Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Review committee is now in session and first order a business will be to consider the minutes for april twenty second and twenty third and do I have a motion of emotion in second and the second all the favorite they are all the policy none motion passes the next the item for consideration is up on the agenda is the discussion of the plastic county detention center in the netflix document series unlocked a jail experiment in I will mention that all bar witnesses are here voluntarily and we will be taken sworn testimony and their first witness I believe will be a. Mister eric higgins air kiggins. Sheriff higgins. Areas. Yeah. The. Ladies and gentlemen I will clear the room. If I have any more outbursts like that. This is not a pep rally and I have enough legal officials here that will remove the room if I hear it have any more outburst. Thank you sure piggins if you'll stand raise right hand. Do you some is where the test on your about to give she'll be the truth the whole truth nothing but true so help you got. Ads i'll take your seat state your name please and who's the gentleman nerves to you. The. Well mr griffin were not this not a criminal proceedings and typically I do not allow anybody to come to the table other than the witnesses so if you return to the. Yeah. Long as perhaps long as behind that little wall right there respond in in in the mister it's I never have anybody come to the table with our witnesses because we want the answers to be theirs and if the sheriff chooses not to answer the question then that's his choice. Already start taking testimony. And sure figures if you would please turn your microphone on there there you go so I guess first off so we have a better foundation of what the documents series about can you give us the reader's died just version of what you're interested in what the documents series was was meant to be for well for someone names iraq higgins by scanning sure if I want to give you the background of this I would like to share for twenty nineteen when I ran for sure I ran on put pleading a a reintry program into our detention facility to address recitivism in our state and plastic county. In may of twenty nineteen I started the rental program that it's been continually going on since then and part of that program is pulling people who volunteer to be in the rain to program we put him into one unit to create a community to create a culture of of super support and we have been doing that since twenty nineteen and that program is successful we have any recipients and rate of around five percent we've had several hundred dollars through our program and we have a community there now if i'm going to address the entire facility to make the facility safer. Because only point out our rental unit is a safest unit in the facility. And when you look at a detention facility of twelve hundred and ten with a population ranging around thirteen hundred or better. We have things that go on in the jail that some people may not realize we have. Fights that go on we have. No people try to bring contraband into any of our facilities in and a point I want to make about this facility the place accounting the change of facility was built in nineteen ninety four it is a direct supervision facility and we're one of approximately a total of three facilities in the state of arkansas that's direct supervision where the deputy is in the unit with the things. Are the rest of the counting facilities the rest of state prisons are indirect supervision where the deputy or the jailer is outside the unit monitoring by cameras monitoring through windows with that directly in there they will purita go into head counts in those kind of things so there is a difference between our facility and other facilities we do have two units in our in the in the county jail from the old jail that we still use those two units are indirect supervision it's our a and b unit they have each one has two sides with forty beds on each side the departies is in the middle in a separate room but is able to monitor by cameras or through glass. Also want to point out those two units. Don't have doors on those units they don't have doors and they haven't had doors in higher long because of jail standards there's no bathroom inside those units in the individual unit. So the what we looked at when we're talking about the the series of what we did in the facility oh one we have a facility where there aren't doors. Two we have our facilities direct supervision. We have two that are indirect supervision place scanning service office we struggle with filling positions right now have sixty one vacancies in the detention center and we struggle to feel those positions and as I look at other facilities that are indirect supervisions one of the things I looked at was can't transform this facility two a indirect supervision facility moving the deputy out of the unit and having a monitor through cameras. And what goes on in a facility. Now wish we had enough cameras to cover every aspect of the attention facility during my ten year week installed over two hundred and fifty cameras into the tension center we have taken several steps into making the facility safer when I took offers detainees get pop the locks in get out of the individual sales and then going on for some time. Thanks to petitioning the corn court in receiving the funding we were able to replace all the locks in the facility and replace the control system this is over three million dollar project to update the facility. So we've been moving forward with updating the facility when I evaluate a that attention center looking at three fault one is the facility as secure it is was the technology in the facility. Two the staffing which raining do they receive our training staff to meet jail standards had to do forty hours of training we do eight weeks of training to help these are the jailers are detect our deputies to become better employees to be able to perform the job that we call them to do. In a third areas looking at the tanes themselves. They are part of the facility we are responsible for them we response before their care will responsible to be a a realitating facility. Eighty percent of the people who are booked in the county jail are released to our community in so we must take action I took action. To ensure that we have a reentry program to help those who are booked into our facility to come out and be better individuals so those are the steps we were actually going through a state prisons provide some rentary program so they have some good programs out there I just don't believe you get a way to somebody spend fifteen years in prison before you try to help them to become acclimated into our community. And so as we look at trying to make a safer facility. I have to look at the teenees themselves. And how can I help them to move forward how can I help them to take on additional responsibility for their actions and understanding their community. The reentry program it took time to be able to adjust increase that community where you have mentors in the facility who are detainees and you have people coming in and teaching classes in there and we have a community. And it had took a little bit to to for this to come into full effect will not everyone in the book into the the county jail will volunteer to be a part of our reentry program nor will they qualify to be a part of the reinstruction program so how do I transform the entire facility to make it safer. You take a unit that represents the place accounting detention facility. And any given time we will have over fifty individuals who are charged with murder. Will have a hundred and sixty or so individuals charge when aggregator salt will have drug charges and and others. So if i'm going to make a transformation then I have to take a typical unit. And in that seek netflix or lucky eight I didn't reach out to any production company or or anyone else for this. A lucky eight production company reached out to me they were aware of our reentry program they were aware that we were doing something different that we're having a positive impact on our facility and on the community and so we discussed what my next steps were in what I was going to do. N we discuss having them to come in and bring additional cameras and to record that some of the things that we were not with our cameras we're probably not going to be aware of. It was a learning experience what we learned is that. People will step up. And and will become a community regardless of their charges. That you can treat a safer facility. We didn't learn that because of their cameras that they were certain ways that they were making tat too ink that we were not aware of. We also learn that we need to do a better job of checking the action packer later to ensure we find contraband but we've done a lot to try to address that we we have used recovery act money thanks for the corn court that we have body scanners in their facility we have mattress scanners we try to the eliminate as much contraband as it's possible in the facility but we have to address the behavior in the facility we have to address the individuals in the facility and and help them to take ownership because the reality of it is weekend that. We can't just use a heavy stick. You can't do it in the policing on the street and you can't do it in the facility. You have to motivate people you have to provide something positive for them the unit is human with this documentary took place. The doors are still unlocked. Well this unit is a second safest unit in the facility it was a second safest unit during the filming in it still is next two hour reinjury unit the only difference i've done i've put the department back into the unit the reason I put the deputy back into the unit instead of moving forward with indirect supervision is because of the tanies warner the deputy in the union at night for safety purposes but to answer questions why the key asked doesn't work why I can't make these phone calls what's going on with my case they neither they want at the depot in the unit as a resource to them okay thank you sure that pretty much gives us a decent foundation of the purpose behind the document. When you're talking about other programs to the current in other states there's other you know when you look outside the country there's other programs that they try to help me individuals you know when you look at people complain about sometimes people complain about the federal system prison systems where it's more humane treatment or perceived to be more humane treatment of of individuals in the facility so I was there I looked at personal experience. Oh context i've had a with criminal justice system at thirty years and law force an experience my experience working with individuals whether on the street or in a detention setting so any when you said models of outside of the country did that include places like el salvador nicaragua then as well as i'm I want to say this. You know I went when I was invited here. I reached out and asked with a specific questions would be acid. And I was told there were no specific questions but there appears to be specific questions and their questions I watched a series three times and that's where my questions are coming from. So again if you want an estimated provider some documentation we could have tried to provide additional I just thought maybe that you could provide that while you're sitting there so i'll go hidden go to my coach air center bright thank you mister chair thank you sir for being here I know we don't necessarily always like to have meetings just to have meetings and so II kind of wrote down some outcomes that I would like to see from this from this meeting less has learned just eat you briefly touched on a few of those appreciate that any rules and standards laws that were maybe brands bent are broken to try to accomplish your objectives that maybe we need to look at as it as a body. And then what steps forward to ensure the protection the safety and integrity of our of our system of our prison system and so I i've got a list of questions i'll try to unreligious more trying to understand the premise of like the twenty three and one rule and it was it was. A premise that the series used to make sure that maybe the audience understood that these are not just your low level criminals these are potentially violent potentially gang related that that was the impression maybe I got what other reason the to ensure somebody's locked up for twenty three hours and allowed one hour of free time and so I guess my question is can you elaborate on on why at the twenty three hour one in it does each part still follow the twenty three one even though the doors are open to other parts require a twenty three and one rule and then works what process to your office used to classify the mates to insure that there's no outbreaker or riot inside the chipot so that thank you first of all the twenty three in one. Comes from a sumsome disparis we do on the facility but during the pandemink you are. Operating with separating people there six feet separation the number of people we have in there facility only being able to allow certain number of detainees out at the time that was going on during the the pandemic but even after that when you have a staffing level with sixty something vacancies there's times when we have to have a link doors open when we have two units there connected in one department working two units into operating there we have to limit the number of people we pull out of a unit and when you have forty to eighty individuals in the unit my time you go through everyone trying to get them out and having a reasonable number of people out it ends up being about twenty three and one there are dispatheries they take place in the attention facility. Where we may put a unit on lock down because of because of behavior we are a young agency meaning there even though the sheriff's office been in existence for two hundred years our average employees maybe have two to three years and experience most people get in law enforcement do not want to work in a jail setting. And we find that with our own contract medical team and even the medical fashion didn't want to be in the jail when you look at your commercially team they don't want to be mostly don't want to be in a in a jail setting so it's a struggle to try to feel these vacancies and so that that's that is a factor the number of of detainees are excuse me that the number of deputies we have as well. Is it as far as classifying we have a classifying unit and everyone who's booked in they look at their sheet look at their history and determine where they can where they can be in the facility some people have mental health issues in your we've tried to address those issues we tried to increase the they have four minute help professionals in the facility this twelve hundred ten bad facility averaging thirteen hundred into transient population we booked in fourteen thousand people last year into our facility. So we've tried to put it in the corn court for recovery act funds and for general funds to increase our middlehealth services to try to address the population unfortunately we were unable to get that was funds for that so we tried to the best we can to to isolate nor to separate if people having a fights with each other will separate them and they have a history unless they they agree that they can be in the unit together. When we look at separation because of charges if the prosecutor's office or the arresting agency will know the fire said they have people on the same case and they want to separate it we will separate them at their point if they don't notify us then we won't do that because just reality of investigation and law forces that it may be a case where they're working the two individuals against each other and then you they want someone to testify against the other so they may want them in the same unit so we don't make that decision on our own to separate people who are on the same charges unless we're notify a body resing agency or the prosecutor's office in case they're just just to wrap rap up the classification so if you have somebody awaiting trial presencing post and seen that that piece doesn't matter as much as maybe the level of violence that that sort of may not be accused of educated over it's the behavior in the facility I mean we don't just make some of the the most compliant are detainees will be the ones charge would murder until it's not necessary that the charge that brings them into the facilities to behavior in the facility we don't want okay yeah I appreciate that thank you mister. Mr wooten you recognize. Thank you mister chairman sure for you. They may qualify my questions before. Ask them but up. I'm former trooper former with state police sargeon. And i've been involved in comments and tucker under a different situation so and understand what you're facing. My question is goes back to the one chairman as concerning who contacted who. You say you didn't but did anyone in your argumentation having a contact with lucky a our netflix prior to their contacting your agency. No sir. They and their head help how did do you know how they belonged. That become ebay and contacted. Manching they did their own research i've been contacted by other production companies the cap show there's companies that they do a show of recording people coming into intake in a jail setting so. That's not uncommon for production companies reach out their doing cap shells or long fortunate shelves to to reach out to police agencies like saving contacted by some before and i've said no so you said that you had been contacted by the other product should come yes the offer says yes what what made this different what would make this different was II told him that interested in doing a show something i'm i'm interested in what what i'm doing to transform the facility something I can continue something that goes beyond a a moment in time of six weeks in time and eight unit is still operating in the door to still unlocked where we're still moving forward so this was something that was recording what we were planning on doing how do we transform the entire facility to make it safer for the detainees make it safer for the the deputy that that work there. In in so that was my interest is is moving forward and I want it if we're going to record something if we're going to show something my interest was two part. Humanizing people who are in jail. And in two to shell that people will rise up to our expectations. And these individuals they they stepped up. And in in there was conflict in implements understand also there what you see in in the eight week or eight episodes approx me forty three minutes of peace represents eight weeks. And so there's a lot of things that you you don't see you don't see the shake down so you don't see the the the team gonna in in in search and the facility you don't see the number of people that we remove like we would any other unit for behavior there's a lot of other things going on in there. So the the purpose and I think we accomplish that you have AAA tv crew asked me was this a risk having them in here. And I told yes it was but it's also a risk when I have the news media come into my facility or to the counties facility. And and and whether it's looking at the locks in the facility where there is talking to them about a re entry program or anything else that we're doing annual control what they produce. And in a lot of times it's it's three minutes of me talking in something else. You are I do recall one channel coming in talking about the talking about middle health. In my whole point was that we don't have the middle health services that we need in the facility but the story was that we got the additional middle health uh funding. And we did not. So animal control with with immediate us. No II wanted to accomplish it and the two things that I mentioned to you. Humanising the people in our facility. And showing that people will rise up. Only takes about six weeks for their transformation to to happen in the facility that's been our experience in our reentry program that we've been doing in the facility since twenty nineteen they have been involved in through volunteer services since twenty fifteen. See I think I think that's the reason that i'm asking the questions related to the media being involved because we came asked a wii were involved in this with you we have so many six thousand are so produced news maybe maybe more I don't know that then in our in our penitentiary and our president system. And weekend week do not control in that to me that's all the reason more or not that on me. And and certainly well you you can left about it but to me it creates that situation or is glorifying criminals and you had I feel like that do you were you agree with this that you have to protect areas one is to protect the journal person from the criminal element and to once there and course already in your facility you have the responsibility to protect them so it's a dual road is enough and I agree with that and also want to point out that the majority of people in my facility are not convicted I do have a responsibility for them I also have a responsibility to prevent crime. And in preventing crime in our community in so part of permitting crime in our community yes it's patrolling is making the rest is working with our use so they don't get involved in the criminal justice system in is also working with the individuals in this system already and trying to give them the tools and resources they knee so when they come out they will not really fin increase other victims in our community so part of one out and I do includes that in the reason I was land things though sometimes you you're right when the media's company and this it's a question is the question where they want to do an interview with them or not so it's it's a risk where i'll take and I agree with you on that next question by name is german state prisoners were a state prisoners who had been convicted used. In this program. I would have to go back and look at the notes I think some of them have been were convicted or. They may have had additional they may have a conviction in additional charge on the while they were in there so but up but i'd have to go back and check to see if any of them were convicted. During banana I don't think we had anyone. Uh. In the facility so I can't. Answer that question without without the information but i'm willing to go back and look at and give you specific on I would appreciate they have nothing to committee would be interested in knowing the number of state prisoners that were in balance and were they involved within the standard agreement that we have with the county health to the whole prisoners for this day but once they're convicted if they are state prisoner they they are aware to the state. And so. Do you agree that they should be used or should not be you I understand your direction you're going I will say that while they're here and I am responsible for them yes. I don't again i'm I am I kept the check my numbers but I don't think we had any that were convicted during this period of time were just on state prisoners they may have been unpoll and in the facility and additional charges but again I do not know I will have to go back in and look at those numbers do you use any murders right in the program they are argumentary the answer is two people signed released to be in there that were charged with murder. There's one individual who had according to our records the prior to this in in december I believe it was the person came into our facility on on the one set of charges and then another agency put additional charters on them one of the charges list it was read the speed later that we got from the court listed that charge. With a bond I believe of fifty thousand dollars into the next day we received a second speed letter from that same court that did not include the rate charge and the bone was struck to a hundred thousand dollars so according to our records that when we proceed is at the rate charge was dropped and so that was a few months prior to the person being placed in this unit thank you mister chairman thank you yes thank you mister wouldn't end up so sheriff you'd agree that placie county receives a substantial amount of money from the state board detention of prison is that correct i'm i'm aware that the state pays amount per detainee per day yes and to withhold any of those funds would have a detrimental effect on the on your operation correct. You know it costs to run an attention facility so my understand is that that's just a yes or no answer if it would definitely impact our facility okay thank you representative ray recognized thank this chairman right here in friday share sorry sorry right that's okay I appreciate you being here and I appreciate all the interactions that we've had as you know I represent a good portion of northern palaski county and and as when this news came out about this netflix series I started getting a lot of questions from constituents questions and I wasn't able to answer and so some of these questions that I have some of them are mine and some of them i'm relaying on behalf of constituents that i've also encouraged to contact your office. Part of what I want to understand is how we got to the point where the decision was made to televise these efforts that you've made in the jail so I know you you mentioned that you were approached by lucky a or a netflix or whoever you did not approach sound but and II read in the paper you said you didn't have an a legal obligation to contact the judge or anybody else but did you contact the county judge about this about the televising of this series before it happened. No I contacted the county attorney. Can I actually county attorney do I have the authority to allow this crew to come in in film within the facility. And he said yes you do have the authority you control jail you can let people in you can learn amount you can shut the jail down if you look at you see fit yes you have the authority to do that okay i'm i'm just a little bit confused on on your answer because the the dim gas story from march sixteenth sad. Oh sorry not march sixteenth. The one from march nineteenth said county judge very high the county's top administrative officials said in a statement that she rekiggins in twenty twenty one presented the idea of having a crew from lucky eight film inside the plastic county jail that the deal was never finalized after hide and a county attorney raised concerns so that the paper reported that that meeting with the attorney raise concerns you said that the attorney basically told you you had a green light the attorney told me I had the authority to do that now the attorney restaurant found i'm sure to be rehard and talk to him about there. They would draft it up a possible contracts if we wanted to do that. And we we decided to move forward after a couple of years we move forward with or maybe a year to move forward with the. With a video typing of the unit. Okay so you were relying on the legal advice of the county attorney it sounds like or someone else were counting okay did you communicate your intention to do these with any of the members of the corn core either individually or collectively. No I did not. I'm good I had been in contact with court of other things that we do in the facility and of course I always provide them opportunity come to the corn come to the county jail see what we do toward the facility and so it's on their invitation is always been open to them to see what we are are doing in our facility. Given that the corn corps fund your budget and has allocated significant resources to help you do many other things that you want to accomplish in the jail I mean do you feel like it would have been prudent to. Give them some sort of heads up or. Visit with them about your decision to do this. I feel that I have reached out of the corn court on a number of occasions about what we do in our facility. Are the corn court has I do not have support a full comport for a reintrict program and do not have support of the corn court to increase middle health services in the facility so I do try to reach out to them and let them know what we're doing. But but not about the filming specifically about that but about that we're trying the transform the facility change what we're doing in the the county deal one thing that I was a little bit curious about in the. And most of the most of what I know about this is either what I watched in the document series or what I read in the paper so I do have a lot of questions about it in the march. Sixteenth story it says that your office agreed not to disclose participation in the production prior to the air. But what can you explain why is an elected official as somebody who's responsibility it is to lead and communicate on the operations of your office why would you voluntarily. Give up your ability to communicate about what you're doing what I communicated to them also was there if anyone asked herself for why anything like that I would release the information so they would not be protected and prior to even filming being done we were getting for a request about about the production. So the information was out because we were receiving the foy request a prior to even even doing any any family. Then that was communicated to them that the vast information will be will be given. Okay alright so they gave you the ability to talk about it you just chose to okay I want to ask you a few questions about the the jail experiment itself uhm. You you mentioned some of the the influences that you that helped you arrive at this idea or were there any specific criminologist or sociologists that advised you on this particular jail experiment. You know. I would tell you that. Dealing with. Um. The criminal justice system. For over thirty years. Having implemented a re entry program. In the facility and and I want to point out I didn't ask the corn court to implement my reintrict program. I did what I would I knew was the right thing to do from working with others who worked with people coming out of jail and also listening to people who are incarcerated when I started the reinjury program I started with the ladies and our facility why because the ladies I had come in contact with who are the other reaching program the excess project we knew that they weren't enough facilities enough programs for women coming out of jail and so we started with the ladies in our program and then we expand it and so it is real life experience. In what we're doing what we have done in this gel setting. In the success of what we've done. And that was used real life experiences what I use to take the next step to try to create a safer entire safer facility. Okay so you see you relied on your own experiences to my experience in in in those who were in the criminal justice system who worked in rentering understanding their behavior understanding the honor in iraq with with individuals but my experience is as a police after my experience as an executive leader of a law enforcement agency in my education in in in dealing with human services and leadership and in counseling so I use those experiences who try to implement a program just like when I started with the rental program we start the pilot program to graduate move forward and II look at this as the same way and in the intent is is that we have success in what we're doing and we're playing out expanding in into other parts the jail in a week week before the the pandemic starter we were doing a tear system. Based on behavior. The tennis head can move to a certain unit they had a larger tv in. They could purchase certain things on commercial. And what we found out was we didn't have enough opportunity units because the detainees would respond to parts of the things they would keep their their unit clean they wouldn't fight the windbring and contraband they're behavior change based on on the carrot so the speed. In so we use those experiences actual live experiences working with a people in this facility to take the next step in to move forward and make an positive changes. In our facility so as your as you're conducting the jail experiment how how do you track the outcomes to determine whether it's a success or not what ruberts do you use so we track the number of incidents in each of our units whether it's fights. With other detainees whether it's not following the directions of the depoties of conflicts with the departies of the contrary in the in the unit and so we're we're tracking they are tracking the same of the union of the unit itself and we we have data on all our units what about I mean I presume the goal is the long term goal is to reduce your versitivism to keep people from reoffending once they've been released and that's that's mainly I mean I know it's easy to keep track of what happens. In the jail in terms of number of incidents and that sort of thing but i'm thinking long range if if this is truly an experiment in recitivism reduction how are you tracking. These these folks once they leave your custom so we we track the individuals where leaving ever facility entry unit we track whether they've been the rest again across the nation we tracked reares whether it's you didn't go to you a pro officer in the warm was the should be arrest you forgot to go to court if you are rested for that we also track within that they're going back to prison. So that the same system that we used to to find people we use that to just as exchange will use those systems to track individuals who who leave our facility which we know where they go did they go but some of you believe in our reentry program you the goal is that they're better person wherever they go they go the state prison they go the federal prison I want them to be compliant in inform the rules of that facility so we track whether someone goes to the federal prison or whether they go to a state prison or a transitional house where were they go we we are in communication we are also puritally checking the system see if there's been a a rearrest and have any of the participants in the in the netflix series have they reoffended since it had any of them refended they've been released so we may have had one of those but but that the me explain something I think there's a disconnect here. Um i'm trying to make a safer facility today. Regardless of where they go. I may have some individuals coming out of eight unit or coming coming out as I tracked the people in our reintry program there were citizen rate we tracked the entire facilities resident as a brain which is about thirty four percent for the entire facility but for our reentry program I missed about five percent. What but i'm also trying to make a safer facility. Sure every day it's also advice on so I just want i'm that tracking. Those individuals re citizens what i'm tracking is is this facility is this unit safe or safer for the deputy is it safer for the detainee in that unit. And so in bank create that community in that unit now over time when when we expand we may look at that will be tracked recitalism for the facility overall and also understanding that that these individuals when people in in our in our jail they may start out in one unit and be moved to another the image as we moved out of each unit went into other units. So I can only the practical is what's going on in in that unit you know if I want to go the direction you're going to have to track just just those individuals that actually left our facility and were released. Well II think if you're if you're conducting an actual experiment and not just a reality tv show I think it's important to document all of you know where these folks go afterwards and what happens and we sort of lost over the the when I asked the question about whether someone had reoffended their there is at least one that was covered by a local new station for there was a sooner almost as soon as he was released was reoffended for I believe it was selling math that he was obtaining from mexico so I can come in on that that individual was released to a transitional house in florida. An internet person went to florida and II think spent several months in the transitional house and then was released and in that arrested correct afterward and then then it's also my understanding that the connection with it and I don't have a details of there but what I understand from reading or watching the news is that the family also they don't think it was a he was rearrested but didn't have anything to do with with the cartel or a mexican drugs from mexico I don't know that the truth in in that but I just want to point out that person did go to another state and go through transitional facility and this is going to happen not everybody to come and other prison with with with programming is going to be successful that's that's totally fair if one of the long term goals is reducing receipt of as i'm one thing that I was struck by as I watched the series was the inclusion of one individual that's that's in jail for a life sentence what why maybe you explain this earlier when you talked about you want them to behave well while in jail but if the goal is to keep someone from reoffending once they're released why not include someone who we know is going to be released as opposed to someone who has a life stands. Again. Moving forward. We have a re entry program another right is going to want to be in the rentary program. This phase is about a safer facility. And because we have so many people charge with murder and aggravated assault in battery in this facility. They're spread out throughout all our units. And so the purpose that that we engaged in this can I create a safer facility can I create a safer unit with a typical population not a sterilized population with a typical population which would include somebody charge with murder so many charge would aggravate itself again member it would include somebody who's a little bit older to include a younger person it would include people who are involved in different games that are but being in the same unit best the population of the place accounting regional detention facility and if i'm going to address the safety the entire facility I can't take a stereo unit and see if is it if it's effective I know I can take a sterile unit and and and make it effective but can I take a a typical unit was animal habit the bed space for for the number of of people that I need to hold in this facility is a twelve hundred and tnb facility the reality of that I need about seven hundred more I mean you can talk to any law unfortunately that makes a resimplesit county and then we have a turn people away at the door because we don't have enough bad space and you and I have talked about the overcrowding issue before so that that the purpose of this part of what we do because there's several pieces in an into into what we're doing at the sheriff's office we're addressing recitivism. What we're working with with with youth in our community we're making sure we're policing our community well we're trying to bring resources to people in the community but also their community called the the tension center. How do I create in what steps have add in taking to change the dna of our facility change the expectation in this facility changed it one unit at a time a typical unit was yes I have some money in there most of them they are probably gonna go to prison. But while they are there. In this jail I need to make it as safe as possible and you only want you gonna make as safe as possible you you can't. You can't use brooke force. To make people to be compliant in the jail city deputies require jailers require cooperation from the detainees is the same way you police the street you require cooperation from your community and in a jail the community are these attainees in so it's convincing them. That they can have a positive impact. On their community list when you come into it to jail sending when you can have a detainee coming in here there is that the issue of of safety there's a do I trust the people around me does anybody care about my will be. And in and you have to treat a culture credit and environment where yes we do care because I do care because I am responsible for them as plastic and issue of yes I have responsible for them in that facility in trying to make it a safe as possible and II can appreciate your your responsibility there the individual that I was referencing that that was in for life is the the individual that went and murdered another person at c h as I events sure would a couple years ago and it makes me wonder if you gave any consideration to how that would impact the families of the victims of these inmates when they're seen on tv in you know this particular individual smiling and shooting a basketball now did you give any consideration to how the victims II families are the victims would feel so years on television and I did take their consideration. You know it is it's unfortunate. It is is it is a terrible thing for someone to to lose a love and through through violence. But it is as terrible but you in the suspect of the person convicted also has family to. And they're concerned about how they are being treated in the facility in in it is always going to be a rub in long fortune there's always going to be this rub beat between the family of a victim and in the family or the suspect. In how they're being treated I guess I guess I can see some idea on the I just want to make a comment about the video I mean then when the the TV stations show people being arrested and walking to and fro there also seeing them and in that manner as well and and I know that as traumatic as well we're going out of the cure i'm sorry have to move on and represent a break put you back in the current attorneys and doctor series itself so sharp were there any inmates charged with a a crimes in this document series. No we we had it in it in in an in our jail sitting just like in state prisons. They are things that happen their fight so the current there's violation of policies there's the things that happen in his internal disciplines that take place. And so we did in this unit and it was important that emphasis to are a staff that we will conduct the same dispanaries that we'd would in any other unit which may include removing that person from the unit it may include losing commerce area or or other things so we did those we have one individual that we filed charges on on a drug that was what we thought that I think a test department for for cocking but further tests revealed that it was actually their prescription medication that they had crushed and so we we had those charges dropped on that individual so there were no criminal charges filed against anyone in that in that unit but we did the same disciplinary that we would do for the same violations in any other unit no charges for the the two beatings that took place in a series or the alcohol disparate actions were taken on those in internal discipline there's were taken on the those individuals and that have to go back and look at the specific discipline now general we have a a fighter so we may remove the person from the unit and you know some of the well I just leave it at that that we we provided dismanary according to our policies with the normal dispense actions will be taken based on the level of of action. If it's a serious assault we may do a a criminal charge send her just thank very much mister chair and thank you for allowing me to ask a question is the non member of this committee share figurings welcome thank you is always good to see you one of the things that is is troubling to me is the differences and how we view thanks and I want the members of the clergy who are here to data please stand. Because I think it's important for folks to understand that various members of the community view this in very different ways. They are here because they support what she refugees has done I thank you also very much being here. Invest majority of these individuals I represent. And they are looking for someone to provide. Human treatment for people who have been treated in hume mainly and that's at that root of so much of what we're dealing with today. When I think of the thirty four percent receipt of his rate as compared to what at the state level she repeated about forty six forty forty six to forty eight cell the reservism rate at the palask county jail is substantially lower anytime we can reduce that recitivism rate we have done something right in at the end of the day we've got to remember that this is watch deal jail. Perfect people don't go to jail. The. Perfect people don't murder. A committee stop that's why they're in what jail. Now I am probably the only person in america that is not seeing the show and don't want to because it's not something I look at but I do want to say that as the representative or as the senator for a lot of these folks in this wrong if it matters to them it has to matter to me and I think it out a matter to everybody in this wrong and then we are vealing this to different lenses. Reviewing this through different lenses and it's important that we respect the lenses to which we view this now how much. Of the cost of keeping a prisoner a state prisoner in jail does the state reimburse. I think it's forty two and forty four dollars a day and the total cost per day for keeping most prisoners round sixty seven seventy two thousand days so we're not really fully finding the individuals to home that we send to the jail decorate that's correct okay and. As we look as we go forward in this relationship between the state and the county the county is already dealing with this issue is it yes and i'm not sure what our outcome here is supposed to be but I would have been remissing i'd say and I had and i'd say it what I see it I thank you for what you're trying to do because as we make people more humane then perhaps just perhaps. They may act that way which you agree yes thank you thank you thank you my friend senator dismantled it's the last time i'm going to say it i'm a start having people remove the app to clear the entire audience i'll do that. It is not very funny either. Are it want you just go ahead and leave here you. Yes with the beard the gentleman with the glasses and a bit yes. Thank you. Okay center this manual recognized. Aren't thinking of chairman. First of may say that I mean I don't have an issue with programming and I don't have an issue with you trying to create a safer environment in your jail what I don't really understand is the fact that we needed a publicize that that you felt like we needed to have a tv show about it in then to call something the experiment that is not a control environment that could never be an experiment. Because you would want to lean to a better outcome and I think in your answering I can pick up on some of that week we don't want answer questions about what happened was particular inmates because it doesn't reflect is maybe well as we would like but some of my questions go back to I don't want this to happen again I think it's an exploitation. Of your prisoners that you allowed a film crew to come in I mean I assume that they are signed waivers and it so it's my question did they all sign waivers and all of your staff yes. Would you not think it would be under dress if you're prisoner did they have a choice to sign a waiver. They did have a choice okay then the there are not tank true experiment poor from those that wanted to sign a waiver in those that didn't did everyone agree to sign a waver where there are some people on each block that didn't want to participate that. Didn't sign a way of removed to another and again i'm watch the show so I don't know enough about it i'm like senator chesterfield I don't think that i'm interested in it. But did it had it had that go about how to that process exist. So those who were interested I had to sign away where they wanted to be and they knew there were going to be recorded so it's hard to experiment because it in and it's not it is you you've made a big deal about how this couldn't be attained population that you wouldn't picked and choose to go to be in it what already is because it was only those that were willing to be filled is that correct. Yes it was only those so it's not an experiment we could never get to real outcome and nothing was ever going to be measurable as far as your deputies and everyone else that was involved. They are sound waived at any of them not one sign waivers. They sand waivers who wanted to be. In the unit did you have anyone there we over that unit said you know what I don't want to be a part of this i'm not going to sign a wave so the way the our detention facility works are depressed or they work in certain units or engineering they move around. And so you don't work in the same unit where myself so the answer is that we have people who did that want to be a sign to the unit during the family and so we did not assign them to the unit during the family. Okay. I mean and I think that should tell you something you had prisoners you had deputies you had others that did not want to be a part of your experiments your publicized experiment. And yet you've you know you had others that wanted to at what and what compensate where they were the prisoners compensated for their face time and where your deputies compensate any additional dollars for their their work or the you know you utilizing their image. No so the only people out there that are benefiting from the use of these people's faces a few mere deputies work or is lucky. If you're talking about financially yes absolutely but we are benefiting the the sheriff's office has had benefitting from you can say it's not an experience experiment that we didn't learn enough sir I ask II just want to know who is benefiting financially from this whole thing with the exception of lucky eight productions or whatever it is is anyone else being benefiting financially. That's the question I don't want to go on another road so honestly answer the question as far as you know and I know it's a broad question what lucky eight did what next week's do I don't know whether but internally. Then then the answer is now so you allowed all these people to be exploited including your deputies in these prisoners receiving no compensation so a private company could go contract with netflix and have publicity make people don't create document series to make no money. They they create these document series and then promote its netflix because netflix is paying them much time to substantial amount of money to run the series and so. They're going to benefit greatly from your experiment because the reality is and I think you were doing in any ways in some way you didn't need the publicity to do what you're doing you said you already had the authority to do everything that you were doing is that correct. Yes okay so you already had the authority you'd already talk into talk to your legal council better that some of these policies have in place which again I applied the fact that you want to do some programming inside the jail system think that's a worthy thing to do I think we should be looking at every way we can and we should be doing a lot more at the county jail level I agree with that I just don't understand why in two thousand twenty one you know your appears and I think to share if it's probably your peer and I think these core important minimums are your peers to hate you know what we don't want to do this he said you know what i'm going to do at any way. Because you found that you had the authority but then. I guess this is what I don't understand and so no one finds out about this or that it's happened so there's a conversation in two thousand twenty one everything rolls along and if i'm reading the press right and everything else. Everybody's eyes were were open that it to the existed. Whenever the the promo started happening. What I don't get what so did you force the employees in the inmates and all these other people to sign non disclosures. No. Then how in the world. Is there such a secret. So no one else that no one else signed a disclosure non disclosure. No I mean the employees who want it to be a part of the film they signed but the rest of everybody else in the whole building. So the only people that signed a non disclosure of the people working in exploit. People were working with the production company you feel like they might have been course to filter fact at their employer you're their boss said you know what we have to have. Sorry we have to hear it when it would you not feel as though. I understand why he wouldn't want to answer the question to sir. Mr chairman market soap my final without being. We're anyway it's anyone who who are signed non disclosures to make this happen because again it was tight lived until there was a promo that went out who who signed on disclosures again like I said the beginning. I was not provided questions so that I could provide the answer so if you want to provide me with additional questions. And allow me the opportunity to answer those questions i'd be more than willing to to that that's a pretty basic question the junior I don't have the the street who distributed non disclosure agreements for the employees in the end makes the sign. The. I don't recall the process. But I can get you the information. I have feeling unknown where this is going for the rest of westmin and inside this can say like this. I think that's what's inappropriate I think people were taken advantage of I think that you were you were given warning to not do this by your peers in the corn court in the county judge no one was against your programming I don't believe no one was against what you're trying to do at least in trying to better the jail and I don't think it took a tv show to accomplish what you were trying to accomplish. And and I and I think the exploitation is real and I think you put people on a very bad situation and what I want to do as a legislator is make sure it can't happen again I don't want people that are imprisoned being exploited so that lucky eight productions can make whatever amount of money they're going to make. Because like I said you could have done this with her without a television crew watching is that correct. That's great okay. In on it won't want questions that were for things we want you mention that there were four year request prior to production even beginning that correct yes okay i'd like a copy of all of that to be submitted back to our legislative council for review I like to have at that information because again i'm I am stunned at something this big. Went without any disclosure whatsoever in it I can think of no other venue that there are film or anything shoots in the in the state of arkansas any no variety that people don't know what's happening in our talking about it in somehow probably because it was exploited people whether it be through the employees or the prisoners that you had there that weren't allowed to communicate what was happening and I think that was what's in proper but I think you've already said that you're not willing to answer the more questions thank you thank you center just make sure that you any member of your family are an employee at plasky county receive anything of value or any form of compensation from anyone associate with making of this document series or the promise of future compensation no. Okay so you know and looking back at my notes from the three times I watched the documents series you know I thought I made a comment in here probably the most intelligent comment was made by a seasoned criminal there randy j. And when he found out about the experiment he said you can't let a bunch of criminals run this place. And then he laughed and he said it ain't going to work. Now it's coming from one of those inmates that was in the document series so senator bright you're recognized thank you mister chair so currently in each part you've you said you've got to left it the way the show let it run is that correct. I'm sorry i'm right in the middle structure I channel who speaking and so repeat the question that I was currently in each part it you're relating it run as as basically the doors are open that the doors are open to depends inside the unit yes is is there any violation of jail standards with that approach. No I don't believe so so it would is it safe to say that the experiment west to remove the deputy from the room and let them handle their own affairs that the experiment part of it was to can I move to a indirect supervision unit like most jail settings where the deputy or the jail is not in the room of took me of continually with the other with the detainees there was him we move them from the outside install in still operate with cameras who monitor that were goes on in the unit so does that as that process in any way violate jail standards way most state prisons are right they're either indirect supervision we we when this jail was built it was built as a direct supervision in in the thought from understanding the thought was most prisons would go to direct supervision putting the the jail or or the the debt in the unit with the inmate but that's not how the rest of the jails are being built okay to it is is the experiment that it was a non sterile environment in the classifications or to allow mixed mixed offences in the room i'm concerned seeing your question i'm just wondering what the experiment is if we can do what what to show programming showed us what what was the experiment. Empowering people to make decisions and understand that they can have a positive impact on their community by their actions and recognizing going beyond just themselves but being concerned about the entire community and recognizing that their actions can positively or negatively impact their community okay so if if we're doing everything that's within jail standards was there any concern that a complaint a civil complaint would be filed against the jail due to lack of of guards in the room or lack of. Oversight jail standards as and require us to be a direct they indirect super buyers a union or direct supervisors units we are following the the jail standards in in what we do were still following the jail standards in you know no organization is is perfect but but we try to comply with the jail standards every day okay right thank you mister church there were three checks that were written by lucky eight productions. Totally eleven hundred dollars a piece one on was made out for cash and other two were made out to the tension centers so when legislative article shows up damage your place are they gonna be able to track or find word the funds from those cheques were yes. Where did it go president cash go so the arm and i'm not for me with the cash of that you have money going on individuals books in the unit to so we can do the phone calls in in in those things that wouldn't cost the county any loss of funds. So the phone call sets you opened up to the inmates was paid for by lucky eight yes. I'll get sold wine was one that checks written for cash. I'd have to go back and look at them some that no not aware that one was written for cash so it wasn't used about another set of twenty one each chrome wheels further for your county vehicle was it. The. So you don't know where the cash went. Yeah. Yeah. Okay well. And senator desert recognized. Thank you miss sure. I'm i'm over on this side I had a question about the contracts. So I heard your test money earlier about earn. Who approach to for the contract can you help me understand the length of time and how what's involved with the negotiations of a contract with netflix or productions companies. With your with your team and with i'll do respect. Ah. I'm a listen to my council. And I will ask you to submit any questions that you have. A former u ask me to be here I volunteer to be here. Prior to coming I asked whether any questions specific questions this body had from me you did that submit any questions. The. So I would ask this body. If you have a questions please submit them in our response to them i'm back on the s answer okay you're excused thanks for your attendance today and our next witness. The. Our next witness will be the honourable judge very high. He's not answering any more questions. We're not. Judge if you had the stand raise your right hand do some is where the testimony about the gift beat the treat the whole truth nothing but the truth you got thank you and please if you would take your seat down the macron state your name and position for the record. I'm very high and with platform county judge thanks sir judge for being here since your recognized. Thank you. Make you judge my last question was was originally intent for share of but it was related to you as well so I love your perspective I was going to ask about the contract in how long those things take but I wanted to get to your involvement with the contract and it from the previous testimony it stand like there wasn't much of a collaboration with user would you say that's accurate with the contract with with netflix and there there was an any collaboration or anything even spoken okay that is it typical for county contracts of this nature to not involve you or or your team. So I think the constitution judge if you were pull your mark phone up little closer to you please thank you that better. Sorry the category should in state law stipulates that no bill contract can be executed for any amount in county government except by the county judge. And so I thought II heard that the in this this was my question for the share of but maybe you can help me with your perspective. It sounds like two to three years of contract negotiations and communications for this program for this idea for this experiment we're going on but but your team wasn't involved to sign our for of of india for three years is that right. So is the county judge I was never included did know anything about it and so my team have get your referring to the county attorney isn't necessarily talking and be able about every contract negotiation or or legal matter that's going on with the county so is it possible that other negotiations or contracts could be going on without without your knowledge today and other facilities I hope not I appreciate thank you. The. And judge height did the the discussion of this experiment did was there any discussion with you or members here staff prior to annoying into the agreement with the production company. It did not with my immediate staff it's my understanding is is you guard have been stated here today that the county attorney I think a couple of years go or maybe a year and a half account well known be at least couple years ago we've given the contract review okay thank you judge representative rate thank you judge thank you for being here and for answering questions related to this. Can you can you tell me when you first learn about the the intent to fit but put this jail experiment into a television document series are have it filmed. II get a call from someone when apparently the first trailer was aired you know about two months ago I think okay I want to go back to and and I asked the sheriff this about the march the march sixteenth story now hold on I got three articles here. I think it was the march nineteenth story where they said in twenty twenty one the sheriff presented to the either you or the county attorney or a combination of the two of you this idea and there were there were concerns race was it was brought to you at that point is that right it was not it would the county attorney country contractor contract negotiations got normally come to me they go to the same department which includes the county attorney gotcha and so the county attorney express concerns to you II guess when i'm trying to figure out is the newspaper article said that the county attorney express concerns the the sheriff said that the county attorney basically gave him the green light to go ahead and that he he this was within his authority to do can you help clear up which of those accounts is is accurate or more accurate to win when this first trailer got aired and then do everybody for tension the county attorney told me that that there had been a contract submitted in that it was an end that he responded to the county share. Okay so it until also I guess that the the the canning sheriff and and i'm not a legal expert of an added attorney but that's understandable after eleven years this county judge can issue has the authority in the jail to run it as he as he chooses. At his authority it would be you know he answers people who electing just like the people you know I threw the people that like me as well as shale standards in doj. So that. And the problem for the county judge is not that the show was was was a tape to kept sea greeter any of those things the problem for the county joth we have a contract sure the contract illegally in i'm assuming that that's kind of gotta be resolved somehow yeah so you mention that and that was mentioned in the march nineteenth story as well that you you characterize the agreement or contract as illegal can you can you outline your reasoning for for calling it illegal soon illegal document because it wouldn't sign by the county church it is it is not a ballot contract okay the other question that I had I was I was going to pose to the sheriff but I guess i'll i'll post it to you one of the things that deeply concerns me about this production and I agree with what senator dismank said there's no reason that the sorry that the sheriff could not conduct whatever residentism program he has in place without it being the subject of a television series you know there's a reason that arkansas pbs didn't approach him and lucky eight productions did they opinion wanted to sensationalize and play up a lot of the negative aspects that we saw in the document series the drugs the violence the the weapons in the prison the the violence in the prison the alcohol production in the prison all of those things I worry about. For most of the people that watched this document series this is the first time they've ever been exposed to palaski county or perhaps even to the state of arkansas and I worry about the brand damage that our state sustains from the percept from this being the first perception of our state to other people the things that we are doing and the things that we are doing here in the legislature. Are whether people agree with them or not or aimed at making the state of better place to live work raise a family start of business and it in there's a reason that our state is now an inbound state for migration from other states and there is brand damage where the people want to admitted or not when something like this happens when hbo filmed gang wars in nineteen ninety four banging in a little rock that caused a perception of our state that I think still persists to this day are you please have you seen the document series and how do you feel about how it portrays our county and I stay I have that senator okay well that answers that thank you and judge can you walk us through the funding I think there is a sum of about sixty thousand dollars that was paid to the county in the county sent the check back can you can you walk us through. That scenario please so it's a problem for government counting to to credit a check to against it a contract that not an obligating contract there's there's no debit uh to credit against. Um and specifically the check was marked as a reimbursement. And. There was nothing in a day. The department said that they had no additional expense incur and so there was no charge to offset so the choice were the county judge was to accept it as a gift or donation or return it and and I felt to keep the lines cleaner we should return it thank you judge representative springer thank you mister chairman good afternoon and thank you for being here I just want to get some clarification what you testified to do that who you correctly to say that the sheriff repairs the authority to run the county GL AC c's fair the latter standard those current thank you all the old county elected officials are independent of one another like the city government where everybody's hired and works for the mayor thank you i'm just trying to make sure I understand and then you also say there though county sherve has the authority to enter in contracts as well is that correct you don't you didn't say that so the case of the use that well then is your understand did you say that the county share was working with the counter your attorney and working to enter into a contract that I usually there a couple years ago the car. The sheriff department of mutual specifically the chair with the share apartment submitted a contract i'm sure to purchasing in the as normal flow would be it went to the county attorney and county attorney marked it up and said this is just a bad agreement. Okay so so what footso what are we talking about and we talking about two years ago are we talking about the contract and involves the sleptic of why we're here today or you talk about some of the country are you are you talking about the contract the reason why we hear it today is that with you speaking of that's what i'm trying to get clarification for the contract understanding the contract we were here about today is a version of the contract that was rejected by the county attorney's office. Something like two years ago. Okay so is has was this an issue then there has been brought before the corn court and i'm trying to understand why is up while we discuss my car there was not proper in this particular setting and it was limits s was it discussed before the corn court if it was not properly the no corp corn courts don't approve contract although it will who approves the contract the county the ok you okay so the du have a discussion then would anyone or even the share about the contract no because it didn't get past the county attorney's office. It didn't get so I guess i'm complete sold the due app well let me ask this question did you have a discussion with the county attorney about the contract that was trying to get past the accounty attorney not not until just a couple months ago in the first trailer advertisement which put on tv and wind took so when it came up and everybody started asking questions county attorney said hey we saw this this proposal in the contract two years ago whatever the date was they they had an exact day that sure who and and they said that the contract was intolerable it it held them completely harmless it gave them complete creative control and and didn't didn't do anything to protect the county in such a in such a contract in in returned it. Um to the sheriff department with a you know here's you would have to respond all these red lines in this document for it to be considered so am I still back to my same question about the county attorney so how is it the end that I contract that started to almost two years ago and it was before you return the county you attorney to address their two say that you never receive that then a contract was in a room too so worries that is their county attorney you're today to answer the question they obsessed it appears that you are not able to answer the question because you are saying that it was between the county attorney and the sheriff right i'll contract come in to the county they usually come to the procurement or purchasing department. They look for generally an appropriation if it if it involves purchasing something you're buying some service to make sure that there's an appropriation to pay for that agreement then it goes to the controller's office to verify that that it is that is appropriate to the department it is i'm submitting in another work that it's within their area of a responsibility then it goes to the county attorney's office to be approved or or recommended for change or about or denied to to make that legal evaluation of an agreement or or a purchase or in a snat until it goes through those three gates that it come to my desk so up so I guess my point did a go through that process then it did in it stopped at the county attorney's office and the county attorney would have engaged the sheriff department with the questions or concerns they had and it's my understanding that when they did that they put the red lines were accepted and there was no further discussion I don't understand what you mean by red lines were accepted II guess i'm going lost because you've told me about the prices is in the countings attorney's office and there haven't been discussion is gone through the process purchasing all of it and it's in the counting attorney's office so how how what happened was that to that count his attorney's office I guess is that being made cleared to me because you are saying that it never got to you so you never through the contract to help whatever to place the stake in place so what i'm trying to understand what would how did the county attorney allow you to be left in the office in a nation to you at this what i'm not understanding please help me understand what role the county attorney had would respect to make insurer that the contract that to you but for approval and that approved custo. Have heard earlier testimony to say that the account are you attorney approved for it was taking place and now understand that it was not approval I just would like to have clarification on that that's why I asked the question is to whether or not the counter your attorney is here because you know to me you are saying that the county attorney is the person that had the less say so about the contract yet imagine i'm misunderstanding what you've just done survived ok would please help me. The county attorney is is a regular position of county government in the case of plasky county it's it is a position that the appointed or hired and then approved by the corn court and it is that person's responsibility to reactor respond or advise in all matters of county operation to make sure that they are within the law. So they are part of that process then the contract goes through to gain recommendation that it moved to the county judge's desk and for execution for to be signed. Um. Are we are we together so when it came to their office they were they were not an agreement they did that believe it was it was a good document they felt like that document was detrimental to county business and they are red lined you know just like you would take a highlighter and they redlined everything that they felt was inappropriate or record court shouldn't be agreed to and they returned it to the sheriff's office. Are you are we together so far so as I understand it in in the county turn is not here so i'm going to who is that person to name that person who was account i'm sorry mrperiod adam fogglemen so he returned it back to the sheriffs office and then what happened and is I understand that the second hand that he had a conversation with the share of his further not you know the sheriff could could do this show and the county attorney advised them you have control over what you do in the in the jail if you want to invite these people in and and do this show that's under your authority I do not advise it because you are you will do it without a contract. We are not going to execute a contract so you're going to have no no protection under a contract so there must afford a man tell you this are you saying this is second hand will he call me that okay i'll tell you what he said so that second hand information he told their to the sheriff in is what you decide is that if my understanding okay insult must have ogilman is not here today okay easy so we're gonna have to move on ok one last question is they still employed by the policy yesterday but he's not on your agenda mail i'm sorry you didn't invite it adding invite any of you off representative thank you for blessing into these are recognized thank you mister chairman and at this question really was intended for the share but maybe if you can answer fine I admire the fact that he's doing what he's doing to try to reduce for citizen in trying to teach these men how to get along and work two issues at least that's what it looks like on the series. But if it's a if it's an experiment my question is why are we filming it what any idea why he decided to have it filled in my mind if it's an experiment the filming. Would have altered the experiment these people may act differently knowing they're being filmed better or worse so II just wanted you know that I do admire the fact that he's trying to make things better than he's trying to work through some of the issues that we see with with this group and and people who are in prison and and try to help them make a better life for themselves down the robot II just don't really understand what we're doing you're why why was it filmed what what was the whole point if no one got paid at what was the upside of school for filming it sir I can't enter that question now i'm but i'm the only after the after effect guy the the sole issue for the county judge's office is that there was an illegal contract executed in um I don't know how that gets result map II appreciate that i'm not not trying to put on the spot answering the question I think we agree on the contract. Center bright recognize that you must chair so i'm right here in the middle thank you so so the share of executed the contract which was inappropriate or in violation of how we do business so technically there was no legal contract. For the show is that accurate it was illegal to sign that contract and therefore there is not a valid contract in force okay so how how is our how is the county insured. Like if something were gone wrong howard howard the county of held up on their liability are insurance is through ac. This targets association counties okay so you're part of a pool of our counties that's correct that anybody are other counties that they reach out to you and county judges reach out to you and express concern that you're potentially driving up there the risk by these actions. I'm not not met with that consultant no sir okay alright thank you mister thank you friend from bb mister whiten. Thank you mister german jersey sounds like to me this goes out like a wive crack in it is sounds like to me you need to get some birds down there and snip this thing in the bird when did you become aware that it was a contract. I guess the I guess a week or two after that first um trailer was advertised I didn't see i'd think it was a week or two after the first trailer was advertised on tv I guess you mean to tell me that has been in place down there for two years. And I can tract in sand and you didn't know it until the driver were because the the contract was not um was not held by anybody other than the shares office it wasn't recorded in the clerks office it wasn't provided to the purchasing department it was not provided to the house how did the county attorney in hallbar. A contract was submitted to the to the county attorney's office two years ago a couple years ago who was the contract so miss it to heal. I'll talk to you a review of all. And I review them after the county attorney the purchasing department in the controller review those agreements well come you didn't review this gun. How could something sixty thousand dollars in ball you. To the carely go go into the fact and be utilized by the shares department and you not know about it if you review all the contracts and you searched you to know anything about until the train was running. That's too late. What what what the delay is two years after the fire because it was it was a bad contract so it was returned to the math of court about your knowledge in your involvement and your duty and responsibility to the tax payers a policy care. Did you II don't understand exactly what you're asking me let me ask you this do you think a laws believe yes okay have you reported it to the prosecutor dirty and they are scam to investigate yesterday and is he doing that i'm at it is my understanding they are. You understand that you've turned it over the price could earning and he's investigating it. So you on what bases they had did you return to sixty thousand dollars because there is no basis to collect it on the basis what bases do you use or what are you saying are you saying you return because the contract is the legal yeah there was no valid contract to credit that that check too and then in addition the contract or i'm sorry in addition the check was marked as being a reimbursement. To the county from lucky eight productions. And and we have no record of expense and the sheriff's office has said there was no additional expense incurred by the county to to do this show so. So lucky. Spent all the money do you know if they pay those departies the garden that came across and I have absolutely no idea we would know I don't know any more than the here. Last year's fairly hard to deal with a hard to believe that that tap of a program would go on in the jail and bobbing and the house and media in the jail being on the premises of county property and you not know about it until the first travel and and I am shocked as well sir will whose in control down there is europe running the show the sheriff is in control of statutorily is in control of the operation of the jail and an operation of the patrol division of the sheriff when did you make the corn court aware that it was illegal contract in place with the next meeting after um we had seen the trailer see in the driver yes you made them aware of the yes well they were one today in structure to do or ask you to they asked to actually their coordinator to work with them on the questions that they wanted to to ask the share of about how this the show came about until they drafted forty questions I think was forty questions they they made the questions in the format of of an ordinary and they sent him to the sheriff and gave him I think two weeks to respond to answers with those questions. Did. Did you questions ever sent to the sheer of to answer. Come the corner of the corn court questions were answered I haven't read those answers haven't read that document my understanding is that that the response was some nearly four hundred pages. If it correct me if i'm well. Maybe but at all to share of say he talked of the city of tourney or the county attorney and the county attorney told him that it was all right in the country. No sir that I don't believe that's what the share said the share said that he talked about he talked about doing a production like this with lucky eight productions. And in the sheriff told him I think I have the authority to be able to have these people in here just like I have channel seven come and do story about what we're doing in here and the county turned he told him you operate the jail you let people in and you let people out under your authority in your control if that's what you want to do then you can do that but you can't bring me a bad contract and get me to recommend that it be signed by the county judge. So the show went on without a contract in place just gone the the shares merble approval to come in inch and fill michelle with ala contrary that's correct that you're okay thank you thank you thank you mister chairman thank you miss written and I believe it's a representative of terrorist shepherd. Thank you mister chair in in thank you tie for being here today i'm like some of my colleagues my questions were more so toys the share for the needs unfortunate that he's not here today because I wanted to thank him for the work that he's doing I am a correctional auditor so I do audit geals in prisons some of the questions that I had may not be able to extend but first our start with are you for me with george all the chill standards I am not are you familiar with this staffing patterns at the share. Reasonably what do the staff in paris look like as he relates to female to male ratio with the inmates. I didn't catch the left part of it was the racial guards to inmates and based on shinder. And I can't I can tell you that exact number but I take that through we don't have enough cards okay another question that are heavy is there about a hundred and twenty five g or standards that I reviewed maybe related to arc and sought there was a non national standards there probably about fifteen standards to related to the safety and security of the operations of their chair also it revealed that county arm officials receive inspections reports have you received the lady's their inspection report says the release to the country I have that received a I don't think i've ever received a jail inspection report on the on the county jail I received them on the juvenile detention facility because the juvenile detention facility place county is run under my authority okay so you would necessarily need to know what was going on in the shale. No okay thank you. The. Thank you not see any other questions for the judge so you're excused. Thank you sir thanks for being here to that judge and the committee the next to i'm sorry for the church. And the next would be sterning pennix from the standards jail standards please mister pennix here. And mister pennix appeared just raise your right hand and repeat if read the test more you've been give will it be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth you got please take your seat welcome and I just pushed a button when the red light comes on if you would state your name. And who you go. My name is sterling pinnocks and with the attention review office we operate at the department of public safety we've report under the commission or law enforcement standards and training okay in what can you explain the reason it's from a jail standards perspective y inates are locked down for twenty three hours and then one hour out jail standards in arkansas is not addressed that specifically. In general terms due to classification due to conduct due to patterns of behavior on occasion the sheriff and the sheriff's team may off to put someone in special housing restrictive housing or something along that line. That particular activity would be a local procedure coordinated at the county level the the review standard still speak that specific into that so do you have any knowledge of other detention the soldiers that have done a similar experiment such as this. Dick the reviews standards give a great deal of flexibility to the local share of into the county in terms of housing in terms of classification and on occasion in the past there have been programs filmed at jails here in arkansas. Get so during the the filming of this experiment did did your staff do any inspections of the plastic accounting detention center to my understanding based on the material the program was filmed in march of twenty three give her take a couple of weeks either way are the review team was there in november we were there about eight months after the filming. Okay so did you happen to review did you see have you watched the document series yes sir I have so in your professional opinion with jail standards did you see any violations of the law that occurred. Based on my review of the material I do have concerns we do have concerns based on standards and will be going to the facility at the end of this month to follow up on those concerns in those areas that have captured our concern which is based on the standards so in your inspections from jail standards do you make no notice inspections or have you ever made a no notice inspection on the place you count in detention center. No sir we we almost always reach out to the command staff prior to our arrival we typically call maybe two or three weeks in advance to schedule and coordinated we typically want to speak with the sheriff or with the chief deputy so we want to try to be there and try to catch all in the office and talk through activities and those tap things okay thank you and represent terror shepherd thank you mr chair over here and is great to see you again it's been a while since we've seen each other yes may I marcy union yet great to have you here so since we're talking about standards so which standard was their concern with one concern that we have is the duty to perform the hourly sell chips and that will be an area that will be looking at to see if indeed those hourly sell checks were taking place. Also we have some questions about policies and where those policies in place in those type of things those are some initial questions that we would have specific to this part that we're referencing yes ma'am okay and so you are were there in november. Yes ma'am for the audience ma'am did you pay answer failing them when we conducted the review last november we found two areas that were of concern one wish it was with respect to staffing and one with respect to space. Which is somewhat common cross arkansas absolutely winnowing correction there's a shortage of staff yes did they fail or pass the inspection the review document does not speak in those terms we do an evaluation of the side based on the standards okay and with the last visit there was no direct finding of noncompliance there were only those two areas of concern okay so the areas of concern where areas that were not pretty much mandatory and they were out of compliance if it was the space and staffing those were the two items of of concern yes ma'am and the standards are not really aggregated beyond there are less question mister chair. What's the inspection reports are complete whose provided a copy of those reports we will send a car be to the sheriff. To the county judge. To the county clerk. And also the administrative circuit judge. So at that point everyone you just name is for me what's going on with the daily day operations of the. I apologize I did not cash the first point your question so at that point everyone that you just mentioned is for me what's happening with the day to date operations of that our hope we we worked to get those reports out to those individuals at the same time we realize that they're busy and receive a lot correspondence and those type things thank you and thank you for being here today yes ma'am thank you cyner bright you recognize thank you mister chair so a quick question on what point is the right here in the middle and start part of this does lack of adherence to jail standards correlate to an increased success of a lawsuit filed against jail on behalf of an an apologized could you restate the first point that question at what what's that the lack of adherence to jail standards what correlation is that to increase the success to a lawsuit. That would be a fairly new asked question and and that's a good question I think on balance where the courts could potentially look at would be the corrective action that's taking place to address a potential concern most of the literature that i've read in recent years speaks in terms of that while that's a very good question it falls outside the published standards and it would be hard for me to speak beyond that okay alright thank you thank you mister yesterday thank you. And senator. Looks like sender loves up next thank you mister chair didn't talk to the about those concerns and I will know personnel because i've actually spoken with sheriff who goes on several occasions in regards to personnel which I mean he's has improved the number of personal he asked for for jails but I mean it's still lacking and you stated that the county judge received a copy of the reports that you have in so i'm assuming that you stressed the there needs to be more personal. Yes sir in our most recent report we had made it notation that the facility would benefit and with respect to additional staff okay let me ask you this is there a response do you receive a response from the elected officials. Home you give the reports to as I regard to how they're going to address. Typically we would engage directly with the share for the sheers team as far as correct of measures policy updates those time things okay it has a sheriff indicated in the past that. He's try to. Keep more personnel here to me has it been one of his responses yes sir. Okay. So I guess and so at that point in time is there any elevation to the other elected officials in which you send. Send the report to their there could be in in working with a sheriff if there is a concern or a potential concern during those conversations and during those meetings after times are we could and we have in the past reach out to the county judge of met with core courts we wouldn't have in the past person before corn courts are engaged the county church those type of things okay in the in so in the past have you all have you are engaged in court to express the need for additional personnel no sir I don't believe so with respect to palask and county all of our conversations have been with the sheriff in the sheriff's team. Soap so far as I know and so far as I can remember all right thank you thank you sure yes sir thank you thanks center love and representative flowers. Thank you mister chairman. Hi there will be here yes I have been listening intently and learned a light today in am especially interested in your oversight as a release of standards on these issues and I heard you mention that you had watched the darkey series which I have not watched it completely and that there would be a visit and that you had several concerns and then I heard you mentioned that there had been I guess to visit back in november and that the only concerns that were documented were staffing in space so what what concern do you have concerns outside of staffing in space at this juncture now that you have watched the document series yes ma'am i'm sorry yes maybe I do have some concerns the primary concern is during the time of this project. Was the staff conducting their hourly so checks. That is a primary concern we have at this moment and in may will be at the facility engaging with the command staff having that conversation also will ask some questions about policy in any changes to policy and those type of things. Interest. I guess i'm wondering as it relates to the conducting what did you call it hourly sell checks hourly self yes ma'am and can that be done or are those typically done in person by staff especially given the the staffing. Um issues that we have really all across the state and or could that be done the cameras you know or is that done often by cameras as well yes ma'am what the standards look for is for staff to actually enter the housing unit at least once an hour and check on that space and check on the occupants. And finally. We've heard a lot about. Facility safety particularly for our deputies as well as for the meets. And. About recitivism indirect versus direct. Supervision. The. Do you have are there any standards that relate to those issues that we've heard about today that would cause you concern and then also do standards exist as it relates to the presence of media are whether it's for an interview or whether it's for something like this starking series or for citizens in general maybe it just applies that citizens but can you give us some inside as to what the standard say as it relates to them yes ma'am. The standards do not provide any specific language with respect to programs and services there is a passage in standards that provides some very broad language if a jail is to have programs if the jail is to have services there's to be policies in place as far as the actual specific procedures bad to organized at the county level by the sheriff in the sheriff's team. So there is there wouldn't be anything for you to. Fine in that area attract so we. We would not have jurisdiction on a particular program. We would not have jurisdiction on on a particular service. Unless that programmer service was to violate a particular standard. For example a jail will have a visitation program or a visitation service we look for that program and we look for that service to be there. At the same time. We don't. Show up and say it's going to be monday from one o'clock to two o'clock it's going to be thursday from four to six we look for that basic parameter and the procedures are set at the local level by. Carry share of insurance team. Okay thank you so much yes ma'am thank you and thank you to the sweetest most honourable future mayor of pine bluff then we very proud of her and center bright thank you mister pennix as you as you watch that series was there any concern about the cameramen inside the facility like is there is there not a requirement for them to be escorted or conduct training for c cgis issues. Yet yes sir at the end of may when we get to the facility and conduct or follow up those will be some of the questions we will ask those with the questions we have as well as fars any type of visitation policy or any type of change to the visitation policy a jail could host perhaps a plumber or someone to do extermination services in a housing area typically a count would have policy of how that particularly professional will make their way about the facility with a film crew example we will have questions about what type of policies were in place that guided that particular process okay and did you know if it's lego illegal to pay after the officers to conduct security for visitors in the jail. That particular question would probably fall outside the scope of standards I could certainly visit with the appropriate people and try to get you a good strong response to that question I would appreciate if you'd smith that the chester will be very happy thank you center brian and center chest field the chairman good evening how are you and ma'am would you agree that the vast majority of penal systems understand. As we travel arkansas and look at county jails here in arkansas if there is a struggle uh often times it does pertain to low staff and so this is not unusual but last account is not something that is an outliar because people simply are not rushing to get into law enforcement are there. Well that the standards don't necessarily speak to that so i'm a little bit reluctant which you've looked at the results and you know period I think it'd be fair to say that a lot of sheriffs around our concern. I think could be fair and accurate to say that a lot of sheriffs around arkansas I still work in a really hard to recreate people and retain people and I think if you were to visit with most shares I think most shares would say that recruitment and retention is a big challenge and as I travel are concerned it looks as though yes it can be a challenge to recruit and retain staff is marifact I was in an event with a sheer of higgins. Two saturdays ago when he made a recruiting pitch three to please you have graduated from college please come join us in the sheriff's department. Any seeing about it rushing over to visit with him about that but the pitch was there and all we can do is ask is that not correct you can recruit and recruiting recruit these are very special people who were these uniforms and it takes a very special person to do that and so it's very difficult sometimes to get people especially good people who want to do this but this is he's not an outlier in the fact that it's understaffed is a correct II have the honor of working with all the sheriffs in arkansas if a sheriff has a challenge if a sheriff has a struggle I think he received almost say every time staff it's a it's a tremendous challenge to recruit and retain retail cross the state then what was the other area other than the staffing what was the other space space yes ma'am and I don't know the last time blast accounting built to new facility I believe the most recent edition was constructed in nineteen ninety four in nineteen ninety four the other part I believe was built in nineteen seventy four I would need to check that but I believe that's correct nineteen seventy four nineteen ninety four in more recent years prior to my time I think there was a renovation that gave way to some additional space but the personnel in the space are I think I will which really you don't have a lot of control is that correct. Often times and and this is outside the scope of standards but often times a court room activity arrest rates those type of phenomenons can impact any populations population activity well thank you for your objective. Response to my perhaps not so objective question is but I think we need to we need to know what we're dealing with because I think in our county jails now a city jails in our state prisons were understaffed and we don't have the capacity. So we're gonna have to do something cause we can't build our way out of this and that's just one of the things I keep saying and is am going home i'm gonna say it again you can't build your way out of it because you can not determine human behavior and we don't know all we can do is try to do the very best weekend thank you so much again for being here thank you mister you're saying thank you center just failed and we have one more less and you're good okay so represent the terror shepherd you're recognizing him will lock it down hitcher button again please terror. There you go thank you thank you mister chair sterling is the jo prior credit do you know I would have to check all the okay that process and that decision is outside the scope of state standards I know historically plasky county has worked to implement a range of pre or protocols yes ma'am thank you miss shepherd and up mr penic thank you for being here appreciate your testimony and unless I there's any other thank you thank you mister chairman thank you thank you no for the businesses committee stands adjourned.