Education-House and Senate

Good morning members. Those in the audience that are here this morning researcher interested presaging being here as a joint Education Committee convenes to hear the proposed emergency rules governing the education freedom accounts of the learns Act just a little bit of housekeeping we will be listening to the presentation from the department of education after they have given their presentation at that time then we will take public testimony which will also include any questions that there may be from members of the Joint Committee but this time I would ask Mr roads sporty I would come to the table please. If you both identify yourself for the record and you may begin the presentation of your proposed rules good morning Courtney solace for chief of staff for the department of education. Good morning in the presence of chief legal counsel for the department. Miller said thank you chairman chair as members of the committee before any of the departments emergency rules to implement the education for him to come program be on August first as required back to thirty seven of twenty twenty three otherwise known as learns Act. These rules mirror the language contained learns Act more specifically section forty two. Education for an accounts for EFA's well I participating students and families. To cover private school tuition fees uniforms and other required expenses with state funding on a year by year basis. Your face will allocate up to ninety percent of the state's prior years person foundation funding for these expenses for the twenty twenty three twenty twenty four school year that is around sixty six hundred dollars implementation of the AFL program a staggered would soon eligibility limited to certain participating students for the first year and expanding thereafter. For the upcoming school year only the following students who reside in Arkansas are eligible. Those are students with this disability as defined by the individuals with disabilities Education Act otherwise known as the IT eight students were homeless or in house students in foster care since with a pattern on active military duty strobes if you would pull that might just a little bit closer please absolutely thank you thank god okay. Students who participate in the succeed scholarship program last year which covers many of the students have mentioned. Since and rolling and can kindergarten for the first time or students enrolled in an effort at school or school and look in need of level five intensive support last year. Parents and guardians of these children may apply until August first this will play after August first mail may still participate if funds are available and all other timely submitted applications have been processed these emergency rules only pertain to these eligible students on the participating institutions that seek to be enrolled in. So far we've had under thirty four hundred students students apply for the program of those about two thousand have been approved to participate. Every student has been improved utilizes all the funds allotted to their EFA's we can expect the fiscal impact to be just over thirty million dollars again those are estimates. Does not account for pending applications and there's a possibility that students may not utilize all the funding in EFA's by the end of the school year. The total capped for the program is forty six million dollars and these rules are set to become effective August first of twenty twenty three where available for questions. The questions from members. Senator Hammer you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman. I wanna make sure I'm on the same page we're talking about the We're talking about the money to fund the program for those that want to choose to opt into it to get their educational expenses reimbursed correct. That's correct they would have to apply for the program would have to work with them an application process once a vendor is been selected they can invoice you application. that bill would be paid but that again that's caused all through the system it's an opt in process okay and this program be more pointed legal clarification because I was in a meeting previously with some folks and I was under the impression based upon comments that were made that meeting that there could be no activity as far as rulemaking is concerned until either August first or until the lawsuit has been settled and that the department was prohibited from being able to do that it was I did I misunderstand that or was that accurate or could you clear that up please. So this point apartments again trying to prepare itself for August first being the FF effective date these rules would not become effective until then again were. Consistently taking the position that the order that was placed on a separate lawsuit that was only challenging a school district. was the clear Tory order and only applies to the to the Department and that school district as to the issues that would litigating not lawsuits and that is consistent with our council's position of the attorney general's office okay so there's no way shape form violates that by us even having this discussion day or the Department having worked on it prior to all that being settled soon for the look Senator sorry that the loss the reference that not have any injunction placed on the department you know just the declaratory or declaratory order that stated that the learns Act was effective August first period okay Mr chairman I got a couple questions logo you thank you. Thank you senator. Senator Chesterfield you're recognized for a question yes thank you so much and good morning how are ya if the child I'm I'm trying to find and I apologize for not having done a better job of reading the rules as you are suggesting what if the child is removed from the private school to which she has he and his parents have decided to send him or her. We're not gonna be able to put that back on the public school only. A. I understand your question correctly if a kid gets kicked out of a private school. The child could be re enrolled in a public school what does the money go. Well so the money allocated to that you have a program again if if for whatever reason there's a condition that was not matched by the private school or the parents that money goes back to the big fine right but you have a fund to be allocated for other students so the kid messes up the remainder of the money that was sent to that public to the private school go back to the public school. So the remainder of the money left a Ross goes back to the state and that you have a fine right so the end of it individual if any clients which are allocated for individual students then there is the big fun for the program. Right if the student is kicked out a private school under funds remaining in their individual if a cow those will roll into the Big Five for the program. Then be dispensed to the public school which now will have responsibility for the child if I can add Senator and once that student re enrolls in public school they would be added to the enrollment and attendance for that public schooling yes they would begin generating funding that funding comes from the public school fined not the if the if I find but yes the public school will be getting funding but we do know we don't we don't allocate money if I recall based on that that same year it's based on prior year prior year. So you're going to send the prior year funding to the public school as you would normally do. I'm I'm trying to understand this right correct so it would be the same as if a and new student enrolled in a public school district so if they moved from and then use for example been to Bryant if they move from the bed and school districts the Bryant school district in the middle of the year you're correct that Bryant would not receive any funding for that student until the following year the same would apply in this situation and new students entering they are immediately enrolled but the school district does not receive funding until the following year it is going to apply the same since we deal with prior year funding. As we're looking at the. Whatever the that that's the subpoenas for this as we are looking at prior year funding. If the child was in public school. And was counted as a part of the school population. The public school would still receive the same amount of money. And then you would add to that for the private school this six thousand plus dollars is that right do I have a right or an not exactly it because it's two different sciences Mr roads is trying to explain the I get the two different funds all right I'm I'm just trying I'm just trying to get to understand you yeah we are basing say fuller junior high schools enrollment. AT the amount of money that goes to folders predicated on the previous year. But if the child is there. Who was there the previous year we'll get a different set of funding to be able to go to. The private school correct but that would not interfere with the school district's prior year funding amount that's what I need to know thank you yes ma'am thank you so much and thank you for allowing me to work to an imac thank you Mr. Thank you senator Chesterfield members we're we'll take all questions of committee members first and then after that if you're non committee member you have questions we'll take those as well. Senator Hammer. Thank you Mr the accountability on the private schools if historically they developed a reputation of you know receiving students but then they they kicked out the discharge from what would see accountability to the private schools if you see a high turnover rate like that. So those private schools have to provide enrollment data to the department as a pertains to the if a program so the Department would be aware of how many students are kicking out and I would certainly lead to conversations about their eligibility for the program so again that if if there's something that's fraudulent there is a different process for that certainly there be an investigation and there are referrals bill tend to the attorney general's office the recall and that will be set up but as far as conversations between the schools the Department again for seeing numbers that don't quite add up we can have those conversations and will they be put under thanks such as academic distress or fiscal distress like the public schools be held to or as the same standard can be applied to the private schools that are rolling program Senate there and they're statutory authority to do that for public schools but not language is not apples to apples there and statute for private schools again there are steps that we can take as a department for accountability and within the program again and if they commit fraudulent activity or they're not act accredited institution they can be kicked off the program but that is not the same process for accountability is or is okay right thank you a couple quick questions what were the numbers you mentioned will go while ago I think you said I heard two thousand that approved or what was that number again please right so about thirty four hundred students have applied for the program so those are students and families about two thousand have been approved to participate in the program for the upcoming school year okay could we get a heat map that would show where the highest concentration or where are they are they pretty well just scattered all over state or you got you got you know hot areas where there. Primarily moving free of applicants from all over the state but we can certainly get you that information okay and then one last sale page sixteen just want to clarify something thanks on page sixteen. So actually page thirteen of the exhibit be we've got it subsection eleven hundred program evaluation. Is it is section eleven. Point oh oh program evaluation. The. This is not for students who have a disability this is for all students is that correct. So the rules to build an exception for end of it the students are exempted from certain testing on the there can be alternative testing provided to the students but these are program evaluations spread across I mean it's broadly across all students that are participating in the program so that means that the tests that are being referenced by this section or your I say to use any type of test the has a bell curve and it's based on a percentile score so again that there are exceptions provided for in the for students with disabilities and but maybe the you know the parents don't feel that this is in an accurate assessment of of their progress but again these are expectations for all students on lesser time to okay and and we're says nationally norm referenced tests that would limit us from being able to do anything that is a state we might develop as our own standard or do we have still have that latitude to be individuals a state without because way it's worded implies it's got to be a nationally accepted test so we precluded from doing anything individually as a state not mean they're still latitude provided is just again the the initial expectation on the weather that is word and that's consistent with Other places outside of the State of Arkansas those are again your recipes your I. Q. to us was or nationally norm referenced tests recognized elsewhere that's what it's referencing. Thank you senator Hammer if I can add and even though we do intend on developing and are in the process of developing our own state assessment we do nationally norm referenced it that basically just means that we use the results and categorize them against how students are performing in other states and so it does not preclude us okay that's was asked I thought or something under way and I just wanna make sure we are gonna be boxed out NO one people are looking at every. Your job until the same to take this to court thank you thank you Sir. Representative make merry recognized for questions thank you Mr of other couple questions on page eight. The the seven oh one three the one on the fingerprinting. Of this I don't have to comply to my of twenty four so. Would be give me your year of not knowing the background checks for some representative they're still performing background checks is that the fingerprinting question given some latitude because that is my understanding a lot of private schools haven't gone through the full fingerprinting process up to this point and so it's giving them some time to adjust and you know I've as an attorney in fact the fingerprint myself to get my license and that can be at a burdensome process in terms of paperwork so again that they're still going to be licensed you know teachers are going back or under going back on background checks and I can be around children I think that's what you're worried about but they're given some latitude as to that paperwork portion of that background check which is the fingerprinting. But I mean I'm sure going to be a concern with with parents with thank you go on a world of. There was uh all also. seven oh one three C.. About the risk of a program funds. what will of what kind of financial risk we're talking about and and who would determine. If there is one so let's say that there is an individual that has been found guilty of fraudulent use of and I'm some fines or fraud generally speaking not be the type of person that is referencing. Staff that individual has mismanaged funds elsewhere that then again the expectation is that they not be allowed to misuse if a funds and the program. and I guess the other one I've got I've got some other that the seven oh one three D. the private school teachers of. Does it not does not have to be licensed I just have to. That's specific reference talking about them having a bachelor's degree that would give them the skill set to teaches a particular subject or have the experience that would be. A qualified to that degree okay. Yes thank you thank you it's a little hard when we want to get the Friday night to look and so thank you representative. Senator Dotson you're recognized for questions thank you Mr chair With regards to seven point zero zero participating schools and service providers. As I'm reading through this it looks as if it. Someone could become a private school I guess I'm trying to figure out if someone between now and August first or the first to school August fifteenth or whatever could someone go through the process and create a school or are there. As I was understanding it. Pretty much already currently private schools would be the only ones in this first year that would probably be eligible for the program you might miss reading this or is there a list of schools that we've already kind of got Hey these are the ones that are are approved for this year one implementation so they're about eighty three schools of applied amount approved so far I think there are a handful of others pending I think to answer questions about your senate correctly that is for existing coal schools I mean I guess it. In theory if there is enough time maybe there could be a school that could be created and undergo all of the requirements under the rules they could theoretically speaking set up a bond with the Department but again I it is. Obviously it can be done in operation for one year right that's under seven dot zero one that's right again the and as for existing schools like that there are some additional there is some additional language for schools that maybe or undergoing accreditation and are taking strides in doing that but again that's that's primarily for schools or even create a theoretically if someone was bonded because that that seven dot zero dot seven dot zero one dot two. Has an order in there so it could be any one of those three criteria under there that's what I'm referencing is a service some latitude on and in that the language is broad enough to allow for a number of scenarios but again it's but what we've seen as again in schools that have already been created and kind of an operation earlier more okay thank you and and also would be possible to get I don't know is that on your website the list of approved schools for people to be able to go out that have accounts from center has been posted on the website will get that information for you okay thank you. Representative McKenzie you're recognized for questions thank you Mr so I just want to go back to some of the comments you made about the applicant pool thus far so Senator Hendren hammered a good job of fitting on this but that thirty four hundred applications of students for FAA so far correct right into thousand approved so far kind of on a rolling basis that's right great the remind me but if I remember correctly from the the actual bill we have a cap of one point five percent of the population so what's that number roughly that can apply and successfully be granted if any or one. I believe it is approximately seven thousand I'm looking for had not. The. Around six or seven thousand I can get you that exact number but not entirely that's fine as we make sure the five remember correctly winded the application startup process start for students to begin applying for the FF I remember correctly was June twenty minutes right June twenty. So we've less than a month that we've already had thirty five hundred thirty four hundred applicants that's correct once during the period of the T. R. O. we did have to stop accepting applications but then once that T. R. O. was lifted we were able to resume and so yes and in less than a month we've received that many wonderful what what if any mechanisms levers what are you doing to get the word out about the application process for you affects. so we have information posted on our website but promotion has been primarily through third parties independent organizations or the private schools themselves that have chosen to advertise that information we did send out information to the public school's letting them know the process but again we've only posted on our website. To know the moneys have been committed for marketing material not at all this is for lack of a better is word of mouth we're seeing this amount with less than a month just from word of mouth yes Sir okay and then back in reference to representing there's questions about background check I had the same kind of question regarding the fingerprinting but. With some of this background checking already standard practice in public schools either within school districts not only for my from fingerprinting I know that's a nuance but financial fraud Criminal background history is that are those things that were that school districts or the department itself is already having process to weed out bad actors are folks who should be in the classroom. Yes there are safety measures an existing law to account for public schools Friday thank you. Senator English you're recognized thank you so would you go back over the of the so the licensure in the. They might have a bachelor's degree but they don't have to have a license. And what is the what could be of equal experience. So the language the authorizing language is broad enough to account for different life experiences something that I thank. So I meant that there are licensure pathways we can correct me if I'm wrong for individuals with associates degrees that have a commensurate level of experience teaching elsewhere in public schools so I mean at at think it's accounting for a different number of pathways to to licensure and teaching that are currently available to public school teachers not simply those in private settings so basically having the same requirements we have to teach in a public school. Very similar Senator and yes it would be much alike a student I was using a teacher teaching under an act twelve forty waiver where if they have a bachelor's degree and perhaps of worked in a certain field they can then teach that subject matter. Thank you. Representative long you're recognized for questions. Thank you Mr Speaker I had two questions if I may of the first with some any idea when the. If a funding rules will be put out regarding home schoolers and microscope. So home schoolers I believe are in group two and that would be for that not this upcoming school year by the year after that so twenty twenty four twenty twenty five we'll be working on the rules between now and then what about my crystal. I thank I thank likewise since group to write. Yes that will be covered in and the permanent we just needed to get these rules in place hence emergency process and so that we can start your wine we are state board has already approved on Thursday a draft of the permanent rules those will go out for public comment and and we will be working on adding things that we might have missed or that things that people bring to our attention to make sure that we account for all those and so we hope to have those fully promulgated and in place before year two starts. Follow up question. Question in whole or in this one I received a text from a it was reported from a from a private school they just wanted clarification in the course of this is my understanding we passed the law but they wanted to hear from you all if they do not accept learns Act money there regulation will not change is that correct. Thank you Lou giving out legal advice and that independent school as far as if a program is concerned if they're not participating in the FAA program none of the regulations that we're discussing today would apply to. There's motion thank you very much thank you senator. Senator Chesterfield were back to you well thank you so much Mister chair Mister chair and let me go back to the section seven oh one dash three C. three D. scan of the private schools only employs or contracts teachers who hold at least baccalaureate degrees I have the privilege documented experience as determined by the department could you clarify what equaling documented experience means if it does not mean that you have to have a minimum of an hour back a baccalaureate degree. Because in public schools I don't think you can walk into a public school and have an equivalent. You have to have a bachelor's degree at least so tell me what that equivalent would look like Sir guy I think this is part of the question we answer Chris Welch I know that I didn't get clarity that's right. So again at six at it again he said they would have experience but most of our schools require a baccalaureate degree there are like there are licensure pathways for teachers that are not fully licensed and they can teach up to three years while other pursuing licensure I understand that they start with a bachelor's degree not always there are teachers that concert with an associates degree. Where those. I know that we have carefully sectionals that have associate degrees but I never heard a classroom teacher not having at least a baccalaureate degree there are many different pathways that senator and I apologize I can't speak fully intelligently about all of the different ones that we have ones where someone who's still in school in their fourth year can get an emergency teaching permit and so they have not yet obtained a bachelor's degree but they are using that fourth year as on the job training or practice and experience and so they would be much like in this case you know overseen by an a senior teacher lead teacher again there are instances when at twelve forty waiver where you do not have to have a bachelor's degree because you are exempt from the licensure requirements. These are all the same options that are available to publish this ledger can read because we're putting folks and they don't even have a bachelor's degree. I think that's an entirely different and conversation but and again we are giving these private schools the same flexibility that we are to public schools for times when they cannot find someone to fill those positions as you know many school districts are having a really hard time private schools are having similar situations and so if they feel that they can best meet their students needs with with a teacher who does not have a bachelor's degree and parents know of that and they're still choosing to admit their child into that private school then we wanted to afford them that same flexibility would you send me those two. Thank you referred to twelve some some and some some else yes senator but you said that to me because I never heard of it I thought we were going to each trying keys at least at first I can understand for the year I think we need greater clarity because I can have a high school diploma and have a great deal of experience so you're saying with this if I have a high school diploma and have been working teaching somewhere for five six years I've got equivalent experience is that what you're telling me. So that is again I this is more of a case by case basis and and there are processes for this is not just a blanket approval for anybody that wants to teach without a be a floor I'm trying to find out what the educational floor ease if you're saying it's an associate degree is it's are you saying it has to be five ten years of experience what is the floor so that our kids are at least getting a minimum a minimally qualified teacher in a classroom okay and what were happy to provide that information I would certainly appreciate it up also it says that it deals with the school district losing accreditation or school private school used losing accreditation or an individual school has engaged in fraud. Then they can of course appeal and appeal your decision. But if the decision is appealed what happens to the kids. Because I didn't see that as I was reading I heard what happens to the school I just need to know what happens to the kids should they be in a school district or fraud is is prevalent guide for the or the schools that are correct loses its credit ation what then happens to the child or they wait around of for the appeal I mean when do kids become first and is compensated earns can withdraw their kids for a private institution at any point animal and public school. That that options available to them at any point in time during the program so that's that's not what my question is. What a windows the state department of education side. You have committed fraud. You have lost your accreditation this is what we're going to do not what the parent is going to do the leasing department of education excuse me desi Department elementary secondary education of when do you say. Kids are going to go back to where they were one when do you take that action we would reach out to parents and let them know they have the option of transferring to another private school if they can find space or they can re enroll in the public school we want to make sure that they have and know that they have that option of going any other school that they choose okay in about when would that be within thirty days of notice or immediately upon our notice that the school and no longer current all right thank you that is so helpful thank you Mr. Senator Rapert you're recognized. Sorry about that thank you Mr and looking at this section five oh to talk about written explanation for qualified expenditures for EFA funds as outlined in the learns Act under six eighteen twenty five oh three. Can you tell me if that is the Department going to put caps on these expenditures so for school says a certain technologies required. And the reason for commercial price would be a thousand dollars but they're asking the students spent three thousand for that same device or we are as a department but caps on those or just say you you can buy a laptop. So and and again this that were transferring a prophetical The authorized expenses are again tuition. Uniforms there are required expenses and there is a catch all for the again those are expenses that assuming that they haven't already met. The threshold already set in their EFA's sentence but there's been an allocation of a fourth of the the four sixty six hundred dollars right there is money left over after that. If they are limited by the funds available on the record right so if they try to overdraft account. It's not gonna work because they have to submit an invoice within the application so there is a built in mechanism to limit the cost of those required expenses because limited by the amount. Then the actually if an account was answer questions it is also trying to build to the understanding and six oh two that says that they can pull if they funds. At six oh two says. If the account holder is bound to have substantially misspent EFA funds this section is the question being is how do we determine what substantially misspent means for those that are maybe being bad actors again I think that's probably gonna be on a case by case basis and trying to determine the actual situations that arise that's hard to. To anticipate. Something that nebulous I think will work through that and again there's there's going to be due process involved in all this parents will have an opportunity to express why that was unnecessary expense and the same due process that we're a lot into the schools themselves of their being pulled from the program would be given to the to the families and students as well thank you thank you president Senator. Representative back you're recognized thank you Mr Speaker this is probably more of a request for information as usual when I get up. As opposed to question but are you guys I'm sure collecting applications I mean information on the applications and then the two thousand and I've already been process and says like you guys are doing a good job. Certainly speedy job so. I would like to know if you have information related to who is receiving these who's applying who's receiving and how the demographics type look that what were they going what type of schools are going to and that that type of deal that I think that would be interesting information for the could actually for the committee that so if you want to Senator the to the chairman Alan certainly appreciate that thank you get that staff I think that be very good to see. Based upon the criteria of first year and the number of students. That number of students who applied which category or are they falling under so we can get a better idea of what what needs of students were actually serving through this process. Representative Vaught you're recognized thank you Mr chair and I know that we set up committees to to promulgate these rules and work on these rules can you tell me how many how many people were on this committee and if there were any soups that were on this committee just because I know it affects their budget if I go back to some of the questions prior someone leaving a school going to and then I have as a follow up question for you also whenever you answer that one out I'll give it to you so these are emergency rule simply have something in place by the beginning of the school year we've already started that the groups that you're mentioning they are primarily helping with the permanent rules that will be working on over the course of this year again we've ran the that a draft by the state board of education if a program for public comment and so those groups will be working along side the public comment process to try to address some of the concerns that we make it from the public These rules were again the basics calls and to set up the process the program for the upcoming school year. Representative I was trying to find it we have all that information posted on our website I can't pull it up fast enough but and we can get that for you and share to you and we try to make sure that every committee had at least eight to ten people and that there was a very broad representation from administration to teachers to parents to private individuals but we can get that for you and wanted to speak back to representative back we we can provide you all that information as well but we have full dashboards that will be showing all of the demographic information that will be posted on our website after August first as well so we want to make sure that everyone public included has all of this information available to them. Can I have a follow up Sir thank you so I want to go back to something else that you touch just a second ago also you're talking about a student leaving a private school maybe transferring to a public school and now we're talking funding but I want to talk about students who leave private schools to go to a public school that can't get their paperwork back from the public school I think from the private school to take to the public school and I'm having some issues with that in my district or a private school doesn't want to let go of the paperwork to let that child transferred back to a public school well we have something in rules that would please designate that they have to that should be that parents property not the school's property. Is there a way for us to address that because I've had five or six parents had big issues with this getting the actual paperwork to transfer on back to a public school back certainly be addressed several making whether it's in the permanent rules themselves reciprocal that we could also okay thank goodness because thank you senator thank you Mr. Senator Hammer you're recognized thank you Mr hit a couple spots on the audits reading the audit that your I think it's on page ten. We are we set up to start the auditing. Now or when's it going to be ready to go. So the auditing will service this year it's my understanding right yes we. Sorry and yes we're in the process of identifying the appropriate person again because the delay with the lawsuit and we can't enter into any contracts and so it's not ready to go it won't be ready to go until August first but we will be ready this year okay and. So based on the number of students that you have coming in the minimum requirements for what authority what the auditing policies can require how many people are going to have to have. I'm not entirely sure on that but we can get that information for you all right you guys got that in your budget right. Yes Sir okay and then if somebody is found to have violated anything you get your private public should private school is taking money but then you'll have individuals the recourse against a private individual be civil action or criminal action or is that been determined yet it could be either depending on the amount and the the nature and how they misspent but that would be something we would refer and to audit and to the attorney general's office or prosecuting attorney depending on the level inspector general for them to make that determination okay and on page six regarding twenty one year olds Help me understand how that'll play out if you got somebody that's you know pushing up against twenty one of which right now public schools have to keep somebody twelve twenty one right so. The the reimbursement at what I will try my mind round is just somebody who maybe has a nineteen twenty year old that they're still trying to get you know through get their high school education the portal of resources and they're only gonna be limited to the total amount that's available six six hundred I'm just wondering if that you know the accountability to know that that person is just keep that kid on the payroll to the hit twenty one and then letting go what's the what's the safety net there. So the twenty one year old will be allowed to finish the school year and that would be so again that there's a from cut off after the school year and remaining in the program. So they be allowed to stay in the program as long as. This larger shown some level of proficiency in advancing it's just taken maybe two years to get through the twelfth grade course curriculum but they're only going to get the sixty six hundred dollars or whatever it is right correct and of their unspent funds at the end of the year within that you have an account those are given back to the FAA Fund okay and then last questions on our page nine is seven point oh five. And I just. Just which term the Terminologia to speak my mind or a participating schools and service providers shall not refund who is the service provider so those are reason sorry guys. This will be the private schools to private schools correct okay the the point is that parents themselves not hold the money right so that the system is built so that the invoice costs those costs are covered by the FAA fines but that the parents never actually hold the money it's effectively held in escrow through third serves third party provider which would be whatever it is going to run the program but again it's it's communications between the private school not company. Individuals on and students in that company and back to the private school so how long would a private school have in the event of a parent is get the money but not turn around and give it to the school that the school would then have the recourse to be able to discharge a student because of non payment. The parent again will never receive the five as go to school a right it's a rat once the parent applies and designates the appropriate school the public the private school invoices the system and the system distributes quarterly payments and so they have to immediately notify us as is the parent if that student ceases to enroll if by chance there was a short time period of overlap they would be required to respond the funds back to the state. The problem at the private school pressure okay thank you. Representative Vaught you're recognized thank you Mr chair so all I see in here is rules for private school so what about home school we did not receive monies this time and if they do then why are they not a part of this emergency rule so home schools are not in Group One so learns provided that you're one so twenty twenty three twenty twenty four as the groups that I mentioned in the beginning of the presentation group two will be home schoolers children enrolled in schools they're listed either D. or after than L. also have children of veteran families or law enforcement families so there are additional populations will be covered in group two and home let I mean and a home school kids will be included in that group so that's why they're not part of the emergency rules this will only be in place for a hundred twenty days after that after approved by the you know by subcommittee and so again will be working on permanent rules and at some point those will reflect the home school population shall be covered and twenty twenty four twenty twenty five school year. Thank you may I have a follow up please make. Can I talk about testing for just a second because I know that's all Something that's been a big public controversy all part of of learns is this testing of peas So public schools are not allowed to live and read something to their child they can't help in any kind of way at all well those same rules apply to kids that are in a private school and or yes home schooled children also. So the short answer is yes it it's dependent upon the test or assessment that they choose to give there will be a list of approved assessments and whatever the requirements and restrictions of that assessment are or what the private schools will have to follow and the only exceptions will be again in the case of students with disabilities many of them do have accommodations where they can be read aloud to certain sections the same rules apply. And your say and so follow up I'm so sorry Mr go ahead so you're saying that public schools can do that for their children that are also have needs if a student with a disability has an I EP that provides for testing accommodations they then yes the public school has to provide those accommodations but for instance read aloud is only allowed on certain sections of an assessment okay and then one more follow up and I promise to let us to get off and I know that public schools have to take bears which I disagree with highly on the computer. They can't like have it in a paper form for a child who might need it in the paper form they've got to scroll up scroll down when they're reading well this same type of test B. for private schools where they have to do everything computerized. So I think that would depend on the assessment and we can get you additional information but my understanding is that there again are allowable exceptions for students with disabilities if they need a paper test that is an allowable but it has to be an allowable accommodation pursuant to that assessment. Thank you Mr chair. Okay members the board is clear of committee members and so I'm gonna go to non committee members at this time committee members if you come up with a question that you'd like to ask based off something else it's ask or thought that comes to you just going to be up I'll get you back in the queue in order that you key in we're gonna go referred to the representative Springer you're recognized. Thank you Mr good morning. I've been sitting here listening to this discussion thus far and I want to follow up on questions that were asked by Senator Hammer and I think. We've relating to a program evaluation on page thirteen. And I I'm as I understand to indicated that these are emergency rules and they're not permit rules and I guess what of my first question is is that the department is going to administer a survey to the account holders. Who are the account holders is that the parent or the actual student account holders are the parents of the parents guardians or anybody acting in loco parentis so anybody who is in charge of the individual student okay the account follow up Mr sure so what about the students usually when you do an evaluation I'm very familiar with program evaluations there's qualitative and quantitative data and usually you gets of responses from students that all of the Paris what students as well so is that something that you plan to have a discussion about in these groups that are going to formalize the permit rules. that's something we can look for to and the permanent rules I think what you're referencing in this section is the feedback from those individuals that are managing the FAA accounts on their interactions with the third party provider and the provider school and how the system's working in terms of getting invoices paid okay so this doesn't relate anything into the instruction or the what's going to be taking place in the classrooms with the ask also is there going to be a part of that in the in order to determine whether or not this particular program is working it seems to me that you would need to have sometime evaluation with the providers of the services being rendered to the student so is that going to be a part of this process but some something we can certainly look I can't hear you that's certainly something we can look to the permanent rules again I think the testing that we've mentioned as part of the objective data that we can have to see whether the programs work hi this is chetna dimension to test one less follower question so would respect to the test and I have a question with this so you're only going to give one to this and then based upon that one test and you determine whether or not what's taking place by the provider is going to be effective or not is that what I'm hearing now so is there anything else that you will use as a measurement for a but not this program is effective other than this one test that you're going to get. I mean that's something for the. The rule makers to consider going to give a one of these tests and then based upon the score this made on the test you will determine whether or not the program is effective so these are some of the questions that I have with respect to the whole process here and the rules that you have for especially when it comes down to evaluation and determine whether or not this program is going to be effective so those some things that come to my mom thank you Mr. They represent Springer will go representative ray. Thank you Mr chairman over here on the corner this is not about the emergency rules per se but I want to follow up on something that to be mentioned earlier when you said there'd been thirty four hundred applicants and two thousand and approved my questions about the fourteen hundred. delta between those two numbers with the fourteen hundred that have not been approved is that because these are folks who applied and were not in your ones categories of eligibility or these people that made technical errors on their application or can you describe the reason for the fourteen hundred applications that haven't been approved so some of those numbers and I don't have the specific number are individuals that I've played recently like in the past few days and just haven't been process some of those are definitely applications that were missing documentation or had that the department had some questions that maybe. Warren addressed within the application and so the and the the department's working very efficiently and getting them processed or that is just catching up to the demand and understanding that we get applications over. Or if I matter presented yes saying that those fourteen hundred have not been approved does not mean that that means fourteen hundred have been not denied correct but once we complete our application review process we will be collecting data to determine again what what is that reason are they just applying before their eligible and perhaps they applied for a private school that has not approve applied to be part of the program there's been many reasons. Gosh it thank you so much for that clarification. Representative Barker you're recognized. All represented Barker switched seats with me. Represented by a wizard Hey I apologize if it by overlook this but in the testing of the students and the private schools with just the students who have come in on vouchers be tested over the entire campus to be tested. So the only requirement is for the students who are receiving the AFA account funds many private schools do choose to test their entire student population but we only have oversight of those receiving funds. But I can't see represented by that that take care of your question yes thank you. Representative when you're recognized I have a motion sir. Thank you your motion I move that we recommend review and approval of these proposed rules. We have a house motion for the recommendation of the review and the approval of the House rule. There's no one second needed for the house. Any discussion on the motion. Seeing none all those in favor the House motion say aye hi those may motion carries on the motion from the Senate. There's no further questions representative dot R. six unicenter Dotson you're recognized. When I'm moved that we do the same as the House recommend approval. Review and approval whatever the wording was we have a motion from senator Dotson for the recommended review and approval the roll this recommendation will go to the A. L. C. executive subcommittee at noon on Thursday Senator Chesterfield you have a second. Do I have a second on the motion I have a second on the motion a discussion on Senate for the motion yes I second center Chesterfield you're recognized thank you I don't have a. Particular problem list. With most of this. I am still concerned about the floor as far as teacher eligibility is concerned. that's not enough for me to vote against a you have to have some rules you've got the lawn place I'm I'm fine with that too you know I've come to be fine with that anyway but I am very much concerned about that rule without having a floor of accountability for those we teach our children. And I would ask that you look at these rules even though they're temporary that you would look at them again and say we will require the minimum of this instead of to me it just seems Willie Miller this state or equivalent experience it's just not good enough. I think our kids deserve better that is my comment thank you Mr. Thank you senator Chesterfield center stone you're recognized for comment yes I know you're going to gather some information for us senator Chesterfield but could you also send that out to the rest committee member to please. Yes Sir will do will get all of all questions will be summarized anything that was not answered we have a running list of those will compare those with them get that back have the sent out by staff all members of the committee. I have a motion and second on Senate for you the recommendation of the review. The rules all those in favor say aye opposed nay ocean carries. See no other business for this committee we stand adjourned thank you for being here today.