Revenue & Taxation- House

Thank you very much. All right everybody a chance kind of glance over the member real quick. Thank. We don't care members recognize yourself in your favorite presenter amendment thank you Committee chairman my name is Delia hock representative for district ninety one and county and I'd like to present the motion or a motion for looking out the amendment of the bill. Yes my word on the amendment. so looking out the new information we've worked with the department of finance and administration the state chamber of commerce and to the Municipal League to all agreed upon these changes to this to the bill yes changes the terms from. The public political subdivisions to cities and counties to provide to them electron a monthly electronic reports showing the cities or counties gross receipts and compensation and it List the different things that will be available to them in terms of their total gross receipts the total number of holders in that tax category and we're will be using the national American industrial codes looking out the four digit codes the current report they receive is not as helpful as it could be and so the entities have all work together to provide this information and And these are the Items for the amendment if it has any questions then this year amendment your bill right now yes Sir to any questions members. Just a regular McElroy. Okay we have a motion to pass for the moment. Any debate all in favor say aye. Posed read this ma'am the members been adopted disclose your bill. Thank you of this bill is asking for reports for decaffeinated that will provide information at the level that will allow the cities and counties to make better decisions for economic development at the local level the bill protects proprietary information for individual businesses and The Amendment at that has been worked on and agreed to S. as stated by DFA of the state chamber Municipal League. The Senator Ricky Hill is the Senate sponsor that's also part of the amendment I failed to mention as we all know cities and counties live on sales taxes This information is so important to them in terms of how they can better serve their communities and provide the needed services and with that if you have any questions I'll be happy to answer yes ma'am there's a questions Mr reviewing President hot help me understand what is the difference between what you're asking for then the and I I see S. report I can currently pole from DFI. So and and I'll ask if anyone would like to come up Mr Gehring from DF in a to answer that but we're looking at a deeper level of information that they'll be able to decipher. Yeah Paul if you don't care. Thank you Mr chair Paul gearing DFA there will be additional information contained in this report that's available currently under the confidentiality statute more specifically the actual gross receipts tax which is sales tax and compensating tax use tax that is going to be a collected on behalf of those businesses and remitted back to the counties by DFA. President of the group. Thank you chairman. This might be more questions per day of today this information I would be worried as a is it proprietory and that only the county to get an integer protection from for instance by have and let go but going to start a little business I want to know the information from the other local businesses in the community will I be able to obtain that if the bill does specifically say that the room information shall retain its of confidentiality as well as it's not going to be subject to release under the freedom of information act thank you. Thank you Sir. Another question major questions. Positive else you wanna add to the House of I do would like to express our appreciation for work working with representative Haak and a map up with the chamber on this bill thank you very much thank you president Putin. Make a motion to do pass offense appropriate okay it's going to be as may not let me get familiar with the is amended okay is amended a lot just for second place. Anybody also speak against the bill. For the bill okay numbered resembled you good real I make a motion do pass as amended I have a motion do pass as amended members any debate all in favor say aye. Those replacement pension bill thank you very much and welcome have a good trip. There's Wardlaw Universum. Okay. There yes okay members that a judge will skip down agenda. And that's going to be. This will be the house bill fourteen fifty six. Jeff Wardlaw representative district eight appreciated Mr chairman let me go a little bit ahead of the agenda so I can get over to another committee the bill we've already heard in here it's a short line railroad bill. Just a small impact to the budget according to D. F. and a we still think it's positive impact because it builds economic development builds at speed rail speed up a little bit and helps get commerce to the destination for a person to be happy to answer any questions. Yeah members also this is agreed upon bill four point nine million dollar hit I believe that right policy could yes please thank you this is agreed upon in the top six the property also so we have any questions. Anybody I speak against the bill for the bill you close for you bill Sir I am closing I appreciate a good vote president McElroy got motion. Motion to passing debate. Also a. No red lake surpassed Bill thank you Mr chairman commitment president Brown University okay here here's here's what took place representative browse bill is to be short sweet so if you come here to committee about several weeks ago we put her amendment on we doctor amendment but we held a bill but when bill when we run a bill for real Committee command committee without the amendment adopted so what I would like to do is have a motion to adopt the amendment again our bill was passed representative debate will debate it there but are still or same here Dr motion I have a motion for the bill as adopted is any debate on what we're done better so we're done all in favor say aye. Post regulation you pastor bill for the second time now. You have say a word yeah welcome M.. All right Representing million universal. Yeah. We're going to go down to the house bill nineteen zero four. Recognizer certain when you're ready just going to roll thank you Mr chairman representative Jon Milligan District fifty three would it be okay if I smell next come to the table with me absolutely. We want somebody to know something anyway. Hey you get in the delegate. A misnomer yes I did it. Hello I'm not Miller Mr Miller Nicks Mr Mullinax I got it I got it we all knew Julie we all knew that. All right recognize yourself please mail. Julia Miller Nicks I'm an attorney with Mullenix and associates speaking on behalf of the American rental car associations this afternoon and we represent enterprise rental cars. Thank you. House Bill house bill nineteen oh four couple year ago you'll remember the internet that sales tax where everybody had to remit their sales tax on internet have a group called Toro of who's gonna at eleven cars you can rent your car hi Rick my Carter vision by clear through this app and. They need to remit ever sell state they had been remit sales tax now I did meet with them yesterday met with Mr Duggar and they did have an amendment which we'll talk about a little a little bit more about the consistency of the law that we have now that conflicts with but you know and and they agree that they need to pay some the sales tax and also in the minute they agreed that they didn't that the individual would be. On the hook for the cell state of and we believe that the you know if we go through that I have that that they should be responsible for paying that not the person who knows the car of. But you know it like I said it's a furnished by you know we have enterprise her Chavis thirty dollar use a budget and national in Fort Smith here in Arkansas all in Arkansas business editorial does not have a office here in Arkansas and and that's okay and let her do business here but you know we're not trying to penalize or put it on anybody in one individual or a person and cost them money but you know and also. It got brought my attention the car sales tax has been paid on the CariDee but when you put it in business you know it for example my thoughts are you if I buy a computer for my personal use at home. And six months later I decided to start doing a business out of my home using that computer that computers cause me to have to pay sales tax was gorgeous same waste brought in more money so it cost you to do business as causative business. But Of. The card I'm ready just limits to the car sharing program seems to be complying with the law by collecting remitting sales taxes appropriate but they're resistant the collecting the rental vehicle taxes duties transactions transaction. Of the arguments I've heard. This to say that they're not a rental car company but only a technology company and online at each of the market place cells facilitator that they were affected by our internet sales tax law could make that same claim an attempt to avoid appropriate taxes it is notable that Turrell has called themselves the world's largest carsharing market place in their B. and B. for cars under Act twenty ACT eight twenty two two thousand two thousand nineteen air B. and B. McGuinness L. stake centers tax here in Arkansas as appropriate and like I said we're not gonna put on put on them anything that these other businesses are not having to do. But all that miss Monique she. May have something that I'm sure she does because. Mr Justin chairman's number point as you smarter makes. Thank. In Arkansas we do have to taxes that are levied on rental car transactions sales tax and rental vehicle tax the rental vehicle tax it is the tax I believe that to road that objecting to and they I'm sure they'll shed more light on that when they come to the table I will point point out also the date due road is not the only company in this business the car sharing program or online car rental there are many companies that would also be affected with this clarification of the law and that gig car share is it Kerr get around share now be higher carve six lesions so it's not aimed at at a company is just clarifying that this industry is one of the interest industries that should be affected when you establish the policy in twenty nineteen to say that online sellers we're going to be treated the same as in state sellers so the in state sellers on rental car transactions have to pay sales tax they have to pay big vehicle rental tax and we just believe that the online sellers should be treated in the same way and also one other thing I want to point out that there the rental vehicle tax is not a new tax it was established in nineteen eighty nine that's when that law was passed and as part of that law and. It twenty six sixty three three oh to a one C. says that this rental vehicle tax is levied whether tax was paid sales tax was paid on the transaction for the purchase of the car at the time of registration or not so the law is very clear on that that's been on the books since nineteen eighty nine so it's a little bit of a red herring that argument at about the sales tax of the purchase price because we all pay sales tax when we purchased cars for our personal use But you can't do that if you decide later that you want to use the car for business purposes and it says business transactions that are taxed when I put the car in the business transaction. Sorry with that we'll take any questions thank you I also got several Richard buddy good real I have only asked this question because it was mentioned in the opening you mention the amendment are proposed amendment could you share that proposed amendment with this well they want it detailed well it in an Arizona and Oklahoma believe being a president re with that here but the the. I can read the what they hang on just a minute here I can. This is not a compromise language has been recent Arizona home which when a president to roll it peer to peer platform the bottom line on that language is that if they if the host pays a tax on purchase. The no rental taxes due on the transaction if the host chooses not to pay the tax on the purchase that he or she must collect rental car tax on the transaction which if it back on the one rent a car so. A minute there it's the pretty long with them that's the gist of it. Hello motion of your at the yes I just wanted to say so just to be clear they're asking that that and no other marketplace facilitators treated this way they're asking that the sellers that are using their online platform have the onus on them to collect and remit the vehicle rental tax. And and this this is happening in other states that are allowing this and enterprises agreed to this in other state legislators have made that compromise we understand in Oklahoma and I didn't know if there is a reason the. Thank you thank you percent worn. Thank you Mr chairman. You may have shared this I see the minimums in here two hundred transactions a hundred thousand can you give me an idea of the volume that for us doing. In Arkansas you'll have an idea on that. We have looked an online at their what they're offering in Arkansas and at any one time we've seen like for cars up to seven cars available at the little rock airport so it seems like they're not doing very much business in Arkansas yet there in according to their CEO an interview with him there in thirty five countries and have fourteen million members of the very large worldwide it doesn't look looks like it would be a good time to level the playing field while they're not doing a lot in Arkansas. Thank you representative member. Thank you Mr chair I guess I'm just still trying to figure out why if it was agreed to by enterprise in Arizona and Oklahoma why not here in Arkansas I don't know if I've completely understood from what you've said if you could expand on that help me understand it more I don't know if that's been answered clearly maybe I'm the only one not understanding what you mean. Sure I would just say I don't know what the current law is in Arizona or Oklahoma for the bills were introduced there in Arkansas in twenty nineteen we established this policy for marketplace facilitators after twenty nineteen Airbnb Anna Toro has called themselves the Airbnb of cars that Airbnb collects and remit sales taxes and tourism tax both at the state and local levels so I guess the difference here is this laws established and we feel like this is a clarification and I know DFA's here if you want to hear their thoughts on that Mr. Remember you get. Yeah I'll bring my personal bit. President these are thank you. I wanted to kind of follow back up on what you said earlier about. Leveling the playing field making it fair I'm just trying to figure out how that works I know we've had some discussions enterprise doesn't pay. sales tax on the cars they purchased to rent. But I guess that's recover back on the cellum. Would be one question and the other one is. Does with the airports or I get which is what you mentioned earlier when they went one Turrell parked the cars at these airports and I guess enterprises parking on their to do they are they are they paying the same rate of parking as all the other one of our companies. Anybody that can answer that okay and so on the second question about the airports there's in this particular bill there is not any airport regulation I will go ahead and answer though that the traditional rental car companies that are there enterprise hertz avis dollar thrifty budget at all do business in the state have Arkansas employees close to three hundred collectively they rent space at the airports for where they park their fleets that counter space all of those things are paid for in addition to that they have agreements with the airports for per transaction fees as do uber and left fans that bring people to the airport from the off site skews me off site parking lots. So Turo is not regulated by our airports and has been resistant to be regulated although XNA has documentation they have tried since twenty fifteen to get them to submit to regulation they're being sued at four major airports across the country because they refused to submit to regulation. On the sales tax on transactions. At similar to any business that charges tax at the point of sale they buy their cars wholesale at the standard rental car companies do and and then the tax on every transaction every time the car is used. It's an with Truro if a person an individual puts a car they have purchased for personal use yes that person has paid sales tax if they purchase it for personal use and the CEO of Truro was just in a recent interview said that this is a quote from The Washington Post people are building small businesses on Turo car owners are telling us their businesses are booming and even as they add cars demand outpaces them so there are not just individuals putting their car on the weekends that so the people that have numerous cars on true I assume they would purchase those at wholesale because they're actually building a business center of. Thank you. Member center questions. Mr regiment Cllr. If I understand correctly this is you're asking about an industry wide thing but we can't mention to roll do we have an estimate of all these other app providers or third party providers whatever one column what is their volume of sales. I don't have the answer to that question representing the clear and no terror of at least claims to be the world's largest and their activity in Arkansas is very small so I would assume that others would be so even smaller but I don't I don't have the exact numbers this wouldn't affect very many people right now. The original questions. Paul can you go to a reserve member had a question for you Sir. Represent my going to situate yes your question again please mail. Thank you Mr chair Paul guarantee if I. Thank you Mr I guess maybe it just feedback from you this amendment that do have you seen the amendment that was offered are you familiar with what that I I meant Mayberry I haven't seen any a draft language of an amendment but I'll be happy to answer any questions about the fiscal impact or any other questions about the taxes. Okay I guess I was hoping that maybe you could give some clarity as to why that amendment wouldn't work here in Arkansas I guess I'm still somewhat confused if it was working and to other states. I guess but if you haven't seen the amendment thanks you can't answer that sorry that they could you okay. Risen body. VOL I'm I'm going here so I'm I'm going to ask questions in the impact statement you're saying the revenue impact is none that there is no revenue impact but if we're going to start assessing and and and and collecting this tax what is that going to generate for the state to roll and the peer to peer and difficult to say and I would like to give an explanation of why none is indicated this is that the the sales tax on on a rental of a motor vehicle and the the special excise tax this is a tax that's already owed those those individuals that are renting their motor vehicle and they should be collecting these taxes already and remitting them to us certainly we ought we also understand that this is a a business that is Likely in its infancy in Arkansas may grow over time right now that would there was not a revenue impact that we could report for purposes of how many of these transactions are on going how many of these rentals are occurring on a peer to peer platform we just don't have that information right now. You bet. Going forward how are you going to have that information how will certainly have an as this as this industry develops or likely be more statistical information that we might be able to rely upon certainly we have the businesses that we have in Arkansas that are engaged in in car rental they're already collecting these taxes and remitting them to us. The the different business model to have a peer to peer platform that's using an app or website unless we actually start getting more actual data reported to us from those companies we would likely be in a better position in a couple years after we have a more mature market in Arkansas for this type of business occurring. Welcome. Richey let your question. So Paul what was the difference in revenue between Toro collected in taxes and individuals running the cars paying the taxes that should should be the same should be should be no different if if an individual is renting their car and they're engaged in the business of running their personal vehicle or they already have a of a number of vehicles that they're they're leasing they already have the obligation to collect and remit sales tax and if the special excise tax to us I can't tell you how many people are out there actually doing that they're supposed to but they're supposed to okay follow up yes Sir okay so this one's for you. So the individual's. It paid by Toro. It are they ten ninety nine. Of I have I don't know the answer to that I think the answer probably is yes so so the documents for the income tracking income must exist okay that's a lie thank you senator question yeah I just kind of follow up on that Paul what you said the taxes already do why are you saying that is that part of the nineteen forty to law that we talk about for years but internet sales tax that's correct I don't know I didn't interrupt I apologize what we're in the situation that we were before we're trying to make sure that or I guess counting on these people that do this to self report. Like we did with the internet sales tax stuff that's correct as as you as you're correct of representatives before we had ACT eight twenty two we D. if they collected a a great deal of of use tax from consumers that were buying items from Webster large websites or they were buying them through the mail those individuals would have an obligation to file a use tax report and pay the tax that's owed and of course during audit this issue would come up as well we audit business we would we would look at their transactions we would see all of these items that are being purchased and if they were taxable in Arkansas we would issue an assessment but certainly if there's an individual that is releasing their car on an online platform and and I'm not I don't wanna be very careful I want to talk about any confidential taxpayer information I'm just talking in general is that if they and the taxes not being collected on that on that platform by the company that individual has an obligation that's that owns the vehicle that's engaging in the rental try and transaction to remit the tax to us so the person owns the car is responsible now not the person who you're renting the car from that on. Well I would say this is that the the market place a solicitor law that we enacted the General Assembly enacted in two thousand nineteen would would it be extend to sales tax so a marketplace facilitator that is providing this platform that is engaging in the the lease of tangible personal property they have an obligation as a market places still tater as long as they have the two hundred transactions a year or one hundred thousand dollars in annual sales they do sit in the shoes of the. The lessor of the vehicle and have an obligation to collect or remit sales tax but that and specific law enacted twenty two it did not specifically address this the special excise tax on rental cars so right now no one is required to self report a rental tax in this case. The self report well the those the special excise tax right D. was not covered by the two thousand nineteen low so if there is a person using a platform to to rent their vehicle then the person that's renting the car that law does not apply to that electronic platform that person that's running the car has the obligation to collect the special excise tax and remitted to the Department. Okay thank you. Mujer questions. The surgeon Lynch. So right now we really don't know who all the would be engaged in running their personal vehicles I mean there's no registration there's no permits required it's just. There is there is a sales tax permit that would be required but I think it's very fair to say it's unknown if if individuals are engaging in this transaction the releasing their car and they're not reaching out to DFA to get registered to collect the tax I think it's fair to say that there may there may be individuals that that are collecting the tax but are renting their cars. You get. Major questions. Thank you Paul thank you Sir right we have the Mr dusty Brighton signed up to speak against a billion room Sir. Just wanna take team is together you. The work thank you. Just because I don't care introduce yourself to the committee and get started get forty percent. Sure thank you Mr chairman members of the committee my name is dusty Brighton I represent Truro and work with them in Mister chairman I was just amount of attorney here in Little Rock with Wright Lindsey and Jennings and here today on behalf of Kerr I was well thank you. Thank you again I represent Tero they are a peer to peer car sharing platform and I'm I am here today to ask that you oppose house bill nineteen oh four appear to peer carsharing platforms are very similar has been mentioned a couple of times already to other peer to peer sharing platforms such as Airbnb the RBO but instead of a home or condo at the platform allows a person to register with the website and subject to the appropriate terms list their vehicle to be shared for price by third party the vehicle owner themselves sets the terms for the agreement including the price of the car share currently there are twenty three thousand our Kansans signed up on the terror a website to either share their vehicle or to share vehicles on the platform specifically over six hundred are Kansas list their vehicle for sharing in Arkansas the average monthly earnings on the rental for those individuals is roughly a hundred dollars a month which is largely used to deferred the usual expenses of life whether it be their own car note school loan payment or to make ends meet in short our Kansans are taking advantage of the peer to peer platform as this type of arrangement as a merge traditional rental car companies have unleashed an effort around the country to pass legislation regulating these platforms based on a need to level the playing field which has been voiced here earlier in reality the legislation is designed to cripple these platforms and that the cost to consumers including our Kansas rather than innovate adjusting compete the rental car industry really wants to legislate this competition out of the picture. That effort came to Arkansas the session already in the form of Senate bill three fifty one which sought to require airport agreements and the vehicle rental tax on our Kansans it use peer to peer platforms that bill did not pass out of Senate insurance and commerce and now is on the deferred part of the agenda now we have house bill nineteen oh four which was just recently introduced which contains the most offensive part of that Senate bill three fifty one which is the imposition of the rental car tax on our Kansans who use peer to peer let me be clear. This will be a tax on our Kansans not thorough or other peer to peer platforms Turow doesn't went to anything it just provides the platform for our cans and to rent their car and house bill nineteen oh four will add another layer of ten tax on that transaction. Perhaps most importantly on this point car owners that utilize peer to peer must pay sales tax on their vehicle when it is purchased rental car companies however have a complete exemption from that tax in Arkansas is no exception in a report published by net choice an organization that follows taxation transfer and commerce companies and Astle and when they analyze the sales tax exemption for the rental car industry in Arkansas the exemption amount is between twenty and thirty million a year to the state due to that exemption if we really want to level the playing field is that's what we're talking about by imposing an excise or rental tax on peer to peer then we should repeal the sales tax exemption for rental car companies ACA two six dash six three dash six oh two to bring this full circle there are three possible layers of taxes for car rental transactions sales tax on the purchase of the car sales tax on the price of the rental in the vehicle rental tax traditional rental car companies are exempt from the first which as I mentioned and it's worth twenty to thirty million dollars per year in Arkansas on the other hand are Kansans who rent their cars on a peer to peer platform must pay the sales tax on the purchase of the vehicle moreover they must pay sales tax on the rental enter will collect and remit that tax house bill nineteen oh four if passed will impose the third layer honor Kansans who utilize peer to peer that is not leveling the playing field it should be noted as of this date no state has imposed the excise tax on peer to peer car sharing platforms despite the numerous and brought efforts of the rental car industry I also want to point out and it was mentioned earlier that Turrell offered a compromise amendment to Senate bill three fifty one that compromise was to treat. Mental car companies and peer to peer exactly the same. What could level plus the playing field more than parity in tax treatment that proposal was rejected in conclusion the peer to peer platforms creative timely and a product of our current times when business people large and small offer a service that is useful and ingenious it should be embraced while such creativity may give rise to competition for traditional business models the good ones adjust their strategy and offering in the market place and continue to thrive what doesn't need to happen is the passage of laws designed to harm that emerging business for the benefit of the big kid on the block I dare say that Turo is not worth thirty five billion dollars the way enterprises. This is especially true here given that peer to peer benefits so many individual our Kansans by helping them find a way to defray some of their living costs we should be encouraging more Kansas to do it especially during trying times like we've had if this bill was really about what's best for the state or economy and consumers we would passing a bill based on the model national conference of insurance legislators in coil language language that has been vetted by legislators and industry around the country that language is nowhere to be found here instead it's a bill that places a tax on average our Kansans that seeks to utilize a peer to peer platform attacks that no other state has chosen to adopt that means this bill isn't about what is best for the rental car industry as opposed to our Kansans it's to their detriment thank you for allowing me to be here today thank you Sir Mr chairman if I may One of the points brought up in the earlier testimony was. What is Mister Bryant has noted there are three layers of taxation to purchase on the vehicle that's going to be rented the sales tax on that the sales tax on the rental and in the vehicle rental tax which is a unique tax for the vehicle rental industry so as I like to think of it in my head there are three layers of taxation it has been said earlier that that third layer the vehicle rental tax already applies to the peer to peer flat platform. I disagree respectfully and for a few reasons number one if that were the case why do we need section three in the bill if it already applies all we need is language addressing the marketplace facilitator obligation so even the proponents of this bill what they might think it applies aren't real sure they want you to make darn clear that it applies that's in the tax secondly with all due respect to the FNA I disagree that the tax does apply and the FNA is like everybody else in this room sometimes right and sometimes wrong and they are appealed and reversed on appeal often times about their interpretation and application of the tax interocean the R. Kansans the use that platform I would be able to reserve the right to have that argument at the appropriate time that the tax does not apply. It didn't thirdly I think we have to ask ourselves if a court were to say if it does apply should should in our cans and who puts the car on the. Your platform have to pay all three layers of taxation when the rental car companies do not they do not pay any sales tax on the purchase so that takes us to the compromise. The compromise language. that was presented twice now once well with regard to Senate bill three fifty one and now for with regard to H. B. nineteen oh four. Is as follows or I'm summarizing if the host pays the sales tax on the purchase and the host is the person that puts a vehicle on the platform if the host pays the sales tax on the purchase they don't have to pay the vehicle rental tax. If the host chooses not to pay the tax on the purchase. Then they will collect and pay the rental tax on the transaction so that's leveling the playing field they get the option and that way people who are renting cars whether it's an individual put in the personal Kerr owner individual is decided to put ten cars on or its enterprise or all going to have equal and fair tax treatment. There was also a comment about the proposal that would not that it would not required to roll to collect and remit the vehicle rental tax that language is in there I don't know if they missed if I didn't see it but the language that I sent it is in the representative Milligan's hands would make clear if this proposal were to be accepted that if a host chose I'm not paying the sales tax on the purchase but I want to pay the sales tax of the vehicle rental tax due will collect and remit. Justice to road already acknowledged on the sales tax on the rental to roll will collect and remit once it hits the fresh out. So to representative Mayberry's point that compromise language was presented in Arizona and Oklahoma and was acceptable to enterprise now there was comments about how that wouldn't work with Arkansas law you'll get to decide what Arkansas law is an eighty Arkansas aside if this works for you as a policy standpoint of so there's a way to put it in the bill and I've already sent it to to the sponsor so I wanted to go ahead and address that those issues because I know there were questions about it at that point we'll take any other questions the committee may have thank you. Many questions. Thank you guys for testimony I'm sorry Chark Rigler. I'm not an attorney nor my CPA. But I just want to get this straight. I'm just in Arkansas I want to rent a car I'm not worried about who pay sales tax on one. So whether I use a rental car company or uber or lift until you hit that threshold. You know I don't pay taxes so doesn't that give you an advantage price wise and then if you do you have any other services that the apple offers or any upgrade services are insurances and that type of thing that that the a consumer could buying or those being taxed. I'll start with that all it does to weigh in does it rain anything it is a platform where it facilitates the rental interrelated market place the seller tater will have the obligation to to a collect and remit once the thresholds hit right the sales tax on that rental is Mr hearing did say would be currently owed by the individual who is reigning tyros obligation kicks in once that threshold to whether people that are renting cars in in I think it's fair to say that Tivity in Arkansas is like to this point whether they're collecting a tax from the rental or and remitting that to the state I don't know that takes us back to the situation while past the market place a facilitator Act two years ago is once it hits a high enough level to roll will have to do it and in the committee to do it and all it does to speak to any other insurance and things like that with regard sure with regard to insurance we absolutely we do offer insurance to those put their car on the platform it will meet the state minimum requirements there are packages that the person can purchased for more insurance coverage but again as I mentioned in my testimony we have worked very hard and closely and negotiated over many hours with in corn oil and others and that there is model legislation for the insurance coverage that we helped that we helped craft and the answer is yes they're covered and those services are offered. Thank you yes Sir repellent. Just so I understand this clearly. Once the threshold here you collect yes the normal sales tax but not the added tax. Correct not the excise renewal tax because we don't feel like that applies when let's say I'm rent my car using your platform you're collecting revenues and then your Senate may some part of that revenue. What that do you pay our. Supplied ten ninety nine on those things are paid out so that information is reported to the government on how much money paid that individual correct we we issued dining that yes Sir okay so just to this is state not yeah I do a lot of business with with companies that pay me for work that I do. I get a ten ninety nine I always pay the taxes because I don't go to jail right so it looks AT ITS anyway that's that's thank you. Mr Rosenberg. I'm sorry. Hello without anybody else notice will speak against a bill for the bill thank you John thank you for the bill. Remoting your clothes for your bill. Like I said like I said in the in the beginning you know we're going back to two thousand nineteen with the on line of business and you all know like I do through this pandemic this internet sales taxes what campus over at so you have heard testimony both ways and and the you know the the excess tax on the rental vehicle. the affinities premises it does apply. It does apply in their situation so of intent taxes inches on purchase pressure not only for rental car companies prefer anyone purchasing you know car for business purposes when you put it in business you step into another Avenue there of with your vehicle or whatever your use itself he we all heard testimony of. Lexical may two thousand nineteen this is this is of businesses online falls in line with that with that the law so well with that I'll be close for the bill. Thank you members you heard bill do we have a motion. I have a motion to pass I'm assuming representative of. You McElroy I guess it's macro dusty to has gone from present macro can speak Mike from please. Motion to pass a motion to pass any debate members. All in favor say aye. Posed. Sorry try certainly bills bills bills and thank you Committee. All right. Members will move down to House Bill eighteen forty one. Okay we'll this is inside what we would this is the bill that we run last Tuesday the building not. To proceed to get out of the committee because it lacked a motion representantes must bring the bill back the bill is asked to the state on agenda come off the agenda could put back on the agenda by mistake but. Anyway long story short we're back so without objection from the Committee. We have anybody object here this bill again. All right thank you Sir go ahead representative Lee Johnson district seven five I'm sorry this is this we're handout amendment co ed tournament the memo was adopted later by to make sure what you mean okay so one from a committee the other day yes right yeah. Members this bill this memo was adopted. Okay I'm sorry go ahead yes representative Lee Johnson district seventy five and have Senator Dismang here's what I can recognize him absolutely. John this Manson's District twenty eight. Committee I appreciate the opportunity comes and talks about this bill again I I don't to be sitting here under different circumstances the circumstances are what they are I want to I want to explain to you the process to which led me to this amendment that we adopted the other day and what would be to come to the table on Tuesday I want to talk to you about line here again today I think you recall from the discussions we had before this is about discussion of how we might spend this special privilege tax medical marijuana as you know currently all of its designated yet the NCI designation which is a laudable expenditure that money my request is that a part of that money be designated for graduate medical education which I also think it's important I think we all agree that these things are important when I came to the committee Tuesday I came to the committee with this amendment at the request of you M. S. this was an amended the UAMS suggested to me UAMS indicated to me that they were okay with this deal at this point with twenty million going to them and the rest going to jam anybody Jimmy many benefits you a mass as well as other people across the state so to be clear when I came to the committee Tuesday it was with the deal in hand that I negotiated with you M. S. as you know I've negotiated several deals a session between a lot of different parties this negotiation for me was no different than any other negotiation of Pat I went to bed that not with the full expectation that we continue to be supportive of this bill went to the day yesterday touching base with them expecting them to be here at the table with me today got reassurances it as late as yesterday afternoon afternoon that that's the way this would proceed at this morning when I woke up I reached out to them again and was told again nothing new any new developments noted on this in the course of the day they've changed their stance on this bill and that's fine I don't have any issue with that people people negotiate deals in a change of mind I mean I've been I've been in situations where I was pretty committed to an idea. In T. signed a deal there's no deal right I mean I get that that's okay no hard feelings on my part I want I want this money be expended well and so but I also think it's important to the committee understand that I would never charge up the hill with the bill that I didn't so I can't support of you and mass is so in this process we sit here today having visited recently with doctor Patterson he can't support this bill at this point I feel like we're still negotiating in good faith in Senator Dismang are working together with doctor Pattison on that front and I'm I give him a chance to speak as well yes I can elaborate and just a little bit so that this all ties back to revenue that actually Andy Davis from the state representative he was the lead sponsor on that we developed the package of items part of it being the medical marijuana tax collection or the The tax at to be able to make sure that we have the funds needed for NCI designation in there was lots of opposition to that bill if you you remember but we were able to to clear those hurdles and then actually put put that institution on the right track with the funding probably two weeks ago I would say roughly representative asked me he said you know look you know would you mind if I try to have a conversation about utilizing so those funds for GM means you're missing something that I'm supportive of also I said that's fine so long as there is in agreement with you a mess he did have an agreement U. S. I I mean I confirm that with doctor Patterson in in in in so in the meantime he asked me then it are you okay with everything and I said that I was I look I I ask you all to make tough decisions on some of my votes right and when I give you a commitment I mean I hope that you would stick to it I will always hold you to it but I mean there's a connection there I hope that I gave him a commitment that if you got an agreement with UAMS that I would be supportive always trying to do I mean I I don't know what to say but what's happened with you know backing out of that commitment and so what I what I've asked of doctor Patterson of him to an inn just where we are in the session of course if we if we don't move this bill quickly win because of timing this bill goes nowhere what we could do is let this advancing Committee today even advancing your for and as we're able to have the time to have the discussion with UAMS about how to fund those GME positions make the adjustments needed on the the Senate side they would also come revenue tax and then have time before we complete the session to to get where we needed to be in kind of an odd situation I thank but there was an agreement I confirm that there was an agreement I I gave my support because of that agreement and and I'm just not going to back out of something that I could. But to do it I would say you know the Iggy and this is this is the job of revenue tax rider the committee to look at look at what is the proper way for our state to spend these kind of dollars there are I want to be clear they're interested parties across the state in seeing GMB funded just like they're interested parties and C. in C. op funded this is not representative Lee Johnson and fighting for his own special project against you and mass I have people that are in support of this idea and or pressing need to continue to go forward with this idea I feel like it's my responsibility as a representative to continue to bring this idea forward Molly regret is that the negotiations seem to have fallen flat and what I'm asking for is the opportunity to get this bill out of committee it with the assurances that I will not run a bill on the floor that doesn't have any Goshen agreement with you And mass to give me time to continue some negotiations with your M. S. what doctor Patterson indicated me this afternoon was that he wanted some more time what I indicated to him was there is no more time I think this is a bill that could benefit you and mass I think they have an interest in seeing this bill moves forward in some fashion or they wouldn't agree to a deal approached me with the deal. And so with the again that's the crux of the issue at this point the session that's what I'm asking for is for this committee to pass this out of committee today let me keep working with you airmass and and give you the assurances that I won't run this bill on the floor unless there's some opportunity for this to be a win win for both you and mass with the NC I and for the state of Arkansas was granted graduate medical education. Thank you Russian Jean. This could be the the one of you and. Senator Dismang. He's a lot younger and I am. He's a lot more sharper than I am with this morning. Did Senator Irvin not have a Amendment. To to increase the funding to forty million on that marijuana money she increase the preparation three ill because we're exceeding what we have thought has this tied to what you're trying to do their well that minutes preparation threshold so there is no direct tie that that is an allowance to spend money and clearly the recently increased the threshold the preparation because it's generating more money than we had thought that it would I want to look at the specifics on that well I mean for coming in that late. I've been the it came in late I I I I mean it is it is issue a MS fighting this now. Is that why they're fighting now because they came in the preparation and they're and last I have no idea I mean again I'm only here because if I tell you one of you I'm going to do something I mean assume that you would expect me to follow through and I'm going to fall through I'm going to ask you all to do things that are difficult I mean and I expect the same thing And returns okay we'll all be friends it doesn't work out but that was not personal position he had an agreement with you M. S. I confirm that that existed I told the Speaker I told you know the budget chaired out till the chair Revenue and Tax know we're good to go there was an agreement and there was and so that's what that's why we're here in fact set out a he's not asking to do anything out of line if there's it would if we can't reach something then we'll just see how it all plays out but at this point the bill would need to move forward because we're we are in the session a to be able to make its way through if it does have an opportunity or something that the the Committee once a day thank you thank you resume wouldn't. Senate Johnson is the I wanna be sure I understood what you said. The. Dr Patterson backed up changed his mind for whatever reason. But it did it did you say did you state that he said that he would look for other funding outside of this money is that what you have that and so we had a brief visit with doctor Patterson this afternoon and if he wants to work on the issue this buys us some time to be able to work on the issue of course we're all going home but we do work over the weekends I'm sure we will be working on this over the weekend maybe there's a way to get to an agreement that works for all size everybody wants to be a win win G. meas important and so is the Cancer Institute obviously but but yes Sir that in general you've summed up. the state before I ask this question I wouldn't I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the Rockefeller Institute out there this is sugar and some people. The my question is are you committing. To us representative how to do it you won't run the bill if another source is not failed is that what we're saying no that's not what I'm saying I'm committee that I won't run a bill that's not supported by you and asks so to be clear any other source of funding they find what we're trying to do with this money is not final it directly to you and ask this money goes into graduate medical care education grant fund was established in the last session that would allow you M. S. other other hospitals around the state to apply for that grant money and establish residency programs now can you know as you M. S. the leader in the state in graduate medical education do they have the the most likely chance to stand to benefit that Grammy they absolutely do one of the things about this money that I lied to just like an C. I. benefits the whole state the way I have this set up to the graduate medical education fund any of the med schools in the state in the hospitals in the kids state any any cities elder read a recently partnered with the hospital to the front money for graduate medical medical education would have be able to apply for this money in get some grants from that now you know it it may not come from another revenue source this may be the only revenue source but what I'm committing to is not running a bill that isn't supported by you and mass with regard to this revenue source. The You know we're we're attempting to get it to the National Institute level certification within it which is which would be a tremendous attribute for you a M. S. out there. With a school take. The bill money of somewhere seventy eighty million dollars to be able to do that. And Senator Dismang I realize this is bringing in more revenue but and maybe with you all can answer it but if it is bringing in more revenue with the expedite the the completion of the certification process and then at that time look at taking this money and putting it forth I wish I could favor something like that but I don't want to do anything that is a detriment to the Institute out there and if we can if we can do it sooner with the increased income that were realizing above what we thought would then the the the way to approach it. If I if I can make and I don't know you're you're maybe and directed this questions Senator Dismang that right and I mean I respond yeah I mean we we thought we were going to drink generate a million dollars a year and there are other revenue sources that we created Andy Davis representative Davis not to be able to get there and again with lots of opposition from some folks there are most in favor of this today so uh and so clearly I support in CI and mean and and clearly I wanted to succeed again I don't understand exactly what happened but Dr Patterson made a commitment he said he was going to do something he said he any great actually is the one that made the proposal. The representative. And so there's something more to that designation. Again I don't know all the ins and outs that one of the things that was mentioned is that some of the graduate medical education money could work towards GM may I talk to bear about that today there are a lot of nuances to NCI designation that I'm not that I'm not privy to and and again for you M. S. to come to the table and say this is something they were advocating for I have reason to believe that they may come back to the table with a different compromised version that they want to move forward with and I'm trying to give them that opportunity they're good stewards of their money their own there are people just like there are people in this room in this community to passionately want all of this money to get it in C. I. right now there are also people in this community who want some money to go towards GM me in in in in a relatively urgent urgent way because we see that is an urgent need just so I can see I designations important the longer we kick the can down the road with regard to ramping up our graduate medical education the further further behind we get with regard to position workforce development so it to me I think there's a way to simultaneously strive towards both of these goals I've been given indication from you and ask that there may be a way to to have this money count towards the D. NCI designation which would be when we and is on a again all I'm asking for this point it's time to continue to work on this negotiation which I thought I was doing good faith that to this point and at any given you this sense as you will see me the well rounded a bill and less it's signed off on by your M. S. and I make sure everybody gets that education. Yes Sir. So really the UK so you have led a U. A. M. S. as in a win win position on the potentially yes and I'm trying to keep this ball moving forward you know what why they why we had a deal didn't have to deal this is I'm neither here there again I I hold no hard feelings people make deals and back out of bills and other slots moving parts it's late in the session like going on I think it's important to continue to give that opportunity to continue those negotiations because this does have an opportunity potentially be win win for a lot of people in there are again people people besides me or supportive of this thought and idea that this is an important way to spend some of this money at this particular time in our state. Did we not Have a witnesses testified that there were federal monies that were available under the new rescue active possibly could be used yeah I I'm I'm trying to S. I mean we did it and I've looked at what I believe to be the federal dollars that may be coming down the way I look at interpret does I don't see those is being block grant money that's gonna be coming in any rapid fashion for residency start up programs I do think it's money this can be used for augmentation expansion current work force that I that the start up process for these residency programs I don't believe this can be settlement for that I could be wrong but even if it is I think the timing of it is is important and if I'm wrong I'm happy to get the federal money and work towards that one for this will. Yeah what what would you would you probably won't but would you speculate as to what a doctor Patterson backed up I mean I I mean I I think it again and I'm not trying to be I don't mean to be going back to pass in the best hope you're well I realize that he made he made the decision I mean I would hope the with the then here because that's what the committee had been told serving to share and daughter with doctor passions very busy man full schedule and I don't fault him an offer here but I just wanted to make sure that this committee news. With certainty that I was moving forward in good faith as far as you know why so meditation of that I have I have no idea produce change within a system I don't I don't have any problem with him change his mind I just a mask for more time so that we can continue to communicate and and if something moves forward great if it doesn't then we are back off I thank both of you it's and rubble and we need there's no doubt that. But you know we made a commitment to this other and if something happens you know we need to we may need to fall back but but I appreciate both of you I want you to know that thank you Mr chairman thank you and to your point representive Wooten I mean it back in the beginning this session and I'm I sponsor the bill to extend the Sunday you know some states that are a sunset date out skin lightening get tired you know earlier in this section and there was some comments back we understand this is generating much more than the eight million that we thought it was going to generate there's a ten million dollar commitment again there's some other components that get you to the tent clearly we're well above that in my response was exactly your response which is maybe we can get there faster that's a good thing about supported you M. S. is the date that I came here and I hope that I mean I feel like I'm an advocate for you a M. S. and will continue to be an act that advocate for UAMS in this the incidents designation again I'm here because for whatever reason there was a feeling that this would work it was a commitment made. I made a commitment based on someone else's commitment I'll follow through even if someone else doesn't that's fine but with that in any given the yeah I don't I'm. Number I'm I know as long down ready to close where we already for me because I have to take any more questions. Representative of the Lynch. So the the original commitment was eight to ten million dollars a year. For the last marijuana now we're we're generating twenty million this this morning money get us there faster is that the reason why there. Okay so there's a lot of different financing office if you have a twenty million dollar cash flow into bond issue this huge so this is. So anyway if it's just money. Then then there's other options here and this GMA program I'll tell you my my daughter is aye aye aye. Neonatologist she let the residency program not thank god she was able to stay in the state of Arkansas but she almost couldn't and then fellowship you almost did manage to stay in Arkansas and so I've you know I'm all for starting this just give me a program if there's anyway we can do we need to do it all at the same time we we made our obligation to the other program. The next review million four. Resilient. Fortner. Not reporter apologizing about ten things going on represent Fortner. Up. Two things one one a question. You And then the statement also what I said. Last time I believe it was the intention and the will. Of this body. That all of the money from the marijuana tax. Go to the cancers. It is our good fortune that it has exceeded the ten million dollars okay. I believe that I believe that with all my heart every other people might not but I believe it was our intention to give it all. And the other thing. Probably. I'm disappointed by this statement and and I would like to hear it from their lips that they can find other funding because if they think it's coming out of this legislature. Or out of the budget. It's not. And I don't if if it was there and there are other funds. They should have gotten a. Do you agree. I agree representative for the. That's that's all I got. Jackie did appear Joe let any other questions. Representative fight you're recognized. Thank you Mr a representative Johnson do you expect to get a written agreement with a very I I promise the next time I will okay in in it is is this amendment have been engrossed yet it has not been engrossed as adopted the would be the soonest that this bill could be heard on the floor. That's my understanding yes okay thank you thank you Mr. Any other questions members. The representative Garner. Please use your microphone. I'm sorry we were talking about something else but so would you be willing to go back to you a mess without the NC at without the marijuana money money I mean they are willing to help find the funding for the program are amended to answer your question with a question represent Garner you ever know me not to be willing to negotiate with people. So I salute I would absolutely want set out and engage with you a message many conversations about DM me or or the marijuana tax or anything you know if I thought this together session was that I would be sitting here the table asking let me move this forward but what I'm asking is if the committee if it was the will of the committee for you to go back to talk to UAMS about GME funding without using this marijuana money would you be willing to still work on that I mean sure because you have made the GME funding in fairness doesn't really at this point in time benefit UAMS the GME funding in a service entire state of Arkansas it does yeah it could for everyone but it's not going to help you A. M. S. seventy well I would I would say that Jimmy funding would absolutely help you and masses was the entire state of Arkansas. It helps representing Garner would you like to follow up I would like to thank you It's for it's for new. The GME funding that you're talking about this for new programs right now it's also for expanding current programs such within programs and cap if yeah I know I have a soft there's not that right now there's a cat yeah I know it's for it so the only way to expand programs where there is a cap is with private money that happens all the time UAMS said the program's existence at a private funding residency slots so they go from six residents to eight to ten to twelve track they've done that over the years for ever the part of the grant program would be if you M. S. wanted ad for neurosurgery residents thank you can apply for a grant that for nurse addresses beyond the cap that's part of the grant process that's one of the things that I've added right within yeah so would absolutely they would absolutely have the opportunity to apply for grants for either new start ups if they want to collect the said they wanted to start a forensic pathology fellowship which is something much needed in the state of Arkansas they can absolutely apply for money to start of the forensic pathology scholarship to this fund. Kerr there any other questions members. Is there anyone in the audience up I believe there's someone signed up to speak against. Martha hill. The judge set by. What the hell private citizen. You're not on behalf of anyone I said on the UAMS and advisory board for the Rockefeller Center and I would ask the committee to please follow representive Mayberry's wonderful suggestion and put this an interim study and let's have representative Johnson. Dr beer doctor Patterson and everyone sit down and discuss this there is federal money coming I found to sources of federal money one in the appropriations bill that was passed in December twenty twenty and in the new our bill that was passed in March of this year there are two sources of federal funding with eight hundred eighty million dollars to be spent overall why representative Johnson continues to be insistent on this just slays me I've worked with him he is my for Hammond I don't like being here ever opposing my friend who is a state representative and he has to bring Senator Dismang into it today I ask the committee to please do the right thing and make these parties negotiate and not hang a bill over their head and with that I'm happy to answer any questions members anyone have any questions. Okay single up. Representative what this means your senator to represent the he is in a and you know that this is her committee relative to that and and. And Johnson and his family go back forty years but. I must say Johnson forty but he may be but I will say that I will will have liver I will say that he is my son played only only one of the few teams it may be that BPA so this go on from that would what a joke between representative may. We'll. So if you're you're saying that federal money is coming in the red is it a correct correct a citation the to the fact that we're collecting more money that it will perhaps expedite the Cancer Institute certification if you A. M. S. actually I can't answer that question I will tell you that the money is used in a plethora of ways and I know that doctor beer has a certain amount of money committed in this this act the state fiscal are annual year and represent Garner I don't recall it anyway and I will tell you and that this committee was not told this on Tuesday that Oklahoma spent forty million dollars for. For ten years for a total of four hundred million dollars to get in see I. Thank you thank you measure the questions. Thank you. Do we have anybody else speak against the bill for the bill. If you Josh your clothes your bill Sir yes I need to be clear you know we are all friends I mean the good news is what we'll find over years is to to get candy bars right to get ways to spend money what I'll say is if it's going to take twenty million dollars to get since he died this nation at the current rate even if we keep extending the sales tax I mean the special privilege marijuana tax it's going to take roughly seven or eight years to get to that dollar amount for NCI designation at at thirty million a year. So so I'm just saying that if we if we if if we don't find funding. For GMT in the next ten years and we don't do a significant commitment financially to improving graduate medical education the state of Arkansas in the next ten years while we wait for NCI designation we're going to continue to fall further and further and further behind workforce development I hope I hope that missile is right in that we have. Federal dollars rolling in let's all remember this moment I have an account sitting there empty ready to collect funds it was established two years ago. DO not much was an account today zero so so I hope that will ride I hope that the money is going to fall from the sky into this account and then it will in that it will improve what we're gonna do with with graduate medical education but I'm not convinced that's the case and I think the need is immediate enough that we need to commit some money to that process now now again I thank you a mess potentially agrees with me or they would have agreed to a deal a couple of days ago you know there there are some people there that feel like this is also an import expenditure of money and I want to be clear again on what I'm asking for all all I'm asking for is the opportunity to continue to work in good faith with UAMS as we move forward over the next few days it costs nothing to this committee to allow me to do that it creates a situation where there's a potential win win for you M. S. and and for graduate medical education the state of Arkansas and for the schools and hospitals in the state that are looking for funding for that process three you know. I will of course your by by the will of committee and be happy with whatever but shall get but I I want you to understand that I'm truly trying to negotiate in good faith here and and if this doesn't work out sure I'll do it in our study I'll continue to work for the Jimmy finding that there is a there's a final window here we do have a real opportunity to do something good for the state with regard to GM me and I would like to see this negotiations continue over the next few days to see if this is something we can move forward with the session thank you Sir measure testimony to have a motion. The most representative body. Motion to pass the motion to pass any debate members. As a as amended. Any but reserve member look like you will say something now. Thank you I I guess I don't know if I want to say I was actually considering just making a motion to just put this into interim study. Well that's going to be a B. the bill's sponsors prior to that so we have to have a motion to pass. Our end but member as amended we have any invite. All in favor say aye opposed. Sorry Sir you bills bill. Thank you Committee thank you. All right members we have represent the C. remove. Back up the agenda house bill seventeen nineteen represent Lundstrum does have. An amendment to the bill staff will pass out so everybody be aware that sports happen on this bill is. it got put on the agenda at less than eighteen hours so we're operating within a two hour limitation so without objection. About objects the more pass at the moment M. personalized gun runner Bill. So no objection represent Love Lundstrum you're good to go. Give us a second amendment passed out now. And also this members going to change the dynamics of the I miss are the fiscal impact and I apologize I guess we don't care since we just an amendment you don't care because you want expire upon this from DFA I'm not sure she needs as provided right was saying that we need clarification if I don't think the sponsor needs any help all the help I can get. All right represent Lundstrum this argument please. Colleague's the Amendment is to extend out the pilot program and not to start the actual revenue impact of the program until twenty twenty two this will give us time to set up the pilot program is you all remember this is the program to help inmates find jobs and give businesses a tax credit of three thousand dollars the first year which would not impact the budget until twenty twenty three the inmate has to actually or the They actually have to hold the job one year before the business gets the tax credit and then the second year would be two thousand and the third year would be one thousand and I want to read you the probably the most important statistic that I've been researching this for quite some time the recidivism rate in Arkansas in the first three years is fifty percent fifty point five three percent. So any time we help somebody get a job and hold a job in three years. That's a huge deal and if you'll just take a moment to think about this we house our inmates at thirty thousand dollars a year. So this program and also we're shrinking this program down for only a thousand folks to participate in this program I think it's important as a pilot program we get it right first we need to walk before we run I don't want to spend the state's money. And mess it up so with that I'll take questions and left all make any comments Paul if you don't care talk about fiscal impact twenty twenty two because here's what took place members the representative did want to run a bill with fiscal impact I was pushing back pretty hard thank lot of members didn't know that so the school district up and down vote on this bill and on Amendment that the personalized become just want to go with this amendment try to get twenty twenty two revenue neutral No of the electors lot better chance to get out of committee because we're going to provide better zero chance get out of committee but president working on. So Paul talk to the fiscal impact and twenty twenty two okay I thank you chairman a public hearing with D. F. A. when we issued the revenue impact for house bill seventeen nineteen the bill as originally filed with effective for tax years beginning January one twenty twenty one and following this amendment would change the tax year to two thousand twenty two and following when we issued the fiscal for the original builder revenue impact originally was a six point six million dollar revenue impact for FY twenty two to general revenue of course we will issue a another fiscal impact statement based upon this particular amendment but we are confident that two things would would occur with this amendment is that the revenue impact would reduce from the six point six million due to our estimation that there would be approximately twenty two hundred offenders that would be a bell eligible to possibly Rick result in a tax credit for the tax payer this bring it down to one thousand would bring the revenue impact down likely to the three million dollar range for the for a first year secondly hold I thought Paul second we're talking twenty two or twenty three just got to get to their yes Sir and then also that since the revenue that the tax year now this is going to be effective for would go to FY twenty three would be the first year that we would see a fiscal impact to general general revenue under this program members reason why that's important I'm not advocating for the Ripper representations Bill per the reason why that's important is because the Senate and house we've already capped out of twenty five million so had had ripped representative one pathetic at that inner retinal bill there's no way that it was going to run so but she's worked with us to get a revenue neutral twenty twenty two so that's the reason why remains cool if the committee will select a bill out that this committee's choice on this one thought and I'm not advocating for against your minute but I will put that in there. Are you close remember I am because my my amendment and less and colleagues have questions okay any questions regionalen. Regarding your current president. After their initial release one personages that now it is fifty point three five three percent so a resemblance to thank you escalate often the bill and and going to do the moment we'll get to the bill all right thank you Sir. This is this is a member's amendment a member's bill we have a motion for the adoption of amendment the most representative these any debate all in favor say aye. Posed okay now regional instability question Sir so the the way I did math that's that's fifty million dollars a year because we but those people that in jail yes Sir that is correct and this this pros on cost is three million yes Sir. Okay that's it that's it and to spend the first year with one thousand cap defenders would be approximately three point three million I'm sorry three three million based upon a about that that the three thousand dollar tax credit credit available for one thousand eligible vendors. Richelieu. Thank you Mr chairman Mr during the that's based on a thousand though if we just you know it's going to be less if there's only eight hundred the first year. That is correct in order to get to three million you would have to have a full thousand offenders that actually are successful in the program that qualify for the credit to be issued so if there are less offenders the qualifying and for the taxpayer you're going have a lot of revenue impact that's less than that three million. Follows yes Sir this representative Lundstrum it is not are the is there any limitation our specifications on what type of jobs we will they be able to work wherever they can if it's the convenience store or restaurant or whatever because I know all those are struggling today yes Sir for it so it because they they can be employed anywhere yes Sir that is correct and also remember that do you have an eight does static scoring and not dynamic storing so we don't know what how much money this is going to put back into the community they're going to be renting homes paying child support buying groceries so this is hopefully going to not only bring in money but also. Well I think the difference just from the states to import goes back to represent the religious questions seventy thousand verses what we're doing here three thousand correct and also in our with our of thousand dollars yes okay three three thousand that's right thank you Mr chairman thank you all region fight your question Sir I do. What these people being in the work release program. It depends on how we set up the pilot program. That that's the other part we're gonna have to take some time to actually set this up and work with them as they come out of prison and also what the skill sets going to be. For example one of the prison system set of furniture building programme we may want to link them up with lazy boy so it it really in Northwest Arkansas right now we have an app with sixty two thousand jobs open I'd love to see some of those folks be able to apply for those jobs follow up measure his or. Okay okay if it is work release and I go to work before they get out of time start when they go to work Pollard work release I have to work that out I don't know Sir okay thank you thank you Mr you're welcome motion if you get a question Sir yes Sir thank you thank you I think you touched on this on your initial presentation whatever it was a week or so ago what what qualifies as a former inmate means someone that's twenty years out of prison or one month out of prison how that works they have to have served in the state penitentiary it can't be somebody that you that's been in the local jail that's been a cousin who's just been in the drunk tank on Friday night they have to have actually served in the state penitentiary. Sturch so they could serve state pay twenty years ago and still qualify for this no Sir okay Sir and I don't have the bill in front of me but we actually did set a little bit of a qualification on that but that's going to be part of setting up the pilot program it's they're gonna have to have served time in the penal system. That can't be someone from twenty years ago and now it if there is a qualification I apologize I don't have that front of me. Well being president I mean I I think because I think your intent is for this to be fairly recent yes for inmates yes that is correct for thirty years but you're saying you took care of that bill I don't have in front of me and I don't want to ever. If they didn't take care of it in the bill would you yes okay very much so and then will it always be only a thousand or is that just kind of while the pilot program that's what's the program I don't want to get over my skis they have the program get over my skis okay. All right well yep that's it thank you. Thank you Sir. More general questions. Personally I'm doing. Of engineering the three million is that own going even after twenty three twenty four how certain are you on that because my concern is we're going to come in here in the fall which will be in the new fiscal year twenty twenty two. And I think we've made the commitment to the governor on some income tax cuts so is this gonna be three million. A twenty twenty four twenty twenty five orders it escalate. Well and as the bill was originally filed and when we were generating our fiscal impact statement we assumed well that they were the new entrance to the program you have individuals that were leaving custody of the department of correction that would be able to go into this program so that that and as a state and as individual state in the program the tax credit would be reduced from three thousand to two thousand one thousand but thought there would be new people coming in as well that would be getting the three thousand two thousand and one thousand but now with it being capped at one thousand participants there may be seven hundred and fifty offenders they're in there for the first year and then they might add another few hundred the next year we're going to have to re work but certainly if they're only a thousand offenders that are available to be in the program it appears as though that top amount of credits that could be issued in a year would be the three million because at some point you might have half of them getting that through half of them five hundred getting the three thousand credit but then you might have a few other people that are in the program that are getting the two thousand credit and then the one thousand credit but we do just my initial thoughts would be that that the top amount for the if if it is one thousand offenders that are allowed in the program at any given time and the Max credit is three thousand per offender the most it could be would be three million dollars per year but that would. of course the cost would carry over from year to year as defender stay in the program and credits are earned by the taxpayer so you're feeling pretty confident that the three million is a solid number. I would be happy to speak with my accounts first. Income tax I don't want to speak for the unit that will be put on the record. I feel it with it with it being capped at a thousand offenders being able to be in the program at any given point and the most credit that could be allowed to would be three million I'm sorry three thousand per offender it it appears as though it would be three million a year that this program would would be the Max amount of credits that could be issued every year thank you thank you Mr welcome. Russian agree your question Sir. Thank you chairman if they really more of a comment somebody on the local Israelis at the backside of it okay do you agree okay go ahead. Okay yeah yeah just make sure it's kind of semi question okay all right one one I work on a drug and alcohol so I employee a lot of these people and it's been very rewarding for me to see them come from a very low place and be able to come up adoptive citizen a I've seen about houses in fact I've got one that just came to me this purchasing a business moving forward so my question would be that you know I think it greatly decrease the recidivism do you have any any facts or figures on how would decreases resented well of the recidivism rate is fifty percent fifty point three eight five three percent in the first three years if and this is a three year program if we can get them and keep a job. That's the golden time frame but again we can't get over our skis this is a pilot program I would love to be able to come back and say we are bursting at the seams we have a waiting list it's been incredibly successful and look at how many people have jobs in the amount of income and success breeds more success. And let's was rock and roll but let's not get over our skis and let's prove it up first. With that I would appreciate a good vote Richmond is you got a question and I'm representatives to answer questions it is in the bill on page two it listed out but I will be glad to define it more if you would like that no that was my question if I read that right represent McNair I think showed it to me in person within our talking over the table about it it says released from his or her first term of incarcerated I'm presuming that means supposed incarceration for a felony offense within twelve months before the date on which the start he or she starts yes Sir okay thank. You know questions members. All right anybody I speak against a bill for the bill your clothes for your bill ma'am colleagues I would appreciate a good vote you make a motion for your own bill yes I would like to make a motion to pass you have a motion to as amended as I struggle with that part yes Sir we have a motion to do pass as amended any debate all in favor say aye. Posed. Regulations you pastor bill thank you colleagues welcome. All right well this is written off now trustee side kick come up we're going to House Bill we've right back of the agenda The objection to. Nineteen twelve. What can I do this real quick members okay here here's what we have on house bill fifteen forty three percent Vaught she's not a room assesses take care of this for so she she's good with amendment this going to be a concurrent on the Senate amendment Is there any objection for us doing this taking care of her amendment concurrency of the Senate can I have a motion somebody concur a motion from represent McElroy for the concurrence of the Senate amendment any debate members all in favor say aye. Imposed. Thank you. Twenty one. Well. Chairman Jett that identify yourself and your guests today recognized to present your bill thank you Mr chairman Joe Jett state representative. Thank you Mr chairman was the committee Paul Goehring DFA. Okay members this is the governor's highway plan and first of all I'm going to make this state if you don't care Mr chairman that's that I support Richmond Payton's car tax plan Thank you Mexico sponsoring that bill the problem the problem what we have here now is this going to be held it is held up in the Senate right now don't know if we're gonna get it out of the Senate so this is a fall back I think probably I think there's probably like eighty five bill sponsors on bills so the body is spoken were they want to do this for the people of Arkansas but will winding down the time period of I mean thank chairman Jean said while ago in some meeting I was at least one with are saying the table probably next Wednesday unless certain all speak retirement Jean but this kind of the goal here right now so we put our state on the table next Wednesday obviously we're running out of time so if the Senate does anything kind of holes up president pays any at all we could actually gavel out without a car tax plan for the people of Arkansas so what this bill is about the government this is this is the governor's plan. I was less up to the this committee let it out but this is what I see this as a fall back from what to represent Payton has said I am a response from Richmond Payton's a bill but this is a fallback that that in case it does get tied up and forced you know what we on a last session we rolled out without the car tax bill coming out because of this very same issue. So what this does on a government plan this is between four thousand to ten thousand dollars this puts a three point five percent Price on that the first year FY twenty two sixty six million five hundred dollars in going forward after that is thirteen million one hundred dollars with that Mr and I will entertain questions. Members do you have any questions. I have one at chairman at you said the thirty five or three point five percent from seventy five hundred to ten no Sir from I'm sorry about that said that I misspoke is four thousand dollars ten thousand dollars. Four thousand to ten is three point five. Secretary yes okay thank you I misunderstood will in in in a member break down any further is B. two point eight seven five four the state rate and you have a point six two five for sales and use taxes as by a minute seventy five and by Amendment ninety one constitution. Survation and highways. So if you can process this kind breakdown March thank you you bet any other questions members. Representatives this is this is really for Paul I think point compared to the other used car tax but we're talking about how does this one differ in the way that it treats New and used trailers. The representatives this bill would also provide that the sale of a use trailer would be subject to the reduced three and a half percent rate between four thousand and ten thousand a new trailer would be subject to the full six and a half percent rate just like a new motor vehicle with but of course there aren't too many new motor vehicles that you can get maybe motorcycle do we currently tax new trailers at that were same rate yes okay thank you. Okay any other questions members. Signal is there anyone in the eyes speak against the bill. For the bill. All you're recognized thank you Mr chairman did they did spouse I'm speak for this bill this is the governor's plan there are a couple of advantages that we think are very important in this particular legislation and it currently we do have a cliff between a person that pays three thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars for a car in a person pays four thousand dollars for a car there is that a cliff of a few hundred dollars including the the the the local sales taxes that could be affected this bill does still have a cliff so when you progress up to a car that's going to be close to ten thousand dollars once you get up to a car that's over ten thousand dollars they're still going to be a click here but this is a a minimize cliff by having the sales tax rate for them on the state side of three and a half percent but also having the local sales taxes that are going to be collected on all of these cars are gonna have a lowered state rate. Also what's important about this bill that we think is is is helpful is that the cities and counties are not going to be affected by this bill this is only for the state portion of the sales tax rate we're bringing down the state sales tax rate on on the wall vehicles affected from six point five percent down to three and a half percent but the locals will have no revenue impact. Happy will be happy to answer any questions. Members. I have a question will the cliff still not be there at three thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars it'll just be less that cliff will still be there at its current rate so we're not so we're not eliminating class there's not there's no elimination of that particular cliff between the at at four thousand level there will also be a cliff at the ten thousand level but it with the three and a half percent rate being collected between four thousand ten thousand that cliff will be smaller than it would be if there were there was a zero percent rate at that at that at that threshold all right thank you the I. see any other hands. Seeing none are you represent. The Russians Lundstrum would you have a question. Okay seeing no questions are you ready to close as or anybody thirty ask for anybody wants to speak against yeah I did never mind are you ready to close I'm close. Okay we're all closed long day it is getting late what's your pleasure committee. Okay we have a do pass all in favor of. Sure we can have discussions you are represented Mayberry discuss on. Thank you I guess I just ate we've already passed to use car sales tax bill. And we all agreed to it and I just think we need to stand firm and it means that it's less likely for John Payton said bill to pass over there if we pass this one. And I was that's the problem when we did not agree the Senate not agreement we agree the to Senate not agreed last session with this gives them and help them but but last session proved that they can close up and go home and hard working people Arkansas does not get this man to press it has been said that that they closed up last session we all went home and went come back or working on the same bill all over again Senate gives me we. I'll speak for my good friend represent Lane Jean up here but we've been in meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting in this topic right here is driven. The majority of the meeting that we start off the meetings with this topic and the Senate has gave us every indication every indication from day one that are not going to pass John Payton is represent Pitsch Carville the spot would happen again and they said they tell us that are good to close up and go home and not do it again. Good question if you don't mind can you tell me why like I hear that they're against it but tell me why would you ask me to get in the head of some senators now. And I am not the first well first of all I need first of all I'm not going to Advocate for senators I mean that's not I mean I I'm signed on the done thing represent page bill but part of the problem is is the clips part of the problem is the price tags of the prostate is different And I don't know Richmond genuine that something to that you're recognized little bit always meetings together of. Let me just make a statement first of. The representative Jett. Is not qualified to get into Senator say it. I'm not I'm not what are you running are you that. and he's a no. I'm for John Payton bill. But but you know. the bad thing about it was last session we went home with nothing we went on with that that and representative Jett is right we have been in negotiation four we've been here since the second Monday of January that's been a topic if not day every other day try to get the Senate to go along. I don't know why they don't like it is you know in the big scheme of things it's not a lot more money I have no idea just visit was Senator Dismang while ago would ask him to please help because he's on the Revenue tacked on there. But you know I look at this is we can go home like we did last time and blow it out of the house. Or we can have a backup plan that to help the people of Arkansas and then bottom line we when we're set here it's what are we doing for the people of Arkansas and I'm just kind of gas I don't care a John pays my friend I'd help him get that bill and work for it but the bottom line we leave here with no. A reduction in the sales tax on used cars we have failed the working people of the State of Arkansas. And that's where I look at it in and I and I've I've got another meeting with the US Senator sample Mar to plead with him and that will be the first meeting map we've had several meetings with them so I can't tell you why the Senate to do what it does we're not responsible for the Senate we're responsible for the house of representatives and we're responsible for the people of Arkansas so that that's that's the way I look at it I wish John can get his out first I really do because I've I've supported both both years I supported John strong on this but we do have a backup plan or goal road bass and we're gonna leave this session and the working people of Arkansas are not gonna have any more relief on the sale of used cars and and that's that's that's my discussion on it and I'm I'm going to support this and I have supported John's to thank you I like to add one more thing to that Mister chairman also members you know we. It was pressure on us me as chairman this committee to run with this bill several weeks ago. The reason why we didn't know this bill is give it give every opportunity to represent Payton to get out ahead to give him a head start on this I mean they were we we met on our say last week I guess I can remember the days days to run together gun rashes to run this thing last week the Senate walking out RSA meeting the governor's mansion for that one morning Senate asked me to run this thing last week or two which I can remember now but we held off in this in one of the resolver whole not today is because RSA will probably laid on the table middle next week this thing is coming down to the end. It was intentionally waited to the very last possible day that we could actually run this and have time to still get this through the Senate to give John Payton every opportunity to get this bill out of the Senate. So that's what the audience representative Lundstrum but I see your hand yes Sir I'm two questions one I appreciate representative Jett for waiting and giving representative Payton the time because the only bettered bill and pay this bill was my bill for ten thousand dollars just saying because at and I signed on to pay its bills well I have do have a question representative Jane how much is in surplus right now. You're recognized. You know what our current surplus for what will be in surplus after June thirtieth before right now we're or our current surpluses two hundred nine two hundred eleven million and change and change and. We'll we're we're thinking there will be an additional minimum of five hundred to five hundred fifty million. They could be in surplus at the end of this fiscal year which is June thirtieth okay now I will say this we have most of that. Earmarked for long term reserve. we want to build up the long term reserve because we feel after twenty twenty three tough times are coming for the state of Arkansas and we need to reserve built up to protect a lot of the programs that are very dear to all of us so the. Don't take a look to the surplus in fact will this is all for tax cuts we're gonna have some tax cuts now twenty five million. and then we're gonna have some more tax cuts in the fall but the main thing we want to do is is to build our surplus up long term of for what I think after twenty twenty three could be some very lean years with deflation and inflation and and the people so used to sit at home with pandemic which is not their fault but they give me to give a lot of money and I'm lobbyist to the restaurants there that it is a struggle to get people back to work right yes so don't just thank all of the surplus is sitting there protected Nassar I'm not that's not where I'm going with this I do think we can do both so I think we can do something with the used car tax I think that's something I think if we go home without it like what you said I agree correct I think there's are there I know there's already a group that's working on a ballot initiative they're they're gonna they're sharpening their pitchforks right now they were mad last time I think they're gonna be even matter this time if we don't come home with something that that give some relief for used cars I think we can do both I I think you're right we need to take care of long term reserve I think we need to take care tax cuts at the same time because government will always take as much money as you can so we better come home with something and and do the tax cut so freesheet what representative just doing but I gotta tell you. I wouldn't want to come home empty handed. Represent McElroy. I think we need to do this we need to ensure the people's catalog call we had a veterinarian it also had a taxidermy. Thing is his job any other guarantees it either way you get to delve back. And I think that's what we need to do with the people we do not need to leave here with the working people without a without some kind of tax cut for the vehicle you know I'm on reasonable well I I agree okay president will. Thank you Mr chairman I agree. Of all the taxation and all the programs and talks of my constituency this is the one they talk about the miles. These cars already been taxed will then we went back text of again I never did understand that to start with but I agree with representative genes and and and representative Jett I'm telling you reckoning day is coming all this rescue money I'm telling you we're going the nation and the state we're going to pay a price for I mean we we needed it I will I will question their but it would you know it's not going to be here in two years and what's going to happen then we don't know for sure. So we just need to we need we need to go what we know we're operating under threat from down there and I don't like that anymore than you do at all the like representative of my school I will go home have a to opportunities here to see what happens and I'm on Payton's bill and I'm in favor of it but you know when they tell you they're not going to do something what else well the choice to you have but to put the onus on them they got to do something if we said this when they're on their thank you Mr chairman I I liked it also that the every step of the way that we've told representative Payton what we're doing I mean he's he's been he's not gonna let the nose he's been told exactly when we're at we're going to do this so nothing's been or not do anything nefarious to him or not do anything under handed deal he knew that was given every opportunity to get this bill at first he knew that was going to run I told last week that we're gonna run this bill today so we're not doing them John pays all of our friends so we're not doing anything to release been above board with corruption paid. All right as long as the I'm sitting here and got the microphone I'll say something that we all know. They are better at playing the game down there we are and if we don't want this to continue forever. We're gonna have to do something to change that there's a hundred of us in thirty five of them and every year they end up it appears get in their way. Okay and I know that's going out in the web that was representative Jack Fortner. And he don't care a lot I'm unleaded you mean you're not confuse each other yeah. Okay the representative Lundstrum up Lanny represented by your consideration. Okay. All right that'll do it. We. Well the man up here that knows what he's doing said we already have a motion for do pass and we need. Okay all right do pass anymore discussion. Okay all in favor opposed no. All right it bills passed thank you I believe you've got to Senate bill five forty three you're going to do for yes yes. I'm gonna have a not terrible Julie come apparently. Today no anal lover here buddy. Mr will your. Mr miglior. Mr chairman. Yes you're good go ahead I'm sorry I was listening to what they're trying to tell me up here I know some feel like Joe Jett. That. All right members the Senate bills five forty three this comes down from the Senate senator Dave Wallace this has to do with the steel manufacturing this is sort of like on the lines of the bill that got passed out earlier on for a Russian Jeff Wardlaw not on the pill mill Bill the there was a tax credit before basically this is core revenue neutral it's the project that has has to have a two hundred million dollars or more the investment is has created a hundred fifty jobs new jobs in the average is seventy five thousand. Dollars job so when we just got to go back to my present folks and ADC's got to prove it so if you dynamic score this this would be a cost benefit to the state in outlook to Mr Mullinax at the. Okay I just say I need to be here at six o'clock more often the only funny. Enjoy the laughs okay so yes everything representative Jett said is perfect and I'll just say that the recycling tax credits have been a fabulous tool for economic development in the state Arkansas is now home in large part to to the credit that these tax credits now home to one of the largest steel producing counties in the nation and job growth in the steel industry has increased in Arkansas by about thirty nine percent over the last ten years so if. Companies take advantage of this opportunity it will mean more jobs for Arkansas. And the key provision I think you mentioned is that this these projects won't happen unless there's a positive cost benefit analysis so it'll be a positive fiscal impact. Okay members do you have any questions. Is there anybody in the audience to speak against the bill. Are you Nathan Smith come to the table identify yourself Mister Smith. Economist from the university of central Arkansas as Arkansas center for research in economics I'm here to speak of my own views not to represent you CA so I'm here to oppose this bill for the for three reasons first of all it's a pretty big subsidy per job second you for them saying the scent of the Senate side to that this is revenue positive because it has to pass a cost benefit analysis and I wanna explain why that's wrong and and they're just emphasize the process because this it's probably gonna happen anyway and based on sort of broader academic research let me start with the subsidy per job this could award of four million five million or six point five million in tax credits depending on the size of the investment to create a hundred fifty jobs but that's tax credits per year so if you divide the five million by hundred fifty you get about thirty three thousand dollars per year per job the jobs are supposed to be about average seventy five thousand if you divide thirty three thousand by seventy five thousand that's about forty four percent of those workers wages that are effectively can be being paid by the state in a kind of a round about way no lots of employees would love to have forty four percent of their wage bill being covered by the state but we can't afford to do that for everybody so it in practice against on just for a privileged few and that's not a good way to do business now on the cost benefit analysis I know something about how these are done bill the look at the direct jobs are created in the project then they'll use input output tables trip try to figure out jobs in upstream industries input supplying industries and then the look at the downstream jobs other created selling goods and services to the workers they add all those up but here's the problem there's an assumption here that all those people would be totally unemployed and that's what drives the whole announces that's how you get the positive impact but that's a totally unrealistic assumption. And I mean that that's why these these analyses but not much. Using that among academic economists that they don't use the of the really not they don't have merit and that they really shouldn't be being used as a decision and put by policy makers it is so that's the second point that meant ballot economic research that actually uses defensible Macon methodologies it tends such as by my UC colleagues it Jacob Bundrick and Tom Snyder or at larger reviews the literature by at ten bardic it read a book called making sense of incentives that covers this nationally or in making Jensen who wrote one called in since the pandered let's of lots of different studies these tend to lean against incentives to some extent but particular they're very dismissive of the idea that incentive pay for themselves they don't. That's the second point to make it and and the third one and this is also drink from the academic research on is that the sense of incentives usually not pay the double pedal in business decisions of. DO a market look at thirty four different studies became the the highest percentage of was that is that maybe seventy five percent seventy five percent at least of these businesses would do what they did anyway it's probably more so if you pay a business you give a tax break to a business to do what they would have done anyway that's basically just to give away of millions of dollars per year the show rules of those businesses there are things you can do with this money if you vote against SP five forty three as I would urge you to do today was probably going to happen is the same projects that are being completed is still going to take place will still still investment but in addition to that you'll have a few million dollars a year of extra revenue would you could spend on teachers you can spend on state parks roads broadband or best of all do it on tax breaks for businesses in general not just big politically well connected businesses but the little guys the smaller more entrepreneurial businesses that actually do most of the hiring and job creation in this state that would be a lot fairer and would also be better for the economy so thank you very much for your time I know pushing up pushing late I'd be happy to answer any questions you know either here or you know email phone or whatever but but I and I hope this information is useful in making your decision so it thank you very much honor to be here thank you Mr Smith the members you have any questions. Section the Clerk thank you very comments a concern I just have one question from an economic development standpoint Your analysis on how how to calculate that a little bit different than what we do and economic development so based on the payroll dollars what would be your multiplier to figure out an implant impact for economic impact for the region. Okay on I mean I have to it have to know a lot more than the information that you know I've been able to read on the part of the bill you have to look at the particular project I I mean most of the time you talk about a multiply the assumption is that you get more economic activity the fact is you're gonna be hiring these workers from somewhere you're going to be hiring them from other employers most of the time and so you know maybe you come out ahead a little bit I think IT ten barging does a pretty broad review one point and and I think he uses a lot of assumptions so I'm not sure how Furley he'd stand behind me gets like one point five two then you subtract the revenue and you end up with zero point five two so that would be sort of a small player but the key is the vote four percentage with the projects have happened anyway all these these cost benefit analyses are done as if every single one of these deals would not have happened without the consent but it's quite clear that that's not the case in so would most of the deals. The projects would occur anyway that's just a pure giveaway the inotes I mean if somebody came here I'd be very interested in whatever entity is being targeted by this. Coming down here in laying out saying okay a these are our revenue projections these are cost projections these of the profit margins in trying to actually show that this incentive is the deal breaker it's go or no go based on whether we get this or not if that were true if they can show that that was the case then that would make a difference. That probably still be narrowly against but it would be a close call at that point but that's probably not the case probably they're just basically getting an incentive to sweeten the deal for decision if they've already made it's not probably ended. Okay are you representing you see eye to eye I I mean I work for use yet but I'm not representing is not the reason I'm asking because what you're saying is in total contrast to your own universities economic development. Area also you ever saw just wondering who is represented. I mean I just to at Scott PhD economist just representing the academic economics literature you might not not the institution in UCLA thank you have many economic development deals have you worked of this nature. Well let's see how many by I mean. But that would be a complicated question to answer okay that that that's reasonable a representative within two to administer. Yes it is Mister chairman of are you are you familiar with of East Arkansas. I mean I know somebody yeah. How much of what kind of a what's the economic condition over there. Well I mean it it varies by area I mean I think you know some like Jonesborough is doing decent about Jones Berlei issue about the stark yeah I mean I know some areas there are very much struggling and I actually think it's important help them I just don't think this is a good way to do it well that's a matter of opinion but the any job hopeful job in the northeast East Arkansas though Jonesborough is doing great tools doing grade level is doing great but this book over there they've been blessed because of the fact of these plants that are over there that qualify the we've been given on this we're just extending it it is it is approved there's been the billions invested over there and have added jobs over there the average salary of about eighty five thousand dollars a year in and I think any effort that we can make would you agree with the depressed economy and the economic situation over there any effort that we can help those people we would be for the betterment of the state. Well I think it's fantastic that the steel mills that have opened up a bit but do they actually need this money that's right want to see the revenue projections and the cost projections and see I mean it generally the academic literature says usually businesses don't make decisions based on these usually they decide what they want to do and then they try to get a little bit of a incentive dollars you just read the bill a little bit so I mean if the case is just give away the Cheryl is not going to call a. If if this is a situation where do other studies give millions of dollars to Toyota Nissan General Motors to come into there because the city's and come into their counties and bill plans what's the difference and then what we've done of the But we. Well we know that heating or we'd all competing in the you know Pittsburgh used to be a still product producer and it's not now it's lost it so so we need to do do you know do you know agree that we need to do whatever we can to keep those facilities open read the writing in an economic way represent the should promote economic development I think this isn't the most effective yeah you asked about whether statements states do it I mean meeting Jensen so he's written a book that in incentives to pander he goes into a lot of depth and looks to the public opinion data and all sorts of stuff and his theories basically politicians just do it because they want to get credit claiming for the for the deal to come through now I'm not as cynical as that I mean I think that missile these cost benefit people who use them probably believe that they're true but it's it's a case it's a lot like the the old joke about it since then I can't compete with the represent of a McElroy but on the it the keys being dropped under the street lights gentleman right please try I would encourage you to to have this discourse amongst yourself if you would and we're going to carry on Are you ready to close soon. Yes Sir I know members appreciate the Dodgers on Austin long day long session for everybody I appreciate the public do coming to engage in this part of the screening process is for the citizens of Arkansas necessary right to come to force other opinions so I do appreciate to the discussion but I will say I will tell you that Without these type of projects big river steel and Nucor Yamato those folks were never been located where the they've been I would I would be here I think we can all probably agree with that any projects wrong going to kid keep help stimulating the economy and to represent woods par point these companies will not be locating in these these areas whether it's a car manufacturers still Miller were ever without to these type of