Insurance & Commerce - Senate
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Bills discussed (1)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
|
SB437
Act 945
· 4 mentions in agenda, chapter, transcript
Matched: “…vin Sen. Clint Penzo REGULAR AGENDA Number Sponsor Subtitle SB437 Hester TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT.…”
|
TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT. | Hester | Notification that SB437 is now Act 945 |
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- October 8, 2026
Speaker 3
0:30
Senate Insurance and Commerce will come to order. Senator Hester, you
Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
0:50
got an amendment, members, based off of our conversation. And I haven't mentioned it to any of you.
It's just based off of some conversation from earlier today. And what it does is if you've got a current project underway, then you are exempted from setbacks and permitting. But you would still have to cooperate with some of the most important things that I believe as far from the, like, bonding, So you don't just take your tax credits and go home and now the local community is sitting there with these monstrosities
and no one has the financial ability to undo them or make them go away. So I think regardless if you are under construction now or not, I think it is imperative that we put some of these requirements in protection for our local communities. But that's it. Even if you are against this bill, I think you'd be for this amendment because it certainly makes it easier on those currently under construction.
Speaker 3
2:06
Motion by Senator Boyd. Second by Senator McKee. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Okay. Your bill is amended. Senator McKee. Mr. Chairman, I move that we, because of the lengthy list of speakers that we have in
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
2:18
the late hour, I move that we limit debate to two minutes per speaker. Second by
Speaker 3
2:24
Senator Boyd. I have a substitute motion. Senator, your substitute motion. Well,
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
2:36
since so much testimony was given in presenting the bill,
I think it's only fair that they have at least five minutes for each person. I don't know how many people you got signed up. We have nine.
Speaker 16
2:49
We're going to limit it to two minutes, Senator
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
2:53
Flowers. Well, I'd ask that a substitute motion for three minutes. Two minutes is not enough for me to even get my question out, probably. It's not including the questions.
Speaker 2
3:04
It's just including the testimony. Well, I'd still ask
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
3:07
for three minutes. I don't think that's.
Speaker 3
3:10
Motion to amend that to three minutes by Senator Flowers, second by Senator Penzo. SO WE'RE GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT SECONDARY MOTION. ALL IN FAVOR, SAY I. ALL OPPOSED? ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SENATOR FLOWERS. THREE MINUTES LIMITED DEBATE. YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP THAT. WE'RE GOING TO GO TO TESTIMONY AS SOON AS STAFF IS READY FOR THAT TIMER.
we got Barry Sellers against just come up here just passed on this side and introduce yourself and you're recognized and I think you
Speaker 23
4:13
have a letter also Senator Johnson, Chairman Johnson and committee I've turned in a letter for y'all to look at your convenience.
Speaker 25
4:21
I know you've got a lot of people lined up to talk to you, so I want to let y'all have my information I have. And if you've had a chance to look at that, I sent that last night, and then I brought a copy today, and I'll be glad to answer any questions on that. But
Speaker 3
4:39
I ask that you vote no for this bill as it is. Thank you, sir. Is there any
Speaker 29
4:46
questions? All right. Thank you, sir. Our next is Nick Sparks.
Nick Sparks
Unverified
5:01
Good afternoon, committee. My name is Nick Sparks. I am a developer for Triple Oak Power but
Speaker 32
5:11
also a resident of Arkansas. Chairs Johnson and Vice Chair Boyd and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony, albeit shortened in the first speaker. As I said, I'm Nick Sparks, Manager of Business Development for Triple Oak Power. We are a U.S.-based clean energy company with energy development projects in 22 states, including here in Arkansas.
I live in northwest Arkansas, Farmington, with my wife, who is a lifelong Arkansan, an alumni of
Nick Sparks
Unverified
5:37
the University of Arkansas, and our four children. I am very grateful, very grateful to be able to provide for my family, develop wind projects across the central U.S. and here in my home state. I am currently the developer for an early stage project in Clay County. Triple Oak also has a later stage project in Cridin County, and if passed, the restrictions
of this bill would prevent both of these projects from moving forward. Denying local landowners additional income for years to
Speaker 32
6:09
come, lease payments, and county significant tax revenues. And I really wanted to touch on the lady's comment earlier about the tax dollars. The tax dollars are real. I developed in Oklahoma, and I think in 2023 there was over $90 million paid to counties from wind farms. One of the projects that I'm working on now, we just got a tax estimate back. The first 10 years, Craig County, Oklahoma is going to receive $45 million.
Those are real numbers. Now, how that's dispersed, that's up to the assessor and all that. But there's real money that comes with these projects. You know, we are dedicated to responsible project siting and development. Every project we develop undergoes years of thorough studies. This includes planning, environmental, economic, cultural review, careful engineering. SB 437 creates a slew of new processes and regulations and setbacks for wind turbines. And I really wanted to kind of talk about long grain, and I know I'm short on time,
but we've completed multiple years of biological studies, including avian and bat studies, consulting with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife, the Arkansas Game and Fish on the topic of waterfowl, as well as the Crittenden County Wildlife Refugee Management. We have relationships with our landowners. This is what it's all about. Your constituents in Clay County, I've got to know some of them, and that's what I love about this job is the relationships and the communities that I get to go in. and in our crittenden county project that's over 23 000 acres we've done soil surveys hydrology
studies our project team regularly meets with the county the quorum court the planning commission this is not a sign of lease we we go away and come back to construction this is part of the community we've
Nick Sparks
Unverified
7:54
had outreach to non-participating landowners we've been open and transparent and that's what we stand on and so we've reached out to the ag pilots we heard concerns
we've had dinners with them. And we're poised to go to construction late 2026 on that project. Thank you,
Speaker 3
8:09
Mr. Parks. Your time is up. Is there any questions? Go ahead, Senator Flowers.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
8:17
So you mentioned that you have done consult
with about ecology and stuff. Can you talk a little bit about
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
8:28
that? Is there a review by a certain agency, state agency? Yes, so before we go
Speaker 32
8:36
into an area, we do a lot of desktop studies to kind of understand the environment. Once we progress with the land leasing, we know our project boundaries, we get to a point
where we actually do hire biologists, they do nest surveys, eagle surveys, they understand the bat. There is consulting with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife, the Game and Fish. It just depends on county by county what the habitat is and what kind of requirements, boxes you have to check or mitigate, anything like that. So yeah, we're in consultation with those agencies early and often. So mainly the U.S.
Nick Sparks
Unverified
9:12
Fish and Wildlife and the Arkansas Gammon Fish and just kind of whatever, you know, environmental factors you have in that county.
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
9:20
Do those agencies sign off or approve or what type of review do they have? Yeah, they look at our site
Speaker 32
9:26
plan. I don't know that at the federal level there are some permits that we have to get for if there are certain bat species in that area we have to get permits. Eagles, if there's going to be an eagle take permit, that's a review process where they would give us a permit. Yes. Senator Pinzo? Senator Irvin?
Thank you. Do you work in other states? Yes. Yes, ma'am. I work in the central
Speaker 45
10:02
U.S., South Dakota, Southern Illinois, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and South Dakota. Okay. Other
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
10:08
states, do you work in any states that have state regulations? Yes, some of those states
Speaker 32
10:14
do have state siting bills or removal bonds or things like that. So, yeah, every state is different, but some have nothing and some have some.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
10:25
And based on the work that you do in these other states, you say some have something and some have
different. How does this compare to those states that you work in? So
Speaker 47
10:39
to get into the specifics of the bill, the setbacks is pretty restrictive. You know, I don't
Speaker 32
10:45
have it in front of me, but I think some of the language, again, we're not opposed to reasonable citing. We're not opposed to reasonable rules to follow.
but I think some of the intentions of this bill is not to be reasonable. But again, deciding what is that science or what's that setback based on? Because a lot of times the industry uses 1.1, you know, so that's just one thing that comes to mind. There was another couple of
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
11:14
topics that are just too kind of restrictive. And then I have one last question. In
previous meeting, we talked about the, which is something I'm very concerned about is personal aviation and the size of these structures and how that's very disruptive,
particularly if they're placed on top of a ridge and a mountaintop. It's a sizable obstruction. Are there any provisions that you work in these other states that deal directly with that? Yeah, that all comes
Speaker 32
11:49
from the FAA or the Department of Defense. So before you ever cite a project, you're already screening for airports, private aircraft, you know, airports.
So when you get to a certain point, you'll submit FAA filings, turbine locations to the FAA. Again, the lady earlier mentioned that that's recommended. The FAA tells us where these turbines can go and not go. They're going to look at it. They're going to study the aircraft pathways. They're going to study the airports in that region. If there's any military assets, the Department of Defense is going to look at that. This is not just we put turbines wherever they go. They're going to make sure it does not interfere with airspace that would impede the traffic of aircraft,
that would mitigate any safety issues that aircraft would encounter if they come up on a wind farm. So all of that is
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
12:42
regulated by the FAA and the Department of Defense as far as airspace. But do they regulate, I mean, do they look at air traffic only for commercial, Or are they also looking at private? Because, I mean, I just don't feel like
the project in Carroll County took any of that into consideration with where it's located.
Speaker 36
13:04
Yeah, so the smaller airports you have, and I'm not
Speaker 32
13:09
an aviation expert, but you have different classes of airspace. And so those are regulated differently. Like XNA, you're probably not going to
Speaker 45
13:19
get a wind project sited around Bentonville or Cave Springs because
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
13:25
it's in very heavily controlled airspace. I'm not worried about urban areas.
I'm worried about rural areas where there are mountain ranges that already pose significant danger to private aviation
and small airports, you have a very, you have, you have a very, you have a personal airline that flies out of Harrison, Arkansas, that has direct flights. There are people literally that work in the Middle East and the oil fields that live in Harrison, Arkansas, because they can jump on a, on a plane out of Harrison, Arkansas, and fly to Dallas or St. Louis and catch a direct flight to Dubai. That is the type of issue I'm talking about. I'm not talking about XNA. I'm not talking about Little Rock Airport. I'm talking about my area where I live in the state of Arkansas
and how it's already dangerous and how that seemed to have never been ever taken into consideration. So my question very specifically would be, you know, private, small, this is a commercial airline, But it is a very small Learjet commercial air. Yes, no, I understand. And, yeah, Triple Oak is not developing
Speaker 32
14:41
in Carroll County. I want the record to state that.
We're in the Delta mainly. But the FAA will look at all traffic patterns and whether that's a – I assume you're talking about Southern Airways. Is that the airline? Thank you. So, again, that's commercial. They're probably operating under some commercial. So, yeah, they're going to look at that flight path. There's going to be different tiers of airspace that they would look at over the Ozarks. And, again, I'm just talking in general. If a company submits turbine locations in Carroll County or, you know, Hot Springs or Clay County,
the FAA is going to review those and give you a determination of hazard or a no determination of hazard. If you get a determination of hazard, there could be mitigation efforts that you would have to submit to get those turbine locations. But, yeah, the FAA has the final say unless there's no
Speaker 3
15:36
DOD assets airspace in that area. Okay, thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Sparks? Seeing none, thank you. You're dismissed. Next, we have Dr. Bradley Kerr for the bill.
Speaker 63
15:55
Introduce yourself, and you're recognized. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
16:00
you for the opportunity to speak for you today. My name is Bradley Kerr. I'm here to speak in favor of the Wind Energy Development Act, and my support will be from the perspective of a professional engineer and professional technologist. First, let me briefly convey what makes me able to speak from that qualification standpoint. I have a Bachelor of Science from the University of Arkansas, a Master of Science in mechanical engineering from Texas A&M University, a bachelor's in business administration from
Rice University, a doctorate in mechanical engineering from Texas A&M University. Additionally, I'm a registered professional engineer licensed to practice in Arkansas and Texas. I'm a private pilot instrument rated. So my entire professional career has been dealing with the energy industry and regulations within the energy industry, and in particular, interpreting and following those regulations within
Speaker 66
16:52
the energy industry. That has covered technology development, operations management, and financial modeling, all of which are guided by various regulations.
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
17:03
All professional engineers like myself were legally and ethically bound to follow rules, regulations, standards, and best practices. As a professional engineer, everything that I encounter, all problems that are brought before me, there is a rule, a law, a standard that I can go back to and tie my determination of how I came up with that answer back to. Yet none of these principles exist in Arkansas. So the engineer that's working on this wind turbine versus the
engineer that's working on that wind turbine versus the engineer working on another wind turbine are left to their own discretion as to what they're going to use as the basis of their calculations, as the basis of how am
Speaker 66
17:51
I going to make this safe for the population. So when I look at
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
17:56
it, I find that that is a major gap in Arkansas. Not only are professional engineers left without guidance, what we've seen with this project, particularly in Carroll County, is that the absence of regulation has left state
Speaker 66
18:08
and local authorities without the necessary
jurisdiction and without the necessary tools to perform their mandated services. When you go to a local jurisdiction or a local authority and ask for an opinion, there's no law. I
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
18:29
can't help you. So in engineering, all projects involve trade-offs, attributes such as safety, strength,
Speaker 66
18:35
reliability, economics, and so on. And they all have to be considered simultaneously, but without
bias, with the exception of one. Above all, the safety and
Speaker 70
18:45
protection of the public must avail. That is the mandate of an engineer. All
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
18:51
of the other attributes and choices and desired outcomes are of secondary concern.
Speaker 66
18:56
Maintaining this importance of safety first is the role fulfilled by regulation, oversight, and enforcement in all other industrial applications within the state. As an example, consider we heard earlier about oil and gas, one of the most heavily regulated
Speaker 70
19:13
businesses in the country. They thrive under regulation.
Speaker 3
19:18
Thank you, sir. Time is up. Senator McKee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some discussion has
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
19:24
occurred based on the setbacks, and you said you work in surrounding states as well? Yes, sir. So you're familiar with wind turbines in other states? Yes, sir. Are there any differences between the ones erected in other states and the ones proposed for arkansas or that have been erected in arkansas so to the best of my knowledge
Speaker 66
19:43
the ones that are proposed in arkansas are the largest turbines that have been
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
19:48
proposed in the united states to date how tall are those so the are you talking hub height or tip height hub height is going to range if you look at the material
Speaker 66
19:58
that's in here they're going to talk in meters 140 to 150 plus meters and then the blade we're we're in we're in the u.s we're in the u.s but that's THAT'S THEIR MATERIAL, I HAVE TO USE THEIR QUOTES. ROUND NUMBERS, 550 FEET TALL TO THE HUB, ROUND NUMBERS 690 FEET, 698 FEET TO THE TIP
OF THE BLADE STANDING ABOVE THE HUB. SO YOU'RE TALKING SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET TALLER THAN THE SIMMONS BANK BUILDING TO GIVE YOU
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
20:23
A REFERENCE ON HEIGHTH. WOULD THAT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE POSSIBLE SETBACKS THAT ARE INCLUDED IN THE BILL? Would that cause the setbacks in this bill to maybe be different from setbacks required in
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
20:37
other states? No, sir. The setbacks that I have seen are uniform in that it's to
Speaker 70
20:42
the tip of the highest blade height the setback is calculated from that point,
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
20:46
unless you want to specify otherwise. No, I just want to make sure I understand. Sorry. The
Speaker 85
20:57
setbacks in this bill, are they similar to setbacks in other
Speaker 3
21:02
states? Similar to setbacks in other states. Okay. Thank you. So does it have, engineering-wise, with the height of these for our state, does that have a bearing on the footprint and the depth of the footing for these particular urbans?
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
21:18
Absolutely. The mass of the structure that's being built is significantly larger as you go higher. That is one of the many components to go into a calculation. The other is going to be, is
Speaker 66
21:33
the terrain and the soil structure, the underlying geology, what can it support? And that's where you get into hydrology studies and geologic studies and borehole core samples. And then, assuming there's any regulation, how do you use that information to then apply design standards
to figure out what does the footing need to be? How big? How deep? How wide? Does there need to be piers that go into the further into the subterrain? For example, Carroll County, extremely karst terrain. I've seen pictures of the side of bluffs that, you know, people say like Swiss cheese, but literally like Swiss cheese. I've talked to water well drillers up there. One of the regulations in Arkansas is you have to place casing to 80 feet or into competent rocks. Sometimes that may be hundreds of feet in Carroll County before they're even able to get a piece of casing into the ground
for a water well. Now we're talking about building something that's nearly 600 feet tall and weighs how much? On top of a mountain ridge that has wind blowing on it constantly trying to knock it over. The
Speaker 3
22:47
terrain is a very important consideration. Without the pilings what would you eastern Arkansas compared to western Arkansas, what would the depth of just the footing without
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
22:58
pilings, what would you assume? I would be, as a professional engineer, I'd be remiss
Speaker 66
23:06
to make an assumption without the geologic bore knee-jerk reaction. You don't have near the rock structure that you do there, so it's really a 50-50 question on clay content versus rock content, and then how much load-bearing surface and how much load-bearing capability does that soil construction have, which you can only figure out by taking samples, having hydrology work done,
having the geotech work done, having the competency of that soil classified for
Speaker 70
23:34
you to know how to build a foundation or footing. So
Speaker 3
23:40
no footing is the same and it all depends on the soil structure. No footing
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
23:46
is the same across the state. And even further, no footing would be the same from one location to
Speaker 66
23:52
another within the same county. You can go to, for example, we'll use Carroll County again. You can go to one mountain ridge and it's primarily sandstone.
You can go down the valley and right over. I mean, you hit a golf ball that far and it's shale. you go over here and it's clay based so each individual site needs a individual study for something this large to be able to say okay this is designed for this
Speaker 3
24:23
location can you can you give me any kind of indicator of the depth of footing on a on a typical 400 foot tall structure it no
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
24:35
sir because it all depends on where you're putting it right are
Speaker 66
24:39
you going to get upon sand or are you building it upon a granite foundation? Small turbines with competent soils below it. Depth may be, the depth of the concrete may be 14 to 16 feet. Diameter may be 60 to 70 feet in diameter. So you're talking something two to three times the size of this room of concrete and steel buried in the ground to just simply try and hold this thing up. All right.
Speaker 92
25:06
Is there any other questions? Senator Boyd, do you?
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
25:11
So this is a lot of new regulation for Arkansas. You said you're from Texas, so presumably you've worked in Texas? No, sir. I'm from Arkansas. I currently live in Texas. Right. But have you done work in Texas? I'm licensed to practice in Texas and Arkansas, yes. So, I mean, can you give me some kind of idea of how this matches up with a state like Texas? I mean, are we, like, overdoing it
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
25:34
or we're about the same size? So the final point that I had to make before the
Speaker 66
25:39
infamous beeper there was that when I look at the regulations for this versus any other energy industry versus other states, I find this very reasonable.
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
25:50
And I think this is a very reasonable package for go forward.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
26:00
Senator Flowers. So have you inspected the project up there in Carroll County?
No, ma'am. It's private property. Have you seen any studies that may have been submitted to U.S.
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
26:14
Wildlife? No, ma'am. The studies that the only information that is really available is what's available publicly.
There has been an incomplete study that I'm aware of that was submitted to the Federal Wildlife Commission. They came back with to be determined and still under investigation. That's what is on their website as of today. I do believe that there has been some determination made from the FAA for some of the sites there. But as far as any type of geologic or geotech studying, we have not seen it. I am aware that it has supposedly been conducted.
And we have asked for a copy of that to see what that looks like, but we don't know at this point in time what is contained in there or how even that determination was made. Who is we? So it would be myself, any of the other contingents that are here for the bill, some of the JPs in Carroll County that have been watching over this project for a while, concerned citizens that are nearby neighbors of the of the locations where their wind farms are
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
27:24
going up. Do you know whether Carroll County has
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
27:28
a zoning board? Do they have a zoning board or not? I do not know. Are
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
27:36
there any zoning laws? There are not. Could not the local officials create some zoning regulations yes
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
27:44
ma'am they they could create local zoning do you know they've tried they have attempted and quite quite frankly due to the threat of ongoing lawsuits from the wind farms
the jps have that's your opinion now come on no ma'am that's that's what the jps will claim to us on in the court are the jps here tonight it's a quorum court meeting there's no jp here there's a quorum meeting scheduled the the the wind farm that is there they're up for debate tonight at the quorum court is is uh some issues with the wind farm each jp received from the wind farm that is there within the last week a letter informing them that if they voted for the regulation
Speaker 112
28:28
that was proposed they would be sued do you have a copy of the letter do we have
Speaker 3
28:38
a copy of the letter yes ma'am I'd like to see we can get you a copy so if we have that letter we have that letter I want staff to make a copy for all the members
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
28:53
to get it from Miss Angelina all right is there any other questions Senator Irvin so thank you I I go back to yes I'm
concerned about the avi the aviation private airline but I'm also concerned about the topography and the cave systems so the
Ozarks particularly and we just had a bill about this, a karst topography. I live in this area and so
from time to time even in my own driveway I have what's called wet weather springs and because of a karst topography, limestone, the water
will carve out caves and you don't know that you're building on top of a cave until it's too late. Kind of like a sinkhole in the state of Florida. Florida has a lot of sinkholes because they have the same level of topography. So if you
were to try to build a wind turbine in the state of Florida, it would be a really stupid idea because there's no possible way you could go deep enough and wide enough to build that size of a concrete base, generally speaking. It's very difficult to do and there's tons of regulations involved because of it and I know that for a fact my daughter helped build the Blue Origin rocket manufacturing facility in Cape Canaveral and so in order to hold the weight of a rocket
you had a tremendous pour of concrete and steel reinforcement. Anyway but to do that on top of our cave system I can't imagine what that would that would destroy like Blanchard Springs Caverns is a great clear example of that and if somebody were to put this wind turbine on top of lancer springs caverns you would destroy you know what i would consider one of the wonders of the world i mean it's just an incredible cave system that we have up there so i just i'm not sure from your
perspective if you can talk to that um about the the the karst topography and how drastically affected it would be. So from a I'm not a subsurface
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
30:55
geologist so I would be remiss to tell you that I can explain competently what the geology in Carroll County is and I wouldn't try. I will tell you that from projects that I have worked on in the past where we have had to consider karst topography
there there are surveys I mean some of them are even satellite surveys where you look for MOVEMENT IN THE GROUND OVER SEVERAL YEARS, I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING JUST TINY MILLIMETERS, BUT I'VE HAD STRUCTURES BEFORE, INDUSTRIAL RIGS THAT WERE OPERATING, AND MUCH LIKE YOU SAID, SEVERAL FEET AWAY, THE GROUND OPENS UP, AND THERE'S A 15, 20, 30-FOOT HOLE THERE. I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN OIL AND GAS WELLS THAT HAVE DRILLED INTO CARS TERRAIN AND HIT ONE OF
these caves or one of these karst features and it's been uncontrollable the the the air that would come out of or there wasn't much gas there because it's very shallow but just compressed air over time that has gathered and come there. Getting to your question specific about Carroll County the only thing as a professional engineer that I can do or that any
Speaker 66
32:06
engineer that is working on this should do is take the core samples that are taken at each specific site and take the analysis that done by an independent lab to figure out the strength of the soil and then calculate what do
I need to be able to support this structure on top of that. It's the same thing you do when you get a house built. It's the same thing you do when you build
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
32:29
a road. It's the same thing you do when you build a bridge. Thank you. And now we're talking
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
32:35
about the biggest things in Arkansas. Yeah and I don't want to belabor it but I mean I just can tell you the examples in the Ozarks. The whole entire ozark region is what we're describing here and like at top of the rock they had a driving range that literally sank and there yeah and it literally sank and he excavated all of it but it
completely collapsed because of the car and no one knew it was there and nobody
Speaker 121
32:56
knew it was there until it collapsed that
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:04
that's that's pretty senator flowers you mentioned what should be done before these decisions are made to build Do you know that
the company that has built up there in Carroll County has not done
Speaker 124
33:19
that? We have been told by the other state officials that a geotech report is forthcoming.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:26
So you don't know whether they did it or not? We
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
33:33
don't know whether they did it or not. And you don't know what is in it if they did do it? WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE REQUESTED, WE BEING THE GROUP THAT'S HERE, WE HAVE REQUESTED THAT THOSE DOCUMENTS BE SHARED FOR APPROXIMATELY
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
33:45
10 MONTHS NOW. YOU SAY IT'S FORTHCOMING. IS IT A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY THAT IS
REQUESTED? FORTHCOMING FROM THE STATE FIRE MARSHAL. FROM THE STATE FIRE MARSHAL? YES, MA'AM. AND SO YOU CAN GET IT THROUGH FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT FROM THE FIRE MARSHAL, PROBABLY, OR HE WILL PROBABLY GIVE IT TO YOU.
PORTIONS OF IT, YES, MA'AM. And I wanted to know, have you done any
kind of survey up in Carroll County? It seems like Carroll County is what you're focused on, at least Senator
Irvin. And I understand her concern because she's from up there. Have you done some surveying up there? Define surveying for me, ma'am. Well, you're a professional engineer. Yes, ma'am. Have you done any kind of studies to look at the soil, look at all
the things that you said have to be considered?
Speaker 132
34:36
No, ma'am. You're talking about millions of dollars that would have to be spent to do that. So you haven't
Speaker 130
34:40
done it? Thank you. A private individual wouldn't be able to. It's just a simple
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
34:45
question. Yes, ma'am. Either have or not. You work with other companies. You could
Speaker 99
34:49
do it. No, ma'am. We can't. It's private land. We wouldn't
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
34:52
be allowed to do it. Well, you could have bought the land or bought a lease or asked
Speaker 96
34:56
them to let me do a study. No, ma'am. THE COMPANY THAT'S THERE HAS HAD THE LEASES UNDERWRAPED FOR OVER 10 YEARS UNDER NDA. SO NOBODY EVEN KNEW THEY WERE THERE.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
35:03
BEFORE THEY GOT THE LEASH, YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT IF YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT
ANY KIND OF PROJECT GOING ON UP THERE OR ABOUT TO BE EMBARKED ON.
Speaker 96
35:12
NO, THAT WOULD BE ABOUT, LIKE, ME ASKING WHAT IS THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION GOING TO CONTAIN IN TWO YEARS. YOU COULD ASK US. WE COULD PROBABLY TELL YOU
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
35:26
SOMETHING. I COULD. THANK YOU, SENATOR FLOWERS. SENATOR MCKEE. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So as a licensed engineer, do you prefer building projects where everybody can build to their own specifications and design attributes?
Or do you prefer having a
set of plans and guidelines up front so that you know that you're competing against folks
Bradley Kerr
Unverified
35:45
that are all planned by the same rules? So it's not a matter of preference nor a matter of competition. It's a matter of, from my perspective and my license requirement, it's simply a matter of safety. And that is based on centuries of education, engineering, scientific discovery. And then when something comes up, whether it's, as I said before, a house, a road, a bridge,
all of these telephone poles for something even as simple, there are regulations that then when all of a sudden,
Speaker 66
36:15
hey, you're going to build that, how does an engineer over here know to do what needs to be done versus this engineer over here? So it's not a matter of preference, it's that there is in a regulatory body, there is, for example, let's go oil and gas, there's the API. They come out with standards. States and even the federal government adopts those standards. There are industry best practices that are generated by the wind industry and by proponents and oppositions of the wind that have come together and said,
These is what we think are best practices, but we're not even talking about those being used. One more, Mr. Chairman. So there's several
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
36:57
other people signed up to speak. Will they be able to come up here and tell us examples of where these regulations are more draconian and different from other states? That's
Speaker 66
37:09
a difficult question to answer because, as was stated this morning, the regulations are based on what other states have adopted. And that was the way to make it as palatable as possible.
When you look at what are other surrounding states that have had these industries around for a long time,
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
37:27
what is palatable to those publics? So to your knowledge, the wind industry that is looking at developing in Arkansas is operating under similar standards in every other state that they're operating in? To my knowledge, yes. Thank you.
Speaker 87
37:44
Thank you, sir. You're dismissed, sir. Thank you. Yes
Speaker 14
38:05
They're waiting on an email. We'll get that
Speaker 145
38:09
to you as soon as soon as we can Alright,
Speaker 3
38:14
thank you. So next we will go to Lauren Waltrip,
Speaker 148
38:35
Yeah, just bend that thing over pretty good. Just introduce yourself and who you're with and you're recognized Thank you, mr. Chairman, and I
Speaker 150
38:48
do think that there are some other Folks here from industry that can clarify some of the conversations that some of
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
38:55
the more technical conversations that have come up so far But thank you. Mr. Chairman members of the committee. My name is Lauren Waldrop I'm the executive director of the Arkansas Advanced Energy Association we represent a broad coalition of businesses developers and stakeholders that are working to advance market-based solutions
energy solutions and economic growth in arkansas just recently this body approved and passed out of committee a bill that stated we want more energy and more economic growth in the state and now here we are today looking at a bill that would restrict more energy and more economic growth in the state i would agree that industry is open to common sense solutions this bill would essentially ban projects in the state just to be clear about that this bill is a
ban it sends a clear message that arkansas is not open for business and we're willing to turn away private investment and forego much needed tax revenue that these projects bring to our communities make no mistake these wind projects are going to be built the only question is where so this makes it clear that arkansas is not going to be that place that means fewer jobs less local revenue fewer opportunities for rural landowners who want to lease their land for additional income. Our organization receives calls from landowners all the time wondering how they can get involved
with projects like these farmers, you know, lots in East Arkansas. Wind developers have chosen Arkansas in part because we historically have not placed unnecessary government red tape on businesses like this bill does. The argument has been made today that wind energy is only viable because of federal subsidies I certainly have my own personal opinions about about subsidies but the reality is that those federal dollars are on the table whether we like it or not and the question before us is not whether we pay for those but whether Arkansas is going to take advantage
of those unlike other states I do think it's good for the record to reflect Arkansas does not have any any tax credits or subsidies for renewables 56 million dollars that's the amount of tax revenue that the Delta wind project in Tunica will generate over the life of its project and frankly you know I grew up in the Arkansas Delta and I'm very jealous of that I want those those tax dollars to come to East Arkansas there is currently a wind project being discussed in my home county of Lee and that that
makes me very excited we know that energy prices are going up we also know that more energy brings prices down that's just basic supply and demand so as someone who's raised in a row crop farm in east arkansas i understand firsthand a lot of the concerns that i've heard today about agriculture i would love to have more conversations with you all about those i asked these same questions before i even came to work in this industry and i think they're viable questions but um you know we know that renewable energy projects don't materially
Speaker 153
41:53
displace agriculture um so this this political it's become trendy to politically
thank you time's up against these projects senator boyden thank you
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
42:01
mr chair so i'm just curious what your perception is here so i travel to oklahoma on a rare occasion i go to texas i fly out to utah like windmills are all over the place i'm it sounds like we have some in arkansas but i'm not really familiar any any reason why despite our lack of regulation that we are not overrun with windmills compared to these other states that do?
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
42:27
Yes, sir. It's my understanding that there has recently been new technology developments that allow those wind turbines to be taller, whereas previously Arkansas was maybe not conducive to wind because the turbines would not go that tall. Now they will go that tall until it's
Speaker 159
42:43
opened up that conversation more so than it has been before. So it's not really been our
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
42:52
lack of regulation that has caused people to flock to Arkansas. It's been new technology is what is bringing people here.
Speaker 150
42:59
Well, generally speaking, Arkansas, it's been asked about permits and zoning earlier, and we don't have a lot of that either.
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
43:05
A lot of our solar developers have noticed that too. So I think the point
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
43:11
still stands. I do. Okay. So, but I mean, you would agree that Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, lots of wind
farms out there. I mean, and they have regulation? Yes, and I think, like
Speaker 159
43:23
I said, I think reasonable regulations are a good thing. Thank you.
Speaker 3
43:30
So, I'm going to correct you on what you said. Yes, sir. Because the bill we passed out was for reliable, dispatchable energy. And that is not what you fall in the purview of. And Senator Johnson has
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
43:48
a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Waldrop, did you attend the hearing
that in our late great Joint Energy Committee when the bill that was dealing with the trying to protect the
ducks? Did you do to attend that hearing? Yes, sir. Okay, and they talked about this answer that's just kind of a follow-up on Senator Boyd's question. He talked about this technology have they not forget the heights that's obviously important because you've got winds at different elevations but is there not technology newer technology that lets these turbines be more efficient where before the regardless of the height the turbine themselves was limited in its
efficiency and I'm gonna throw out some numbers which are just hypothetical but let's say before you needed seven mile an hour wind to get any generation and now maybe you need five mile an hour wind to get significant generation. Is that the kind of progress that's been made with these turbines? Senator Johnson, I am not an engineer nor am
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
44:59
I an expert in wind. Like I said, I think there are some folks that are going to speak later. I'm not going to pretend to answer any questions that I don't know the
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
45:09
the answer to you. Okay and then I'll move on to my next
question if I could Mr. Chairman. This morning I made reference to I'm okay with a hog farm on the Lee Angale River and I didn't mean to I know you're from Lee County I wasn't trying to put it in your backyard but you understood my point that I was making it would it be possible and this is I'm looking for some common ground on this thing where in certain areas where we have concerns about tourism like Carroll County perhaps and others we could have a more restrictive regulatory environment than
we would say for example in Cross County and Senator Caldwell has told me the things that are under construction there are needed and wanted and popular rather than just this broad brush that this bill seems to be using to come up with a
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
46:09
regulatory scheme. I do believe in some states they've had conversations about the sea level
Speaker 180
46:15
height in some of their planning and regulation conversations.
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
46:20
So we could set theoretically again we could set up say okay above this level meaning in the mountains is the concerns that Senator Irvin made which are quite legitimate we might not allow that where when it's nice and flat and it's over you know in the delta where it's plenty flat except for Crowley's Ridge of course everybody knows where that is and it's very well marked on all the aviation charts uh it was a way to to maybe find some way to to I hate to say bifurcate but to to have maybe a two-tiered type of regulatory scheme would you
would you see that as possible and where your your industry would would be okay in cases like that but still allow the wind development in other areas? Yes, sir. I think that would be much
Speaker 180
47:07
more reasonable. Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr.
Speaker 97
47:09
Chairman. Senator Irvin. Thank you. I think
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
47:19
it's just a matter of common sense that this is all being driven because of the federal subsidies.
wind turbines, wind energy, this is all being driven because of the federal subsidies.
And it doesn't take a rocket science or a top-level engineer to look at these monstrosities as monstrosities. Nobody wants this in their backyard. I sure as heck don't want it in the Ozarks. It will destroy the beauty and the nature of our state. It just, it just will.
And I mean, I just, you look at it and go, yeah, I want that in my backyard. That's great. It looks fabulous. I mean, no, it's going to disrupt duck hunting. You know that. I mean, I know you can't say that, but it will. I mean, and it has, I mean, the solar fields has completely disrupted, taken tons of farmland out of, out of the equation for, to feed ducks and, and, and to farm, to plant rice because of the, of the, of the federal subsidies. I mean, people are going to go where the money is. And it has, it has completely, in my opinion, destroyed so much of the area of, of East Arkansas,
solar has completely. And, and I find that to be wrong. I mean, cattle farming, cattle need land to graze. It's follow the money. Period. It's follow the money. So you say that this bill is a ban, it completely bans projects in the state of Arkansas. I'd like to know exactly why you think in the bill that the way the bill is written that it bans projects in the
state of Arkansas. Where in the bill as to why this level of regulation will in your words ban projects in the state of
Speaker 157
49:22
Arkansas? So maybe I'll just go back to the subsidies. I think
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
49:27
you know in the same way that Senator Hester's water bill this morning simply allowed entities to compete for funds
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
49:34
that are on the table. I'm speaking to this bill. I'm talking about federal subsidies as it relates to wind energy and solar energy and this bill my question is where in your opinion
does this bill as it is written ban projects in Arkansas for wind energy?
Speaker 180
49:54
Well but what I'm saying is my ask is just to let these projects compete you know similar
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
50:01
to making it more available earlier i think there are a couple pieces in the bill namely the setbacks um can you show me where that
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
50:09
is i'm sorry senator ervin i don't have a copy of the bill in front of me somebody give
Speaker 187
50:24
her a copy of the bill please it's uh 21 well she should
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
50:29
have already read it if she's here opposing
Speaker 187
50:31
the mill right to the neighboring yeah I can I can ask questions I have the floor Tom's is the major yes ma'am
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
50:42
okay it's we're looking at page 10 on line four okay and senator Irvin I would absolutely love to have you know being someone who grew up on a rice farm we still have our rice farm in East Arkansas I've seen you know renewable
projects be an opportunity for some families to keep their farms in the family and gives them an additional revenue source and I know that's not what this bill is about today but I would absolutely love more than anything
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
51:20
to have that conversation with you at another time. And what page again
we're back to the bill? Ten. And what page what line?
Four. And okay and exactly why
Speaker 180
51:35
does this language ban projects? That is just an excessive number that exceeds
the what is kind of a reason what what
Speaker 159
51:46
I would say based off what my folks have told me would be a reasonable amount the three
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
51:52
and five tenths times the total height of the wind turbine as measured from the ground at its base to its maximum height of the blade
tip yes ma'am that's going to ban projects in
the state of arkansas it will make it a lot more difficult for them to do business here yes ma'am okay last question you just testified that new technology
is why that they were coming to the state of Arkansas because they can build these wind turbines higher. So when you say that the new technology is what's bringing them to the state of Arkansas because they can be built higher to capture the wind, then that seems to be actually supporting your answer to Senator Boyd. Well, the turbines are
Speaker 180
52:42
taller, But if the setback is larger, that means it's three and a half times more.
Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
52:49
Does that make sense? Because it's a taller turbine. So it's actually increasing their setback limits because the turbine's taller. And the setback is thin more. Yes, ma'am. Okay.
Speaker 3
53:16
Any other questions? Seeing none, you're dismissed. Thank you.
Next is Richard Williams. He is four. And just as a reminder, Mr. Williams, there's three minutes and any questions? Thank you very much. I'm Richard Williams. I
Speaker 201
53:43
am a former Carroll County judge. I also am one of the people that Dr. Kerr was speaking of. For a matter of fact, I've probably been the most involved with it because I started back with it in February of 2023.
I'm also, this project adjoins my property on three sides. I'm very familiar with the karst terrains of my 150-something acres of property there adjoining it with all those issues. I'm against this project. Since I'm limited, I'm going to shut down to some of the things here. First thing is, on the regulations, this is a $400 million project. It occupies, and I have documentation here from the Arkansas Economic Development Commission, from Scout, 15,000 acres of property on that mountain ridge.
How many projects in the state of Arkansas ever, $400 million, 15,000 acres or more, with no regulations? Period. If they don't want any, that's even more so. So, no oversight by the state, no oversight by the county. The closest oversight we've come to is that with the Arkansas Game and Fish and with the Arkansas Department of Environmental Quality Stormwater Division, ADEQ has already cited
this project many times for numerous violations of stormwater permits. There's no oversight by Carroll County, no oversight by the Public Service Commission because this is not a public utility. It's a private investment industry. There's no oversight, no art enforcement of the Arkansas Fire and Building Code at county or state level currently. I appreciate voting for Bill 437. You brought up the tax credits and about how they affect this job
in a lease that I have a copy of. I don't have it with me. I've got a hotel. I can get it for you. If the tax credits go away, This wind company can exit the property with a few days' notice, period. But however, the property owner cannot. Only the wind company can do it. I'm very familiar with the terrain there. It's very karst on my property. I've got places I've driven before over the many years I've been there. I'll drive on a road. Here a few years ago, I was driving on the road.
I had to stop. Where is my road? I got out on the side, because I own the entire, both sides of the valley. It had shifted trees that are 50 to 80 foot tall. They had shifted all the way to the next bench, totally erect, like they had just grown there. 50 to 80 foot trees. And that's happened at three different spots that I know of. Since then also, they've started construction. We've asked them, what's going to happen with this massive building for our well? We have no public water where these projects are at.
It's wells or springs. i've been there for 25 plus years i've got a spring thank you sir okay time's up uh any questions from the committee senator
Speaker 205
56:56
boyd and then senator key or senator ervin i'm sorry i understood
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
57:02
county judge sorry here yes sir i understood you be county judge in carroll county years ago yes sir
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
57:12
county also all right so so this is substantial investment in your county that you're talking about. Yes, sir. What is in here that keeps these projects from
going forward in Carroll County? Come back again, Mr. Boyd. What is in here that would keep these projects from going forward
Speaker 210
57:34
in Carroll County? Is there anything that's inhibiting property owners' rights? No, sir. Biggest thing is, what's inhibiting it? Regulations. They do not want any regulations. I do have November of 2023 quorum court meeting. When asked for a moratorium, our county attorney got up there, spoke, he and his assistant had told the quorum court that if
Speaker 201
57:56
they pass this moratorium, you will be sued. You will be going to Little Rock for depositions. You will have to hire a bigger law firm at the expense of the county because I cannot defend you as county attorney because it's too big of a job. They will sue us. However, the county attorney did not mention to them that we have court amenity in the state of Arkansas. We have risk management in the state of Arkansas. If I had not been county judge previously and knew of these issues, when the county attorney got through speaking, I would have voted against the moratorium.
It was threat, and it was not the first one.
Speaker 210
58:33
And this is recorded, by the way, on foreign court records and the news media and some private citizens record
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
58:41
these meetings also okay so but again is there anything in here that's really limiting property owners
rights or you just think that by having regulation you're going to keep
Speaker 210
58:51
wind out of carroll county no sir it has nothing to do with limiting property owners rights what it does it gives the adjoining property owner their property rights okay
Speaker 201
59:00
that's where the big thing comes in at it's a setback you're talking
out this three and a half times the height. Why does that affect these taller winds? Because guess what? Instead of a two to four hundred foot wind turbine 600 feet from my property, now I've got a 700 foot wind turbine 600 feet from my property. It's going to fall on my property. They also did not bring up in this lease that I've got where the about the lease payments, the tax credits, also their health waivers, all these people had to sign. Health issues to their families forever, waivered. They cannot sue or anybody else can sue the wind company associated with that property
forever. Even five owners from now, if they're still there. Senator
Speaker 15
59:48
Irvin and then Senator Flamm. Just a really quick question.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
59:52
No problem. I'm here. Short answer. Short answer because I know we're here a long time. Did the company do any type of runoff study?
Not that I'm aware of. Are they clear-cutting all of the entire area? Yes, ma'am. They
Speaker 201
1:00:07
have clear-cut over hundreds of acres. I mean, stripped to the ground.
My well has went dry adjoining it. This well has never been dry. The
Speaker 210
1:00:17
severe drought of 2012, I have neighbors' wells and springs went dry around me.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:00:23
I was giving them water. Okay. Well, I mean, the runoff is another big issue because of the topography there. Correct. Which would create incredible flooding. All you have to do is look what happened in North Carolina, in western North Carolina when the storms came through and the tremendous amount of runoff that occurred
because of clear cutting and drainage issues.
Because you have no zoning in these rural counties. I mean, there is no zoning. And so there has to be a state regulatory presence,
Speaker 200
1:00:55
I would think. Now, may I also add something here about the question right there about
Speaker 201
1:01:00
the runoffs and all? Where they are building this at is on the very tip of the ridge of the mountain that runs for miles. And they are stripped it completely bare. On that point, they're about runoffs. As county
Speaker 203
1:01:13
judge, I was educated. I'm far from an expert. I've gotten very informed.
Speaker 210
1:01:18
My road farman told me they were clearing some land. He says, Judge, we're fixing to have flooding next
Speaker 201
1:01:24
year on this creek down here because the trees are no longer sucking up the water that's coming. it's going to be next year guess what we had roads and bridges washed out in that area where they just stripped that land up there and they did it for pasture these people are doing it for money our tax
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:01:41
credit dollars okay and and those are primarily gravel roads around this area ma'am are they gravel roads yes ma'am absolutely uh it runs
Speaker 210
1:01:47
for from state highway 103 south of green
Speaker 201
1:01:51
forest on that ridge for some it's four miles from there to my house three miles to that
Speaker 200
1:01:57
so seven miles of dirt road there and then it continues on if you want to go to highway 412 for another four miles.
Speaker 216
1:02:03
Thank you. Senator Flowers. I just want to
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:09
know a couple of things. Do you have a copy of this lease that you're referring to? I
Speaker 201
1:02:15
don't have it with me here but I do I can
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:18
get it to you. Yes ma'am. Yeah well and would you agree that the property owner has a right to contract for
whatever purpose if they aren't violating the law? Yes ma'am they
Speaker 210
1:02:29
do but however they don't think they have the right to violate my property rights. Well maybe that's an issue between you and your neighbors
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:39
but I want to know you're talking about a ridge I think I've only been up there one time
to Carroll County is that where that hotel is a famous hotel or something?
Speaker 220
1:02:50
Yeah it's Eureka Springs Crescent. Yes ma'am. Is that Carroll County? Yes that's the far western end what we're talking
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:02:56
is back the east. Okay okay well I'm
just saying that's the only time I've been up there. Okay. Great but so this ridge you're talking
about is that private property? Yes ma'am. Okay and so and
Speaker 223
1:03:17
you're talking about your whale ran dry?
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:03:20
Yes ma'am. Because of this? I can't prove it is. Well Yeah, well it seems to me you could call environmental protection or the ADEQ to
figure that out. And then if you own your your what's under the ground as well as above the ground I mean you might have a an action legal action but the other thing is you you were the county judge and you said your county attorney got up there and gave you all advice that they would be sued. Sounds like you all have some serious local issues that your county government doesn't want to deal with. Would
you agree with that? Absolutely, Senator. Okay. Well, maybe you should be at that quorum
court meeting tonight. No, ma'am. When you
Speaker 210
1:04:12
get there, our county judge limits how many people can speak and we've had meetings where he actually against state law has not allowed public comment at forum court meetings. You can sue him
Speaker 92
1:04:25
for that now. Thank you. Thank you Senator Flowers. Is there any other questions? Senator Johnson. Thank you
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:04:34
and judge I'm very sensitive to that and you know there is that
First Amendment thing about the right to petition your government for redress of grievance and it sounds to me like maybe they might look at another county attorney if you got one that says if you do this you'll get sued because, Lord, governments get sued all the time. State governments get sued. So, I mean, to me, you can't operate in an environment like that, but I won't tell people in Carroll County how to do it. If they're risk averse, that's on them. The question I had was that you and Senator Boyd were kind of,
I think you weren't getting his point. He maybe wasn't getting your point. I want to come back to. No problem. Yes, sir, please. I'm sorry? I said, yes, sir, please. People, there's no regulation at this moment, and you're concerned that there maybe should be, but I used the example of something falling, one of these things falling across on your property. I mean, I have a neighbor that had a tree fall across my driveway.
Now, fortunately, he's my friend, and we got our chainsaws out, and we worked it out. But the point is that it was his tree on his side, and then it fell. Now, theoretically, of course, this gigantic wind tower could fall on your property, but then again, it might not. And I remember seeing like that big, and it fell. Remember, there was a great big Channel 7 tower halfway between here and Pine Bluff that fell one time,
but it didn't have to be, you know, I mean, until it fell, it was just fine sticking up in the air. Yes, sir. So I'm just, are you saying you want guarantee regulation or do you want minimal regulation or some, I guess it's a matter of degree, is it not about how much protection you have about kind of a what if situation? The what
Speaker 210
1:06:42
ifs are getting more so because what ifs, if you look, and I've been very much online watching along with other
Speaker 200
1:06:51
citizens, we're getting more collapsing wind turbine
towers all over the all over the country it's a numbers game it's
Speaker 201
1:06:57
just like if you have two cars out of the road what are the odds you're going to get in a wreck
Speaker 210
1:07:02
but if you got 2,000 cars out in that same mile see what i'm
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:07:07
saying but this judge you know the first two cars in the united states ran into each other most
Speaker 197
1:07:11
probably this really really did happen but go ahead i
Speaker 201
1:07:14
get your point but it's the setback from the adjoining property owner's property line about the tree yes the same property crossroad i've had trees come across i've got my chainsaw my tractor out there, my front end loader, picked them up and cleared them off. But how do you, and the worst
thing also about these wind turbines, does that just say collapse? Union City, New York, Rexfield, New York, Richard and Linda Mullen Farm last year, a neighbor's farm had a lease on it for a wind turbine. It caught on fire for whatever reason. They're over a mile away. The fire from that wind turbine blew over a mile to their family farm, commercial hay, dairy, and beef operation. This past winter we just get through, I talked to Linda and Richard. They had to spend, instead of selling hay, they had to purchase over $150,000 of hay to feed their cattle
because where these fiberglass shards were at contaminated their pastures and they're contaminated forever because they cannot get them picked up. Also, when one of these towers collapsed, it's not like a cell phone tower up there or some kind of terminal tower. Up on the top of those is a turbine engine that is larger than the size of a full-size school bus, the big ones. And up there, there are hundreds of gallons of lubricating oil. And this is when they catch on fire, there's where your real fire danger starts.
Speaker 92
1:08:37
It's not just the fact that it's up there. Okay. All right. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Seeing no other questions, you're
Speaker 29
1:08:48
dismissed. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much and appreciate
Speaker 233
1:09:00
your time. Next is Josh Curtis. This is against. Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee. Josh Curtis, Association of Arkansas Counties. I will not need three minutes. I'm just here to say counties are not normally don't like telling people what to do with their properties,
as Senator Johnson knows when it comes to extraterritorial jurisdiction. But we we don't do a whole lot of permitting. There's some permissive language in here that states that we do some permitting or we can do that. So we would we'd be opposed to it like that. It also goes down a slippery slope of zoning and counties aren't staffed to do permits to draft permitting things. There's only a couple counties in the state that does zoning. So for that reason, I'm speaking against.
Speaker 3
1:09:46
the city is one mile. So, they're wanting to put this in the county. Am I
Speaker 233
1:09:55
correct? Well, actually, Senator Johnson, or you, or Mr. Chair, y'all just recently passed a bill that does away with extraterritorial jurisdiction. So, there's not any setbacks at all anymore. this bill
Speaker 236
1:10:08
has a minimum setback from you might
Speaker 3
1:10:11
as well say a city for one mile so you can't put
one of these in a city right I'm not speaking on behalf of the cities yeah so this is this is putting them in my back
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:10:27
door right so go ahead Senator Johnson thank you Mr. Chairman Mr. Curtis if If I'm hearing
you correctly, counties are not, shall we say, geared up to take on the regulatory responsibility that this bill would place upon them. Am I hearing that? It would allow us to do that.
Well, it would allow is one thing, but there's not to be having the ability. I mean, you know, poor Carroll County, they don't even have an attorney that would defend them if they got sued. That would worry me a lot. But the point is that, and again, I'm not advocating for or against regulation of this industry. I'm simply talking about realities here. Counties aren't in a position to do it, sounds like what you're saying. Yes, sir.
And other entities may or may not be either. So that's why I'm just, and I'm not picking on Senator Hester either, but I'm just saying that there are things in here that I'm thinking, Is this practical? I mean, yes, maybe we can agree that there should be some kind of regulation, but, you know, it's another one of those bills that, you know, it's kind of long and it says some things that are permissive, but everything comes down to practicalities, you know. Politics is the art of the possible,
and counties have limited budgets to do the things that they're constitutionally and their own policy want to do. So I guess
you, would you agree? Yes, sir. okay thank you sir
Speaker 3
1:12:02
thank you mr chairman so josh if the counties really don't want don't want and can't regulate and they don't want in this bill to help regulate
Speaker 235
1:12:13
is that correct oh we're not we're not advocating for against state regulations
Speaker 233
1:12:19
we just we don't we don't like putting regulations
on our landowners, generally speaking, in counties.
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:12:26
But do you agree that counties can't regulate this
Speaker 14
1:12:34
effectively because of the cost of possible litigation? I don't
Speaker 22
1:12:43
You think counties can afford litigation?
Speaker 232
1:12:49
Some counties can, some counties can, but some counties are losing population and
Speaker 233
1:12:56
their revenue, tax revenues is decreasing.
Speaker 3
1:13:00
I mean, you're speaking against a regulatory bill, a statewide regulatory bill.
Speaker 233
1:13:05
I'm speaking specifically on the parts that addresses the counties, not the state regulations that may or may, the PSE may or may not impose. All right. Thank you. Senator Flowers. I'd
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:13:19
like to know what bill it is you referred to that we strip. HB
1510. HB 1510. I just want to check and make sure how I voted on it.
Brazil bill? Senator Hester? No.
Speaker 87
1:13:41
Stubble fields. That's where cities can't have that mile buffer zone that they can zone and regulate three miles I'm sorry okay all right thank you sir next we have I'm not even gonna try this last name mark I don't know okay come and help us with
Speaker 244
1:14:08
your last name just introduce yourself and who you're with yes sir my name is
Speaker 245
1:14:30
mark wingerski and i'm a scout clean energy and i'm here to testify against the proposed legislation i'm vice president of scout clean energy and we're a colorado based company scout is a renewable
energy developer owner and operator and we currently have the nimbus wind farm in construction in carroll county as to date we've already invested 200 million dollars in the project the nimbus wind farm started over nine years ago to construct a wind farm you need land there's an old saying in the oil and gas business no lease no grease and the same holds true for the wind projects we started by visiting with landowners sitting at their kitchen tables and answering the hard questions. The landowners consult attorneys, family members, and other decision makers to make
an informed decision on what is best for the farm, what is best for the ranch, what is best for their property. Why do landowners participate in these projects? Some do it to increase revenue per acre. Some do it for the added security of guaranteed income stream. Others do it to ensure passive income to keep that sentry farm, that generational ranch, in the family. We see it all over the country, the next generation moving to the city, to the suburbs, and not returning to the family farm or to the ranch. These renewable energy projects
provide the revenue to help keep property in the family for generations to come. These wind turbines take up less than an acre, including the access road, so the farmers can continue to farm, the ranchers can continue to grave livestock. This is truly a compatible land use. Now specific to our project in Carroll County, The Nimbus wind farm is sited on a little over 9,000 acres with 30 windmills. We have over 50 landowners that have signed voluntary wind leases and transmission easements.
There's a lot of misinformation out there. The Nimbus wind project does not have the right of eminent domain. The project is highly regulated through permitting processes here in the state of Arkansas with the FAA as well as with FERC. We will generate over $46 million in economic impact over the life of the project. $15 million is going to those landowners, and $30 million is going to increase the tax base through new tax payments.
We currently, as of today, have over 60 folks working to build this project in Carroll County. At the peak of construction, we'll have over 200 people working on these projects. They're eating, staying, and shopping local, and that economic impact is not included in the $46 million. As drafted this bill will strip landowners of their ability to use their land and their property as
Speaker 249
1:17:23
they see fit. Imposing a four-mile setback. Thank you
Speaker 92
1:17:30
sir. Is there any questions Senator Flowers? Yes can you
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:17:35
describe we heard from this professional engineer earlier and
he spoke about the topography and how deep the footing and all that is can
you talk about what steps scalp took to make sure it would be no
collapse or other things that would be detrimental
and affect the safety public safety yes senator senator let
Speaker 245
1:18:11
me address that question for you so at each one of the turbine locations we 30 wind turbines on the project we take geotech samples so the geotech is a core boring that goes into the earth roughly 80 feet so we drill 80 feet into the earth each one of these turbine locations we took roughly six to eight samples so we look for voids, we look for abnormalities in the subsurface that would ultimately prevent us from installing
a wind turbine. So we take geotech at each one of these turbine foundation locations. We take multiple samples at each one of these turbine foundation locations. These samples are ultimately taken by professional engineers that ultimately have to stamp and approve the foundation design for the project. So these turbine foundations, we drill a hole 80 feet deep, the turbine foundation itself is only going to be roughly 16 feet deep by 65 foot wide. So we do our due diligence, we do our research, we do it with professional engineers to ensure we're designing the project
Speaker 254
1:19:12
correctly. And that's in accordance with industry standards? Yes ma'am, that's in accordance
Speaker 245
1:19:19
with industry standards. I also want to clarify, we provided the full geotech report and the foundation design which is almost 200 pages long to the fire marshal here in the state of Arkansas last week so that week last week yes ma'am so that information is
Speaker 254
1:19:35
open and available to the public what
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:19:38
what do you expect the fire marshal to do with that will he just review it and say okay
what does he do with it beyond
Speaker 245
1:19:48
that so it was his request to have it provided now to whom he disseminates and who reviews it to provide comments. I
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:19:57
cannot answer that question. Okay. And about the subsidies, does your company make investments? Yes, ma'am. So tell
me how do you get these subsidies? Is the project subsidized from the beginning or what? Yeah. So let me talk
Speaker 245
1:20:17
to the subsidies. So we, the company, take all the risk to receive a subsidy. We, the company, have to spend $400 million. We have to have $400 million in the ground before we can even make the application to receive a single dollar back. When we make that application, we have to demonstrate that we've used American-made products, we've used American labor, and we've adhered to a lot of other conditions in order to receive any of that money back. But we, the company, take on that burden of that $400 million risk in order to apply for the subsidy that we hope we receive.
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:20:52
Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, before the nasty beeper
went off, you were commenting on how the legislation would impose a four-mile setback. I wanted to hear the rest of your sentence, if you could kind of complete that so I could understand what the effect would be of the
Speaker 253
1:21:19
four-mile setback. Correct. So, within all the folders, we've provided to the
Speaker 245
1:21:23
senators a map. And on the map, you will see the turbines. And around the turbines,
that's a half-mile area. Yeah, that's a half-mile area. And if you take
Speaker 248
1:21:36
that area and you bring it out even further, that is your entire notice area for the project. So
Speaker 245
1:21:43
I was not saying setback. The four miles is your notice area. So the way that the bill is structured is you're going to hold a public hearing you have to invite everyone within four miles of those turbines and those individuals that could
Speaker 248
1:21:57
be three three and a half miles away get to show up and tell the signed landowners
whether they agree or not with the use of their property whether they agree or not with signing a voluntary
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
1:22:11
lease okay and and these people are a long way from the actual yes sir
construction yes sir okay all right it's sounds sounds like quite a distance would you agree yes sir I
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:22:29
agree thank you senator flowers so hold that map up again I don't know if
it's in your so so the pink are your leases no ma'am what does a pink
Speaker 245
1:22:40
represent? The pink represents the 3.5 times tip height that is in the bill. Okay. So what are you
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:22:49
saying about the area four miles out? Yeah, so within the pink,
Speaker 264
1:22:54
if one of those landowners say no to the landowner who signed a
Speaker 245
1:23:00
lease, they can stop the project. They can stop that turbine being installed. That's
Speaker 254
1:23:06
the way that the bill is drafted. So
Speaker 247
1:23:12
the pink is where the windmills will go?
Where the windmills are the black dots. I can't
Speaker 245
1:23:26
see the black dots. Okay. So where the windmills go are the black dots and then under the structure of the bill you have a 3.5 mile setback from non-participating landowners. That's roughly half a mile. So that means any any landowner there under the pink that says no can stop that landowner from receiving a
Speaker 28
1:23:42
wind turbine. Where is this three and a half miles? I see 3.5 times the total height.
Speaker 254
1:23:50
So the 3.5 that is page 10 1A is an alpha.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:23:55
Page line four on page 10. That's what 3.5 times the
Speaker 3
1:23:58
total height if you've got a 700 foot you're talking about about a half mile. Yes, sir. That's
Speaker 151
1:24:05
not three and a half miles. No, sir. 3.5 times the tip
Speaker 253
1:24:11
height, not miles. Which amounts about a half mile. 3.5 times, not three miles. No, sir, but the notice is four miles. He's talking about
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:24:21
all these people that have not given a lease that are within the proximity of these. Within four miles, then those people can
Speaker 245
1:24:29
show up to the hearing and tell you what you can and cannot do with your property as well. Is that before your lease? That would be after the lease. So you have your leases executed, then those folks can show up and tell you what you can and cannot do with your property. Because the bill requires you to have public hearing and notice folks within four miles.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:24:51
But in the course of you obtaining leases, what was that process like? Did you have, I mean, was there any participation or interaction with neighboring landowners? Yes, ma'am. So, as another individual stated, we started with
Speaker 264
1:25:08
about 15,000 acres. The project, as it stands today, is a little over
Speaker 245
1:25:14
9,000 acres. So, we did speak with more folks. We do have more acreage under lease. But what we've done is we've condensed the project boundary, and we've done that through responsible work with the FAA.
So through the process with the FAA, there's concern about a C-130 training route coming out of Little Rock Air Force Base. And because of that military training route, we ultimately adjusted the project boundary and we dropped some of that acreage off. So that's how we got from 15,000 acres down to 9,000 acres. We're also trying to have a contiguous site. We're trying to minimize how many feet of road we're building, how many underground feet of collection we're trenching in. So that is why the project was reduced. But yes, ma'am, we spoke and we have more folks leased than the 9,000 we'll be building on.
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:25:58
And you actually have wind turbines built up there in Carroll County now? They're
Speaker 245
1:26:07
being built as we speak. So foundations are being poured, roads are being built, underground collection is being trenched in, and to date we've spent $200 million on our project. We object to this bill because it is retroactive and we've made this
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:26:25
large capital investment. Plus, you would be disappointing a lot of these landowners that have lease agreements.
Speaker 245
1:26:32
Yes, ma'am. We signed these leases nine years ago, and these leases we've had to extend two, three times. And we keep going back to our landowners, asking for extensions, and they just want to see this project get built. Mr. Chair. Senator McKee. I
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
1:26:49
think the committee's heard everything we need to hear. I'd like to move for immediate consideration. Motion for immediate consideration.
Speaker 3
1:27:03
Second by Senator Irvin. All in favor of the discussion, go ahead. It's not debatable. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed, like sign. All right, thank you, immediate consideration. So what's the will of the committee? Motion for adoption as amended. Second by Senator Irvin. All in favor say aye.
Speaker 22
1:27:35
Aye. All opposed? No. All right. Sorry, Senator,
Senator Stephanie Flowers
Unverified
1:27:45
your bill's failed. Mr. Chair, just for the record, I'd like to note that this bill that did away with the County government right to exercise our municipality to exercise territorial jurisdiction over an unincorporated area of a county. I voted no. Thank you ma'am.
Speaker 280
1:28:08
We're adjourned. Senator Irvin. Yeah.
Agenda
REGULAR AGENDA
CALLL TO ORDER
SB437 Hester TO CREATE THE ARKANSAS WIND ENERGY DEVELOPMENT ACT.
ADJOURN
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — INSURANCE & COMMERCE - SENATE, Mar 18, 2025 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Speaker 3
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Senator Bart Hester
Unverified
Senator Matt McKee
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Senator Justin Boyd
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Senator Stephanie Flowers
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Nick Sparks
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Senator Missy Irvin
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Bradley Kerr
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Lauren Waldrop
Unverified
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Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
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