City, County & Local Affairs Committee- House

We'll call this meeting to order of a city county local affairs if you would like to speak to testimony today down to my left here ask you to sign up at this time. Of those wishing to speak today I ask you to speak into your microphone so people can hear you. And no we've got a pretty large agenda today so uh I think will move into this pretty quickly here. Of at this time I'd ask representative Watson. The representative Pilkington has requested to pull this bill down for today so H. B. 1014 represent Watson would you. Please identify yourself and you may proceed. If you have a guest there I would ask that they identify themselves also thank you co chair fight us good to be here coach a chair fight culture Nicks have a guest here I am state representative Danny Watson go ahead. Kevin Cleghorn president of the Arkansas State corners Association. Thank you Mr house bill 1014 it has to do with the deputy corners to make sure they're trained they're able to obtain their at least obtain their medical that their minimum qualifications they have to get done to do their job. Kevin Cleghorn came to me actually over a year ago he's a representative we're having tremendous problems keeping our guys certified qualified we wanna make sure we get this done there it didn't seem to be hardly any problem at all with the regular quarters of so many of the corners as you all know may be associated may be employed with the funeral home may have their own standalone office but again the the this addresses the specifically the deputy corners we want to make sure with their job they do it right they do that correctly because is he fixed everybody of at this time uh my S. to Kevin if he has some more specifics if he could in there should be questions later to go ahead and comment. Thank you Mr chairman the what we're asking to do today is clean up some of the language from a previous bill we've we've already got the the education established but when covid and hit us we wound up not being able to educate our deputy corners and corners adequately because we could meet in person and the way the law was written we could not obtain online training and that's what we are we are working towards all the agencies that participate in our education came together including the department of public safety and found a program the American board of medical legal death investigation which is the national standards has multiple online partners that the courses that that they have already approved 40 are courses that that fit the criteria that we teach here in the state of Arkansas and and what we're asking the committee and and the house to do is approve the the wording to allow online training as well as the in person training so we can accommodate some of our counties especially are smaller counties who may only have one or 2 employed in that office and can't get away for the the actual in person training so that's what we're asking today and that's what this bill will do Sir. Are you ready for questions yes if there's any questions of the free. Okay representative skeet shooting represent Dalby would you measure but again. Thank you Mr you're recognized thank you Mr chair up represent Watson in. In your guest. This will show my ignorance I don't know much about a death and that I mean Hendren out to investigate a death are you. Are you assured or feel confident that your online courses are adequate enough for maybe somebody who is an office to the field can understand what they're doing or are you planning a mix of in person and online I mean can kind of outline what you're for seeing this today because I would hate for somebody who's new to this and all they get some online and there's no hands on if that's what you do I mean could you maybe go a little bit more in depth with your plan is absolutely representative of you if you don't mind I'm going to yield to Kevin on there for the for the specifics. Thank you yes ma'am we we are. The the programs that we are looking at the American war medical legal death investigator switch I actually sit on the advisory panel for the a BM D. I I said on the continuing education panel and when some about one of our roles as the Advisory Council Education Committee is to review the criteria review the curriculum and then to determine if that meets national standards and then approve that so the programs that we are looking at have been approved by the national standards now we are also so they they will meet the criteria and meet the educational standards they need we are also encouraging still the online the in person for skills training as far as actually processing crime scenes and you're actually going with the detectives and a counterparts from a leader the instructors from Lee that we do a phenomenal skills lab in that program and you know so we are still encouraging that as well as our our crime scene photography class which also has to be in person so so we are we're looking at blending both of them but this meets the 40 are criteria that we don't lose deputy corners in our counties. Okay I representing the Clinton you're recognized. Thank you chairman so as similar following up on represent all these questions there's nothing in the bill that requires that there is in person training is that correct. This is in the wording here it's not requiring the the in person it requires one or the other that is what that is what this is going to end it and is that the industry standard than it is yes ma'am thank you. Okay any other questions. Seeing no other questions of of a Kevin I see that you're signed up to speak for this bill do you want to speak for this bill. Absolutely. We have we have I to date. 295 deputy quarters in quarters across the state of Arkansas has. Been through this program 259 have successfully completed the remaining of those lack one or 2 classes to to complete that but have for whatever reasons have been unable to attend the actual classes the the opportunity to to be able to do that online and not not have to leave it will be absolutely. Of the most benefit tired retired deputy corners and it all and it too will also be reimbursed by the state as well and the homeowners association so so there's no out of pocket expense for those deputies even for the online program. Okay Mr Clark or would you be willing to question absolutely. Thank you Mr walk I'm sorry represent what you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I'm not a question motion property. Thank you. Okay. I see no other questions we appreciated is there anyone that like to speak against the bill. Seeing none represent walls will of Watson would you like to close for your bill yes well I appreciate a good vote and I have closed the bill thank you. Representing Whitaker you're recognized at this time. You pass I have a motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Seeing none all in favor say aye. Those opposed say no. Graduation your passion bill here. Okay next up we have we're gonna pass over HB 1031 my bill we have will will work to do on it and at this time House Bill H. B. 1067 representative Andrews you're recognized to. Speak your bill. Please identify yourself for the record and also. Your guests of their please identify himself thank you Mr chairman I represent what enters. And. $90. You got me area Matthew still into the Arkansas professional firefighters. You may proceed thank you Mr house bill 1067 what I thought would be non controversial bill really ruffled some feathers nonetheless what this does this removes the Red Sea requirements for full time paid departments if you read this bill there's exemptions for volunteer departments or any type of combination departments so apartment that's not full time paid that uses any type volunteers bills and the category paper call type people you know those people are exempt or anyone who has responded in a timely manner this is for departments who are fully staffed at all times you know they're 0 percent pay the running volunteers and we've we've seen many cases of where people who live outside of the residency requirement radius get hired on shall work and do the job or terminated because of the fact they simply live too far away from the fire station someone referred to Mr Charles now we can discuss more on this bill yeah and 1 of the things we did we we we crafted this in mind with the volunteer fire service will come to this with the volunteer fire service in mind a lot of volunteer fire departments I think. With the exception of maybe one I think everybody in here has a volunteer fire department in their districts most of the state is protected by a volunteer fire departments and a lot of those departments they need a professional guys who volunteer on their days off if you look at a city like Little Rock we have the Chief of arch street east and shared in lone oak west Pulaski I'm sure I'm leaving some out my cat my former captain who is now retired he was the chief of drizzle or Department it It met if you know where that is that's up and and in the Ozark mountains and he was a little rock firefighter he showed up to work on time did a good job he was a good firefighter. And so what we are trying to do here is not allow cities to enact policies that would harm other municipalities and their fire departments because what what if if they have little right does that it's still the most attractive are finding jobs in the state with the best benefits people will look relocate for and that what you're doing then as you're forcing people to volunteer on their days off to choose between remaining a volunteer in the rural community that they choose to serve on their days off and moving to fire to little rock to to satisfy in an arbitrary requirement. In in order for something like this to stand up to to a judicial test it has to have a compelling governmental interest and we've carve those out here what he talked about we have a combination of armature volunteer department your pay per call type type positions we have car those positions out any kind of residency requirement it has to have it has to be job related to the position in question and consistent with business necessity there is no business necessity in the larger cities that have fully staffed fire departments and so what we're trying to do here is we're trying to protect people's rights to live really want people's rights to show up and do a good job you know be a firefighter and also on their days off serve in a volunteer capacity. Thank you and as was a. This is more this is you also causes as an employment issue No Way so letting people live really want to live and work what I want to work with our performance great you know pay benefits if you want to by far by far you're if you want to a medical code 0 medicals but if you want to live in slang counting or north Pulaski County or anywhere else you know you can do that then this will this bill allows. Without penalty. Presenters you're ready for questions yes okay. The representative Dalby you're recognized thank you Mr chair representative injuries can you explain to me why you think it's important for this committee to do away with local controlled cities or counties may have in regards to a firefighters or anything else we tend to like at least it's been my experience legislature doesn't typically step in to a local control issue could you explain what the over arching or reason why we would step in to local control in this case. Yes yes representative so server on this bill. I'm generally favorable controlled a lot of times this is up to city councils not every city council's gonna take this up or want to take this up or think this is it is a big issue and so some may see this as circumventing local control but this is just being fair and open employment for everybody. Yeah and and to this point local control is important but it it shouldn't extend so far as to allow one municipality to enact policies that harm another smaller municipality. Okay representative Whitaker you're recognized thank you Mr representative or Mr Stallings of. I'm curious do you can you cite any cities in the State of Arkansas that implemented such a residency requirement. There are cities that do have residency requirements and they have been carved out because they do have a compelling governmental interest in doing so because of like take the the city parable they have won because they rely on call backs they have guys who were there staffed during the day but you know if you have like a large fire or something like that they have to have volunteers who respond and they have to respond in a timely manner the issue is here is that you when you have a larger city like Little Rock who tries to do this every single year they could be one election cycle away from enacting a policy like this and if they do that and it hasn't immediately immediately harmful affect on surrounding cities that depend on volunteer firefighters and have. Firefighters who do both jobs firefighters were career guys on on there your you know the regular day job and the guys who on their off days volunteer and surrounding communities because they would then have to relocate either to the county or the city and they can no longer serve in a volunteer capacity. Follow up Mr. Yes thank you Sir of. So you're telling me any of that do you currently have a resident require are already carved out of the bill. Yes like the ones that have residency requirements like Malvern I believe has one I think it's 30 minutes because they do they depend on on call that larger cities that have fully staffed departments they don't so there's really there's no business necessity reason to have anything like a a residency requirement. Thank you. Representative right you're recognized thank you Mr chairman Hillman could ask you questions the situation that that were in here with this bill is it is part of the reason or all the reason because within an area you're having trouble finding someone is qualified to actually do the job so I would. Like I said I think everybody in here with the exception of one has volunteer departments in your district. You should go back in and talk to them ask them how recruitment is going to ask them how retention is going and they're gonna probably say it's not going well and then ask them if they have guys who are paid fire department paid firefighters who also volunteer in their department and the province AS. The president right to Lawrence your questions you ought mother's day job his counterpart Department of full time part of are there any. But not until I got hired on back in July of 21 for for 5 years before that they were not fully staffed and so it is hard to find people within your own community. Well it's it's our time work workers or anything really especially hard for someone who wants to go through the training and get the knowledge and experience and wants to be a partner in and also to that point the city little rock with these the cap there hire of their application process at 500. Now we we don't even get 5 other people applying take the test. Representative right you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman I was gonna ask an almost identical question what representative rob was asking with your great seems like it would it would unnecessarily restrict the pool of potential applicants so I'll to 2 different questions. Because I'm not familiar with this what happens if the seat what happens to existing firefighters if the city implements a residency requirement for someone who lives outside of the city would they. Are they grandfathered in typically or would they be forced to move would it would just apply to existing applicants our future applicants will right I would have been handled so there and you you can see it both ways there's are there situations where they grandfather in anybody who is you know currently not outside the city and it just applies to you know new applicants or their situations within a time frame where they have to relocate in order to keep the job and neither one of those is good because you know if you have a situation where people are grandfathered in and it's only place the new hires will now you've created 2 separate classes a firefighter you have one who's free to live in and go to church and other kids go to school wherever and then you have one that is required to live within a certain you know proximity their job and it just as a pretty big fairness issue. Thank you. All represented the group you're recognized thank you thank you of. The residential per the requirement is that you you're trying to get lifted their I'm assuming that it was an input that some of the smaller fire departments or I have a small amount of people there in time so they want to be able to call the other fire fighters end when they have a major fire so this is going to affect my correct this could affect that that those firefighters of live far enough out could not get there quick enough no Sir this is exempted those fire departments. I'm sorry this does not apply to those fire departments. It doesn't apply to ship small towns that have a no Sir it It no this does not apply to small towns that have a residency requirement for the situation you just you just explained if the if there if like I like I said the example of the city a parable they have their daytime staff and they have you know guys who have to respond if they have a you know an incident and so they have to live within a certain radius because they have to respond in a certain you know time certain time this does not apply to them this will not affect them anyway so smaller city can have a a a. You have to live within so many miles on that car would be allowed under this bill yes Sir that is a condition that currently exists in Arkansas it's it's fairly common does it would not affect that thank you. Representative Cavenaugh you're recognized thank you Mr chairman. I make sure. Usually when representative Whitaker was asking the question about what cities does affect you never came up with city what cities will this affect what cities already currently that this bill is designed to address restricts. The residency. There was it I was looking issue. All time certain time here to go there's firefighter who was hired on 11 Conway I got hired on an old rate of all residents live to their research requirements you shown to work every day doing his job very very well the terminating him about 23 months after they hired him because they found out he lived in Conway builders since live to their rescue requirements. What exporters yeah and that is that is a good example and I mean it was is a situation where that that's not an ideal commute but if you showing up to work on time and he does a good job that's all that matters okay but but the bottom line is they risk they lifted their restrictions so they're not that this bill does not apply to them because they have no restriction so what town currently restricts that's what I'm asking why we need this bill if there's no town do it because you have situations like the City of Little Rock that tries to do it every single year at the city council level we're trying to prohibit happening because of it does it would have immediately harmful affect on surrounding departments why would it have an effect on surrounding departments because applicants would be forced either choose between remaining a volunteer and serving in the rural community where they live or relocating to the city of little rock. Or whatever or whatever city went try to enact this it would if it basically creates an applicant backing where you have these you have can I ask where you where you live I live in North Little Rock and where do you serve as a firefighter I live in Little I certainly have okay thank you. Reserve can not to further answer questions I don't have a list of top my head of cities that an actress but I know there are some and I think there's some in Northwest Arkansas but I'm just. I'm not for sure I don't have my commitment Memphis Tennessee had one and it hurt it hurt with recruitment and retention and so the state of Tennessee stepped in and enacted some similar to what we're doing. The representative Dalby you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair the kind of thinking as to what representative Cavenaugh a representative would occur I have brought up of. I guess I guess my question is. You know if the if a city wants really have 2 questions one of the city wants to. Dilute their applicant pool or narrow it down that's you know there it in essence going to cut your nose off to spite their face but one should we as a legislature keep them from making that decision can you I keep coming back to that why should we limit them from making that decision yeah that's the decision they're elected officials want to make may not be the best decision but that's their decision can you. I just having a hard time getting past that can you help me with that. I would say. Even if the city council wants to do that and and hurt themselves you know. It would want this store dating to the state of Arkansas to protect our Kansans and make sure people who want to be firefighters who want to go to be qualified and work in other departments you know given the opportunity and let them have the equal opportunity employment as well. Follow up Mr. Yes go ahead in one other question I had re reading your bill I read it numerous times to understand your carve outs and all that seems like the easy out for anybody would be have one volunteer fireman and that we cut our carbon now would not. Technically yes okay thank you. Residuals would you measure but again please. I want to make on the hi you're recognized sorry. I've spent 35 years of volunteer fireman in a paid fireman of working EMS for over 20 years I see the point they're going out with this bill I feel like. The verbiage is what's got a lot of folks on the on the subtitle here to prohibit municipal fire departments and fire protection districts from having a residency requirement for certain firefighters. I'm hearing from a lot of my fire chiefs who had the smaller departments. That are hung up on that they're not getting to the point. Where the carpet that so. I guess my point is that quote right there is is probably where there's a lot of folks struggling. So that out there. Okay representative right you're recognized thank you Mr chairman generally master this is are not an advantage to a firefighter. Living in the area that they serve. You're right I mean. Thank you there is there is there is no there you know the people and all that. Take my Department city Camden we have 27 full time people okay 9 percent and. There's 10000 or less people and so you might say well we can find 27 guys 10000 people. But when you break down to the age range and people who are healthy enough for the job and everything else it's hard to find applicants and like that is taking us for 5 years to be fully staffed we have 2 guys that live in Clark County right close to Arkadelphia for one listeners lives Arkadelphia we have 2 guys 11 for us that's malice County our chief lives in magnolia. And so. It's important that we have with this we have the flexibility to allow people to not live within a certain radius. To get to work in the also we spend 2004 hours a day there over the course of my 14 year career I've spent nearly 5 years at my at that station a third of my life since I centered on the farm is our job that is one of our job functions is knowing the district knowing the areas we work and knowing the streets knowing the community that is that is a part of our job and we also 2 other things to be a part of the community through charities and and you know events and stuff like that. Follow up please. Yes you're recognized. You guys you know I can see how that if it was limited to a certain area let's just say. 20 miles away or something like that you have a stipulation in their. That might be better but it looks like that you may have a problem if these folks are so far away from the area that they would have trouble getting to the fire. That's why we carved out the combination apartments that do have restrictions like that because they do depend on people responding from a certain amount of time that even says in there that you know of somebody whose duty it is to respond in a certain amount of time. Thank you Mr. Okay I see no other questions of public comment on the Stallings you have signed up to speak for the bill. You're recognized this point to do that yes Sir I understand the the the concerns this is this is we are a fire service organization this is could something from the fire service it is for the fire service to protect the fire service I understand the idea of local control I think you know local control is important to an extent like I said earlier to the extent that would allow one municipality to enact policies that would harm other municipalities particularly surrounding municipalities. Yeah I I think one of the issues is going to be races that it could you know create some kind of litigious nightmare where you have lawsuits based on people suing claiming that it was because of the red that I have not seen any cases where that is where that any any any cases involving that at all the where you do see lawsuit is one residency requirements are enacted without a compelling government interest there's plenty lawsuits there and they don't stand up to judicial scrutiny and also this isn't this isn't a new idea the state of Washington that it to preempt situations like what we're talking about here the state of Michigan did it the state of Tennessee just did it so what we're doing here it's not it's not a new idea and it hasn't created the problems you know that are that are. You know will probably be suggested. Okay. Anybody have any questions seeing none of we have speak for against the bill of. John Wilkerson. Please identify yourself.