Insurance & Commerce - Senate
Video
Transcript
1 document
Bills discussed (1)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
|
SB437
Act 945
· 3 mentions in agenda, chapter, transcript
Matched: “…vin Sen. Clint Penzo REGULAR AGENDA Number Sponsor Subtitle SB437 Hester TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT.…”
|
TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT. | Hester | Notification that SB437 is now Act 945 |
Machine transcript
May contain errors. Verify important quotations against the official video.
About transcript accuracy
- Source
- SliQ live captions
- Model
- SliQ live ASR
- Processing date
- October 2, 2026
Speaker 3
0:43
Senate Insurance and commerce will come to order. Senator Hester, you have an
Speaker 5
0:52
amendment that's fine. Just make sure. Yes.
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
0:55
Yes, I've got, I've got an amendment members, uh, based off of our conversation, um. And I, I haven't mentioned it to
any of you. It's just based off of some conversation from earlier today. And what that, what it does is um
It, if you've got a current project underway, then you are exempted from setbacks and permitting, but you would still have to cooperate with some of the most important things that I believe as far from the like uh bonding so that you don't just take your tax credits and go home, and now the local community is sitting there with this, with these monstrosities and no one has the financial ability to to undo them or make them go away. So I think regardless if
You are under construction now or not, I think it is imperative that we put some of these requirements in in protection for our local communities. But that's it. This, this, even if you are against this bill, I think you'd be for this amendment because it certainly is um Uh, makes it easier on those currently under construction.
Speaker 3
2:11
Motion by Senator Boyd's second by Senator McKee, all in favor say aye. OK, your bill is amended.
Senator McKee, Mr. Chairman, I move that we, because of the lengthy
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
2:23
list of speakers that we have in the late hour, I move that we limit debate to
Speaker 3
2:29
2 minutes per speaker. Recognized by Senator Boyd So substitute motion. Well, since so
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
2:41
much testimony was given in presenting the bill, I think it's only fair that they have at least 55 minutes, uh, for each person that I don't know how many
people you got signed up. Do you
Speaker 16
2:54
have 9. We're to limit it 2 minutes, Senator
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
2:58
Flowers. I'd ask that a substitute motion for 3 minutes, 2 minutes is Not enough for me to even get my question out probably. That's not including
Speaker 2
3:09
the questions. It's just including the testimony for 3
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
3:12
minutes. I don't think that's motion
Speaker 3
3:15
to amend that to 3 minutes about a second by Senator Flowers. Uh,
seconded by Senator Penzo. So we're gonna recognize that secondary motion all in favor say aye. All opposed. All right, thank you, Senator Flowers. 3 minutes limited debate. You're gonna keep that. OK. We're going to go to testimony as soon as staff is ready for that timer.
We got uh Barry Sellers against Just come up here, just pass on this side and Introduce yourself and you're recognized. And I think you have a
Speaker 23
4:18
letter also. Senator Johnson and I, Chairman Johnson and committee, I've turned in a letter for y'all to look at your conveyance and you've
Speaker 25
4:24
got a lot of people lined up to talk to you, so I'll let y'all have my information I have and uh if you've had a chance to
look at that, I sent that last night and then I brought a copy today and I'll be glad to answer any questions on that, but I, I asked that you vote
Speaker 3
4:44
no for this bill as it is. Thank you, sir. Is there any questions? All right. Thank
Speaker 31
5:04
Good afternoon committee. Uh, my name's Nick Sparks. I am a developer for AAA Power but also a
Speaker 32
5:16
resident of Arkansas. Chairs Johnson and Vice Chair Boyd and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony, albeit shortened in the first speaker, as I said, I'm Nick Sparks, manager of business development for Triple Power. We are a US-based clean energy company with energy development projects in 22 states, including here in
Arkansas. I live in Northwest Arkansas, Farmington with my wife, who is a lifelong Arkansan, and alumni of the University of Arkansas,
Speaker 31
5:42
and our 4 children. I am very grate Grateful. Very grateful to be able to provide for my family, develop wind projects across the central US and here in my home state. I am currently the developer for an early stage project in Clay County. Triple Oak also has a later stage project in Cridan County.
And if passed, the restrictions of this bill would prevent both of these projects from moving forward. Denying local landowners additional income for years to come, lease payments, and counties
Speaker 32
6:14
significant tax revenues. And I really wanted to touch on the the lady's comment earlier about the tax dollars. The tax dollars are real. I developed in Oklahoma, and I think uh in 2023 there was over $90 million paid to counties from wind farms. One of the projects that I'm working on now, we just got a tax estimate back. The 1st 10
years, uh, Craig County, Oklahoma is going to receive $45 million. Those are real numbers. Now how that's dispersed, that's up to the assessor and all that, but there's real money that comes with these projects. Uh, you know, we are dedicated to responsible project sighting and development. Every project we develop undergoes years of thorough studies. This includes planning, environmental, economic, cultural view, careful engineering, SB 437 creates a slew of new processes and
regulations and setbacks for wind turbines, and I, I really wanted to kind of talk about Long grain, and I know I'm short on time, but we've completed multiple years of biological studies, including avian and bat studies. Consulting with the US Fish and Wildlife, the Arkansas Game and fish on the topic of water fowl, as well as the Crian County Wildlife Refugee Management. We have relationships with our landowners. This is what it's all about. Your constituents in Clay County, I've got to know some of them, and that's what I love about this job is the relationships and the
communities that I get to go in. And and and our Cridland County project, that's over 23,000 acres. We've done soil surveys, hydrology studies, our project team regularly meets with the county, the quorum Court, the planning commission. This is not a sign a lease we go away and come back to construction. This is part of the community. Uh, we've had outreach to non-participating
Speaker 31
7:59
landowners. We've been open and transparent, and that's what we stand on. And so we've reached out to the ag pilots. We heard concerns.
Speaker 30
8:09
We've had dinners with them, and we're poised to go to construction late 2026 on that
Speaker 3
8:14
project. Thank you, Mr. Parks. Thank you. Time is up. Is there any
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
8:19
questions? Go ahead, send her flowers. So you, you mentioned that you have uh
done. Consult with About ecology and stuff. Can you talk a little bit about that.
Is there a review by a certain agency, state agency.
Speaker 32
8:41
Yeah, so every, before we go in before we go into an area, we do a lot of desktop studies to kind of understand the environment. Once we progress with the land leasing, we know our project boundaries, we get to a point where we actually do hire biologists, they do nest surveys, eagle surveys to understand the bat. There is consulting with the US Fish and Wildlife, the game and fish. It just depends on county by county what the what the habitat is and what kind of requirements, boxes you have to check or or mitigate anything like that. So yeah, we're in consultation
with those agencies early and often, so mainly the US Fish and Wildlife and the Arkansas Game
Speaker 31
9:17
and Fish, um, and just kind of whatever, uh, you know, environmental factors you have in that county. Those agencies sign off and or approve
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
9:25
or what type of review do they have? Yeah, they look, they look at our site plan. I don't know that
Speaker 32
9:31
at the federal level there are some permits that we have to get for if there are certain bat species in that area, we have to get permits, eagles, if there's going to be
an eagle take permit, that's a review process where they would give us a permit. Yes. Senator Pinzo. Senator Irvin. Thank you. Do you work in other states? Yes, yes, ma'am. I work in the central US, South Dakota,
Speaker 45
10:07
Southern Illinois, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and South Dakota. So
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
10:13
other states, do you, do you work in any states that have state regulations. Yes, some of
Speaker 32
10:19
those states do have state siding bills or removal bonds or things like that. So yeah, there's every state is different, but some have nothing and some have some. And, um, based on
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
10:30
the work that you do in these other states, you say some have some and something and some have different, what, how does this
compare to those states that you work in.
Speaker 47
10:45
So to get into specifics of the bill, the setbacks is pretty restrictive. Um, you know, I don't
Speaker 32
10:50
have it in front of me, but I think some of the language again, we're not opposed to reasonable siding. We're not opposed to reasonable rules to follow, but I think some of the intentions of this bill is not to be reasonable, but again, deciding what is that science or what's that setback based on because a lot of times the industry uses 1.1, um, you know, so that's just one thing that comes to mind. There was
another couple of topics that are
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
11:19
just too kind of restrictive. And then I have one last question. In previous meeting
we talked about the which is something I'm very concerned about is personal aviation and the size of these structures and how that's very disruptive, particularly if they're placed on top of a ridge and a mountaintop, and it's, it's a sizable obstruction, um.
Do you, are there, are there any provisions that you work in these other states that deal
Speaker 32
11:54
directly with that. Yeah, that, that all comes from the FAA or the Department of Defense. So before you ever sign a project, you're already screening for airports, private aircraft, you know, airports, so when you get to a certain point, you'll submit FAA filings, turbine locations through the FAA. Again, the lady earlier mentioned that there's, that's recommended that that's the FAA tells us where these turbines
can go and not go. They're going to look at it. They're going to study the aircraft pathways. They're going to study the airports in. that region, if there's any military assets, the Department of Defense is going to look at that. This is not just we put turbans wherever they go. They're going to make sure it does not interfere with airspace that would impede the traffic of aircraft that would mitigate any safety issues that aircraft would encounter if they come up on wind farms, so all of that is regulated by the FAA and the Department of Defense as far as airspace, but but do they
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
12:49
regulate, I mean, do they look at air air traffic like only for commercial. or are they also looking at private because, I mean, I just don't feel like The project in Carroll County took
any of that into consideration with where it's located, yeah, so the smaller airports you have,
Speaker 36
13:09
they, and I'm not an aviation expert, but you have different classes of
Speaker 32
13:14
airspace, and so those are regulated differently like X and A. You're, you're probably not
going to get a, you know, wind project sighted around Bentonville
Speaker 45
13:24
or Cave Springs because it's in very heavily controlled airspace. Uh,
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
13:30
but yeah, they would not worried about urban areas. I'm worried about rural
areas where there are mountain ranges that are already pose significant Damn, danger to private aviation. And small airports you have a very, you have, you have a very,
you have a personal airline that flies out of Harrison, Arkansas. They have its direct flights. There are people literally that work in the Middle East in the oil fields that live in Harrison, Arkansas because they can jump on a on a plane out of Harrison, Arkansas and fly to Dallas or St. Louis and cut a direct flight to Dubai. That is the type of issue I'm talking about. I'm not talking about XMA. I'm not talking about Little Rock Airport. I'm talking about my area where I live in the state of Arkansas and how it's already dangerous
and how that seemed to have never been ever taken into consideration. So I get my question very specifically would be, you know, private, small. This, this is a commercial airline, but it's, it is a very small learjet commercial commercial air. Yes, no, I, I understand, and yeah, Triple Oak is not developing in Carroll County. I
Speaker 32
14:46
want the record to state that we're in the Delta mainly, but the FAA will look at all traffic
patterns and whether that's a, I assume you're talking about Southern Airways. Is that the airline? So again, that's commercial. They're probably operating under some commercial, so yeah, they're going to look at that flight path. There's going to be different tiers of airspace that they would look at over the Ozarks, and again I'm just talking in general there if if a company submits turbine locations in Carroll County or uh you know, hot springs or Clay County, the FAA is going to review those and give you a determination of hazard or a no
determination of hazard. If you get a determination hazard, there could be mitigation efforts that you would have to submit to get those turbine locations, but yeah, the FAA has the final say unless there's no DOD assets airspace in that area. OK,
Speaker 3
15:41
thank you. Any other question for Mr. Sparks, seeing none, uh thank you you're dismissed. Uh, next we have Dr. Bradley Kerr for the bill.
Speaker 63
16:00
Introduce yourself and you recognized. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
16:05
for the opportunity to speak for you today. My name is Bradley Kerr. I'm here to speak in favor of the wind Energy Development Act and my support will be from the perspective of a professional engineer and professional technologist. First, let me briefly convey what makes me able to speak from that qualification standpoint, I have a bachelor of science from the University of Arkansas, Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Texas A&M
University. A bachelor's in Business Administration from Rice University, a doctorate in mechanical engineering from Texas A&M University. Additionally, I'm a registered professional engineer licensed to practice in Arkansas and Texas. I'm a private pilot instrument rated. So my entire professional career has been dealing with the energy industry and regulations within the energy industry and in particular interpreting and following those regulations within the energy industry. That has
Speaker 66
16:57
covered technology development, operations management, and financial modeling.
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
17:04
All of which are guided by various regulations. All professional engineers like myself were legally and ethically bound to follow rules, regulations, standards and best practices. As a professional engineer, everything that I encounter, all, all problems that are brought before me, there is a rule, a law, a, a standard that I can go back to and tie my determination. Of how I came up with that answer back to.
Yet none of these principles exist in Arkansas, so the engineer that's working on this wind turbine versus the engineer that's working on that wind turbine versus the engineer working on another wind turbine are left to their own discretion as to what they're going to use as the basis of their calculations as the basis of how am I going to make this safe for the population.
Speaker 66
17:56
So when I look at it, I find that that is a major gap in Arkansas. Not
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
18:01
only are professional engineers left without guidance. What we've seen with this project,
particularly in Carroll County, is that the absence of regulation has left state and local authorities without the necessary jurisdiction and without the
Speaker 66
18:13
necessary tools to perform their mandated services. When you go to a local jurisdiction or a local authority and ask for an opinion. There's no law. I can't help you. So in, in engineering all projects involve trade-offs,
Speaker 68
18:36
attributes such as safety, strength, reliability, economics, and so
Speaker 66
18:40
on. And they all have to be considered simultaneously but without bias, with the exception of one. Above all, the safety and protection of
Speaker 70
18:50
the public must avail. That is the mandate of an engineer. All of
Speaker 72
18:56
the other attributes and choices and desired outcomes are of secondary concern.
Speaker 66
19:01
Maintaining this importance of safety first is the role fulfilled by regulation
oversight and enforcement and all other industrial applications within the state. As an example, consider we heard earlier about oil and gas. One of the most heavily regulated businesses in
Speaker 70
19:20
the country. They thrive under regulation. Thank you,
Speaker 3
19:23
sir. Time is up. Senator McKee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some discussion has
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
19:29
occurred based on the setbacks, and you said you work in surrounding states as well. So you're familiar with wind
turbines in other states. Are there, are there any differences between the ones erected in other states and the ones proposed for Arkansas or that have been erected in Arkansas. So to the best of my knowledge, the ones that are proposed
Speaker 66
19:48
in Arkansas are the largest turbines that have been proposed in the United States to date.
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
19:53
How, how tall are those? So are you talking hub height or tip height? Hub height is going to range, if you look at the material that's in here, they're going to talk in meters, 140 to 150 plus
Speaker 66
20:03
meters and then the blade we're we're in we're in the US in the US, but that's
that's. I have to use their quotes, right? So round numbers 550 ft tall to the hub, round numbers 690 ft 698 ft to the tip of the blade standing above the hub. So you're talking. Several 100 ft taller than the Simmons Bank Building to give you a reference on heights. Would that
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
20:28
have any effect on the possible setbacks that are included in the bill. Would that cause the setbacks in this bill to maybe be different from setbacks required in other
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
20:41
states. No, sir. The setbacks that I've seen are fairly uni that I have seen are uniform and that
Speaker 70
20:47
it's to the tip of the highest blade height. The setback is calculated from that point unless you want to specify. No, I'm just,
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
20:55
I just want to make sure I understand. Sorry, the setbacks in this bill are they similar to setbacks in other states, similar
Speaker 85
21:02
to setbacks in other states. OK. Thank you. So, OK, so, uh, Does
Speaker 3
21:07
it have uh engineering wise with the half of these for our
state. Does that have a bearing on the footprint and the depth. Of the footing For these particular urbans absolutely the the
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
21:22
mass of the structure that's being built is significantly larger as you go higher, that is one of the many components to go into a calculation. The other is going to be is the terrain and the soil structure, the underlying geology, what can it support?
Speaker 66
21:43
And that's where you get into hydrology studies and geologic studies and borehole core samples and then assuming there's any regulation, how do you use that information to then apply design standards to figure out what does the footing need to be, how big, how deep, uh, how wide does there need to be peers that go into the further into the subterrane. For example, Carroll County extremely arse terrain. I've seen pictures of the side of bluffs
that, you know, people say like Swiss cheese, but literally like Swiss cheese. I've talked to water well drillers up there, one of the regulations in Arkansas is you have to place casing to 80 ft or into competent rocks. Sometimes that may be hundreds of feet in Carroll County before they're even able to get a piece of casing into the ground for a water well. Now we're talking about building something that's nearly 600 ft tall and weighs how much on top of a mountain ridge. That has wind blowing on it
constantly trying to knock it over. The terrain is a very important consideration. Without the palings,
Speaker 3
22:52
what would you eastern Arkansas compared to Western Arkansas, what would the depth of just the footing without pilings. What would you assume? I would, I would be as a professional engineer, I'd
Speaker 90
23:05
be remiss to make an assumption without the, without the geologic bore. Um, knee-jerk reaction.
Speaker 66
23:11
You don't have near the rock
structure that you do there, so it's, it's really a 5050 question on clay content versus rock content and then how much load bearing surface and how much load bearing capability does that soil construction have, which you can only figure out by taking samples, having hydrology work done, having the geotech work done, having the competency of that soil classified for you to know how how to build
Speaker 70
23:39
a foundation or a footing, so no footing is the same.
Speaker 3
23:48
And it all depends on the soil structure. No
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
23:51
footing is the same across the state and even further, no footing would be the same from one location to another within the
Speaker 66
23:57
same county. Um, you can go to, for example, we'll use these Carroll County again. You can go to one mountain ridge and it's primarily sandstone. You can go down the valley and and and ride over. I mean, you hit a golf ball that far and it's shale. You go over here and it's clay base, so each individual site
needs an individual study for something this large to be able to say, OK, this is designed for this location. Can you,
Speaker 3
24:28
can you give me any kind of indicator of the depth of a footing on a on a typical 400 ft tall structure. No, sir, because it all depends
Speaker 68
24:39
on where you're putting it, right? Are you building it upon sand or
Speaker 66
24:44
are you building it upon a granite foundation. Small turbines with competent soils below it, depth
may be the depth of the concrete, maybe 14 to 16 ft diameter maybe. 60 to 70 ft in diameter, so you're talking something. 2 to 3 times the size of this room of concrete and steel buried in the ground to just simply try and hold this thing up. All right. Is there any
Speaker 92
25:11
other questions, Senator Boy? So this, this is
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
25:16
a lot of new regulation for Arkansas, um, you said you're from Texas, so
presumably you've worked in Texas. No, so I'm from Arkansas. I currently live in Texas, right, but have you done work in Texas, I'm licensed to practice in Texas and Arkansas. I mean, can you give me some kind of idea of how this matches up with a state like Texas. I mean, are we
Speaker 72
25:39
like overdoing it or we're about the same size final point that I had to make
Speaker 66
25:44
before the infamous beeper there was that When I look at the regulations for this versus any other energy industry versus other states. I
Speaker 81
25:52
find this very reasonable. And I think this is a very reasonable package for
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
26:05
go forward. Senator Flowers So have you inspected the project up there in Carroll County. No,
ma'am. It's private property. Have you seen any studies that may have been submitted to US Wildlife or no, ma'am,
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
26:19
the studies that the only information that is really
available is what's available publicly. There has been an incomplete study that I'm aware of that was submitted to the federal Wildlife Commission they came back with a to be determined and still under investigation. That's what is on their website as of as of today. I do, do believe that there has been some determination made from the FAA for some of the sites there, but as far as any type of geologic or geotech studying, we have, we have not seen it.
I am aware that it has supposedly been conducted and we have asked for a copy of that to see what that looks like, but we don't know at this point in time what is contained in there or how even that determination was made. Who is we? So it be myself or any of the other contingents that are here for the bill some of the JPs in Carroll County that have been watching over this project for a time concerned citizens that are
nearby neighbors of the of the locations where there are wind farms are
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
27:30
going up. Do you know whether Carroll County has a zoning
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
27:33
board. Do they have a zoning board or not? I do not know. Are there any zoning laws there are
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
27:41
not. Could, could not the local officials create Some zoning regulations. Yes, ma'am, they could create local zoning you know
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
27:49
they could create local zoning you know what? They have attempted and quite,
quite frankly, due to the threat of ongoing lawsuits from the wind farms, the JPs have that's your opinion now. Come on. No, ma'am. That's, that's what the JPs will claim to us in the the JPs here tonight. It's a court meeting. There's no JP here. There's a core meeting scheduled. The, the, the wind farm that is there, they're up for a debate tonight at the Court is Some issues with the wind farm. Each JP received from the wind farm that is there within the
last week. A letter informing them that if they voted for the regulation that was proposed, they would be sued. Do you have a copy of the letter? Do we
Speaker 112
28:36
have a copy of the letter? Yes, ma'am. I'd like to see it. We can get you a copy. So
Speaker 3
28:43
if we have that letter, we have that letter I want staff to make a copy for all the members to get it from Miss Angel. Is there any other questions, Senator Irvin? So thank you. I, I, I go back to, yes, I'm
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
28:59
concerned about the aviation, the aviation private airline, but I'm
also concerned about the topography and the cave systems. So the Ozarks particularly, and we just had a bill about this a cars talk. topography. I live in this
area and so from time to time, even in my own driveway, I have what's called wet weather springs, and because of a
cars topography limestone, the water will carve out caves and you don't know that you're building
on top of a cave until it's too late, kind of like a sinkhole in the state of Florida. Florida has a lot of sinkholes because they have the same level of topography. So if you were to try to build a wind turbine in the state of Florida. really stupid idea because there's no possible way you could go deep enough and wide enough to build that size of a concrete base, generally speaking, um, it's very difficult to do and there's tons of regulations involved because of it and and I know that for a fact my daughter helped build
the Blue Origin, um, rocket manufacturing facility in Cape Canaveral. And so in order to hold the weight of a rocket, you had a t as poor of concrete and steel reinforcement. Anyway, but to do that on top of our cave system. I can't imagine. What that would, that would destroy like Blanchard Springs caverns is a great clear example of that. And, and if somebody were to Put this wind turbine on top of
Blanchard Springs Caverns, you would destroy, you know, what I would consider one of the wonders of the world. I mean, it's just an incredible cave system that we have up there, so I just, I'm not sure from your perspective, if you can talk to that, um, about the, the, the, the cars topography and how Drastically affected it would be. So from a, I'm not a subsurface geologist, so I
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
31:00
would, I would be remiss to tell you that I can
explain a competently what the geology in Carroll County is, and I wouldn't try. I will tell you that from projects that I have worked on in the past, where we have had to consider cars topography. There are surveys, I mean some of them are even satellite surveys where you look for movement in the ground over several years. I mean, you're talking just tiny millimeters, but I've had structures before, uh, industrial rigs that were operating and much like you
said, several feet away, the ground opens up and there's a 1520 30 ft hole there. I've been involved in oil and gas wells that have drilled into cars terrain and hit one of these caves or one of these karst features, and it's been uncontrollable. the air that would come out of or there wasn't much gas there because very shallow, but just compressed air over time that has gathered and come there. Getting to your question specific about Carroll County. The only thing as a professional
engineer that I can do or that any engineer that is working on this
Speaker 66
32:11
should do is take the core samples that are taken at each specific site and take the analysis that is done by an independent lab to figure out the strength of the soil and then calculate what do I need to be able to support this structure on top of that. It's the same thing you do when you get a house built, it's the same thing you do when you build a road. It's the same thing you do when you build a bridge. Thank
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
32:34
you. And now we're talking about the biggest things in
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
32:39
Arkansas. Yeah, and I don't want to belabor it, but I mean, I just can tell you there are examples in the Ozarks, the whole entire Ozark region is what we're describing here and like at top of the rock, they had a driving range that literally sank and yeah, and it literally sank and he excavated all of it, but it completely collapsed because of the car and no one knew it was there nobody knew it was there until it collapsed. Senator Flowers. Just, just
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:09
You, you mentioned what should be done before these decisions are made to build. Yes ma'am. Do you know that? The company that has built a fair in Carroll County. has not done that.
We have been told by the other state officials that a geotech report is forthcoming. So you don't know whether
Speaker 124
33:24
they did it or not. We don't know whether they did it or not, and you don't know what is in it if they
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:35
did do it. We know that we have requested we being the
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
33:40
group that's here, we have requested that those documents be shared for approximately 10 months now. Well, when you say it's forthcoming, who is, is it a governmental agency that
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:50
is from the state fire marshal, from the state fire marshal and
so you can get it through freedom of information Act from the Marshall, probably he'll probably give it to you portions of it, yes, ma'am. And, and I wanted to know, have
you done any kind of survey. Up
in Carroll County, it seems like Carroll County is what you're focused on, at least Senator Irvin and I understand her
concern because she's from up there, but Carroll County you've done some, some surveying up there or defined surveying for me, ma'am. Well, you're a Professional engineer, have you done any kind of studies to look at the soil, look at all the things that you
said have to be considered. No, ma'am, you're
Speaker 132
34:41
talking about millions of dollars that would have to be spent, so you haven't done it
Speaker 130
34:45
you wouldn't be able to. It's just a simple question. Yes ma'am you have
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
34:50
or not. You work with other companies, you could do it. No, ma'am,
Speaker 99
34:54
we can't. It's private land. We wouldn't be allowed to
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
34:57
land a lease or asked them to let me do a steady. I mean, no, ma'am,
Speaker 96
35:01
the company that's there has had the leases under wrap for over 10 years under NDA before they got the list before they got the leash, you had
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
35:08
an opportunity to do it if you were concerned about any
kind of project going on up there or about to be uh no man that that
Speaker 96
35:17
would be about like me asking what is the legislature session going to contain in 2 years. You could ask us. We probably tell you something. Could. Thank you,
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
35:31
Senator Flowers. Senator McKee, he was chair. So as a licensed engineer, do you, do you prefer building A projects where everybody can build to their own specifications and design attributes or do you prefer
having a set of plans and guidelines up front so that you know that you're competing against folks
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
35:50
that are all playing by the same rules, so it's not a matter of preference nor a matter of competition. It's a matter of from, from my perspective and my license requirement, it's simply a matter of safety, and that is based on centuries of education, engineering, scient. Scientific discovery and then when something comes up, whether it's, as I said before, a house, a road, a bridge, all of these
telephone poles for, you know, for something even as simple. There are regulations that then when all of a
Speaker 66
36:20
sudden, hey, you're going to build that. How does an engineer over here know to do. What needs to be done versus this engineer over here. So it's not a matter of preference. It's that there is in a regulatory body, there is, for example, let's go oil and gas. There's the API. They come out with standards, states and even the federal government adopts those standards. There are industry
best practices that are generated by the wind industry and by proponents and oppositions that win that have come together and said, these are what we think are our best practices, but we, we, we're not even talking about. Those being used. One more, Mr. Chairman. So there's several other people signed up to speak.
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
37:02
Will they be able to come up here and tell us examples of where these regulations are more draconian and different from other states. That's a difficult question to answer because, as was stated
Speaker 66
37:16
this morning, the regulations are based on what other states have adopted. And that was the way to make it as palatable as possible when you look at what are other surrounding states that have had these industries around for a long time. What is palatable to those
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
37:32
publics, so it's to your knowledge, the wind industry that is looking at developing in Arkansas is operating under similar standard standards in every other state that they're operating in, to my knowledge, yes. Thank you.
Speaker 87
37:49
Thank you, sir. Uh, you're dismissed, sir. Thank you. Yes. Do what? You don't
Speaker 14
38:10
have the representation. They're waiting on the email. We'll, we'll get that to you as
Speaker 145
38:14
soon as, as soon as we can be commencing 15 minutes, so we've asked, thank you.
Speaker 148
38:41
been bend that thing over pretty good or. Just introduce yourself and who you're with and and you're recognized.
Speaker 150
38:52
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do think that there are some other folks here from industry that can clarify some of
Speaker 152
39:00
the conversations that some of the more technical conversations that have come up so far, but thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. My name's Lauren Waldrop. I'm the executive director of the Arkansas Advanced Energy Association. We represent a broad coalition of businesses, developers, and stakeholders that are working to advance market-based solutions, energy solutions, and economic growth in Arkansas. Just recently this body approved
and passed out of committee a bill that stated we want more energy and more economic growth in the state. And now here we are today looking at a bill that would restrict more energy and more economic growth in the state. I would agree that industry is open to common sense solutions. This bill would essentially ban projects in the state just to be clear about that. This bill's a a ban. It sends a clear message that Arkansas's not open for
business and we're willing to turn away private investment and forego much needed tax revenue that these projects bring to our communities. Make no mistake, these when projects are going to be built. The only question is where, so this makes it clear that Arkansas is not going to be that. place. That means fewer jobs, less local revenue, fewer opportunities for rural landowners who want to lease their land for additional income. Our organization receives calls from landowners all the time wondering how they can get involved with projects like these farmers, you know,
lots in East Arkansas when developers have chosen Arkansas in part because we historically have not placed unnecessary government red tape on businesses like this bill does. The argument has been made today that wind energy is only viable because of federal subsidies. I certainly have my own. personal opinions about about subsidies, but the reality is that those federal dollars are on the table, whether we like it or not, and the question before us is not whether we pay for those, but whether Arkansas's going to take advantage of those, unlike other states, I do
think it's good for the record to reflect. Arkansas does not have any, any tax credits or subsidies for renewables. Um, $56 million that's the amount of tax revenue that the Delta wind project in Tunica will generate over the life of its project and frankly, you know, I grew up in the Arkansas Delta and I'm very jealous of that. I want those those tax dollars to come to East Arkansas. There is currently a wind project um being discussed in my home county of Lee, and that that
makes me very excited. We know that energy prices are going up. We also know that more energy brings prices down. That's just basic supply and demand. Um, so as someone who was raised in a row crop farm in East Arkansas, I understand firsthand a lot of the concerns that I've heard today about culture, I would love to have more conversations with you all about those. I ask these same questions before I even came to work in this industry, um, and I think they're viable questions, but, um, you know, we know that renewable energy projects don't materially displace agriculture,
Speaker 153
41:58
um, so this, this political, it's become trendy to politically be against these projects. Boyd. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I'm just curious
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
42:06
what your perception is here. So I, I traveled to Oklahoma on a rare occasion. I go to Texas. I fly out to Utah like windmills are all over the place. I'm, it sounds like we have some in Arkansas, but I'm not really familiar. Any, any reason why despite our lack of regulation that we are not overrun with
windmills compared to these other states that do. Yes,
Speaker 152
42:32
sir. It's my understanding that there has recently been new technology developments that allow those wind turbines to be taller, whereas previously Arkansas was maybe not conducive to win because the technology, the turbines would not go that tall. Now they will go that. and so it's, it's opened up that
Speaker 159
42:48
conversation more so than it has been before, so it's not really been our lack of regulation that has
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
42:57
caused people to flock to Arkansas. It's been new
technology is what is bringing people here. Well,
Speaker 150
43:04
generally speaking, Arkansas, it's been asked about permits and zoning earlier and we don't have a lot of that either. A lot
Speaker 152
43:10
of our solar developers have noticed that too, so I think the point still stands. I do.
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
43:16
OK, so, but I mean, you would agree that Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, lots of wind farms out there. I
mean, I mean, and they have regulation, and I think, I think like I said,
Speaker 159
43:28
I think reasonable regulations are a good thing.
Speaker 3
43:35
Thank you, uh, so I'm going to correct you on what you said because the bill we passed out was for reliable dispatchable energy. And uh that is not what you fall in the purview of and Senator Johnson has a
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
43:53
question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Waldrop, um, Did you attend the hearing that
in our late great Joint Energy Committee when the bill that was dealing with
the trying to protect the ducks. Did you, did you attend that hearing? OK. And they talked about this answer that's kind of a follow-up on Senator Boyd's question. He talked about this technology of Have they not forget the heights. That's obviously important because you've got wins at different elevations, but is there not technology, newer technology that lets these turbines be more efficient where before the regardless of the
height, the turbine themselves was limited in its efficiency, and I'm going to throw out some numbers which are just hypothetical, but let's say before you needed uh 7 mile an hour. win to get any generation and now maybe you need 5 mile an hour wind to get significant generation. Is that the kind of progress that's been made with these, these turbines, Senator Johnson, I am not an engineer, nor am I an expert
Speaker 152
45:04
in wind, um, like I said, I think there are some folks that are going to
speak later. I'm not going to pretend to answer any questions that I don't, that I don't know the answer to,
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
45:15
OK, and then I'll move on to my next question if I could, Mr. Chairman. This morning
I made reference to I'm OK with the hog farm on the Liangi River, and I didn't mean to, I know you're from Lee County. I wasn't trying to put it in your backyard, but you understood my point that I was making it. Would it be possible, and this is I'm looking for some common ground on this thing where in certain areas where we
have concerns about tourism like Carroll County perhaps and others we could have a more restrictive regulatory environment than we would, say, for example, in Cross County, Senator Caldwell has told me that things are under construction there are needed and wanted and popular rather than just this broad brush that this bill seems to be using to come up with a
Speaker 152
46:13
regulatory scheme. I do believe in some states they have had conversations about the sea level height um in in
Speaker 180
46:20
some of their planning and regulation conversations so we could set
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
46:25
theoretically again we could set up, say, OK, above this level, meaning in the mountains. the concerns that Senator Irvin made, which are quite legitimate, you know, we, we might not allow that where when it's nice and flat and it's over, you know, in the delta where it's plenty of flat except for Crawley's Ridge, of course,
everybody knows where that is and it's very well marked on all the aviation charts it was a way to, to maybe find some way to, to, uh, I hate to say bifurcate, but to have maybe a two-tiered type of regulatory scheme. Would you see that as possible and where you're your industry would be OK in cases like that, but still allow wind development in other areas. Yes sir, I think that would be much more reasonable.
Speaker 97
47:14
OK, all right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
47:24
Ervin, Thank you. I think it's just a matter of common sense. That this is all being driven because of the
federal subsidies. Wind turbines, wind energy. This is all being driven because of the federal subsidies. And It, it doesn't take a rocket
science or a top level engineer to look at these Montrosities. As monstrosities. Nobody wants this in their backyard. I sure as heck don't want it in the Ozarks. It will destroy. The beauty and the nature of our state. It just, it just will, and I, I mean, I just, you look at it and go, yeah, I want that in my backyard. That's great. It looks fabulous. I mean, no, it's going to disrupt duck hunting, you know that. I mean, I know you can't say that, but it will.
I mean, and it has, I mean the solar fields has completely disrupted, taken tons of farmland out of, out of the equation for to feed ducks and and and to farm to plant rice because of the fuller of of the federal subsidies. I mean, people are going to go where the money is, and it has, it has completely, in my opinion, destroyed so much of the area of of East Arkansas, uh, solar has completely and,
and I find that to be wrong. I mean, cattle farming, cattle, cattle need land to graze. It's not that that it is, it is follow the money, period. It's follow the money. So, You know, you say that this bill is a ban, a complete bans projects in the state of Arkansas. I'd like to know. Exactly why you think in the bill that the way the bill is written that it bans projects in the state of Arkansas. Where in the bill as to why this level of
regulation will, in your words, ban projects in the state of
Speaker 157
49:27
Arkansas. So maybe I'll just go back to to the subsidies. I think,
Speaker 152
49:32
you know, in the same way that Senator Hester's water bill this morning simply allowed entities to compete for funds that are
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
49:39
on the table. I'm speaking to this bill. I'm talking about federal subsidies as it relates to wind, energy and solar energy, and this bill, my question is,
where, in your opinion, does this bill as it is
written, ban projects in Arkansas for wind energy. Well, but what I'm saying is my ask
Speaker 180
49:59
is just to let these projects compete, you know, similar to making it more available earlier. I think there are
Speaker 152
50:06
a couple of pieces in the bill, namely the setbacks, um, can you show me where that is. I'm sorry, Senator Ervin, I don't have a copy of the
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
50:14
bill in front of me. Somebody give her a copy of the bill, please.
Speaker 187
50:23
It's um 121 top tip. Well, she should have already
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
50:34
read it if she's here hosting the
Speaker 187
50:37
bill, right to the neighboring, yeah, I can, I can ask questions. I have the floor. Yes, ma'am. OK,
Speaker 152
50:47
it's we're looking at page 10 on line 4, OK. Um
And Senator Irvin, I would absolutely love to have, you know, being someone who grew up on our ice farm, we still have our rice farm in East Arkansas. Um, I've seen, you know, renewable projects be an opportunity for some. Families to keep their farms in the family. It gives them an additional revenue source, and I, I know that's not what this bill is about today, but I would absolutely love more than anything to have that conversation with you at a, at another time. And what page again? We're back
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
51:27
to the bill and what page, what line? 4.
And OK, and and and exactly why does this language ban
projects? Um, that is just an excessive
Speaker 180
51:40
Number, um, that exceeds the What is kind of a reason what what I would say based off what my folks
Speaker 159
51:51
have told me would be a reasonable amount. The 3 and 5/10 times the total
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
51:59
height of the wind turbine as measured from the ground at its base to its maximum height of the blade tip. Yes,
ma'am. That's going to ban projects in the state
of Arkansas. It will make it a lot more difficult for them to do business here. Yes, ma'am. OK, last question, you just testified that new technology is why that they were coming to the state of Arkansas because they can build these wind turbines higher. So when you say that the new technologies is what's bringing
them to the state of Arkansas because they can, they can be built higher to capture the wind. Right, but if that seems to be actually supporting your, your answer to Senator Boyd. Well, the, the turbines are taller, but if
Speaker 180
52:47
the setback is larger. That means it's 3.5 times more. Does that make sense because it's a taller turbine. So it's,
Speaker 152
52:57
it's actually increasing their setback limits
because the the turbines taller. And the setback is thin more. Yes, ma'am. Oh, OK.
Speaker 3
53:21
Any other questions, saying none. You're dismissed. Thank you. Uh. Next is Richard Williams.
But he is 4 and uh just as a reminder, Mr. Williams, there's 3 minutes and then questions. Thank
Speaker 201
53:48
you very much. I'm Richard Williams. I am a former Carroll County judge. I also am one of the people that Dr. Kerr was speaking of, for a matter of fact, I've most probably been the most involved with it because I started back with it in February of 2023. I'm also this project adjoins my property on three sides. I'm very familiar with the harsh terrains of my 150 something acres of
property there joining it with all those issues. I'm against this project um, since I'm limited, I'm gonna shutdown of some of the things here. First thing is on the regulations, this is a $400 million project. It occupies and I have documentation here from the Arkansas Economic Development Commission from Scout 15,000 acres of property on that mountain ridge. Um How many projects in the state
of Arkansas ever $400 million. 15,000 acres or more. With no regulations. Period. If they don't want any. That's even more so. Uh, no oversight by the state. No oversight by the county. The closest oversight we've come to is that with the Arkansas Game and fish and with the Arkansas Department of Environmental Quality stormwater division.
ADEQ has already cited this project many times for numerous violations of stormwater permits. There's no oversight by Carroll County. No oversight by the Public Service commission because this is not a public utility. It's a private investment industry. There's no oversight, no art enforcement of the Arkansas Fire and Building Code at county or state level currently. I appreciate voting for for Bill 437. You brought up the tax credits.
And about how they affect this job in a lease and I have a copy of. I don't have it with me. I've got a hotel. I can get it for you. If the tax credits go away, this wind company can exit the property with a few days' notice, period. Um, and the, but however, the property owner cannot only the wind company can do it. I'm very familiar with the terrain there. It's very harsh on my property. I've got places I've driven before over the many years I've been there. I'll
drive on a road here a few years ago, I was driving on the road. I had to stop. Where is my road? I got out on the side because I own the entire both sides of the valley. It had shifted trees that are 50 to 80 ft tall, they had shifted all the way to the next bench totally erect like they had just grown there 850 to 80 ft trees, and that's happened at 3 different spots. that I know of. Since then also they've started construction. They've asked, we've asked them what's going to happen with this massive. Building for our world. We have
no public water where where these projects are at. It's wells or springs. I've been there for 25 plus years. I've got a spring, that, OK, time's up. Any questions from the committee, Senator Boyd and then Senator Mc Key. Our
Speaker 205
57:01
Senator Irvin, I'm sorry. I understood County judge here. Understood you'd be
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
57:07
a county judge in Carroll County. Years ago, yes, sir. Very familiar and very active in the county also. All right, so,
Speaker 206
57:14
so this is substantial investment in your
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
57:19
county that you're talking about. What is in here that keeps this, uh, these projects from going forward in Carroll County. Come back again, Mr. Boyd. What what is what is in here that would keep these projects from going forward in Carroll County. Is there anything that's inhibiting property
Speaker 210
57:39
owners' rights. No, sir. The biggest thing is what what's inhibiting it regulations. They do not want any regulations. I do have November of 2023 quorum court meeting. When asked
For a moratorium, our county attorney got up there, spoke this he and his assistant had told the Quorum Court that if they pass this
Speaker 201
58:01
moratorium, you will be sued. You will be going to Little Rock for depositions. You will have to hire bigger law firms the expense of the county because I cannot defend you as county attorney because it's too big of a job. They will sue us. However, the county attorney did not mention to them that we have toward immunity in the state of Arkansas. We have risk management in the
state of Arkansas. If I had not been county judge previously and knew of these issues when the county attorney got through speaking, I would have voted against the moratorium. It was threats. It was not the first one. And this is recorded, by the way,
Speaker 210
58:38
on foreign court records and the news media and some private citizens record these meetings also. OK. So, but again, is there anything
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
58:46
in here that's really limiting property owners' rights, or you just think that by having regulation, you're going to keep
wind out of Carroll County. No, sir, it
Speaker 210
58:56
has nothing to do with limiting property owners' rights. What it does, it gives the adjoining property owner, their property rights, OK. That's where the big thing comes in
Speaker 201
59:05
at. It's a setback you're talking about this 3.5 times the heist. Why does that affect these taller ones because guess what, instead of a 200 to 400 ft wind turbine. 600 ft from my property. Now I've got a 700 ft wind turbine 600 ft from my property. It's going to fall on my
property. They also did not bring up in this lease that I've got where the about the lease payments, the tax credits, also there are health waivers, all these people had to sign. Health issues to their families forever wavered. They cannot sue or anybody else can sue the wind company associated with that property forever. Even 5 owners from now if they're still there. Senator, Senator Irvin and then Senator
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
59:57
just a really quick question. No problem. I'm here because I know we're here a long time, um, did the company do any type of
runoff study. Not that I'm aware of. Are they clear cutting all of the over hundreds
Speaker 201
1:00:12
of acres. I mean stripped to the ground. My well has went dry adjoining it. This well has never been dry. The severe drought of. 2012, I have neighbors
Speaker 210
1:00:22
wells and springs went dry around me. I was giving them water, OK, well,
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:00:29
I mean, the runoff is another big issue because of the topography there and which would create incredible flooding. All you have to do is look what happened in in North Carolina in western North Carolina when that when that when the storms came through and the tremendous amount of runoff that occurred, uh, because of clear cutting and drainage issues because
you have no zoning. in these rural counties. I mean, there, there is no zoning and so there has to be a state regulatory presence, I would
Speaker 200
1:00:59
think. Now may I also add something here about the question about there about the runoffs and all
Speaker 201
1:01:05
where they are building this act is on the very tip of the ridge of the mountain. that runs for miles and they are stripped it completely bare on that point there about runoffs, this county judge, I was educated. I, I'm far
Speaker 203
1:01:18
from an expert, but I've got very informed my road foreman told me they were
Speaker 210
1:01:23
clearing some land. He says, Judge, we're fixing to have flooding next year on this creek down here because the
Speaker 201
1:01:30
trees are no longer sucking up the water that's coming. It's going to be next year, guess what we had roads and bridges washed out in that area where they had just stripped that land up here, and they did it for pasture. These people are doing it for money.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:01:46
I tax credit dollars, OK, and those are primarily gravel roads around this area. Are they gravel roads around this area. It
Speaker 210
1:01:52
runs from State Highway 103 south of
Speaker 201
1:01:55
Green Forest on the ridge for some, it's 4 miles from there to my house, 3 miles
Speaker 200
1:02:02
to the next, so 7 miles of dirt road there and then it continues on if you want to go to Highway 412 for another 4
Speaker 216
1:02:08
miles approximately. Thank you. Senator Flowers. I just wanted
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:14
to know a couple of things. Do you have a copy of this lease that you're referring to? I don't
Speaker 201
1:02:20
have it with me here, but I do. I can get it
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:23
to you. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, well, and would you agree that the property owner has a right to contract for whatever purpose they aren't violating the law.
Speaker 210
1:02:33
Yes ma'am, they do. But however, they don't think they have the right to violate my property rights and it's an issue between you and your neighbors,
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:44
but I, I want to know you're talking about a ridge, I think I've only been up there one time to Carroll
County. Is that where that hotel is famous hotel or something, yeah, it's Eureka Springs,
Speaker 220
1:02:55
Crescent Eureka is that is that Carroll County? Yes, that's the far western end. What we're talking about the, I'm just saying
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:03:04
That's the only time I've been up there great, but uh, so this ridge you're talking about. Is that private property?
Yes, ma'am. OK. And so, and you're talking about your whale ran dry. Yes,
Speaker 223
1:03:22
ma'am, because of this, I can't prove
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:03:25
it is. Well, yeah. Well, it seems to me you could call environmental protection or
the ADEQ to figure that out and then if you own your, your, what's under the ground as well as above the ground. I mean, you might have an action, legal action, but the other thing is you, you were the county judge and you said your county attorney got up there and gave you all. that they would be sued. Sounds like you all have some serious local issues that your county government.
doesn't want to deal with. Would you agree with that? Absolutely, Senator. OK, well, maybe you should be at that quote
unquote meeting tonight. Uh, no, ma'am. When you get
Speaker 210
1:04:17
there, our county judge limits how many people can speak, and we've had meetings where he actually against state law has not allowed public comment at forum court meetings. You can sue him for that now.
Speaker 92
1:04:30
Thank you. Thank you Senator Flowers. Is there any other question, Senator Johnson?
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:04:39
Thank you. And, and Judge, I very sensitive to that and uh You know, there is that First Amendment thing about the right to petition your government for redress of grievance, and it sounds to me like maybe they might look at another county attorney if you got one that says if you do this, you'll get sued because Lord, governments get sued all the time. State governments get sued. So I mean to me this, you can't operate in an environment like that, but I won't tell people in Carroll County how to do if they're risk
averse, that's, that's, that's on there, uh, the, the The question I had was that Uh, you and Senator Boyd were kind of, kind of, I think you weren't getting his point, he maybe wasn't getting your point. I want to come back to. I'm sorry, I said yes sir, please. I'm People, there's no regulation at this moment. And you're concerned that there maybe should be, but I used,
used the example of something falling, one of these things falling across on your property. I mean, I have a neighbor that had a tree fall across my driveway. Now fortunately, he's my friend and we got our chainsaws out and we worked it out, but the point is that it was his tree on his side, and then it fell. Now theoretically, of course, this gigantic When The tower could could fall on your property, but then again it might not.
And I remember seeing like that big and it fell, remember there was a great big Channel 7 tower halfway between here and Pine Bluff that fell one time, but it didn't have to be, you know, I mean, until it fell, it was just fine sticking up in the air, so I'm just, are you saying you, you want Guarantee regulation, or do you want a minimal regulation or some, I mean, I guess it's a matter of degree, is it not about how much protection you
have about kind of a what if situation. The
Speaker 210
1:06:47
what ifs are getting more so because what if if you look, and I've been very much online watching along with other citizens. We're getting more. Collapsing wind
Speaker 200
1:06:56
turbine towers all over the all over the country. It's a numbers game. It's just like if you have two cars out
Speaker 201
1:07:02
on the road, what are the odds you're going to get in a wreck? But if you've got 2000 cars out
Speaker 210
1:07:07
in the same mile, see what I'm saying? But this you know the
Speaker 181
1:07:12
first two cars in the United States ran into each other. It really, really did
Speaker 197
1:07:16
happen, but go ahead, I get your point, but
Speaker 201
1:07:19
it's the setback from the adjoining property owner's property line about the tree, yes, the same property crossroad. I've had trees come across. I've got my chainsaw. tractor out there, my front end loader, picked them up and cleared them off, but how do you the worst thing also about these wind turbines, not just say collapse. Union City, New York, Rexfield, New York. Richard and Linda Mullen farm and last year a neighbor's farm had a lease on it for a wind turbine. It caught on fire for whatever reason.
They're over 1 mile away. The fire from that wind turbine blew over 1 mile to their family farm commercial hay, dairy and beef operation. this past winter we just get through. I talked to Linda and Richard. They had to spend instead of selling hay, they had to purchase over $150,000 of hay to feed their cattle because where these fiberglass shards were at, contaminated their pastures and their contaminated forever because they cannot get them picked up. one of these towers collapsed,
it's not like a cell phone tower up there or a Some kind of terminal tower up on the top of those is a turbine engine that is larger than the size of a school, a full size school bus, the big ones, and up there there are hundreds of gallons of lubricating oil. And this is when they catch on fire. There's where your real fire danger starts, OK? It's not just the fact that it's up there. OK. All right, thank you, Judge. Thank
Speaker 92
1:08:46
you, Mr. Chair. See no other question you're dismissed. Thank you, sir. Thank
you very much and I appreciate your time. Next
Speaker 29
1:08:53
is Josh Curtis This is against. Thank you,
Speaker 233
1:09:05
Mr. Chair and committee, Josh Curtis Association of Arkansas Counties. I will not need 3 minutes. I'm just here to say counties are not normally don't like telling people what to do with their properties as Senator Johnson knows when it comes to extraterritorial jurisdiction,
but we, we don't do a whole lot of permitting. There's some permissive language in here that states that we do some permitting or we can do that, so we would, we'd be opposed to it like that. It also goes down a slipper slope of zoning and counties aren't staffed to do permits to draft permitting things. There's only a couple counties in the state that does zoning, so for that reason I'm speaking against. So Josh the
Speaker 14
1:09:47
minimum setback from the city is 1 mile.
Speaker 3
1:09:54
So they're wanting to put this. In the county, am I correct?
Speaker 233
1:10:00
Well, actually, Senator Johnson, or you or Mr. Chair, y'all just recently passed a uh passed a bill that does away with extraterritorial jurisdiction, so there's not any setbacks at all anymore. Well this bill has a minimum setback from you might as well say
Speaker 3
1:10:16
one of these in a city, right? I'm not speaking on behalf of the city, so this is, this is putting them.
In my back door, so go ahead, Senator Johnson. Thank
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:10:32
you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Curtis, if I'm hearing you correctly. Uh, counties are not
Shall we say geared up to take on the regulatory responsibility that this bill would place upon them is, am I hearing that would allow us, allow us one thing, but there's be having the ability, I mean, you know, Fort Carroll County, they don't even have a attorney that would
defend them if they got sued. That would, that would worry me a lot, but, but the point is that it and again, I'm not, I'm not advocating. For or against regulation of this industry. I'm simply talking about realities here. Counties aren't in a position to do it. So like what you're saying, and other entities may or may not be either. So that's why I'm, I'm, I'm just I'm not, I'm not picking on Senator Hester either, but just saying
that there were, there are things in here that I'm thinking, is this practical? I mean, yes, maybe we can agree that there should be some kind of regulation, but you know it's, it's another one. of those bills that you know it's kind of long and it says some things that are permissive, but everything comes down to practicalities, you know, politics is the art of the possible and counties have limited budgets to do the things that they're constitutionally and their own policy want to do.
So I, I guess you, would you agree? OK, thank you,
Speaker 3
1:12:07
sir. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So Josh, if The counties really don't want, don't want and can't regulate and they don't want this bill to help regulate. Is that
Speaker 235
1:12:18
correct? We're not, we're not advocating for or against state regulations. We just, we
Speaker 233
1:12:24
don't, we don't like putting regulations on our landowners, generally speaking in counties. But
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:12:35
Do you agree that counties can't regulate this
Speaker 14
1:12:39
effectively because of the cost of litigate possible litigation. Um, I, I don't
Speaker 233
1:12:45
think we'd agree with that. You don't
Speaker 22
1:12:48
you think counties can afford litigation. Well.
Speaker 232
1:12:54
Uh, some counties can, some counties can, but some counties are losing population and they're their revenue
Speaker 233
1:13:01
tax revenues is decreasing. I mean, you're
Speaker 3
1:13:05
speaking against a regulatory bill, a statewide regulatory bill, I'm speaking specifically on
Speaker 233
1:13:10
the parts that addresses the counties, not the state regulations that may or may the PSC may or may not impose. All right, thank you, Senator Flowers. Uh, I'd like to know what bill it
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:13:24
is that you referred to that we strip. HB 1510. 1510. I just want to
Check and make sure I
how I voted on it. You got Brazil bill, Senator Hester, no.
Speaker 87
1:13:46
Stubblefield. That's where cities can't have that mild buffer zone that they can zone and regulate. 3 miles. I'm sorry. OK. All right. Thank you, sir. Next, uh, We have I'm not even going to try this last name, Mark.
I don't know. OK. Come and help us with your last
Mark Wiursky
Unverified
1:14:25
name. Just, uh, introduce yourself and who you're with. Yes, sir. My name is Mark Wiursky. And I'm
Speaker 245
1:14:35
a scout clean energy, and I'm here to testify against
the proposed legislation. I'm vice president of Scout Clean Energy, and we're a Colorado-based company. Scout is a renewable energy developer, owner, and operator, and we currently have the Nimbus wind farm in construction in Carroll County. As to date, we've already invested $200 million in the project. The Nimbus wind farm started over 9 years ago to construct a wind farm, you need land. There's an old saying in the oil and gas business, no lease, no grease, and the same holds true
for the wind projects. We started by visiting with landowners, sitting at their kitchen tables, and answering the hard questions. The landowners consult attorneys, family members, and other decision makers to make an informed decision on what is best for the farm, what is best for the ranch, what is best for their property. Why do landowners participate in these projects. Some do it to increase revenue per acre. Some do it for the added security of guaranteed income stream. Others do to ensure passive income to keep
that century farm, that generational ranch in the family. We see it all over the country. The next generation moving to the city to the suburbs, and not returning to the family farm or to the ranch. These renewable energy projects provide the revenue to help keep property in the family for generations to come. These wind turbines take up less than an acre, including the access road. So the farmers can continue to farm. The ranchers can continue grave livestock. This is truly a compatible land use.
Now specific to our project in Carroll County, the Nimbus wind farm has decided on a little over 9000 acres with 30 windmills. We have over 50 landowners that assigned voluntary wind leases and transmission easements. There's a lot of misinformation out there. The Nimbusin project does not have the right of eminent domain. The project is highly regulated through permitting processes here in the state of Arkansas with the FAA as well as with FERC
We will generate over $46 million in economic impact over the life of the project. 15 million is going to those landowners and 30 million is going to increase the tax base through new tax payments. We currently, as of today have over 60 folks working to build this project in Carroll County. At the peak of construction will have over 200 people working on these projects. They're eating, staying, and shopping local and that economic impact is not included in the $46 million.
As drafted, this bill will strip landowners of their ability to use their land and their property as
Speaker 249
1:17:28
they see fit. Imposing a 4 mile setback. Thank
Speaker 92
1:17:34
you, sir. Uh, is there any questions, Senator Flowers? Yes. Can you
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:17:40
describe, we heard from this. professional engineer earlier.
And he spoke about The topography and how deep the footing and
all that is. Can you talk about what steps Scout took To make sure
it would be no collapse. are Other things that
would be detrimental. Uh, and affect the safety, public safety. Yes, Senator, Senator,
Speaker 245
1:18:17
let me address that question for you. So in each one of the turbine locations with 30 wind turbines on the project. We take geotech samples, so the geotech is a core boring that goes into the earth roughly 80 ft, so we drill 80 ft into the earth. Each one of these turbine locations we took roughly 6 to 8 samples, so we look for voids, we look for abnormalities in the subsurface that would ultimately prevent us from installing a wind turbine, so we take geotech at each one of these turbine
foundation locations. We take multiple samples at each one of these turbine Foundation locations. These samples are ultimately taken by professional engineers that ultimately have to stamp and approve the foundation design for the project, so these turbine foundations we drill a hole 80 ft deep. The turbine Foundation itself is only going to be roughly 16 ft deep by 65 ft wide, so we do our due diligence, we do our research, we do it with professional engineers to ensure we're designing the project correctly and that's in
Speaker 254
1:19:19
accordance with industry standards. Yes, ma'am. That's in accordance with industry standards.
Speaker 245
1:19:24
I also want to clarify, we provided the full geotech report and the foundation design, which is almost 200 pages long to the fire marshal here in the state of Arkansas last week. So that week, last week, yes ma'am, so that information is open and available to
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:19:43
fire marshal to do with that, will he just review it and say,
OK, what does he do with it
Speaker 245
1:19:53
beyond that. So it was his request to have it provided now to whom he disseminates and who reviews it to provide comments I
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:20:02
cannot answer that question. OK, and Uh. About the subsidies. Does your company make investments? Yes, yes, ma'am. So
you tell me how do you get these subsidies? Is the project subsidized from the beginning or what? Yeah, so
Speaker 245
1:20:21
let me talk to the subsidies. So we, the company, take all the risks to receive a subsidy. We, the company have to spend $400 million. We have to have $400 million in the ground before we can even make the application to receive a single dollar back. When we make that application, we have to demonstrate that we've used American-made products. We've used American. Labor and we've adhered to a lot of other conditions in order to receive any of that money back, but we the company take on that burden of that $400 million risk
in order to apply for the subsidy that we hope we receive. Senator Johnson. Thank
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:21:01
you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, sir, before the nasty beeper went off. You were
commenting on how the legislation would impose a 4 mile setback. I wanted to hear the rest of your sentence if you could kind of complete that so I could understand what the effect would be of the 4
Speaker 253
1:21:23
mile setback, correct. So within all the folders, we provided to the senators a map.
Speaker 245
1:21:28
And on the map, you will see The turbines and around the turbines that's a half mile area. Or I'm, yeah, that's a half mile area and if you take that area and
Speaker 248
1:21:41
you bring it out even further, that is your entire notice area for the project. So I was not saying setback.
Speaker 245
1:21:48
The 4 miles is your notice area, so the way that the bill is
structured is you're going to hold a public hearing. You have to invite everyone within 4 miles of those turbines and those individuals that could be 3, 3.5
Speaker 248
1:22:02
miles away, get to show up and tell the signed landowners, whether they agree or not with the use of their property, whether they agree or not with signing a voluntary lease. OK, and and these people
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:22:16
are a long way from the actual construction. Yes, sir. OK. All right, it's sounds,
sounds like quite a distance. Would you agree? Yes sir, I agree. Thank
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:22:34
you. Senator Flowers. So hold that map up again. I don't know if it's
in your, so, so the pink. Are your leases. No, ma'am. What does, what does a pink
Speaker 245
1:22:45
represent? The pink represents the 3.5 times tip height, that is in the bill. OK, so what are you saying about the area.
Speaker 264
1:22:59
4 miles out of yeah, so within the pink, if one of those landowners say no. To the
Speaker 245
1:23:05
landowner who signed a lease. They can stop the project. They can stop that turbine being installed. That's the
Speaker 254
1:23:11
way that the bill's drafted. So the pink is where the
Speaker 247
1:23:17
windmills will go. where the windmills are, the black dots. I can't see the black dots. OK. So where the windmills go
Speaker 245
1:23:30
are the black dots, and then under the structure of the bill, you have a 3.5 mile setback from non-participating landowners. That's roughly half mile. So that means any, any landowner there under the pink that says no can stop that landowner from receiving a wind turbine. Where is this 3.5 miles. I see
Speaker 28
1:23:47
3.5 times the total height. So the 3.5 that is page 10 1 A as in alpha.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:24:00
Page line 4 on page 10. That's
Speaker 3
1:24:03
what 3.5 times the total height if you've got a 700 ft, you're talking about uh About
Speaker 151
1:24:10
a half a mile. Yes sir, that's not 3.5 miles. No, sir,
Speaker 253
1:24:16
3.5 times the tippi, not miles. What amounts about times, not 3 miles. No, sir, but the notice is 4 miles. He's talking about.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:24:25
All these people That have not given a lease that
are within the proximity of of these within 4
Speaker 245
1:24:34
miles, then those people can show up to the hearing and tell you what you can and cannot do with your property as well. Is that before your lease? That'd be after the lease, so you have your leases executed, then those folks can show up and tell you what you can and cannot do with your property because the bill requires you to have a public hearing and notice folks within 4
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:24:58
miles. But in the course of You obtaining leases. What was that process like? Did
you have, I mean, was there any participation or interaction with Neighboring landowners. Yes, ma'am. So I asked another individual
Speaker 264
1:25:13
stated, we started with about 15,000 acres. The project has it stands today is a
Speaker 245
1:25:19
little over 9000 acres. So we did speak with more folks. We do have more acreage under lease, but what we've done is we've condensed the project boundary, and we've done that through responsible work with the FAA, so through the process with the FAA, there's concern about a
C-130 training route coming out of the Little Rock Air Force Base, and because Of that military training route we ultimately adjusted the project boundary and we dropped some of that acreage off, so that's how we got from 15,000 acres down to 9000 acres. We're also trying to have a contiguous site. We're trying to minimize how many feet of road we're building, how many underground feet of collection we're trenching in. So that is why the project was reduced. But yes ma'am, we spoke and we have more folks at least than the 9000 will be building on. And you actually have wind turbines built.
Up there in Carroll County now. They're being built as we speak, so foundations are being poured. Roads are being built, underground collection is being trenched in, and to date we've spent $200 million on our project. We object to this bill because it is retroactive, and we've made this large capital investment. Plus
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:26:30
you would be disappointing a lot of these landowners that have lease agreements. Yes, ma'am, we signed these leases 9 years ago,
Speaker 245
1:26:42
and these leases we've had to extend 2 or 3 times, and we keep going back to our landowners asking for extensions, and they just want to see this project get built. Mr. Chair. Senator McKee. I think
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:26:54
the committee's heard everything we need to hear. I'd like to move for immediate consideration. The motion for me to consideration. Mhm Second by Senator Irvin.
Speaker 3
1:27:12
All in favor of the discussion. Go ahead it's not debatable. All in favor say aye. All opposed like sign. Alright, thank you, immediate consideration. So, uh, what's the will of the committee? Motion for adoption as amended. Second by Senator Irvin. All in favor, say I. All
Speaker 22
1:27:42
opposed? No. All right, sorry, Senator, your
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:27:50
bill's failed. Mr. Chair, just for the record, I'd like to note that uh this bill that did away with the County government, uh, right. to exercise our municipality to exercise territorial jurisdiction over an unincorporated area of the county. I voted no. Thank you, ma'am. We're adjourned.
Agenda
REGULAR AGENDA
CALLL TO ORDER
SB437 Hester TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT.
ADJOURN
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — INSURANCE & COMMERCE - SENATE, Mar 18, 2025 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Speaker 3
Speaker 5
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
Speaker 16
Speaker 2
Speaker 23
Speaker 25
Speaker 29
Speaker 31
Speaker 32
Speaker 30
Speaker 45
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
Speaker 47
Speaker 36
Speaker 63
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
Speaker 66
Speaker 68
Speaker 70
Speaker 72
Speaker 85
Speaker 90
Speaker 92
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
Speaker 81
Speaker 112
Speaker 124
Speaker 132
Speaker 130
Speaker 99
Speaker 96
Speaker 87
Speaker 14
Speaker 145
Speaker 148
Speaker 150
Speaker 152
Speaker 153
Speaker 159
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
Speaker 180
Speaker 97
Speaker 157
Speaker 187
Speaker 201
Speaker 205
Speaker 206
Speaker 210
Speaker 200
Speaker 203
Speaker 216
Speaker 220
Speaker 223
Speaker 181
Speaker 197
Speaker 233
Speaker 236
Speaker 235
Speaker 22
Speaker 232
Mark Wiursky
Unverified
Speaker 245
Speaker 249
Speaker 254
Speaker 253
Speaker 248
Speaker 264
Speaker 247
Speaker 28
Speaker 151