House Public Health, Welfare And Labor Committee
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Let's see, the community health centers of Arkansas are having their health fair today in the Capitol Rotunda. Actually, I have my blood pressure checked at 940, and it was 131 over 88, which I was okay with. But I didn't get poked because I still pass out when I see my own blood. But they'll do blood sugar, cholesterol, and everything. I only did blood pressure, but you can go up there and get checked and find out if you are or how unhealthy you are. Would be the better way to say it. You know, that being said, I actually think I'm going to just go ahead, since it is set for special order, and go ahead and just hear Representative Mayberry's House Bill 1037.
Just for your own consideration, members, I think most of the other bills we are going to – we'll run through that agenda after we hear 1037. I think most are going to be passed over, deferred, or passed over, deferred. So I think this is essentially going to be the main item of discussion. I just don't want you to feel like we're getting bogged down and see all those other bills. I think this, as you know, is probably the main item of discussion today. But since it's set for special order, we'll go ahead and hear that first. Representative Mayberry, if you will go to the end of the table, you are recognized to present House Bill 1037.
Representative Link, I believe you are recognized for a
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
1:23
motion. Mr. Chairman, if I could, because this will be an important debate, but a long debate, I'm sure, and I'd like to limit this to 30 minutes of each side of debate. It's a proper motion,
and for members of the audience and the committee, that is a motion to limit debate to 30 minutes to be able to speak in favor of the bill, 30 minutes to speak in opposition to the bill
just to expedite the process but also kind of set some parameters to make sure everybody has their say. So that's a proper motion. Is there any debate amongst the members? Okay. If not, Representative Mayberry, you're recognized. I have
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
2:02
a question of clarification, Mr. Chair. The 30 minutes of debate for and against, does that include the presentation of the bill itself? Yes, sir, it does. So the presentation of the bill would be included in that 30 minutes for Yes, sir. Okay.
Okay. Any other questions? Representative Hammer. Just out
of courtesy, could we find out what Representative Mayberry anticipates the presentation is going
Speaker 13
2:33
to take time-wise? Yes. Representative Mayberry.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
2:37
We can shorten. We can lengthen. But I would have one concern in that potentially those who are not involved in the bill would,
but who may be for the bill, would have their time severely limited with regards to being able to have an opportunity to speak. Okay. Fair enough, Representative Mayberry.
We've visited about this before, but if you would like to present your bill and
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
3:05
then limit debate, that would be fine with me if representative link would you want to
withdraw your motion and I apologize to the chair for realizing that at a late
moment okay thank you representative link you want to withdraw your motion yes sir for now I do
okay all right thank you all right representative Mayberry you are
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
3:29
recognized to present house oh did you have a question representative love Okay. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
3:38
Chairman. I did have a question because I'm looking at some video equipment up here. Do we have a video? Yes.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
3:46
We do have a video. I would like to go ahead and make all of the members of the committee and everyone aware.
There are no graphic video. This is not intended to be a blood and guts kind of presentation.
I know there had been some concern about that, and that's not part of this. That would be
fine. Representative Love, I visited with Representative Mayberry before and everything that he is doing is approved at the discretion of the Chair. Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay, thank you. Now all that is out of the way. I believe Representative Mayberry, you are recognized to present House Bill 1037. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
4:22
Chair, and with your permission and permission at the Committee, there are a couple of other
individuals who I would like to ask to join me at the table in the presentation of this with regards to certain portions of the bill that are in their areas of interest and expertise Dr. Novembre and Julie Mayberry as well
I'm sorry, real quick, Representative Mayberry, if y'all would both state your name for the record, please, and then you'll both be recognized to
Speaker 33
5:43
present testimony. Dr. Amidio Novembre. Julie Mayberry.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
5:51
And there will be portions of the bill. Dr. Novembre was kind enough, and this is why we had the special order, actually, was to accommodate Dr. Novembre's schedule to be able to be here, is director of the Revival
Pain Institute in Elkins, North Carolina, and has agreed to take time out of his schedule to be here with us. And Dr.
Novembre is here to discuss the pain aspects of this bill. And Dr. Novembre, if you
wouldn't mind just describing a little bit of your expertise
Speaker 41
6:30
an anesthesiologist, and I specialize in pain management. I've been fellowship trained in obstetric anesthesia and also fellowship trained in pain management
at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
6:45
New Jersey. Thank you. And discussing other parts of the bill that will come up a little bit later regarding specifically who this bill affects, will be my better half in the world, Julie Mayberry. But Julie also has a – we'll talk a little bit more about individuals who may be born with special needs. And Julie has an extensive background in that area. She's been a guest speaker for the Center for Disease Control and National Center for Birth Defects, Prevention, and Research,
their national conference, the National Conference of the Spina Bifida Association of America. She's been a judge for Ms. Wheelchair America, and she currently is a member of the Special Education Advisory Board with the Arkansas Department of Education. With all that said, committee members, thank you very much for being here and taking the time to listen to this very important issue, House Bill 1037. This is the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. You know, back in 1857, the Supreme Court ruled in a case, the Dred Scott case.
And you say, well, what does that have to do with what we're talking about today with abortion? Well, in that Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court ruled Dred Scott was a slave. He had been brought to America and was in slavery
and basically was suing for his freedom. And the Supreme Court ruled that he was not no one who was imported to America from Africa as slaves, That they didn't have any rights, and that they were not citizens, and that they would never be citizens, and that the Constitution of the United States did not apply to them.
There were people at the time who thought that slavery, philosophically, they were against it, they were opposed to it, and they would never own slaves themselves, but that they would not intercede on behalf of those who were defenseless. the abolitionists didn't feel that way though they saw a moral dilemma and thankfully by the
grace of God we don't have slavery in America today because there were people who were willing to stand up
for those who were defenseless society throughout the ages in different nations, different governments faces different moral dilemmas moral questions and this is one that we face today This is our society's moral question. What House Bill 1037 focuses on are children, and we will see that in just a couple of moments. These aren't blobs of flesh. These are children. These are babies, eyes, nose, mouth, arms, legs, fingers, toes, their organs.
And at this point, at 20 weeks, we've identified in science that they feel pain. to the same degree, if not more so, than you or I feel pain. And I'm going to ask Dr. Novembre to describe for us, just for a moment, the scientific research that
Speaker 41
9:57
allows us to know that these children are feeling pain. Thank you. Pain is defined as an unpleasant sensation and emotional experience. From 18 weeks gestation, the fetus responds to a painful stimulus with a sharp rise in
stress hormones seen in adults, meaning that there is a perception of the pain and releases cortisol, which is what occurs in an adult. The physiologic stress response is objective evidence of the presence of fetal pain, not subjective. Ultrasound findings report fetal movements in response to in utero punctures. They move.
They attempt, the baby attempts to move away from the painful stimulus. EEG measures brain activity. This again is an objective way of assessing cortical activity. part of the brain that perceives sensation and processes it. EEG activity is seen in the fetus at 19 to 20 weeks gestational age. So the cerebral cortex is intact to process
information that comes in through the peripheral nervous system, meaning through the hands in the feet and the skin. In the fetus, by 20 weeks, gestational pain receptors have appeared throughout the body. Receptors, meaning the part of the nervous system that is triggered with a painful stimulus. Second order neurons in the spinal cord begin to develop from 10
30 weeks gestation. Second order neuron, think of it as like a relay station. You have stimulus to the skin, it's relayed to the spinal cord, where there's another relay station, and then it goes up the spinal cord, and then from the spinal cord, the sensation goes to the brain, to the cerebral cortex, where it's processed. And that's where there's the perception of pain.
The cerebral cortex starts to form at 8 to 10 weeks gestational age. The number of cortical neurons increases 10 times between 12 to 28 weeks gestational age. Connections between the thalamus and the cortex appear as early as 20 weeks. The thalamus is the main relay station within the brain. It's below the brain, if you could imagine, the nervous system. The nerve comes in from the hand, connects to the spinal cord, goes up the spinal cord
to the thalamus, which is the main pain processing center. And then from the thalamus, it connects to the cortex. So at that time, there's a formation of the subcortical plate, which is specific for the fetus. It's a transitional structure that begins to develop before 16 weeks, and connections between the thalamus and the subcortical plate region occur as early as 16 weeks.
Some babies will actually have consciousness as early as 16 weeks. That's what we're saying here. As early as 10 weeks, there's actually the transmission of pain signals. But by as early as 16 weeks, there's actual consciousness of the pain. The structures required for pain present are present by 20 weeks.
Transmission of painful stimuli is modulated by descending pathways and endogenous pathways, Meaning there is a mechanism that's kind of like saying driving with your foot on the gas pedal and a foot on the brake. Meaning if it's going too fast, if you're going too fast, you not only press on the gas or let go on the gas, you press on the brake. So when pain is being transmitted up through the nervous system, there's actually signals
is coming down from the cerebral cortex to suppress the pain. The fetus doesn't have a well-developed descending structure so that their pain is actually magnified as opposed to ours. If you have pain, you notice that it hurts and then it kind of gets dull. There's a second phase. They don't have the structures intact to suppress the pain. So their pain is actually worse.
This has been shown when we perform in utero surgeries where surgeons, specialized surgeons will actually operate on the fetus within the uterus. Now I'm also, I specialize in pain management, but I also specialize in obstetric anesthesia. When we put a woman to sleep or give her an epidural or a spinal for a C-section, many may think, well, that anesthetizes the baby. It does not.
There are two parallel circulatory systems, meaning it's separate. So the anesthesia that I would give the mother didn't get into the baby. The baby gets a tiny bit of the anesthetic, which is why during fetal surgery the baby itself has to be anesthetized. Usually there's some intramuscular or subcutaneous fentanyl, which is a very strong narcotic
given to the baby directly by the surgeon. In conclusion, I state as an expert in obstetric anesthesia and pain management that the fetus is not in a coma-like state and does in fact feel pain and is aware of what it's feeling when it's being dismembered or burnt with hypertonic saline by 20 weeks gestation. The fetus can perceive the pain, feels the pain, tries to avoid the pain.
The fetus is a person, and this person wants to live. Thank you. Thank you,
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
16:43
Dr. Novembre. And I would ask if we could, certainly each of
us are here to answer questions, but if we could wait until the end of the presentation to address those questions. If we could also, is it possible to have the lights and we have a PowerPoint presentation
we'd like to have? Yes, sir. Thank you.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
17:10
of this research that is referred to with regards to the pain was conducted at UAMS. And here's a big stack of
Speaker 55
17:18
it. If somebody wants to read it, feel free to do so.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
17:49
And is the cap on the projector?
Thank you. Could we slightly adjust the projector where the screen? This picture that you see was one that it's been widely circulated for a number of years.
It's been on the Internet. It was taken, I'm going to guess, somewhere around in the year 2000. That is the hand of a 21-week-old baby reaching out during an in-utero surgery.
This is a surgery that actually my family is familiar with because it's one to possibly, potentially repair lesions caused by spina bifida in an in-utero state. We'll talk a little bit
Speaker 63
18:49
more about that at the moment. Mr. Chairman, I object to this video.
Okay, Representative Ward, or I mean Love, sorry. I'm going to recognize you to
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
19:47
state your objection. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mayberry, I'm going to object to this video, and I'm going to tell you why. We are live streamed right now. That means anyone can pick this video up. Yes, sir. from kids this video is not
that the picture that you show i was showing in a ninth grade civics i thought it was a my four-year-old or my five-year-old that's your preference i would show it to any of my keys in in my nephews so object
to this video uh... i uh... i'd tell you but i
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
20:20
what i i i i i i i i let if i may mister chair this is the only slide that has any sort of graphic image
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
20:28
mister maybe are you you you stated to us i don't know we'd win when you first say it that you're going to show a video
that it would not be graphic did you
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
20:37
know this is not a video and i have a video that is not graphic
a gentleman this is a i don't know what i was not present is a representative love if you'll dress your objections to the chair uh... and then i'm sorry mister chair when this to make the air stated
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
20:52
that he wasn't doing what he's going to show video it wasn't going to be any graphics in it, I had no problem with that. The first slide he showed was pretty graphic to me. I would not, now, he may choose to show it to his kids, that is fine,
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
21:06
but I would not show it to my kids or anyone else's kids. At this time, I object to
this video. Members, I will say that it is at the discretion of the chair what is allowed to be presented in this testimony. Tony, your objection is noted, but I'm going to go ahead and allow the slide that is being presented. I will take that slide off the screen. I appreciate it. I understand the concern, but if you'll – the slide has been seen, we'll move on, and you
Speaker 34
21:37
can continue with your presentation. Thank you. As
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
21:47
a matter of fact, we're just going to slide right on through here. This is all basically the pain capability of the child. We're going to slide through that because it is not my intention to offend anyone. We're going to move on to what current Arkansas law is.
We have on the books right now, we established in 2005, the Arkansas Pain Capable Information Act that requires mothers seeking an abortion past 20 weeks to be informed that an unborn child has the physical structures necessary to experience pain, and that these unborn children seek to evade
Speaker 78
22:25
certain stimuli in a manner that an infant or an adult would be interpreted to
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
22:33
be a response to pain. According to reports from the Arkansas Department of Health website, under this law that went into effect in August of 2005, 1,252 mothers
were informed of this information through
2011. Of these, 562 obtained an abortion, which would seem to indicate that 690 abortions were prevented simply by the mother's knowing of the pain capability of the children. In 2009, the General Assembly passed a ban on the partial birth abortion procedure. That's a cruel and horrific procedure, and I'm glad that we did that. However, it does not prevent abortions at other stages of the pregnancy or even at late-term stages using other procedures.
Now, I'm going to be perfectly honest here. It would be very difficult to find a physician in Arkansas who would perform some of these extremely late-term abortions using these other methods. However, the law would not prevent that. Amendment 68 of the Arkansas Constitution, which we heard testimony from some of the opposition two days ago, is valid law. Amendment 68 to the Arkansas Constitution states that the policy of Arkansas is to protect the life
of every unborn child from conception to birth to the extent permitted by the federal Constitution.
This particular piece of legislation is patterned after a Nebraska law that was passed in 2010, almost three years ago And similar laws exist in Kansas, Idaho, Oklahoma, Alabama,
Georgia, and Louisiana The Nebraska law has not been challenged There are currently two challenges, one in Idaho and in Georgia, with decisions pending In the other states, those laws have not been challenged There is a similar sort of law in Arizona that one of the findings is with regards to the pain capability of the child at 20 weeks,
and it was challenged and has been upheld by a federal court as
now on appeal. The Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act is sound legislation. It will withhold or withstand constitutional scrutiny. Moral conviction, that
moral dilemma that I talked about earlier, and Amendment 68 compel us to pass it. So why do we need this law?
Well, I had a couple slides out of order. 98% or 98.5% of abortions occur prior to 20 weeks. And these numbers come from Planned Parenthood. One and a half percent of abortions occur past 20 weeks. And this is nationwide. This is not specific to Arkansas. We don't have those specific
numbers. And these, again, come from a Guttmacher Institute study and provided about Planned Parenthood.
The reasons why women abort at any stage, either before or after 20 weeks, they're not ready, the timing is wrong, they can't afford the baby, completed childbearing, single-mother relationship problems, feel too young, immature, interfering with education or career plans, less than one-half of 1% of victim of rape, husband-partner influence, parents' influence, they don't want people to know the pregnancy, and then just a variety of miscellaneous other things. The other 7%, and again, this is across the board for the full 40 weeks,
the other 7% is when the mother's health or life, should say or life as well, is in danger. That's 4%, and there are exemptions in this bill for that. So just take those off the board as far as this bill is concerned. And then possible problems affecting the health of the child. That's 3%, and that's at any stage during the pregnancy. And that's what we're going to focus on is the 3% that this bill really affects. we don't have specific numbers
for why these abortions occur in these later stages in Arkansas but we do have studies that show generally speaking and again these numbers that you see they may not be specific to Arkansas but it's going to be somewhere reasonably close and it's when there is a prenatal diagnosis of a birth defect Down syndrome 92% Spina bifida, 67%. Anencephaly, 84%. And that's where I would like to now, with the permission of the chair and the committee,
to play a video. It is three minutes in length. It is not in
any shape, form, or fashion graphic. This is a
Speaker 89
28:35
On December 26, 2001, the Mayberry family of three became the Mayberry family of four with the addition of Katie Faith Marie Mayberry. We knew at 19 weeks of my pregnancy that Katie would be born with spina bifida, a condition that prevents the spinal cord from forming properly in the womb during the first 28 days of a pregnancy. When she was born, there was a lesion on her back about the size of an orange. It looked like raw flesh down to her spinal cord.
The severity of the complications can vary from patient to patient, but usually involves some degree of paralysis and poor bladder and bowel control. She was immediately taken to Arkansas Children's Hospital and at one day old had her first surgery to repair her spinal cord. She had to lay on her belly for six weeks while the stitches healed. Almost a week later, we got to hold her for the first time. she had one more surgery before her departure from Children's Hospital part
of Katie's brain is sunken into her neck forcing the fluid that should flow freely from her head to other parts of her body to back up a tube called a shunt was placed in her head to drain that fluid into her belly the first year of Katie's life was full of
Speaker 94
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ups and downs she learned to roll over at
Speaker 89
30:05
nine months she later began to scoot around the house by army crawling and eventually learned to sit up at slightly over two years old Katie got wheels
what are you in Katie she learned very quickly how to maneuver the wheelchair around objects she loves being able to get around without having to use all of her energy to crawl or to cry for mom or dad to pick her up. At about two weeks after the
Speaker 96
30:39
wheelchair, Katie stood for the first time with the
Speaker 97
30:43
help of braces. I'm standing at the table. You are standing at the
Speaker 89
30:55
She is even beginning to take the smallest of steps. One small step for man, one gigantic
Speaker 103
31:05
step for Katie. Ready, set, go. Oh, there you go. You did a good job. I will walk out again. I used to
Speaker 89
31:14
look at a child in a wheelchair or braces and think, oh, poor thing. With Katie, all I see is pride, determination, and a twinkle in her eyes.
Speaker 110
31:27
Hello. Hi. I'm eight years old and I have two other sisters. They love me and I love them. If we could
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
31:52
have the lights, please. and now I'd like to ask my wife Julie Mayberry to present
Representative Deborah Ferguson
Unverified
32:07
before Andy and I got married and in the early stages of our marriage there was a topic that
Speaker 117
32:12
we knew that we could not discuss with each other because we saw things differently he was pro-life and I was not. There are very few things that someone on the other side of this issue could say that I haven't said at some point in my life, and I've gone so far as saying that if I thought that I was going to have a child that was going to be born with a disability, I would want the option of aborting that child. I am grateful for a few things that happened
in my life before the birth of Katie. And one is that I came to understand that the Bible is the word of God. And it says in there, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. It doesn't say after you were born. It says before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. God has a plan for each and every one of us. Then I had my first child, Ellie, and I got to experience a pregnancy and I got to see at eight weeks this beautiful life inside of me on this ultrasound that had arms and legs
and a heartbeat. And then thankfully I had a husband who was praying for me and was telling me along the way a few things here and there about what actually happens during an abortion. And I came to understand that's cruel. That's cruel and unusual punishment and that is murder. We never imagined that we, the married couple, would be facing a decision that a lot
of people would go ahead and decide to abort their baby. God planned all of that, led us up to the birth of Katie, and we are rejoicing at her life. Katie's middle name is Faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I need you to understand what a no vote on this bill says to me and says to my daughter Katie and other children like her born with challenges in front of them.
What it says is that you value one person's life over another. All men are created equal, and we all serve a special purpose here on earth, and it is not for us to decide. Katie has taught me so much more about that word faith than anybody else on this earth. I am grateful for her life and I hate to think of all the babies that I hear about all the time
when people come up to me and tell me after I've spoken somewhere that they were told their child was going to be born with Down syndrome and their child was not. Think of all those babies and parents who heard that same information and then made a decision based on that. Those families had no hope. They didn't have the faith. And to me, as legislators, I want you to set the example for other people. I want you, you are elected, to not move away from challenges. Without challenges,
we don't have champions. And if you abort these babies before they even have the right to life, You have not given the opportunity for all of us to see what God had planned for this child. Some of those, unfortunately, it will end up that that child may die. But that's when God says, I'm ready to take this child home with me. It gives closure to those families when they give birth to these babies and they can see them and they can hold them.
And they can have a proper burial for them. and they don't have to sit there and doubt. I work with children every day. Katie inspired a little dance class called the I Can Dance Class and it comes from the Bible verse. I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. And I have dedicated the last 10, 11 years of my life in trying to improve the quality of life for these children and provide support for the family so they don't feel alone.
They don't feel hopeless. And I want you to send a message today, yes, yes on this bill. Send a message to my daughter, Katie, that her life has value and that God planned for her life.
Speaker 118
37:00
Thank you. Thank you for the testimony.
Members, are there any questions? Members, I had
Speaker 44
37:11
a great closing, and I can't go through it right now. I'd appreciate a good vote.
Are you willing to take questions, Representative Mayberry? Yes, we are. Representative Hammer, you're recognized
for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The questions, two questions for the doctor, please. Would you restate again at what point a baby begins
Speaker 123
37:36
to feel pain? Would you just, in short form, identify
Speaker 41
37:43
that time frame again, please? The baby begins to feel pain as early as, there's pain receptors as early as 16 weeks.
There's perception of pain processing as early as 16 weeks, definitely by 20 weeks. And how long have you been
in your profession again, please? Over 25 years. I'd like to ask you this question, which is going to require you to maybe go into some your personal perception, but also your 25 years of experience, at what point are all men created equal? At conception. Thank you.
Representative Link, you're recognized. Mr. Chairman, would
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
38:24
it be appropriate now to begin timing of limiting debate if I were to make that motion? It's an
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
38:30
appropriate time for a motion, then at the pleasure of the committee we
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
38:33
can limit the debate. I believe, considering the length of testimony, we might limit debate to 20 minutes to
each side. It's a motion to limit debate 20 minutes to each side. What that means, members and guests, is that starting now,
we'll be limited to 20 minutes of discussion. Let me ask a technical question real quick.
Okay, so it's a motion to limit debate, 20 minutes on each side. That will include motions. The clock starts now. The time is deducted from the member to whom the question, or to the person to whom the question is asked. So if somebody is speaking for the bill, it will come from the for side. Against the bill, it will come from the against side. So the point is that will include questions asked of Representative Mayberry if the motion is adopted. Discussions on the motion. Representative Malone.
Representative Stephanie Malone
Unverified
39:34
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to clarify, that 20 minutes also includes time for Mr. Mayberry to close for his bill. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 129
39:43
Okay. I just wanted to get that out there so everyone knows he'll
be able to have a chance to close. Thank
you. Basically, all it means is that, you know, proponents are going to have 20 minutes to talk and opponents
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
39:53
will have 20 minutes to talk. Representative Mayberry? Mr. Chair, I'd like to request that I be given notification when there are two minutes remaining. I would like to reserve two minutes to close for
the bill. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Any other questions on the motion? If not, all in favor say aye.
Aye. Any opposed? All right, thank you. Debate is now limited to 20 minutes each side. The clock starts now with the next question, and I believe
Speaker 131
40:17
that's Vice Chair Murdoch. You're recognized for a question. Thank you,
Speaker 134
40:20
Chairman, and I don't know. This probably should have been a pre-motion question. The data that
Speaker 135
40:26
you presented, you talked a lot about the national numbers. Right. As though Arkansas numbers
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
40:32
were not available or applicable. I have not been able to find Arkansas-specific numbers with regards to most of that information.
Speaker 134
40:39
That information in Arkansas would be kept somewhere in the Department of Human Services, possibly somewhere? Well, these were studies that were
Speaker 44
40:47
done. These were surveys that were done. There is not, to my knowledge, and someone
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
40:52
in the room may be more knowledgeable about this than I am, But to my knowledge, when abortions take place, there's not a requirement or
a reporting procedure as to the specific reason for that. And so these were studies that were taken nationally, and
Speaker 54
41:07
we just have to apply those numbers as generally speaking to each of the states.
Speaker 134
41:13
Thank you. So the national data says that about 1.5 percent of the abortions that are – That's about 1.5 percent
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
41:20
are past the 20-week stage, past the point of where this bill would take
effect. And that also includes or would potentially include, if you look at those national numbers, the exceptions for the life and severe health issues of the mother. And so those are exclusions that are in this bill. And so it would actually be, it stands to reason, less than 1.5 percent.
I wish, to be honest with you, I wish this applied to a whole lot more. what it does but you know we've saw we do have that reporting figure specific to Arkansas because of that 2005 Act that we know the gross number we don't know the specific reasons why right so and I will one of the things that I meant to address earlier
what we do know is that there is a lot of prenatal
prenatal testing that takes place around that week. For instance, our daughter, Katie, we received that prenatal test at 19 weeks into the pregnancy, and that's a time period when a lot of that prenatal testing takes place. And so you get that diagnosis early
of Down syndrome or spina bifida or one of the other birth
Speaker 134
42:36
defects. Right. And there's, Representative Mayberry, there's a lot of information that you're offering. good information.
Speaker 135
42:42
The video on your daughter is very touching and I understand and I feel
that, I mean, you know, that is what it is. What I'm trying to make sure of in this particular bill that you put before us for this committee and ultimately possibly the full membership to vote on is after 20 weeks, the abortion and the pain associated. So I'm trying to get with the numbers as it applies to us that makes this necessary. You use national numbers, so I think you've answered my question. I understand everything else you're
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
43:17
saying. The numbers specific to Arkansas are the – we do have the numbers that take place
past that point. As pointed out during the presentation, when you come
in after 20 weeks to have an abortion in Arkansas because of that 2005 act, there's a reporting mechanism
there. They received that information. There were approximately 1,200 from mid-2005 through 2011 who received the information and 500 and something who actually followed through with
the abortion. It works out to, you know, somewhere between 80 and 90 kids a year, according to those
statistics from the Department of Health, that would fall into this category.
Thank you. Thank you, Vice Chair Murdoch. Any more questions for Representative Mayberry? Representative Letting. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
44:07
We do just want to clarify a couple of things. Representative Mayberry, your bill does
not include an exception for rape or incest. Is that correct? That is correct. Can you explain why, please? I can.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
44:23
First of all, my own personal opinion, while those are absolutely horrific acts, those
children didn't have anything to do with it. And they shouldn't be asked to pay the
penalty of their life. Because, you know, everybody in this room has sinned, including
myself. Those kids never have. They are the only ones among us who can claim total innocence. At 20 weeks into a pregnancy, you're halfway through the pregnancy.
And if a woman had decided that she wanted to make that decision of aborting the baby, there would have been a considerable amount of time that that decision could have been made prior to this bill being enacted. Can you envision
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
45:24
a situation where a young girl who's 12 or 13 is perhaps raped by a family member and either is too young to recognize that she's pregnant or is too afraid to come forward and tell anyone until after 20 weeks?
Speaker 149
45:42
I can envision that. I don't care to envision
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
45:46
that. Just a few more questions, Mr. Chair, if I may.
I know the bill also includes no exception for fetal anomalies, and these would include conditions in which the unborn child is incompatible with life. Essentially, the child is only alive because it is still inside the mother. Is
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
46:04
that correct? There is no exception for that. Yes, that
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
46:07
is correct. So a mother, if she found out at about 20 or 21 weeks that her child will not survive,
She will still have to carry that child to term, knowing that it will not be born alive. Representative Letting, I think
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
46:20
that if you would allow, I think we've got some folks here to speak to that very issue. And let me
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
46:26
be very clear. Anybody that chooses to make that decision, God be with them. I fully support that. I'm just wanting to make sure that everybody knows that we are going to be forcing everybody to make that decision. And just one last question, Mr. Chair. And in regards to the exception for the health of the mother, you said that there are examples where the woman's health,
that you're allowing exceptions for the health of the mother. But can you be a little more clear? Two years ago, we had a woman write the committee. She, late in her second pregnancy, received a stage 3 cancer diagnosis and had to begin treatment immediately if she were to survive. I've heard concerns with
Speaker 149
47:03
regards to cancer, and that would, as I understand the bill. Well, we need
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
47:08
to know what the courts, how they would understand and interpret the bill. I'm not the court, but as I understand the bill,
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
47:18
cancer would be one of those issues that would be looked at on a case-by-case situation. If it were in the mother's, at the determination of the doctor, in the mother's health's best interest to have an abortion, then that would fall in under the medical exclusion in this bill. MR. Okay. I hope,
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
47:36
Mr. Chair, that perhaps we have somebody in the audience who
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
47:41
could also help address that. MR. And as my wife just pointed out, in many instances, a baby can be delivered early.
MR. Okay. Thank you, Representative Ludding. We're about five minutes in. Just a reminder, part of limiting the debate is be direct with your questions and direct with your answers. So we give as much testimony as possible. Any other – or I'm sorry, Representative Vice Chair Murdoch. I'm going to pass. Okay. Representative Hammer, you're recognized for a question. Okay. I appreciate that. Anybody have other questions for Representative Mayberry? Representative Hank Wilkins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 156
48:20
Representative Mayberry, I want to just follow up on something that Representative Letting asked. You did indicate that rape, incest, medical anomalies of the sort that he described are not included in the bill. Are you at that point saying that even with the possibility of those amendments that you still would want to keep the bill like this rather than amend it?
I feel comfortable with the bill as
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
49:03
it is, Representative Wilkins. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Representative Harris, last question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Doctor, in my notes here, you made a comment that it's possible in 10 weeks that the fetus did feel pain
Speaker 40
49:21
in some occurrence. Is that correct? As
Speaker 41
49:26
early as 10 weeks, the peripheral nervous system has been established.
Speaker 159
49:31
So there is a reaction to pain as early as 10 weeks. Okay. Thank you. Thank
you, Representative Harris. Seeing no other questions for Representative Mayberry, we're going to move to the public testimony. So if I could ask you all to step away, and we'll start with members of the public wishing to speak for or against the bill. First on the list, we have, looks like Ms. Janet Cathy, to speak against the bill.
Ms. Cathy, are you in the audience? Yes. Okay. If you will have a seat at the end of the table, state your name and your affiliation for the record. You are recognized to speak against the bill. Also keeping in mind that several people signed up and we have limited debate to 20
Speaker 160
50:21
minutes on the opposition side and the clock starts now Yes, thank you Representative
Speaker 161
50:26
Burris and Murdoch and members of the committee for allowing me to speak To speak on this issue, which I am very very passionate about. I'm Dr. Janet Cathy I'm a medical doctor board certified in obstetrics and gynecology
And I'm a fellow in the American College of OBGYN I'm licensed to practice in Arkansas and I have 23 years of experience in private practice in Little Rock. When I look at a bill, the first thing I think about is what does this mean to my patients and then how is it going to affect how I take care of my patients. And in both these regards, I have very serious concerns about House Bill 1037. This concern stems from my experience as the treating physician for women who were pregnant
and found themselves facing very tragic circumstances concerning the future of their unborn child. First, it is important to understand that it is very uncommon that a termination of pregnancy beyond 20 weeks is elective. These are pregnancies that were very much wanted, patients who plan to deliver a healthy baby. The majority of terminations at this stage of pregnancy are for a gross fetal anomaly,
a malformation that is incompatible with life. A child with a grave disability that will result in death. An example from my practice, a patient came in for a routine ultrasound at 20 weeks and is found to have a child with renal agenesis. This is a defect in which the kidneys fail to form. Amniotic fluid is produced by fetal urine.
Without fluid, the uterus, which is a muscle, will squeeze and compress this baby as the pregnancy progresses. The baby cannot move. Without movement, the muscles and bones in the arms and legs do not develop normally. amniotic fluid, the lungs which are formed when fluid enters into them, which are formed by breathing amniotic fluid, the lungs will not form. The baby will not survive. If it's
not squeezed by the uterus to death in utero, it will slowly suffocate at birth. Another Another example is a spina bifida, but a very high spina bifida, up behind the neck. There is no spinal cord. The brain is replaced with fluid. This is a child that will never move, it will probably never cry, and will die soon after birth.
If not, maybe it may live a few weeks, a few months, and that time will be spent with invasive medical procedures, no doubt, and this child will endure much more pain and suffering. If this bill were law, these women would have been forced to continue their pregnancies to term even though this child had zero chance of survival because this bill makes no allowance when there is a fetal anomaly incompatible with life.
These women had no expectations before 20 weeks that they would be faced with this decision and no one knows what they'll do when they are faced with this decision. These are women who decided that the pain and suffering for their child would be less if they did not continue the pregnancy. There are many other fetal anomalies, which for varied reasons may not and cannot be diagnosed until 20 weeks or later.
These stories about women who are told that their babies were abnormal and then had normal babies, these stories are very misleading. Again, these situations we're talking about are not elective abortion. There are women who are at or after 20 weeks who find themselves faced with serious illnesses that may not fit into this definition of emergency or irreversible permanent damage to a major bodily function stated in this bill.
Example, a patient with Catherine had what was called antiphospholipid syndrome. This is a rare syndrome in which fetal cells simply put stimulate the maternal cells to attack their own organs resulting in liver failure, renal failure, seizures, death. It doesn't develop. It can't be diagnosed until after 20 weeks. We all probably heard in the news recently of a case of a woman who began leaking amniotic fluid at 17 weeks. This led to an infection in the uterus which did not respond to antibiotics.
The only way to save her life was to remove the source of infection, meaning the placenta and fetal membranes. But because the baby had a heartbeat, Irish law prohibited the procedure. And as a result, a 31-year-old dentist is dead. Preeclampsia, heart failure, diabetes with renal failure. The circumstances are more numerous than you might expect. The question that this bill does
not provide is how sick does a woman have to be and who decides when they are sick enough. From a medical point of view, which should be the most important point of view, this bill needs to be broader to prevent harm to these women. And yes, rape or incest may be something that you don't want to think about, Mr. Mayberry, but these are in case, these are often cases involving children, innocent children who are the victims of rape, who may be afraid
to tell someone what happened, who may not even realize or want to admit that they are pregnant. They may live with the perpetrator. In these situations, you're often dealing with women, girls really, who are mentally handicapped. The most vulnerable people in our society, mentally ill, the poor, are most likely to be victims of rape. Ma'am, I want to just remind you,
you've used up a substantial portion of the time for the opposition. Yes, sir.
Speaker 161
57:08
If you'd like to wrap it up. Okay. I would also like to say that I dispute whether a fetus feels pain. This is a highly controversial subject, and organizations such as the American College of OB-GYN, data published in the Journal of American Medical Association, state that fetuses do not feel pain until well after 26 weeks. There is a difference in withdrawal from noxious stimuli and the perception of pain.
I want to stress that this bill will not affect clinics that are considered abortion providers. Abortion beyond 20 weeks have to be done in a hospital. These are done by physicians such as myself who don't do abortions except in situations such as those described. procedures done very quietly in community hospitals this bill allows for criminal felony penalties do you really want to put someone like me in your
prison point of order mr. chairman your recognized representative Hank Wilkins
thank you with with respect to the testimony of the doctor
Speaker 156
58:20
and I appreciate and it is enlightening. I just wanted to ask if you could conclude because there are four other persons who also want to testify. Yes, sir. Regardless of how you
Speaker 90
58:33
feel about elective abortion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Regardless of how
Speaker 161
58:39
you feel about elective abortion, this is not what this bill is about. This is a health care bill. This bill should not be passed without allowances for fetal anomalies,
for more specific allowances for life or health of the mother, for allowances for rape or incest. It should remove criminal penalties and the ability of outside parties to bring action against the treating MDs. Let me say Martin Luther King received the Margaret Sanger Award for his belief in reproductive rights. Yes, I understand you have a pro-life constituency, but I'm sure you have a very compassionate constituency as well. Amendments to these bills make this bill a more pro-life bill because it
considers the life of the mother as well thank
you Dr. Cathy any questions for Dr. Cathy okay thank you for just fine thank you an update on time eight eight minutes remaining on the foreside and I'm sorry 12 minutes remaining on the foresight 11 minutes remaining on the opposition next signed up to speak we have I'm sorry to speak for I'm going to recognize Miss Lindsay stone you in the
audience okay if you will join us at the end of the table state your name and affiliation for the record you are recognized to
Speaker 164
1:00:14
speak for House bill 1037 I'm Lindsay Stone. I'm here as a mom. About seven years ago, I got pregnant as a result of a rape. And within a few weeks of my pregnancy, I found out that my daughter had a stroke.
And as a result, she was born with a severe brain anomaly. I hadn't even met my daughter, and I was told she would never walk, she would never talk. and I even heard from a doctor she would be a retard for the rest of her life and seven years later she doesn't walk she doesn't talk she is in a wheelchair but she is the best thing that has ever happened to me she has given me hope and faith and she tries harder than anybody
I have ever met in my life she struggles every day she's had five brain surgeries in a year and a half but I do not for one second regret that she is in my life and that she is the most amazing person I have ever met I would not for one second go back even after I didn't I didn't want to have a baby from a rape I didn't want to not be married and have a family and be a single mom but there was no way that I could I regret going through what I did and you know I see her every
day I see her smile and I see what she goes through and you know I hear all the time about well what if they're raped or what if they have a brain anomaly or what if they have some sort of birth defect well that this story is my nightmare I've had it all but I would I wouldn't change it for a minute I couldn't look at her every day and I would have to wonder you know what kind of mom would I have been if I would have just given up because I was raped or because she had some sort of birth defect you know I after seven years I can't imagine her not in my life
so I appreciate the concerns for the bill but you know I'm here to say that all these horrible things that can happen to somebody have happened to me and I would never ever agree to somebody aborting a child because of rape or some birth defect thank you thank you miss stone for
Speaker 131
1:02:28
your testimony committee are there any questions okay if there's no questions thank you mr. next next we
have dr. Linda Worley dr. Worley if you'll join us at the end of the table state your name and affiliation for the record you're recognized
Speaker 169
1:02:57
to speak against House Bill 10 good morning it's a little daunting having all these people in the room. I'm Dr. Linda Worley. I am a psychiatrist, full professor. I come as a citizen, a private citizen. I don't represent any of the institutions I work in. I've been in practice, in psychiatry, specifically. I apologize, Dr. Worley. Could you move your
microphone just a little bit closer? Nobody's told me I'm too quiet before. I think we're all here for the same reason. There's so much love in this room and our goal is to prevent pain and suffering. I commend you, Representative Mayberry and your wife, Mrs. Mayberry, and you for the strength that you show and you have so much love and it's beautiful and it's wonderful. My practice has been as a clinician in the trenches of the gray zone
and I used to see it as being more black and white. I have a full professorship in psychiatry and in OB-GYN because of my 20 years of work in women's mental health between the overlap of this gray area with women who are pregnant and parents. I have seen some areas that I know that other people don't want to see, but my goal is the same, is to have happy, healthy families with love and no pain and suffering. One of the lessons I've learned from my patients
when I've treated the same person who suffered a lot of physical pain with cancer, and they've also suffered from mental illness, of terrible depression. I asked them, which would you rather have? And they said, hands down, I would rather feel the pain of cancer than the pain and anguish of the medical illness of depression. Those of you who've experienced depression probably won't stand up and say that because it's such stigma associated with it. But the pain and suffering of mental illness is real. It is a medical illness, and that's an exclusion in this bill.
And so I ask for your help to consider that as well as you go forward. I see the bill as not being a – I see it as being separate from your beautiful daughter, Katie, because of these gray areas. I know you don't, and that's okay. But it's the gray areas that I've seen. And I'm going to take you on rounds with me very quickly because I know I have a limited time. When I was myself waddling and pregnant as an intern, I went to children's ER in Oklahoma City. I got called there to see an 11-year-old who had, her teacher had found drawings,
she was drawing of a gun, was shooting a man with brain splattered on the wall picture. And that got brought up, and she got to the ER. It took me a long time to get, to find out what was happening with her. But her stepfather had been sexually molesting her for quite some time, and in the past six months had started forcing her to have full intercourse. He was threatening her life and threatened that he would kill her mother if she told anyone. These cases are the gray area.
They're hard. When I was assistant medical director at Youth Home, I cared for a child who was the victim, or she was the outcome of incest. And I have never seen a more damaged emotionally child. She would never have a normal life. Now, your children are so lucky. I'm so proud for that. That's wonderful. But some of these tough cases that we just as soon not see are out there, and I'm asking for your help so that we don't inflict further injury and suffering. The other cases that I'd like you to think about, it's very popular, or not popular,
certainly not popular, I didn't mean that, but out in the lay press. Think of women with severe mental illness who each pregnancy makes them more ill. I think the one that a lot of people come to mind is Andrea Yates. Her mental illness, each time she got pregnant, got so much worse that after the fifth one, she became so psychotic, she believed that God was telling her that she needed to save her five living children's soul by killing them.
And so sometimes the medical illness of a psychiatric illness needs to be thought about as an exclusion. The last case, quickly, was
Speaker 172
1:07:02
a couple, professional couple, did everything right. went through school paid off
Speaker 169
1:07:05
their bills and said we want to have our family and one out of five pregnancies ends in a normal it's just a miscarriage it's sad it's tragic if it's ever happened to you but that happened to them the first time it was very hard for them to get
Speaker 174
1:07:21
pregnant again they got pregnant again carried it further lost that baby third pregnancy eventually
Speaker 169
1:07:26
they were so excited and when they did their fetal testing It was exactly what Dr. Kathy was talking about. They had a baby with no kidneys. They were devastated. And I was involved in that case. And when they delivered the baby, they chose to just induce labor. I don't know if any of you have ever had induced labor. Vaginal delivery? I don't remember what my own delivery was like. I was a big baby, but I don't remember it hurting. And this little baby was delivered early. And the family was there and held it and loved it.
When you don't have kidneys, you cannot live beyond one hour or one to three days. It just can't. And so they delivered this baby. The family was there, and they carried it to heaven. And it was beautiful. But to make her have to carry that the full pregnancy would have been hard. And this bill wouldn't allow her to do that and would put those of us who helped with good, compassionate care in jail. I will end. I can see Don Verbal down there. I'm talking too much. So thank you very much for your attention, and I do respect your wishes to prevent harm
and suffering. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Worley. Any questions? Representative Hank Wilkins, you're recognized for a question.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question will be real brief, and
Speaker 156
1:08:37
I appreciate your testimony and the fact that you are bridging the gap between the psychiatric and the physical. In your practice, have you experienced individuals who are in situations where there are medical anomalies, where there's been incest or rape, and they've been insistent on going through with the pregnancy,
even though they knew that the child might be born dead and might have grave, grave issues. I think in those cases I probably don't get called in because those people have the strength that
Speaker 105
1:09:19
you have and they went through with it to have the baby. I can get called
Speaker 169
1:09:23
in when there are really tough situations to deal with. After people lose the babies, then I help them with their grief, so I do that a lot. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you.
Seeing no other questions, thank you, Dr. Worley, for your testimony.
For an update, there are four and a half minutes remaining on the
opposition and ten minutes remaining on the support. But as a reminder, Representative Mayberry asked for a few minutes to close, so about even on what's left, or pretty close at least. Next,
we will recognize Mr. Richard Wyatt to speak for the bill. Mr. Wyatt, if you will have a seat at
the end of the table, state your name and affiliation for the record. You are recognized to speak for the bill.
Speaker 179
1:10:14
Thank you, Chairman Burris and other representatives. I'm Richard Wyatt. I'm an OB-GYN doctor in private practice in Little Rock, Arkansas. I represent myself, and I'm here to speak for the bill. I urge you to pass this bill on so the rest of the House of Representatives and the Senate can take up this bill and pass it on to the governor. I totally agree with Dr. Novembre in his very eloquent and detailed presentation
through my experience of delivering babies for 25 years plus that babies respond. They respond to all kinds of stimuli, including pain. And any baby that I've delivered at 20 weeks and even earlier, I think, responds to pain. And we're all protected by pain, and I think that you need to protect these babies from pain. There's been a lot of discussion here today from Ms. Mayberry, Ms. Stone, Dr. Kathy, about how this would affect the ladies that are pregnant with some kind of abnormal babies.
As Representative Mayberry presented, most of the terminations for these babies are not lethal anomalies. Down syndrome is the most common reason for these abortions, and that's not a lethal anomaly. The Mayberries' daughter had spina bifida. That's a very common reason for these abortions, and I think she's very much alive today, the Mayberries would tell you, as would Mrs. Stone.
And Dr. Worley's presentation about how the depression of the patients that are, I don't know, forced to carry their babies to term and just other cases of depression, I'll just give this recent example to kind of refute that. A lady that I have that delivered a baby with the worst case of spina bifida-type anomalies
is called anencephaly, and they basically don't have a brain. There's nothing from, you know, like here up. They don't have a skull. And they are almost, and almost is the key word, uniformly lethal at birth. But sometimes they live for a minute. sometimes they live longer and when I gave her the diagnosis it was devastating and she wanted the baby out right then with a little gentle counseling and guidance she quickly wanted to have all the time she could with her baby if that
was for an hour or longer she elected to maintain her pregnancy she delivered at term and the baby lived for 11 hours and 13 minutes. She told me just this week that that was the best 11 hours and 13 minutes of her life and she cherished every second of that and I think most of the patients, if they're just counseled and guided in an appropriate manner, would feel the same way. So this bill, Ms. Marybury wanted me to point out, does not limit doctors as myself from
delivering babies early. You know, if there is a significant medical problem, those are excluded from these bills, and I can take appropriate action to deliver those ladies as I see deemed medically fit. So I know time is limited, so I will pass it on to the next one. Thank you for allowing me to present. Thank you. Would you take
a question? Yes, sir. Representative Butch Wilkins, you're recognized.
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:14:24
Doctor, diagnoses are not always right, are they? That's correct. I had a, I just lost a good friend. Anyway,
Speaker 134
1:14:40
talk about that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Vice Chair Murdoch. Vice Chair Murdoch. Thank you. Doctor, you mentioned the patient
Speaker 135
1:14:46
you just mentioned after consultation. She elected to continue the pregnancy. Do you think after consultation and her being able to make a decision that that made the outcome more acceptable?
The key to my question is the election of that individual,
Speaker 187
1:15:01
the choice. I think it was best for she and I think it was certainly best for her
Speaker 135
1:15:08
baby. Right, but she made that decision, she made that choice, and you seem to be confident after consultation that her making that choice became a good thing. If she chose otherwise, how would you have felt about
Speaker 179
1:15:21
that? I think it is more harmful for both the baby, obviously, if they terminate the pregnancy, the baby's gone.
But it is better for the ladies, for the patients, to maintain their pregnancies. I think that is a – and in my opinion, that's better for their
Speaker 191
1:15:35
mental health than when they elect to terminate the pregnancy earlier. No
matter the condition? Yes, sir. Thank you. Okay, thank you. We are – Representative Ferguson,
Representative Deborah Ferguson
Unverified
1:15:48
you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I'm
just trying to figure out – you said that if they do have, like, anencephaly or a severe fetal anomaly, that you're allowed by this law to induce labor and deliver early.
No, just in general, if
Speaker 193
1:16:04
a lady has a medical condition like Dr. Cathy suggested,
Speaker 179
1:16:09
like preeclampsia, we do have to deliver ladies earlier for lots of different reasons, and this law would not limit that. No, this doesn't address, as has been pointed out, it doesn't
Speaker 191
1:16:23
exclude fetal anomalies. Right. So you're not
Representative Deborah Ferguson
Unverified
1:16:28
saying you could induce labor and deliver anastelics?
No, ma'am. I'm not. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Representative Ferguson. Thank you, Dr. Wyatt, for testifying. Okay. We've got four
minutes remaining on four, four and a half against. A couple more people signed up to speak against of Ms. Kim Arnold. If you'll join us at the
end of the table, state your name and affiliation. You are recognized to speak against the bill.
Kim Arnold
Unverified
1:17:03
Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members. My name is Kim Arnold, and I'm the Executive Director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness in Arkansas. We go by the name NAMI Arkansas. I speak against this bill today because it excludes mental illness and, it appears, suicidal situations. NAMI Arkansas does not take a position on the merits of the bill as a whole.
We note that the sponsors of the legislation have recognized medical emergencies as an exception. However, NAMI Arkansas believes it is inappropriate and harmful to exclude serious mental illness from the scope of the exception. Women with mental illnesses are counseled on the risks and benefits of psychotropic medications. Those who are pregnant face an even more difficult situation.
may result whether they continue or suspend treatment serious mental illness need attention and they can quickly become medical emergencies to exclude this from the definition throws mental illness back into the shadows back to the shrouds of stigma and as a consequence even more lives and families will be affected. I ask you to include mental illness and suicidal situations in the definition of medical emergency.
Don't put mental illness back into the shadows. It's been there
Chair
Unverified
1:18:53
long enough. Thank you. Representative Hank
Wilkins, you recognize for a question. Thank you. Just a quick question, Dr. Arnold. You
Speaker 156
1:19:01
alluded to, and I just want to make sure I understood you correctly, that
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1:19:07
psychotrophic drugs affect the infant in utero.
Kim Arnold
Unverified
1:19:12
I need to make a clarification. I'm not a doctor. I'm an executive director, and I'll make the disclaimer that I'm not a therapist, a psychiatrist, an attorney, or a pharmacist. And there are warnings, I have been told, where medications can have harmful effects or not there are also medications however going off of any sort of treatment during pregnancy could result in harm for a
Speaker 196
1:19:38
mother because of the mental illness may be untreated all right thank
thank you thank you miss stone members we are almost done miss Arnold I'm I'm sorry. Thank you. I think it's going to work out okay. We've got about four minutes left on the fours and about two left on the against, and I think it's going to work out well. I'm going to go ahead and recognize the last person signed up to speak for the bill, Chantel and Patrick Bisbee. Is that right? Okay, you are recognized to speak for the bill, asking you to keep in mind that you have about four minutes left, and Representative Mayberry is asked to retain about three for his closing.
If you'll state your name and affiliation, you're recognized to speak for the bill.
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
1:20:30
My name is Chantel Bisbee, and I speak for myself as a
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1:20:34
mother. And I'm Pat Bisbee. I'm here for moral support. Chantel will be speaking on behalf of our
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
1:20:40
family. I'm the mother of four, and we've been married for 12 years. I'm very honored to speak before you today. Thank you for your time. At 15 weeks of pregnancy in March of 2005, we learned our second daughter had a fatal birth defect, as spoken about previously here at anencephaly.
The top of her brain and skull did not form, and she did die at birth. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about her. We've already talked about what anencephaly is. It can be detected by ultrasound as early as 12 weeks, And alpha-feta proteins are usually off the charts elevated with that, so that's detectable at like 15 weeks. So this is way before the cutoff, just for the record. There is no treatment, and for that reason, most doctors offer early induction, as spoken of previously, or recommend abortion.
And we were offered that, and we were very blessed to have a doctor who understood our belief that every life has a purpose, and we were not pressured to do that. It's often used as an excuse why it's needed after 20 weeks And most doctors that I know of from people I've spoken with Are not supportive if you choose to carry And they offer very little resources or information If you do make the choice to carry to term And many women are even pressured or belittled into aborting
Because they're told their child has no worth We have never regretted our choice to carry our baby to term and it was difficult to bear but we were very grateful for the time to hold and meet our daughter and to be able to look into her face. We treasured every kick and every squirm and she reminded us through that that she was not gone yet. We will never forget the one final kick she gave me as they pulled her from my body. She lived for one hour and 16 minutes as her little heart
struggled to be that we admit the world to us to have that time with her and she was born on August 10th 2005 the chance to hold her meant everything to us and it did helps take some of the sting out of her death to have that opportunity to meet her and hold her choosing to end her life prematurely would not have lessened our pain but it would have robbed us of memories that helped us be able to grieve her in a healthy way. It's been seven years since her death. I've
been in contact with many women who've been through the same experience. I've never heard any of them say that they regretted carrying their child to term but there have been many that have no closure and continue to grieve for years because they made the decision to abort their child and most of the women who did choose to abort that I've talked to have reported a lack of information being provided to them by their doctor at the time of diagnosis and they say that they wish
they had found other mothers who made the decision to carry to term before they were pushed into making the decision to end their pregnancy. I urge you to vote for this bill and protect these babies. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
and Ms. Bisbee. Last person signed up to speak against the bill
is Ms. Bettina Brownstein you'll join us at the end of the table and state your name and affiliation please you're recognized to speak against the bill I'm not going to speak I don't
Speaker 203
1:24:04
have anything to add and I think most of you know what I would say
anyway so thank you thank you okay members nobody else has signed up to speak for against that representative Mayberry I'm going to recognize
Speaker 205
1:24:25
you to close for your bill a little disappointed miss
Speaker 206
1:24:30
brownstein didn't speak i was all geared up
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
1:24:33
for you there okay we'll take this outside a little levity that's what we need here
members i appreciate you taking the time and listening to this obviously there are some heartfelt concerns on both sides of this issue. But what it
boils down to, our founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence said that we're all created equal. Not born equal, not made to be equal later down the line, but created equal. Endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights. And the very first one that it says is that we have the right to life, followed by liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What this comes down to is, under current Arkansas law,
it's okay to take a very cruel and barbaric and inhumane method of destroying a life, a life capable of feeling pain. And, you know, I don't think that is okay. And I don't believe each of you in your hearts
think that that is okay. And so we face that moral dilemma. Do we provide these children the same opportunity that you and I have all had?
It's an opportunity for life. Yes, they may have some challenges. It's an opportunity to overcome those challenges and to become champions. One of those children
could be our next president, or not the next one because, you know, you have to be 35. But they could be president. They could invent a cure for cancer. they could invent or discover cures for some of these anomalies that we talk about. Give these children
a chance for life. I urge you to cast a yes vote.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Representative Mayberry. Members, pleasure of the committee. Motion from Representative Wilkins. Do pass. Motion do pass. Is there any discussion on the motion? If not, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? No. Share rules the ayes have it. Okay. Congratulations, Representative Mayberry. You passed your bill. Thank you, members of the committee. And I'm going to ask real quickly, everybody hang with me.
I know there's going to be a lot of folks bail. We're going to have to continue business here briefly. Members, we've got just a few minutes to go through some stuff. So if you're leaving, please be courteous. Conversation, take it outside, and we're going to continue through the agenda. Just a reminder, House Bill 1018 is set for special order on February 14th. You'll see that on your agenda. But I'm going to move through some of these other bills just to housekeep. House Bill 1098 is first on the agenda. Representative Harris, do you wish to run that bill?
Okay, we're going to pass over that. House Bill 1100, Representative Wilkins. Can I close them here? Do you wish to run your bill today? yes okay yes sir if you can join us at the end of the table and you'll be recognized to present House Bill 1100 and just a reminder representative Wilkins as you present your bill and to
the members House Bill 1100 was presented in committee two days ago and it was amended so motions and any subsequent action is on the bill as amended and it has
been engrossed so representative Wilkins you're recognized to present house bill 1100 as amended
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:28:11
thank you mr. chair thank you committee men we two days ago we listened to testimony on this on this bill we I presented my views on the bill we all questioned me at all the question we had
we had opposition that had all they wanted they presented their side we question them. We vetted the bill for an hour and a half. I'm going to close as it is. I think everybody here understands what the bill is, and I would make a motion for immediate consideration if that is proper, Mr. Chairman. I'm a committee member. Thank you, Representative Wilkins. It
is a proper motion, and it's non-debatable. Yeah, it's a non-debatable motion. So members, You've had a presentation for House Bill 1100, and then a subsequent motion for immediate consideration, non-debatable. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. The motion passes for immediate consideration. So, members, before you, I guess, actually, I'll need a, what's the pleasure of the committee? Okay. Motion do pass from Representative Wardlaw.
Do pass as amended. Thank you. No, since the amendments, I'm going to be honest, just do that. Okay. All right. Fair enough. motion do pass house bill 1100 all in favor say I'm any opposed chair rules the ayes have it congratulations representative Wilkins you've passed your bill next on the agenda house bill 1151 representative Douglas is and we'll be setting that for special order shortly house bill 1172 representative
five is s that be passed over house bill 1178 represented McLean are you here to run your bill will pass representative Hobbs you here to run 1182 representative right has asked to pass over I'm sorry representative right asked that 1183 1184 and 1185 be placed on the deferred list so without objection they'll be pat placed on deferred House bill 1186 by representative Malone's requested to pass over representative Broadway is asked to pass over 1189 but keep it on
the calendar members if there's no other business to come before the committee will stand to adjourn until Tuesday, 10 a.m. Thank you.
Agenda
HB1037
HB1100
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative John Burris Chair
Unverified
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
Representative Kim Hammer Chair
Unverified
Speaker 13
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
Speaker 33
Speaker 40
Speaker 41
Speaker 53
Speaker 55
Speaker 63
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
Speaker 34
Speaker 78
Speaker 83
Speaker 85
Speaker 89
Speaker 94
Speaker 96
Speaker 97
Speaker 103
Speaker 110
Representative Deborah Ferguson
Unverified
Speaker 117
Speaker 118
Speaker 44
Speaker 123
Representative Stephanie Malone
Unverified
Speaker 129
Speaker 131
Speaker 134
Speaker 135
Speaker 54
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
Speaker 149
Speaker 156
Representative Justin T. Harris
Unverified
Speaker 159
Speaker 160
Speaker 161
Speaker 90
Speaker 164
Speaker 169
Speaker 172
Speaker 174
Speaker 105
Speaker 179
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
Speaker 186
Speaker 187
Speaker 191
Speaker 193
Kim Arnold
Unverified
Chair
Unverified
Speaker 177
Speaker 196
Speaker 141
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
Speaker 199
Speaker 203
Speaker 205
Speaker 206