House Education Committee
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Bills discussed (1)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
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HB1254
· 3 mentions in transcript, chapter
Matched: “not be presented, and that is Representative Webb, House Bill 1254. And, committee, you'll find that copy of that in your fold…”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
0:00
All right, this morning on the agenda, we have one bill that I know of that will
not be presented, and that is Representative Webb, House Bill 1254. And, committee, you'll find that copy of that in your folder there. And, Ms. Webb, you identify yourself with the record, and
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
0:28
then you may proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chair, members. Here's Representative Kathy Webb, and this is House Bill 1254, and this bill deals with
using degrees from unaccredited institutions and also with institutions that need to be accredited and certified. And I've got a couple of folks here today who want to testify on this bill very briefly, but I want to make a couple of comments before we do that and before I take any questions. A constituent brought this issue to my attention last year, and it was in sort of a frivolous manner in which the constituent brought it to my attention, because it was about a dog
that got a doctorate. And I thought, though, that it merited doing a little research on, and so I asked the folks at the Bureau to do some research and found out that actually it wasn't something that was frivolous, and it was something that a lot of other states have already dealt with. And as we started to do the research, I also found that in some of our neighboring states, most particularly Texas and Missouri, they already had some pretty strict laws that deal
with this kind of issue. And in Tennessee and Louisiana and Alabama and Georgia, they're also tackling this issue in passing laws, and I only talk about the states that are surrounding us, but the one state I also want to mention is Oregon, which is a model state. So there are, as you read this bill, a few of the questions I got were what about Bible colleges, what about certain other kinds of institutions, and in Arkansas Code on page
Stage 2, there says exempt from certification, section 6, 61, 301, and that gives you a list of all of those entities that are exempt and would not be covered in this bill. When you go a little bit further, you can see some language that actually the Department of Higher Ed wanted to add, and some of the folks who are on this committee and who are not on this committee but are members of the legislature who work in higher ed had asked me originally to put that in, and then the Department added this.
So I think that this is a consumer protection bill, and I think it is a bill which also protects our educational institutions in Arkansas. And as I mentioned, I've got some folks, if you have technical questions from the Department of Higher Ed, who can answer the amendment questions that they put in, and I have a friend of mine who is actually a constituent of representative dale who is here to speak for the bill thank you members
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
3:13
thank you representative we have now we have a question from senator ma'am sorry excuse me representative steel
Speaker 11
3:20
thank you mr chairman i was just uh... going to ask if the dog met all of the
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
3:28
necessary qualifications to well i will let dr mays who actually has a has a doctorate speak to the question about the dog, but a couple of members who were interested in purchasing one of these degrees, we have a few days, assuming this bill, or hoping that
this bill passes, so if you want to get one, you need to get it
Speaker 11
3:48
quickly. No, with all seriousness, I hope the bill passes.
I have a couple of technical questions, but if you'd like me to yield until your people from the department come out, I could do that, Mr. Chairman. If that's okay
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
4:03
with Representative Webb, that's fine with me. That would
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
4:06
be great. Thank you, Representative Steele. Thank you, Chairman Cheatham. Committee, any other
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
4:11
questions of Representative Webb? If not, if this time I think we have one person signed up to speak for the bill. I don't have anyone that's against it, that won't speak against it.
And I have one signed up to speak for it. Is that correct? okay Mr. Mays if you will come to the end of the table identify yourself for the record you'll be recognized bring it
Speaker 16
4:39
up here sir and let Mr. Hudson take care of that for you
Speaker 22
5:28
I'll leave you with a copy. Should I just sit down?
Ben Mayes
Unverified
5:58
Identify yourself the record, please, sir, then
Speaker 31
6:06
you may proceed. Good morning. My name is Ben Mayes. I've lived and practiced veterinary medicine in Clinton, Arkansas for about 35 years. Raised a family there. I've served on the local school board for 22 years. I'm very passionate about education. Governor Huckabee appointed me to the State Board of Education in 2006. I have sort of a unique perspective about this bill, which I think makes it important
that I speak to you today in favor of this bill because I think I'll bring some things to life that maybe you didn't know about. If you spend any time at all on the Internet, you've probably been bombarded with offers to better yourself from a plethora of online colleges and universities. these online schools run the full spectrum of legitimacy. Some of them are totally legitimate.
They have programs that are rigorous and challenging. But then on the other end of the spectrum are institutions that are totally flim-flam, that are just diploma mills, and they provide false credentials to unscrupulous individuals who want to better themselves by simply buying a diploma rather than earning one. The worst of the flim-flam institutions typically grant degrees based on what they call life
experience, and that takes me to a discussion of some of the strange materials that you have in front of you. I believe that there is no technique better at persuasion than the humor of parody to point out ills and social problems. So with that said, I'd like to introduce everyone to one of the funniest guys I know, and that's Dr. Maxwell Sniffingwell.
Dr. Sniffingwell is an accomplished stud dog. He's had a lifetime of experience in the field of, let's say, applied reproductive science. And based on a description of Max's experiences in the field, and that's the blue copy in your folder. Based on those life experiences and my $549 money order, Belford University,
which is a highly advertised online institution, granted this English Bulldog a doctorate in reproductive science. And they did so with remarkable speed. We sent the application at about midnight one night. We got the letter of approving his doctorate degree the next morning, pending a receipt of my $549. When FedEx delivered Dr. Sniffing Will's graduation packet,
which incidentally came from the United Arab Emirates, he and I were delighted to find inside not only this gold-embossed diploma, but also a transcript of courses that Max had supposedly successfully completed. That's in your packet. Two certificates of merit and a letter of recommendation for any potential employer complete with a direct toll-free number to the registrar's office at Belford University
just in case the potential employer wanted to verify that Dr. Sniffingwell did indeed earn his degree. I should confess that the only reason Max did not graduate with a four-point grade point on his transcript and the distinction of magna cum laude is that I was too cheap to spring for the $75 extra that it would have cost.
Speaker 31
10:26
as I said, sometimes parity points to very serious problems. And let me give you an example of a problem that recently happened that points this out. Not long ago, the State Board of Education reviewed an application from an applicant who referred to himself as doctor. He had indicated on his resume that he had earned a Ph.D. It turned out that his doctorate degree was, in fact, bogus. It had no backing from any recognized accreditation agency.
And my point being, this person was not nearly as qualified as he wanted the state to think he was with his application. To address the problem of false academic credentials, we need a law that deals with both the providers as well as the users. And I think this bill does a very good job of handling it from both sides. The providers of false credentials actually kind of fall into two camps.
You've got the totally bogus flim flammers like Belford University, and you've got those in between institutions that really would like maybe to have a good program, but they're never going to have a legitimate program until they fall under some kind of accreditation scrutiny, and that's what this bill would do. And then the users, of course, are of two types, and the very worst are the con artists who want to just buy a diploma so that they can dupe the public for personal gain.
And then there are truly individuals, I believe, who are a little naive about the whole nature of academics and who might quite innocently really think that by taking a few courses and by sending the school, you know, $549, that they can get a legitimate degree, even a master's or a doctorate. And these people are actually victims of this situation more so than they are abusers. But I believe Representative Webb's bill does a very good job in addressing both sides of this issue.
And there are at least 14 states now that have laws dealing with this problem. problem. It's going to be a bigger and bigger problem with Internet usage, and I think we really do need to get a handle on it. So I believe this bill deserves to go to the House floor with a unanimously positive vote from the Education Committee. Thanks. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
13:02
you. Committee, do you have any questions of this gentleman?
This gentleman, my representative, Paris, I was afraid you'd have a
Speaker 3
13:13
question. It's still again. Yes, how old is
Speaker 36
13:18
Dr. Sniffenwell? He's six. He's six? Well, on course number 25017, he's got his first C-plus down there. He's also somewhat of a slacker. Okay, all right. And he likes some
Speaker 30
13:30
subjects very well, and some he can just kind of let go. Okay, all
Speaker 38
13:38
Representative Steele, I hate to even recognize you, but go right ahead. No, I'm
Speaker 10
13:43
serious this time. Thank you, Representative Way Up,
Speaker 11
13:45
for bringing this. I think it's good legislation. I was reading it last night, and I just had one question, just to make sure that this would not cover honorary degrees. I know sometime
Speaker 40
13:57
in the church community specifically we have honorary doctorates and so forth, and it wouldn't happen. No,
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
14:03
that is exempt. And thank you for your question, Representative Seale.
Speaker 42
14:09
Representative Hutchinson, be careful. I think this is a
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
14:14
great bill, and I sponsored it. I'm just not sure how do you monitor the Internet. Where would – how would you do that? If they're in the other side of the world and selling degrees, how
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
14:29
would you – I think we'll give you a two-part answer if I can be recognized. And first of all, I would like to ask Mr. Broadway to come to the table to give an answer up to that.
But also, when I was looking at the Oregon website, which is considered the model for this type of legislation, they have a big picture of a sheep on there, and it said, don't be fleeced. And so they have a constantly updated list of entities where you can buy these degrees that will not be accepted for use. So, again, we're using some humor to talk about something that's actually a very serious subject. So
Speaker 44
15:11
someone could, for a joke, get this fake degree and not be committing some terrible crime.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
15:18
it's just when they try to pawn it off as a real degree then? That would
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
15:25
be correct. And that's listed in the bill of the instances where you would try to use it as something that would be real. And actually, I think in one of the states that I looked at, it has a stronger penalty, or several of the states have a stronger penalty than we're suggesting. Any other questions? No.
Speaker 47
15:48
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have Zanette Douglas here, Shane Broadway first, Deputy Director of Arkansas Department
Speaker 48
15:54
of Higher Education, and she can address the question in regards to
Speaker 49
16:03
Representative Hutchison on the Internet. Thank you. I'm Zanette Douglas
Speaker 51
16:06
with Arkansas Department of Higher Education, and I oversee the for-profit out-of-state and this type of institutions. And what we will do with the Internet, if I see we often get information from individuals
in the state that they have been approached, and I immediately contact the institutions and let them know that there are rules and guidelines they must follow in order to offer these degrees. I also get phone calls from individuals, which is they're taking care of themselves because they'll call and say, well, if I get a degree from this institution, can I use it? So I get information also from that. I also belong to a statewide network, and we are always looking at these suspicious
institutions and accrediting bodies, and we pass information along to each other when one of us hears about somebody setting up or our advertising. And you may have mentioned this
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
17:07
and I may have, I was looking at some material up here, but does the department actually police credentials that universities and colleges have in the state or is that
Speaker 49
17:21
the college or university's responsibility? I do not I know that answer, but I would think the
Speaker 51
17:29
colleges and universities are doing that. I do get calls from agencies throughout the state who have an individual applying for a job, and they will call me to find out if their
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
17:40
degree is legitimate. All right. Thank you. F.C. Roebuck,
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
17:45
you're recognized. Thank you. My question is for the Department of Higher Education, and I want to refer to the accrediting agency
because it's my understanding that not only do we have universities giving bogus degrees, but we also have a very easy system for people to set up a crediting agency. So I was glad to see that Representative Webb put in on page 2, lines 20 through 22, that an individual shall not establish or operate an accrediting agency in this state without recognition by the United States Department of Education. What, I guess, what guidelines do we have from the department on accrediting agencies
and where would we find on your website or in your information those recognized accrediting agencies? Actually, one part to
Speaker 51
18:35
that would be that any out-of-state or in-state private that wants to offer programs, they must have a legitimate accrediting agency before we even consider those programs. And that is recognized by the Department of Education or by CHIA. So that is one thing that we do to make sure that that is legitimate.
Actually, you can go to the Department of Education. They have a list of accrediting, recognized accrediting agencies also. On our website, you can go to our Department of Education under Academic Affairs. If you go to Institutional Certification, you will see our guidelines about accrediting agencies. We do not have a list on my website as far as which ones are legitimate.
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
19:32
And, Mr. Chair, follow-up. Does the department do professional development with university and college personnel on how to actually verify credentials? We've got Cynthia Moulton here to answer that for you. Representative
Speaker 61
19:52
Roebuck. Thank you. You want to repeat the question?
Speaker 63
20:06
do professional development. You recognize yourself. The record, please, ma'am. Okay, excuse me. Cynthia Moten, Arkansas Department of Higher Education. We do not do professional development with the institutions on how to recognize bogus credentials. We do state in our policy the requirements for individuals teaching coursework at the institution,
and we indicate at that point that the credentials must be from a recognized accrediting body. Currently, there is no legislation that addresses staff review of accreditors. So that is why staff was supportive of adding this language to the legislation because there is no statement about review of accreditors or accreditors operating in the state.
So the only way we've addressed it in the past is to have the requirement that institutions have recognized accreditation. So let me
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
21:15
go a little bit further. So if I were a graduate dean, which I have been, and someone brings to me credentials from out of the country or out of the state and I'm admitting them to graduate school, what support mechanism do I have from the department to tell me how those credentials are to be viewed, if they are bogus?
because it's not only just Belford University, but I could actually now with the Internet and with computers, I could actually make my own transcript, I could do whatever. And I have to tell you, sad to say, that as a dean, I saw a lot of that. So I guess my question goes to what is the department doing to help our colleges and universities in helping them to recognize bogus credentials and to also be more on guard as these credentials
come across the desk of our registrars and our deans, both undergraduate
Speaker 63
22:14
and graduate. Again, we do not do professional development. When we receive a call from an institution, we immediately look at the U.S. Department of Education website as well as the Council on Higher Education Accreditation website to see if it is a recognized accrediting body. We are in contact with institutions that employ individuals from across the world,
say, University of Arkansas Fayetteville. You know, we would put the institution in contact with entities that work on a regular basis with faculty from different parts of the world and actually have in place mechanisms to review the credentials. So we don't do it directly. We just put them in contact with institutions that do it on a regular basis. So your
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
23:10
testimony is that it's up really to the individual university and college
to set up those mechanisms in-house. So it could be that one university and college is doing a great job at this because they have availed themselves of training through perhaps a professional organization or in some way, but there's no consistency in training on these credentials. Is that what I'm
Speaker 70
23:32
understanding from the department? That's correct. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chair
Unverified
23:37
Thank you. Rep. Dale, you recognized? I have a motion at
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
23:43
the proper time. Thank you, Rep. Dale.
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
23:45
Rep. Carnine, do you have a question? Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think representing Roebuck got to the most of it. I think we ought to be obviously encouraging more virtual education both K-12 through university, but obviously they're always in a case where there's an emerging programs that we probably need to be more diligent.
Are there plans, I guess is my question, both from the standpoint of this bill, that we can provide more transparency, not just to educational institutions, but the public at large? Many people, I shouldn't say many, there are those which have represented themselves as having this type of degree in employment, which has obviously nothing to do with trying to be employed by a university or college. It looks like to me that all employers and
the public at large needs to have an identifiable site in which we as a state have some oversight. So my question really is what are we going to be doing or what proposals may be on the offing both from a standpoint of elementary secondary education and university education that would give the public a glimmer into this. There are those which have run for office that have suggested they have degrees
that they did not possess. So is there something in the offing that would allow
us to have more transparency of this whole issue? Could we address
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
25:38
he was asking a question. Would you agree? MS. We would agree. And I think this –
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
25:44
the insert from the Department of Higher Ed is the first step to that. And, again, I would encourage everybody to go look at that Oregon website, because that
does – not just for higher ed, but it's a resource for the citizens of Oregon. And I think Dr. Mays had a comment in response to
Speaker 31
26:07
that as well, Representative Carnot. MR. I think historically the U.S. Department of Education's list of accrediting agencies has been the standard for this. If you go to the Belford University website, they'll list an accrediting agency that sounds very impressive. Of course, it's just as bogus
as Belford University. And you won't find that accrediting agency listed with the U.S. Department of Education list of accreditors. And I think any accrediting agency that's not on that list should be held at suspect, and that's the only way I know for consumers or applicant reviewers to address the problem of whether or not someone's credential is bogus. MR. Thank you. MR. And, Representative Carnot, we will go back and look.
Speaker 47
26:55
Some of that information is available on our website, but we can go back and look to make sure that it is as accessible as possible and as much information there that we can provide Add to the
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
27:13
institutions and then notify them on how they can locate that information. Mayor Mrakas- Of course, my concern obviously is not necessarily always with the academic institution. My concern is that the general public potentially is being built.
Obviously they got $500 of your money. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't know that our employers or generally in many cases some aspects of government are as sophisticated. And I wonder is there a way that we could in fact advertise that there is a website that would in fact suggest that this or this is not legitimate. And I'm looking for something that would be a lot less cumbersome to the various employers
and the people of the state. I mean, you just simply say these are areas of which you need to obviously be concerned that there are those that are passing themselves off as.
I mean, it's kind of like the
Speaker 47
28:16
scam site for the Attorney General. Representative Carnine, Ms. Bolton mentioned one possible way we could do that to assist with the employers is to work with the Department of Workforce Services, who obviously has the list of employers so that we could work with them to coordinate sending a link to that
information to all the employers that they go through workforce services thank you very
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
28:45
much that in clamor we have a question yes thank you mister chair probably represented car and with his follow-up questions addressed mine but could we have a could we ask the department for a follow-up on this without just to see what happens and what's going on. You can ask for
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
28:59
anything you want. I'm sure, Senator. I guess I'm
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
29:02
asking, would there be a consensus that we should do that?
I think that the number of ways that we're trying to let people know about bogus universities and bogus accrediting agencies would both be very helpful. Maybe we could get it listed also on the Attorney General's website. That could be a very good suggestion. Thank you. We'll be glad to do that, Mr.
Speaker 78
29:26
Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Broadway. Committee, any other questions before I go back to Mr. Dale? Mr. Dale, do you have a motion?
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
29:35
Motion to do pass. Committee, motion to do pass. All those in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed, no. I believe the ayes have it. Thank you, Mrs. Webb, and thank you, Dr. Mays, for your testimony. And, you know, I'm assuming you paid for this certificate for your –
I've got a little school I'm starting to get across. I'd like to send some information to you. Yes, running a special. Thank you very much.
Committee, one other thing I'd like to represent. I'd like to
recognize one of my favorite representatives, Mrs. Clemmer. I think she has a special guest in our audience today. Thank you, Representative Cheetah.
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
30:19
My mother is sitting back here by Dr. Abernathy, our former chair, and I thank him for helping her find a seat, a retired educator also. Great.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
30:31
Good to have you with us. Committee, I'll remind you again, Senate Ed is meeting up on adjournment today. If you're in Representative Summers, you have a – you're recognized.
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified
30:42
Question before we adjourn, sir. Okay. Go ahead. I read in the paper a couple of days ago about a problem that our National Guard is having with students qualifying to enter the National Guard. And it brings to mind, do we have any ability to determine how many are successful in applying to the different armed forces? And I know you can't answer this off the cuff, or maybe you can, as knowledgeable as you are. But I'm wondering about overall how successful Arkansas graduates are when they are Arkansas people when they apply to the armed forces.
And I don't know how to go about getting that information. If you'd give me some guidance, please, sir. Mr.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
31:32
Summers, I don't have that off the top of my head. I could probably get it
pretty close. But to get exact, we'll ask Mr. Kimball, maybe he can, Department of Ed, can get us something, information on that. I'm sure the information is there, just getting access to it, which I think we can do. Anything else, committee? If not, meeting's adjourned.
Agenda
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
Representative Kathy Webb
Unverified
Speaker 11
Speaker 16
Speaker 22
Ben Mayes
Unverified
Speaker 31
Speaker 30
Speaker 3
Speaker 36
Speaker 38
Speaker 10
Speaker 40
Speaker 42
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
Speaker 44
Speaker 47
Speaker 48
Speaker 49
Speaker 51
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
Speaker 61
Speaker 62
Speaker 63
Speaker 70
Chair
Unverified
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
Speaker 76
Representative Ann V. Clemmer
Unverified
Speaker 78
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified