Education- Senate and House

Artid Senator Irvin is probably on her way so we'll we'll get started and get the same going. Glad to see everybody this morning. Call this meeting to order. And any thing on anybody's mind before we get started. Great day yesterday let's continue along with some good reports today. And we're gonna start with the I don't see adequacy report study. The history for history so. Your show thank you and before Elizabeth starts on that I did want to say we handed out this sheet yesterday we didn't do a good job of keeping up with things on the white board as Yeltsin dissidents other things you wanted us to look into that I will do a better job of that Adrian's going to come down and B. R. van a white M.. But so on this report we've tried to put where we think each question will be able to address that and you'll actually hear as a dressing some of your request today during it was this is report and then when I moved into the starting Slape report so I just wanted to clarify that and then senator Beckham I did have one clarification for my answer for you yesterday does he actually has a terrific. Web page dashboard showing the expenditures of all that covid really fence aye aye Sir funds so that's a great place to go look and really see detailed spending at school district level where it will you'll see it in our reports is when it really impacts those items that are in the matrix federal funding is usually as you all know us supplement and not supplant so it's really a bad thing beyond adequacy so we're we're not focusing we want to focus on it holistically that whenever it touches adequacy spending will pull that entire reports so I just wanted to make that clarification from yesterday Julie I believe this is a whole lot easier just right on these give out to people that where they actually see it you know it's but what more great but it's a lot easier just keep your notes and give it to the next day so I'm sorry I said this a whole lot easier to me to see it on this piece of paper that it is only about a white Ford okay so we'll just keep track of it without that's great about doing that okay. And and and not meet one other thing about that though I did forget that we didn't mention statement yesterday I bet Taylor reminded me part of the adequacy statute is the report is to include draft legislation so the end this is not to decide pending levels that she can go on and be working on some draft legislation that you can approved at the end of the process to include with the report and that way you'll have that in your back pocket when the session starts in February and we're not rushing or trying to remember what all needed to be included so just remember she's back there and ready to go so okay and I would turn it over to let's. Okay can you hear me or do I need to get make this issue me. In that matter. Okay I think I wanna Hey good morning I'm all is that fine with a bureau we're excited to be back today and I'm gonna talk about the history and adequacy. Ministered in NC date with pictures and my first picture is gonna help me talk about my purpose and explain why we decided to make this a separate report And then our next Friday I'll go into a road map of everything and you know talk about today. But let me tell you about my picture this is you might gas is the first day of school picture this is me and my sister Katie I never read shared I'm the big sister. And in this picture we are 9 and 7 and we are going into you are first days of fourth and second grade. We hear 11 spring dal little find facts for you I graduated from spring to high school with representative Godfrey. I have been in this picture this picture was taken and I guess and 1993. So why is that important way way what it was as you if any well as you lease because yesterday that 1 of the reasons that we wanted to separate that out is he has we've reached a point where they're decades of history so what we're talking about here and then he's my picture helps me illustrate that as you remember that Taylor told me yesterday that the first like you case was filed in Pulaski County chancery court in 1994 this page share about a year after that in 1993 and by the time the finally he has ended as Taylor's cardio in 2007 I have been graduated from Hendrix college for a year and I was a plane to go to graduate school and my sister was a rising senior at Hendrix and that's just to help me illustrate this is a very long process and there's a lot of history and we know that it gets overwhelming and confusing for us when we were presented at the beginning of each record and that's 1 reason the age has into you to pull it out. At is and you tell you that we went through a lot of documents in the red flaky he says and we read special masters reports and all kinds of things articles written at that time as we were reading through all of these forms I realize that there are patterns that I could see me legs at all of these materials that I didn't see when we were looking just at the individual history as fiscal distress or declining enrollment funding and sales tax more about those and I read and I thought and we thought it was important to give you a holistic picture as we're trying to do throughout this process. And the reason is maybe the most important. At jazz into GS yet we're really this is the story and we won it's how this like a story and history is the beginning history is the story of how we get to where we are today Chiles heights yesterday about the difference between at what is which is our role and what I Sippie which is your role and and then history tells us how we gets you a current white it is how do we get to where we are today. So what are we gonna talk about today and this presentation today instruction at see if your bride overview and so we're gonna lead at their responses and 2 cases into our consultants or ports I because I think we see after the after we get a lake you decision or we have consultants can we get and we get closer issue what Senator even talked about yesterday and transformative change and we see the changes that occur all at once. So we're going to start with some quotes and you see those question marks that's that's not a mistake that's intentional and you'll see why. At we're gonna talk about the general assembly's responses it's year 1983 he is called to pre races Allen. We're gonna talk about at responses to lake here in 1995. We're gonna talk again about Lakeview responses to lake view in 2003 and we'll spend some time here because this is where we get our foundation funding system and army checks. We'll talk about responses to leave you in 2006. And hand out we'll get to you and others changes at past 2016 2007 and sat you as as we tell yes you've got a copy of your high point in your mind or if you want a phone line and then the history has a written report as well and so as I said today isn't overview I'm I'm not gonna get into that nitty gritty specifics I can this issue to make sure that and I we don't want to be I know because I want to be here all day line listening to history at but your history report is in your binder and it's got all of the nitty gritty specifics and at winter meetings over you'll get that in your email from Michelle and so that you can refer back to that and we told yesterday easement will let you know what's coming next month and so you can pull out that history and look at that and look at the topics that are coming at the history is gonna follow at the it's a little bit different format and it's going to take you through the report is any take you through all of your major explains all of the categorical is and it's going to be in the same format at that you're finding and spending reports will be at next. At the other note on make is that I'm not getting into the nitty gritty specifics of any of our preference I mean talk about things like English language learner finding or isolated finding and we're gonna have a lot more information at each of these programs going forward at but this report is really about the history and so that's where the focus is going to be. Okay so historical deficiencies so we mention that we started reading a lot of information and we very few because it set out to you to all of S. and I want to share a couple of as. And I'm gonna read these just because I think there's just so stressful when they're read aloud at many of the school districts have inadequate equipment and suitable buildings and no funds with which to provide and many of those that have good buildings are so involved in that for them that when they pay the insurance there's no money left to pay the teachers never before in history every state had the people of and so interested in education as well. This isn't from ikea. This is given to me crazy inaugural address in 1923. And I found S. in a large you article written by then governor Huckabee in 2004 in the midst of all the lady back and forth and governor Huckabee was arguing we've we've got to do something. May 2 quotes 3009 thousands of children in Arkansas as providing absolutely new age. To these children to be born in Arkansas is a misfortune and injustice from which they will never recovered and upon which they will look back with better nestling planes in adult life into competition with children born in other states which you today providing more liberally for their child. This is 1 of the first quote that we write and we read it quoted in something else and so I went back and found the source documents this is him in 1923 city at the state of Arkansas requested and it is saying and with and then federal bureau of education which is part of the department of interior and this is striking to me because it seems so much like an adequacy study. They went in search they came at people from the department of interior came is there went to 50 of our 75 counties they surveyed schools it's and it's and it's on Google books I have it in PDF form if anyone would like to see it I would love to share with you it's it's absolutely fascinating at but this is 1 of the first things we read and it just it it straight ahead is in that instance it really sacrifice and the bags so we had an adequacy like report in 1921 and there's a similar report conducted again because the Alexander parade in 1878. 1978 yes using and. Anyway the point yes art 1921 as the first 1 yes 1929 yes and I think the point that I'm making here is that what what we're doing here is 9 or and I certainly didn't narrow it in any city about education conducted before about 2003. Okay sweet Center quotes and we'll move on to 1983 and a case because the previous is out now I'm not gonna talk about the specifics of the case and I at battery in there is the general assembly's response to the pre races and then we get a few of the things that we are required to add to talk about in our adequacy ice axe that includes isolated finding eighties gas tax you a lot more in isolated finding at she understands it and that is a feat it is very complicated and we get the beginnings of isolated sending in this is funding and for districts that have geographic challenges that have your mountains and rivers flowing in a district that make it difficult as you transfer students and very rural districts and districts that have trouble if at transportation and we get some accountability measures we get some standardized testing requirements and we get major changes here are standards of accreditation and wait schools are required to teach and what students are required to take. And now when I start my client Rachel. And this is PAM can hide his that's my favorite and okay why am I going to say that hi this is this is one of my favorite things that I found in this whole history report at this comes from former representative David Matthews some of you'll remember him as a representative some of you will remember that he weighs when in the attorneys square when it's in this school districts in the Lakeview case and that this is from a live live you article he wrote out while well a few is going back and forth this is a way of looking at acas equity and adequacy and I think it is going to illustrate a way to look at equity in adequacy and also at a way to look at our role in your all the questions we ask the equity the representative Matthew suggested that we ask is is the hi divided therapy 90 quickly fairly and this goes back to Taylor's point yesterday the the the answer is not we're not striving for equal we're striving for equitable and fair at but I think this is also a great way to illustrate our role as the bureau and your role as the committee's lease how you how we can see how that has divided and we work really hard to give you all the data and provides a as much as we can about how this was offended and how how we're dividing that sending and sending funding to the schools. And the committees decide whether that whether the way you're doing it is there. So how can banks are paying Atlante. At the only lines here 1995 responses to lake or. Hey in 1995 we get a new funding system I won't go into specifics because that's we know that we can stay with that funding system out we get the beginnings is seeking grant funding this is funding for districts that are gaining students you get the beginnings of fiscal distress which is our program for assisting distaste that are experiencing financial instability and this is very at our first charter school legislation and this is very 8 as conversion charters and these are charters at within a school district in so this school districts creates an and these are not what we think and now eyes open enrollment charters acts those come in 19. Let's go back to my high energy. Okay so with equity we ask is that has invaded fairly. With added 58 we ask is that may be an axe and second we can tell you have a good high as we can tell you what what finding schools are receiving and it's your job to decide is that beginning. But I think it's an interesting way to think about how equity act equity and adequacy are related if the price in half and we're dividing it fairly. People are still not getting at. But if we're not dividing it fairly and it's taking acts again people are still not getting if. Okay we'll go on and see our signs this lady and she thousand 3 and this is where we get. What an interesting. This is very good as a foundation funding in the matrix okay so we now at that name that foundation funding a separate into 3 grades we get our school level staffing which comprises a classroom teachers principals special education teachers all everybody who works at the school we get our school level resource as she's seen visiting the site from the first technology and for instructional materials and we have the Kerry for a ride and your member and that I consultants came for the first time in 2003 meters reading them is iden podcasts at some point they were I guess at some point anywhere I'd and it says yes we just typically referred to them as idle impact S. at by 8. Their recommendation why is that there are a county great expenses these miscellaneous expenses at that would likely carry forward in the same way that's where we get the name and so they said we should find all of these miscellaneous expenses at about the same it's. What makes you and really important that about our foundation funding and the consultant's recommendations and I don't know that I was adverse really clear and nice and to last area we started looking at some of this material at the consultants recommended a resource based model. And when we go into hi Fenninger pranks 9 Julie is gonna tell you about the different ways that states fund their schools and there's a number of different ways and we'll we'll get into that but the consultants recommended defending base I and resources and so this number of teachers for this number of students or there's no one principal heard school building they didn't recommended per pupil amounts Blake we hear it now. And the committees and the General Assembly at the time her name it's heck those resource yes recommendations and turn them into per pupil recommendations and that the thinking of the committee that that's her name and in interviews and in written on as they fight that research based model would be inefficient and would encourage schools to spend more money and so they wanted to change it yet per coupon that. At the end there important that they're gonna be really important next and we look at our finding the consultants base their recommendations on schools and 500 students. So in elementary school and middle school and high school each of 500 students. The General Assembly in part based on the number of very small schools and very small districts in Arkansas change that to you 500 students districts with one K. 12 school. And so what we're at acme Gates you're finding required we've got some really great analysis and out and finding it based on school size apple's hypothalamic that's a really important thing to. And we now also when I think about the meetings we know the majors it's raw and it's not it's not legislation and we'll come back to that in 2006. At this is also where we Gates Iraq categorical funding and so it's 3 of these higher funding for specific populations in seasons you can see we have our English language learner from me and our alternative learning environment sending and enhance student achievement funding which was at that time national school lunch funding and this is pending for students in poverty and so these 3 forms of categorical finding iris into the schools and on a per pupil basis for every season he needs the criteria add for those programs and we get professional development funding at which is also sent to schools on a per pupil basis but since I'm for every student in that school to provide professional development for teachers. We also get hired the beginning of our facilities distress program Yang ADD jasmine will tell you all about that in. Okay we also in 2003 and there's fines this year if he doesn't there's plans as we get major changes its year special education catastrophic occurrences finding such education funding is something it's actually existed in Arkansas since the 19 seventies at B. signs and send federal programs and agencies have a lot more about that at but we can't send changes here are catastrophic occurrences funding we get more changes isolated funding changes to fiscal distress and anguish changes you conversion charter so we in 1989 the legislature hated open enrollment charters and needs there's hunters that are not renting a school district at around the same private organization and in 2003 we get and changes to you our conversion charters into US open enrollment charters and no way the length of time that they can have a charter and different things like. Yes I get major changes to the standards of accreditation and. Okay so it in the 2003 and we know from Taylor's you're correct. That the General Assembly comes back in 2006 and we have more more responses to HBO. This is where we get declining enrollment funding funding for districts that are at leasing students at we get new forms of isolated finding complicating it even further. At we get changes to the matrix and categorical funding levels. And here is where is with the Kerry for aids you members you thousand 3 the consultants recommended that we carry forward a category in the census and find them and in the manner that they've been funded in the past in here we split this into 3 at categories operations and maintenance transportation and central office expenses those are just a few senses right at the superintendent's already. This is the last major change to the matrix. So all of the lands that we currently find me checks. Your enemy takes in 2006 we haven't added anything we haven't subtracting. At. There are still there so we've definitely changed the funding announcmenet the lands in any tax at the same at representing me spread out yesterday and the island that had like insists he adds AT a report an 88 ACT imparted therefore it had focused on main things that school districts are spending many online that are not found in the matrix and the actor has in his and some really interesting Allen says and we'll have that for years nice man about sending their scenes and these are things that we heard in our focus groups and that we see over and over in our superintendent and principal and add teacher surveys that these are items that schools are spending a lot of money and that we're not currently finding in the matrix. Okay select feel we now ends in thank you cases and in 2007 I didn't like you ever actions at bat cases ever in 2007 and we can't find C. or other other things. When it is that we are notices we begin looking at this there's several areas where we are where the General Assembly has created from being outside the matrix and power outside of the categorical as everything's that are still in the matrix so the first transportation and transportation is one of the things that and an animal tracks absentee thousand 12 we get enhanced transportation. And this is distributed to districts based on your impression right all at taking into account and the number of best traders the number AS routes number of masjid in and different factors like that so you Act changes him in which districts need more air transportation from. We get some additional funding for professional development in 2017 and this is where we get into you at professional learning communities and at solutions Hey and and as at representative McKenzie and centers Hester field mentioned last time in 18 has got some really fascinating at finding information and that we are excited for you to see a nice man act professional development funding. In 2018 we get any in student achievement matching grants so in his student achievement is our property from being jury's going to tax you more about that next 9 and again in may these matching grants are fines provided his distaste for things like a tutoring and after school programs when the consultant there is 1990 3 and recommended this type of funding they recommended it for specific purposes like cheering and so these matching grants are funding our funding for districts for those original purpose as. In 2019 it beginning to enhance at teacher salary and you remember that in 2019 the General Assembly chose to raise the minimum teacher salary for this state of repeated characters in the General Assembly if need $50000000 over those years to help districts who are currently at the 0 man to raise that minimum salary and then in the last general session at the General Assembly and it edition on many for districts at to train me the average teacher salary into train raise raise salaries and reduce disparities across the states. Okay in 2019 we had changes to the formula for allocating high cost experiences funding for special education in 18 will have a lot more to say about that is and this is a change to the formula to train more equitably distribute our high cost occurrences. Okay 70014 and this is something I'm and another thing I don't know that I ever really and you're set that at I know pages can back India tax credits this is the last time that we hear from I need it's. South. By this. The committees are we're going about the process in the same manner that we denounce the committees are issuing their report November 1 and so we know that there preclude includes recommendations from the committee and includes a ration is Taylor said yesterday yeah that may be we looked at that but this is what the evidence as and this is by reading. So in some of these recommendations specifically for technology finding and for extra duty from the legislature said okay this is where the consultants had to deal so this is what we're in India. And it in the committee is also the General Assembly and made a number of other changes at some of which are recommended by the committees and some of which were not an open note here that in several within one of their Ashkenaz and the Committee chose not to increase foundation funding for certain major explains he has a sad based on information that they had the schools were not spending all of the foundation committee that they were giving. So the committee's rationale as while they're not spending all this time nation finding for at this particular items so we don't we don't want to increase that as. And and I say here Aframax mention this in 2006 by the consultant came in 2006 the committees issued a report 2006 server is issued at the beginning in 2007 and that included the consultants information of the committee said Wallace isn't binding consultant's report is not binding on ice and Senate included information from the department from the bureau and friends and outside Arkansas education organizations and that comprises he hasn't 6 separate and then in 2008 and going forward you see the ad that we had reports our process is in similar to what we've seen ads obviously involves every 2 years but we had a similar process to the one we have now and and you want to say that all at the at previous reports all of them are out on our website and there's a big button that says education research and it will take years to all of their parts coming back to the very beginning adequacy. Okay we get 2021 we get our A. P. A. recommendations I need a little difference and so I know it's need specific dollar recommendations or specific resource recommendations you need. December teachers for this any number of students or any in this amount of money for the S. 88 was specifically asked not to provide calendar and see and see see if you look back at those materials that those are a little different from the previous and consultant's recommendation that you see on your screen if you're the recommendations concerning teacher quality and access to high quality teachers are matrix levels and specific recommendations at any in student achievement bringing in special education. It's the beginning has a certain and with the picture. Chiles has yesterday about we have a light adequacy and equity and it. And I eat it reaches a point where it becomes a little meaning. If you can it. It seems what what are we talking about. And she tells you her stories about what she thinks about to remember why this is important and she said you all have your own we all have our own story about why this is important. Well this is my reason why this is important. Those are my little boys. Change this here in Sam instruments all. At. James is really into vehicles of all sorts and Sam is just really into watching whatever agency. So I got my phone. As you might imagine there are hundreds of features and those 2 little boys and this. I can for you all day with pictures of these ways I'm not going to you but I K. right. But all year if I asked you can pull out your phones and show me a picture of a child in Arkansas he matters to you. You can show me your right. You show me pictures of yours holding your grandchildren. 70 year or former educators or former educators you spent years whole careers educating students and working in our schools and you can show me pictures of your seat and tell me their stories. Why do we use it as. We did this for my children. Media for your children. You for the children all of your districts as children that you see when you go to the grocery store or out to dinner. That we do it for the students in our successful schools scenes who were just thrilled to talk to **** and telescreens schools where and how much their staff cared about them. We see it for all of. Thank you for being here this morning I had so much fun putting this together I hope it's been helpful to you and and I'll be happy to take your questions. Thank you excellent job and I really appreciate. Your vulnerability and putting that together because it was very reflected throughout your presentation and we are very fortunate to have people like you and miss Holton others that work for us in the bureau of legislative research so we can do our jobs as effectively as possible and be reminded of you know we're here to serve and serve the disk the people that elected us so very much appreciate and I appreciate your pictures of your children to miss hole that are grown up now I have those pictures myself my kids and I think we all have success stories and we all have concerns stories and we help you know we have all those stories from either our own personal experience with what we've experienced ourselves personally or through our careers or through our children or what they. You have experience with currently experiencing we're all in different stages of life and so that's kind of what I think is important to capture as we move forward because you know I've always said we want to bottle up what works and then spread it around the states and to figure out what's working where it's working why it's working and then how we spread it around the state that's kind of my my thought process and we do have several questions and so we will start off on start off with members of the committee and then I'll go to other legislators so first we have senator Elliots if. Thank you madam chair and thank you for the presentation it was indeed riveting and powerful reminder. So I was trying to remember I remember we had these when we were looking that evidence of the things that can really matter and would really move the needle there were 3 things that were recommended to us by on and pike is that were evidence based and I can't remember one of them I was trying to yeah I know that but I when you mention tutoring that's what triggered me because to read wisely the thing well as much as anything else and I think facilitators is what do you have those 3 things out a lorry will have a Mr tip I should have them it's too during its before and after school yes and the third one is facilitators maybe now. Was. At well that's what we did is there are there is a third one and then I started with those 3 my point about business days you know I was I've been in the house and I was at the end of 2006 I was term limited and I these things were so important to us and I just remember when I got re elected to the Senate in our study didn't look anything like it I hardly recognized what we were doing because it it just change just like that so much and that was one of the things. And in it so if we go away from those things what I want us to remember certain reporting to adequacy if I'm getting this correct that is also when we started like to hear these 3 things is this is this awful time we started adding all kind of other things we could spend that money for. Preschool is your third one for the yeah and and right now and because I'm a give this report so with the S. A. funding it started with the S. 3 back in 2003 over time things are added so right now I counted 39 difference purposes that this money could be spent for in the rules this will all change starting next year because that is a writing law changed and I'll discuss that when we get the essay but yes that that was has been diluted a lot and even when you run that many most of those funds are spent on other so we can't really say what they are. And but yep that has happened over the years yeah and the and the other a question that outside of school funding part of that one of the things that we did. The past the law I think in 2011 because this is 1 of the evidence based things that we had all kinds of information this could help move the needle of we pass line 2011 I remember Senator the key and I sponsor that in the Senate. And we have to this day to find it. And so I I don't know what that means to us necessarily other senses something that I think it's important for for us to know and to recognize and I I mean I'm terrible you're with this point and I'll come back to the questions I have thank you thank you for your presentation thank you a follow up question. Do you pull pass legislation that has been passed as she as Senator Elliot reference that has not been funded so we've pass legislation but we never funded the program or the idea to do we ever pull that up. And look at that we we made an effort to pull every seeing it from any education topic that's ever been at past and I've ended we we do you at least that's programs and we simply have inner teacher hit me retention program because we have a number of programs there that we passed and that have not been Senate or are no longer suspended but I don't know that we factor and check to capture at every program that's been passed and added. It may it may be something that we need to look at just to clean it up does that make sense or to decide you know like finally make a decision and then if it's something that's not being funded or not being pursued and maybe we can look at that and go maybe we need to repeal that I mean I don't that's just something to think through. Did you miss hall did you have a. Okay all right thank you I'm gonna get a representative Godfrey. Thank you madam chair thankful is that this fantasy that features thank you and Katie where did you go to elementary school on the Isle okay so my question then in thinking about on the hill elementary which is in my district right up the street from where I live it has changed significantly in demographics and since you're there and so I'm wondering and I think I can answer this if in part of kind of this overview and and historical context if we can kind of see some of those trends over time as well we can see and how schools are even the region's actually that you have kind of introduced yesterday if we can kind of get and some of that demographic contacts especially I'm in the change over time whether that's in an you know particular populations or just general growth or loss of population because I think that will really help you know initiative that we put in place and and programs that we launch to promote adequacy and equity have to be very responsive and to the changing needs of schools and in communities and I think that will be really helpful if we can kind of see an. You know just thinking about does that as an example it has changed dramatically since Lake View and so I know other schools and districts and communities have experienced a similar shift and I think it would be really helpful for us to be able to see especially some of those most significant trends and changes that would impact the work that schools and districts need to be doing and responding to says that something that either is included in in information that's going to come up or something that I mean I know that's a big ask just thank you like what are all of the demographic changes of every school over the past 20 years that's not what I'm asking for but is there a way that we can kind of at least consider that or or question how these changes might be impacting the work that we need to be doing that and that schools and districts need to be doing. I think I have a slide that says overview the whole state population and those changes unless I removed it because our maximum slides but in there is there is a significant change we can go and do it. Probably by region we've not done that but will be glad to do that we can pull the census information but you're right it will be M. it's pretty astounding to look at the. I I have Senator Chesterfield then senator garner center Chesterfield thank you madam chair. One of the pieces of legislation that is no longer sponsor I mean is no longer fund it was passed out with senator Elliots legislation that provided for enhanced payment for those persons in high priority areas within column F. schools then we call them high priority schools because we knew that the kids living there should be a high priority the state of Arkansas. One of the things that. Continues to strike me is the lack of housing any impact on how we recruit and retain teachers. And so I one time we did have a housing but we did have housing legislation that provides 2000 calendar year incentive for folks to to stay in it they state they would get $10000 toward the purchase of a home we had about 5 persons who qualified for it. But that's no longer there and I'm just wondering. When talking to individuals individual superintendents and our principals. It's housing steal the major challenge on one of the major challenges in attracting the brightest and the best to teach in those high priority areas or was that a part of the conversation it's absolutely a part of the conversation and so that's one of the questions that was included in our principal survey and we asked the civic questions about out why teacher what the biggest at recruitment and retention challenges Iraq and lack of housing options is is one of those options and and so agencies have more specifically about that and in April and that's definitely part of the conversation so that the in in talking about health care we were talking about how hard it is by residents to have places to Leo so we've got a look at the totality of how we are sure by tracking and maintain professionals in the state of Arkansas and housing is got to be at the top of that list to some extent thank you mention thank you just remember your question for April when they do the survey report senator garner. Thank you madam chair own your report on page 27 can you speak more about. ACT 60 of the second extraordinary session dealing with isolation funding more specifically on how that relates to lake view and when they did the consolidation of schools during that time. Okay and SESAC 60 is at the council or consolidation and measure and at that time and schools were required to consolidate adds the best Vandersteen if they were it is just if we less than 350 students and I believe there were exceptions made for a few districts is where extremely isolated and and at this point you'll you'll see when we get into our funding and spending reports next month by after the creation of waivers there are and it's a growing number of districts that are fewer than 350 seasons and his sisters can obtain a waiver from that law and you can talk more specifically and about that about the waivers well I can also I was at the department of education in 2005 and we just gone through a huge round of consolidations that were the Act 60 consolidations and we went from 310 school districts to 254 with them like a 12 month period and then every year I was at the department for 5 and half years and every year there were 2 or 3 or districts that were consolidated in and this is all done. In the purpose that or the purpose was for efficiencies to be created at the school district level so we're now down to 235 for 234 regular school districts after prime club and dollar right but we do have a growing number of charter systems and that's where you see that we're increasing and some of the smaller districts thank you for the follow up yet my study of it is this one actually a decision made for a legal requirement of the lake view decision it was a decision made by the political body and in my opinion one of the worst decisions for rule Arkansas that you could add I know these communities at the school shut down for devastated I live in the consequences of those actions now where communities are basically bear And because they shut down the schools I think it's a good lesson because I was bipartisan piece of legislation back whenever is first past where this body thinks about money adequacy and all this but I don't think about the actual impact it has on communities and as that number grows especially in rule south Arkansas where I cover it's something I think we need to address because we look at numbers we look at it because we look at all these things but whenever you shut down the school like the extensive amount they did back then nobody to devastate the community you hurt those children's in their studies that prove this is specifically for Arkansas so just a thought moving force return with the history of Lake View and some of the worst bad decisions that came out of that may by this body something we should put together and think about as moved for thank you ma'am. What we have a cot comprehensive look at the waivers in the schools that are remaining open because of the waivers is that going to be in a future report. And you lose you M. A. R. proof and in the future and waivers and and we'll we can give you a list of the schools that are at their operating out okay absolutely. Right. Thank you representative back. Thank you madam chair it is always represented Godfrey's question prompted so that's how I went back I was looking at the matrix talking about going back to the demographic is changing demographics within our school district I was looking at it appears to me that almost all of anything that's in the matrix that is set to address changes in demographics would be in categorical funding and not in the actual maintenance. That's good and I'm not an actual announcing in foundation portion of the of the matrix and. It's actually interesting because that's only like 4.5 percent of the funding in the category funding so. The question I have is. Are there some some findings within within the foundation funding that would address demographic ships that I'm not saying here yeah that's it maybe Senate category this kind of covered up by something else or something that you know of. That the way I look at it is that everything is in the matrix generally is to direct address adequacy and so that's what all students need for adequacy then you get to those categorical is and that's where you're looking at those different populations of students and I think you know those first 3 categorical are the state's attempt to provide equity for adequacy and then over the years some of that additional funding for the special that in the E. S. S. L. enhanced funding for the supplemental funds I think this would be where you would find the legislators attempt to address those changes but to specifically address demographic changes I'm I can't think of anything offense that is specific to that. Thank you. All right are there any other questions members of the committee right send you thank you. Right now we are getting 70. Sorry. I'm Julie held again and we will move on to our final report for the day and this is we'll finish our attempt to really lay the groundwork to get us ready to move in the adequacy next next time in February. And this report speaks a little is your question yesterday representative Godfrey and I thought is really interesting questions about the equal opportunities verses the equal outcomes and I think because this report is going to go through all those educational indicators that judge Kilgore pointed to in those early like few decisions I think I think it says that there is an importance placed on outcomes and maybe not necessarily the equality of outcomes but the outcomes of our students and then I was also thinking the that are not child left behind and the state accountability system that we had at that time there was also more emphasis placed on you know right line outcomes than we have today so that I do think that's a legislative purview that at your option. So at. Yesterday when Taylor was presenting her history and going through the legal citizens you harder may have heard or mention the abysmal rankings and I think that's what we're up against 370 0 to the Supreme Court agreed with judge categories decision that the state has a remarkably serious problem with student performance. So for the past few education adequacy studies we've included these in our final report and I thought this year it was really better to look at these at the beginning to see where we're starting from so we're gonna go through each of these measures and compare where we are now to where we were then. And as I mentioned yesterday unfortunately I think we'll see that in recent years we've either plateaued or we've and even declined on some indicators. So the first thing that does Kilgore mentioned was the state assessment scores and at the time there were 44 percent of fourth graders who are proficient in reading and only Thorpe 34 percent proficient in math. Since that time we've changed test a couple of times so we can't really make direct comparisons but on the test that we're using now which is ACT aspire we have about 40 percent of fourth graders scoring at what would be the equivalent of proficient and 43 percent scoring that level in math you can see this chart tracks the benchmark scores that we had in place for a long time and these were specific to the Arkansas state standards that were developed and in those years. Then in 2015 we had joined several states in using what was called the common core state standards in so we adopted a test which we said we were going to use acronyms I can't remember exactly what park stands for but it was a test that was given across several states so that we can make comparisons any agency that we M. we didn't look so great on it we have 34 percent of our fourth graders scoring well on it an English language arts in about 10 percent fewer than that scoring well in math. The next year we started using ACT aspire any can see since then and we got a solid line from 2016 to 2019 scores were fairly level. The M. did but there was not testing obviously 2020 due to covid and then in 2021 our scores drops and this was really a nationwide phenomenon there's just a lot of learning loss during code it for all students across the country. When you look at the same set of assessments for eighth grade you can see there was a lot of growth on the benchmark exams in those years for eighth graders both in literacy and math. Then we get to those Parkin says months in the city similar scores 301017 percent scoring proficient and then on the ACC you do see more growth among the eighth graders the need to among the fourth graders although there was some of that loss again in 2021 DataCo good. So the next thing that judge coke or talked about where the national assessment of educational progress scores and is later in Taiji yesterday this is the one test where we can make statewide comparisons and reviews that to select the states that will compare information on and you'll see me doing that with some things later on in this report and that test is given to sample of students in every state so not all students take this test and it's given an several subjects at the fourth and eighth grade level. So M. J. Kilgore looked at it and said that we're below the national average and if you look at us now we are still falling below the national average. You can see for the fourth grade reading M.. The national was scored at 35 percent that was the national average we were 31 percent this most recent year so actually the gaps a little bit wider than it was back when judge coke or was riding. And I did I did want to note in this is a crazy Haidar thank you but on these charts all the blue lines represent what's happening in the nation all the red lines represent what's happening in Arkansas from here on out so when you look at fourth grade math you can see we got pretty dang close from 2007 to about 2013 and then while the nation scores maintained a level of about 40 percent scoring and proficient and above we fell to 34 percent. This and at the M. eighth grade reading the gap has narrowed over the years although there's been some variation in the scores. And then in math there's we've increased for their with their eighth grade math and yet we still are about 6 points behind the national average. The other comparison is for science scores these are fourth in eighth grade and you can see the trends here there was an assessment and science given in 2019 the scores haven't been released at the state level yet so am I didn't include that year. So the next measure that judge coke or pointed to where the ACT scores and said Arkansas students scored several tents below the national average between 19901991. And now Arkansas students are and a little bit further behind that although there are some explanations that we can talk we'll talk about you can see that trend here and how that gap has widened but that started mailing 2017 and at that time we will increase our participation rate we've always had a higher participation rate on the ACT then a lot of states simply because we live in the middle of the country and a lot of the universities in the middle of the country except ACT for their college entrance exam you get on the coast you're more likely to have to take the SAT and participation rates do affect scores because you're not talking about a random sample of kids you're talking my kids are taking the test because they want to get into a college when we start doing universal which is a policy that allows all students to have that opportunity to applying it in the schools your widening the pool of kids are taking the test in that does affect those school worse so um what ACT and and researchers advises when you're making comparisons you really want to compare as to states that have similar participation rates so we're gonna be able to do that in this next set of charts in this is where we've pulled in those top 8 states that we showed you yesterday. These are the top 10 or the top 20 percent of state's scoring on the night exam so we want to see what their scores look like any can see the highest scoring state was Massachusetts they had twins the average score 27.6 and the lowest among the states it was Wyoming with 19.8 yet again you can see where participation is probably a factor in the difference in this course. When you look at the top is sorry be states which may be a little more like us you see Virginia had the highest in Tennessee had the lowest yet again participation plays a factor there. And then when you look at the surrounding states Missouri had the highest Mississippi had the lowest Mississippi did have 100 per cent participation we were above them we usually have 100 percent participation in 2021 that fell to 99 percent when I was going through the scores I notice that a lot of states their participation rates did fall and I'm assuming that has something to do with COVID. So 1 bright spot just coke or found when he was writing about it was that we did tend to exceed the national average when it came to the ACT English score unfortunately that's not true anymore and again that increase participation yes it has something to do with it although you see those scores started falling below the national average really back in about 2011 so quite awhile ago. And again here those comparisons with the top names dates and this is looking at the percent who are ready and ACT uses a score of 18 for English reading this so in Massachusetts 92 percent of their ACT test takers for Chris they have your test takers in Wyoming 53 percent were in in Connecticut also had that 92 percent. Among the SRB states the range is a little bit lower 43 percent in North Carolina to 86 percent in Maryland and Virginia. And then in our and continuous states that range is about the same 43 percent was the lowest in Mississippi 59 percent again was the highest in Missouri. Some of these other indicators that and just go for determined were also important indicators for how we were doing didn't have anything to do with test scores so he looked at college going rates and and he said for 96 to 98 we had 53 percent of our high school graduates attending college. Now that percentage is actually lower we don't have that we have fewer than 50 percent as you can see on this slide you're going straight on into college and the data for this comes from the national center of education statistics and also the Arkansas department of higher education. He also looked at the number of adults who graduated from high school and while he's is still rank lower than the national average as we did when he was riding we have really increased the percentage we've gone from 81 to 88 percent and we're really right at the national average for just below it. Again I'm looking at the and top performing night states you can see that a large swath of their population holds college and high school diplomas and and these are adults 25 years and older in each of the states and same is true in SRB states Maryland had the highest with 90.4 percent Texas at 84.6 percent in the surrounding states M. or similar Texas was the lowest among high school diplomas 0 was the highest. We move on to adults with bachelor's degrees back when his writing in 2001 we ranked 40 ninth for our population of 25 years or older with a bachelor's degree in restoring 40 ninth out of 50 states interest and the district of Columbia and here is what that trans looks like so you can see while the nation over that time it gained an average of 6 percentage points with a bachelor's degree we gained only 4 percentage points. Here when you can see a real difference I think when you look at where then top Nate states are and in Massachusetts 45 percent of the population of adults hold a bachelor's degree and the lowest in that group is Indiana with 26 percent. You look at this sorry be states there's of the range is a little bit less but it still goes from 25 percent in Kentucky to 41 percent in Maryland in in surrounding states again it's lower we're not the lowest and Mississippi is with 22 percent we have 23.3 in Texas has the highest at 30.8 percent with bachelor's degrees. So in and he looked at the how many adults in the state had graduate degrees Arkansas tied for last place in the nation and if you look at us now we actually reached the rank of 47 in 2017 and since that time in this is 2019 data we ranked again in last place 50 first. And here's Health that. Rap looks in those trend lines. Yes ma'am. So many compares again with those top performing Nate states Massachusetts one fifth of their adult population holds a graduate degree in Indiana at 10 percent of their people do. You get to those as sorry be states the range goes from 10 to 20 percent or 19 percent and then contiguous states it's much lower and in it they they're we are sitting at the bottom at 8.3 percent Missouri has 11.8 percent. So he also looked at median household income and at that time we ranked 49 the main the states. We still rank 49 th all those that are median income certainly increased since then nationally at it's risen to 65 almost 60 $6000 median income we're sitting right at 40 9000 2019. So when you look at states you can see their incomes are much higher than as in those top performing states except for Indiana and Massachusetts in median income is almost $86000 when you look at the S. R. EP states Maryland is the highest with also about $87000 and then the contiguous states and again we beat Mississippi M. so the ranges 46000 to about $64000. When you look at this is a map of census data this is looking by school districts of median income in an in the state and the mapping program we use divides this up end to what it calls natural breaks so these aren't specifically quintiles that is an but that kind of. M. I. opening or I popping thing about this is you look at the bottom 4 categories and we're only talking about a median income of about $29000 and I think this is really important member talking about education because we often talk about our free and reduced kit free on reduced lunch kids knows poverty kids but we also have a lot of communities that are dealing with poverty and do not have resources for their schools and this is why you're going to see next month when we talk about the ending there's a lot of state funding that goes out to schools because we're trying to equalize opportunities for those kids in a lot of a lot of the indicators we talked up to now all right have a direct tie think to the poverty because it is just such a challenge to overcome in the classroom. Just Kilgore also mention teacher pay and he said we generally rank between 40 eighth and fiftieth in teacher pay back in the 2001 when he's riding in 2020 and this was using data from the national center for education statistics jasmine's gonna talk a whole lot more about teacher salary make comparisons in April but we were 48 we've moved up to 26 and 2019 this is before some of that recent finding that you guys have put in place so we may see some movement when we talk about this again in a couple years. But here's our trend line 4 and teacher salary. For per pupil expenditures when judge Kilgore was riding we ranked 48 here we have seen quite a bit of improvement we ranked 30 eighth in the nation according to the national center of education statistics we were spending in 2019 over $10000 per student the national average was 12000 600. We can compare these M. with those high performing states so when you look at top Nate states you can see there's quite a range but the top performing states are spending about $20000 per student 7 double what we are. And as sorry be states it's a smaller range but Maryland was again clocked in at 15000 per student North Carolina was the lowest among that states that 9000. And then hear the contiguous states. And lastly judge Kilgore talked about some rankings that education week has put out. For many years back then we were receiving an F. on the adequacy indicator and its C. on the equitable indicator and there's. Benson changes in that methodology over the years they look at state's financial school spending impending information and and we've. If we're scoring a little bit better but and inequity we do get good scores and and the other rating we've fallen in recent years. So some of the big take aways from this presentation is that unfortunately as I said yesterday we don't have any clear real success stories on our education indicators over the last 20 years with the exception of the per student spending we are we have improved poverty is pervasive and so many of our schools and our communities and that affects the ability for policies to make a difference and I think. And I don't want to embarrass you senator tester bill but you present this so well and I hope this works. That we still have Lakeview issues. And this works when we set up when I did it last time we dress them but we still have a few issues. Anyway this is what she said she said we've done a lot of work over the years but we still have like a few issues and I think I thought that was a very good faith and I'm so sorry the volume did not work. This. So that ends this I did wonder mind you before we go to questions next month we will talk about funding so we'll spend all of Monday morning morning talking about sending in some of the major things that we're going to hear a is that Elizabeth mention the US that efficiency both in spending and achievement peak in schools of about 500 students and that is what has drove a lot of the funding decisions and and recommendations that were made over the years by on in practice and other researchers there are various vending methods that the state's use and we'll discuss those 4 main ways a lot of states are used per people foundation funding like we do but there are other mechanisms and we will also look at the different ways that states used to turn to determine the cost of adequacy. N. representative McKenzie I think next month we'll get to some of your questions about looking at adequacy and what those recommendations are and if they work and there have been quite a few literature reviews looking at that and we'll we'll be sharing that is. So with. And then we'll have to see warning after in the afternoon we'll talk about spending and so with some of that research does show that spending does matter and it matters also what it's being spent on so we'll talk about what research is found in that regard we're will does read very methodically in in detail manner our funding stream so what spend it 3 foundation what's been it through the categorical or what and what's and additional and then we'll talk about on Tuesday how those monies are spent and then we will also see it show you how the spending patterns vary among the different types of schools so I think it it's going to be really data heavy and I was gonna say just be sure you come in well rested and not hungry because it's gonna be a lot of information that I think it'll be interesting for you. And now if you have any questions on the other. I have a question. And now it's kind of a waiver request but when you look at the heat map of the school districts by income. And you have that heat map of the the US census 20195 your household median estimates. I would like for you to do an overlay of this isn't successful schools on top of that he okay. And I'd like to see a. Geographically what that looks like. And then I have another question let's see I'll get to it I'm gonna go to other questions and I'll come back to mind Senator Chesterfield you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair and thank you ladies for the hard work you obviously putting in a lot of the. Each is in all of that that makes it more human or humanizes it and your vote and of course my quote was wonderful. Even better because we couldn't hear it. Made my day I am concerned though because one of the issues that has plagued us for a long time is people teaching out of their feels. And I'm wondering. In those successful schools how many teachers are how we can look at that difference and what it makes and how successful our children are because I'm an English major and. I'm forced to teach science somehow I don't think the result is going to be as great as it be so that would that's one of the things in and I'm just reminded of the price that is individuals who had such an impact on this it paid because they do no longer exists. It was made sure that lake view would no longer exist I believe judge Kilgore lost his bid for re election because of this act because see I always busy so people paid a price for us to look at what we can do better for our children. I think it's important to remember it's also important to remember that we're only as good as what we putting in our children only as good as what is put into them. And the expectation which is not measurable. But the entities who are doing this work many of them are not comfortable many of them having to read the lesson right before they presented to their children because this is something with which they are unfamiliar but they get up and they do their job every day so I would like to know how many people are teaching outside of the field and being called upon to to deal with that with which they are unfamiliar them sales. I appreciate that thank you mention. Thank you I do have another question what on page 19 and my binder what are the spending criteria because I'm I'm concerned I'm confused as to how this criteria on equity rating and spending rating is. Use to because our equity rating you know it's very high that are spending rating isn't S.. Yes we've increased our spending so what's the criteria there I can't understand a take away other than just is $1 amount is that the way we're spending the money is the way we're funding the money what is exactly the criteria for the spending it and that's educational aids and I I don't I haven't found their methodology that spells it out super clearly I can send you what what they have in there and I'll be glad to do that okay because. That that does not. Make any sense to me and I'd like to I guess I understand that methodology a little bit better because I mean if you look at Virginia and you look at some of these other expenditures I mean purpose people and then outcomes. You have I look at Virginia at 12 thousands but their outcomes are super high and so I just I'd like to more information on that and then you know the other part of. I mean I've I wish every legislator could sit through this and should sit through this I think it should be mandatory because. Economic developments. Is. We know we're even close to what we needed to be I mean I go back to what senator garner said I agree with him about schools closing and how it just destroys the economy of rule Arkansas but we are not focusing our economic development efforts on growing rule Arkansas I mean I get angry as hell to be quite Frank with you when I look at my districts because it is the poorest of the poorest of the poorest in north central Arkansas. And. I mean it it I mean there's from the heatmap. And so I mean but I know that we have top performing schools and that those counties as well so. No I I want to see the correlation but that medium house income is really. An important thing so you know we've got to figure out way to tie policy together in my opinion and then the other question I have on participation on the ACT. Is there any did you look at any reason why. You know there's such a low participation rate on the A. C. T. and in like Virginia Massachusetts I mean because of course you're if you're only testing 7 percent of your student population scores of P. 25.6. Some of those differences are because when we do have the universal testing and Arkansas colleges tend except ACT on the coasts both west and east coast the SAT is the more common exam to get into colleges there yeah I I know I know that but I mean I. I mean generally on so many schools or move into the ACT so. I mean yeah if you're going to like an Ivy League school most likely it's SAT but if you're at a public university on the east coast they're taken ACT exam they're accepting that so I hear that and I understand that because I know I've got you know. Kids of it I mean I I'm very familiar with that territory. And I think there was a trend to not to get kids to take the ACT or the SAT. And I thought that was horrible because there were so many kids that just they weren't even taken the. Exam to qualify to become national merit semifinalists the PSAC. And so you know I think participation in those things and I know kids that just left money on the table because they had no idea to take the PSAC. And they could have qualified for scholarships so you know I I'm not sure if there was any literature around participation rates beyond I mean I understand what you're saying but a public university of Maryland I can guarantee you will take the ACT thanks at the ACT university of Florida takes as such except the ACT SO and and not the top 5 public university so. You know I I think yes Harvard's SAT not ACT but not every kids applying to Harvard so I kind of want to know more about why their participation rate is so low because I'm not I really. I think there's probably something bigger there anyway all right. Senomyx. Thank you mentor and I'm actually going to my first question is a follow up to that. Do we know the 6 percent that Massachusetts uses for their testing is a random sampling of their students are or or are we talking about the best of their best because if you put up you know the best 5 percent of Arkansas kids against the 5 best of Massachusetts kids I bet they give a run for their money so is that a true apples to oranges comparison between the 2 states well that the testing is you know at the student's choice in a lot of states unless it's universal like in Arkansas where they're sitting in a classroom at school taking at. So it's as self selected by the student and have if they are trying to school that takes ACT then those are the students that will will take that exam so you're right it's it's hard to make those comparisons and that's why the advice is to if you're going to compare your state with someone else it was someone that has a similar participation right okay yeah exactly I would think that one of the students going to college are gonna be want or taking it so it's going to be your better students And so that's not necessarily a good comparison our next question I have is is there any way to look at work for certifications between the state and no we look we talk about college and graduation rates but I also know that a welder HVAC industrial mechanic some of those guys are making a lot more money than somebody with a graduate degree and our state. Maybe a lot better position so I don't know if there's a way to look at that but I'd be interested in that and then the last thing. Is when we look at per pupil spending I want to know if you all could maybe take it a step further because the cost of goods and services in Arkansas is generally a whole lot cheaper than it is and say and east you know the the the different coast and so $10000 in per pupil spending in Arkansas is going to go a lot further because of the buying power here than spending $10000 on the coast so to help us to make sure we're getting a good again apples to apples comparison is that something you all can take into account when you give us those comparisons is obviously our per pupil spending is gonna be last because we get we can get the same amount for Laos as a coastal state spending a lot more. I think there's some regional and cost of living index is that we can apply I don't know that we will be out to get to state level on on those that but we can definitely do I would just be curious to see if that puts us more in line with the or other states if we make that comparison thank you madam chair. You're welcome representative McKenzie again members I'm going to the members of the Senate committee and then to our legislators. Thank you madam chair course my biggest take away from this probably was that it's the miscarriage just see that we have increased you know the spending significantly. And yet yielded. Lesser results so that certainly gives us something to evaluate how we can perhaps change one thing I'm wondering is I know that we're going to take a look at some of the best schools in their practices I think that's correct right to compare I think that's obviously a great idea. But as I as I go to ball games is I'm we're all trying to figure out how do we fix this problem will want to. And I notice when I go to watch a basketball game. All the kids today can jump higher run faster shoot better across the board I mean it just trip and so we're seeing in another number things going into their for instance parents are taking their kids to. Travel ball younger. But I wonder if we can look at because obviously these are school sports we have figured out how to it really increase our ability in this area now I know a lot of the things are whenever we lose a coach in schools. Everybody wants to know who are going to hire we get a committee together and we go out and we had him for the very best coach we can get an a for coach doesn't produce schools rate change and yet we don't have I don't believe that same philosophy with a math teacher with the science teacher. And so I'm just wondering. Can we take a look at let's see what are we doing in I think we know somewhat but maybe put him upside decide this is how we treat school sports these results we get but we don't apply that same kind of philosophy perhaps to our academics and maybe that's why we're not seeing that the kids today that this that the distinguish between how we're performing versus 20 years ago with athletics as opposed to with academics so it I know I something we probably can't do now but maybe it's something worth exploring because I think if we did we would see what I think we already know is true is that we are able to excel. When we and the community cares about something enough and the parents so that's I guess something I would like to. Thoroughfare. All right representive 11. Thank you madam chair Julie thank you in the Elizabeth please excuse the simplicity of my first questions but I leads in the second but we looking at the dead at the data that you provided it seems that there is a correlation between the number of Arkansas students are attending hi read out of high school and then the number of Arkansas students that you show 25 and under who have a bachelor's degree so with the decline of both I would state that there will be some correlation that that would match up with that would you agree. I haven't run it but yes that many with their same direction it seems that over the last 68 years we as a state we've put a lot of emphasis we've put a lot of of state revenue focusing on is Senator Garner Sir are both mentioned. The lack of development of of economic development of some of our rural areas so we've we've put a lot of resources over the last 6 to 8 years into preparing workforce that that has been one of the. Big. Deficits that we've seen in our ability as a state to draw new economic development and our state is because we're not workforce ready so we put a lot of emphasis into that and by doing that we have bolstered our career tech training in our high schools and so I think that's a factor as well as the number of students not going to a 4 year institution because we've put so much emphasis and saying we're lot of kids just don't need to go to college they need to become plumbers is representative makes them to become welders and so. Yes I think the data you provided is is very good but I think that there is also an underlying factor that is that we as a state have put so much emphasis in career in tech which sends them into a different pathway outside of higher ed but also in. The lack of those 4 year degrees and so that that adds to that declining data that you said and I think that also adds to what Senator Irvin is asked about the A. C. T.. It if I'm a student at at Cabot high school and and and these advisers are directing me and I've got an interest in going to HVAC I'm not going to take the ACT so I think that there's a factor that the number of students across our state who are not taking the ACT because we're we're pushing them into directions that the ACT is not necessary however students going to take it when their junior one time and that universal testing but after that they're not out there making those elective testing so do you would you agree that that kind of all falls together I do agree and and I did not address the and Tax because I was just going 3 judge co gore's indicators that we will present a report jasmine will present that in April in it we will talk about those critic pass it will try to make a comparison I'm not sure that that data is there to do that state by state but if if it is we'll make that comparison at that time to to do would we have the the availability of the data to show the students that are graduating from high school choosing career and tech as their pathway and. How that education that they're receiving in their respective schools is benefiting them and that we are adequately spending. Dollars to prepare them for careers in tech as opposed to just our focus on preparing them for a 2 or 4 year institution. Jasmine is going to present that report and I don't know that we. She's done that analysis yet jasmine even anything to add on the availability of the data because I really this is your area. Well she's coming down I'll just say testing came to his I'm a little over a year ago and she was the director institutional research a plastic tax so she's got a lot of expertise in this that I do not have. I'm working on that report now and I will start I've made notes of everything you've just mentioned and will do my best to and. Put that into the report and the presentation if if the date is available if those types of comparisons I'm even if it's not an apples to apples you know folk you know. Ability to shadow comparisons of the Kilgore and. Measure for what we're doing for work force and we certainly can provide longitudinal data showing if we've increased workforce ready and workforce right now 6 out or anything else you would like to see as far as career technical education please let me know and I'll be glad to try to address that. Thank you. Well it and just as you're walking back to your desk jasmine I mean I I'll follow up I mean I I don't disagree but I want to see if the money we're spending is working like where the jobs because I don't see them that's my problem I think we spend all this money on career and technical education and preparing them for the job market and workforce ready and yada yada yada well I look at my counties and they know jobs you know I'm just I mean and that's incredibly frustrating for me because I feel like you know you're you're we're moving in one direction here but then it's not moving in the same direction over here and we're not getting the results that were wanting so but that is an economic development issue and we need to focus those efforts you know on with the 2 have to be married right so whatever we do in education has been married up to the goals and economic development in my opinion and so you know that that's where I want to see if we have the data that supports we spent this amount of money on career and technical education. Was that translating into is 2 jobs and where those jobs are located. Because our our map is you know you have you have you have big big holes you know south Arkansas my area north central Arkansas's a big gaping yellow hole you know and so you got holes in the delta you got those are those are communities that have just gone away and so at that are dying and so you know we have to focus I think our efforts and I mean I'm a I'm a college person I think college is great now I want as many people to go to college as possible I understand the most people you know have different priorities and different objectives but. And and I want there to be people that pursue other avenues as well because it's not a one size fits all approach but we as a state have to make a decision of goals and how we're going to reach those goals so if you can try to get as much of that information to say you know this is translating into X. amount of jobs and these are where the jobs are locating. You know or for instance yeah we have a career and technical education center in welding in this school. This high school is that translating into job placements for those graduating with that from that high school and if so what's the median income of that and what's the percentage of their job placement are they at 99 percent job placement or are they at 30 percent. And where those jobs located. You know are we spending a lot of money preparing jobs to go people to work on a pipeline in another state. Well that's not helping the rule economy of Marshall Arkansas Sims I mean so that's where we have to make we have to have those kind of policy discussions thank you. And M.. Okay I will have I have heard all that and I will certainly you my best to try to incorporate that and that that current technical education poor and I also and if the date is out there and accessible and I'm able to provide any me anything that's meaningful in terms of I mean the farmers in the welders accept or they still I mean if they're receiving a certificate and that I mean they're still probably probably still have placement scores because for reading and you know in writing and so if there's anything that's out there that I can bring a narrowing corporate that's certainly do my best right thank you I'm representive Godfrey. Thank you madam chair my question was actually identical to you and Senator 11 questions about the methodology about the the ranking so I just wanted to add my an interest in that as well and I think it would be helpful and maybe as a part of or at least before and the discussion about spending I think it may help contextualize what we're doing or not doing and. In regards to spending that's giving us those low ratings and then and we can help this team what changes we can make it necessary so just wanted to add my interest to that conversation as well thank you thank you senator Beckham. I have a couple questions on the ACT ratings. Or look at other states what classroom for the. Reporting. The reporting juniors or seniors or. The M.. To get consistent data for these rankings we looked at graduating seniors scores. So it all we're looking at for Arkansas as well. In Arkansas the reported number wise because all all high school juniors take them but you students can also take them again and again and the way I ACT reports that is they use their highest score is that's reported so I all of our while our students are reflected in that it's not that necessarily this test they took as a junior because for of reporting for high schools that high school graduating class to make the national comparison. Is there a way to break out the the number that we are looking at that are junior test scores only because that's day has on yes online that and does he reports for the junior class if you're if you're testing students a year before the rest of the country and you're comparing that. Even if it did regardless of the percentage is because you the numbers dramatically. And if we don't have real numbers we can't make real decisions. We're we're not comparing apples to apples with other states you're we're we're looking at. ACT score significantly lower than the rest of the country as well because we're testing these kids as juniors and and using those scores and. Large percentage of the of the population especially since we're going to career technical. Training correct right I agree with you. Thank you. Senator Elliott. Wow. Thank you madam chair I am a I have a question and and I'll just admit this will be a common as well and as Senator Irvin I think it be okay if people understand of for some time we've had a committee of the 3 people you senator Bledsoe when I discuss and professional degrees just in our own little world paying attention to quality of life and all parts of the state that if we don't get more college graduates to do the things that we need to have a college graduates do. We are forever going to be and the problematic position and just grow and quality of life all over our state in the rural areas and everywhere that deserve to have that so what what I hope we can do is not get into some kind of match between which one is more important what we call. A career tech and what we call college education because and I will only say this just because it's it's true and the other parts of the world. In places like Switzerland and Germany and the Netherlands were both those things are highly highly thank you is not a discussion of do we need one or the other it's bows. And it's also very true that you might have a college degree and down the road you decide you want to move over to something that we call career tech nobody thinks anything of it other than that's what we need period end of story. But because I think when it comes to workforce development. And I've had this discussion time and time again even with the chamber of commerce. 4 year degrees and higher are part of workforce development it's not something different we need that are not real or yes and if we don't pay attention to preparing kids for both those things I think we're forever going to be to my next point. We spend all this we spend a lot of money and I think it's I think it's needed and but it is a fair question to keep asking ourselves what are we getting for it. But I'm wondering as we look at this. How do we it. If if we are able to to. Determine. In these other states. The community from which these kids are coming that where they are doing so well how these other states. Paired up with us as far as the quality of life and opportunities that kids have in their communities why we're not asking the schools to do everything. We give the schools a lot of money and then we think everything ought to be resolved and back to senator Durbin's point is not resolved because we haven't set the platform we haven't done the things we need to do in our communities because we've not as Jack of the Committee that should be in charge of this we've not ask a single thing of the act and economic development committee in conjunction with the Education Committee and yet we say things like where they're one the same. And how do we do that. If we are not having those conversations that together we have been separately. But not together. The other quick questions I have about demographics I'm wondering can can you guys up when we look at the demographics. Can you also look at patterns of movement where people have moved there is a community for example let's just say we were really really concerned about we're just studying Lake View. What I've been the movements of the folks that were living say in a community that now it does look completely different because of the movement of the people who live in the area you know for example there are places in Arkansas. That were well integrated places schools that were well integrated from we started this process. And you can place look at places now where just outside of I don't know you this is this example I grew up in southwest Arkansas I know where hold this I know that's for Linda Chesterfield is from I grew up playing basketball and every little Podunk place in my area so I knew Spring Hill for example was a tiny little place. But not when we started studying adequacy. The hope school district looked very very different from what the hope school district looks like now but so does Spring Hill. All of a sudden it's a it's a real school district and we are trying still to be. To do something with adequacy with that kind of change and so I if you can let us know about those population trained migrations and changes of when you look when you tell us about the communities that that would be great. And lastly I just I think it's a. I know the public but like for us to be magical and come here and just fix everything. But if we don't decide we can somehow go to school together. And work together as a public I think we're going to be the same this for a long time. Because you know my little school district where I grew up there were 5 little districts they all consolidated into one school the beta County school that's a great thing they did it but they did it they did it on their own. They decided they'd assign we need to do this for our kids and so I would just like the public to speak about do we really need to keep trying to have so many schools when we can decide for ourselves what's better for our kids rather than moving away from each other all the time because it puts us in a position of chase in the public and trying to make sure everybody gets a great education and I don't after all this time I don't know how this is going to be doable unless the public decides. We're going to be a part of this. And and back to the issue of. When senator McKenzie mentioned I always say we could learn some things from sports. Because you could ask any body in Arkansas what's the north star for the Razorbacks and they can tell you what thing the hard start is we don't. We need a north star for education student. Everybody ought to be telling us. Always use a person pumping gas at the gas pump because that's where I get to talk to a lot of people. I ask that person. What is the north star for education in our state it ought to be clear enough that they can tell us. And I think that's what we have not done what we need to be we haven't decided what the north star is and stand with that that's one the things Massachusetts has done that Maryland has done. They decided kind of what they want to be and they are working. So. That's not a question but I can promise all questions. I hope we can pay attention to those kind of things to. As a as a committee pay attention those kind of things. Role Arkansas should not have to shut down. We we need a different response tomorrow Arkansas and it's not going to be done just through education that seems pretty obvious. Thank you madam chair. Thank you M. I have represented back and I'm gonna go to senator garner and Senator Pitsch because I've been waiting a lot the representative back then I'll come back to your representive Capri. Thank you chair 2 quick questions and and maybe some request and the teacher salary. Numbers are to shelter those adjusted for cost of living. Those those were not we will do that when we get to our teachers our okay reports that that that's on the other one is. Just a thought occurred to me in the comparison on the on the A. C. T. I was I was thinking that possibility some of the states that the SAT is the more. The bigger test you're probably your best students in both Arkansas and those other states are probably gonna take both of those tests whereas the average student would just take one in Arkansas that would be the ACT and over there that would be the SAT so that might be skewing that number dramatically Sally if there's some way we could County filter that out and and say okay these are the people who have taken both on that would probably show you what's going on this and I think that's that's what's prob probably securing that number is your best students are taking both test and we're only comparing ACT and and that's what everyone in Arkansas thank you so if you could kinda try to filter that out so and it's it's you know I'm ACT and and College Board which does as a T. there's only so much stated they've released so I don't know that we can pull that students out one thing we could do in an historic land of it's true that we do tend to score higher than a lot of states on the SAT because we have a smaller number of students you take the SAT compared to some of these other states the CDC that inverse relationship happening. Thank you thank you madam chair thank you and non college going rates is that 4 year or 2 year college that slide I will let me check national centers education statistics but I think it's both okay. And then. And then one and before I got is Senator Garner I know we've talked a lot about that that the the learning lost because a covid are there any I would like to. For us to really probably need to spend some time looking at that and then the money that has been. You know given and spend certain ways I know that's going to be future report probably but. You know I know nationwide nationwide was of lower drop verses I think ours there is a greater drop their. Nationwide at least on. Fourth grade. Eighth grades we were at 12 percent drop. Where as in fourth grade it was a 5 percent drop. So it looks like more of an eighth grade so that's kinda really like to examine that and I know that's probably going to be technology based issues and work in and lack of broadband and not being able to do homework at home and those are probably going to be I really I think we need to spend some real time examining these percentages of these drops and why it's different from fourth grade to eighth grade and what trends we might be able to see and kind of as a take away on that we M. have received in or or we've just for fairly recently received as I have thoroughly analyzed it much but the individual test score data that we will be able to look at and one of indicators we asked to come with that is we're students last year where they learning at home or the in the classroom was a hybrid so we're hoping to do some analysis to see if that says anything we've had a lot of comments on our surveys from teachers and administrators both about the difficulties that. Just learning at home even I mean a lot of it was technology related and who have broadband he didn't but there was also problems with just keeping students attentions and keeping them connected if they were learning from home. And so it will it will delve into that with this as much as we can for sure and that will probably be in the learning expectations report thank you. Senator garner thank madam chairman plows same ground but. I'm gonna get summary is it seems like in almost every single ranking from the 2001 decision to now we either stayed the same at the lower the bottom of the rankings or we improved marginally or failed marginally except for one and that's the per pupil expenditures and that we actually raise a significant amount is that correct that's that's what the dentist is a good assessment I just make a request point I think that's what happens whenever you have a lake view decision when you have just your system that tries to legislate and come here and tell us how to spend money instead of focusing on multiple issues that could address this we make it about a lake view funding decision and so what you have is a body that has to adhere to a decision by the judicial branch on funding which is in their praise your job constitution or otherwise and so we get increasing funding per student without seeing any of the results and I think that's one of the downfalls of having to have a lake view kind of structure to our funding for schools rather than this legislative body for doing what it's supposed to do and come up with ideas and decisions that are best for all school districts so want to speak on that kind of a historical anomaly that has been created where we fund the students even better than we are we actually have the same growth percentage as a national rate if you look at the map of it yet we don't see the results and all the other ones that they say was so important and just wanna make that point madam chair thank you for indulging me. Thank you. Senator Pitsch thank you madam chair I'm gonna give to use frames of reference the first I'm an engineer the second I'm a black sheep in my family because everyone else is an education. The reason the engineer is important as you just showed a 63 slides only one of which is positive news on of the spending per student US senator garner just said. The second thing you said though in another slide was the big takeaway we spent 20 years I was here in this environment I was in a legislator but I was a government affairs Personalty university when this took place. And our education system was severely broke in 2020. As an engineer if I owned businesses which I do we do the same thing for 20 years and we're still broke like your numbers indicate. We would be severely lucky if we were still in business. And like I said I'm a black sheep in the family and education but at some level what we're doing we're getting the same result we're doing trying to do different things but for 20 years we've been trying to provide adequate funding trying to prove that which ails us and we're not getting any results and I appreciate the honesty of your slides I don't think it falls on you I think it falls on us. But working at and and I understand that lake view is the law now we're living with them but at some level we've got to do something that was intended and 2020 which is to fix education and we haven't fixed the thing about education per your numbers here except more funding for students and I think even that is suspect as I travel the state as I go to my kids ball games in 2020 we didn't have magnificent temples whether it's the athletic or the school or the whatever but I don't see if we were putting money into the education curriculum we would be seeing some sort of result and I don't see the result in the tests that are coming out and at some level I think my question is as we focus on adequacy this time I think there needs to be some sort of requirement coming out of adequacy rather than here's the money spend it as you choose as here's the money but it's going to have results tied to it because at some level you can't do 20 years and not get any results that's maybe a comment but also like to challenge the madam. I think I lost my microphone that we focus on that somehow because this literally I really appreciate on page 20 the comment on the top slide the biggest take aways were 20 years under this and we've not seen any marketable and per month so. Thank you senator Pat senator I I I agree and I mean it even goes back to. I mean I think we all just need to have time to process and I do very very much appreciate the information in the science because it's not good news it's it's bad news but we gotta know where we're at and how we need to move forward and even the name of the study you know why would we even call it that mean so. You know we probably should think a little bit differently about what we're doing and why we're doing it it's not just because the law tells us we have to do it you know let's let's actually do it. And name this what our intention is. Not adequate. But exceptional. You know so it's even in the language that are using around what we're doing and so I I I'm against you know. Why not blow the lid off of it. Anyway but just something as we go forward representative Godfrey. Thank you say thank you madam chair and and I really couldn't agree more I I've been in education my whole career and I'm sat in presentations with grass just like this where we see year after year after year of disappointing data and it is incredibly frustrating and it's incredibly frustrating when that is paired with a lack of urgency around solving the problem so I am heartened by and kind of the energy in the room that I'm hearing from some of my colleagues about a need to and you know. See the reality for what it is that we that we can do better and Maste do better but also that there is a willingness to in this room to look for solutions and so my question actually kind of comes from the conversation from represent McKenzie and and Senators Elliott and their interest in looking at. Kind of what athletics does well as a an organization or as a. A paradigm even and I'm wondering it kind of and made me interested in and what the bureau can offer as far as looking at scholarly research I know you are to attend with data and and have done an incredible job and I'm consent deciding on a presenting that to us but do you have and let at a research database or are you able to look into and scholarly and academic journals about best practices especially in regards to pedagogy and school improvement and and systemic and institutional. Change and reform and that's kind of the big picture and if so if you do have access to good research articles and. Is there a way that you all can look to see are there have there been comparative analyses about. What sports does well and what education does well where and there's potential for crossover where things AT pedagogically are not a match or I think your researchers may have already looked into that and I want to make sure that as we do our work we are grounded in best practices pedagogically institutionally as far as education goes and if y'all are able to help us with that with the kind of the research side of things and it's not just us kinda saying well here's a sentiment and so we're gonna try that in school making sure that we're grounded in in best practice that that could be really helpful I'm and I you know I'm in the middle the peachy programs I'm kind of a nerd with that I'm not really articles that I would be super interested I think it could help all of us to make sure that as we are doing not work of finding solutions of seeing slide after slide after slide of the lack of progress the saying we want to find the thing that takes for adequate to exceptional that it is kind of. Rounded and that body of research that's already out there. And and that's an important part of a and and you'll see that starting next month of our reports we do start with the literature review of the research that's out there that sent times gives us ideas of analyses to do of our data that have been done elsewhere that seem to you know provide really good context but we also will be reporting on you know this is what it's been found in research to work or not to work or where to spend money so so and. But I'll have to say I've not read across any with the athletics but we can run some searches and try to find some of those articles and see if there are some some crosswalks there that that we can present will be glad to do that. I'm also no this is a follow up on that I mean if you will I went to a issue represent Godfrey and but Jones is the new football coach there at ASU and he spoke to us and at the group of us that were that were up there at the time. And. It's leadership and plugging kids in to something that they're passionate about that making sure it's an exceptional program and so and it's also about building character and work ethic and all those things and so. Maybe that gets lost in translation when you go from a football field or feel you know to a classroom I don't know that that's where I feel like. That's the difference maker and it you know I I look at exceptional schools and I look at exceptional programs within the schools what are they what do they look like it could be a band you know you have an exceptional bands I can I can name you know when you APV played Arkansas at war Memorial Stadium there are more tweets probably about the band performance between UPV and university of Arkansas than there were about the game because it was exceptional and so you have exceptional band programs at those 2 schools or could be an ROTC program hello no school that have exceptional ROTC programs that flood kids and you know and but it goes back to the focus of being the child what is the child and how we you know how how do we focus on that but I really want to be your transformative and what we're doing persons just. Repeating what we're supposed to be doing and so you know we need to think through that but but I think if you listen to coach Jones is as an example a issue and probably what Sam Pittman is doing how do we get that level of it's not curriculum but it's a it's a program that they have created that creates a culture within that organization or that school and to me you know I visited the school recently in my district they have a culture and each school has our own culture and those kids know it and it's specific to that school and its character based it's driven it's achievement not just get in and okay but what did I do better today than I did yesterday. You know for me as an individual you know I read I read in a I read a book today that was a little bit more challenging for me that is a success in the an accomplishment that is celebrated at that elementary school so on a wall you know and they pretend they've now and so it's it's it's really creating that atmosphere I think it becomes more successful and maybe that's where we need to spend some time focusing so I'm not sure if you can do those kinds of research as part of you know anything that's out there that's working you know we see those stories a lot I do we I know there's a school Louisiana you know there was a group of dads they call I think there the dad squad or something like that but no they just saw where the school was just there were fights happening all the time and it was just you know and these dads got involved and it turned the whole school rounds and the kids started participating in their scores went up I mean so there's so many to me it's really about focusing on that individual and the needs around the student but I will stop I'm going to go to represent Ladyman. Thank you manager of this real interesting discussion I'm not part of the committee I appreciate you letting me talk but it's very interesting to hear. How economic development lack of economic development in rural areas in education and what type of education and degrees hi all this is tied together and it is it is very good and very important point that economic development has a great impact on education and vice versa but you know just a couple things that this is really a statement more the question I appreciate you give me the time but when we talk about athletics and I coach for many years and and and enjoy the heck out of it. It's a lot of fun the coach in and see people kids develop but when you talk about athletics and again unlike representative or senator Pitsch I'm an engineer so the noise goes away and you look at the facts you gotta face reality so in athletics what is the goal and we have coaches in here and they know what the goal is the goal is wins right reserve 11 is wins if you do not get wins in athletics you do not have a job especially at the college level so the the goal is clear and when we talking here about all these different things what is the primary goal. And and I believe Senator Elliot L. is have the primary goal should be quality of life. Wow that should be the primary goal all these other things these measurements are secondary to reach that primary goal so we don't know what the primary goal is we're never going to get there so we have to focus on that just a couple more things and I'll be quiet but the talk about rule rule areas not developing economically and not having good schools. I believe there's a couple reasons for that one if we consolidate the schools which is good it is sufficient because we're moving these smaller schools and we get bigger schools we can offer more programs we can have better leaders. But what that does is it takes the schools out of the small towns representative right now we're talking awhile ago. 20 years ago or 15 years ago every small town Arkansas had little factory and had a school they don't have that anymore. So we see people moving especially northeast Arkansas where I live people a Jonesborough grew by 15000 people the Mississippi County and some of the surrounding areas decreased by that much so people are moving into the bigger cities because they have the amenities there that they want they have a school they have a grocery store they have a theater so that migration so. To improve the efficiency of the schools we've reduced the quality of life and will Arkansas I believe that's just my opinion so there there's other effects of that I think this was going on somehow as Senator Irvin said we we have to be able to move things back into these rural communities if we want to build these rules schools I don't know the answer to that on with anybody does but that that's what we have to do one more thing I'll be quiet but we talked about degrees advanced degrees I think that's important but I did a lot of work in Germany and I would go there and we would have meetings that would be 2 or 3 of us from the U. S. in a room or 44 countries were represented in in Germany in particular you mentioned Germany somebody that. Most of the people from Germany that were in that room or PH dis. We were talking manufacturing we were talking windmill farms and that sort of thing you know heavy in the industry. Of these people had PH dis me and the other 2 US colleagues of mine we just had master's degrees. We were talking at the same level contributing at the same level as they were so what's the difference there the difference was that they had a emphasis on getting higher degrees not for salary or anything else but just for learning. I don't know that we have that here or in the U. S. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but it was a difference in the cultures. So we have to promote that but it's just really interesting for me to sit here and listen to this discussion and I think it's going to move us forward and I appreciate that and thank you for the time mention well I left I love being a chair with you in public health so I'm glad that you're here participating because you and I work really well together but I mean to your point we need participation from the legislature you know whether they're on Education Committee or not it's really really important that we all being Gates that's one of the reasons why I wanted to develop this member survey for the legislative members. Of of our General Assembly because I want them to know how important this is and to participate you know you needed your elected to do your job be here and be engaged in so if not we will not get the right policy decisions that we need in order to move it forward so I really appreciate you representive Ladyman and I appreciate you being here and your comments I appreciate it very much Senator back on. Okay Senator Elliot last madam mentor I just wanted to just give an invitation because as as much as I think about and and and how we can do things better and our rural and urban areas I want to give a walk on any one part of Arkansas and I get a lot of people don't understand quite yet but you will what we're trying to accomplish with the art plus technology boot camps and I know a lot of people don't get it some of you have been derisive of it but that is exactly driven to the kind of thing we're just talking about how do we regrow our rural areas and still look at a place and see something we've not imagine rather than walking away from it so I just want to. Given invitation that when we meet again com and find out what we're talking about and what we're trying to do because it is one way we can have a response to a problem we're having right now I'm not saying it's perfect but I'm not content with just saying oh it's bad and there's nothing we can do. We are working on this issue through that initiative and. Please if you get a chance to come is like any other committees it's you know you get per diem and whatever it is whatever you get so you don't have to come at your own expense. The all right plus technology boot camps designed to take a look at something everywhere to help grow that state everywhere. Yes madam chair thank you. Okay there's no other questions I think great information create the presentations today I think we have a lot of thinking and processing for us to do you know I think a lot of the take aways from me why are comparisons but you know we may have created efficiencies in one area of policy but at the cost of complete decimation in another area so. That's is probably not something that we want to do as a as state policy makers but that you know that we have to think through it that way and I hope and I'm I know we have a great team that's going to help us through this process so with that I don't think I see anything else and I appreciate everybody coming in with that were adjourned.