Education- House Early Childhood Subcommittee
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0:00
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
3:00
I know. Well, surely somebody's going to have
Speaker 4
3:29
that information. Colleagues, I know that
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
3:34
we have a little event happening at 325
that everybody would like to be out of here for, so let's get started. Thank you. I'm sure somebody will keep us informed of what the score is. I bet, I bet. Well, thank you all so much. Thank you for being here. And we'll call the meeting to order. This is the first meeting of the Early Childhood Committee after visiting with Secretary Oliva to talk about getting updates as opposed to spending a lot of time in adequacy
or in the regular joint meetings to try to keep abreast of what's going on in early childhood. Most of you guys know that, or maybe you do, maybe you don't, But we actually got two big reports this past – oh, I forgot to gavel in. Let me gavel in. Thank you. We got two reports within the last couple of weeks, one from the U.S. Chamber,
one from the Women's Foundation that's Arkansas-specific that is talking about a child care crisis. basically some of the information, and I can get you a copy of those reports, talking about the fact that we're losing $865 million a year in revenue in the economy because women can't find child care or families can't find child care to go back to work. That means $200 million a year
in tax revenue that we're losing out on, besides the fact that we have children who are not getting the developmental needs that they absolutely need from zero to three. So we're trying to stay abreast with the federal cuts, with tightening of belts here. We're trying to figure out basically the changes in access and capacity, the affordability and costs. We'll talk about the system, the child care system, and the fact that it's a market fail. I know we've talked about
some of that before. The true cost of care is not the same as the reimbursement. We can talk about workforce, which is a huge issue, rural supply, the deserts, the child care deserts, program effectiveness, accountability, governance and accountability, economic impact, and funding needs um and and then data as we look at the transparency for the data across the board um i think that would be helpful so that's the purpose of this committee so there aren't any
minutes to um approve and um oh there are never mind there are we we can approve the meeting the minutes from uh the february 17th thank you second thank you julie all in favor thank you very much Okay, and then our director of the Office of Early Childhood is here, and Stacey, you're coming up as well.
Great. So they're going to keep us updated and let us know what's going on, and then we'll have time for questions from each one of you guys. So if you'd please introduce yourselves for the
Speaker 7
7:09
record. Stacey Smith, Deputy Commissioner with the Department of Education with Desi. Good
Speaker 10
7:15
afternoon, everyone. Ashlyn Abney. I'm the Education Division Director for the Office of Early Childhood.
Speaker 13
7:23
So last month, Ashlyn actually did this presentation for the State Board of Education,
and she's going to kind of hit some of those high points of some of the updates in the Office of Early Childhood and the work that they've been doing. We're going to kind of go through the slides pretty quickly because I know that you guys have questions and we want to make sure and hit the topics that you want us to go deeper
Speaker 10
7:46
into. Great, thank you. All right, you all, so I just wanted to make sure that you all understand
Speaker 17
7:51
where we fit in with the LEARNS Act because sometimes that is a little bit confusing. So what you see on your slide is what we are charged with doing, and simply this says
that we will make sure that children are kindergarten ready when they hit kindergarten age, that the families will have the resources that they need in order for their children to be ready. Also, that providers will provide a high-quality learning experience for the children and that there will be enough affordable, accessible seats for children. And if we get all of that done, then the state and local economies will benefit because the families will be thriving and not be worried about their child care. So a lot of the work that we do is with the local leads.
Hopefully you all have heard that term before, and you'll be familiar with it. A local lead has a catchment area that covers all of the counties in our state now. We have about 26 local leads. We just recently went through a local lead recompete and have announced the new local leads, which essentially stayed the same as the last go-around. And so they are in charge of doing a child count in their area, looking at the coordinated funding requests, maintaining their local level needs assessments
and a local plan in their area, and then also they have been doing a lot of work recently with class implementation. So licensing is generally when people talk about OEC, they'll think about licensing as they should because that is the foundation of the work that we do. You can see on your screen there the breakdown of the types of different facilities that we have around our state. There's a little over 1,800 licensed providers, and they are going to be looking primarily at health and safety when our new licensing standards come out.
Another task that we are charged with doing is looking at the quality of the child care in our state. Sometimes that is referred to as QRIS, so you might hear that term. A big part of what we're doing right now is looking at class and doing a pilot with class, which looks primarily at the interaction between the adults and the children in our different classrooms. So when you think about school readiness assistance, or sometimes commonly referred to as child care vouchers,
this is a big portion of the work that we do. It is a federal grant, and we talked about that a little bit last time when I was here. We have what's called a CCDF grant. It's a federal grant. We pulled down $127 million from that grant. That's the information that you see on the screen now. We currently have $22 million in funds that we've got. We are waiting on our quarter two payment to come in. We serve roughly 14,600 children in SRA, and we do have a wait list,
which I know that that is a question that comes up a lot, for how many children are waiting. So you can see that there's a little over 3,000 children on our wait list. The other program that you'll hear about oftentimes is Arkansas Better Chance, or commonly referred to as ABC. The difference between this one and the SRA that I just mentioned is that ABC program is a state-funded program. And so you can see there that that award is $114 million, and we serve roughly 21,000 children through the ABC program.
And so more information about that is that the center base, there's about 19,800 children there. And then the Home Visiting Network, which is a part of this program, there's roughly 3,000 children there. So then the total number of children served is roughly 23,000. We just recently went to the State Board and got approved to increase that number to 24,000, which gives us a little bit of a leeway for any kind of flex situation that's unforeseen
that might happen during the program year. Okay, I know you all have questions, so that is the end of the overall information that I thought you might need, Representative Garner. Can I clarify
Speaker 13
12:24
something real quick? The difference between the last two slides that you see, because you see some different numbers, I want to clarify that. One has to do with the number of students that were serving in the ABC program this year. That last slide is our proposed number of students were serving within the program and the slots we're awarding going into 26-27.
And we had to go to the State Board of Education and get approval to get
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
12:49
permission for those slots for this next
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
12:54
year. Great, thank you. Representative Mayberry. Thank you. Okay, so can you help us understand
a little bit more about the market rate survey that, to my understanding, has to be done every three years by the federal government for SRA? Can you help us understand what that is, and where are we with developing a new market rate survey?
Speaker 17
13:19
Will a new one be coming out? Yes, ma'am. So Market Rate Survey looks at an overall picture of the health and expense of child care. And it pulls down information from different data systems. And the information that it's pulling
Speaker 10
13:38
down typically looks at tuition costs and prices of child care that a provider would have
Speaker 17
13:43
put into a system. And then the analysis is done on the data that's been entered.
And so the question comes up sometimes, well, what's the difference between a market rate survey, which doesn't give you an actual cost of care, versus a cost analysis, which does give you an actual cost of care? So the cost analysis goes a little bit deeper, in
Speaker 10
14:11
my opinion, and asks more specific questions from providers, from parents, from community members about an actual cost of expense. So we are currently in an RFP process to procure that study.
We're hoping to get it rolling no later than August. It'll start being assessed and looked at, and the information will be
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
14:35
I'm sorry, so are you saying by August you would have the results of that, or you would then start doing
Speaker 18
14:44
the study? Yes, ma'am. We're hoping that no later than August it will be
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
14:49
started. okay yes ma'am okay can you tell us what the current rate the current market rate is
Speaker 9
14:56
i actually do not know that went off the top of my head but
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
15:01
i'll be glad to get it for you it's is it 33 per so
Speaker 13
15:06
we set our school readiness assistance rates at 75 of the market rate survey right right so when you look at what we reimburse right now for care with the school readiness assistance it's at that 75 mark so for our preschool age group it's probably 32 is what our reimbursement rate is i think so
Speaker 18
15:24
but i hate to give you the wrong information
it is around the 32 mark and
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
15:29
then 36 for infant care yes ma'am because um that's a little bit different so um so the abc slots are not at that market rate level is that
correct So that is correct. So right now when you
Speaker 13
15:44
flesh it out, our per student amount for ABC slots is $5,105. And so when you divide that out, it's coming around like $28 a day. So it is lower. It
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
15:56
is lower. Okay. So when we had this discussion before,
we were talking about when was the last time that there was an increase for ABC.
And I think in 2018, there was like a $3 million kind of added to it. But then I started asking, well, how much further back can we go? So we go back to 2009. That was the last time that there was an increase. And I was looking at the increase then to what we were seeing in foundation funding. And the numbers, not exact, but a lot closer than what they are now.
So the ABC funding back in 2009 was $4,860 per child. Foundation funding was $5,905, if I've got all my facts correct. ABC funding now has increased only by $240, and here we are 15, 16 years later, and it's at $5,100, and our foundation funding is at $8,162, which is a difference of $2,257.
So I guess I'm trying to ask, and just trying to make it apparent to legislators that costs go up. And we spend a great amount of time looking at the cost of K-12 education. Months and months and months of going over those numbers. And we've seen that we have said, yes, those numbers need to go up. We've gone from $5,900 to $8,100 now.
Do we ever do that with the cost of child care? And do we need to start doing that with early childhood education? If we want our students excelling at this earliest of age, could it be a benefit by looking at those dollars? Yes, it's
Speaker 9
18:13
the short answer. Yes, ma'am.
I think that is something definitely that you all could look at.
Speaker 13
18:19
Yeah, I think one of the things that we've looked at, especially in the work with the local leads, is we've been trying to, part of that new work is getting a real true count in the different regions around the state and how many families are being served in different regions. Another thing that happens with ABC slots is there is a request for slots, right? and so we have had internal discussions about is it time to increase the amounts but our total allocation has remained the same right and so for us where we get into is it time
to increase how much the school gets it's really based on I guess supply and demand right at this point we still have waiting lists for people trying to get the ABC slots that we're putting out and so if we increase the amount of the ABC slot that reduces the number of slots that we have and so um since abc has been at the department of education i i do believe we've increased it like once but it was not a large amount um but we have tried in this i know miss abney here has
kind of been charged about like squeezing everything out of the amount that we have to make sure that we're going to services for students and so
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
19:33
we that's how you were able to increase it to 24 000 right what tell us some of the things that you've done to really stretch those dollars Okay. Well, one of the things that we've
Speaker 13
19:43
talked about the last time, and I'm going to let Ashlyn, because she's really the mover and shaker in all this, but one of the things that they've come out hard on is, like, again, paying by enrollment, right, not just because you got a slot. So, again, trying to make sure that our spots are being used, gone through and really looked at the different grants that we've administered and making sure that our money is used soundly in those ways, and they're going to grants that actually help providers.
Speaker 9
20:08
I know they've done surveys. you want to add to this I would
Speaker 18
20:15
say that those were the main things that we have done and I think that anytime that we can look at any option on the table to make sure that the money is
Speaker 17
20:24
flowing exactly the way it needs to be is a good thing I did want to let you know that the cost is $33 it's $33 for preschool it's $46.35 in northwest Arkansas but SRA for SRA yes that's
Speaker 18
20:36
for the SRA answer you know I think everything that Stacy said or it would be what I would
say to you like we were doing our best to make
Speaker 17
20:48
sure that while we have this growing weightless over on the SRA side that we do have like a crosswalk for instance over on the ABC side to see where the slots are and where they're available how we got to the 24,000 or the request for the 24,000 is because we were stopping a program that's called federal pre-k we were stopping that and and we needed to move those children over to ABC because we did not want to stop the continuity of care for the children. And so that forced our number to go up a little higher than the 23,000 slots.
So we didn't foresee that happening or that need, and so learned a lesson. And that's the reason why we asked for the 24,000 slots, just in case something unforeseen comes up, but that we're still okay with the number of slots that we were given. But I think the biggest thing is paying based on what's actually being provided in terms of a service would be the biggest thing in the way I would answer that question. I have other questions, but I'm going to let
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
21:48
others chime in, and I'll get back in the queue.
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
21:52
And before we leave the cost and the market rates, could you just give a quick overview about the cost of care versus market rates? So not only are we not getting 100% of the market rate, but we're not getting anywhere close to the cost of care. Just kind of give an overview for those of us who are not involved in early childhood funding, just an overview of how that works. Sure. What I'm trying to get at is that all of this, this isn't y'all's fault or anybody's fault.
It's a faulty system. And I think folks don't understand or may not understand about how child care is funded and the difference in cost. I'm going to let Ashlyn
Speaker 13
22:37
answer that question. But one thing I do want to – so we're in the process of working with procurement right now for an RFP and for a new market rate survey. And we're required to do those every three years because we take federal dollars, right? Part of that RFP right now that they're building in that's not a requirement in that RFP is also to do a market rate survey along with a cost analysis so that we have a better picture
Speaker 33
23:02
of what it is across the state great okay so that that's those are things we're working on i'll
Speaker 10
23:08
let her explain kind of the difference between the two i am super excited about that because we haven't done that in the past but or in the recent past i should say we have only done the market rate survey so like stacy said this time we're going to be looking at both of those and i think it will be interesting and it'll give us some great information back on what the rates should be like and so just a difference or here's some notes that I that I have anyway so a market rate survey it will look at again what the providers are charging the families so the
providers will put that information into what's called our ELS system and the market rate survey will pull that data down and they'll do an analysis based on that and I apologize to anybody in this room that is a data analysis because this may be really an oversimplification of that and I don't mean it to be. The cost analysis study, though, will actually look at the cost, the true cost that it would take to run a program effectively. The market rate survey looks at the private
marketing pricing as opposed to a cost analysis study looking at the real-life, real-time reality of the cost of living. One of them in terms of policy, the market rate survey supports family access and choice, while the cost analysis looks at the provider sustainability and quality. The data on the market rate survey looks at provider reported tuition, as opposed to on the cost analysis study, looks at modeled programs using actual cost drivers.
And then there's a list of other things that goes on along. But you can kind of see the difference there, that they really look at two totally different aspects of the child care system which is one of the reasons why we made the decision let's look at both of them so we can have a holistic picture of really what is happening in arkansas and how much it costs for there to be a quality program for the children does that help a little bit i think it does
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
25:05
and i think i think the main thing is that we just need to know that um we've got to have
access and if we don't have providers that can stay in business then we're not going to have anything available and and and that's the system not what we're doing or not doing um but there may be some ways that we can stabilize the system so so yes i think that's exactly what what we needed and then if there's any other questions uh folks
can ask that um representative jones in it sorry thank you you'll always be jones to me thank
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
25:42
you um thank you for providing this
information for us and if you if you've already addressed this forgive me um what level of funding is required to a eliminate the wait list b stable stabilize providers c address work workforce
Speaker 18
26:04
answer to that better when we do get the market rate survey and of cost
Speaker 10
26:10
analysis, because right now, to me, it is very much struggling to find out what
that is. My office is taking in information all the time from providers, from parents, and I want to make sure that I point out that we're trying to get a look at all providers in our state, because there are some providers who don't accept any SRA, don't participate in ABC. Um, and so it's important, I think, to get that information as well. So I think I can address that question
Speaker 18
26:43
better a little bit later in the year. Um, if that's acceptable
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
26:48
to you. Yep. Yeah, I think we'll know more. Um, Representative Painter. Thank you,
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
27:00
Madam chair I'm just trying to understand excuse me the last two slides here there looks like ought to be almost a seven million dollar difference in that but am I reading that right between yeah I'm sorry I'm gonna go back and look with you so it looks like an FY 26 114 was 114 million was awarded and then moving
Speaker 10
27:21
from 26 to 27 107 million is that okay am I understanding that right
Speaker 67
27:32
a little bit different so 114 million is the total amount of our
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
27:36
award okay it's our allocation that's the allocation yes sir that's the allocation thank you for that and uh this is not
Speaker 70
27:43
my wheelhouse um also on the looks like
Speaker 10
27:46
we've increased this tell me about the slots okay so we increased the slots because currently in this this fiscal year we have a program called federal pre-k
and federal pre-k was another multi-funding source that got paid on top of an abc amount it was particularly for infant and toddlers it was always funded through the ccdf funding through the money so totally separate although it came into abc and so we needed to stop that program again just looking at our costs looking at what we could afford um so what we didn't want
to do is stop any kind of care for the children so because we didn't want to do that then we made the decision to take our federal pre-k slides and to move them over to abc slots so those children could continue to go to the sites that they were
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
28:40
going to are most of that slot increase is that
Speaker 35
28:44
in the centers, compared to home-based? I would
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
28:47
say yes. Okay. Yes. And thank you for doing that. I think that's an applaud to you guys for not stopping
that. No fault to the public's, you know.
And so, I appreciate it. Madam
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
29:00
Chair. Thank you. Representative McGruder. Thank you,
Representative Jessie McGruder
Unverified
29:06
Madam Chair. Thank you, ladies, for being here today. I have a question in regards to the counties that are having issues with this. What specific areas of the state are struggling with their child care providers and also which areas are having difficulties having with infants in care? I would say that's
Speaker 10
29:28
a fair question, by the way,
and I would say that infant and toddler care in our state is a challenge across the board, And that is something that we do need to focus on, in my opinion, and we need to pay attention. I would say that because our local leads are in play now, this will be like the third year that they've been around, they have been doing an excellent job in their catchment area, so every county is covered by a local lead. So they are constantly looking at where the need is in a system that's called coordinated funding requests.
We're about to start a new one, which I can talk to you about later. But right now, they do a needs assessment for their counties. I don't have a list of one particular county that's struggling more than another county. I think that you would kind of anticipate and know that our southern part of our state is where it's maybe more difficult to find providers. But that's not necessarily true for all the counties there.
So I can get you a list, but there's not been anything that I've been looking at just specifically in terms of, like, deserts for no child care available.
Representative Jessie McGruder
Unverified
30:46
Okay, thank you, and I would greatly appreciate that information. I also would like to know, do we have a plan for rural Arkansas of how we're going to address the rural areas of
Speaker 76
30:57
Arkansas because I'm sure there's a need in those areas also. Yes, that is something
Speaker 9
31:03
that we are constantly looking at, And so let me give you an example.
Speaker 10
31:09
If you're talking about ABC programs in general, when we get the child count, we're looking to see how many children are being served, and we're looking at the allocation of ABC seats. Then we look to see in that particular county what the percentage is of children that are being served. Then we decide where those slots need to go. So when a county only has 40% or around the 40% mark of children being served,
they would be the first ones that we would look at in making sure that there were seats available for children to attend. So that's one example of how we look. But we're constantly looking at rural Arkansas, all of Arkansas, really. And I do think
Speaker 13
31:55
that would be a helpful document. We'll get that document to the chair so you guys can see the where we have the percentage of being served in an area and again that's the information that we use when we're awarding slots with ABC we look for who's the lowest areas in the regions
to get those slots first before we had local leads established we didn't necessarily have all that information our local leads are literally out knocking on centers that don't participate in abc or sra to find out how many students are being served in their centers or how many children or babies or infants and again all that information is kind of for the first time learns required us to do that and so we're getting a better truer count of what we have in the state thank you
Representative Jessie McGruder
Unverified
32:43
and my last question is are there any areas of the state where there is no care
Speaker 9
32:48
that's a very good question it has not been brought to my attention if there's absolutely no care. I
Speaker 10
32:56
do know that there are some where we wish there would be more providers available but in
Speaker 13
33:03
terms of no care I'm not aware of that. Some of those centers may be home-based you know OEC office they not only do they license your typical child care centers but they also license home-based care centers and different programs like that so we may have a varying degree in different
regions of the state you may not see your typical center-based um in all areas of the state but that's definitely something we can look
Representative Jessie McGruder
Unverified
33:28
at the data for and that's what i was going to say can you add that to the information
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
33:38
that you share thank you so much thank you madam chair thank you representative frown thank you um very much um i'm curious so we have facility i'm up here i'm sorry i apologize that's okay um so not all facilities or child care facilities participate
in sra or abc do any
of them participate in both programs or are they just eligible for
Speaker 18
34:02
one or the other that's a great question we do have programs that do both and so typically what you
Speaker 10
34:10
see there is it'll be an ABC program. ABC programs typically run during the school year and they also run during the school day. And so you will have some situations where I might have my child in the ABC
program, but as a parent I work until 6 30 and so I don't want my child to have to move a location from their school campus over to a child care facility. So we will do what's called a wraparound service and so it'll it'll be a situation where the child's covered under ABC for the school hours and then covered under SRA for the afternoon hours until a parent can come pick up so that's just one example
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
34:53
so there's a in that situation there would be a differential in what the school
would receive for that short period of time that's a great
Speaker 10
35:03
question too so ABC is paid to the school in allotted seats sra is paid on behalf of the parent so it's a little bit it's a different situation so the money goes to
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
35:18
the parent and the parent pays the
Speaker 17
35:20
school it it does go to the school and there is a differential there but it's not it's
Speaker 18
35:26
two separate programs okay did i confuse you
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
35:28
well i'm not going to say i know it all
Speaker 13
35:34
at this point you are you are correct in there is a rate difference between ABC and SRA. Primarily, when you look at ABC programs, about 90% of the ABC programs are ran by either a school district or an educational service cooperative. The state-funded ABC program runs on a 178-day. It's very similar to your K-12 calendar, right? It has different requirements that require certified teachers.
And then when you get over into SRA, that's where you're seeing more of your private businesses running child care centers and then the money we have a portal built where the the centers get reimbursement for a child attending the program and then we send the money to the center but the parent has to apply for SRA assistance so when you have a child who attends an ABC program during the school year but then maybe after school they're going to another program for after school you know you're talking
about three or four year old they're going to maybe a private center and that private center is getting that differential or you have school programs who might apply for a grant with us or summer programming and we're pulling that funding out of a different fund and it could
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
36:51
be a different reimbursement rate okay I think that I just need to those answers are good and then I'll just keep listening but i have one more question um so there's uh particularly well it doesn't necessarily have to be particularly rural areas so there is no way
um we're not mandating that every child
zero to three participate in one of these programs so there's really no way to know how many children who are not getting the benefit of one of these programs they might is that correct that is correct
Speaker 10
37:26
we're currently trying to look at how many children do we have in the state of arkansas birth to five years of age and we are trying to figure out where are they if
Speaker 9
37:36
they're not in one of these licensed facilities where are they so that is something that we're
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
37:41
looking at so if you did that you would somehow like to try to provide some sort of enrichment for that
child or make sure that the parents know how to provide that kind of support for their child? Yes,
Speaker 17
37:56
ma'am. Making sure that the parents at least know and understand about early childhood. All right. Well, thank you very much.
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
38:04
I will keep listening. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Representative Steele.
Representative Tracy Steele
Unverified
38:12
Thank you, Madam Chair. May not be a very direct question. You probably won't say it's a good question, but what is your communication method? I am getting, since we kind of started this, and thank you, Madam Chair and Madam Vice Chair, for staying on top of this. You've done a good job, but I get from a lot of my constituents that we're not hearing anything. We don't know what's going on. So what is your communication method, both to the providers and the parents?
Speaker 10
38:47
So we have monthly provider calls. So if you're a licensed child care provider in the state of Arkansas,
Speaker 17
38:54
we get on the first Tuesday of every month at noon. That's open to everyone, actually, not just providers. Sometimes we do have family members who will join that. That is posted to our website. On our website, we also put out all of the information that we've been working on. For families, what we try to do is we do rely on our local leads that are in the particular catchment areas where they're local.
Speaker 10
39:24
They've been doing a lot of work to get out communication as well. So I know that that has been a challenge, both internally and externally, our communications. And we're trying to make as many gains as we can as quickly as possible. But if you ever come across that and you've got people that
Speaker 17
39:42
just don't know, you can give them my name, and I'll be glad to talk with
Representative Tracy Steele
Unverified
39:49
them. Oh, your office has been very responsive when I call. Are the calls that you all make,
are they after normal business hours for the providers? I
just say a scenario where kids are being kids. Oh, I see
Speaker 17
40:06
what you're saying. So, we do have teams that work non-traditional hours, like our licensing specialists. They will go out all different kinds of times, so they're looking at different things. So, for instance, transportation. It's very common for a licensing specialist to be out at a licensed site at 6 o'clock in the morning.
And the evening time is the same. It's common for them to be out at 6 p.m. If you're talking about families that
Speaker 10
40:33
need assistance, those are traditional hours typically. 8 to 4 30 we have coverage in our office from 7 30 to 5 so there are a few calls that that happen you know not in that 8 to
Speaker 17
40:43
4 30 block and last question madam chair um
Representative Tracy Steele
Unverified
40:48
do you provide any training from your your office for the providers yes sir so we typically do that in a couple of
Speaker 10
40:59
ways we have a staff that are employed by the office of early childhood that will provide training but then we also do contract work or grantee work where we get in
Speaker 17
41:10
partnership with grantees that will provide professional development you're welcome thank you and I've
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
41:19
got a quick follow-up on that so the monthly communications are generally during working hours for the providers what about for the parents one of the one of the stories I heard was that a woman had
been or a family had been removed from the voucher system because they didn't do a 10-minute training video. How are you getting that kind of information to the parents, especially in some of these parents that may not have internet or may not have computers or may change telephone numbers? How do you get that information to the parents, especially the the voucher
Speaker 10
42:01
parents yes ma'am so whenever they fill out an application our team gets in
communication and contact with a particular family and they are assigned to someone and
Speaker 17
42:13
the family would know exactly who their case representative is and so they can communicate back and forth with that person if it was outside of typical
Speaker 10
42:23
hours then our team typically says to the parent, what is a good time to call or where can I contact you? What's a good way to contact you or what's your preference for contacting? And so we try to be very responsive to the family
on their work schedule hours or just in the way
Speaker 17
42:41
they want to communicate with us, whether that's a phone call or an email.
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
42:47
And I guess my question is that in my experience with folks that are that are living in poverty they don't know from many times they don't know what their communication is going to be like and if if there's an issue with the voucher then do you ever contact the center because they're the kids are there every day or what is the what
is the emergency how much are we trying to contact them before we cut off their services Oh,
Speaker 10
43:22
my goodness. We are in constant contact with them before we would do that. We would have multiple times that we've communicated with them to get them, either via phone, via
Speaker 17
43:31
email, to give them the information. And then even when we do get in contact with them, Representative Garner, then we give them a timeline, like 10 days. We will tell them and notice them up every step of the way
Speaker 10
43:46
so that there's an opportunity for us to work together to figure out whatever is going on or missing that we can make sure that the child keeps care. So oftentimes what I'll hear in terms of that is there's missing paperwork, for instance, and so we will work with them to get that paperwork uploaded however we need to in order to keep the care in place. Great, great. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Representative Mayberry, you're back up.
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
44:18
Thank you. So the ABC program, different than the SRA, can you help members just sort of understand the requirements of the ABC? Because it's a lot stricter. You have to have personnel that meets a higher standard than the SRA. Can you just kind of help us
understand that to begin with, and then I'll go from there. Okay.
Speaker 17
44:45
Well, you named the very top one. That is the biggest difference between the programs is that on staffing for the ABC program,
there has to be a certified teacher that is available, whereas with SRA, you do not. The other thing is the PD requirements are a little bit different in terms of the hours that they have to receive. The ratios are a little bit different in terms of there's a lower staff-to-student ratio over on the ABC side than there is SRA. Okay. So those higher
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
45:24
requirements, but they actually get compensated less.
Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. Pretty significant amount less. So if we were to, because I think just overall, one of the things that's just so confusing about all this is
payment here is this, and this is this, all these different programs. And it's like, oh, my, can we not kind of consolidate it and just make it simpler to understand? So if we used even just, and I realize you're getting a better market rate survey that's going to include this cost analysis in the future and all that, But even just at bare minimum, if we took the current market rate amount that's out there that is being used for the SRA and use that same amount to increase ABC funding to just make it equal, you don't have to do the math.
I've already done the math, and it's about $12 million. I want to let our legislators know, because I realize you can only provide what we say, hey, here's some money to do something with, okay? So I'm not asking you to say, I'm sure whatever money is given to you, you are going to make the best use of it. I know you are. But at bare minimum, that just brings the standards to where it's all the same, okay? that doesn't increase the number of children out there who can receive the care.
So the next part of that, you have 3,000 on a waiting list. And what can we do, again, taking little steps to work towards eliminating that waiting list? and even if we just say, let's say half, $1,500 for this goal, adding that in to the ABC and making sure that it's not just the public schools, making sure that we are involving the community-based providers so that they can make use of this.
If you do $1,500 there, that's about another $10 million. so I'm just giving the math out there okay I'm just throwing this out there if you want to come up with different math or a different way of doing it but that's about 22 million dollars that could could be done in this fiscal session and if we do that in this fiscal session I think it is a great starting point for the next session to clean some more things up I'm just saying
you don't have to agree but do you have any comment on any of that that you're willing
Speaker 10
48:09
to share would that help in any way yes ma'am that would help let me just say anytime that we can support young children it's a good thing and I think that and I know in the research is there,
Speaker 17
48:23
that the trajectory for them is much better based on what happens to the children
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
48:28
in the younger ages. Okay, thank you. And again, I know you're not asking for it. You aren't bringing it up. I'm using this opportunity to talk to my fellow legislators and to talk to anybody that's listening. We need to invest this. We need to take the time if we truly care about improving the learning that that you know zero to three years old that's when your brain expands the most and we need to put that investment there when we talk about Mississippi Miracle
they invested in early childhood education as well we're duplicating some of those things here in the state I'm glad to see that but but they also invested in some early childhood education too. So I just, you know, I'm just throwing that out there. Thank you. Thank you. Representative Painter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
49:24
Just a game update. We're up by 17. How many, you just
mentioned a minute ago about certain facilities that are not participating in either program. Do we know how many facilities
Speaker 10
49:37
across the state? There's about 478, so roughly 500 the last I counted. Okay,
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
49:42
thank you for that. And going down Representative Steele Avenue about communication, you know, there's 135 legislators here. And I'm sure many of us, if we can be of help getting some of that communication back to our district, I think that may behoo of you guys to do that and communicate with us and let us know.
I guarantee half of us at least have Facebook pages. We know our local providers and so forth. So if, you know, I have the same complaints too. Not everybody in Mountain Home and North Central Arkansas is always getting communications from maybe your department or where
to go. So if we can be a resource of that, please let
Speaker 13
50:23
us know. Thank you for offering that. And I'll tell you one thing that we'll do on our end is we'll create kind of a one-pager that has our hours when she has her monthly calls, Contact information
That we can readily give to you. So when you're getting contacted you can immediately push something back
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
50:40
out to them as well Or post please do because I know your counterparts and other agencies do this do that and because I share a
Speaker 114
50:48
lot of that And so just want to help out as
Representative Wade Andrews
Unverified
50:55
best we can we'll be glad to do that. Thank you for that Representative Andrews Thank you madam chair I want to go back to the underserved area because i'm the guy who lives in south arkansas um kind of somewhat
underserved area um does the state have a roadmap or a game plan to figure out how to really build out providers whether it's on this you know government state model or use private sector contractors type deal do y'all have any plans for that or idea that is something know
Speaker 10
51:27
we're working on now it's not something that we've had in the past at least not to
Speaker 13
51:33
my knowledge anyway that's the beauty of the locally yes okay so that whole concept of setting up these local leads within the different regions
of the state is to identify the needs in those regions you know question earlier there you know if there's no childcare anywhere if they're all home-based what do we need to bring in where you've seen this done in other states it's allowed local communities to come together to say we've got to set something up or get with our local chamber to you know look at the needs in that area so the local leads piece right now again this is the beginning of the third year where that's rolling it's the first time that we're getting truer data on what's actually happening in our state and so through the local leads work is where that kind
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
52:16
of stuff could happen okay thank you Representative Barnett. Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to get some additional insight on the wait list. Are there caps on the wait list? You're talking about for so and and then I guess my other question is I see that there were there was a wait list mentioned for SRAs but also aren't there
Are there not wait lists for the ABC program as
Speaker 10
52:51
well? School districts sometimes will have wait
Speaker 17
52:53
lists of children and families that are trying to get into that particular
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
52:58
campus. Yes, sir. Okay. And I was just trying to get an understanding of how those, one, whether or not there are caps on the wait list, and then how are they developed. Is it by region? Is it by student-teacher ratio or teacher availability or facility space?
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
53:21
that. Okay, so you're talking about SRA? Really both, but I get what you're saying about the ABC school may be based at the school district level,
Speaker 10
53:33
so let's just say for SRA. Okay, so for SRA, it is a statewide wait list. So this would be for families who have filled out the information who we know are eligible for the program, but we just don't have the capability to serve that child.
So when that happens, then they will go on the wait list. There's no cap if you're asking about, is there ever a line that we say we're not taking anymore on the wait list? No, sir, we
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
54:06
do not have that. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Representative
Springer. Thank you, madam chair and good afternoon and thank you madam chair and co-chair for Heading up this committee committee. I think it's something that's very necessary
To the members that are present here to answer questions I don't know if you all will agree or disagree, but as I listen to the Information that has been provided I'm of the opinion that there are certain things that have come out of our discussion today that there are not enough slots, we don't have enough workers, and then there's definitely not enough funding to align with the real cost of making sure that we provide these services. Do you agree or disagree?
Speaker 13
54:57
in the state? I think we're still in the process of trying to get a really true picture of that, right? Within our state program of ABC and the allocation that's there right now, you know, at this point of the 114 that's allocated to us, we've committed 107 from the department right now that we've got planned next year going to schools and centers who have requested slots, right?
so there definitely is a demand um the other amount there is um you know operational um and some grants for professional development and support on the sra side um again we are coming out of where um it was at a too high of a spend rate right and so we all had that impact the last year, right? We spent this $127 million grant that the state receives, really that money doesn't
expire for three years. But because we were spending at such a high rate beforehand, we've spent through to the point that we're now year to year. And so that is why our state has had to shift and get very, very tight on where we're spending our money in the program. I will say that Ms. Abney and her team, we are getting to the point where we have evaluated every grant. I feel like we have identified where there has been waste. I feel like we have shifted from federal program
to state program and vice versa what makes sense. I'm trying to make sure that we're serving as many students as possible within the program. If this body decides that they want to look at funding different programs or different, we as a department will take those recommendations that you give us, and we'll go from there. But, you know, we're going to proceed with our cost analysis and our market rate survey, and when we get that information, we will certainly share that with this body.
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
57:02
At follow-up, and I didn't mean to say that you all weren't doing what you were supposed to do. I just wanted to outline the things that I've heard so that, you know, we can move forward in
Speaker 82
57:15
getting that rate survey done. I think everybody recognizes how early childhood is very important to
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
57:20
this state. Yes. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. And I just
want to say, as a follow-up to that, first of all, thank you guys for taking a chance with visiting with stakeholders across the state
to figure out the best ways to do that, to take the money that we have and reallocate it to make it the best it could be with our limited funds. Thank you for that. My question is, do we have the data since we've made those changes about how many families are not able to stay in child care because of the voucher co-payment? How many workers are not able to stay in the job because they're not getting vouchers anymore for working in the field?
those kinds of things how many providers are how many providers
have we lost if any those kinds of questions we definitely have a
Speaker 13
58:21
spreadsheet of centers that have closed and a spreadsheet of centers that have opened not as many it's pretty pretty even I mean it's at one point I think there were people were saying like there's been a hundred places that have closed that's that's not accurate we do have centers that cited that they closed due to changes
within the SRA but I will say when we came out with the rate adjustments with SRA there was you know so much conversation that occurred then that we definitely went back and made changes we kept the co-pays in but there's not been a significant significant decrease into what providers could receive and when we kept those quality payments pretty high they're more than that $38 and so um we can definitely pull those spreadsheet pieces and look as far as actual families that
have rolled out of the program or changed one of the pieces that we did do is we increased the work requirement to 30 hours to 20 so up on a renewal families that are not at that 30 hours would not qualify for the program so we could probably give you information on upon renewals which of those families have had to drop out of the program. At one point, our daily spend, or not daily, our monthly spend rate with SRA was around $16 million. To be within budget, we needed to get
that program down to more like $7 million, and we're there right now, okay? So as we're continuing to look at that and watch that number and look at our program, now we're going to go to the wait
Speaker 82
59:56
list and try to start getting families off the wait list. And I guess that
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:00:01
was my question as well where do we find that information so that we know those things yeah well we
Speaker 82
1:00:05
can pull that as far as but as far as the number of families that have like pulled off on the work like that is something that I think their team could probably go back and do what about what about
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:00:16
the child care workers who were getting those vouchers for working in child care is that is there a way
Speaker 10
1:00:24
to find that out we stopped doing that yes ma'am and they we went back to just being eligible um the typical criteria for being eligible to sra right do we know how many how many of
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:00:34
those workers left the field because of that that's that's what i do not know
Speaker 13
1:00:41
there yeah we can see if we can dig to find that i don't know that we'll be
able to but we can definitely dig to find that i think some of the bigger concerns around the way we were doing the child care worker qualification was once we qualify you within SRA you're then eligible for a full year until your renewal so if you worked at a child care center for three months and then decided to go work somewhere else you were still getting free child care even though your eligibility was because you were a child care worker okay and so when we started looking at who was on our wait list we we quickly decided that that was
probably an area we needed to address. The idea of providing our child care workers with this ability to have free child care or reduced rate was a way to get workers into the field. Great idea, right? But at the cost of, you know, that child care worker may have not been eligible by their own income base, right? They may have a spouse who's making a much higher income, and traditionally they wouldn't have qualified but they're taking the place of someone on the wait
list who is in poverty does have an infant and can't get in and so these have been very hard decisions and debated decisions throughout but we felt like that was an area that we could cut to try to make sure that we were getting the right families and children into the program but again did it impact workers and centers it most certainly probably did do we have those numbers.
Speaker 82
1:02:11
I can look to see if we can find, figure it, figure that out. Well, and
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:02:16
my, and my whole point is, is, and maybe, maybe you guys can elaborate just a little bit about how difficult
it is to get child care workers. What is, what is the rate of
Speaker 13
1:02:28
pay? Yeah, so child, so this is where you, you, a lot of times get in those conversations or debate about early, you know, ABC has to have a licensed teacher. Licensed teachers and early ABC child care presenters, they don't, they're not guarantee $50,000. That's not part of the K-12 piece, right? You do see a lot of the educational cooperatives and school districts actually paid these teachers $50,000, okay? You do have some
areas of the state where that did not happen, but a lot of them did make that happen. When you get into your private centers, you're looking at hourly employees that are not required to have any type of degree so you're going to talk about a the pay rate's going to go much less so is it
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:03:16
hard to find quality child care workers probably so and one of the things that one of the things that you mentioned was that the center-based that the school-based center-based folks that
are taking three, four, five, and six-year-olds and after school and summer, are we doing anything to help those folks that then end up without the way to subsidize infant and toddler? What's happening with infant and toddler? I know in Fayetteville, Arkansas, my three-year-old did not make it off of a waiting list to get into an infant or a toddler. She was 18 months before we got her into anywhere. And so it's not just rural areas.
Yes, the demand for it, right. Right. It's everywhere across the board. So if we're taking away the way that home care and child care centers, whomever, is subsidizing that infant and toddler care, what are we doing when we put more of our ABC kids into those school-based programs? And I love that idea. But when we do that, we're taking away any way to pay for infant and toddler.
And it's a broken system. It's not y'all's fault,
Speaker 33
1:04:33
obviously. It's a broken system. But what can we do about that? I think
Speaker 13
1:04:38
that's where we have to define what the priority is for each of these programs, right? And if we were able to create more A, B, and C slots for three- and four-year-olds, right, does that open up more slots over an SRA for infants? that at a higher rate and and i think that's what you've seen when miss abney's talking about that federal pre-k that we moved over to abc
that was purposeful to move over kids that are at this higher age at abc to be able to open up and free up um sra funding right and so i don't know that there's a perfect answer
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:05:17
representative gardner Well, and I think those of us in here want to figure out what we can do to help. We know that you guys are doing everything you can do with the money that you have. We're trying to figure out, in as much realism as we can, what we can do to help stabilize, at least stabilize.
Because those reports were pretty frank about folks that just can't afford child care. I mean, it's 27% of a lot of households, and they can't afford to go back to work. They can't afford to have quality care at home, whatever it is. So I guess that's my frustration is that we can't just wait and hope and decide that we're going to do something later. We are in a crisis now, and we're trying to figure out what we can do now to help stabilize until we can come up with some of these great ideas.
I know there's some great ideas that are going on. I love the mini centers and the incubators and those kinds of things to help. I'm worried about all these new places that are coming up. Do they have business plans? Most businesses don't survive three years, any business. And the early childhood is an extremely difficult business. Do we know that these folks have business plans? Are we just going to open them up and then they're not going to be able to make it? And then stop. What can we do? What can we do?
Speaker 13
1:06:45
That is one of the things that that's probably one of the first things that Secretary Oliva came in and really asked about, like, how is our office supporting or our state supporting the business side of child care centers? You know, and so again, as we look at contracts and things that we're putting out there, what are things that we're putting out with the funding that we have that could be useful for that business side? You know, some type of management for their accounting or their financing or just even their own HR tools.
Where can we leverage statewide, you know, RFPs and contracts for private centers to be able to opt into? So that is definitely something that he has asked questions about on the business side. Because you're right, it's not just like opening up the door and saying, let me come keep your kids. There's a whole business side to this that people need support with. And we do try to provide technical assistance with that. And again, the whole local LEED concept is, again, trying to be able to build some of that capacity in local regions so that people can push in and be able to provide
that technical assistance at a closer range. Do
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:07:51
you guys have an open source curricula? Are you looking at open source curricula to help with these
Speaker 13
1:07:58
folks that are? Yeah, those are conversations that we're having right now with where could we provide a statewide curriculum for all centers, whether they're private or we don't have one right now. We do have a curriculum list, and there is a free one right now. But, again, we're looking at how can we improve quality. Right. And at the same time, we're proving that quality, be providing training for people using those materials in an effective way.
Just because you have good materials doesn't mean
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:08:31
you effectively use them. Great, thank you. Representative Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just two quick questions, easy ones. ABC requires a certified teacher. Is that like one certified
teacher per school or per daycare, child care, or is that per class? It's one
Speaker 9
1:08:52
certified teacher for every two classes.
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:08:55
Okay. And then the other question is, and I hadn't heard this mentioned before, so do ABC and SRA serve different age groups? From your previous conversation, that's what
Speaker 10
1:09:14
it sounded like to me. I would say that predominantly ABC programs serve three- and four-year-olds, while SRA covers birth through five years of
Speaker 17
1:09:26
age. and after school-aged children as well.
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:09:32
So a fourth or fifth grade-aged student could participate with SRA? Yes, ma'am, for after school or summer care.
Speaker 27
1:09:40
After school, okay. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. That's all I had. Representative Mayberry?
Speaker 138
1:09:44
Just another little side note besides trying
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
1:09:50
to come up with more money in a fiscal session. I'm just going to repeat that again. But that's not to y'all. That's to them. We seem to like incentives.
You know, we're doing things to incentivize our teachers, incentivize our schools. And I'm just curious if there would be any idea of incentivizing our early childhood educators
that if the students meet a certain benchmark before kindergarten that there could be some extra funds
for them. Has that ever been explored?
Is that an idea that if they meet certain pre-K level just before entering kindergarten? Like at kindergarten, they're all tested. they have some type of literacy testing right and if the students who are receiving that testing score higher could there be some sort of incentive to that preschool I'm just curious has that been thrown out that is something
Speaker 10
1:11:03
that we talk about actually what we need to do first is get our high
Speaker 17
1:11:09
quality instructional materials in place first we think before we can start looking at benchmarks so what we talk about is curriculum first then getting an assessment piece in then looking at
Speaker 10
1:11:19
growth of students so yes ma'am we are talking about it I'll take one more question and I know
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:11:30
I know we've asked this before I'm going to ask it in a little bit different way because i don't want to put you guys on the spot by any means at all but if we gave you five million
dollars right now and i'm just trying to get to priorities if we gave you five million dollars what would you do with that money right now the priority for us right now is providing access to kids and programs and do you have any idea how much five million
Speaker 16
1:12:02
dollars would help that I mean, if you based it on the current – so if you based it on the
Speaker 10
1:12:12
current – go ahead. It costs us roughly $1.6 million a week for the number of children that we serve right now for SRA.
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:12:19
Just to give you a little idea there. And then
Speaker 17
1:12:27
if we gave you $50 million, what would you do with it? Same. Same thing. yeah we would look
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:12:34
at providing direct services to children and would that would that be enough to stabilize providers and children
Speaker 129
1:12:40
and educators I don't know that I would connect
Speaker 13
1:12:43
you can answer that at this moment yeah I mean I think when we have more information with the marker rate surveys you know get closer to that
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:12:50
yeah closer that's fair thank you any other questions anything else y'all would like to add oh I'm sorry
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
1:13:02
representative Springer thank you thank you madam chair how long do you think that that market rate survey is going to take to complete we are hoping
Speaker 10
1:13:11
to you have some answers and information back by December towards the end of the year hopefully sooner but no later than that thank you anybody else
Speaker 16
1:13:26
anything else y'all want to say to us
that we just appreciate you letting us to continue to come over and
Speaker 13
1:13:32
give you information about early childhood I as I'm sitting here I just want to again point out this lady right here she's been in the job for five months is doing an excellent job I hope those of you that made comments today about communication I hope in a couple months you don't hear anybody saying anything about needing any information from OEC because they are communicating very well but we appreciate that the comments and hopefully that we will
Speaker 82
1:13:55
continue to do a better job in that area well we
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
1:14:00
hope to do this once a month during ALC so y'all
let us know what what we need to be asking and we'll I'm sure talk to our providers and educators and parents and have a few questions as well but thank you for your willingness to do this thank you to secretary oliva for for making the suggestion and we're thrilled to to be able to do it so thank you very much thank you thank you is there any other business come before the committee if not we are adjourned thank you
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Consideration of a Motion to Approve the February 17, 2026, Meeting Minutes [Exhibit B]
C. Update on Early Childhood Education from the Arkansas Department of Education [Exhibit C]
D. Other Business
E. Adjournment
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — EDUCATION - HOUSE EARLY CHILDHOOD SUBCOMMITTEE, Mar 19, 2026 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT B - Minutes 2-17-26 | Exhibit | 1 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C - Office of Early Childhood Presentation | Exhibit | 8 | Official source ↗ |
| HANDOUT D1 - Arkansas Better Chance Funding and Expenditures FY1999-2025 | Exhibit | 1 needs OCR | Official source ↗ |
| HANDOUT D2 - Arkansas Early Childhood System Key Oversite Questions for Legislators | Exhibit | 3 needs OCR | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
Speaker 4
Speaker 7
Speaker 10
Speaker 13
Speaker 17
Representative Julie Mayberry
Unverified
Speaker 18
Speaker 9
Speaker 33
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
Speaker 56
Representative Stetson Painter
Unverified
Speaker 67
Speaker 70
Speaker 35
Representative Jessie McGruder
Unverified
Speaker 76
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
Representative Tracy Steele
Unverified
Speaker 114
Representative Wade Andrews
Unverified
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
Speaker 79
Speaker 82
Speaker 19
Speaker 27
Speaker 138
Speaker 16
Speaker 129