speaker 385
2:20:26
I'm Anthony B. Taylor, Catholic bishop of the Diocese of Little Rock. Welcome. Thank you. an official representative of the Catholic Church throughout the entire state of Arkansas, all 75 counties. The state is simply, as discussed, not providing prenatal care for pregnant women or immunizations for children and adults will cost the state more money in the long run, and the state will also be burdened with extra administrative costs.
I had prepared some to talk about prenatal care, but that concern has been addressed. As for immunizations, only immunizations at the time of enrollment of children in school has been discussed. In fact, immunizations in general is an issue. It's far less expensive to prevent an epidemic of outbreak of infectious disease than to treat it after it has spread and become an epidemic. And no such epidemic would limit itself to those lacking legal status.
All residents of our state, including everyone present in this room, would be affected, would be exposed to the risk. Of course, no child in Arkansas should have to suffer a disease for which a vaccine exists to prevent. The cost to prevent a flu epidemic with immunizations, whether children or adults, is much less than the cost of an emergency room visit and an employer's loss of productive employee,
including citizens who might catch that disease, a preventable epidemic. Finally, there's the additional administrative cost to the state if every state agency is required to verify the legal status and execute an affidavit for each person seeking a service. I question whether this is really an essential cost the state needs to take on at this time, and so with so many other pressures on the state budget. So I urge the members of this committee to oppose House Bill 1292
for the extra cost it will impose on the people of Arkansas. Immigration policy needs reforming, but House Bill 1292 is bad public policy. Are you willing
Speaker 386
2:22:50
to take questions? Sure. Are there any
Speaker 30
2:22:55
questions from the committee? If not, we thank you for your input. Thank you, sir.
Next on the list is Michael Parker, speaking for the bill.
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
2:23:20
My name is Michael Parker. I'm a volunteer with Secure Arkansas. I'm also a voter, a taxpayer, a father, a son, a husband, and a Christian. And in my capacity as a Christian, I'm required to live by the laws of this country, and I highly support the laws of this country, including the immigration laws. I just wish the federal government would do the same. The earlier fellow that's for the 1292, I stand with him on some of his statistics,
and it was real hard for me to find some exact statistics because there were statistics all over the place as far as the cost was concerned. When this last election took place, I was very concerned about the cost of illegal immigration in the state of Arkansas, and the cue that we got from Governor Beebe as he was running for re-election was that it's not an issue, it's a mute point. There's no information there to provide. And then Richard Rice later on actually provided some information that goes back to 2007
It stated that $196 million was spent in 2007 on both legal and illegal aliens. Once again, the issue is it doesn't separate those that are here legally and those that are here illegally. That was a source of frustration all during the election, and I never could get the governor's campaign to respond to any of my e-mails requesting information on that. The Federation of American Immigration Reform, I'm not sure where they stand on immigration.
I know they want it to be organized and legal. But their estimate is that $224 million a year is spent on providing services for legal aliens. The other thing I didn't say is that I work as a social worker. In the past 25 years, I've helped disadvantaged Arkansans, the poor, the disabled, get services that they should be entitled to. And the disturbing thing about this whole thing is that House Bill 1292 will hopefully
provide some extra funding there to help meet their needs. With all this energy going for and against House Bill 1292, if it was spent on the disabled, the homeless, folks suffering from addiction if we put that much energy into that we would stand a windfall in the state of Arkansas to spend money on other programs and maybe reduce taxes even further in the state of Arkansas I applaud the governor for reducing the food tax and I wish he could do even more and I think that House Bill 1292 will provide an opportunity
to reduce those taxes even further and I wish he could get it during this legislative session instead of just doing it part way But I just, like I said, I live by the laws. My wife came from China two years ago. It took two years to get her here legally. I jokingly always offered that she could just come to Mexico and step across the border, and she declined that she wanted to be here legally. Even as a legal alien, it's frustrating, but I believe she thinks it's worth it.
And I just would appreciate that y'all pass House Bill 1292, get it out of the committee and get it on where my representative, my senator, can get a chance to vote on it. Thank you. Any questions? Are you
Speaker 30
2:26:53
willing to take questions, sir? Yes, sir. Is there any questions, committee? If not, thank you for coming down to your
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:27:02
comments. We're appreciative. Next on the list is Ms. Emily Ironside against the bill. Ms. Ironside, is that a lapel pin for or against this bill?
Speaker 30
2:27:11
If it is, you please remove it. I will. You state your name and
Speaker 391
2:27:21
who you're with, and you may have the floor. Emily Ironside. I'm an immigration scholar, and I'm here as a concerned citizen. I was going to say good morning, but now I'll say good afternoon. First, I want to thank each of you for serving in our state legislator. It's a very important role, and I appreciate you for giving of yourselves for that service. But I am here today that I ask that you oppose this bill.
I had prepared remarks. I have cut them significantly in the interest of time in our stomachs. But first and foremost, I think what has been discussed today is that this bill is redundant. It's the Federal Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 and the illegal immigration reform and immigration responsibility act they already prohibit quote unquote unauthorized aliens from the public benefits that we've discussed today so there are problems with our current immigration system, I concur
but this bill does not address those faults in any way the other issue I'd like to bring up today is that this bill is based on the myth that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, this is simply untrue A 2000 study funded by the Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation showed that Arkansas immigrants, including those who are undocumented, paid $20 million more in taxes than they used in state services here in Arkansas. Additionally, almost all undocumented Arkansans have a federal tax ID number called an ITIN number.
This is called an individual tax identification number. It was instituted by the IRS in 1996 for foreigners who could not obtain Social Security numbers but who needed to still file taxes. Most undocumented immigrants file income taxes on April 15th, just like you and I, and they do this in hopes that they can have a track record of on-time payments, and this will aid in their future citizenship applications. So, undocuments do pay into a system from which they are excluded.
Speaker 393
2:29:22
So these two facts, that it's redundant and that it's based on myths,
Speaker 30
2:29:30
is why I ask that you oppose this bill. Thank you.
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:29:35
Will you take questions, ma'am? I will. Any questions? Representative Garner
has a question for you. Thank you, and thank you for your testimony. You said that use of a tax ID number was to allow illegal aliens to establish a track record of paying taxes in. Are you aware of the question when people apply for citizenship that ICE will ask them the question,
have you ever entered the country illegally? I have not
Speaker 391
2:30:06
seen the application, so I do not feel comfortable answering
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:30:10
this question. Okay. Would it surprise you to know that when people apply for citizenship? But you said you were an immigration scholar. Is that correct? Correct. Not
an attorney. Okay. Would it surprise you to know that when people apply for citizenship and they go into ICE that they are asked, have you ever entered the country illegally?
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:30:38
not surprise me that that question is asked. So because I have knowledge of someone who tried, who was in
the United States and fell in love and was going to marry someone, and he actually advised her to go back to Mexico to enter legally. And on her application, during her application process, she was asked had she ever been in the country illegally,
and she answered honestly, and her application was moved to the back of the line even though she was trying to now enter the country legally to get married. So I don't, I really, I wonder about your statement that people are receiving tax ID numbers to pay taxes And I'm not necessarily disputing that, but the idea that they would be doing that to establish a track record
Speaker 398
2:31:40
to apply for citizenship, I question that.
Speaker 397
2:31:44
Can you clarify that? Well, I believe there are many requirements for citizenship. This is one tactic that they are
Speaker 400
2:31:52
taking. It's a resource that they have at their disposal to
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:31:57
be able to apply for an ITI number and pay taxes based on that. Yes, ma'am, but in terms of applying for citizenship, you're testifying that you're not aware that applicants are being
Speaker 11
2:32:08
questioned about whether they have ever been in the United States
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:32:13
illegally? With all due respect, sir, I'm not sure that that is relevant to this bill. But you said that people are paying taxes and getting tax ID numbers to establish a track record of paying taxes as a means to make the case to apply for citizenship.
So I'm just asking you about your testimony with regards to the bill. I
Speaker 397
2:32:36
believe I bring that point up to demonstrate that they are paying taxes into our system to
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:32:44
are excluded. Okay, so your statement about using that as evidence to apply for citizenship, you're withdrawing that part of your statement. Well, the point of the statement was to
Speaker 397
2:32:56
demonstrate that they are paying into the system. Okay, thank you very much.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:33:02
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Hutchison. Thank you for coming, Ms. Ironside. Since you are an expert on immigration, maybe you could tell us what diseases would an immigrant or someone trying to enter our country, what diseases would prohibit them from coming,
that the authorities would say,
Speaker 397
2:33:35
no, you cannot come? Well, I'm not going to be an expert on the diseases, but what I can tell you is that the concern, I believe, that is why you're bringing up this
Speaker 391
2:33:49
question is whether or not legal, people who enter legally go through the medical inspections. actually only those who enter in with immigrant intent go through the medical inspections to which you might be referring non-immigrant entries, student statuses
visitor statuses, temporary workers they actually don't go through any type of medical inspection that I'm aware of I know there's some legal attorneys in this room that might be able to answer that question more thoroughly Well, I
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:34:17
was surprised then that this young Canadian man was stopped because he was just coming here for a few days for a wedding, yet they stopped him because of his problem with leprosy. So it seems like he wouldn't have fallen into that category that you just mentioned.
I'm not familiar with that case. Would you agree that anyone who comes across the board illegally has not even been asked
Speaker 397
2:34:44
about their health problems? I would agree with that statement because, yes, they haven't gone through any legal point
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:34:59
of entry, correct? Thank you. Representative Chatham. Mr. Chairman, there's been a couple of questions just recently concerning health issues,
and I think I saw Mr. Havelson here in the room.
I'd like him to come, if it's proper, to come to the end of the table and just address the health impact since we've talked about that in the last two questions. Is that proper? I
Speaker 30
2:35:17
think that's proper, but we'll wait until the committee gets
through with the current. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Any other questions to our witness or citizen? Thank you, ma'am, for attending. Is Dr. Havison here on the request of Representative Cheatham? I didn't.
No. No. This is informational, I presume. Is that right, Representative
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:35:46
Cheatham? That is correct, Mr. Chairman. It should not count as part
Glenn Gattis
Unverified
2:35:50
of time either side. Okay. Thank you. Representative Harrison, would you state your name and what position you hold in the state? And you have some questions, I believe, from Representative Cheatham.
Speaker 406
2:36:01
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm Dr. Paul Halberson. I serve
Speaker 407
2:36:03
as the state health officer. I'm happy to answer questions on behalf of the committee. Representative Cheatham, you have the...
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:36:11
MR. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to have you
Speaker 268
2:36:17
done any studies or can you have any figures or issues that have been brought forward to you in your
Speaker 408
2:36:25
position because of illegal immigration? MR. Mr. Cheatham, thank you. One of the concerns that the Health Department
Speaker 409
2:36:33
has with this particular bill, and again, we're not expressing an opinion at all related to the policy issues related to immigration, But we are concerned in particular about the issues around communicable disease.
The reality is that bugs don't check passports and that if we're going to in any way impede the ability of the health department or health providers in our state to either diagnose or to treat early the
Speaker 408
2:37:07
diseases that, in fact, are communicable, and there are a number of that have been mentioned, many of which, by the way, including our common flu, where an individual actually is infectious before they become symptomatic.
Speaker 406
2:37:22
We know that immunizations can and do
Speaker 30
2:37:27
reduce. Dr. Harrison, excuse me, Representative Cheatham, would you ask pointed questions And, Dr. Harrison, will you answer directly on those questions only? Yes, sir.
Speaker 128
2:37:39
Thank you. I guess my question, Paul, would be have you all
Speaker 408
2:37:46
looked at cost issues associated with? We have looked specifically at there have not been cost studies done looking
specifically at Arkansas undocumented aliens. What
Speaker 409
2:37:58
we do have studies on are the effects of not treating, not diagnosing early infectious diseases and communicable diseases that might arise. And those costs are multiples of the cost of treating a disease early, whether that's tuberculosis or sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV and other diseases of that nature.
And those costs of waiting until a person becomes near death where they would have to be treated at a hospital are substantially higher to society as well as creating enormous risk to the public in terms of passing on a disease that could otherwise be treated at a much earlier point in the disease state. So basically what you're saying is there is
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:38:57
evidence that people crossing the border could bring issues to the people of the state of Arkansas,
but to protect the people of Arkansas, the legal residents, that we need to do things that would create cost savings.
Speaker 408
2:39:14
Right. Right. Particularly as it relates to if you look at the activities of the
Speaker 409
2:39:19
Arkansas Department of Health with over 94 health units throughout our state, if a person comes in, for example, with a sexually transmitted disease, it is in everyone's best interest to have that disease treated early, specifically as it relates to HIV, but also other sexually transmitted
diseases, but also tuberculosis and other diseases that are amenable to early treatment that would otherwise help protect others that may not be at all interested in this topic but might be susceptible because of the transmissibility of the disease. So that is one very important issue, and I appreciate the issues related to prenatal care which have already been dealt with. But in some ways, Representative Cheatham, it goes to this old axiom, which I truly believe
in, that, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And I think that this particular issue is important to keep in mind when we think about communicable diseases that might actually be missed or allowed to continue without proper abatement.
Speaker 268
2:40:25
Thank you, Dr. Havelson. and I kind of want to shake your ground because
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:40:31
you're not supposed to be speaking far against the bill, but I guess the question I really want to ask is on some of the health centers, if an illegal immigrant comes in to one of those centers
and they don't have any kind of state aid or federal aid that can be used, but they have a paycheck, don't they use sliding fees in these centers? And actually, an undocumented immigrant could actually pay more than one of
Speaker 268
2:41:01
our residents who is on state or federal Medicare or Medicaid systems. Is that not correct? Yes, that's right. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Halverson. Representative Garner. Representative Garner.
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:41:14
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Halverson, are you in
communication with your counterparts in Oklahoma, Tennessee that have passed similar laws. Yes, sir. And have they, have those laws restricted the very care that
you're saying is preventative of wider spreading disease here in Arkansas?
Speaker 409
2:41:47
I'm not able to tell you specifically of which state, But there has been, as I've spoken with my colleagues in those states, there has been a chilling effect on the people coming
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:42:05
diseases. Wouldn't you say, wouldn't it be true that
people who have a disease seek medical treatment most, I mean, if it's available, they're going to go where medical treatment is available,
and would that not mean that if you're providing that, that we would have
persons leaving Oklahoma and Tennessee and coming to Arkansas to be
Speaker 407
2:42:30
treated? MR. We do keep track of the number of people that are coming from out of state to receive services,
Speaker 406
2:42:39
and it's not a big number, sir. MR. You ask people coming in? MR.
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:42:44
We ask them for their address. For their address? Yes. But, I mean, if they left Oklahoma because treatment is not there
and they come and stay in Arkansas and then they come in to get treatment for this disease, I mean, do
you think they're going to give you an address? I mean, if they're undocumented illegal aliens, they're going to give you a valid address? of? They do every day, sir. Okay.
And would you concede that if services
are not being provided in Oklahoma and Tennessee, that the fact that they're being provided in Arkansas
would be an attractant to people who are illegal aliens
Speaker 408
2:43:32
seeking aid? It's very rare that you would find people that would indicate they moved on the – for the basis of the treatment of infectious disease. In fact, one of the difficulties that we have, Mr. Gardner, in terms of addressing people that have, in particular, things
Speaker 409
2:43:50
like HIV and STD is getting them tested to begin with. And so, frankly, it's in the public's best interest to attract people,
regardless of their citizenship, to get tested and to get early treatment. It's far less expensive for everyone concerned to have the treatment provided early. And so, again, the issue is anything that would have a chilling effect on people not coming to the health department to receive testing and early treatment is a negative impact on the health of this state and the people that live here that aren't interested in getting a disease but may, in fact, unwittingly be exposed to
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:44:32
prevented. And you're saying those services, your counterparts in Oklahoma and Tennessee, those services are not available there
Speaker 408
2:44:42
now? Well, no, I'm not saying that. I've said that there has been some impact. I don't, I can't quantify
Speaker 409
2:44:48
that. I, sir, if you'd like, I'd be happy to query that, and it wouldn't take very long
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:44:54
to get the answer. Not in terms of
actual numbers, but which states are you aware of that do not provide those services now?
Speaker 408
2:45:02
There are a number of states that do not provide some of these services, and, again, I can't tell you off the top of my head.
Representative Ed Garner
Unverified
2:45:12
Do you know which states that border us that provide do no longer provide
those services that we provide
Speaker 409
2:45:20
here in Arkansas? MR. Again, I can't tell you specifically, but I do know there has been a reduction
Speaker 407
2:45:28
in services in Oklahoma and in Missouri, as has been previously mentioned. Okay.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:45:32
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Hedgerton. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman, and hello, Dr. Halverson. Hello, Representative. About five years ago, I asked the Department of Health for the number of illegal immigrants that had communicable diseases that they were dying. I mean, we did not, weren't able to take care of them. And they gave me a list, and the diseases were AIDS, TB, malaria, and many others.
They gave me an exact number and the exact disease, and I was surprised Representative Hubbard couldn't get it from your
Speaker 408
2:46:15
department this time around. Again, ma'am, we do not specifically at the current time require individuals to prove citizenship. It
Speaker 409
2:46:23
has not been a practice of the health department for many reasons, most of which relate to cost but also, as I've indicated earlier, the chilling effect that it has in particular
in some of our communicable diseases. So I'm unaware of I think if there have been numbers provided by the health department, They've been estimates, and we can estimate and we do estimate, undocumented aliens on the basis perhaps of the lack of a Social Security number or there's two or three different metrics that we use to make estimates, but they're not exact by any means.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:47:07
So if someone does have a highly contagious disease, we don't call and we suspect
they're here illegally, we don't call any Federal to come and pick them
Speaker 179
2:47:23
up and for the Federal Government to take care of them? MR. No, ma'am.
Speaker 409
2:47:29
What we do is make a diagnosis and treat the disease. In most cases, a communicable disease, for example, tuberculosis, can be treated very effectively with relatively low cost medication if the disease is caught early and directly observed therapy can be instituted.
We're able to actually arrest the transmissibility of that disease and its impact on the population. And that's our primary goal, is protecting the individual and the citizens in our state from communicable diseases. And it has not been our practice to either check their immigration status or to create a situation where we would essentially turn them in, if you will. Again, our goal has been, frankly, to be neutral on this issue, to provide services regardless
of immigration status. And we believe firmly that
Speaker 407
2:48:28
that's the most appropriate role for the health department to play in trying to protect the citizens of
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:48:36
our state. Would you agree, though, that it would be better if they did not enter our country
Speaker 408
2:48:44
or our state with highly contagious diseases? MR. Yes, ma'am. I'd prefer that no one enter our country with communicable diseases. But that occurs every day.
And when it does, we need to deal with it quickly and efficiently in respect to the individuals that surround them.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:49:04
Is there any way we can have the federal government pay for the total cost of taking care of these illegal immigrants who have crossed over because the federal government has not protected the
border? You still will not ask them if they're here illegally, so
Speaker 408
2:49:22
that would prevent? MR. Again, I think it's important to recognize the reason why we do not go through an immigration
Speaker 409
2:49:30
if you will, is we want to encourage people to receive services so that it protects themselves, their families, and others. And if, in fact, the health department becomes known as an immigration agent for either the state or the federal government, and it has an impact of keeping people away, then in our opinion, it has a far more negative impact on the health of the state, the services that we provide are relatively low cost and protect the health
of citizens, not just the one with the disease, but those of us that might be around someone with a communicable disease. And that we think the greater good is served by the approach of having the health department be a neutral place for them to come and to receive services. And again, as you're well aware, we don't provide the full range of primary care services in our health units. We provide probably three-quarters of the immunization, or excuse me, two-thirds of
the immunizations in our state and a full range of services to protect people from communicable diseases. But if they require hospitalization or if they require other more advanced
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:50:52
other facilities. What third world diseases would we not be able to diminish the spread of, that we don't have vaccines or, you know, cholera? I know that has sprung up.
How would we handle those?
Speaker 408
2:51:08
Well, there are a number of diseases for which
Speaker 406
2:51:13
we don't have effective immunization strategies. You know, you've mentioned there are a whole host of diseases that essentially cause diarrhea that, in fact, create the spread. There's issues related to smallpox, to tularemia, to a whole host of diseases. But again, we can get into very exotic
Speaker 409
2:51:36
diseases, but we still have people who die from tuberculosis.
And so that's a very preventable, treatable disease. We also do have people who are still dying in this state of syphilis. So I mean, there are diseases that we can effectively treat, and those individuals with those diseases that we can treat at relatively low cost, it seems to me to be only prudent to
Speaker 407
2:52:07
do all that we can to reach out to provide those services.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
2:52:12
MS. Thank you, Dr. Halverson. Thank
Representative Tracy Pennartz
Unverified
2:52:19
you, Mr. Chairman. MR. Representative Bernard. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Halverson, I've known you for quite a while now, and
you understand my concern about infectious diseases in the state. MR. Yes, ma'am. I think we've made that clear to you through some legislation. MR. Right. And so I respect the mission that the Health Department has in looking out for the public welfare of our citizens.
You're an important contact access point throughout the state. Let me just ask specifically, it is my understanding that when a person comes into the health unit that you engage in no racial profiling. Is that correct? MR. That's correct. That your purpose there is clear in the sense of prevention of diseases, especially
infectious diseases. Is that correct? MR. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
2:53:23
Representative Hobbs. Representative Hobbs. Thank you, Ms. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Haverson. Could you tell me what the budget is for
Speaker 422
2:53:31
your department, please, the Department of Health? MR.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
2:53:33
Yes, ma'am. It's a little over $400 million. MS. Yes, ma'am. MS. Thank you. And Representative Cheetah mentioned the slotting fee scale you have. MR. Yes, ma'am. MS. Out of that, how often or what percentage of the cases will that slotting fee cover
100 percent of the cost for the actual service that's being
Speaker 408
2:53:55
received? MR. Based upon the individuals that we provide services to, very few people would pay 100 percent. Thank you very much. Yes,
Speaker 30
2:54:07
ma'am. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much. Dr. Havison, I
appreciate you coming today. Yes, sir. Next on the list we have is Ms. Debbie Pelley.
If you come to the end of the table, state your name and who you're with, if you would. I'm
Speaker 428
2:54:35
Debbie Pelley and I'm here as a concerned citizen.
Speaker 262
2:54:41
Yes, ma'am. Yorkshire, Arkansas. Thank you, ma'am. You
Speaker 427
2:54:44
have the mic. Okay. My first concern is with the law of the land. We citizens are expected to obey the law of the land.
And one of the greatest injustices there is is when some people have to obey the law and others don't. it leads to a total breakdown of law and order I want to give you a quick example I was a teacher for 27 years if I made some of my kids obey rules and the others did not I would have lost all authority all control and the people and the citizens of this country are very resentful because of what's happening and it's leading to the same thing
and we're seeing law and order becoming a problem throughout our nation in various ways. Now, whatever you say here, the citizens of Arkansas want you to pass this bill. I worked on two petitions getting signatures. And in our area, they did a TV poll, and I know that's not valid, but they did it two different times we did the petition. And 96% one year and 94% another year
said that they wanted to deny benefits to illegal aliens.
Speaker 428
2:56:02
And there are two or three other polls that are just as
Speaker 427
2:56:07
strong as that. One is 67% of the people in the Rasmussen poll this week said that they wanted the states to pass laws when the federal law did not to take care of this matter. Only 22% disagreed. Eighty-three percent of Americans said that we should not have health care subsidies.
So the people out there are seeing some
Speaker 429
2:56:33
things that evidently some of you are not because you're not in the situations they're in. Then I usually have my notes written out better than this, but I don't now. But the other thing is, let me see if I can find my notes. This is embarrassing. Yeah, here they are. The
Speaker 427
2:57:03
other thing is I believe that when you did your oath that it would have included enforcing the law.
And we all know what the law is. And the other thing is there's federal law that says, I don't have the statute right now, but I can get it and ask an attorney to see if I was interpreting right, and I was, that if the state of Arkansas passes laws to give certain benefits to illegal aliens, they can do so. But if they do not pass those laws, it's illegal to give these benefits to illegal aliens. It's clear as it can be in the federal code. So since Arkansas has not passed laws to give these benefits to these people,
then we are in disobedience to the federal law. You can check that out, but I'm sure you're going to
Speaker 428
2:57:52
find it's true. And then so, just like a while ago when Dr. Halverson was speaking,
Speaker 427
2:57:58
by that federal law, he is disobeying the federal law by giving these benefits to illegal aliens without even checking their legal status. then if I can see what else I wanted to do here
Speaker 428
2:58:15
I wanted to go back just a minute to show you some of the problems with the injustices when we were collecting signatures
Speaker 427
2:58:24
I had a dear friend and she's dying of inoperable brain tumor now but she got thousands and thousands of signatures she was at the post office one day and they called three police cards on her They splashed her name across the front page of the newspaper and made it look like she was doing something illegal. We knew she was legal, but it took us two or three days to prove it,
and they printed another picture of her on the paper, front page again, with her holding up an apology that she had gotten from the post office. But do you see the irony of that? She has three police cars arrive on the scene when she's exercising her civic duty. and the legal aliens can march in the streets and do whatever they want to and nobody says a word. That's some of the inconsistencies that are happening.
Let me see if there's another point or two here. Oh, about the taxes. I did talk to some people that are here legally and some people that are here illegally. I want to go back to this first. We hear your anecdotes today about the illegal aliens and their problems. And I have sympathy for them. I have no race in me, no racism in me at all. But we hear all the plots about them, but we don't hear anything about the plots of the American citizens. And when I was collecting signatures,
I heard hundreds and hundreds of stories of people who had lost their businesses, of people who had lost their businesses,
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Glenn Gattis
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Representative Linda Collins-Smith
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Steve Schultz
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Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
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Representative Jim Nickels
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Representative Tracy Pennartz
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Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
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John Hubbard
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Representative Linda S. Tyler
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Representative Mary L. Slinkard
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Representative Debra M. Hobbs
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Representative Tiffany Rogers
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Representative Ann V. Clemmer
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Representative Ed Garner
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Representative Donna Hutchinson
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Representative Karen S. Hopper
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