Education Committee - Senate

I'm yeah I'm really excited to have this meeting today just for the point of information and clarification you know I I think that it's so very important for us to have a good thoughtful process and dialogue and interaction when it comes to our students and everything they experience for me personally and I know I probably speak for everybody that's involved with our students in activities and athletics and through education activities and and athletics they are such an important integral part I think of that experience for that student for that child and so many things that apply on the field or in the band room or even participate in quiz bowl or all these different things does carry over into the classroom for so many students if you can engages students and find something that they're really interested in and are passionate about and they're learning work ethic in their learning discipline and they're learning how to work hard and achieve goals and set those goals and learn how to compete and learn team work and learn what it means to be a part of a team and and pulling something together and and accomplishing something together I think so often we mean we miss the value of that and how that translates into the classroom for us so many of our students you know it's my intention to always try to find ways to plug these kids in fine what they're interested in help them learn and apply what they're learning in those activities and athletics into the classroom and they become more successful as students and I think there's just so much value in that and making sure that that system is workable and it's a good system for our students and our kids. And so I think it's very important that we have this meeting and we discussed these different things with our stakeholders we as a legislature are a big stakeholder in this because we do find all of our schools and those those funds if they're unrestricted and combined with U. R. T. funds and and so cool the money that the the schools have go to fund the triple a and so you know we do have the ability I think to want to know what's going on in this space and how we can be assistance and those I'm I think there's a lot of dialogue and cooperation and collaboration that can occur through input and reviewing processes making sure things are clear making sure things are understood and so the intention of this meeting today is really to have thoughtful thorough discussion when it comes to what the triple a is how it's funded how it's organized how it is governed what it structure looks like there's some confusion I think about that and then also these different policies and how they're created and and then how we can improve those processes so that our student athletes I'm can to participate and seek the best opportunities for themselves and so I want to say I've had excellent meetings with all these different folks that are involved with parents coaches athletic directors superintendents that posted on the board of the triple a plus superintendents who do not have met with the triple A. as well and so I'm just so grateful that people have reached out to me and I'm very passionate about this having four kids that have gone through the system and participated in all different kinds of things I also was a registered voter. Your coach and start of the soccer program from my Mountain View high school and I am very fond of that registered volunteer coaching program I think it's one of the best things going for our schools and for our and especially our rules schools and schools that just don't have the ability to have those resources like bigger schools do and some very interested in making sure that that is a continued and that it supported and I know that the triple a has done a great job of of a really guiding that program and I want to see it expand and grow and I'm really appreciate it to the superintendents and athletic directors who also participate with that program and I want to see that grow and there's lots of areas where I think you can grow that particularly I can go into detail but so that's the intention of this meeting today is really to try to have a thoughtful discussion to really understand the triple a structure how they're structured holler governs how they create their rules and processes and print policies and procedures and then how we as a legislature can have that input at to provide the public's point of view as well sometimes because we get all those calls as well so with that I'm going to go ahead and call up the Mr lance Taylor he's executive director of the triple a and he I've asked him to have give us a presentation and then if you'll just of the mikes and just introduce yourself for the record were thankful that you're here today we look forward to hearing from you and if just pressure Mike's introduce yourselves and then please proceed. Okay madam chair for thank you all for allowing us to be here today we appreciate this we always want to come over and be able to educate and tell everybody about organization and I'm just gonna start this way I will probably say this three or four times I think we have the most democratic organizations state of Arkansas because all of our member schools get to vote on every single rule that we have and I think that's why it's so important our our handbook right here the triple a handbook and it's on its own line two in two different spots but if you see in this handbook that means all of our member schools get to vote and so if it's a constitutional issues at the very front and it's takes two thirds of the schools your goal setting and if it's just a by law which is more eligibility takes fifty one percent Kamelot will you all do over here making your laws it's the same process that we have so again we we want to thank you for allowing us to be here today and we have all the members to have and if you're here you do have a copy that we've provided for you as well as a copy of this eligibility guide book as well. Right. Yes can you pull that micron up to you thank you spent the better yes I when you said I just wanted a clarification are there are public schools who are not members of the triple a are they all members. I think that I think they're all members yeah I don't know of any who are but when you said all that are I want to be sure we I knew what I was talking about okay and we have public schools we have non public schools we have charter schools and we have boarding school so well we we got a lot of schools we have a over five hundred members school to triple a yeah all right thank you. All right go ahead. Well first of all again thank you for allowing me to be here of. We are superintendent and the principals association release what we are now underneath our umbrellas we had three different groups we have the athletic directors association at all the athletic directors that want long long to and we have a liaison office make plaster and he works with that group of the second group we have in our offices Arkansas high school coaches association and Dr Julie Walters here he works with that group and he is there liaison and they also have a committee of the probably fourteen fourteen fourteen members just like the athletic directors do from all different sides schools and then we also have the Arkansas officials association in our office which don wrote NO worked with them and he's there liaison and training officials and camps and clinics like that. But again the only people that we let vote on our rules are superintendents and principals of the schools all those other groups have input and reckon recommend stuff to the to the different ministrations or even to our border directors which a whole lot of more here of behind me today but of again we have over five hundred member schools. And. We have nine activity districts that all of our schools belong to and there belong to him geographically around the state. And it does activity districts they have a President Vice president secretary and the secretary. And those people in their area. Get to elect who they want to serve on the triple a board of directors so their own peers both for them to be able to serve on the triple a board of directors we have twenty four members we have sixteen better elected from these different activity districts and then we have for at large members to minorities a female and a non look a nonpublic school of principal or superintendent conserving Act capacity so again we have twenty board members that are elected by their board of or when they're actively districts around the state so again there one there to represent them. Now you would thank most boards could make rules. And our board cannot make rules. They can proposed rules just like the schools I'll go to that from these connectivity district but again once you become the rules only people get the board or old five hundred members of our socio Haitian so they have one goal her school only so many again we have high schools we have junior house and we have middle schools anything seven through twelfth grade that's a part of they can be a member of our association. Again like I said earlier our bylaws in our book which your we're probably dealing with today was eligibility that takes fifty one percent of schools to vote and what happens each year we go out in April TechTV district meetings and at those meetings the principals and the superintendent can propose new rules and a fifty one percent of the people at that meeting agreed that that could be a good rule then it automatically comes back out in August where we meet you're in a a a E. a meetings when all the superintendents and principals are in town and they all get to vote on our rules at that meeting. So then so that's our process with making rules each year we have three different set of meetings for ministration sheer. The staff goes out in August and early September and we meet with all those activities or call the principals as a mandatory meeting for all the principals and superintendents in the state of Arkansas and we cover our rules with them we go we take about two and a half to three hours and go through make sure they understand eligibility rule there's a lot of turnovers with assistant principals lot of turnovers were principals room right now there seems to be a lot of people of turnover in superintendent so again we're always educating Neal recalls it's their job at their school to educate their parents. And their students. On our rules I'd we don't know what the triple a office who's going to what school who transfers or who moves or any of that so that's why to superintendents and principals responsibility to educate those parents and their students on all of our rules so that that is their role director school of. Thank you. You know the in the activity district meetings every year of the proposed the rules and and they look at things in terms of I was in my former life as a superintendent Northwest Arkansas prison of the activities Rick one west in Springdale in fatal area and and you look at rules as an administrator and you thank a number of things is education based is this rule going to be an education based rule that supports athletics and activities is it feasible. Is a rule that can be done in every part of the state because every every district is is different in terms of what they can afford with the cannot afford and those types of things and then also they look at is this a state rollers a local problem that we have to deal with and then of course I always look at live enhance the experience participation so when they when they look at making rules to enhance participation I thank all those things in consideration as administrators. And and everybody always ask me this question why are you the superintendent or a principal dissociation why do only those people get to vote on your rules and again it goes back to what of Dr Walter she said we're activities association so we have we're just not athletics were activities band choir if if a if the away all those of being that they might have their own state competitions but they fall under our guidelines for eligibility they fall we have to sanction of grants because we try to keep when the classroom as much as possible that's what we try to start everything after after school at three thirty in that way we can keep the kids in the classroom. We're also. I think it's too risky to principles and how what the doctor said. Superteam to principle to rolled finances for their school and so they want to make sure that everything is in their budget is done right because a lot of people coaches specially would like to spend more money more quickly new buildings and everything so again that's why we leave those decisions to the to the up to retention principal and also. They're the ones they have to evaluate coaches and athletic directors and everything for any kind of disciplinary issue so again they're the only ones allowed to do that in your school as a ministry or to other school so again I think that's another reason why we're ministration Association. When you talk about the the different committees athletic directors association the high school coaches association and the officials association they have committees are those then advisory committees to y'all yes and that might propose different rule changes or something that then it's brought to y'all or to us do you work through a superintendent or how to how to those advisory committees function in their recommendations and then how to those recommendations translate into a rule change or how the rules written okay so again that's a great question and and thank you for those issues are usually brought to the board of directors because those are under our umbrella and so again This take all three groups or from all this state from all those nine geographical areas that are actively districts so we get representation from all the state and again like in the coaches association I think you have to when I schools to to the school two to three a school so we don't even have any because we've always got to remember this a seven A. school which is our larger schools in our state Bentonville saleable Little Rock Central all the big school they might have a great rule but it not not be feasible for class one a school but they can never do that so that's when the board comes in in the when they get these rules they have to look at these rules only really find it the board does anything this proposed because it's automatically becomes out actively district is going to go to the government lauded for all schools. The board examines those rules we have three days of workshops during the summer and they have to make sure that it's first of all that it's safe for kids is it a safe rule I mean is it we wanna make sure we keep our kids safe and again the budget so they have to they make a recommendation do pass do not pass or no work no recommendation like the schools that's really their role during the summer they just look at the rules examine or but again all the schools get to vote on our rules and governed body meeting first of August every year so the board of directors to review them and then make a recommendation do pass not pass or just so like it with that same instance be true like if you have a sport that may not be present in all the different schools that are in some they they yes some schools may not vote on it because I don't have that support they're not real detail about that thanks for swimming or something like that. Committee because you have to push for you we have as an example of soccer coaches Committee baseball softball coaches Committee and kind of give you an idea how that works as an example about three years ago baseball and softball coaches came and they said you were having a hard time finding limited games because we had a a bylaw that said you play so many games in so many tournaments and some couldn't find gain some couldn't find tournament so they proposed for the spring sports like that that they would just have a total number of games in combination of regular season tournaments and the board looked at that and saying that it was something that it makes sense because not everybody can find to the retirement thing just fine game so just how do we get in the weeds on that but that's just a small example of how these coaches committees can come and say here's a problem is this a good idea would like propose it to you in the superintendents and principals they look at a look it was it feasible is at a local issues a state issue is it something that only affects a certain area or is it doable and that's that's kind of their roles administrators to look at those committee recommendations and and family and gifts and okay when you're rules are and written do you all have legal attorneys or outside legal advice that help you with the way it's written or so that at the because one of the things that can you know that may be in conflict if you find that there's language in conflict in your bylaws or policies and how is that addressed. We do have legal counsel you due to our rules yes ma'am okay and again. You'll have to handle called up we did well we have won a copy in front of us if we want to refer to it we do have the option to the if you'll turn to the Ford just at the very beginning studying for the handbook but it just but it's it's a rule that I have to call right there and it just says I think a the fourth paragraph down if there is a question concern any part of the handbook the executive director should be contacted for exclamation if there's a question concerning the eligibility participant any extracurricular activities executive director should be contacted in writing for official perpetration the rule in question and then I by rules of the board I have to return that in in writing and make sure that they understand rule if they do not understand rule that's my role as executive director to make sure any superintendent or principal or code to our parents if I don't understand on the day to do it right to me and then I can answer that have okay and then just in eligibility and and and you may start do you have more that you want to discuss our I just have a quick question senior high age rule what is that senior high age there there's a H. fry a rule for senior a yes they cannot turn nineteen ninety one before all this first okay already in junior high it's or is you can no longer playing junior high you can go it will go up senior but you can't turn sixteen or four four thousand first you're going to now That also wanted to go through eligibility and and how that's determined because there's different pathways right so of how that's determined because there's an eligibility hardship that is determined three U. S. so if you don't mind just going through that and I want to talk about that and then transfers and the process for that so let's just talk about eligibility for today right yes we we have thank. If you have a handbook I think it starts on page thirty thirty thirty Page thirty three thirty three you startled page thirty three in the first one there your seizure domiciled rule that you're always eligible we always try to save the kids eligible somewhere now you might be in the public school district eleven parents resident Bobby because he's a transfer my because the transfer to a nonpublic school there's there's all kinds of situations out there but again if if you read their They have to meet all the the eligibility rules to be eligible so you you can't have a four point old and and all your measures are good to be twenty two years old because it because again you're too old to you have to meet all of our eligibility rules to be eligible and that's not only for athletics that's also for activities so we actually we also we hold kids accountable because you have to have a two point impasse for academic classes each semester to be eligible and so again our kids do very very well I wish. In your role you could say every kid had to be involved in something in a school because we have statistics showing when kids are more involved in their activities at school they're going to do better and I thank you all know Senator Elliot Bennett teacher you saying that in in your role so again. That's very important for kids to do will and they will meet they rise up because they want to be able to participate in again I. R. eligibility rules are voted in our schools of transfers is at that time yes yeah and just just so that so if if somebody and and because I've read all of this and I just have a quick like when when somebody goes in the foster care with that then be and eligibility for hardship that you would determines that there's different paths of determination of eligibility and who determines eligibility correct okay so that I think there's just confusion about that okay so if you don't mind kind of exotic language difference between those two Page forty seven you're going to see the hardship exception for eligibility and that's the list I have to go by. I never make eligibility ruling on a kid at any school where the eligible or not unless a hardship the superintendents and principals have to know as well we go out teacher my rule they have to determine the eligibility we deal with about a hundred fifty thousand kids that are involved in athletics and activities seven through twelfth grade so there's no way that we could know all the kids out there so with that's why chair responsibility to determine eligibility in each of their schools and then there are there are hardship exceptions just like you said DHS gets involved in polls acute because it's not good for that can't in places on somewhere else I get a copy that in a hardship and everything I can prove that kid Beals well that's only time really that I've ever make you eligible is because of some kind of hardship and if that's just a documentation you get the right documentation it's all listed right there what they have to provide then I can help any student in the state one of the thank and Effie Act one of the things that you have written in here and I thought it was at a fairly. You know correct statements of this rule does not cover every conceivable example well this is of recruiting fat even under under the Harsha there's all kinds of different cases so you know I think of of people that may have custody issues or all of a sudden a parent that how'd full legal custody can no longer take care of that child for whatever reason may may die or whatever but legally nobody else has so those are you know I think you probably have things that fall out in kind of in a gray area is that is not a true statement that sometimes I do have that in this partnership card was situation out there that's what we have that what you just said because there's other things that you never know when we learn something new every day we can be in the situation he probably should be year that we can help because we tried to list everyone we probably would be able to list as handbook and that's one that language is in here to give us flexibility to always be able to help students if we can't okay. And can you and I know we've got a few questions and I'll come to those can you go through the transfer process so that people can understand how somebody transfers and meets the requirements of your rules and policies you bet was somebody calls are officer administrator principal and asked about a new student moving in to their district or coming in their districts we always ask the question if they move that mom and dad make a physical move or is it a transfer and and in our language there there's two types of transfers their school choice or there's a board to board transfer release from on board accepted by another board and all of those transfers with the school choice or board the board has to be done before July first. Going from six to seven. For July first from seventh to eighth grade. Before July first I'm eighth ninth grade and before July first from nine to ten grade level students that maybe an eighth grader that got their board Board transfer done and and let's say September they can get a JVC set form signed and played JV ball but they can't play varsity because it was not done before that time but for high school those transfers whether it be a board to board or school choice has to be done before July first entering the tenth grade. At that point they can get a JVC set form signed and played JV ball but they would not be eligible for varsity for a year if they transfer after July first going into the tenth grade. Okay what about eleven and twelfth grade any transfers of school choice or board board in the tenth grade or eleventh grade in the not eligible for varsity for a year. Okay so. Before before July before eleven I mean they got to get there before July first going into the tenth grade so if I'm an eleventh grader right now and I wanted to the board Board transfer from one school to the other I could do that if they accepted the bill for varsity athletics for a year okay. Okay before July one going into the tenth grade okay got to. Okay and and then one of the things if can you explain and so one of the things that I think is this the flow book this booklet that you sent me an this is it's a sixteen page you know guidebook and so. Is this an and this is something that this is one of my suggestions is that that anytime anybody is transferring that there should be something that they get like a parent should get it and sign off that they received it I think that's really important and that's just one of my take aways and reading all of this because what I don't want to see our principals or superintendents that are caught because it is like you stated your their responsibility to educate the parents but just like you have a student handbook policy that we as parents have to sign and the knowledge that we received the student handbook policy and that we will abide by these policies of the school I really personally think that this or you know more of a condensed version of it should be something given in writing to any parent that transfers and that they sign a cop sign that they've received it with that superintendent or that parent I just feel like that's really really important because you have included in here the different forms and some people I think are unfamiliar with these different forms and and what those forms are are required and then and the procedure for appeals I think it's really important to have in here to and sometimes those appeals I think apply differently in different circumstances in different cases is too so that would just that's one thing that I think would help parents out there and superintendents and principals as if you know they received one of these in writing and then acknowledge that they received and riding with the contact you know here is somebody who is a contact at triple A. this is the phone number call them if they have questions or something like that I think that would probably be something that would be helpful you can comment and you know something. Like that. Yeah we have a you know that information we have on our dragonfly we could do you know a better job of making sure they understand with that is the principals and administrators to to make sure they can they can hand that that information out one reason we're kind of reluctant at the office and in terms of we always try to send the students or parents back to their schools because we really don't have the authority to look at I understand or private information you know as far as our office their age their their grades that's the school's responsibility and so that's why we do our best to try to have them go back and talk to their principal in the administrator because they have access to that information right to them honestly right well you always think it's better to have something in writing says I was told this or something like that and that's just kind of one of my thoughts and takeaways I'm going to go to questions do you have anything else before we go to questions that you want to. Okay all rights. C. eighty eight Senator Clark you're recognized for a question. Thank you manager of the director of preshow to the job you do in your of. Care for kids. The. This issue is one that A if there's anything that I as a legislator contacted about but as far as the triple a is concerned it's this and you know I've had several conversations. Of and you know I don't think there's a legislator and that does not. Of the is not against recruiting of nor would there be many our Kansans are not against recruiting in high school sports. but are there are there is many exceptions made. When of when a high school student wants to change schools and as an athlete. Read and tend to you know if it falls under the hardship application then there there are and and that's more but of course if they move their automatically eligible Senator Clark most of our people move when they make a move they are going to be eligible when appearing to make one five moved now if you're talking about transfers again there is a time frame to get on there before July first before the in the tenth grade course that's between six and seven seven eight eight the ninth and ninth and tenth grade of. Hatred there's not a whole lot of movement after that. When I ran for athletics because I think they know that they're not gonna be eligible if their parents are gonna make a complete line five move but if there are circumstances that's no fault of the student on the parents and we we have that capability of helping students just so let's deal with that for just a moment because I know that you all are trying to be completely fair And we're trying to stay out of your business but so there is a two tier thing here because there are parents to have the means to move. And parents who don't have the means to me yes Sir so so you have a two tier thing there that somebody really wants their child to go somewhere else to play. They can and then other people don't have that opportunity the and I think you agree with that of but you are going to you know what we get into situations in the rare but that's why others we I asked about the exceptions of where you know a student was an athlete got cut at a bigger school. High school got cut in the cut from the team not even not just going to sit on the bench not even going to be on the team but it's not allowed. To transfer to a smaller school you talked about the importance of participating. that's one the having been in both the larger school in a small school when the benefits of a small school sometimes of the but under the rules not allowed to of not allowed to change schools. We'll for fall. We're education based and and you know that Senator Clark I know you off for a long time down and her voice star district when I was down here a long time ago that's where I got to know you appreciate you will yes Sir so when you look at transfer or not and and you gave a great example of I think there's three groups that you have to look at okay. First of all if if I'm going to school way and let's just say I'm a really good player okay and everybody on my team is dependent on me I mean there everybody knows Hey we've got. Senator Clark we're gonna have a chance to win a state championship this is gonna be a great year for us and also the Senator Clark Mouche. The school be. Is that fair to all those kids that were dependent on Senator Clark at that school they worry what's in this state not moving for half day academic let's just say he's is purely Act athletics he is not worried. About the other part okay so now I go to school B. and I had to think about those kids Nicks this is kind of how I think the board thanks about this another super tense thing about this is it fair to all those kids is it fair to join waters of Commissioner in going to that school and met all the rules his whole life and now he's a senior and it's his time to really do good with Senator Clark comes in and takes. Julie Walters plays. It is apparent that community because you live in a community how would you feel. For Jones got his pants is that fair and the that and more importantly is moving down to a different classification we can probably make a huge impact is it fair to all the other schools in that classification in that conference or compete for conference or restore state championship is that fair for all them so we started off this conversation with fairness and. All rules are trying to be fair to all it is very hard to do all made that but again it's just not one individual it's all the children because we deal with a hundred fifty thousand is it fair for all those kids across that level playing field and that's and that's were I fear that we miss it of as much and as hard as I believe that your trying and and the the in there some close calls. The I will give anybody but then there's others that I don't think or necessarily so close. Because I appreciate the explanation of you know first thing is no school before we talk about where the bison athlete or not no school will lose the money. So there's a prejudice there to start with of the nobody wants to lose the the average daily attendance money so they don't wanna lose a child to begin with then we come back to work they're a good athlete. Well that's not education based so coaches and superintendents are not inclined. If they're good athletes regardless of the reasons for leaving. To want them to leave. The of but let's say that the student and speaking from somebody who a family who school choices affected greatly both positively and negatively let's say that the student is in a school that is either failing or is just subpar. Of and has the chance to go to a school that is is very strong academically and could result in them being a national merit finalist. And going to Harvard Stanford center three. On an academic scholarship and they stay where they are they don't but will lose on because our quarterback. I know what the decision is going to be. and that's a in as much as I truly you know how much alike you and how much I appreciate you of but that's where I think that is the fallacy and the problem with our current system am I wrong. Senator Clark I'm telling you just. Based on my state. Again we look at all kids I thank I can speak with the board of directors I think they do and they try to make it is level as a playing field as they possibly can because I do know this there's never a team that wants to walk out on that field I feel like they're playing appeal the whole game because they've been following the rules in the other schools not so again I think we're always trying to level the playing field so every student that's going to participate in whatever they're going to participate in the matter what that they have a level field to play in a fairness issue and so I think that's one superintendents and our principals voted in the rules they have is trying to make it is fair to all the students as they possibly can. I have another very important question madam chair but I see a lot of mocks let up and yet as a chairman myself I'm going to be back in the queue all right appreciate it thank you so much. Representive Lowery recognized. Thank you madam chairman. First I want to say thank you for holding this hearing I think it's a shame that the for whatever reason the house Education Committee did not want to meet jointly on this because it's very important issue we've already heard. A lot of uh terminologies come up we've we've heard Universal acceptance of the fact that it's important extracurricular activities are important for students to be successful for them to have opportunity Mr Taylor you and I have worked quite a bit together over the last eight years specifically with the TMT bill legislation allowing home school students to participate in all extra extracurricular activities not just athletics. And I think the the key words that always seems to be missed I mean yeah I've heard fairness but I'm not heard anyone talk about opportunity. And that's really what we as educators whether we're overseeing activities or whether we're overseeing academic programs that's what we ought to be focused on this opportunity and my concern about some of these fairness rulings or exemptions or whatever is that they seem to be based on anecdotal. Situations. If the student athlete is wanting to transfer from one school or school district to another. an exemption may be granted if they're just a mediocre athlete. Okay but if they actually have a skill set. That can affect one team or the other whether the it's the one that they're leaving or it's the one that they're going to that that may be seen in a different way and you know I appreciate that you're you know very to the manual is very developed. But that's what happens sometimes when anecdotal examples come up and you have to try and legislate for the I mean it's like the old saying we we deal with that is legislators that that a camel is a horse designed by committee. And we do that and we end up adding pages and pages and pages to manuals in Senator Irvin as points well made is that parents just don't know they don't have an inkling of all of these different shades for instance I am is first time and I've dealt with this this these issues for a long time. I didn't know that if the parent. makes it move after July one of tenth grade year if they do it in the eleventh grade year that that's a totally different animal as far as the students eligibility and if you can I meet you said the cut off is that they have for advanced for transferred not really anytime you remove. That's a whole different ballgame okay that's what we ask are you transferring or you movie okay that's a whole different transfer would only be legitimate based on a change of domicile right or. No it just means you're going to leave this school district drive over the school district to participate in athletics. Further not moving if they make a complete bonafide moved they're gonna be eligible and and where were they okay so if there is an actual physical change of domicile yes Sir that deadline of July one get fired ten does not apply so and I and I know we've really not been talking about this specific issue that came up that has brought us to this hearing and I don't know if that's the reason but why was there any confusion about well it out represent Lowery I want to us to have a conversation not specific to anyone can general nature of these things because I think there's like universal I would say there's universal when it comes to recruitment just like Senator Clark said nobody wants to see a kid hurts when the adults were the ones that maybe not did didn't do everything rights I think we're all universally there you know and and I think those that's probably a point where we would all agree and then you know and then clarity clarity around processes is really important so that parents have real clear information and that it's in writing and they sign you know versus I was told to do it this way versus here's the book here the steps you have to type follow plus the checklist and you signed your name with the date that you acknowledge the receipt of this and that it's very clear because always in writing is always the better way and options so that's that's where for me personally I think there's a lot of opportunity for the public to have more clarity around these processes okay in look let me I guess the the main here that I want to ask questions about is this issue of clarity because we are now eight years removed from when the Tim to bill legislation was adopted and I still get phone calls from parents who say that superintendents are not following the law. All. And that when the parents and and and you intervened on a few situations to help clarify I think even sent a memo at one point to clarify some things but there still seems to be a lot of confusion here eight years removed we and and parents are fighting these battles they have full rights to this opportunity for their children but yet sometimes superintendents are just not wanting to follow the law. And date date choose to say and they passed the book I mean frankly a lot of times they point the finger you and when I call you and you say well that's not what I told them. and then when the parent gets back with the the the superintendents superintendents as well that's what I was told by someone down at that office. And that they are getting parents sometimes are getting different interpretations from different people within your office. So this I think goes back to this issue that Senator Irvin was referring to is this confusion in any thought any time you're going to have a a large manual like this there's going to be confusion what what is being done and what can be done to help make sure that every superintendent every athletic director but mainly the superintendent sees these rules the same way that and not just based on their cookie cutter example in in again that's a great question and like I said earlier we have mandatory means that beginning of the year what they're required to be in our meeting so we can train Neal and put the rules in front of the committee explained bill because I I and I think that's never ending I go out to collect all the time to across the state and I speak to superintendents there every year and all I cover mall fifteen NO will not go to all local to make sure I I hit him several times during the year which are rules because there is a B. colonel I think that's have the problem with me and you have to deal with home schooled there's a turn over there because we will have new kids coming over kids leave and sole again we have to train those people to the home school parents about our rules but they are given that opportunity and that's why probably thanking the from the book that's wind person interpretations any rule on they need to do is send it to me in writing and I'm going to I'm going to answer them in writing it's my role to help them understand rule in not only home school parents but all parents all cultures all athletic directors. Principals superintendents everybody. I'll come back to if you have other questions when it gets everybody's question representing you're recognized thank you madam chair of thank you for of having this meeting give us an opportunity to discuss this and lance I or the director I appreciate the opportunity to meet with you and doctor Walters as well earlier and so what I'm what's interesting for us is you know as I look at this you know it while well this is a broad based discussion about a lot of issues that's been going on for quite some time and addresses a lot of student athletes the flash point came here recently involved to school districts that are within my legislative district and so it is interesting to see you know hopefully this discussion will be fruitful and we can all come to a better understanding of of policies and procedures and so when I look at the case that has that we're discussing it seems like there's two kind of main issues and one of them is to address the policies and the other where is the rules I guess I can really boards of rules and procedures so let's talk a little bit about the rules first you know this generation is different than previous generations when we talk about athletes because if you identify yourself early on as as someone with athletic skill you're going to have a lot of opportunities to interact with people who could be future coaches at future schools you may or may not want to attend. And so that poses a problem now when I when I was growing up not only was the the the circumstances different my athletic ability was not. That caliber so I didn't have to worry about that but these kids do and you can be fifth and sixth grade and and you start working with a trainer and that trainer might also have a relationship with a high school that you may or may not want to go to and so that kind of poses some things that perhaps we should look at to modernize that rule for this generation of athletes who's had to deal with things that that we have not had and I know that that's happened before that's one of the reasons that that brought us together let if you don't mind let's talk about that and then I'll go into the other part okay. You know what I'm I'm I'm sorry representing well do you agree that perhaps maybe this generation of athletes is facing a different set of circumstances in previous generations and they could be hampered by the fact that maybe as early as elementary school they have started working out with trainers that may have relationships with high schools that they may want to attend or may transfer to and be deemed an eligible just by their exposure to that trainer. And I I think and I'm not gonna talk about circumstances but I will say this I thank. Our coaches out there know our rules. Okay I really do and I I think they're those coaches with those kids every day you know who's affiliated with their program okay I think some people made some mistakes and because again you know what we discussed earlier so I thank I agree with you what I don't what I will not be life was that it was that the students fall into what the student's fault he was at fault and that's why we've already had this discussion is a board of directors that we're gonna go back through and review all the rules. And and make sure that it's it's it takes care of the problem and and in that create a bigger problem that we dealt with. And I think that's right now I'm not talking about this specific case although that specific case because certainly apply to part of the situation but athletes are gonna have to deal with that you from here on out if they show athletic promise at an early age they're going to be introduced to a series of coaches and trainers all along their growth and it could limit their future opportunities if the family had to move to a certain school district and that school district happen to be coached by somebody who six years prior had been a trainer then that that could pose some issues that could it could blend these lines and I know that there is that C. sat form that they can fill out but that sees that form the if if the other school district didn't agree then you've got a problem and it was no fault of the cannot do as far as this other situation to since we brought it up I want to praise both school superintendents who did what was in the best interest of the child who did who had done nothing wrong both he and his family had done nothing wrong representing I really don't want to want to talk specifically about any student in particular but the problem I have mentioned any names which that they had come up I did want to bring that up so with regards to this issue though is that this is something that we're going to see more and more of in the future and so I would just encourage you to perhaps take a look at those so that we don't end up in a situation like this again where there could be problems or misinterpretations of rules yes Sir so if I can with the second item as we as we talk about let's talk about that seeks out for which is the changes school's athletic participation form it affirms that the student athlete was not recruited. And was not moving to that school district for athletic reasons correct and Does that apply for other things that a student might transfer for such as band or physics or. Whatever no Sir so it's just athletics yes and if a student is is wanting to go to a different school and my student is really good at the trombone they go wherever they want and there's no there's no issue of eligibility there's even even the transfer rules there's no July first deadline or anything like that they can do whatever this is this is just athletics you're still eligibility rules they still have to pass for still going to have a two point oh still have to have the number semesters age all that but you are correct okay. And Okay I'll leave it at that thank you madam chair yes well and and I think what can you page on page forty with the recruitment I mean I I agree we don't want there to be recruitment we want to make sure I think yard attempting to do that but we've had this discussion because of you know the newness of the society that we're living in right we pass legislation on name image and likeness and asking to have a trickle down effect we talked about that none of us anticipated that but I think it's a trickle down effect that's going to affect us and and when you read some of these you know it's concerning that maybe they have a job that work you know what if the high school athlete is working for centennial bank you then is a booster to that athletic program and yeah I don't know I mean I just I worry about those things because we're just in a whole new we're in a new phase and and really the non school cultural is not like a booster so that it's it's it's a little bit different but again they can tell you back here behind me the last three board meetings we've been talking about that and I am and matter of fact I even went to the Speaker to meet with him because he was a primary because I want to know what all that apply to the course right now they should hire it so he told me the person that he worked with that universe of Arkansas lawyer that kind of put it that Mr your check hired to do that so we were going to go plan to meet with them well right now Congress is told incident where you're going left. But there's no rules regulations and Congress is waiting for the NC go away do it means the delays waiting for Congress to tell how to do it because everyone told sole. The minute I didn't want to meet with us right now because there are no rules or regulations for the and I have really been on the collegiate level. We wanna make sure we don't if you saw what happened down in Texas number one quarterback in the nation last school year early just so we could goal. To Ohio state because you're gonna make a lot of money within an ideal thank you sign for about one point four million dollars we want to keep our kids in school we want to graduate from our schools but we also want to have that opportunity and so as soon as all that comes out we've we've talked about the last three board meetings and we know it's coming and we're trying to already get ahead of it is sentence so making explain everything because what we do not want to do is go ahead allow something in the colleges say well we can't recruit announcmenet we work we're very careful because we have a lot of really good college potential athletes in our state right now we will give them all that opportunity without penalizing them so as soon as that comes out then it will work on that and we don't want to prevent them from improving themselves like what representatives links that there's so many you know I think I wish more physical therapist could be in all of our schools now some schools just don't have the resources to have good physical therapist or weight training and coaching and I worry about kids getting themselves hurt because I don't have proper instruction on weight training I've seen not personally you know with my kids so I wish you know we had more of those physical therapist as registered volunteers in our schools just specifically for weight training and how to develop a a changing body because I think that's a safety issue but I think that's just the new norm and I think we're gonna have to wrap our heads around that because there is a trickle down effect and you also don't want to prevent a high school students whether they're an athlete or not or if that's an athlete from working a job to you know and that how that could be interpreted or whatever so I worry about that sometimes in the way that may be interpreted and then and then if you'll just the date the athletic release form I think it's something that people don't really understand or you know that's something that's also a form if you don't mind just describing that form and what that form is and why. Dotson a form that you all utilized yeah if you can briefly because I think it speaks to you what representative wings just asked about like on page thirty nine of the athlete release form is is come more problems the last two three years because you have a lot of coaches that have a side business doing training batting pitching and so forth so the form is just a to get everybody on the same page okay students from school a is taking taking pace aging lessons from students coach from school be. In both school sign it parents cited so they know that my student is taking lessons from head coach down the road and just make sure everybody knows who's doing what and if that kid moves go to that school that year then they're not eligible according to that after the release form because they're going to wear this scattered or person giving their private lessons is that also applicable to like a a you. If the AAU coach is a school coach it's always coaches okay it's not like a league coach it doesn't apply okay okay I'm gonna move on to more questions Senator Hammer you have a question. Thank you for that clarification Senator Hammer you're recognized. Now you're recognized thank. Open. Thank you afternoon it's so you guys. I want to talk about your structure for just a minute of how you arrive at the rules they're represented in the book I notice now you your the executive director and deputy executive director. Who do you answer to the the board that is I'm looking at your page sixty you answer to the officers there on the top of page six or who do you all answer to all twenty of them all twenty of his or her okay and as far as the formulation of the rules there in the book the process for determining the rules that are in the book does that come from the executive committee members or who does who is involved in the discussion of the rules okay will we go out to those activity districts across the state in April any school any superintendent or principal came propose a new rule at that activity districts Senator Hammer and a fifty one percent of the other people that attended that meeting and agree with that superintendent or principal that is a good rule any comes out of that activity district meeting and it comes to the governing body in August we're all five hundred of member schools can build on that rule to determine if they think it's a good will not. Okay and. I noticed that there no athletic directors. Or anyone in let's say you're carrying dual roles that are listed as officers or executive committee members wire why is it that given the fact or deal with athletics that you don't have any athletic directors that are made up of the decision makers great question we're activities association so we deal with band choir we deal with all of the assets of course athletic directors don't do they don't deal with activities thank you with athletics so again the principal and the superintendent of building or responsible for all the organizations in their school so that's why we're principals and superintendent organization but we have an athletic directors association in our office that has executive committee of fourteen different members two from each classification they get voted on by their peers to serve and we have officers and making referrals to the triple a board of directors are they can do it at their activity district with their all principal or superintendent. Okay and one of the things and is probably know news to you that I've that I've heard is that with the structure of how the rules are made that when it gets up to a situation where decision has to be made. And it's presented to you to make a decision which I'm I'm reminded of the phrase my dad used to have your term if you're doing your darndest don't I I see you guys as being in that situation sometimes. Would it be better if you had more power and more forty without having to be dependent upon the executive committee or the board backing you up for that you would have to get input from any of the superintendents if you is executive director. It in the box stops with you to where you're shielded from the superintendents and your board if you have to make a tough decision. Senator hammer and and dislike you all make tough decisions every day anyway I like our process. Ninety nine percent of our violations by our school or just self reported by the school once they know they made a mistake I think that's why we're the most democratic organization I think that's why they buy it because they get the board member rule they might not agree with every rule that they might get out voted because it takes fifty one percent to get the by law take sixty six percent to get a constitutional but I think it's fair I think they all get a voice and approved I like that is executive director I think they deserve a voice I just really administer the rules that they voting that's all our staff because we we don't get a bowl we do what they ask us to do by making sure and I think so that's why it's good for one et has just as much power to seven a school even older maybe eighteen times bigger than at school thanks to have won both third people always across the board and everything that we do and I think that's very important for the ill. To have that by and with our rules so they self govern themselves and so when they do make a mistake and you it's accident they forget to check the GPA or so much to what whatever the case may be they self report that they've broken I rules and I think that's a good situation for us and for our schools to be and that they know that that nobody's looking they just want to do what's right and I I think that speaks well of our superintendents are principles out there okay last question. So you have an athletic director who makes a decision he interprets or she interpret your roles and they make a determination about eligibility of a player. A superintendent. Disagrees with that athletic director and. Goes you know and and over rules that athletic director if that's possible at all for an athletic director it would seem like that would be a hard pill to swallow because they are on the front line with the student but if the superintendent has a loophole to where they can go around that athletic director make a decision that would over ride that athletic director I think that could would that not be demoralizing to the athletic directors or is that scenario. Possible without getting into the specifics of any one particular case that that's that's a good question Senator hammer and let me kind of explain it this way as far as a determining eligibility for students principals and superintendents can determine eligibility athletic directors cannot talk eligibility for those folks so they would not make those decisions. Billete unless they were an administrator unless I'm a principal and athletic director then I can make those decisions so determine eligibility since the principal is in the principal's office and has all the records for the student as far as our domiciled their grades they are the ones who get alternately determine eligibility for that student. All right of a barbecue thank you measure thank you will thank you. All right I mean go right back through Senator Clark president Lowery they represent wing and then I have okay did you have a question to yes all right let me go to Senator Elliot sure. It just went off I guess I'm sorry I'm going to just try to go pretty quickly here I'm just trying to be patient learned First of all I do want to say that has I don't think anything to do with triple a if anybody misinterprets what I say you just you can take it as a misinterpretation because it is not against athletics I was a jock in high school and I you can find a basketball I would try to balance the most the time minded have an Aaron I tried anyway so I am a lover and supporter of athletics however. Sometimes I think you're in a position of I don't know how you win because what I worry about more than anything is this culture that we have built around athletics and I don't think it's healthy in so many ways for example I I the fact that we have so many more rules round athletics than we do academics is not balanced to me that is worrisome and I think that comes from so much of the culture that we have and that puts young people in a position of responding to what we have determined as adults that we are going to reward. Because we're in a position will say we've got this kid could make blahblah millions of dollars out of one of the reasons for that is so the structure reasons he could make millions of dollars even lots of thousands of dollars in his own society so we're putting kids always in a position of getting out through athletics so I just want to say that in just ask us to think about. The culture is something we ought to. Well as well here my questions. When it can you ten point of time I don't means specifically but generally up to remember when this was not a real big issue is there a time you can kind of pinpoint maybe a decade or anything else that we a marker when this became such a big deal about athletics for example to the point that. I was going to ask about other activities and there is that I don't even need to ask questions I cuss and I find out if this other activities you just can go. Can you help me at all with trying to get a timeline or anything that happened that put us in this position of having this time home of rules and regulations you Senator Elliot that's not be the best question is made yesterday because. I agree with you the culture I think society has changed it mmhm. And and when you have many people I wish people would go to all state and all region band wire when we do that down in hot springs we have the most talented kids it's just unbelievable they could be on the voice whatever they want to do because those kids are sold counted in those areas and but there's athletic peas and I think it's always been important I it's very very emotional okay winning losing is very emotional I used to tell back then commissioner Campbell and then commissioner would ask commissioner chief. What they do is so much more important than what we do over in our building and we kids okay I mean they're they're responsible for the education of every student in this state and that's that's that's that's big guy that's that's thank you didn't matter to home school or other public school or nonpublic they're they're responsible for all kids in that role which shall be for them. But all the what we always kid about when it with those guys is what we deal with this so much more emotional than what they deal with and I don't understand that because again what you're saying. Academics and we're education based activities in education becomes first but a lot of people forget that out there because our society is put so much emphasis on athletics but again I think that's one reason why our kids do so well when you're involved it doesn't matter if it's banned require if FFA are athletics. The truth we hold on to a higher standard than most kids excel they want to participate no matter what that whatever they're above the is any can be activities it can be athletics. They do very well at it to to make sure they can participate and it's very important to amend its very emotional to their parents to so again I I I I can't really answer that question but that's a great question but it's always been emotional I know that yeah it's always been emotional and I think you know. When it became about money that really became a big issue as I'd live this through my own son for example who was a football player and a basketball player and any time something could have came up with football and basketball we could not get in the door just so happened he played an orchestra played the viola there was always room when when it with folks like that got together so I guess my messages as much for I think all of us we're driven by money I get that and I know it's a way out for a lot of kids but are we say we ought to go back back back and ask why why is it. That. You can do something else is important and you don't get rewarded that's a culture that we've created and I think it's great for any kid have an opportunity to make the money that I don't I'm not against that. But I just don't want us to be in a position where we change the culture they want somebody else to fix the outcome of it because I feel like that's what we are. but I want to keep on doing the job and my last question is how many districts have athletic directors just about every district has a leg Director now it could be larger schools because they have so many activities and I don't want to our schools they'll have a athletic director that's all were just that's their role now in smaller schools they might wear multiple hats the with the principles system superintendent even athletic director some some because again you're just not as many people saw but usually every school has an athletic director I don't think I'd ask a better question do you do you know how many who have athletic directors who don't teach who don't do anything else or just athletic directors that would be to the the bigger the top fifteen or sixteen schools because they deal with so many schools but. A majority of our one eight two eight three eight schools those athletic directors or a football coach or baseball coach or somebody else that's teaching two sections of math or science and then coaching an athletic yeah I understand that my graduating class at nine people and believe me I get it and it's to clarify the with the athletic directors who don't teach anything else. Con competently to that do you know of any schools who hi what do schools do If they are not in a position happen athletic director or they just so small it is just not a big deal and the coaches kind of take takes care of everything so the way it works or the principal or the principal okay all right thank you so much for being here. Senator Clark I may go back to everyone one more time and then or profit up. Thank you Belcher. The. I am glad that you have so many board members here to here this discussion. And you know if I take the time the code often name tag. Of. You know I'm just in Arkansas country boy who runs a business of but the fact is that I do have the name tag because ninety thousand people proximately of that I represent the ones that went to the polls elected me. And. We as a group you know I can go out on a tangent but the rest of the group or real me back in we as a group but it is also with the central problem House members problem and in order under to think that we're a bunch of rednecks. Of lots of the of the Department has I think make think we're much a rednecks and But. We are not dissenters and representatives. We are we represent the voice of the people of Arkansas. And this of. The let me say that I'm glad that my daughter when she school choice was in the band not a basketball player Because the fledgling band program that she was in that I'm very proud of I was very proud of that they started the band was the first one to an only one to a mental the first one to make all region band and you can imagine if that was an athletic program. They would want her to leave of but because it was banned that one no problem. But. In the you know with masks mandates and law the walls and and vaccine mandates laws because of a lot of questions in my mind that and I don't think in fact I know it's not just my mind over the past few months that I think that of. All ministers are going to find that are going to be asked a law in the days to come. Of about the will of the people of Arkansas. And about our walls. Since we have a school choice law. And I'm not gonna say we got it exactly right you know I'm on the architects of it but I'm not anymore than you all always get everything exactly right we certainly don't ever get things exactly right but we have a school choice law. Since we have one how do you limit what courses or activities or activities that students are allowed to participate in. When the law says they're allowed to transfer to another school district we don't say that about algebra or vendor chess club except for a. And I don't know any of the specific case I mean I don't know anything about us so I don't have any extra run but I'm just bringing up the law. And because in the law what we're really saying is there's no difference. Between this student who lives here. And this student who transfers and that's really what the school choice law say. Of and yet we are finding a difference and and with very good intentions. Our worries. But I'm just trying to figure out the. The legality of that. We look at that. And we look at that yes. And we thank you thank the to all those that all the world thank you senator Clark that we've looked at or been involved in is that that. Extracurricular activities or privilege is not a right it's a privilege because we hold you to a higher standard anyway so again it's not have academics is have and so what you're talking about school choice in all the court cases that I review an inmate of all day and that's what the the judges of always told us that one is a privilege you wanted to riding course academics is a rock and so we've always follow those rules well I just want us to say that. what we don't want. Recruiting I can also say that most legislators don't want to be annuals business and you know that I have backed you up on the issue of. The so a the just but I will end this with. We don't recruit. Yes Sir. Outside of that. I believe that the will of the legislature in the people of Arkansas. Is we want every student to be able to choice. And to have as much freedom as possible to participate in everything possible. Outside of recruiting yes and so and that you know that's the only thing that would bring us into your business of because we certainly wouldn't want to what would want to trap their if we can avoid of and I think that you all can be bye number magnanimous enough and specific enough to keep that from happening thank you manager thank you thank. I represent Lowery your back up thank you manager I am intended to follow up while ago by thanking superintendents that have been extremely cooperative in working with home school students some of hi NO one superintendent told me at one point that that he actively once he knew the families that had opted to home school he reached out to them the summer before the school session to let them know listen we would love to have your students come to our school participate in band choir football whatever it is so there there has been a lot of cooperation and I didn't want to to miss saying that I appreciate the conversation that we've been having about academics starting with senator Elliots comments I just happen to be of really when the meeting started thumbing through the manual and I and I happened upon the form the request for waiver of academic standards if a student has below a two point no a grade point average they can request a waiver for and I want to make sure I get the S. radiology or an alternative of learning. The supplemental a supplemental instructional program yeah yes and the the superintendent signs off on the principle school board president. And they have to attach whatever that supplemental instructional program is. Do you of do you confer with the department of education in any way to review the supplemental programs to make sure that these are really being done in accordance with our desire that the students are being properly educated meeting all their minimum of curriculum standards yes Sir you're recognized yes you're right we took over that program. The the state school board no state the board state board of education board of education. K. one do away with that program I will go back we had a one point six GPA back in those those days and also we raised it to a two point of. Ninety seven thank you so much everyone office because I member I had to go on from the Jimmy my my boss at that time Mr coach wasn't able to go so I had to go over in front of the state board of education and we inherited that that program we fought for that program the calls even when I was a principal representative Lowery I've seen kids that are great students I mean great students and also. They got family issues maybe a divorce. And that really affects that young man that young woman in their grades would. Drastically go from a four point down to barely pass anything and we found that with that supplement instructional program. They they they can go in they still got a pass for academic classes but they if they have below two point they can go in that S. I. P. program and they have to send us their programming we go around check also and they have to tell us when it is and it's going to be stuck it's it's a study hall really wanted this was certified teachers either before school or during their lunch period or after school or they got a zero peer to something like that where they can do it but all kids have to be able to go to the same time and so they have to get a hundred minutes a week of extra help from certified teachers and tell you the truth that have saved kids when I was even administrator because I think with your Leding still be involved with the coaches and other kids that they love and those kids around them during their time when they're low and it helps them come back so if I go in with a one point for all in this act of not going with that so the second semester to get one more consecutive semester because you only get to right you got approve a ten so you've got at least be a one point five she'll pass for anybody in the second semester you can you have to have a two point or you're or you're not eligible and it's been very helpful there's not there's not an easing of academic standards there is a supplemental program to help out because as as I was reading this I was thinking about one of my favorite movies coach Carter where he suspends the basketball team from playing until they get satisfactory progress reports and all the players this is outside the school day outside their classroom they can rub their classroom time but they have to get this hundred minutes a week and they can have a nun excuse absence or they're at aspen referral can be additional referral they can be suspended from school they're out so again it gives the ill for some teeth to it to make sure those kids coming to what they're responsible for it also helps save kids I really thank okay and there are eyes on this supplemental program other than the. Local school officials yes okay all right and just like all of our rules the state department goes out and yelled and they do a request with the. Thank you audits on schools and maybe just like a liberation volunteered we talked about it earlier they make sure all that's there and there's there following all the laws because you know if activity are instruction you have to go to have concussions heat illness bursts of sudden cardiac arrest every three years by law so all that's going to be in that folder and documented or they get flagged for not following the laws and same thing with our okay thank you for the clarification thank you manager I'm gonna elaborate on what he just stated and just let you know when I read my son's college essay. He wrote about how he was a small kid on the team and became kind of the in the P. of the football team because the coaches came to him and said I think we have a problem we have a really good football team but they're not gonna be eligible because their grades to play next year I need you to tutor them. And he did that my son tutored the football team and rate helped them raise their grades and they put down the weights and they picked up the pencils and that was his college essay which got amend to a lot of really good schools but it just shows how important that part of it is and how those kids wanted to play football but that my son found he was a he was a placekicker small kid that played soccer and desperately loved football to that became kind of an MVP just because he helped raise all those grades of all those kids that could be eligible to play the following year and they ended up going to the state tournament so far to the they made it to the playoffs but anyway I think it's such a great example of what you're discussing what you're talking about so that you have the ability to work with those players thank you for that question and highlighting that issue representive Lowery representative wing and then I have senator Hammer will close. Senator that was no violation of the non cultural your son I have. Okay this is the team that is that's great the I wanted to thank all the board members from Tripoli that are here today and really wanted to take a moment to thank you for all that you're doing for activities across not just athletics I've got children that have benefited as we talk about the culture what Senator really was talking about that have benefited from a culture of theater and drama and and benefited from the robotics you guys do the robotics tournaments as well we sanction Europeans yet okay yeah and so but if both of my children that were involved in those have gone on to scholarships and those non athletic so I I appreciate appreciate what you're doing I have one just one thing I wanted to ask about as we go through there is the the appeals process it is if I'm reading this right now I just want to tell you to tell me if I'm reading this correctly there's an appeals process of a school feels like it wasn't handled correctly they can appeal and if I'm right the directors the first level of appeal the second level of appeal is a up a portion of the committee is that a seven member committee a subcommittee okay board members yes Sir and then if if then you can appeal beyond that to a hearing officer which would be outside of triple a is that right it's usually a judge usually judge okay someone who's well versed in that okay and then the fourth level of appeal would be the entire board is that correct. Now as I read it and this has caused some confusion little bit and so help me understand is the appeals process just to affirm that the rules were followed not necessarily to perhaps change the outcome of the previous level so if I'm appealing save your decision or the subcommittee the the next group that would be handling that appeal is merely looking at it just to affirm that the proper procedures were followed not to say actually that decision was incorrect is that help me with that service call that do you know what we hear and once I make a decision now so they don't they don't do anything based on what I do or the rules what they do is whatever is presented to the the site subcommittee first it's a denoble here with a clean slate and so they hear both sides and then I have to I mean are you looking out rules but they also have to look at your the evidence is presented to all at that meeting it may make a decision now when a hearing officer or the judge comes in what they usually do they're all about rules okay and so they're gonna look at the rules to make sure that we follow and implement all rules the way they are right that's what they usually do but then the second the full board can come back in again the third or fourth level due process and then it says clean slate the noble hearing again we're back whatever percentage because again people can always add information because hardship for usually watch did not and and it's usually a lack of documentation we just don't have the past five writes a letter and say well we've got you know Susan was in the hospital in a coma for three months ended up but there's no medical documentation so we act we did not think they can go back and give us our office more documentation so we can make a better decision if they don't then we tell them that we try to help the okay because we're just Truffaut's weren't participation business we want kids to participate so we try to tell the parents what we need all the school what we need. To make theirs their children eligible so the next level always has the full authority to overturn the previous ruling okay it's called any noble here it's clean slate okay thank you manager thank you thank you for that clarification and senator Hammer you're recognized thank you do y'all have no just even if you have plus or minus the number of issues that you have to deal with that are non athletic versus those that are athletic because if I understand your role your over all activities of the school regardless whatever they are yes Sir I deal with something everyday with something besides athletics you're using is not as motion off okay but even today like of the they have exacted director of the. The pain organization Julia Reynolds and she called me she was having a problem so I I mean I helped her to date so every day in some mortgage ation I work with a lot of time to work with work for seat here with all their being to have so many dance and tell you truthful we sanction or grants we make sure the director over here site that then we cited second after they decided to make sure that we're just we're all on the same page out there so we're trying to do make sure it's fair for all kids okay. And and your comment while ago and I'm looking at the handout it's on page eighteen. The administration of the interscholastic events and it's number eight I ask you the questions about the athletic director making the determination of eligibility and you said the athletic director. That's not his or her job is that right. Unless delegated that that's correct now you got to be very careful in a school setting with with for about the grades and all that and that's one of the issues we got it board the principals office or the counselor's office but I think a lot of people the more people that will not because specially if you're larger school which I know where you're areas they're huge schools so they try to put multiple eyes on old old because they deal with so many kids in activities that they will they will they will all probably look at it just to double check each week each other make sure that the kids are eligible or leave it in your school district or whatever it might be but if there's a conflict between the athletic director. The Buck stops with the superintendent at the end of the day if I'm reading this rule right. Where site the school board yeah so superintendent can delegate that authority but if an athletic director makes a decision. And ultimately is going to be the superintendent at whatever point it finally makes it up to the superintendent's level yeah it's gonna be superintendent can be held accountable he still responsible for that's kind of how we look at that he still the superintendent that school and he's responsible for everything in his school district that's his role as superintendent of the school. Okay I think that's it thanks thank you. Thank you I really appreciate the questions of the members that came and participated I appreciate you all being here in answering all of our questions we've a lot of people watching online too so wanna shout out to a lot of lot of those people that are watching online because this is good public information and this process I just want to you know people do call us because we are elected by the public so they call us and we have to have this exchange and dialogue and so I think periodic updates are good idea that we didn't get to what's going on and then update from y'all about all the good stuff going on we didn't even get to that but I would love to have you know opportunities and calendars or something like that I know you have it on the website I mean we will direct people to that website just a couple different things that I think are good takeaways from my perspective I like where when I hand of of a member of the public a piece of legislation they really it's hard for them to read and understand and so I think you know there needs to be a little bit more clarification and listing and and the eligibility and I think signing off is a good idea I like how you put rationales in some areas of your rules I think that's helpful not every place has rational listed that you do in some areas and I would just recommend you probably try to put as many of those rationales in your rules as possible in different areas I think that would be helpful for the public when they're reading your hand booking your policies also I think superintendents need the flexibility because I've had them tell me that that we need those flexibilities and determinations and the seats out forms particularly is a our way of of providing flexibility but I also know that I don't want superintendents to be in a legal quandary or an ethical quandary if because of self reported violations or so forth. M. one other thing is investigative process I've had discussions with some superintendents I have said to me and I know we didn't go down this road I'm just giving you these my final thought I think there needs to be a standardized ation of any investigative process that's dealing with our children I'm from a per per perspective as a mom or as a parent I would want to know if my child was under investigation and what those standards would be and that's boundaries are and how that's going to be conducted and what to expect from it I think there's got to be some standardization to that I know you have a struggle with resources but one superintendent suggested that maybe third party investigations might be helpful I'm I know you have a resource issue but you know I think you know whatever we as a legislature can provide for you for resources I think it's important to strengthen your ability and in that process I really do because I think we need to rely on your organization for that process and particularly since you've got the appeals process within your body that investigation process there needs to be some consistency and standardization in my opinion and I think it would be helpful for you all and then you know I know also I love the the volunteer coaches and I think more information about that expressly because you have to have CPR instruction means a very good program and I just I love that and then I one suggestion from a superintendent that contacted me was some sort of a clearinghouse database of transfers they called it a clearinghouse. I know again resources an issue for you but that was a suggestion that I'm passing along from the superintendent who's watching today and then the final thing I would say to is internships I've talked to different for years I think any four year institution of higher ad that has a sports management program should have an internship program that works in your office okay that helps you. I think that that is one of my biggest take aways and I hope that your board that especially superintendents that are listening in here today will really take that and pursue that and work with our four year I mean I don't know if a two year institution has one or not but that would be great to if they have a sports management program that they need to have an internship and they need to be have somebody in your office assisting and helping but I I think transparency accountability is will increase I think databases and then being more forward about you have put in for a transfer how can we assist you know or you need to be in consultation not just referred to the triple a ham but because this is hard to read you know I mean if you get it we get it but the public does I mean the parents not going to get I'm I'm just saying aye it's hard for me to you know it's hard for all of us sometimes to look through these and go well I'm not sure how this what this means and does this refer back to this section so I think just making sure that in this. Anywhere where it says referred to that triple a handbook in consultation with your superintendent is going to be key so that your super they always have to go back to if it's the superintendent or the principle that it's always in consultation with that superintendent and not just up to their own interpretation of the policy and handbook I think that's a really important factor here and then I appreciate the appeals process and I think that you know it's there's a certain appeals hearing maybe not here and you know how that is so those are just my take aways and then I would just offer to you any resources that we as a legislature have you know what I would brainstorm about that and see what we can do to be beneficial within these processes to help you all with any improvements that you might need you know we have code revision that goes through all of our laws to make sure that there's no conflicting languages and different laws you know and that we have that process but and so I know that resources is an issue for you and so I would think through that for the members of the legislature I did have the pure of Legislative Research pull together what happens in other states and how other states are structured it's very similar to what we have here but we do have that hand out for you and that would be beneficial if you would like it to look at that and then the final thing I would just say I really appreciate your advisory councils that you have your advisory committees and you might think about you know just a stakeholder parents I don't know people that you know and vice for council parent Advisory Council or stakeholders you know and how that could be put in place and and I appreciate that you have that already in your by laws so and that might just be if we food for thought on on all the different things particularly those two are kind of in that space of volunteers or. With your organization so those are just kind of my take aways and like I said I just so much appreciate the discussion and then periodic updates I think are good and strong and healthy you know with us in the legislature because now we're live streaming in the public can ask questions and we can get feedback and just provide more clarity to these processes so that you know all students have the best opportunity to to succeed and and participate in all these opportunities that are afforded to them I'm because I think we're on the same page we want them to participate we know they get great great things from participating and we're all very passionate about that and wanting to see our state and you know succeed and kids improve in everything that they're doing and so I ask athletics and activities are just an internal part of that so I appreciate you being here today and I appreciate all the questions and the people that have attended either virtually or in person and with that we're turned thank you.