Transportation, Technology & Legislative Affairs - Senate

Ishant we're gonna go through first let me announce that Senate bill three seventy nine will not run at all probably be withdrawn more less moot Senate bill three ninety five will not run today. And. Depending on who else is here We will probably not have a few other so don't get upset about the length of the agenda because I don't think it's all they're all going to be running so everyone bear with this of. If you're I have a bill I'm gonna run right away and then I have one that I might run and it will almost start with Senate bill four forty five in the center board has agreed to take over the chair for a moment while I do that and we will we'll get that one done and then we'll come back see if representative audience here and will move down she is okay. Would you like to go first represent all and then I'll. Why don't you go ahead. That's okay. So when I get up there I can run to three I'll be back here for the duration. Okay. What you're recognized to present house bill thirteen twenty four please identify separate them by District eighty seven. So I have that seems really loud sorry and I had sent a sheriff in my area or someone that works at the sheriff's office bring this to me because he about hit somebody who didn't have their lights on when it was raining really hard my husband and I were headed back from Meena Friday whatever the downpour happened and I could see how you could quickly hit somebody that didn't have on headlights because they don't have on their rear lights during that time either if their had lots or not on and it was raining so hard that I had my flashers on but then I had some truck drivers tell me date we can't see when the. Stuff coming up off the tires we have a hard time seeing vehicles and so to me become a very big safety issue that we should have our headlights on I mean we all. We know it's like a law to already do it but that's not a first offense so you can't be pulled over and warned in told Hey let's turn on the headlights so that you don't get hit or that you don't hit somebody by accident somebody hit you by accident I'm so that's all the bill does really is given away to pull somebody over to at least one woman asked them to put on their lights By law there's already like a ticket set up I don't even knowing how much it is actually but I would think it would be very much. If they pulled you over and it was the second offense like you were speeding and your lights were off. And but this would allow it to be whenever. It's truly a safety issue in my eyes a true safety issue so when I for I had truckers asking me and some police officers I thought I would try to run it form and that's all the bill does Sir. just quick question we're we're making it a primary offense yes Sir so at like we used to be on seat belt so we switched to being yes Sir yes Sir all right any other questions the committee representive aw. He won the audience like to speak for against the bill. If not what is will the committee. Do pass by Senator board second by Senator English any discussion. Okay all in favor say aye aye aye opposed. Bill thank you in graduation thank you so much thank you for allowing me to go first Sir you're welcome ma'am. Okay If you're. it'd take over. So would you let me. They're not gonna. Run and I'll take my little folder here. Turn the chair over to the vice chairman so you go right ahead. This is. Before forty. All right Senator Johnson you're recognized please introduce yourself. Thank you Mr chairman Committee mark Johnson Senate district seventeen of Senate bill four forty five is. It can be complex and it can be very simple but let me first take if you've read the bill you know the first two pages are not to be codified they're basically Legislative intent legislative history and has to do with the some of the. Provisions in Arkansas constitution amendment seven. Of. The General Assembly up referred to amendments to the people over a period of time ones Amendment ninety one once member one of one and they both had to do with the building four lane highways and it was a temporary and later in one oh one eight permanent half cent sales tax No one ever thought about the fact that you know some places those freeways might be more than four lines but The Amendment said four lines I think it was the intent of the General Assembly and I've had no one actually argue that with me that was really meeting multi line we're trying to get places that needed more lines on the highway to be done now the department of transportation and use some of these funds for what's known as the thirty crossing the. Improvements to interstate thirty in downtown little rock and there were more than four lines and there was a lawsuit and I think. The. Supreme Court correctly decided that words mean things and at four line meant for line regardless of what our intent was we didn't crafted as tightly as we should have some. The purpose of the Senate bill four forty five is to amend. Amendment ninety one and to clarify that we really mean multi lane highways that the half cent sales tax should go toward multilane highways now some people say how do you do that well there is a provision and I think it's quite clear provision in Amendment seventy that says an all star on the first page of the bill down around line thirty two says. No measure approved by a vote of the people shall be amended or repealed by the General Assembly except upon a yeah in a vote on a roll call of two thirds of all the members elected to each house of the General Assembly. And then further on to top of page two it defines measure again in the constitution and amendments seven article five since subsection one defines measure to include any bill law resolution ordinance charter constitutional amendment or legislative proposal or enactment of any character and the plain language of the definition measure would include amendments to the constitution meaning that the General Assembly may amendments to the journals the Arkansas constitution with a two thirds vote of each house there was a case in nineteen fifty one the Edgemont decision that the Supreme Court declined to construe the constitution language literally and said that the General Assembly lacked the power to amend or repeal amendments the constitution by two thirds vote of each house however in twenty eighteen the the border in the case call board of trustees of the University of Arkansas the Andrews the Supreme Court overturned years of precedent by holding the General Assembly cannot waive by law the state sovereign immunity ruling this caused me to think that in the their decision in Andrews the Supreme Court was basically saying that were again words mean things and the words you can't be sitting here on court absolutely was sacrosanct and so now we have the current ruling on sovereign immunity of. There was also a lawsuit I hope I'm pronouncing this right one out of NATO the Gibson that the court ruled that the phrase four lane highway as moot As used in the constitution was plain and unambiguous and I agree it was and so those funds under the Amendment ninety one could not be used to improve Six Flags portions of interstate highways so here we are now in the. Supreme Court has ruled that things should be read precisely as it reads and precisely as it reads would say that any measure may be amended by a two thirds vote of each house so it would take twenty four Senate votes and sixty seven house votes to pass in sum up by passing this law we're we're re instating that there probably be a court challenge and I welcome that because I believe this issue should be determined once and for all so that is the explanation of the bill unfortunately due to a yet another decision by the Supreme Court that they're not required their lab to use the money R. dot can use the money I look over Director tater she's not and said that they said they can use it in thirty crossing will be finished but we think it's important to clarify this in the law in that the intent of the General Assembly was to say multi lane highways not for so that is the essence of the bill and I'll be happy to after answering questions. Senator just build thank you so you're not saying we're to go back to the floor Lang definition. We're we're changing it yes ma'am we're changing it to multi line in every sector yes and that is what your bill does yes what it does which coincides with what the courts have already state. Not exactly no not exactly what they said was that is the month as well they said that you the money was collected it can be used yes that's what they actually save lives. Ben Gilmore list on to what they have already done that trying to figure out what that is going to be our job is to be Prost Bective. Once it's it's past approved so it going forward it would already be clear not ambiguous language that this is what it will have multi line yes ma'am that's the intent thank you okay yes Sir senator Murdock. Along that line so the ambiguity did exist is between four and six in the words you're using is more to. What we don't want to collude in the rare instance when we become a real megalopolis that it might be places that require eight lanes right I don't so you will see that but six line is three H. direction a US eight line would be for each direction but the point is that's an engineering and and a traffic count decision that are not way and we don't want to bind it into the constitution in that detail it's a multi lane highway what we generally refer to the freeway okay okay. That thank you Senator Hester field I guess my concern is we've already amended the constitution earlier today. I'm sorry ma'am we amended the constitution earlier today. By saying that we could have five thousand dollar contributions make it we that we can now have ten thousand dollar contribution. Other than five thousand dollar contributions as a limit we did that today do we not. Yes ma'am but that was on Amendment that specifically had a provision that allowed that it It enumerated in that regional amendment to the constitution. But will be done today would require the extraordinary vote in right now it only takes twenty four votes to do that yes ma'am I guess this would get in an I agree with what you don't I mean I agree with the concept I just am having heartburn about changing the constitution. Without putting it to the people to change it or the people putting it to us to change it that's my only concern about the whole thing it may be the best thing since sliced bread and I we I suggest that we ought to go ahead is a multi line and I know we have a an Avenue within the constitution to make that happen but it's always a concern when we do that. Because it seems to me then that we change the will of the people. Okay. To easily maybe maybe that's it may I respond to your comment because I think they're very important comments about a hundred years ago the and again this is how far we have to go back on this it was in the late teens and early twenties. Nineteen teens and nineteen twenties about a hundred years ago There was a movement in the in the nation for a initiative and referendum to give people power to preserve preserve or proposed legislation. And in Arkansas after much back and forth it took about six years of debates and lawsuits and everything to pass I'm at what's now amendment seven. And and that's an article five US six section one the. It is my interpretation and again this is simply as a as a student of history as a legislative student trying to learn this and follow it I read the there's a tremendous amount of research that's been done on it Dr Bobby Roberts is the former director of the central Arkansas library system loaned me his file which is over an inch thick on the history of this but to make it short. The it appears that the General Assembly put that language in before they would allow. The populist to propose and and to pass any kind of legislation they wanted some kind of a I will call a safety valve or whatever and the fact is Senator from the twenties until nineteen fifty one there was no question about it and since that nineteen fifty one decision we've been operating under a a more restrictive term but the but the point was that it would take an extraordinary majority to make those tweaks or changes but that I believe was the absolute intent of the General Assembly and once again we pass this and goes the Supreme Court and then they tell us what that intent was in that language so we're setting up a test case it definitely will require test case yes ma'am. In my opinion I'm not a lawyer is you will know it's a test case initiated by this body should it pass this bill. The attorney general's office has told me that they believed that they could defend this law and would certainly agree that we should have a decision to make its final of what the Supreme Court US says about that and so yes ma'am I consider to be a test case and it it would to and I guess it I I hate the. To the street I hate all of that does stuff like that you have a decision of the Supreme Court that allows us to do what we need to do now here we come amending the constitution in order to set up a test case to test what the courts of already see it. Which to me. Just. Even though the AG is it all yes I'll do this I'm not sure is good public policy and I don't like to see the people will of the people overturned quickly by the two thirds vote I think it ought to be very rare. And that's why I have a problem with your bill that's all thank you Mr well I I agree with you should be referred very rare and you may remember nineteen eighty two we passed a bill well you you may remember it as a citizen you may not remember it as a legislator or we have high interest rates and we passed a constitutional amendment to try to do some of that interest rates and it was not in my opinion there were some mistakes in it and it required yet another fix to come back in about four years to fix it again This would just allow. In a case like that where there was a slight tweak needed just like the difference between four line and multi line. Can be tweaked in this manner okay so no more anymore questions by the committee saying none is there anyone signed up to speak for against and just double check anybody in the audience that really needed to say anything on this saying none Senator you're recognized close for your bill. Thank you Mr chairman of. Yes senator Chesterfield wisely pointed out yes this will probably precipitated test case I think it's important that we have that we need to know that when there's something that would seem to violate the intent of the General Assembly and not the. Not absolutely do so but we it would require allow us to to meet and to make some changes I think that the language of four line instead of multi line is a great example of how something can be restrictive I think the court properly rule that words mean things and that when you say that that's what it means just like when they said the state of Arkansas can't be held of can't be sued in its on court after years of that going on the court five years ago or so rightly ruled that those words mean exactly what they say and so that's where I'm coming from with this we can pass this and the court can give us some clarity to the law of both on the highway issue and and on our ability to to use the the clear provision if you read the constitution it's very clear in Amendment seven that we can do this so I'm closing I would really appreciate a good vote. Okay I've got a motion to have the second. I got a motion I have a second all in favor say aye hi any opposed. The eyes have it congratulations your bill is passed thank you Mr chairman do you want me to. To take up another bill or should we. I'm not the I have four thirty eight. Four thirty eight of this is going to be his. Yes ma'am. We've got all these people have been sitting here for two or three hours who have come from a long way Mr. You're gonna be here. Okay so senator I have previously you're saying thank you I will skip over I don't know no wait a minute now I have another committee this meeting so you got I need to so yes I want to hear I want to clear this out center that's what you want to express my point person yes because I'm seeing all the spokesman of the State of Arkansas and I share your concern on that by the way. Senator Johnson please introduce yourself for the record and again okay could of. Actually can I get a copy for thirty eight and one of. I thank you mark Johnson's of senator senator District seventeen of. This is this is a bill that to. It permits of. Active duty military personnel and their dependents to obtain Arkansas driver's license when their license has been expired for more than thirty one days and under current law the spouse of a member of the military who is living outside in the United States due to deployment on duty can obtain a license if they're expired for more than thirty one days but we also want to extend that to the active military duty and their dependents of so it's it's really a cleanup bill this office the driver services will update the process to allow them to do this and if there's any training materials it would be the be created by driver services and the state police has signed off on it D. F. and is very supportive of this. Senate. I will accept one yes ma'am okay let's just double check is there anybody speak for against this bill. Saying so do I have a motion for immediate consideration. All right all in favor media consideration Is have it motion and we got a second any I'm closed all right close so I got I got to say again if you're for this bill yes. All right any opposed hearing and the eyes have it congratulations senator your bill passed thank you Mr chairman I'll be back here to answer. Senate. And I plan to. Okay of. I think we can make things move a lot quicker if we would death I wanna allow representative back to run House Bill sixteen twenty one which I think is a very simple bill and we'll fly that out here hopefully in and move all. Representative back you are recognized to present house bill sixteen twenty one. A representative Rick Beck from House District forty three. A House bill sixteen twenty one is a change to the the existing of. The speed trap law the existing law there's two ways that you can be does that a city can be designated as speed trap one is writing too many tickets for ten miles an hour or less this bill does nothing to change that the other area is when the city's revenue from their their tickets is higher than a certain portion of the previous year's expenditures now all this bill does is it changes the formula for computing the revenue from the from the speeding tickets and I think I explained that pretty easy with this let's say that Rick Beck got a speeding ticket in the two hundred dollars speeding ticket Rick Beck didn't show up in court he got a light the fire to appear in court late fees not I wanna let two hundred dollars can quickly turn into two thousand dollars hi so now as the law currently says when I finally. Make it a court and pay the aisle the city the revenue will be computed off of the two thousand dollars all the penalties in the late fees and all the stuff for not doing that when you have a small city. That doesn't have a lot of expenditures my my actions was that city had no could do nothing with resulted in them getting pushed over the limit as the speed trap law so all this does is it says okay you leave the cost of the ticket to two hundred dollars but you take away from that any of the things for me failure to appear to court and paying light all that stuff and that's all the bill does. Thank you have a question. Yes Sir Chesterfield if you're recognized as understanding you're not you're not saying that they have to waive the fees for you being late paying you're paying okay all the fees would still be paid to us that they wouldn't be included in the calculation against the state down the speech okay Gatch yeah okay thank you any other questions representative may. Okay and this is a county that's a committee that we brought to StartEngine formerly in my district sale and represent the ecstasy to it's a small town that of lower income people in its act could see how this could easily happen so any other. Question. Yeah any other any questions anyone the audience like to speak for against the bill. What's the motion of the committee do pass by Senator English second by Senator Murdock. Any discussion all in favor say aye hi posed. Regulations represent back you pass your bill thank you Mr thank you Committee in the let's move down chair yes and then we have several people speak for or against bills today I'd like to make a motion to the limited to by two three minutes per person per person okay that's a proper motion you will hear the motion senator hill is move that as we move through the today's only session that we will limit our discussion debate amongst testimony from the audience for three minutes per person. And and Senator English second at all in favor say aye hi okay motion passes so those of you. Yes. Some. We. We didn't cover that but I guess. I'll try to be let in his second. Something else that you is that okay if you Senator okay we'll we'll I'll use that discretion the chair thank you senator okay Are you ready to run that Senator English okay Senator English will run Senator hammers bill Senate bill four eighty one. And there's an amendment. Everyone get a copy of the amendment. Your second. Second amendment okay all favor say aye aye opposed minutes adopted. Senator English you're recognized to present to. Senate bill four eighty one as amended by the director to join now. Okay. Director tutor you are welcome to join us thank. Senator Jane English district thirteen and with me I am Director tutor the state highway department. Explain. Senate bill forty one simply adds and additional area to an already existing law Arkansas has authority to use cameras with an officer present in school zones and it railroad crossing this legislation would expand that authority to include work zones on high speed roads functionally classified as freeways or interstates this is an attempt to make our work sounds safer by enforcing speed laws in those and in those areas. Okay any questions for either Senator English or our director to. Okay then anything else she's close to the bill thank you pass motion do pass by Senator English second by Senator Murdock you discussion. As amended is amended. All in favor say aye. Opposed. Thank you your bill thank you very much. Glad to do it the quick Russian made eleven in the morning I can do thirty seconds. I don't. It takes me thirty seconds let me let me ask the mess the committee okay Committee representative Wardlaw would to we've we just want to skip by his bill but. Is that I know that but I I we have others are sitting here I I'm just going to ask the Committee okay with that. Mr rice I've just reiterate what center just for your senate ago we've had people Senator. We always know it in the session this stuff happens when the public as to set for like four hours it it it concerns me so if you're if you're the chair only to make the call that concern. Of. Representative would you be happy come back will be here eleven into O. seven at eleven o'clock in the morning we'll take it right thank you a. Senator stone Senate bill four ninety four. It It senators don't bill for ninety four. Sure reconnoiter happen defy yourself the record Senator milestones of state Senate district to speak Senate bill four ninety four. He's presenter real Sir Mr chairman members of the Senate bill four ninety four is a service safety for people in the logging business trucking business. Currently log trusting carry eighty five thousand pounds legally in the state of Arkansas on all roads except federal interstate highways or federal interstates. What we were asking is is to get direct are not to petition the federal government for an exemption in lock or twenty mile corridor approaching a meal currently what is happening a loaded log truck may have to go down a county road or state highway which is fine of their legal but they may have to route back through town to be go through in around the school's own through ran around residential area or through use downtown business to stay off the interstate where if we can have that corridor we can go hit the interstate but the inside twenty miles with the authorized exit border entry point and go into the mill safely without having to go into town and this is not just to let every log truck come in in that twenty mile corridor at random they would have to get authorization you get a permit by are not where they could regulated and make sure that is controlled so once again this bill was just authorized. In direct are not to petition the federal government for a waiver for twenty mile corridors when you said twenty mile quarters you mean that the most they would be on a section of interstate highway would be twenty miles or less that yes twenty miles or less okay. any questions by committee Senator style. Sir Clark. So is there a reason that we need legislation for this we told could you just go directly to the director asked her to do this make this request of the federal why do we need legislation. I think the reason why we have to have the legislation is to follow the protocol for them to go to the federal to the federal government. Leaving the roll call. Yes call yes please directed to the no well direct. She should not. She she ran off of the gum is deal is guilty or maybe just an hour. Do you want to know it seems like you should be to make a phone call or email Mister I would you identify yourself the record. And they relate to. Thank you Mr chairman commitments Justin Allen here today on behalf of the Arkansas forestry association center I would say the answer your question is because we want to show support we want to show support of the General Assembly on one hundred and thirty five of the if you believe that this is an important issue to the state into the issue and so that would send a message to Congress and I congratulate location this is something that you would like to see done that's much different bank you understand how that's different than it had to happen but I understand that thank you other questions Senator stone ridge trail. A. We have four people three three people signed up to speak out Mr chairman mathematics up the right quick yes Sir I know that the gentleman that are here to speak and I've driven a long way I also like to make a comment that the Arkansas forestry association is supporting this bill also the Arkansas timber producers association is supporting this bill I understand that we're in a time crunch in their stead a lot of people behind this and I think and I will acknowledge I don't step on the gentleman that drove up here but they're going to support and I essentially say the same thing that I just did and I'm not trying to limit them could coming up here anybody most here then by all means come on let's let's give the opportunity because we've already got a three minute limit but if you are comfortable with presentation by Senator stone just nod and say you're okay and we'll we'll move on okay gentleman thank you and I appreciate that. Five. Senator he'll go right question. Interzonal match or not opening something up and we're doing this for the forestry division what was the first train down this same concept to be done for row crop armors hauling grain cattle farmers polished up to the to the catalogs are they what what's the why are we singling this group out and leaving the rest on that. Well like you take like the evergreen meal outside of pine bluffs I mean it's got interstate runs right of right to the front door but log trucks can't legally get on it so they have to go back to the town of pine bluffs you know there are a lot of meals in a row that are in or around towns you know I'm not familiar with row crops but I don't know of any brass things that are raster sold any facilities that are that have the same problem on the interstate I'm not I'm not personally aware of but I'm not saying it doesn't exist my my my field of expertise is was with long treks record that there's actually a processing facility for harassing in Carlisle in lone oak interstate forty runs right through there and I know those farmers would like the same same opportunity to the overloaded truck and put on the road. Well the we're not overloaded trucks working already do legally eighty five thousand pound except on the interstate right with that's that's what I'm referring to so lady well by eighty five thousand more than eighty only out is I agree with that but once again we're looking at the safety factor and if grain trucks are having to go to inner and threw around schools for safety then I'm not be something that might that might need to be considered because at the end of the day this is a safety factor for the public also safety factor for the log trucks okay thank you Sir thank you. Yes ma'am grow is subject you document eighty five thousand pounds yes ma'am what is it going to do to the freeway is that going are you all going to be additional taxes or something in order to mitigate the damage that they could do on a highway or a most trucks eighty five thousand pounds most trucks are R. eighty thousand pounds where their casket lest I have a special permit yes to haul and over and over a thousand you Johnson aspen an additional five thousand yes my. The the difference between eighty thousand eighty five thousand on the road is going to connect to vote I don't think any to be manageable you know they don't pay extra money and I want to do that I'm I'm just yet okay yes ma'am. Okay these are thank you other questions percentage now. Anyone else that did not sign up for the audience that would like to speak for against the bill. If not was will by. Motion do pass by Senator Rice second by Senator English a discussion. All in favor say aye aye opposed. Motion passed your bills thank you senator thank you Mr chairman. Two bills. I'm sorry I'm sorry J. I didn't understand which ones for. Yes folks you that is three o'clock in the afternoon and we are right here in this. When you get to hear from them and let them soak at. We have yet to important bills one of which Senator Tucker asked me to run form regarding central high and the last flight. But hi I appreciate what you're saying I can get to it and apologized representatives for use having to wait but it was ten at the bottom and we'll make we'll make it right and we'll everyone will have their three minutes to speak of. I will send. Senator. For now we can we can do is which one is it. That's representative makes bill. Okay Senator English you're recognized president those bills. Thank you senator Jane English district thirteen and Senate and house bill fifteen fifty five basically as the requirements for meetings to add an address an incident through the for all the public entities and basically what this says is that it the report can be made to the information technology communications Committee in private that each of these state cybersecurity. Attacks or whatever don't have to be reported out public. That's for security reasons not so it is okay so we don't have it because the and it begins permit somewhere and all kinds of things like that. If you have some entity that they can deal with these with these attacks. They don't want to tip the hand of their methodology for protecting us from the that clean any other questions for Senator English on this bill. He won the audience thank. R. S. members like to speak for against the bill. If not what's the will of committee. Close bill. Thank motion do pass do pass by Senator English second by Senator Murdock any discussion. All in favor say aye hi. Speak up folks opposed. Motion carries thank you very much of and move on to thirteen sixty nine and at thirteen of the Senator Jane English district thirteen I'm sorry ma'am Senator Jane English district thirteen president housed in a different number it is not we are talking about fifteen seventy nine. Thirteen sixty nine of thirteen sixty nine yeah we're both having a hard time seeing Mr Wardlaw and basically what this does is it requires public entities to create a policy concerning the authorized the use of technology resources and a cyber security policy so everybody has to have a cyber security policy an act have a policy on how to use computers and cell phones and all that if you're working in the public all these different agencies. State government of. Any questions Senator English on that. If not he won the audience like to speak for against the bill. Not was will the committee. Motion to pass by Senator Hill. Second by Senator English the discussion all in favor say aye aye opposed congratulations senator you not to allow the park. Of. Hi I'm going to be presenting house bill fourteen eighty five but I will hold it till the end of the meeting indifference to a representative eleven represented eleven feet like present house bill fifteen sixty three I know that's why most people are here and lots of. If it's okay. Okay. Thank you. Nine. Representative and you're recognized to present your. Thank you Mr thank you members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to present today. State representative Brian Evans District sixty eight. Bringing you house bill fifteen sixty three in two thousand seven. The General Assembly found it necessary enacted to amend. Possessory lien law. I believe that they felt at that time that the original intent was to broadens to vague. The change was supported at that time and I believe the language was drafted by the Attorney General at that time I believe is in the room today. The law is amended to create a clear exemption for items that could not be held under the state's possess retelling laying those items. Stated in the current statute. Or personal legal documents child restraint seating prescription eyeglasses cellphones books. Medications wallets prosthetics and photographs. I ask the question why was it necessary to draft legislation two thousand seven to exempt these items are not be included under the possessory lien. I believe it was two fold. I believe it was necessary there was a necessitated need for those items not to be kept under the lane. And held by the towing company. Because it was never the intent of the law. Secondly and most importantly because the driver of the vehicle that was in the tone that was in the situation of being towed only those the those items those items that were now exempt. They were needed for them to conduct their business they were needed for them to go about their personal lives and about their way. Today we're talking about the exemption of cargo in commercial transportation. I think it's important that we establish the definition of cargo and that is stated in the bill. Cargo is defined as goods and materials being transported by motor carriers. That includes pallets packaging and securement systems that might be tangent to any load and re purposed during trans loading. By law who is the owner of the cargo is being shipped down our highways. The owner of any goods. Shall be the shipper this is federal law the owner shall be the shipper as the person that loaded the truck. The consummate as a receiver as the people that's going to receive the load when it's delivered. Or other respective Agen that's in reference to a freight forwarder so when a load of cargo comes in by ship. It's offloaded off that ship into a warehouse that were house room by freight forwarder and at that point they take possession of that and they are the owner until it is put on a truck and shipped off at that point the ownership is relinquish from the free for. The law goes on to say that the owner of the cargo shall not include the operator of the truck. What governs the cargo while it's in transit. It's called a bill of lading the bill of lading is a document accompanying cargo. States the agreement of the shipper while the goods are in transit it details the commodity being transported the weight of the product in the pieces in the shipment and gives very specific details instructions. Such as the address to deliver the product to. And it gives title of ownership to the receiving party so in other words the bill of lading would say twenty six pallets of bottled water forty two thousand pounds and deliver it to. Mark Johnson's warehouse in Maumelle Arkansas. So what is this bill do. Number one it defines cargo. Which we have done in the bill secondly it adds cargo to the list of items exempt because the motor carrier. Delivering the goods does not own the cargo by law. Insurance claims if you've ever been involved in one can take weeks to settle. What this bill does is it allows the cargo to be move through the supply chain all the insurance companies and the tow companies arbitrate their settlements. What is the bill not due. It's not a referendum a referendum on tow operators it doesn't establish any type of fee structure or any limitations to their fees state of Arkansas towing industry regulates themselves. And secondly it's not intended to relieve any company from paying for services that have been provided. Again this only gets the cargo moving while the insurance process is worked out. The overreaching ambiguity of the statute allows a practice that negatively impacts the supply chain. Denies consumer protection it can have a stifling impact on constituents daily needs. Who benefits from this policy change. The benefits the entire economy of Arkansas why because in Arkansas we make things we grow things we buy and sell things and we transport things Arkansas has more trucking companies in trucking company jobs per capita than any other state in the nation. When shipments of cargo or held hostage every sector of the supply chain from the grower wholesaler to the retailer with consecutive Sumer negatively impacted all of which are our constituents. This bill represents. The support of the associated industries of Arkansas the poultry federation will sell beer distributors the Arkansas auto dealers association Arkansas retail grocers association the Arkansas state chamber in the Arkansas trucking association. Share this time I'll be glad to take any questions. Thank you Mr. Questions of the representative eleven on House Bill fifteen sixty three senator rice I'm sorry Sir Chesterfield thank you Mr chair and as a person who was here when it was when those exceptions would put their I can tell you specifically why and that's because they were personal items owned by individuals that might be needed rest this medicine. Shall restrain seating wallets purses on those things or immediate need. That's why that list was put there it had nothing to do with cargo it had very much to do with this is what people need you cannot operate without prostate. You need yourself. So that's why that this was putting in because it was about personal items that needed to be used by the individual in their immediacy so just want to clarify that thank you. Other questions. Senator Rice. Thank you I'm getting older and I don't spend a lot of time. Dance around bush anymore. You're not tall this bill could actually. Impact me in a positive way is a retailer although I don't have that much stuff that has the opportunity to come in in being conflict it could. I will. People who do the job to get paid. I will people who paid for their goods are going to have to pay for their goods to get their goods. It is extremely frustrating not just me that many people that we can come to some. Determination. What would fix this problem. It's not the first time I'm. I've been in things that are are this frustrated frustrating day. I don't understand. Why you can't come up with some type of a and again I know Arkansas okay be of a loan deal when the United talked about federal. The legislation that could fix this. But I have not yet been clear why some bond. Could not guarantee. Payment for a total operation. Also. Don't tell the others two thousand and ten. I took a little one wrecker gentleman loaded him up in my car and taking the total board got some straightened out while I was there I heard some agreed use big tow operators cases. And they got hammered by the board should have. I think that's what still needs to happen. I'm asking you why that can't happen less penalized the bad Biggers. Bad bad people that did bring eight records out of her to the job when they're not needed maybe they need to pay that payment on those records. The one we've heard in I watched a two and a half are House committee meeting from nine thirty Sunday night when I got here to amend that watched every bit of two hours and thirty minutes of play. Why can we not come to some form of amendment that would fix this. In resolve both sides at least to get it down the road can you give me that that's a great question Senator Rice appreciate you asking that I've I have been in the transportation industry for close to thirty years. This has been a problem for that long it is each year goes by it continues to be a bigger problem. I at the facilitation of the Arkansas trucking association there was a meeting held in December. Involving the. Representation of the trucking industry I believe representation of the associated industries Arkansas trucking association myself my director of operations. And members of the Arkansas towing and recovery board. I came there in good faith. To try to help fix this problem because this problem continues to get bigger. And. I ask the simple question what is the solution please provide us with a solution. That will fix this problem for the towing industry to make sure they're made whole for the services that they provide. They had no solution. I ask again you've got to give me a solution there's got to be something that we can fix it the prevailing factor this is that we're talking about interstate highways interstate commerce. The. This is a federal insurance issue. I was given a document of an old bill for an increase in the certi bonded towing companies have to provide in order to get their license. The I did not feel like that that was an adequate way to solve this problem because it nothing to do with the insurance. To regards the towing and recovery board that was their answer try to get rid of the egregious bad players that you referenced in in your comments. That did not fix this problem. In January there was phone conversation regarding the same issue asking again for a solution. So any recovery board continue to tell me that this is a this is a problem they're aware that this is a problem there was no solution provided from that day. Until last week there have been no solutions offered whatsoever to fix this problem other than. A suggestion of what you're speaking of and that being some type of bond today at eleven thirteen. I received an amendment proposal if the chair will allow me to read a document that was sent to me today I will communicate with the amendment opportunity Wallace please proceed Sir. Rison deleted language offered from the bill. And then it out and that was offered as payment in full or proof of approved submitted insurance claim for all undisputed charges for towing recovery and storage for which the owner is liable. Secondly posting of a bond in the amount of an ever disputed ballots for towing recovery and storage for which the owners liable. Third the owner disputing any balance shall file a complaint with the Arkansas towing and recovery board identifying specific reasons for disputing the balance the board shall be responsible for judicata plan within a timely manner. Towing and storage firm shall not call in the bond in the disputed amount for late for at least sixty days unless the board makes a final adjudication on the complaint prior to sixty day. So I wanted to do my due diligence I felt like I knew what the answer was to this but I want to do due diligence I made two phone calls. First I call the largest insurance provider for trucking companies in the United in North America. And I presented this to them and I said tell me how will this work can this work and if so how would it work. Regarding number one payment in full or proof of approve submitted insurance claim. I was told that the certificate a certificate of insurance showing all active coverages would be provided immediately to the towing company however no insurance company will provide the proof of the guaranteed payment. FOR a submitted insurance claims. So I ask about the bond. So what about some type of bond. They said there are companies that do right bonds there are not many. The process is very slow. It typically takes weeks to get a bond process in order. To provide some type of guarantee like this. There would be a fee attached that would be somewhere in the average of fifty dollars per thousand dollars of the value of the bond. Which then you're asking the provider to provide cash collateral. Any underlying factor that is that this is not timely in the cargo still not moving. So I ask about some type of contingent policy. Could. a a third party could a shipper could they provide some type of contingent cargo policy. That would pick up in the event. The could be used as additional proof in the event that the transportation companies insurance the fall. They said there are contingent cargo policies out there. however by law those do not kick in until sixty days after the initial primary policy has been declined. So once again we're at a sixty seventy usually eighty day process minimum before that policy would be enacted and you're looking at another two to three months of that cargo is sitting there not and splashing so based upon what I was presented for amendment today none of those are doable to fix the problem taking that loaded cargo that's been involved in a breakdown or an accident that is true. As you know of being someone who sells goods that come in by the truckloads everything today is J. IT. And every load no matter what it is bottled water pet food dishwashers everybody needs it yesterday. And as we've gone through especially the last two years of major disruptions in supply chain across the United States it makes it worse. And so I would contend that the only option. To fix the problem at the towing companies have is to get the level of insurance that a motor carrier must carry to be an amount to be number one to be a mandated amount that would be acceptable to the towing industry to make sure that their services were paid properly. I spent two and a half hours last week. With members of two separate associations. Outside of the towing and recovery board. Working on the same solution and I committed to them. That we get this bill passed so that we can get loads that are transload will that aren't damaged transload on to the owner. That owns those goods and get it on down the road get it delivered get it in that supply chain. That I would carry the torch for them to make sure. From the federal level which. All of our federal delegation is already been engaged. Our congressman Rick Crawford said as the chair of the subcommittee on highways he's fully engaged on this they're already working on this issue and I committed to them that I would carry the torch to help them get this fixed. To my knowledge and my experience in this industry for close to thirty years that is the only remedy is to change federal law on to the minimum amount of insurance the motor carrier must have. To pay for cargo and or pertaining cargo storage recovery on loads of goods. Okay. To be fair to both sides. In a perfect world. If the delivering carrier had the right amount of insurance they're reputable carrier that's not where the problem really is correct from I'm going back from the testimony you know I I I've seen situations senator rice where you had one of the premier carriers in the United States who had premier insurance but for whatever reason that cargo was held while the insurance company the wall took time to get the adjuster out there to inspect cargo get that paperwork that claim process could claim opened get that educated the insurance company agreed whatever the charges are made of an insurance company is is a four star insurance provider and and they're providing you know twenty five thousand dollars of coverage. But as we've seen in many of these bills the towing and recovery bill is forty fifty sixty thousand that's not uncommon. Then the insurance is not going to pay the balance of that twenty thirty forty thousand dollars. And I believe quite often that that's one of the cargo the and becomes unclaimed. Because towing company currently has by law they have the right to hold that and then once they have exhausted their average with the insurance provider settle their invoice. That's when the cargo is potentially sold for whatever value it's not in the supply chain the actual owner of the cargo has no say in it whatsoever. That manufacturer that buyers going to turn around and spend fifty eighty hundred thousand dollars to buy another load while the product that they owned is now sold out in the marketplace for okay if I can operation Mr. Have clarify for me systems with limited time to those be able to speak again I'll watch the two and a half hours. Clarify for me if it what what the testimony was true. If it's just a turnover to set back up in the products not heard. It needs to needs to move yes Sir that's all we're talking about but we're also talking about sometimes the there if product is damaged may be. Spoilage The trailers are just basically scrap in trucks some of them are I believe I heard some three to six thousand dollars for for trucks is Ali would bring in in the trailers very little so there's really not much there to recoup if they're trying to cover their bill and they were a certified. Totaling record that had the clean up diesel spill other stuff on interstate it It is. Where possible there's not enough there in savage of the truck and trailer to get close to covering the cost is that right. I would agree that that that very well could be right you know the market's gonna bear whatever the prices of that truck that trailer depending on the condition of it to make your making model whether there's been a fire there's a lot of factors involved that and I I you know I understand their situation. But the transaction of that situation. Had absolutely nothing to do with the person who owns that cargo. And they should not be penalized or made into that transaction and be leveraged with their goods against potentially a debt that's not collectible and as a business owner in this state the state does not guarantee me. By allowing some leverage tactic on my part to collect on accounts receivable I mean that's this is capitalism is a business risk and they take on great respect of a lot of money invested in their equipment I understand that but the person that owns that cargo has a lot of money. Invested in that lower cargo and if it's not damaged it's not it is transferable that it needs to be moved the owner of that product needs to spill to send another truck and get that load. Get it on down the road all ocean business that have resisted and and we we have to spread it around to be able to stay in business I hope somebody touches on the Testimony of the. To buy may say it's not going to happen but if it gets bad enough losses when somebody that are not state police calls and they don't come out on the non consent. Good clean that up. Thank you measure I believe and that's a great point and I believe that you know as much as I've state and I stated in testimony that the fix for this is federal I don't know what we as a state can do to fix this however with exactly what you're saying we're talking about state highways county highways we're talking about we we just got through talking about logging trucks center he'll talk about loads grain. we're talking about safety and at some point I believe that whether it's our died or state agency has got to step up and figure out that process is well somebody's got to be responsible for that in these these companies you know the answer the call we're not we're we're not questioning anything about business their business practices that has nothing to do this is simply a matter of taking a load of cargo it's not damaging transload bull that the trucking company does not own they can't have that as leverage against what they own are or what they owe you we don't believe that the towing company should be able to utilize that leverage or something that's transaction between two parties in a cargo was not involved. I want only one thing this stuff Mr chairman and go along with. What to Senator Rice question was do with a lot of the people who buy truck truckloads at ten in since COVID expect every culture equipment they have to pay for poor put on my truck. So they have actually already paid for that it's being hailed by someone else is that fair that man that may have. Five four thousand dollars invested in equipment. This section there in someone else's tell your he can't sale he's paying interest on that the bank is that fair to him you may sit there thirty days. That's money out of his pocket and plus you're going to step for the you have people waiting on that a lot of it is already pre sold. And so this this affects a lot a lot too so we're we're come a different segment in just what. Representive eleven Delaware come up people who who are needing this equipment we've actually already paid for and they can't get their equipment or other property. Thank you senator search field thank you thank you Mr chair and I appreciate. All of what is being said. And I have continually ask I asked the young lady that was representing you and I've asked the trucking associate the tow trucking association why can't you get to common ground and I keep hearing what you can't do. And I'm not hearing what you can do. Because what people have a wheel to get to common ground they get there. As to the cargo being healed the cargo holder should have some responsibility rather than just saying how much stuff. But you don't get paid for it. Which is a concern of mine because people are not to do work without getting paid for it. So how do we work that so that. You get your you get your material out your great out. And at the same time the person gets paid for doing what he or she. Is doing or ultimately is it going to end up with. The towing company simply saying if I'm not going to get paid and it got takes four five days to pick it up I gotta deal with it and just leave it on the ground and say will only tell the truth. How do we get around that because I think I always believe you can get to common ground if you try. You know maybe I'm police that way but I truly believe that there has got to be some common ground somewhere that would get us to this situation because I appreciate both sides of the issue. Both sides but I don't I'm not going to be cable calling stuff in and not getting paid for it. And I don't advocate you keeping folks stuff a long period of time so is there a number of days that you can keep it until it gets picked up what's the responsibility of the person that owns the the great stuff what's what's their responsibility why can't they say that I will pick up if you have to haul me I will pick up my material within three to four days. And I'll pay you for that what you gonna get on some kind of time before you start buying of the stuff that would preclude you having to pay to have the expense of buying new cargo. When you can get yours out in three to five days I just don't understand maybe it sounds simplistic and my solution is very simplistic but there's gotta be a way to reach some common ground here and I have been saying that the last week or so and. I'm not sure we're really trying to get to common ground that's what's troubling me. Okay. Thank you senator Chesterfield's senator rice and I. He represented eleven I agree for what they said and we we wish you could but while the legislative process takes great joy in people working out compromises ultimately. You have a bill and we have to hear it in we get to vote so I want to I'm all and no Sir Murdock also has a question I just wanna say I appreciate your both of your comments about that and the questions from senator ricin senator chest senator Mark. Thank you chair and and I guess you know is it becomes redundant at this point because we have. Two parts of the industry all part of industry they should be need to be treated fairly for providing the service of the the the the prepaid about a cargo I obviously need to get that I need my stores to get to the breed in the whatever is given to the stores and get on get on get on the shelves and the people to go out to the tow companies go out and do the work when there's a breakdown they need to get paid I've been in business a long time and deal with many facets of a business and I'm never heard of this before whereby there is one facet of the relationship that fails in. But they seem to be. paralyzing the relationships. What. I think so so we have a bill one government enters into a. Do business like we're doing here then we can't enter and in my opinion we can't enter to business. Relationships and then we choose a winner or loser. If we enter we got to be fair to everybody. That cargo receivers you get their paid for a tow truck that did the work they should get everybody should be made whole if we write if we get involved we can get involved and leave somebody not whole. In my opinion. So going back to what Senate Chesterfield said somewhat Senator Rapert said it probably what you want to happen as well. Is how can we make all this work well I think what we have to do what we do in the construction industry is we require. That every entity has the financial ability. To stand up for their side of the review questions wherever that is it seems as though somewhere in this relationship that's not happening. Because sometimes be a level in the bay Health so now we get a hold of Kabul as as a leverage if you will until we get amount so that has to be able to be fixed I don't know that there's a bill I mean. It the problem with the bill is that it leaves somebody not whole. And I just think we got to find a fix but I think you guys need to find a fix to this so thereby to be okay would you agree that we need to try to make everybody okay. Or should we leave. The toll the towing industry what a remedy a good remaining should we leave the cargo receivers without getting their product no. Neither one of them should we do. S. government. Thank you Sir Murdock I guess you know I had three senators beseech you Senator Murdock with him that would answer questions in there that it. Third one senator hill I think you can't can I get more words you can we all get along is kind of what it's saying and I appreciate that Senator Clark yes thanks excuse me for bouncing back and forth between two committees but. Of. The I think the problem I know the problem is way better than just what you're trying to fix the and if it were my car roll. Of I know how I would feel also if I were the tow truck operator I know how I would feel it amazes me actually that we've gone this far without. Attempting to fix it or fixing it and I appreciate you trying to do that of. You know one of our forefathers of In. the tone in the of the truck the cargo except for. I am not aware that there is any type of federal or state mandate that limits that if there is I'm just not it's just that I'm not aware of it it's my understanding that it is an unregulated industry they regulate themselves if there is a dispute on the amount that has been charged then there is a process to the Arkansas towing and recovery board where they will take that disputed invoicing and they will lead you to Kate that through some process that they have in the end if they feel that the person is paid that invoice has been over charged and there is a fine where refund can be paid back to to the claim. Is there any limit because I think these factors all come into play is there any limit to how much storage can be charged not that I'm aware of no Sir. Okay. Of. So. I think that could exacerbate of. Why some people on the other side are not behaving well of. The. The. Can you understand how. Those who operate tow trucks bill about wanting to hold on to the cargo. Yes Sir I do you know. In every in every industry there's bad actors there's bad trucking companies there's bad shippers and receivers. there's bad builders. But in in this industry we as a state have chosen not to regulate that have chosen. We have not chosen you know up to now we have to now we have not chosen to regulate that and and I just. You know as a it is is I was engaged and and was working on this. I try to look at all sides of this issue. If if this is if this inability to properly collect on the invoice amount that the towing and recovery company has charged that they believe that they are doing. In fairness to the ethics of their industry. Why have we not heard about that. Why have. Why isn't anyone at this table centre Murdock said I have been in business for years and I've never heard that this was an issue. Well this is an issue and. I don't I would be seeking if I was in the towing industry I would have been seeking a solution a long time ago. As I've talked to our federal delegation and I said. Why have you not ever fix this before we did not know that this was an issue. And so I believe that the and I I hate to use the word comfort but I believe somewhat the comfort in fixing the solution was in my opinion the greatness of the area of the statute that allowed them to keep the cargo. As in the possessory lien to keep that hostage and then if the invoice was not settled they could sell that and and I know that their situations that they have when they sell that cargo it probably doesn't pay them in whole it doesn't make them hold I believe one of the gentleman that testified last week or are we before made the comment that even with this they still write off I believe it was twenty two percent other charges. that's that's a tough business model and I'm sympathetic to that but. This is not been a big enough issue in the industry to where they came. Within themselves or to the General Assembly or the you United States Congress to fix it. And only until we we came with this is that we want to be able to move this cargo now all of a sudden we're hearing that this is a big issue. In this state you know we had volunteer fire departments and they're still Walter park forms you wonderful people but it's not so much volunteer because we gave everybody's there's no or the state is not covered and you have to respond. Is that the case here is is there anyone who has to respond and and go do this work on I'm not in the towing industry so when they come to testify that they could provide a clear answer to that but it's my understanding that there is what's called consent and non consent the consent as I understand it is someone makes a call to your towing fireman says Hey would you come take care of this and you have the opportunity to say yes or no the non consent list you place your company on that your honor rotated by volunteer your on a rotating basis that's monitored by the Arkansas state police when they respond they call into their dispatch and say I've got an accident your call the next one on the list so. It is voluntary so if somebody's doing this is not because they have to this because our volunteering to to do it is that correct that is how I understand the not less than two but that's that's my understanding because this pills because a lot of research in the last few days that's my understanding also and so I think Senator Rice made a good point. Then if if this bill change things so drastically that they can't make a profit at the obvious answer would be don't be on the list and then of course then we'll have to come back. I don't think that'll happen but then we'll have to come back. And fix that is that correct I would agree thank you. Okay. Sir Murdock. The conversation gets so interest has we listens as I listen to the thinking of of of how we got here so obviously we talk about U. S. why had they come in my mind is because they have been able to somewhat. Get a whole hi. By holding the cargo holding a letter as Landry and ultimately the card but if you notice that it probably has not been good for the tow companies in that way because if you go around to any toll company is reputable I know in my area what do you see you see a yard school. Of stuff. I don't see the tow companies that just have just green grass it is because probably they've been left with in various ways various things that were not what they were not a whole so I I again I think the focus should be. To make it so that we get to hold this and that we figure out a way to do that and I think the we can do that and when we don't want to become where. Safety become an issue and we have. Massive wrecks and spills and things I'll write highways and we don't have anyone to go and take care of those it takes special people with special equipment very expensive equipment to go out there as you will know and take care of those situations and many times we know is even lifesaving situations so hopefully we can we can get the. Thank you senator. Comment back in which what is your sense and I do appreciate what you're saying we will make the tow truck drivers hole about my many paid for that cargo center have money invested he need to be made whole to. He's got a family to feed as well. Let's let's not forget my gas or to pay for that loan money to right but the guy that's both those equipment without to and fix it made the call they they as well so that's why I'm saying when we entered the wrong as government now this is. Always take risks on their own but when we enter the fray we have to be fair to everybody we are here to phase one of this was done back in oh seven what was that whenever this was of the previous bill is passed the lead what with what what we're trying to correct okay. So we we've entered into this we mess up once I read it was entered into this before. What we believe will. We. You may have please only person here from that transportation technology in this state of affairs committee we did not mess up we were delivered and what we excluded this was not something that they would be personal items like medications. restraints eating while let's of purses prescription eyeglasses prosthetics cellphones the time with the books and and now they want to and cargo but we had a specific list that dealt with personal items that individuals have to have you have to have the prostate you need your glasses you cannot hold those things so we don't make a mistake we did what we did it deliberately and now they are asking us to expand upon it but that is not to say we made a mistake senator Reid and I'm I never allude to the fact the mistake was made my mom yeah I see that and I stand corrected that with the remedy them with the whole car go give the personal items the necessity but the whole the cargo which is where we are today then we have a check they have a chance to be made whole two I guess selling or whatever that caramel so now As you a car go to the list of what they must deal then we got to have give them a balance to that to say how do they get home that can be a part of the equation. Thank you senator Murdoch senator Chesterfield five I will try to keep this little bit on the subject at hand. Well I'm. Your context is important and I appreciate you bringing it up but we've got to come back to twenty twenty three unfortunately and deal with the matter. I know you all did a great job back then but we got it we got to deal with what's in front of us at the moment yes ma'am of I have other other questions of the committee for either a representative Evans or Senator Hill. If not we will start to are signed up witnesses the first Witness against is Greg Cochran Mr Cochran if you come forward. Mr Cochran that red light is on you're welcome to identify yourself for the record and give your testimony Greg Cochran from alma Arkansas. Please proceed Sir. Thank you Mr chairman members of the committee for the opportunity to speak today. twenty seven fifty twelve oh two twenty seven to twelve oh eight the industry I was there with Mister Chesterfield mystery was in the back those items that were released for personal lines their cargo takes a tremendous amount of labor you really can't compare the two but that was why that was written just as Mr Chesterfield stated. You'll hear stories today for my opponents when they lack details about a car hauler that was impounded. In Little Rock area with a customer's car on it they've been paid for the customer had a app to tell where the car was that and founded J. hook towing and North Little Rock. The customer one of their car they'll tell you the token code the tow company was holding hostage but when in fact the transmission was out the owner J. hook is here a contest upon this as well. So once the customer the car customer realized. They can't get it down because it's up on top the transport rig they understood you also just keep in mind there's always two sides to every story when when you listen to these you know what the bill is also built on the presumption that everybody has insurance I'm sorry to everyone of everyone of you have a. Under insured or not insured motors policy on your own on the coverage on your own policy you realize that even though as several represented eleven stated it's federal law they have X. Y. Z. insurance my office is approximately two miles from Arkansas highway police Y. station two three times a month every month we impound trucks on their behalf even though it's federal law you have license tag CDL drivers and USDOT number two three times a month we impound trucks that do not meet those compliances and honestly it's it's not the Arkansas trucks we have very little trouble Arkansas I can work correct for Tyson within two hours I've got a PO we deliver their love maverick JB hot they all realized they're responsible for that bill they get a PO when we move on so not everybody has it has a proper insurance and at times we had a little orange is several months ago that had progressive insurance way I immediately call progress to the next day tell them that a lot of cargo produce and my facility that need to move quickly as produce it will deteriorate a week later I called the second time I'm their friend of INR forty years can the claim number. And he said well we're working on day ten he called me and the company had full policy they deny the entire claim because the trucking company did not have a permitted driver in that truck they did not they all claim I never got paid anything. The. Part of the online hearing is usually Mr **** we limited debate two three minutes per person I want to grant you about thirty more seconds but one remind all witnesses we're limited by a vote of the committee to thirty seconds some of grants you little leeway Sir that thirty more sex. To get my thoughts together then I'll politician on Ross and I was home visitation is or maybe so we'll be explaining the problem you have not heard from our industry. Because this is not a state problem like representative and stated we we do Interstate Commerce there's not a lot you all could have done to make some mine California proper insurance I've personally talked with chief Thompson Arkansas highway police many times down through the years on how they could to verify proper insurance there's not a national database that we can check trucks as they come in our state for property insurance I guess that's all about thank you Mr Crocker thank you and any questions of this witness. Thank you Sir. Thank you Sir thank you and I will remind everyone I'm just going to be fair but follow the a motion that the committee passed would allow three minutes for each witness next to speak for is share in every. Mr Everitt please identify yourself for the record you're welcome to Percy. Chairman thank you for having me members of the committee. My name is Shannon Everitt I am the owner of pinnacle express it's a trucking company based here in Little Rock Arkansas we specialize in refrigerated goods so a lot of what we all in some of your food products for your major food producers here in the state of Arkansas state's brought. I've been in the industry for over twenty years background from another large carrier here in the state lots millions at that larger care we ran over a million miles a week. And so I have a in my time I've seen a lot of accidents been around a lot of situations were co trucks are involved in the scene some of those bills. And it's been but been involved in along those negotiations with the towing companies in the clean ups. And I just want to elaborate just real quickly just about the nature of our industry you know a lot of times we have these interactions we have these exchanges with the tow companies we don't know who they are it's very uncommon for us to get to pick I heard us talking earlier about consent non consent in most of our cases it's non consent we don't the towing company is there the records in Virginia that's in Illinois it's in Indiana they go through that lottery and a pick the next towing company they send them out and so we don't get a say in it And so because we don't get a say we never have any contract negotiations with them there's no fee negotiations with them I don't know anybody at the towing company and we don't have a right to choose anyone else. And so the incident that I want to talk to you about today actually did happen in Little Rock Arkansas was on interstate thirty out here in southwest little rock. We had a trailer that caught on fire the trailer was not in a record was not scattered across the road there was not a the truck was not involved in a wreck so there was no debris the trailer was actually parked on the shoulder of the road out of the way of of the of the traffic and kind of in the grass the trailer caught fire so driver disconnected from the trailer pulled the truck away from the trailer. And yet the the towing company insisted that they tow trucks of the driver got me on the phone said Hey they're trying to tell the truck as to tell in the Kanto the truck I I had an engagement with the tow truck driver on the scene ended up the tow truck driver gets in the truck and drives away and that's after he had bought the truck in with the tow truck in front of the truck and a tow truck behind drug. And so he drove he drove the truck. You know there was nothing wrong with the truck there's no damage to the truck so I mainly pro tested went out to the location of the location here in Little Rock Arkansas said Hey you should have that truck you need to release the truck immediately and their their claim to us was well we will soon as you pay the bill we don't have a bill this was this was on I think it was Monday when I went up there so it's a couple days since the scene since the incident still have a bill is so we'll get the truck when you pay the bill number member the guy drove the truck weight was never even told the tow truck driver got in and drove it to the scene we call the towing board acetone Board for help. Come to find out later in testimony in court because we settle for replevin conversion that the towing board according to testimony at the hearing gave permission of four told the owner of the company that it was okay to take the truck. your time is up Sir if you can okay rap up quickly all right and so I would just I would say I'm for the bill I think the consumers in the public should have laws and regulations that prevent rogue operators from voting equipment and cargo hostage to support and reasonable invoice thank you any questions of this witness Senator Rice. It's rather urgent story The the truck that was towing. Know what truck was driven off who gave him the keys. I don't know the answer to that it's very common in our industry for a diesel engines to be left Ron and I would I would I would be guessing but the truck of electronic okay it was your trucks yes was not your driver yes it's moderate was your driver your drivers responsible for that truck yes why do not turn it into the left. we didn't we I I didn't know at the time exactly I don't remember the details of all that we being considered. I didn't even think of it really being theft until later after we got to thinking about House or distort before and and I'm sure don't agree with if if I recall the scene by the who were they Arkansas state police Arkansas state police. All the non consent. Great day didn't and they came in Arkansas state police term would bring to record. I have no idea what Arkansas state wisdom are you suing yes we're in we're in a lawsuit right now for going to be a question and a lawyer would want to ask in court today yes the request to records or did they bring a cause because they need to make a record. one of the attorneys that represents me in the case is present here and I think it's testify today so it's a question okay I I would I would like out. This is the stuff that that we're frustrated with we will the stock under things to stop. It's four to be use ASP call record that big record these to get there somebody knows that big record Robert. In a committee to private pay somebody that drove your truck all I had to turn it in is immediately I was a they were not authorized to drive that truck all I'm guessing so I call I mean they called my attorney not attorney told me to call the towing and so that's what I did I called on call them but I added to my driver you don't ever let somebody drive your truck all. I'm just too stubborn for that I guess but anyway meddling gets mother information thanks are you probably wouldn't again either like Senator rice but you hindsight is twenty twenty is a I handle those situations completely different now they do thank you Sir any other questions for Sweden's centre Murdock. How would removing the lien on cargo affect your situation well in in my particular situation you know that the trailer was on fire so the cargo was burnt but I think it demonstrates the leverage that used to to get some of these towing expressly the one in my case the towing bill sixty four thousand dollars it started out of sixty four thousand by the time and storage is over ninety thousand dollars and so it's it's a form of leverage that they used to get these bills paid and the cargo not belonging to me and not belonging to the tow company should never have any leverage put against right but in your situation the card he was burned so there would there is not a applicable it the that you apply in this an application to apply in this situation don't apply because it was not because it was according to what you're saying it was burned so there was no leverage piece today Hey so how does that I think my demonstrates very well what could happen in if that situation had been a little strawberries on a trailer and the fire not been on the maybe been on the truck right but it didn't happen in your situation with a separate that's my point it did this don't that don't apply to your situation that you gave as an example that's all I'm saying if you to get was strawberry example then you would have a relative example the one you gave didn't have a lien holding example. And unfortunately in our industry like I explained every one of these incidents and I think this tokom is that none of these things are the same in all of these things are gonna be drastically different so. Thank you thank you thank you Sir Sir Chesterfield thank you very much I I'm just flabbergasted that somebody gave me your keys away. There's got to be something more than that but who was responsible for for removing the barns yes if they just sit there and just barn and. Who will move that yes so there wasn't the fire was on the back of the trailer and some of the cargo still on the ground that the actual or I'm sorry the tow company that responded used a some kind of equipment to load up the cash used in school out on the ground so the towing company did pick up your cargo that was damaged and removed the other part that is built on the ground we picked up the damage trailer after it was replaced on the release by the court there was still cashews on the trailer okay the card is still on trial I'm trying to find out who moved. Did you just sit down the side of the road somebody moved off center road Asher recommend all right thank you. Other questions. Thank you Sir for your testimony. Has speak against is Mr wine Edwards. Strid rich please identify yourself the record you might say that they have to have a three eleven I'll try to thank you Mr chairman Wayne Edwards NO one it was parked served like Village I'm forty seven years in this business and this bill would probably shut me out of business but students conversations to Mexico no money in it would make a change on at all that burned deal that's them of the change he never paid anybody or that I'm on the board. And one of my things about this bill. A for seven years it had been awhile I have a ten percent thank you all cargo in the state of Arkansas. I've been on it for seven years I never had a cargo problem. We relation to Tyson you all pesky rider. The this right here the only problem they really have is people to that he independent drivers that does not have nothing to live bill so car will clean up the barely alive Bill don't have the full liability under federal required in math. So driver's license I come in the United States we have to clean the mess the then we got a impound but if we don't hold a Congo we will get a conversation. Thank you Mr richer questions for the trilogy. Thank you for coming from like village to testify could talk a little long but only. We appreciate you. A Mister. What had calendar with the met the day and she did a good vote the. You can you can go back to what you the you you want to. A lot but a lot more interesting The Tonight Show I'm sure so. Mr Sigrid. Yes Sir Mr please identify yourself for the record and you're recognized for your treatment yes Sir. Mr chairman of the committee thank you very much for allowing me to come to not. The Tonight us that. My name is Steve good in I represent the Arkansas grocers and retail merchants association but also an independent grocer myself on to retail supermarkets. A small retailer I myself that owns two stores much of my product comes in from third party delivery sources this is a good bill Senator just feel you talked about the common ground that could not be reached earlier and that's exactly the reason unfortunately that this bill is a good bill because for me retailer I get caught up in it. that that product that cargo is mine once it leaves the warehouse it's coming to me and the calls that cargo was hailed then I'm on the hook for that cargo. And it doesn't get to my store you know because there's no common ground retailer suffer. you know toilet paper green beans things like that that would be an inconvenience but one loads of perishable meat produce frozen food dairy products are hailed then those products they expire because reefer units don't last you know they don't run forever. so that's again why this bill is a good bill. This cargo belongs to me not party trucking company that's the delivery of company and certainly not the towing company. Members of my association have been affected by this Walmart not getting goods other retailers not getting goods. You don't members I'd ask that you would remember the grocery shelves during code during the pandemic and truthfully as retailers we still not a hundred percent recovered from that. Were closed back to normal but we're not but if we miss entire shipments of groceries because they're being held hostage yeah we cannot afford to have that and so when these disputes or between two other individuals a trucking company and the towing company where unfortunately the innocent victim and that this bill would make us whole so that we get our product and I'd ask for a good vote tonight on House Bill fifteen sixty three any questions Senator board your first question. Thank you Mr chair so I'm listening to this testimony and I'm trying to understand something so one thing that keeps coming up is if it's a Tyson truck I get paid and I know you're not representing the towing industry but you're representing the the entity I want to ask me so is there something going on in the retailer industry where you're using. I don't know how say non name brand trucks it will. Well something is causing this problem and and I'm trying to get to where that were understand what it is Sir certainly I can't speak to all trucking companies you know but but many times in the grocery world we use third party carriers and so product is that the manufacturer for buying direct close or if it's at the wholesaler and we're getting our normal load we don't know who's bringing us that product you know certainly you know with the with bigger companies they probably know in contract I just contract to buy my groceries from our house or from the manufacturer if I mean if I'm getting a direct quote so we don't have any idea who's delivering the product to us. So are you having an increasing number of days I mean like if something changed like there are more licensed drivers with insurance policies are working I mean is that something. Yeah again I can't I don't know that the anything is changed I I I think probably industry you know as a whole is changes as it used to be you know the grocery industry has changed but I can't speak to why it's change I don't know that is any more or less if it's one truck it's one too many so you know if it's one truck that's the that the cargo sale so I I can't speak to you I apologize I don't know the answer to that thank you yes Sir. Search. I'm sorry Senator Murdock. Quick question yes Sir center right would you acts me to pass a bill that makes you whole believe someone else now well Sir Murdock unfortunately I think that you know again we're the innocent victim here and and if there has to be a if there has to be a lawsuit between the trucking company. And the tow company that's between those two entities I had nothing to do with that so since you didn't answer my question let me let me city editor way yes Sir so what if the tow company take this same perspective that you just took and say it I'm going to hold his cargo so that I get whole see some. Somebody has to care about everybody yes Sir under what you're saying is I don't give me my carpool and we know we cannot excuse me I can not and as a body I don't think we can pass anything to just take your you want that we care about the toll we care about you the retailers I love my retailers but this is about everybody involved so we have to we can't come to this table and I consider everybody. Yes Sir I understand your question I guess my my point is that we have not. It's just simply are cargo that belongs to us Monday would be no different and somebody you know it's taking something that didn't belong to them. For any rate so this is what I did yes Sir I've done yes Sir Senator boy just I think you hit on this when I come to find that there's a better method for me to receive my goods then I have to make sure that I chose that method so if it just to drop names because if Tyson or whomever if they make it work they get their cargo do you they pay the bills when there's a bill then what I'm going to do S. the retailer in this case is I'm going to somehow insure that I have a reputable trucking company this delivering my goods which may also be a little more. But it may save me in the media for quality now if I just go on the portal and find the cheapest man out there moving stuff. In the end is creating this type of situation that's the risk I took. So I think that we I think they're good players out here in all these areas as I'm hearing but we're not using them and maybe for financial reasons other reasons but I think now we're going to learn that we may need to engage and raise the level of performance everybody because we're not leave anybody out yes Sir well unfortunately Senator Murdock is is independent grocers we don't get to choose who delivers to us we don't make that choice the the the manufacturer the wholesaler is who contracts with the delivery person so again as the receiver of that goods I don't get a choice in the matter. I'm done but trust me if you retailers come together who met for the buyers are. And you have this type of problem if you come together as a group and say. I'm not getting my car on my my my product in satisfactory manner you need to change your trucking company that you use come up with a new list if you all come together that'll fix some of this problem yes. Thank you senator Chesterfield thank you have a thank you so much. And and I emphasize but I sympathize and empathize because I've never been a wholesale or what or grocers thank you yes ma'am but my concern is can you. Get your own cargo out. Well again you go to the you know who the company is it has your your cargo can you go to them directly and paid to get it out of storage so again with small independent companies like needs center Chesterfield that's not a. Normal business practice I'm not saying that I couldn but again that's typically a service that the manufacturer or the whole seller provides for us now they charges for I mean there's a freight rate to that I think but again for me being in Damascus and Clinton Arkansas to pick up the phone and start calling I I mean truthfully today I don't even know who the first trucking company I would call I mean you know there's many good reputable companies in Arkansas but but we don't you know we don't go through brokers or dealers we just rely on those manufacturers and wholesalers to get it to us I guess in this day and time of. I can click on somewhere and find out who these yes ma'am. It's easier to find out today what is of concern to me is how can I get your cargo do you want to spend impounded. Can I do that on my own can you do that on your own I'm seeing someone shaking his or her I don't I think that's the whole thing or cargo was filled once it's impounded and you know unless the manufacturer the trucking company the wholesaler works out a deal I'm the one that is still the person that did not get your stuff to you in a timely manner to recoup your losses there is got to be a way for you to do that without the towing company being her but the individual who is responsible for miss senator get it there in the first place doesn't seem to be the person that we're dealing with today yes ma'am we're dealing with the towing company when in actuality is the salary person they did a salaried job of delivering your stuff to you and get that person doesn't seem to be punished in this bill yes ma'am. I don't like the fact that you're being. God forgive me and the Committee being screwed yes ma'am because you're the little guy yes ma'am we we are going to get these folks are making all this money on the step of the. They're being harnessed by this legislation we gotta do something to make sure you're okay. And I suppose that that's what this is doing but it's also making sure that they're not okay. And I believe that the problem lies in the person that delivers the food they are to be able to they are being made to pay you. For the loss because it was on them. One on joint company what on you it was on the person that had a sorry sorry record of delivering stuff to you how do we punish them that's what I'm trying to find out what that is thirty you yes ma'am I'm not sure and I know the answer that Senator transfer I don't know if I know the answer either yes but I do believe that there are some folks out there that I'm bad actors they don't want to pay when they mess up thank you the person who suffers yes ma'am I do believe that so I I don't know if I'm right or wrong but you know that's how I feel about allowed this because I'm feeling that you do not have these people who are skipping step you don't care about the quality of the person that delivers the stuff to you. And then that person unhappy and nine and you're suffering and as a result we as citizens who depend upon you yes my suffering to that so that's. Would you somewhat agree that will ask questions about your question and there's an. Okay Senator Rice. Review this this might help because if it I think it's factual for everybody but. Refresh my memory one thing I do I I stressed any shippers you better send somebody responsible but I I've got program last week should been in a truck instruction been on the road. he couldn't care less if I got my stuff or not he got there two and a half hours late could give me a reason that he didn't even know he came in from their own direction. But. Is it true if you can answer somebody else can. A column consignees of the user correct term. However the Steph it in my. Legally I don't pay for it up front right we get hardly any time to ever do that right we get terms of benefit yes Sir but. The the consignee is the one that is responsible. For the value of that good in my correct there I can't speak to all circumstances but that's the way it is in our in our situation we need to leave wit when it shipped even though you don't have the if you hadn't taken possession year. I believe they told me under the law it's mine because I had one try to make the place at one time and I finally wrapped round with notice I finally got it so I don't know what it was in this any of these circumstances or not yes Sir but I think under the law and the FCC or whatever I think that's what ruling so that that may help somebody here I can't speak for everyone one but I can say that the company I buy my groceries from we actually get our invoice the night before our delivery the next day it's mine at that point time tables yeah yes Sir okay no I have some stuff taken out of my bank before I actually get it because yes and that's the other that's the other problem right now for for the members and I touched on a while ago the trucking is so short you can say I will reputable companies do you will get what you get well it be getting goods and you're looking to get there are certainly a trucking shortage you know and and especially covid and the pandemic made that worse and and it's not totally recovered you know we we used to have you know back in what I'll call the good old days we used to have the same driver every Tuesday every Thursday every Saturday or every ninety everyone's every Friday and and Senator Rice aye but we haven't seen the same driver at my grocery store probably this year you know and we're almost April so it is yes Sir is an issue yes after. Thank you Mr thank you Mr members committee thank you Mr good yes Sir yes ma'am. Next is Joe foster. All. Mr Paul foster from white hall. I did have good afternoon but I'll change that to get a. My name is Joel foster. I'd like to thank each and everyone of you all for your service to the your state. And your constituents. I'm in the public area I have a business there serve on our city council there been on city council twenty years had a long career in law enforcement. Our business has been there for approximately a been in this industry for thirty three years house bill fifteen speed fifteen sixty three thanks why are bility to hold the president street lane on cargo or freight. On companies nationwide not just Arkansas companies. Approximately ninety five percent of the accidents that I work. Are not trucking companies from Arkansas. The truck confirm their trucking companies from other states and countries California New York Illinois Mexico and Canada. I speak today for our industry. We have very little problem with the Arkansas based companies. It is only the ones that are just passing through our state. This bill shifts the burden of the clean up in cargo recovery for the rescue of the cargo to state and local governments agencies like Ardagh CD's in county road departments across the state. I work in a horrific accident last Thursday in a little town a little community college corner. The low come out the top of the trailer after the recovery the truck tractor in the huge farm tractor. Including the highway so traffic could finally. Getty. Rolan again. One of my supervisors I was approached from an R. dot away and ask when would we clean up the right of way. I said as soon as someone responds to may and say aye. How we're going to get paid House in the cargo is still there. There's nothing in this bill the central choir mints and parameters for third parties who come on our business properties and translocate is liable what equipment are they going to use crimes forks whose insurance truckers going to cover them workmen's comp this bill is a complaint there's a lot of unanswered questions I'm asking you you you ladies and gentleman to help Arkansas Arkansas trucking companies in Arkansas towing companies state agencies cities and counties across this state and vote no on this bill or send it back for amendments our industry is we'll work with representatives to come up with a bill that will work for both sides of this matter. The end it in get it to work pertains to Arkansas companies not nationwide companies thank you for your time it's been a long night thank you Mr foster Senator Rice you're recognized drown out totals of that you said something that struck a nerve. You're saying this will allow them to come on your and impoundment yard. To transfer goods. They will need to get their own. Hi hi Hester. Our work a deal with you to do it. If you wanted to go you're probably not going Blige. And you said whose workers comp going to cover an accident there. What correct I mean they. You're if you're saying this going Michael legal to come get their stuff. But as a. Business person you've got to be concerned about insurance somebody getting hurt on your property you're responsible for I had not thought about that thank you yes Sir my response here please yes Sir there there's a lot of unanswered questions in this bill a I hear us call pope truck drivers I haven't drove a tow truck in years I'm a business person we run a very large operation Anna this one accident I work we dispatched one point seven million and equipment to work that accident but who comes on our property whose equipment are they going to use it you allowed your normally not when you roll a truck up the loads are scattered all over the place these laws don't come up and they're ready to be picked up they have to be palletized shrink wrap loaded into a one of our traders were there be one of our drive answer one of our re referred with our forklifts in our personnel when I say we want to pick up our load up okay that that sounds good how you gonna do it there is a lot of unanswered questions in this bill and who's covering your papal are you going to send us our work on a deal for your workman's comp and the company and the people you hire and you know what I've been doing this thirty three years I have never had a complaint on Arkansas upon recovery never I've never had a cargo issue I worked for Tyson I work for all kinds of people like Mr Cochran testified there is we do not have issues like there. The people who are proposing this as his claim that it we just don't have those I've been in business a long time but there's a lot of answers like how they gonna do it I mean this sounds great but how they gonna do. It's not as simple as no Sir combined now signup and all no Sir I understand thank you very much. A center board of course you're recognized thank you so how many times would you say in the last year that your company has towed and recovered in nineteen. That all quite a few I mean I don't have the number right there but we do we do quite a bit and there's for. Four large rotation in our area that the rhetoric I was just referring to I'd go to counties are because they had no so we do quite a bit not shouldn't just alright but there's only for towing companies on a rotation so I probably work. Forty to fifty a year. Okay and okay thank you thank you so roughly what once a week average my we we stay busy I mean and all of our our companies were offering the competitors where we're from and we all get along and we all try to help each other okay any other questions for Mr. Thank you Sir for your thank you for your time. If Mister Greg Kirkpatrick. Next time also Mr Jason day you're going to be next so if you want to get in the on deck circle you be welcome do that I would cut the seconds all Mr chairman Kirk Patrick you're recognized please identify yourself for the record I'm I'm sorry for the speak for alternating. Members of the committee thank you Kevin procedure presented by these patients Greg Kirkpatrick I represent the Arkansas dealer association we have about two hundred fifty new car and heavy truck dealers That actually counts to about a hundred twenty five thousand new vehicles sold every year the story I was going to tell got preempted which was a good move because it must be a good story so senator Chesterfield I think the issue you raised and that's a good point. What do you do when the cargo is the personal items and what we're seeing more and more today or vehicles that are already sold I was talking to a dealer this morning that said about ninety percent of the vehicles on that car hauler I've already been purchased and are just waiting to be delivered that's House short supply is so the days of of a bunch of vehicles on the on the on the trailer is going to sit on the line are kind of gone in the case we have there is a truck that broke down transmission went out stow distance Toda yard the next forty five days were spent with every section of that every piece of that puzzle trying to get a customer's car off of that car hauler this came up because the customer was able to locate the vehicle because it was shown assigned to her I was a at a sixty five thousand dollar taco I don't know all the details at it sounds like there may be some folks in the room that do know those details a little bit better but the problem was. It wasn't as rosy as well the customer just realize there was a problem actually the customer blew up the dealer on Facebook went on seven on your side it became a very public events and finally again after forty five days they were able to get the vehicles off their I think from our side of it it's it's how do you get the product that somebody has bought that now is owned by customer it's not even at this point it's really not even that the dealers anymore now the customers wanting to know why can't I get my car and I think we're gonna see more and more that a supplies continue to be diminished so anything the committee can do and that that's why we jumped on to support the bill I'd be happy to answer any questions I do not know a lot about the towing site not do the best I can. Senator. Thank you and thank you for being here and for everybody's patience ready thank you Mister allow me to ask questions. The gentleman who preceded you raise an interesting question who will remove the property from the towing yard. And how will the towing company be held harmless. As they do that because all of them and not all cars are not going to be dry sure you know we have some to that it'd never that really are rex and stuff like that how do we deal with that particular issue. I think you have any ideas my thought would be I'm not sure this bill would create a problem it can't be resolved by. The talk about by the tow yard the tow company wherever that the truck is being stored having the person involved they could sign some sort of statement waiving any kind of risk I think they're they're processes that could be done but will they paid to get it off the R.. The payment I I know in this case the car all or the hauling company was willing to pay for it I mean that we're taught General Motors was the manufacturer General Motors set up the deal so all the these are big businesses that were more than willing to get get people that were very capable of of retrieving it and and I do think the mitigation of the risk is is not as something that couldn't be overcome and honestly if you're allowing people on the yard to get personal smaller items. Arguably there could still be risk there so there is clearly some precedent procedure in place to allow people on that yard. Thank you thank you senator any other questions for Mr. Thank you members thank you very much for your time. And Mr day you're gonna come up next one after him will be Mr Marvin chill. Children. Mr let me set up Mr Childress is going to pass so Mr gave Stevens you will be after this gem and this is Mr Bailey. Identify yourself ready Miller Jason day a. To or from a picture in Arkansas we have three locations in. And nine cents a Southwest Arkansas we cover about forty miles about thirty from a. Close to Prescott's Texarkana. one thing that hasn't been mentioned here tonight is that currently and the towing industry in Arkansas we already incur about twenty five to thirty percent loss due to working tractor accidents. Many. Twenty five to thirty percent of all the action is a record for years we never get paid for. If this bill passes that number will skyrocket to about seventy percent of losses. Towing companies in the state of Arkansas cannot stand that tumbles. Right now we go to accidents. Never knowing ever going to be paid for our service or not. Five percent of all these recovery invoices. Result in a dispute only five percent. So ninety five percent of the time everything is just fine. Very rarely do we have an Arkansas based company that has an accident. typically it it's a out of state company I recently just had an accident where it was a construction company out of Georgia traveling to Dallas and their trailer caught on fire I had a lot of Budweiser beer. It was a complete loss drug committee under insurance. We were. Senator outworked accident we work accident I had to personally see that the cargo was appropriately disposed of at the landfill and I currently have about fifteen thousand dollars and that. it's in its second year litigation and I have not heard anything. This bill is not going to protect Arkansas companies it's going to reward companies that don't have insurance. We would like to come to a compromise across the board with center representative eleven. To make sure that everybody is taking care of. That's all I. Thank you Sir for your testimony of the questions. Thank you Sir appreciate you governor protection thank you. Stephens. Following him will be Mr Charles Walker. Three five. Five five five. Including Stevens C. C. Jones trucking thank you for having me yes I'm here as a representative of the Arkansas trucking association I serve on the board ACT but I guess as much as anything I just want to share my concerns as as a consumer and my worries what this does to the supply chain. And the issues that we've dealt with last two and a half three years I feel this compounds the problems. the Bill yes ma'am. Yes I'm for the bill. Let's let's let finishes testimony he is a for with this yeah I'm for I'm sorry I thought we and again which that audience to understand we're running back and forth between speak for speak against till we turn out. Let's find no from no problem receipts or but I do feel that I am for the bill and I do feel that if this bill does not go through that it will affect the supply chain. Adversely Just examples of one would be car parks if the the trucks headed the General Motors plant and it's got. Brake shoes and they don't make delivery then General Motors plant shut down for five days seven days ten days yeah five hundred fifty people that are working. That's you know just an example and. That that's all any questions. Murdock what was your solution for that toying with not paid what is your solution to this I would you want to change but in a situation where the toll companies are not paid wishes solution for them. I'm not sure I know that answer. Other questions. Thank you Sir for the moment. Mister Walker to speak to. Against. And. Mister Greg Jones will put you on deck. I come like this on their stages of probably five minutes till. That's right I'm just anticipating Center Mister Walker thank you please identify yourself Charles Barker junior home with what motor toner coverage for city Arkansas family's been in business since nineteen thirty seven third generation or fourth generation is in training doing very well aw as is bill is written is very detrimental to the industry as all you've heard. We can't we can't allow this to go through is this I mean I'll I feel that we can find some common ground just like you've heard in previous testimony only five to eight percent of the time the loads are hailed for payment that's that's not much coming in our company we bend over backwards trying to help trucking companies to get their load out and I would like to speak to some of the comments that I've heard mentioned in here that I'd like to have clarified now so I've heard some people talk about pricing. Are some of our cities and counties regulated not consent pricey okay the state police every single year we have to turn in a new price list the list every possible service that we may render while on scene we give those process to the weather or repeat price from the year before or they've had increase due to inflation which we all know about that now all those prices from what I understand is also from the state police passed on to the donor cover board so you got to entities after the C. those process I'm not saying the approval but they have a chance to review okay now is far as a. Someone come in getting the load off offer tow yards. That's not a problem if they want us to transfer we can transfer that we have the equipment the man power transport get it on to another trailer I don't think that our insurance company is going to allow another entity to come on our property in transfer a load off of a trailer on to another one that's going to be a problem. Okay our. And as I mentioned before it this is so detrimental that if it passes as it is we will have to lay people law because I can tell you now. With the way it's written if we roll out to an accident if it's not blocking the interstate in if someone's not trapped in the truck we're going to drive away from if the Los bill Alan grant or we have to handle the load we can get paid for we we can't handle that loss we're taking twenty percent here already and not to ship vehicles or passenger vehicles along we clean up the road ways that you guys don't even know about. So this is this will be adding to that loss we can't we just can't stand. So. Thank you Mr property questions for Mister Barker. Thank you Sir for your testimony. And Great you're a. He's the last. And on deck is General Dustin McDaniel. Thank you are Mister chair I'm sorry monthly you're recognized thank you all right here legends Allen I can give you my stump speech today apparently Senator Rice if you had to endure what I said before I will I'll spare you that joy but what I want to do really is to address some of the points that were raised centre Murdock has repeatedly raised an excellent point an excellent point and I should say I'm here in favor of the bill. His point is what remedy exists for the tow operators. You know what. They have the same remedy that every business in the state of Arkansas already has. They just lose one little component which has been described as being five to maybe ten percent. What remedy do they have they can go to court. They can go go to court and sue the trucking company for the costs associated with the pick up where the the delivery that's what they do that's what businesses do all the time. If you think I'm making this up you can look in in last week a lawsuit was filed down in Malvern. For this very sort of scenario. Where the for I think it's a ninety thousand dollar claim involving a towing company out of not. So they have that remedy. This bill for closes the lien. What it doesn't leave them without a remedy they can do what businesses do all the time another question and I'm sorry that Senator Chesterfield is is not here because I wanted to address appointment will replace it for okay thank you. But but the this whole issue. Are we heard from testimony about how long these businesses have been in operation this issue didn't wasn't even an issue until when. Two thousand seven. This right to this lane to the the load on the trailer somehow the structure these towing operators were able to make a living for all these years up until two thousand seven without this lane. And in two thousand seven when that compromise when that changes made to exempt out the the personal items what happened at the same time this hasn't even been talked about at all that's when the towing companies were very artfully got into the bill the provisions that they now have a possessory laying. Not just to the tractor that's broken down. But to the trailer and the contents of the trailer. So it's just been well maybe sixteen years ago. That's as long as it's been in operation so it's it's not anything. R. I. C. I dare say they were able to survive in this business. For all those years up to two thousand seven how could that be that this is now if we cut that back in part to this bill how could it be that it would lead to their room one with all due respect I think not There was one other point raised about If the desk you go quickly okay well let me ask if there are any other questions about that but I I hope question Murdock does that answer does it a situation where your concerns. Okay. Well Senator Rice as a question yes Sir. Are you the lawyer that the gentleman that we were talking about the two records and and they got their truck. Gross written way yes Sir. You know why that to. There was theft charge either immediately are later. I can tell you I can't answer that I represent one of the parties to that litigation I can tell you what happened and what happened is that the driver was there he asked repeatedly to be able to remove the tractor since it was complete. The the he said I'm going to move my tractor this is it he asked who the truck the tow truck operator nonstate SP the ASP said he wasn't going to get involved that's what he said to them if you can believe that because your complaint made the A. S. B. I don't know the answer to that but what I can tell you Sir is that he asked. I'm sorry. Did of the asset because the tow truck operators brought one tow truck in not to remove the debris but to block the front of this tractor and another one right behind and then of course they charged for that for the reported to charge you for this tow trucks being placed there so he wanted to he tried and the witness who testified earlier Mr ever tried to reason with the folks on the scene but they said no. So I did he's physically hand over the keys. I don't believe he did that I think the keys were in the the ignition with the I can see that happen and and you know that type situation but they would not let him leave. And and I I I will leave that up I'll have some discussion between member okay thank you senator rice and I am. I'm sorry you missed the first part of his testimony center Chesterfield but you might wanna go back and watch the video he did answer some of your your your your questions are you give. Thank you senator rice he watched the whole House proceeding so I feel like the others. I think that was a compliment senator rights of. The I did have a question Mr Jones on this Sir He. The and I was gonna reiterate what you say and you tell me if I'm getting what you said correctly sure. Not entirely Senator but I think you would benefit from it but up Mr Jones spoke about in response to senator Murdock about that there is a remedy there is litigation he just did not necessarily of a lead in place that as provided you know in this part of the code but the for that lien was. In place or all available under the law that they were still lawsuits over this and the litigation was resolved one way or the other either by settlement or by judges that pretty welfare phrase would use that's that's exactly what happened in fact there one of the gentleman who testified I believe it was his company I was involved in litigation with this company way back when and back to what Senator Chesterfield mentioned on her earlier remarks about wanting to gain you know what about the reason why the proposal was done in two thousand seven about access to medicines will keep in mind there are medicines that get intercepted and stopped on the road now they may not be for the driver but there for third parties and if you were to have diabetes medicine intercept on the highway of what seconded to the people who are relying upon that I'm. Would you indulge me for one last point yes Is directly the point was raised that I think by Mister foster and may be wrong about what about if the trucking company then comes in with another unit to remove the the cargo what about that what if you heard that what folks that's no different from the current situation. The only difference is payment has been made for example of Mr Edwards runs a fine business down in south East Arkansas I'm familiar with it and I've been there when companies have come in and transload read the equipment. They got paid the liability is no difference. It should be no different it doesn't matter that they have to meet a come on the property to transload the only difference is in one the payments been made in France and in this instance the link doesn't exist so I doesn't cut you off on that Rhys Jones I get your point I think a committee does and it's an excellent point thank you for I thank you on any other questions thank you Sir for your testimony and German like Dale I guess you're up. A we have I'm sorry first. After. Okay if you will be after generalmente. Welcome neighbor thank you Mr chairman my senator Dustin McDaniel I'm an attorney for the foundation for responsible Tollette I'm here to speak against the bill you're recognized thank you first of all I want to start by offering my thanks and and admiration respect for representative Evans and Senator Hill great legislators who I admire greatly we just disagree on this one particular piece of legislation to the extent that I was invoked earlier on the two thousand seven bill it is true that that was my bill and it is true that we added a list of personal items for individual consumers and the thought being that the owner of the person the passenger seat might not be the owner of the car parked illegally or you know they're they're maybe all manner of reasons why. Rulebooks and prescription drugs and purses and wallets should be releasable but this is clearly regulating commercial activity in a much greater level so that's why which I'm still proud of two seven thousand and seven bill but I'm opposed I'm here to speak against this one all parties in a contract to ship cargo across state lines or you know in in the stream of commerce are covered by some kind of a contract everybody knows exactly what their risk is and what they're getting paid and how much they're going to what they're gonna do and what they're gonna get paid in it except for the person who gets called up to in the morning to come out and clean it up on the side of the road that person has no idea who owns the truck who owns the cargo who's responsible if they will get paid how they will get paid and so that's why the lien exists in the law there are liens presently for anybody who or what the three main players that that that help get cargo where it's going the trucking companies have a lien the warehouse companies Havoline and the towing company's Havoline it makes sense that if you're laying hands on somebody's car go to get it to where it's supposed to go keep it protected keep it insured keep it to securitized in some way then you need to be paid for it and if not he who owns it and is responsible for it you know should have to pay for multiple questions have been raised that I thank get answered by the concept of insurance I mean if something is delayed or destroyed or damaged in transit there is insurance to cover that for the party that is the most innocent party I think it's really important and I've had a I don't I've had a good conversation with with representive eleven the last couple of minutes and I I would like to speak first apologize to him that if any of the proposed amendments that have been floated and and transmitted didn't make it all the way to him I will do my very best to make up for that at any time. But it is important that you know that great efforts have been made to find a middle ground on the bill and at least a few of them seem to me to be very reasonable and if this committee chooses to not advance the bill I'll be deeply committed to trying to find anyone of them or combination thereof. If the if there is an abuse of of cargo lanes it really in our in our economy let's eliminate it for everybody you know if it's that bad of a thing that's being abused everywhere let's just eliminated for not just towing but trucking and warehouses alike four seven three oh seven four seven two oh nine we can strike through those and we'll fix that I don't know that that's a a reasonable answer because it just puts everybody greater jeopardy and not being paid but I you know with the if the problem is abuse and one minute no less time and I will give you about fifteen second I'll take fifteen seconds Immunity from liability would be an excellent option if if you're gonna have a tow truck come out to the side of the road and grabbed a truck and trailer and get it out out of the roadway but in lay hands on it in some way but if they're not gonna get paid they leave it there they shouldn't be sued if somebody comes along and and damages or steals it later on so all of these things are are fixable and we ask your your committees indulgence on stolen the bill in one way or another so that we can try to do so thank you Sir certainly I'll answer any questions if you have any any questions for chairman Daniel. Senator. Mr make Daniel you you mention the did you read this bill in two thousand was. Responsible for yes Sir good words. How is it even legal to put a lien on a piece of property that belongs to someone else who was not involved that they own and I have paid for. Well the answer is in third party the answer to that is that the legislature has tried to find equitable solutions to situations where there aren't easy answers and to the legislature very much wants someone to get out of bed and go pulled wreckage out of the road and clean it up and and transported and deal with it and you have to insure it and you have to put it behind to secure fenced area that has to be approved by the Arkansas state police the regulations are extensive so the legislature came to the conclusion will how are we going to. Extent and this wasn't in two thousand seven the possessory lien is existed for decades that was just an amendment in two thousand seven but how how are we going to extend some security to somebody who's not a party to the transaction and really is being called up to do work for someone that they have no idea who they are and the lien was the the the measure that was imposed its its constitutional I mean you know you take the risk when you put products out in the stream of commerce you know that there's a chance of an accident and if there is an accident somebody's gonna have to tow it and clean it and you're going to have to pay for it and you should work that in your contract on the front end with the shipper you know the insurance company or somebody that's why I lean is the is a is a lawful remedy that the most states allow. Would would you you did say what you feel like that the insurance was the proper way to handle this my correct on that. Well I believe that maybe there's nothing different issues I think that insurance is a way for a person who suffers a loss to not have to pay it themselves and they spread out the risk with other premium payers and whatnot and for the towing company they don't really care if you're paying it out of your back pocket or if you're paying it with an insurance policy they just want to be paid for what they have done but they have minimal ability to enforce either that the truck owner or its carrier pays if they give up their liens or because I don't really have any other security these not like to call you in the middle and I transmitted contract to gets executed they just have to go thanks yes Sir thank you. Any other questions. Thank you general thank you Mr chairman thank you members ms Newton. Leave your. This is our last. You're really batting clean up. I'm going to try okay please identify yourself for the record. Good evening and Shannon and I'm the president of the Arkansas trucking association and I am going to kind of skip over it the way that I would normally present due to time and just hit the things that I made notes about that I want to make sure fit into my three minutes three I would propose that this legislation is the compromised and if you knew the story about the conversations that happened in December they came to the table and said do not remove the possessory lien that was their deal raker we cannot deal with the member remove the possessory lien and so what we thought was a fair compromise is to allow them to keep the possessory lien on the truck and trailer and eliminate the things that we did not own from that transactions and so that's the position that I will take that does actual proposal I was shocked that the response to this proposal was what it has been since the bill has been introduced. I think that the policy as it is being applied today on favor or unfairly shifts the advantage to one party and that transaction if two people who are engaged in this service which one did not necessarily consent to I would also like to touch back to representative or senator Chesterfield comment about unscrupulous actors as though in every incident that the trucking company was a terrible provider because actually most accidents are not the fault of the commercial truck and if a four Wheeler drivers under the back of the trailer and remit is it remedies at an movable we're in the exact same position at no fault of our own and so this application apart doesn't take into consideration at all who's at fault the reality is there's been an incident in the vehicle in the trailer and contents are immobilized. All sorts of scenarios this happened a reputable carriers. Walmart uses. Thousands of providers Walmart's materials are in lots of trailers that don't say Walmart on the side of it and so just because when the tow truck operator shows up and says J. M. I was going on the side. That tow truck operator doesn't realize that your FedEx package in that trailer it's the TV that you pay for that you bought on Amazon that you expect to be delivered by Friday it is now in the back of a trailer in a lot sitting somewhere off I. thirty so there are real consumer impacts losses scenarios in which you don't get to choose the provider or loss scenarios in which the parties are not at fault and still subject to this application of law which I believe is just unfair leverage to one party and transaction. And I'm gonna leave it at that the only other thing I do the last comment was about the big messy clean ups and leaving them on the highway. And I think you made at the point are brought a question earlier about how does this policy change that Senator Murdock this policy is not going to change that scenario at all. No one is coming to get this this legislation is designed to keep commerce moving. Something that is an accident that spilled all over the highway is not commerce is going to be able to be continued for delivery so that Senator is going to play out exactly the same way and that tow operator and wrecker service is going to clean it up and they're going to issue a bill in there to be compensated or dealt with insurance the same way if this were to pass as it did before we're talking about addressing situations that are very narrow in scope the goods in the back are still available and desirable to the constantly that is paid for them and would like to receive them. Any questions from his new. Senator Mara. Or Senator Rice. Thank you miss new because your Position do you have any data how many impoundments in Arkansas there are year I have not heard that in any of the I have not I didn't I reached out to the state police but not with a lot of time in order to try to find out how many times and on consent tow list is used and I was not able to get that in time for this particular committee meeting but I don't know that that would necessarily translate to how many were impounded I can say that it might nor happens more often to four wheelers and as eighteen wheelers with the with the tow board of that and how many cars were in we're talking about the destruction commerce it is a disruption of commerce when you can get your goods but I'd I'd like to know what kind of volume that is in Arkansas and out all the the background tried to do then is I'm not heard that and thought you might know I say that that similar questions asked on the house committee side and maybe it was in caucus meeting that you know this policy applies a hundred percent of the time. Every time that a the non consent to a call is made that operator has the ability to exert this lame. Correct thank you. Any other questions. Mr thank you for that policy as for all of us being on no problem thank you for being stay around to the last minute is there any discussion of by the committee. I'm sorry. Almost forgot you over their representatives please come close to your bill. And then we'll have testimony and Senator Hill you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman thank you Committee per lot of. Billing testimony on both sides. In short the two parties to the tow service or the trucking company and the tow operator. Neither by law owns the cargo in transport therefore. The towing company should not have the authority to unreasonably restricted from being delivered. Mr Barker who I consider a new friend as I have. Working to try to help him with the bad situation that his company is in for city. I believe he made it a very accurate statement. When he said. If they want to come on our yard will translate that shipment over that trailer. That happens that's real. No one is asking to have a Quitman and people come on to a toll operators yard use their facilities user equipment use there and do that service. I've seen plenty of invoices were of C. trans loading I see storage I see handling I. see re stacking. What we're asking is for those rare instances I believe the gentleman from Lake Village he said that this is a rare situation. This one that shipment is intact it's not damaged it can be to safely transload from one trailer on to another we're asking that cargo to be released and allowed to move on down the road. In center field. Thank you representive eleven. I greatly appreciate what the the the tow tow truck drivers do they they have a dangerous job they put themselves out there at all hours day and night the do a federal job of trying to help keep our roads safe. But with the testimony that I've heard today I think this can be this issue can be settled in a different way I think they need to approach the insurance side of it. You interstate commerce laws to go across state lines as the trucks on an up and down the interstate forty interstate thirty all these roads we have. That right there is what we need to look at is the insurance side of it we've heard testimony that drivers were Lassen property or whatever with that has nothing to do with the cargo. That has to do with the the trucking company. Allowing someone to drive a truck illegally that's up to their deal to to figure that out has nothing to the cargo what we need to look at on this bill is the core of the innocent third party had nothing to do with the wreck they are being hung up out here they are the ones that have the money invested as we've heard testimony. Whenever it leaves that shipping yard someone's gonna pay part. If I do address the draft out of my account before it hits there is already pulled out of my account that has already been paid for it now is being held by someone else I'm sorry that's not right. There in as their money was taking out of their camp. Please do the right thing I appreciate a good vote that's proper time makes make a motion to pass. Okay. In discussion with the committee. Senator Rice. Thank you that we are the ram motion hardy and discussion between members I know it's the House does it more for some reason but early student and now I just will say this is a problem. I thank everybody here knows or problem I don't know what to fix this as I've said in in my personal business this could be advantageous to me. I don't do that much at this time. Right but it could happen. But I'm I'm there's something not right. The staff people the bill I haven't yet to hear. What kind of volume we're talking about the state of Arkansas. I think it should be critical discussion how much of this happens I realize if if if they drafted they do draft my account. It may fifty hundred thousand dollars or lower prices I don't give him that I'm going to be shook up to. But I don't know somebody stiffed. I also don't want. An operator to be use somebody. And if I'm back down here and I'm going to check more into some of this I want to know. Why somebody authorized. Somebody has to do something that sounds a lot saying it was but it sounds like it was an egregious act. Also don't know why that. Truck that was driven off with it was a local truck. Why they're driver didn't know they should have preferred total company there's just a lot of stuff here I don't know. I knew there was a bill in the legislature but until last Saturday no one had approached me. And I've done ever been a home work I can do this. And and it I don't have the answers I need yes. Thank you Senator Rice aye I wanted this comment that something tells me this subject we back before this committee perhaps we might think about doing something proactive like maybe having an interim study. Later in the year spend a little more time on it without the pressure of session ending and not just in for against your bill down one but that you know something tells me that this is not the last time we're going to be dealing with some facet of this so I appreciate the assistance of the input any other questions or any. You have a motion to senator hill yes Sir Clark Senator Clark I'm sorry. The. would echo Senator Rice the heard nothing or very little but the bill till recently and with all the things I've got going on it's been a long time study in this last two or three days. because it's important and there's of and there's two compelling stories the. and I hated that I had to be going for a big part of this debate I had a lot of tough questions for those involved of and didn't know which way would go some way to go based on. What I had. Earlier. But we've got to come back whatever we do. We've got to come back and address the problems on both sides of this and I don't care who wants to stand in our way we need to fix it this time. And of I know how will vote this time but up. However we vote it's still not going to be fixed for somebody and we need to get it fixed. Thank you and I believe your motion is in order senator hill thanks Sir. Motion to pass motion do pass by Senator Hill second by Senator board. I think we've had about the discussion we need. All in favor say aye I. Opposed hello. The ayes have it thank you all thank you to have hands roll roll call one half okay. This would occur please call the roll. Senator Linda Chesterfield. Senator Chesterfield votes now. Senator Jane English. Senator Jane English. Senator Terry Rice. Senator Terry Rice. Senator Ricky Hill center hill votes yes. Senator Reginald Murdock. Senator Murdock that's no. Senator Alan Clark. Senator Clark votes yes. Center Justin Boyd yes Senator boy that's yes. Yes. Sorry Sir your bill is failed. I wanna nass that we will have a meeting in the morning at eleven in room two oh seven I have one more bill I'm going to present someone turned the chair over to send for you Mr chairman thank you committee for night I thought for all of you for your I make a motion to adjourn we can see here that will mark the chair will not here in another couple of minutes. Do you have yes seven. It would as you know we're okay we need a motion yes we need a motion. She's got. So. Okay so we'll need a motion. Centreboard secure the chair now can I make a motion we had. So senator Senate bill. Senate bill five oh seven is not on the agenda of. I need a motion to hear the Bill someone. Okay I've got a motion I have a second. Chesterfield okay I got a motion second all in favor say aye hi any opposed hearing none proceed with your bill thank committed yourself and House premises will be very brief this is a simple bill it has to do with the kind of of high mounted stop lamp and if the vehicle in certain places it's it's safety to have a flashing lights and we need because of some other sections and in the law we need to have that specifically approved by the law I know the FNA has signed off on this the state police have signed off on this it's something you. I need to know about this issue. Okay it's but the we do need to get this done and so I want to get it on today's schedule so the house could have time to president will take up the House bills in the morning and are hopefully brief meeting at eleven so if I don't you don't have any questions I would to move so do pass I think can you describe this a little bit more for senate chess K.. It's like he's not gonna you're gonna. It's like a second story look let me if you read it. I'm I'm I will try to answer any questions but I need a question is a little more concise of how may I help yes ensure that. Me what I have I don't know anything about a flashing light. As amended stop lying stop I don't know anything about this okay I've never seen you've seen the ones that are in the rear window of the car when you hit your brake light you hit your break in that light in the window comes on. No go ahead well you have one on your car unless it's a real real car this would allow that hi Mandy stopped to to pulse and. Finding that I'm sorry. No ma'am but it go up in intensity to to call attention to a hazardous situation that's really all it does so are there any questions by the committee ninety over here I look what will happen is the state police or the other law enforcement officers feel about there's anyone here to discuss this under this system only all at once and they're they're neutral on is my understandings. There are a lot of access services has already adopted I've actually heard they're not neutral only assessing I'd like to hear. Well Monday might be too late. But tomorrow tomorrow we have hunting Morrow. Mr Gallagher says he has an email from the state police so I'd like to talk to the state police for so some I like them to be here to to discuss that can we have them here more. Okay. And then I will pull the bill down and we will bring it up at eleven in the morning at the meeting thank you Sir room two oh seven and the only sister vice chair you could turn this committee at this point if you'd like okay thank you everybody will meet at eleven in the morning thanks we're adjourned.