Judiciary Committee - Senate

The representative ought to lead us in prayer and then representative Gonzalez will leaves in the plant so if you'll stamp. Ersan Vaught. We've got a couple of very important subjects today. Of the access to public defenders. Of we touched on this last at our last meeting. And. You know criminal. Justice is central to democracy to make sure that people are safe. but also to make sure that If you're accused of crime. that you have a The defense. And the we have that set up in our constitution. And the questions have been raised about how good a job we are doing that in Arkansas and the unusual. Today that were having a reporter to testify and I think because K. R. KTV FOR given permission to allow that to happen but it seems to be the best information we had was coming from that source and I appreciate the work that they've done so I'm going to ask at this point of permits McCoy news anchor K. R. K. A. R. KTV. to come forward. and we also got a Kelli ward. Tourney Kempson ward the LLC. The bill would remain standing. And if the. Warded you would go first in a dental fires of self. Of and your occupation for the record please. Okay you may be seated. And I'm good destroy what shall have the floor. I know that are you open to working with our I. T. people for on some presentation so we'll. Tell us how you want to proceed and we'll hope everything goes smoothly. Is Your Marco. There you go if you think working in TV I know that I prepare some remarks and I was hoping to go through those remarks and I also have a couple of videos from our stories that have aired since October that I think will also provide some background. Yes first good afternoon Mr chairman and centers I appreciate your invitation to be here today my name is Mitch McCoy I'm a news anchor and investigative reporter at KTRK for news and fox sixteen news here in Little Rock. For the last four months I've been investigating and reporting on public defender issues across our state in late October care case working for you team at our first investigation that was more than a month in the making. Since our investigation dozens and dozens of people have come forward and contact us to share their experiences. I am covered court documents that showing that shows several people who were denied a public defender in Polk County District Court. These are people who the state later told me should have received representation. In one affidavit of indigency a man told the court he had several children a family credit card maxed out with plans to attend you a little rock he was denied a public defender. I found people who reported being unemployed or barely making minimum wage with children at home denied a public defender. I learned a man collecting disability was also denied a public defender. I highlighted many of these cases in our first working for you investigation that aired in late October I provided a copy of that broadcast to the committee today and Mr chairman if we could play that for city. Installation of. And so that's it right But the question is is not correct. Some are cans and struggling to pay their bills denied a public defender in a system designed to appoint anyone working for you is spent weeks diving into documents and found some people barely making minimum wage others unemployed and incoming college students were all denied today care K. is asking why our mission court working feeling covering numbers top state officials say they didn't know about the album Laura hello we don't know the misdemeanor charges those individuals were facing but state records obtained by working for you reveal the public defender handled forty eight cases over nine years in district courts across Polk County. Once you're in the system normally ever get out the judicial process everybody stands out here can be confusing for these tiles like the maze anyone up over here on this side outside Polk County District Court and you come out that way that stat sorry later on that right. Right over here a line Denny Jody says he waited more than two hours and on misdemeanor marijuana charges records show he is one of six thousand Polk County District Court cases in twenty twenty is of all drug career I want to be a police officer before the started duty claims that we belong to his friend and thought it be a slap on the rest for say money and everything get a lawyer just go into the plea guilty well he's like well this is gonna be jail time a large file he says he could not afford a private attorney so we filed an affidavit of indigency that formally requested a public defender it shows the ACT two hundred forty dollars cash and fifty is checking account monthly expenses begin with ranted three hundred dollars a hundred fifteen food and forty Bucks and transportation he also has a two year old little girl let is hourly job pays twelve dollars and fifty cents an hour little or granted paycheck County District Court judge down for him on the bench since two thousand one did not guilty a public defender somebody Arkansas you messed up your that person was. It's like the most of this state law defines a person who may need a public defender or someone in substantial financial hardship for with the person's monthly expenses are their income the seriousness of the charges they're facing and any other financial obligations the list goes on and on but only a judge can appointed a public defender we took Dhoni's affidavit to correct parish. He's the executive director of the Arkansas Public defenders Commission also a former prosecutor his opinion your estimate this is percentile to a public defender right Yes don't is not the only one there are several other affidavits we found from people unemployed incoming college student with three children and a mom of two all denied there says he would have expected them to be approved I would expect district courts handle mostly misdemeanor criminal cases eleven to twenty twelve and twenty twenty state records show the public defender handle forty eight cases in Polk County other county similar to a size like Crawford working for you found the court approved fifty two hundred cases to the public defender Crittenden county twenty six hundred added Lonoke County three thousand five hundred and sixty three during the same nine years I need to get a rule the grass all were else might have five or six per year less than once a month David camp practices law in Arkansas you have to say that some percentage of these people that went through District Court were innocent and were did not enters and wrongfully convicted judge born in a written statement says he appointed a public defender in three cases the week of October fourth he goes on to say what if the defendant tells me that he is employed I do not normally appoint the public defender end quote I went to a full count trying to ask more questions Clark turned me away saying that judge would only communicate with me via email so I sent a message asking how public defender appointments could be settled sharply different from other counties his size injection force reply he says quote most people that come to District Court may be as many as ninety five percent pleads guilty they want their cases to be over with and they do not ask for attorney Ford says he always tries to make the right decision about public defender appointments that I could not pay he didn't have any money he was unemployed. And he was on disability he had his hearing impaired work practices law took on the case pro bono after intellectually disabled man facing harassment charges add up to one year in jail she says was denied a public defender by joint form my official client would and hang around downtown Russellville everybody knew Leding and and he had a dog and that he took everywhere with him and he would actually push the dog in the stroller wars client died before it could go to court and there's just no way that he could walk through that process by himself see what this is and should suffer because of a judge's allowed ran into right to score range unconstitutionally for so long Kim says the state needs to step in and figure out why this is happening in a case like this where you have. No constitutional violation occurring routinely consistently that in times of the S. you brought the issue to me the public defender's conditions as it's already sent notice to staff across Arkansas I want to know. Why doesn't every home in the US have solar panels the number one reason is not about some light or weather or even politics. What's it look like you're District Court. Are we getting close may make you get a lawyer makes a lawyer money hand coming out there and and it didn't bother state that makes you that money. It's all it's all part part of a systematic duty gives his stamp of approval for the state to figure out why he was denied. It's important to remember the public defender is only available if jail time is a sentencing option I found one public records showing judge born it is twenty or stand on the bench has been recommended at least once it was back in twenty fourteen twenty donated to a political campaign we have judge boards full statement including a statement from the ACLU of Arkansas they're already sounding off on K. R. K. dot com and. I think that gives a pretty good background to some of the issues that we uncovered in our first story but after our first story I found another case a teacher her name is Kelly young Franklin she was receiving governmental assistance at the time she was denied a public defender she explained to me after a meeting to review the charges against her the city attorney urged the court to dismiss the charges against her the judge denied that request and the trial was held. She was forced to represent herself and was found guilty. She tells me that she was sentenced to two days in jail thankfully she only had to serve a few hours of that jail sentence. To this day she believes she was wrongfully convicted that story aired in November and that has also been provided to the committee. Okay from the beginning that are intent on payment and that one day this will this will happen but one day somebody was going to realize what he was doing court advocacy judge under investigation after state records show public defenders are not being appointed in his court good evening thanks for joining us tonight I'm Laura Monteverdi leading up all closely care K. first brought you this last week you can see the number of different eight different issues from the counties with similar population new tonight one woman tells our mission because that she was denied a public defender and forced to represent herself at trial. Her name is Kelly young frankly she to this state believe she was wrongfully convicted tonight the city attorney says he asked the judge to dismiss your case but just like in Franklin that too was denied so should have been able to qualify for a public defender Kelly young Franklin is likely correct because of the governmental assistance she'd been receiving but she says Polk County District Court judge don Bourne back in twenty eighteen told her to get a job instead but he told me was that I was able bodied and basically saying because I could work at. Franklin tells me she did not have a job because she been pursuing a master's degree so what led up to all that. Young Franklin tells me Russellville police arrested her after calling nine one one to report her stolen phone painting inside the house but she says the officers did not talk with her when they arrived and went out to the home I get out of the car and began filming them and I believe that this upset them because the next thing I know that police officers arresting me per charges obstruction of governmental operations a disorderly conduct charges even city attorney Trey Smith confirmed Monday that quote I have decided to dismiss as a warning talk to the officer who brought the citation and got his approval to dismiss as a warning and then made the motion when the case was called and the judge denied the request. And to prepare for trial myself I do have that evidence Nine one one calls and everything that I thought I should do and I was unable to present a at any of that when I work out to court working for you found several affidavits from people some claiming to barely make minimum wage another unemployed alter not a public defender by judge don Bourne. Point of order. In twenty eighteen young Franklin which will Russellville city council meeting to be heard. What was told by the then mayor Randy Horton we have no disciplinary jurisdiction over District Court once or this is not the proper venue for your complaint she says judge board found her guilty of the charges and sentenced her to forty eight hours in jail Kelly do you think you were wrongfully convicted. Because you did not have appropriate council definitely Kelly young frankly place to graduate in may with her master's the losses it judges opposed to consider financial obligations to the seriousness of the charges before pointing the public defender the Arkansas judicial discipline and disability commission announced last week following our investigation it has launched its own investigation into Josh born back to you. Thank you we. So in my investigations I've learned that the Arkansas Public defenders Commission is not notified when a judge deny someone a public defender. The people think denied is denied and as you heard Greg parish question in our first story is no the right answer we have been looking into other areas of Arkansas as well that appears to show lower public defender appointments compared to other counties with a similar population finding instances of people being denied as difficult as most district courts here in Arkansas they're not required to transcribe it is said in court. As you saw on our story the judge sent a written statement before broadcast he expressed many that many people want to plead guilty he said that he typically does not appoint the public defender if someone is employed and he always tries to make the right decision. There are aspects of our investigation that continue to this very moment. These stories have not aired yet because our job is to hold the powerful accountable and protect our community. And because I'm here before you today. I'm prepared to share with the committee a little bit of what we've uncovered. Right now if you are rested in a larger County let's see Pulaski. You have a head start in Arkansas's justice system. You'll have a public defender by your side during your bond hearing they will be your voice as the judge decides if you get released or what your bond amount will be. But if you live in a smaller County let's say Dallas County or let's say Grant County. Or another smaller county in Arkansas. A public defender is not present during that first bond hearing appearance. And you do not have that same representation as if you were arrested in Pulaski. For example take John Smith. No prior convictions but John is arrested for theft of property. If you are an Pulaski County the public defender can speak for John shows ties to the community and while lower bond makes sense for John. But if you're in Dallas County here to show a county or Washington County a smaller County. That same John may not know how to represent himself which means that he may have a higher bond in stay in jail several days longer. In journalism I believe it's not our job to give you our opinion were simply information collectors we try to shine light on people's problems dig for information and do it is fairly as possible. I hope that I was able to accomplish that today I want to express my sincere appreciation for today's invitation and the opportunity to share with you more about our working for you reporting. Thank you Senator Garner. Thank you in the example used to Polk County issue in a public defenders is that compared to other counties was that just for District Court orders for all courts involved in terms of the story we were just looking at district courts and that number was the. Known. From two thousand twelve two thousand twenty public defenders assigned in that county but that one judge or the county as a whole. It in this instance we were looking at counties and this particular judge is the judge for the entire county okay. All right the second question your point you just made their the end about Washoe county Dallas County offset Indos arraignment before and there has been a public defender there as people pleaded or bonded or other things so what exactly are you speaking of as far as public defenders not being available in smaller counties when I've seen it counters of evidence within the last few months what exactly is your point on that. we have found that there are several small counties in again This Is before our story. That we're working on heirs we're still looking at other counties based off of what we have been able to find is that there are smaller other smaller counties that do not have a public defender president during bond hearings when judges deciding the bond. Okay all. I can only speak directly that that I've been in those counties and have seen something or there has been public defenders there may be great parents to speak about why Pulaski County has that available in other counties doesn't if that's true as far as he knows. Thank you Mr the. Was of. You. While you were showing us this video of the story it showed. The. The. This was. What County. We were using Polk County pope POP yes Sir okay of compared to other counties of. Wars or these counties of a similar size yes Sir okay of. And the same top court. Yes Sir so of this number was unusual for a District Court of that size them. From from all of the research that we have gathered that is correct to was just over forty eight cases nine years just over five. Yes Sir VOL cases with a public defender the year of. How did this come to your attention. We are always digging for information and so I was told through of the a source that this may be an issue and to look into it. I'm going to have a question for Mr referred to because of this report the report of. On. Public defenders must go somewhere and I'm curious as to what this description and come to our attention of and this last story I don't know I have a question I found interesting we can't adjudicate it we don't have the facts but I found it especially interesting because our our former colleague of the late representative Walker I don't think he ended up being arrested he was almost arrested for filming an incident Where the police were involved and Ended up I think not being arrested and so I found that. Interesting of again that is a lot depends on exactly what you do in that situation of course in in I've come I've come to find and learn through various instances and through the we only provided two examples It of of stories that we've done we've done a handful of them since we first at our store in October. Out of all of the people that I've talked with they've always had to call the court to find out what the status was of their affidavit to find out if they were going to get a public defender or not. And. When they're told that they have been denied. Many of these individuals I don't know what to do next. They don't know if denied is denied if there's an opportunity to appeal many of them just go with it and they're forced to hire a private attorney. Some of them did and Kelly on Franklin's case she didn't have the money she was receiving governmental help she was barely making ends meet and she was denied that that public defender. Wait we have heard from some is that there is no checks and balances when it comes to a judge deciding if you are indigent or not and that has been expressed really more recently And and I guess me understanding it as well and a clear sense when it comes to the balance of power in a court room and interest in government in general when it comes to your affidavit of indigency because I think there's a another. Side of that I mean have as a I've expressed before the former quorum court member that was one of the expenses we hated the worst we had no control over of and on the other end of that I've heard of judges and when I say heard of I know it to be true that decide anybody wants a public defender line up over here which and the and there are As You expressed just because somebody's says they want a public defender doesn't necessarily mean. That they can't pay of a private attorney so that there is that question I think it sounds like there's some abuse here of where people really need a public defender don't have one and that's a terrible thing and then we may have some abuse on the other side where the people are being forced to pay of for a public defender which is not really the subject today and where they shouldn't the people shouldn't have to be if if someone has the means to pay to pay for them selves So we have some other people lined up here so. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you thank you Mr chairman thank you made for this report thank you senator I'm sure you probably where is most people are injured serving Judiciary the first date amendment to the constitution are there to guarantee our each and. Of. The protection of the rights. Are you aware that yesterday amendments yes Sir. And the purpose of public defenders are they exist to guarantee that especially for those who do not have the financial means they exist to make sure those people have their fundamental rights as is for senate for trial is concerned to be protected along with their due process along with due process. Are you saying that this did not happen in Polk County. From the stories that we've heard from Kelly young Franklin. And and I can only be her voice today. And and many of the others as well but that would appear to be cell yes. We we have a. Over three million people in the state of Arkansas. Two two thousand square miles. From the information that I've looked up that's put one public we have one public defender. Four hundred nineteen thousand people. Hundred twenty thousand. Does that seem a little out of. Quack to you. For one public defender for a hundred twenty thousand people. You know I I I wouldn't want to elaborate on that I think that that is you know the deed job for lawmakers and and. Being able to hear the instances in the stories behind some of the individuals being denied a public defender and then ultimately maybe if there is something the state can do to to help protect these people. The but the way you present the story it sounded like that Polk County was a very unique situation compared to the rest of the state in regard to denying a public defender to individuals. There are. A a couple other counties that is it's on my radar that we're looking into. It has proven to be a little bit more difficult because district court's. They don't transcribe what's sad. So it's hard to in many cases proof what is being said or what is happened. In this investigation is ongoing yes Sir. And you can't there's nothing else you can report on this investigation there are it. From from the other counties where it would appear that there are smaller R. or fewer public defenders being appointed compared to other counties with a similar population that we are looking at and we are. Trying to collect as much information as possible. There is also the story about. Public defenders at bond hearings. And them being present specifically here in Pulaski County but not being present in other counties during bond hearings do you collect any information from northwest Arkansas northeast Arkansas we have. We have a public defender appointment numbers For the entire state by county. And we got it out from the public defender's Commission can you tell us how those numbers in those areas relate to want to. In public out here are the ones in some of the smaller southern counties I would I would have I don't have that with me that's back in back in my office but we do have it broken down there are a few counties that I want to say that are more southern and northeast That has our eyes. Thank you Mr. Senator Garner. Thank you as may be from this war or Mr Parrish so I'm assuming that the power to authorize a public defender rests solely with the judge is that a statutory. Requirements is that under Amendment eighty that the judicial branch is able to have this power is it. If we decide to do something about this it seems to me that if it's Amendment eighty issue the court would step in and stop us from even having a say in this as legislators so the you know the the the power that's vesting that in the judge's. Since I believe. That and you Mr Parrish may be able to to elaborate but I believe it's by statute the statute that defines indigency and the process for appointing a public defender sets out the criteria that the judge is supposed to look at. To make that I'd be interested to know that what gives the authority to the judges to be the sole describer of this I guess the way to say it that's in question had Mr. And if if I may um blast session legislative session there was a. Updated legislation that passed up regarding what defines indigency and it was if if memory serves it was a law that would help give a better guide to. Determining if somebody qualifies for a public defender yeah it had to do with financials and some other than a member committee Judiciary and as interesting you know we can define it but if it's not by statute if there's some other power I'd like to know where that powers vested is little bit different because even we defined in a certain way a judge as you well know can to say well this doesn't meet this requirement or not as low so thank you Sir. Yes and I think the you know the question you raise Senator Garner. No because back to then does the the courts recognize authority. By statute or do they come back and say as part of the rule making authority. And the I know I never mind the starting that debate of I think the people always have the right to seven statute what needs to be done then the courts can slap your hand until as otherwise until the point that the people say well we need to have another constitutional amendment and make it clear that the people can. Of overruled. Of and speak for the people of. The. The be glad to have that debate we may need to have people someone from the courts and to to explain that to us. especially if it's not getting done the of miss ward you have a major presentation at but when a I think this question would be for you and then maybe perhaps later for Mr Parris The only was it Machon was that her name. Yes Sir of in that situation and again since we don't know what happened. But we do know. We saw on the video that the city attorney. I was not going to push this of it appears that an attorney public defender or otherwise would not have had to do much. In her defense. That that's correct if if this the city was not wanting to go forward with the case an attorney representing miss young Franklin could have taken steps to help that along to make sure that was dismissed right. Thank you. All right I see no other questions ms ward of are you ready. Yes I am. Good afternoon Senators thank you for allowing me to speak today I just want to tell you a little bit about how I got to be here after the first eighteen years of my legal career I was a deputy prosecuting attorney I handled and every type of criminal case that we have from traffic and fences two capital murders and in two thousand nineteen I decided to leave the prosecuting attorney's office and I began a career in private practice and when I did that being a career prosecutor people were a little shocked at my family my friends and everyone that I've worked with and the one question I got was how is it on the other side and is it difficult and to go from being a career prosecutor to representing criminal defendants and one thing I always told them was as a deputy prosecutor at work for Larry Gigli one thing that I learned very early in my career is that our goal was not to win cases but to ensure that justice was done and also to ensure that their constitutional rights of the citizens of Arkansas were protected and that the judicial process was followed and so as a criminal defense attorney those same tenants came into play they were first and foremost when I was representing my clients and so it although I found them to be very different jobs they have a lot of different duties that was always first and foremost in my mind and in representing my clients so with that in mind I received a phone call in April of twenty twenty one from a man and Russellville Arkansas he M. was a business owner and he said that he had a friend who his name was Kelly Sorenson and. Is Your Sorenson was intellectually disabled and he was hearing impaired is the the the person I talked about in the interview and that he had been arrested because he had dispute the allegation was that he had dispute with someone on the street in Russellville where he would hang out he would push his dog around in the stroller and and he had a verbal dispute there was no violence no one was injured it was just words and he was arrested and he was facing a charge of harassment which carried up to one year in jail Mr Sorenson and needed help doing things like going to the doctor he's on disability this friend of his would provide and food from time to time and he had tried to get appointed an attorney in Polk County District Court and was not able to get a public defender and so somehow they made their way to me I still I'm not sure exactly how they found me but they they call my office and I'm being someone who at that time I really only practice in Pulaski County some and selling line at I thought well this is a misunderstanding there's no way you you should qualify there's no way you wouldn't be as someone who could have an attorney appointed and I put outs as let me figure it out the trial was in a week from when they called me I said I I I don't have I don't know if I can be there on that date but let me put some calls out and see if I can figure out what the miscommunication was and then I talk to other colleagues of mine in that area and I found that getting appointed a public defender in Polk County District Court I was a very high bar and that it wasn't it didn't happen very often and that in fact you know Mr Sorenson that you was probably not going to be appointed an attorney and so at that point I decided that I would just go ahead represented pro bono and because. As there was no way and someone like my client could represent himself and that would be anything close to justice. during the and the course of the case actually unfortunately was very short Mr Sorensen passed away in June prior to his court date and so that was my first experience sort of outside Pulaski County in these and maybe areas where people didn't have access to public defenders like I was used to seeing in Pulaski and try to fast forward to late June July I took a job and as a part time public defender in Faulkner County and then I was working and for Mr Lynn Clemens and also great parish and I was told that there was a little bit of the case back up because of covid and that you know so I might have a little bit more cases than usual and this was part time this was designed to be twenty hours a week I still have my private practice that I was trying to maintain but I thought you know I've been doing criminal law for almost twenty years I can jump in I can take care of these cases I can take care of this backlog and it's not going to be an issue well what I found I had one over a hundred cases at a sign to me as a part time public defender what I found was it was a lot more difficult than I thought it was going to be to keep up and pretty soon I learned that I couldn't I couldn't do it I was struggling to maintain my private practice and showing up for court in Faulkner County almost daily and waiting for court appearances you know doing most of the things for the cases myself as part time attorney and and so I ended up having to leave that position because I wasn't able to keep up with that I got some of the numbers from from my time there and like when I left I had a hot one hundred in two cases those are cases not necessarily defendant some defendants have multiple. Aces that I was handling and During that eight week period it was only eight weeks I was able to close or to either dispose by police I think they're all please a twenty seven cases so that was a good start but they just they just kept coming and so I had to leave that position I think that was also important in my experience in dealing with the other side as a criminal defense attorney and knowing and kind of you know you always think oh well I see it in a public defenders at that it looks like it's so easy I'm sure they thought the same about me as a prosecutor but when you get to that point and you learn all the other things that go on behind the scenes it's it's it's quite a bit so that was one thing I want to mention today is that and I think in that position that I was in was not and it was more it it could be done as a full time position but as part time it was it was not doable for me and some of the people are representative told me that I was to and I could see by the court docket I was there six attorney there six attorney that handled their case so if you think about that you think about every time a new attorney comes in the case has to be continued or and there's a delay while the new attorney gets acquainted with the case may be a hearing has to be moved every time so I just wanted to kind of bring that up and and shine light on that as well as my experience and input County District Court. Senator Garner. Thank you for the second question Avenue with pay as a big issue we're here right now about do we have no public defenders have been some back and forth media coverage. You are a part time public defender. What was your average compensation for that compared to what you're private practice and be so you do a criminal defense was it compared board you paid substantially less after trying to figure out. The public defender part of it as a part time employee versus full time kind of what. How did that work as far as the pay went for you directly I guess to what is said. And I'm not sure exactly are you say what was the pay for the part time job yes ma'am I believe it was like twenty nine thousand dollars a year eleven you can aspen Mr Parrish a probably know that better during my short time I didn't and. You know is it was very it was a week so but I believe it was twenty nine to twenty eight or twenty nine thousand dollars as the salary per you basically did for two months at thirty thousand which is the equivalent of twenty hours of work per week is what the expectation was correct that's correct okay I just wanna know that former spirituous up there thank you ma'am you. Is twenty hours a week what you did. no it ended up being more than that because of cases of court appearances you know you would go to court as for court you my how I may have six or six cases filed cases on the court's docket and but you know after sitting through other cases I might be there from nine till five o'clock Sundays at nine to one and I was also driving back and forth from Little Rock and in addition to that I would and you have to have client meetings and then try to track down witnesses and have jail conferences those sorts of things and that that's what alternately I had to leave the positions I just couldn't I couldn't do it as a part time. So would you can you do you have any kind of estimate of or could you estimate of how many hours it was taking. I don't know that I could give an accurate estimate but I will say that it was it I could have been told full time forty hours and I would have plenty of stuff to do during that time. Of course the twenty hours at twenty nine would require with could it be equivalent to. Of forty hours of fifty eight. So okay. I don't see any other questions of. I'm if you two would stay in case we have other questions of the director of. Arish. Could you come up because of I think it's obvious we have some questions for you. No appreciate. So if you could stay here before. The. because we we may have some more questions for the two of you wall. Some questions could come up if you don't mind staying. she know the drill of heel remain standing just a moment and. Ternate Marcone. And tell us your name and your. Position a great parishes active Director of Arkansas Public fend Commission thank you may be seated. Senator Garner. Thank a question Greg first to the question as earlier is this statutory power given to this judge's or is is a constitutional separation power issue thank you for supporting it is statutorily senator and if I may have a little leeway I'll try to explain a little bit of the difference. for purposes of what we're talking about with Polk County in other courts there is a difference between a prompt judicial parents what we call to referred to as the first appearance so we call it in south Arkansas. northwest Arkansas the column eight point one hearings. What that is that's an appearance that typically occurs should be occurring within seventy two hours of arrest for someone who is detained. And the purpose of that being is to advise the defendant of his or her constitutional rights the charges to set bond. And several years ago. Let me back up. When I was the manager and south Arkansas six counties. Those are commonly done in the judge's office. I mean you're calling a judge when are you available and of course we're not third public defenders even defense attorneys are not there on this you hired somebody. L.. In south Arkansas AT during the first appearances a lot of the times the judges would address whether or not a person was injured. Then I get to other locations in the state. Where they have a point one hearings. But they do not address indigency and the appointment of counsel. Which I thought was improper because a lot of these jurisdictions. the prosecuting. Bust by rule the prosecutor has sixty days in which to file a criminal charge. Or the court considered an old or release. If that defendant is not appointed. An attorney at the eight point one. He or she could be sitting in jail for fifty nine days or longer. Before council's even addressed. And of course I don't have to tell you what you lose during that period of time. So we went in. To the dismay of some of my public defenders but we went in and had rule eight point one eight point two changed and the purpose for having it changed as I wanted judges to address indigency employment of counsel at the first appearance the eight point one hearing. The purpose being he hasn't and so my public defender says you're going to kill us we're going to be overloaded. Which my response was you're going to have the same cases in thirty days. Sitting in jail for the thirty days now they've lost their house their car their job talking those what else. So we have the rule change. And. That's the first appearance now I cannot tell you that. And I and I will be real careful how I say this because I don't want to be interpreted that I'm the pointing the finger at anybody whatsoever. But. Some of this is still not happening at the eight point one hearing it is is found and eight point one eight point two as to the point of council that's the first appearance don't understand at that stage the prosecutor in all likelihood has the missing the file. Is no knowledge of anything this is just law enforcement take a person in front of a judge. After that occurs. Law enforcement will Director filed the prosecutor who will make the appropriate charging decision thus the filing of a felony information. shareholders in the court room I practiced in that jurisdiction I would tell you and and northwest Arkansas they have a point one hearings and arraignments on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays. They point ones are for the people who were arrested like the day before. Or over the weekend. Charges have not been formally filed. But they're detained. They bring them out the dress the charges. is the public defender there yes but they're there for the arrangements the following right after that with the prosecutor has filed the charges can review their are you saying that. At that time the public defender isn't really there to represent those people doing those first appearances because they're just make a decision whether they're they're not they're in their official capacity there there for the arrangements that happened later that's correct if there's someone there with a bond issue that you know of that has to be addressed we'll do that a lot of times you'll get someone with the. Health condition mental health condition or whatever that you need something else they will step in the sheriff's office will let us know. But when you get to the arrangement. You have a formal filing by a prosecutor with the C. R. number you know the charges. in a set that stage that the court is addressing indigency. And appointing an attorney. I've seen some locations throughout the state. Word like the chair said because I've been in those courtrooms anybody who wants to talk to the public defender lined up over here. No questions asked ended six. On my way to fail yesterday I received a phone call. The. My mother was complaining that we were not appointed and we should have been. Well what happened is that descendant. Said he wanted retain an attorney so the judge did not appoint however. Because he was in jail. The public defender was still expected to talk to him. And as a result the public defender filed. A motion for bond reduction which was granted. And so I'm calling my manager and I'm saying how do we get from not appointed. The following pleadings. The response was because he was in jail we were expected to talk to all. The statute this goes to your other question talks about the affidavit of indigency and it's mandatory it's not permissive this found in sixteen eighty seven to thirteen. Lowercase eighty two capital B. which states. The court shall not. Appoint an attorney prior to review of the submitted certificate of indigency was a statue unit on my reading to me sir sixteen dash eighty seven. Destin thirteen. Lowercase eighty. Two. Capital B.. Tell as as was mentioned earlier we did come in the last biennial. And address some of the indigency stuff and and this is where it gets real complicated for us. Yeah I've heard members say that we are representing people. That probably could hire an attorney. I suspect that's a. And then I then I'm I've got courts who need cases moved. But the defendant does not have an attorney. And by statute then we are charged. With reporting anybody. Who is submitted a fraudulent affidavit. But then we're left that to fill out the affidavit for the defendant and after my people ethically you cannot do that. Because if we determine. That defended as miss represented something then we've got a surrender our own client. Court. Their other obligations on the certificate of indigency which require that person and this is statutorily as well to be notified that his or her tax return could be seized. for purposes of the user free. And or attorney's fee which a court may assess. So we're trying to balance between. Following the judge's direction to try to move cases. And it's real hard if you're from judge every day to say judge you're not following the law and we're not doing that. Until you do it because we're in there every day and we're gonna move cases. But that is the law. And so. I hope of answers questions Senator yes Sir I read that somebody else has questions I might come back in later but are recognized now said you Mr chairman go ahead. So miss ward's earlier I believe spoke to how much she made as a part time public defender the quick math on that without taxes everything's roughly thirty dollars an hour soon you work fifty two weeks for twenty hours. What is the average cost. Of a. Public defender I know they have different degrees of experience so you might get more money that way that you have to pay out I guess the way to say once you cover you can retirement income taxes the actual salary to and what's kind of the base number you would say the average pay per hour is for an attorney for public finished use me. That would be determined upon that person's experience I don't know I'm from all across the board I know that I understand experiences is never will be exactly right I'm just is it fifty dollars now where the state typically pays a hundred dollars an hour well I can I can tell you at a GS thirteen if I bring and that I can do the math real quick if I bring an attorney or a GS thirteen that comes in at part time. Thirty six thousand. I have director's discretion that's upper scale if I just brought a brand new augmented GS thirteen you take thirty six thank five thirty seven thousand divide that by a thousand forty hours. And you'll get in you'll get an hourly rate I guess my question is do you have any additional costs on top of that that you have to pay out is just purely salary you pay any kind of major retirement or anything else that comes up that's and I'm not in my budget started so no to answer your question I do not this is we pay a salary and that's it okay. Interest and I was just got their eyes on the problem of public defenders if you could somehow. Qualify like you do whenever there's a conflict of interest private attorneys to pick up certain cases if we could change the law to do that but if it's only thirty dollars an hour managing many private sector attorneys would be picking up the cases outside of on the rare I think it let me just be clear senator I do have the authority okay. To a point outside attorneys by statute or there's conflicts and there's no one else there's no benefits they're not employees. No retirement or insurance for juvenile court misdemeanor court we're talking forty five dollars an hour. For regular felonies or talking seventy dollars an hour. And. That's cheap. They know they're taking a below market and they're doing it as a service to the bar and that's that's road conspicuously nat is if you could somehow. Change I know you have the authority to have conflict of interest if you can make it more broader power through either statutory injured otherwise could you get private sector turns you don't have to be part time because they can't commit that much time to be a part time that prosecutors could you do it where they could take it at whole certain cases may relieve it I agree seventy five dollars is extremely discounted rate but just as a policy change with that be viable and I thought and I thought about that and here's the problem that comes with that and that's why I think this is all one bundle. I'm limited on what I can put Grant Park lesson comp. and so if if let's say I don't negotiate with attorney a to take a certain number of cases at an hourly rate that's. Seventy dollars a month. The my public defender comes to me who's making twenty nine dollars an hour and says wait a minute I don't need insurance I want that. Well yes what you can't because you've been a state employee and you have to wait twelve months to become a vendor. And you can't take that job. So then I ran into that your recent. Okay thank you Mr chairman Dr. Order of the director. Are there guidelines that you know of of. That the courts have or that you have as to individually. Mr those and working on it this past session if the guidelines are defined by statute sixteen dash eighty seven dash tool one which defines what an indigent person is. And it also defines substantial financial hardship Richards some of the requirements of in the affidavit that the court reviews. And that's in sixteen eighty seven to thirteen as well. And what the court is to consider the statute requires an affidavit of indigency requires. that'd be under penalty of perjury that I'm reading from statute that become a permanent part of the record. that it requires notice to the defendant of certain things. Potential perjury intercept a tax returns. And it requires the court to make a determination as to individuals. Now that's one of them is but it also has other things that the court may consider and we change this the last session because I had a judge we just want to be able to appoint a straight red body and us figure out if they were indigent. Well that was a nightmare so. We added insert language that you know if you're if you receive a FDC if you or. Certain governmental guidelines that you only get if you're below the poverty level already take that consideration. But there's other things that you can consider even if somebody's working and has a good job what was the nature of the charge. Is it theft is a martyr. Is that you on your bond reduction or you're not. There's a multitude of things what's you know what's the financial condition of the defendant and there's there's this perception that if a defendant makes bond this is what I was told yesterday if a defendant makes bond he or she is not entitled to an appointment of an attorney. And I like to tell everybody I know Bill Gates can come in here and bond everybody out across the state of Arkansas for equals two but he has no obligation. To provide an attorney to that person. So what you see a lot of times it's families making that bond. For the defendant. But you got a look at the financial status of the defendant not the family it's an interesting thought but you said that it was in. Laul the guidelines as to ended six can use of. US simple for what the law says. sure and I'm looking at sixteen ninety seven. Two thirteen. Which talks about prior to of an attorney being appointed required affidavit. And and number four says if the court does not find the person indigent after preliminary review of the person's certificate of indigency the court shall then evaluate if the person qualifies as an indigent using the following factors the seriousness of the charges being faced. Persons monthly expenses. Local private counsel rates. The person's income or available funds from any other source including public assistance container to the circuit yes Sir does it. Does the law spell out any of those numbers. Not in this part the look go back to the federal poverty guidelines which we refer to in the other part. And and how I like to explain the is this. If one of my kids. Was charged with the W.. Sure I've got the money I can go hire him or her attorney. Thank you bye could pay that retainer not be looking somewhere depending upon where there's an accident involved or not. I would think a minimum twenty five hundred dollar retainer. If my kid was charge that's an unclassified misdemeanor. What would be the retainer my child was charged with DWI. And manslaughter because someone was killed in that raid. They were talking open big difference because overall if you're talking about having a proper cancel that are the rates of three hundred dollars an hour roughly. The lawyer would probably want to retain or somewhere between ten and twenty thousand dollars. and. Most people. Don't have that cast readily available to go get and how the retirement and more seriously if it gets much more than that. then you start talking about retainers that are just. Unconscionable. And that's why we created a capital murder case I mean I've been in private practice before under water an adequate retainer is. And that was a small community. But I'm not touching a felony. As a private attorney retained for less than twenty five hundred dollar retainer. And if it's a higher grade felony it's going to be much more than that. And the and the reason I say that is this. As I've told this committee I've kept a couple cases myself. I had a case of Martin three weeks ago just an appearance one case. I got there at nine o'clock that morning I walked out of two thirty and there was nothing extravagant normal about that case whatsoever nothing. A private attorney doesn't have that time spent in a client doesn't have that money to pay for those hours sitting in court waiting on your term. The. DO you brought this up. And. Miss ward you brought this up. And as a businessman. There's nothing used to be doctors appointments. When I was a younger man. Going to a doctor's appointment when I had appointment at nine o'clock in the Senate Dr till eleven. Drove me insane no that doesn't happen anymore somehow the doctors fix that. And I going at eleven AM in eleven ten. But are going to court at eight. And I'm. And I'll be you know in my traffic ticket will be heard it to. Is that really necessary. I can comment on that in some instances yes I mean we're now in a virtual society what we're in a virtual society now as far as court appearances which means coordinating with the jail get somebody from a camera got all these people that are backed up going in front of the camera they're off premises the attorneys or another place the judges in the court room. it's really easy for a client to say I need to ask my attorney something. We'll hold on a second we got to stop because we're not beside each other like this. And it's a legal question and is privileged so we just can't ask it in front of the cameras and everything. and it's just with where we are now the delays were for covid. The code is magnified everything just like every other aspect of life I thank I think if I go the lan Muskan Bill Gates. And to three other businessmen there they would give me completely different from that. They would say oh sure we can do it more efficiently. Miss ward. And I think it's hello A. each court runs their docket and some courts are different that you generally what I've experienced is still have a morning time docket said they'll and they'll decide a certain number of cases need to be placed on that that docket at the same time nine eight thirty AM and then they'll have maybe an afternoon time docket and how they determine how many to put I do not I'm not privy to that information this is not our subject today this pet peeve in a note since we're Judiciary we have courts Watson so. the a back to well what we're talking about of. There's guidelines in the law they don't sound like they're very. So the Saint of because I'm but obviously they're not line up over here. Of. And because I'm trying to find out if what I'm trying to find out the director is if the judges have something. To go because you know I come back. Two training issues I come back to the judges have something. But because I don't want to pick on a judge. Of the. And do the judges have something. To go by. Whether it be a judge over here that's not allowing almost anybody to have a public defender or a judge over here this wouldn't have everybody have a public defender I come back to the system and say. What are we doing to make sure that judges. No. Because we have a responsibility to make sure that the right people get public defenders. And the the and also the the wrong people don't get public defenders no one that will get right every time but as close to as possible that that we do that and the. And one the most valuable trainings I ever want to they told me and management the Jesse James test and if I happen to have an employee that's continually messing up the the the Jesse James test pretended virtually in your mind that you take a forty five and put it to their head and say now can you do it and if they can't do it then they don't know how to do it of and so the question becomes the do they know and so I you know as you know. All you have to do to be a judges be elected so of. The do it do we have the that's what I was asking do we have those guidelines or or we. In our in our training. Is it out there here's. It It here's what you should be doing here switched here's between here and here. And because then Mister McCoy what wouldn't have to be. Paul and we would have people going to jail that shouldn't be who did have a public defender or or the people paying so hopefully. So I'm just that that she she seems to be one possible answer but you said something. that really intrigued me Greg and I want to be sure I got that right did you say that by public defenders are supposedly. Supposed to have to report. That their clients are indigent if they're not. Hey let me clarify Center if by statute if we are pointing to locate by statute by statute that scenes again not an attorney. Okay that seems to be a real conflict of interest what to do or not if if you're my attorney. Right. You're my attorney I'm trusting you. With my interest and your report No me. For breaking any law. How's that how's it not a huge conflict well and let me clarify let's for instance let's take let's say I was appointed to a case today by judge that I receive notification. And I met with my client two three times whatever but during the course of my representation of come to the realization that. Many people pulled up in a. Braniewo card because two years older and through my course representation I find out he's not indigent or that's what I have to report I I get it no I I get it but you know but you're represent me in a murder case. And you come to believe that I did it. You will tell the courts that I didn't. Certainly not. So I'm I mean because I don't want to pay the bill for people who are indigent but I that seems to really kind of violate the. The principle for me of of what I'm expecting of an attorney well and that's one of the reasons why that notice is required to be put in the affidavit that the defendant is required to fill out and the court is required to approve that false representations. Or punishable by a perjury charges which is another felony. A upon the. I get it and I can even understand what the legislature did it. It just seems as an attorney. When I start reporting on my client. That just seems to be a real conflict. Inventors US senator garner. Very briefly I think would be to source death so the way I'm reading the new change a law is that the court will make a plan or Lammermuir review skews me and if the person's face is substantial financial hardship they shall appoint the public defender if not it says the court shall review these other determinations. So I read is correct I creates an affirmative position that the court has to rule but and look at these and have some kind of review process is that actually happening by the judges are they just going I do not drive stencil hardship and I just don't think he's determined based everything else or is there some kind of formalized process that they should do causes shall review these things if you're going to not does that Corradino of the of a defendant to actively asked the judge to do this or something that is kinda hand wave. I'm a I really can't comment on the Senate because we only see the ones were appointed we don't see the ones were not appointed I would just say files an investigative journalist who now know this law exists and now look review it with an attorney who deals with indigent people and I would check and see if courts are actually doing this review process or not or judges hand waving my interest in subject for investigative journalists thank you. The directors of. The. We have forty eight cases in Polk County in nine years for those of. A. As for public defender we have thousands of cases and and somewhere size counties. Is there not a report coming to you. A. Of how many. Public defenders and each one these counties a report will come to us monthly. as to the cases that were appointed to the number of cases reported to. and then the number of cases that are disposed. and that's the data that we keep now. That's what we have kept that is the process hopefully of changing with the new system is coming out. That. And we've looked at. Improving the system for reporting but the programs are out there for this. For each individual office thrown forcible. And so we've been in discussions with the IOC. As they're working on something new. Asking for consideration that we be able to capture that data. Through them because. The Clerk opens the case. That's reported to the IOC and when the case is closed and I'm just talking about criminal felony cases. At this point there's a sentencing order and there's a closure and that's report. I will no bill no apples and apples. So y'all haven't had an annual we kept up with an annual report of how many cases are getting out what we keep up we keep up with the numbers but what we don't keep up with any individual court whether or not to report it reporting because last count I think they're or. For the look to these numbers last month. The number of district courts and the number of circuit courts of this state. If you kept up with each individual one. It's almost impossible because you've got courts. Let's take let's take fable you got courts in fable you got a city division you have a county division you have courts if they're still existence and I think they are yeah I'm in Springdale you have a moment Elkins you have women West Fork and that's all one County and I'm sure I'm missing so that's all in one county it's really not that hard. The The what. What we pay to keep up with spreadsheets of at the government level astonishes me but You know but keeping up with the record set. mmhm my business level. Of. Actually I probably keep up with more records then you'll do and. The. But we. I have that information coming in and then stack in it right I mean an excel spreadsheets an excel spreadsheet of so but we we haven't had you know. The ability to look at an annual report and saying. This we've got. This committee public defender from this county or from this court and. US senator if you're asking. Do we. Do we have reporting yes DO I go look at Lincoln city election District Court and say okay how many public defenders the a point last year. No I don't look at that one court. For that we look at the case number totals is what we look at. Okay. Well it just appears that there's some of red flags that might have appeared I mean when you look at forty eight cases over of. Five years versus thousands of that that we bought of saying there I don't see any other questions. I'm sort Senator Stubblefield just. Thank you Mr do you know how many how many individuals are sitting in Arkansas jails that have not been assigned a public defender right now. Senator dot I do not because of. Under a as I said earlier that rule eight point six of the rules of criminal procedure. prosecutors have sixty days from the date of arrest to file the felony information. and so there can be people sitting in jails right now that have been there two days three days anywhere up to fifty nine days. And that felony information has not been filed they have not been assigned a public health for most part my experience with prosecutors as they get these filed within thirty days but as soon as law enforcement yes then the file. To follow are we are we are crisis. Our justice system regarding public defenders. Senator robin director I'm going on two years and we're at a crisis before I became director as far as the numbers so it is we are with COVID. We drowned two weeks ago Indians on average Pulaski County is catching a hundred cases a week. By appointment and that's felony cases that that include District Court. Hendren felony cases which is what they tell me they're catching. And your solution would be. If you could solve this tomorrow what would you do. Senator I have said and I'll continue say throwing money at this without a plan it's not a fix. Because. What we're talking about a backlog. We're also talking about a manpower issue or a female power issue. I've ever tries to three public defender positions are Pulaski County talking about money we're talking about money but. If I cannot pay them. What I can pay them now I'm not gonna get a so so in essence it is a money it is starts out with the pay issue for me being able to attract somebody. that's the money issue the pay issue and. I will always lose out. And I'm not saying prosecution make too much they probably don't make enough for you that's for them to argue but I will always lose out if I have to compete with prosecutors for the same Canada hello cannot play with a complete. And you had. At the same time we're paying county jail to keep these people in jail. We are and and thousands thousands in jail. Who have not been appointed a public defender and as as you know I was here last week when I heard a DC talk about the backup. And I think the number was twenty two hundred. Of my responses if you cleared out twenty two hundred beds tonight. And low to moderate a state. In four weeks those bills will be filled back up and then you have a sense of urgency. and we sympathize with the sheriff's office with people sleeping on the floors we get it we understand that. But in all. It's it's a much bigger bigger issue than just prosecutors and public defenders and judges. It's it's a numbers issue and it saves time issue. That I. Because as I say we have districts that we are covering. if you take the fifteenth district which is Conway County. I don't know if anybody's ever driven the entire district. That is a hard district to drive if you're following a circuit judge around and you've got a case of Paul and Scott County you can mark off a whole day. And so that's another thing that's a time issue as well well it sounds to me like. Mystical yes I just wanted to address one thing in. With looking into some of these cases there there is a review process in that review process is done by the judge at least in Polk County where our story was was centered I'm. I'll be honest with the way we got some of these documents we got lucky. we are able to start looking for public defender usage fees and from there we got lucky with getting some of the the court documents What's going to make telling a lot of the stories difficult. Will be the fact that district courts don't transcribe what's sad. A judge could of you say whatever he or she wants and and District Court and there is no record of that ever end and that made it very difficult and in finding this and and exposing this issue. I just wanted to make sure that was duly noted. The I have one last question I will go to the next subject of. And just a simple answer. Of I mean looking at the nursing shortage you know and I know that. We love I helped lead the charge to. get funding for another area within government and then we. there we still couldn't find the people of. Do the to attorneys exist. if we fix the pay issue. I think absolutely these attorneys excess I mean as I said I I've been doing criminal law for twenty years and there's a lot of other attorneys that are interested in it I know that want to work in it and and so I think that there's definitely a market out there for people who want to do to do the work good to know. All right thank you thank you all for being here it was very informative. Okay we're gonna go to the discussion county jail population creases more quick more she flew Council social Arkansas counties to moulder sure of Washington County Rodney you rot sure of of sling County most important witness that we've got today and fill up my Miller sure of what can. You don't stand back up. And we'll start with the. My left you're right with the. Sure fraud if you would identify your sales by name and your positions for the record please I have a right same county sheriff the rest of your journals marks on. Philip Miller White County sheriff. Mark Whitmore chief legal counsel association Arkansas counties. Tim elder or service Washington County sheriff thank you will be seated. Who wants to start. Yes that's me thank you for being here today if thank you for the invite this important topic. Appreciate the opportunity to speak so. From my perspective Senator I've been in law enforcement for forty three years eighteen a share of and I'll have to say that the back up in our county jail statewide is as bad as I've ever seen there have been spikes throughout the years that were quickly resolve this is been sustained the longest that I can remember To use my jail as a as an example we have over twenty five percent of the. The detainees or prisoners that occupy space in my jail our state prisoners that could otherwise be house somewhere else. COVID has complicated this whole issue that we are finding space to be much more of a premium now with the quarantine requirements and what not and we just don't have the space anymore the luxury of keeping additional of on behalf of the state. I was discussing with Mark Whitmore earlier some of the things we don't think about that occur within our county jails whatever we overstock if you will. Is the rise in violence within our a detention centers against our employees we recognized a jump from thirty workers comp of filings to seventy five over the last twelve month period and these were strictly due to a tax on the officers by detainees of this is due in large part to overcrowding issues I am a seven hundred and ten bed facility by standards five hundred and eighty would be our maximum capacity I had eight hundred and fifteen as a high yesterday with a hundred and twenty four positive COVID cases so you can see that it's a complex issue that we're dealing with but I think what I'm here to speak about today is about the specific portion of overcrowding that is caused by state backlog. Back in the B. B. administration I served on a committee or commission to discuss this very issue with overcrowding and reform in the prison system ACT five seventy came out of that were the rooms reduction in sentencing matrixes for a different drug offenses and what not but if you'll recall there was a mass release of. Reserves from the state. And then we jump into the Hutchinson the administration and we had another will it first of all that in that first year so governor Hutchinson they did get everybody back in jail because we had a we had a homicide if you were member of the university student by one of the early release people and it created a whole other issue. Well then we we found ourselves back on committee discussing what we're gonna do about prison overcrowding in county jail overcrowding and I think what was ACT four twenty three that came out of that. And all of these committees or or of of value because there's a lot of meaningful discussion and a lot of great ideas come out and one of those And for twenty three was to come up with a ninety day rip on some of the parole offenders you know so they don't get a full sanction but they would be only do ninety days. Which we're all in support of because the other end of that was the state was going to they were going to build regional holding facilities for the ninety day violators well guess what there were never any regional facilities built the county jails became those regional facilities so I think today I had thirty five of those ninety day rips in my jail that could otherwise be of. Serving their time in the state I've got over two hundred of state prisoners in my jail and it's just becoming unmanageable so I think that for my portion of my. my statement is it is time for the state to step up in two thousand five we moved into a new facility the facility I was just talking about and I think mark may speak to you about how many county jails have built new facilities or expanded and I think the last time the state did was in three and we are in Washington County right now in the midst of trying to come up with funding to expand our our facility now based on COVID mitigation but I just need I need this for all and I simply do not have the space to house other people's prisoner so thank you for your time. For the next one I have representative ray. Mister chairman I'll just hold my question Tillar bisa opportunity. All right news next hour ago you Mr chairman of S. shareholder letter to you last time to a bill the president state level. Resented when governor Mike Huckabee was governor two thousand three it open. You all had plans and had intentions to build another prison state president back in two thousand thirteen but as I know it takes a supermajority. Of joint budget to pass the budget and that failed and so every sensors like their company a consulting call JFA they've been studying the system here in Arkansas for over a quarter century they give the border corrections and folks a report every year about the gross crime growth of different populations of the criminal system and they basically told that all of us and bind first served notice this the Arkansas's crime rate is fourth or fifth about crime nationally of the growth rate was about three point five percent now I think about now but it's gone down to one point seven so it all points in time every time that sure Felder in the sheriff's come here in the capital we're never talking about reversing the criminal element of the population you're just bending that growth car. And folks what happens is he alluded to it sure felt or did about the. That when you get people that are violent criminals and they're not going upstream after supposed to they're down in general population in the jail well there next to people that have D. W. eyes or other minor crimes and and that causes the public safety issues for our drivers and for the people that are detainees so y'all had a need literally since before two thousand thirteen to build another maximum prisoner Arkansas. And yes we have done things like drug courts and yes we have passed ACT five seventy we passed of four twenty three you have mental health but when you're talking about violent crime. And the growth of violent crime it takes these maximum prison beds and public safety is a premium no no no that the citizens look to you all every night when you watch the news every day when you look at the newspaper. I'm ballot crime is on the run right now the shares can add to that but I want to make sure your realized started penance Joe standard to pull this information up for us. Yes there since two thousand fifteen to date. Your local county jails have added two thousand one hundred fifty four local gel pads. And chirped Senator Stubblefield always call y'all y'all live near somebody that's trying to it's either added or going to add a joke under the jail. And it's not because they want to add for more misdemeanors. It's because they literally have hundreds of state prisoners that should just be there for thirty days or sixty days until the paperwork on and then they go upstream is that the corrections the server sentence or they go to community corrections to receive their treatment the program we'll both will not happen. So the parolees a shareholder said that are supposed to receive the treatment program and are stuck in a county jails by the hundreds and even worse than that it's like to a system of dams water. They released felonies early. So there is no truth in sentencing of our prison system with just sixteen to seventeen thousand prisoners in a given year release violent felons back on the streets retaining. Much before they're sent to serve before fraction of their Senator Sturch. If they have a twelve year sentence and not serve two and a half years. For violent crime and if you all remember last session all the the legislature densify everywhere sheriff came up here Senator Dismang we had an act. In which came to this committee Mr chairman ACT nine forty six Senate bill three hundred in which the shares realize that Hey you Senator Dismang. There are people that were using guns in crimes possessed guns that were convicted felons convicted felons are not supposed to have to go. Not only did they possess and there used in a crime. And guess what. They were serving on average fourteen months. So when they re offended with a gun they're not suppose possess and so you auditors to favor. And your society a favor passing a law that says Hey you don't get parole it's just like the federal system. Either quit carrying a gun around committing crimes convicted felon. we're gonna treat you just like the feds Day. And at that point in time the. The corrections officials made appreciate Sullivan Sullivan does a good job I think for sure so great working relationship with Sullivan he testified that pay that is going to impact to fall that impact statement on that bill Senate bill three hundred that made the point. That we're gonna have to build another president. Due to the fact that we're modified to make folks to stay longer But yet as we sit here everybody's continued to nibble. Your retirement at I mean there's no plans to build the state press. Retirement plan and. We have to add on two thousand beds on our local jails because the state is not at. And you've got a report by the state saying that you need more prison beds. And yet number of net debt we're not acting or. And I'll of before could Mr chairman that the. Sheriff Miller surprise. Sure. Thank you. In our our our population in order to signature yes our most important witness of the day. That just or windows he's my constituents. Thank you. In our population are jealous two hundred thirty four is not and as a comparison to temp elders NO R. twenty five percent of our jail is also state inmates and if you look at it eighty two percent of the people that want to come through my jail it has been convicted of a felony prior to. So when you look at. You know what our county needs to add on and needs to to the. Expand our jail are felony offenses are up twenty eight percent. you know and so I look at these these this list here that eight counties have a It added on there jails and we have thirteen that have built brand new jails since two thousand fifteen thirteen The New jails. Since two thousand fifteen and and we haven't seen any any progress at all four new The president I mean that's you look at those numbers and that's pretty telling that the counties are are doing all they can do. And we just we're looking for you for for support and help. Thank you. Chairman thank you for your time today committee thank you for your time I'll just echo briefly In White County I have over numbers pulled today thirty six percent of our jail population is state inmates today that's thirty six percent out of two hundred and sixty inmates S. as we alluded COVID has really put restrictions we we try to work to make sure that we protect inmates and keep keep restrictions keep. Quarantines and that sort of stuff in order why County bill to a new jail into thousand six and and. When we open that jail we thought all man kind of pipe dream if you will we'll never feel this jail. Guess what in two thousand sixteen we added on an additional space in our jail in here as I sit today. Given COVID restrictions given the number of state inmates interested in my jail I have to every day evaluate who we can and who we can't hold in our jail in other words what criminals are are out there what lawbreakers are out there that we can keep in our jail. Or we turn back into society. in. March of twenty one we had a federal roundup in White County were thirty three indictments were handed down. Of those thirty three indictments I want to read just a couple things real quickly out of a new sources. And fox sixteen reporting federal prosecutors said the suspects have operated in around for ten years and have been arrested over five hundred times. In the course of their life. the if the. Prior to Thursday's arrests. Hendren and five pounds of meth three point three pounds of cocaine and forty four firearms any including silenced firearms were recovered in the US from folks that have been arrested over five hundred taps. And finally at in my jail today and I will mention the person's name because they're charged with attempted capital murder that attempted capital murder happened because he was a written in prison. Violent felony conviction with a firearm before released early. Deputy tries to make contact and he attempt he fires at the deputy thankfully the deputy was not injured. But here I've got a a young officer that has to see this person in our jail when he goes in there and thinking he shot at me when he should have been in prison. you know we talk about reimbursement rates and all that you know what. It's tough in today's job market you being a businessman I understand that finding help is tough. Well finding help in jails is to us. When it when you can go a half mile radius around our jail and find jobs that pay four five six dollars an hour more. But the difference in. The jail reimbursement rates could mean upwards of two thousand dollars. In a day at per per officer salary that could be. appropriated to their salaries with appropriate reimbursement rates thank you. Thank you senator garner. Thank you I got two questions first the always pronounce wrong Lassally prison they're building more foreign Bradley County I know it's been delayed because of that do you think models like that where we look to the private sector to pay and can help relieve is a good model that we should opt more I know that Jill has not opened yet but is something you know what we always appreciate a thing to be a good model itself. All comments first of that covers a certain type of population in that model the good thing about a regional jail is it can pick up needs for both the state of a certain population and local counties and they would enable some counties to shatter their jails and used to regional jail Pulaski County happens be regional jail north rock rock Jacksonville county so it does suit that type population we wish it would get off the ground the second thing is it scratches that particular itch it does not scratch the maximum security prison issue about ballot felonies and what what one thing I want to underscore three believe nothing else today your leading violent persons of state is leading by the criminal criminal defendants out early. Is Your so full. Only in your neighborhood and that's that's what's going on in the coming back to commit crimes and it's no wonder our crime rate so high so it doesn't address that type population but it the maximum security needs that have existed since before two thirteen that had been parked on since two oh three I really gonna dress none of these other programs address the violence other than the actual just passed it's just tell your occupation gonna add more those pants yes aye that's my second point I mean this government has spent. Extraordinaria number in the owned large amount of programs whether it's health care whether it's providing for education whether it's numerous of stuff especially during colder nineteen we had an influx of billions of dollars in federal government otherwise it seems like the number one function of government should be to keep the hordes at bay that's what these men and women in uniform to every single day they make sure that the bad guys go to jail and at the state of Arkansas can't pick it up and build more prisons to put more bad people in we're gonna have this substance this problem we're having with violent crime can have it is astonishing to me that all the government programs we have done the last since two thousand three all the Arkansas Medicaid expansion all the billions of dollars we spent we can't build a Dagenham prism to put bad people in so they don't hurt people in our communities it's shameful and it should be a priority for this body to do that and I mean we talk about the money we talk about all that all day we spent plenty money a lot of things but when it comes to the men and women being safe and letting violent criminals out it is time for us to build something put him in there and lock them away so they aren't hurting the people of Arkansas so I appreciate your coming up have the courage to say this date I know there may be some push back because we're as we keep kicking this down the can down the road but it needs to happen we need to issues that we need to do it thank you. You. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr chairman up casually I go down to as chair of the panel in correctional a committee I got in which is it Tucker garner some if the president's I was down. Last year since we went inside and out I had the opportunity to visit with a few of the prisoners one one particular group of guy was there for of. He was stopped you're back in his vehicle and drove away and I talked to the people there the president I said that was it he was in prison for driving off from a traffic stop another one was there for a couple of ounces of marijuana. A. The sheriff Mr Miller. Wouldn't it wouldn't it be better to take this man who shot at your deputy and put him in one of those sales. That the man who drove away from a traffic stop. And let him out. It put this guy in his cell absolutely I agree one hundred percent we have need to five thousand in there that need to be in there we have thousands of prisoners who have committed nonviolent fun of offenses sitting in prison and then we've got to felons convicted of of multiple felons I mean felonies like you've talked about in county jails. Where is the common sense in that. We would somebody explain to me how that can be one when I visit with these prisoners in our state prison facilities that we're paying twenty four thousand a year to keep on. Have committed nonviolent offenses and then we've got means sending a county jails in Franklin and Wyatt and Logan and they have committed multiple felonies that are dangerous. Repeat offenders. And we can walk amount. Or at least turn this guy out put an ankle bracelet only. It would be much less dangerous than that individual who is shooting at deputies. What can we do something like that why can't we do something like that. Senator I think you've hit the nail on the head and maybe you need to be on this side of the table with us because you're you're echoing our sentiments exactly why can't we will. Sense and and and my response is we can put him in jail. You as a body. Can find can find better ways to do just exactly what you're talking about through alternative medicines through changes in sentencing through ankle monitoring so that the bad people that need to be in jail stay there yes yes Sir I agree a hundred percent well then in that case ACT five seventy fails. We knew that going in okay. So with that five seventy that was one of the big Mrs because they did the massive releases with the promise to increase a parole divisions and they never did that they never funded the increase in parole officers to oversee the people you're talking about that need oversight but by and large would if they had oversight would probably not be committing these additional crimes it was a big mess you know there's a lot of great ideas but until you find the whole idea. It doesn't work that act was signed into law it was not very long one of those released felons killed the girl here on the bridge on a bicycle. I remember that day yeah it was horrible so we're we're not using any kind of common sense here. But this is this need to be looked into we've got non violent offenders sitting in state prisons paying astronomical amounts of money to keep on there were given forty fifty dollars a day jails to get convicted felons of multiple felonies. That's ludicrous agreed I want to make a point to I'm sorry I'll make a point to Senator this to correct some of. Y'all definitely need more maximum security prison beds and what you'll do with non violent felons at your decision you mentioned us switching amount were overloaded with we're not supposed to hold felons were temporary like a bus stop for pre adjudicated we are supposed to take felons and we hold we're supposed to be able to hold misdemeanor right now Latah county jails of Britain hold a misdemeanor for years now because we're full Benton County has over two hundred state prisoners so they don't hold Mr mirrors anymore or does not build a new president but they'll definitely need to handle felonies and please hang on to the violent felons of because we're just the catch and release we don't need catch and release misdemeanor gets released felons well it more space I would say that in on top of that. In two we put in some real consequences and deterrence for the violent repeat felony offenders you're going to see this continue in aren't they just like they're doing in the big cities. Who are run by liberal leftists. And and they're more interested in the end it and putting a database in to gather information on policemen for misconduct than they are protecting the public a public against violent offenders felons. Who can shoot someone and be out on the street before the police officer gets a report filed. This doesn't take a you don't have to be announced and figure this out. I appreciate you guys and what you do and the other feeling they'll be some legislation coming up in the next session. Thank you thank you senator German I want to correct something this rule when I can answer correct but make a statement the what we're getting paid just thirty two dollars a day for state inmates in on and it didn't go up until governor Hutchinson came in it went from twenty eight to thirty and then now we're at thirty two and so you know if if if we're not going to build a prison or if that's not on the radar we've got at least raised amount that were being paid to house state prisoners we do not. I would hope so. Senator Stubblefield. Is the The we talk about switching the prisoners out is that. The corrections and judicious and the judiciary is that who we need to talk to on those those losers. Okay we'll we'll pursue that the. Of. Representative ray. Thank you Mr chairman. it thank you to our sheriff's for being here I want to say I think the state is done all of you terrible to service and it's embarrassing to hear some of the stories that you share today but I appreciate you being here to share that I do have a few questions if you if you could each tell me how long typically is a state prisoner held in your jails. Currently. I don't know that that we have an average but I can tell you that it's a process because I've got some that have been in my deal for over three years but now that's not all on the state prisons for not taking and it's a process to get in there with the serious felony but I think the backup that we're experiencing and have since covid it is probably extended to between eight and fourteen to sixteen months I would say as far as a a backup. And and please remember that's a guess sure but we can come up with the a more definite number. The same here I would say that the we do have some that stay in our jails to the point that they meet that they meet their eligibility for parole release before they ever make it into the department of corrections. Okay And I don't know the answer to this so I'm just gonna put I'm I should maybe I should know but is that is there any sort of statutory limit as to how long the state can keep a prisoner in your jail. Okay. Answers not for official know of what happens of course if they're convicted in circuit court they're in our jail the sheriff's commanded by the conviction to take him to the Department corrections for them charter Senator department committee corrections while he's got custody of miss like a hot potato until they're ready to accept them we transporter and then tell the ready to receive them we're stuck with the and that's retirement your from question is the Tommy Robinson scenario it just happens to be thirty years mount sign scenario remote Tommy Robinson situation where were your county jail in plastic County health twelve hundred forty bets and they've got I don't mind holding a hundred or so two hundred but I'm sure there north of four hundred state prisoners right now and it is catching relates misdemeanors don't spend any time in jail here in a lot of counties because the state is filled up our jails and they are staying for prolong time are we are covered restrictions currently causing us space in our jails. And so can you can you describe that in the county jails causing space restrictions yes Sir absolutely I have had over eight hundred and fifty of positive covid detainees since the beginning of covid fortunately we have a twenty four hours a day seven days a week medical staff that have done a phenomenal job of making sure that they stay in a hospital stay alive but when you start talking about spacing issues when you talk quarantine we have been at times were over three quarters of our detention facility has been quarantine areas. So the general pop was restricted to one quarter of our facility so it has been extremely difficult and the the learning curve changes almost on a weekly basis for dealing with COVID patients so that's from Washington County perspective. And I will tell the this state is been required us to quarantine. State prisoners before they come to this to the washed all unit so. We if we're gonna send Tanner fourteen down there we've got a quarantine them for anywhere from ten to fifteen days before we even sent a we don't have that space we don't have the space in our jails to be able to do that well and that holds it up even more get him sent off and again those those restrictions have changed several times but they're still required us to to quarantine. Okay in the if you don't mind me asking I know the current reimbursement costs is up to thirty two dollars but on average could you estimate what it cost you in your jails to house an inmate of the lead audit we conduct a study is posted on our website at sixty three dollars and fifty cents ability is audited amount. Every year there's fifteen counties different congressional districts and we've done the study for fifteen twenty years now it's always been in the upper fifties early sixties. my last last question when Secretary graves was presenting his budget he mentions the consultant that does projections on prison population and I remember pretty vividly him saying that their projections were that over the next ten years we're gonna go from sixteen thousand state inmates to nineteen thousand state inmates. I guess I would ask our share of see if you could. For those who may come back and listen to this later. Could you please try to look into the future and tell me what the situation would look like in your counties if we went from sixteen thousand prisoners statewide to nineteen thousand and didn't do anything to address the the glaring issue a prison capacity. What I can jump start this and tell you that. Whereas we are in crisis mode now it would be even worse than to to to look take a snapshot of our detention center. Today as compared to ten to fifteen years ago is totally different it looks. Almost as if it's a you're in a South borough of Los Angeles area where we don't have the personnel to keep up on a daily basis like we used to work or she starts spreading on the walls we we are starting to deal with. Gang situations that we never dealt with prior to this and it's only gonna get worse and then you bring that segment that demographic into our jails and it changes the whole environment we we suddenly become a prison instead of a detention center and there is a clear delineation of difference between the two but I would say that if nothing were done. You're going to see more expansion in county jails in you're going to see way more violence and it may become increasingly difficult for us to hire quality employees or employees period to work within our facilities. I don't know that I can answer that any better he's absolutely right you know we we see these state inmates in our in our facilities as crazy as it may sound purposely getting into fights purposely destroying a property purposely tearing up our jails because. In past it's been well if I tear it up and I called them enough problems they'll get me sent down to the state faster where I can get out faster. I will add the represent of all I'm so sorry no go ahead well I will I will edit out of mine twenty five percent of my population is is being held for state. I would say the the other. I'll probably another. Close to seventy percent are there on selling crown felony crimes so as far as like misdemeanors I hold nine right now so almost seventy five percent would be felons that are waiting to go to trial that are going to be you know the odds are a lot of are going to be just in line taking the spot for the fifty three that I have right now and so that you could you could are populations and I'm sure the shareholders is probably more he's the majority of its population or felons and so that type of atmosphere just like you said in our jails that we've got eighteen year old kids up to you know. Sixty five year old man working in the jails and. I had to lower my age to eighteen just so I could get some invoice to come to work or are to have a choice. I have forty five employees in my jail I'm down fifteen. I mean and and I'm working the heck out of the other ones I mean the overtime is is crazy Thames got a probably a worse story his jail I mean he's got absent but when you have a shortage of manpower then you have these type of of people in your jail that we're having to deal with these employees have to deal with. It doesn't take a lot to to order them to Amazon or anywhere else. Then I'll remind everybody from our last two Disher Committee meeting the well the court said that they were fairly well caught up on all other types of cases we were very much backed up on felony cases and so we have we are very much back up all of. Those charged with felony splitting in our jails. Robson Vaught thank you Mr chair I also have several questions so how can prisons just let out these violent prisoners I mean what's happening for these guys to be let out early and if and when this is happening are they into that back in your jails. Additional point the state has what they call emergency powers act what they do is or several hundred people that they released early also well we call it the everyday powers had is not used as an emergency they use it all the time of the other thing is. Just if you just look at like what we discovered of during Senator Dismang Eads bill we got it lapse we worked on Senate bill three hundred we met with corrections officials and our jaws dropped when we found out that somebody was convicted of a felony. That possessed a gun had the gun during the commission of fell on there already a convicted felon should have the gun and yet the amount of time they were serving their get parole serving fourteen months and so much of what's happened is the whole system for over a decade maybe longer is aware of the capacity issue and so when they get sentence or when they go upstream and get let out there being let out early. Despite the fact that the violent felons and it should be to me the guys that are ways that Senator Stubblefield was talking about those of the people who should be banned let out early or being in let me say it this way. A maximum prison costs more to run. A general population if somebody right top checks. I think they probably ought to serve their time. Of they don't have to be in a Hannibal Lecter type maximum prison cell worst US system but my point is we're we don't we'd be stuck with either a if if the state ends up getting on if they wanted to serve on Eichel price or whatever statements on people have objects are non violent we've done a lot of the drug treatment locking drug courts there's a lot of stuff done there but this just the fact that violent felons are being released in the coming back on the street and these people that convicted five hundred times even a drug dealer and. They're not drug treatment right there drug dealer and and they're just coming back so the system is definitely not working and has a lot to do with the past. Will someone alluded a minute ago to ACT five seventy not being funded was that like something that didn't go through budget didn't get funded no appropriation was ever drafted for it can you explain that to me. I can only tell you the end result after the recommendations were made and it's kind of been pretty much on every committee that I've served on the recommendations that were made that costs money we're not followed up on the easy the low hanging fruit is what is picked but it's kind of like a wagon wheel each spoke has a function and you take out more than one or two those folks in your wheels going to collapse and I think that's what's happened to us over the years whenever we have these commissions committees whatever and make meaningful recommendations to cherry pick certain parts of it and not do the the hard stuff it's it's bound to fail I think that's what happened on ACT five seventy in theory it was fine but the massive release without beefing up parole was a disaster we saw that and then if you'll you'll roll on into four twenty three we did do CSU's we try to help the the mentally ill but you know that only affects small percentages of our population it does give us a little bit relief at the county level but. It they're not fully funded statewide so it's just kind of cherry picking mark what was it on for twenty three the I've had a yeah for twenty three the pro ladies they're not supposed to just other than a seven day why sanction parolees they got or gel for seven days to make released corolla systems built were parolees post to go and get their treatment program and at the state that's what pro lease if they get rid Senator sanction to revive there's ninety day eight hundred twenty day sanction if they get revoked actually go back public records of the sentence but you got all the sanctions that was the plan and that means they're going to go upstream to community corrections which is a much lighter expense and actually get treatment that way they don't re offend well that hadn't it has happened to an extent but to a large extent there's dozens or started wanting his channel that are stuck that don't ever go upstream get the treatment and then they just come back refer their spending their sanction in our county jail which was not what was design and so they look good on paper of but it was never implemented there were there were other than if I may just briefly interrupt on that that line well I've got a clear line of thought one of the other things that came out of these committees was to with the ability to parole directly out of county jails. To my knowledge there hasn't been one person rolled out of county jails they've served their time their sanction time in county jails. They go them to eighty C. and they're released you know they're they're paroled out they've done their entire time in county jails does that make sense to anybody in here it doesn't to me SO they've got that ability but they've never utilized that function so that's just another example of things that that came out of these committees at the start their own they're not being done. So is there a law that keeps from I'm sorry Mister chair I just have a couple more is there a law that keeps from happening what Senator Stubblefield was talking about a minute ago someone who's a low offender trading beds with someone that you all have that's a. Let me by my right that would be correct that real quick we held the supposed to we're supposed to hold Mister maker and we hold we're supposed to the sheriff is commanded to take the felons to convicted to either just department corrections department corrections once they get on they get to decide who they let out and how that amount all like that stuff we don't we're not going to you don't have the capacity of trading felons with okay because everything's will go up to strangers we should be getting or other ones were stuck with that body be in there we don't want anyone else we want to all go upstream so whether they let out the guy that wrote talk checks the guy that committed to solving batteries I don't know what their thought processes and whether not they hold the person to write checks hot checks in a. Regional jail like Senator Garner was talking about instead of a maximum or a prison it's Rachel gels cheaper I'll tell you that they actually do work release of regional jails maybe hot check people could be there right instead of the state penitentiary that Mr Stubblefield standing Tucker Garner don't know why they're there myself but I would think that that's not a bad idea exchange numbers not doable because we were not supposed to hold the balance okay. And then my I did have some numbers kind of ran I do like the idea of the regional jails for what you've just talked about your low offenders that would at least get him out of your county jails which should help you all a lot but I do want to bring up some reimbursement numbers because thirty two dollars just struck me at our state the meeting for we talked about funding and pay with all the sheriff's at their sheriff association meeting kind of struck me so I I had some numbers crunched and if you got fifty dollars per person that would give you fourteen million almost five hundred dollars back into your budgets and every dollar you add it's like eight hundred eighty thousand dollars that gets added per day does that make sense what I'm saying so if I go to fifty one dollars that's fifteen million two hundred fifty seven if I go to fifty two dollars that sixteen million a sixty dollars if I go to fifty three dollars a day that sixteen million eight hundred sixty three dollars and you can see it's progressively getting better. So pay is something that's important to me that we figure out a way to fix the paid. And I heard a lot of counties talk about having to you know recruit versus your minister pallipes and how much better municipalities could pay then the counties and how that was a inside more that's always going on you all trying to keep officers well paid in your departments if you've got fifty dollars a day or got fifty five dollars a day or you got your sixty three dollars a day per se. Would that be enough in your budgets to actually give the raises to your law enforcement that you're looking for. Sure I agree with you a hundred percent that as we raise that that helps give us more tools for White County The difference is right at three hundred thousand dollars with a hundred employees you can do pretty quick math and say well that's three thousand dollars an employee more money that would be of more money available to give approximately three thousand dollar per employee raises that right there helps us we know it if this committee with had that had the power to wave a magic wand so we're building a prison today we're years down the road from ever put the first inmate in that prison so in the meeting time how do we. Do this in your right raise raise that reimbursement get so that the counties that are holding those inmates can better pay better recruit folks that can manage that inmate population and so my last question Mister chair thank you for being so generous would be if this was to happen how would your quorum court's. Because I know they essentially are the ones who decide on your pay increases are they going to be willing to be able to help you all out by helping you all have the funds that you need to to get the pay rise as if we were to up and I realize that's still not enough money to cover what you're actually paying out so don't misunderstand me when I say fifty dollars as I know that still a kick in the knee cap okay when I say fifty five I still now that's a kick in the knee cap because you're still not getting the amount that you're having to pay out. But will your quorum court's be willing to go ahead and help you all with pay increases to your law enforcement officers and in your recruiting process if this money was to come back to the county's. I'll speak for selling County arcam chord we've had discussions about this over the last year about how how we're trying to recruit now we're having to compete against all these new businesses that moved into October rock and they're aware of of our struggle of hiring they're aware of the let's being down fifteen employees in the jail and so when I got I feel pretty confident going out away and said yes they would because again they understand that the quality of life in our county depends on if we can find our detention centers we fund our sheriff's office so they realize that not I feel confident that ours will do that. Anybody else want to make our mark online. Hard to say just depends on your election cycle is going to be and sit in those chairs the next go round I would like to think that that would be the case and I think it would probably be more of a shared expense whether it's employee compensation and war if we find ourselves sell still having to hold these. State prisoners and others that that money could be applied to expanding existing facilities to to to develop that so I think. Overall the answer to your question is yes whether it's employee compensation and or the upgrade of facilities I think it would be used directly for that would almost have to be. Thank you so much for being here today. Let me say represent all I'm not nearly as confident. Former quorum court member. It's just as political at the county level everybody's got their hand out of the from over over their employer in the county to the higher ranking law enforcement officers when you start trying to raise those at the lower level as I tried to do of. You everybody else is tell me how much they deserve the money of it is hard to fix those for you really need to fix it which I can do in my business just like that. it is really frustrating government represented eleven. Thank you Mr chair Preciado indulgence to as not being a member of this committee but something that's very very much I'm vested interest in because I've seen the impact that it's had my county in my district that being Lonoke County and sometimes I just like to make things just as simple as I can make and make sure that I understand I convey that information back to my people back home. Mark currently is every county in the state have a county jail. seventy one counties that have a county jail for counties grant Ashley Bradley have a city shared and liked religion all the other ones that run the German Marianna Lee County it's a state penitentiary actually operates January seventy one county St. So seventy one counties. That are experiencing this situation. So if I understand the back up weeks ago from a council chairman graves testified that currently. The state department corrections was twenty three hundred bed short. And. If we look at the twenty three hundred bed short of them being able to hold state prisoners that are currently being held in a county. Locker or these other for that you've mentioned. At the at the delta of thirty one dollars a day between cost and what counties are being reimbursed for. My simple math states that that comes up to about twenty six million dollars a year. The county facilities are are are bearing a shortfall trade. Now again upon just simplifying this ball things are equal amounts seventy five counties you're looking at a shared burden three hundred fifty thousand dollar County correct the twenty six million dollars if. If if we could figure out a way to to make a. One time pro rated payment back to the county's. Of this twenty five twenty six million dollars. Get you made whole get your budgets back on track get your salary structures your benefit structures floating through the quorum court to get that where it needs to be. Then when we get here for regular session next year. Figure out a way to work together to fix this long term with that seem like a fairly simple solution well I think the the word one time there me off because the way the budget works its annual and biannual and then we course have to budget for that so the like Washington County budgets based on the revenues and expenditures so I think the one time aspect is interesting well let me let the delivery status of a one time payment I make good payment this call at that we're gonna make this right. Yes yes if you're talking about like a retroactive to make have a strict. And then we can figure out a way to work together and that would help alleviate this this this pay deficit that you've got each within your counties and it still doesn't fix the bed shortage for but at least to get your county budgets back where they need to be it helps you make the the the the changes that you need to make an in your staffing your payroll to get that were you want to be in that that gives us time between now and then we can work together figure out a solution yeah you're correct thank you. Okay. Save my questions. Of. Shareholder. Of you talked about this are you brought a wealth of information of from this committee commission or multiple that you served on of who is in charge of implementing that administer. Doing the study and and come up with the answers is great but who is in charge of employment. So. I would assume that the legislature would be an in charge of developing the laws ultimately we answer to the governor everything that that are studies. revealed there was a package put together and handed over the governor's office now I don't understand govern government enough to know exactly who's responsible for implementing but I would assume the governor's office would be the starting spot okay and you'll do this under the B. B. administration to do so yeah five seventy was under B. B.. The Committee commissioned the study this and came up with recommendations was them. On five seventy yes and then for twenty three that the right number more that was under Hutchison could. Would it be possible for you. To put together. A. Just a one two three four this is what the recommendations were for me just you know it's got to be you know a deal for dummies or I'm not gonna look at it I'm just going to say I'm good at that okay good it's going to be very simple of for for just me to look at to get an idea of what what it is we're supposed to be doing. Of any specially with the nasco of the parts that were not doing correct yes Sir that be very helpful to me The how many of mark the or anybody but how many state prisoners are in county jails currently. One hundred eleven of late I just over twenty three hundred twenty three hundred or in case of any I'll keep you all know that I'm an equal opportunity script. NO former quorum court members so. Twenty three hundred state prisoners in county jails okay which is not where they belong. Right we're we're putting our burden. On counties are they belong and if their state prisoners they belong in. State prison. The of course we have a tool. Issue because Arkansas according to everything already has a much higher than average. Of. Is not right. But then I know the pub the if I'm talking to you you know you're gonna so as to the people who are gonna complain about that will exactly what would you have us do you know the the because of the certainly they don't when somebody's being stolen from or beaten up or whatever they certainly want you to arrest all of so The. With you I think both or two of the surest anyway so twenty five percent in your jails were state prisoners. Of. Is it. That is the fact that they're twenty five percent because and we talk about reimbursement so is is it a real complaint. And again I'm asking all these questions is a real complaint that is twenty five percent or do we want state prison. Fifteen years ago I needed I felt like from a fiduciary standpoint I needed some state prisoners I needed some paying customers to offset our our budget. But senator it's gotten to the point now from my perspective that. I Mark corn court's going to have to find another funding mechanism because this becomes a safety issue it becomes a civil rights issue when when you have people sleeping on top of each other. it's not right and so. I can only speak for myself there may be a handful of sheriff's offices in the state right now that I want to keep some state prisoners because of the funding. I just happen to not be one of them I know bit counties not I know these guys sitting here or not so. Sure. What I'll say also as a state inmate we've got several that are that need different they have different needs that we can't do it whether it be there were sentenced to the state hospital or or the I. Medical needs we can't and we can't get rid of them when we need to be but other than that I was gonna solutions I'd rather than be on. May twenty five percent of our of our population but in general it other than those special do we do we want the state prisoners do not. Well I can tell you not at thirty two dollars a day okay because well and I ask the but when I appreciate the honest answer because I know what's. It's been both it's been I mean we had. His or sleeping on the floor we still won the state money. Of the end but and sometimes it was. Order of you know how we're paying for our jail. into we got to the point that we're over full and so sometimes it's you know it depends on where you're at as far as capacity if we don't have capacity then we want to prisoners if we and sometimes it doesn't seem to make any sense we're saying our cost is here and we're only getting this much I'm certain what do we want to make or lose money. which brings me to another question caused because Clark jumped in there and answer the calls. But you all have a budget that you do every year starting in October usually and you have to have it by law in December what's your real cost. Each one of you. I can tell you that now that there there is a formula that they go by and it's a different you know that I can play with form on their way to I don't know but there formal well the form is gonna be different but it's costing swing county per prisoner per day but you'll actually have to pay because you because you have to spend money and you know and they are just very has to make sure that all the. The all the dollars. Come out. What seller for me. But maybe I can answer that you know you're asking is how much does it cost to feed them to give a total paper given water to giving sheets to give him mattresses they're gonna tear up to give them the medical care and all of that for White County our budget for detention centers over two million dollars so is that amount of money that we're getting for reimbursements on state prisoners is it. Nast account that that into our budget sureties but does it actually cover the cost of having to continually paint because they're putting graffiti on the wall and gang signs that no you're not I'm a bill materials so I under no you in so you understand I mean that's thank you does do so so I'm asking what your real your real calls for prisoners when you ask for a cost I think I can only referred back to the inmate cost report that we calculate annually so that we have an idea. You guys can go to work for the state. Ours is seventy seven dollars opportunity skeptic ours is seventy six dollars a day and that's based on everything from meals to the employee cost a depreciation on the building everything if we take a depreciation of the bill in which I which I do which which are I appreciate a depreciation yeah but if you take a depreciation out. We'll have to go find out what that that amount is to be on the Senator but what Clark gave you was the average okay first statewide but every J. you understand what I'm asking because it and and here's what you guys because it was if it if or if we're getting thirty two. And we're paying this. I'd be rebelling it was on the courtordered the rebel I thank. I'd be like Tommy Robinson. I'll be a to it here they are. You ain't leaving on here so just of but the but the but we have twenty three hundred. That are in county jails I'm very sympathetic. With twenty three hundred that are county jails that belong in state prison. And this is been going on for a long time. that but course but that doesn't even that doesn't account well I mean we're talking about point three hundred this is account for the early release. Of people who should be released. I mean twenty three hundred didn't fix that. So. Let me ask you a question how much of our crime. Because crimes really going up and I and I know it's not just happen in Arkansas but how much or crime do you think is related. To us putting these people who commit crime. Back. Back on the street in the fact that they know we're going to. because you're officers and you are dealing with these people you you have an idea of their mindset I think the last numbers I saw recidivism was about seventy percent well that means that seventy percent new crimes are being committed by the same people that are coming out the back door the prison that are now once again waiting to go back and so is that an absolute accurate number I can't say that is but if recidivism is seventy percent because they're committing new crimes. You have to assume that a large percent of our crimes are being committed by people that are getting out of reoffending and going back in. The scariest thing I heard and it didn't surprise me but still the scariest thing I heard. Shareholders. Was from you. And here let me tell you what I heard you said we are seeing gangs form except for what I heard was criminals. Here in Arkansas are getting bolder and more organized that that's what I heard. Is that did I hear wrong no it's absolutely correct senator I think that we're seeing an entirely different criminal if you will then we did fifteen years ago we state we have a more like we would Senate foreign more like which in an urban city that's absolutely correct our demographic changes just there's a there's a variety of reasons that not only has crime increase but the seriousness of crimes I can't tell you how many shooting are crimes that we have throughout Washington Benton County on a daily basis where that was totally abnormal fifteen years ago it just didn't happen a lot it's our world is changing not for the better when it comes to the group criminal justice system and the type of client that we're dealing with that we're having the House within our county jails it's it's totally different much more violent and part of the problem and there I say it is everybody wants to take credit for a tax cut nobody wants to take credit for president. The but. Bye but our citizens. Are bearing the brunt. Our families are bearing the brunt. Of this increase crime that is. Mmhm maybe it's not happening in our neighborhoods but this is going to be more more noticeable that's one the things that that we like about Arkansas is is not having that kind of crime right. Senator Clark from may you know why County I've been in law enforcement there for twenty four years. Kind of a sleepy community fifteen years ago gangs was not a White County issue gangs was a little rock issue J. A. games was the any issue of big inner city. We are now seeing gangs coming in we're seeing though the facts of those gangs moving into our areas fifteen years ago if we were housing one or maybe two people that were charged with a capital offense capital homicide that was a busy year I'm currently holding fifteen that are charged with capital homicide or homicide related offenses. I think that kind of tells the story of where we're at. Sir Stubblefield as a question but German offline NO the only thing we don't do it enough who would thank our staff. If the Elson or the staff to put these things together for us we work full time jobs of but offline we need help for me all of the old ideas on what can be done I know that you all get frustrated but we don't need to pass laws that are that don't help anything but what can be done because we sit on the Judiciary Committee and as we look at these problems coming in already here or anything that we can do of the to do so by the end of its building present if it's something else I mean we obviously you wanna think we've been looking at keeping people out of prison that don't need to be there I think I've seen successful drug courts and of except for but we also need to put people there and keep them there that need to be there and I know you'll see that of. The you know law for you know a for a friend at law enforcement officers and it's all it's easy to get jaded when you deal with those people who just have that you know they're just going they're going to be a criminal and people who don't deal with it day in and day out don't realize. that mindset and of until you come across it and are victim of it so we very much appreciate what you do the citizens of Arkansas very much appreciate what you do I know there's been a lot here in the last couple years we've had people even people not want to comment to of. what you did let me say I was skeptical about whether you got more money or that would go where it ought to go I am a skeptical of but the of but that's something that you have to lobby your quorum court's. and you also have to keep in mind. That if you're if you can't get jailers. I don't care if you captains think they need more money. You gotta pay your jailers more money. Okay and I don't care if you know if the circuit clerk's office and I love them too well we you know we deserve more money to are they missing any people. But yet you're short fifteen drivers of the that's the thing that as a businessman we understood you know we understand if if we don't have people then that's where the that's where the pay problem is that's where the that's where the economy has changed that's where the market has changed and that's where we that's where we have to get more money that's where you've got to go to court get businessmen to come in and explain. Of and say Hey we're all we're all going to be overrun with crime. If we don't get this changed because we've got poor counties I can't do a lot. But we some you represent counties that are poor and there's no excuse for us not fixing of some of these these problems these pay act inequities in law enforcement they just all be fixed I'll get off my soapbox Senator Stubblefield. You too can. Thank you Mr chairman. Hillman. Do you think do you think that criminals watch TV and. Watch news reports from. News is happening all over the country New York to California Washington Oregon menace. Watch that here in Arkansas you mean when they're not sitting in our jails are when they're out of jail because I know that they're they are watching it when they're sitting in our jails because they have to get those news sources yes Sir I agree I think they are watching and I think this is the. What. So when I get away with when I see a group a whole group of. Of a I called the. Bust into a store in. And smash all the cases and still. Hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars worth of high priced merchandise goes smashing Graham so when they see that. In the end the only punishment is to be charged with a misdemeanor. And I can take that merchandise out and sell it for thousands of dollars. Buy drugs with it sell the drugs make more money. And then I see politicians. Raise bail money to get them out of jail. Which happened all during two thousand twenty and. Twenty one. Politicians actually putting together go fund me accounts to bail out felons. Who had participated in a lot of these crimes. And they're watching all that. Do you thanks. The having that southern border open has affected the crime in your counties. Absolutely you know when the when the border was much more restricted in our in our county let them speak for theirs we know that are part of the state is controlled by the Sinaloa cartel out of Mexico we know that the drugs come through Brownsville comes to el Paso comes right up up right up the interstate right through White County and in this distributed from there we saw the availability of meth fentanyl cocaine. When the border was shut down that availability went way down in the price went up. We're in the absolute reversal now the availability is everywhere and the prices bottom dollar because it's so easy to get it through and that's that's White County I'll let them speak to their counties. That's every county that the Arkansas and if you have an interstate running through your county like I do. That's and I mean that's that's very common we send it to and we even had border agents come to the one of our conferences explain to us what the increase has been Act not not necessary just for Arkansas but for the whole country of what the increases Denmark and how they've been unavailable earned. They're just they're not they don't have the manpower and they can get shut down by politicians so so if you pull over a car load of of the individuals let's say four five in a car and they've got bags of. Message and in fact they say now that most of the drugs coming into the country or are cut with forty five percent fifty dollars it has forty five percent fitting all in it. Do you rest and you take the drugs those individuals go to county jail. And that's where you hold those individuals. Until. Is. Our immigration comes or where do they go. Well we have charges they're gonna sit there until we have the charges are filed to the Committee other sixty days for that they could be there up to a year thank you senator Joe four year from a foreign country if there if we get charges on them yes and we're paying we're paying that seventy dollars. Per individual to keep them there for a year for them bringing illegal drugs in this country from. Across the border. Okay so it it really depends is not as cut and dried as as that oftentimes these become federal cases Rodney they may get a lot on at the state level but we work with immigration we work with the EA and they will then take charge and file generally those charges will be filed in federal court at least in my jurisdiction and they will have them just long enough until the grand jury convenes and once they decide if they're gonna be charged then we can work with the marshals to get them shipped off what wherever it is if it's immigration that's going to take or not but if there is clearly a criminal case. Where is immigration taken. Well they have holding facilities as well but there what Rodney to kinda added Rodney said they they're all going to sit back and see what the the criminal charges are and what that. What that's going to end up being or they're gonna go to federal prison first and then be deported or they're going to go to state prison then be deported. Or they got a if it's not a huge charge and they're just a mule that's carrying the stuff or they just going to be then deport. Are there there there's really no set way that that's handled they're all different of the taxpayer of Arkansas picking up any of that bill tab every day there in the county jail were somebody's paying for it and and you're not been re reimbursed by the federal government not until there's a hold or the the feds have actually place that hold on and then if not all county jails have that relationship but I have a contract that if we end up building and they were reimbursed. So if you were president would you shut down some border me personally yes absolutely. What a Chevy shut down so the more. You know that things are gonna get worse before they get better. Without border open you're preaching to the choir at are they talking about they were talking about the the amount of drugs but we're also seeing a different drug coming across in a whole other level of violence that has increased and I think that we've got to attribute the majority that two of the open borders in the development of gangs what about heroin when's the last time really that we have this upsurge of heroin in the United States well it's really gone crazy in the last forty five years and it's coming directly across. We'll bring the brazen the these criminals are committing these actors are going to become more brazen the more they say that there's no consequences to their actions. Are no accountability for their actions that's that's not gonna do anything but increase. So it's going to get it's going to become more dangerous in places like Arkansas. In Mississippi and Tennessee and Missouri. And along with the along with human trafficking aspect of it which is very hard to detect and that's happening it. They already tell us it's a that's a two hundred fifty billion dollar a year industry two hundred and fifty billion dollars for trafficking kids across this country. And we're those individuals go if they're caught trafficking individual the same place a drug. People go do they wait on us the way on immigration authorities. If you're speaking of people there in this country illegally there I'm talking about a legal then yes then yes is the answer and those children that they're bringing in if there are certain may under certain they go to DHS. I believe that's the process that until they can identify who their parents are where their parents are or any legal guardian's within this country I think DHS then takes custody but that's or as a swipe well I think you know as well as I did that many children are brought in this country. They're turned loose and they're brought in just as a means to get across the border. And the parents if if they are parents they leave them because I knew that they know they'll be taking care of our educational system our medical system. Our DHS system. I'm. You know I'm not a prude prognosticator. But I'm telling you this is going to get worse before it gets better much much worse. You're going to see more violent crime not only in our cross country but in Arkansas. Thank you your gun thank March of this sub provision or regional jail whatever it is of been Southwest Arkansas how many beds do you know. Thank their plan at one time was five hundred I think of one another time they five two to six hundred but it did not turn dark yet I know it's a. But it's common so that's I don't know if it's coming I know that they planned it but I've it's not come to this location. Also six hundred but you said that some local tales may close so. We may not see a full six hundred US forces states at one time this regional jail was gonna close Bradley Andrews but I don't know the Bradley still involves or was he talking about. Closing Dreyer which Drew County would keep their prisoners in there which wouldn't be that many it would hold so federal state and other locals of its own workforce top. Published was we close out Senator Stubblefield as riot. there is a great cost. To one of. It is the drugs come across as you gentleman though drug if more drugs are coming across the southern border shall have said there are a with the border being more open that of course leads to more crime of all kinds people who are who are on drugs of committee a great deal of crime just to support their habit. Of the wi of that's part of what drug courts are about this too rather than imprison them to get them off the drugs of. The I'll tell you from my work in a child welfare and child welfare reform on two thousand eight eighteen percent of the children that the state took of was drugs were related in some way in two thousand seventeen was fifty eight percent of so as drugs are cheaper and more readily available of there's another cost to the people of Arkansas The so the the southern border substitutional field is wrought is costing us in a great number of ways of thank you for being here this is been very enlightening of as far as our needs as far as of may be something that maybe a lot of people want to talk about this far as our our needs of as far as builds to a places to put people are who are not following the law and then not following the law all right danger to the rest of our citizens and we thank you all for standing in the way. In protecting the rest of us and being here and informing us of we I don't know what our next meeting will be we've got the fiscal session starting Monday but there were several subjects that came up today that will be taken up I want to remind you and the other law enforcement watching that this is your committee. and if you if their subjects that you think that of that we as your legislators ought to be taken up don't hesitate to contact me of and we'll take a look and see if it's something that that we that we need to take testimony only need to look at of because of we certainly what to look at problems of law enforcement problems of that are affecting the people of Arkansas thank you for being here and we are adjourn.