ALC-Higher Education Subcommittee
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0:00
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Members if you would have a seat we'll start in a minute or so here.
Members are going to call the Education Committee to
order. there's a sign-up sheet out here if we have people that like to make public comment you're
welcome let me just comment about that you know today's meeting is mostly about return on investment and the appropriateness for online education across the board we hope to avoid getting involved in any specific instances where an online education program is appropriate or inappropriate at a certain school. Those boards and those universities will make those decisions appropriate for them. What we're talking about today is whether our return on investment for
online programs benefits the state and Arkansans. So if you kind of get off specific to a certain school, then don't be surprised if I or someone says we're off topic. But again, this is a public meeting the public is welcome to speak you're welcome to give your comments again the topic is whether it's appropriate and for our online education so moving on members anybody have any questions on that I'm sure you'll give
me a hand keeping everybody on our topic item B there is no action to be taken by the subcommittee. The report has been received. It requires institutions of higher ed to report to ALC annually upon the release of the previous year's audit by legislative audit to the chief fiscal officer of the state of the legislative council, the certification of the solvency of sufficient funds, and a calculation of the number of days of cash on hand prepared by each
institutions chief financial officer that report will be read on Friday and we'll have an opportunity to adopt or have questions at that point anybody have any questions on B if not we'll move to see the
presentation Oh Representative Lundstrom you
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
5:42
have a question yes sir Arkansas Tech it just
has an X what what does that mean does anybody know That X is on
is it no sir and and I just haven't reported it okay so we'll check on that and have an answer on Friday okay thank you sir
efficient thank you glad thank you other questions seeing none when we to item C
the presentation of higher education updates I think you have a sheet on that and we're going to have dr. Ken Warden come forward commissioner of Arkansas division of higher ed yes if you'll come to the table please
and again just to reinforce what we're talking about today number one is return on investment impacts on productivity formula and to the graduate outcome so can all of those together are they separate presentations yes sir it's one presentation I have
Speaker 26
7:07
a few slides on on each okay and if you'll introduce yourself and you'll be
recognized yes sir Ken Wharton commissioner of Arkansas division
Speaker 29
7:16
of higher education thank you for being here today and you may proceed yes sir i have a
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
7:23
few items uh that i was asked to address today one of which is our progress with uh where we are on embedding a return on investment metric into the higher education productivity funding formula uh the next would be we're going to discuss um success in courses uh general edge or excuse me Arkansas course transfer system eligible courses in by modality and by that I mean face-to-face versus online sections and then lastly we're going to talk a little bit about accreditation
higher education and kind of what that landscape is and where we're on that
Speaker 31
8:02
yes sir um so to begin miss Emily do I have control of the clicker on the slides yes
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
8:13
i do okay so as uh the last time i was here we went through a little more lengthy discussion on what return on investment meant and what that metric was and then how we might use that since i was here last we have met twice our first meeting was an introductory meeting on june 25th where we
described the metric and its intended use and we sent data to committee members for their consideration. The higher education productivity formula committee was really the same committee with a couple changes in members due to retirements and folks leaving and representation and we have we also have had members of administration intended and so we're happy to you know I'm here to update you all at one at one time but you know your participation that is also a certain welcome of course so we met again on July 23rd I'm going to go into that a little
more detail and then our next meeting is on August 27th so the end of this month just as a reminder the return on investment metric is us looking at Arkansas students who graduated from Arkansas public institutions and looking at the cost of their education so their tuition fees books we also added to that cost the amount of salary they that they gave up in order to participate in that academic program so how much money would they have made uh or the
high school graduate would have made during the time that they were participating in their educational program and then we look we took and matched the wages after they graduated year over year cumulatively to see how long it took them to repay that through increased wages of a high school graduate in years and then what they made beyond that and our data is really good from 2011 until now so we started with a 2011 year we clocked the 2015 graduation rate because that's 20
graduating class 2011 and 2015 is four years and then we measured from 2015 until 2023 to get those numbers and we did that by classification of instructional programs two-digit level so we didn't look at every unique engineering degree we looked at engineers we didn't look at every health care individual unique program we looked at health care programs and when you do that at that level there's about 35 classifications of degrees and then we so we're trying to figure out what is an acceptable number of years for the return to break even or
and start gaining and then how does that fit into the metric so in our last meeting in july the first meeting in june was kind of an introductory setting the stage in our meeting in july what we did was look at the existing formula so we revisited the existing formula and we're trying to find ways to identify to simplify the existing formula our formula does exactly what it was designed to do but it has a lot of pieces to it so the slide that you see before you has the formula and how it's created and how the how it's weighted so on the four-year university side
you say there's 80 of the formulas based on effectiveness and effectiveness drills down to credentials which are certificates and degrees progression transfer success and then gateway course success gateway courses are courses that students take that really are a good predictor of whether or not they're going to complete their degree and then time to degree an adjustment for research on the four-year side and adjustment for diseconomies of scale to your side and then efficiencies which are core expense ratio and faculty admin or faculty to admin salary ratio
there are some things in this formula that don't change the bottom line so in order to simplify the formula we are looking at what can we remove from this formula and still you know have the same index so each institution creates an index based on the certificates they degrees and degrees they produce it goes through this formula and then the institutions have a three-year rolling average the three-year rolling average mitigates volatility and then so after each year the current past three years are compared to the previous past
three years and then they are funded based on how much they go up or down with a two percent up or down limit so if we took an ROI metric and there are statutory requirements that require us to consider these things not exactly as they're described but things like affordability and effectiveness and efficiencies and so these metrics are preliminary by that but if you look at what we're doing with ROI I think that the premise of return on investment really replaces
some of these things so a core expense ratio on an efficiency we know that that category at the end of the day if we removed it completely and re-ran the numbers of the index it doesn't change much but the affordability metric specifically time to degree credits at completion so time to degree is did you finish a four-year degree in four years did you how many credits did you have an 120-hour degree. Did you have 130 credits or 120 credits and going over that? So really one of
the things that we could do is just take the ROI piece and embed it right into the affordability piece or remove the affordability piece and add ROI to an effectiveness piece. Now this is a lot of detail but let me get to the crux of it. The perception of higher ed is that we cost too much, we don't give relative degrees and then we're indoctrinating students so if we cut to the chase on ensuring a degree has relevance and value on a financial basis we're making a promise to these
students and to the state taxpayers that their monies are going to be used in the right ways on degrees that have value and return so I think our institutions are ready to accept that and be accountable to that and through this this is what we're going to do so if a degree in the zip code does not show a return and we put a multiplier where the affordability metric is and let's say that that that multiplier is one if then and it gets multiplied by one if that degree pays for itself in eight years or less and a zero if it doesn't pay for itself in eight years or less
then we're not going to pay them to do anything that doesn't pay return in ROI because we're going to multiply it by zero. Another premise is that we have degrees that have a return on investment very, very quickly, two years, four years. Do we, rather than multiplying that degree value by one, do we multiply it by something above one? So we reward our institutions at a premium for giving degrees that return on investment faster. Health care degrees return investment faster.
Engineering degrees return on investment faster. We have in this, you see, one of the metrics is on the credential side, there are some bonus points for awarding STEM degrees. Will STEM degrees have a high return on investment? STEM degrees and high demand degrees? Well, it's arguably STEM degrees and high-demand degrees pay more, and so they're inherently going to be part of return on investment. So what we're doing now is we looked at the existing formula in July.
We're going to come back in August and try to set some thresholds on what is an acceptable demarcation of an acceptable return, and should we just have it a go-no-go multiplier of one or zero on whether we're going to fund this degree, or should we stratify that and pay more for degrees that show a quicker return and remember this formula produces an index the index is a number that's attached to each
institution using the same methodology the institution is compared to itself with a new index as we whatever we decide to do we hope to have this wrapped up by the end of the calendar year and to come back to you all in the spring so that we can get your approval on that so that the institutions can start making decisions in the fall on what they're going to offer what they're going to change I expect that the changes are going to happen quickly but in order to be
I think fair we probably need to walk off of this formula onto the new formula so we have comparator years that are equivalent. So it may be that we continue on this formula for three years collecting new data for three years under the new metric and in that third or fourth year we measure to the new metric because there would be no way to compare effectively because it's a completely new index number that's going to be created. I'll stop
Speaker 31
17:26
there and be happy to address any
questions i hope that makes sense it's kind of complicated
hard to hard to simplify we can
appreciate complicated so when you say that there you're you're going to present you should have the research done by in the calendar year in order to present to the legislature what that new formulary looks like and then how does that directly affect what we will do as legislators appropriating funds for universities is that out well that you anticipate that will
happen uh in the next legislative session so if we
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
18:07
embed this metric we're going to come back to you and say here's what this looks like here's what we decided on hopefully it's a lot less messy or simple that it's a little more simple it's simpler than it is now i think that's big a big move for us, a strategic move, because when you look at all of this, no offense to my colleagues who helped create it. I've been in higher ed since this was created and was a small part of the process.
It doesn't need to be this complicated, and people lose trust when we make these things this complicated. We can simplify this and get to the same ends with a more simple process, and I think that will
help regain trust within the General Assembly and within the general public. so we you do
you anticipate that uh someone in a degree field some of our universities will be dropping some of those degree programs i do and what we're saying is that they
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
19:04
don't have to drop the program if it's so core to their mission that they need to keep doing a program that doesn't
Speaker 26
19:11
show return on investment that's fine we're just not paying for it we being the legislature right The taxpayers
Speaker 41
19:20
of Arkansas and the legislature, yes, sir.
Taxpayers of Arkansas. So we're going to go to the list here. Representative Richardson, you're
Scott Richardson
Unverified
19:29
recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Appreciate you being here and bringing this. It's kind of an interesting idea and concept, and I was just curious, where did the inspiration come from to change the model and to approach it from a return on investment to the taxpayers
as opposed to generally funding pretty much any degree path that's out there well
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
19:50
thank first thank you for the question and it boils down to arkansans are not participating in higher education at rates consistent with other states other states around the nation participate at a rate of about 62 percent arkansas participate at a rate of about 42 percent give or take so we can increase our our participation by half and still be on par with the rest of the nation now whether I believe
it's true or not the perception is that we cost too much we're not giving relevant skills and that we're indoctrinating students I have got to do something to help Arkansans understand that by and large there is a return on investment and even people who aren't highly educated and who and I haven't been participating in a higher education, understand a dollar bill. So I've got to show them, and this is a way that we not only hold our institutions accountable to producing degrees,
but we also hold ourselves accountable to Arkansas and say that, without a doubt, if you come participate in one of our institutions, that you're going to have a better chance of earning a higher wage. not on some national level of data that we don't we can't go pin down these are arkansas graduates arkansas social security numbers match the arkansas wages these are arkansans and the money and wages they earned after they graduated and so really it's about entering into this process
to regain the confidence of the general assembly and the general public i hope that makes sense that
Scott Richardson
Unverified
21:28
makes perfect sense and seems like a good use of our of our institution so I appreciate that thank you thank you mr. representative Garner
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
21:41
you're recognized thank you mr. chair I can tell you that other states are looking at the same
thing and so far at any of my national meetings I have not had anybody
say what we're gonna do about teachers and law enforcement and some of those professions that we absolutely need folks educated for but are not going to make their return on investment in eight years are we going to lower the cost of that education are we going to cut it out are we going to how are we going to how are we going to make sure that we're still educating our teachers and our law enforcement and our early childhood educators and those folks that truly need to be educated how are we going to look at that for a return on investment so
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
22:24
there's a couple ways to consider that and what you're speaking to is programs and and professions that have high social value but that don't earn good wages we need we need people watching our children that are competent and capable we need early child care workers we need good pair of pros uh we just don't pay them well and it's a very sticky situation because as their wages go up having two grandchildren in in daycare you know my kids and they're you know with two working parents it's all they can do to pay for child care for two and and both of them work so you know how
do we we fix that so there's a couple different ways we could create a an exception list for certain high social value programs that we feel are important to us but what I will tell you is that when we look at most of those programs and I'm going to use the two-year education degree as an example the two-year education degree does not have an eight-year return on investment Those folks do not make more than a high school graduate with the data we collected. But if you take that same SIP code category, there's an associate degree in that category
and there's a bachelor's degree in that category. And the bachelor's degree in that category, as it does with most of these cases, shows an ROI. So if we make our judgment based on the four-year degree return, assuming that the individuals who earn the two-year degree have a pathway to the four-year degree. So we hold them harmless if the two-year degree doesn't ROI so long as the bachelor degree does under the premise that if they go on they're going to have the opportunity to earn more than
a college graduate. Does that make sense? So we have a couple options there. We could look at exceptions list or we could base our make our judgments on the program at the bachelor degree level and it mitigates most of the situations you're talking
about thank you yes ma'am that's a key question and one that we'll want to keep a close eye on because we do need to compensate people in those fields and our number of those fields to keep the flow going and I think we're trying to move in that direction thank you for the question representative hawk you're recognized
Representative RJ Hawk
Unverified
24:41
I guess my question is concerning the two-year colleges and And yesterday you were on the tour of, like, the Saline County Career Technical Center, right? My question is, will the data for the secondary career centers, will that factor in if they've got credentials through, like, an ASU Three Rivers or something like that? How does that factor in to stuff like that? Because there are different career paths through that, and you can get degrees and credentials through that stuff.
So do they have to be through like an accredited college to be factored
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
25:20
for clarification, at Saline County is where we were yesterday. I'll use that for example. Those degrees are certificates and degrees that are awarded through ASU Three Rivers, particularly at that campus. So the short answer is absolutely yes. They don't get funding for those students, but if those students complete a degree, then that would roll into this productivity. We don't fund institutions for students.
We only fund institutions for producing certificates and degrees. Great. Thank you.
Yes, sir. Another very important question, Representative Falk. Thank you very much. Senator English, you're recognized.
Senator Jane English
Unverified
25:57
So along the same line, so if we have a two-year degree in industrial maintenance and you have an associate degree, so how do you hook that to a four-year college degree, or do you?
Speaker 61
26:12
Yes, ma'am. The devil's in the detail, and we have several institutions that
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
26:17
do this, so it really depends on what the two-year degree is, and for industrial maintenance, for instance, that will roll into, and many times, to a Bachelor of Applied Science degree, and what you do is you take that two-year technical degree.
So I'm an automotive technician by trade. There's only like one institution or two in the nation that have a four-year degree in automotive technology. But in Arkansas, we have several opportunities. I started with an associate's degree in automotive service from West Art Community College, and I had a different color of hair, of course, and that was in another century. But I finished a bachelor's degree in vocational education, and many of those hours counted toward that. Our degree that when I was working for UA Fort Smith prior to this appointment, if we had folks that finished an associate degree in automotive or welding those rolled into a
bachelor of applied science degree and the upper level courses were more aligned with management uh you know in different type of of leadership skills typically but there is a way to get from that to another degree so what if they didn't decide to go on
Senator Jane English
Unverified
27:19
further then and and maybe as a welder they're making a whole lot of money and they've got a two-year degree how does that show up on the return of an investment well we've got looking at the mostly
the four-year college return on investment no
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
27:37
what we did in in under the so right now we have 2015 graduates eight-year uh timeline on all associate degrees and all bachelor degrees so what we're as this matures that's really all we had time to do with the band news we have in the division we're doing that for this year's for the 2016 to 24 cohort going back for the 23 to 24, 15 to 24, and we're also adding in technical certificates and certificates of
proficiency. Our goal after that is to do return on investment for all of those we've already done and graduate degrees in the following year, and then in the third year of this maturation process, Senator and I think you're going to be eager to hear about this, we're going to have done associates and bachelors, certificates of proficiency, technical certificates, graduate degrees and then we'll look at non-credit opportunities because in me in my mind the least common denominator here is whether someone takes a short-term certificate non-degree diploma
whatever or a degree is how long did it take that degree to taper themselves and what was a long-term wage potential we do not have that data in non-credit offerings we started collecting it last year but as we increase our investment through workforce challenge to eight hundred dollars to three thousand dollars we really need something more than anecdotal data to say you finished this degree at this private institution it was short term if we find that everyone in the state can go get a six-week credential and get a three dollar an hour raise maybe we'll do more of those but i
do think apples to apples that this is the way we do that but it's going to take a few
Chair
Unverified
29:21
years to get to that point because it's all new data thank you Sam representative McGrew you're recognized thank you and you may have already answered this in just that but when we talk about the return on investment and when I was hearing is through associate's and bachelor's degrees but you just touched on certificates and all there's a huge demand for tradesmen and there's
definitely a huge return on investment for that if you go to that and the the smaller two-year college and technical colleges are you could say hurting for those funds so is this in the future and equate into changing that direction to also help fund
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
30:02
those situations so the short answer about the relevance
of technical training and short-term degrees is yes this will take into
consideration those as far as you know changing funding you have to recall that this is an this creates an index number for each unique campus and that you can that campus isn't measured against every other campus it's measured against itself and the production of degrees so them you know producing 20% more degrees won't be reflected in a funding situation but it will what it's going to mitigate is us
funding degrees that do not show a return i hope that
Speaker 53
30:55
makes sense sir senator caldwell you're recognized thank you mr chair ken
Senator Ronald Caldwell
Unverified
31:00
i want to follow up on senator english question and and your explanation on uh uh trade classes uh are you basically saying the first year or two that they would take trade classes instead of things like literature and
fine arts that that would still apply toward their degree if they take the advanced management accounting courses the last two years is that basically what you're saying
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
31:27
yeah so some of the things that we have going on right now is because the way this formula is shaped they only get credit in the formula producing academic certificates and degrees short-term training that doesn't produce those doesn't count in the existing metric it probably won't count
even after we had roi that's why during the last session we asked to have the authority and the ability to create a non-credit formula so that our community colleges but because it it's based on a certificate and degree we ask students to take general education classes to meet that threshold so that our institutions get funded they're doing exactly what we asked them to do and incentivize them to do in a formula so having a non-credit formula and what happens in many cases is we we have some enroll in a short-term training program let's say for a welding program and in order for them to get to associate degree they've got to take 15 hours of general
education credit so before they get there they get a job offer and they didn't want to maybe take comp one or comp two or college algebra but they've met their employment goals and they leave they go meet their employment goals but our institutions are harmed because they don't hit the degree level so with a non-credit formula we'll also hopefully help fix some of that this doesn't do that directly it just is about saying that we're not going to fund things
That we don't see a financial return for a participant very good good explanation. Thank you. Thank you,
mr. Chair. Thank you So do you anticipate that you know, maybe a degree now bachelor's degree is 120 hours By going to this formula. Do you anticipate that that number will? Get lower 190, but we're not going to require
Speaker 26
33:13
some of those to get a degree. I do not I don't think this will do
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
33:19
that uh now we have uh about a year and a half ago the higher learning commission
sent out a white paper that said that they would consider and accredit sub 120 bachelor degrees so we have met with a group of our schools and we are exploring the option of doing a bachelor degree or a sub one that's less than 120 hours that's kind of a different conversation but it's one of the things where i think really the proof is in the pudding what we haven't done yet is had a program brought forth to us we've got employers signed off that says if these folks if you grant them a bachelor degree at let's say the 90 hour level that that
we have a job for those folks and that there's a there's a place between a 60 hour degree and a 120 hour degree that's employable and that's what i'm looking for i'm looking for someone to raise their hand and say we have a job for this individual with a bachelor's degree that's a sub 120 and there's value in it and
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
34:24
we'll hire those folks thank you yes sir representative Springer you're recognized thank you mr. chair good afternoon so I'm just trying to take in what you've communicated today so
basically what you're saying is that there are going to be certain things that are not going to be funded however you do not have all the data in order to support what you're speaking here generally is that what I'm hearing you say okay well help me out then
Speaker 29
34:51
okay I'm sorry can you ask can you ask the
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
34:56
question again okay so basically you're saying that there are going to be some some school work where they go to two-year or four-year that are not going
to be funded by the state of arkansas and right now you're saying that if they don't if there's no return on investment they're not going to be funded are we together so far yeah so but but we do not have the data to show what those are so we at this particular time we don't know what all those are going to be is that what i'm hearing now well we know we know all
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
35:24
the by two years two digit zip code the 35 bachelor degrees and the 25 associate degrees we know which of those show return on investment and how long and which ones don't oh okay so where is that data would you
share that data with us we yeah i can i think i may emily i don't know if we did after the last send the handout for all the degrees but i think we did after the last
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
35:48
meeting we sent that out okay can we i would like to see that because i haven't seen that because that would that would help me understand it better because right now it sounds like we're just talking and no i've got we have we have the data okay all right i would like
to see that data thank you yeah can you get that back to
Speaker 50
36:04
us yes yes sir we'll resend that we can rebroadcast that maybe i misunderstood when if
we're talking about not funding we're not necessarily talking about not funding institutions we're talking about not funding programs yes okay because big difference okay we'll get
that information uh representative in it you're recognized thank you
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
36:28
mr chair hi commissioner warden um i have a question uh what protections are in place so that programs serving first generation low income rural or special needs students aren't penalized because the cost
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
36:42
is more and the completion rates are slower so
Speaker 50
36:47
in the formula right now under the um in the effectiveness metric there
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
36:54
are some points and that is addressed statutorily that we have to do that so in in that metric and if you do a drill down like if i opened up the full two-page explanation of and i don't have it in the slideshow of what was in the effectiveness piece there's multipliers for stem and underserved and i think that's where it's addressed
Speaker 88
37:14
so we'll have that information but yes ma'am that's
in the existing formula okay thank you and we will have more meetings to address issues like that that's an important information before for us to consider the funding formulas representative Beck you're recognized
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
37:35
thank you mr. chair and I'll apologize if you covered some of this and I went over
right I'm looking at this I like the concept I really do
but I look at it and try and maybe drill down to the core
you know the root of this thing it would appear to me that you know the with the previous formula one of the problems that the universities had was they were their students and some of their technical programs were being pulled out before they were completers of those courses and they were going to work in in the field, which to me is the ultimate what we want, right? I mean, we'd like to get that student educated and to a point where they are very employable
and to the point that they say, I'm not even going to finish this. I'm going to work. And to me, so in my opinion, that is where we want, that's a program we want to emulate, right exactly uh but so my question is is it the only concern i have is we're looking at this and we're saying okay this program is not productive so so so we're not going to fund it as well as we would sometimes whatever the index allows you to go but my question would wouldn't it be a better
way to look at it to say look at the programs that people are being hired out of before they complete and say we want more of that and whether it's reward that that those type of programs are as opposed to saying okay yeah you didn't get a degree so now what we're going to reward reward is these degrees the degrees that pay the money back great basic concept but the better
concept is saying okay I took and I'm just going to throw some numbers here I took half the time and I put a person out there in a very employable situation which I think is is is better serving the the general population or the the student body that would go to university so is there a way within this that we can do that that we can tweak and say okay these for because i i have had some of the two-year schools come to me and say you know our biggest problem with the old formula
was that these people are being hired before we get
Speaker 96
40:12
through and we get nothing out of that so so address
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
40:18
if you could address that issue yes sir and i think i think it is an issue and i think that we have created a system that has caused this at some level and the non-credit funding formula that we want to stand up alongside this is how we address some of that because our institutions will then know and have an incentive to create a shorter program that addresses the
core employable skills only and not artificially and extending a program to meet a degree requirement it's employability skills and when we help when we lift that formula then our schools will be encouraged to do that right now they're not but we're getting there another uh issue with your the point is that we don't have the data to prove that and we know in some cases that that is true i mean i personally i had folks that when i taught that you know they's like man ken i want to finish
i just can't afford it i i got a family to feed i'm getting a job i've already got this certificate this this this you know this this credential i gotta go and you know you don't understand so i think that we're working on that not just through this but in other areas where and there's a there's a project that we volunteer to be a part of uh with the richmond fed the richmond fed is looking at uh community college value outside of just degrees so when these these situations happen these and folks meet their employability uh needs and and their job
goals without completing a degree that adds value to that individual and to the community i think that's what you're saying and so we haven't been measuring that but we volunteered to be a part of a process or a study that will help show that
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
42:08
outside of the richmond fed service area so we're working on it sir so and i would encourage it somehow inputting into the to your new formula is is also this programs that facilitate someone going into what that program is is set to uh
in other words looking at something and it's going to take more data but but it would be looking at something okay like i might get out of a i'm just heating and air something so i'm going to use a heating and air as an example i i jumped out of my my course of study and went to work but but a true indicator and maybe it looks very well i i got a i'm being paid and everything's fine but another matrix would be how long did i stay there was that was i there for a few months
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
43:04
know. As an employee, you mean retained? Right. Yeah. So that's also a factor that should be considered because ultimately what we want is someone in a making a living wage from here on out, right? Correct. In that type of area. So more data
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
43:20
for you to gather. Well, you know, I mean, it's not perfect. There's a lot of moving parts, and we are continuously doing better in this data collection. And I think ultimately, you know, as we start measuring and funding non-credit opportunities, I think it's too much with non-credit because we don't have data to complicate our existing productivity formula.
That's why, personally, I wanted a separate formula, and that's what we're working to do. But as we gather data, because we started gathering data last year, as soon as I got here, I was working with a team that had already been working on it, and we were collecting some data, but it wasn't with Fidelity. So now we have higher expectations of our institutions to send us the data for non-degree programs. And as we gather this data over four or five years, it might make a lot of sense that once we can model it, we know what it is, we know how much work is being done and what the returns are for those individuals who go out and meet their probability goals, that we roll this back into one formula
after we have enough information to do it responsibly would be my goal.
I hope that makes sense. Members, you know, we're going to come back here with this group again, either next month or the following month. You see they have a meeting on the 27th. They're gathering data, and Ken and I talk fairly frequently, and we'll be back with this committee as we gather new data. We're going to kind of limit this discussion, but Representative Springer, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
44:41
I appreciate that, and maybe once I ask this question, and he can go out and get some additional information for me. So is this proposed funding from one that you're developing, one that you came up with, or is it one that's being utilized by some other institution? No, this will be
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
45:00
ours. The only thing that, the one thing I will say that was close to this is there are a couple states who fund community colleges based
Speaker 95
45:08
on something similar to this premise. But no, this is unique.
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
45:13
We're getting a lot of phone calls about it from other places. So
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
45:19
it's something very unique that you and your staff came up with. Well, we created the measurement and, you know, looked at just matching people's salaries to their degrees. How we embed it, we're still trying to figure that out. So we're still – I'm not saying that we came up with it, but it was an idea that we thought that we could, you know, something we could use to really showcase the
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
45:40
return of an education. And I guess last question. And I guess I'm trying to determine how is it that you believe that through this process
it's going to increase the graduation rate from these institutions. I mean, what is your evidence that that's going to happen? Well, until we run
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
45:56
this metric, I don't know that it will. But what I'm hoping to do is increase participation. Participation
Speaker 29
46:02
and graduation are two different things. But participation is a pretty good leading indicator because you can't
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
46:07
finish if you don't start. so I'm hoping that people buy into that we are going to guarantee that the degrees we fund as a
state show there's a better opportunity of long-term success for the students but your opening statement
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
46:23
indicated that you want to increase the graduation rate from 40 percent up to some of those well that was participation rate oh is that okay that's yeah because the
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
46:32
truth of the matter is yeah they participate at 42 percent but we only graduate about half of them So our bachelor degree graduation rate
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
46:41
is more like 23 or 24%. Okay, so you want to increase participation rates rather than graduation rates? Okay, all right, thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's a good segue into our next item on the agenda. Number two is your students and graduate outcomes for online versus in-person
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
47:06
I really just have one slide, and there is a typo on, it's my fault, when you say on 276 face-to-face sections, that's actually 276 unique courses. There's multiple sections of that course.
So this course was, these 276 courses were offered thousands of times over those three years. That's just unique courses. So we had 276 face-to-face courses in general education, and now that's everything from Comp I, Comp II, College of Algebra, history you know all the arkansas course transfer system courses is what we counted and then we had 263 courses not sections there are also thousands of sections and so when we ran the data on student success by modality so we compared did students succeed more in face-to-face
courses or online courses the pass rates are there so we had 86.6 percent pass rate on face-to-face courses and an 80 percent pass rate on onlines and online sections uh we i looked at a few data points on my own without running a full data analysis or statistical analysis on it i tried to find something that where we saw a much higher much bigger difference like maybe was it a was it a course with the lab where we saw you know a 90 50 difference or a 90
80 you know success rate i really you know after a couple hours of kind of sifting through the data i didn't find any glaring outliers but the story is that there is a marked difference between success and online versus face to face by 6.6 percent over the last three years in our public schools but it's probably not as big as as some folks may have thought or perceived and i'm happy to answer any questions about that
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
48:56
thank you uh senator boyd you're recognized
thank you mr chair so dr warden just so is that telling us that it's better to have face-to-face classes or is that telling us there's something different about the students that go into online versus face-to-face i mean what what are should i be inferring anything or is that just here's what this one was and here's what this one was I hate to infer
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
49:21
anything beyond that because uh you know you kind of get yourself in trouble without having the pure facts you know correlation and causation are two different things what we know is this this is factual that in those courses the pass
rates were less by 6.6 percent in online versus face-to-face when you drill into the demographics that participate in online sections versus face-to-face. People oftentimes question the rigor of online courses, but having studied education for a lot of years and being an educator, what I will tell you is the rigor of the course is not dependent on the modality. The rigor of the course is dependent on a faculty member. So a faculty member, online or face-to-face, can be as good or as bad,
and that's what it boils down to, in my opinion. in the rigor of the classes, not on the old modality, nor the engagement. You can engage very well in online courses as you can in face-to-face, depending on what the assignments are, how the course is taught, how it is led. There may be
Speaker 61
50:24
something in those demographics who engage in online versus face-to-face. We just didn't examine that. So
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
50:31
just to clarify, so right now all we can say is pass rate was 86.6% in face-to-face
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
50:37
and 80 percent on the online and that's where it stops for this particular instance yes given more time and if that's something we wanted to dig into uh you know on your behalf or or the group um we'll be glad to you know maybe look at some demographic differences or things like that if that's
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
50:56
if you so chose well i mean i just i'm like this just as a statistic it doesn't really give me any idea is
Speaker 113
51:02
one better than the other or is it go to the hoot yeah so
thank you yeah yeah members again we're not going to dive too deep into this right now that'll come later whether
specific occupation does better or specific coursework we'll let people do their research and bring that to the table and we'll hear a little bit about that later today but we're not going to get into specific programs or specific what's happening at a specific institution at
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
51:27
this time representative garner you're recognized thank you mr. chair and i just want to
say i kept my light on because that was my question as well. Um, Senator Ward,
I just want to talk about the demographics issue because that is a huge issue. More of our folks online or single parents or
working parents or the demographic, it could be completely different for online and for, um, in, in person classes. So I think the demographic is extremely important in that, in that particular statistic. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. This is just the, uh,
Speaker 50
52:00
the question I was asked. So we'd answer the question that we were asked yeah
and i agree we're going to have that get into detail on that a little bit later representative in it you're recognized
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
52:15
thank you mr chair dr warden i have a question um when we talk about higher education institutions um do all of them have access to
online learning yes I can say
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
52:32
that with with a lot of confidence I can't you know I can't tell you that every section of every course or every course is offered in an online modality but even it's just an expectation even our face-to-face courses have uh online tools uh even our most technical of courses whether you're in an automotive course or a welding course or you're in a you know a comp one course there's going to be a virtual component and a platform that where you have your
have your syllabus where you have your lesson plan where you have your lessons where you have a grade reporting it's just an expectation of of of schools today and
again as we examine these we'll try to have very narrow scope of what we're going to look at so that we don't get kind of off the wall. I don't see any more questions on that. We'll move to item three, higher education accreditation. Thank
Speaker 29
53:28
you, sir. I was asked to speak a little bit about higher education accreditation
and what that means and kind
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
53:34
of the landscape of that. So I've just got a few slides. This first one really is described, as described by the Association of Specialized Professional Accreditors, describes a triad of higher education. And the role of triad is, you know, the three entities operate independently, and each has a role in ensuring quality and independence defined or protected by laws. So you have an accreditation agency, you have your state government, and you have your federal government. The accredited agency itself is about quality in teaching and learning is what it's intended to do.
The state government authorizes and controls, and different states have different varying levels of controls. For instance, some higher education divisions like mine and other states are our boards of regents are much more dictatorial we are a coordinating board we coordinate higher education efforts and then you have uh the department of education the secretary of education and through the higher education act has obligations and funding opportunities what i will tell you about accreditation that in my opinion has one of the biggest impacts is that if you're not accredited you don't have the ability to award
federal financial aid so accredited agency accreditation for us uh is is a big thing for quality but at the end of the day if you can't show quality you can't award federal financial aid so i hope that makes sense and i'm happy to come back and ask any questions more questions about that really with the landscape of of higher education in order to be uh a member of of CHIA, the Council on Higher Education Accreditation, there's certain things you have to do.
You can't just couch yourself as an accreditor and then be approved by the Department of Ed, Federal Department of Ed, to accredit schools. And so in order, the Council on Higher Education Accreditation, CHIA, is the accreditor of accreditors, to put it simply. So all these accreditation entities must be blessed by CHIA in order for them to go evaluate quality and give people the ability to grant financial aid so there was a presidential
executive order put out by president trump recently and you all that may have seen that and it was about reforming accreditation to strengthen higher education and basically the order directed the secretary of education to deem what it would cause unlawful discrimination and to promote academic excellence and institutional accountability um so there's an executive order out recently at the federal from the president um and you all have probably read in the in the papers or saw in the news that uh florida has an alternative
effort florida really wasn't happy with the sacs coc so we're arkansas is what i would say is a hlc school our primary accreditor in the state is a higher learning commission that used to be the north central accreditation commission when the regional components were dissolved so now there's no rules or laws about this is the regional accreditor higher learning commission went from north central but our schools are mostly largely accredited by the
higher learning commission they are not sac coc like florida and we have not had some of those cross-grain things that florida has had with sac coc so florida created is working to create a commission of its own a credit of its own called the commission for public higher education there are states that have joined their their conversation and those include georgia north carolina south carolina tennessee and texas this group is not a chia member yet and i don't know what the what
their timeline is it could be tomorrow but i would anticipate and the folks i've talked to that it's going to take 24 months or longer for them to become a member of chia because there's a certain amount of things they have to do um i'm of the opinion personally that uh i would rather kind of hold where we are and see that this entity becomes a member of chia and then if it's something that we think our schools or the state of Arkansas should lean into,
that we do it at that time. This is something, you know, there's a lot of things I want to be first on. This is not one of them. I have been told personally and in public with the Higher Learning Commission at some of their meetings is that they are not going to put themselves between the higher education institution and the General Assembly or the legislative body of the state. They're not in the business of doing that. And what I've asked is Barbara Gelman, Delaney, is the CEO of the Higher Learning Commission,
and I've asked her to come to our annual trustees training conference in December to talk to our boards of trustees about what the Higher Learning Commission is and what it isn't and where they see their relationship and really address kind of their stance on the current landscape of higher education around the nation and how they're going to react to that and work with our campuses. So I'm happy to take questions, but just to kind of sum it up,
it is kind of a different place today with the higher education accreditation. I don't really feel that we should join the effort that's going on with the Commission on Public Higher Education until maybe they get the CHIA thing figured out. and I'm sure they will do that. I have all the confidence in the world they're going to do that. But I think it's better for us to stay where we are and then look and see how that goes. And then if we want to lean into that later on,
once that conversation evolves, then we do that.
So if there is someone who makes a recommendation for a shift, who makes that decision at the state level? Does the university make it? Does the legislature make it? Who makes those decisions? Well, the institutions can choose which
Speaker 50
59:38
engine they want to be accredited with. Okay, so it's not going to come before the legislature and
we're going to make a unilateral decision from what you know now. At this
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
59:49
point in time, you know, I guess that you guys make the laws, I enforce them or try to do that.
Speaker 123
59:58
Yeah, I don't, you know, I guess that could be done in
the realm of possibilities, but yeah. Yeah, okay, and you're not prepared to speak on behalf of the president as far as what he's
going to say, are you? No, sir. I don't think I'm ready to do that. Good for you. Okay. That concludes Dr. Warden's presentation. Anyone have any comments, closing comments? Thank you very much, and we'll get together. And members, if you'd, Ken, so if people want to attend some of these meetings that you're having with different groups you meet with, are those meetings open to legislators?
Sure. Yeah, just let us know. We'll be happy to have you join us. And so if people would contact you, then you could inform them when the next meeting is and where it is, and they're welcome to attend. And, members, I'd encourage you to do that. There's a lot going on, and we want to be
Speaker 50
1:00:53
fully transparent and informational, too. That's right. They can reach out to us or work through Ms. Emily,
and we'll make it happen. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're excused. Folks, we're going to move to the comment section. and again this
is a public meeting you're welcome to speak look forward to your comments but let's
keep them on the topics at hand particularly on the if it's online not specific to any school we'll come to that later but not today first point Joshua Silverstein you're welcome to come to the table. And if you would, please introduce yourself and you're welcome to present. And members, yes, please kind of keep your comments short. We're running past four o'clock and
it's getting late. There's a button down there right in front of you. Push that. And if you would, introduce yourself
Josh Silverstein
Unverified
1:01:53
and you may begin. My name is Josh Silverstein. I'm a law professor in Little Rock, but I'm here in my individual capacity, not on behalf of my university. Thanks for this opportunity to testify. I was unsurprised to hear the commissioner's comments that online learning has a marked difference in outcomes from in-person learning. Those findings are consistent with the research I have reviewed, including that gathered by
people at my law school and other law professors. Very briefly on some terminology. We all know what in-person and fully online learning are, but there are a couple of other definitions that are important. Hybrid learning is a course where some classes are in person and some are held online. It's usually 50-50 but it can be 75-25 or 60-40. There's also two types of online education we have to keep separate. Synchronous education is where the class is taught live, like as if we were on Zoom.
We can call that live online. Asynchronous education is where courses are recorded and students take the course on their own schedule. After controlling for the rigor of courses and the quality of students, here's what the research generally finds on average. In-person is somewhat better than hybrid, hybrid is significantly better than online, and live online is better than recorded online. And that's exactly what common sense would tell us.
We also know that most constituencies are not big fans of online learning. If the pandemic taught us anything, one silver lining is that people with kids and in higher ed know that online learning is not as effective. I want to use legal education generally as an example because a lot of law schools have considered moving their part-time evening programs online. When collecting evidence from constituencies, as my law school has done, there has been overwhelming opposition to legal education being online in any format, and especially in the recorded online format.
So why might a school want to have an online program? Well, one option is it can bring in more students, and the second is it can create new types of access. And that's been the motivation that some law schools have used to try and change their part-time evening programs. For example, a number of schools have thought that if they move their part-time programs online, it will improve access and thus access to justice. New people will be able to attend school, and they might go back to rural communities and improve access to lawyers in rural communities.
The problem is we don't have any evidence that that will happen. We don't have any evidence that we'll actually end up with more students if we move online. In fact, the people who want an in-person education who leave might be larger than those who want an online experience. Another argument, as I said, is about total students. And some law schools are worried about the demographic cliff that's supposedly coming. People started having fewer babies after the financial crisis, and so there may be fewer college students and law students and other graduate students in a few years.
The problem is that there's no evidence the demographic cliff is really going to hit places like legal education. And right now, law schools are doing extremely well. Demand for legal education is increasing. And many law schools, including ours, are actually oversubscribed when it comes to students. So basically, the evidence in favor of online is that it is a less effective product. product. And as a result, I think generally legal education and most other graduate programs should remain in person. Just two brief final points. There's been a lot of talk about doing recorded
online versus live online. And people might wonder why that is. And one main justification that's been provided is that with recorded online, students in other time zones will have more convenience in attending classes. The problem with that argument is recorded online as a demonstrably inferior product. Why would any school in any state use a demonstrably inferior product for the convenience of people in other states rather than using the better education methods, the better modalities for the students in the home state? I'll also say one last thing. There is a
compromise model that is being talked about in legal education that might work. And that would be where you preserve in-person schooling, but allow certain students to attend the same classes remotely. In this type of system, we would be able to preserve in-person learning that most constituencies favor and the research supports. We could use the most effective teaching methods, in law in particular, that question and answer can only happen when faculty can interact with students, but we could increase access for people who aren't able to travel to places where law
schools exist like Little Rock, Fayetteville, and elsewhere. Given the current evidence, that's the only type of program I would support in the legal education context. Thank you for this opportunity to testify, and I'm happy to take any
questions. I don't see any questions. Thank you
very much your testimony. Is it Mr. Shelton? Ms. Shelton? Mr. Shelton?
I appreciate the directness and brevity
of your presentation. Thank you. And if you would
Speaker 130
1:07:24
please introduce yourself and you may begin. Senator Sullivan and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to speak before you. I'm Dr. Cregan Shelton. I would like to say
Speaker 131
1:07:34
that is an academic research degree title, not a medical degree, and my practice normally is to use that only when teaching a class, however it relates to my experience that I wanted to talk about today. I have
since 1973 been a student in five postgraduate higher education programs and also taught both online and in classroom over those years. My experience has been specifically with the working adult population, working, trying to get through degree programs and supporting some of the statements that Professor Silverstein talked about. My experience has told me that absolutely if you go to an online program, having direct
live interaction, not only professor to student, but also student to student, is a tremendous benefit both to the learning activity and to the likelihood of graduation. Specifically, my experience in my doctoral program roughly 15 years ago and current experience as a full-time student in the University of Arkansas Little Rock program I'm in now, when you have working adults in the class, there is almost as much true life experience and professional experience
traded student to student as there is in the professor to student or teacher to student relationship. There are two aspects that really benefit the live, simultaneous, online or in classroom working adult experience. One of these will go directly and be applicable in undergraduate and two-year programs also. The first is, as I said, folks working in a field with live experience
that can bring that to the fore, and I have seen multiple professors even in the last two years at the local university really use this effectively in the classroom. The other goes to what I cannot cite as adequately researched yet, but I have a belief that research could and should be done on this. when the students are in the classroom together, whether that classroom is online, they're all there together, or in the physical classroom,
they develop support study groups, mutual support groups that I believe make a difference. And I saw this in my program 15 years ago as a student, more likelihood of bringing forward completion of degrees when people were having trouble. The asynchronous or totally isolated individual student who works at their own schedule in the middle of the night when they think they can get the time in requires much stronger drive and dedication than the structured group classroom where people get to know each other, where they can support each other,
and then create in the professional levels the post-graduation networking that can become critical to future success. Are there any questions? I'm happy to have them. Like I said, I've gone through literally five decades of living the experience and the transition from the all-classroom world to the online world, both as teacher and as student. Thank you very much for your testimony. I don't see any questions
at this time, so thank you very much. Thank you.
Next is Tasha Alec, is that correct? And if you would, please
Speaker 133
1:11:32
introduce yourself, and you may begin. Hello, my name is Tasha Alec. I am currently a part-time student at Bowen.
Speaker 134
1:11:37
I am also working currently full-time in student affairs and higher education, though I am here as a student. I wanted to discuss the idea of online classes. I have spent years researching pedagogical methods for increasing learning and student retention. I am opposed to online education especially for graduate programs and for legal education I am a law student I having gone into a year now of legal education I cannot imagine going through law school
and being as successful as I would like to be in an online program I have been a student and an educator throughout COVID and I do not think that we could give students the same level of education. I do believe that these programs will have lower outcomes both on exams and in careers and I do not believe that we should invest in a program that will decrease the quality of education received in Arkansas. Instead I do the urge that we invest in expanding and improving
these residential educational programs I have been on both sides of it and I really truly believe that the best education is received in a classroom especially a legal education the the interaction that we have with one another with our professors the cold calls as awkward as they are those help us to grow they are just as important to our education as our textbooks part of becoming a lawyer is being willing to be in an uncomfortable situation and advocate for what you believe
in. So I don't think I could be sitting here today a year ago. And I have law school to thank for that. I certainly would not be sitting here right now if we didn't have a part-time program in Arkansas, because I would not have considered an online program. I would have left the state so I am here because I care so much about our state and so much about our school and I really want to see all of the students that come after me have the same opportunities
or more that I do thank you I'm
open to any questions thank you I don't see
any questions thank you for your testimony members just to be sure you know they we've heard several speak on law school whether one passes the bar or not will be the ultimate test of whether or not the legislature appropriates funds for these so these decisions about a school having online or not having an online program that's going to be their decision and we'll we'll judge the return
Speaker 138
1:14:24
on investment next mr. Chris Corbett hello thanks for your time I know it's getting late I'll be quick with you oh
Chris Corbett
Unverified
1:14:54
Got it. My name is Chris Corbett. Thanks for your time. And I'd like to do a little small presentation, three points here, about online classes. I wouldn't have survived in law school with just online classes. I'm a professional engineer. I've got five degrees, three undergraduate degrees, a master's degree in civil engineering, and a juris doctorate. The three points I'd like for you all to think about in appropriating money for online only is, one, the limited practical experience that you would get from an online class.
I kind of relate that to going to the movie theaters. It's great to go to the movie theaters. They shut the door. They turn out the lights. There's no phone calls. You get to watch the movie, and that's entertainment purposes. but in the online classes you're there to learn and you're not going to have any distractions while you're in class. The limited practical experience you'd get through online would greatly impact your ability to practice law. Now being a professional engineer you might
be able to be able to teach somebody the equation for a line y is equal to mx plus or minus b. the Khan Academy is fantastic when I suffered teaching my kids math because of my professional engineer and have higher education in math I remembered well when my dad was trying to teach me algebra and I started crying when I was in sixth grade and dad was not having the patience to teach me math equations now there might be some applications for online classes but
law school is not going to be the way to do it limited practical experience online law school will lack in person interaction that's required for the critical thinking skills for courtroom advocacy client counseling you're not going to do that online you're going to people call me when they call my law firm they're calling me with serious problems they're not calling me to be happy and go get a drink they're losing their business they're losing their wife or husband and they need practical solutions
and they need someone that's got good people skills, not someone that's just sat and watched a video. Second, networking challenges. One of my greatest benefits of going to school, law school here and practicing in the state of Arkansas, is having colleagues that are in practice and doing stuff that I'm not doing. So I can call a buddy of mine and say, hey, if you encountered this problem before, and the reason I have that connection is because I was in school, in law school, in person.
And I do would like to shout out to a lady by the name of Deborah Reese. She saved my law school career. My first semester of law school, I almost failed out. I've always been a good student, but coming from engineering, I designed bridges and foundations. The answer is black and white in engineering. It is yes or no. I didn't get maybe I didn't understand maybe Deborah Reese if you're out there and you see this video thank you for saving my law school career and helping me pass the bar and without
Deborah I wouldn't have made it I wouldn't have met her if I was just going to school online and then lastly number three engagement and accountability online formats can reduce the student engagement and accountability and lacking the physical presence may lead to distractions and less rigorous precipitate participation um if y'all are uh practicing professionals pdh hours for engineers professional development hours uh cles continuing legal
education for lawyers or ceus continuing education units for accountants man you go to sleep online you know we've done it you back the video up what did they say that might be important um you're just not getting that interaction with people online. And so basically to go over those last three, limited practical experience, networking challenges, you don't get to meet your colleagues, and then engagement and accountability. And so if you're asked to fund some only online programs,
I ask that you seriously consider the outcomes of online only, especially if it's just recorded. There might be some applications somewhere, but definitely not for law school. Thank you for your time. Any questions? I see no questions.
Thank you for your testimony. Thank you. Mr. Steinbuck, you're next on the list.
And if you would, please introduce
Speaker 144
1:20:07
yourself, and you may begin. Thank you, Mr. Chair. As you know, my name
Speaker 145
1:20:12
is Robert Steinbuck. I'm a law professor, I'm a columnist for the Democrat Gazette, and I appear in my individual capacity. I want to talk just briefly, I assure you, about two issues, online education and the accreditation issue that Mr. Worden also addressed. You heard a fair number of commenters here today refer specifically to law schools, and
I just wanted to sort of fill in that picture slightly. The reason it is a topic of consideration or conversation is because the Bowen Law School has recently decided to put its part-time program online. I'm not here to talk about the specifics of that, but that's why you're hearing more interest on that issue. You aptly pointed out, Mr. Chair, that when it comes to law schools, we have one very good measure to determine that ROI, and that's bar passage. As you know,
I've written several articles about bar passage rates at various law schools and how they're affected by things such as DEI. And so I agree entirely with you, but I don't think it's the only measure. I think there are two other measures that we need to investigate. The ability to get the job thereafter. And that means what is the reputation of the entity and is it affected by going online? And I think there is a role for the legislature to play in that, not to necessarily wait for it to come to fruition that an institution damages its reputation. And then of course the
performance on the job. And you've heard comments about that already. I don't need to extrapolate on that why do schools go online be it undergraduate or graduate program and often you'll hear something about class size okay it's a fair point to have a conversation about but again it's important what do we mean by class size uh our schools and i wrote a column on this are for our kansans yes we welcome out-of-staters to a small degree small percentage the law school
just by way of example, has a rule that 80% of the students are supposed to be Arkansans. So if we're increasing class size, I think, again, the legislature has a role to ensure that we're increasing class size for Arkansans. Because if what we're doing by going online and advertising to California and New York to come send your online students here, it doesn't help Arkansas. Those graduates aren't going to come here.
They're not going to contribute to our state. And you heard Mr. Warden's participation rate of, I think, 42% and graduation rate roughly half. That's not affected if we're selling our product out of state. So I think, again, the legislature has a role in ensuring that our tax dollars are spent on Arkansans. one of the other justifications both undergraduate and graduate is for access to students well sure it's easier if you live in a far part of the state to be able to attend online
but if we combine these two issues that is ensuring that our kansans are our students and we know that there will be some cannibalization that is if you go online Some students, like Mr. Corbett, said, well, I wouldn't do that. So are we replacing our online students? Are we replacing our in-person students with online students? And if so, why is that a goal? And I have a concern. It's just a concern at this point.
But the word access, I must tell you, sir, reminds me of what I heard a decade ago when the term diversity, equity, and inclusion sprung up. Well, those are all good ideas, we were told. Who could be against that? But we know what diversity, equity, and inclusion turned out to be. It turned out to be propaganda for race-based preferences and quotas and set-asides. We don't need that, and we don't need it repackaged under the title of access.
The corporate world is telling their employees to come back to work. And the academic world is considering sending our students into their basements wearing footsie pajamas. We need to be careful as we go down this path. And we need to make sure that we make sound decisions ahead of time and not simply wait for the outcome. Those are my thoughts on online. Let me give you one brief thought on accreditation.
And then, of course, if there are any questions, I'm happy to take them. the body that accredits law schools, Mr. Warden, again, aptly pointed out there are a whole bunch of different accrediting entities. The body that accredits law schools, somewhat oddly, is the American Bar Association, because it's not an academic accrediting entity in large, right? It's they have one leg that does this, and they have pushed a leftist agenda throughout
their existence, including having a mandatory DEI requirement, both for students and for faculty. Senator Sullivan, of all the representatives in this body, you individually have spoken the most strongly against the problem of DEI. You enacted Act 116. You enacted Act 747. ABA pushes DEI. Now that President Trump has been elected and started to do some really positive things in higher
education, the American Bar Association put on hold their mandatory DEI requirement. But rest assured, they're waiting to jump back in. And so we need to be cautious about who we allow to accredit our schools. And I think, again, this body can consider whether we move away from the American Bar Association, into a body that is not politicizing legal education. That's all I have.
I see Mr. Brown has a question. Yeah, I'll call on him. I'm sorry. By all means. Representative Brown, you're recognized. Thank
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:26:50
you, Mr. Chair. Professor, yeah, we're not in school, so you can't call on me anymore. Indeed. Of course, one of the very few people in the room who's actually had a legal education and been there in the trenches, you know, this concept of asynchronous online learning is the most harebrained idea I've ever heard of, because that does not work with a law school education. For the members who haven't been there, maybe could you explain a little bit about the Socratic
method and the way that you actually teach law, and maybe talk about why going to YouTube University is
Speaker 144
1:27:20
not going to work when it comes to law school? Thank you, Representative Brown. Of course, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 145
1:27:26
And in part, my mistake of calling on you reflects exactly what you're talking about right so this notion in law school is dialogue it's a conversation uh and you learn from that conversation by the way so do i as a professor that's what's really wonderful about being a professor but students learn from that conversation professors gear the
course based on how those how that questioning is going no two classes are ever alike i spoke with the former president of the University of Arkansas. Remember, he was the guy that was pushing to buy the online school from Arizona, Phoenix. And he said to me, you can't do law school online because you have to have, or excuse me, Representative Brown, I misspoke. You can't do law school asynchronously. That means you watch some recorded lecture and take some notes at
midnight to 3 a.m. You have to do it live because it's that interaction from which we learn law. Law is not a series of rules that are in the books. You can look those up on your own. You do so, I'm sure, in your practice. Law is understanding the process of law because this body changes the laws at least every two years. So if I were to teach what you all passed two years ago,
it wouldn't be any good anymore. I teach students and Mr. Brown, Representative Brown understands how to analyze the law. That's what we do in law school. And that's why, for example, as I mentioned earlier, the issue of going online and going asynchronous, remember what asynchronous. Professor Silverstein told you what asynchronous is about. It's about not being live in the classroom, logging into a video or reading some material. That is not a replacement. I'm
frankly a little bit surprised that nobody from the administration from the university has come to speak in favor. You know, folks,
we're getting too specific here for the purpose of this meeting. So I
appreciate the discussion of law and we'll have another meeting where people would be have the opportunity to bring up specific topics Representative and if I see there are a couple of people here folks, let's keep it on the Let's not get too specific on one particular topic. We'll have an opportunity to do that today's not that day
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:30:04
representative Beck you're recognized Thank you, mr. Chair just a quick question I did not go to
law school. So I understand the bar exam. With the bar exam, if I was in Louisiana taking a class in Arkansas, would that affect how I would perform on the bar in Louisiana? Or is the bar the same everywhere in every state?
Speaker 145
1:30:29
Let's pick a different state than Louisiana only because they have a different set of rules than every other state.
So let's say Oklahoma. So generally now we have this common bar exam that you can waive into other states by taking. That's changed over time, and now there are some changes in the bar exam that might tweak it. But you have to get admitted by state, but you can generally take one bar exam that is applicable to most states. Okay, again,
let's not get into the specifics of the legal and the bar right here today.
we'll have an opportunity to do that but again today is
not the day that we're going to do that I lost my little
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
1:31:24
who's representative Varnett representative you're recognized thank you mr.
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
1:31:27
chair mr. Steinbach is that yes yes ma'am so if I do represent several constituents who have you know disabilities and sometimes their
disabilities will not allow them to be able to sit in the classroom all the time so how do you propose a person who wants to get a law degree who may be because of their disabilities might not allow them to be in the classroom a hundred percent of the time
Speaker 145
1:31:56
how does that work oh we've had that that we've accommodated that. In fact, I had a student with a problem towards the end of the semester who otherwise already had disabilities, and we use some electronic
means to accommodate that. That's a specific focus. I wouldn't put that under the rubric of online education, but I think it's a very good and important question. thank you I
see no more questions thank you and members again we will address some of these specific issues in detail at a later meeting and if you'll contact me if you have constituencies that have specific questions about online we'll try to bring those up for now seeing no more
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Report from Institutions of Higher Education for Annual Certification of Solvency as Required by A.C.A. § 6-62-609 [Exhibit B]
C. Presentation of Higher Education Updates [Exhibit C]
D. Public Comments
E. Other Business
F. Adjournment
Documents
Speakers
Senator Dan Sullivan Chair
Unverified
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
Speaker 15
Speaker 26
Speaker 29
Representative Richard McGrew
Unverified
Speaker 31
Speaker 41
Scott Richardson
Unverified
Representative Denise Garner
Unverified
Speaker 53
Representative RJ Hawk
Unverified
Speaker 42
Senator Jane English
Unverified
Speaker 61
Chair
Unverified
Senator Ronald Caldwell
Unverified
Representative Joy Springer
Unverified
Speaker 50
Representative Lincoln Barnett
Unverified
Representative Denise Jones Ennett
Unverified
Speaker 88
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
Speaker 96
Speaker 95
Senator Justin Boyd
Unverified
Speaker 113
Speaker 123
Josh Silverstein
Unverified
Speaker 130
Speaker 131
Speaker 133
Speaker 134
Speaker 138
Chris Corbett
Unverified
Speaker 144
Speaker 145
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified