City, County & Local Affairs Committee - Senate

Thank you for going recognized for the committee's record. State recognized personally thank him stay Senator bart Hester members this is a a fairly simple bill it just allows it helps. It helps wholesalers from having Customers game the system in a small example would be if you have a customer that runs of a significant bill on you as a wholesaler you cut them off for non payment they just move to another ho sailor run up a bill that kind of offer non payment they move to the next wholesaler right of a bill and ended up filing bankruptcy or selling to someone in the it just becomes very difficult in this is becoming more commonplace in the industry and so what this bill will do will allow you want once you cut somebody off to to notify the tobacco control and you know they would just basically send out notice but those people on we're not able to buy for many wholesalers to they get to. They get their bills current. And there's processes for that and I'm happy to answer any questions part committee heard the bill any questions. Senator Rice. Thank you I'm sorry and it is now looking at this. It is this for repeat offenders as you stated our what if a aye ayes retailer but created very. Erasure's Last sometimes I have a dispute with somebody in fact I didn't get the merchandise not my fault didn't sign for but you've got me bill for is there something you're going to keep something like that from kicking somebody off. Rarely happens but it happens Mr if you don't mind I'm going to have a friend help me out with this yes he will go into default you Sir for the record yes Sir I'm John how being owner Tom fits back a couple of my can you to pull your market. Okay is it better yeah that's okay thank you. My name is John how can on the owner of Tom says tobacco company and pine bluff represent Arkansas wholesale distributors association and we have eight members in the state and we're all in favor of this bill and to answer your question serves this bill is just a really dedicated for mainly for hot checks we get a lot of hot checks from people and by the time he goes to the banking system you know could take several ten to fourteen days we notify the customer third you know we're gonna cut him off with they'll just go to another whole cellar and not pay so it it may take us over thirty days or so to get our money. The I appreciate an explanation of what we're we're seventy one your families got and we've seen everything to yes I I just I know sometimes there's that can be a legitimate dispute but when you get a hot check it's a check I understand what you're doing thank you yes. Senator Clark. I wish I had something like this. Don't you Senator a. You can't live for anybody else if if you don't pay me I'm not sure about the state's involvement in that but it seems to be overly broad to me where is it in here about disputes because it is not unusual for me to have a dispute with a wholesaler and it's not unusual for the wholesaler to be completely wrong or to have failed to share credit two years later so of may not happen in your industry but you know it because it's very annoying when you when you pay your bills on time you keep getting that that pass the bill that you don't know when you you have people sure you that they're going to get it fixed but in here it looks like I said put gives all the power to the wholesaler so what happens when there's a dispute. Well I'll tell you and you know if you have a dispute I mean this is something you work out with the customer of having. In in my business you know if any dispute of credit or anything we can take care of pretty pretty easily. so we don't have this not a big problem for us. But it appears here that if you didn't you could distillery Taylor. AS or you're not gonna be able to buy from anybody practice that's correct. The same acceptable they would thank you. SunTrust. I'm guessing this will require a B. C. D. Right to rules good good I have the Director come up. Ask questions absolutely. Really channeler director IDC Administration. What you're recognized. Director up you get our drift on this and I I understand. The reason for specially on because it doesn't say just hot checks in here so How would the your agency a police this if there is a dispute and I can't think of the scenarios right now but I there's always some scenarios but you know if it's strictly hot check one why would that be in the bill where it would give you a is substantiated thing do you first see their baby being some disputes that this would give by Senator Clark Is total power over to the ocean okay I'm sympathetic to the calls I just wanna know how it's going to work yes Sir are your senate this is one of the issues that we took with the bill on the house side is that this is golf so it doesn't just limit the collection for past it also includes past due input in voices it doesn't limit it to just insufficient funds it does have a past due invoices and there and you can often run into a situation where those are contested invoices but at the same as the bill as currently written five days past due notices provided to ATC at that point we would notify all the wholesalers and manufacturers of this either invoice that is past due for the insufficient funds and once they they must satisfy that promptly and notify and we depend upon the wholesaler to notify eighty DC that that this the invoice or that insufficient fund has been satisfied and per the bill if they fail to do that within thirty days pay within thirty days of that notification that we're by statute suspending their permit. Okay a. I'm I'm very sympathetic the to the. People are owed money. Got a bunch of stuff that's Senator were on the computer I just don't want to be misused thank you. Senator Flippo you have a question. Any other members have questions Senator Clark. This question from a different angle of ill coming back to the free market. The bill I have there's been major development I'm in the building material business. And there's been major development in my area over the decades that I wasn't involved in because. The people involved. Of I didn't think were credit worthy although my competitors were sole of large amounts and I decided to stay out of it I've had competitors that wholesaler soul that I warn them they were making a mistake and they ended up. Being owed hundreds of thousands of dollars and have a normal COD what what does the free market component not work in the tobacco business that you you make your own decisions on credit and whether to sell somebody or not so somebody. What. We make our own decision on whether to sell someone we get credit information problem and check it out and generally. It's it's kind of comical in a way you get a phone call from retailers nine they say all of a sudden I want to start buying from you and you know we know who they're buying from a member at that time and. The reason I want to swap to us is because they're having problems with this other wholesaler either hot checks are not paying their debts you know things like that so then we can we can call the other wholesaler and check it out. And you know go from there as far as whether we want to issue a credit or not. Thank you yeah I think a more to narrowly tailored anything that will hot checks for this but this is for anyone else I'd be interested in the. Thank you Senator Solomon. Thank you Mr chairman if you're of cast the Director question Mr if you could come back to the table yes. Would there be in the rulemaking process for this room to include a dispute resolution in the rule to implement the law. Based upon the statutory the bill language it is pretty clear cut the the rules that we would have to put in place and the mechanisms that it doesn't give me in the rule making process I mean I have to can keep those rules tightly confined to the languages of the bill and so I would be going out and it would be up to the rules committee to approve okay stop thank you so how come you all didn't included dispute mechanism in the bill because obviously you have disputes on both sides and this bill only addresses one side in the dispute. Well. Actually Sir with a. Anything like this could be handled in a rule making process you know when I probably to rules. So did you talk with the rulemaking what did you have that discussion with the. Arment when. Because everybody is sympathetic with what you want to do it right but there's got to be a mechanism. Far resolving disputes you know the. No Sir we have not talked about that we have I have talked with of Mr salen on couple occasions you know about the bill and we're willing to work with the tobacco control you know whatever they need I served on the tobacco control fourteen years so okay very familiar was it for you there were disputes. And so like say we're we're very willing to to work with them and make this as easy as possible okay thank you thank you Mr. Are there any other questions from committee. See now we have a couple people signed up one four one against the. Charlie Chandler. Speak against. Really challenge Director ATC administration and some of the issues that I was going to raise I have addressed and answering questions however one of our concerns is the intrusion of the of ATC into the collection of a private debt or more importantly the dispute over invoices and without. Having a mechanism for the retailer to come to us to present their concerns because one of the issues we raised in committee in the House side was the lack of due process set out in the bill some of which we could draft potentially and rule making process however. I cannot drafted rulemaking process an entitlement to go to circuit court at that is not something that's contained in the bill and and would be a due process concern for us and contained in here because we are held to an automatic per the language of the bill automatic actions five days past due they provide notice to ATC we notify immediately the whole servers we're the independent on the wholesalers to notify us if that debt or that disputed invoice has been paid otherwise we immediately start suspending the license the they in I set out the suspension mechanism of the number of days but if it continues that dispute continues on and that that bill is not paid within the suspended time we tack on additional suspense suspension time to that that period so disputed invoice that might take months in a civil court which they have a remedy through civil and criminal actions on hot checks and and that collection. That could extend the multiple months in in trying to get trial dates and in civil court and the main in the mean time you have an administrative action we're we will continuously suspend that permit where they can't sell tobacco products. And they can't purchase tobacco products to be sold legally and so that is a concern for us on the the. Containing in this building And so if and so the the past due invoices we also have a you know one of the issues is races as a deterrent factor the fact that this may go into law alone is not necessarily a deterrent factor we have in place laws of advertising selling below minimum possession of unstamped cigarettes purchasing from a licensed dealer and selling to minors and yet we still are continuously riding violations and seeing those funds over and over again. We also have a concern about if we go down this path of enforcing their invoices and they're insufficient funds that we're going to have the additional expense of staff and running and happen to have additional staff members to handle the volumes of invoices that we might be handling. Any incidents like this in in regard to the alcohol industry. The ABC has a different mechanism what the ABC has in place is only limited to insufficient funds and if we are notified and provided documentation of the insufficient fun we then place the retailer on a list that's maintained on the on the ABC website of of those past or those insufficient hot checks and once those have been paid they notify us and we take them off of the list the rule that is in place on the ABC side is that the retailer is prohibited from purchasing any additional products until that in that hot check has been paid. But it is limited to the hot checks. Do you believe that do you believe that state government should get involved in collecting debts from private company. I do not I believe that this is something that should be a remedy outside of state government that the it should be something maintained within the US civil and criminal practice procedures like that are all right Senator Clark. Director of the we have. ALJs in the executive branch the mystery Walters's of in different areas question that somewhat but we do but it the age. In every case I can think of settled disputes between the government. And the. Citizen I can't think of a place where they sell dispute between two citizens and I can't think of a place where they don't have access. To the courts if after if you're not satisfied with that speed can you no Sir I cannot thank you. Our center. Thank you Mr chairman so does this cover Like just bad debt not hot checks so someone just hasn't paid their bill correct. Correct if they haven't paid their bill of the you set up the staff leased terms with that customer and say if you give them seven days or fourteen days whatever and they go over like forty five days and they don't pay their debt and then you can turn it into tobacco control. So and I guess to kind of the senator Clark's question is I think all of us have customers you are slow to pay or don't pay and then you also have customers who don't pay because they're unhappy the product in a rise in the and the. Form they thought it would be or was damaged or whatever so what if that's the case to customers I'm not paying because the product was damaged or was insufficient or whatever it is so as our age are the state to get the middle of settling that dispute no Sir the like say with with customers like mine and and I just had an episode last night we're you know of one of my delivery man made a delivery over for city and he said the product was short you know in the whole order there were some shall shortage well it was taken care of right here on the invoice or would not it would have been taken care of this morning when the when the when he got checked in yes of the disputes like that are easily and and even companies have it in the of policy you know you have so many days to handle a dispute if you have the order comes again and it's it's short product or product to standings you can call in and they they will take care of it within you know three to five days thank. Any other questions from committee. Saying that we have a. John how are. Speak for. Yes Sir. Alright you okay Sir one thing I wanted to mention you know we keep you talking about the civil process and everything you know of course we have high check laws in the state of Arkansas we're we should normally be able to take a hot check to the prosecutor in our area and haven't resolved. You know the one thing is law a lot of prosecutors don't like to prosecute done we don't wanna handle to begin with another thing they're too busy with murders and drugs and rapists and things like that so it's not a high priority for all in also I believe that of one of the problems is if we give a customer any terms like seventy terms Fite deliver to among the first and I don't collect money or to check until the seventh or eighth that check comes back insufficient they say that we've given on terms and they won't prosecuted if we've allowed the customer to have terms. Thank you Mr chairman members I've I certainly appreciate and and and thousand agree with the free market perspective that the reality is tobacco is not a free market we just we determine who gets to sell it how it sold who we sell to all aspects of the tobacco world our are controlled by by the government we this is this just an issue to to help these people in a in a market that we control every aspect of to to be able to operate their businesses more fairly and I just appreciate a good vote I actually I will I will say this we've visited with the attorney general's office quite a bit on this the they're comfortable that we can promulgate rules to address the notices and to address the address the address many of your concerns on here anyway as with that I'd appreciate a good vote. Our what will of committee. We have a motion. You saying none Senator Hester I'm sorry bill fails. Next on the agenda is the. Yes the motion to suspend the rules here we we've got Senate bill five seventy three Senate bill five seventy three we're gonna need a motion to suspend the rules tear center we have a motion sensor Hendren to spend rules all those in favor say aye. When is second on that to have a second Senator Clark. We don't have a second chance Clark with second Senator Solomon. This section shall not suspend the rules all in favor say aye aye. Senator Clark give some. Suspending the rules. It doesn't. Six. I guess it's just a scratch does not say if it's a debatable motion. Share or. With the chair allow debate. Sure. Of so I gave Senator Dismang a motion yesterday on this but I have a question as to why we're suspending the rules to hear it again I mean we okay we because we do it but usually we've got a good reason right allow that going. This is just a compact concurrence on house amendment and a Senate bill and I'm just requesting that because not knowing exactly when you guys going to meet again in order to get it done so you'll okay we'll warm were not meet again so are that satisfy yes okay. Seven okay we're gonna passes out we do in each amendment separately so. Five seven. Seventy three. Senate bill five seventy three yes Senate bill five C. three there to amendments and the first amendment and the second members do the same thing only the second minute of the first amendment thing better. What you want to go and repeat that Senator Ballinger yes so so essentially ought both amendment to do the same thing it it incorporates referenced other code sections to make sure it's it is clear that we are we are amending or changing those other code sections which are restricted places have been also incorporates to to allow the posting of signs still in places that have the the survive call so the second amendment is just a cleaner version of the first amendment to alleviate the concerns and and to help satisfy counties and and the minutes will own places that also like event did things so that was the that was the amendment both of them do the same thing only like I said the second one is is is a cleaner version of the first and and the language of the bill is included the the change in the bills included in the amendment so they are essentially the same. Heart we're gonna need a motion to concur in the house yet so so I it It please a committee I'd love to hear of Moshe to concur in the house amendment one the Senate bill five seventy three or. Senator Clark motion and second sent Flippo. Two concurrent house amendment one. Prime closed session on that. All in favor aye All opposed. March second. We need. When you do the same thing with the second amendment. Thank you senator Clark to concur on house amendment in a second Senator Flippo any discussion all those of favour. Opposed thank you committee is. Your members been adopted thank you. Senator Hendren. And Mister chairman since this is our last meeting and we had eighteen eighty four million agenda for the last meeting I'd like to do the same thing for Senator Dismang that we just if Senator Ballinger to make a motion to suspend the rules to hear house bill eighteen eighty four the card. Twenty second. The second. We we have a motion to suspend the rules. To hear of this eighteen eighty four and a in a really strong second by Senator Flippo. Mister Senator Clark. Your reasons for. All right Senator Dismang you want to go. And be able to pass out to carry. Thank you for the question so why we back here today I mean I'd like to say because there is a lot of confusion that was created by the attorney that was at the end of the table last time a lot of that can be cleared up if we are able to have a conversation before and I'd argue that that was intentional by the attorney to make sure that we did cloud kind of what we're talking about in fact in his testimony we can go back and watch we're either lysed pieces that we're getting retracted or amended out of the bill due to the amendment and claiming that they're in and picking the pieces that he wanted to say that we're in the basement and so again I think there's a lot of confusion I think be good to have a good discussion about what this bill actually does not something that's money something that's clear what we're doing here is very very simple it only deals with data that is owned by the counties and is subject to F. O. Y. and with that that's reason I'm like to just have a another discussion we're at the end of the session I think it's important issue. Sure. Yes Senator Clark of Clark the. We have again we often do this of for good reason of suspend rules and we always like to accommodate but the I ask you and the center is buying it I have those people who were on the other side the or were they able to be here they're all back there and in fact I'm here by myself okay I don't have a heart prostituting I don't have a CEO sitting behind me I'm here by myself but they've got a full full house here and I think you've all received texts and Clark I we would not have heard this bill this morning had in the sign up in here so very good thank archer thank you senator comment. All right we have a. That's that's the only amendment. If you have an amendment. We adopted the amendment with me the last meeting I believe so it should be good Sullivan R. S. is amended yes Sir. You're recognized in center this. We have we have not voted on the roof on the motion to suspend the rules. I have a motion and a second Senator Flippo to suspend the rules and discussion on the motion all those in favor I oppose motion carries. You're recognized by. Thank you Mr chairman committee members and I believe we do have an additional number that wasn't here to to be able to hear some the testimony so I'm not going to belabor I think we all understand the kind of what's happening here there's a lot of discussion about this data and proprietary information being a part of it that was going to be disclosed in them back dooring in reverse engineering and all those sorts of things. The Amendment clearly states that what we're looking for is data in a common file format if there's proprietary information that's left with that that that that that is the fault of the provider. Again it is just common information common data that can be utilized I've talked to some county judges after the fact that had to be heard about this testimony heard about this bill it actually used to this provider that's what I mean by the way there's not providers in the state there's only one objecting to the disclosure of that information just just think about that for a minute there are multiple fighters that do this in the state of Arkansas and only one objection and what you probably should ask yourself is why or maybe when they come testify against you should ask why. I would argue that the more difficult we make it for they are that they make it for the county's themselves to obtain the information or entities or other governmental bodies to obtain that information the more valuable it is for them. That means that they are the source for that data for resale which they do. Two other entities improper from data that is actually included and provided by the county's information that belongs to the county's data that belongs to the counties with that I'm sure will have a good discussion here in a minute with the opposed but I'm not here to muddy it this is not complicated we can try to. No dusted up all we want to but at the end of the day this is data that should be made available for those that are requesting in a format that they can utilize not one that gives away proprietary information but one that can be utilized. With that I'd be happy to take any questions for any questions from committee. Senator so what does that mean that the the data that conformity can be utilized so this gives you like CSV file not excel or what we talk that's all we're asking for CSV file or or just a common format that's generally accepted Be provided which may get the PDF back. When you make that request will you can't exactly utilize that PDF or you get data that it is an organized that's not useful lever that I may have met the FO I request but if it's not useful Senate Johnson had a great example last time where if you remember Pulaski County sensually refused to provide the voter data that's F. O. Aibel to those that requesting in any format besides PDF which means that whoever wanted to utilize that data had to take transition it turned it into something else before they could utilize it again this is information that's there and in fact part of the bill just says that whoever this provider is damn anyone else they just have to say what kind of data do you have a minute what what we can we make available that's part of the bill thank. Are any other questions Senator Johnson. Thank you Mr chairman and more clarification to Senator Dismang comment about my story I tell last time you brought it up in those days or does this thing is PDF. Thank you it was paper they could get just plain Ole print it and you member dot matrix printers you're not old enough to remember dot matrix sorry okay but I talked to my. My daughter about this the one that actually understands these things and and talked about how can you in and out I was not familiar with some of the weight The New or databases work but I basically Asker's is this. So that could be proprietary if you got it someone. Could basically take it would be I don't know what percent I think I ask eighty percent of the work and they just added there something around and she said that that yes that that she did seven done all the time but she said she sent down where they got that and built a shell around it and I thought so I'm I'm not. I'm not. I understand the issue on electronic information but she helped me understand that this is more than that this is something that's that. Can be proprietary over and above just what would be an Askey or excel or tab delimited or comma delimited or some other format and so I that's that's my biggest concern and Sir do you have any. Reason to help me not have that concern yeah absolutely I mean because the way the bill rate res written it only requires the data doesn't require any prior to information to go away or anything else and I'd argue that the information is available because they're providing it to other vendors for sale so clearly that information's available somewhere in in a raw data set that again doesn't you know hinder their ability to have you know. Their ability to still utilize the the the the information but again I talked one county judge. They had an issue getting their own data this is the data that they they actually provided to the provider they couldn't get it back in a format that they could use that doesn't make sense to me all we're saying is that that data can be requested it can be extracted and provided to someone else for use for them to use it again that's not always provider I mean I know economic development teams that want to have access to this data or not able to get it. Because it's not provided no usable format why. Because if you don't provide a usable then you've got something to sell. That the Markham Indiana I'm sure you'll hear different but it I'm pretty sure I'm spot on there thank you. Any other questions. Committee. Saying I'm we have anyone in the audience which speak against. You come to the table defy yourself for the record. Then you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman and committee some document title some of you know me I'm a former state representative years ago former chief deputy secretary of state to secretary Martin a lot of familiar faces some of the I know really well for a long time Senator Hendren we don't want to talk about all those days years ago some of you I'd I'd like to know better I take no pleasure in speaking against the bill against you said this bill senator Smith Dismang so I just wanna make it clear I'd like to just more address process in my view and from my perspective on behalf of the premise I do business consulting for them I really don't lobby for them and and less I get dragged into having to come testify or something as you all or where we've the firm retained other a lobbyist for this issue this bill is filed a couple weeks ago. It was not filed early with a clear ability for all parties I I believe fictive took clearly speak into the issue. This is not a simple issue technology is not simple unfortunately as we all know and it's changing and evolving ever quickly. The bill kind of moved to the House quickly before legal review could take place and then I ate a person is to Bring on some help to try to educate folks on what this bill potentially could do not just to them but to the industry potentially sent to some counties as well again I apologize I'm not a technologist I know enough to be dangerous I know and you know I I could speak a little bit about some things but let me talk more a to about process and making sure that everybody feels hard I I can say that I do know that apprentice and I think other technology vendors that. Really are sure how to address this issue up I know there for openness and transparency in data of course everyone knows that the custodians of the date as the county it's the people's information under FY. But also I do know that I think to apprentice the county's elected officials perhaps other state agencies to regulate these types of matters I know later on it gets into technology auditing and regulatory items there as well at all levels of state government I I lay this out so that you understand there's a lot of people a lot at stake holders in this conversation that probably need to get around a room the same table and be made well aware of legislation that's pending I don't know what nobody likes to hear interim study it feels like a wasteland I get it but we've got I feel like on this issue it's so complex and it's so narrow it only affects counties. It only talks about data bulk extracts extracts in in Senator Clark you made some great increase a lot of them on this issue as well perhaps even the conversation needs to happen. In the interim on this issue and how are counties can let's let's just call it is monetize this data a little bit to folks who profit from it that's a fair conversation to have and probably necessary one I would wager to say. There are counties. That you represent. They're already monetize this end could be inadvertently to the senator. In impacted negatively they could lose revenue potentially if this legislation as written is adopted. I just throw that out there so you think it through all the way and we make sure we spent the proper amount of due diligence on this thing and come out with something on the other side now as a former member of the House. And and I think my my word is good I hope with this career. I want to work with you to try to come up with something that everybody can at least live with or at least feel like they're Hendren. instead of and I appreciate your position Senator because I've been there where you're you're trying to run a bill you approach somebody and you feel like man they just dismissed me and didn't talk about it. Been there I understand it's frustrating I mean but. This issue can't be solved in five minutes or ten minutes hello honestly you know the attorneys that that were reference could not make it so. AT and short notice for you know is it was on the calendar after hours last night and and not and it was confusing so people were scrambling to try to make sure that everybody could feel hard long short I apologize for going on I just think this this cake. Looks like a debate on the outside but when you when you put a knife and it's kind of you in the middle. And I appreciate you just consider a no vote on this bill as amended as amended and has written thank you. Are any. Mister Tucker we have a question for you I'll get out of the well as soon as you can the. Question center so looks like we're gonna. Yes your committee hello there yeah so how does a county miss out on money. The on information that belongs to the council by people citizens of the county extracting their own information yeah well well Each county is different as I understand it I don't know the structure of every technology companies contracts with counties okay but of course technology companies and I apologize for butchering this my understanding just what May thirty level to it did he I I mean I don't know the specifics but makes my understanding some counties have a have revenue sharing agreements with other technology providers. And yes some of that becomes a compromised inadvertently even it has a potential second Senator Dismang raise several questions and it didn't seem like you addressed so apparently yeah I may not know the answer to that and so a lot of the seems pretty technical to me and and look Senate is man I'm sure is very very technologically savvy this is detailed business I mean we all work from talk sheets when we run legislation for folks and stuff we do the best we can you know I don't know this is the origin of the questions he had or in the background information but it you know okay with that many others you can answer and sound that technical to may I cruise are you selling the data okay well I I don't want to answer that directly. I I can't answer that. Okay no I mean it's it the premises not in the data sales business. They they don't do bold data sales this is not their core business okay thank you thank you Mr the way of all mortals Senate Yanchep question. Yes thank you Mr chairman a representative Matiz good to see good to see you soon Sullivan. Did you hear my. Comment question to Senator Dismang about the question I asked my daughter about the taking the. I will call proprietary data but the S. the purported proprietary data which includes the public information that one could take that and build this holiday shall this maybe not right right right was was I I mean I disorder online account so I think you were moving in the right direction you know I'm not a coder I'm not the hacker but I know I have kids ranging from fourteen to twenty five in their friends some of them I promise you if they had a way and they just go have fun okay you know I get I'm not asking you down no I understand and logically don't make you in a fight with this I'm just trying from and RES say that it's conceivable or possible sure how to spot someone knew what they were doing and I want to make it clear to I'm not casting aspersions on any member of either legislative body any other vendors anything like that I feel like it's probably coming from a place of the you have parties to just see the world differently because they live a little bit different worlds they have different markets so they have different agendas and they may not know how that creates an unintended consequence to legislative action and you know we've all unfortunately had to live through that you know we pass bills we think there was a bang it you find out all man I didn't see that one coming so. Anyway thank you thank you Sir thank you senator Clark if the question for Doug is I'm trying to see. Of I haven't found the gooey center. Of the. I look at the member the public records in the common file format the does not disclose the proprietary software code of the third party work product record provider and does not appear the excess building is built in the data. The. If I request of the data then it was given to me on a. Forty five. Record. I have a turntable. I could plan on but still wouldn't be very helpful but it was given to me in paper form. Of I can read but still not very helpful of you know and I you know I'd do advertising and use of the lower the the different picture file formats I don't remember which is which is I have people work with they can use them all I know how to use a couple and muscle force adapted for a couple but again we know that there are common. File formats of. The make things accessible and under are for your loss. One should these records not be in those common formats why should they not be in those regular regular rather than a forty five. Record or rather than you know the the old player piano as the the the cylinders with the ridges on it I don't want that. I don't have a player piano but did it wouldn't it would take way too long to work with I will you know I wanna CD you know that's the for the is that saw the other side of format. For computer format but but that's something we all understand I will something that that works nothing special no special languages just common file formats there's not just one or two I think if there was just one or two that probably written in the in the bill but the but there's the there's a number but their common. Of the. What's wrong with that. I have to defer to the testimony the other day what without. I have learned when you start getting into technicalities with things lawyers like to speak to that and and the printer's lawyer is not here I don't have even a copy of the bill had in in front of you can't do you have it engrossed copy the bill. Yes okay sorry I guess I keep forgetting COVID rules still so I'm thinking old school Senator when we had all that on paper in front of us and. The. I will say this though senator and and without getting even into that thank you into that specific I can only speak to what I know about my client and I and I do know that they deliver. the FO I requested requests in the format the county ask for their clients ask for and to my knowledge without fail that happens and and that it is usable already so I'm I'm not even sure that. I'm not even sure that that particular at least intent that I know that intent is not a question in the legislation from their perspective. But I'd have to defer to his previous testimony I. I'm not gonna play lawyer. The. I have to you know if. But because I have to wonder. If it were me asking the county for the information. Just a neutral party has nothing to do with the two companies if I was us in the the county for the same information. I don't think the county would have any problem they never have any records of it and given me the information as much as I want any usable file format. and so it it it it. It would that not be the case. If the gentleman if you would go recognize yourself record. yes chairman my name is Alan Jennings I'm the president general manager for furnace information systems and I think I might be able to add a little bit of clarity I think that was an excellent question and this confusion that is surrounding file formats I think I can speak to that a little bit A few years last year in two thousand and twenty we had a seen a particular event that took place in one of our counties where they switched from one software application to another and at that time amid stat in the full year request that went out the county responded with PDS okay there was that was followed up with training for the county and new tools that went in for the county and within a short period of time those were replaced with excel files it ever since then and prior to the end and in all other offices in every county other than that to my knowledge all of the apprentice for you to vote data extracts that have gone out have gone out in one of two file formats which is either Microsoft excel or Microsoft access now I can't speak for other providers and it certainly may be a point that it that there was a different technology firm that provided PDS but that is not what is going out today the day that is that the vote data requesters are receiving today are Microsoft excel spreadsheets and Microsoft access databases now that is not significantly different from a CSV file format and if they wanted to see S. B. instead of that we can work that out my thought is this is a conversation between two private companies that can take place that doesn't require legislation and the verbiage that we expressed that we had concerns over yesterday we still have those concerns but I do not have a concern with the intent behind it and we're Senator Dismang is trying to go with this I think that being making certain that the voter data request rules are getting good usable file formats is good we just don't want something that is far reaching and we would like the solution. In our private market between these companies to take place in negotiate agreements between those parties without the assistance of this of this esteemed body but I do thank you very much for your time and it is truly an honor to be here and to work with each of you. Are any of the center. I guess I don't understand the conflict with the building if you're already able to provided in those formats. Yes Sir we do not have we do not object to providing data in any of those formats that's not the part of the bill we object to what the only thing that we object to in the bill is the language within the bill that ties data to functionality and usability and performance and we have reason to believe based on legal counsel and based on the analysis of the legislation that that can put intellectual properties at risk and we don't see the need for the bill if the data is going out in usable formats today in standardized formats and to the extent that there was you know a request to move from Microsoft to access or from that to a CSV file format I think that can be negotiated and we're certainly willing to do that but the farther reaching aspects of the language within the bill which I do think or unintended I don't think they're intended to create harm but I think that they can be problematic I think that's why not only a prince but you've also heard there are other technology firms that are that are objecting to this so we we just respectfully request that this be something that is studied more and all the parties that the table be able to contribute to that language and make sure that we get it right before we pass well you've got to build on their with representative tale show me where in the bill you're talking about functionality is required to be disclosed yes Sir. Me. Senator Dismang Sir I apologize if this is out of order is is this the is there any change from last time Sir this is the same bill thank you I appreciate you answering that thank you Sir. This is under section four Senator in numeral number two there is a couple of things in this where it says if the county contracts with third party electronic record provider electronic record provider shall enable the council to extract the public records in either the original file format and you heard me talk a little bit last time about original file format is concerning if original file format is proprietary so that is something that is concerning to us particularly some of our new web based software where that is a proprietary technology in and of itself or drop off for me the retains original file forms essential functionality and that word functionality to us is concerning again I understand the intent is Hey we want to make sure we can use this state we don't want to be jumbled up we agree with that but functionality in this case could be interpreted by courts as more than just a the the data plus the intelligence that's behind it that is our concern Sir I I mean I get that I think the fact that there's an order means you don't have to give them the original file format you can you can do that or you can give them a derive file format that basically has the same functionality and I guess I read that as means you can't give this PDF that has to be something they can sort something they can you know manipulate you my reading that incorrectly yes the way that I have read that senator and I and I agree this this is I'm not attorney my council can't be here with me today so I hope I will find out the thank you Sir I think yes one of those two things so it's either the original file format which we can't give or for its proprietary or we give it over with functionality and that functionality what is that what is that functionality I have to get is it just simply the date is organized and clean excel spreadsheet Hey we're good with that but we think this could mean more than that that is our concern Sir okay thank you. Any other questions from committee. Apart anyone else speak a sentence because I'm seeing the same thing on the bill that's online that he just reference but I think Senator sis DISMANG send the amendment to care that it might be good to have him clarify that because it might remove the objection that we hearing from this if we could share Senator Dismang if you want to go see inside. So everything that we just talked about on functionality in original file and all that stuff that that was ending in this part of the amendment would be great if we had a conversation prior to yesterday's meeting which was refused but if you look at page two it says on the amendment that it strikes deletes line twenty seven and twenty eight everything that he just talked about so public records in either an original file format that stricken or derive file format the retains the original files formats it's sensual functionality that was all stricken that is not what we're talking about that was replaced with the public records in a common file format the does not disclose the proprietary software code so anything is proprietary does not have to be disclosed or shall not be disclosed of the third party electric record provider in does not imperious sensibility and usability that's the key word is usability you give all the files in a jumbled mess it is not usable that's different I mean you can probably still satisfy the request that's a completely different thing it goes on to say which is something that they said the agree with. As used in subsection due to a of this section common file format includes without limitation the American standard code for information interchange and for large databases comma separated values all things they just said that they were more than willing and happy and already do. Yes. Thank you again if that sounds to me like the concern was addressed the amendment. All right any other questions Senator Clark give questions. No. What we do here we have someone speak against. All the other. Thank you state your name for the record yeah my name is Russell delarosa computer engineer software engineer database administrator for transformation systems so I've worked for suffer company that worked and did better data I work for axiom for fifteen years and I work for permanent so you never mind giving Michael yeah I do okay I mean a few political okay Sir yeah say no will I worked previously for for axiom and also work now for perspiration system so I've dealt with data basically for my entire professional career San. not a common I was gonna make that's fine is there is actually a section that was again this is a member this is what the Council talked about a little bit on Tuesday. Was that proprietary an exam date was actually stay stricken from with the amendment so they're basically asking for proprietary data again and exempt it again with the change in the amendment so it says that on the amendment Page two line thirty delete redacted proprietary sent and substitute the word redacted so basically the removing those words of that and they're still other concerns beyond that that I can talk about which is if you look at line six seven eight it says requires the contractor to provide the county official at his or her request a written list of all file formats which electronic records are stored. in my expertise this actually allows Like with the of for you on that data that was provided to the county official to be able to get more details about the steps about the system as a designer knowing the file formats actual often tell you city for my information about the system itself how it was designed how old it is another state information so I mean there's concerns about six seven eight there's concerns about how the amendment actually changes and adds back in the requirement to provide proprietary an exit data and just to clarify that there is a. I mean it talks about essential in the old one talked to Senator functionality but there is such thing as proprietary data I mean this proprietary data we use in our systems and then that would this bill as amended would require us to provide that information also. Centenarian question. Thank you Mr chairman I don't think the amendment you're interpreting correctly or you say Page two line thirty delete redacted proprietary exempt and then says just substitute redacted right of a partire proprietary exempt are still Arkansas. So they're saying it said previously it said shall not include a redacted proprietor exempt data so if you remove that now than. It changes the meaning of that again this is what it shall not all you can withhold is redacted stuff you got rid of proprietary an exempt. Right. So. Now I don't think that's accurate so Sir. Okay because it it previously said it should not include redacted prior to exams and now it just says it shall not include redacted data. Rector. So you don't have to give proprietary for exempt information the. This section does not apply right now I will read electronic folk provided in this section shall not include redacted. Redacted data origin data right read the redacted data only so previous is that it shall not include proprietary or exam date and they've removed that so now they so that saying and again this is what counsel I know you We're not here on Tuesday but that's what the council said that in choir those to be included I guess could I ask again Mister Senator Dismang that's the intent of this amendment yes. Sure I'm saying that's already in another part of the amendment so as not to duplicate what was already written so it we are your article that you're already taking that proprietary information above so the additional new part of the amendment does that for them in this this whole thing is under code for disclosure for I mean F. ally disclosure exam that is exempt data so minute that's already covered also so I don't think part of that when the dentist in this this amendment was presented by county this is their language that they want utilized and found that was utilized in other states and that's what helped you know crafts this piece of language here hoping that we touch all bases and to the point that's been made over and over again because we keep talking about things that aren't in the bill anymore I think to satisfy all parties there's only one provider here today that's testifying against this bill or this amendment or whatever it may be but I think it's I think what we've talked about is is already covered in the bill. I think again I think you're right and it's kind of confusing the way it's laid out there but this section that the the bottom part of the amendment there is just saying you don't give redacted stuff but you have set it and it doesn't say that means you have to give proprietary because you've already said previously in the bill that you don't have to disclose proprietary services thank you senator Clark. The Senator Dismang of moved from your amendments that last line. Of where you delete redacted prior to an exemption leave just redacted of would you have a problem with. The site is still saying redacted proprietary or exempt. I don't believe so things to put if I mean it so you go back to the whole point of the public records in a common file format the does not disclose proprietary software I mean I think we're we're covered but if we need to do it again we can okay okay the last bush bill Rosso question yes. Yes Sir so if you're if the property and exempt. Or exempt wards are added back in here then what is the problem. I mean I know that's that was one of the concerns but I don't really just answer like. Technical questions on this so I mean if you have technical note again legal hasn't had time to review this is a came back up just last night so we but preferred to have them talk about that but so technically. We put that back in. Four pro. I just I can't be arsed one that made recommendation to do that that was part of what they recommended based on the amendment so it I mean. I'm fine with it back in but they pulled it out because duplicative that was not anything that we recommended that a correct recommendations the Bill are trapped. There is definitely a difference in leased. Again. From what I've heard an exam data and code I mean those are different things code is different than data so that's why we won may not suffice to cover the other but again I don't want to go down that path on the legal side to discuss the. Okay all right thank you. Art Senator Solomon. I'm not sure this question is for maybe a Senator Dismang I thank. Sure there seems to be in there saying that they supply the data in a format that is usable and your contention if they're not supplying it I'm just as much time as I know but I don't they're saying they do and that is so I'm just wondering if it if they do and it is why we need the bill. Because I'm not saying maybe it's not them but I mean I know county officials that can't get thrown data I know entities attracted that detained that and can't get the data in a usable format when that happens and as far as this whole notion of subscription services I subscribe to one of their products that I utilize the data. That's fine I'm happy to because they have a software that lets me know utilize it and wait this beneficial but again. To your point. Then wires what what why is this team behind me if this is already being done this amendment is pretty plain language you for just being honest it's not complicated. Then then what are we fighting over and I would argue what we're fighting over is if you make it difficult to obtain that data not really usable for anyone else in your the entity that has the software to be able to meet David pleat that data you've got something that's available for resale they said early they don't sell the data that's correct. What they sell or the services to utilize the data there services utilized that I understand that's nuanced but when they said. When they said they don't sell the data maybe that's true but they do so the services or not for understandable yet reasonable I just haven't had any of my counties complaining that they have a and I heard them testify that there are certainly willing to do what's necessary to provide it in a usable form and some still wondering why when what the bill's going to do it in and I would contend that I mean there's court cases said that they weren't supplying in in a usable form the reason they got kicked out is for and that was one at every level set string Court Supreme Court where they said that you were essentially to the other party that you see the wrong and to use those words to the county so I I'm just saying I understand your county in your county maybe utilizes a complete different rider I don't know. It is an issue I know but I know counties that have had to switch providers because they couldn't get good data from the provider and by the way they have checked they had to pay a fee to do that thank you thank you Mr. Are any other questions from committee. But no one else COS. Our service buying you're recognized closed. Again it's I mean I just want to circle back at any one person as it is in a table and try to be direct with you and try to not muddy the waters and just say explicitly what's in this bill we had folks who said Hey let's delay in its way we've had folks that read things that aren't in the bill and try to tell you that they're in the bill. But I'm going to be straight up as I can be this data belongs to the counties and it should be available to those that want to see it in a usable format is the property of the county. And all you're asking is it to be delivered to those requests jurors. In a usable format I don't think that's an acceptable they said even in this group here they said they're all for it will fall for the more we posted. With that again I appreciate the time appreciate less you never revisit this and I appreciate a good vote. Our. What will of committee. We have a motion to pass from Senator Hendren. As amended. We have a nice strong second from Senator Flippo. Discussion. The Bill. All those in favor say aye. All opposed. The passes. Any other business for the committee. Say no more German. Thank you. I want to thank committee members for this whole year this will be our last commitment thank you for showing up and putting up with me the whole year.