House State Agencies & Govt'l Affairs Committee
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SB2
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Speaker 1
0:00
Members and guests, just a reminder, we're going to probably start the end of next week hearing constitutional amendments. So those that have shell bills, it's time to fill those in and get ready. All right, this morning
we're going to start out with a presentation from Accelerate Arkansas. saw thank you for being here and I'm trying to find you in the room there you
are thank you for standing up if you'd come to the end of the table and I whoops excuse me thank you very much step to the end of the table and identify yourselves please thank you Charisse Childers with
Speaker 7
0:59
Accelerate Arkansas Mitch Horowitz from Battelle you're gonna have to lean
Speaker 1
1:07
in a little more into your mic maybe we can get you some more volume members you have the executive summary and I think you also have a
Speaker 12
1:19
copy of the PowerPoint as well all right if you
Speaker 7
1:25
guys would Go ahead with your presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you,
Speaker 14
1:30
Mr. Vice Chair, for giving Accelerate Arkansas the opportunity to present to you the recent Battelle study entitled, Arkansas's Knowledge Economy Initiatives, Analysis of Progress and Recommendations for the Future.
This study demonstrates that Arkansas has enjoyed clear economic benefits from activities to create a knowledge-based economy and is now poised to take critical next steps to maintain momentum in this area. Accelerate Arkansas was organized in 2003 and is a unique private sector-led organization whose statewide membership is comprised of leaders volunteering their time and resources to focus on how to move Arkansas forward in the 21st century economy.
Accelerate Arkansas is not a government agency, but is an advocacy group for knowledge-based economic development. State Arkansas, AEDC, ASTA, ADFA, and the General Assembly have worked together to promote the creation of high-paying jobs and the formation of new companies as part of a knowledge-based economy and to further the state's business and technological competitiveness. This work created the initiatives Innovate Arkansas, the Arkansas Research Alliance,
the Arkansas Risk Capital Matching Fund, along with numerous other economic development initiatives. The state agencies of AEDC, ASTA, and ADFA are doing a tremendous job with minimal funding. They have been very inventive. These initiatives are based on private sector principles with private sector dominated boards. To date, the programs have received that funding from the Governor's General Improvement Funds.
Recognizing the importance of an independent review, a partnership of state agencies and nonprofit organizations invited the Battelle Technology Partnership Practice to assess the performance and ongoing knowledge-based initiatives in Arkansas. Battelle Technology Partnership Practice is one of the nation's leading knowledge-based economic development groups with significant expertise and experience in developing, designing,
and assessing economic development initiatives across the nation. I'm pleased to have Mitch Horowitz, the Vice President and Managing Director of Battelle Technology Partnership Practice with us today. Mitch brings over 20 years of experience in state and local economic development, both as a consultant and as a government official. He served as a technology advisor to the Maryland Secretary of Economic and Employment Development, and has also served as the chief operating officer for a venture financing company and
executive vice president for a health informatics company. Mitch, thank you for being here. Thank you. Madam Chairman, Mr. Vice Chair, members of the committee,
Speaker 18
4:30
it's a great privilege and honor to be here today. I'm not sure how we're going to advance the slides. You're going to need to come up here. Ah. That
Speaker 19
4:43
will – I was wondering why you were down there, but I didn't want to interrupt, so you'll need to operate it from up here.
Speaker 18
4:59
Now this makes more sense. Thank you. Great to be here today. What we're going to be talking about today and what Accelerate Arkansas is so focused on and what you and the legislature have helped put in place is really about jobs and public-private partnerships. And so what you're going to see here is that Arkansas is recognizing the challenges in front of of us. 15 years ago, if we had a discussion about international competition, we'd be talking
about all your low-cost, commodity-based, low-skilled jobs going overseas. Today, what we're talking about is a set of competitors that are meeting the challenge or meeting the innovation capabilities of the U.S. Just last year, in our global R&D forecast we do with R&D Magazine. The U.S. grew by 2.4 percent in R&D. China grew 24 percent. India 17 percent. Brazil over 10 percent. If those numbers continue, they're going to catch up. And that's the
issue that we're focused on. But we know we can compete, and we know that the terms of that competition are changing. And in this new world that we're facing, industry requires working with universities and emerging technology companies to get the innovations and ability to move forward on new processes and bring new kinds of products to market. And so we need to have an ecosystem, which is what that diagram shows, that can allow for connections
with universities, with emerging technology companies, and then ultimately generating jobs. Back in 2004, the Milken Institute came to Arkansas. They're a national kind of benchmarking organization that does a set of indicators to look at how states are doing. And they reported to Accelerate Arkansas that Arkansas was on the periphery of the knowledge economy. I'm really pleased to tell you, looking at what has been accomplished with the governor's
economic development program, with statewide volunteer organizations like Accelerate Arkansas through your state agencies, that today, Arkansas is on the map. Arkansas has put in place a set of focused programs that now address that interconnection to move forward on the knowledge economy, and it's demonstrating tangible results. We took a hard look at these programs, both
from what they're accomplishing as a public-private partnership, what are they generating in terms of the private sector stepping up alongside the public sector, and we also looked at what their jobs are creating here. So there's two key areas of focus. One is, you've been investing in the R&D base of your universities. They, in response, have actually been able to garner three times the amount of funding you've put in they've gotten from federal sources.
So they bring new wealth to Arkansas, and that by itself is generating jobs. And so a total economic impact of 335 million, nearly 3,000 jobs over the three, four year period that we looked at. But even more importantly, you are now putting in place the seed corn for a future job growth. You have 135 companies that are now going through this pipeline of assistance. And we know it's working because these companies are utilizing all of your
programs in sequence to make sure that they can move forward. And so with about $30 million of state investments across tax credits and state programs over these years that we looked at from 2008 to 2011, the private sector has put up $80 million. And more than that, they've created nearly 1,300 jobs, which are double the average salary of the private sector in Arkansas. So these are good quality jobs. And what's so important here is that all the great efforts this state has been making in STEM education and really ensuring that the
children of Arkansas are globally competitive, we have to have the demand side. We need the jobs in which those children can work productively here in Arkansas. And there's other good news for Arkansas in terms of rising per capita income. So today you have broken the 80 percent level compared to the country, where before you were mired more in the 60s and 70%. You have growing industries that are high wage industries now that employ about 150,000 Arkansasans and that now have grown by 4% while they decline
through the recession and the economic recovery while they decline by 4% nationally. So these are competitive industries that you've created. And your universities are stepping up. That investment is not only bringing in new federal awards, but your industries, your universities are actually licensing and creating startups at a higher level than the country. And it's starting to translate in the workforce because your STEM occupations are growing faster than the country, but they need to continue to rise going forward.
And so when we took a hard look at what you have, the way I kind of put it, we're not a football season, but I like the football analogy because you've taken the opening kickoff where in 2004 you were on the periphery, you weren't in the game. Now you're in the game in 2013. You've taken that opening kickoff and you've gotten great field position. The question is, what do you do with it from here? And this is, again, about jobs, high-quality jobs, and public-private partnerships. So when we looked at what's happening here, unfortunately,
a lot of these programs were piloted they are they do not have stable state funding so when you think about it as a businessman and you need to know that there's some seed investment there's some R&D incentives there's there's additional resources so that when you have a good idea you can get technical assistance there's ways in which you can work with the universities and consortiums that's not happening in terms of predictability Charisse mentioned that I worked in Maryland. I actually put in place their biotech strategies
and audited their fundamental technology efforts back in the early 1990s. Those programs I put in place are still there today. They've been in place for the last 23, 24 years. So businesses know they can rely upon these programs. And again, it's not the size of the program. These are not major, large funded programs. It's the predictability of them. But when we took a harder look, we also saw some real challenges in continuing to move down the field and really step up in terms of being a top tier state in the knowledge economy.
One is we still have the challenge of raising productivity of industry here. So those industries I told you about that are high wage industries already in Arkansas that are growing are still below the national average of productivity. And what that translates to over time is that you're not creating as much wealth as those industries are in other states. The only way you can raise that productivity is by bringing in innovation. And the innovation for the future comes from emerging companies working with large companies and from universities
bringing their talent up to these companies and also ensuring that these companies have the best minds working on problems that they have. We also saw that we have 135 companies coming through this pipeline and they're getting through the startup and the emerging stages, but the expansion stage where all the big job numbers come from. Instead of 1,300 jobs, we're talking about 10,000 jobs, 20,000 jobs requires the right kinds of capital. Right
now Arkansas doesn't have that right kind of capital. It's because you do not have the lead venture capital investors at this expansion stage. And then ultimately it's about growing the pipeline. So this chart here on kind of what's working well and where the gaps are is an assessment for 2013 to give you a sense that, yes, some things are working, but there's still an agenda. There's still a need in terms of focusing on jobs and where jobs can come from in Arkansas that are going to be high-quality jobs that can connect back to all the great
efforts you've been making in STEM education and what your universities are doing and ensure that the future of Arkansas continues to be a
Speaker 26
14:03
great and bright one with that any questions I'll go back
Representative John K. Hutchison
Unverified
14:13
either place is fine representative Hutchison thank you madam chair 135 farms yes can you a couple of ten or five of them or so it
Speaker 18
14:26
includes things like acumen holdings I
don't know if you know about them they're they're they're marketing they're one of the leading e-commerce companies emerging out of the base of new innovations around Northwest Arkansas there's Arkansas power electronics which is focused around new energy developments. There's a company called Nanomech, which is bringing new kinds of nanotechnologies out forward. There's a company called First Orion,
which I believe Jerry Adams was telling me that Conway has been identified as one of the leading technology hubs, and they're a company that comes out there. They do computer security. So you can see it's a broad range of companies and activities that are involved in these things. There's blue and green. In fact, last week I was out. One of your great private sector partners in this initiative is a company called the Virtual Incubation Company, which was announcing a new set of seed investments that they've been bringing
from the private sector that matches up with these programs. And they have created 12 companies over the last decade, many of them very recently and that have been utilizing these programs. Those are the kinds of companies we're talking about coming through. Innovate Arkansas sees I don't know, roughly about 80 to 100 companies a year who are coming to them, entrepreneurs who need assistance, really need to be able to understand the market capabilities. There's a vast array of emerging companies. What we want to see is the axioms of the future.
we want to see is the next set of companies that are going to really lead and grow here in Arkansas to take
Representative John K. Hutchison
Unverified
16:23
root the wind stars and so forth understand that I'm all about I'm all about all this you know I'm from Northeast Arkansas and you talking about a boost we can use a boost up that way do you think that these companies should maybe invest back into the development of some of this, you know,
like with the local universities, you know, these universities are getting this money and everything, we definitely, they definitely need to work with each other, I would think, and, you know, pre-economic
Speaker 18
17:02
development. Right. So that's what I was saying about this public-private partnership. And, you know, I've been working recent years in Nebraska with Governor Hyman, working right now in Louisiana with Governor Jindal. These states across the country, Governor Kasich in Ohio, they recognize that the dynamic is government's role is to facilitate and stimulate, be a catalyst.
But ultimately, the private sector has to carry the load. They're going to be creating the jobs, but what we're seeing already in Arkansas, they're also making the investments. So for every $1 you're putting into that early stage activity, industry is putting in nearly $3, $2.66, and that's only after three to four years. We're expecting a lot more private sector investment that's going to come from this. In terms of specifically about how to work with universities, one of the best programs that is out there is actually something that's been put in place now in Maryland for many, many years.
And while the private sector ultimately puts in more of the resources, universities have, you know, are primarily focused around their education and their research mission. When you add economic development, you need to at least be able to stimulate engagements. And that's what we're talking about here. Not taking the lion's share of the funding, but stimulating and then engaging and allowing for industry to see the value of what the universities have to offer. But over time, I would imagine, and I believe that a number
of the companies here in Arkansas already do give back. If I'm not mistaken, I'm going to put Jerry on the spot again, but I believe Axiom has put in and has chairs at different universities and others. And what Jerry's organization is doing, which is an industry-led organization called the Arkansas Research Alliance, they now have the leading companies in Arkansas at the table talking about these exact issues, and that's the way you get them rooted and connected, and they're doing it in participation with the university presidents.
So that kind of conversation can lead to some of the things that I
Representative John K. Hutchison
Unverified
19:06
think you would like to see. Thank you very much. I'm for all sectors of Arkansas, but we've got plenty room back in northeast Arkansas for them to come talk. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Madam Chair. Representative Walker. Thank you, Chairman. Is it Mr. Patel? No, no. It's Mr. Horowitz.
Speaker 41
19:32
Mr. Horowitz. Dr. Horowitz? Not even a doctor. I'm just a master's. I see. What
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
19:39
is it you're asking this committee to do?
Speaker 18
19:43
Great. It's to give consideration, and I may turn it over to Cherise a little bit more, but I But I think our study began to show that you put in place programs that are largely funded through discretionary funding. And so there's no ability to have real planning around and sustaining these programs in terms
of doing economic development. So I think at this point it was very prudent to do it through discretionary funding, but But now it's at a point where they really need sustained funding so that business knows they're there. And I think that's the real emphasis. And there's a few gaps to take, again, modest steps to address in terms of some of the venture capital issues, some of the broader industry-university partnerships and making them even more focused around industry market needs, and ultimately about connecting the talent to the jobs here in Arkansas. And
And those are some of the initiatives that are called for. But again, with very modest additions to
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
20:49
the funding. But I'll turn over to Sharice. Well, before you do, I'd like to follow
up on, with your permission, Madam Chair, upon Representative Hutchinson's question. He asked you to identify a list of the companies that had made some positive contribution to the development of opportunity in Arkansas.
He ambitiously started off with maybe 20 and said 10 and then wound up with 5 or 6. One of those that you mentioned, I found none that were south of Interstate 30 and south of Interstate 40, beginning in Little Rock. Can you tell me some that are south
of those areas, please? I'll turn it over
Speaker 54
21:36
here because Theresa knows more where they're located. I just
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
21:40
know them generally. I'll get to her in a minute. But I understand that right now the nation is facing a great challenge this weekend because
two and a half percent of the economy is going to be adversely affected if there is not some agreement reached on the national level with respect to sequestration. Two point five percent can wreak havoc in the national economy. I'm concerned because although Mr. Hutchinson may not be as sensitive to it as I am, he and I have some of the same characteristics. We come from deprived areas which are underachieving and underdeveloped.
And the population of which I am a member is 15 percent of this state, and the population of which he is a member is at least 50% of this state. So if you combine the lower income white persons and the black persons in this state, you have 65% of this economy being inaccessible to the opportunity you're talking about. Why is it that your program that you have presented here makes no indication of race
and its impact upon the evolution of industry and poverty uh... his area is just important not just as poor white people are a little bit but white people a little bit
less poor than black would be but by and large they all poor whatever the standard to use so i'm concerned that we
don't continue to have a state where those doing well continue to do well and do better right now that's all right for them to do that but i think that a state has to be committed to doing for the least of its people, and in that way, all of us as a state
will grow. And that section, one half of the state, beginning in Memphis and coming down the freeway and going to Texacana, going all the way to
Speaker 18
23:45
the Mississippi River, can prosper. Absolutely. So just so you know how connected I am to what you're saying, I spent part of my career working for the Corporation for Enterprise Development, whose whole mission is around bringing entrepreneurship to different communities and now is very involved with individual development accounts and ensuring that there's assets for all people, and when people have assets,
they actually make the right decisions, i.e. investing in themselves, investing in education. That's why I started with the first slide, because I think you make a very important point. We all care about the overall economy, but the competition is we can't just bring you private sector jobs for everybody. People have to have the right skills to do it. This discussion today is on the demand side. There's a lot that Arkansas is doing on the supply side, but if we don't ensure that jobs are here, as good a job as we do in raising education standards and ensuring that everyone has the skill level that's needed even to take some
of what would be called traditional manufacturing, now they're requiring higher skills. If you don't have at least a high school degree, in fact, it's beyond high school. It's post-secondary at this point. If you don't have that kind of skill level where you can learn math and you can apply it and you can understand how to do and read instructions well and understand how to do problem solving, I can't promise anybody a job that could support their families in the future. So we have to have the kind of effort that you've done here in Arkansas,
but you also have to have the effort to grow the high-quality jobs here or what you'll be doing and I've met a lot of folks who grew up in Arkansas who work in Connecticut where I've done a lot in Maryland in fact I met a CEO who's come back to Arkansas now to help create some companies who spent his most of his career up by Johns Hopkins University hoping to create companies so while I would like to be able to say my dad was electrician he did you know just got through high school and had a you know was able to support his family those kinds of things are not there even to be electrician today requires more than
Speaker 57
25:44
simply high school we're gonna land this plane soon okay thank you
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
25:51
now I don't hear you saying anything different than the members see seated around this this table have said in order for there to be progress in the state and in order for there to be opportunity and jobs and the like and competitiveness we have to have good education is that all you basically saying I'm saying good education alone
Speaker 18
26:16
will not give you the economic development reason I understand we need people like you for that we need we need the companies coming through the knowledge economy initiatives for that all I'm doing is reporting back on it but I do agree continued effort and that's where those talent bridges have to happen is it good enough simply to educate a kid or do you need to connect them to jobs here in Arkansas and and ensure that they see the future for themselves here and then ultimately working to bring this more you know I heard that you know with your fruits that you're natural gas when you put up
natural gas and you put up electricity of captive power gives you an opportunity to bring manufacturing back here but again it has to meet a new standard of skill level thank you I don't know if you want to comment on
some of the company if you want to take one or two minutes to to bring this to
Speaker 14
27:09
a close that would be Great. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. What I will do is I'll be glad to provide your committee with a list of the companies that Innovate Arkansas is working with.
In their three years of operation, they have made tremendous strides, and they've done a lot in working in all places in Arkansas and meeting with economic development groups in Arkansas. So I'll be glad to provide you with a list of those to bring us back to the reason that we're here today. It's because these state agencies have done a tremendous effort in their economic development efforts in Arkansas in creating jobs that are high-paying jobs, that are raising the
per capita income of Arkansas, and are also showing you and the citizens of Arkansas that we can compete with the other states so thank you so much for giving us this opportunity we'll be glad to answer any questions after the after your meeting thank you very much and thank you for being here ladies
Speaker 1
28:17
and gentlemen you remember we have a special order of business today and that is Senate bill 2
representative King I believe pardon
me whoa senator King and representative Stephen Meeks please take your seat at the end of the table thank you madam
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
28:37
chair madam represent Nichols have a question a procedural question yes
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
28:43
sir does this piece of legislation require a physical impact statement and has one
Speaker 1
28:55
been done that question was asked of me and I am not positive of the answer yeah
we'll hang on we'll we'll take
Speaker 1
29:28
care of that the house rules state that it's prison education and retirement bills require
Speaker 19
29:37
a fiscal impact so the rest of them just have to be requested by the presenter if I'm not mistaken pardon me the sponsor please excuse me
representative Nichols you asked a second question if there
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
30:01
was a follow-up to my first has one been requested and
you can ask the sponsors that question thank you very much gentlemen if you'd like to begin
Speaker 1
30:12
Please lean into your mics. Oh, Representative Altus. Thank you, Madam
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
30:18
Chair. I think this may be a procedural question, too. I was just given an amendment that obviously hasn't been engrossed. Correct. And then she was saying there are two more amendments coming? I don't know about that.
Speaker 1
30:34
I do know Senator King told me that he has an amendment to his bill. I'm assuming I mean, that's what's in your hand, that he was going to ask us to approve at the beginning?
Speaker 88
30:48
I don't know about the other two yet. Are there two more coming? Madam
Chair, can I address? Hang on just a second.
Speaker 90
31:00
Hang on. Representative Wilkins? Madam Chair, I'd like to request a physical impact on
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
31:04
this. I think this is an important bill that we need to
look at the cost. Okay. We'll talk about that in two seconds. I'm answering questions we haven't
even presented yet. I'm loving this. Representative King. And I'm hoping to have answers to like half of them.
Speaker 93
31:20
Okay, Madam Chair, which question you wanted me to address first? Fiscal
impact? Yes. Has there been a fiscal impact?
Speaker 94
31:28
Basically, this bill's been filed for several months. It was pre-filed, Senate Bill 2, so obviously pretty early in the process. I have not seen DFA or anything come up with a figure yet on anything. This bill's been out there. They certainly have the opportunity. I can tell you the other day when Senator Soberfield ran a bill for the Secretary of State about increasing number of flags, DFA showed up and said how much it costs.
So they're obviously, if many of you have been down here, they're not bashful about coming and speaking against or giving their opinion. Okay. I haven't heard anything to add. So the answer to that question was no? On DFA's part. Now, I have done some work working with the Secretary of State and our IT people to try and come up with a cost figure. And I assume you'll share that in your presentation. We will have that at some point in time. I don't know that I have that with me, but I'll give you an example of what we've discussed. Okay,
hang on. You can do that in your presentation. The next question we need to answer is do you have one amendment that you're wanting to present at the outset?
Speaker 94
32:25
Representative Meeks has an amendment that he would like to put on. It's a friendly amendment,
too. And I can explain it to you. Okay, Representative Meeks, you're recognized to present the
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
32:36
amendment. Thank you, Madam Chair. Basically, the purpose of this amendment is there was some questions as to how this would affect military personnel, and we've gone back and taken
a look at that, and that amendment tries to address that issue. Okay, members,
Speaker 23
32:57
Members, you have the amendment in your tablet. It should
be on the tablet. Could I add just to the... Can
Speaker 94
33:09
Representative Meeks basically explain what it does, please? Okay. Basically, one of the things in the provisions early in the bill, they outlined a passport. And so there was some – we addressed the new card that would be issued to somebody that doesn't have a photo ID by the clerk. That was addressed, but it wasn't put in one of the – like in Section 1,
or, as you see, a driver's license, photo identification card, concealed handgun, United States passport. We just basically are adding that and clarifying that the new card issued by the county clerk at no charge would be included. The second part is, is this bill deals with two types? We're still on the amendment. We're still on the amendment. On the second part of the amendment, deals with, there's two parts to this bill. There's in-person voting with the photo ID requirement, and that would require, like, when you show up to vote at the clerk's office for early voting or election day.
The second part deals with absentee. One of the criticisms that this bill was receiving and has always received is it does nothing about absentee votes. We are going to address absentee vote, and I'm more than happy to cover that later. We'll cover that later. But this would just be a provision to say that military voters that are deployed or out of the county would, on their absentee part, would basically do things as they've done before. And we might have to have, Madam Chair, Martha Adcock with the Secretary of State, explain some of the technical details if people need more questions.
But I just want to emphasize,
Speaker 19
34:42
this is a friendly amendment. Okay. Thank you. So we're on the amendment. Do I hear a motion? Not
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
35:06
quite. Question. Question. Representative Walker, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. At present, a person may obtain a ballot through a process known as a bearer.
Speaker 112
35:15
B-E-A-R-E-R. Are you familiar with that process? I am a little bit, but if you don't care, Representative Walker, and for the permission of the chair, I'd ask Ms. Adcock with the Secretary of State to come up if we possibly need to answer
that question. If that's okay with the chair. Hang on, just a
Speaker 94
35:39
minute. We're still dealing with the technical issue up here. Basically, Representative Walker is asking a question, and it may require, if I could, ask Ms. Adcock, the Secretary of State, to come.
Speaker 116
35:47
Thank you. Could you adjust your mic so it's – there are two mics down there.
Speaker 103
35:55
Yeah, I thought one was there. Oh, okay.
Speaker 118
36:00
All right, thank you. Is that working? Yeah, it's not working. All right. Ms. Adcock, you can answer this question for
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
36:07
Representative Walker. Thank you very much. You're recognized. My question, Ms. Adcock, so there will be no misunderstanding, is
since Arkansas law authorizes a person to obtain a ballot through a
through another person and that person is called a bearer how do you deal in this particular bill with the
concept of photo identification being submitted by the applicant to
Martha Adcock
Unverified
36:35
okay the the bearer the The only responsibility of the bearer is to transmit that ballot from the voter to the county clerk's office.
And so the responsibility then is put on the voter to comply with everything that they have to submit. Because you have an inner envelope in which the ballot goes in, and then you have a voter statement which
Speaker 77
37:05
current law. Excuse me, Ms. Atcock. I am not seeing a discussion of absentee in the amendment I have in my
Martha Adcock
Unverified
37:14
hand the only way it addresses that is that the for the military those those individuals
because they are outside the county they will would receive an absentee ballot okay so although
Speaker 76
37:26
it's not mentioned I said directly I see right but bearers
Martha Adcock
Unverified
37:30
is not mentioned in the amendment and really there's not that much discussion here because the process for what a bearer does was not amended by this bill the only requirement is that the person who is voting then has to provide some
Speaker 123
37:45
sort of identification in an absentee ballot okay so represent Walker what
Speaker 20
37:52
you're just wanting to make sure is someone who's absent from
the county when we're looking at the amendment
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
38:02
definitively a person may be be incapacitated or otherwise unable to cast his or her own ballot correct this
Speaker 76
38:08
is not addressed in this specific amendment
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
38:11
so the question the question becomes does this change does this amendment I'm trying to deal with the amendment does this amendment address the situation of the bearer that's all my question then short answer
Speaker 70
38:22
is no thank you I appreciate short answers
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
38:26
representative Nichols thank you madam chairman senator King you you've mentioned the role of the county clerk in providing some type of ID what what what is your amendment what responsibility does it put on the County point of order yes representative Clemmer do we not need to address the
Speaker 134
38:58
amendment when you say address the amendment
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
39:04
what do your question is to the amendment I misunderstood your
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
39:08
question well when senator King was presenting the amendment he mentioned the counties and responsibility counties so that's what I'm
Speaker 1
39:15
trying to okay so so correct but getting just to the amendment the amendment doesn't address that whether he said something ask your question again how does it absolutely
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
39:29
does your amendment maybe I misunderstood you or misheard you but I thought you said something about the county officials when you were presenting the amendment does does this amendment deal with the counties at all
Chair
Unverified
39:46
may I may I respond you're recognized thank you if you look at the first line proof of identity means one a
Martha Adcock
Unverified
39:54
voter identification card under 753 22 that's in the main section of the bill and in that section is where it discusses the
responsibilities of the county clerk so in referencing that the voter identification card was added specifically as a proof of identity that's how it's impacted by this amendment but all the responsibilities that you may be going for are directly in the full context
Chair
Unverified
40:18
of the bill the full bill thank you for
clarifying that does that help represent Nichols
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
40:25
yes ma'am I'll ask some questions on
the bill thank you very much representative
bill I'll recognize you for that motion
Speaker 12
40:38
all those in favor aye all those opposed
nay the ayes have it let's get to the
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
40:51
bill I think madam chair are there not several other amendments
um okay hold on I've got one in my hand who else is in the
Speaker 19
41:00
room please excuse me representative Edwards you're recognized thank you very much I have an amendment that
Speaker 151
41:15
is should be before the committee now I had a
Representative John Charles Edwards
Unverified
41:22
a conversation with Senator King on Monday we discussed this matter I know we have a disagreement about the context of this amendment but as I've told my young nephew it's here in committee with me today this is how democracy works and we have our chances to speak and talk what my amendment does is first on the kinds of things
that can be evidence of an entity, we add a...
Representative Allen Kerr
Unverified
41:56
Excuse me, Madam Chair. We don't seem to be able to find the other
Speaker 103
42:09
amendment. Two seconds, please. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is everyone finding it on their
tablets? Okay. And Representative Edwards, lean into
Barry Haas
Unverified
42:20
the mic a little bit more. Welcome to your nephew, Cade. Thank you.
Representative John Charles Edwards
Unverified
42:26
We add that a public library card issued in any library could be used as identification. We delete. There's a provision, I believe, that's still in the bill that if an ID card is more than four years past, expired, that it's no longer available to use for ID.
We just, in my amendment, I delete that provision in there. So, in other words, if there's a photo ID, even if it was five years, the ID card was expired, it could still, that ID card could still be used for purposes of being able to identify yourself at the polls. I have a, in my case, this was the last military ID card I was ever issued. It expired earlier last month.
And this is a very reliable card. And I would think that someone, you know, several years down the road could tell it was still, you know, who I was. And for purposes of identification, I think it would still be valid. But the amendment deals with that. The amendment also, the bill as I currently understand it, if someone presents themselves at the poll without any kind of photographic ID,
They are given a ballot, provisional ballot, and then they have to go back to the courthouse at a later date, election commission, you know, to present evidence that they are who they are, either through an ID or signing a statement. What I've got in this bill, I kind of flip that. If the voter appears at the poll and if they do not have any photographic evidence or any other form of identification, and they're unable to produce some, they would sign a statement under penalty of perjury at the polling place.
They would be given their provisional ballot. Then there would be a comparison check of the signatures, and if everything checked out all right, the vote would be counted without the necessity of that individual having to return either to the Election Commission or a courthouse, wherever they were. I think that Senator King's amendment has addressed my concern on the military issue.
I do have that in my amendment. When I initially saw the bill, the bill did have coverage under a federal statute that is intended to protect overseas and military voters. My concern about the bill as it was initially written was that that federal statute, 42 U.S.C. 1973 FF, my concern about that was that it only covered federal elections.
It didn't cover local elections. It didn't cover state elections. So, in other words, if there was an election in Arkansas where there was not a federal race on the ballot, there could be some gaps, the possibility of a gap. Again, this amendment would address that, and I believe Senator King's amendment has addressed that. And finally, you know, I've got a provision in there that I reiterate that if unless the ballot is otherwise challenged,
you know, someone who's made the statement under penalty of perjury at the poll, they've signed that statement and everything checks out, you know, that there is no further requirement for them to appear before a county commission to prove who they are. They could prove and provide that evidence subject to challenge while they're at
Speaker 161
46:39
the polling place. And that is my amendment. Thank you, Representative Edwards.
Speaker 103
46:51
Please excuse me. Representative Westerman. Thank you,
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
46:55
Madam Chair. Representative Edwards, looking at item J on your amendment, it says a copy of a current and valid photo identification or a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the voter. Doesn't that essentially do away with all photo identification requirements in the bill? I think
Representative John Charles Edwards
Unverified
47:20
that people would still have the opportunity just like they do right now.
If you go to vote today, you're asked, you're requested to provide an ID. It's not the law. This is another option for someone who doesn't have a photo ID, and it actually tracks what we would be doing with absentee voting. So that's kind of why I just mirrored that. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1
47:49
Any other questions from the committee on the amendment?
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
47:54
Representative Hobbs. Thank you, Madam. Chair. Representative Edwards, I realize that not all libraries probably treat things equally,
but at my public library, I had to show a driver's license in order to receive a library card. Is that not true at all
Representative John Charles Edwards
Unverified
48:12
libraries? You know, ma'am, I have no idea. I've had different things come up at different places, but this suggestion came from Bobby Roberts with the library system here in Little Rock and so that's why I added it on there they may do something at some point in the future along this line okay
thank you thank you madam chair thank you any other questions from the committee
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
48:41
on the amendment representative Altus thank you madam chair could we have a comment or something from the sponsor of the bill on the on this amendment would either of you like to comment on
Speaker 112
48:59
the amendment I appreciate mr. Edwards is a interest in my bill and I explained democracy
Speaker 94
49:05
you're recognized senator oh thank you madam chair the he can he can run a bill after this passes if he wants to change it this is this is not part of my bill as Representative Westerman brought up a good point. This takes it to a different direction. As I said, there's two parts. We're addressing in-person voting and absentee, and he's basically trying to marry the two, and the two are two separate types of voting, but we're addressing this with the photo identification to vote,
and I would, with all due respect, I'd appreciate a no vote. If Representative Edwards feels this is important, he can certainly, before the bill filing deadline, run a separate bill to try and amend this and you'll have that opportunity process but I would appreciate to run our bill as amended
Speaker 12
49:59
as we've amended thank you all right thank you very much any
Speaker 175
50:04
other questions represent Nichols this is this is for the chair
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
50:08
if you look on page six of the bill it talks
about responsibilities of the county clerk and house rule 38 p1 or P I can't remember for sure correct that's what we're discussing right now requires a if they go into impact county that there has to be physical impact statement so I think we need to stop our consideration the bill until we receive that impact statement under our house rules since in in my opinion as
Speaker 1
50:39
we're discussing it And up here, I don't think stopping hearing the amendment is the appropriate action because it's still dubious as to whether there's a fiscal impact to the county clerk.
Speaker 19
50:51
We just know that there is an impact to the clerk at this point. So because we have a special order, I would like to go
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
50:59
ahead with hearing the bill today. Well, I don't think we should vote on the bill unless we have this impact statement. I mean, they can say there's no impact, but I think our House rule is clear on it that there should be an impact statement done. If there is one, fine. If there's not, then the taxpayers of the state of Arkansas need to know what that is, and that's a very important consideration on passing a bill,
what type of impact or lack of an impact it's going to have. But there are duties placed upon county clerks, and there will be a cost associated with that. And we need to have that information before we consider this bill. And
Speaker 1
51:37
while I respect what you're saying, and the parliamentarian was just here, It was not a clear answer as to whether there was a fiscal impact on county clerks. So I would like to hear the bill today. Well, that's
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
51:50
my point. We don't know, but we do know there might be.
Speaker 1
51:54
You cited that it was a clear House rule, and I'm citing that the House rule is not clear on whether we have
to have a fiscal impact. I disagree
Speaker 138
52:05
with the chair on that. I respect that. So we're
Speaker 1
52:10
going to go ahead and hear the bill today, and I will visit with the parliamentarian a little further while we're hearing on the bill. I'm going to guess it might be a few minutes.
Your presentation might be a few minutes, which would give me enough time to visit with
Speaker 181
52:30
the parliamentarian further. It was kind of meant – Can
Speaker 94
52:34
I make a statement, Madam Chair? Yes, you may, sir. You know, this bill's been out there for a long time. If it required an impact, they would have already came. As I mentioned earlier, DFA came and talked about the impact of Senator Stubblefield's bill the other day in Senate committee. Thank you. Two years ago, this same bill came before this committee, and we never had an impact during that whole process as well.
Speaker 1
52:59
we're getting some more information Richard Wilson said it does not require one so I've got
Speaker 19
53:05
a parliamentarians who said he's not sure and Richard Wilson who says it doesn't so
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
53:11
and madam chair if I might the cost you represent you're recognized represent thank you manager that the cost of this is more by the state not by the county clerk so that's that's in the bill so there should be minimal
Speaker 1
53:27
no impact of the counties we're gonna go ahead and here on the bill not
hearing a motion on the amendment on a do pass I'm assuming there's a motion do pass on the amendment all those in favor aye all those opposed nay the nays have
Speaker 12
53:46
it please go ahead and present your bill
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
53:50
thank you madam chair and I'm also I'm also going to ask former Representative Dan Greenberg to join us at the table, too, for some expert testimony. Members of the committee, I'm honored to submit to you the...
Speaker 1
54:05
Mr. Greenberg, you're welcome to the table. Please join them. Thank you. Identify yourself again, please. Dan Greenberg
Speaker 190
54:15
with the Advance Arkansas Institute, Madam Chair. Thank
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
54:18
you. All right. Let's go ahead. All right. Thank you, Madam Chair. What I'm going to do this morning is to try to answer as many questions as possible. The committee is I'm going to make a few opening statements, get into the details of the bill, what it does, what it doesn't do, and then try to answer some of the critics of the bill.
And then, of course, we'll open it up for questions and go from there. First off, everyone at this table respects the integrity of our voting system. As a matter of fact, when the majority of us run for office, we all have push cards. And just to kind of give you an example of how seriously I take everyone's right to vote, on most push cards, you know, we put our picture and we do a few points, and then on the back we tell about our careers and whatnot. But what I did on the back of mine is I actually put quotes from the founding fathers
on why it was important for members of the public to get out and vote. And what I want to do is I want to start by reading you one of these quotes, and it says, Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a Compliment to please an individual or at least he ought not so to do But that he is executing one of the most solemn trust in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country and that was said by Samuel Adams and Unfortunately, you know I think the vast majority of our Kansans probably take voting as a solemn trust they do their deal Joe diligence
but unfortunately there are members of our society who believe that somehow that their voice is more important that their voice should count more that they somehow know better than the rest of us and that leads to voter fraud and that's what leads to the necessity of bills like this I wish everybody treated it with the solemn respect it's due and bills like this weren't necessary but unfortunately that's just not the society that we live in so the point of this bill is to try to protect the integrity of our voting voting system And what I want to do is let's kind of walk through the bill real quick, what it does, what it doesn't do,
and then we'll try to address some of the concerns. The bill says that when a voter goes to vote, they need to present a form of identity. What kind of identities are we talking about? We've looked at some of those in the amendment, the voter ID that's provided by a county clerk, which we'll talk about in a little more detail. It can be a driver's license. It can be a concealed carry handgun license, a passport, an employee badge or identification document, a military ID card, a student ID card issued by a post-secondary educational institute in Arkansas.
It can be a public assistance card, or, again, it can be that voter ID card. So unlike some states that have just three or four specific documents, Representative King and his team have done due diligence to try to make this as all-encompassing as is possible. On absentee, anybody who votes absentee, this is on page 2 of the bill, lines 27 through 31. It says anybody who is voting absentee can either submit one of those valid IDs that's listed above, a current copy of a utility bill, a bank statement, a government check, a paycheck,
or any other government document that shows a name and address. So, again, we've tried to make this as easy as possible. I know there's some concerns with our senior citizens, but all of our senior citizens, or I'm sure the vast majority of them do get a Social Security check so even if they can't get their birth certificate they have trouble getting to get one of these free IDs they do have this there are the exemptions which we've already talked about when we went over the the amendments so I won't retill that
ground the bill also this is on page six it requires that the state make available for free at no cost to the voter a voter ID card that is a cost that will be borne by the state the bill says in on page seven that this is not to take effect until January of 2014 or until the state is able to provide funds through the Secretary of State's office to the county clerks to be able to set
these systems up now what kind of as far as the the fiscal impact what are we talking about here we're talking about a camera some software and a way to print a card it's not an extreme expense to the state so that's a little bit about the bill well let's talk about some of the critics as far as why they say this is bad one of the the critics voter ID is that this creates a poll tax they say that when we make citizens of our state drive to the county's clerk's office
that there's expense involved in there. Courts have ruled that that is not unacceptable. They say that's not considered a poll tax. There is talk that this bill somehow discriminates against this group or that group. There is nothing in this bill that discriminates against any group. All groups are treated equally. Some groups will say there is no voter fraud. There's no reason for this.
Well, a little bit of work on the Internet. And I found 10 pages worth of voter fraud activity in just the last six months. Now, will voter ID solve all these? No, but it will address a lot of these. I'm going to go over a couple of these. In Ohio, authorities, and this is in the last month, authorities are investigating if a person voted in the name of four other people this bill would help to address that again in Ohio a woman said that she voted twice during the 2010 general
election and Indiana a longtime Democratic Party worker will plead guilty to three call counts of voter fraud and just a you know this is not a Republican versus Democratic thing it swings both ways in Massachusetts there were two people that were accused of taking 280 residents who are registered as Democratic and unenrolling them and then going and re-registering 280 people for absentee ballots so this
this gate swings both ways. There's one here that I really like. This one happened just in our neighbor state in Tennessee. A father cast an absentee ballot. Then the son went and voted in person. Then he went and changed clothes and went and returned to vote in the name of his father. So between the two of them, they voted more than once. Here's a 61-year-old man in New Jersey who's getting five years in prison for submitting phony absentee ballots.
Voter impersonation, this is in Minnesota. And I could go on and on, and just so you don't think that Arkansas is not immune from this, Hudson-Hallam, we're all familiar with that case, so I won't rehash that one, the voter fraud there. But also here in Arkansas in 2006, there was illegally cast ballots. This was absentee ballots that were sent in. They went and looked at the names, and there were about 40 contested absentee ballots. The names did not match the signature on the voter rolls.
In 2006, in another case, similar situation. In 2003, and I've got these court cases here if anyone's interested. We have, this is Sherry Tate Smith versus Couples. This is an absentee ballot fraud, double voting, non-resident voting. so this is actually this has this has happened in our state in other states there's been concern that you have to educate voters that this is something
they need to do I don't think we're gonna have that concern in Arkansas we order we were already require our county our poll workers to ask for an ID and if you talk with many voters or some voters that already think this is a requirement because we already asked them to show an ID so we're not talking about a big educational expense and then last I'll finish off with saying that this bill does have wide support amongst the public usually when it's polled it polls at over 70% among voters and I think I heard mr. Greenberg said that even among
minority voters it polls at over 60% so with that I will conclude my remarks and see if senator King would like to add anything to
Speaker 94
1:03:03
that Madam Chair, I'll just be available to ask questions about the technical part or just a brief statement. You know, this issue has been polled by credible polls in Rasmussen that poll this well above 70 percent. And we know in our political climate today, for an issue to poll that well, there must
be a lot of good things for this to happen. We know that showing a photo ID is just an everyday part of life that we have to do We've written provisions in here that deal with the person that may be 86 years old or 98 years old That still wants to go vote on election day And that person the same way someone might take them to go vote on election day They take them to the county clerk and they'll get a Photo identification with no cost So we've tried to make this bill very sensitive to those type of people and voters.
As Mr. Greenberg will point out about other states, it's passed photo ID and how the turnouts went up. I believe he'll address that. The other part is about the absentee part. And we know that in absentee voter fraud, one of the things that we did in there was that we put, if you submit your absentee ballot, now you have to submit a copy of your photo ID or a copy of a government document with that. And what that will allow to do is somebody's following a mailman and taking absentee ballots out of the mailbox. That crook that's trying to commit voter fraud will actually have to work harder to get actually a copy of their government document and put a copy.
So we've actually tightened the absentee ballot process to help prevent voter fraud in this bill, too, as well. And I'll be glad to answer questions, and I know Mr. Greenberg or Ms. Adcock could help take
Speaker 66
1:04:50
questions as well. Thank you. Mr. Greenberg?
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:05:00
Let me make a brief point about one constitutional issue, because we often hear concerns that requiring voters show a photo ID at the poll impinges on their constitutional rights.
I just want to suggest to you that it's a commonplace of American life and American law that we require people to show ID when we participate in all sorts of constitutional rights. If you want to go inside a courthouse, a federal courthouse, and witness a trial, in many courthouses, you're going to have to show ID. If you want to go petition your government, for instance, if you want to go petition our Attorney General in Washington, D.C., if you want to get inside the Justice Building in Washington, D.C., you're going to have to show an ID. That's a First Amendment right. I am told by the staff at the Pulaski County Courthouse that if you want to get married,
you're going to have to produce photo ID. Getting married is a basic constitutional right, which also requires photo ID. And, of course, those of us who are a little younger looking than perhaps some of us here are quite familiar with the fact that if you want to purchase alcoholic beverages, you're going to have, in some cases, to show ID. And that is a public accommodations civil rights issue. I believe all four of those things are basic constitutional rights. and furthermore all four of those in some cases will require an ID so it's
my view generally that the argument that this somehow impinges on people's constitutional rights to be requested
Speaker 196
1:06:23
show ID is constitutionally baseless I'd be happy to go into more detail about that but
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
1:06:33
that's my statement and with that madam chair will
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:06:38
yield the floor to any questions yes I have a question for I have a question for Mr. Adcock do you know what the percentage of Arkansas
voters voted in the 2012 do you know that or if you don't if you don't that's okay but we had
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:06:59
a high turnout in November you know we normally do for for a presidential election. What about the
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:07:05
primaries? Do you know what you have any idea? I can pull those, and if you will go on
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:07:11
to other questions, I'll get that information. Okay, let me ask you this. Lower
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:07:19
in the primaries. Is it true in Arkansas that we have a very low voter turnout, generally speaking?
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:07:28
Are you wanting to compare us to other states in terms of registered voters versus turnout? I want to
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:07:34
compare it to the number of registered voters in Arkansas that turn out
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:07:38
to vote. If you're looking at percentages, we are not at the top in terms of turnout. I don't
Chair
Unverified
1:07:44
know how hard down we are, but we're not at the top in terms of turnout.
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:07:50
We're what I consider low most of the time in primaries. I would like to see more people
participate. Now, do you not agree that this will make it more difficult to vote for some people?
Speaker 205
1:08:04
and that's where I'm answering the technical questions in terms of this
Chair
Unverified
1:08:09
and I think in regards to the policy I think they're dying to take this question we already asked folks right now and poll workers do ask for an ID and in some counties the poll worker demands it even though they're not necessarily what will they
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:08:24
do in the county alley event and or at least in my polling place I know that they're asking for but but you know you will also have the provisional ballot
that is acceptable if they don't have ID through under the provisions of the bill
Chair
Unverified
1:08:41
if you don't have an ID then you would be voting a provisional ballot we do that now no sir right now if you don't show ID then all they do is there's
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:08:55
a box there and that box is not marked as to with this to say that you did not that you did
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:09:01
not remember they're not doing things in Craighead
County apparently the way y'all think they are because
in Craighead County you vote a provisional ballot if you don't have ID
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:09:13
when you go to the polls well I'm I'll tell you how
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:09:18
how it is there my wife and I the last time she She was able to go to the polls and voted, graduated from high school with three of the four poll workers. I had to return home to get her driver's license to show that she was who she said she was,
I guess, even though everyone in the poll booth except one had known her since she was six-year-old. And we were given the option of voting a provisional ballot and then going to the courthouse and proving who she was the next day, or me going back and get the driver's license. So I think we do have good election laws. I can't argue that there's
not fraud, and this is not going to change fraud. Most of the fraud is dealing with absentee
Speaker 220
1:10:18
are they not? I think it's going to depend
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:10:21
on your election. But generally speaking, most of the fraud we have in Arkansas is dealing with absentee ballots. I think if you
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:10:28
look at what the report it is, I think if you look at some of the allegations that were made back at the
Chair
Unverified
1:10:35
original, not even necessarily dealing with the last election with Hudson Hallam, but the first one. Well, Hudson Hallam was absentee.
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:10:43
That was an absentee fraud. yes that have nothing to do with this bill that's what
Chair
Unverified
1:10:48
was convicted for but some of the allegations that were made we're concerned with what he's
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:10:53
convicted for are we not I mean I could accuse you of doing anything if you're not convicted in court it really don't
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:11:04
work I thought you would ask me the question about both others and so I was trying to say that there was some there were
Speaker 19
1:11:11
at least her allegations in regards to election day allegation okay thank you
Representative Greenberg, it's just easier for me to call you representative than mister. Okay,
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:11:20
but I'm officially a free man now, Madam Chairman. I respect that, sir. You know, Representative Wilkins asked two questions that I'd like to speak to if I could. And one is how much weight you give to suggestions of vote fraud when there's no conviction. And the second question is, what's the actual behavior, what's the actual evidence of what happens, right, when we have this new voter ID requirement?
I'd like to speak to those two things if I could. So first, I want to suggest respectfully that we're making a mistake if we're going to say, look, unless there was a conviction, we should sort of assume that it didn't happen. I mean, we all know, as a matter of course, for instance, and I don't want to get in too much personal detail here, but we all know, for instance, that speeding takes place on a regular basis. And yet it is not prosecuted. I mean, I think all of us have, you know, many of us have been guilty of speeding. This is perhaps the wrong room to use that example in because some of us with the legislative license plates feel the sting of that a little bit less than the rest of us.
Please move on. Yeah. But, I mean, in fact, we all know that there are things like speeding that a lot of people commit on a regular basis that aren't prosecuted. So it's a mistake just to say, well, we can only look at convictions. I think there's probably more to look at than that. Second, I guess I would say when we start talking about kind of what happens in the real world, there are different ways to kind of look at it than to say, well, we can predict what's going to happen if we pass this rule. I think the better way to look at it is to say we ought to look at the evidence.
And let me say a little something about the evidence of what has happened in various states after we've passed voter ID. OUR EXPERIENCE IN THE LATTER HALF OF THE LAST DECADE WAS THAT VOTER I.D. LAWS IN SEVERAL STATES LED TO INCREASED VOTER TURNOUT IN 2008, AND INTERESTINGLY, ESPECIALLY INCREASED MINORITY AND DEMOCRATIC TURNOUT. NOW, FOR INSTANCE, AND I ACTUALLY LEFT THIS INFORMATION ON Y'ALL'S DESKS A FEW DAYS AGO, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE 2008 GEORGIA STATE ELECTIONS, WHICH IS A VOTER I.D. STATE, THE STATE SAW ITS LARGEST TURNOUT IN HISTORY, AND THAT WAS NEARLY 4 MILLION VOTERS.
The Republican turnout increased much less than 1%, and the Democratic turnout was up an astonishing 6 percentage points, rising from 23% of the voting population at 29%. And overall turnout in Georgia increased 7 percentage points from the 2004 election, which was a turnout increase that was greater than just about every other state in the country. And what you can do to really understand the significance of this is compare it to demographically similar states. IF YOU LOOK, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE NEIGHBORING STATE OF MISSISSIPPI, WHICH HAS NO VOTER I.D.
REQUIREMENT BUT IS KIND OF DEMOGRAPHICALLY SIMILAR TO GEORGIA, THE DEMOCRATIC TURNOUT THERE INCREASED BY JUST TWO PERCENTAGE POINTS. SIMILARLY, IF YOU LOOK AT INDIANA, WHICH HAS THE NATION'S STRICTEST VOTER I.D. LAW, DEMOCRATIC TURNOUT INCREASED BY 8%, WHICH WAS AN INCREASE LARGER THAN ANY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY. AND THE NEARBY STATE OF ILLINOIS, WHICH HAS NO PHOTO ID REQUIREMENT, ALSO SAW AN INCREASE IN DEMOCRATIC TURNOUT, BUT LESS THAN HALF OF INDIANA'S INCREASE. SO I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, THERE'S PRETTY STRONG EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THERE'S A POSITIVE CORRELATION GENERALLY WITH VOTER TURNOUT AND
VOTER ID STATES. NOW WE CAN THEORIZE, WE CAN MAKE GUESES ABOUT THE REASON FOR THIS. IT MAY BE THAT PEOPLE ARE MORE CONFIDENT IN THE INTEGRITY OF THE BALLOT, BUT I THINK THAT THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S VOTER TURNOUT INCREASE, And I just haven't seen any evidence that, on balance, there's a voter turnout
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:14:54
decrease. Thank you. Representative Wilkins. I would like to respond to the allegation part. I can't give you the facts and figures that my good friend, Representative Greenberg, can. But let me – the allegations. I mean, we can make allegations against anybody.
And everything that's been cited here is dealing with absentee ballots or is dealing with other states, what happens in other states. now I don't you know I'm not really interested in what happens in other states I'm interested I am very interested in Arkansas but just to say well this has happened but we ain't caught it I mean the good thing is representative leaks there mentioned all in people they had been caught and prosecuted and I sit through the Senate
debate and we talk over and over against
Hudson Hallam and the fact is Hudson Hallam was caught so so I
think we have a very good voting laws
in place don't you agree I just I just want to make
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:15:56
sure that I understand your question right are you are you suggesting that if someone's caught then therefore there's no problem and if someone's not caught therefore we shouldn't take that allegation that seriously no no what
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:16:12
evidence that people are not doing this and not being called.
We don't have that evidence. I mean, you can't make an allegation that somebody's feeding or doing anything else. Sure. Let
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:16:21
me say one other thing about that, Representative, and I hope you agree there might be some force to my point that we ought to look at other things besides convictions, but, you know, more generally, you know, I sort of work in a lot of circles with people who come from A BUSINESS BACKGROUND OR AN IT BACKGROUND, AND IF THEY WERE WORKING IN THEIR OFFICE AND SOMEONE SAID TO THEM, WELL, THIS PROBLEM HASN'T HAPPENED YET, SO WE DON'T REALLY NEED
TO WORRY ABOUT IT, THEY'D BE KIND OF SURPRISED AT THAT SORT OF ARGUMENT BECAUSE PART OF THE NORMAL ROUTINE IN THE BUSINESS IT WORLD IS THAT YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT REASONABLE RESPONSES TO LIKELY PROBLEMS. AND IT
Speaker 238
1:16:56
APPEARS THAT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A REASONABLE RESPONSE TO A LIKELY PROBLEM. As always, Representative
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:17:04
Greenberg, I respect your opinion. I wanted you to hear mine, and I'm going to leave this to other people a question. Thank you. Representative Valtas.
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:17:16
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm learning all the time, and I have several questions. But I did learn when I was in the Senate, we had a request from two different men to seat them in the Senate, Arnell Willis and Jack Crumbly. and so we had hearings and those
hearings lasted several days and it was amazing all the information that came out in those hearings and I'm sure they were recorded and all that information is still on file but both of them
evidently had tried to to hire this lady to and she called herself the absentee queen and somewhere around 500 absentee ballots were it's it came out in the in the hearing that somewhere around 500 absentee ballots she had signed and and so you know I've learned a lot from that but on page 2 line 27 through 33 I don't understand what what you're trying to accomplish because the
absentee balance it says that that a current utility bill or any other government document a bank statement I mean you know it seems like to me I don't see how you're you're improving anything because on page three line eight nine and thirteen and fourteen it looks like the same thing I don't think I don't see how you're improving anything we could go to the landfill or the or a trash can
and come out with a lot of different items like this and and go vote for these people so I don't I don't see how you're improving anything plus line 31 through 33 what it what is the difference that's one question okay how are you improving it number two the second question how are are these two groups of people different the group in 27 through 30 and the group in 31 to 33
long long-term care facilities don't have to provide any proof of identity whatsoever is is this an absentee ballot do they file absentee balance all
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:19:43
right I'm gonna do my best to go through each of the
Chair
Unverified
1:19:47
questions and then if I don't get provide a good answer for the technical then come come back if you look at what the differences are for what is done absentee versus election day there are some states that just have election day and in-person voter ID okay
And the senator wanted to try and address something and do it for and take a stand and say, let's do some sort of an ID here for even those that are voting absentee. But the senator, and he expressed this to me, and I know he's out of the room, but hopefully I think I'm hopefully will articulate this correctly. he he articulated
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:20:26
to me that he knew of elderly folks within his county that he said they still wanted to vote and they don't
Chair
Unverified
1:20:33
have the form of ID because
they're they're living within their home and they don't get outside of their home and they need the ability to be able to vote absentee and did not want to put a hardship on them because sometimes if you're no longer voting you really don't get out much then you're not going to have some of these forms of ID in terms of a photo ID and so he then wanted them to allow them to provide something which would say which would which would indicate to the Election Commission and those that are then tabulating the vote that this is the person this is the address where they are registered to vote and here is
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:21:10
some sort of a proof of an identity that they actually live at that address and so it is a first excuse me it's a first step in terms of dealing with the absentee ballot issue
Chair
Unverified
1:21:22
now you asked a specific question which I want to address and this is going to get in your head and be confusing but everything that you looked at on page three
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:21:33
when you talked about the exception that's already there there is an exception because of federal law and this is federal law if you are a first-time voter who registered by mail and when
you registered by mail did not provide identification with your registration you are tagged in the VR system and before you
Chair
Unverified
1:21:54
are allowed to vote a regular ballot you must provide a form of ID and
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:22:01
that is what you're seeing on page three and that is that provision so that is already current law and that is there because of federal law requirements but it's a real narrow group that it applies
Chair
Unverified
1:22:16
to first-time voters who registered by mail and when they registered by mail they did not provide an ID with that registration so now is this
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:22:27
a provisional ballot that they would file okay
Chair
Unverified
1:22:30
if they bring their ID to the poll then they get a regular ballot if they
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:22:36
do not provide the ID then they put a vote a provisional ballot and then are supposed to then provide the ID for the provisional then to be counted but that is already current law and since that is
current law with that same language that's why the senator said let's just adopt that language because it's already there it's already in place and we do that but again it's a very narrow it's for most of you who voted since you're 18 and you know you don't even know that this provision exists but it is there and it does impact a narrow group because most people when they register to vote to be perfectly
Chair
Unverified
1:23:14
honest they provide an ID with it they provide a driver's license number and a copy or for the last days of a section okay back
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:23:24
to my second question what's the difference between the people that file an absentee ballot
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:23:32
and the people in the rest home okay if again we were again the senator was trying to be
Chair
Unverified
1:23:36
sensitive to the folks that are in a nursing home and then a lot of folks when they move into a nursing home you don't always take everything with you okay you're in the nursing home and then if and I'm not trying to disparage any
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:23:49
particular nursing home but there are some that worry about theft and they worry about you know they worry about that so they
don't take the ID with them and so for a lot of them if they're in the nursing home there's already provision in the law which says that an administrator if the if somebody is living in the nursing home and they want the administrator to get the ballot for them then they can sign the affidavit and you know sign it and they can say I want the administrator to get it so the administrator then breathe and gets the balance so what we were trying to do for those folks because again they may not have identity with them but you would
have the affidavit of the administrator to verify this is who this person is this person lives here etc so again it would be an ease for those who are living in one of those long-term
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:24:41
care facilities I see so much room for fraud in this I just I don't like your bill but but it I think it's step in the right direction but but like all of us have campaigned at rest homes I'm sure and we've talked to the administration at the rest home
to get permission to talk to the residents and whatever. And then
Speaker 249
1:25:03
when we leave, they say, congratulations, you know. And so you know who's voting. You know, the people in the
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:25:13
rest homes are not voting. It's the administration in the rest homes that are voting, and they vote any way they want to because it's an
Chair
Unverified
1:25:22
absentee ballot. That's already, and again, I don't want to speak for the senator on this one, but that's already in current law that is an exception that an administrator
can gather the ballots for someone who lives within a nursing home or other type of facility with their written permission and can bring those ballots then back to the nursing home this bill does not change that in the sense that this bill doesn't didn't create this system this system was already here under current Arkansas law so what
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
1:26:00
would prevent the absentee queen from from
walking into the ballot from walking into a polling place I mean I'm exaggerating here somehow what would prevent an absentee queen from from coming up with several hundred ballots and saying either these are from a rest home a nursing home or
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:26:24
people not with this bill not this bill at all but current Arkansas law provisions allow only the administrator of the nursing home or that other long care
Chair
Unverified
1:26:33
long long-term care facility to be the one to
get the balance and generally in counties in many of the counties they know that the other provision that you have which was passed this last session is that there's a provision now that a bearer can only take two ballots and so for in terms of delivering there's only two and those those were enacted during the 2011 session to help address some of these issues that you're talking about but that's a different bill representative Clemmer question Thank You mr. chair
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:27:22
I think this is going to be best for ms. Adcock do you know
how many poll watchers we had in Arkansas last year how many polls had poll watchers do you have a record of that that is kept within each of the local
Chair
Unverified
1:27:37
county clerks and I know I don't know that I'm gonna look at my county clerks I know they're in here somewhere I don't know that that's gathered I don't know that that's pulled together okay and I
Speaker 256
1:27:47
have two county clerks that are sitting back here
Chair
Unverified
1:27:53
one's from Clark and one's from Boone and in Clark she had one and
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:27:58
Boone she had none I know Pulaski person okay Pulaski they're guessing
Chair
Unverified
1:28:07
around 50 so I think it's going to vary by county but that is housed in your county
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:28:15
clerk's office my county clerk from Saline is also here Doug Curtis he motioned me that there were four but that is based on the whole county correct yes I mean
I mean, we're guesstimating here. It's been a while since I've worked the polls, but I did work them on a number of occasions for over a span of quite a number of years. Yes, long time. Is it not true that the only person who can challenge a person's identity is the
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:28:49
poll watcher? When they're standing, yes. You have to have somebody who's authorized as a poll watcher.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:28:55
A poll worker does not challenge a ballot. Is that not correct?
Speaker 216
1:29:03
I don't think, I wasn't prepared for that question. I don't think so, but I'm going to go back and look. But I don't think that
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:29:13
they challenge. If I went into a poll, well, my questions go to my understanding, and I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong. I don't want to advance incorrect information. But my understanding is, if I have an ID, excuse me, if I go to the poll without an ID and I identify myself, the only person that can tell me, we don't believe you are who you say you are, is a poll watcher.
If we don't believe, you know, if you don't live in your district, and then that leads me to the point that if we have very few poll watchers, possibly not even one per precinct, and oftentimes for one candidate or another, there really isn't anyone to challenge whether someone is the person they say they are, which, and is that incorrect to your knowledge? or to anyone's knowledge down there?
To my knowledge, that's not incorrect. I mean, are there any county clerks that could speak to that? Well, I guess the rationale for my question is that that really speaks to one reason we wouldn't have very many vote fraud challenges because there is very few minutes there, and this is a question. Am I correct that from the time you put your name on the, when you sign in,
and until you get your ballot, that is the time frame for challenging a person's identity? That is correct. And that is normally in my polling place about 30 seconds or one minute. You do have
Speaker 222
1:31:00
a limited amount of time because after the ballot's been, yeah, it's before the ballot's received. So if I'm
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
1:31:06
not who I say I am, then that would be about one minute someone would have to challenge my ballot. Because once I have my ballot, I am a voter. Is that not correct? Yes. Thank you.
Speaker 90
1:31:20
Thank you, Representative Wilkins. Can we have a
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:31:27
follow-up with that? Well, I mean, I just wanted to generally agree with that and suggest that maybe in some cases we have a system that cosmetically appears just a little more secure than it actually is, which I think is kind of the broader thrust of your questions, Representative. And similarly, this whole system we have where each voter is asked to show ID currently, but then it doesn't matter what the voter does or whether the voter shows ID or not.
Again, I think it's fair to call that something like a dog and pony show. I mean I think that that's a cosmetic system that really appears upon casual scrutiny to be a lot more secure than it actually is and I I appreciate you bringing attention to the difference between the appearance of ballot integrity and
Speaker 196
1:32:11
the reality of ballot integrity which I think are two very different things this act how is this bill
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:32:26
going to change that or we're gonna put more poll
workers out there I mean I'm confused as to what we already have four poll workers out there it's my impression that anybody can challenge a vote at any time after the vote if they know of if they know of someone who is not legally has voted illegally that can't they challenge that vote there's no way to know what
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:32:49
that person's vote is so they can then in the sense remember once you oh excuse me you said there what
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:32:55
now I didn't hear I don't know whether you
Chair
Unverified
1:32:59
vote on IVOs or whether you got on paper but once you vote in your IVO and you you know you hit that last button that
Speaker 220
1:33:07
vote is then in the machine and then folks can't come back to say oh we know Rep Wilkins did that
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:33:15
wrong let's go back and take that particular ballot and scratch those off and not count those votes okay that you cannot do now if they then find out your prosecutor may want to come after you yeah but in the sense of the casting of the ballot and
then if you use the paper ballots once it's fed into your m100 or put into your ballot box then you can't go back
Speaker 273
1:33:37
and pull that out and say oh no this is what I'm
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:33:42
just slightly confused to how this bill will change that effect because if they
presented that if we're presenting an ID already and they're allowed to vote then how are
we going to how is this bill going to change well and then
Chair
Unverified
1:33:57
I know there are others that were shocked at what went
on in your county so but in most counties I would dare say in most counties
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:34:07
and probably almost all of them the voter is not required to provide ID before being given a ballot it is not by Arkansas law the poll watcher and the poll worker of the watcher excuse me the poll worker ask you for your ID but if you do not provide it there's there they're
Speaker 144
1:34:28
still supposed to provide you a regular ballot and allow
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:34:32
you to vote again I thought just a second ago or just a couple minutes ago you said that they were offered a provisional ballot if they
Speaker 205
1:34:45
didn't have an ID you said that what I was talking about there is that one
Chair
Unverified
1:34:51
little group and that's the new registrations first-time voter who registered by mail did not provide ID that particular group and that's a very small window
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:35:01
in my county everybody is asked for a voter ID when they go they're asked for a picture ID
and if they don't provide it or they vote on provisional ballot you
Chair
Unverified
1:35:17
know that's that's that's what I think they're trying to accomplish with this bill is what's going on in Craighead so I do have your numbers just as this FYI November was 66.65 turnout May primary 21.82 21 yes sir and
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:35:31
that was sometimes you have as high as like 25 within your primaries
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
1:35:35
that that is what is so that is what is so disappointing about voting anyway I think you'll agree
with that but it seems to me that we're trying to make it more
Speaker 280
1:36:01
difficult to vote then what Richie recognize her question Thank You mr. chair a couple of questions I guess a few questions on the you represent me she said that you know the
costs are basically a camera and some machinery to make these IDs are
Speaker 281
1:36:20
we're gonna have one camera we have a camera in each county is it gonna be in the county clerk's office who's going to be responsible to make these IDs can they do it on the day of election so we have people in line on election day to get IDs in the county clerk's office I mean so where
Speaker 282
1:36:38
all the details with that I'm gonna try to answer some
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
1:36:41
of these questions and my two experts here may jump in behind me it'll be one for each county clerk one in each county clerk's
office as I said the expected cost is roughly three thousand dollars based upon the knowledge that we have as far as somebody being able to go and get an ID on the day of election as you know that you've got a certain window of time was it one month three weeks before one one month before an election that you have to register to vote so if you're don't have your it doesn't seem there'd be a need to get an ID after the fact on election day
Speaker 283
1:37:22
since you're having to register to vote. Well, if you're already registered to vote, but you don't have an ID.
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
1:37:31
Well, it seems like when you registered to vote, if you went to register to vote at the county clerk's office, you'd
Speaker 280
1:37:36
also get your ID at the same time. Well,
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
1:37:39
an elderly person who registered to vote years ago. But as far as this bill goes, there's nothing here that says no. As long as they've got the proper documentation, there's no reason why they can't get an ID on Election Day, besides probably just having
Speaker 280
1:37:52
to wait in an extremely long line. okay well another question be when I read the through the bill there's a lot
Speaker 281
1:37:58
of copies of things that can be provided for this copies for that so I mean it seems to assume access to a copy machine which in rural poverty communities where I live I mean we don't have Kinko's anywhere so are they gonna be able to go to the county clerk's office and get these copies made There is currently
Chair
Unverified
1:38:21
nothing in the bill that provides for a free copy then for that to occur. But part of that is the copy can be, if the voter wants to, they can send in and, you know, they can do a photocopy of what they want.
But if they have a gas bill, they've already paid the top portion of it. They can take that bottom portion if they want to and mail in
Martha Adcock
Unverified
1:38:43
that portion of the bill without then having to make a copy. so there are some of these things and that was part of the thought process behind why to put some of those things in there because there are some of those things that then it's disposable then by the the voter and the person living within the county so they wouldn't have to go make a copy it would be something that is there within their home that then they could say I've got this
Chair
Unverified
1:39:08
because if you're gonna use a stub you know for a check you know that shows your address on it or if you're gonna do a gas bill you know take that bottom portion after it's paid it's got the information on there with
Speaker 280
1:39:21
the address and then you could provide that maybe I'm paranoid I just like to hold
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
1:39:26
on to those things just dispose and our goal here representative is we're trying to maintain the integrity of the system while still being as broad as possible for providing documents so we're trying to find a good balance here what we're attempting
Chair
Unverified
1:39:39
to do and there is rulemaking authority in here for and I think some
Speaker 120
1:39:43
those details if they go out some of that actual detail may come out of the rules
thank you for your indulgence we are trying to work out the house rule as far as it goes according to this just
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:41:03
a minute representative Walker represent Nichols I recognize you yes thank you madam chairman under house rule 38 p1 and also Arkansas code annotated 19-1-303 B1 I am requesting a physical
impact statement that that impact statement be placed on the desk of each member of the committee before the bill is called up for final action and I would request that my request be honored but in the spirit of trying to get everybody heard I would not object to you delaying your ruling on that until after we've had a number of the gays and nays present their testimony thank
Speaker 1
1:41:44
you very much do it does everyone understand that according to house rule if a
committee member requests a fiscal impact whether it's required or
Speaker 19
1:41:52
not if the house rule says the committee chair shall take that under advisement I was looking for May it's not May it shall so here's what we're doing we've called Richard Wilson in he's going to work on a fiscal impact for us however because this was under special order several people are here in the audience that have come
Speaker 1
1:42:15
requesting to speak for or against this bill we will be taking this
back up in committee after we received a fiscal impact which Richard Wilson has assured me just went to the top of his to-do list and the committee will then have plenty of time to speak but in deference to the people who have come here just to speak for or against this bill vice chair Wilkins and I have agreed we would like to hear from them at this time so with the committee's indulgence do you have any questions on the house rule and what we're doing
right now okay then with the committee's indulgence I would like to allow the public to speak those who have signed up there are several of you for or against this bill we would like to give you your time now please note the time it is a little before noon they're going to be some stomach scrambling so we would like to get out of here in a timely
manner so be aware of the time as you come to speak representative Walker point of order
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:43:23
yes I'd like to be heard because
I will be unavailable after the next
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:43:37
sir thank you and thank you just a minute representative Walker the people
Representative Sheilla E. Lampkin
Unverified
1:43:43
who are presenting the bill have left the end of the table so mr. Greenberg is
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:43:50
still here they go primarily to him okay mr. Greenberg it appears that this is a
partisan bill sponsored by persons who are generally more affluent than the people who would be adversely affected who are aged generally unemployed and and who live in more impoverished communities than others. I take it that you all are aware of that when you do that, when you make this presentation, because it's not upper-income people who are the ones
whose votes are being challenged.
You are aware that those are the ones who are not
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:44:41
being challenged. Can I? I'd just like for you to answer that if you can, because I'm leaving. So
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:44:45
what is the question? Am I am I aware that of the people who are being chose votes of being challenged? Are you aware that they are mostly persons who are either elderly? Underemployed Unemployed or minority. Well, I really don't agree with that. I
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
1:44:57
mean I I when you say challenged I mean I do you mean technically challenged because speaking generally in those in the other states where you mentioned
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:45:05
I think representative makes mention a number
of states and you have all of these issues We noticed in Milwaukee and in places where you have those concentrations of voters, largely Democrats. That's where the challenges take place. Now, I don't want to get into debate on that, but let me make a couple of points because of the generosity of the chair. This bill has no financial statement, but it has no racial impact statement. Mr. Meeks indicated that he is a fan and devotee of Samuel Adams' statement,
and I applaud him for putting that on his on his advertising card but I remind you mr. Meeks that Samuel Adams was a person who wanted to limit and did limit the vote so that women couldn't vote and black people couldn't vote and I would hope that you no longer put that on your card
for the future represent Walker I really wanted to
Speaker 1
1:45:58
use as much time as possible before we recess for lunch to allow the public because as a committee all of us on the committee are going to get to hear it again. Are you going to have
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:46:10
another date for voting? Yes, sir. We cannot.
Speaker 1
1:46:13
We can't vote. We've agreed to not vote on it today. We have to have the fiscal impact. And I apologize. No problem. I probably wasn't really clear. I have several people signed up to speak on this bill. Stu Softner, Barry Haas, Sherry Walker, Gloria Gordon, Daniel Lilly, Holly Dixon, William
Alameen, Wendell Griffin, and Rhonda Cole. If all of you are in the room, we're going to come up
Speaker 1
1:46:42
in that order one at a time.
No, we're not. We're going to do four against. Okay, this is easy. There's only one four, so we're not going to have to necessarily go four against. So if you're in the room, you're welcome to speak today. If you want to come back, we're probably going to hear this again Friday or next Wednesday. So I'm just giving you a heads up on that. We want to hear from you. So let's start with Stu Softner. He signed up to speak for it. Not in the room. Barry Haas. Barry Haas, please come to the end of the table.
Identify yourself. And excuse me, sir, you're not allowed to wear a sticker at the table. it's just a one of those rules and could you please be brief
Barry Haas
Unverified
1:47:28
as you could tell there were several other people wanting to speak as well thank you thank
Speaker 306
1:47:35
you madam chair members of the committee my name is Barry Haas I want to for the record I want to note that when I entered this building this morning I was not asked to show any identification I was able to come into the Capitol
without showing an ID I was checked for a concealed carry weapon which I did not have on me. I'm a longtime poll worker. I'm the chief judge of a polling place that has roughly 5,000 voters here in Pulaski County. I've seen how various obstacles can be put in the path of voters and discourage them from actually getting to the point where they cast their ballot. I'm also a veteran. I came to Arkansas 46 years ago to serve at Little Rock Air Force Base on a nuclear missile launch crew. In my four years active duty,
I'm very interested in protecting the right to vote. This controversial, and I might add, mean-spirited bill is not needed. The sponsor has said publicly back in 2011 when he first presented the bill and again recently that he could not give you one single example of voter impersonation here in the state. And, in fact, nationally, there have been about 10 prosecuted cases of voter impersonation.
We're not talking about absentee ballot. This bill deals with voter impersonation, somebody going into a polling place and pretending to be somebody other than who they are, pretending to be somebody who is eligible to vote there. Now, this bill supposedly provides what's a so-called free voter ID card. There are roughly 80,000 Arkansas citizens, 18 and older, who do not have a driver's license. So you potentially could be disenfranchising as many as 80,000 Arkansas citizens.
Now, a number of you on this committee, for example, Representative Hutchison, you live in Poinsett County, correct, sir? No, he's not here. He has voters who live in Lepanto. They would have to drive to Harrisburg, which is the county seat. That would be a 58-mile round trip. It would take them over an hour round trip. It would cost them time when they're there at the county seat trying to get this free voter ID. That cost in mileage is over $32.
They're losing an hour of wasted time. They're losing time off their jobs, which most low-income people cannot afford to lose. As Representative Walker said earlier, and several others have said, the design of this bill is not to prevent voter impersonation fraud. The intent of this bill is to disenfranchise groups. Excuse me. Yes, ma'am. You can
speak your opinion, but you can't say the intent of the bill, because you can
say you think the intent of the bill. Yes,
Speaker 193
1:50:33
ma'am. But please be careful in your wording. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. My opinion,
Speaker 306
1:50:38
as a longtime poll worker and a voter for ever since I was 18 years old and have been privileged to vote, is that this bill is designed to disenfranchise specific groups of Arkansas voters. And in fact, in Pennsylvania, other speakers earlier who were proponents mentioned other states' bills. In Pennsylvania, when a strict voter ID bill was passed last year before the presidential election,
a member of the Pennsylvania General Assembly was caught on videotape in public saying that this strict voter ID bill was going to swing the state of Pennsylvania for Mitt Romney in the presidential election. Fortunately, that bill was struck down by a federal court and did not take effect. Again, this is a bad bill. It serves and it solves no existing problem. The penalties for voter impersonation, I don't remember. I think it's up to five years and up to $10,000 fine.
If you're going to steal an election, you're not going to do it by impersonating another voter. You're going to go in and manipulate these electronic voting machines. There are lots of ways to steal an election. This is
Speaker 309
1:51:48
not a way. I would ask you to vote against
Speaker 19
1:51:51
this bill. Thank you, Mr. Haas. I've also worked, and I find those machines are not easily manipulated personally. I've also worked the
Speaker 306
1:52:00
a question from a committee member? Yes, ma'am. Can I address your comment, though? Yes, sir. Computer scientists, there is lots of documented proof.
Computer scientists all over the country have studied the iVotronic and the scanners, both of which are used here in Pulaski County. There is lots of evidence that folks who are computer whizzes can manipulate what comes out of the machines versus the votes that were actually cast by voters. If they're physically by the machine, you're correct. No, ma'am, wirelessly from afar. that's interesting yes new information I would be happy to answer questions representative bill thank
you madam chair sorry I didn't catch your name but
one of the things that struck me is you mentioned that there is no existing problem and I'd like to hear from you how you would presume that you could prove that a person impersonated
Speaker 306
1:52:57
another when they're never required to provide an ID representative Bell every person who's an eligible voter was required to prove their identity before they voted the very first time the the question in this legis proposed legislation is should or must we be required to prove
we are still the same person every time we vote I'm 65 years old I voted since I was 18 years old. Do I have to prove every time I go in to vote that I am still the same person I was when I was 18 years old? It also, it's the cost earlier. Several members of the committee asked about the cost. I don't know why the sponsor is so ashamed of talking about the cost in the
Senate committee. Excuse me, sir. Again, you're using characterization.
He wasn't ashamed. He just simply
Speaker 314
1:53:51
said he didn't. Yes, ma'am. Sorry. Just be careful watching your words and testimony.
Speaker 306
1:53:58
Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Sorry, Madam Chair. In the Senate committee, sponsor Senator King used a $300,000 figure as the cost of buying the hardware that would be in the 85 county seats. As I understand it, 10 counties have had multiple county seats. Six years ago, when Representative Greenberg was pushing a similar bill, the cost figure he used was $2.25 million. So,
So again, there is a cost. This is a waste of taxpayer dollars. It does not solve any existing problem, and I would ask you to vote against this bill. It will disenfranchise Arkansas voters. As a military veteran, I find
Speaker 315
1:54:37
that offensive. Thank you. I've got a
hand up over here. Representative Bell. Madam Chair, with all respect to the witness, I believe my question directly related to how you prove that someone who presents himself as someone else is not that person unless you require identification.
And I want to point you to a specific anecdote that I'm familiar with. There was a gentleman who did an undercover video just last year of a young, about 30-year-old white man presenting himself as the Attorney General of the United States, and he was offered the Attorney General's ballot, who is a black man. Now, if that's not a clear indication that voter identification can be often misinterpreted, I don't know what is. How do you prove that I'm not who I say I am unless we have some means of requiring identification?
You can't prove that a crime is not existing unless you require someone to provide evidence. Representative Bell,
Speaker 306
1:55:38
I am not familiar with the specific case you cite, so I can't speak to
Speaker 1
1:55:44
that. Okay. I'd also like to comment. I was in the committee when Representative Greenberg presented this bill back when he was a representative. If I'm not mistaken, the $2.5 million number, Dan, if you could lean forward and nod on this, I think that was
Speaker 118
1:55:58
presented by DFA. That was not your number, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 317
1:56:02
If I could just make one point about that, Madam Chair. Point of order, Madam Chair. Hang on. Just
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
1:56:08
a minute. Just a minute. Yes, sir. This is
Speaker 175
1:56:11
set up for people to speak for and against. You're correct. If Senator King, he'll have his opportunity when he closes for his bill to respond to
Speaker 19
1:56:19
their basements. He'll be able to still testify for his bill more than just closing. You're correct. That was my ruling.
Speaker 1
1:56:26
Representative King, if you – pardon me, Senator King, if you would take notes to know how you want to respond.
next person up mr. Haas thank you for your testimony thank you for coming here today is
Representative Sheilla E. Lampkin
Unverified
1:56:41
Sherry Walker thank you miss Walker if you'd identify yourself
Speaker 320
1:56:44
with the end of the table for the record thank you madam
Speaker 321
1:56:48
chair mr. vice chair I'm Sherry Walker the volunteer state president of Arkansas at ARP my professional life was spent in education and public policy and one of those in in In that capacity, one of the things that I did, and I actually pulled out the report,
I was kind of startled to realize that it was 25 years ago, but it was called Arkansas Election Laws, a Comparative Study. It was done with a grant by the Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation on behalf of the League of Women Voters, who have been consistently concerned about providing a safe, secure election system for voters in Arkansas. That's 25 years ago, but the most compelling thing that came from my study was something
that has stayed with me, that the United States of America is the only Western democracy that already requires voting to be a two-step process. And Representative Meeks talked about that if you required voter identification, you would increase the percentage of people voting. In those countries, in those democracies, that when you become an age of majority, your
name is added to the roles of eligible voters. of those countries, the voter participation exceeds that of the United States. The right to vote is the most basic political right. Older individuals, we all know, from all political spectrums, vote in disproportionately high numbers. And AARP has long advocated for fair and simple procedures that facilitate this high level
of participation. Again, Representative Meeks referenced this most solemn trust. And that is a solemn trust that older Arkansans wish to take advantage of. They wish to exercise that most solemn trust. So we are here to express our sincere concerns about Senate Bill 2. Senate Bill 2 would place a severe burden on the fundamental right of older Arkansans
to vote. Older voters are significantly less likely to have photo identification compared to members of other age groups. There's no question that citizens over 65 would be particularly impacted. The older you get, the more likely you won't have a photo identification. Nationally, 18% of the elderly do not have photo identification.
That's according to the Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. I'd like to read just a paragraph I received from a member who said, As an older Arkansan, I'm very concerned about the bill requiring all voters to present a photo ID before they are allowed to vote. I'm concerned for the friends that I take to the polls because they no longer drive and don't have a driver's license or a current photo ID from a job.
The bill is very specific in that an expired driver's license will only be accepted at the polls for up to four years. If you stopped driving five years ago, you've lost the right to vote that you have cherished all these years. Unless, of course, you live in a nursing home. Under current state law, Arkansas voters who cannot produce a photo ID are asked to show a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the voter.
There are already adequate procedures in place to prevent fraud. They will allow you to use these ideas if you vote absentee, but if you want to participate in the civic forum by going to your polling place and appearing in person, those forms of identification will no longer be acceptable. Just imagine, and I think a couple of you have sort of referenced this, just imagine
you're 75 years old you've been going to your local polling place for half a century and suddenly you are asked to prove who you are if you don't have or cannot find your birth certificate necessary to prove that you're a citizen you will have to file an application to obtain a replacement depending on when and or where you were born this may not be possible we actually got a call from
an 85 year old man who had moved here from Texas and he was in his driver's license had expired and trying to register to vote he was going to have to get a birth certificate and he was born in Kentucky when he didn't when those births weren't registered sometimes we forget about those unintended consequences you know we talked about this just isn't a problem I mean it is
virtually no evidence of actual in person voter fraud now we've talked about problems with absentee voters absentee votes but in person voter fraud I mean, that's pretty risky business to go in and vote as someone else, not knowing whether they're going to show up at the polls or not. The real problem is not people trying to vote that should not.
Rather, it's all the people who should vote and want to vote but cannot because of rules that make it difficult, complicated, or costly to do so. So a key question is the cost involved, and I started to not speak until I heard the impact statement, but I think that is important, especially when we have so many needs in Arkansas, when we're all concerned about the government expenditures, that we would be willing to
expend money for a problem that doesn't exist AARP respectfully urges you to vote no on Senate bill 2 and protect the voting rights of all our Kansas thank you miss Walker would
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
2:04:19
question as a one representative Clemmer mrs. Walker I appreciate
your testimony and again as we spoke before I don't think anyone on this committee has any desire to keep a qualified voter from voting.
My question for you is for AARP. Do they do voter education to people living in nursing homes or their families? We do voter education. I mean,
Speaker 326
2:04:44
we do education. I don't know if it's specifically voter education. Are you aware that a number of people living
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
2:04:51
in nursing homes do not get to mark their own ballot? not necessarily because they don't wish to but because the nursing home administrator has the power to do so seems like to me that would be a very
Speaker 321
2:05:06
good cause for ARP to take on well we have national policies I'll
Speaker 1
2:05:15
check the book it may well be my next venture thank you very much thank you miss Walker I also have to comment on your penmanship excellent very easy to read next step is Gloria I'm being tapped
representative Bell thank you madam chair just to open the same the same question that came up in your
testimony that came up in the other testimony it's very difficult to prove that something is not happening if you're deprived of the evidence to prove this happening and the chief evidence in this case is identification I wanted to follow up on something you said though that really disturbed me you mentioned a older lady I believe going to the polls and suddenly being asked to provide identification aren't they currently being asked to provide identification that's the law in Arkansas but they
Speaker 321
2:06:06
but they are not required to do that and and if this law passed what would then happen if she did
not provide identification you know I referenced the study of election laws and I know that there may have been changes since then but when we completed this study we went around the state and that actually the legislature established an election laws revision Commission and we went around the state you know talking to folks about voting and it's interesting that when you sign your name at the at the polls that is a legal affidavit that you are the person
you are representing yourself to be. I mentioned that much of my professional career was as a teacher, and one of the things that I always had a feeling for was there's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you expect the best, you get the best. I think if we are trying to encourage voter participation, we have a simple procedure And we assume, unless proven to the contrary, that when that person signs their name,
that they are who they pretend to be. And I think when we do not have an evidence of a proliferation of people going to the polls and impersonating in person. Now, I mean, I think the possibility for greater problem is in the absentee ballot, and yet you won't let them use the same documents that you would let them exercise to vote absentee.
But there is not a problem in in-person voting fraud. Madam Chair, with all
respect, she didn't answer my question. I'd like to redirect. I would
Speaker 1
2:08:08
recommend that you visit with her afterwards. We're going to move along and land this plane by 1230. Ms. Walker, thank you very much. Gloria Gordon,
Gloria Gordon
Unverified
2:08:22
you're recognized next. Thank you. My name is Gloria Gordon, and obviously I'm with AARP,
but I'm also a long-term advocate for people with disabilities. And everything that's been said about the difficulties that this imposes on the elderly are equally or maybe even more so for people with disabilities who cannot drive, maybe have never worked or haven't worked for a place that has a photo ID and people who rely on other people
for transportation. There was a comment from a legislator that the elderly people can get the same person who takes them to vote to take them to get the photo ID. Well, when you're dependent on other people for every trip, every trip becomes a big deal. And if you live in Helena, West Helena, where distances are so far, it's a very, very big
deal if you're a person with a disability. So I'd like you to give some thought to this vulnerable group of people when you're also thinking about the elderly and what this means because there there is no group of people that values the right to vote more than people with disabilities and we've made the polls accessible and now we're expecting these people to go somewhere else again to get a voter
ID and just one last thing I'd like you to think about when you do that fiscal impact statement is that there's going to be some education required for the public on just what is and what isn't appropriate behavior when you go to the polls and what you do if you don't have the right identification. So that's going to be that a big chunk of change to do the public education.
So I'd like you to think about it and that's all I have
to say. Thank you very much for being here today, Ms. Gordon. As others are coming up to speak, please be mindful of the time. I do want to wrap this up by 1230, give enough time to get something to eat before all of us have
Speaker 1
2:10:55
to be in our next meeting. And please, if you have something new to add, get to that at the top of your testimony. Next one on the list is Daniel Lilly. If you're present, come to the end of the table.
Daniel Lilly
Unverified
2:11:15
Good morning, Madam Chairwoman. My name is Daniel Lilly. I'm a former U.S. Marine who settled here in Arkansas in 1995. When 9-11 happened, I was working for the Southwest Airlines Reservation Center and decided that I was going to stop driving on that day. And in the subsequent 13 years, I haven't operated a motor vehicle at all. Not once. I've been up to the state capitol three times now regarding Senate Bill No. 2. And each time, I had to walk 21 blocks to get here.
Now, I'm willing to walk 21 blocks because I average 23 miles a day as a dog walker. But there's a lot of people that can't. And there's a lot of people that would be affected by this that aren't old. They're not minorities. They're just people that don't have an ID. I'm one of them, and I don't understand what problem we're solving with it. I mean, why aren't we making unicorns illegal? It would have the same effect. All of these people are here talking about solving a problem that does not exist.
Speaker 333
2:12:16
And for all the 64 blocks worth of walking, I
just wanted to have my say. I appreciate that testimony, and especially talking about your exercise after I just mentioned
food was really appropriate. I could probably stand to walk as much as you do. Thank you, Mr. Lilly. Thank you, ma'am. Next up, I
Speaker 336
2:12:43
have Holly Dixon. I'm Holly Dixon. I'm the legal director at the Arkansas Civil Liberties Union Foundation.
Speaker 337
2:12:49
There's a lot we could say about this bill, but I'm not going to. The most important thing that I think you all deserve to know is that this is one of the strictest voter ID laws in the nation, filed in a state that has, if not the most, definitely one of the most protective constitutions when it comes to the right to vote. The Arkansas Constitution has several explicit provisions protecting the right to vote. this is unlike the US Constitution even though we know the right to vote is a
fundamental right under the US Constitution and it is so fundamental so says the Supreme Court because it protects all other rights the right to vote is a special right it's not akin to showing ID to purchase alcohol Arkansas has provisions in amendment article 3 section 2 of our state Constitution that do not appear in state constitutions in any other states including states in which voter ID laws have been enjoined as unconstitutionally
infringing on the rights of voters this is to say that this unique and very protective provision of our state Constitution should be a consideration and is likely an impediment to this law passing a legal challenge not only do we have specific provisions protecting the right to vote in our state constitution we also repeal the poll tax in amendment 51 and when we repealed that poll tax in
amendment 51 we also guaranteed to all Arkansans a system of permanent voter registration in this nation in this cut in this state I'm sorry we guaranteed permanent registration and that is section 4 of amendment 51 now that's important because 51 which repealed the poll tax says that you can only amend certain sections of the state constitution and it does that does not
include section 4 so if we pass a voter ID law which is setting stricter requirements on voters than what we have had in the past and that are provided for in our state Constitution we are undermining the protections that we have set forth in place not only in article 3 but also in amendment 51 and now no doubt part of the reason that this provision for permanent registration was included when we repealed our poll tax is because a lot of the people who were born in the Jim Crow South were never issued birth certificates there are
still people living today who don't exactly know how old they are and they're registered Arkansas voters they've been exercising their right to vote responsibly and we ought not disenfranchise those individuals so just hit on the cases in 2008 the US Supreme Court looked at an Indiana state voter ID law this the Supreme Court said it was constitutional on its face come back when it's been applied to the voters so what we know from the Supreme Court about
a challenge under the US Constitution in the First Amendment is that voters are going to have to be disenfranchised before you can get into court to seek redress we find that unacceptable and we hope that you would as well since that 2008 decision litigation has focused on facial challenges under state constitutions and laws have been enjoined in Wisconsin Pennsylvania Texas in South Carolina they don't have the provisions protecting voter rights that
our state Constitution does mystics and would you take a question sure
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
2:16:47
I'd be happy to represent clever I will just wait and break
Speaker 337
2:16:58
make my comments when the full committee's back thank you thank you go ahead there there are other states that have voter ID laws we know this but laws in
Delaware Connecticut Louisiana Michigan South Dakota they say if a voter comes to the polls and in signs an affidavit swearing that they are who they say they are there they can cast a regular ballot Arkansas law says if you do voter impersonate you can be convicted of a class a misdemeanor of a felony you can you lose your state government job you're never going to hold public office
Arkansas ought to trust its voters just as much as voters are trusted in these other states and the provision in this bill that allows a voter to go down to the county board of election by noon Monday following an election to swear their affidavit saying they didn't have the ID if that affidavit suffices at the county board of election it ought to suffice if the voter signs it at the
polls if it's the same affidavit then all we're adding is a requirement that the voter have to take this additional step of driving to their county board of election in order to do it. And in Arkansas, you all know, you may end up having to drive all the way across the county in order to make that happen. And it's hard enough oftentimes for working families to get out and vote anyway, much less take off to make a special trip in order to make sure that their vote counts. Also, as noted, this bill is more stringent on the voter who appears at the polling
place in person to vote than it is on the voter who registered absentee and is voting absentee the language for the absentee voter I believe it was representative Altus who had a question about showing an utility bill or bank statement or other form of identification and you would be allowed to vote absentee that language comes out of our state Constitution amendment 51 section 6 provides for utility bills bank statements government check pay check or other government documents showing that person's name and address
for them to register in and vote by mail it defies logic that we're going to require more of a person who is there then we are a person who we never see there are lots of other issues with this bill the First Amendment the right to vote is just one of them equal protections can equal protection under the law's concerns abound there are roughly 30,000 folks in nursing homes in Arkansas but we have about 600,000 who have disabilities and this bill does not
do anything to provide for those individuals to be educated to be accommodated to be assisted when they're voting so in addition to issues glaring constitutional issues under our state constitutional we have concerns under title two of
Speaker 339
2:20:04
the ADA thank you miss Dixon did I did
I understand you to say the right to vote was the first
Speaker 339
2:20:14
amendment I I didn't actually address it
with respect to the US Constitution yes first amendment has been
Speaker 337
2:20:22
interpreted to provide for the right to vote but when you read the US Constitution it does not specifically provide for the right to vote anywhere it has the later provisions ensuring that we do not disenfranchise certain groups of people but the Arkansas Constitution in article 3 specifically provides for and protects the right to vote unlike the US Constitution thank you I
Speaker 118
2:20:44
appreciate it thank you all right we are up to
please excuse me I should have written the phonetic pronunciation
William Ellamine Good afternoon. You're going to
want to say your own name into the mic. Once again,
William Elamin
Unverified
2:21:05
my name is William Elamin, and if given the opportunity, if granted the opportunity, I'd like to reserve my right to testify to the next full community
meeting. Thank you very much, sir. That's very honorable of you. Wendell Griffin.
Speaker 346
2:21:28
good afternoon madam chair mr. vice chair members of the committee my name is Wendell
Griffin I am an Arkansas voter I am an Arkansas elected official I'm an Arkansas pastor I have been voting in Arkansas since I turned 18 years old I was born September 23 1952 you can do the math I can't sir because we're very close I have been I have been voting in the same place for the last 25 years if this measure is passed
People who have known me on sight for the last 25 years would be required to ask me if I am someone else and would be asked to believe that I was lying if I told them I was not me. This bill is unnecessary. There is no, and let me simply say it the way we did it in Southwest Arkansas, I ten-time
double-dog dare anybody to prove a single case of voter impersonation fraud in Arkansas. The reason why I make that statement is from a statement by Sir Arthur Conan Dahl from his first Sherlock Holmes novel, A Scandal in Bohemia, where Sir Arthur Conan Dahl wrote, It is a capital error to theorize absent data. Insensibly, the mind twists facts to suit theories
rather than twisting theories to suit facts. If you have no facts of voter impersonation fraud, it makes no sense to presume that every Arkansas voter is defrauding the state anytime he or she votes. We do not develop vaccines for diseases we do not know about, and it therefore makes no sense to develop a cure for a disease that has never been found in Arkansas.
Lastly, I oppose this measure because it is absolutely wasteful. There will be a cost. someone says you may not get all you pay for in what you in this world but you always pay for what you get and we all know that if the Secretary of State has to develop rules requiring photo identification then there is a cost in promulgate promulgating the rule if the Secretary of State
has to develop a process for voter identification and people have to have the card there is a cost for preparing the cards if people have present the cards there is a time cost for presenting the cards it is time-consuming enough for people to go to the polls when we have people voting in elections as it is we are now presuming that every Arkansas voter lacks the integrity to know who he is and then requiring them to take more time to prove that they are
who they are shortly I will hope to be 62 years old I would like to think that the country I served as a United States officer in the army when I was young would not ask me to prove that I am myself when I turn 62 I would like to believe that I am as trustworthy to know who I am now and the people who have
known me the last 25 years are as trustworthy to say that they know me as they have always been the last thing I'll say is this I have done some small study of the law in my time I have taught constitutional law what miss Dixon told you about the law is very true let me put it this way if this measure is passed count on litigation being filed count on more money being
wasted to defend it it would be a shame for the state of Arkansas to have to defend a law that was not necessary because of a problem that doesn't exist in a situation where nobody living now or living and known the past has ever been defrauded of their vote I urge you please vote against this unnecessary
wasteful and if I may say so discriminatory legislation I'll be happy to answer questions Thank You mr. Griffin representative Wilkins
Speaker 103
2:26:52
sir thank you very much for your testimony
Speaker 350
2:26:57
you mentioned you're the veteran yes sir I'm United States Army veteran were you drafted no sir I volunteered I was ROTC I was distinguished military graduate United States I was wondering I was wondering if they required a photo ID for you to volunteer no as a matter of
Speaker 346
2:27:18
fact they are not when I showed up in ROTC at the University of Arkansas in 1968 everybody and I'm dating myself everybody accepted who I said I was I would say this if you were if you are an 18 year old person now if you turn 18 this year you won't have voted before in order to
register you have to approve your identification this bill if passed would impose a requirement on everybody who turns 18 this year and afterwards to show more identification when they vote then they do when they register thank
Speaker 82
2:28:16
you sir represent Clemmer represent a
Speaker 103
2:28:21
part okay mr. Griffin are you open to
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
2:28:26
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for taking my question, Mr. Griffin. I have very high respect for you and for your position. And there is a question here, and my question is to your statement
about, which was a pretty bold and blanket statement, and again, I respect who you are and what you represent here to us today.
you have attested that no one has been defrauded of their vote and you have testified that we have no problem and and I guess I don't understand the basis of that claim sir and to the civil rights civil liberties question earlier we're being cast in a very negative light as if we wish to take people's votes away and so before all these people leave and we leave for lunch some
won't come back I just have to say to you and there you can we can put a question at the end of this that I was but a young poll worker from a county with a horrible record on civil rights who repeatedly voted for people and people that never got close to their ballot and I don't understand why we think that's okay I want desperately for a qualified voter to vote but I want
just as desperately for no one else to take that sacred right whether it's someone in a nursing home or whether it is an African American a poor white a That uneducated person, we always saw the person defrauded of their vote was the person who could not read their ballot. And, sir, I was but that young woman working the polls, and I was told by a mayor of a small Delta town, and I can call name and I could probably resurrect the date.
Let's not. We won't. Who was told, little lady, hadn't you figured this out? This is about stealing votes. I steal all the votes you can steal, and you steal all the votes you can steal, and whoever steals the most votes wins. Said to my face by a local party elected official, I am of the belief that people have been defrauded of their vote. And I ask you again how you can assure that that has not happened when we know there have been bold attempts to steal votes in Arkansas.
Speaker 346
2:31:15
May I respond? Yes, sir. A poll worker in Arkansas who knows of an act of voter fraud has a sworn obligation to act on it, failure of which is a violation of the poll worker's oath. And therefore, I am not going to suggest that any poll worker would not take that oath personally or seriously, nor, however, am I going to suggest that all poll workers in Arkansas know that there is some voter impersonational fraud
and are uniformly failing to do their job. I am not going to sit here and impugn the integrity of people who have sworn that oath to protect the integrity of the voter process, nor will I sit here and impugn the integrity of every Arkansas voter by suggesting that any Arkansas voter would try to be anybody but himself or herself.
In our society, Representative, one is innocent, presumptively, until proven guilty. And voter impersonation is a crime. And unless we have proof of the crime, I am not going to require us to put a system in process that requires people to look for a crime we cannot prove.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
2:33:15
Representative Clemmer. a follow-up but we make laws requiring identification for cigarette purchases and for alcohol purchases until we make it a requirement to show an ID we have made assumptions about something we know is happening and I would submit to you that requiring an ID is a very basic function the shelters in Little Rock require an ID a poor homeless person has to have an ID stay in a shelter that we
are routinely showing an ID and 30 years ago 40 years ago when we were young IDs were not as required when you're 17 or 18 but to vote it is a pretty sacred right and it does not seem to me to be inordinate to ask for an ID to to participate in that wonderful American activity and we should assure anyone who wants an ID has one and I presume that you would not agree with that statement
Speaker 351
2:34:20
am I correct may I respond yes sir I would
Speaker 346
2:34:31
like to remind us that we require identification for people before by cigarettes and by alcohol because we have a history of people trying to buy cigarettes and alcohol underage we have a history of people selling alcohol to underage drinkers based upon that history we have enacted laws to punish the sale and purchase of tobacco and
alcohol to persons underage there is a fact upon which and Arthur Conan doll was right it is a capital mistake to theorize absence that what we're doing is we're twisting facts to fit the theory the facts are there is no proof now we may not like the fact that we cannot prove it but not liking the facts does not change the facts the last thing I'll say is there is a market I would
ask you to trust me to notice to be true there is a market in manufacturing for fake ID documents people can manufacture a passport people can manufacture a driver's license people can present a manufactured passport or driver's license this law does not punish the presentation of a manufactured document
thus the illogic of this law a person can manufacture a fake ID appear in the name of a person present the fake ID and will have satisfied this law and this is supposed to give us confidence in the integrity of the voting process I wanted to
recognize we have had a little girl sitting over here for two and a half hours how old was she the one we a two-year-old
girl sitting over there so quietly through two and a half hours I just want well what's her name I've just got to give her a shout out Jada Jada she just left the room congratulations two and a half hours I'm impressed we have
Speaker 1
2:36:59
one last person signed up folks and it's Rhonda Cole if you can come to the table if you have anything new to add I've got a Rhonda Cole has left the building then motion to adjourn so moved
Agenda
Charisse Childers, Accelerate Arkansas & Mitch Horowitz, Battelle Technology Parntership Practice
SB2
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Speaker 1
Representative Nate Bell Chair
Unverified
Speaker 7
Speaker 12
Speaker 14
Speaker 18
Speaker 19
Speaker 26
Representative John K. Hutchison
Unverified
Speaker 41
Representative John W. Walker
Unverified
Speaker 54
Speaker 57
Representative Jim Nickels
Unverified
Representative Denny Altes
Unverified
Speaker 88
Speaker 90
Representative Butch Wilkins
Unverified
Speaker 93
Speaker 94
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
Speaker 23
Speaker 112
Speaker 116
Speaker 103
Speaker 118
Speaker 120
Martha Adcock
Unverified
Speaker 123
Speaker 77
Speaker 76
Speaker 20
Speaker 70
Speaker 134
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
Chair
Unverified
Speaker 151
Representative John Charles Edwards
Unverified
Representative Allen Kerr
Unverified
Barry Haas
Unverified
Speaker 161
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
Speaker 175
Speaker 138
Speaker 181
Speaker 190
Speaker 66
Dan Greenberg
Unverified
Speaker 196
Speaker 205
Speaker 220
Speaker 236
Speaker 238
Speaker 249
Speaker 256
Speaker 216
Speaker 222
Speaker 273
Speaker 144
Speaker 280
Speaker 281
Speaker 282
Speaker 283
Speaker 299
Representative Sheilla E. Lampkin
Unverified
Speaker 306
Speaker 193
Speaker 309
Speaker 82
Speaker 314
Speaker 315
Speaker 317
Speaker 320
Speaker 321
Speaker 326
Gloria Gordon
Unverified
Daniel Lilly
Unverified
Speaker 333
Speaker 336
Speaker 337
Speaker 339
William Elamin
Unverified
Speaker 346
Speaker 350
Speaker 351