City, County & Local Affairs Committee - House & Senate

We'll call this meeting to order of the city county local of the joint meeting. Of. Today what we will be looking at is Errol study proposal. A two thousand twenty one dash zero nine nine. this was I had a bill that I had in law the last session and we ended up putting in an interim study and also we did a little bit of changing it when we did the at that time we're gonna look at the disposal of disposing of voter put solar panels. it is become a issue across the nation. And it will be an issue here before it is over within our state. in the Commons of permaculture. Mr thank you I'm good okay. All right we'll also get started we need to a motion for the approval of the July twenty seventh two thousand twenty two minutes. Your motion. Motion I got a second a second all in favor say aye. Those opposed say no. All right at this point what we'll do we're going to start with the item E. environmental impact of solar panels of solar power of Glen hooks up policy manager for of Audubon Arkansas well I met Glen back during the last session and and we've had several discussions since then and he made a request the date on this interim study to be on the agenda so clinic you would identify yourself for the record and you may proceed after that. I get afternoon seven five thank you for the invitation thank you committee members for inviting me today as always I am honored to be here in the presence of my name is Glen hooks I am a native of gravel ridge Arkansas and I'm policy manager for Audubon delta one delta is a regional office of the national Audubon society covering Arkansas Louisiana and Mississippi as you may know Audubon is the nation's largest bird conservation organization I would almost five hundred local chapters twenty three state offices forty one nature centers including one here in Little Rock and hundreds of thousands of members our mission at Audubon is to conserve and restore natural ecosystems focusing on birds other wildlife and their habitats for the benefit of humanity and the earth's biological diversity now as a fancy way of saying short that we care about birds and bird habitat and we work to preserve and protect them one of the ways that I bond does that is by advocating for strong clean energy options like solar we're here to talk about today. Strong clean energy options result in cleaner air healthier bird habitats and more resilient forests so you're frequently see Audubon at working with the state legislatures working with the public service commission's utilities and other agencies to help promote good clean common sense clean energy policy that helps us all. As a native our cans I'm very proud of Arkansas is excellent and forward thinking policies on clean energy this legislature and Arkansas Public Service Commission are to be sincerely commended for fairly and thoroughly exploring every angle of clean energy policy over the last several years I think legislative in PSE action have resulted in solar energy benefits that are being felt all over the state. And one thing I'd like to note in particular has a kick off here is that so energy in Arkansas is being embraced by not just environmental advocates like Audubon but by a state's largest corporations by electric utilities by cities counties and school districts I'd sure like to think that this is all because everybody cares a lot about birds and climate issues but I I recognize also that people are saving a lot of money when they're moving toward solar. The indisputable that a regulatory framework here in Arkansas and solar is structured in a way that benefits everyone's bottom line it's a huge net win for consumers for rate payers for businesses and for public agencies. So over the next few minutes I'd like to explore some of the benefits for home state here in Arkansas. So for most of our history we're talking that generate electricity we're talking about burning something right we need to burn something to generate heat to boil water to produce steam to turn a turbine that creates electricity. And sometimes I think would be that we burn to be oil sometimes I think we burn to be gas sometimes I think we've Burnaby coal that would help police produce electricity but it would also create immense amounts of air pollution. Princes will talk about burning coal that emits more than thirty hazardous air pollutants things like mercury things like lead cadmium sulfur dioxide nitrogen oxides particulate matters of these the kind of emissions that not only lead to climate change and but also lead to smog and elevated ozone levels and human health problems like asthma or heart attacks or neurological problems of early death a lot of cases it's been a big trade off really we need electricity I don't think anybody disputes that that's a huge positive to our lives but historically it's come with a serious downside in terms of pollution. So to give you an idea of how much pollution we're talking about about refer you to the handout that I was been distributed We talk about pollution from traditional power plants is not included in my hand out some of government statistics US government statistics from the US energy information administration of the first page of our state's electricity profile and you can note the missions for twenty twenty which is the latest year for which we have data. You can see those amazing emissions for sulfur dioxide nitrogen oxide and carbon dioxide list they're both in actual emissions and emissions rate so it's quite a bit. In the second hand out the running through the break down of these particular missions broken down by fuel source and also by the year from nineteen ninety to twenty twenty. I think would you be able to see their is that even though we're improving over time largely because of retrofitting our power plants with scrubbers and other pollution control devices and also just dispatching last coal power we still emit millions of tons of CO two and other pollutants. I should also mention that are large power plants of historically method you know hundreds of pounds of mercury every year as well which we on there was a known neurotoxin and not a kind of thing we really want in our in our environment. So I mentioned earlier that historically dirty put power plant emissions have been a harmful downside of producing electricity but when we deploy solar power we eliminate this downside we limit these harmful emissions we're harnessing the power of the sun that's free fuel to create electricity. There either way when we deploy solar energy we are burning anything without emitting any pollutant that means cleaner air and healthier citizens here in the natural state. Now I know that some of my fellow panelists are gonna be talking about this a little bit more soon in greater detail but I'd really be remiss if I didn't at least briefly salute the amazing economic benefits of solar energy here in Arkansas I have to residential ratepayers to businesses to cities to counties in the school districts just name a few I think that's largely because this legislature very wisely past the solar access act in twenty nineteen that's ACT four sixty four twenty nineteen. Because of that we've seen a gigantic boom in solar in the last few years here in Arkansas AT ACT improved on it metering system it raise the cap on the size of solar facilities it allowed for third party leasing of solar panels to create a mechanism by which nonprofits like Audubon and other government agencies could. Share the tax benefits and incentives for solar. So since ACT four sixty four became law I homeowners but adding sold in record numbers here in Arkansas cities like Clarksville in Fayetteville of invented invested in solar and they can save their repairs a ton of money Klasky county's government has gone solar the Batesville school district save so much money by going solar that they were able to give giant raises to the public school teachers Central Arkansas Water just cut the ribbon on their facility in cabinet the powers of the the facility solar just this week if you can read the news you see online college and the university of Arkansas investing in solar as well they're gonna be saving a ton of money on their power bills. So is made a boom in the solar industry as well with new companies opening with real jobs real payrolls increased tax revenue so there's a lot of uh. Net positives that are safe for the solar industry here in Arkansas I both in terms of the environment in terms of economics and one thing I think we should all note always is that when we're talking about producing electricity any form any form electricity production is gonna have some impact on our environment thank whether we're burning coal whether we're creating solar panels anything could have an impact that's just a fact from my point of view the realistic goal is not to have zero impact without electricity production the goal is to have the least impact with the most benefits I believe that solar energy falls into that category certainly when compared to some of the large scale burning of fossil fuels. So just to conclude my remarks one of the things I've often said in my almost twenty years of doing this kind of work is we really don't have to choose between a healthy environment and a healthy economy you know we can have both I think the Arkansas solar industry has proven that so it's my hope that this legislature will continue to wisely encouraged the department of solar energy in our state it's really good for Arkansas and I'm proud to see it happening here in my home state. Thank you for your attention happy to take any questions that you may have. Okay in before we get any questions here I of I need something I need to do representative Cavenaugh is not going to be able to be here today and what this day we have the road shows of youth leadership program of would you would you all please stand up. Maybe we don't have a hearing with notice of the. And later rule addresses then okay all right all right all right questions. US Senator Stubblefield. Are you up. As the mayor with the. mercy and you alert that was issued yesterday in California. I I'm not familiar that that that be happy to hear to learn more about Ferguson that that was issued by the governor yesterday in California basically what it says is they don't have enough storage to store enough energy from solar panels or windmills which by the way you're from the Audubon society you know that yes Sir and not just one is a good for birds and did not miss a position of the national Audubon society yes that they are if they're properly sited and so we work a lot with when manufacturers to properly cite them outside of important bird fly aways the definitely do hurt somebody but significantly less than say cats or air pollution. Are you aware that California shut down its nuclear unnoticed on this the server handout you've got you don't have a nuclear energy on the I wasn't asked discussed nuclear indigenous. One. I wasn't asked to discuss nuclear energy center but I'm happy to have a conversation with you about if you like well what I want to ask you is. How can United States if we shut down all of our coal fired generating plants in which I've been to a number of them and there's nothing coming out of the stacks but by April. I mean you can eat off the floor I've been to the scrubbers and the filters that have been stalled over the years. and aside from that you have countries like Pakistan and India and China they're building thousands. One thousands of coal fired generating plants with no filters no scrubbers nothing to take carbon out of. The pollution do you work this way. Around the globe in fact the United States. Do I think the pollution from other countries worked its way around what yes so we would be the only ones that would be suffering from brown house to break us because. The transition to these renewables in California is the main reason there having brownouts and blackouts amended dress a couple of things that if I may Senator one is that China for sure is is really you are ratcheting down there coal plant production production that's something that's happened in the last couple years they realize it's not good air quality for the citizens and they're they're moving in different directions I can't speak to every country that you mentioned but it's been a it's a it's a policy of the state of the country chatter right now to really ramp down the production of coal plants they were doing quite a bit as to your point that you know I've been to a lot of cold facilities as well over the years for sure there are quite a few hazardous air pollutants that come out of the smokestacks now a lot of things are scrubbed now that's really resulting resulting from hi I think a lot of good people putting pressure in the form of you know lawsuits and advocacy and so forth in favor of clean air that's why you have so for dioxide scrubbers that's why we don't have acid rain like we used to have because advocates said we need to clean up these plants but even so these plants copayment specifically omit upwards of thirty hazardous air pollutants as defined by the by the federal government now I would love to see of the trend of like is having here in Arkansas the trend of us increasing our renewable energy production why we are shutting down some of the larger coal plants as you are no doubt aware the two largest coal plants in the state of Arkansas now scheduled for retirement and by their entity power plants and at the same time energy is investing heavily in utility scale solar which I think is a good thing for Arkansas for air quality for human health so I definitely support that affect your questions. Are you Mr if you're. Well I noticed something follow this very closely that. Much of the solar panels put in across the country are put in in productive land areas land they can grow crops landed Cozart food. And instead of putting those in places where the land is really. Yes list as far as producing crops and food for our citizens they put it so we're losing tens of millions of acres every year to solar panels and when you combine that. With the video Jeff Bezos the Bill Gates buying up these other billion buying up millions of acres of farmland what do you think we're going to get our food when the state. I think it's worth pointing out senator that in leasing Leding provides and selling easements farmers selling easements to solar companies is an additional revenue stream for many farmers across this country including state of Arkansas I should also mention while I'm not at all an expert like you are from gross I I've missed that I do know that there's a beneficial uses there's a lot of times you can put solar panels on on farmland and still grow crops. In addition to having solar panels I think what we're talking about largely at least in the way I understand the question Sir is that should we allow American farmers to maximize the use of the land and maximize income streams if they want to sell an easement and allow solar panels on their phone on their farm they should be allowed to do that they should encourage to do that I think and so I except for private landowner wants to do that kind of thing I supported and I know some of my co panelists we talk a little bit more about some of the agriculture policy but that's my initial take on your questions the you have no problem with this importing most of our food at some point the future from from other countries I certainly didn't say that in the statement of your questions. What questions or. We get most of our solar panels I do right now it's it's from China as I recall. I think it's largely because they've made a government scale investment in research and technology and development of solar panels we're we we used to and which within our starting to do again which I'm encouraged by we're going to really jumpstart American solar panel production the way used to be it took is got takes a government level investment to do that I think that's what's happening now with the recently passed legislation so it wouldn't be because China has eighty percent of the palladium and and Kobol in the world yeah I trust your statistic on that Sir. We're. That's a statistic that they could they have most of the placement cobalt is used makes solar panels. Senate okay I trust your statistical that's to so. So we're not relying on them for drugs now we're relying on them for solar panels to hate our country. you know we're importing some solar panels from China right now I think recent legislation is turning that around that we're gonna see more American jobs invested in not only making solar panels but also deploying and installing solar panels which is I think exactly the right direction for us to go yes Sir. All right some questions later on thank you Mr chairman. Mr hooks yes Sir. As you know the president originally of. came up with the defense production act with all mining. Good against I missed the first having trouble hearing that just that just have that first sentence I get a little closer thank you the better yes it is okay anyway you just signed in the the defense production act in order that they're putting batteries in and your car's in the production and in in the they're talking about forty percent of that will come in the continental United States. Well that's a lot of mining is about to start happening in we're also creating by mental issues and mining do you agree certainly as I mentioned in my remarks or I think that any time we your produce electricity or do any sort of industrial work we certainly have an M. and the impact on the environment my goal is to make sure that we have at least as little impact on the member is possible with the with the greatest amount of benefits and so when I'm thinking about the impact of mining or whether I'm thinking about recyclable solar panels or any of the things that we're going to talk about today I have to not just think about that in a vacuum after think about it in comparison to our other options the things we've been doing for decades what is more harmful is it more harmful to do option a or option be certainly we had a lot of harm from some of the things we've done over the years of our history now if we if we have some some mining problems I think they definitely need to be addressed we shouldn't ignore them we should compare them to what we're doing now and and and measure the harm yeah right now mining permits for about ten years to receive a mining permit under this defense production act it that might change but they're also talking about getting on federal properties to which the mind the these saw of heavy metals that are needed and batteries and also solar panels and I believe will be creating environmental issues when we start this heavy production. And to. In two of batteries and also solar panels. Okay okay I do as you like to response I didn't I didn't know there was a question but I'd be happy to respond to Sir You know I'm haven't of the autumn on delta and and and just myself for sure I think what what I will say to what you just said is that. You have been doing this for as a mention for almost twenty years and I've what I've come to realize that everything has an impact there's never a perfect thing at all I'm trying to make sure that we have the best options possible so as things develop year after year and we have new ideas and new technology the young cat on the Audubon society and environmental community to weigh things fairly and to look at everything and say this is a better option or this is a worse option and way in a few participants in the democratic process like we all have so I'm not here today to say anyone form of energy production is perfect everything has its flaws I'm looking for the best options I hope you are as well okay thank you of. A representative right you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman I think at some point in the meeting we're going to talk about recycling solar panels but I think it's it's relevant when we talk about the environmental impacts of solar power so when I ask about it In July the Los Angeles Times put out a really lengthy piece about this problem that California's finding themselves and as you know I'm sure in the early two thousands they really push residential solar panels adoption of that I think the they subsidized it heavily in order to encourage adoption and now that these the first wave of solar panels are reaching the end of their life cycle what they're finding out is that only about one in ten are finding their way to our recycling plant and that the rest of the number ending up in landfills and the report goes on to say that there's a lot of potential for contamination of groundwater because of toxic heavy materials such as lead selenium and. cadmium I'm not sure if I pronounce that right but they the report says that the national renewable energy laboratory estimates that it costs roughly twenty to thirty dollars to recycle solar panel verses one to two dollars to take it to a landfill so it I guess I'm curious is your is your organization concerned about the potential of contamination of groundwater as a result of so as we have more adoption of solar panels them ending up in landfills yeah at I think that's an excellent question I'm really glad you brought it up because I wanted an opportunity to talk about this so thank you We have a we have an industry that's certainly changed a lot in the last twenty years you mentioned two thousand one two thousand two era solar panels they've only got more efficient only got more technologically advanced what hasn't caught up quite yet is that is the industry to recycle solar panels right and I think that's the kind of thing that is emerging right it's a problem that needs to be dealt with and certainly I a an area in which a lot of uh the solar panel industry in the recycling industry is spending a lot of time and energy right now trying to figure out this problem my understanding that solar panel modern solar panels are more than ninety percent recyclable right and we definitely would need to look into some some ways to either encourage or require that solar panels be recycled you mention a statistic that one in ten makes it to the soap recycling facility in the rest going to the landfill that's the wrong direction in my estimation so what I would support and I would hope this legislature would definitely support is looking into ways to make sure the to encourage this the recycling of solar panels to support an industry that's able to do that and I think this micropayments are gonna talk about this a little more detail but one of the encouraging things right now is that if you're talking about the lifespan of a modern solar panel is at after twenty five or thirty years when their warranties expired typically they still can produce about eighty percent capacity so this mean they automatically going to the landfill it means that they are producing a lesser amount of the warranty is over so what the reason I bring that up is because we have some time to fix this problem it's and recognizable problem is something I support I was not out of bounds as a recycling support Apperson recycling support initiative totally do that I think working with each other and realizing that We have a little bit of time we should take the time to fix the problem but I think it's the it's industry both there so industry and the recycling industry that's going to be the one to come up with the best ways to do that rather than you know government and this particular respect figured out exactly how to do it. There are a lot of really smart people doing a lot of really good research right now on how to do that best and so I'm I'm gonna continue to pay attention that I certainly hope you as well what do that because it's something we should pay attention do not ignore well and again maybe we'll address this later but in your opinion is again a do you think it's gonna become commercially viable to recycle the solar panels or do you think it's going to end up being subsidized by the government like so much else at I think it would be commercially viable but I certainly my my opinion is just a lay person on that particular issue I think it's a it's a market as you mentioned more more solar panels to be deployed certainly here in Arkansas and around the country so there was there's definitely a business opportunity there that's emerging is only going to get more productive okay so I think so in Lynn last question is your organization doing anything or what steps are they taking to make people aware of potentially toxic materials in their solar panels and making them aware of the need to recycle them and not just take them to a landfill where they may end up contaminating groundwater yeah that is not something that I'm specifically doing as I mentioned you know we were having this kind of real boom in solar in Arkansas right now we have I think at least twenty five or thirty years before this becomes a gigantic problem here in Arkansas I don't want to wait twenty five or thirty years that is really just an issue that that people are starting to talk about in the last year to so we had a conversation with chairman fight about it earlier this year and so I'm learning more about it I think my organization will learn more about it will support positive efforts to make it not only commercially viable but also educate Americans about the right way to handle the solar panels much like they handle you know other other toxic things that they need to get rid of so Is and it's a long education process we can be part of that okay yeah well if you're if you're encouraging everyone to adopt these you may want to encourage not determine landfill thank you for that thank you Mr chairman. I represent Ladyman you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman. Mr hooks I know we're here to talk about recycling of solar panels or working on over here on the waste issue. but. Senate you talked about other forms of energy and the pollution associated with those different types of power production I want to talk about that a little bit for ask you a question I worked at a coal plant I've done the air emission reports for coal plants natural gas plants when when farms and petroleum plants. And there are emissions from that but when we look at any form of power production we need to look at the total environment and we need to look at that clear I when you make a statement like immense pollution from his sources. I think that's taking a little bit for use in these additives to make it I mean it sounds worse let let's let's look at the facts when we do this we talked about of these panels going into a landfill. And I'm not clear I haven't studied this on what heavy metals are in those panels but I know there are heavy metals in there selenium I'm pretty sure I don't know about lead cadmium. These are hazardous materials hazardous waste so would they go into a landfill and they would contaminate the water. That is a much bigger problem than contaminating the air because the dispersion in a manner is safer than water. So we we we need to look at this as all of the above and look at it clearly because when you talk about solar panels as a sub floor mentioned. You're using a planned. So let me ask you a question okay if you closing out of five hundred megawatt coal plant. How many acres of solar panels does it take to replace that bothered me what's yeah that's a question that obviously I'm not prepared to answer this it takes five hundred acres of ten okay thank you okay so. That's a lot eight years so we have to look at that that's a cost. In recycling would be a cost is economical to recycle these panels yes we have the capability to do that but is it economical. You know we're looking right now recycling clear fuel rods but we don't know whether it's economical. That raises another point when you're looking at all the different types of production. Needs to be on that list. The cleanest energy out there it produces water. In the fourth generation the nuclear does not have no known issues like the old nuclear so it's definitely something we need to look at in. When we talk about so and. And I'm not opposed to solar and wind and the snow like any but I'm not but we cannot operate on solar and wind along. Because it yes California blackouts right now because they don't have enough base load to do that so let me ask you questions okay what percent. Let's just look at Arkansas is an example what percent of power produced in Arkansas should be should come from solar do you have a answer to that US me which which percentage points from sore yeah. At the way I can answer that I think is as much as possible. I don't give your number I'd be pulling out of my so what's possible what no you I said as much as possible to the sponsor question you said how much I say as much as possible. Okay so let me ask you one more question Mr chairman for might. should there be a limit. On the amount of power produced by solar panels and wind and there's well so that we don't have blackouts like California's having today. Should the state settlement on that at I don't think the stage settlement on that no Sir. So you're okay with if we have blackouts that's absolutely not what I said but I what I am saying is this I support responsible development of solar and wind energy and other renewable types of energy technologically it's advancing in leaps and bounds I'm not saying tomorrow let's go a hundred percent so or I'm saying responsible development as we ratchet down fossil fuel production and move toward a stronger renewable energy future I think we can get there I don't think we're gonna get there tomorrow but that's the goal you know we're but it can be tomorrow if you shut down a thousand megawatts. A power from coal or natural gas or whatever you got to replace that and if that's base load you can't replace it with intermittent load Senator I I am. I mean I'm trying to answer your question as I understand it so I hope I'm not coming off slip I I really am trying to answer your question. I think in in my career of of working in energy and I respect that you've had a career working unity as well I think I've taken a responsible stance very purposely may consciously of being saying let's not shut something down tomorrow let's be really responsible as we transition to different sources of fuel I mentioned in my opening remarks that there a couple of large coal burning power plants operated by energy I in Arkansas that are scheduled for retirement I was involved in that effort to move those to retirement a few years ago and they are retiring in twenty twenty eight and twenty third that that settlement was in twenty eighteen as I recall so that is a ten and twelve year. Pass to where we're getting to where not tomorrow but a ten to twelve year path which I think is the responsible way to do it and ask your larger question I'm not trying to turn everything off tomorrow I am saying that we need to commit as a legislator and as a people to cleaner sources of energy we're doing it in a way right now in Arkansas I that think it's very good for solar I think it's very good for ratepayers I think it's very good for businesses and cities and counties and school districts across the state now if they're going to be some problems that we can address count me in I will be work I work with anybody in this room on on dressing actual real problems for sure and there will be a problem but I think it's a net plus and and you know the University of Arkansas and and Walmart and lying College as Basil school district all those places I mentioned I think agree with me that solar is a really good option for them not only in terms of saving them power skimming money on their electric bills but also crosses the state creating jobs increasing tax revenue so I think there's a really DYS a really good development for Arkansas and I'm going to continue support well I agree with you that so has its place and I'm not saying so as bad but we have to look at this with clear eyes one more question you mentioned that the disposal of panels is twenty years down the road. I don't think that's the case if we have solar panels in California that are wiping out right now. Are you aware of any law that would stop them from shipping across state lines and put in a landfill Arkansas I'm certainly not aware of that but it's on my co panelists may be able to answer that question a little bit better I was focusing my remarks on solar panels in Arkansas and modern solar panels Sir and so we're really experiencing that boom in just the last few years I think is ratcheting up so there's gonna have a long lifespan we have the luxury of having some time to address this problem properly for the state of Arkansas and and if there's efforts to to do that I'm going to be involved in it as much as I possibly can because I support and making sure that these things that go to the landfills and we we recycle but I also trust that the solar industry recycling industry very smart people right now are are working on this problem very diligently and I will I want to know what they think is the right thing to do rather than just me saying Hey you should do it here's how there are smart people working on this right now and I'm I'm I'm looking for the solutions. Thank you for your service. Yes at this time we have the Ralph Joe's of use leadership program here do we not. Please stand if we do. Representative Cavenaugh is not able to be here today but she wanted to make sure you that you all recognize we're glad to have you here today we hope it gets a little more exciting here. All right we have four people in the queue right now and I would we're running a little over right now so I would ask that you shorten your questions if you can and What no we're not ready for you all yet no. And if you would short answers if possible and next up is represented baby you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman one I want to thank you for providing the information that shows what a great job Arkansas industry's doing in reducing the emissions that being released in the Arkansas layers and. Our way so I appreciate that information welcome. One thing that I was looking for in in your presentation is going to talk about the benefits of a particular type of energy I would also expect a little bit of concern from Audubon related to loss of habitat. And also Abyan death due to the lake effect or other things calls by the solar panels I understand that that is less than maybe a trans you know a power plant and and and the actions there but right now at this level of implementation in the state hello a coal fired power plant takes up how many acres on on average we depend on the size we have here that are eighteen hundred megawatts we have over here that are less than five hundred megawatts comment like land area that you utilized I mean we we benefit in in in the cross area from a new eight hundred acre. power plant the solar power plant that's going to end it is going to be a benefit provide benefits but right now the technology is not at a point where replacing anything. we're actually taking up land it's it's replacing some of the output from our our current facilities so would also think that all of an Audubon would have you can't say the word responsible and and and placed in in certain areas but the impact of of this on habitat depletion and and you know because we're we're not replacing transmission lines or plants right now we're just adding to the capacity in the system so it some point you know we we have to define that word responsible and I think that's what some of my colleagues were we're asking a question regarding I also congratulate you guys that what you're the first one hundred percent renewable nonprofit in the state with your thirty five kilowatt plant. and my question for you how is your organization funded. Howard as Audubon society funded yes yeah we we see private donations certainly I we also membership organization and we receive grant funding from from from foundations and must make it much like a lot of other non profits okay so solar energy. Receive some funds from solar energy and and some of those provider hello trouble here any questions and receive funds from solar energy and some of the providers no not necessarily we have a solar array at their and our our center that powers everything but we mostly just a you know there's number of foundations around the country that are interested in bird conservation also clean energy work and so you know like any other nonprofit we apply for grants and some of them we receive. I still would like you to maybe address the habitat depletion as spect of the solar farms yeah thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that as one of the things that Audubon society does that I'm really proud of and it's not my particular work for some of my colleagues really work on habitat issues we you know we work closely with the game and fish commission we work whether it's state agencies on rehabbing land we do have a lot of native plant work that we do around the country were farmers around the state trying to increase the use of native plants across Arkansas and so I think that on way I should answer your question is if it is that uh Audubon is committed to preserving bird habitat and protecting birds and in this in this country and this state for sure at the same time we also recognize that a lot of threats to birds one of them being a lot of pollution from a certain dirty power plants. Try to make sure the best use of of habitat and also figuring out ways to protect bird and bird habitat we've come down on the side of that you know really working on clean energy issues helps birds quite a bit you know you know there's different opinions in this room I'm sure on the causes of climate change the existence of climate change we believe that climate change is a real issue and one of the ways that we can combat that in a way that helps birds bird habitat is by promoting clean energy you know that doesn't have the kind of emissions that we've been putting from coal power plants from gas power plants and others and so we work on preserving habitat right we also work on installing or see me advocacy and and policy work that would allow more clean energy be deployed at same time so I think we I think if I understand your question the best way to answer it is we are concerned about habitat we do a lot of work to expand habitat for birds and at the same time I think it's also possible to work on clean energy to help spurs that way. Thank you thank you Sir. Senator Solomon you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr right here really intrigued by a few things you said I'm sorry the folks left I was going to try to make it exciting for. you talk. So you're talking about a the trend of government support for the industry correct. It sounds like the trend that you're describing is for the government to invest through incentives and other ways for this industry yes that's correct that was a big part of the inflation reduction act as a lot of incentives not mandates a lot of incentives to do a good clean energy work round country yes for that's correct exemption that yes that's a fact is a okay so and we're competing against a communist socialist country who is now the leading producer in the nation. Are these products is that correct if you're asking if we're competing with China then yes the answer is yes yes and so we're going to compete with incentives that this sounds like that's really a struggle for a capitalistic society to come out on top when we're competing with that group senator I have. And I again I don't mean to sound flip I just want to ask a question I'm you know it in today's political climate and certainly you know it and in this chamber I would think more people would be more in favor of incentives and mandates and so the inflation reduction act I think kind of walk that line pretty effectively on the clean energy site given that's where I would disagree with you there are you incentive is essentially that's what caused all the inflation is the incentives billions of dollars that we're putting into this let me know but change lines here So you talked about a time line also you know one that's one of the problems is we're trying to decide how quickly we can do this I think most people agree this is a viable good thing for our nation to look to do the things you're describing Sullivan so as a yeah so what's the time line you're working on the time line I'm working on is largely science driven by Audubon is a science driven organization and I've been down here this capital. I want to cut it short what's the time line you're working on it seems kind of hard to do since you have no outcome twenty one that you were asked the question what percent should we get to what well as much as we can so if you have no our goal our target House possibly come up with the time line well as I was trying to answer questions or illness if I could do a little bit more quickly you were saying three of an organization we pay attention to the idea that we need to switch completely off of fossil fuels as quickly as possible most of the sciences say that we really need to reduce our emissions by you know six eighty percent or more by the year twenty thirty or twenty thirty five and that's where I'm I'm kind of gauging that as a goal if you're asking of a year things change over time but we're the goal is to reduce harmful emissions that are driving birds to extinction driving habitat to extension and we're doing it we want to fix that in a way that makes sense environmentally scientifically and also economically and I think so industry in Arkansas is a great example of how that can be done. Thank you thank you Mr. All representing the group you're recognized. Thank you I will have to statements but I think it's already been covered I think the concern about the. Building chat instead of America is a great one bed since your we're here more to talk about environmental I just look to put solar on my house Shoulder only works when the sun's out so when we're going to have solar to help us with the black counts we're gonna have to which store that which is batteries on building my house Generac Tesla both sold better bankers of other manufacturers. Is there any thoughts about the concern of that on our environment when those batteries going to our landfills in the minerals that are being man for those batteries and all that if you if you give any thought to that at all I have and other people who are smarter than me have given more thought to it you know I and I think some of my my parents are coming later can tell you a little bit more about that specifically hi I do think that it's your raising some important things you know I will say that solar works on a cloudy day so it works on a snowy day solar work so it doesn't work at night as well for sure right but there's a lot of that. A lot of production goes on in it beyond noon on a summer's day for sure so at the the thing I heard in my early years working in this kind of industry is Hey this is intermittent you know what do you do when the sun goes down there's no way to fix that well the way to fix it is exactly to talk about battery storage and both on hold residential level and on a utility scale level and so that technology is advancing by leaps and bounds so it's getting to the point now where you can have enough battery power store notice power from your solar during the day to run everything at night not having that the problem anymore so I heard that this is a problem years ago that problem is getting fixed. Are there some environmental impacts absolutely just like I mentioned in my remarks is always something right no matter what we do is gonna be some impact I want to minimize that impact as much as possible but I'm glad that you're recognized that it's a problem because I love everybody in here recognized problems with solar problems with winter problems with anything to work with work together with some fiction but doesn't mean we get rid of the entire industry written order say we can't do it because or some small problem we fix the small problem and we getting in my but when you say seller which knows and when it's cloudy it diminishes bat a tremendous amount of ship so the land area and we're going to do with batteries that's even more area is going to be taken up and more impact on landfills when you bring in statistics you didn't bring assisted cities on here first of all I think nuclear holding are you also didn't put hydro sign on there at all and I was in when I was asked and also you didn't put the to tasting so what it what the environmental impact was of manning in manufacturing the solar panels so I'm kinda I don't like it we just get one side of the argument we just benefit you we need to look at the whole impact sure thank you for your time sure represented here just the last thing I'll say that and I respect you and your position and thank you for sharing all information on me I was asked to come and talk about the environmental benefits solar power and that as a one line description so I didn't talk about nuclear night and talk about some of those stuff but I wasn't prepared to do that nor was I asked but I'll be happy to come back any time to do that if the advanced please the committee. Why not right. Thank you Mr chairman Sir Mr Oakes. In the beginning let's just say person wants to put this in our house. What is the cost percentage wise to the people that are actually living in that home. And question two down the line let's just say ten years or something like that something County files up and they they you know they have this in the top of the rules. What did they do to get that Allah and they've left a big hole in their house I I just I wondered about this for a while and yeah I know you forgot answer sure that will representative at if I may there are parasitic coming up after me from the solar installer industry and who do this for a living I might if you're if you're alright with the deferred to them on that because they can give you the proper answer I would speculate a little bit. That are thanks to. Okay representing Hammer you're the last question. Thank you Mr chairman if you don't want don't want your cannot answer these you want to kick it down lines five me but let me go and get him out there the this is a sheet that was attached your letter correct it's it's a spreadsheet with all the numbers on yes that's when the US energy information administration federal government yes okay and in my interpreting correct if I see that the numbers reducing of from where they started keeping data until twenty twenty that as far as numbers moved and the directions that you would feel are the right direction they are moving in the right direction I did mention that in my remarks inserts okay obviously because of pollution return fence like scrubbers and that the lessening the dispatch of coal power okay so the numbers are substantiated by the fact that there's improvement in the industries that are listed on the sheet to become more effective efficient and environmentally friendly is that is that accurate statement yes they are required by law in lots of cases or or legal settlements to install certain pollution control retrofits and that have done so they comply with the law okay and do you know with regards to the solar industry is our percentage of the energy pie that you have to get in order for the industry to be sustainable and be able to survive if it's a matter of everybody working together to get to the common good which is better environment safer environment what percentage of the overall energy pie do you have to have a piece of in order for the solar industry to be able to survive to be sustainable without tipping the scale to Farquhar we had a Texas experience would be vulnerable are you are you just so I understand the question are you asking how much of the energy parties to be sold or so that they could survive without any sort of government subsidies of Dressel well I mean the list and as was pointed out by the representative well go it doesn't have like you know the nuclear the the other forms that he mentioned I mean there's got to be a piece of the pie that you that you have to have in order to be able to survive as an industry. If a prize a hundred percent and Coles got ten percent of that and the other ones have different percentages his or his or what's the point that soldiers going to be happy that they've got enough to survive and all the other ones be able to survive too so we're not to depend one way or the other yeah and I I thank you for giving me the opportunity to begin your question to kick this down the road a little bit okay I have that if not I would defer to the solar companies that are here in the audience that okay so far thank you they Mr. We we. The. All right thank you Mr chairman thank you everyone it's. At this time we'll have Larne a Walter and she's executive director for the Arkansas advanced energy association and yes three over of. Colleagues with her today in we would ask the. You all come in and introduce yourselves. For the record and then after you get through we have an opening statement proceed with it if you would. Please turn on your mark there Larne yes seven thank you Mr chairman of the committee and full disclosure I feel honestly bad for Glenn and he kind of got thrown to the wolves on some some topics that are outside of his purview back but I'm hopeful that we can clarify some of that up for you all here today again my name's Lauren Walter been and I'm the executive director for the Arkansas advanced energy association we represent over a hundred members both private and publicly from solar developers to energy efficiency companies even to private companies who are becoming body into these technologies so Walmart for example is one of our members that's engaging in these technologies I'd like to start by introducing our other panelists and subject matter experts first immediately to my right I have jade in music and she is the co founder president and contractor for Arkansas solar powered cable speak more specifically to the recycling components of of solar panels I'm miles of Adam ness who is in business development with integrity partners Health illustrate the existing programs in place that run some of these recycling processes also have heather Nelson finally who's the co founder and president of a steel solar in the interest of time I don't know that heather is is planning to provide testimony but as a business owner in this space you can certainly address some of the questions that you all have already asked your today heather also serves as chair of our of our board of directors so I don't know that she had a choice other than to be here today. So for your reference I think there's a lot of things for us to touch on today but I'll give you a small piece of of my background as it as it relates to solar I previously worked and and public affairs primarily representing farmers mostly row crop and poultry but I started in this role just over one year ago after noticing the increased adoption of solar energy production among those producers Arkansas growers now see this technology widely as a tool that they can utilize which allows them to take control just one of their inputs I know many of you represent rule farm communities across this state and so I don't need to explain all the different variables that a farmer can't control as far as their inputs go but this is is one thing that they can take control of their choice to produce power helps reduce the significant amount of risk there are you forced to absorb in order just to grow as a symbolic quality food supply that was mentioned by Mr Stubblefield earlier again this takes more of a free market approach by giving not just farmers and ranchers by consumers a choice to produce their energy I myself am a fifth generation farmer family and we're actually putting solar on our farm right now even as a Republican I saw that this was a bipartisan issue and ultimately helps provide our Kansans like my dad as a farmer with affordable energy so thank you to the members of this legislative body who have enabled net metering and ultimately help to save our cantons including our farmers and ranchers money sometimes this can even help keep them in business as farmers I would like to address I made a couple notes earlier while Glenn was speaking when when Mr Stubblefield was was concerned about taking you know I don't know Arkansas has some of the most fertile farmland in the nation agriculture is our state's largest industry we're certainly very proud of that. but I would say that you know forty percent of the nation's corn crop is proof is used to produce ethanol so if we grow ninety million acres of corn across the U. S. thirty five million acres of that is used to produce produce or that at all and I know that you as a legislative body have no interest in telling our farmers what they can and can't grow what's most profitable to them and so I think you know in the same way that we wouldn't tell farmers that they can't grow corn you know I think they're interested in and it and looking into to growing solar and I think it's that we've seen that on the farm. also the issue of of China was raised and I would certainly agree with that you know are rice farmers unfortunately have to deal with illegal subsidies that the Chinese government gives to their farmers which makes it very hard for us to compete with them and so I think it's good that through the IRA were seen an investment in our to domestic manufacturing of these products so that we don't have to account for those illegal markets that we currently can't compete with in the future because we certainly would prefer not to. Okay so I'd now like to move into just what net metering is generally this can get a little bit complicated so I want to just give you all an overview for your reference and a recap from some of your previous actions so based on the ACT four sixty four thank land already mentioned a customer can generate all or part of their energy needs behind the meter through a personal solar array and then export any surplus energy that's not consume to back to the grit under the current meet method of net metering which was selected by our friends at the public service commission if the net metering customer export surplus energy to the electric grid that metering customer is given a kilowatt I'm sorry I credit in kilowatt hours. That's on their next to bill this one to one credit is then used to offset any future uses that that customer might have so right now this one to one rate structure can be grandfathered or frozen in time for a period of up to twenty years so you're going to come in and invest in this project you need to know for the life of the project what your return is going to be I mean that's just good business and good policy And then depending on the size of that project you know is how grandfathering is current current determined currently determines I did mention exporting that surplus energy back to the grid and so I did want to address one thing that was that was mentioned in the ISP you know Mr chairman you seem to have significant concerns regarding that the selling of that power that arcades and choose to produce and and that was mentioned numerous times and I ask feedback just want to clarify that net metering laws do not permit power to be sold back to to utility so there's no monetary transaction but that metering actually does allow Or it does not allow her to be sold back so the seller producer is allowed to receive that credit for their harvested energy I would also point out that interestingly the wholesale price of power today is higher than the retail rate of power so any power that is produced outside of that wholesale market is a win for everyone but it's certainly not something that leads to an undue financial burden on either the utility or non solar producing ratepayers. So Sir sellers currently the most affordable way to generate power especially for our part of the country but to address previous conversations is solar going to fix all of our problems no it is not and we're not here to say that it is it is however part of a bigger solution that will help increase our energy independence and national security as we we pretty what are pretty set ourselves. the adoption of these advanced that energy technologies I was asked to talk about growth has grown significantly in very short order since it's essential inception installations in Arkansas had grown two thousand four hundred and eighty nine percent at the end of last year that number was it forecasted to increase by eighty four percent up to thirty five hundred and forty percent in this year alone we now know that that will be even higher in light of this historic investment we're seeing on the federal level. I would also taught as to talk a little bit about subsidies there's not I will say there's not really much to report on that front Arkansas is one of five states that does not provide any sales or property tax relief for solar I have a lot of farmers ask me all the time you know we get these exemptions for for these different things that we're doing conservation measures you know that they get they get payments from the federal government I'm for doing that and we're one of I say I'm sorry we're one of the states that doesn't have anything for you but I will say so we're not competitive on that front but a federal tax credit does exist which is consistent with the subsidization of energy across the board I think we all knowing can agreed energy is subsidized that's why we pay four dollars a gallon for gas here compared to nine dollars in Germany so just I guess on that front for a reference for for this body in twenty twenty fossil fuels received two hundred and twenty I'm sorry received six hundred and sixty two billion dollars in government handouts and that the I. T. C. F. incentive totaled six billion so just for comparison. and then I would just kind of wrap up I say you know by saying through my capacity I've had the privilege of facilitating meetings with lots of county judges Mister chairman I think you can relate to that role you know facilitating meetings with with landowners and farmers and county judges and solar developers and we discuss these plans for these multi million dollar projects that are in small rural communities in Arkansas you know one specifically happened to be in my home county of Lee County and it makes me proud to be able to help facilitate economic developments that will results in dozens of new jobs in these communities revenue streams to a county that so desperately needs these type of activities. I'm pleased today to be able to brag on the work being done in our industry regarding end of life cycle treatment and and plans for solar panels we actually don't refer to it as recycling both the federal government in the industry have entire plans and programs surrounding what route we refer to as end of life management of these of these panels you know the ISP mentions that the federal government and industry stakeholders have not considered a plan for end of life management and I'm I'm happy to be able to communicate for your reference today that they have the department of energy has a plan the EPA has a plan the Edison electric institute which is comprised of investor owned utilities which includes our friends at inter G. Arkansans SWEPCO earlier this year released a plan in conjunction with the national solar group and that to me really just illustrates that the all industry stakeholders or on the same page as far as addressing what this will look like in the future I'm certain our friends at the utilities have their own specific plans to recycle as they themselves have significant ownership of of solar three to you know entities like today's power all these plans are are readily available just a simple Google search I'm happy to to provide those for you all as well so there are no winners energy industry was founded on innovation and these private companies will continue that trend as they expand a secondary market for panels which to it to a large extent already exists and I'll turn it over to jade so she can elaborate on that. Thank you Lauren hello my name is jade in news it co owner founder and president for Arkansas solar power we specialize in residential commercial and industrial solar installations in Arkansas serving our state since two thousand seventeen I'll be speaking on solar installation materials their lifecycles recycling and all statements regarding sex and the ISP. Outside of residential installs Arkansas solar power is projected to install seven point four five megawatt of solar for commercial clients in twenty twenty three that's roughly thirteen thousand solar panels sixty inverters eighty three thousand feet of wiring twenty two acres of installed racking and Vincent collectively. All of which will be sourced here in the United States from US manufacturers the fate of these materials used at the end of their life cycles is known with decommissioning and recycling plans outlined within the project contracts in terms of material life cycles I think it's important to note end of warranty and end of life are two very different categories. Most tier one solar panels are warranty by the manufacturer for thirty years and that you're twenty five most panels are still producing ninety two percent efficiency with very little D. gradation by your fifty at the time of the committee mission and typically occurring you're twenty five panels are recycled or refurbished most manufacturers have recycling protocols established with their installers and Arkansas solar power currently recycles all panels there are manufacturing partners. The cost of decommissioning does not fall upon the community and some landowners rather it's the responsibility of the project owner typically there's a low cost and sometimes profit of project the commissioning due to the salvage value of panels racking still posed copper wiring and extractable precious metals that can exceed the cost of equipment removal and land restoration. According to the international renewable energy agency about twenty thirty the cumulative value of recoverable raw materials from end of life panels globally will be four hundred and fifty eight million dollars which is the equivalent to the cost of raw materials currently needed to produce sixty million new solar panels. Diverting solar panels from landfills to recycling safe space in addition to capturing the value of raw materials so let's talk about the recyclable components of a solar installation at time of decommissioning. About eighty five percent of the weight and solar panels as glass and aluminum this silver dollar coin here represents a little over twenty grams of silver which is the amount of extractable silver in each panel. On a larger spectrum at the commissioning of our twenty twenty three commercial installs will be able to roughly harvest six hundred and. Six hundred two hundred sixty thousand grams or five hundred and seventy eight three pounds of silver alone. The inverters and transformers are dismantled and various parts are refurbished recycled or deemed landfill appropriate. Inverters and transformers are typically bolted onto concrete or steel foundations which are then broken up and removed to be recycled or sold as scrap and a similar process occurs with the wiring and insing components of the install. So the big question that everyone asks so can solar panels be sent to a landfill. In the U. S. waste is separated into hazardous and solid waste based on a series of tests developed by the EPA a solar panels Way status is determined by the outcome of the toxic characteristics leaching procedure test or T. C. L. P. test this test developed by the EPA is designed to simulate landfill disposal and determine the risk of have hazardous substances that leach out into the landfill and with that being said most modern tier one solar panels pass the T. C. L. P. to S. I briefly touch on battery recycling. Growing demand for electric vehicles and off grid battery back up projects across the globe are some of the key factors driving the market for lithium ion battery recycling North America dominated the lithium ion battery market in twenty twenty and is projected to lead the project forecast period twenty twenty one to twenty thirty. The U. S. is one of the major lithium battery recycling market in the north American region. Lithium ion batteries are made up of materials such as cobalt graphite lithium which are considered critical minerals critical minerals are raw materials that are economically and strategically important to the United States and have a high risk of their supply being disrupted and for which there's no easy substitutes. When these batteries are disposed of in trash we lose these critical resources out right. The global lithium ion battery recycling market is projected to grow from four point six billion and twenty twenty one to twenty two point eight billion by twenty thirty at a compound annual growth rate of nineteen point six percent during the forecast to twenty thirty. As stated by US secretary of energy Jennifer Grandhomme battery recycling doesn't just remove harmful ways from our environment it also strengthens domestic US manufacturing by placing these used materials back into our stuff into our supply chain. The department of energy just took a first step towards launching new lithium ion battery recycling programs in the U. S. and it just issued a request for information a little over a week ago on August twenty nine to ask the public for input on how to spend three hundred and thirty five million dollars in federal investments for battery recycling that was included in the bipartisan infrastructure law that was passed last year. Lastly Arkansas solar power is partnered with local Arkansas based recycling companies for all of our jobs that waste and decommissioning obligations with that being said we're working with our partners to establish future future panel and battery recycling protocols to accommodate the anticipated demand in our state. I believe it is imperative to work together as a whole in our industry to work towards a common goal for Arkansas to establish renewable recycling procedures not only will it allow us to have a manageable approach to our anticipated demand but it would also position Arkansas as a leader on the forefront of the national goal and presents a significant economic impact for Arkansas thank you. Good afternoon my name is Adam ness I am in charge of asset development and structured finance for integrity energy partners. Integrity is in the services and solar company headquartered here in Little Rock consisting of over a hundred people employed throughout Arkansas and surrounding states thanks to you know enabling legislation twenty nineteen we have over seventy megawatts of solar projects in various stages of development throughout Arkansas providing over three million dollars a year of savings for clientele which is primarily public entities including schools cities counties and state agencies. The savings realized by these clients are used to accelerate economic development throughout Arkansas thanks to teacher raises stabilize water cost city upgrades and other necessary operating expenses savings in operating expenses for the public entities I I just a couple quick items I want to hit on today the first is clarifying when the items around the life cycle of these arrays could I get you to speak into the Mike please pull it up to you there. So I better. All right so the first I must wear fight is the life cycle of these items integrity is structured over her million dollars of finance into rural communities throughout Arkansas using its power purchase agreements they are on contracts typically of twenty to thirty years the panels are warranty deed for over twenty five years they are praised out to forty years and we we and our investors have guarantees far exceeding twenty years in place for the various folks within the capital stack in particularly around the. you know from the investor perspective there is that the capital is coming into these extremely long term oriented life insurance companies and people of that sort that have thirty forty fifty year time horizons and looking for very low return very low risk assets and so these are you know one emphasize that these are very long term players involved in these projects that are going to be in place for decades and decades. compared to other imprint energy infrastructure that we see such as HVAC light poles and hot water systems that have a life systems lifecycles and financing terms far below twenty years. That the same thing one hit on is discussing the end of life for the panels for integrity in particular we use first solar modules first solar is the leading domestic manufacturer the United States. and you know in part due to the inflation Act passed a few weeks ago. They now we're actually eligible for an additional investment tax credit if you're using enough domestic materials on your installations which is going to further drive interest in first solar and other domestic manufacturers throughout the country and you know they are looking to site and new or factory someone the southeast and I'm hopeful that will land out here in Arkansas the walls are twenty percent owner of first solar and I want to call up for solar identically you know they're not just the market leader but they are you know and and market share but in terms of their environment practices they have stringent environmental regulations or requirements and they recycle about ninety five percent the material which is included as part of their standard offering. they will come to the site transporting tails back for recycling to recover those key materials and remove the burden off of who are the array owner is additionally other materials on solar sites are the still piles are driven in the ground still a fairly easy thing to recycle close to a hundred percent recyclable if the arrays ever decommissioned and again emphasizing from the investor's standpoint you know these the folks are findings race do not really see an end of life as far as you know they're they're playing on being a part of for decades ahead. So big picture comparing this to recycling rates for other large installations automobiles electronics and coal ash R. eighty percent twenty percent and sixty four percent recyclable only thirty two percent materials in the US are recycled whether not they're able to be. there are very few resources in our world are one percent recyclable but the key components within solar are approaching it at ninety five percent of the models in a hundred percent for the piles in the ground. my third point here one make my third and final point here is emphasized that the key parties McKee stakeholders within the solar transactions whether it's us you know we're a Naples on company been in business for over seventy years our investors life insurance companies have been around for decades looking out for folks retirement for decades more to come have really long term orientations and we approach the market place and we approach our material selection we approach our construction with that extreme long term orientation in mind I'm just a lot of thought about doing things sustainably for which you know improves our bottom line and also you know takes care of these communities or serving we will continue service communities for decades to come and he's good material choice and recycling as a part of that you know customer lifetime value strategy that were oriented towards. So in closing the Arkansas is praise nationwide for solar policies we talked to folks in all three states and everybody has their eyes what we're doing here and trying to recreate and this and some sense so let's continue to focus on moving forward removing artificial barriers to that allowing Arkansas to be a winner in energy transition of the twenty first century thank you. We're going to open it up for questions. Okay. All. Senator Stubblefield you're recognized thank you Mr chairman. When you made the statement said transitioning to renewables would help us. The motor dependency on fossil fuels. The trim I did not say that no Sir. You didn't say that. Producing our own power through solar would help us increase our energy independence well it does not the twenty two thousand twenty we were energy independent. Well I think in light of current wars that are going on around the world I mean in two thousand twenty you know we weren't seeing the rising energy prices that we're seeing now we weren't seen inflation as it's directly tied to those rising energy prices I think we can all confirm that right now is not you know we're seeing more blackouts as you mentioned earlier you know I think we can all confirm that since twenty twenty you know are that the status of our energy industry to those extents has has not been positive. are you what what percentage of the entire planet. Has renewables solar in. You know how much energy research the the entire planet yes from renewable I don't I can say that it Arkansas we're looking at about one to two percent of the vote two to three percent for the arts we had our planet sure. One would only be two to three percent. Well a seller has just recently become more affordable you know when when our public service commission first promulgated the rules for net metering gas prices where a third of what they are now and even now with rising gas prices it's become even more affordable and more attractive you know you heard me talk about our adoption numbers and so I think that's why we're seeing those numbers growing I would also like to point out that you know a big piece again of net metering laws in Arkansas is to give consumers a choice so they can choose to put the pencil to it and decide that it's more economically feasible for them to to have the power to produce their own power so I think that's an important component of of this as well. Do you want to come or I do you. Do you. Because it takes four times more energy to charge the card does run your air conditioner household well what I do know is that at traditional combustion engines we know is the number one polluter I have our environment I also know that I really like to save money and I didn't like spending a hundred dollars at the pump to fill up my Chevrolet I was raised in a very shall be loyal family but it occurred to me that there's gotta be a better way to do this right and so what I do know Mr Stubblefield is that I like spending ten dollars to fill up my car as compared to a hundred dollars to fill up my car if you replace the battery in your car. No do you have any idea what the price of a lithium batteries I D. I suspect it's about the same price as replacing an engine in a traditional combustion engine much higher. What charter depending on what model you get yeah I think I think it depends yeah we send within prasa fifteen to thirty thousand for a battery how many people get taken for the. When Mr cook made the statement when he was asked about re of renewables solar and wind. AS in Arkansas. As much as possible in other words he would be in favor of covering every acre. They were catfish pond every cattle plaster every roll call Baker with solar panels you would you be in favor of the I'd be in favor for arcades and said have the choice if that's what they want to do with their land if that's what they want to do with their pastors that's what the I mean again to me this is about free markets and it's about choice right so you would be in favor of doing away with largest industry in the state. Well I think if it's if it's the most economically beneficial right now agriculture is you know has a twenty one million dollar economic impact of this state but I also know that a lot of farmers have I mean I think farmers are smart people and I think they have put the pencil to it and they decided that they can grow is safe and quality food supply while also saving money on their input costs and in a field that very well could have lost money I mean if if you saying gonna practices lately do you for. We have a farm at home yes if you talk to of the former I talked yes I've talked to a number of farmers the and the only one that would even consider a proposal like this or those that are seventy five eighty year old who can't really for many more your children will are not willing to take over the farm and the younger guys. The younger guys that I've talked to farmers they said my dad would roll my great in the grave if they cover their land with these class that well and I think you're right and I think what we're seeing across the board you know Mr Stubblefield from a mindset change is as just different point of view we're seeing that younger I mean in the in the same way that we're seeing new or conservation practices implemented on these farms you know I know I know that jade had a meeting with one of a a farmer that I guarantee you every person in this room knows earlier this week about new blood that's coming in that's looking for ways to save money because they have to save money in order to hide to stay in business and as I said earlier in my testimony and I kind of looked up it's you I don't know if you heard but we we are putting solar on our farm my father who is near seventy years old that's a choice that he has made to take that land out of production and to offset our energy costs in that way. I understand that from the from the old farmer's I just I just have a problem. We've I don't think most Americans want to import their food from countries that have much. Less safe standards for performed then we to be very clear I do it I don't want to do that either I that's not what I'm saying what. Question the subsidies how much how much are or these solar company subsidized. Government well like I said there's not a state subsidy but there is a federal tax credit of thirty five to thirty percent. Thirty percent so if you take away those subsidies how much would that increase the price that an individual must pay for the electricity are you talking about taking away all subsidies farmers subsidies well because when you look at the final as to those with the most heavily subsidized. Also feels that we use and yet farmers are paying when when ethanol started getting popular and and Johnson I wouldn't Zuri in Indiana started planning it was it was hilltop everything they could plant it was because of the subsidies. But because of the subsidies. But based health farmers and food production. It cost us more and more and more for free to feed to cattle the fifth this country you're seeing more and more they tell producers go out of business because they can't afford to feed cattle. Because the court is going for. It's being subsidized by the federal government along with these solar companies that are being subsidized by the federal government. I just want to speak on my experience with local farmers it's not a question of I'm taking my four hundred acres and converting it to a solar farm it's I'm gonna take this forty acres of soybeans that make two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year and install solar harvest sign for a multi million dollar revenue or that farm I don't think the question is are we depleting our agricultural demand and production for our state I think the question is how do we gracefully merge that so our farmers save money off a portion of their farms in order to utilize that in savings for fuel costs and overhead I think that there's a fine line in our farmers decisions but it's like Warren said who's to say you're able to install solar on your land if you're want to are we able to take that away no it's a choice and so we need to be an educational source of that fine line of maintaining and protecting our Act agricultural production also giving them the choice of making those funding decisions to grew in the free market I believe in the free market now believe in freedom of but what you're saying forty acres produces multi millions of dollars of soybeans are no I said forty acres generally brings in two hundred fifty thousand dollars annually for soybean production but with solar harvesting cost of ten million above the cost. That's just on average in my experience okay. That's all right now Mr. Senator Solomon you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr you a follow up on what the senator was saying you talk about free market but then you talk about subsidies and we eliminated fossil fuels if the goal is to eliminate a fossil fuel economy. That that doesn't sound very free market. I don't believe anyone said eliminate fossil fuels I believe what we said representive Sullivan was that that renewable energy is okay we'll put to the big portion you're saying you're going to eliminate a portion of fossil fuels The New York when you talk about the topic and why stores become more attractive it's only become more attractive because we've eliminated a big fossil fuel production that's what's attractive that's actually not true the reason it's attractive because the technology has gotten better and better over the years and as that technology is gonna get the prices gone down not here to debate that right now I think we I would disagree that people can't afford gas right now we're seeing inflation but that's not where I am I don't need to go there I'd be like asking auto. Dealership what are your plans for your recycling of your automobiles you sell when we do have no need for fossil fuels I mean. I don't think that'll let me ask you this. So we're going through this you mentioned a couple times the federal government's the. The anti inflation bill as arms laziness of the highest it's been in forty or fifty years and we're saying the highest inflation around the globe the highest in years as people are cutting off energy sources to Europe. Energy is more more expensive. So at what point do we start trying to work. towards lowering these cost for the consumer because the consumer is really suffering right now. And all the the bills that you're talking about as helping so much don't seem to be having that affect that seems to be having the opposite effect. I mean Senator we in that you know we have folks in the solar industry that are more conservative than anybody else in this room that can have some feelings about the inflation act in this you know how much it was truly needed but the reality is situation is it's in effect now we have ten years of federal incentives in place and whether or not we politically like that reality I think it's the job of our cans to benefit from the existing program that's in place and to help us use these tools are provided to drive down the cost of living for consumers in our state and I think you know there's been a clear signal from the federal government now through the treasury to use renewable energy as a tool to do that including you know it increased incentives for investing in low income communities in struggling communities and used metamaterials so again whether or not we like the politics of the bill I think that we have a real opportunity to U. S. businesses I agree with a rock and a hard place that's a tough spot for everybody and the the especially for the consumer so Matthew this this and I'll wind it down. I'm really can interested in at what point we talk about solar we talked about other renewables. Do you have an idea what percentage were looking out of our total energy consumption to be produced by solar in the next ten years. I'm the guy and I know it's it's not a hard answer because we're going to going to be adjusting that as science continues a bill learn more what works what doesn't work so I know it's not it's a difficult shot but there has to be a a number out there somewhere that were looking to move Arkansas you talk about plans for our our electric producers around the state they've got to have an idea of what percentage they're looking at to produce. By solar in the next decade do you know what the answer is. A state filing with my care of you'll have to talk to the resource planning folks enter G. and otherwise I've I've heard estimates as much as one gigawatt of solar being added in Arkansas and I believe Arkansas is about a six or seven gigawatt state so maybe reaching double digits in Arkansas but again or part of a larger grid system and you know the tildes and Artios be better position to answer that question for you I appreciate that and I sure hope with we don't we stop looking at people light as yourselves coming before the walls we're the representatives of the people and the questions that we're asking of the questions we are being asked to look at us as the opponents in the walls it's just not a good way to come before the legislature thank you. I would just like to quickly address that that that's not our feeling at all I think that that our position is to try to help. I'm sorry. I think that are put our position is to try to help answer questions and really educate on something that you know there's probably no less than a thousand people in a state of three million and that didn't know what the members of the Arkansas advanced energy association that and our job at a is not just simply to represent solar developers but we also represent the let the in industry the electric vehicle industry we've got to be manufactures coming in to energy efficiency and I just want to restate that again because utilities or member of a nobody up here or the consensus of our organization is that it needs to be a hundred percent renewable by any such date or hundred percent renewable all the time I mean we have been preaching right. We're years I think we're all most of us here in this room are in agreement but there is the stated goal from the president to have a. Fossil fuel free economy that's what the goal is and that's what the goal of the act was no one a rock and a hard place and for us to to come at one another for the opening statement was that the beginning witness was thrown to the wolves and. Other than Senator Stubblefield all respect Mr you know that that is not going to solve the problem for us to have these proper have these issues I hope we can work together better but I agree with you with there's a lot of people in this the consumer is the one being hurt the hardest thing And we would concur with that. Yeah and so and Senator Solomon I would just clarifies I'm the one that said thrown to the wolves I really meant he was being asked questions that were outside of his purview but my point was that I was hopeful that we could provide some clarity for the body you know as you're acting on behalf of your constituency yeah. Senate foreign representative Dalby you're recognized thank you Mr chairman here I really have two questions one are there any penalties either criminally or civilly for individuals improperly dispose of your product. You know of any on the books I couldn't find any on a quick look. Not that I'm aware of but I'll definitely look into that. The second question I have It it be an accurate statement that the more individuals who move toward seller does that then push the cost of traditional of electricity. the increased cost to traditional electricity to those who are not on seller seems like those who are not on so we're going to be penalized by the cut rate that those who are on seller. We have heard that argument in fact that I am I know that that's going to be a likely discussed later in the agenda so in the in the interest of time I'll allow our our future panelists to address that but it in short answer I can say that we know without a shadow of a doubt there is no undue financial burden that comes as a result from a solar user to their non solar using counterpart and I know that you know the public service commission has done a lot of work into that there there was an opportunity for the utilities to to prove that alleged Kashif that did not happen but again I know that will be discussed later. A follow up real quick so I want to go back to my first question second panelist had said that you have a program that you work with people that you sell your product to to recycle it did I understand that correctly but that we have a process in place that it for panel recycling to our panel manufacturers okay so say if I have solar on my house and I have all these panels and then one day I decide when and I don't really don't want to fool with it don't like it makes my house look ugly or something and I get him taken off right now I could just go dumped in the woods somewhere if I wanted to and there are no penalties correct. None that I'm aware of okay thank you. Thank you all represented immigrant you're recognized thank you the again I come from the local background so when they first manufacture first came out with the LED light bulbs they prompted that there was a twenty year lap only day I have a you put me and you will not have to replace lab for twenty years the end user course components contractors to one warranty for that twenty years when I went back to the manufacturer was working with the Housing Authority in big project instead okay you've you've went out and sold this now I'm having to furnish it you sell it on the twenty year warranty. Give me the twenty year warranty I would only give me a five year warranty so my question is on solar panels one is the basic manufacturers warranty on the panel you're saying they'll be thirty to fifty year laugh what is a warranty that they'll replace the panel when it fails it thirty years sure so the relationships we have with piano manufacturers as a thirty year warranty on parts performance and labor so I year twenty five if it's not producing at ninety two percent efficiency it's a warranty claim and you get it relevant okay thank you second question your. Is a it's my understanding that did our legislation here in Arkansas that we do kilowatt per kilowatt so when we produced in the the energy company has to pay the full retail price for that you're saying that's not true is that not true. They don't they don't pay it's it's it's in the form of a credit to the credit is applied to their to their next energy bill and like I said those retail rates that they're crediting are lower than even the wholesale rate that as of today. Honorum. So when you say credit it's still a killer wanted their credit you for that they couldn't sale for and they're credited at the full retail value so if they're selling that for whatever the full retail value is they can't sell it because you're producing it whether they need it or not you're still producing put it back on the grid so my question is that that's my full understanding a lot of research in that I do believe that sellers the future I am elected feel I've been here about solar for years probably. Ten twelve years ago I looked at getting into solar to make money doing it it didn't make financial sense it didn't make financial sense just a few years ago. Seller is gaining but it's been years and years so hopefully it'll get their father when I looked at putting my house on solar because it was a brand new house I wasn't subject to some of the tax credits that were available so I was essentially looking at when I look at the cost of it. Compared to what my home sixty five to what my life was supposed to be I couldn't even pay for the system much less good return in my lifetime so I hope that it will get better in that but the but the other the question is if that retail retail goes way because I'm already hearing some phone calls from companies that want to be able to buy it the true wholesale instead of having to pay that and be able to sell it if that goes away what the financial impact be on your industry. Because that is kind of a form set to see. I think it could definitely have an impact on the industry I think that one of the things that you know to your point representing the group is that this is a an industry that's in its infancy I mean it's an industry that come on to the scene and Arkansas truly over the last six to seven years I don't think that any of us like the word subsidy as a fiscal conservative I hate that word but and I don't think that the industry looks at is the substance but I understand your point and I respect that and but also we need to look at every industry in its infancy that's come in this nation and our government locally and federally has subsidize those industries to help them get off their feet and launch and that's exactly what's happened over the last several years with our industry and so these services are not forever nobody is anticipating that they are and we can certainly debate on whether or not that inflation reduction act was good I've could have the very feisty debate about that as a fiscal conservative but I think The Addams point is what we're trying to do is there are the money and the funding and the subsidies to use your words are there. And we have three million our Kansans who deserve. Just like every other American to utilize those in order to get this state of the art technology to get that on their home their farm their business their school and to utilize that to save money on their energy bills to have the surely of what that line item on their budgets going to be over the next ten twenty thirty years. I think that's the overarching point and maybe I'm a Pollyanna and and maybe a little too simplistic but I think that gets lost in the discussion of what is here and how do we how do we deal with what is here and how do we take care of our Kansans in the process and Stan and I guess my. Under that would be in I'm not saying I'm against that I'm just trying to figure this out what's best because if that percentage of our candidates that our own solar or getting that advantage the ones that are not on solar are having to pay a higher bill to pay for that and so I can say I'm just trying to figure it out thank you thank you German. If I could just address that the discussion point around cost shifting could take an entire we could have a just a hearing on that there is we have data we actually presented data from a cooperative watch all electric cooperative back in the twenty nineteen session which helped to convince I think that the legislature to pass SB one forty five and that data is growing with every year that solar can show a demand for the utilities and so I think that that is a discussion worth having I have many many friends on the utility side and we have raunchiest debates about this but and I think that's a debate that's worth having I don't want to sit here and say I'm wide and they're wrong or vice versa but that is a hearing all into itself when you talk about a cost shifting because you know there's a lot of. There's a lot of engineering and technology that need to be discussed on that. Okay Senator Hammer you're recognized. Thank you Mr just will quickly could well tell me over here to right there Richey let the the amount of subsidies federal percentage versus state percentage that is essential for your industry to survive how much are you dependent upon those federal subsidies percentage wise. I'll take it. At. We there. The on an number one industry survives whether or not their subsidies or not there is a federal tax credit there is not a state tax credit of any nature we Warren and our opening statement discussed you know there's not anything around property tax or sales tax or anything like that in the state of Arkansas all right and then I think you're in the room while ago the gentleman passed it on the the piece of pie for the industry to get you as far as if you know if you got this big piece of pie and solar's got part of it and you know petroleum natural gas or you got a piece of the pie what percentage do you forecast that you have to get to in order to sustain the industry long term and the reason I ask that is because if it the fossil fuels continue to go where or there's political pressure to do away with them some is got absorbed that spot I guess in the industry what's what's the imaginary percentage that you're trying to get to or is there no limit to the top of it. I thought I had the answer to that and I that I pause for a minute at as capitalist I mean I think that you know we don't know what that limit is but I think that right now our position is that solar is a very small sliver of the pot and certainly that sliver has to grow and we're seeing that from the utility partners a piece of their pie is is more more at dedicated to solar so I don't know that I can definitively tell you what that cap is or what that percentage is In a free market system I mean our our goal is to deliver on that technology and to give the public you know what they what they want and so I don't know that we really know what a top and it's going to be I think what in order to not sound ridiculous with that answer I would say that one of the things that's problematic when you try to answer that question Sir is the fact that our nation is becoming an elector five nation I mean from Eevee charger Selectric medicals to the games that our kids and grandkids play so we'd the need is growing for more more electricity and I think that that is got to be taken into the mix okay and appropriate ask questions because you you mentioned while ago about this industries in its infancy kind of like a compared to like broadband you mention you know what's being done to help broadband get it stood up because everybody needs and wants it the new electrification if you would of the century. So somewhere out there then you're recognized that that is going to stop are you looking at you know and I understand that goes ministration ministration and and all that stuff but as far as where we get to the point where you would have to be dependent upon any kind of tax credits or any these other things Richard depended on now how far out would you project that is or is the industry been talking about that. I can tackle that you know kind of hinting to the prior question little bit of the very macro scale. we have a very efficient markets in place of my son's office powerful that have capacity options and fifteen in minute energy markets and standby reserves we have lots of markets that you know effectively set that rate and make sure there's always you know the projected demand is met that faced by an auction style so that's going to really tell us about when new generation sources will replace less efficient sources just by you know cannibalization through markets which you know you kind of what would make note of the freemen very happy as far as the tax credits going we continues the cost curve driven down on the seller side and our certain C. on the battery side so we've got ten years tax credits in place I don't have a crystal ball but I would think that if batteries near the solar costs currently experience in the past decade we seeing different forms of storage really starting to plug gaps the start take intermittent resources and to eat NO way at those later four hours all right last question is I've had comments from realtors you know and I just like some clarification as far as like a home or a place that has the solar panels on it the limitations of the ability to sell at home greater lash any impact and I think sometimes I pick out second mortgages or order to be able to afford to system may that depends on the company you're dealing with can you speak to the limitations that if you own a home and you've got a solar system installed on it how is that impacting the realtors market I think right now what we're what we're saying is it depends on the appraiser I think that again not as an excuse but again there's a lot of education is to be done both with banks appraisers real estate the real estate industry but if you have the right appraiser who understand so or if you have a real estate agent understand solar if you're dealing with a bank that understand solar then you're not gonna have any problems there's actually a supplemental document to that appraisals can use it's called the green dot. Talk and it's not just for solar it's actually for energy efficiency appliances to windows to if you had added extra insulation to your home and so that documentation and those processes actually exist and it's just a matter of we need to to all do a better job of you know educating those industries to let them know because there is value to that if you encompass it as somebody who was in corporate finance for a couple of decades if you look at that when you're selling a home or business and you're not taking into account what the utility cost is and that's going to be reduced if there's solar tied to that project so it's just taking a holistic approach to the value of that property or thank you thank you Mr. Senator Stubblefield you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman. I want you guys to understand I'm not totally against solar I believe it has is part it plays a role in our in our energy supply. But there's something that's troubled me for a long time and that is a fact it. Majority of the solar panels come from China a country it gets only three percent of its energy from solar panels and yet is currently building thousands of coal fired generating plants. That that troubles me. The very company that produces the most of the world's supply of solar panels only just three percent of its energy from those. At the building at the same time call for the atmosphere. Shed. A. Is still the same place in sixteen twenty. Texas is number eleven it one said. His speech. His name is a conservative. To make sure the federal and state government R. as in consequential. Is it possible. I just hope so that. It's just helps that and one more thing. It's all. The only states that have expanded brownouts and blackouts. Those states transition to alternative medicine very quickly. Texas. Decided to go that route and you know what I said we were. February. Just to speak on that point I think that's an unfair assumption and just due to the size of our great capacity compared to those larger states I think that's a factor that a lot of people don't take into consideration California's huge they're great passing sector is you know three to five what Arkansas's great capacity is and to your point of sourcing panels in China all of our installs for twenty twenty two forward panels and materials all materials used for our installs are sourced locally here in the U. S. I think that it is involving our industry in manufacturing in the United States I think that it's just a false claim that. We're not utilizing our manufacturing expanding that the U. S. I think that it needs to be developed further parking pass the but I think that's a conversation that needs to be had I think it's just calls that it's. Senate source St Gianna well having said that. Solar has still has two major problems one is the sun always shines. Nine to ten or twelve hours a day that's it. You don't produce electricity at night with soap and I know I drive by on some appointed this way someone pointed this way. And the second is the capacity for storage we still do not have the capacity to store electricity that forty million Californians can use. Tell that to those people out there now they've been told the pharmacist to turn thermostats to seventy eight. This is a state the transition to alternative energies way too quick. I'd rather pay a little more for carbon based energy. As long as I've got if I can turn the foster don't have hot water heater recognition. So I think we need to slow down and take a look at this. A before we just rush into something and then later on but the consequences to our citizens thank you Mr chairman. Representative right you're recognized. Okay thank you Mr chairman I think my question is probably best directed at miss the new sect but anybody can can answer it if it makes sense I'm trying to get a better understanding on two two points one is the ease of recycling with regards to solar panels and I know you don't like the term recycling but that's what I'm going with for simplicity sake. the second is the point on suitability for landfills you had mentioned that there were two classifications waste for that and that most modern solar panels were were suitable for that the report that I was that I was referencing and my question with with Mr hooks was from Los Angeles Times from July and it was saying basically the opposite and that's why I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what is accurate here because this report says that in most states panels are classified as hazardous materials which require extensive restrictions on packaging transport and storage so that's on the suitability for landfills question on ease of recycling the report said in part that although eighty percent of a typical panel is made of recyclable parts the disassembly and recovering the silver and glass and silicon is extremely difficult requires highly specialized material and workers to separate the frame for the box eccentric center it goes into detail on that that is that just a distinction between. Early model solar panels and more current models or is there a reason for the discrepancy between what you're saying and what I'm reading here or. I'd like to speak on the discrepancy of your source LA times and how credible that source of information as as far as recycling ease of recycling any commercial and most of our residential installed over certain kilowatt has recycling or end of life Outlined in that contract so our customers are going into this knowing what those processes and procedures are in look like from the very beginning as far as the waste you are correct in older models are not up to standard and codes that would pass the TCL P. tests that the EPA developed at this test them from the EPA's resources in figuring out which panel is able to be recycled verses the waste and hazardous substances that would leach out of those panels and yes I did reference earlier most year one solar panels do pass the TCL yes so the EPA is already on as well as other government agencies when you're one what do you mean tier one would be at one I think of tear its quality so the top quality material when I think of quality I'm looking at their performance their efficiency their Deckard degradation rate and things of that nature so tier one is the best of the best on the market and our codes and protocols for panel manufacturing has changed with the evolution of tons and development. Okay and what was your I I didn't catch this at the beginning what was your critique of the store that I was referencing the source of the credibility of the LA times okay it is we are you familiar with the report I'm talking about yes. Okay is it not accurate or what what's the Asians captaincies and you know whenever I look for research and citing information I personally don't usually comes in I know that our federal our national solar group Pat put out a response about a lot of the discrepancies that were in that article because they were highly debatable and I'll be happy to send that to you okay all right thank you you're welcome. Senator Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman and Hopefully I can inject just a little bit levity into this I know my friends representative ray and Senator Stubblefield or probably itching to pull my Republican Party membership card after some of the things I've done and said the past but I'll I'll jump right in here firstly point I support free markets and like miss Nelson capitalist and also but also believe that we need the first Forms of energy I'm not against call I'm actually very much for coal and I believe that we need to do things not to phase out our Arkansas coal fired power plants but to save them and keep us from going to the situation that Texas us dealt with winter before last but that's that argument for another day I do want to correct a few things I remind my colleagues that you are entitled to your own opinion but I don't know what you're always entitled to your own facts and I've heard so many factual errors that have been brought up that I had to correct some of. Senator Stubblefield hi I will keep my electric car because it really doesn't take as much to charge it as you said because if it did I would be NO looking again something else but I want to hang on to it but when I'm not working out a deal with you on my red pick up that you seem to covet that's has a diesel engine that you asked me about so But but to get back to this. Fifteen months ago I would have been is ignorant about why these issues as. Anyone else in this room probably worse but because of some things happen to me in my life and things I'm exposed to I've learned a whole lot about electricity about electric cars about battery storage about solar energy and I give credit to among others this Walter. My daughter who's involved with an electric truck manufactures some of the solar panel. A. Installers thank you are up but really what I've learned is that this is an evolving technology. I looked at solar. For my home and. Twenty something years ago and it saying the only thing it had any kind of liability was water heating. And I kind of blew it off as it now this this is doesn't work but I've learned that a whole lot has happened since then and now yes we subsidize a lot of things and we could spend days and days talking about subsidies everything from when we passed a half cent the general sales tax to build highways were we subsidizing of the trucking industry because that's money that they're not having to pay in diesel fuel costs now we can talk about things like that all the time and we do cost shift we do it we as a legislature does and the federal government certainly does it but I want to get back to this whole thing about. The real world and where we are not the way it ought to be hi our panelists you made reference to the the recent legislation Congress passed on that we had the unfortunate title of of reducing inflation I think like miss Nelson is going to have the opposite effect but it did put some things in place in certain as we all do I mean when you take advantage of what the weather is and what the thank. Political climate is and I don't blame anybody for taking advantage of subsidies that come up with this I mean we're we're sitting here in this legislature and I only want to talk about how much money and are putting cares Act funds you know we distributed across the state and and while some of it was probably needed I can't help but think how many times I shook my head when I saw money flying out of this room for dubious projects that seem to have little or nothing to do with COVID are helping people get back on their feet we did it we had it we were asked to and we spent so I'm not going to defend what we did anymore that I'm going to defend some of the bad actors that every industry including Saul Warren and battery industries have but I just want to ask all about a couple things one is and I'll start with the as Walter of. I know their new battery technologies and I think for good reason scientists that didn't pay attention to this we are now looking at it very seriously because there's a demand and a need for it and again that's capitalism at work but I know Arkansas has some interest in this because of the development of leave him that is extracted from Brian and self Arkansas could jump touch on. The way we're going where hopefully some of the environmental concerns like cobalt and things like that could are being addressed not that there there yet but technologies that are being developed including how Arkansas. Sure so I'll just kind of start with the standard lithium project I had a reporter from fox news called recently and ask you know what is it that you all have going on down there and on the radio and I was able to explain to her how this is a situation where Arkansas has taken a seemingly worthless by product that was a result from the mining of Ole which is obviously not the case anymore you know this product is thousands of is bromine water thousands of feet below the earth's surface and we have figured out a way to extract that bromine water and then further extract the lithium before replacing it back into the earth's surface you know that's something that's an economic development that is welcome by that community this has repurposed the jobs in that community and it's essentially take in an older form of energy and made it new again as you all know that the emphasis significant input that's required for batteries Senator Johnson you mention batteries and we know that again the domestic development of things like batteries that include these inputs it is becoming more important all the time from an economic standpoint you know we're looking at developers here in the State of Arkansas that we utilize these inputs and these batteries companies like canoe companies like and buyer tech and so I don't know if that is kind of painting that picture or if that answers your questions Senator it does and I'm glad you mentioned those companies older Arkansas based truck manufacturer certainly stirred you start up they're getting started in doing that at least but I'm just to. One of the most. Import I will just say I have one more being a member of the Joint Committee on Energy from some of our presentations including some of our National maison ten you've learned about how energy can be stored in ways that I'd never imagine for example you you have a over abundance of power at certain time of day you pump it on top of the mountain into a into a lake and then. If if it's got enough head that the time will come you can open that same thing And run that water back down through a. So hydro generator and generate more electricity so there's more than just batteries involved in storage I'm. I'm excited actually about some of the technologies but more importantly I'm excited that we're seeing a resurgence of American manufacturing not just in the solar panel field but another simply because Hey we needed and if we didn't get any other lesson out of the pandemic is we don't need to be dependent on China for anything that's of strategic importance and so I have thank you all for doing that I just stepped up one touch by could briefly on the the issue of of the net metering and an and one help me if I'm misquoting and represent a group was asking about how that works it's a kilowatt hour for kilowatt hour credit it is not a dollar for dollar credit is that my you're the correct way to describe that way how that particular thing works if you put one kilowatt hour into the grid you don't get any money for it but you're. Now your bill for for using from the utility is reduced by one kilowatt hour yes Sir that's exactly right it's just a credit so there's no monetary transaction but yes you are credited for one kilowatt hour on your future energy usage so theoretically if my. Okay it's a hot day in August and this solar panel is is cranking away and sending Jews back then I could if mine's really doing a great job of it my bill that the energy portion of could theoretically go to zero but I won't get any more than that. I believe that is that's right okay our. Did you have in your battering in a I want to do anything you want to add on this year I was just going to following say the goal of solar is to offset your annual usage you know one hundred percent capacity so utilizing those credits you know credit for credit per kilowatt the goal in designing a system is to offset that a hundred percent for the homeowner. Thank you. Sorry that's okay I'm just gonna add that the net metering law doesn't allow you to produce more than ten percent in excess of your energy needs so for whatever that's right you're not going to get more but you can store it if you have batteries for example right now. I have a friend that has a farm in western Arkansas and he's very interested in this he thinks he can. While still being connected to the grid probably be self sufficient their worries located so I'm I'm I'm encouraged to see some of these these things come along and I I just I I just want our our laws and our technology and our really are are regulation to be consistent with what the new technologies are allowing and I am going to close I could Mr chairman just to mention that you're seeing the free market at work. And I'm not one of these people that thinks that alternative fuels are gonna replace traditional fuels any time in my lifetime and I think that's is politically responsible as to say that we don't need any of these things I think that we need a real diverse energy mix to protect us from any one. A category anyone cartel like opac or something having at an inordinate amount of leverage on our country so thank you for all you do thank you senator. A. Yes the representative body you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman I believe it was missed the new state that mentioned focus on US sourced materials and panels my question is could you educate the the Committee on Arkansas many factors that are manufacturing panel components within the state that that you try to increase that industry and and give us some information there. Sure so currently in Arkansas there are no specific panel producing manufactures there are racking manufacturers were partnered with PLP out of Rogers Arkansas who basically manufacturer aluminum racking or the solar projects as far as sourcing them here in the United States their US manufacturing sources are expanding their manufacturing capacity to meet the domestic demand in the United States so that is the ultimate goal is to move all of our manufacturing availability to the U. S. T.. That was the reason I ask that is allowed in in in cross on economic development foundation there and we actually have a manufacturer that they're in Crossett this manufactured components that go into solar panels Primorye's renewable out of Colorado so I was you know maybe some information that would would would help with the industry by and by noting you know about economic development good Arkansans to work that this industry can employ a more Kansans and also from an economic development standpoint national corporation international corporations looking to Arkansas in our access to solar panel trying to reduce their carbon footprint so I I think that should you if you've got any more information on that that you'd like to speak to. I would just say I think one of the most exciting things about the renewable industry is the use of steel and the fact that you know Arkansas is you know when the top steel producers in the nation before and after the latest investment we were really excited to do a couple of different projects for of lexicon steel and on the one other than the than Blytheville and Carlisle we were able to utilize new or still for the first time and so I think that that is what to your point I think that's a that's another exciting piece of this for our Kansans of the State of Arkansas is not just you know economic development for if you think about developers but all the different industries here in Arkansas that can or already do touch these industries and how we can continue to grow jobs for all of those and so I think that's a really exciting thing that that we need to talk about more. And if you don't have there's point for most recycling standpoint. Arkansas is a leader in recycling currently we're partnered with Arkansas based recycling companies and I think that to utilize the job force increase and full life cycle of manufacturing and recycling here in Arkansas more conversations need to be had to develop that facilitate that we want to be leaders in our nation as far as manufacturing and recycling. In just one follow up on a completely different subject. you know we're here to look at the end of life policies and and playing some solar panels I think right now or they're five states actually have an end of life policy for solar panels based on your research which of those five state policies would you direct the committee to look to you as being a model policy That we could we could look to embrace so I would just say you know if there's only five there's not a whole lot of benchmarking we we can do but the majority of our conversations as far as the industry goes really happened about allowing the free market you know our again our industry was built on innovation in our members like jade for example are going to use this as a springboard to expand their offerings and to be more complete you know full service for their customers I'm also just personally not a fan of additional regulatory actions or red tape and so you know I'm hopeful that the majority of of these plans will be outlined in the contracts that are are finalized before a project is ever built. Thank you. Hi representative love you're recognized. Just choose me. To me representative Ladyman. Thank you Mr chairman try to be brief because on those right away but just I want to ask this question to clarify you you. Barclays answer this but. You know I think the question This ISP is trying to ask and answer is you know when you buy the boots on the ground question here is the county judges in the waste districts want to know can may accept these panels in our landfill and not have to become up in ten years because they're hazardous I think that's the question in my mind at least it is and and you know I've touched on this but I know there's recycling and that's great I'm all for recycling but in manufacturing and recycling there are issues or maybe it's capacity maybe it's access so there are times when end users are going to try to take these things the landfill it's just not you know in a perfect world we would all be recycle they're not going to be so these are going to show up in a landfill and I know you mention the TCO protest was run on certain models. So. Landfill I don't know which models had DCOP test run in their non hazardous you know so. The question is can they take these panels and bearing the landfill and who is monitoring that I know that goes back DPA but even our department of energy here in Arkansas probably has questions about with the skin on land or not you know. They they could maintain defined as an article we only be familiar with that you know you can throw something away if it's a component and it doesn't Lynch right so what is a P. A. say about this I mean is there a clear answer as to whether we can put in a landfill or not. Right so I'll answer the first part of your question and then I'll let jade into the rest. the first part of your question which was so how. What was the first part lost County but the real there's only really one question can you put in a landfill and what our limitations if you're running a landfill shared what is Cher well I mean I plan as of today as you know our hope was to have this conversation and not even mention any of those nineteen solid waste district I know that there's future panelists here that have very close connections to those solid waste districts and can shed more light on on on what that looks like to the extent that that does occur you know my thought is that that can be actually potentially an additional revenue stream because these do our house so much value ballot jade speak to the. So you know the whole purpose of outlining the the commission recycling plans and contracts is to. Anticipate the weight the process and things for the actual consumer the and the person who owns the project. Our job and our role is to take the foundation set by the EPA and and use that as educational scores that is not been developed that's the process and purpose of these conversations now the EPA is developed at the TCL P. test to aid in those processes now where a regulatory side would come in is we take the ETC L. P. list of appropriate solar panels that meet their testing requirements and are able to be disposed of. Where the question lies is who's going to be that regulatory committee how are those regulatory processes going to be handled and who are they going to be routed to and that's the conversation that we should be having right we take the recommendations from our agencies and then utilize that and Arkansas processes but with that being said any commercial or some residential installs as far as speaking with my company those plans are already outlined for them my purpose as an installer in contract is to educate on those processes but also the financial gain from that as well decommissioning used to cost money for our installers to decommission and repurpose the area and now we're being able we're able and we're if we should set our state up to receive the influx of panels being decommissioned to truly recycle them and gain economic impact our state. Thank you. A quick question as chairman of this is that really a technical question but I want to number wind farms and our our turbines or high in the air most of them were installed on cattle ranches and so they continued to run cattle they didn't lose any ground or very little ground because they were high in the air is there any technology work being done I'm again some of these so so were bills and other any other like three feet off the ground why could does not be raised up and that land still produce crops so I'll I'll tackle that we've got I guess close to a thousand acres of solar at this point with integrity and we're having a lot of fun certain run she fell a couple there is vertically for schools schools like combine their FFA programs with raising torpor lamps and you're kind of getting the help the kids learn how to run an agribusiness through them so that's particularly strong use case being dole uses of that land in different climates for certain see some new forms agriculture within the ground like that like say like broccoli and I guess to your second question there about raising off the ground I just raise the upfront capixaba of the Cantley and make them less economic but I think the the data constraint on the ground there needs is you know whether or not there's enough sunlight to grow crops and That's and also you know make sure don't reach three feet in height it's amazing how quick rest grows underneath these are race. Well I noticed the grass does grow on your own you know and it I mean if the if there's a solution there it would reduce the cost of soci was sold thank you for your answer. And we thank you today for being here and you are now dismiss. next up is Ted Thomas of the public service commission the chair of the public service commission. Tell does you know we're running really late here and so all my colleagues here going to ask you yes or no questions okay one all right all right thank you Mr chairman I could be in for the legislatures in faces from not the normal committees are present for earlier this year I got a call from one of your colleagues with the constituent problem regarding interconnection to the solar system Michael your connection or all of your constituent calls I take that seriously god we had a conversation result of that conversation there was a legislative hearing on these issues so I testified at Joint Energy Commission well A few weeks back one of the warring parties in the soul or a group of coops founder refusal motion. Because of my testimony in the legislature I want to come to you I feel like I have an obligation to answer you your questions truthfully and so I actually think now they're using that. As a basis for refusal so I can't do my job at the commission the public service commission is is a mix our core functions ratemaking which is a legislative function delegated by the legislature in the Arkansas Supreme Court as defined the public service commissions a legislative agency we also have a story to investigate which is typically the purview when executive branch and we have hearings we call quayside judicial which looks like the judicial branch with three branches of government the public service commission does stuff that looks like each of these things. By seeking refusal six of the seventeen coops they seek to exclude me from the legislative process this is an effort by private interest to exclude the public interest from legislative discussions. Last year's your legislature of crested my views has stated or negotiated with others on nearly every single edge issue in the energy space. Together we have been consistently right. I was right when I said this purpose of the store access act was to give consumers an option to avoid potential high natural gas prices we natural gas prices are used to generate electricity. With right. To give options to deal with the EPA regulations there's a new Casper regulation that could cost us significant amount of money. It was also right to seek to use Arkansas's cost advantage in solar because of its flat relatively expensive land higher radiance as a driver of economic development was right when I said those things and you the legislature was right when you passed the sewer access act. We look for opportunities to hedge the cost of natural gas when it was cheap the stuff moves really slowly you wait till it's expensive you're behind the curve now we see how expensive it is that's what happens with more have occurred eighteen months after my testimony. Not Amazon dot com General Motors announced plans to build large scale solar facilities in Arkansas large sophisticated corporate interest salt when I saw that we had a cost advantage that was presented to the legislature eighteen months before those corporate entities saw the opportunity. We've been right again and again and again. Now they want to exclude that they don't want to hear from energy which doesn't like third party song op programs will testify themselves ramped up. solar in response to competition from third parties this was a design feature of the program this was how it was supposed to be because enters the ramped up its solar capability when US steel came calling they were ready to meet the moment. US steel announced its location in Arkansas use the word sustainability in its press release seven times. We won on sustainability because our our utility was aggressive on solar and they had to be aggressive on solar because the sewer access act allowed skilled third party competition so what you were told about economic development when you pass the store Act it happened the largest project in our sister. Enter the adapted to the policy. Some of our courts have adopted to the policy today's power is a leading solar vendor owned by the co ops with the profits it's a for profit company owned by non profits don't back in an inner to the benefit of our rate payers Ozarka cart Corp in Northwest Arkansas was among the leaders in doing what our policy wanted to do take the cost shift and mitigated with storage they did that our new solar companies are adapting or not to solar companies so Sturch is energy efficiency companies are moving into the the space they're moving in demand response you're looking at storage stuff what we've done is we've placed entrepreneurs in the energy space in and around a regulated monopolies to make them more responsive to customers and it's working they're going great businesses. Some cooperatives refused to adopt. They have a a different policy here's their policy they say that the solar. Access act is preempted by federal law they found that in testimony that you can't do that because this control by federal law. We'll see how that works out but one thing they don't seem to understand about that is the seminal United States Supreme Court case on federal preemption is grand Gulf. Where the fork forced us to pay for something that we didn't want you to huge clinical thing off from the eighties but guess what when Fork forced us to pay for that. The utility filed what's known as the tenor of which is the rules I know we talked about terrace we're not talking about that kind of terror if you today that the fee people charge for imports the term for the rules that you take service by. If all the tariff so even with federal presented as a tariff at the state public service commission while the coop says federal presented in or charging stuff that's not permitted in the tariff. The charging a fee that's not permitted they're charging insurance it's more than the bill utility bill total. They're saying we don't care if you have homeowners insurance to say they cover we want you to buy they're trying to kill it. Another thing they've done with this constant spirit of contention other than a refusal. Last week they filed a motion to strike testimony filed by state public service commission general staff lawyers because it was two hours late. Two hours in a procedural schedule had months and months and months unnecessary. Expensive and guess who pays for all this the members pay for they will center and tell you all the members can vote the members can do that the members have to pay for this litigation garbage the members can see the book. And if you look at the levels of solar penetration in these areas and compare the cost shift that the alleged to the lawyer fees. You probably be stunned it's constant constant contention they seek. To substitute their judgment those who have always been wrong and don't have a plan. With my judgment with this queues a motion I'll testify anyway today I'll see what I think like I always do I will answer your questions and question your constituents to the best of my ability like always to. These are mixed questions the governor appointed future mobility Council. I'm on it we discussed policies energy they have a docket on charging stations. If you apply the standard that the co ops by they would toss me off the dock. They and every other utility entity have the good sense and judgment not to do that. Now to a cost shift the politics of subsidy always involves a combination of self interest in the public interest too much subsidy result in a government substring itself from market for consumers in picking winners and losers economically to preclude two political muscle rather than what the consumer wants. But a rigid zero subsidy policy or result in skilled incumbent businesses question or absorbing new ideas from small business. Zero subs because of scale. Scale is the key a big business with skill will crush a little business with a better idea. If you're not careful this kills innovation and a centre Johnson mentioned the last organize opposition to the interstate highway system president and Eisenhower administration. With railroads or building highways is a subsidy for the trucking company. If we can for the subsidy debate because of the economic interest involved by all parties that's also welcome in in in in in solar one large solar facility where the utility testified there's no question there is zero cost shift. So were the storage offset some of the car shift but something we call the lioness and interruptible terror for large industrial customers offset the rest of. When you look at this scale of I. S. subsidy it once the scale. Of the solar but here we are talking about the seller if we're talking about industrial the room would be filled with the state chamber of commerce everybody hates subsidies except there's. And in the political debate when you mix all of this up you can lose the public interest to special interest in a substitute ballot. So in ballot with this we got to balance it is too much that it uses bad zero Serbian no innovation and that's bad so how do we do that in the context of our solar program well first we divide the cost shift on a cumulative basis rather than a transaction by transaction basis. That we would to find cost shift in this manner we specifically stated in the legislative committee. You'll hear what I buy something from nine cents when I combined for three. If you only have one unit sold you don't care because it's six cents. And if you have a hundred thousand customers and a subsidy six cents you can't call of the penny small enough to distributed to the customers that's the reality. Also who says it's going to be available. You presume that you can buy it whatever if there's nothing available what do you do well if there's nothing available you can still get a solar that's sitting in your state. He's also include potential benefits so we need to do is to find a cautious on Acuna basis. For what the benefits are and the duck found. The wrong way to handle the subsidies to ban a transaction to be born to a transaction the seller transaction don't ban the transaction measure the detriment and go back to the people so would you pay that detriment to keep your transaction that's how you get the both the best of both worlds you are the transaction to go forward. But you committee gated with a cost shift. This is why we created in twenty twenty or order. The the great access mechanism utility for the given the option of stating all of the costs if they did happen from day one until the date of that order. And cumulate in it and then we're going to for future solar installations we're going to put a fee on them. They get us back to flat line with the industry standing up on its own. After. It's scaled. June twenty twenty we put that out there. Some of you know the answer to this question to guess how many utilities have filed for agreed fee. Not everyone. The charge fees that are illegal to charge the charge insurance the file for refusal. But they won't file their data so that other people can look at it and we can examine what the proper grid fee. Should be. In fact the leader of this utility group Petty gene electric coop said we don't want to measure we know what's wrong but we don't want to measure back in the day before I had this time was a recreation leader I will go read a book I don't read that anymore because I read all day long revocation I read it all I've read for eight years the dumbest single thing I've read in eight years is that you should measure how can you do policy when you don't measure and these people with a refusal motion when a substitute their judgment for my judgment that's bad for you. The evidence was presented in the PSC. Hearing. Okay by me. Reorganize my thoughts okay. Two separate fee. Nobody applied energy is negotiating they sought to negotiate they have a good reason for not they're trying to work something out I suspect the reason nobody else is filed is because they would be embarrassed if they stayed with the fee is. They would come doing that we've had in a hearing for how many hours and you're talking about five cents a month per customer. I think that's why they have found I don't know that for sure perhaps the tell you why they haven't filed bill so we didn't trust him. That doesn't make any sense I've beaten over the head with the fact they haven't filed agreed fee for for two years. The reason there legislative approach last session failed is because they had found agreed fee I think we've got it covered we've got it covered you don't have to change the law the five The Great fee and we'll work through it the codified the data so you know the data I don't detect the chose not to when they choose to do they chose to appeal the appeal the PSC ruling. That's in somewhere folks also appealed. For balance. Because if you appeal number side doesn't bend you know you have no reason never to dismiss repeal. I was hoping it would be a trade off I work for two years the engineer that trade off and it didn't happen the solar be to drop their appeal. But the cost would. So if you want forward I stated in a legislative committee on two separate occasions the biggest risk we haven't cost shift. Is this appeal. That's the biggest driver on the car shift is this appeal they should drop it. I gave a public speech. The internet virtual part of the speech was sponsored by the by the lawyers for the pick the co ops and they laid out the specific risks this is what can happen bad to you if you continue with this appeal. Of course the continued with the continuing their record of poor judgment. The people's court ruled against the coops on every single issue. And because the solar people but there is an. The solar people won their issue in front of the coops you for people testify to you that we get from all the data in the PSC hearing. Well guess what the pills were found when the public service commission this is what we found we found there was some evidence of Kashif for the grid fee but as accumulates over time then you'll have an unreasonable question would appeals court said no there's no evidence of caution if there's none whatsoever. So they took or twenty twenty date away. They took the date they gave us the ability to consider any cost shift or we could put a fee on any any solar a solution after June of twenty twenty and make the Kashif go away. That disappeared with the appeal court. Decision the appeal court decision that they refused to drop. Five conversations minimum with senior members of the core players well we don't seniors we have this is a risk to legislative hearings this is the rules this is the risk now we have the risk. In June of twenty twenty one we impose the grid fee natural gas prices were low. The solar industry was smaller. We didn't have a federal government with this shovel shoveling your money and more subsidies on solar. That's when you fix the problem. Now it's open ended one to one. On into the future. With gas natural gas prices at nine dollars which drive solar demand the federal government with the solar subsidies. And a scale solar business. Thank care about the scholarship though they bald about the Kashif with their incompetence and any article legislative strategy has made the cost shift materially worse now what we do you can tell I have a good attitude about this because the single thing on this planet that gives me the worst attitude is when I don't want to shovel a big column and newer and I tell everybody in the world how you can avoid having to shovel it but they don't listen and I'm standing there with a shovel happen to shovel the whole reason I tried so hard to get them to drop that appeal is because I didn't want to have to shovel the big problem a newer. That left me that they that they've left us all with. Three years ago I came to the legislature. And I serve when I started Sir how we get mail. Will benefit I was back in the day I don't know if you'll get I'm sure you have more email now the email and I will get these charts and every chart would say are you look at the chart WorldStage WorldStage after a while you learn you have to look at the bottom of the chart find our state. How are we at the bottom of so many categories of economic development there isn't a bill to be forty nine. It happens by accident that happened by unintended consequences. It happens by a failure of leadership. And the failed legislative strategy the field PST strategy failed appeals court strategy and the failed strategy to kick me off in this case that's how you get forty nine fact I've got a new term for McCollum forty Niners. It's this mentality that keeps us at the bottom. And that group seeks to substitute in front of you their judgment. For mine. So what we do. The first thing we do is we need data about the PSC. I've been working for nine months maybe just to follow something as people file date even if they're not going to agree to the course and all the contention. We're always pushing back the optional stuff for the mandatory stuff because everything so contentious we need data. Due to the early ones with the kind of government. The second thing is is we need to solar experts and other experts have a different view than them to go over that debate data and have a debate between the solar companies and utilities in front of the PSC to come up was rights the right answer on the Griffey. What's the right answer on to mitigate the cost shift without killing ministry. We're in the early innings because of our cost advantages over particular the Delta. The driving economic development no school. You're some people are just trying as hard as they can screw it up the forty Niners. We need to keep the program balance the question if we don't have the data yet. Then if the PSC makes this decision. Then you come back to the legislature that doesn't have to be the finest work fine or whatever right to appeal as they should. If we screw something up no need to look at. Right now we have no data they're going to bring you a bill. No data. And we're gonna try to kill it. We need the data before we resolve this legislatively and we need to think about where we could have been they just left it alone and they work with me and father Griffey they could have appealed and final agreed fee think a smart that would you guys get a ride or the appeals court standing there with a hammer. If they don't like what we did they could kept the appeal if they like we did the kind of dropped Nick always come to you. With documentation what the cost shift is dispense Corbusier. That's what we need to do but in the meantime someone needs to put the dog on a leash. Before the doctors of more stuff and it's already torrent this is Bontoc and you should read my refusal notices custom point talk you need to. About both of them and their lawyers consulting about members just one member that's weighted since twenty twenty one June. A year and a half with their solar panels on their roof. And they still have been inter connected to the grid despite the law that says you shall recommend. They represent members of contempt for members. They want to subject members was another member twenty second did come to board meetings. The energy committee room there was a very wealthy farmer I like wealth wealth is good I like when people succeed the kept up his solar what do you think they did have cooked up himself or. You're listening to the muscle. But for the person that's been featured in Arkansas business a Vietnam vet who is eighteen months into so investment they will cook they don't listen to that guy they don't want to miss board room and the darn sure don't want and looking at their books so they can see if their attorney fees or more than the cost. We can have our cake and eat it too. We have a successful would nine dollar gas everything successful. Would nine dollar gas portable solar as fast as we can. Because my daughter Gascony to your constituents had off thank in Arkansas mostly. Jeannie Fort Smith is a little over expose our coops or lower exposed on gas but we're we're better than gas and most were eaten it but we're better than most but this winter we got no place to hide when that first home eating a bill comes out our reliance on natural gas wrote your constituents are going to feel it and your phone's gonna rank. Yes we need to be thinking about not kicking testimony off the record because it's two hours late and and sending a bill back to your so called members to pay for it. It's time to get real for going to take care of our people. And now this kind of litigation garbage you die you do it. So what that's what I've got to say we had costs under control amendments to the after repeated public warnings gonna mess that messed up they did it anyway now it's messed up. But we still need data you need to start with data in three cents six cents we know I mean transactions or we need to know how much the cost shift causes each consumer's bill to go up. And if it's to sentient me the last why are you wasting my time introduced may citizens would dollar and that's when you start paying attention. We were paying attention we have the right program was well balanced to get the innovation with a little bit of subsidy and where to find a subsidy out over time we had that the screwed up with a number of people because they would dismiss. That that's where we stand on the stuff now it's hard to fix it was easy to fix with agreed the two dollar gas and a small school Senate street now we have a skilled solar industry nine dollar gas and intent of federal subsidies. Now the ball's rolling too fast. Now because the policy was wrong because they screwed up the policy with you. The story out. That's exactly what happened. Somebody's with Donnelly's sure don't happen again. Thank you Sir for your time maybe that answering questions. Could you tell me how many states have the one for one. Net metering I don't know the precise number almost every state has it when it's small scale. Very few states have a one as large scale but the problem with the whole conversation on a one for one the purpose of our program. The all the the heat and now the light is in rooftop. What's magical about our program in my view is the scale. Where you have demand charges the cover the fixed costs that device drive the question. So if you have a one to one where the customer is paying a demand charge. And one to one when they're not they're not even the same. Said to me we need to measure the cost for the one for one for residential. Where the deal is probably too rich in my cellar colleagues could produce a refusal at me but they have the judgment not to do that but we need to preserve our skill program and mitigate that car shift with with storage mitigating demand chart. But it's small scale. What I want to do and I told the folks I do this we'll go do whatever you want for rooftop solar but this is what I want. I want community so I want somebody to be able to build a big facility in this field and get the cost advantages because they say rooftop solar six two expensive rooftop so as to expensive but when you say let's build and if you'll do it on his own no no we can't do that the proposed stuff limitations to keep it expensive and complain to you it's expensive what we should do is take skill same scale twenty megawatts route and residential group together with storage and see if that can do zero question that's the deal I propose but they projected that would solve the rooftop problem overnight but they don't want consumers to have the option of community solar that's the problem with that. Thank you. A. Senator Stubblefield you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman. Follow the natural gas industry for a long time twelve fifteen years we've seen natural gas thousand cubic feet yes dollar to dollar. It goes to nine. Tell us what drove that the nine. What what thank you know what trouble tonight what drove that to nine okay imagine if you have a pickup truck. Did you just bought and somebody says we're going to ban pick up trucks and ten years. Would you start thinking. I need to get rid of this pick up truck I don't want to be in a pickup truck business with the federal government said we're phasing out fossil fuels. People quit making the investment you need to get fossil fuels and the pressure that the price twenty six dollars in December of last year. Before the Ukraine invasion. When the Ukrainization drove the price of the price that Ukraine raisin took it is six dollars to nine dollars. In already spiked. You're saying that the Russian invasion of Ukraine had nothing to do with no it contributed to it. It went up a whole lot without the Russian invasion and then the Russian invasion added something to it but we already have a natural persons western Europe has has alternative solar plant in which they haven't done that much so or actually what what they've done as a whole are we in. In my view I could put a hamster wheel right here and spend it with my finger when I'm talking to you not very reliable but that doesn't cost reliability problems Intermin resources and don't cause reliability problems because reliability problems is premature retirement. What the Europeans did was. All one reliance on wind. Then when the Fukushima incident happened in Japan they shut down their nuclear in Germany. And they wanted to do as a substitute for gas. So what they did was they banded new sticker on your neck and handed the other end of it Latimer who. It on Russia's natural gas which is which is exactly what I've been saying they rushed into alternative energy way too fast I don't think rushing into alternative energy way too fast is a problem until. War no it's too you start premature retirement of other units which is done it's exactly what they've done and now they put him back on. And that is two things about California that baffled me the first thing about California is that ten years ago they said we're shutting down these gas plants because of climate change. Ten months ago they said we're turning on these gas plants again because of climate change no I accept climate science thank you Mr Carson I've made that very clear but when science doesn't work that way okay at some point saints got left behind and it was politics because science doesn't tell you to do the exact opposite thing at the same time. That baffles me the other thing that baffles me is why those people the people that think like that. Have won the popular vote in seven of the eight last national elections. It's the John Kerry questions. John Kerry didn't think much of for love telling one bush left out once we losing to these idiots how do we lose the idiots and I'll tell you how by beginning labeled as climate deniers. We played ourselves right out of the arena you know the crazies on the other side or threatening liability that's what happened in my view. I would actually stay a little more focused. Senator Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman a chairman Thomas first thank you for your presentation it picked up where are. Joint Energy committee meeting it months ago left off and I'm sad to hear. Correct me if I'm not hearing it right that no progress has been made on this issue with the the coops institutional resistance to individuals rights to put solar panels on a property not all the co ops well I don't want to and not all of them for sure so if you could help me sort that out I'd be grateful there's six so they're on the motion to refusal. All represented by the lawyer that was all through the field strategy what I hope to achieve it the energy committee at the energy committee with some degree of publicity that would help them do the right thing because if you've already waited eighteen months on your solar panels not be hooked up another eight months at the PSC and another twelve months of the of a few court doesn't really help you I was trying to move the process along course meaning that that's where the father motion so is this more of a. It's thank considered there's their interest to drag their feet on any solution that John is in my view. And the only way to change that if they don't catch the political heat for they're gonna keep doing the same thing. Well I and I always believe government including the PSC is should be the the the should not be a player should be a arbiter and that obviously we set policy based on reality and not our own Williams and if I like gas natural gas and I don't like so or vice versa or whatever that should be the driver policy per se it's got to be what is is good for the state of Arkansas in this particular case but but you. To clarify what you just said way they're slow walking this thing because there's an economic reason for them to to drag your feet are slow walking my hearing that correctly that's might be another thirty one not for profit. Well under fifty thousand dollars a year as a chief executive it's profit from well not for profits like hospitals and other big huge organizations you know what I mean and I don't fault anybody for that but that's just an organization it's no different LLC zero all right S. corporations just another way to do business hi I fall there is to members doesn't include not hooking up members the one it doesn't include excluding a performance it doesn't include like it doesn't include management running up huge attorney's fees and then sending the bills back to those members and not disclosing to them that's not in the car model as I said it initially to have a great history the electrified places that the I are you would. This is a stain on that history and they should fix it. Is there a and we're. Staring down the fall and new session in January is there a. Legislative solution that. We need to be putting in the pipeline to be dealing with when we come in and twenty twenty three when I think we need is the data first. File with data let the people with a different view but the PSE have a bite at it and come up with something and then if you all don't like it. Then I want you to fly with the data not that we don't like this because it's a subsidy Bama transaction and then you know. We we shooter transaction you know identified people with a losing record and we accidentally hit a big economic development project later down the road that that's the forty niner that's what they do we need the data first and then we can figure out the Legislative is there a legal rule or other institutional. Berrier that maybe I should turn it in backwards the or our office facility that allows them to deny the day. It. Should they provided to you today under current law and rules I think so given the howling they did about the cost shift I thought that they have reset after agreed fee they'd come running in with the data that didn't happen. And I'm sure that as soon as we filed a docket that we intend to do to ask for the date if they're not gonna fall for Griffey. Day after that there were queues because I had the audacity to talk members of the legislature about courtship. I expect that. Okay thank you for your testimony Mr thank you Mr chairman. Representative rod you're recognized. Thank you thank you Mr chairman to thank you for being here today. In a couple questions and maybe you can help with this because I'd like to know and I think the people of this state would like to know a couple answers here do we subsidize the federal government for fuel for the gasoline we use right now. Excel so cold there are there are some limited subsidies mostly related to the timing of depreciation with large investment would in my view if you're looking at federal subsidies for for fossil fuels you should also subtract from that the taxes that you pay when you fill up at the pump there some subsidies. But when you look at fossil fuel subsidies and you spread that out over all the fossil fuel industry and then you say well here's the wind subsidies and try to compare them well ones for five percent of the energy and the others for ninety five percent so it's not apples to apples there's some limited fossil fuel subsidies mostly related to the investment of timing and depreciation and stuff like that okay intent let me ask you this. We know that we've got about thirty stations across the state that. For you can charge a car yes now. If it was wherever counted for five six so that's what your trail. If you had it and you want to charge that vehicle enough to go three hundred miles do you have any idea what the lexical calls would be for the yes that's actually a very good question the problem with the electricity and when you talk to your constituents in a drive by the gas company C. four dollars a gallon the drive by the next day in a C. four twenty three like what's going on it should a move that much when you look at the price of electricity it goes up and down like a roller coaster when you try to take electric field goal charging cost and convert it to a gasoline per gallon equivalent if you charge at night. At home the per gallon equivalent is like seventy eighty ninety cents. But if you charge on peak. At four five in afternoon member the peak usage on a cost or the highest it's like fifteen sixteen seventeen so we need a rate structures are incentives so that you will you do that when it's cheap but not when it's expenses you talk about cost shift you know if you're paying your your that that cost shift if you charge and you're not paying the full cost everybody else's nets cost shift. This is the this is a very difficult thing that were sorting through we begin we need data we need to know the usage the key thing is the usage because if you use a lot more but it brings the cost down because the scale. So we need to know the usage I know that I think Ozark as a time of use rate Ozark electric coop for you fees and other utilities are looking at that we're looking at what you charge energy has a proposal to try to flat line the price of the price doesn't move but it's high enough to cover those costs but it's a projection based on usage. But you can save a lot of money if you're doing it at night. Receive your you know. Trying to get far away from home if you're trying to go to the beach or to the to the mountains are to your grand kids you know you're going to pull up whatever time you got to pull up you're going to play again if it's three or four o'clock in the morning for four o'clock in the afternoon on a hot day. Yeah. And you don't get the cost savings the time variation of electricity is extreme every not every day a lot of things. In that has to be accounted for in terms of charging you fees. That was responses to me resume have you through. All right all right thank you miss Thomas we appreciate your time here today and I appreciate you coming thank you thank you. Up next we have John Bethel director of public affairs of interest she Arkansas incorporated. John we're going to ask you yes or no questions okay. Appreciate you being here if you would state your name for the record you may proceed yes Sir Mr chairman members of the committee I'm John Bethel I'm the director of public affairs for enters the Arkansas and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you today it's been a a long afternoon I know and I'll try to do my part not to make it and do the longer and hopefully you will ask me yes and no questions but will we'll get started and I want to tell you into the Arkansas and interest corporation support sustainability and we support renewable energy in fact we've been acting on providing sustainable options for our customers for over twenty years. In two thousand interview was the first US utility to voluntarily reduce its carbon emissions. energy was one of only is only one of four electric utilities listed on the Dow Jones sustainability index and we are the only company in our sector to be on that list for nineteen consecutive years our record is is strong in this area our generation portfolio is recognized as one of the cleanest in the electric utility sector. Today our customers are reaping the benefits of energy Arkansas's efforts into the Arkansas customers have some of the lowest rates in the in the country. We are the largest solar provider in the State of Arkansas and our renewable portfolio is expected to continue growing just to be clear the the chairman I think misspoke because he indicated our interest in investing in solar and providing that to our customers started with the two ACT four sixty four in two thousand nineteen actually we were investing in solar projects well in advance of two thousand nineteen we had two projects that were proposed and approved by the public service commission in advance of that so our efforts began pre two thousand nineteen and continue and were not the result of ACT four sixty four because it addresses net metering and it doesn't address utility scale solar projects and so our projects in our commitment to that had begun and continues seventy percent of the energy consumed in two thousand twenty one for our by our customers with from zero emission resources that would include nuclear hydro and solar power. And we have partnerships with some of our largest customers to help them achieve their sustainability goals and those are driven by a utility scale solar not by a net metering for those customers. Our investments in renewable energy coupled with our existing emissions free resources and help promote and support economic development projects in Arkansas as well as retaining existing businesses we have done all this while maintaining affordable and stable rates for our customers. Our customers also benefit from our investment ended in a diverse fuel mix for electric generation energy Arkansas has generating resources that includes nuclear coal natural gas hydro and solar. The significant investments to build acquire operate and maintain the generating facilities are a key element in maintaining safe reliable affordable and sustainable power for our customers in Arkansas our plan is to continue to maintain a diverse portfolio into the future. Our investments in utility scale solar which includes plants that energy Arkansas owns as well as of the power we purchased from others have helped to meet the needs of several economic development prospects utility scale solar facilities provide a cost advantage and are positioned to deliver greater benefits to customers in general utility scale facilities present the potential to deliver the most solar resources to the greatest number of Arkansas customers at the most affordable cost. As we have said clearly for many years now and and and to be clear on this as we support our customers right to invest in private solar facilities we're not opposed to customers being able to participate in net metering. For their but good of our customers those pursuing private facilities for their individual financial benefit should pay their fair share of the cost of the utility system that continues to serve them including cost recovers through writers and surcharges we recognize that some customers including private businesses school districts and government entities have opted to invest in private third party solar solar facilities and may experience some bill savings as a result of those investments. Specifically a significant portion of the savings that those customers realized from their existing net metering facilities are driven by the existing net metering structure rate structure in Arkansas that unfairly provides a large part of their savings at the expense of all of the customers including many who struggle to pay their bills. These net metering facilities are solely for the purpose of the individual customer that owns them or subscribe to them and in some cases the renewable credits associated with those facilities may be sold and do not serve those individuals and only accrue to the benefit of the third party developer those private facilities are designed only to provide all or part of a customer's needs and are not a resource that the utility can used to serve its other customers. The utility doesn't have any control over those resources where they are or where they're located women and how they operate and women if any our is delivered to the utility net metering is a billing function for individual customers and it's not a resource available to utility to serve other customers additionally because those individual net metering customers rely on entered the Arkansas to provide them power and because solar is inherently intermittent and the sun doesn't always shine we still must ensure adequate resources are available to serve all of our customers including those who net meter. Further the commission has determined that the statute permits a customer to locate a net metering facility where ever they want and that those facilities can be remotely located from the because from where the customer's load actually is for example a customer in Little Rock can Locate a net metering facility a solar facility over fifty miles away in that instance the net metering facility simply puts power to the electric utility system and is simply a generator sitting in the field. In those instances the net metering facilities look like miniature versions of a utility scale solar farm except the cost of those kilowatt hours to our customers is significantly more expensive than any other kilowatt hours generated by the utility or made through wholesale market purchases. And we and consequently our other customers have no control over that civility when and when it puts power in our system consequently this unfairly increases the cost to the rest of our customers. Net metering is a billing policy under which the customer owns a qualifying generating facility and in other instances are able to purchase power from a qualifying facility and to supply all or part of their needs. Almost universally those generating facilities or solar power the customers you that use the electric produce from their facility to offset the electric energy they purchase from the utility that serves them such as energy Arkansas their local electric cooperatives SWEPCO or O. G. an E.. In months when the customer generates more kilowatt hours and they consume those kilowatt hours flow back to the utility and in Arkansas the customer receives a credit at the full retail rate for those kilowatt hours because those customers receive a full retail rate credit for those kilowatt hours they're not paying the full cost to serve them and are causing other customers to pay those in for infrastructure cost which causes the cost of electricity for all other customers to be higher the retail rates of electricity include the cost of generation transmission and distribution basically the cost of power plants poles wires vehicles and people required to provide service whether the net metering customers are consuming power or putting power back to the utility the utility is using it system to provide service to those customers by avoid voiding paying their fair share of the cost of the utility infrastructure necessary to serve them the net metering customers are being subsidized by the customers who do not or are not able to participate in that metering. Arkansas has among the most generous net metering policies in the country that provide the greatest benefits to the owners of private third party facilities in recent years many states have revised their net metering policies to address the issues that we are facing in Arkansas the one to one retail credit is a policy that should not continue especially in light of other net metering policy features like allowing meter aggregation generators to be located remotely and facilities as large as twenty megawatts. In totality Arkansas's net metering policy is the most generous in the south and among the most liberal in the United States far surpassing what is allowed in states like California and New York. From its beginning net metering was intended as a billing option available to customers who want to consider these private renewable agreements to meet all or part of their lektor needs we had energy support customers who want to pursue that billing opportunity but not at the expense of other customers having to pay higher bills as such it is important to establish rates for those customers installing solar systems beginning on and after July January one twenty twenty three that ensure that they pay their fair share of the cost of the infrastructure required to serve them energy and other public utilities in Arkansas have previously submitted information to the Arkansas Public Service Commission illustrating the significant cost shift that occurs when one to one retail credit is in place for net metering customers we've also presented information to the commission that shows how are properly designed grid charge would help recover at least the cost of the distribution grid that serves the net metering customers for which they avoid paying their fair share The the data has been presented to the public service commission and it's been subject to a critique and debate by opposing parties and so the information has been presented we've documented that there is a cost and we've quantified what is so what Importantly the commission's also said that it would initiated proceeding to consider whether certain utility charges should be non by passable but it is yet to open that proceeding given the more than two years that has passed since the commission said it would take that step we strongly urge the commission to follow through an open that proceeding similar to the infrastructure costs customers with private net metering facilities are able to avoid paying their fair share of important initiatives like the energy efficiency programs finally we support establishing a rate structure for net metering customers that come that come online after January twenty January one twenty twenty three The recovers the cost of serving those customers from from them and to assure ensure basic fairness for all utility customers in Arkansas and I can touch a little bit about why we didn't initiate a separate proceeding for a agreed charges one is the commission's rules under which they and an order under which they set forward that schedule that of those rules in that order are subject to legal challenge in our in our under appeal and are still subject to legal challenge so that's not been resolved so we were reluctant to move forward with the case that was on appeal also the the rule itself was unclear as far as what what steps we're going to be required and so we were waiting for for action and as I mentioned before we had previously submitted that information to the commission. On energy Arkansas's system alone there are more than four thousand net metering systems currently connected that account for sixty four megawatts of installed capacity since the legislative changes it implemented in two thousand nineteen those numbers have increased exponentially in twenty nineteen there were two hundred and eighty nine facilities added and twenty twenty there were five hundred and sixty five facilities added in twenty twenty one there one thousand four hundred seventy one systems added and so far in twenty twenty two there have been one thousand three hundred and twenty six systems added as the number of systems in the capacity of those systems continue to grow the unfair subsidy of customers with private solar generating facilities from customers. From all other customers grows as well in addition the commission has nearly eighty megawatts of net metering projects that have sought approval or have been approved since the passage of act four sixty four in twenty nineteen that may not be included in the numbers about additionally to the extent the owners of these private facilities sell the renewable attributes of those facilities and other states these facilities may not actually be considered renewable facilities for Arkansas purposes. As I noted before we are committed to providing safe reliable affordable and sustainable power to our customers in Arkansas utility scale solar facilities are a part of our diverse fuel mix that we used to serve our customers and allow us to try to deliver the most renewable power to the largest number of customers in Arkansas at affordable rates thank you again for the opportunity to address the committee and I'm available for questions. Senator Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman of Mr vessel thank you for your testimony it was very informative and there's a lot of issues that I can see coming up on the horizon that you raised I'm not really gonna jump on any of them today I do have a question peripheral to that and similar questions as I asked chairman Thomas you're familiar with the. Policy I guess is the right word by some emphasize some of the electrical option Arkansas to put a technical restrictions including commercial liability insurance on individuals who put solar panels and solar facilities on the in their home or household farm whatever of. The excuse or logic for it seems to be that there's some. Possibility of some back feed damage or something that could go to the the equipment owned by the utility. Do you. that that is a. Major possibility are you aware of lots of cases where a significant number of cases where that's happened that would justify either severely limiting that for this level of insurance what what is introduced view on that and do you require does energy require similar type of insurance or whatever we don't have a similar insurance requirement I know Mr Haston is following me on behalf of the electric cooperatives and he can probably address their insurance requirements but much much more clearly and better that I can't because I'm not really in a position to do that I can say that safety of the interconnection of the net metering facility and any other facilities that are connected to the to the electric system is important and you want to make sure and that's part of the commission approved interconnection process that we use is to and part of that is but testing and inspection of that facility by a qualified third party to back make sure that it is installed properly that it doesn't back feed to the electric utility system in the event of an outage because that's necessary to protect the safety of our workers who are out working to restore power ended in to take care of our system so the second will a support that the safety and the integrity of the interconnection process is very important and that's something that we make sure of is a part of our work with those customers of ours that used to install those facilities but as far as the the insurance requirements are certain we don't have that on our our system but the but Mr Hasting can address that from what perspective let me follow up the could Mr chairman hi I'm one of your customers. And I have a propane back up generator and settling Jon out where I live sometimes we have black it's it's much much less than. In some areas but more than we like and that's the part about being in the country which is why I have a generator if my generator I presume could create the same kind of hazard for back feeding that you were you we're discussing related to solar order so. I like to think that a competent electricians that wires it upright as we used to say this should be in negligible and I guess the other part of my question you didn't quite address is. Is there some history of problems are significant. A significant enough number of these kinds of problems that have come from solar installations in energy system there there is a history of of back feet of of things such as generators and things that proposed solar install by these companies who obviously have some liability I would think if that occurred from the outset we establish the interconnection requirements for those solar facilities and that and and again it was through a a PSC approved process but part of that again is to inspect those facilities and make sure that they are safely installed to avoid that because we we we we safety is paramount in our industry and we want our employees to go home and the condition in which they showed up for work and so we strive very hard to practice and engage in safety and one of those things we do to protect our workers is in the and the commission saw the value of that I don't think anybody disputes the value of making sure that that interconnection is done in a safe way that protects others associated with the system and so that's our that's our approach and it's been the then that way from the outset that was one of the things from the outset of that the public service commission adopted where those interconnection requirements that include the the the safe and an inspection of those to make sure that they are ready and safely operational before connecting to the system and John that's why a licensed Arkansas electricians. Pardon my generator and not me that's good that's what we want but I guess trying to pin you down on this have you assuming that people follow the law the code and the air connection requirement is set forth his or any in any instance outside that of any real it's a real problem out there how many times has this happened as opposed to theoretical of course it could and we can all think of ways that people can get around the law but has this been a real significant statistical problem and I'm not aware that it has and again as I said before it the reason why is from the outset those interconnection requirements were there before the net metering systems began to interconnect that was part of the whole starting process so fortunately there's not history because fortunately we started at the beginning and end implemented those requirements and so I don't know that there's a history of operating I don't I don't believe there is our history of operating net metering facilities without those requirements in place so I guess that would indicate that those requirements are are effective in terms of. The requirements I'm talking about actual incidents of something back feeding Census was put together obviously if you don't follow the code you don't follow the rules you have a problem right in a way that's the case but that's that's something that the the rules require and we we require is that that facility be inspected before interconnection so that it gets I'm also that we would what you're talking about I'm all for that if everybody follows the rules we don't have a problem I just can't see million dollars of commercial insurance required when you've had practically no problems are certainly not problems that couldn't be pinpointed to somebody **** up someone that should have a bond or liability insurance on their own yeah and we don't. What was I can't comment on that because you know that's not an injured the incident that would be something to address of course thank you Mr president thank you Mr J.. yes but we have no more questions we appreciate your presence here today in your testimony and of thank you very much thank you Mr chairman dismissed. Yes up next is buddy Hasting for the president and chief financial officer skews me and reading on the wrong line here. yes chief financial officer of Arkansas electric coop. Apologize to you for being so late in getting you to the table. But. If you would please identify yourself for the record and then you may proceed with any testimony may have. Hi I'm Jennifer like you know I'm a senior counsel for Arkansas electric cooperative thank you for allowing us to speak to you today. And I'm that number is that I'm the chief executive officer of Arkansas electric cooperative corporation. Mark shields and the senior director of regulatory rates in compliance at Arkansas to corporate corporation. Good afternoon it's a pleasure to be here and we didn't mind waiting learned a lot sit in the back of the room so. The. Electric coops of Arkansas just to recap there are ABCC where the wholesale provider so we are the G. in the T.. A generation transmission we provide wholesale energy to seventeen distribution costs in the State of those distribution costs are located in seventy four of seventy five Arkansas counties. And when you just sort of look at opportunity or who you know we we serve about one point two million our Kansans an inter G. and the other utilities would serve the rest and so I kind of look at us as we have we're about one third of the population we we provide the electricity but we're we're spread out into all seventy four of seventy five counties so as far as our approach to power supply and I know I was asked to testify about sort of the impact of net metering policy on those that don't have it will get there quickly. What we do we if we subscribe to a balance of power and that's kind of been our our I guess our mantra here lately and so to say that we we do believe in a diverse power supply so we are not anti renewable we're not anti solar. we believe that having a diverse portfolio helps you in all times coal prices are low you can burn coal if your gas prices go low you can transition to gas there is a certain element of renewables that are low cost energy But a really smart guy of the Robert Bryce has animal quality means actually. But I think this is a fundamental reason we're talking to the to. As he says of the electricity is not a commodity. It is a essential service critical to human life. And the issue is today the organized markets and our regulators treated as a commodity. And it's really not that and so you got a physically be able to separate a low cost electron from being able to keep the lights on twenty four hours a day and that reliability piece is sort of being left out so that's why we've been preaching balance of power but our balance of power messages No Way is anti renewable anti clean energy or anti sustainable. And just to address the the comments earlier about against chaining me up or maybe wasn't Mimi was a different co op guy but all all where the suit today since I'm here. I've I've you the government is being in power and this is a society of laws and we follow the laws. And I believe in the rule of law and so if a state trooper pulled me over on my way home from this meeting today I would pull over. No matter how irritated or grouchy I was I presume that state trooper would very calmly and very quietly asked me for my license and registration. Should I give him any guff he would probably reach over to his microphone and quietly call for back up. And he would deal with me in a very calm and controlled I am in control manner. I just I believe that the PSC has all the power it needs to do that. I believe the PSC I and I would echo John Bethel's comments although we're different business models I don't know if I would change anything about his testimony about us. so everything you heard from Mr Bethel I wouldn't change a word of that I'll just add to it. But I do believe we have provided data but I also believe that the chairman of the PSC has the power invested in him to the state of Arkansas to ask for anything he wants and we are obligated to provide it and will. So I just leave it at that with the laws soon as a cost shift so to say that there's absolutely no cost shift is probably fallacy me and the chairman of talked it many times about that cost shift so I don't think we're here today to debate whether there is a cost shift the law prohibits unreasonable cost shift and so here today were probably trying to discern what's and on reasonable cost shift how much is it so I think your presentation I'm not clicking slides but I'm going to kind of walk through it. But but I think there are really five forms of subsidies that come in to that people that participate in that metering enjoy the people that do not participate in the net metering or solar do not enjoy. One would be the federal incentive the thirty percent. Whether any of us in here have solar or not we pay taxes if you pay taxes some of that tax money goes to those federal incentives so there's thirty percent of the capital cost of that installation you are paying for but that's applied everywhere not just in the state of Arkansas I think our rate design the way I think about electric rates is the city was bill eighty years ago with all one way streets. So the electric grid was bill eighty years ago and all the streets were one way. Today we're being asked to modernize that city and we are. But we're being asked to convert all the streets from one way to two way. Right and so that is essentially what you have to do to allow net metering shall. And. To maybe speak to the technical difference I did wanna answer the senator's question earlier a generator is very different than a net metering account fundamentally and technically I have a gas generator my home to I know if I should say that to my bosses are probably listening but it the House came with it I didn't. But if it checks on there are fundamental switching that happened that presents me from back feeding to the grid I cannot turn on my generator and feed the grid today and make money off of it it's only there for my family's use if the power goes out if I'm in that metering customer by definition I have to move power two ways it has to dump out on the grid therefore it is a fundamentally different machine and there for the rules are fundamentally different from a safety perspective is different and from a ability to damage the system is different so I think I just was going to speak to that just for a moment. But our rate design these one way streets in the early days it didn't really matter what was demanded what was energy because you got off from us we split it up in rates to try to make it fair so the people that use more electrons would pay more but it wasn't an exact science and it still to this day is not an exact science and so a lot of the cost of keeping the lights on every day of the year not just when it's sunny are baked into the energy charge that goes out. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know whether the rates should fundamentally be fixed that's probably something for the PSC discuss what is a fact of the economics today. So if I even if I never over generate even if I only generate from my own house and I push back on the electric system perfectly so that zero. We know that when storm here it comes. That won't be the case and one storm your income you're gonna be cranking on your house and you're gonna look to me to fill it with electrons and that is what you're avoiding. Because if you pay zero electric bill. I still have to have enough horsepower I still have to have enough power enough transmission lines and the transformers to feed everyone in the family when they ask for it and they're going to ask for it in the dark of night in the cold of winter when there isn't a ray of sunshine to be found. And that is what drives the cost that's what drives how big I have to be I don't want to be any bigger than I have to be that's why we do integrated resource planning that's why we do these power studies that's what we submitted to the PSC to make sure we're not over building an over printing costs but if you can push back on your energy. Then you don't pay your fair share of that so that's a subsidy. If you get over compensated for that energy. I can buy energy from the solar field at three cents a kilowatt. I turn around and sell it to my members at about four point four cents because my salary my building all the everything is a mark up so there's something called avoided cost so it distribution co op CEO can by an excited electron for me for four to five cents a say five cents. And he turns around and sells it to a retail customer for ten yes he's paying for that whole market for the distribution system but now he's forced to purchase it and it's a new wants to say whether I pay you a dollar or I give you a coupon they both work the same way a credit or a dollar it's a credit on your bill that you don't have to pay and so the the fundamental concept that a distribution co op House is forced to pay double for an energy supply then they would need to pay and in the concept of pay is there putting credits on their books but it's revenue they're not collecting it's a nuanced but it's the same thing and I'm an engineer not in the county. So the reality is that is a that over compensation. Is a subsidy and in another big one is the time shift of energy use. The what sets the size of a net metering systems about how big your home is but that's set on sort of your the basic engineered here's how much you use your time that you're going to over generate or make more power than your home uses is going to be in April may and June and probably in the September October early November it's cool it's relatively mild humidity is low you're not burning lots energy at your home but your solar arrays are still getting signed and you're stacking up credits on your utilities books. When you call back for those credits it's going to be in the dark of night during storm your. Today if I'm making power for the co ops and making it fifty dollars a megawatt. During storm Yuri I was buying power from S. B. P. at four thousand five hundred dollars a megawatt so you're putting it on my books when I'm paying fifty but I'm paying it back to you when I'm paying four thousand. That's a time shift of energy. That is valuable the only other way to achieve it without using our accounting systems to buy a battery. Now if you put on solar panels and you install a battery and you disconnect from the grid there is no cost shift at all. You are fully independent and I would agree that is a perfect ecosystem of zero cost shift. But nobody does that because it's freakishly expensive and hard to do with today's technology maybe someday it'll be easier to do I'm a I'm a nuclear power guy an energy guy I I would Jensen's what my jet pack guy I can't wait till that day comes but it's not here. And then the fifth subsidy that's probably not in your presentations taxes. Everybody pays taxes every time meter spend what they pay for me pays taxes and what the people buy from them tax tax tax but none of this is taxable none of it's taxed it's all living under the tax you don't there's no tax on any this energy so that is a subsidy that a soul or user against that a non participant doesn't. And then why do we get sort of passionate about it so that were referred to as dogs that need to be put on a leash. The most common scenario for people that can afford to net meter they do have a land. They do own property in the most likely scenario for people who cannot enjoy these subsidies are people that live in manufactured homes and people that rent their property and therefore they do not have permission from a landlord nor to make any financial sense to spend eighty thousand dollars improving your landlord's property and so for us be a coop looking at every member fairly and I do believe we do care about our members of our Hammer power characterized. We have fundamentally pushed back on the I would call it the morality of having a regressive subsidy where the wealthiest people in our system and I love wealth to and I think everyone should aspire to get as successful as a can of our state as possible but to have that payment really coming from the pockets of those that can least afford it because it has to come from somewhere the power plants I operate have to be there for that dark cold night and they're not going away and somebody has to pay the bills and if other people avoid those bills that sprays out over under the other people and that's exactly what John told you and much more elected language. So the If you want to compare and contrast when you talk about the full retail rate we've advocated for avoided cost you hear people talk about two channel billing but avoided cost takes the wholesale price and adds a bit to it and I think we we've advocated for that versus full retail Arkansans for Rita California is two to three cents below for retail. I think California is always used as the Canary in the mine shaft for a net metering policy New York is avoided cost Missouri is avoided cost Mississippi is avoided cost plus two point five cents Louisiana is avoided cost Oklahoma is of what it costs in Tennessee does not have a net metering law so I think John was very correct to say that we have a very generous policy in our state. I look at the R. over compensation it was like I said it's about ten cents per kilowatt if you're paying if you're if you're crediting a full retail we would say it's about five point four cents to credited at avoided cost right now in a B. about three cents if it that my cost so. The when you talk about the concept that the coops are not supporting. Solar we're converting our city with one race streets into two way streets I would add is that I would enter this into my testimony day to day on co op wires we have three thousand three hundred and seventy six net metering customers I am one third the size of inter G. that's the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room I'm the little girl in the room. Enter G. has two thousand seven hundred and sixty seven of this is data as the end of twenty one John Ross more recent data that includes this year we haven't accounted for the eight months of twenty two but little all co ops that have one third of the citizens of the state have more net metering customers the largest utility in the state and almost more net metering customers than all of the investor owned utilities combined. So I think we've embraced the technology we're embracing the challenges of upgrading and modernizing a grip that was built for power to go to homes we're trying to deal with it the other way. This is a more read a question you asked me was what is the subsidy. I would tell you that at the wholesale level because I do not have visibility into my sixteen owners they're independent companies they have their own CEOs are on boards of directors I can speak for a ECC and then I can become a good engineer and I can use the law of ratios to get your close but what I can tell you is that as we measure it the revenue we're not collecting by having that these met net metering customers in twenty fifteen we will set it was a hundred ninety five thousand dollars and said Mister chairman Thomas's point probably in the noise. by twenty eighteen that a grown to nine hundred and forty thousand dollars probably still annoys by twenty nineteen the year at four sixty four when it popped up to three point three million dollars in twenty twenty it's five point one and twenty twenty one it's eight point three and these are not additive these are each year so it's going up so you at all these numbers together to say this is been the total revenue lost in probably by twenty twenty two using John's map will probably be looking at ten million dollars and I represent half of the cost so if you were to just do a ratio to say I'm five sense of the problem the distribution costs at the other five cents what's that total impact you could probably do something to double it and get close and so I think that is in general what we would say that's the impact that has to be made up by the customers that do not have the solar panels When you look at another piece of our policy in Arkansas we allow up to twenty megawatts and as John said it can be located it doesn't have to be near your load most states say you can that meter but your panels in your house and your meter and everything have to be co located that's been same piece of property. If you can put a fifty miles away then you're able to take your product to market using all that copper and transformers along the way and pay nothing for it that's why there's a co location law in most states you can't just put it anywhere and it can't be aggregated you can't aggregate every meter in the state against a bunch of solar panel somewhere else in the state because it really really uses the infrastructure at a much higher level than just a homeowner putting it behind the meter. So if you look at our state we allow up to twenty megawatts and that is huge one of my smallest power plants is twenty megawatts that's a power plant that's what let's so as we have open Elkins purple the federal government says I have to mandatorily purchase up to five megawatts so if anybody wants free access to the system the federal government says I am obligated to take their power I have to pay them avoided cost and I have to do that up to five megawatts beyond Feb megawatts different rules kick in but here we allow up to twenty megawatts which is four times the federal limit. The other states the highest I can find was Delaware that allows two megawatts other than that California allows one megawatt wife one hundred kilowatt New York two megawatt Washington one hundred kilowatt Louisiana and Oklahoma three hundred megawatts. So. The save it you can get these really really big systems up there it is is it's a significant way to push a lot more this a lot faster and I understand their rationales and reasons for wanting to diversify and get solar started in the state and I think I would agree that these policies did that I've shown that I think but the question is where do you go today we have sixty five megawatts as of twenty twenty one of capacity of net metering accounts installed on co op wires. All the other utilities in the state combine all of the utilities combined have sixty three. So the co ops have more solar energy rolling on our wires and everyone else in the state come by. So. If you use my peak load my summer peak this summer was about twenty six hundred megawatt even if I use the highest we've ever seen during storm your innocence eight three thousand we would say solar penetration of these numbers were at two point five percent penetration that means of my peak load ever how much of that council or push against its at two point five percent as of the end of twenty one. At the current growth rate we believe it's going to have five percent twenty twenty four. Mississippi is a resist a reference there next door to us they capped their solar penetration of three percent so beyond three percent that's the cap that you can't but no more in. Today I was doing some googling lad time available to me back there California's penetration is thirteen to sixteen percent depending on which region you're in and that thirteen to sixteen percent resulted in all the alerts are coming out last night were people were holding on by their fingernails the hope they didn't have to shut off the Jews so what's the right number because I've heard that number I don't know most of the states tend to be three four maybe five percent and then you shut it off is it should be full mature if you go beyond that into the realm of Colorado's to go into the rounds of taxes if you go to the rounds of California you probably start to see some of Roshen of these other issues or liability and finally I think the last point for us is where do these programs and. And I can't find a state in the union I can't find a good nation on the globe and I was in the navy twenty years and I've sailed around the world. But I am not aware of a place in the universe. That has pushed itself away from diverse power supplies and went all in on renewables where they have a cheaper more reliable system. Both of those metrics get broken California's rate for electricity twenty three cents a kilowatt ours is ten this is an area that I would love to be a forty niner low cost reliable power it helps new core and go help big river steel we're we're not foolish we understand the need for sustainability in the system the need to modernize and I think we're doing that but I do believe that how we do that matters and who pays for matters and that has been the sole issue and why we would probably get caught up in some of the things that we pretend to traditionally really have never come out of our quiet sleepy burrows FOR and so I just purchased your time today. Thank you. Okay okay Center subtle you're recognized yeah I just have one question up can you tell me what the typical a coal fired plant how many megawatts they produce verses let's say a two thousand acre so far so another data point I took a lot of notes I don't want to bore you. We we have a solar company as well so that I'm it takes six to eight acres to make one make a lot of power so the gentleman that asked the question earlier if we replace the five hundred megawatt power plant coal or gas with solar that would take three thousand to four thousand acres of land that's just it's it's just the density of the sun is only so dancers only so much for taking energy per square foot so it takes even a modern solar panels sixty eight acres I am building a one hundred and twenty two megawatt solar field right now in Woodruff County modern technology best you can buy in that property we purchased eight hundred acres to build that. Four hundred and twenty two megawatts. Because not all of it can have solar panels you gotta have a fence around it you got to have roads to do maintenance you got it you know so you can't just all be solar panels you have to have a facility there so we took a hundred acres of cropland because it was crop land owned by a German agriculture conglomerates that own land there we're taking out of commission to use it for power and the average coal fire plant produce six eight hundred megawatts the depends on age of the plant in Arkansas enter Jeez plants that we are co owners with them white bluff and independence they are each eight hundred so independents one is eight hundred independents two is eight hundred there like eight thirty a white bluff one white left to their eight hundred each. I heard a question asked about China China is not walking away from coal China is not reducing emissions in as you and I sit here right now China has thirty three thousand megawatts of coal under construction they have nine hundred and forty six coal plants in operation and they are moving toward eleven hundred so the of a Levin hundred before their their build out plan is done China currently emits more CO two from code and all the rest of the world combined going up hyperbolic Lowery so to say that that that that G. paying his energy strategy is I am not going to let go of my based on resources until all this other technology is true proven to be good I don't subscribe to the Chinese of presidents political or social agendas but I would say that is energy policy is spot on. US senator Johnson you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman up mistress thank you for your testimony it was very good I appreciate it of. I don't want to get into the full regulatory thing about how. You made some great points or concede those to you I still come back to think that I'm I'm I'm looking at When you're talking about your voted costs or what's retail and what hello all this that major basically it's it's a number and that number moves in it without being my wife tells me I used to committee rude analogies but at the heard the one about this fellow that asks the lady if she would go to bed member million dollars she said I don't know maybe so what about for one dollar and she is what I think you think I am in his answer she's well we've already Goshen that now we're just working on the prize I know this is a lot more complicated than that and I don't want to get into the numbers are. To get into the process part because that's what we're really I think working on today Chairman Thomas in the PSC are they they have the lease because they're the judge they're the ones that one. I must say the consumers a lot of people claim to represent consumers I think the hundred thirty five of us actually do but others claim to say we you know have some moral authority but and then the utilities both Bester on the member on the committee as they come in and talk to you tell you to talk to them and then they they balances out so he should and does have the lease but the thing I really want to bear down on ask you and I'm. They were really get a satisfactory answer yet and you tell me you're an engineer makes me hopeful that might actually get it from you I'll try What is the technical justification for telling these customers specifically some who are indeed members of a coop that when they made these huge investments in solar equipment that they can't come up without some ridiculously to me hi insurance requirements can you tell me why that is and why when others including inter G. don't have that how you can justify that yeah I think I can get you to watch required I don't know if I can get you to the exact amount or what that insurance costs or who could probably won't argue with you over the numbers close enough on conduit inter G. is is a shareholder stockholder owned company all other capitals raised that way or through debt service but it's all it all is all shareholder based as a cooperative and so that's all other capitals coming out of the commercial markets I understand the that clarify my question I'm not asking about the business model difference between an investor owned utility I understand that I'm asking is an engineer the technical difference of why. You can justify this is about electricity and and Health current flows and flows back how can one. Seller say we need a million dollar insurance policy let you do this and the other seller says we don't need. Yeah and the fundamental difference and it does get to business model which gets too fist fight funding streams that we can use. the coops have traditionally been able to use USDA funding so federal government funding and chairman Thomas alluded to this in his comments there is a requirement in the are US financing this says you have to have an ID are in your ID or you need to have an inspection program and insurance now it doesn't specify the dollar amount but there is a reason why these certain coops because there are U. S. borrowers they do have the requirement it's it's it's new the city we used to be one way streets were finding our way with Tuesday two way streets I think there's still a lot of discussion on what is reasonable insurance what do carriers provide instance most bigger the bigger company in the state is inter G. and they don't have that requirement then therefore you don't probably have a very mature insurance markets used to just providing this product and for products that are less common and more rare the underwriters probably don't understand the risk profile with it but it's not zero risk of it be giving it away so what you can say this when you ask the question what's the probability of this happening ask an underwriter. Ask the guy that's insuring your house I have never suffered a home fire yet by law I'm required to Kerry insurance on my home if I want to get a loan. I've never suffered a home fire my fifty four years on the plan doesn't seem a problem to me but I'm required to Kerry insurance but how much I have to pay for insurance is all driven by underwriters and risk so whoever's offering these products they've priced the risk not me I'm not the risk expert I'm not in the insurance industry but the products that are put out there this is what they charge in I would say they probably charge a lot for industries they don't have a lot of data on and I would I would submit that that's probably why some of these rates seem very high compared to a homeowner policy and I think that's the that's the rub in trying to figure out what's the right amount of insurance I think that is probably something that everybody's working through but I don't think there's an intent to create this you have to have a billion dollars of insurance so that you can't have sole or in our in our on our coop wires and I would just say the numbers speak for themselves we got more net metering counts and everybody else individually in darn near everyone else in the state so I just don't think it's fair representation to say that work where these horrible people pushing back against solar my job is not to look to my members and take something out of their hand that they want my job is to give my members the best education possible so they want the right things and that's how I approach it okay I appreciate your answer and Mister chairman with that before I yield back my time I want to say that I feel like I am like the others in these I'm still wondering around with that lamp maybe in joint energy committee I continue to seek the answer to my questions thank you for your much thank you for your time and thank you and I promise was prepared to give you that exact data but the vast me again in public I probably have thank you thank you we appreciate your testimony today and your dismiss thank you very much Sir you'll have a good day. UP next is Joe Tucker vice president of esco processing and recycling. Joe root I think you should be Jo Jo but your patient man. Esco is a well known recycler in the State of Arkansas of. And the we appreciate you being here today and if you would please state your name for the record and and we have an opening statement go ahead. My name is Joseph Tucker of vice president business development for esco processing recycling I appreciate the time to be here I realize it's late and so I have some prepared thoughts but I'd rather just dispense with them and answer your questions if if that's alright with you. I think the the just the what ject just of what I was gonna say is that. You know solar panels. Our electronics and just like televisions they are considered universal waste as we heard before so they're not prohibited from going to the landfill and we think that's probably all right but we should also regulate other electronics from staying on a landfill. Would be the simple way to solve it. Okay the Joe do you know anybody that is recycling panels in the United States right now yes we have we have that it's a robust market right now it is not locally something that's robust what we hear is that you know people are taking and we are participating in parts of the market small sectors of the market but essentially manufacturing. agreements. Our what is handling on the on the large scale the the decommissioning of panels. No it is recycling is it cost prohibitive I mean can you. So we are testimony earlier today about the the cost was way more than what was you were able to minerals in the metals you were able to get out of it. Well the challenge with recycling anything is that of you're talking about based commodities you're also talking about products so we're on sort of the razor's edge in electronics recycling between is this a microphone or is this a jumble of copper and magnets right so if this is a mac microphone maybe somebody wants a microphone if not I've got it Terry part unscrew it hit with a hammer and then put it in separate boxes. Which are much less valuable than the original microphone so. As mixed. Elemental. Products it is difficult to it's it's not quite like paper cardboard aluminum right we have to put high inputs of labor or mechanical devices to bear to to separate them all so. To say that the recovery of a panel today is going to be the same as what it was five years ago or what will be twenty years from now it is almost impossible without tracking. The device market. you know model by model by model. So that's a long way to say nobody knows exactly what the recovery value of a solar panel will be ten years from now or five years from now right. So that a lot of the in Arizona we have a partner that specializes in solar of decommissioning and recycling and they are making most of their money from solar panels not from the recovered commodity value but from service agreements and actually from you know unit the. Redeployment parts harvesting or aftermarket resale of the and. Is this the one that was in the Los Angeles Times the article I don't believe so okay they were in Tucson and they were shipping from of California over their neighbors saying they were costs the twenty five to thirty dollars a panel to recycle. You I mean by the time you take shipping in and depending on you parse out which specific model they were talking about recovering from it I'm not gonna judge somebody else's statistics on that until it's our crews and our lines that are processing and material we actually don't focus on it right now we really focus mostly on data. Security and data destruction and you know data bearing devices computing remarketing and and refurbishing so it is a market were watching pretty clear carefully and we do know that it's going to grow you know and I think Arizona estimates they're gonna be put online they have been putting online about two hundred megawatts a year and by twenty thirty they think they're going to be taking out of service and into the waste stream approximately that much maybe more per year So the cumulative total of deployed panels is going to eventually create a fairly significant way stream now is that we stream more problematic than any other Unifor universal waste that we already have unregulated and the answer is no if we look at these television panels right. There's no rule in Arkansas that says I couldn't take a flat screen TV went out and check it in the landfill and so the recovery of that is something valuable is in there and something you know toxic is in there both materials are in their value will and toxic and the truth of I think most of the truth lies in in the weeds with electronics and including solar panels that there is both high value recovery there is also problematic. At chemistry and electronics. Representative baby you're recognized for a question but my question and I guess with the gasification plant that we're working down in south Arkansas in Chico county are the regulations are or would there be a problem with taking the solar panels and and running through that gasification process that in turn generates and produces electricity back. That's a dangerous question answer someone deferred to somebody who knows more about against the case in the ninety one not I mean I was just thinking that they are there alternatives that are less expensive than the manual process of disassembling electronics and and things along those lines I just enough that would be a of viable process for. The disposal solar panels it could be it it's more likely that that would be a way to lose that we would lose some value from the materials in them that way so economics is going to drive the recycling of panels right right now what we see is producers or or manufactures want to recover their own materials because the value of those materials is worth putting the cost into for them directly what I would caution against is. painting all of the devices with a broad brush so if I say the word televisions when I'm talking about recycling that's you know you have to think of the history of televisions to say what problem is recycling handling when it talks about televisions and I think we will be quickly and we are actually are in the situation where not all solar panels are the same so there's been panel there's the the significant portion I think are still You know. Crystalline silicon then waiver and that in and so that the way we handle them is different depending on how we do it and in tearing them apart we actually expose some of the most valuable parts of them the silicon to contaminants and render it value list so you have to be very careful when we say. Is there a problem with solar panels because I think there probably is less of a problem than is perceived. In general electronics waste I'll just get this out there it. We only make up about two percent of the land fill volume but in electronics themselves accounts for about eighty percent between seventeen eighty percent of the toxic metals so. Electronics in the waste stream is a problem it's admirable to be dealing with it I don't think that solar panels in a number of a in and of themselves are more problematic than the other devices we have out there. Our. Thank you.