House Public Health, Welfare and Labor Part 2
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Bills discussed (1)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
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HB1100
· 5 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1100”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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I had just a little bit of trouble understanding you. I'm sorry about that. It's my understanding you have a couple of amendments, so if you'll
present those first, we'll adopt the amendments, and then you'll recognize to present the bill. Thank you, sir. Actually, it's one amendment. It adds signatures, co-sponsors to the bill. It deletes line 10 through 13 on page 2. It adds the word and on line 14.
It deletes line 15, which is the number of the paragraph and changes that to 2. And it deletes line 18 through 27. Okay. Thank you, Representative Wilkins and members. I know we're still working through the tablets,
but if you – over on the left column, under the House Bill 1100, there's an amendment break-off. And if you'll click the MGF 128, that will pull up the amendment if you'd like to read it.
Sometimes there's a little bit of a delay. Blank screen. Blank screen. I think sometimes there's a little bit of a delay, so give it a second, and it looks like staff's going to help out, see if we can get it pulled up. Saving paper, wasting time.
If you'll bear with us for a little bit, as those of you who are at the first meeting know, we have moved over to a paperless system here, and
I think it will be good long-term. It just takes some getting used to, so I think we're getting the kinks worked out. You should be – I think staff is helping pull up. They also have a couple paper copies, but most of this amendment is just technical correction, and it is members' own.
If somebody would like a motion to adopt, I think we could go ahead and move ahead. Motion to adopt by Representative Wardlaw. Is there any discussion? All in favor to adopt the amendment, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right, Representative, your bill has been amended, and you're recognized to present House
Chair. House Bill 1100 deals with the Affordable Health Care Act and who
pays for abortion under that act. If that act was passed by Congress in 2010 and signed by the President,
under that act, this bill will prohibit taxpayer money to being used for abortion. And that's all this bill will not prevent anybody from getting an abortion if they so choose. It will just define who pays for it. I feel like there's a certain responsibility here and that we have a certain responsibility in
life. And whether or not someone gets an abortion a lot of
times is their own choice.
But I also feel like taxpayer money shouldn't be used for it, and that's what this bill does. it's a good bill I think it's something that we need I think most Arkansans are probably on board with this bill and so I ask for
a good vote on it I'll take questions Thank you Representative Wilkins Members
of the committee any questions for Representative Wilkins Representative Wardlaw you're recognized
Representative Jeff Wardlaw
Unverified
4:05
Thank you Mr. Chairman I'll have a motion
at the proper time Thank you Representative Letting,
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
4:13
you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Wilkins, you stated this bill is to prevent taxpayer money from being spent on abortions. Yes, sir. Isn't it true that at this point absolutely no taxpayer money
is spent to cover those procedures? At this point, I agree with you. After we, you know, there is provision in the Affordable Health Care Act for abortion to pay for abortion.
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
4:36
Okay. One little follow-up to that, Mr. Chair, if I may. You made a comment about responsibility, and I agree there absolutely should be responsibility in life. But isn't it true that insurance companies at this time, they don't cover elective procedures? This is only in the event that there is
a problem with the pregnancy or the
mother. And this bill allows for that. This bill, you know, this bill allows for abortion
through the threat of the mother to rape and incest.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Representative Ludding. Representative Mayberry. Thank
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
5:22
you, Mr. Chair. So just to clarify, with regards to the use of taxpayer dollars, this is essentially just keeping the status quo. It is. Is
that correct? It is. Thank you. thank you representative Mayberry any other questions from the committee okay thank you representative Wilkins representative Laura Wardlaw before we
get to your motion we have some members of the audience signed up to speak on the bill first we have miss Bettina Brownstein with the ACLU to speak against the bill thank you miss Brownstein you recognize to speak against House Bill 1100. MS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of
Speaker 35
5:59
the committee. Can you hear me? Okay. I am Bettina Brownstein. I'm a private attorney in practice in Little Rock. I have been for many years. I am a cooperating attorney with the ACLU of Arkansas, and I speak on behalf of that
organization. We oppose this bill. First of all, we cannot discern the reason for it. I think there's some misconceptions about payment for abortions. And second, we think it will bring about harmful consequences that may not be intended or anticipated if this bill is passed by the members of this committee. And third, it is unconstitutional under Roe v. Wade and Casey, Planned Parenthood v. Casey.
Speaker 35
6:51
three of those points, if I may. This bill concerns insurance offered on the health insurance exchange that is authorized by the Affordable Care Act. As stated on the website of the insurance department, the insurance exchange is a competitive marketplace where individuals, families, and smaller employees can shop for, select, and enroll in private health plans.
And that's the key. It's private health plans. It's a virtual marketplace. This is where a woman, using her own money, can purchase insurance on the exchange. And it's any insurance that is offered by an insurance company. Now, this bill, as Mr. Representative Wilkins stated, is to prevent taxpayer money being spent on elective abortion. Well, under the Affordable Care Act, no public money can be spent on an abortion.
No federal money can be spent on an abortion, any kind of elective abortion. And that is because there was the Nelson Amendment. And if you recall Mr. Ben Nelson, the senator from Nebraska, that had to be in that bill, that law. So as it is now, even if you don't opt out of providing for abortion on the individual exchange, there will be no public money to fund that coverage, no subsidy, and no money.
And the woman has to write a separate check, and it's all calculated, and it's set forth in the law, similar to the calculations that's in this bill if a woman wants – Mr. Wilkins says a woman can obtain optional elective abortion coverage. So I want to make that clear. This bill is unnecessary to prevent taxpayer money from funding elective abortion. There's also Amendment 68 that this state passed which prohibits public funding of abortion, any state funds, and that is still good law under the Affordable Care Act.
The Affordable Care Act expressly makes provisions that state law will not be overruled when it comes to abortion. So for those two reasons, this bill is unnecessary. And also there's an attorney general opinion on this. Senator Bledsoe asked these questions of the attorney general. And there's an attorney general opinion if you want to read about this. It's number two thousand and eleven zero two zero. This bill purports to allow a woman to purchase optional elective abortion coverage.
As Honorable Mr. Wilkins said, it doesn't, you know, a woman can still purchase abortion coverage. First of all, insurance policies do not cover elective abortion. If you've seen the primary insurer in the state, Blue Cross, if you look at their policy, It says only when a physician considers an abortion medically necessary. There is no elective abortion coverage. And in fact, there are no optional separate abortion coverages available in the nation.
There's no such thing as an abortion rider. So in effect, if you pass this bill and it becomes law, you are preventing a woman from using her own money to purchase private insurance for abortion coverage that even won't be elective. you simply won't have it. And that comes to another problem with this bill. It contains rape and incest exception and life of the mother. It doesn't contain a broader health exception, say if a woman gets cancer and needs to have an abortion.
It doesn't prevent, it doesn't have an exception for fetal anomalies. If a woman finds later in a pregnancy she has a fetal anomaly, it doesn't provide for any of those things. It doesn't allow a woman to get coverage for those things. Finally, I want to say it's unconstitutional because these provisions, with this lack of exception for the health of the mother, with this lack of exception for feeling, with this complete lack of exception if a woman is suicidal or has mental trauma,
the complete lack of exceptions in this bill makes it an undue burden under Roe v. Wade and Casey, and thus unconstitutional. If you have any questions, I'll be glad to try to answer them. If not, I ask it or
vote no. Thank you, Ms. Brownstein. Any questions? Representative Love, you're recognized
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
11:36
for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want a little clarification. Now, when we're talking about this law is unconstitutional, are you saying that if we pass this law, we open ourselves up to potential lawsuits?
Speaker 41
11:50
Absolutely. And with considerable expense to the state, the ACLU and other organizations, both national organizations and local organizations, are committed to challenging any law that is passed that
Speaker 35
12:03
we believe is unconstitutional. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you,
Representative Love. Representative Mayberry. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
12:15
Chair. Thank you, Ms. Brownstein. You
mentioned Amendment 68 to the Arkansas Constitution and that that was valid law, correct?
Unfortunately for me, but yes. Okay. One portion of Amendment 68 says that, and I'm paraphrasing, but that it is the policy of the state of Arkansas to protect the life of every unborn child from conception to birth to the extent allowed by the federal Constitution. But under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, there was a provision in it, the federal law, that allowed states to opt out of the abortion coverage.
So would you then say that, in your opinion, that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional? because if it's allowing the state to opt out of that coverage and that the Constitution of the state of Arkansas says that, I mean, by Amendment 68, we're compelled to pass this bill today because it says that we have the obligation. I do not
Speaker 35
13:37
have an opinion as to whether it's unconstitutional.
I really haven't studied it. So you think
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
13:43
there's a possibility that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional? Probably not, because it's already been litigated
Speaker 35
13:48
in the Supreme Court, and I think all the lawyers that could have thought of something to make it – all the lawyers who – all the people and all the lawyers who didn't want the Affordable Care Act to be law would have thought of it and would have brought a lawsuit to challenge it on that ground. And since there are a lot brighter attorneys out there than me that didn't, I think it probably would withstand a constitutional
Speaker 59
14:10
challenge. So you don't think that the Obama administration is pro-life then?
Speaker 45
14:16
I'm just – Some of them, probably some in
Speaker 59
14:20
the administration are, and probably some aren't. And we're all pro-life. I understand. So if you believe that the federal act is constitutional and you believe that Amendment 68
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
14:32
to the Arkansas Constitutional is valid law, I guess I fail to see how us passing this bill today is anything but constitutional. Is that a question? Are you aware that I'm – wouldn't you agree?
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
14:50
you aware of how many, and I'm not sure of this figure, but of other states that have opted out? No, I'm not. Okay.
I'm fairly certain other states have, and seems to be no problem at this juncture. I've not heard of it.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
15:12
there's no problem. And would you also agree that while you intend to challenge this, if it is passed, that any law passed can be challenged?
Speaker 35
15:24
There is something called Rule 11. Attorneys have an ethical duty not to challenge laws
Speaker 47
15:30
which they think, you know, there would be no basis
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
15:36
to do so. So no. But a basis of some type can be, I guess, found. People have all kinds of beliefs, and you dig hard enough, and you can find some basis to make a challenge.
Speaker 35
15:57
Actually, I can only speak as an attorney. Actually not. You have to have a good faith basis. You have to research the law. You have to look at the facts. You cannot just willy-nilly based on a belief. You should not ethically challenge. Right. Should not. I would not do that. Okay.
Speaker 70
16:18
I appreciate it. Thank you, Representative Mayberry. Representative Wilkins. Are you aware
of any lawsuits in this – in the country right now? There are 18 states that have taken this opt-out.
Speaker 35
16:29
There is a – there's a lawsuit that was pending in Kansas. It was a little different bill, a law, than this one. It had actually even broader provisions. So you have to look at each, the language of each bill that
Speaker 73
16:46
has passed. So yes, it was challenged. But you're not aware of any current lawsuits now
pending on this specific bill? Some may be on the... It's very
That's the only one I'm familiar with. And in Kansas only allowed for abortion in the life of
the mother, I believe. It did not allow
Speaker 41
17:12
disallow any insurance coverage, whether on the exchange or not. That was the big
difference. Let me ask you this. If it's not permissible under the Affordable Health Care Act, then why does the Affordable Health Care Act offer the state an opt-out on it?
Speaker 35
17:30
They had to do it to get a pass, as I understand it. It was
a compromise. They were reaching across the aisle. But now, you said a while ago, as I understood it, that it wasn't allowed under the Affordable Health Care Act. It's not allowed to pay for abortion. But each state, I mean, the Affordable Health Care Act offers each state the opt-out on this, doesn't it? Yes, it does. It offers each one of them. Yes, it
Speaker 35
17:59
does. But if you don't opt out, it'll have the same – in the future, today, in the future, it'll have the same effect as you say you are trying to accomplish, and I believe that.
No taxpayer money will be used for abortion, so I think it's unnecessary to have this bill, and it has other problems associated with it. So I think what you're trying to accomplish is the future under the Affordable Care Act and the present, actually.
why we've got 18 states that have passed this, and ACLU has apparently taken no action at all, and you say you're going to sue in this state.
That's not true. The ACLU sued in Kansas. Well, I think the contention in Kansas is it only allows for the endangerment of the mother and don't allow for rape and incest. I think that's right. Now, I'm not 100% positive about that. But if it was not possible to use taxpayer money on abortion under the Affordable Health Care Act, You still have an answer to why they offered the opt-out plan, why each state can opt out of that plan if it's not a...
Speaker 35
19:22
I think, I'm not in Washington, but I understand it was an effort to be able to pass the Affordable Care Act to accommodate those people who have very strong anti-abortion views. They go beyond just the taxpayer who's going to pay for a question, which is, I understand, your concern. So there are some people who have even – they don't want to have an abortion, have any woman be allowed to have any abortion ever, no matter who pays for it. But it is in the
law. The law that passed, that is in the law.
That's right. It is in the law. That is in the
law. All right. Thank you, Representative Wilkins. Last question from Representative Meeks. Thank you, Chairman. And actually,
Representative Mayberry already asked my question, so I'll pass. Thank you better. Thank you, Representative Meeks. Thank you, Ms.
Brownstein. Thank you. Thank you. Next, we're going to rotate to Ms. Nancy Emmons to speak for the bill. So, Ms. Emmons, if you will go to the end of the table,
state your name and affiliation for the record,
you are recognized to speak for
Nancy Emmons
Unverified
20:34
House Bill 1100. Good morning. My name is Nancy Emmons, and I live in Hot Springs Village. I am for this bill. This bill does not take a woman's choice away. She has the choice if she wants an abortion. The bill is just to say that we as taxpayers do not want to pay for the abortion. Since Roe v. Wade in 1973, Arkansas alone has had 100,000 abortions.
And you and I know 100,000 women did not pay for all of those abortions. You and I have paid through Planned Parenthood, through the federal government, and we are just asking that our state not do this. I feel it's a woman's choice, and if she wants an abortion, then that's her choice. But I do not feel that the people in Arkansas should pay for that abortion.
We have little ones that we are their voice. And we are the only ones that are going to be able to protect the ones that are very little. I want to say one thing. We get into this where I don't know where the fetus begins and the fetus ends. I would just like for you to follow with me just a minute. When that baby is in the mother's womb, you don't go get its feet from the pharmacist.
You don't go get its legs from the pharmacist. You don't go get its heart. That is already there when the sperm hits the egg. And I mean, I just hate to put it that way, but that's just as plain as it goes. The minute that sperm hits that egg, we've got a baby. And I want you to know, this is not a frivolous thing with the people of Arkansas. We have elected you, many of you ran pro-life, to stick with us on issues such as this.
We do not want to pay for a woman's abortion. And remember, we're not taking her choice away from her. That's her choice. And if that's her choice, she needs to pay for it. And I pray and I hope that we have elected you, as many of you ran pro-life, that you will stand up. And as this lady just said, and as our Attorney General has done in the past, whenever we get to where we're trying to protect the sanctity of life,
they raise that lawyer letter that we're going to be sued. well let me tell you if that little infant is not worth standing up and taking that stand that they can have life or if that woman wants to have the choice and I tell you again we're not taking her choice away from her we're letting her have that choice but we as taxpayers do not want
to pay for this And Representative Wilkins is right. It is in there, and you will pay for it if you don't pass this bill, that we will not be paying for a woman's choice to have an abortion. So thank you, and we do appreciate what you do. I know your decisions are hard, but you were elected,
many of you that you told us as constituents you were pro-life and when we sent you pro-life means we don't want to pay to take that child's life and if that's the choice of the mother then let the mother do that Okay, thank you Ms. Ammons Are
you willing to take questions? You are Representative Letting you are recognized for a question Thank you Mr. Chair and thank you
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
24:42
Ms. Ammons for speaking today Okay, I'm going to keep talking for just a minute
If you don't mind, Mr. Chair Just to clarify for the record That this is not about preventing Arkansans From paying That's okay Just a little Sorry,
Speaker 92
24:55
I thought you were talking to the chairman No, that's okay, ma'am
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
24:59
Again, thank you for speaking today I know a lot of times, especially with the crowd That tends to be in public health It does take a lot of courage to go down and sit at the end of the table so we all appreciate you being here today. But I just do want to clarify again that this is not about preventing our Kansans from paying for this procedure
because that does not happen. And this also isn't about women who choose to have an abortion. This bill is addressing women who need the procedure for medical reasons. So I just wanted to make sure that, again, we're all working with the same set of facts today. Mr.
Nancy Emmons
Unverified
25:37
Ledwick, may I say something? Your record on abortion is straight across the board, voting for abortion. Ms. Simmons, I'm
going to just stop you. I would prefer, I think it's an admonition I should have given at the beginning of the committee
to keep the discussion limited to House Bill 1100. Okay. It questions testimony and everything. Well, what I would like to say to
Nancy Emmons
Unverified
25:58
you is they have a choice. The choice is, their choice, but we don't want to pay for
Speaker 99
26:03
it. I mean, it's just right. Now, what is your question that I'm not answering right? I just wanted
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
26:09
to clarify again for the committee, since the people of Arkansas are watching us here today, that we are addressing this bill and talking about facts and that Arkansans do not currently pay for this procedure. And I also want to say in regards to my record. We really do because we.
Ma'am. Oh, I'm sorry. You mentioned my record. You also use the label pro-life earlier. I tend to find that to be just kind of a silly little label that we like to use in politics. I would like just to do a real quick poll of the committee. Would the pro-death or anti-life members of the committee raise their hand? Okay. So every member of the body at both ends of this Capitol regard life as precious. But there are those of us that also realize that it's always not that simple.
There are some situations where it's just incredibly complicated. And so no one here in the history of this body has ever voted for abortion. We have just voted for a mother and her husband or partner to make sure that they are able
to make that decision. It's between them, their doctor, and their God. And that's where I'll leave it with the chair. Well, Mr.
Nancy Emmons
Unverified
27:16
Ledwick, your record doesn't speak of that. And some of you on this board, your record hasn't spoken of that.
We had seven bills last time, and you voted against every one of them. Now, does that act
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
27:32
like you're pro-life? ma'am we can continue this
conversation out in the hall that would be good you call me back to the chair I didn't okay are we done I think so thank you chairman yeah all right thank you miss Simmons next speak I believe against House Bill 1100 is Victoria lay with the an independent consumer speak against the
bill so miss lay are you in the audience Lee okay Lee miss Lee if you will identify yourself for the record and state your affiliation, and then you are recognized to speak against the bill. And again, this is the first of many bills we're going to have, so we'll get a little bit of a warm-up here. Please keep your comments limited directly to the content of House Bill 1100 and members. Same thing with the questions. You're recognized. Thank you, Chairman. My
Victoria Lee
Unverified
28:23
name is Victoria Lee, and I live and work in Little Rock.
I'm a single, self-employed woman who runs a solo legal practice. I'm here
Speaker 103
28:32
as a consumer to urge you not to pass House Bill 1100. I do not have health insurance right now because I cannot afford
Speaker 104
28:41
it. I'm very much looking forward to purchasing health insurance on the exchange under the Affordable Care
Speaker 103
28:47
Act. However, I'm very concerned about the effect that this bill will have on me and all similarly situated women.
Speaker 104
28:57
While I am single now, I would like to get married and have a
Speaker 103
29:03
family one day. This bill would prevent me from purchasing private health insurance with my own money, not federal money, not state money, but my own money to cover a medically necessary abortion. I am Catholic. I attended Mount St. Mary Academy here in Little Rock. I would be very reluctant to ever have an abortion.
Speaker 104
29:27
But what if something went terribly wrong in my future pregnancy? What if I became very ill? What if my baby were guaranteed to not survive long after a birth and would be in
Speaker 103
29:42
incredible pain the entire time? If this bill passes, my health insurance would not cover treatment for me. There is something called the Nelson Amendment and the Affordable Care Act, which already prevents federal money from being used to pay for abortions.
In Arkansas, we have Amendment 68, which prevents state money from being used to pay for abortions. House Bill 1100 does nothing that the Nelson Amendment and Arkansas Amendment 68 does not already do.
Speaker 104
30:16
This bill indicates that women can purchase a rider to cover abortions. But this is not true. Already no insurance company will ever cover an elective abortion.
And I've investigated further and no insurance company offers a rider to cover an abortion under the circumstances which I've described. Abortion riders
Speaker 103
30:43
simply do not exist. Just as no woman anticipates being raped, no woman ever anticipates being in the incredibly difficult situation of suffering through a hopeless pregnancy, but that is exactly what insurance is. Insurance is supposed to protect us from the unexpected, unimaginable circumstances.
If this bill passes, not only could I be faced with an agonizing emotional and physical situation, I would be crippled by a $20,000 or more hospital bill. The Nelson Amendment and Amendment 68 protects public money. House Bill 1100 does nothing to further that goal. This bill just leaves Arkansas women unprotected by not allowing an exception for the health of the mother or for fetal anomaly.
Other states opted out of the Affordable Care Act, as was discussed earlier, because they They do not have an Amendment 68, as Arkansas does. Because of the lack of exceptions, this bill just makes a bad situation worse. In spite of Amendment 68, if Arkansas still feels the need to opt out, the state should do so with a more humane bill. Please don't pass House Bill 1100. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
32:13
Representative Mayberry, you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate you being here today. I've got a question for you.
You said – I believe you said that you don't currently have insurance. I do not. Is that correct? And is that because of just the price of how much it
Speaker 104
32:34
costs to get insurance? That's right. I'm single and self-employed, and I
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
32:37
just can't afford it right now. I understand. A lot of folks are facing similar situations, and that's something we certainly want to
correct in the state. You said that you're looking forward to getting private insurance once the exchanges are set up. Is that correct? Yes, it's supposed to be
Victoria Lee
Unverified
32:53
more affordable under the exchange, and I'm looking forward to that.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
32:57
And do you know why or why that is going to be more affordable for you? I mean, how you'll be able to afford that where you can't – where right now you can't afford private insurance, after the exchange is set up, you believe that you will be able to afford that private
Speaker 104
33:15
insurance? Well, insurance under the exchange will be less expensive for everyone because there's no exception for preexisting conditions, and so everyone will be insured. Therefore, the risk would be spread out among everyone, and the premiums will be lower. And as I
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
33:29
understand it, there will also be federal subsidies involved for those who fall within a certain income level and that can go up to as much as four hundred percent of the of
Speaker 101
33:41
the poverty line you are correct however the Affordable Care Act under the Nelson
Speaker 104
33:46
Amendment already outlines that no subsidies can be used for abortion coverage so if if I qualify for a subsidy to use myself as an example and I want to buy health insurance under the exchange I would get a subsidy from the government, the state or the federal government. However, I'm not entirely sure how the subsidy works. But if I get a subsidy, I would have to pay – the insurance companies are required to calculate the cost of the abortion coverage separately from any
other coverage, and we would pay – I would have to write
Speaker 114
34:22
a separate check from my own private money to cover the abortion coverage and
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
34:28
my health insurance. But you would agree, though, that the
federal subsidies are taxpayer dollars that are utilized to be able to purchase that private insurance, correct? Private
Victoria Lee
Unverified
34:38
health insurance that would not cover an abortion. What this bill does prevents me from buying
Speaker 114
34:44
private health insurance with my own money to cover a medically necessary abortion.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
34:50
If this bill were to pass today, would you be in any different situation than what you are currently in right now?
Speaker 119
34:57
Absolutely. Starting in 2014, I would have
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
35:00
health insurance and I would not. I'm not talking about in 2014. I'm talking about if Arkansas were to opt out of the abortion piece of this, of the federal act, how would you be in a different situation than you are today with no private insurance whatsoever? Practically,
Speaker 104
35:18
your question doesn't make any sense because this bill won't apply until 2014 when the exchange becomes effective.
Okay. In 2014, then? I would be in a drastically different situation because I'm of childbearing age, and if I become pregnant and I need an abortion because my health is in danger or something is wrong with the baby, I would not be covered. And in those situations, abortions have to be performed in a hospital, and those bills are $20,000 and up. So
Speaker 121
35:48
I would be in a situation where I'd be stuck with a $20,000 bill.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
35:55
But currently, you would be in a situation where you were stuck, to use your words, stuck with a $20,000 bill.
Speaker 123
36:02
I know, but that doesn't have anything to do with this bill because it doesn't become effective until 20 –
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
36:11
I don't understand. Am I missing something? I think
you're probably missing quite a bit, but that's okay. Okay. Thank you, Representative Mayberry. Okay. So seeing, I'm sorry,
Representative Butch Wilkins, you're recognized for a question. Well, I'm going
to go back to, you know, you talked about the Hyde, no not the Hyde,
the Nelson Amendment and some other amendments, and Amendment 68, which passed overwhelmingly in Arkansas, which leads to me to believe that Arkansans do not want to pay or have their tax money to pay for abortion. That's what Amendment 68 said to me. That's right, and we do not. And we
Speaker 130
36:54
do not. But under the Affordable Health
Care Act, it can be. No, sir, it cannot. If it could be, and now tell me
where I'm wrong now, if it couldn't be, then why is
the opt-out there? Why are states allowed to opt out of the elective abortion procedures? Because the Affordable Care Act
Speaker 104
37:16
applies to federal money. The federal government can't tell the state what to do with its state's money. So we have the Nelson Amendment, which prevents federal money from being used for abortions. And we have Amendment 68, which prevents state money from being used for abortion. I think
it applies to all federal money. I think it applies to all money that's used in
Speaker 104
37:35
the health care exchange. Regardless, no federal money will ever be used, no state money, no public money will
ever be used for an abortion. That's not what this bill is about. This bill is about preventing me from buying health insurance to cover a medically necessary
abortion with my own private money. No, ma'am. That's not what this bill is
about, but thank you. Thank you, Representative Butch Wilkins. Representative Love, you
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
38:03
had a question. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, I don't have a question. I have a
comment, and my comment is this.
As I listen to the members address the citizenry that's coming, we need to be mindful that this is the people's house, and so therefore we need to treat the people with respect. Now I understand we may disagree with what's being said, but we can do it disagreeably. I mean, we could do it, we could disagree agreeably. Therefore, people that testify need to be treated with more respect than what I'm seeing right now.
And so at this point in time, we need to
Speaker 134
38:49
really think about that. We seriously need to think
about that. And that's my comment. Thank you. Okay. Noted, Representative Lowe. Any other questions from Representative Hank Wilkins? You're recognized.
Speaker 137
39:01
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask you if you would, do you have a copy of the bill in front of you? I do. Would you point out, you and Representative Butch Wilkins just had an exchange
and disagreed on the facts of what the bill purports to do. Would you show me, if you don't mind?
Speaker 103
39:30
Sure, yes, sir. Thank you. um if you look at page two lines two through six it discusses the exceptions under which i can purchase health insurance with my own private money and the exceptions are the death
of the mother not the health the death i have to be dying not just in in having a health crisis and in a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, that's line 6 and there's nothing in here about
Speaker 104
40:03
a fetal anomaly if my baby will die within hours of birth or days of birth and will be in
Speaker 103
40:12
pain the entire time I don't have coverage because I can't purchase insurance
with my own private money to cover that situation this If you look at line 31, this is where it states that individuals can purchase, quote, optional supplemental coverage for which a separate premium shall be paid outside of the exchange. Optional supplemental coverage does not exist.
It's not like flood insurance. Where I can call my insurance company and say, I'd like to purchase a rider in case the Arkansas River overflows for flood insurance to protect my house. There is no rider to call and request with my health insurance company to say, in case I am diagnosed with cancer while I'm pregnant, I would like some coverage. You can't do that. It just doesn't exist. And so this section here is superfluous.
It doesn't do anything. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative Hank Wilkins. Representative Meeks, you were
recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And actually, before you ask, I had a request from a committee, and I think it's reasonable. Is there anybody from the insurance department here? Okay. In a moment, not right now. but if we could get your if the staff could get name and titles afterwards I'd like to have you come forward and answer a few questions to help clarify thank you go ahead representative makes I apologize thank you I'm glad that we've
Speaker 149
41:57
clarified that there is the exception for the life of the mother rape and incest in here because I think there was some overlap or some confusion about whether this bill actually addressed that or not well can we clarify when you
Speaker 104
42:11
say life of the mother do you mean a doctor has to say you will die if you don't have an abortion or can a doctor say it would be in your
Speaker 103
42:22
benefit would be that it would benefit your health if you were to have an abortion well when
I say life of the mother yes life or death that is that is correct so not for the
Speaker 149
42:40
that's not that's not an excise want to make sure that everyone understands that that's not an exception that is correct And doing research on the pro-life issue, there's only two or three cases which potentially could result in the death of the mother. It's well-regarded medical science.
They just had a conference over in Ireland that actually went in-depth over this issue. So there's just a few reasons why the life of the mother may be in jeopardy. And they said even in those cases, an abortion wasn't necessary because the baby would already die in the mother's womb, like stillborn, that type of thing. So, you know, we're talking about you also talked about, you know, the baby being in pain, you know, after for a few, you know, for a few moments or a few days or whatever the case may be.
I don't want to get off into that because we're going to have a bill on Thursday that's going to discuss that. But medical sciences says that after 20 weeks, the baby feels pain. And for the baby to get an abortion or for the abortion to happen, the baby would feel pain in the mother's womb for the abortion to happen. So my question to you would be, along that lines is, does it matter if the baby is in pain and dies or you get an abortion?
Speaker 144
44:09
Is there really any difference in your mind? Effectively, this bill takes
Speaker 103
44:17
away my choice to decide whether or not my baby should feel pain during an abortion or my baby should feel pain for days after birth before dying. Because it takes away my choice because it doesn't allow me to purchase insurance for this unique situation. It would be a terrible situation no matter what.
But as everyone has stated and everyone has agreed, even the lady who testified before I did, a woman has that choice, and I think we all agree that she should have the right to choose between whether she's going to have an abortion or whether she's going to let a baby suffer after it's
Speaker 149
44:59
been born. And I would disagree with you because based on the fact now, again, our medical science has progressed to the point of, you know, where just even a few years ago babies, there
were some instances where babies wouldn't have lived, but because of the progress of medical science we're
Speaker 148
45:20
now finding that babies not only live but they live to be productive human beings
Speaker 103
45:26
and so you know again I think that would be classified as an unmedically necessary abortion we're talking
Speaker 104
45:32
about situations in which a baby will not survive so a doctor would have to say a baby is not going to survive and therefore it's a medically necessary abortion as opposed to maybe
maybe the situations in which a baby would or would not survive are smaller today than they were 20 years ago that's taken into account right and like
Speaker 148
45:56
I said just based on medical science reading pro-life
Speaker 149
45:58
and and other physicians who have gone into this I would just respectfully disagree with you we're not going to solve anything by going back and forth here today but I do appreciate you answer all questions I I would
Speaker 141
46:14
like to ask you a question ma'am that's a
that's not an order I'm sorry no thank you now I'd like everyone to hear the answer well that'd be up to representative makes if he chooses to advertise it but nonetheless I don't see any other questions for you so I appreciate you coming to testify thank you thank you okay and again members Now, I'm not going to try not to insert myself into it too much. I will say that as a general rule, when we get to the point where everything's been said but not everybody's said it, we're going to try to expedite the process a little bit.
I'm not saying we're quite there yet, especially given the emotion of the issue, but just keep that in mind as you're asking questions and also people testifying. At my discretion here, I'm going to exercise a little bit of it and ask the Department of Insurance to come forward, clarify some of the questions here that have been raised. I think we have Mr. Booth Rand and also my old friend, Commissioner Jay Bradford, to come testify about this. Is Jay here? Mr. Rand? Yes. MR. Good deal. Mr. Chairman, I think he's on his way right here.
MR. Okay. All right. If you will both sit at the end of the table, Mr. Bradford, if you all can scoot around
there. And the other end, kind of facing – yeah. We'll call up the head of the table. And if you'll state your name and position for the record, please, we've got some members that would like to ask you some
Speaker 164
47:41
questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Jay Bradford. I'm the Commissioner of Insurance. Mr. Rand also.
Speaker 165
47:49
Mr. Chairman, I'm Booth Rand, Chief Counsel of the Arkansas Insurance Department.
Thank you both. We need you to clarify a couple issues, if you can, about House Bill 1100. Representative Letting, did you have a question?
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
48:02
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Chair, I just did want to have the insurance department, again, clarify for us so that we're all operating with fact here that currently no insurance companies offer coverage for elective procedures, correct? As far as I know, that's correct. Okay. And no public money is being used to cover these procedures here in Arkansas, correct? Best of our knowledge.
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Meeks, you're recognized. Commissioner, could say in a year or two, could insurance companies start to offer a rider dealing with abortion?
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
48:37
It's certainly a possibility that they could file a policy form to provide a rider. Okay. I guess that would
Speaker 149
48:46
be my point is that we don't have it now, but if the man was there, an insurance company could.
So thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Representative Meeks. Okay,
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
49:01
Representative Mayberry, and then we're going to do Vice Chair Murdoch. Mr. Bradford, in your opinion, is the likelihood that insurance
companies would start offering an abortion rider, would that likelihood increase if this opt-out bill
Speaker 164
49:17
were to pass? In my personal opinion, I really don't feel like there would be a viable market for a
rider because people don't plan those type of events. They're spontaneity just after the fact of events. So no one would purchase a rider in advance, probably. And so that type of a concept, it doesn't lend itself to people purchasing coverage for that type of a procedure, in my view. That's my personal view.
Not even the Commissioner's view, but as an ex-agent, I would have to say that.
Speaker 113
50:00
Right. But there certainly wouldn't be anything to prevent the companies from
Speaker 176
50:04
offering that. Right. It would be the economics. The only people that would purchase it would
be people who are going to use it. Okay. You finished Representative Mayberry. Okay. Great. Vice Chair Murdoch said his question has been answered. And Representative Butch Wilkins, do you recognize my question? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, friends. How are you? Jay, I'm not sure how many abortions are performed in Arkansas, but we operate in a capitalistic system that is based on supply and demand, do we not? That's a free
say. And if there is a need for an insurance company to add a rider, do you not feel that they
would do that? And I understand what you're saying about this is something that we don't expect in a
Speaker 169
51:08
lot of cases, but... If there was an economic demand for
Speaker 164
51:12
such a rider, and a company could foresee making a profit there might be it might open up that segment
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
51:23
of the market those are pretty big ifs there frankly thank you sir
okay thank you representative wilkins last question i believe for representative love then we're going to go to closing for the bill representative wilkins so thank you
Speaker 51
51:40
thank you mr chair mr bradford have you have you reviewed this this piece of legislation right here yes i've
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
51:50
read that if this legislation passes could insurance companies offer a rocker
Speaker 164
52:00
could they offer a rocker could offer a rock if they would expect to be they could submit
application to the department for that writer and it would be certainly feasible that they would do so i don't know i shouldn't say feasible because of my previous testimony the economics i think you all understand that okay
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
52:21
now and also are so in as you said they can the economics about it but he i guess this is what what is this is puzzling me is that if if it's the economics
and i'm pretty sure women just don't plan on plan on this the end this is just a very confusing issue because if women don't plan on having abortions right and they can't plan on it on pregnancy putting their lives in jeopardy or at risk the n why what we have such a deal
well i mean what was was the necessity
for having such a deal representative love If you don't mind, I'll ask you to reserve that question for Representative Wilkins at the end when he closes. That's okay. Mr. Chairman, thank you. All right. Thank you. But you ask it very politely. No. Yeah. I don't see any other questions, so thank you, Mr. Bradford, Mr. Rand, for being here. Mr. Wilkins, you can keep your seat,
go to the end of the table, but if there's any
other – Representative Bush Wilkins, yeah. If there's any other questions for members of the committee, we'll have those now. Members of the audience, thank you for offering your input and testifying. If there's any other questions for Representative Butch Wilkins, we'll take them now. Otherwise, we'll entertain a motion. But any questions for Representative Butch Wilkins? Okay. Would you like to close? My name is true. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. You didn't recognize me. I
didn't expect you to take my advice. It doesn't happen a lot.
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
54:08
Representative Love, you're recognized. Of course I would take your advice. But Representative Wilkins, as you know, I respect you a lot, but I'm kind of perplexed by this because if women are not, if women don't plan on, you know, childbirth putting their health at risk, And then when it does, when the issue occurs, and we're saying that if we're taking that option away of purchasing insurance,
even with our own private money, to ensure the health and the safety of their life, then if we're taking that option away I'm just trying to see where you're coming from with this bill because we shouldn't take that option away of women I mean we're not talking about elective abortions here we're talking about
when their life is at risk or the child's life
so let me have some conversation
with me about that thank you very polite young man But that is actually included here. The life of the mother, rape, and incest is included. They can have an abortion for that. That is exceptions to this bill. And I've got to go back to there is a certain amount of personal responsibility here. And what we do, and someone said that, you know, it wouldn't be allowed to spend taxpayer money on this,
and why did the Affordable Health Care Act offer the states the option of opting out if they didn't want to allow that? And 18 states have already done this. And I know they said a challenge in Kansas. I wasn't aware of that. I think that's over the way the bill is written. It's one specific line is what I think. I haven't looked at that. But the whole thing to me is not whether or not a person can have an abortion. It's who pays for the abortion.
Thank you, Representative Love. All right. Thank you, Representative Love. Members, we can have a little bit more discussion after the motion if you like, But at this time, I'm going to go ahead and entertain and ask what the will of the committee is. I believe, Representative Wardlaw, you requested to make a motion. Yes, sir. I want to make a motion. Do pass. Do pass as amended. Okay. Thank you, Representative Wardlaw. Is there any discussion on the motion? All right. Any questions? Everybody know what they're voting for? Okay. The motion by Representative Wardlaw is do pass as amended.
All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? No. okay the eyes have it bill passes okay do I see two hands two hands okay we'll have a roll call members I'm going to go ahead and read just in case you haven't attended any interim committee in which insurance exchanges have been discussed I'm going to read the rules that govern roll call procedures this is in our House Committee rules let's see here it looks like rule 29 when a roll call is
required the role will be called by seniority with the vice chairperson being called next to last and the chairperson being called last for a member's vote to be counted and recorded he or she must vote yes or no or present during a roll call vote when a member's name has been called twice he or she does not respond or when a member passes they will not be allowed to vote at a later time on the current issue before the committee in other words vote when your name is called or you missed your chance and
if you want to miss your chance you can that being said we'll move into the roll call mr. price would
Speaker 193
58:06
you begin the call please representative word representative butch
Speaker 194
58:12
Wilkins representative Perry representative Stephanie Malone representative Malone representative Hank Wilkins representative Hank Wilkins
to ask you to clarify
was that a no
Speaker 194
58:51
vote or a pass oh okay I'm sorry representative letting representative love representative link representative Harris representative Ward law representative hammer Representative Hammer, Representative Branscombe, Representative Branscombe, Representative
David Meeks, Representative Mayberry, Representative Overby, I'm sorry I couldn't Representative Ritchie, Representative Womack, Representative Ferguson, Vice Chairman Murdoch,
Chairman Burroughs. a vote of 10 to 7 representative Wilkins your bill failed thank you I
believe it will stay on the calendar go back on the calendar so it'll be on the calendar for Thursday if you choose to run it again so any other business to come before the
committee. If not, we'll stand adjourned until Thursday at 10 a.m. Thank you.
Agenda
HB1100
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative John Burris Chair
Unverified
Representative Butch Wilkins Chair
Unverified
Speaker 15
Representative Jeff Wardlaw
Unverified
Representative Greg Leding
Unverified
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
Speaker 35
Speaker 41
Representative Fredrick J. Love
Unverified
Speaker 59
Speaker 45
Speaker 62
Speaker 47
Speaker 70
Speaker 73
Speaker 79
Nancy Emmons
Unverified
Speaker 92
Speaker 99
Victoria Lee
Unverified
Speaker 103
Speaker 104
Speaker 101
Speaker 114
Speaker 119
Speaker 121
Speaker 123
Speaker 130
Speaker 134
Speaker 137
Speaker 149
Speaker 144
Speaker 148
Speaker 141
Speaker 164
Speaker 165
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
Speaker 113
Speaker 176
Speaker 169
Speaker 51
Speaker 193
Speaker 194
Speaker 195
Speaker 34