House Judiciary Committee
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Bills discussed (1)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
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SB56
· 1 mention in chapter
Matched: “SB56”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Your amendment. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We appreciate members of the committee's consideration of the amendment this morning. The amendment is just to add co-sponsors to the bill. It's the House co-sponsor list for the bill. So we'd appreciate an affirmative motion. All right. Mr. Bell, will you
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
0:15
entertain questions? Regarding the amendment, sir. Yes. Okay. I'm
sorry. I thought we had a question for you, but we've got a motion. Do pass the amendment. And to add the amendment, to adopt the amendment, excuse me, do we have any discussion?
All those in favor? Any opposed? The amendment is adopted. Thank you, Mr. Bell.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'd like to ask that Senator King, Senate sponsor, be recognized to present
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
0:47
the bill. So be it. Welcome to House Judiciary,
Speaker 8
0:51
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, members of the committee. This Senate bill is not a bill that, you
Speaker 9
0:57
know, you really want to bring to address. But unfortunately, in our communities, in our society, if you do a search of crime or theft in churches in Arkansas,
you'll see that churches are being broken into. There's violent situations. I mean, I think here in Little Rock we actually had a church robbed during the church service. And we know that pastors have to deal with difficult situations out here with relationships. Maybe they're counseling in a marriage that can present difficult situations for them to deal with. We know that youth come to church, you know, and I know one church that on Wednesday night they have several kids
and several of the kids that show up have ankle bracelets and they're under home arrest and the only place they can go is to a church and they're glad to have them. but it also, like I said, brings difficult situations. When I brought this bill in 2009, I originally had put into the bill that they would have to post a sign, much like a business stating their policy, and through the committee members that were here and Representative Shepard brought, I wound up changing the bill to basically allow, I think, a better bill that says that each church gets to decide their own policy on their security.
If they don't want to allow anybody to conceal carry, they can continue the policy that they have today. If they only want to allow certain individuals to conceal carry, they can do that. If they want to allow anybody with a concealed carry, they can do that. And it's the concealed permit holder's responsibility to know if he's authorized by the church to be able to carry in that house of worship. There's a lot of people that have issues with this bill, and I understand that and I respect that. But the biggest misconception out there is that when they see the title in the newspaper, Guns in Church,
they just think that we're making this mandatory, and we're really not. Like I said, we're just allowing each church. And I want to say something. If you have an incident happen at a church here in Little Rock, it may be minutes before police respond. If you get out in the rural communities like I represent, if you have an incident happen on a Sunday night in a rural area, it could be 30 minutes to an hour before maybe a deputy responds. So we're just giving those churches and the individual right to make their decisions on how they want to handle security.
From news accounts that I've read and the information I've got, there's 10 states. Arkansas is one of 10 states that have this similar policy. And other states have provisions where if you don't want to allow concealed carry, it's much like businesses. You walk up and they have to post a sign. So in this policy, like I said before, you don't have to post a sign. I mean, I don't want to have to see when you walk in the door that, you know, Sunday school at 10 a.m. and then a mission trip to Kenya, and then, by the way, no concealed weapons. So we've really tried to address that, and the provisions are the same.
If a concealed carry permit holder carries in there without authorization, the police can be called, there could be a report filed, and they could have their concealed carry revoked. So with that, I would open it up for questions, but I just want to remember, there's no signposting in my bill. Some of the liability questions have been brought up, and I've talked to some other members about that and tried to address that where, like I said, other states have similar policy to this or even maybe a more progressive policy towards it.
And, you know, we're not hearing any liability issues with that. Is this a perfect bill? No. There may be instances happen after this bill is passed, which I hope that we will have to
Speaker 10
4:32
address in two years. But right now, I'd just like to take questions from the committee,
David Murray
Unverified
4:39
Mr. Chairman, if they have anything. You bet. I only have one right now. I recognize Representative Williams for a
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
4:47
question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator King. You touched a little bit on my concern or issue, and that was liability.
You said it's been addressed. Maybe you can explain how that's been addressed, because it's my understanding that not taking a position on the bill, But my concern is whether to make sure the churches who may adopt the policy have a complete understanding of the potential liability they're assuming by adopting such a policy. What have other states done with regard to, you know, insurance premiums, for example? Insurance premiums, I've talked to a couple of insurance folks that are likely to skyrocket. If a church has a policy to allow someone to carry and there's an accident, then the
church can be liable for that accident since they've adopted that policy. What
have other states done to guard against that, or has that been an issue in other states? No, I
Speaker 9
5:35
haven't heard of it being an issue in other states. And like I said, I filed this bill two years ago, as you know. I went back, and like I said, we're one of ten states that have this policy, from my understanding, through news accounts and some of the information I've got from various organizations. Other states have, like I said, a more progressive policy where if a church doesn't post anything,
anybody with a concealed carry can come in. And I have not heard anything that says there's a liability question. Insurance has went through the roof. I mean, as we know, a lot of smaller churches don't have any liability insurance at all. So if this was a problem in other states or anything like that, I have not seen or heard of it. If it does happen to be an issue with the church, they can obviously take that into account and make a policy that no one can carry and continue the security policy that they have.
I have to always say, since it's a lot of lawyers, and I shouldn't say it, I say, well, if lawyers think they can get a lawsuit and they go to church more,
Speaker 20
6:41
that's probably a good thing. Be careful, Ms. King. I know. I'll ask for forgiveness, Representative Williams, as I
Speaker 21
6:46
have to every once in a while. You come to my church. We don't have guns,
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
6:54
but we'll pray for you. And I need it. Is that a conclusion, Representative Williams? Thank you. Anyone else on the committee before we open it up to public commentary?
Seeing none, we will move to the public commentary. It looks like we have for the bill, Nicholas Staley. If you'd go to the end of the table and
introduce yourself. Welcome to House Judiciary. Thank you very much.
Speaker 27
7:32
I appreciate the opportunity to come and speak.
You know, I don't know if anybody here actually heard this. I gave the same testimony or very close to it two years ago. But very little has changed since then. There's still been a whole lot of cases of violence in churches and robberies in churches. And actually, since then, we've had a lot of issues right here in Little Rock that we, frankly, didn't really have much before. But again, it's an honor to be here, and I appreciate your time. You know, this bill is quite simple. It does not require the posting of signs on ornate church doors.
It doesn't require any church to allow concealed carry. But it does return the rights of the church to exercise control over their own property. It returns the rights of individual houses of worship to determine whether carry will be allowed in those churches, synagogues, or mosques. And, you know, many who do not support the Second Amendment and don't support gun rights still say that the current law isn't constitutional because it singles out churches, while this decision remains in the hands of most other private property owners.
Now, I'm a concealed handgun instructor licensed by the Arkansas State Police, And almost every single one of my students asks me why they can't carry in a church. Many of them even say, my pastor told me to just go ahead and carry. But I think, as a Christian, I have the duty to obey civil authority. And I would say these are precisely the types of people that we want carrying in church if it's going to happen. The good people that I train know and understand the law, and they demonstrate proficiency and safety. They've gone through FBI background checks.
If their church wants to allow them to carry, I am personally comfortable being in the same church with them and having my family there. After all, I'm already in public places with them every single day, whether it be Walmart or the mall or restaurants, and I would probably say most of us in this room haven't been in a restaurant in a long time where there wasn't at least one or two concealed handgun license holders. In fact, there are now roughly 130,000 of them in Arkansas, and this doesn't account for the thousands who carry under the Arkansas Safe Journey Law.
Unfortunately, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 violent crimes committed on church properties each year. Quite a few of them occur right here in Arkansas, and I know at least two pastors who have had security situations right here in Little Rock over the last year. And I think here in a bit you may hear some testimony from someone who has. unfortunately you know that people there are some people who say well you know god protect you and that i should simply have more faith and i would say that you know my faith does rest and and knowing that god protects me but he also doesn't expect me to just lie there and i'm glad that
colorado resident gianna psalm was carrying in 2007 when matthew murray an anti-christian bigot came armed with smoke bombs and a thousand rounds of ammunition he opened fire in the building where services were being held, and he managed to kill three people, unfortunately, before Mrs. Som courageously put her firearm to use. Based on the amount of ammunition that that murderer was carrying, he likely could have killed as many as 100 people. In Arkansas, those 100 people would have remained defenseless unless the church had the money
to hire licensed security guards. And so I speak for myself and the Board of Directors of Arkansas Cary and hundreds of my students when I ask for a good vote today. And I just wanted to add one little thing that I hadn't ever actually noticed until very recently. The Arkansas Constitution, Article 2, Section 25, says protection of religion. Religion, morality, and knowledge being essential to good government, the General Assembly shall enact suitable laws to protect every religious denomination
in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship. So we have our own Constitution telling us that we need to be mindful that we need to protect our ability to worship. And I would just also add that we're on really shaky ground when we start setting a policy. You know, a lot of us in this room don't like the idea of guns in church. I wish we weren't to the point in a lot of churches where we had to think about that.
But it doesn't really matter how you feel about that because we don't need the state establishing the religion. We don't need the state establishing that this is the moral policy of every church in Arkansas. And that ought to be left up to the churches. This bill doesn't even, you know, say by default that it's legal. It just says by default it still remains illegal. and the church has to set their own policy. So I appreciate the opportunity to speak and just ask that you all will consider this and give it a good vote.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
12:31
Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Steele. Speaking against the bill, we have Mr. Gordon Garlington. Mr. Garlington. Good
David Murray
Unverified
12:52
morning, if you would introduce yourself, and you are recognized. Welcome to the House Judiciary. Good morning, and
Speaker 34
12:58
I appreciate your letting me come. I'm a country preacher.
For going on 41 years, I've been a pastor of local congregations in Virginia, Texas, and for 33 years here in Arkansas. I grew up in a farming and ranching community in New Mexico where just about every pickup you saw on the street had a rifle hanging in the back window. And guns and hunting were a part of life. But when folks went to church, they left their guns at the door.
And I guess I would just try to briefly share a couple of concerns from different angles. One, I am concerned that concealed carry in our churches in the event, the unfortunate event of some kind of violence erupting, could potentially result in not fewer but more people being hurt. Churches are not perfect organizations. Most of our churches don't have huge security details.
I would urge you to allow churches to continue to be a place like schools and hospitals and courthouses where the rule and the expectation of people entering those institutions would be that there would not be guns there. Certainly that the leaders, the governing bodies of those organizations could hire duly authorized, trained personnel, security personnel, but the rule and the expectation would be that
this would be a sanctuary, what we call our place of worship, a sanctuary where guns are not present. Part of my concern is theological. We are called as Christians to live in the world but not be of the world, to be pointing toward the new creation that God wants to bring on this earth. And I, for one, am willing to have the courage to do that, to let the sanctuary be a place without guns.
I am aware that powerful lobbying organizations are very much wanting you to push this bill forward. Last time this was up in the legislature, I was somewhat surprised to go on the website of one of those organizations and find there a running tally of the states in which they had been able to have this legislation or similar legislation adopted. And so I am aware that if you vote against moving this bill forward, it will be a black mark on your scorecard with those organizations.
I realize it will take political courage to oppose this bill, and I pray that you will have that courage. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 39
15:57
Next, we have for the bill, Mr. Nathan Petty. Thank you, Mr.
Nathan Petty
Unverified
16:12
Chairman and members of the committee. Mr.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
16:14
Petty, if you'll state your name for the committee and let us know who you are.
Nathan Petty
Unverified
16:20
Yes, sir. You are recognized. Thank you. My name is Nathan Petty. I'm a pastor of Beach Grove Baptist Church in Fort Ice, Arkansas. I'm also an Arkansas State Police Registered Concealed Handgun Carry Instructor, and I appreciate this opportunity to speak to you all today about an issue that's very real to me. I can tell you I've had my concealed handgun license since I turned 21, and I understand the importance of personal protection. I understand that in reality there is no one else in this world who has the job of protecting me
except for me. And courts have even ruled that the police, that local municipalities don't have a duty to protect individuals. It does come back to an individual responsibility. And I want to tell you that the issue before you today is one that affects me
Speaker 43
17:10
personally, and not only me, but also the people who I love and pastor. My secretary is a 75-year-old retired school principal. And on Monday of this week, four days ago, this issue became very real for
her as well. I was out of the office running errands. Our youth pastor was in class, and a man with whom we had made contact before came to our church offices wanting money. And when our secretary told him that we did not hand out cash indiscriminately, he became upset. He began to demand money. He began displaying some very threatening behaviors Thankfully, she remained calm, and she was able to place a discreet call to the police.
I returned soon after that call was placed, before the police arrived, and he was agitated. He was growing more so when an officer finally arrived and escorted him out, thankfully, without that escalating into a more serious incident. I can tell you that this situation is not uncommon. It's one that's fresh in my mind because it occurred this week. But it's very similar to many that I've faced in 15 years of full-time ministry. Most people think about church as being something that we do one hour on Sunday mornings,
but for many people, including staff, musicians, teachers, custodians, and many other people, a church is a workplace. A church building is a workplace. And our building is my place of worship five hours a week, but it's my place of work the rest of the week. and the current prohibition applies 24 hours a day 7 days a week by nature a church has to be somewhat vulnerable that is part of what we do we have to place ourselves out there
and we have to be willing to accept people from all different kinds of backgrounds we open our doors to people who are in need to people who have been cast out by their own families and to people who are often desperate for help and I'm going to tell you we are grateful for the opportunity to minister to the spiritual and physical needs of the people of our community. That is a calling that we take seriously and one that we don't want to forfeit for fear of our own personal safety. There have been a lot of suggestions that maybe we could hire armed guards
and maybe we could do things. And I tell you, I know there are congregations who are able to do that. We're not one of them. I can tell you that this week I received a call last night from one of our church members and he said, hey, I want to buy and install security cameras. Is that okay? You know, great. But as far as us just having the resources readily available to do things like that, that's an option that's not available to us. You need to know that within the criminal element, there are those who understand that a church is an easy target.
And I appreciate that we are protective of our sanctuaries, but you must understand that a sanctuary is only a sanctuary as long as it remains safe and protected. It's not a sanctuary because we put a sign out front. It's not a sanctuary because we make laws that only law-abiding people who are willing to obey. The people within that church building are mostly trusting and always vulnerable to a certain degree. And having the means to defend oneself helps offset the risk
that we have to take in the work of the ministry. I can tell you that my secretary would have been no match for that strong man who came to our offices Monday. She has a concealed handgun carry license, and I know that she is well-trained because I trained her. I put her through 20 hours of instruction from basic pistol instruction through the Arkansas State Police-approved concealed handgun carry license curriculum. If this encounter had gotten out of hand, and I truly thank God that it did not,
she would have been completely unable to defend herself because her gun was outside in her car because the law does not permit our church to authorize her to carry inside. When I returned and walked in on this situation, my gun was in my vehicle because the state law does not allow me the option of carrying it inside. And I'll tell you that I pray that I never need a gun to defend my life or the life of another person. And I can tell you this is not about keeping people from stealing offerings on Sunday morning This is not about keeping people from stealing sound equipment
because state law clearly defines when there is a justification for use of deadly force. Everyone who goes through concealed handgun training is aware of those qualifications. This is about protecting life. Now, I tell you, I hope I never have to do that. But if that day comes, I pray that I do not find myself disarmed and defenseless because of a state-mandated prohibition. Some say that it's not appropriate to have a gun inside a church. And I'll tell you, that's really not the issue here. What you have before you is a question of simply who gets to make that determination for each church.
The question is not, is it right or wrong? The question is, who has the right to make that decision? This just says that that church gets to make that decision. And I can tell you, I would be here today speaking in opposition to any bill that would require churches to allow concealed carry. But I'm speaking in support of this bill because it seeks to do the right thing. It seeks to let each church make a moral decision. If the decision to prohibit concealed carry in all churches is a religious decision,
it's not the place of the state to make that call. I can tell you, for me, this is a First Amendment issue. This is not a Second Amendment issue. The question before you is, who gets to make this decision? I can tell you that currently there are many places not prohibited, which are similar to churches in terms of public security concerns, which may be raised, daycares, nursing homes, malls, and contrary to what you've heard today, hospitals are not on the list of places where you cannot carry a concealed handgun.
Now, each of those entities has the ability to prohibit concealed carry, but they are not on this list of prohibited places. They each get to make that decision for themselves. And I'm here today simply asking for an end to this discrimination against religious institutions. I'm simply asking for fairness in the law. And let me close by saying that after our excitement on Monday, the police told us that the man who came by is a paranoid schizophrenic with violent tendencies.
And there sat my secretary in her office, alone with him, defenseless. In, I walked defenseless. and the police did show up. I'm thankful for them, but consider those in rural churches where the police station is not just a mile down the road. My first church was a rural church and I can tell you that it doesn't matter if the police are two minutes away or if they're 20 minutes away, one second of defenselessness is too many. I will walk into my church this afternoon
and again tomorrow and again on Sunday unarmed because the state says, I must. Violence happens in churches. And it's happened in churches in Arkansas. And we can pretend that we still live in a world where we don't have to lock the church doors. We can pretend we still live in a world where there's some type of respect, even among the criminal element,
for the sanctity of a church building. But reality tells us something very different. Violence happens. It's happened in churches in Arkansas. And for those reasons, I urge you to consider that it's time that we allow innocent people the ability to defend themselves, especially in a location which is private property. And so I urge your support of this bill. Thank you very much for your time. Thank
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
25:15
you, sir. moving down our list
we have speak against the bill David Morrell am I pronouncing that right Murray okay introduce yourself
David Murray
Unverified
25:26
sir you are recognized Mr. Chairman my name
Speaker 44
25:32
is David Murray I'm from Grant County I'm a gun owner I do not support this legislation at all for the simple fact partly what the pastor just told us. He had a threatening situation
that was handled nonviolently by trained personnel, by trained policemen. With all the guns in the world, in the cars, wherever people keep them, there's still trained people out there who are paid to respond to these situations. and that the state's responsibility is to keep us safe everywhere we are,
no matter who we're with, no matter we're worshiping or sinning. The state's responsibility is to keep us safe, and that's why they train state troopers and county deputies, city police officers. that's why that money is invested so that they can properly protect us wherever we are and if we are in a church that includes it as well just as the pastor said the other part of it is
Christ came to sanctify our temples and this law in my mind gives us the opportunity to desecrate it with more murder and I don't believe Christ came so that we would be justified in killing one another I would hope that this committee would not pass this legislation thank you
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
27:21
thank you sir don't see anybody
is there anyone else here to speak for this bill I have a couple more against I want to make sure there's not anyone else for the legislation Seeing none, we'll move to Mary Maynard O'Connell. Speak against
David Murray
Unverified
27:45
the bill. If you would take a seat, state your name,
Mary Maynard
Unverified
27:49
and you are recognized. Thank you. My name is Mary Maynard O'Connell, and I am the
Marie Maynard
Unverified
27:54
pastor at First Presbyterian Church here in Little Rock.
And if I'm going to give the who are you, I'm really new, actually. This is my first call. And being a downtown church that serves the homeless and the hungry on a daily basis, I am very, very much aware of the risk that I am sometimes in, not only being a young female, but also being in the location that I am. And so when I saw this bill, I was torn because on one hand I could see how it would be a real boon to churches to be able to choose whether or not concealed carry would work for them.
But then I started to think through some of the unintended consequences and ramifications of this bill as it is currently written, and I realized that I had some serious concerns. So one of the first things that I did was call my insurance agent. It's Church Mutual here in town, and I spoke with Linda, the underwriter for Arkansas, and she was already aware of the situation. And so she was able to put me on hold and then go ahead and call me back later after she spoke with the underwriters and legal, and it was a situation she was already informed of.
And this is what she told me. And she said, you're right in being concerned. The law as it is being proposed now, and I am asking for an amendment to it. The law that is being proposed now would create sanctuaries and church worship spaces to essentially be a gray area. The bill doesn't define it as such, but that's what it would be in reality to any parishioner coming to visit the church. They would not know whether your church's policy was to permit or not permit concealed handguns. And so Linda told me that my church insurance policy, Church Mutual,
would require our church to post what our policy was regardless of whether we permitted handguns. And she said that we would have to post on the church doors or on the exterior of the building. We would have to post in bulletins. And I would have to verbally announce it at the beginning of worship. I was pretty blown away by that idea, and I told her that I didn't think I could do that. And she said, well, if you wanted to be covered by your insurance policy, you would have to. And I said, would all churches have to? And she said, if they have good insurance, yes.
And I said, oh, that's difficult. Then I asked, well, what would happen if I discovered somebody was carrying a concealed weapon in our building, and our policy was not to have them there? She said, well, you could ask them to be removed, and if they chose not to leave, you would have to charge them with criminal trespass. I said, criminal trespass from a church? Okay. I then asked, well, if my church chose, if we decided we're a downtown church, that we did want to have a few of our session members do concealed carry,
I believe a few of them actually are permitted to do so, they've gone through the chaining. She said that Church Mutual would not encourage us to have any civilians or church members conceal carry. If we really felt that we needed to have serious security in our building, we needed to hire professionals. My insurance company now wouldn't want us
Mary Maynard
Unverified
31:00
to have concealed carry in the building. And then I said, well, what should I do then with this bill? What should I come to them to say? Because I can read the writing on the wall.
Marie Maynard
Unverified
31:13
I understand the way that Arkansas is happening right now. And I spoke with Senator King and also Representative Warwick Sabin. What should I do? And so I'm here to speak to the need of this bill to be amended. As it currently stands, it requires two things to my mind. One is that it doesn't clarify that there's not a need to post. It doesn't say anything about whether churches do or do not have to post what their policy would be regarding handguns.
But the problem would be, in creating this gray area, the need for the public to know what your church has decided, whether there is concealed carry present or not. And the bill, as it's currently written, doesn't address that. I also would like to request an amendment clarifying who has the responsibility to inform. Does the individual concealed carry person, the individual who has the handgun on their being, have the responsibility of checking with the church? or can they assume, or is it the other way around?
Does the church have the responsibility to inform who is carrying? Essentially, while I understand why we feel that we need the opportunity to choose, I know that my church considers this a very real and pressing issue. And beyond the fact that it's already been divisive, just the fact that it's here and I'm here discussing it has caused some strife. I know that it's not going to have any easy answers. But this bill, as it is currently being presented,
unintentionally creates serious consequences for churches in the reality of how this would play out. I understand what's meant to happen, but what I would see happen would be my church, especially since it's an emergency clause, it would go into effect immediately, have to deal with this issue before any other ministry issues about what we do with this bill. Do we post? Do we not post? What does our insurance say? Are we suddenly out of compliance? And so I am asking for you not to vote for this,
to send it back respectfully to Senator King for further consideration about how to make sure that the unintended consequences of this bill do not harm churches that are perfectly happy under the current handgun ban. I
Mary Maynard
Unverified
33:34
guess that's all I really have to say. I've spoken. I do have, since I've not really done this before, a
Marie Maynard
Unverified
33:41
suggestion for an amendment. I'll just pass that around like a handout.
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
33:46
Hold on. Just a minute, Ms. O'Connor.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
33:50
We don't, pardon us, but we don't take suggestions too often. We have some folks who have questions. Will you be willing to answer some questions? If I can, yes, definitely. Representative Steele.
Representative Nate Steel
Unverified
34:05
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your testimony. I appreciate your concern about signs, and that's something that I've been very concerned about as well. I've talked to Senator King about this at length. As far as insurance requiring signs, Representative Shepard and I were just discussing this.
It seems that churches should have charitable immunity anyway from any tort loss. So I can't imagine why an insurance company would have any interest in insuring for firearms or anything like that. Of course, they insure you for fire damage and things like that. But my understanding is that an insurance policy for a church would not cover any kind of tort liability anyway because they should have charitable immunity. So have you discussed that with the insurance company by any chance? What I did discuss
Mary Maynard
Unverified
34:49
with my insurance company was what would this look like for my congregation?
Marie Maynard
Unverified
34:55
I'm working under the assumption that my congregation would elect not to have handguns in our worship. I don't know that's a fact, though, so I'm just working under that assumption. And my insurance said that they would require us to post because the public would not know that we do not permit handguns. And those members of the public that do have concealed carry would not know that they are not welcome in the church building and that they would need to leave those. So we would have to make that policy known to the members of the public that are already concealed carry persons.
And that's part of what I'm concerned about in this bill, is that it doesn't put the onus of responsibility for following the law on the concealed
Representative Nate Steel
Unverified
35:38
carry person. I appreciate that. I guess my question is, and I didn't phrase it very well, my question is do you know whether your insurance policy
Marie Maynard
Unverified
35:46
covers any kind of tort suit or anything like that? Tort suits, no. What I did ask, though, is would this raise our insurance premiums? And what was explained to me is that churches, especially under policies like Church Mutual, are in a pooled risk liability category.
And the best example of this is there was a church somewhere in southern Arkansas that had a very serious sexual harassment claim filed against them that was awarded. And it raised everyone in the pool's insurance premiums pretty significantly. And so in this, if I understood correctly, and I asked this twice, if there was a church in my insurance pool that elected to have concealed carry, and they had to get liability in case of an accident, and that goes into accident coverage, and they had a significant claim against them, it would raise the rates for everyone in that liability risk pool.
And generally, my concern with the bill as it is written now is that it would represent in reality for how this would actually come into effect a pretty decent burden on the churches to decide and immediately as an emergency clause how they would react to this state law. It might even be a breach of the separation of church and state. I guess there are some churches that
Representative Nate Steel
Unverified
36:58
are organized as a business, but it seems like sexual harassment or any other kind of charge, any other kind of suit.
would be difficult to get around charitable immunity.
Speaker 61
37:08
Oh, no, I promise you it is not. It is very easy to sue your
Speaker 55
37:12
church. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative Steele. Next,
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
37:18
I have Representative Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Steele, can I ask part of my question? I
guess I won't go to charitable immunity, but I would assume if you know, if you talk to your insurance carrier, in the case of an accidental shooting, not a tort, but an accidental shooting, I would assume your church could be liable in that kind of instance.
I would assume. Would you agree? I would agree, yes. And tell me again about the premiums. That's a question I asked earlier. So just
so I heard you correctly, did you say your premiums
Mary Maynard
Unverified
37:50
would or would not? The exact question of whether premiums would rise was still being debated. She said that if you chose
Marie Maynard
Unverified
37:55
to have concealed carry in your church, you could pretty much guarantee that you would see a rise in your insurance rate. The rest of you that chose not to have concealed carry would not until there was a claim filed and accepted,
and that's when you would see a significant rise that went across the
Speaker 66
38:15
entire liability pool. Thank you, Representative Williams. Next, I have Representative
Representative Matthew J. Shepherd
Unverified
38:22
Shepard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Going back to your testimony regarding your conversation with your insurance, What specifically, what were you asking your agent or your carrier in regard to insurance? Were you asking what would happen if you allowed firearms or what would happen if firearms were not allowed?
Mary Maynard
Unverified
38:41
I asked both, but I focused on what would
Marie Maynard
Unverified
38:43
happen if we did not allow firearms. And she said that, yes, you would, in fact, need to publicly post. And so that's the angle that I came off of, assuming, because I think that's how my church
Representative Matthew J. Shepherd
Unverified
38:56
would vote, would be to not allow firearms. And irrespective of the fact that we are essentially, if this passed, the law is still, the default position is, it is prohibited in any church or other place of worship. Correct. And I guess the question to follow up on Representative Steele, while churches have immunity, I understand that to the extent churches have insurance, that that immunity may be waived as to the policy.
Speaker 73
39:22
But if there's no coverage there, it may be a moot
Mary Maynard
Unverified
39:27
point anyway. I have to promise you that the church that has no liability coverage is one lawsuit away from closing. Almost every church I know of has liability coverage in order to cover incidents like this. No. Representative Gill.
Representative Jeremy Gillam
Unverified
39:47
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just one quick question. And did you by chance talk to any other insurance companies to see if this was like all church insurance companies or was this just the carrier that you use?
Marie Maynard
Unverified
39:57
I just spoke with my carrier, Church Mutual.
Speaker 78
40:04
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Representative Say. Pastor, thank you for being here today. Pardon my voice. By training, you completed a theological seminary. I did. And you serve in the Presbyterian Church, is that right? That's right. And your form of church governance is through the session, is that right? That's correct. So could you explain what the session does for those of us who may not be familiar with Presbyterian Church?
Sure. And would they be the group that would make
Marie Maynard
Unverified
40:40
whole? Yes, they would. The session is a body in our church. It's 15. It's three classes of five people that are elected from within the congregation to be ordained as elders in the church and to serve on the session, which is essentially the legislative body of our congregation. They're called ruling elders. I'm a teaching elder. My position is to teach, preach, serve the sacraments, and I also moderate the session.
And the session is the one that, through committees, makes the decisions for the body of the church concerning policies, the budget, and just kind of general functioning of the church. I have a role on it, but I am by no means the only person who
Speaker 78
41:24
gets to make decisions. Thank you, Pastor. Now, in the course of your training, did you become aware of the governance systems of other denominations or groups? are you familiar with Roman Catholic governance
a little bit yes they don't use a session do
Marie Maynard
Unverified
41:43
they no they use a more hierarchical form of government in which it goes from I believe priest up to bishop all the way on up to
Speaker 78
41:51
the pope would it be possible then that the bishop would be making these determinations for all Catholic churches in Arkansas it's
Marie Maynard
Unverified
41:57
possible but you would need to ask a
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
42:01
Catholic thank you Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Any other questions from the committee for this witness? Thank you.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
42:08
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate the opportunity. Looks like we have one final member of the public, and then we'll
David Murray
Unverified
42:20
move the order of business. But it looks like Debbie Carl Freeman to speak against. Thank you for everything you
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
42:27
need to hear. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other questions from the committee? If not, we will allow Mr. Oh, I'm sorry. Representative McElroy. I
Representative Mark D. McElroy
Unverified
42:38
just want to ask a question to the senator.
I'm one of the few on here that are not attorneys, which is a good thing, I think. It depends on who you asked. But, you know, my take on this is not about the guns
today. We're separated. Just a while ago, we were asking about, we've got Baptists, we've got Methodists, we've got Catholics, we've got Presbyterians. So we can't even agree, you know, we can't all worship together, and that's all right. But I think my concern is the Constitution separates church and state for a reason.
And I trust you guys, but I don't want you making a decision for me where I go to church or if I can carry a gun to church or if I can't. And I think that's where we're going down a slippery slope. Would you agree that we actually, in that last bill, we took over their decision to decide if they wanted to carry that gun to church? And I think that to me, not just the legal issues, but the constitutional issues that, you know, I'm not that smart, but I know this.
We don't need to be dabbling in God's business. And I think we just, and am I missing this? Or, you know, and I heard from some of these out here that they don't even agree in their church. And I know in my church, I question it, and my preacher goes over every once in a while, and I might have used a pistol at an occasion or two. But they can't even, you know, if I question my congregation, you're going to get a different vote after every one. but I'm still saying it's the Constitution's right to stay out of the church's business.
And would you agree with that, Senator? You forgot the question. You tell I'm not a
Speaker 9
44:33
lawyer. I mean, I think I agree with you about the separation of church and state. But, you know, as we've seen with other states, they forced the decision on them to not allow Kerry. This is just the opposite where it gives them the choice. I mean,
Representative Mark D. McElroy
Unverified
44:49
I'm trying to follow. I think what you're saying is. That's exactly what I was saying. Maybe you misunderstood me. That's where we're just giving them the decision, and we're getting out of the church's business.
And I think we've got bigger fish to fry down here than to be dabbling in the church's business is what my question I get. Do you agree with that? I think
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
45:12
I would agree with it. Sure. No other questions. Senator King, will you take
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
45:18
a few more questions, and then we'll let you close for you, Bill? I would. Representative Williams. Senator King, I think that Pastor O'Connell made some points I'd like for you to respond to if you don't mind. But in addition to the one she asked about who has the ability to notify or who must notify and about posting the sign, could you tell me some churches, for example, I'm a
preacher's kid. My church, my dad preached it for a number of years, actually began on 9th and Chester above a pool hall, to be quite honest. There's a pool hall by night, and there's a church by day. So I guess there could be a bar or a restaurant. So I'm not sure what would apply because you couldn't bring it there. But also my church now is often a polling place. So what happens when it's a polling place is when we're in election time and there's a polling place, does that mean that church couldn't carry it in that time? Or have you thought about those issues where a church may be more than just a church building?
It may be a polling place as well. Or like when my dad first started off many, many, many years ago, he's deceased now, Here he met above a pool hall on 9th and Chester, and that place is exempt from a place that you can carry. So
have you thought about a location that may have dual purposes, and how is that addressed in your bill?
Speaker 9
46:27
Well, I think the law is clear that you cannot, in a polling site, you cannot carry a weapon. So I think once it's
Speaker 20
46:33
a polling site, I mean, I think that would be pretty common sense that you're not allowed to carry in
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
46:38
a... I guess, when is it a polling place?
Does that mean, since my church is designated a polling place always,
my church couldn't make the decision to carry or not carry? Or is it just when an election is going on and who makes that determination? Just so if my church wanted to, they'd know what to do. How would that
Speaker 20
46:55
be addressed in your bill? So you're saying while your church is a polling
Speaker 9
47:00
site, if a church allowed somebody to conceal carry, could they intermingle in the polling site? I think that's pretty clear
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
47:06
that they couldn't. No, the church's vestibule is a polling site. That's where people come and vote. or the church's gymnasium sometimes is a polling place.
That's still our church. Can a church member who's authorized by that church to carry, can that church member carry on that church premises since it's also a polling site under your bill? No. No? No. I mean, once it's a
Speaker 93
47:26
polling site, I mean, I think that the church grounds becomes a polling site. But, I
Speaker 9
47:31
mean, I think if you look at a community building, when it's a community building, it's still a church. I mean, I think it's kind of getting off on...
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
47:40
Well, it seems to be some conflict because the statute clearly says that you can't care in a polling place.
Speaker 9
47:46
And somebody brought up earlier, what if you had the chapel inside the prison? Is that considered where they can do it? I mean, I think we're getting off into
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
47:55
questions that's outside the... Well, I think it raises just the actual confusion of the bill. And I
guess in closing, I'd ask if you wouldn't mind responding to Pastor O'Connell's question regarding... I did. I would like to address that. I mean, I
Speaker 93
48:08
take your question seriously, but – and I talked to her before this, and I'm going
Speaker 9
48:13
to give her my e-mail address and try and work – if this bill is fortunate enough to pass,
before it gets to the floor, we're going to try and address her insurance company's concerns. But I think that other states have similar provisions to what we're doing, and we're not seeing that. If there has to be an adjustment made, maybe we have to file a bill to tell the insurance company that this doesn't apply or address that. That could be possible later on. As long as the session is going on and you've got the votes, you can do just about anything down here. So I'm insensitive to her question in trying to find some answers and maybe get her insurance person with the staff to answer.
I think maybe the insurance person is maybe just needs to be cleared up. So are you asking us to pass this and you'll take care of it later, or are
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
49:01
you saying you're going to fix it and bring it back to us? I'm saying I'm going to ask this committee to pass this
Speaker 9
49:07
bill because I believe, as I said, it's not a perfect bill and there may be things two years from now we may have to address. But as far as her concern, I'm going to try to address her concern. I'm not going to say right now where I'm at on it. I'm just going to say I'm going to try to address her concern
as we have the rest of the session. If there's some validity to it, then maybe we have to address it in another way. I'm going to work with her and try and find an answer
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
49:33
to her question to clear this up. I appreciate that, Senator King. I guess I just would say that I should feel more comfortable
having the answer before I voted on the bill. But I appreciate you agreeing to
Representative Bob Ballinger
Unverified
49:47
try to work on that. Representative Ballinger. Thank you, Chairman. My question is, I mean, I looked at the bill. It actually seemed relatively simple.
It just basically says that if, and you correct me because you're the author of the bill, It basically says that if you're a place of worship, that you have the ability to opt out of the concealed carry restrictions by having a policy in place allowing that. So really all we're doing is saying if you want to, church, you can do this. There may be other complications and issues like Representative Williams was talking about that have to be taken care of. That's up to you, church. If you want to do it, you can take care of the problems with your insurance.
But from a perspective that I look here, it's basically saying, church, if you want to deal with it, it's your baby. Is that basically what you'd say? Pretty much. If there are no
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
50:41
other questions from committee, we'll let Senator King close for his bill, and then we'll recognize Representative Gillum. I
Speaker 9
50:49
just want to close by, you know, the testimony of the people for it and the people against it is, you know, I'm sensitive to all that
and I understand that and that's why this bill gets down to the freedom. Are there some things out here that need to be addressed? You know, sure. And we'll try and find out the answers to take care of that. But in churches, and even in my church, we have retired active duty military people. When it comes to people qualified, as the gentleman said, you know, a lot of churches have those people. They may even have a retired law enforcement. I mean, it gives them the freedom. And it also gives the individual, as the pastor said, the freedom for him to decide how to protect
himself. And I think that's a fundamental right that we should have. I mean, I think we should look at more citizen protection measures like this. So I would just
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
51:40
appreciate a good vote. Thank you, Senator King. Representative Gillen? Thank
Representative Jeremy Gillam
Unverified
51:44
you, Mr. Chair. I'd like this time to move due pass.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
51:47
All right. Due pass as amended. Yes, thank you for the clarification. It always does. Due pass as
amended. Is there any discussion in the motion? Hearing none, the motion before the committee is do pass as amended.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Speaker 39
52:05
Aye. Any opposed? No. The bill passes. Congratulations, Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
52:21
All right. Next item. Representative Bell, do you want to take care of an item, I believe, on the agenda? Yes,
thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to ask that HB 1042 be moved to the deferred list.
We're working on some amendments with some parties to have some concerns, and we'll be back in touch with the committee to bring that back at a future
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
52:43
date. Do we need a vote on that? I think we do. All right. Hearing no objection, House Bill 1042 will be moved to our deferred list. next item on the agenda is Representative Catlett are you prepared to present your bill please move then
Speaker 39
52:58
to the table and introduce your bill oh I skipped
Speaker 115
53:12
I thought so 1138 he's not running hey you just want to pass
Speaker 118
53:22
over Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to the House Judiciary. You're
Representative John Catlett
Unverified
53:27
welcome. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John Catlett, Representative, and some of my witnesses here.
Speaker 120
53:33
I'm Kay Terry from DFA's Office of Personnel Management. Paul
Speaker 122
53:36
Lothian, Administrator, Office of the County DFA.
Representative John Catlett
Unverified
53:42
Thank you, members. What I'm here for, this bill, is to allow police officers to drive outside the state to attend funerals, victims of a crime, or witnesses to a crime. In the past, in past years, of course, if you all, let me back up, if you all don't know it, I have a long history in law enforcement, spent my entire adult life in law enforcement, retired state trooper in 2010. In past years, members, police officers have been allowed, and still are in some cases,
to drive outside the state to attend funerals. And this is a camaraderie, brotherhood-type deal. We reciprocate by doing that, especially if an officer is killed in the line of duty. And in doing so, we usually take our units, our patrol cars. And in recent agency policy decisions, they have disallowed, prohibited this practice.
And the reason why is some agencies feel like because the practice of driving the police car is not particularly a benefit to the state, they feel it's a liability to the state to allow this practice. Well, I just felt that was not the case because, like I said, we work, reciprocate, especially in the bordering cities like Texarkana, Fort Smith.
We actually worked close, in hand, with police officers and troopers from Sebastian County over into, I think it's LeFleur County. I don't remember what the county of Fort Smith was. And this practice is common. So if one of our brothers happens to be killed in the line of duty, It's sad that we can't take our patrol cars right across the state lines to go to the funeral.
And, too, I may want to add that, especially a state trooper, retired state trooper, our unit is a part of us. That's our office. That's where we work. And simply to get in an airplane or take our personal car to the funeral, it's just not all of who we are. And I'm asking you, committee, to consider this bill to allow us to drive our units.
And this is not something that we're putting on agencies as a burden. This is something that we're asking the authority to do if they may choose to do it. So it's not like we're allowing our police officers and troopers to take it on a family vacation to Florida. But anyway, I brought these people here to maybe give a background of the law and the policy changes is what we led up to this.
Speaker 121
57:11
Good morning. This came about, I guess, probably two, two and a half years ago. I was asked by the
Speaker 39
57:20
director. If you could, give your name one
Speaker 121
57:22
more time for the committee. I'm Paul Lothian. I'm the administrator of the Office of Accounting. It's also my duty to publish the financial management guide for the state of Arkansas. Two, two and a half years ago, I was asked by the director of the state police my opinion of them taking a patrol car out of state to a funeral.
And my comment back to the director at that time was this. There's no direct benefit to the state of Arkansas for this to occur. I understand why you want to do that. I understand the respect. But the law is not permissive of that. And for what I've seen through the audit findings of the state and comments that have occurred over the last five or six years for expenditures, I would question whether you would be supported in that decision if you chose to do that.
I'm not telling you that you can't. I'm not telling you that it's against state law. I'm telling you that it's not permissive in state law to do that, and I would caution you to think through that decision. At that time, they chose not to, and I believe that's been their choice in the matter since that point in time. This bill would make it permissive. for the state, for law enforcement to use their vehicles to do that and correct that problem. I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
58:46
Representative Catlett, do you have anyone else wishing to speak on this? Then you will take questions, and your witnesses also, if they could stay put. I think there may be
Speaker 120
59:02
some questions for them also. Kay Terry, State Office of Personnel Management. Basically, Paul summarized the situation as it is. The only thing I would add is that within state police, they consider their uniform, they are compensated for their uniforms and other things.
And it is my understanding from Representative Catlett that the car is like part of their uniform
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
59:26
when they are going to a formal
Representative Mary L. Slinkard
Unverified
59:31
service. I believe we have Representative Slinkert has a question. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Catlett, I know this bill doesn't address this, but would the units used by law enforcement agencies as they travel out of state, would they use any kind of significant sign as a black ribbon or anything to indicate to the public
that they are on their way to a funeral? No, ma'am, it doesn't.
Agenda
SB56
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Nate Bell Chair
Unverified
Representative John T. Vines
Unverified
Senator Bryan King
Unverified
Speaker 8
Speaker 9
Speaker 10
David Murray
Unverified
Representative Darrin Williams
Unverified
Speaker 20
Speaker 21
Speaker 27
Speaker 34
Speaker 39
Nathan Petty
Unverified
Speaker 43
Speaker 44
Mary Maynard
Unverified
Marie Maynard
Unverified
Representative Nate Steel
Unverified
Speaker 61
Speaker 55
Speaker 66
Representative Matthew J. Shepherd
Unverified
Speaker 73
Representative Jeremy Gillam
Unverified
Speaker 78
Speaker 82
Representative Mark D. McElroy
Unverified
Speaker 93
Representative Bob Ballinger
Unverified
Speaker 112
Speaker 115
Speaker 118
Representative John Catlett
Unverified
Speaker 120
Speaker 122
Speaker 121
Representative Mary L. Slinkard
Unverified