Public Health, Welfare and Labor Committee- House

there's anyone in the audience who wishes to speak for against the bill haven't signed up yet please sign up on the sign up sheet assigned. So committee we're gonna go ahead and get started we've got two items on the agenda today. First item when I start with his SB seven thirty one. Senator Ballenger if you would go the on the table. Please introduce yourself for the record. Thank you Mister Committee Senator Bob Ballinger Senate district five you're recognized to present your bill. Thank you to start with only just apologize all of us want to be home and and I know that I know I'm like I realize like right now even with my friends I'm not a very popular guy right now and that's that's I guess the way it goes. I'm only doing this because honestly like the redistricting that is extremely important function that we have in a month on center stage to pick the committee because I know it's important but there's nothing that is that is driving my constituents crazy and causing fear for my constituents and and hurting them as much as this issue. So my hope was that the other bill get the emergency clause and we would need this the reason why this bill is important even without the emergency clause which the bill the head of you doesn't have emerge called real short basically one page bill. This would prob provide some protection for a person who is terminated when they go and they re apply for a job it'll keep where people won't won't discriminate against them based on their vaccination status so if you look at the bill itself is real simple it basically takes and then sets out that a person's vaccination status when it comes to COVID nineteen that summation is private information they have the ability disclose if they want or withhold if they want and then in the case of an employment relationship they're not allowed to discriminate against them based on them withholding their information so the concept here is. As a government all governments if they're really only legitimate function is to protect the rights of the citizens you know the question independent starts with that the ability to protect the rights of life liberty pursuit of happiness right. So what we have here is a right that I think is fundamental has a god given right to something that if it I think in our it in in our own hearts we kinda know that there's certain things that we just don't ask each other without there being some sort of strange awkwardness associated with that a lot of it is and health choices that's that's a private matter than innately recognize that as a as a right it's not something that we necessarily have had to protect because we didn't see wide spread abuses of it and so I think of the state I think it's becoming come but upon us to pass a law to protect that right because we see people who are essentially being crushed the third utilizing that lack of protection of a right in order to be able to terminate people hundreds of people maybe thousands of people in the state of Arkansas and only that so it's not even just that they are gonna lose their job which is enough these people are hurting and and I know that you guys haven't heard from all of them you've heard from a lot of them but I've heard from all of them I'm like they've all contacted me because of the nature running the bill and they're I mean they're just compelling terrible stories like people who are going to suffer a lot of blood loss you know what they're gonna have to move out of state or they're going to have to minutes. So in spite of not this not having an emergency clause which it doesn't now because it did pass the Senate with twenty four votes it will when this kid gets an active provide a level protection for those people are going to lose their jobs to enable them bill apply for another job I'm happy to answer any questions I want to keep it as short as I can but I understand I have no control over that representative Bentley you're recognized for a question. Thank you chairman and Senator Ballinger thank this bill I I'm not a lawyer as many in this committee or not so can you explain to me what I've heard from my constituents over and over again as a question why is shipping out what is he but not cover this and why they were they even allowed to ask the question to begin with what was happened to that right and can you explain that to me because I know I've heard that at least a million times of my constituents yeah I've heard that a lot as well it's because they're only covered entities and help us so medical facilities facilities that better but keep records of health care they are covered entities and so it Tyson is not a covered entity Walmart's on a covered entity yeah whatever X. company is not a covered entity and so they have the ability to request didn't even disclose information they're not they don't have the same legal restrictions regarding it but now there may be some liability if they would have as far as really information that the Committee averaging the person whatever but there's not there's no have to doesn't it only covers specific entities and that's not most employers. Yes you're recognized is there is there currently any federal law protects a person's right to privacy at all that you can see legally and I just I've been trying to read law and I'm not a lawyer so and if you can this briefly tells us anything currently regular or first one active right now that covers a right to privacy yes and even though I'm not I'm not a fan of reading into the the constitution rights that are not not specifically enumerated that though about the Browns of phallus to what our founders and I'm a textual is but the court itself as as interpreted right of privacy that's the reason why abortion is legal in the United States because they said that there is a right of privacy in the in the constitution but under the ninth amendment tenth amendment it it basically leads back for the state the ability to to protect other rights not so new rated in the constitution but yeah there are there I mean there there are laws associated with HIV that your that of course can ask about a person's HIV status and then there are other rights to protect NO a gender the brace all that when it comes to employment and and frankly the the anybody who's who employs people understands that you have books like stacks of books that depend on how in depth the careful you want to be that you have to comply with I mean it's asking about around the hospital how much government gets involved in the business. I have no idea what that time was for but. Representative board you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair representan Ballinger I'm sorry the but I think they I think I'm still represented in my house senator Alan thank you for being here thank you for presenting this bill I'm still scratching my head a little bit I mean you know why I know that you are not a guy who normally for you know as reports a larger government but clearly this is a larger government this grows the the body of statutes we have could you tell us why you believe we need to to do that and what the what the balances sure so you know at any time that would pass the bill whether it's a in order to reduce government to grow government we're going to have have the a new code section so that that I mean that part is is easy in this case there is a new Numis limitation restriction that we can set out there it's been clearly you can be held liable the you can be sued under this if you if you start meddling somebody's what what I would consider to be the private business. Well like I said that's kind of the role of government is that if there is some inalienable rights on natural right it's better if that that if as a society we just understand our balance in that society does that on its own without government involvement the government itself is instituted with the intent to protect those rights that's the only that is the only legitimate role of government is to be out there to protect those rights in fact I mean it the declaration independence is what said Hey we're suffering from this and why because the rights of the government should only be instituted protect rights and that's what that's what this is to say okay we believe a person should have a right to privacy this probably is never needed to to have a code section before but now we're in a time where all the sudden what was what was things we just understood about people just rights of people had because of of the pandemic we've kind of went crazy and we've just said you know okay we are worried about those natural boundaries anymore and and I'm just it and you know I wouldn't be worried about this except for you know I probably just Bryant yeah he came to me with the issue we started talking about it and I have a whole bunch of people getting fired and I and I knew it wasn't right it was wrong for that they would be getting canned or something really it's not anyone else's business and so we we worked on trying to budge do bunch of different things. It because I am honored businesses because I don't want government involved in business life because I don't want government to grow trying to find different ways to figure out how to manage it and really the best way to do it from my standpoint is not to worry about regulated businesses not even worry about creating a new new protected class saying okay there's some rights that is that there is a body we say you know you have a right to carry a gun and so we are going to do whatever we can to to football's out there to protect the right the person to do that you should have a right to your own information when it comes to your your health status and where it's really getting violated is is in cover nineteen vaccination status so that's why why you know you want if you want to say is growing government if I'm all for growing government of what it is is grown government to stop people from hurting violating other people's rights and one real quick thing is. I understand that. There is there is no public you know absolute clear line between the federal government requiring or or asking it to do what it couldn't do on its own when it comes to some of our big employers however when you ask the big employers why they're doing what they're doing it's all about need to get more people backs it is all about it's the same agenda exactly the same agenda that you're getting from the federal government that they're essentially going in carrying out what the federal government is asked to do it and honestly it doesn't matter to me whether the group of thugs that came in and beat me up are you know actually employed by that by the federal government or if they are contracted with by the federal government to do that if they're coming up in violating my rights on behalf of the federal government they're still doing it that's still government coming in and doing that and I think that honestly are big employers what they've done is they've said we want to be good corporate citizens we want to be seen as as friendly we want to be seen as frankly woke and they're going to do what they can to demonstrate that and that's what that's what we're at today what were read today is is we're dealing with this issue I wish we weren't dealing with because we have businesses that they're going to do that and they were okay with questions rights of my constituents and doing it and so I am not could fail that I would do everything I can to try to help. Representative Davis did you have a question you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman thank you senator Yes I appreciate your call apology on the front end. It's well warranted. We'll. I mean I don't know where to start okay so adamant questions they got side tracked on the issue stated I think correct me if I'm wrong that. You have got with the representative Ryan and there were a bunch of people fired and that's why you're here well it it honestly at that point when we got engaged on this they're at I don't know that anybody has been fired so this was back prior to our special session in that little we we were at a at a meeting together and he was faced with with some constituents who are facing I was faced with constituents are facing it and so we work with a group of lot thank lot of other people to try to figure out how do we how do we address this and and ultimately this is the the bill that the it came down to one seven nineteen is what got fired filed way back during the special session and this is basically the same person. Follow up message here yes you're recognized so. And I get a lot more after this however so you don't know specifically. The date the somebody's been fired because of what we're talking about here today no no I know the vaccine and I know a lot of people you desired I'm getting the calls the tax a lot of people who've already lost their job a lot a lot of people hundreds of people who've already lost their job okay now that's not what the biggest numbers going to come the round end of October beginning of November with the new wave but then it's not over that's without the federal mandate coming down this is about to get real for us we're about to see. The biggest crisis that that we have ever faced it's going to be really hard and so the question is do we take steps to try to try to protect the ballot to take steps can we take baby steps because this does not emergency clause can we do something to try to to to offset it my hope is. Those rule there is no final as a rule and it'll be immediately challenged as soon as it's released my hope is that there will be a lawsuit and that'll that'll be stayed eventually it'll be the adjudicated as as in violation of the constitution the other issue with this we're facing is CMS rules which are not finalized yet but but could come out and they're the same time that people have threatened to file a lawsuit my hope is that they get stated eventually that that it they say it's an overreach of federal government they can't use the power of the purse to dictate their their agenda that's established case law may and so my hope is that that they get state as well but if not black of those going to affect them we're gonna have a we have a crisis and will have to address but the reality is I don't want to one that I want to do nothing because we know that we have federal laws coming down we'll do everything we can to push back against that when we have opted to do that and without that we're about to face so the coming crisis in and we can opt into something or not and that's where I'm at. Representative ray you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair Senator Ballinger guess you know I understand where you're coming from and I voted yes very adamantly on the bill Josh representative Bryant's bill that we passed off the bat here and off the floor and so I understand want to protect our constituents in general and also you know trying to find that balance between what works for business and for our constituents my question or one of them on this is. You're hoping that the your words were you hope is that they get state talking about the CMS rakes that they'll be pushing out so let's talk about what happens if they don't you have no exclusion in here for that mandates let's take my hospital for example about sixteen hundred employees because this is now going to be a civil rights violation I'm looking at three hundred thousand dollars time sixteen hundred employees as like four hundred eighty million dollars so what would you tell my hospital either you either violate state law or you no longer get Medicare and Medicaid which probably makes up you know seventy percent of your total business what would what would you have me tell them yeah I think that that is I think that's going to be common and and most especially small rural hospitals all House bills will be facing that and on the on the other bill I appreciate your help and frankly I've said this before I mean it used your co sponsored help on the bill line you provided some input that that I think was really valuable the and and as a as a house member you guys kept emergency clause together you guys have done everything you're supposed to do and now here you are stuck here today would you guys should have already been home to to deal with this and I you know I I I hate that for you that you're suffering from that but. At this point we don't have any final semester. So I would not want to legislate guessing about what the role is going to come out what exceptions and exclusions may be in the rule and whether or not the rule even becomes law. I don't want to I mean honestly we came to the fed's before we even know what the feds the have given us to cave to right you know like let's wait until we see what the rule is let's wait and see if it's up held and if that's the case then if we're faced with a hospital setting down we're going to have to fix it we can't we can't if that's if that is the conflict now it's different with the OSHA rules those rules are a little bit different because of it it's up held which I don't think it will be I don't think CMS role will be either but is more likely to CMS role will be upheld the motion role with OSHA rule if it's up held as a as a valid rule which is not a there's there's guidance now there is no rule with ocean related to a bill is good and then you have the the the departments clause that would say that our our law in if it's not however were not consistent with that our law would be subject to the federal law and so that would be an issue there CMS is a little bit different it's possible that we could end up needing to be called into your peer to a special session for deal with this in a fiscal session if the if there is a conflict we can overcome but I'm not willing to give up yet I mean I'm not willing to say yeah okay said you can do whatever you want you can require us to mandate vaccines even though we don't want to make mandate vaccines I want to give it some tool out there to push in fact the conflict is a good thing because it forces the the the education my hope is that it's it's a judicata nobody I don't think anybody in here as once the new new CMS role to come in to be most people don't want the new CMS role you know there will be a lot of Attorney General's fighting it I hope it's immediately state it probably will be just like the I'm sure will be. Bring that lawsuit everybody if anyone's listen do it down in Dallas because good place to bring about a lawsuit right so that's going to happen. And when that happens then we're going to be what we're going to have some time to work on it think about it will probably back here in a special session before that that's every misstep but if it is all right now I'll say governor I'm on board with calmness down here for for special session to deal with that if we got to because I don't want my hospitals now but I also don't want to give in I want to cater to this before we even have a form final rule look. President of Eubanks erected you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr Senator Ballenger aye a have to mercy facilities Tyson facility and two walmarts and my my district and I thank mercy I don't know when they made their announcements but it's been what six weeks ago at least or. Or maybe even longer and I don't know I can't remember what the deadlines were but I think it was that we were right on top of my right now and I had. One person contact me in my district. Now and I'm I'm serious now I've gotten all kinds of texts and emails this week and I don't know where all of those are coming from but most a lot of them most of them I have area codes that are in my district but. When with this bill going to affect. This bill go into effect sometime in early January and actually got a map but it's ninety days follow up Mister jester recognized I've got a text here that I just received and it's an and this person says I'm a twenty year career E. R. nurse I want you to know that I will be fired if this bill does not pass and I don't think that's true I don't think this bill is going to protect that person if they are if if they're already under a deadline so I'm afraid that there's a lot of people out there that don't understand what's taking place here today I'm not saying that that's a reason not to pass the bill I'm just saying I think a lot of people are getting a lot of false hope right now because they think that this is going to protect them from what's gonna take place in the next month or six weeks and I don't I don't think that's fair. To the to the public out there right now. Yeah did you do you understand what I'm yeah I don't I'm I don't know how somebody could of watch the center of the last week could not understand you know everything clearly and that's where would confusion come from. The. The the reality is I think you hit that I think you hit the nail on the head like there is nothing in this bill is going to help anybody under law for ninety days we lost emergency because we can get all the votes we need for ninety days on the now my hope is because this is a little bit different in the fact that we are protecting a right of privacy. It's going to be really awkward if they don't get their policies in place with this before it comes into an effect so the a good example is since you're not discriminate against a person and when it comes to hiring which is distinctive than the other the other bills great bill is way better if we can get enough then place before people get fired but but the and and I would may help people from keep people getting fired from the next up but if a person gets gets fired they were twenty years at Tyson and concerning keeping on Tyson but you know it is what it is twenty years of Tyson that had a great record showed up on time great reviews over and over and over again learn some very specific skills so skills that are not easy to to transmit other places you know they get fired in November. And they're not able to find a job until January if they come back and may apply for that job now I know that Tyson's corner policy is they don't hire people they got fired but they got fired because they would get a vaccination you're not allowed to ask about the vaccination status as an attorney advising them there's a whole list of things you don't even ask person applying one of them's going to be don't ask what your vaccination status they're gonna have a hard time since they're presenting thank you so much qualified I'm the guy who's who's randomizing fact that machine I've worked on the you got to worry about this this and this I am clearly the most qualified in use that I'm the most qualified so why aren't you heard me right so from purely legal standpoint they're gonna have a hard time justifying is of the value of this is the that though the Arteon who worked she's had great reviews if she ends up not finding another place because he does want to take a kid out of her senior year of high school she is not found another place because she doesn't doesn't know her husband has a good job locally and and they don't wanna have to move she hasn't found another place by by January she goes back in applies at the hospital the hospital better not ask for better vaccination status or else they could be superdisk discrimination now they don't have to implement a policy right now there's not even a federal law that nothing right so at least you know until that comes down and by the way let me say this. The federal government knows as soon as they release of final policy that at that point people have grounds for a lawsuit they haven't given us to find out how we want to thank him out The hundred employers are more as a while back. They they are going to be slow about releasing it because as soon as it comes out as a rule then you can file a lawsuit and it could be state as if you leave it out there the club as the excuse for employers to use to tell people that they have to give vaccinated then or that they're gonna lose their their their Medicaid money with the CMS role you leave it out there that you don't have to worry about getting sued so my guess is that's why they're slow playing the release of it I don't know that I have the other than it just makes for a valuable tool for them to leave it sitting around out there so who knows if even by January they'll be a final rule I don't know that I don't want another. Representative when you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair so we're in a situation where we've got. Stated intent but nothing firm from the feds with both CMS and OSHA we got a little bit more indication with OSHA but still nothing nothing firm to do is it your intention that with this bill this would give of the employees who are fearful of losing their job either a temporary reprieve in the sense that if we pass this employers may be less inclined to go through with those terminations or if they do go through with those terminations that reprieve would be temporary while we make our wishes known and you mentioned a club that is being kind of dangled about we have a club to is this our club. Your weather communicate with me you should I have them on the table yes no exactly and and it and it didn't look I I don't know how how good this is of the club. Usually the smaller guys a hard time believing the big guy right both but it is the tool that we have it is the thing we have to be able to go out of state what like in Arkansas the good policy is that you know you don't ask and if you do ask you can't hurt them because they don't tell you that they have a right the right to to have that privacy if a federal comes down and it's in conflict with it let's hope it never goes into effect and let's hope that it Vaught this vested right that is an individual maybe one of the tools that a person could use in bringing the lawsuit to say you know you are you're taking away a vested right that we have at you know that isn't going to be what wins or lose it but it's one other thing that we can add to the quiver. Senate Miller you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman of. Bob you know I think you're brilliant I I feel smarter. As set in this close to you. Your attention to this matter to go and I want to get into a little deeper. Let's say we pass this. Okay and if it's in effect let's fast forward to ninety days or whatever it's in full of fact and we have but we still don't have any federal. You know crap coming down that were rebelling against but we have businesses who are. Following through with their vaccine policies. What in this bill. Are there any punishments for businesses really going to be are we are we finding them to anything is all of a civil would be a civil action between the employees or former employees or whatever that's right it be a civil action that they would bring so it's not it's not government there's no government finds mandates no no audits anything like that it's the individual citizen will would have to utilizing let's see the the paragraph is. on page two line nine employee into the Employer individual who's injured by an employer in violation of this section saw the remedies and procedures available in the Arkansas Civil Rights Act of nineteen ninety three and so is this code section so the same areas and those discriminations that it sets out the purpose the the civil action and so the same selection I have a follow up Mr yes you may go in thank you Are we. I make like you said may go this seems like it's another arrow in the quiver to protect which you know I think a lot of this want to protect our our constituents from wrongful termination in this area do you not anticipate there being civil action taken place anyway. Market is there is there already like with these your term hundreds of folks that you know of I've already been terminated are they not is there any any civil action that's been taken in the aisle or whatever that you know of already at there has been civil action that has been brought that is already been filed dealing with the on the federal level there is civil action that is threatened in the state of Arkansas The problem is there's just not really I mean I I wouldn't want to diminish their their ability to to bring a lawsuit but the reality is under Arkansas law there's really nothing that that gives them a tool we are employment will stay which which you know this doesn't change that but what it does change is it gives a civil rights the a person has to that the gives them the ability to file that action so sorry if so the answer is yes I think that there are lawsuits but even the individuals are bringing those lawsuits are not real confident that there's really much could be. Thank you thank you Mr president Boyd you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr cherished Senator Ballenger you mentioned power of the purse earlier and I just wanted to try to understand this a little bit better that is a valid point so and and you're the Attorney and your day job and the pharmacist so you probably know a little bit more about it so my understanding is is when it say highway funding that's it a low enough level where the federal government can hold the you know the the state accountable to Hey you got to do this because it's not enough for that the state would suffer severe consequences versus say the Medicaid expansion where it is so much money would crush potentially are our state budget so where this is different though is that's the state government and this it would potentially be a private business if if the I have mercy hospital or Baptist health and. They would potentially lose funding because they were trying to abide by state law how did how to power of the purse figure in and that that scenario. And I honestly that is a that's a good question and one that I don't think we have a real clear answer to so can they instead of like the Medicaid expansion where they can force the state to to carry out its its agenda and under the those the bill is right and then they said that they they couldn't do that with Medicaid expansion when it comes to private businesses I'm not part of that is the Medicaid actually poses state so those Medicaid dollars would be at that Supreme Court the bomb care decision that decision would be actually binding precedent dealing with the Medicaid side of it I think you know is depend on the numbers but the Medicare from what I understand flows directly from the feds to the individual. It causes something that is not real clear in the case law I think the principal would still apply even though we're not about state actors we're talking about individual businesses that can you force them expressly when what they're trying to do is overcome the state law right can you force force passed the state law I am using the power of the purse and I don't know that we know the answer to that I'm going to hope with our court and with the appropriate District Court and that will be in a position where where it would be set aside but but like I said while I feel real strongly that the those who roll will be I think probably the CMS role will be you don't have nearly as clear precedent that it will be the like like you do with those real so but I'm definitely willing to give it a try I'm definitely not I'm not willing to cave before we even get a final rule that. A representative will let me put you at the bottom of the list we've got other people that haven't spoken representative Payton you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman Senator Ballinger appreciate you bringing this bill up I hear a lot of conversation and to do about what the federal government may or may not do. And I hear a lot of conversation about some businesses in Arkansas. Not all by a long shot no have already made a decision to require vaccine of their employees. And so the ninety day delay in the implementation of this law. Might seem too late for those employees. But many other businesses who are on the cusp of making this decision. For considering making this decision for being strong armed by those businesses who have already made the decision and does this bill give them cover to say we're not going to go that far because the Arkansas legislature that represents the people instead of Washington DC has. Passed a bill and and so now whatever a business that I'm doing business with tries to force me is a business to require this of my employees I have a tool yeah to say I'm not going to I think that's a great point so in the same sense the people are worried about the rules coming down that have not been released yet as like we better we better get in compliance with that even passing this without the emergency clause because we know it's going it's going to affect the beginning of next year gives a reason for businesses to say no I'm not going down that path because the law in Arkansas is going to require us to do acts and so I think that's it I think it's great point thank you thank you Mr. President Pilkington did you have a question I did chairman you're recognized thank you chairman Ladyman So. What I'm really curious about is we have passed this bill Senator hammers and Josh Bryant earlier where we're basically giving alternatives instead of going to vaccine you get tested or view and immunity things like that. I mean doesn't this is completely wiped away that bill that we pass it we pass this bill no it's it's two separate code sections now if we pass this bill does does the other bill become as a necessary as long as this is held up in court and this B. remains valid then then the other one in theory will be necessary because the person signed up asking about that's a nation status that the question is if if it is possible that the CMS rule it is possible that the federal rule may come down and it won't be too much in conflict with with it so what what you see is on the federal level and and it's it happens differently in different departments but on the federal level they have a an older testing requirement in lieu of their offering that now as an alternative if the OSHA rule comes down and they offer a testing requirements the question will be it will the testing the punitive or will the testing be something that's more flexible like in center hammers bill so they'll be good value to that even if even if ultimately the OSHA rule comes down it's a pale which hope it's not cross my fingers don't think it's going to but if it's upheld then this would be in direct conflict with the with the OSHA rule and this permanency clause because the rule would have force and effect of law then then those purposes calls would say that now let me say this I think an appropriate reading of this from this clause would not would not render this an apple but that's not the way the courts interpret this permittee clause so this would essentially be unenforceable but represent hammers bill representative Bryant's bills and hammers Bills could still be in effect follow up. Yes you're recognized so on Senator hammers bill there was a sunset clause that we added but I notice on this bill there is no sunset clause I mean that give me a little bit heartburn because I think what we noticed. Click with the mask band that we did was there's no sunset clause and if we ever had a different sort of airborne illness and we wanted to do something like that where our hands are tied without us having to call and have a special session and that's the reason why we put in a sense a clause on Senator hammers bill so can you walk me through the decision not to put a sunset clause on this piece of legislation sure but I would say that the there there's not of the sunset clause if we married it with the hammers bill that would be unnecessarily and any for special session because we will be in general session again so that their sense that was July two thousand twenty three if I were to put a sunset clause that would be sometime after the next general session but what I would say is you know two things there's not a sunset clause in it because when we drafted it we didn't see that as a necessity while typically I'm I would be up to good amendments in order get people's votes where we're at I would be shocked by some of my friends if we start of mending bills and start sending back and forth so this point there's not what I what I've said to you earlier and I'll say right now is that if we're at a point where either this is causing some headaches and problems needs to be modified or need to be repealed altogether when we get back into the general session you know I'm game to to play on that we will know by the time we get there and that's the same way the center hammers bills we want to keep that those protections in place then we'll have to actually deal with it during that to that if the if you and I are here and two thousand twenty three when we get back in general session. Thank you Senator. Representable you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair for your tolerance of my questions I do appreciate it senator I do have another this is a legitimate service question but not the rest were legitimate the I think all of my questions that I wanted to call. Because like everybody else I mean this is this a fact this the this bill has significant impact sur way we do business in Arkansas of sexually healthcare business right especially into the healthcare business in case you might not know that I don't know why but okay so is an employer if I wanted to offer an incentive to give the vaccine if I wanted to offer two hundred two hundred dollar bonus is there anything in here that would prohibit me for doing that or what the employees still have the ability if I want to say Hey if you're willing to tell me or with this this basically even throw out incentives could you help me explain what the practical implication of that is so from a practical implication it may be it may cause incentives it may make it hard because if the incentives to feel like it's part of part of work and not purely just some additional bonus then it person could argue that there be retaliated against because they didn't provide the vaccination status and it doesn't go it does it isn't just a person who is not vaccinated has a right to to withhold it if a person's vaccinated they have a right to withhold the vaccination status either way so it would make it where where an incentive program could get to the point where I mean be honest if I revising a person at that probably don't put together is in a program based on the vaccination. Look for different way to do it but don't do it based on the vaccination one of the things that I think it's really important that we do talk about is it sometimes we talk about vaccinations like it was six months ago back when vaccinations were ninety five percent effective to keep you from getting the virus right what we all thought that we all thought when it first came out Matt's eight I thought that most people thought is going to keep you from getting the virus I mean everybody agrees that I think the Fizer study just came up that said that after two months you will lose a lot of the benefit to keep from getting the virus and to keep from causing other people to get the by right use to contract right now you're a lot less likely to go the hospital a lot less likely to get seriously sick a lot less likely to die amount some people may dispute that but but I think just from the evidence it looks like it they probably have some therapeutic benefits but but it isn't it isn't the thing that keeps people from getting spreading the virus that that may have been true under the house of variant or how for the virus but in the Delta variant that's not the case and so where we're at today. It isn't really you know I we step fifteen days stop the spread and then when you're had vaccinate stop the spread. It really is actually to keep you from going hospital that's good because that's great but it but I honestly as businesses what's their incentive a minute I mean I honestly is a guy that has a little bit occurs you're probably better off you know creating incentives for diet programs for people's individual personal health you know great program so they don't eat cheese burgers and drink soda pop right now there's there's other reasons to try to address a person's individual health that are also extremely important so anyway I I kind of went down a rabbit hole that is to get your question it probably makes that we're offering an incentive program and I'm not you know this is not Mr Meyer the law but I do see where there be questions about whether it should be done even if you can't. Representative gray you're recognized for a question. Yeah thank you Mr chair back to hospitals again so I've had a hospital text and they actually do have to report code status to CMS already effective October first and inpatient quality reporting that vaccination says you mean yes code well but what I say use it because that is not what I believe that sensation status along with their flu vaccination status so they're going to have to ask is that by rule yes so I would have to see I'd have to see the rule on that and and once again if it is a federal rule as a force and effect of law then it would either be interpreted consistent with the law or because interpreted inconsistent with the law and it would have supremacy over what we pass so at this point I'm not not seeing any specific rule that requires vaccination status okay follow up yes you're recognized thank you with that interpretation would that come out in a lawsuit that was filed between an employee who claim discrimination or how would that help how would that get interpreted I guess so either way so even if someone if someone challenged the law itself if someone had had challenged in that just you know honestly I like it I have been asked multiple times and all the bills to carve out health care. When when we talk about the employees and trying to provide the protection. There is nobody that pulls at my heartstrings more than that nurses to work in the COVID unit for a year and a half right and and so if we're not going to offer that nurses been working the code unit you're happy let me say this amongst the most educated people you know you know what sector is the most likely to not want to get the vaccine it's healthcare I know it and so you know the the reality is the support stupid they've thought about it they've weighed the costs benefits and they said. I think it's better for me to get the vaccine. And they have been gains they've in the front row there are heroes we all agree there are heroes Canham don't fire now find some way to do it and don't fire and that in there may be a better way to to to manage this and do it I wrestled with that I've tried to find it in the end it's just given a right to protect their own privacy that's the way to keep them from getting fired and so you know during the special session someone have a better idea I'm all in let's do it we'll put it on the call and we'll get after it but otherwise I don't leave here without providing this. Representative Pilkington you're recognized. Thank you chairman Ladyman Senator Ballinger. Once again I'm going back to Senator Hammer is a bill that we passed earlier so one of the issues I brought up during discussion was my worry was because we didn't have the emergency clause that we would force businesses to feel like they had a ninety day window to an act mandates on their employees so that when January came around and there was federal law on this when a place that they could already have basically in place they're not in conflict with federal law and then they don't have to be in conflict with state law because they are to get it before the law is in effect my concern with this one as well as because we do not have an emergency clause on it that it will become the same situation that in trying to protect the employees we're gonna end up having a lot of companies feel that their hands are tied so they're gonna have to mandate and say well you know the legislator did this and we're in this fight between federal state policy so we're going to have to go and do this so that we're not going to find ourselves in a lot of litigation you know it's unfortunate of toward reforming and state but You know that's that's that's a concern I have you can't talk about that and walk me through it. You're right this bill is better with the emergency clause I wish I could be presenting it with emergency clause I'm not the if the answer is there could be some some businesses in particular with with the Senator Hammer is bill that we worked on closely it's great bill but that person fire the people before you ever get the law goes into effect in order to make sure that you don't have to worry about that problem this would make that a little difficult because if you fire person based on the vaccination status you also can't just discriminate against person and hiring so if you fire someone you better not post that jobber similar job because if you do that person comes back you higher on if you don't have to be subject to lawsuits so it makes a little more awkward to just can't on if we have this this some place because they have an absolute right that's absolute there's no absolute rights but they have a right to privacy they give them the ability to decide disclose or not and they don't they have the ability to file lawsuits. Follow up. Yes you're recognized so. That sounds all well and good but here's my concern is if we terminate an employee and we have failure to follow policy. The one that but that's on that employs record so they come back and they pull up that employs record an inmate to say nothing about COVID it just as failure to follow policy I mean you could I think a company could easily say well I you know we didn't know we just set the reason they were terminate earlier was failure fall policy we didn't know whether that was dress code or come in on time or or COVID vaccination says and that's going to be away they're going to get around this so that the question in also would be what is that policy and that policy is still to come nineteen vaccination you've discriminate against them so I'm I'm telling you what they will need to do is I need to find for some other reason all together they better make sure that just just like if you if you want to fire someone because of their religion because they're Christian so you don't like Christians you better find some other reason a firearm besides for the fact that Christians and you better make sure it is it is written up clearly and the it and and your your books because if it's not you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit right so I mean it ultimately if they got fired the special with this coming on and they got fired based on the vaccination status may come back and they'll fly for a job you better completely disregard that you better disregard the the policy that they violated because that policy is now under the law discriminatory and and can't be violated so that would be that would be like from a from like if I were counseling an employer that's what I would tell the. Thanks for the clarification center presented Payton you're recognized. Thank you Mr Senator Ballinger. This seems like sometimes we get stuck on one side of an issue. We're talking about businesses that are firing people for not being vaccinated. In the absence of this law. Is a business under go home of fire body that is vaccinated. Now the question is why would a business want to do that. So if your business with a lot of employees and a new hire comes on at the bottom of the pay scale. And then as they work five ten fifteen years there's raises it take effect and that pay scale changes. So. It's economically. Beneficial. For a business like a model like that. To find a reason. To fire tenured employees. So. In the absence your bill is it your understanding that current state law would allow me or any employer to fire their employees because they got vaccinated when all they were doing was trying to protect their self and their family yeah that at outside of a there's nothing in the law that that would prohibit that and so you would be in the same situation as the people are being fired because they're not vaccinated and it's not a very good place to to try to enforce your rights. Go follow up. Short follow up. Quick short follow up please. Okay never mind I'm not go follow thank you yes all right members. members we have sixteen people signed up to speak for against this bill we're we have a another building here so try to keep your questions. Precise answers please but can I just address like for the folks who want to see this bill passed let me just say like the less less test money for it probably more likely going to pass the bill is honestly now there's a lot of people came they have the ability to to address their their government everybody has the right to come but the reality is this is an issue that is has been like everybody knows basically where they where they stand on it so I don't want to I don't want to dissuade anybody from coming and doing what is their absolute constitutional right but at same time you know the the truth is I value your time and if the people who come and testify will do the same a big. Representive clown you're recognized for a question. German Ladyman I'll defer to your requesting withdrawal my question thank you. Senate quite you have not asked the question so I'd recognize you if you want to ask what a thank you chairman it it it it will take a long time I don't believe. Senator just like your opinion your legal opinion if you would Page two line twelve the department of finance and administration may establish and not quite to my question yet but I think that that also means that it may not the staff which and so here's where I'm going with my question we've been given a handout the Legislative impact statement. And it says the consultant has advised that the state may not be able to use our funds so I'm wondering could that also say that they may use Arkansans thank you yes so so I I think that that that is probably a fight they're going to have to have if we're going to set this up the ideas that if there are people who are not made whole through the ability for whatever reason because of bankruptcy or whatever there may be a program set up through the state with restitution using these funds well saying if that's possible but honestly you know we we included that in there make sure that it's it within the resolution and also that it could provide a tool that can provide some help yes on the other hand they couldn't get it through the through the employee employer so that's I mean the answer is yes like it could who knows the account of the consultant didn't say absolutely not and if it is that'll be a great use the funds in my mind thank you. Representative Miller you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair of. Senator what. Do you know of of any businesses or anything that's happened in the state before this. Two years that have made employee mandates of concerning you know flu shots or any other type of Vaccine or preventative bill and and. And the other part of that is do you know of any action that's ever been taken by the state to that effect to deal with any of that. So the answer is is yes there's some healthcare providers it's mandated the flu vaccine typically that provide a really broad exemptions even the Department health is mandated the the flu vaccine and I and and you know the to the extent that state action I know about is one employee who had religious exemptions that was requested it was kind of being retaliated against by the Department health work for the department of health and it got that got that fixed but the but we're not like a different world where things are so much more broad and they aren't granting the exemptions applying form they're just not getting on it out I don't mind I'll be completely honest like I let it be known with the Tyson and Walmart and actually mercy that if they would broadly grant broadly the exemptions that so that people weren't getting fired like I wouldn't necessarily see the need to bring the legislative legislation if people weren't going to fight now as before the federal mandate was coming down and so the problem's going to a lot bigger but the reality is they have no interest in that you know they they I mean. I have a friend who works for one of the big employers who was in HR and he was told by home office to tell every employee that they would grant their religious exemption accommodation was one year on paid leave which nobody with it what a great that's reasonable accommodation no court would interpret that that's being fired and that's what they're yeah well it was basically it an additional slap in the face and saying yeah yeah we'll yeah yeah your religion center to ensure what company to go home or not paying. And that's I mean from my standpoint we're just in a different place than than with the flu vaccine because it's heading our people harder. Thank you thank you Mr. I see no more questions we do have nine people signed up to speak against the bill seven to speak for the bill. And the those of you that have signed up I will say you need to keep your comments short and to the point if possible otherwise we may have to limit the discussion because we're just going to simply run out of time so. With that. To speak against the bill Mike Preston. Committee chairperson and jim Hudson if you all would introduce yourself and who you represent for the record. Mike Preston secretary of commerce jim Dotson department commerce you're recognized. and appreciate the time old we'll try to be quick obviously as the person is charged with recruiting businesses and industry to the state placing undue burden on businesses making it harder operate doesn't help us become more business friendly if I'm another state I'm probably watching this and and going to use it against us and some of these competitive projects not to say the least about the existing businesses that we're dealing with Dan and day out and our committee government contractors that we do have here in our state most of whom are small businesses. But more specifically. Problems with the bill is that it's more broad than preventing a vaccine mandate by employers employers may have a legitimate need to know the backs nation status during a COVID outbreak in order to address public health Matt measures such as a quarantine this takes that away it does open the conflict with existing federal requirements some of which are already published for Arkansas companies to hold federal contracts many of whom are small businesses and had no plans to mandated vaccine they are now being forced to by the federal government this bill would force them out of compliance with the executive order and lose the federal contract is essentially is going to put out small businesses out of businesses I certainly don't want to see that happen and Mister Hudson wanted to speak to somebody existing rules are in place yes very quick the canister chairman just elaborate on the federal contract provision and I do think there's a misconception out there that all the federal stuff is coming down the pike many weeks or months from now we have to recognize that as relates to the federal contracting provision that is already effective. Two weeks ago the GSA published guidance on that and so if you're a federal contractor covered by that you have to be taking measures right now to ensure that your work force is fully vaccinated but no later than December eighteenth twenty twenty one. Yeah that's not a rule the federal government is a party to a contract and as any contracting party can do they can say here's what we're gonna require you to do is a contracting party. And so if you're maybe got a concession with the with the corps of engineers on one of our Great Lakes the corps of engineers are going to require you to have in your contract with them Hey vaccination requirements or you lose your concession. If you you know running a kind maybe a custodial business you know cleaning a up one of the the spas and hot springs on federal land you're gonna be subject is vaccination requirements and if you don't comply with that contract because you'll lose that contract that's not a in terms of penalty of a rule that says you got to do something is the federal government saying if you're going to do business with us we're gonna require you to do that I'm not advocating for that I don't think it's necessarily good idea but it is the reality as it exists today so all the discussion about ship coming in a few weeks is true but the federal contract requirement is true today very quickly in terms of of questions represented Pilkington master there was and is a great question this body and the Senate work very hard I think on H. B. nineteen seventy seven center hammers bills well I see this bill hopelessly incompatible with that bill because H. B. nineteen seventy seven assumes that you can have a discussion about one's vaccination status that an employer can require a vaccine in the employee you can say I'm opting out of the vaccine and I'm gonna go through a testing regimen instead. This particular bill says I cannot force or disclosure so the whole protocol that exists an H. B. nineteen seventy seven no longer works. So in terms of the sponsor statement earlier if you know if there's a better idea he's open to it I think I've already found and you already passed it you already have it. With that I will take any questions you may have represented Wardlaw you're recognized for a question. Mistrust in new chief legal attorney over there and oversee workforce so. I'm and a healthcare business is well known miss been published on the front page newspaper what I do But in that business we're going to be required by executive order by taking Medicare Medicaid money to have every employee be vaccinated we don't see the Lansing rules from it but we do know there's a consecutive order. CMS already asked that they disclose their vaccination status so we have to do those things to get paid period. And what are we going to do if this bill passes and were found liable under this bill so we pay two years back pay three hundred thousand dollars whatever that judge or jury finds is guilty of being liable. How are we on liable by following the federal rules which are. What we have to follow. represent Wardlaw I think at the other day folks are going to have to follow what the federal guidance is is that the consequences of not doing that are too severe for a business or for nonprofit member hospitals or nonprofits you know I think in between you know that the the mobile this bill gets passed on all that gets sorted out there are a lot of lawyers and tall buildings in Little Rock you're getting ready to make their Christmas list right now because they're the ones are going to go figure this stuff out. Follow Mr yes you're recognized so I for one totally disagree with the president's executive orders hundred percent I think it's an individual choice and should be. But I'm not in Congress okay. A state legislature yes so. Fixing those lawyers Christmas list is not what I'm here to do and and I heard the sponsor said down there while I go and say that we want to protect our employees. Do you see this is an employee protection do you see this is a lawyer get a job. I see it in I think I'm sympathetic to to all of our stories that we've heard but I don't think that ultimately we're gonna be able to avoid this very hard situation for folks and I think it's it's conveying a false sense of hope that the situation is going to be dramatically different I do think in H. B. nineteen seventy seven you all worked hard to create a mechanism where those two points of view can co exist. Thank you. Representative Pilkington you're recognized. Thank you a chair Ladyman Secretary president you make comments that businesses be less likely to come here to Arkansas because of this bill I've. Find out a little offensive because during session we heard that constantly that that would happen if we passed conservative legislation and yet the tax foundation so that were in the top ten states to move to if you have any evidence to back out back up that outlandish claim or is that just your personal opinion it's but I haven't heard of a single employer say they're not gonna come the state of Arkansas because of this has a single employer so they're not coming to the state of Arkansas because I'd say that in the bill was just filed so I don't think a lot from out of state have had an opportunity to look at it I will say in our conversations in the last week to a week and a half with businesses and with consultants it's a concern because it's something that just paints Arkansas in a negative light in our ability to support businesses so it has been a concern. Representative Gonzalez you're recognized. Thank you Mr the two you'll sit down at the same spot there to go smoke yes house bill nineteen seventy seven and I did it has your opinion on the bill changed you know I think that's a good bill because seem like you're speaking for it just a minute ago. What sector we are we were speaking and I'm getting the maybe the bills confused but I think it was senator Johnson's bill excuse me just a minute books the audience don't talk to any of the representatives at the table or in session please proceed. Specifically Mr Hudson I think you mentioned that it was. That have been worked on and it was like a good fit are forgetting your exact words with the same like you spoke in favor of that house bill nineteen seventy seven of of this one. Yeah I that I think in my previous comments you know I have to express the concerns by nineteen seventy seven that we had and I think I've acknowledgment in this committee that I appreciate so much represent Bryant's hard work to reach out and dialogue about the concerns and they were incorporated in the bill my main concern with the the bill the other day was the Emergency Clause and and the desire to get some more time for employees to be able to implement this and and I think that issue is is not been addressed. All right see no more questions from committee thank you for your comments thank you Committee speaking for the bill Sir Dunklin you would go to the in the table. Please introduce yourself and who you represent for the record. Sarah Dunklin first congressional district chair Republican Party and I do realize this is not a partisan issue. I did want to just to update you all as far as where we stand on this issue the thirty counties of the first congressional district along with other county such as drew and Washington counties and I know that this will be going through the third district as well this weekend and it is been submitted to the state party is expected to pass their it's a resolution supporting full health care freedom into the main points DO are perfectly in alignment with this bill. of course this to our and I discrimination for not being vaccinated and also You know it's a don't ask don't tell support for that so just in case shall wondered where where the where people are the what's the feeling is out there it's definitely in support of both of the bills being heard today. Any questions. Thank you for your comments. Gates speak against the bill man Gilmore. Please introduce yourself and who you represent. Thank you know what what health. Thank you you're recognized thank you Mr chairman I don't want to be labor some of the points already made in this in this committee this week section and I appreciate y'all's time and your attention we got a couple concerns the infection control process the hospitals healthcare entities that keep in place this could run afoul with that with health care and some of the rules will be coming down as with as discussed in here and then also again I think that you know healthcare entities businesses need the need the freedom to do what they think is necessary to protect their employees their patients customers and business so I don't anymore your time in the office I have a long day and I appreciate your attention to my comments. Any questions from committee. C. nine thank you for your comments thank you. Speaking for the bill. The jacket Martin probably didn't pronounce that right but Jackie Martin okay please go the in the table. And introduce yourself and who you represent for the record. Thank you Mr chairman my name is Jackie Martin I'm sorry but my hillbilly mother got real fancy with the spelling of my name. I am the state director for a convention of states in Arkansas and I know many of you support our effort. Our main for us as an organization is self governance because that was what are found our country was founded on I have said here the last hour and listen to a lot of questions a lot of testimony and Mister Ballinger instead of a wonderful job in presenting the bill. My main concern is. The commerce and corporations. Their rights and their purpose an existing is superseding the rights of the individual that's what I'm concerned with this happened one time in history it's called corporatism happens to be a feature of fascism it is the method in which miscellany took over Italy in the nineteen twenties I see the same thing happening here is a major concern that I have it is not constitutional for president by Biden to issue a mandate mandating corporations push the vaccine. But he's using that method because he knows it's unconstitutional and we need to make sure that it stops at the state line there's a reason why our founding fathers created federalism is because they fought the tyrannical keen and they didn't want to have to do it again. But we are at that because and we're looking to you our state legislators. To stop the snowballing from the federal government to the state that's what we elect you we have a tenth amendment to protect our rights as citizens of the State of Arkansas that is my main concern we have a lot of education that we have to do and working with people and how our government is supposed to function but the main governance has to start with us the individual and you're taking that right away from us if you allow corporations and commerce to mark departments in attorneys to supersede our rights. So I'll have to say. Any questions from committee. Seeing none thank you for your comments thank you. Okay to speak against the bill Clark one. Please introduce yourself and the represent. Thank Mr in more quiet part of you and services as a school more don't want to belabor a point that we were talking before I just wanna make clear when I talked with you earlier about some the other bills we talk about the things we don't know they were waiting for rule from CMS and we don't know the details and so for example with numbers of Bryant's bill it may conflict it may not we just don't know for certain yeah with this bill it will conflict there's just there's no question about that and so this bill does put at risk Arkansas ability continue to operate the seven cities where we care for a thousand Arkansans and employ more than three thousand Arkansans we also know for certain that the mandate will apply to hospitals nursing homes home health agencies we think it's likely would also apply to other agencies that provide in home care so your area agencies on aging your personal care agencies all of those are to be subject to CMS mandate and under this bill they're going to face a choice of do I comply with federal law and risk incurring literally millions of dollars of damages in court cost as a result of this bill or dock by the state law and risk my Medicaid Medicare funding so just wanna make sure that we understand that we have to answer questions. Any questions from committee. Seeing none thank you for your comments. They speak for the bill Melissa Melissa Bonch. Please introduce yourself and who you represent. my name's Melissa Bosch I'm from cabinet and I'm representing I am trained as a I have a masters in public administration with a minor in human resource management and I worked on a military base with an and a half and I had all the laws and they have not changed since I've worked and I had a list of things that I could ask my employees now mind you I wasn't in charge of a hospital because I do believe that there are certain differences when you're actively seeing patients and that's not what I'm talking I'm talking about all these other businesses that don't understand why they would have to fall is the maybe they're afraid of being you know charged with fees or whatever for not doing this mandate but the only time now hit the applies like I know that Mister Ballinger said you know there's certain things that aren't but as a human resource manager I could've been sued if I said. Did you ever have TB or on you know that's really transmittable and we're around customers and eighty fees did you have to be because it as you all know to be as much more transmittable right now and covid if you go look at the number so. They should still apply under this which is really concerning to me so when we talk about medical privacy I think we need to go back to the beginning and realize we cannot ask these questions anyway you can't force someone to say did you get your flu shot you can ask that in private business that you just can't unless of course you are working for a medical facility and they have to address that themselves and so I'm speaking for this privacy kind of upset that we even have to talk about it because I'm medical privacy is private and only time an employer can actually get it is if I have a disability that can affect my safety in the job it never talks about the safety of others in these laws so if I have a disability that let's say I have You know maybe a weaker arm or any what is it called when you fall asleep on the job I would have to disclose that because if I operate machinery I would pass out while operating a forklift and that could affect me in and harm me and so I think if we look at this this is only solidifying that people have that right to privacy and I wish it had the emergency clause because I think people need to feel safe that they're not gonna be fired but really. I don't know how deep you guys have gone and research but we just can't ask these questions like I know all these private businesses if they ask if they've got the COVID vaccine I'm sure they could be sued basis on their medical privacy the only time that I've ever heard is in the military they're literally emailing each other that Hey this person has been vaccinated in this person has and even military members are like do not put my name out there because nobody else has the right to my medical privacy only my commander does and so we are allowing them to bully us into giving our medical privacy when it is against the law according to help us and then if you are sick or have a disability that Merican disability act so that's all I have to say about that hopefully that gives you a little bit better understanding from someone's point of view that's actually you know know that you can be sued for asking the wrong questions thanks. Thank you for your comments. Speaking against the bill might more. Iran is a key please introduce yourself and who you represent. my more Arkansas. And he's a friend he's a Arkansas state chamber of commerce lashandra thank you Mr chairman a Mike Moore I'm an attorney with the Friday of Clark law firm in here with the state chamber today you're recognized Percy. I thank you all for your time and I'll listen to Senator Ballenger any said this this is a very simple act and and and I want to disagree with that because I listen to all the questions you all asked them about about be acted it proved that it's not simple at all. There's been one discussion about what. Conflicts there might be with federal law down the road if if the Biden administration issues the executive orders and the rules that they have said they intend to issue the problem is is that the law would put all. Private employers in violation of the act that you all already passed as soon as its effect. Your past activate by fifty nine which gives immunity to employers during the pandemic. And that says if they are in good faith following the CDC guidelines that's what the statute says that you all passed the CDC guidelines require private employers to ask bass connections that. To decide whether somebody needs to be quarantine to decide who needs to wear a mask those are the questions that question has to be answered before they can follow those guidelines and so if they can't follow those guidelines they are automatically outside the protection of the immunity that you all granted all these private employers during the pandemic. This law of I heard Senator Ballinger talk about somebody being fired for not getting vaccinated and being able to come in after this law is passed and say that they've been discriminated against in violation of this law by not being re hired. I can't remember who asked the question but the question was if I have a policy that says I do not re hire people who have been terminated for a rule violation or insubordination or however I put it and I don't really higher because of that this law doesn't help them to the extent that anybody wants to make your believe this law is going to help them get their job back it doesn't. What it does is put employers in violation of the law. And I think about if I had that a severely immuno compromised mother at my house that was that I was cared for and I wanted to hire a care giver I can't ask that care giver if they've been vaccinated. If I actually if I ask them and they say I'm not going to tell you and I don't hire them they can sue me under the Arkansas Civil Rights Act and get up to three hundred thousand dollars in punitive damages that. The bigger problem for my clients that I see is that I have a lot of clients who have immunocompromised employees that they want to allow to work. Those employees say ACT my doctor says I need to be in a situation that is more sterile I need to be in a situation where I don't have a bunch of unvaccinated people around me because is Senator Ballinger said Baxter native people don't spread the virus as much as on vaccinated people and so the doctor says I need some I need that employee in a more protective place. Outside of unvaccinated people this law prohibits my client from being able to accommodate that disabled employee. And makes them subject to sent by either one. With respect to the the the rules that are coming down Senator Ballinger says that the that'll all get worked out well I agree it'll all get worked out one way or another but all of that time when it's not worked out we know how long those things today. Every employer in this state of Arkansas is at risk either being fined by the federal government for losing their contract with the federal government will pay an hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars to employees. It absolutely this law makes nineteen seventy seven I'm not going to express opinions on that it makes that bill useless. Nothing can be done with that bill if this passes thank you. thank you Mr chairman thank you members of the committee it's been a long day it's been a long couple weeks I know you're. You're beating this horse several times from several different angles but in our opinion in it let me let me say something plainly. My job is to represent the members of our organization and those members comprise. The bulk of the non farm payroll employment in Arkansas. About twelve hundred companies and organizations. One way or another we touch just about every employee through Employment relationships there are members just about everybody in the state. This is the most damaging bill that has come forward yet in this whole conversation. But I want to emphasize to you again that I'm not speak for or against vaccine mandates that's not the point that we're trying to make our point is that decision should be left up to employers there's been discussion of employment will we are shredding make no mistake we are shredding employment will in Arkansas if you pass this bill through the. And and it becomes law that will indeed this merger reputation as a place that's friendly and encouraging and accommodating for business and investment and growth and employment. Education training all the things that allow people to become more valuable for their employee employer. The the point that it that's been made that that somehow. Employers are going to try to run people off because they can hire people cheaper is an insult to to good legitimate businesses. That are screaming right now because they can't are enough people the last thing these companies want to do is be compelled or forced or had have no option but to dismiss somebody they'll do anything they can to to hold on to good employees. Because everyone is looking to hire more employees every company nearly that I've talked to in Arkansas cannot find enough talent to hire horrible willing and able people to do the work they have to do so this will only compound that problem the challenges and the difficulties you're putting before employers are nearly impossible with with the conflicts that Mike is outlined and and the the liability around the Civil Rights Act and the cost associated with that so we urge you again once again. The speak up for vote for your employers and the good jobs they represent in your district and vote against this bill happy take any. We do have a few representative Payton your first only. I was trying to get the chair's recognition of representative Miller. Senate bill you're recognized thank you Mr president of. Mr Moore Mr Moore sorry I'm looking at Mr introduced himself as Bobby off. So what's your. Of we hear from you is quite a bit speaking on behalf of the businesses I know we have several business owners center to stable how many if you would be so kind to time out I think you testament go on what you say you have roughly twelve hundred twelve hundred how many of those twelve hundred have you heard from. Concerning this bill this bill or this package of bills not no we're not to a package of bills because we've already differentiated in here today I this is different from the other one and so forth so I on the on this bill that you're speaking on how many of the twelve hundred have you heard from I've heard on behalf of the members problem from a. Second hand through manta sociais Asian heads from probably a third of those maybe four hundred five hundred something like that. I mean is that like I could say I heard second hand from the president today because I've thirty one day of may not actually these folks have come to do call the chamber said please go to inner lobby against this yes four hundred of the twelve on behalf of about four hundred yes of the largest primary or for primary members. And former executive committee and former executive committee primer okay thank you thank you Mr. Representative mental you're recognized. Okay. All right seeing no further questions sorry representative Pilkington. The chairman Ladyman This is a how many of your members currently have vaccination requirements I know Walmart Tyson mercy how many other ones a very it's a very small number but again it's not the vaccine mandate or not the vaccine mandates the right of the employer to make that decision some of them are coming up on it as somebody mentioned one of the earlier test witnesses. This is This is at hand for federal contractors let me amplify that little bit federal contractors are not just. Maintenance services or or. Express services delivering to contractors or the the contractors in particular this is all of the the defense complex and in Camden for instance all those companies are anybody that serves them. Is directly impacted by that deal with the requirements. Those those are those are big deals every paper company paper mill has contracts with the federal government those will they will be mandated by the federal government as a holder of a contract to comply. Every small machine shop every small machine shop that lives on the the specialty orders is it risk because of this if they choose not to comply. So this is a broad sweeping. Mandate from the federal government already in hand in place if if a poultry company. Furnishes. Process check in to our turkeys to any. federal agency they're gonna be required to comply every contracted with the federal with or through the federal government is going to be. At risk here. This this is this is you will hear you will hear over the next couple of weeks if this passes how how broad this impact will be and it will be it will be serious. Follow up yes you're recognized so thank you Michael thanks for that explanation I was very helpful Tino centers about those you know so last Friday against Tyson let go of employees that weren't vaccinated yet they had a ninety two percent vaccination rate way over what we consider herd immunity why would one of your members be so punitive to their employees right now we have a labor shortage in Arkansas you it can you kind of address why they decided to do that was it yes they want to show off because I mean thank you president vaccination right it's fantastic does them I think you're insulting the really capable management of Tyson foods I have no idea why they did it and I don't want to tell them how to do it or not do it that's their business at least it has been up until now. I don't mean to insult them I've got I've got well they've insulted my constituents who they let go I mean I'm sorry but when I've got people in my district who are text me call me saying that I've lost my job don't do that sorry if I caused a little offense and then when I got people who are worried that they're not gonna be able to make the next mortgage payment so sorry to the people of Tyson for standing up for my constituents I think what the people are caught that Tyson or doing is trying to protect the health and welfare of the ninety two percent exactly get the vaccination and and you have somebody and you have somebody who's got an underlying illness who doesn't need to be working around unvaccinated people and being put further at risk. President Payton you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I know we're supposed we keep in our discussion on this bill but we've talked a lot about what. Laws or regulations the federal government may or may not be handing down and federal contracts. I'm I'm looking at a list here of. More than twenty states that have pending legislation along the same lines but let's just real quickly are you are you what does Florida have a federal contracts and any military bases because Florida has passed a bill passed a bill that prevents employers from demanding proof of vaccines status so with all of that commerce and all of those military contracts coming out of Florida do you think they would have a chance at some of that. Could be. there's two states have already passed it I haven't counted but there's more than twenty on this list of folks were worried about what the federal government may do while you start considering what the other states are doing and the federal government would do well to to notice that also would you agree. I suppose thank you thank you Mr. President Gonzalez you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr a five man I guess I again I'm getting off the bill but I think it was stated to them to the table that the unvaccinated should get vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and if the vaccine works are those people not already protected. Obviously we found out that with the delta variant some people are more at risk than they were to the alpha very. However as Senator Ballinger said unvaccinated people spread the disease more than vaccinated people. I don't have it heard and heard or say that at all and he's of their second said that he never said that I have for that come out of his mouth not just in this conversation and agreed that it was stated vaccines the work of them let's just move on representative Bentley did you have a question. I did chairman thank you Mr is it can you tell me when this state chamber plans on filing a lawsuit against the by the administration were telling these businesses what they must do with this vaccine mandate because it's going to be on president peril on these businesses in Arkansas when you plan of filing a lawsuit against the buttons station on the social rules we will be filing a lawsuit against the federal government. So you're fine with the federal government what to do but no one for you through organizations we belong to and work with we're protesting and lobbying against it and likely those organizations were filed the suits we would not be the filing party that. They will be given time when they might do that are they ready to go soon thank you. Seeing no further questions thank you for your comments thank you. The. This D. Ellis. Please introduce yourself and who you're who you represent. Thank you for allowing me to speak and on a side note thank you for pronouncing my name right most nobody ever gets it on the first try you're welcome I'm. I thank you for being here how will also say I don't want to be here anymore and I know you don't either I'm a try to be as brief as I possibly can I am sure that you can tell by the quaver in my voice and the red that is probably showing up on my face that this is a very serious issue for me. My family my husband is one of those people that Tyson thought would have a good accommodation to put him on unpaid leave and is presently not earning a paycheck for my family. We are directly affected so for anyone in here who hasn't heard directly from someone who is I will tell you that we are. and it is not good. I have heard many times. As I have listened to others testified before this group and before the Senate committee as well that we must protect the rights of businesses to protect their property and their contracts as they see fit. By telling me that my employer or my husband that his employer has the right to inject us with whatever they see fit to allow us to work and earn a wage. Means that we become property. It means that slavery in its essence is alive and well in this state and I'm very proud to live in Arkansas we are very conservative we're very friendly to business I have listened to a number of people tell me recently that they moved here specifically for that reason. So I am asking you. Please. Help us stand up we have heard the word club thrown out a few times I heard Senator Ballinger mit mentioned the up the little guy pushing up against the big by the big guy if you've ever been on a playground or in a back alley somewhere I hope you have not the best way to stand up to to put an end to the actions of a bully is to push back is to stand up and right now we can all acknowledge that our federal government is trying so hard from so many directions to bully us and all of us are here because we represent people at home who couldn't be here today to remind us all that the power resides with the people. We the people if we stand up with these other states why don't we leave the country we in Arkansas we protect our people I want to push back on those that say it's going to hurt their businesses for the last eighteen months Tyson has had all kinds of protocol set in place that my husband has abided by every single day and those were enough. To keep everyone safe to allow him to work as an extension worker to provide for our family until August. When all of a sudden enough was no longer enough and he is willing to continue doing those things but was told will accommodate you by sending you home with no paycheck no recourse we cannot sue because he is not terminated if you terminates himself we can't suit he has no benefits. He has nothing. At all. So I am here because I am far louder and far more passionate than he is and he is allow me to sit in his place to speak to you people today on his behalf. These companies that are asking us to allow them to continue to treat us like property made huge profits last year please do not tell anyone in this room that they will be adversely affected by standing up for a god given right that is medical privacy that we are trying to protect. I also would like please to address the sunset clause that was brought up earlier and this will be my last point if I had been sitting beside Senator Ballenger I might have asked him to say we don't put sunset clauses on our civil rights there is no sunset clause at the bottom of the bill of rights ladies and gentleman and there ought not be one on this either. Which that question gladly representative more you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair I appreciate it. Thank you for being here today I I do appreciate your your testimony yes but I I just I feel like I need to clarify something sure you made a comment about forcing you to inject something in your body so but my understanding of this bill is we're just talking about you don't have to acknowledge COVID nineteen status so is it your testimony though that we should never have to disclose flew. That nice and any other thing that might be an occupational hazard or. I want to clarify his or is this just the tip of the iceberg or is this just you just said that in we really meant we should be forced to have to cope with facts personally I believe it's nobody's business what ever medical procedures be they and vaccinations medications or surgeries I have ever had or anyone else I have had many jobs I have never been asked did you get your tetanus did you get your teeth out did you get your MMR have you had chickenpox we're not allowed to ask those questions. TB HIV a whole list of things are far more virulent and far more transmissible than this is and we've we've been looking at it for two years I'm not a doctor but I have been listening to doctors who have repeat these things if we can't ask that question then why in the world are we trying to ask about coronavirus. Hi to me this already is protected but I feel like this bill it's just going to step one step further and say we meant what we said. When our medical privacy is private. Does that help. And I hope I wasn't shouting I'm sorry see no further questions thank you for your comments thank you. Blair Allen to speak for for the against the bill. You would please introduce yourself and who you represent. Thank you of that on I can't hear but thank you my name is Blair Allen I'm of the on the executive committee of the Arkansas hospitality association and as an occupation of a restaurant hotel operator interestingly going listening this today and and I apologize I'm a novice at this so it's my first time to come and do this but listening this I heard a lot of the discussion about mandates and people getting fired and I didn't read the proposed law that that's what it was addressing I I come at a different angle I'm not looking to fire anybody in those of you are familiar with what hotels and restaurants have been through in the last eighteen months I wouldn't fight anybody for any of these reasons right now and if Mr Ballinger knows of a hundred people who'd been fired I'd like a list of their names because I need to so I'm not here want to fire anybody for anything what I'm here to do is is address the other thing the Senator Ballinger discussed and that is protecting people and when I have employees who serve your food and make your bed I'm concerned about you as a citizen making sure that you're protected and that's where I come from this angle I don't wanna ask somebody's vaccination status to fire them I want to ask their vaccination status to know how long that they would need to be quarantined in the event that they become six I don't put them back in your hotel room in your shower in your bed and on your pillow and washing your lettuce. Before that I know that there well so it is a all right about protecting citizens and that's what I worry about is as a business operator I'm not here to try to get anybody fired or do anything like that I want to be able to determine their vaccination status to determine the length of the quarantine it's a life safety issue for me And and a lot of examples here today have been given of of companies that are so big that this not as relatable to those of us who are just out there making beds and and in your food I sympathize with those who've been fired and I don't pretend to be for that what I'm really trying to do is is balance the protection of my employees versus my customers and between the different laws of impasse it's almost become impossible to understand which laws to follow and which one's going to find me more opened me up to lawsuits more And so that's why I'm against just adding this is more layers that make it more confusing for us in order for us to protect all of. The talks. The questions from committee. resent paying you're recognized thank you Mr. So have you done anything to protect our customers from influenza. From influenza yes well what I yes what I would say is that I don't have any of my employees going to your rooms or into the kitchen if the if I know or they know that they have influence we don't we don't allow people to work seq. So. Wouldn't that be sufficient with COVID nineteen if you tested to see if they were sick. Yes but I if the recall the COVID nineteen rules require quarantining and so then it I'd have to know how long and how long you quarantine someone is based upon whether or not to vaccinate. I understand that. And I wouldn't want them up fixing your food with flu either so. I don't mandate of flu vaccine either I'm not I mean this is not this is not a issue of man of mandating a vaccine. If I and so I think the point being there are other measures by which you can protect your customers other than vaccine status and my of my understanding is that you'll passed something else or something else is in the process of being able to test in the place of vaccination so I would find that sufficient okay thank you thank you Mr I see no further questions thank you for your comments. Okay to speak for the bill Blake Thompson Brock Thompson sorry. Please introduce yourself and who you represent. Brock Thompson I represent myself I am a small business owner I'll make this short I'm in charge of about fourteen people and I'll tell you this. My people are my business it It everybody becomes a business when I when I everything got started you become an employee so without my employees there is no business so what we did at our particular businesses we will I choice we don't talk about it because you know as we've looked over the last you know ten months there's been this evolution of understanding of the vaccination as well as contamination as well as you know other things that are still being discussed so so for us we're in a wait and see and we allow people to have choice but we don't talk about it I think it's important for those promises that we always had for the last you know twenty some odd years or. Further than that to to continue to have people's individual freedom and medical freedom and in the privacy to to do what they need to do as Mr Allen said you know we're looking for people to work and to make the reason you don't have a thousand other small business people running fourteen to twenty people is because they're doing those ships they're doing that work because they don't have enough people so you know in terms of Tyson or any others if they want to let some other people go you know a small business work we're happy to we're happy to take him on so with that I'll leave it Dr I mean Mr Ballenger's did a great job of explaining all my points so thank you. Present day was to get a question you're recognized. Bush but so my question to you is. You're the employer for your company correct. With or without this bill. We Senator now without this bill. We may walk out here with this bill so with or without this bill the do you anticipate you'll walk out here and. Ask your employees. Have you been vaccinated is that a. A regular occurrence do you think in your mind I will start doing that or. The answer is no I think you know as my grandfather taught me there's a lot of things are sacred and one of the things you don't talk about is you don't talk about people's medical situations if they're not able to do the job then that's one thing but if they can perform the job and follow the requirements that you ask for that allows them to do the job then I say bring them on not nothing's ever change that nor will I move forward that's why in my business of allowed choice do I have some people that have gotten vaccinated just through conversation because it seems to be if you get vaccinated you tell everybody about it when that's never been happened before but these last eighteen months we've never seen anything like this happen before so I will continue to run my business I don't ask those questions in interviews I don't ask a lot of other questions in interviews and that one will be will not be as low. Say no further questions thank you for your comments thank. Allen McVeigh if you would come up to speak against the bill. Please introduce yourself and who you represent. Thank you Mr chairman element by a representative department of finance administration and our opposition to the bill was is with regard to the reference to the American rescue plan act and whether or not the the rescue plan dollars that state is received could be used for our compensation and we hired of to this for the legislature we hired a consulting firm C. T. H. and Haggerty to review both the cares Act in there the American rescue plant based on the review of Arkansas but we can't find any language within the American rescue plan act that would allow us to use those funds for for the compensation reimbursement that's been identified so for the based on that that would be our opposition to the bill. Any questions from committee. Seeing none thank you for your comments thank you Mr. When beach you would go to the in the table. Okay okay. Jody and Trent you would go in the table to speak against the bill. Please introduce yourself and the represent. Good afternoon I'm Jody internet the executive vice president of the Arkansas hospital association I want to speak to you a little bit about that penalties that will be assessed upon hospitals if this law does go into effect since two thousand and three there's been a hospital inpatient quality reporting program in place that's been mandated by section five oh one B. of the Medicare prescription drug improvement and modernization act it allowed for penalties to be assessed on hospitals for not entering appropriate data about health care situation health care quality improvement infection rates all those kinds of things that happen inside a hospital we are mandated as of October first of this year to enter data on COVID vaccine status for the number of employees who are vaccinated and the number who are not at least once a week once a month or so weekly on a monthly basis so in October will pick a we can do it that week in November will pick a we can do it that week and then we have to report that to what's called the national healthcare safety network or NHS again database so if we. If this law goes into effect and we are not allowed to ask our employees if they're vaccinated from COVID and by the way we already have to ask them if they're vaccinated from the flu and many other things are also included in that in the reporting that we've had to do since two thousand and three then we'll be assessed penalties of much more than ten million dollars. I'll be happy to answer any questions. Representative board you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair I'll be quick we've heard lots of testimony about how if we do this we the state of Arkansas the legislative branch passes a law it's going to conflict with the federal government and they're going to hold a bullet our head and withhold money. I just find it hard to believe this is the first time in Arkansas history that this legislature has ever passed a law that said one thing that created a conflict where then we couldn't get funding so could you I mean is it really the the first time and is this really going to happen or is this we're just fighting because it is going to make more challenging me and please enlighten me on this. I can't tell you the number of times that state law conflicts with federal law I think to representive Wardlaw point earlier that absolutely is a question for a lot of litigators who like that discord between state law federal law federal rags at cetera I do know in the hospital world when state law does conflict with the federal regulation hospitals we do the balance of which cost us more right so in this particular case we have to ask our employees are you vaccinated from the flu are you vaccinated from covid we don't have to report the individuals to NHS and but we do still have to ask our employees so that we have a numerator and denominator to satisfy that requirement so I don't know exactly what to tell you to answer your questions about state law and federal law not always acting in accordance with one another other than the courts make those decisions all the time. Yes you're recognized. Some of this just in that scenario I mean with this law if it were in effect today prevent you from doing some kind of anonymous survey or some other way to collect that data besides I'm going to you know Dr cloud individually and asking because a lot of there are a lot of employees at hospitals I find it hard to believe that the we go ask every single one individually thank you we do ask everyone individually and yes we would be audited by Medicare and Medicaid through the CMS audit process and sometimes also by the Arkansas department of health and if we have been incorrect in our reporting mechanisms we get in big time trouble we have Medicaid recovery audit auditor contracts and other contracts that come in and they not only take the money that it cost us sometimes it's three four five times as much in a penalty. President Wardlaw you're recognized for a question. So thank you Mr earlier I asked of. Jim Hudson the attorney for work force and that whole division over there is not just workforce but I ask him the question would we be liable in the healthcare industry for this. Are you in your testimony earlier basically say we would how does that work when a state laws going to prohibit you from doing what. Your employer the federal government says you have to do is there a lawsuit then driven to the state law to to overturn it or where we at with that where would be. Okay refresher question where I can understand are you asking the process for if I ask if you're my employee and I work at a hospital and I say representative for no I'm asking you if I'm Bradley County hospital okay and Oct comply with the federal law not state law and then these penalties come out do I have to pay these penalties because I applied to the supreme law or we're where that leaves me as Bradley County hospital it definitely it definitely leaves you in a position to where you have to ask the federal government for permission to follow the state law and if they say no you state you should still follow the federal law then absolutely you get put in court to determine which law controls the United States constitution article six section two is this a permittee clause in most of the time it says if federal and state law or in direct conflict the federal law within government thank you. Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair just trying to process what you just said. So. In relation to your previous testimony you had said that this is going to cost and can you remind me what the number you said it was ten million dollars over today yes somewhere between between ten and twelve million dollars so since two thousand and three there have been other things and acted that also determine the amount of penalties hospitals have to pay for not complying with the appropriate reporting and the hospital inpatient quality reporting program the thing that changed okay for for the COVID vaccine to be included in that is the CMS inpatient prospective payment system rule has been enacted effective October first of this year and it added another thing that we have to report to that reporting program and now the new thing added is whether an employee is vaccinated with COVID or not or actually the number of employees who are vaccinated against COVID and those who are not so so the penalties between ten and twelve million in hospitals across the state yes it's it you're saying it's it's a statewide number yes Sir and so I I I I guess I'm just curious and you may not know the answer this weather A. R. P. funds would be eligible for That type of an expenditure or that type of. Reimbursement for those types of things I don't know the answer to that I will tell you this there is that quite a complex formula that goes into Medicare reimbursement for hospitals to take care of folks who are obviously Medicare eligible over age sixty five this particular formula is based off of a market basket that's a term of art and you all don't want to hear all the details about it but it's basically a tiny percentage of a Medicare payments that hospitals get held back if you will or penalized for not complying with federal law as well you all know the number one state to get hospitals to do what we're supposed to do is withhold Medicare and Medicaid money from us. And and just for my memory and recollection can you. Can you tell me how much I know we recently released some are put funds to all hospitals in the to the tune of close to a quarter of a billion dollars do you remember about how much that one hundred and twenty nine million dollars from our funds hundred twenty nine million so maybe I'm confusing that with both hospitals and something else like nursing homes probably so yes okay so hundred twenty nine million thank you. President Bill Clinton you're recognized. Represent there is. Thank you chair alignment Judy and would not be a stronger bill in your opinion if we just added an amendment to exempt healthcare facilities absolutely okay. Can I inject some right here I that's a really good question because I've been sitting here listening. And some you all know I used to be a health and safety person for many many years large factories and I had nurses that work for me the nurses could ask people medical questions and it was very frustrating to me when I would go to do an investigation and it might be serious it could be a pathology and I go investigate this accident the nurse could not tell me certain things because I was not a medical professional because I didn't have a certificate as just a plain old engineer and but that nurse could ask anything. But I couldn't so. You know I think the medical community to the representative buildings point here it's to set we're all apples and oranges here we're talking about businesses non medical businesses I don't think they can ask this question right now under the HIPAA law that's my interpretation I'm not a lawyer but I don't think you can ask that and pass it on to non medical people but in the medical field I understand why you have to ask that question because you're treating sick people and you don't want to catch other diseases so to me I don't think he has a question now but that's just my comment we're we had on a representative Payton. You're recognized for a question. A representative Gonzalez you're recognized. I thank Mr Mistretta so I understand that you are passed back to nation status on flow certain things meet you some sense of what happens if someone refuses to answer that what they tell you know that they haven't been vaccinated or if they don't get vaccinated or other options for them to continue working at the hospital And are you more scared of the. This or would it be worse if you had like a huge shortage of nurses because they all walked out because they didn't want to get vaccinated what's what's the worst case here. All gosh well the worst case obviously is CMS not paying us for taking care of Medicare and Medicaid patients anymore so we're always going to do our very best to make sure patients are as safe as possible but we also have to comply with all of those Medicare and Medicaid conditions of participation guidelines rules regulations and all those other things many of which were put in as protection for patient safety that hospital inpatient quality data reporting requirements at the beginning at the outset was to make sure all hospitals were doing the right things to make sure patients once they got in the hospital we're safe and protected so definitely the worst thing would be if we no longer could take care of Medicare Medicaid patients because our safety was not up to par and and not up to code and regulation okay so on the flu vaccine specifically if someone has a credit or they refused to get it or they cannot get if for some reason it is there some safety protocols they can follow to continue working in the hospital absolutely and one of the things that puts us in direct conflict with that COVID vaccination that makes it substantially different from the flu vaccine as we don't know what the feds will allow is reasonable accommodations that's act absolutely the crux of what we're waiting on from both OSHA standards because hospitals are employers from that perspective obviously and also from the Medicare conditions of participation from what employees may or may not. Be allowed to have is a reasonable accommodations. Can I have one more okay go into had already kind of set the. So what if someone refuses to answer the survey if they refused to say if they them like Senator not what happens at that point that's a great question and I imagine that a hospital employee policies are different based on what they have is reasonable accommodation spread out from there my guess is that would be a violation of the employer employee contract because employees know that they're going to be asked those kinds of questions and and they're definitely told and given an opportunity to consent and or comply. Representative Bentley you're recognized thank you chairman thank you a mystery for being here of. As we look across the nation we see hospitals that are shutting down really hurting when they're enforce vaccine mandates especially New York I'm very concerned about Arkansas so we are we currently facing any staffing shortages and can we see it worse if we enforce these vaccine mandates that are coming down we definitely have staffing shortages of the hundred twenty nine million dollars that representative Dotson alluded to was specifically so that we could retain and recruit more staff to take care of COVID patients in non COVID patients in the hospital so absolutely we are concerned about staff especially at the front lines and and at the bedside I will say to a point that was raised earlier today if a healthcare worker is vaccinated and has come in contact with a COVID positive person that health care worker can still with no symptoms can still work without having to quarantine within a hospital which has been very helpful for us and likely one of the reasons that some hospitals jumped the gun and got out in front of them at least telling their employees that eventually there would be a mandate of some kind to get the code vaccination because they did the math within their own hospital to determine how many folks could stay at work if they were vaccinated. This one fast follow up yes you're recognized. It was before facing severe shortages and we've given you money to overcome it so so why we've been a fire nurses and healthcare workers at this point what why we do that but because I'm just I have a neighbor that reserve fund to cancer and the horror stories I heard because of the lack of care. Which referred me as a nurse I hear but they're really short staffed now they're hurting them before the season goes effects of so why we're gonna fire more mourners to my knowledge at the hospital mandates are in place yet they haven't taken place yet they've been set that you know a date certain down the road you have until acts date to be vaccinated I but I will fully and freely admit I have not read every single policy and I know many hospitals in fact in Arkansas are waiting to see what the federal mandates are gonna look like before implementing those policies. I see no more questions think group sorry representative Boyd you're recognized thank you Mr chair I'll be very quick so operationally speaking so I'm a seven hospitals somewhere provide covert vaccine and in order to do that you would have to do an informed consent in one of the questions on there would obviously be have you had COVID vaccine before so where does employee relationship stop in patient relationship begin and that scenario or you just if you're employee you're never gonna be able ask questions could you help me with that sure but not all hospital healthcare workers get their vaccinations from the hospital and many of them getting from your pharmacies and from other places so we would ask the question are you vaccinated or not and if you're not we would ask the question if they wanted to be if in fact we had vaccine and wanted to make that available until the mandate comes down we'll have plenty of places that don't require the COVID vaccine and and tell the mandate comes down and and makes us conform. Seeing no further questions thank you for your comments. A Dustin Curtis the can't read that last name. Keter nesting here please go in the table. Please introduce yourself and the represent. My name is Dustin cuter actually just represent myself I've been a nurse in Arkansas yes it's a graduate in two thousand three I've experienced it like this before Riffat flew We have managed. These types of viruses before. We've never Basically told people that you either get the vaccination read the your job. It's never have before. as a health care provider I can understand. People wanted to know if I've had a vaccine something like. Small pox or something that was very lethal but as far as COVID. The vaccine doesn't keep me from spreading it. Does it keep me from getting it. I find it very hard for me that. You know these business owners so concerned with my safety that's not their concern. It's my concerns. The vaccines been available for what a year. If you want it go get it. If you're that concerned about the virus go get it. But it doesn't prevent you from getting. Is the prevention spreading. So there's no reason for me. To take it already had killed. I've recovered. My immunity. Is infinitely stronger and more durable. Then what the vaccine does we. It will not enhance it anyway my immunity. The benefit. It's just not there and that goes for almost every one of these healthcare providers that don't want. They have already had it. No I don't mind if my employer asked me if I've had it I support this bill because there other Kansans. That are not taking care of patients. There's no reason for them to be asked. I understand for me. But I'm standing up for their attendance. I don't think I should have taken the vaccine at all as far as being able to spread it. I've not seen any studies that show that people that are have convalescent unity or any more or less likely to spread it but as far as these folks being worried about my safety send your concern I'm a grown man. I take care of myself. I lived for forty five years without you intervening in my life okay August second seventeen seventy six men just like use that is able just like this and the signed a document they gave us this freedom. Okay. And they basically signed away their own freedoms understanding what it would cost. How do not do that today. What is going to cost you to sign this document nothing. Nothing. Some second. Any questions any questions from committee. Seeing none thank you for your comments. J. Cheshire. Please go the in the table introduce yourself and who you represent. Mr chairman and members of the committee thanks so much object Cheshire The Little Rock regional chamber of commerce I actually and and thank you for your service because I can't even imagine what you guys and gals go through so first of all thank you I thank I'm here to talk about the business issues if somebody wants to do that but I want to bring to your attention another issue that I think you ought to think about because in twenty nineteen the General Assembly. I had a house bill seventeen eighty six which is now ACT six seventy six and that that act requires public and private schools to report certain information regarding the number and percentage of students who have exemptions from or have not provided proof of required vaccinations so that something that that the General Assembly then. Actually enacted and for those of you that have had or do have kids in public school when that information is is actually input its input into what's called try and T. R. I. a and D. and if you are a public school student in a public school you're required to capture that information but you heard in that act that there were there were exemptions and so if you go to the department of health and you you look at what what can it can apparent do if they choose not to have that information what can they do and how they do it. And in that question and answer on the Arkansas department of health web pages as Arkansas law requires all students attending Arkansas schools in licensed child care facilities to be vaccinated against certain diseases. And alas excuse me I should not forget the and unless unofficial exemption form is filed so we've talked about exemptions today it goes on further to talk about an application requesting an exemption must be submitted for each child and free childcare or school the student attends an application with a notarized signature of the parent or guardian must be submitted each school year to the Department of Health outdated or alternate forms are not allowed so we we talk about the process if you're a child in a public school system and your parents that their parent does not want that information released that's how you go about it but here's the key to what's happening today with this bill and the business community. If a child is exposed to a vaccine preventable disease for which an exemption is chosen the child should expect to be excluded from child care or school for twenty one days or longer asked determined by the Arkansas department of health this is for the protection of the exempted child in the protection of others it talks about a physician statement and all so we have in our public schools right now this. Former body in twenty nineteen approved a way to handle this from a public school standpoint and I think what you've heard today is everyone has their rights everyone has their choices but in the case of someone that is in fact it or someone who isn't vaccinated against a preventable disease for that business to be able to keep. The rest of the employees as safe as possible it's just a matter of public health that that business have the same opportunity that your school superintendent that your principal has with every child in their building. So we can talk about. Baxeen not vaccines we can talk about choices not choices it's just a matter of information for public health a business environment is part of the public health a healthy business is made up of healthy people and that's how we operate from a school perspective it's how we also operate from a business perspective so would ask your consideration not to be approved this bill because you're taking away the business owner or managers opportunity to do the same thing that you've given to your school superintendent be happy to answer any questions. Any questions from committee representative Gonzalez you're recognized thing Mr do you know how long those vaccines have been around and then study before the legislature got involved Sir I am not a medical professional ordered estate holding express last night okay thank you and I appreciate you bringing that to our attention because that's something that we may need to address on the future and include school children to this as well possibly. Any other questions from committee. Seeing none thank you Frank servants. All right we have no one else signed up to speak for against the bill. Senator are you ready to close for your bill. You're recognized closed. Yes I'll keep this short because that's not enough time it It in short I think that this this process we've seen it kind of all all the way through it you know what what you see on and testimony you see the people who do well in Little Rock a lot of lot of March my friends who come in and speak against the bill have you see the people who are like our people the people in our district regular folks who are coming in to speak for this bill. And there's a legitimate reason for that. Me by passing this we're empowering the little guy and the very nature of empowering the little guy is it weakens the hands of the bigger guy at I wish we weren't in the situation which we didn't have to deal with this at all. But the fact is we have no choice a lot of those businesses that are were well represented here have chosen to move forward with this they've chosen to follow the by administrations direction rather than than pushing back on it and it's kind of our job to do that I want to want to make sure it is specifically addressed so this bill got filed when we first came down here but the same bill same language has been filed and on the books since August fifth so for a little over two months it's been out there first time I've heard about this this a rule requiring the disclosure was was just now what I think we can probably do to make this comply with that is it actually represent Boyd you hit it on the head if the reporting is required the number of employees benefit and and I think this gets to something that's a little bit confusing and I continued by Tesla there's nothing in this bill that that prohibits the disclosure you're allowed to disclosure vaccine status or even asking for your vaccine status you just can't require it and you can't retaliate against the person. If they if they will disclose it's just protecting that their privacy right so if it's a matter of if they can provide it anonymously then you could take that anonymously and then you can prove you're not retaliating against them at all because the fact that you're taking that information and providing it now I don't know if that's going to work exactly within that rule. And and I honestly I'm not will say I'm not worried about it because I am obviously I don't cause any more problems for hospitals at all. But one reason why it doesn't scare me right now is as much as I'd love for emergency clause there's not one. We have until January to make sure we work it out we all know that in a couple weeks we're going to be coming back down here my guess is now this bill passes we'll probably have a lot of people who are really interested to make sure that this bill works a lot more insure them the last two months when asked so I don't know if you all are going to pass it but if it does my guess is we will have some way to try to to come in and make sure it doesn't doesn't hurt too much but but honestly I'm not for trying to comply with federal rules altogether the agent's office so that they can defend this and so they'll step up and the federal law against a federal and I hope we win if it's an overreaching federal if it's something we can work inside this that's great if the sum that violate the rights of our constituents it makes a where were inconsistent with with the then. It's a little bit and let's get. My son just tease me every time I get excited my squeal you know the kind of embarrassing. So now I notice that every time. So the point is. That. At. I don't want to make life part of my my hospital. But I also am not going to exempt those healthcare workers in Boston for a year and a half now I'm not gonna do it this was quick. I'm just not going to do it I like going to come in and say you know what will protect you big business what we are employees of big business plan this is not about big business clearly but will protect you employee of big business will protect you other every other employees but sorry you know you nurses been working in the COVID unit for eighteen months and because you've done some research and you don't feel like it's right for you we're going to exempt you out of it and you can get fired. Not just we can't do that we got to provide this protection for everybody let's make it work within them but you know what. Joanne's great she's she's always solid and let's sit down and we'll see if we can make it work if we have to change the code to make it work guess what will come out a couple weeks and we do it I don't think that's the case I'm going to whatever we can to to to protect them and and we'll try to make it work but yeah this is the tool that we have right now sitting before us to appreciate a good vote. What's will of committee president Gonzalez you're recognized. I have a motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Representative Bentley you're recognized. Just real briefly I want to say that this is not the end was coming down this administration this is just the beginning and we've got to start to push back and this is where it starts the state legislature so with that I would just encourage do pass thank you. Any further discussion representative Pilkington maybe someone else in the committee can help Enlighten me on this but so what I'm thinking though if we had a healthcare exception of this bill is brought down or is voted out of date is brought back with an amendment to a healthcare exemption because obviously the voters of this bill can make sure that we they do not adjourn in the Senate we do that that we've already got Josh brown's bill in place so even if they don't wanna get the vaccine you know they still have this other alternative about testing and if they've had it you know immunity that way so I'm curious if we if we can wait until that exemption gets put in we actually get a stronger bill you know I know we feel like we're up against this deadline the deadline is the deadline we said I mean we choose when we go home right now and so I'd rather take the time and be. Precise with what we send out of here and so hopefully someone can maybe tell me I'm wrong in that assumption maybe things I mean right but I just I want to put that out to the committee to. To think about. President Bill Clinton I mean that's good point you're you're talking about and as I said earlier I believe businesses. You know already have this right I mean I think it's already in place. And I said that medical communities. They can they can do this. Because they need to because they're good they have patience and you don't want to you know have a sick person and give them another disease and I understand that but in this case I believe the medical profession needs this bill may be passed for them because it's an unusual I make confusion talking in circles here but I think businesses. Already can do what this bill does ask for I think medical people need to have this my opinion representative Payton. Thank you Mr and members I'm in no way advocating for amendment of this proposal but. It has no emergency clause. We pass it today the clock starts ticking on the ninety days. There's plenty of opportunity it within those ninety days. To come back and pass an amendment modify change repeal this line before it becomes effective. But we need the clock ticking we need to get this passed now and start the clock ticking. And then if you want to propose an exemption to it we can do that I'm sure knowing who the opposition to this bill has been. That the powers within their hands. To bring us back in here to address that if the if they wish to thank you. President when you're recognized I just want to do pretty much second what representative Payton said this gives us an opportunity to negotiate from a position of strength we have something on the clock people are wanting to come together now to discuss and this also with all of the doomsday scenarios that have been presented to this point. What will likely happen if we pass something that goes against guidelines that may come down that we expect will come down but that we do not have yet. It will go and it will be discussed in the courts and there will be injunctions and there will be stays and those will be discussed but we will have the opportunity to place our position in the discussion. And our position will be of strength and also in the mean time for people whose employment is threatened it gives them some hope that there is a clock that is taking on ninety days. And that that is a good thing it also gives credence to the state's position when our Attorney General eventually challenges this. The discussion. President Pilkington recs they talk about this clock ticking no but my concern is that like I brought up earlier was that now these businesses know that ninety days to implement a vaccine mandate before this law goes into effect so we're actually telling business that if you want to be in compliance with the potential federal law you better go do it now because in ninety days the jigs up in you're going to have to you you can't do it anymore are are you're going to be fine by the state so if anything I wear this method of mass we may see a mass Vaccine mandates from some of our our big employers so I mean. Are we are we setting off two bombs at once I guess is what I'm saying. President Miller you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman five I was was I. I don't like this. I don't like being in this position. I mean obviously this sucks. And for those of you all. You businesses. The few of you because there's not many. I'm tired Mr is a earlier say it heard from if he was correct. All the businesses that he heard from in the state chamber he heard from a third of all. So that's sixty. Six sixty seven percent. Of other businesses. In the state chamber. The card from. That didn't care enough to contact the state chamber. So with that being said with that being the case. I'm a business owner represent paid the bills so we got several business owners always committee I don't want the government tell me what to do. What questions I can ask what questions I can ask we got a bill for that already. But. At the end of the day the twenty of us on this committee. It matter what we do. In our regular life. We answer to thirty thousand people. In our districts. And in my district. I've got folks who are facing. And someone we already have lost their jobs and those are facing that. Coming up. And while R. as a conservative. I wrestle with this for days I've had a long conversation with represent our. Bob. Senator Ballinger. Of. About this very thing I hate. Being a part of government interfering in businesses I don't like it. But. I wish our businesses. What. Do what they're doing. No way to treat people and this is the one thing I guess I don't know it represent wing had or many go we're. We're not be the deciding factor here the same to me how the court. But. We've got to do what we're doing here for there to be something to decide in court I don't like it but I'll be support. President Bentley you're recognized. Thank you chairman response representative Pilkington I want to say that I'm sure you're districts like mine people baking from ploys there are hard to come by everywhere I go I see a hiring sign and massive sign on bonuses I don't think we have a massive exodus of people firing folks when they can't can't replacements are gonna fire so that was where I was thank you. Any other discussion. Seeing none motion on the floor is do pass all in favor signify by saying aye. Those opposed nay. Yeah as habit resolution center your bill. Okay roll call call the roll. You representative Wardlaw. Representive Eubanks. Representive McGee. Representative Dotson. Yes. Representative Miller. This Payton. The representative Bentley. Representive great. Representative Gonzalez. Representative Boyd. Retentive Allen. Representative Coleman. Representative Pilkington. The representative ****. Representative Penzo yes. Representive Perry. Representive Perry. Representative Davis. No. Representive cloud. Vice chair Ferguson. Vice chair Ferguson. Share. Yes. Congradulations Senator your bill is passed thank you Mr thank you come up committee of the next bill on the agenda the the sponsor is divide the aye aye asked to skip over that so seeing no further business we are adjourn.