City, County & Local Affairs Committee - Senate

First item on the agenda today on Senator Ballinger. We. We have a couple of members wanted the doctor with the others presenting of the bill center Ballinger give me a present is B. five seven three. Ballinger you're recognized yourself for the record you're recognized. President Senator Bob Ballinger the Senate bill five seventy three is is truly just a a cleanup bill so when when we handle the the enhanced carry a couple sessions ago the intent was to allow people to carry in public buildings well what some mentalities and I think maybe counties are doing is they believe that by posting no firearms that it can prohibit people from carrying obviously the sign posting is something that was the intent was for private businesses to have the ability to exercise their property rights. That it wasn't the intent for governments to be able to make the choice of whether a person the citizen has tried to carry in those areas are not still court rooms are specifically prohibited so doesn't doesn't affect the the court room and all this does is basically make it where it's clear that by by posting a sign you're not going to keep people out of these government owned buildings and. I'm happy to answer any questions. Our committee heard it next to the building he quit Senator Solomon you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair I'm not sure if this bill even addresses this so if it doesn't just say this bill that addresses that we had an issue in cricket council awhile back where the university has property leased to a hotel and restaurant and someone carried on their property and they were They will have their guns or that they got a ticket I think or at their concealed carry permit pull so does this address that at all not directly because of the property is leased to a private entity I think they probably still the bill to the post okay the fifty defendant dressing right okay thank you thank you Mr. Part any other questions Senator you're recognized thank you Mr chairman is just the enhanced carry requirement is regular concealed carry through inside government it would required just enhance care okay. Not that I wouldn't would be willing to to expand it further but that is to clean up this is with an answering and I I don't know I didn't quite follow Senator Solomon questions so if if if private individual's leasing a facility to a county who decides and the I mean is that qualifies a because the private owners still have the ability to do what he wants with this facility. So I think that that actually is is not as clear as I just said because the code sections of the publicly owned building owned or operated building by the county municipal so I think that even if it is a. I think that even if because it's owned or operated then they would be required to allow a person to to carry enhanced even if it's leased by private privately sold so situated being part of the lease agreement would have to specifically include that okay thank. Thank you senator Clark you're recognized for a question. So the builder I was contacted by the county judge who was concerned that this whole out of Kerry in a jail. Those are specifically prohibited arts but exempted out so those places are are prohibited correctional facilities or thank you. Any other any other questions from committee members. Sanders anyone in the audience would like to speak for against the bill. Thank you would come to rest within five years of the record you're recognized to speak for the bill against against the bill actually I'm asking. Server Stubblefield members appreciate this opportunity to exercise a democracy concept Furthermore I would to address Senator Ballinger if I may. The bill out and rules. State. Yeah if you go ahead of each state your name and who you're with the representative okay Robert Griffin Independence County judge. Representing Independence County our you're recognized to address Senator Ballenger thank you Sir Senator there's one simple modification that I would ask is that the paragraph is being added have the sex a section added subject to local control the decision needs to be made by the local entity because this is another example of how the the state has an anti domineering doctrine but it can refuse to enforce certain regulations at the federal government puts them. We are a subdivision of state government we are subject to the laws we swore an oath to oppose but this amounts to an unfunded mandate as well. We have I'm carrying right now I've got I've got a bodyguard three eighty only because this body allowed that to be done subject to your rules and inspection I came through the metal detector hello my credentials examine credentials we don't have that capacity in the counties the cities or the schools. The R. County owns twenty buildings. At least two entrances or exits at each one that are accessible to the public. It would be an unfunded mandate of approaching two million dollars a year for Independence County alone to have the same security to allow the same latitude that this body is allowed for me to bring in a a weapon so I would ask for there to be a simple ability for local control for the schools the counties and cities. Your. Apartments are you referencing the anti commandeering doctrine is that what. No I'm saying you have as a state have the ability under the anti commandeering doctrine it was up to code and Brady issue any in fact even enhanced to deny any regulation put down by the federal government upon the state currently we do not have that. So I'm I'm making a statement or that is a county I'm in subdivision of your body and we're there to better distribute services in a more efficient and effective manner that is what the constitution and the law prescribes for our existence so we don't have the ability to resist at all I'm simply adding from the asking for the ability to make a decision at the local level. Our Senator Clark a question yes of the judge and to Senator Ballenger how many ants hence carry permits are there do you know. At. I don't know I know state police have that information probably be willing to answer that. Can of and they might have the answer the second question to how many incidents have there been with enhanced carry. A permit. I'm sure I would've heard about that and so my assumption is that zero which would be my assumption too but I don't know if there's anybody here to verify that and Sir Clark I would concur that that is probably true but verification of credentials is my point if we establish the security you have just one person per door would be almost a two million dollar unfunded mandate to provide a level of scrutiny on the person that is carrying that they do have the proper credentials what your local security now to keep me out with a guy none come on in so it wouldn't matter when you open up the door it matters because then people have an expectation of the ability to carry and I'm a redneck probably one no school boards and I have a gun and somebody's got a concealed permit to know the can't you for nothing of the Arkansas will then carry I can carry so you you need the ability to identify that they are properly credentialed because you're opening a door of expectation okay next question how many since because I don't have a period. A Lawson's of but how many incidents have there been with the regular concealed Kerry because I find that people that have those taken very seriously and you said that they wouldn't take it seriously and that even though they didn't have the enhance I would just do it anyway so how many incidents have there been either one of you with a concealed carry. Permit unaware of any. But but you're saying there would be. I'm saying you need a level of security to scrutinize a person once there's an expectation to be able to care but there's no level now there is no no level and so although I don't have any kind of license I could just walk in. If you wish to yes but that's again is a local control thing thank you I do not have anything posted on the door prohibiting someone could bring a concealed weapon in. You senator you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman so. Do I understand that you're not looking for a change to make it where they can't bring a man but you're looking for a change it says if they if they're going to be a bring a man you be able to have the authority to establish the same protection or credentialing measures that we have here. I'm saying that that would become something that would be likely needed to be able to the owners a lot of scenarios not thank you at some schools here I thought served eleven years and on the school board with active shooter situations or law enforcement does not need to go into the unknown for a parent the nose they can Kerry goes to protect their child in the school enters more targets than what you know do there's just a lot of issues the local control would seem to be a solution so so so you mentioned schools of this of this allow for concealed carry in schools. No it doesn't as permitted by federal law. Okay one minute says other government entity that would include schools were not for the federal law. Are the government entity. So this specifically deals with the the fact that they don't have the ability to to post there are other specific code sections and even outside of the federal law in Arkansas that prohibits carrying in K. twelve education so that it wouldn't it wouldn't override the specific legislation that that creates a a car about a a prohibited place. I mean I thought this was the enhanced carry section of the code is it not it no this is not a references that enhance carried section the code so five seventy three three twenty two it is GNH is where requires the training. But this is saying. Under that code five seventy three three twenty two it's saying that It does not include entities which would include any government entity again I if you're telling me in your the attorney that this is not going to out of schools because I think that is significantly different issue than county building correct correct within and it should be debated in such so if you say it's referencing GNH that that code section GNH that's a code section requires enhanced training so is it it would be it would be consistent with what your person is allowed to do with enhanced care and there's nothing in the way you have this written out except for high potentially the cost factor that would prohibit the county from saying okay we can't close that you can't bring in here but we can established security credentialing requirements metal detectors whatever we want just like we do at the capitol correct it in fact let me say this for his courthouse he said he doesn't post so this doesn't change anything at all so many as it is right now the law says that a person has the ability to carry in a publicly owned building which would include a a courthouse does include courtroom would include the courthouse what what this would do is this takes out makes it clear that they can't just post a sign saying no no carrying or his situation would change so the practical effect of this bill is you've got take signs down. Date the absolutely thank you to take the signs down then they have it they still have the freedom to enact whatever security restrictions on carrying inside there just like we do yep and I can prove that everybody doesn't have enhance Kerry from Kerry okay. Part any other committee members Senator Flippo. Yes Sir Mr if that's okay with you I'd like to see if we get very clear with the state police to come up here and offer you know their perspective on this bill and what it does and does not do from their understanding that that's places that share assigned to make clear if you like to give them the title to defy yourself. Mary Claire McLaurin staff attorney with the Arkansas state police thank you chairman Senator Flippo M. we we don't have a problem with this bill and it I think it clarifies an issue that was maybe created in the haste with which enhance Kerry was passed a few years back the. This subsection that it is amending is in the prohibited places section of concealed handgun carry licensing and courthouses court rooms schools all of those places are still prohibited places under the law in other in both. Five seventy three three of six which lists out all the prohibited places for a concealed carry licensing but also in five seventy three one nineteen which is the per head of places from which is where criminalizes carry into a school and five seventy three one twenty two. so. The only exceptions for an enhanced carrier and one prepared to testify this one try to take some pictures on my phone and the only exceptions. For an enhanced carrier are and. Carrying a firearm in a publicly owned building or facility under five seventy three one twenty two in that statute there are clear exit exemptions for courthouses in court rooms unless the person has the permission of the judge that carrying a concealed handgun in a prohibited place listed under five seventy three three oh six seven through twelve all know that five and six. Our court rooms and courthouses courthouses in court rooms so that they're not permitted to carrying court rooms courthouses. Fourteen fifteen and seventeen unless otherwise prohibited under 5-73-306 nineteen or five seventy three three of six twenty. massive bill for second. So. Yes so what I understand I I've received several complaints from enhance licensees is that publicly owned buildings and facilities that would otherwise be open to enhanced licensees under the law are using five seventy three three oh six eighteen to place a sign and prohibit people from carrying in that area the law would otherwise allow them and to carry in that area and it is not an area that is restricted otherwise in and hang in the enhanced carry license M.. I believe that. That undercuts the intention of the legislature in passing enhance Kerry to allow people to carry in certain public places. Because if all of the public place had to do was then post a sign under eighteen then. Enhanced Karius doesn't exist right so. I also this is a clarification of the law basically saying that yes you can post a sign to let people know they can't carry a firearm in there as you've always been able to do it unless you're one of these places that. Doesn't have that ability and in which enhanced licensees were able to Kerry prior to in the original legislation. So I hope that clears that up and I would be glad to take any questions Senator Clark give questions. Okay so if you and Senator Ballinger can clear this up for me. You can't turn court room even with this we couldn't before and you couldn't with this bill courthouse. To the courthouse you can carry but only with local control specific permission from the judge. Okay in the courthouse but only with permission correct so if you are a individual employee somebody who who worked it out then you've got to get the permission from the judge sheriff's office. If it's in the courthouse. Otherwise you could of library. Yes because it would have except for the placement signed it would've already not been prohibited correct okay thank you. Any other questions from committee center Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman of Senator Ballenger aye I see on the on page two lines fifteen through seventeen cents a public building and I guess three twenty two GNH is is enhanced okay I've always had a question about an open space in the little rock zoo being one that specifically noticed You may recall one representative then representative Collins brought this legislation originally and he'd study this for a long time and much of what he talked about was where. Four children groups gather it basically soft targets for the bad guys kind of thing It was a lot of his motivation that and I and I I think Charlie did a great job of statistically analyzing things with the group is the sister not he he really did study it and I always felt. That. It in the little rock zoo sort of summarily dismiss the concept that someone with a concealed carry permit might actually protect children of the people that were at the zoo how would this bill affect eight eight The New or something that's outdoors like that like this act there's probably others because it was one that comes to my album that put this question to both of you. I think that'd be pretty clear that the it would be the way that they are avoiding the the carrying of the enhanced Kerry is because they're posting a sign just like any other you know a person so I think that this legislation would probably make it where if you're enhance permit holder that that the side with the president but I'm in I'm sorry finally what center would would would that prohibit them from posting sign prohibiting the enhanced carry holder but but I would actually you know be happy to yield to the state police interpretation of the. M. I can say for certain way how the public DO classifies themselves I believe that five seventy three one twenty two which which is. The publicly owned buildings and facilities statute Defines that on the developed property and and whatnot so it doesn't just restricted to buildings but I could not say for certain how this do classifies themselves and so what I have cautioned everyone who asked me specific questions about how. This place could let guns in in this place might keep them out is that they need to consult their own attorneys and determine how where they fall under the law and what what they are. You know so it's a consider. Okay Mr chairman by good quick follow up Senator Ballenger you said the judge determines who can come in the courthouse is that the county judge or circuit judge in that court room it be a county judge to the ministry of the so that the county judge can tell you whether or not you know we had an incident with an attorney that was. I'm. Challenge I won't say cost everything challenged at the last week county courthouse and he pointed out that he was an officer of the court right and and I don't know how that ended up being resolved but I can understand it circuit judge has control of his courtroom or whatever but what we're doing is we're placing the authority of of the. The county judge has the authority over the county courthouse. That is correct and and what I would say going back to the previous issue that that language is unclear there's a bit bill that represent Wardlaw just asked me to take Kerry that is made it to the house that would actually clarify that so how would it clarifies it just. It's clear that open areas are not defined as a as a facility for the code section in front of places thank you senator thank you ma'am thank you Mr all right any other questions from committee. Say nine thank you regular. We have a Mr Robert Griffin Griffin. Speaking. Hi Mister John stately. Speak against the bill. Yes Sir. You're recognized yourself. What County sheriff John Staley. I'd just like to clarify that the sheriff's office in the county jails are usually one of the same building and that's what our concern is a shares is you know even good people have bad days and somebody's there to get somebody out or a victim somebody's getting out of jail didn't get the sentence they if they wanted. You know there it will show up in our facilities with a firearm another with the training but I mean even the cops you see that we had some that the Division stupid things our goals are to protect the not only the innocent but we have some manager we're protect them as well. That that's only concerns that I've seen from the sheriff's. Is this it's a local control thing it's when you have a sheriff's office and. Now we can we do challenge folks when I come in the office we will talk to him say the accidentals and all that but. It's a when you're. We don't have enough people to do the job as it is you don't have some ice of the front door to challenger but comes in as president of that you don't care going to the sheriff's office we've got two instances where people had drugs and guns in the parking lot they come in higher drama try to go outside we Johnson find it. They're on our property and it was of course they didn't have conceal carry that and go to the process but that's on concerns I see the We talk about assurances the control that shares all the tension center it's a very very controlled environment just like ABC and I know that the says in some sections I just wanna make sure it's clarified in this. That. We still have control over our. Secure facilities. You know another member care into the. The jail itself because if you're going in there usually. RT patted down and searched and arrested but we're gonna get people carry guns and I support that it's just or certain areas of the sheriff we have to protect. And kind of vital and and you think that shares also have a bunch of chairs runner usually out on patrol yes the jailers are on armed and. Sometimes I can be an issue I I see so. Senator have a question do. And maybe this for Senator Ballinger so in a facility like he's talking about with the county have the ability to cordon off for say no firearms beyond this point as it approaches the jail area. I'm actually trying to look it up of the correctional facilities are specifically prohibited places so I I think the jail would be a perfect place to do regardless of whether you have the the man's carry or not. I yeah I I know I I I guess it's a little bit I can understand the confusion though is if you've got a courthouse and jail in one building. or county offices in a jail in one building how to how to the which which of those provisions is it prohibited or is it open Sir can you split the jail is in the courthouse then then we go back to the the language of the county judge and how they would handle it the the issue with the with I don't know how many municipal council owned buildings also have the the jail within the you know normal county offices not sure exactly how that works but it would it would be the same way where whatever the part that they would consider to be part of their correctional facility would be an area that would be prohibited thank you signs and keep it prohibited he added that the areas that is the jail right. And any other questions from committee members. Gary sipes the Director of the Arkansas Association of Chiefs of Police just like with the sheriff said we're not opposed to the guns are good folks carrying the guns my. Our concern is cheese is for someone coming into the police departments. With guns are they gonna be able to go to the witness room and at the question partly on the arm of if they voluntarily come in as as a witness and then as we all know once they get into the interrogation part of it is sometimes it doesn't go well that that is a big concern we of some agencies have core rooms as well and of court case doesn't come out the way they like. By combining good inside or or the department and not not Mr to the court remitted to the Department. That's that's basically all and we're not again we're not against the guns. After you pull it might just a little closer Senator Clark if question was the last thing you said the socks the you believe that they can bring guns into the courthouse no no into the department an agency a police department where they might have a courthouse as well. But but if it's in the courthouse. I'm just saying if. If there is a problem that happens in the court room it could spill out into the police department they go out to the cart barn building. But they could already have it in the car yes they can have it in the car but now they can't take a gun into the police agency if there's a prohibited outside the police agency would have to be separate from the courthouse court room. For those your I'm sorry yeah I can be in the same building yes. Well that you're confusing me because I thought that we clarify will go but this does not allow. If you're in the courthouse. Room the court room at all courthouse without a. The kind of information. Some the commission this is not counted jail this is sitting miscible. Corner remember referred to. Okay so we're only talking about a county courthouse then I mean I wanna be sure that I get all this clear we so you can't carry in a county courthouse but okay how about municipal. Of. Courtrooms to place where those courtrooms are that's my question can they take amended municipal how does a law affect the. Yeah courtrooms are specifically prohibited so if it's a if it is a a municipal building that has a municipal court and at the the building itself would not be would not be prohibited the court room itself would be prohibited at eight AM and I'll dress as a closing but we kind of have this this debate when we decide to go with the enhanced carry this just demonstrates the reason why we need this is because people aren't necessarily complying with the intent of the enhanced care in the present times prohibiting people from carrying in all sorts of lights okay Senator Ballinger can you tell me the what were exempt in the courthouse. And not with the I'm assuming because a court rooms and then and I maybe someone wrong with the not to place it holds a court room which were not in the original language there there was a effort to try to make that make that the. Basically compromise in order to get it done but that's not that is in in this legislation directly okay or thank you. Many of committee members of course. See non thank you which side like you. Mister Richler Richmond. Your term within the table on recognize yourself for the record. Thank you committee my name's Lannie Richmond I'm legal counsel with the Arkansas Municipal League and we've learned a lot from the comments today and like to start with and we oppose the bill municipalities on a lot of buildings hospitals libraries jails which which we need to go figure out more about base off testimony and this is a very broad bill applying to most of our buildings for that reason we oppose vote we're going to review it based off of the comments made here today I'd be happy to take any questions but that's all I've got. For any any questions from committee members. A Senator Clark you're recognized. What. What we oppose certain yet which we would prefer the localities be able to make the decisions for themselves when it comes to this. Over state will. in an exchange or in lieu of we'd never supersedes state law but if that was the state's policy we would prefer the policy of local control. But we have local control we have local control before we passed. This wall. That I'm told now by the state police that we supersede with signs. At. I can't comment on why we passed a previously served by you know that that policy thank you. Senator Johnson you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman. Mysteries when is there anything that the municipally thinks that the state government ought to be able to do without getting permission from the Municipal League I'm just curious because every time I see your face it's talking about local control and I'm just I think we all think that is a mantra that's that's a good thing but you know as it last time I checked the city's or municipal corporations are created under state law is that is that correct absolutely Sir so I just I'm curious about this not counties our constitutional if there'd been slightly different situation I I mean I think I can discern the difference although some people don't I just I'm just wanting to see if if if if there's anything you thanks appropriate for us to to consider as a legislative body and putting statute that might be contrary at and I can certainly agree there cases where one. City might want to do acts another city might want to do why and I think that's it but I I I keep seeing this broad brush being painted on every time people in the legislature come up with anything that might inhibit this this notion of everything being made at the local level I I think in recent hearing in this committee I allude to the fact that in some areas and I kind of mention center hindrance district you have a whole lot of small municipalities all close together there almost but they are bumping into each other and I just wonder first citizens have a right to know that you're driving down the street and you you thought you were in Centerton but now you're in high full and everything's changed all the laws change you wear a mask and one not the other you go into a building with this is a real long concealed Kerry here and I would something else over there is there place for state government in this absolutely Sir and you'll you'll notice we work with a lot of senators on issues that's to infringe on local control but we are happy to work with them on important policy decisions on on just about anything so absolutely Sir okay well I'm kind of with senator Clark on this it's a good question why are you opposed on this particular one and a half I'm not quite clear on the answer other than the local control and an individual decision by each municipality that is always the starting point sorry but we have heard a lot of good commentary today and we're gonna go back and review the bill okay thank you mistreat for thank you Mr are any other questions from committee members. Saying no Mister Richmond thank you for your excused. Anyone else in the room of like to speak for against the bill. Saying I'm center Ballinger you're recognized to close for the bill. I appreciate the the your indulgence in the committee I'm I'm actually a little shocked because before I sat down here well before I said I'm over there actually I didn't know that there was any opposition to this bill not been around long enough that I could guess that there would be somebody to be opposed to the bill but like just so people know I'm not really like I'm not intimidating like I won't bite your head off in fact most people came and sat down I sat down with and work with on legislation before and and radically change bills because of the fact that that you know something in my bill wasn't wasn't exactly right and would have been happy to sit down with any of them and probably we would work it out and they would have all come to the understanding that like a lot of these debates I I get where they're coming from I don't blame them for wanting to have complete control but we had that debate way back in two thousand seventeen when we passed the enhanced carry right and we made some concessions then when we pass the enhanced carry. All this really is the clean up bill to clarify what the intent was and that was that if you go through the initial training you've you've if you know your you have a clean record you pass the background checks that you have the ability to go into the. Buildings are owned by the taxpayers and so I appreciate a good vote and and the happy to work with anybody to to clarify things moving forward. Our system on you would you like to entertain a motion. Yes Sir. I have a motion do pass Senator Johnson second by Senator Solomon in discussion. All those in favor say aye. All opposed. Joue Senator Ballinger bill passes. Thank you Mr thank you Committee. I have another bill but I'm happy to wait my turn if you if you want or if you own that have either one. Thirteen you have thirteen twenty seven thirteen twenty seven the court you were going present the bill go ahead you're recognized but this is a this is to give something a little little something back to the judges that I'm I'm may be offending. So this is the actual representative Bryant's bill and what it does is it just clarifies the same thing that we've done with prosecutors we're we're retired prosecutors sent that we don't retired law enforcement officers that a retired judge has ability to continue to Kerry and in some of these places otherwise would be prohibited and I'm happy to answer any questions or any questions from committee members Senator Johnson. Senator Ballinger. My dad was a spring court justice yes Sir and I ask him one time. If he was scared. Of criminals Act the get out of prison could blame him for them having to go to prison and he kind of slept it off but that was in a different time yeah and we didn't see the kind of evil that we see now but I always remember that I was like there was a very famous case that he was. Person felony case and if a real bad guy got sent up the river and due to a lot of interest by some Hollywood types this cop killer got out of jail and I mean I didn't think he was necessarily gunning for my dad but these things cross your mind so I want to thank you for bringing this bill ninety nine point nine nine percent of people to get out of jail probably aren't going to go after the prosecutor the judge all that but that point zero zero zero one percent that might save a life so thank you for bringing this bill would you agree that I would agree thank you and that and you have the bill may have the same reason that that it's important for police officers to be able to continue to protect themselves and prosecutors that that reason still exists for for judges thank you Mister senator thank you Mr. RT any other questions from committee members. Anyone in the audience that would like to speak for. Against. Saying on Senator Ballinger closed I'm close in a shared a good vote on the motion. The motion to pass Senator Ballinger said you can't I can try that Senator Johnson. We have a second. And second Senator Clark any discussion. All those in favor. All opposed. Graduations thank you Committee thank you Sir. Senator sample gonna go and take your for a quick before we go to Senator Garner. For me. You want to make it motions. Okay. Since since this bill was put on after the eighteen hour limit without objection we will here senator samples bill let's Senator Flippo was to make a motion to put at the bottom. Yes Senator Clark bill. This is a seventeen forty to seventeen forty a house bill seventeen forty five. A representative McGrew. Subsample you're recognized yourself thank you for the rest of. Senate bill sample district fourteen a member's house bill seventeen forty five was a result of of I think it was Senate bill three twenty which is now. Which is now ACT three twenty five in this bill of a committee a community that I represent was left out. This bill pertains to if you if a city. Tranger police officer and spends the money to form to go to the academy and everything to be trained and someone else are urging within eighteen months they Whoever hires you managed by for the training. This bill says of their private community with a population of more than five thousand. Should fit in this bill and so. I will take questions. If if they hire him within eighteen months no if I train the office replacing it missed school in training and someone hires him away for if someone hires that officer or wait for them. They should be reimbursed for the training okay it is simply merits of the act three twenty okay any questions from committee. saying ninety one et audience will speak for or against the bill. Sam Nunn center sample your closed mind closed. We have a motion to pass Senator Flippo second from senator Johnson. Follows indiscretion. Follows favor say aye All opposed. Pressurizer sample thank you members of senator garner you're recognized to present Senate bill one seven one. Richard was give me one second for the. I'm ready when you are Mr you're recognized Senator Garner. No greater sacrifice to this country than serve your nation in our forces I know everybody in this room cares deeply about our veterans and what they did for us overseas. One of the things I do when I come back to civilian life is have you been training if you're going through something like that you wanna make sure you have a sense of security for yourself and your family I wanna make sure you do that legally legally and technically. I understand right now Arkansas is a populist carry state I think there's been numerous case law that can prove that based on the at seven forty six in the past and you're not required in many different scenarios to carry a concealed Kerry or enhance Kerry but there still are restrictions on where you can carry in certain areas without be valuable to you more importantly if you travel to another state to put adverse reciprocity laws with Arkansas if you have concealed carry or if you enjoy the privilege that allows you to get a far or faster to have one as such we know our military our will train you know they go to weapons and other kind of training what this bill would do which is basically it will exclude them from having to pay any fee to get a concealed Kerry license it doesn't affect the training they will have to do it they would still have to get from a certified instructor but when we come back we're saying Hey we'll do this ID will give you this is without any kind of additional cost on top of that I think this is a thank you to our veterans I think it's a common sense approach to make sure we give back to them and I think it all goes or go to allow the Arkansas state police to get out of the conceal carry game business I mean this is something that we need to move more more to as making an optional says we are from this Kerry state I think that every step we can take in that direction is good and I know we have speakers for this bill and ida I would give my time to them Mr chairman or answer any questions Senator was our fiscal impact on this bill I don't think I know I talked to Arkansas state police I believe is at eighty one thousand in my wrong on that they can give you the exact number I don't remember seeing the fiscal impact but we had informal conversations about the amount that would be I want to say it's eighty one thousand I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong I just that's what the pretty close. Okay. Part. Any questions from committee center. Well I mean since it doesn't affect the program. Kind of important to the state the state police should we have a fiscal impact from the FNA. Do you current riders for America you want to go the other title. Sure. The more I director the Arkansas state police. Mary Claire McLaurin staff attorney Arkansas state police art you're recognized Mr chairman first of all we are and we worked with that's a senator garner on this we're in full support of our veterans the men and women of our armed forces there will be a fiscal impact we we work with D. F. and I and it's it's going to be have to be a range it's it's no direct way to tell how what the fiscal impact will be just give me a general idea statewide the population is to meet two point three million and we have two hundred thirty thousand veterans and active military and that's about point oh six the population the very low end of the fiscal impact to be sixty seven thousand nine hundred sixty three dollars now if you take the two hundred thirty thousand veterans we don't know how many people who apply for this we have no idea but the the the permit cost fifty dollars so if you multiply that that that two hundred thirty times fifty S. eleven point five million dollars I wish I could sit here today and tell you exactly what the fiscal impact would be but again we had the concealed Kerry license for twenty six years and you remember last session we work with the legislature and reduce the fee by fifty percent and we increase the driver record fee to to make up for that you know one forty there is gonna be a fiscal impact to the state police I wish I could sit here and give you the right amount but we depend on that money to run the operations of the Arkansas state police not turn over merry care for her comments. And yeah I would just add that we did when we reduce that those that fee last session we were hoping to get a certain amount from the fee that was increase that would cover the whole as of right now it is not I think the colonel has the exact numbers but that money has not covered the projected decrease from the concealed carry loss and so we're still making and grounds there and the reason there was not a fiscal impact which we didn't find out until pretty late after Senator Garner filed this bill is because we collect the money ourselves apparently. If the FNA doesn't connect collect the money they can't. DO a fiscal impact for. So we didn't there there was a lot of confusion with that and I thank you all we also Jett Jaitley becoming explained that but so that's our range though the range would be at the low end if the same amount of veterans and active military that would qualify for this that exist in the population of Arkansas at that same percentage came in and applied for these we would it would be at a cost of the sixty seven thousand and then if you took it up to every single one came in applied tomorrow it could be up to eleven point five million now obviously probably neither of those numbers are correct in my experience veterans and active military are are more likely to obtain a conceal carry license than the average citizen but that's just anecdotal and and again I just want to reiterate that are only objection to the bill is that We are still dependent on these funds it was the set up that way in nineteen ninety five and. You know I think we all agree we wish that we did not depend on them for for management operations but we do still depend on it and any cuts obviously could have an impact on the agency. Mr if I could add to I want I want to compliment senator garner we did work with him I think you try to develop a revenue stream to fill this gap and so that again just not plow new ground is just a fiscal impact for us we support our veterans era here in Arkansas and with that I'll close let's you have any questions. Senator Clark you're recognized for a question is walk me through these numbers of two hundred and thirty one to submit. But again what we do the numbers. The numbers that I got from my don berry who is I don't know if I can remember exactly what his a. Title is but he is I've worked with them a lot when occupational licensing advisory group and he got me the numbers from DOD that essentially we have two hundred and thirty thousand and either active military or veterans and the vast majority of those are veterans so essentially the the two categories of people that would qualify for a free license under this bill currently have two hundred thirty thousand in the state okay in there what percentage of the adult population. I believe from the information sheet I've here Sir thank all of them are up for eighteen eighteen years of age or older that he said it's point six he said point six earlier percent but it's point six percent. Forty six percent okay of the sole point six percent. how many applications and renewals to have a year. For FY twenty one Sir we had a new license eighteen thousand three hundred thirty eight and fourteen thousand four twenty nine renewals well I'm just gonna take the two together and I'm on call. Six times thirty three thousand. The thousand eight hundred and one of those costs more than the other a yes for the new license the fifty dollars to a renewal it's a lot cheaper just fifteen believe having the renewals stay the same I think it might be thirty five. Okay fifty and thirty five. So I'm just going to take forty. Seven hundred ninety two thousand dollars. It's going to be a good estimate then I'm all take that times point. This is zero zero six nine point zero yeah if you're doing them with the doing the eleven point six percent. One forty seven hundred and fifty two dollars and I agree with you one thing and that was that. Veterans probably get a license neither one of us know that for a fact at a higher rate for someone double that and so what we have is ninety five hundred dollars a year. Which is what I would like to first thank you. Choose did you say ninety five hundred a year Senator Clark. That's not what I got sent to enter. Yeah I I I I follow the mass through and I don't I think the mistake came in the point zero zero six eight because we we U. went she gave you the number of veterans and you multiply the number of answers five point six percent so I came up with is about eight hundred thousand dollars. So. I used. Again as I work through the math with the numbers that that's the number that I came up with the I've never heard of fiscal impact is brought is sixty seven to eleven million so I know it's not easy to quantify it but I think. somewhere around a million sounds fairly reasonable to me as I look at. What are your total of fees coming in from the program right now. We have a. In the FY twenty we budgeted one point five million and we brought in one point four eight million left what twenty one we budget one point four million in FY twenty one we brought in one point three million so far yes so again there's no way that you're gonna have the fiscal impact greater than that that would be there were no fees for anybody right correct so again I think if the seven eight hundred thousand that that was to indicate that you're looking of at a percentage of the license holders are up forty or fifty percent which is as possible so I guess I as I said to me I I think the problem that I see and again I I I think I'm all for helping the veterans in the we've done a lot of things tuition tax breaks and other things and certainly it's well deserved. But I guess I'm also for balancing the budget so I guess I would ask you that is eight hundred thousand dollars what what is that gonna do for the state police what would you have to do to balance your budget. We would have to take steps to determine whether we the continue some services because it goes the operation and just you know we work this year with the legislature retirement and we get a seven hundred thousand dollars or existing budget to help within the thirty returnable to twenty eight so we try to be official or money but it would be an impact on this if we had to go another eight hundred thousand dollars back say aye aye aye. I agree with that I think everybody's table sports veterans for state police and I'm fine with this but I think we all need to understand when Arce gets put on the desk we promised on two years ago that we were gonna make a hole for the for the cut and the testimony here today is we didn't deliver so I'm hoping that we don't make him go to another two years With with promises and not deliver so I'm hoping that if we do this which is a good measure for the veterans that when our say get on the desk we don't leave you guys standing outside again. Our. Senator John do you have a question. Thank you Mr chairman of. I don't. Disagree with either senator hander senator Clark I have you know we always say there's lies damn to a licensed in statistics and I think we're you know we're we're it's a little squishy on the numbers but but I do see a simple thing is that the fee is half if you're over sixty five today and many the Vietnam almost all of it now I'm here veterans will be over sixty five so and again many of them may already be permit holders but it there's a fifty percent on each individual gap in your estimate formula regardless of whatever it other numbers you plug into it would you agree final council not grease very it's it's harder to quantify the court because and I'm fortunate we don't break the data down but who is a veteran who's not affected when they apply for the license and and and current again I'm I'm supported the concept and I'm concerned about making sure you all properly funded as I think all of us are I just I want to point out that that's a fifty percent discrepancy among those particular applicants so if I of the number of veteran applies for this you lose twenty five dollars and if some young person like Senator Clark applies you lose fifty dollars I'm just I'm just trying to to point out that that's a lot of it's a big discrepancy per capita that's correct and I think that's that's our trouble in in taking any stance on this bill is just not knowing I mean obviously then you have the seventy variables when you start giving away things for free you're going to have an increase in people. Lying as well you can't really can't even go by the existing numbers even if we had good good representation is nice thank you both thank you Mr circus Senator Solomon thank your next. Thanks richer I think we had a five. Well the five hundred million in surplus money five hundred point five I know it already Day Fund we we financed a group theater group and R. three million and the marshals museum far thank nine million over time so I think we certainly have the money to do this passes bill and fully fund our your budget not be fighting for that because I think it's a good bill I thank your budget needs to be whole and I think I'll do everything that I can to move those funds that are not as necessary as these things are into the. Important issues like funding our state police and also supporting our veterans so I appreciate the bill as appreciate you bringing this for us thank you. Senator Senator Clark you're recognized. Thank you Mr I'm certainly of not. in error when it comes to math but I was using their figures of point six percent of the population did you say two hundred thirty thousand. Yes the numbers I have as far as the veterans and active military in the State of Arkansas are approximately two hundred and thirty thousand two four put Senator Solomon said to not to replace that money we need to have some idea what that money is of. But if it's two hundred thirty thousand. But prince an active military in the state and we have a population of three point one. Then I'm going to just back off and say their support two point three million adults and I think from what I remember about him because we have an K. through twelve. We're not too far off it could be more like two point five two point six million adults but I will use that so it's really ten percent. Forty six percent so will create jobs math not mine of and so from that roughly eight hundred thousand dollars we would be looking at about eighty and if they were the center Johnson brought up a good point a lot of those could be older of but so eighty two to may be if we stressed at a hundred sixty thousand but AT being probably the main we need to know what the real number is and as a guy who works with numbers every day you can figure it out thank you. The card any other questions from committee members. Seeing none we have US people signed up to speak for and against the bill twent beach I think your first. You will go into the table identify yourself. I am language. I'm veteran an American citizen. My brothers and sisters. we're quick to downplay their contributions to society. With the. Visuals OR. Take the motor would never dream of accepting. And on return American provide them with services and other benefits benefiting their service and valor I would ask is an how many of you would. This country for fifty Bucks. That sense of committee members to better Roger for service knowing that they're putting their lives on hold except a potentially dangerous challenge. Skiing accident injury or illness or death in the process. The second as. The second fastens around the breast of the nation to go live with security and peace of mind. Surgeons may be assets but may regard the attack. A plane. Concerning amount military equipment that system storage for years or decades. This nation and this state remains to maintain under this. Okay just pharmacy expense one nine needed benefits sections of this. That have come out and they will vote on fixed incomes. Tired and things so that's a fifty dollars. Can really help. These people deserve the utmost regard for service in our nation so should reciprocate intent road that benefit the lives of our veterans. Manager not only highly trained individuals but they also have proven qualities speak to a value in society. Some members opposed. The role to honor and substance. Sure sure road road by providing them with special considerations such as this. Now my bill improves and valuable members of society. And also. Those are the rules now. This should be our heroes. The government would not send troops were in compensated disabled and the and the road for the suffering. Recognized and route military service to. If the government veterans programs is merely to compensate and vision for injuries hardships and the cost of service then they're doing a decent job with the government to help better strive. And protect their families. Then the program serves. Last time. I am at the shows and veterans better better accent Richey Mr sure. Since. Thank you. So to make services more attractive to future generations when the military is an option. Absence of a foreign invasion of crisis on a scale of one or two countries I'm likely to return to con conscription or increases as a military to appoint would fundamentally changes our relationship to the rest of society. Reasons to buy the action group get your cervix. I found the veterans are not always right to to self identifies veterans after service and civilians Alton thank veterans are worse off than they really are. Those particular those consumer after service misrepresent. The military explainer service to the wider population. For the support as does rely on a relatively small voluntary military success depends on its ability to draw in high quality recruits. And that in turn depends on the perception that service will benefit soldiers. The families and our country and this fifty dollars at a very small amount in return for their service. That is why we must pass as one seventy one I'm asking for due process do pass on this obvious aw. Veterans thank you. Thank you to Beijing questions from committee. C. nine thank you one. What. Speak for the bill. Hi my name is commander Pamela Boyd shields I'm a retired navy commander I'm originally an airforce brat so we lived all over the world though I did graduate from college here in Arkansas one of the main things that this bill will do is provide an additional benefit for veterans that's the big thing many of the states around us already provide this exact same thing for their veterans Alabama. Texas Louisiana. Tennessee has it up for them right now. This is something that would give back to veterans but in the bigger picture it would draw more people to the state the more veterans that you have. The more veterans benefits that you have will bring people into the state to retire here to come here and work that's the big thing that we need to be looking at when they're talking about the numbers and I heard a two three thousand vets you know the majority of those people well over sixty percent are over sixty five. And not every veteran goes to the classes to be able to get a carry license. You can still go to classes you still pay for them. We're asking is that you make the actual concealed carry permit complementary to veterans I cannot tell you how many times I've gone through shooting classes in the military I've also gone through shooting classes at the game cave in hot springs this is just this is an extra. Added incentive to bringing people to Arkansas and then there's people come to Arkansas they buy houses they ran houses they buy the food they get jobs they pay taxes. This is why I am here today is to just point out things that I don't think some of you have thought about you know the more people we have come into our state with good intentions and veterans are not the wild crazy people that that some of our civilian seem to think they are when I talk to civilians today until about my military service they look at me like I'm about half crazy. We are very technically trained in the armed forces very and we have several veterans in here today. That will attest to this. Anything you have about a veteran being well you know they're a little bit nuts and they might run off and kill somebody. They have to go to a complete thing to even own a gun. So you know the background checks and everything else. Please consider giving this to us this is something that we need thank you. Thank you support. We have a. Claimed. McLean to speak against the bill. Coleman Collins staff attorney. But you can. Sorry about that. And J. Morgan speak for the bill. Hello GenMark NO I am an Arkansas state police a U. S. C. CA and in our a certified firearms instructor I'm the one that went to Senator Trent Garner I've been trying to get him to do this for several years of irritated him to death about it because Arkansas right now a couple years ago we ranks thirty sixth in the nation as far as being attractive place for veterans to live over the past couple of years thanks to our legislators Republican legislators and Democrats who went along with us we have moved up in rank to the twenty fifth okay I would love to see Arkansas in the top five or top ten and how we treat veterans and what we offer veterans in our state so as a concealed handgun license instructor I it every single week there is at least one veteran in my class in fact at the recently I had a navy seal in my class and I felt so awful that this navy seal was having to sit through eight hours of. Basic personal training in order to get a permission slip from state police to carry a gun I do want to say thank you to state police for being supportive of this bill today and being very reasonable with us about why we need this to happen in Arkansas and I feel better now after hearing senator Dan Sullivan say that he would make sure that we make of that money because we don't want to take funds away from state police at all and it Dan Sullivan says he'll make it happen I believe that so thank you senator taking care that issue for us I would just like to stress that. One of the things I also wanted senator garner to put in this bill he did not and that was a waiver on the training because veterans have been through training it. Unbelievable amounts of training however that's we'll save that for another day and we'll work on that and of the year what I am going to tell you the that we're going to do is I've already been doing it is a C. H. C. O. instructor I hold at least one slot in every single class I teach that we offer free for a veteran and I'm comprising a list of concealed handgun license instructors in the State of Arkansas who will also offer free training spots in their classes for better and so that eventually we'll get to the stage where veteran if if he or she wants a license to carry from the state they can get one in the state of Arkansas. Free of charge all the way through so I appreciate your consideration for this bill and thank you once again to state please and to senator garner for putting this on the table thank you Arkansas thank you this mortgage any questions. Sam Nunn. Anyone else in the honor to wish to speak for against the bill. Senator Garner you want to close for your bill yes are be very brief thank you all so much covered thank you to Jane for bringing this great bill to me I think it's a good common sense bill you know I try to pass a revenue increase for state police to about the tune about two hundred fifty four to fifty thousand dollars to eighty feet we would primarily go after immigrants who do not pay their fair share of income and other taxes that bill failed in tax and Rev they were going to other law enforcement agencies well that would actually enforce our immigration laws so I did try to work on that end actually supplement this thank you senator Hollings point you know I tried one way that in funded I think will say very clearly we have plenty of money to make sure our state police are taking care in fact this is becoming more more of an issue with conceal carry licenses being a funding stream for them we should get them out of the game all together they don't like it they needed and we have plenty of money we should just make a general revenue trying to move on out because it puts is contention with state police over something that is very important them as something we should just move away from all together and us as a state with the five hundred fifty million dollar surplus that we have with us not delegate money yet through the RSA or through the tax cuts where that may come I guess a critical time to get them out the concealed carry game altogether that being said the first step that is make sure better versed colluded that's what I ask for your support for this bill with that I am close. Our. We have a. If you have questions Senator Clark. We have a motion I have a motion for twelve Senator Flippo do pass and the second from Senator Rice. Any discussion on the motion. All those in favor say aye. All opposed. Congratulations regarding the bill passes thank you Sir I think I have no little bit gun bill. This will have a fiscal impact I should not. Therefore sixty seven I'm sure state police local overdose. You're recognized president senate bill four sixty seven thank you on December seventeenth in pine bluff Arkansas to MT short the scene to help a distressed woman who was in the middle of what they suspected was a domestic situation there was a male there who was educated and upset also was on the ground because I can't speak to the facts of what actually happened but we do know is that the male eventually pulled out a weapon and start a fire on not only the empties but the woman they were there protect the empties for hit multiple times fortunately one the M. tees had a concealed Kerry and Kerry did port as weapon was able to engage with the person who was shooting at an able to probably save his life and the life of this bill it meant the empty. Of this I got reached out by to allow MPs five five plus my district and I'll see across state. And we decided we need to kind of work on a system where EMTs could carry similar to law enforcement or they could come in and be a trained official to carry without a permit and also to add liability protections for the companies I think most companies understand that they care deeply about their EMTs want the safety security and majority of time they'll be there what was certified law enforcement we all know they can show up the situation where there may not be law enforcement and if another unfortunate situation happens we need to protect our first responders what this does exclude them from having to where they can carry a weapon if they go to some certain kind of training or certified within the last twelve months and also add strong liability protections for the company who may want to allow them to do this we want to set up a carrot and stick word if you want a senior officer there to be trained up on your M. T. to be trained up you can do it and then make sure that you are on the backside liable for if they do have to shoot somebody or there's actual discharge with that I'll take any questions committee heard committee the bill any questions. Senator. Thank you Mr chairman so of. What kind of training do they have to have do they have to go through the concealed carry course or what what what is the training requirements on line twenty page for an emergency medical technician may only carry a concealed carrying on under this section if the air in the most recent twelve month period he or she has met or at his or her expenses standards of this state for training and qualifications for active law enforcement officer to carry a firearm so there's all kind of different courses that could probably fall in that do lead and other organizations and so that if they don't to do at their own expense they would meet the qualifications for an active law enforcement state and there's regulations on how that would work that I don't want to pigeon hole to a certain amount of training because that can be a change as we move forward and will lead to a a training academy says the training is or if this body finds in a different way to injured training so is the the and again maybe I need escrow Brandt this but the standards for this state for training qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms I would think that is a higher standard than the concealed carry training isn't it would be very much higher yes Sir for my understanding of a leader which is in my training my my area of see what they go through would be a much higher standard it basically allows EMTs to be considered similar to law enforcement even though we're not qualifying them as law enforcement because I guess in a whole range of issues of what their real world responsibility is so how does the employer verify that they've had that training. So that he doesn't have that so that he does have the liability protection that you talk about the next paragraph I think they were just asking to do it and she's making sure what if they're going to carry in their their vehicles to be the simple way to do it like an employer can ask so show I mean do they get this card or certificate or or what not magic distributor something else plus they have to have a ID that shows they are the actual had this kind of training to a belief. Are there any requirements for background checks yes there is a fingerprint impression on file with the Department of Arkansas State Police automatic thing praise identifies cation system which is in this bill and then also you have to go through a background check in order to do that law enforcement training okay thank you and I would like to hear from state police if they're still here they don't. No you know senator do they support the bill they haven't brought to me either way about it okay. Your of. Of no. I have written many EMTs who are friends of you probably have the same on my son was any anti here in Little Rock on a note the I went to many dangerous situations of. The often where there was no law enforcement of an express law to concern and support for a bill like this is is the broad support on the intake for this bill I would say it's mixed and this is what the. EMT companies are always concerned about. Some might be able to carry a weapon in some liability that might open up to you know we excluded liability in the legal sense but in the national media or situation like those be very Frank our law enforcement first responders are under very high scrutiny right now especially when you involve a weapon we know that the vast vast majority the impact well within the range of their duties and responsibility in a responsible manner there could always be the case so that's the main concern I heard the EMTs on the ground. You would hear a universally it's university. They all want to say that what you're that's who I was really asking about yes Sir just wanna be clear about I want to mislead job for. Are there any other questions from committee G. Senator god I see this state police is back I just give their thoughts on it and and particularly the training aspect of it. Right director it's a police matter clinical foreign Arkansas state police staff attorney and we can take a position on this bill it doesn't impact the concealed carry licensing scheme that we obviously are in charge of and and we sort of see it as between the individual employee and their employer anytime someone wants to. Make it. acceptable to carry. While they are working or some of these bills about the employer's parking lot and things like that so. We haven't really looked at it I would say that. The live fire qualification for a law enforcement officer is going to be more difficult than the average. You know this concealed carry license holder and the enhanced it it's maybe similar to or maybe even a little bit more difficult than the regular a law enforcement officer qualification but for a concealed carry holder all they have to do is basically demonstrate proficiency with the firearm that they know how to load it they know how to. what the parts of it do that they can I am shoot fire and not hurt themselves or others so the law enforcement qualification is going to be strict but more stringent standard. Is that training program open to non law enforcement personnel. We stepped up the rooms we need to hear some of the tests may I just give you a Senator Hendren an example say place we she four times a year we must qualify one time of year that's more questions for class the standards they set out but you know we we do our policy kind of similar to class. We definitely have to shoot a qualifying score once a year and then the other three are usually like combat training a different type of scenario so you know that the Arkansas state police we trained every quarter and farms. So again I guess what I'm asking though is since this is not the training required not to conceal Kerrier than hands Karius basically says that they have to have training that meets the standards for law enforcement where do they get that in Arkansas. Well they would have to get with class to find out what standards a set and then whether or not class or some other firearms instructor and stay within the law enforcement could work with the entities to do it would be my only assumption that that's how they would get the training. But you all in provided it would be third party providers or something of yes road or another law for sage they're willing to help their local EMTs to try to do it but again that's going to be pretty much a Class question yeah okay thank. Any other questions from committee. Are saying nine thank you Carine Minter. Anyone else in the. Room that would like to speak for against the bill. You want to come to the front within for yourself. I think we've got you down. Okay. If you would like okay I just had one thought about this and that is that major combat training but by the very nature of EMT there's will be close contact with the person they're trying to help. I believe that that might be me to be a. A provision that come out trying to be part of the training that's required. Okay. Thank you anyone else in the audience. Senator Garner you want to close for you yes Sir very briefly. The server was set into Senator Clark the conversations I've had with EMTs who obviously for very obvious reason will not name their names is they do Kerry right now. They carry a weapon because they understand the threat they're under. And they're always worried about by doing so could a wrister employment or have any actual liability because they are doing so it's a you to protect your life for protect your job situation this creates a legal mechanism for them to do that where they don't have to make that decision and have to make that worry and I think that's a good standard to be set without taking off on clothes my bill. All right we have a motion from Senator Flippo to pass motion and a second from senator Johnson any discussion on the motion. Say none all those in favor. All opposed. Gradually center going to build class. We have center Johnson you have a bill. Actually. All right if you want to go see of the table. Senate bill five fifty one. All right. You will identify yourself for the record we will. I Mark Johnson Senate district fifteen. Good morning Mr members committee Steve good and I and here this morning I'll natural state consulting but I'm here this morning speaking as a former director of Arkansas tobacco control so I do want to be very clear though that I do have a consulting client that this bill will affect so as I have been present the bill I want the members of the committee to realize that. Ms Mr chairman I In addition to everything else Mr good operates a business in my district and for mayor both him as a businessman and is a former director tobacco control nine bring him in it for his expertise and not for his influence per se so I just wanna say that this is a a bill to. I considered a clean up bill it clarifies some things in the law related to how rebates work in this very specific industry and I would ask Mr good if he could explain that for the committee. State question yes Sir Mr members the committee one of the reasons that Arkansas tobacco control was created in nineteen ninety seven was this very issue of re baiting or wholesalers will rebate to retailers to get them to sometimes buy their cigarettes and tobacco products from the the FNA had oversight of this back then the end for cigarette sales act and so tobacco control was created to prevent re baiting from happening. quite frankly though even though it was created in nineteen ninety seven most administration shied away from enforcing this bill this this led to either some tobacco wholesalers beginning the practice of re baiting or it allowed others to continue the practice of rebate when the governor pointed me in twenty two thousand fifteen one of the first things are staff asked me to do was to reach out to the governor's office and see if they were going to allow this law to be enforced we did we talk to the governor's office and they wanted us to simply follow the law I think over the the time of my tenure tobacco control we probably did fortyfive audits and I think that we were able to prove re baiting and if I remember correct three of those cases I would say I suspect though that there are many more that are re baiting and I think staff of tobacco control would probably agree And quite frankly yeah I'll take questions but there are good people on both sides of this issue some people are going to tell you that this is a free market issue and some people are going to tell you this is a something that needed to protect Arkansas businesses so I think that you know we're the committee to realize our good folks on both sides of it is a very complex issue but it is an issue that probably does need to be addressed. All right. Any committee committee members have questions. Senator Clark. Recognized. The no. What does the bill do it basically would allow for re baiting to be legal were wholesalers you know in Arkansas we have minimum markups give a minimum markup for a from a wholesaler to a retailer which is four percent and a minimum markups at the retail level to the consumer which is nine and a half percent this bill allows for a rebate in to take place as long as it does not take the wholesaler down below their cost of doing business and so basically it allows many wholesalers Senator Clark will will. There will be an incentive for you as a retailer to buy cigarettes from their particular sailor some you know would may offer you a dollar carton two dollars a carton two dollars fifty cents a carton for you to buy cigarettes from them versus buying from a competing wholesaler that's currently illegal this bill actually make that leap so we regulate the sale of tobacco yes Sir so it's not exactly free market. Again that there would be one side that would say that you're correct one side that was say that this is a free market issue like the side that says I'm not correct answer saying that's probably you. If it's not. Explain how this free market. Well it would be free market and then it would allow you know it would allow the read the wholesalers that wanted to to give the rebate to be able to give the rebate okay but I'm I am premarket like free market and you know I'm Bob with the sprint store to use a two dollars are probably twelve dollars now yes Sir one result radius you know I'm so for calendar for wanted in my competitors council per calendar quarter and we. that's not unusual in the lumber business but Toback has been different from that tobacco we have said. This is the minimum the Mr Clark you can't sell it for less than this Martin except for and so. Is this not a back door approach to the regulating tobacco. Sir Clark I don't think so I think it's just a way to clarify practice it probably is going on very much in the industry to say that it is it is either going to be legal or it will continue to be illegal. If if I could if further answer that to Mr chairman's Senator Clark the purpose of the bill is to create some equity between out of state to of. Wholesalers and in state house or see if there's there is a discrepancy I think that Mr good my can explain that further. Yes again eight and I'll speak back from experience when I was a tobacco control many of the. It is suspected that many of the out of state wholesalers do engage in the practice of re baiting and somewhere another so this allows those in state that want to be competitive with them to to be competitive. With what's happening with a specially larger wholesalers that are out of state. what again I'm suspecting that we that we have controls on to back up partly because we don't want you know. by your corporate and get free pad. Of we don't want you to buy one pack get one pack free we're not really wanting to the to be promoting to back up at. Of. The. But into the marketplace so. The I'm trying to look at the consequences of this because like that I can they can buy and sell unless there's a hurricane at about whatever I want to. The but the way I understand Arkansas law correct me if I'm wrong. Retailer has weekends only sale. They can go below Sir Martin yes Sir there's a market a minimum market yes is a wholesaler also the same yes Sir it's four percent from a wholesaler to the retailer okay so this bill allows the wholesaler to basically be lower right. They're they're involved invoice cost would still be at the four percent but it would allow them the ability to give a rebate if they wanted to for the for the business so it allows them basically a rebate I get rebate of Lau's them to lower the cost on the product through rebates. I mean if I get a rebate on the car four thousand dollar most cartel no cheaper right yes Sir so so you're allowed to lower the price on the tobacco of or let's say cigarettes by giving a rebate. Which means the retailer that who gets the rebate and then sell at a lower price. The the the the invoice cost is what and and I can't remember the exact code but the invoice cost your your calls delivered to the store is going to be what your minimum markup is going to be based off of not rebate not included I think I would challenge the if I were retail. if the building if we but always doing that at this and then and then there's no with no rebate another rebate rebate always lower your cost I think any judge would see that clearly rebate obviously lowers your cost I should then be allowed to sell based on my new lower cost. I think your point is well taken Senator the purpose of bill is to work within the existing structure and try to address the inequity if if you and I were given a blank sheet of paper to design a new system I think we come up with something a lot better but but the the temp this bill is an attempt to to try to create that equity within the existing business structure which I agree with you is not my exact model for help free enterprise operation I'm not sure how free market work within those controls but thank you. Thank you senator hello this. Will this affect the small smoke share this the schools malls smoke cigarette places but I know I a retail district it you talk about like tobacco stores at retail stores is yeah it is going to affect them. I don't operate in that you know I own retail grocery store so I don't operate in that area but that I would say that if they you know are currently buying from a wholesaler that doesn't give a rebate then it it gives them some additional margin if suddenly there center is allowed to read back to them yeah a lot of those are supplied ourselves supplied so the the wholesaler owns the retail smoke shops so in a sense it doesn't you know you may be keeping the rebate or you may be keeping the incentive for it your wholesale side instead of passing it to the retail side but if I'm an independent. Retail smoke shops and I'm currently buying from a wholesaler that does not supply rebate then it would be a benefit for me if indeed rebate became legal because they'll be able to accept one. Any other questions from committee. Thank you Mr chairman of the committee you're welcome. Are we have three people signed up Mr a shift Sarcos Sam speak against the bill. You will defy you Sir for the record yes Sir. My name sensor thanks junior I have merit wholesale distributors in hot springs Arkansas. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak on this proposed change to the Arkansas unfair cigarette sales act in the dire consequences it would have on all small wholesalers the other for cigarette sales tax act was designed to protect small wholesalers and retailers from predatory pricing. SP five fifty one will will basically got the under separate sales act in drastically reduce the power of tobacco control the state agency that was created to police unfair and illegal practices most likely put small helps wholesalers like me Adam business by giving wholesaler's larger wholesalers the ability to use pricing in a predatory manner. the bill itself has some major problems in this riding and is vague in this now a legal how this now legal or rebate will be passed. It doesn't state if the kickback or rebate will be cash yes so hello anyone know which reported as income by those that receive. For. If it's a credit to the retailer hello the back of controlling the FNA no if it's actually not below wholesale cost. Or if the invoice price first put this up for specific brand of cigarettes is reduced off invoice by a wholesaler it gives us an advantage a pricing advantage to the receiving retailer to reduce that price on that cigarette is competitors at a disadvantage and and and as Mr good said retailers are bound by law to increase the prices at a nine and a half percent margin so if if if if you as a retailer receiving the rebate and I as a retailer we're not receiving the rebate and it came off invoice because it's not clear on this bill then you would be added advantage and be able to lower your price in enough that would effectively lower the price of cigarettes by the way this bill was written. The proposed bill says it's less it's a it's it's unlawful for the wholesaler to sell it less than crossed into via and describes the whole the cost of the calculation to be inclusive of all discounts received by the wholesaler from the manufacturer rebates and incentives were originally part of this bill but they were they were were amended out but it basically has the same meaning it's all discounts again of one read but wholesaler's rebates and incentives or greater than another wholesaler's rebates incentives it puts the whole playing field that that off level. to close it states that the report these rebates cannot be used in a predatory manner in cannot be used to injure or destroy competition then why in the world would business be willing to give up a small profit of four percent four percent. Guaranteed to them by the Arkansas unfair cigarette sales act if they don't intended to use as a predatory manner with that closed please don't support this bill and I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have. Let me get this straight one more time the four percent rebate how is that going to affect the nine percent margin. Well it but by a by law by the answer unfair certain sales that wholesaler's required to mark up the cost of cigarettes the the Manafort factors because of cigarettes four percent and that would be the invoice cost to the retailer four percent above my cost this bill would allow but kickback or rebate but it doesn't specifically state how that would be given so if in fact it would be given off invoice it will reduce that four percent invoice prices downward and that nine and a half percent mandate that the retailer is required to market up would also go down by that that amount by four percent or board even more if you include discounts rebates and incentives and so forth what are the way could it be given other than an invoice three by. Well it could be cash is given as cash then the retailer certainly has the responsibility to report that as income but we all know that that may not happen so then it's incumbent. Hi I really know how you'd find out if the retailer is giving cash to their reporting it adequately if it's a credit then then it's incumbent on tobacco control to look at the credit into then do the examination of the wholesaler that is giving the kick back and find out that and and confirm that it's actually not below their cost is the way it states on this bill. Just got a lot of holes in it. For any other Senator Clark. Sam is is it your understanding of the. eight again I'm looking at the log here as it currently is says it's unlawful for any wholesale retailer sells going to offer a rebate in process so that's been the law and then we got down here the change in law however does not unlawful under this section for a wholesaler to give a rebate. Of is it your understanding that this bill came about because somebody was violating the law. I guess you Senator I can't speak to that specifically as to why this came up but I do know that there has been The situation in the in the near past that a wholesaler was was called for doing this yes. Thank you. For any other questions from committee. Thirteen and we have a thank you Mr thank you Mr chairman thank many River Beckham breaks to speak against the bill. I will do it for yourself for the record and that can Bates I'm a with basis everything and tobacco town. You're recognized. I just want to voice my opinion that I am against this I have basis during which is house of company here in Arkansas and. It was my father's so we've been in business for over fifty years I haven't been running for that. But it does affect the retail side to I have eleven stores all around Arkansas Okay actions Ozark hi Springs three in Russellville. The Malvern Jacksonville Paris Clarksville so it in it definitely affects the retail side of it I just want to make that clear that I am totally against it so I'm just here for questions I agree with everything that same was saying. any questions from committee members. Senator Clark. If the the smaller local distributors work here protection place. If the smaller house of companies. Who took you play the bigger ones. Are they mainly based here or elsewhere. Here thank. Any other questions from committee members. Thank you back in. We have a. Susy Munson to speak for the bill. Thank you chairman. My name is Susie Douglas Manson and I am with the doubles companies we are a wholesale distributor located in Conway Arkansas we've been in business for forty eight years and employee about a hundred and fifty employees and I'm here to speak I'm in favor of this bill our company we're we're defiance with a different business model than Mr stack is this business and miss basis business we or a larger for wine convenience store distributor we supply everything in convenience stores from cigarettes candy groceries paper products ice cream fried chicken pizza we do everything and because of that we really compete with large out of state distributors I have five major competitors are all headquartered out of state three are publicly traded companies and they all look participate and offer different programs that include pre baiting on cigarette products in different forms and passion and we have to compete with that and it is very difficult to compete in that environment and not be able to offer the same type of discounts that these these distributors are able to offer. And as Mr did testified to this is This Is been around for gosh fifty years we've supported this law in the past I have been here before in favor of this law that this could not be. Equally enforced to our distributors and it doesn't work. And and what it is that doing as it puts Arkansas Arkansas wholesalers that are trying to compete at that level it says at a disadvantage because we are held to a stricter and guidelines and stricter and help to the to the law stricter because where it's easier to come in and audit companies like as your their local then the company that's headquartered in des Moines Iowa where is headquartered in San Francisco were installed for Springs or wherever and I'm we want to be able to get out and compete for that business me described honestly the larger convenience store grapes in this state once you know once that are headquartered right here in Arkansas they don't buy from Arkansas wholesalers they buy from all out of state wholesalers we want to compete for that business model my family business we want to compete for that business we want to be able to offer the same deals that those those companies do. And I'm. You know we've we've been we've been dealing in this environment for a very long time. And we know what we know a lot about it and you know that that the point stated that Mr step back as product one of the things I say about this rule is about this bill is the only change that this is making the only change that is making and what currently exists right now is it is saying it's still saying that it is unlawful for any house in the retailer to offer a rebate in price to give a rebate in price or to offer concession of any time if any kind of nature whatsoever in connection with the sale of cigarettes with intent to injure competitors or story western competition said the invoice price is not going to change our entire invoice price we are allowed to market our products at a four percent of our because we all pay the same price for cigarettes all of this whether if we buy two cases a week away bought two thousand cases a week we all pay the same to the manufacturer for cigarettes. We will still invoice our customers at the same price all this does the only thing that is change it is is to say however it is not unlawful under this section for a wholesaler to give a rebate if the rebate does not result in the sale at less than the cost to the wholesaler. Lester discount center city by the House Senate but many factors how many is this is an example and is this rebate would not does not come off invoice this is something that is kind of like email winner rebate is something you get after the purchase it's let's say that I still I'm still in the you your office supplies and you know you're buying this plan for me and I say and I'll tell you if you buy your pants for me an order copy paper in your staples and paper clips Bob Bob Bob at the end of every quarter with Sam Macon forty cents on the spam at the end of every quarter I'll be back ten cents on every plan you bought me if you concentrate all your purchases with me that's how all these agreements work with these suppliers and that's how it's worked with cigarettes and what we wanted what we're saying is we want it to be lawful for us to be able to return a portion of our margin of our four percent margin if we so choose no one has to do this if they don't want to. But if we want to that we're allowed to return a portion of a four percent margin to the retailer as a back into rebate in order for us to be able to be competitive out here in the market place and go out and compete for these these convenience store groups. I'm so as far as this is change getting the bill it does not get the bill all it does is make it lawful instead of unlawful press to be able to turn around and give a discount back to the convenience store supplier or it or whatever top of the county is it's purchasing cigarettes for mass it does not change the price at retail because there invoice cost is not changed they still maintain their margins that they've always had does it change anything at retail the consumer's gonna pay the same price for cigarettes that they always have. And. That As I have any questions about whether anything I've said so for. You know I I'm sorry did somebody say something I think the main issue here is is really just about competition is that no matter what I'm going to address this you know there I know the comment was made that they're worried that big wholesalers will come and take away the smaller house OKS Taylor's accounts. The way that the the larger wholesalers they won't even stop there trapped for less than three thousand dollars they can't afford to eat they won't they don't make a start for less than three thousand dollars that size accounts and orders that these distributors are their top accounts. They're they're not they're not competing in the same market as these larger wholesalers are. And it's important that we do have you're saying we will take care of those customers it's very important that we do have a smaller wholesaler so that they can set supply you know the pharmacies or the the liquor stores in the smaller accounts at those big guys they are not interested in that kind of business they're interested in stopping at a convenience store this fine six seven eight ten thousand dollars stop and that they can supply the home the whole store and you know I think it I think honestly it gives a can give an advantage to a smaller distributor because a lot of these these larger stores that buy from these big groups they like having a secondary supplier this gives them the opportunity to go in and compete for that business and be a secondary supplier in this accounts and I'm it's just the natural evolution of business at some point no matter what size your business you've got to make up your mind that you want to compete anyone to compete in the marketing you want to compete for the business and its industry since they can't sell below cost so as long as you're competing and you're not selling below cost we are should be able to compete. Fairly that the out of state distributor should not be able to maintain this unfair advantage that they've had for years okay response we're going to run the little time we have any questions from committee members. Senator Clark. The. In the. In my business it's interesting that most of my career we all pay the same price for an insulation. Of fiberglass insulation I should say of. And then there was a six percent discount offer that. A six percent discount is really crazy thing who came up with that six percent discount off the and with and so the question became how may six as did you get. because I was became big enough insulation that I was a lot of sixes and then when I joined ace hardware who was competing with home depot and Lowe's except for best. The I found out that there were a couple more sixes but with the bill a rebate or whether it be a discount. The the end is the net process and not. Yes I guess. are you saying the out of state of wholesalers from what you said earlier a state wholesalers are violating the law in Arkansas. Of by giving rebates that are not allowed could you talk about competing with them or are you saying that that they're violating the law I would say that it would be considered a violation of the law yes so they're violating the law and who who is charged with enforcing that. The Arkansas tobacco control board Arkansas are they here. So you so you're saying that there these out of state distributors are doing and I understand that that you're you're having to compete with them they're doing it of illegally and you would like to be able to do it legally of but the and because it's not being enforced. Yes that's what I would say at the end has historically not been enforced. The same to everyone okay the that sounds like an enforcement problem okay thank you. Any other questions from committee members. Thank you miss much of for you to thank you. Art center right you have a. I would like to the tobacco control board to come up we have someone from the tobacco control border. He would come to the table recognize yourself for the record. Is our phone number X. letterman Forsman director for alcohol beverage control and and Arkansas tobacco control. Centrust you'll question thank you a wristlet I'm I'm guessing you're here as a. Neutral. Person today yes Sir that's correct I'm here to answer any questions you all have. In and what you heard today. in Senator Clark to say aye aye he may have more direct questions. The. One why is it not being enforced equally if if that's the case. Four as far as I know the state of Arkansas is reciprocity with other states that we don't want that the word but we can. Check out of state records check ours is that correct. Yes Sir any wholesaler than selling into the state of Arkansas is a licensed or permitted with us so we do have the authority to to check them and we have done audits on them in some cases were successful in improving rebate in some other cases were not so. I'm I'm guessing it is it. Or expensive and more difficult ideas to audit out of state. Well a little bit but that doesn't prevent us from doing that okay and there are and there been cases in or out of state that that I have had the judgment for violating the Arkansas law yes Sir. What range of those been. we've had Most recently we had one that was fine I believe a hundred and seventy four thousand dollars for violating the rebate in law in the past we've had and now the one that comes to mind four hundred twenty five thousand. in each of those cases it was little little different and one quite as aggressive as the most recent case that you all have heard about today. And that was for how much I believe that one was for four hundred twenty nine thousand. Okay in. So there has been a problem. Yes Sir and and that's what this legislation is is trying to make the legal. What has been fined for that correct that's correct. We we all the time I've been down there and I don't smoke. Would have a good breeze and do it. Okay. But we have. I tried to put a damper on tobacco use Mochan anyway. In. Your to leave we're trying promoted you're saying we've heard testimony that it's not going to affect the price. Are you can you testify that the that there won't be any. Difference in pricing. A tend to agree with something that was said earlier I don't think. I don't think I'm not aware of any intentions to change the pricing but I don't think it is spelled out completely and the statute or in the in the bill that's before you. AS one final question on these what referred to this big out of state companies. And I have like Senator Clark I'm I'm in retail. We we sell different things but I in the past I've had other things in the ten cash rebates and I've always wondered how they you know they pretty much with that now are is. Gotta love Molly's wondered as they could do stuff like that and then. We've we've and the ones that got the the. Special deals for special people. And some people can get offered and even if they could step up and do. Are these out of state companies are you able to catch them. If they're doing under the table get backs. I'm just lucky to get what I was well are you able to pay it is it is a difficult law to enforce but I think we can enforce it against out of state equally as well as we can and state. Thank you thank you Mr. Any other committee members of questions. Senator Clark. Do we it the last witness made it sound like and I think it's a retailer myself she pro knows what she's talking about of the this is routinely violated of. The do we need to for penalties. We'll keep the law as it is do we need stiffer penalty. Not I believe that the penalties in place or are sufficient I mean we have not yet reached the the maximum penalty on any fine that we have of living. far from it actually so I don't think that we need additional penalties We we just. We just need to conduct more audits and we need to All. Make a larger effort at a. Because I want you know only fair to the smaller wholesalers only be fair to of this I think was mismo FOR The. do you see I know you you are are not gonna be the final judge but do you see any reason. That I as a retailer if I get a rebate. Before buying more product. The. Of that I cannot make the argument that that rebate lowers my process of cost of goods. I think that is an argument what one thing that had been brought up at the under under current law. The wholesaler that there is a a channel for them to appeal before the Arkansas tobacco control board to get a lower cost of doing business so if there if the if they can do business at a lower level than the four percent markup they can apply and and receive of that but approval with with proper documentation yeah I don't know by Senator Rice put into running my truck down the road I'm still trying to figure out how to help people are doing business reporters. just the just the truck itself gas and driver I don't think we're going to close to four percent but so I'm interested in those numbers but but there is a as you said there's a process where they can show their costs are lower than that yes Sir thank you. Any other questions from committee. Are saying none no one in the audience was paid for gas. Art centre Johnson your clothes for you bill thank you Mr chairman I want to just thank all the witnesses especially want to thank Is Munson for comments a. Our business is a family business and Faulkner County I appreciate the jobs they create in our area I think she made a great case that you know this is not you know big versus little this is really you know very small medium size and big out of state situation this bill levels the playing field with the the medium size Arkansas business versus the the very larger much larger out of state businesses yes it's a goofy system I will be the first to stipulate to that and like I said if they gave us a blank sheet of paper I think the the eight of us on this committee could probably come up with a better way to do things however S. the late Rush Limbaugh used to say he was the mayor of real fail and this is a real bill this is the way that reality is and this is a bill that improves on it a long way from perfection but certainly an improvement so I would appreciate a good vote on this and I move do pass. Hi. We have a motion. The second. I have a second. Indiscretion. All those in favor say aye hi. All opposed. This call role in this. Yes several. Senator flowers. Senator flowers. Senator Clark. Senator Clark votes no. Senator Hendren. Senator Hendren votes hi. Senator Flippo. Senator Flippo votes no. Senator mark Johnson I. Senator mark Johnson votes hi. Senator Solomon hi Senator Solomon votes hi. Senator Rice. Senator Rice votes no. Senator Stubblefield seems to boast about. Senator Stubblefield votes no. Johnson your bill five. Thank you Mr. Mr Mr chairman I have one more bill if it's a house bill fourteen sixteen if I think we could go through this pretty quickly it's okay art you're recognized president officer fourteen sixteen thank you Mr chairman of this is representive Underwood the bill and course he's a freshman and I'm excited that he. What this bill forward this is a bill that encourages entrepreneurship specifically home based businesses and it tries to remove unnecessary barriers to working from home the Bill I think it's very self explanatory I think that the key thing to remember is that it would prohibit local government from doing things that would discourage the business but it it makes it clear that they may license and regulate home based business if the work is not prohibited meaning I mean this is you know there's obviously kinds of businesses that are prohibited period this doesn't open that up and what also allow without to limitation home occupation permits and licensing which would route allow them to restrict certain things such as advertisement signs or other exterior evidence that residents being used for any purpose other than a residence nuisances including limit oder excessive does small vibration noise light heat glare of the disturbances health and safety fire codes traffic parking building maintenance because protections for children elderly the infirm limitations on number employees things were tenancy customers of the worst things that would disrupt the neighborhood so someone quietly runs a small business from their home this would allow these things to to go ahead and these and many of the small business of course will grow out of the home and become in a more commercial setting but you know we all all of most of us have been divisions think of how sometimes we started and that's certainly my consulting business that I have for years started literally at the kitchen table it does It does not supersede any Homeowners association or other such restrictions are valid deed restrictions it does ask our game and enforce that if the local government does have to take enforcement action that the government local governments demonstrate that the ordinance is consistent with the subsection that defines all the things for the home based business I'll be happy to answer any questions of art Committee and questions. Senator Rice. I don't think this is some of my district the with what what's the term okay thank you have it or you get the neighborhood association DO es Blake is this override anything that they do. Eighty one one enters into an agreement to DO I say you buy a piece of property Senator Rice that subject to the covenant that delays involved then as long as the PO a dozen to and again that's on One five on the on page. Bottom of page two last line on page two on the page three it says it does not supersede an agreement between a homeowners association all minor or any valid deed restrictions and what that basically means is that's an agreement that the homeowner voluntarily entered into by purchasing property in an area that is affected by that PO way agreement it's a it's a a covenant or a there's another or I'm looking for to skate me at the moment but. it's a restrictive covenant that everyone agrees to buy buying that property and so you go in with eyes wide open it could include certain restrictions but but that would that would not affect that because that supersedes that is there I live out in the country I don't have a P. LA I can run a small business from my home as follows still does and the but if I were in the city this would protect me but it wouldn't protect me from a covenant that I previously entered into thank you. Are any other questions from committee. Sam Nunn's anyone in the audience. We speak for against the bill. Thank you senator Johnson you close I'm close Mr chairman or closed the motion to pass and we have a motion to pass a second. In discussion. All those in favor say aye. Post graduate centre Johnson thank you thank. All right so you know what the