Energy - Joint
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order
members our first item of business is consideration of the approval of the minutes from the September 29th 2025 meeting that's Exhibit B in your packet I'll give you a moment to take a look at those minutes and then would entertain a motion Senator Johnson moves approval is there a second representative lady with the second any discussion all in favor of approval say aye any opposed the minutes are approved
that's going to bring us to the next item of business which is the consideration of proposed subcontracts related to excel okay i understand that we have representatives of excel that are here today i think they were in the wrong committee room so we'll give them just a
Speaker 36
8:02
moment to make their way over here all right so we're uh we're down
to item c which is the the proposed subcontracts if y'all want to
forward and if you would introduce yourself to the committee and then we'll begin with why don't we begin with exhibit C1 which is proposed consulting agreement between Excel and Murphy energy and infrastructure there's a yeah
Speaker 58
8:50
there you go there we go good afternoon my name is Brian Meadors I am
Speaker 59
8:56
the general counsel of Excel Services Corporation we've received the contract for the nuclear feasibility study from this committee and thank you for that we've We've been actively going forward on the study and making good and regular progress according to our initial plans. There were two areas where I wanted to get really expert opinions on that are not uniquely nuclear.
And one of them has to do with the financing of new nuclear. And in my opinion, and this will come out in the final report, but the two largest barriers to new nuclear are not, it's not regulatory. It's the financing and it's also the maturity of the supply chain. So I'm paying a lot of attention to the financing part. Toward that end, Excel hired a financing expert, but we also want to make sure that that opinion and that that portion of the contract has some expert, like even more expert review. And
so we would like to hire a gentleman named Paul Murphy who specializes in nuclear financing and is involved in those sorts of deals and so his contract
Speaker 60
10:03
is at exhibit c and is it also c2 there let me find that his profile is at c2 yes c1 and c2 and so we have a master's a
Speaker 59
10:14
master agreement with um with paul murphy and then what we do is for the work that needs to be done we just generate a work order so we would like to hire mr murphy as part of this contract please
This has no change to the cost of the study. The study is still capped at the same number. It's just some folks I would like to hire to make
sure that we give you all the best possible product. So, and you touched on one question I had just for clarity, is that on either of these subcontracts it does not increase the cost to the state of Arkansas. We're still operating under the master agreement with your firm. That is correct. And then my second question is, as I understand the agreement between us and Excel is that the product that you're undertaking and the reports and other things that you're generating are confidential in terms of how they're prepared and then ultimately that they will be provided to us.
And I didn't see in either of these that there is a similar type of confidentiality. Confidentiality and is that something that we could potentially add to those two subcontracts? Yes, so there exists
Speaker 60
11:29
currently for both these folks I currently have NDA that Excel currently has NDAs with both of them. Are those separate agreements? They're separate agreements. Yes They must be because I know that I've exercised those I can get those to you. Okay, because I know
like in one of the agreements and
and our counsel can correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the agreements, it talks about that proprietary or confidential information that's produced is confidential, but ultimately some of what we're paying for is their expertise to generate these reports, and likewise we would want that to be confidential for our benefit moving forward. So that was my only question as a follow-up to those.
Speaker 59
12:15
Right. Yes, sir. So if I could, please, may I amend my request to have approval for these subcontracts subject to me providing the Bureau of Legislative Research, the NDAs associated with each one of the subcontractors?
I mean, that would be fine with me. And we'll take up a motion in a moment. And I know that you all have worked with Jill in the past. And from my standpoint, I think if you continue
to work with her and I'm sure that y'all can work out the type of language that provides us that type of confidentiality. Okay. Thank you. So we do have some questions. Senator McKee here. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
12:58
Thank you for coming today. This is something I think we're all pretty excited about.
we all also know that there are a lot of the number of groups developing nuclear energy in the last couple years has just exploded right right and so i think in a good way good nuclear in a good way yes sir uh one of these subcontracts i think it's the one with nucleon yes is nucleon one of those groups that's actively developing one of those technologies yes okay and do you so i i think and i think a lot of others think that it's very important that we stay technology neutral or agnostic during this process,
and you don't foresee any conflict of interest with respect to
Speaker 59
13:39
that? No, I don't. So, right, so that's a good question, Senator. Nucleon is itself technology neutral. They're developers. They're a bunch of oil and gas guys who about three years ago got some fundings from an outside investor and have developed really good infrastructure for new nuclear development. And they took the approach of, well, we know how to develop energy. I'll just swap out a fossil fuel plant and put in a nuclear plant instead.
And they got involved with Xcel in part because they knew of our nuclear expertise. And I foresee a partnership coming up there, and this is just one of them. They'll also get our help with the North Dakota study that they got by beating us just by that much. We were both up at North Dakota. They have an arrangement with a, I don't know if I'm allowed to say what the group is, but they have an arrangement with a particular technology.
But what they think about technology is not going to come into this study. What Excel thinks about the technology is what's coming into the study. What I'm relying on Nucleon for is they're, and I don't think I knew this until recently, but like there's this whole world out there about the way these transmission lines work and like which way the electricity flows and you can't just hook something up to the grid and expect it to go like there's I'm gonna get the nomenclature wrong but like there's like certain pipes and constraints and so forth but anyway these guys know what they're doing on that to make sure that if I
put a plant in a particular area will it be on the grid and can it get its power where it needs to be and those guys are good at that and that's what I want to use them for but they can also do it uh with a nuclear filter on okay and so that's so for me they're uniquely qualified to do that and they're
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
15:33
completely unbiased very good okay mr chairman i have motion at the proper time thank you uh and we'll come back for your motion senator hickey
you're recognized thank you mr chair mine's as
it relates to the contract itself and some of that may have been
covered in uh what the chairman was asking you so you have a set amount under a regular contract and you said it would, by doing this, it would not increase the state's payout in any way. Is that correct? Correct. Okay. Is the contract that you all have now, was it for a certain dollar amount, or was there some contingencies in there that said, like, so much an hour for travel that could make the cumulative total go up? No, sir.
Speaker 86
16:13
So, right. So I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 59
16:18
It's the best scenario for the state. Okay. It is a time and materials contract plus whatever our expenses are, but there's a cap on all of it and the cap is 305,000 okay, there is a provision in there That would let me come back to this committee hat in hand if I needed a little bit more extra money I'm really hoping I don't have to do that But and I don't at this at this time. I don't see a need for that But that's where we are so absent the committee granting us more money
We are capped at $305,000, and I don't see any reason why I can't do it for that price.
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
16:56
But you could possibly do it for $270,000 or something to that nature. I understand where you're at. My question is as it relates to this. So you've got this in there for this in the event that there would be travel costs that they would be billed to you all for $350,000. So what I'm saying is if there's additional travel costs, those are going to come to the state, and that potentially could increase what the state is having to pay out, it looks like to me.
And one other thing, though, and Mr. Chair may need your help right here, but it says in the event of the termination that they're going to provide you all with a full of accounting of what the costs were. I'm just wondering if that should also include the state so that in the event that something was to go sideways and if we were to need a full accounting of what those were too since state funds had been expended if we should include that right and that may be for our
Speaker 60
17:53
staff to right i senator i think that the the items that you're identifying uh there are current
Speaker 59
17:58
mechanisms that address all those concerns so the state is not paying any money until they see from us a detailed bill on exactly what we did when we did it and like a description of that and i talked with Ms. Thayer in the beginning about this, and being both a lawyer and an engineer, I have an appreciation for the way that both bill, and at least lawyers put in a lot of detail on what they say, whereas the engineers will just say worked on project. Lawyers will actually break it all down. And I said, and it's my goal to give really detailed descriptions
of exactly what we're doing. And so that's what we have done. Now, let's say that for whatever reason uh the nucleon contract gets uh gets terminated part way through well any money that would have been paid for their services they would have already provided all of that detailed information because i have to have it before i can get vlr to pay us and so any documentation they would provide us if i don't give that to you like i'm just not going to get paid for it but i'd still own nucleon so that that's where
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
19:03
we are one one one more as it relates
to let me just get drill on down a
little bit as it released relates to page two number six c travel cost will be built at cost is what it says yes sir and then you got like five hours of flight time but then it says any with travel in excess of eight hours per day is built at 350 an hour are you talking about flight time are you just talking about total travel so if somebody's decides they're gonna stay an extra day and it's over and above five hours are
they going to get paid 24 times 350 no what is it supposed to be flat time then or is it it says travel so I thought I'd be clever
Speaker 59
19:50
and have the contract up here in front of me but it's not it's not pulling from the internet right away but the way that that should read or the way that that's going to be is nobody's going to get paid for more than eight hours to travel in a day even if it takes them 10 or 12 or 15 that was my understanding of that contract let me see if i can't call it up real quick it
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
20:10
says with travel in excess of eight hours per day build it at 350 dollars an hour for each hour above eight hours oh i see see so that's that's what i'm saying the way i read that if somebody stays it's not just flat time it looks like to me that if and i guess i'd say 24 minus 8 so they're automatically going to get eight hours but if they stay they're going to get get the additional right she's got you a thank you very much and again the one i was looking at was just on i just want to
make sure that what this says is exactly what you all are
Speaker 60
20:44
meaning absolutely if it if it reads okay Okay, if it reads that way, where are we, what page are you on,
Speaker 98
20:59
sir? 226C. Oh, ma'am, I'm so sorry, this is the Paul Murphy agreement. I've been handed the Murphy agreement, if I could see
Speaker 100
21:10
the... Okay, thank you so much. all right so we're on c4
Speaker 102
21:15
2 we're on c1 oh i see we're in the murphy agreement we're not in the yes sir yes sir i'm sorry I'm sorry to
Speaker 60
21:27
be mad about this. I'm smarter about other things. Come on. Right here. Go ahead.
Speaker 104
21:53
Oh, okay. I stand corrected. All right. Yes. So this is
Speaker 61
22:00
a standard contract that Paul Murphy uses, and that's what
Speaker 59
22:05
he has in there because I think he uses that for his international clients. I can see your concern because it would concern me, too, if someone were to travel to Arkansas and then just bill 350 or whatever, 325, whatever it is, an hour while they're sleeping.
That's not going to happen here. I don't anticipate him ever having to fly to Arkansas to figure out financing for nuclear power plants. if it would make the center more comfortable i'm happy to
Speaker 108
22:33
prepare an amendment to that effect i we all
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
22:37
you you more than me we all know that in the end it
always relates back to that so it's just uh my personal opinion is be be as beneficial to you as it would us because it sounds like to me that we're going to get capped at 305 it's just it looks like that we're for sure going to pay
305 no matter what so i mean it just uh but if there's a chance that we only only could do 270 i would prefer that so anyway thank you mr
chair and miss thayer has just advised us that that regardless of this contract in terms of what this what we can pay you under the agreement it's up to eight hours it has to relate to the actual the actual time jill is that right in the actual travel expenses and so irrespective of this
if that's what they're going to be paid you might have to pay it but you're not going to be able to turn around
Speaker 59
23:38
and build that to the state correct that's why i'm very mindful of what the subcontractors are doing because as uh senator hickey said earlier like we have aligned interests on the subcontractors like the more they cost me like the less we get
Speaker 115
23:51
right co-chairman johnson you're recognized thank you mr
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
23:56
chairman um thank you mr matters we're not going to get too far in the weeds on this i do want to help clarify or try
to clarify something in uh and after talking with the senator mckee i think we are on the same page but when we talk about being technology neutral uh that would extend to parts of the work you're doing for us while this is about nuclear and we say technology neutral we think various parts of nuclear equation like a sodium cool reactor or whatever but but
anything that would be any kind of generating
item that would be applicable even if it were some other technology
outside of nuclear or something we haven't even thought of yet that still as a consultant you're neutral on that you're not uh we know what this is a study about nuclear power but anything related to any type of uh unforeseen technology say that someone has developed something that is new totally knew and we don't that you would you would still be neutral as far as the what we
don't want is any kind of inside deal that as a consultant somebody could point to this and say arkansas gave preference to somebody in any any kind of a procurement situation oh i see i see i don't anticipate
Speaker 59
25:27
that happening neither do i but i wanted to get that in the record no i appreciate that. Let me restate what I think the goal is, or at least what my intention is. And if I misstated or you want something different, please tell me. It is my intention that I will only
evaluate nuclear technologies. I will render no opinion on other non-nuclear technologies, fossil fuels, wind, solar, alleged fusion, whatever. I'll have no opinion on those. I'm only looking at currently existing nuclear fission technologies. Now, we will say which types we think are better in one area or another. So, for example, if there's a place that doesn't have water available for cooling, that's the sort of area that I would recommend a technology that allows for air-cooled condensers,
that sort of thing. So that's my plan on doing that. I'm not going to hold up one particular technology as being this is the one that everybody should use i'm not going to do that and you recognize that what might be
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
26:29
good in another area of the country might not be good in arkansas absolutely yes okay all right thank
Speaker 96
26:34
you mr metters thank you mr chairman senator mckay
Speaker 68
26:40
do you have a question are you ready for your motion i'm ready to make a
Speaker 122
26:45
motion all right that's saying no other questions let's hear your
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
26:48
motion thank you mr chairman uh so on the current uh contract i've moved that the committee approves Excel's request to utilize Murphy Energy and Infrastructure Consulting LLC as a subcontractor for its work on the nuclear energy feasibility study. I
believe we talked about putting a caveat in
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
27:08
there subject to the provision of those NDAs. Right. Adding, strengthening the confidentiality language and they can just work with Ms. Thayer on that.
Speaker 59
27:18
Yes. That's my motion. To make sure it's clear i'm 99 sure we have an existing nda and i would just
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
27:27
send that over to yeah so that that was my understanding they've got those existing ndas and they will provide those if not they will work with
mr to strengthen those that's what i mean but just to be clear my main concern on that is that we're that we're getting the benefit of this and that it's not that we're not paying for a product that then is utilized to for other third parties that this should be provided to the state to us
At some point, obviously, this information would be public, but they're doing the work to benefit this agreement that you have with us. Yes, Representative. And Ms.
Speaker 59
28:00
Thayer was very clear to me in the beginning about that.
All right. Okay. We have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. A second. Any discussion on the motion? All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? The motion passes. So then we're going to move to, I know we kind of touched on both agreements, but we'll
go ahead and move to the nucleon energy, which is in your packet at C3, or sorry, C4,
and there's some additional information at C3. Mr. Meadows, do you have any further comment on that? No, I do not. Okay. Any questions? Senator McKee?
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
28:48
just a motion at the proper time all right seeing no questions let's hear your motion move
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
28:53
the committee approves excels request to utilize nucleon energy as a subcontractor on
the nuclear feasibility study all right and similar provision related to the confidentiality okay and is there a second okay
we have a second any discussion all in favor say aye any opposed motion passes all
right I believe we have Senator McKee I think you have one other motion
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
29:20
you wanted to make chairman I move that we authorize the
Joint Energy Committee chairs to consider and approve any requests from Excel for additional subcontractors provided that the use of the
subcontractor does not cause an increase in Excel's maximum contract amount of three hundred five thousand that would just mean we don't have to come and meet every time
they need a new subcontractor any any question about that or I guess but let's we've got a motion is there a second okay we have a second any discussion senator Hickey you're recognized
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
29:54
will prior to that happening will it be sent out
Speaker 129
29:57
to the other members of the committee I amend my motion to
add notification to the committee thank you all right okay so sure
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
30:11
I would hope that it's very routine but just to protect the committee in the state we
will send it to all members of joint energy in case if someone sees a glitch that would require us to have a meeting we can always have a meeting but the idea that y'all all got to come to Little Rock just because we they want to add a subcontractor or hire a janitor or whatever you need to do, Mr. Meadows, we want to make
sure it's a policy thing and that we're still in control, but that we're not constantly having to have meetings over that. So if anybody disagrees with that, please say so. But that's the intent, and I appreciate the motion from Senator McKee,
haven't yet. Okay, so we have the motion, I guess it's essentially like a substitute motion. It's to authorize the Joint Energy Committee chairs to consider and approve any requests from Excel for additional subcontractors provided the use of the subcontractor does not cause an increase in Excel's maximum contract amount of $305,000 and provided that those proposed requests are provided to the committee prior to approval.
Chair
Unverified
31:24
All right, and I think we had a second. Senator Johnson? You're recognized. The nondisclosure needs to
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
31:32
apply the same as it has in these motions for Senator McKee's motion. Okay. So do
of substitute motion? obviously we've raised those issues and I would we can I think instruct Ms. Thayer
to make sure as these come forward that we have the broadest confidentiality protection we
Chair
Unverified
31:59
can have within the confines does that work okay any other
discussion all right all in favor say aye any opposed the motion passes that it Co-chairman anything else all right so you know further business the committee's adjourned thank
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Consideration to Approve the Minutes from the September 29, 2025, meeting [Exhibit B]
C. Approval of Proposed Subcontractor for EXCEL Related to the Technical Feasibility Study on New Nuclear Energy Generation [Exhibits C1-C5]
D. Other Business
E. Adjournment
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — ENERGY - JOINT, Dec 18, 2025 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT B - Joint Energy Minutes 09-29-2025 | Exhibit | 1 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C1 - EXCEL-MEIC contract final | Exhibit | 12 needs OCR | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C2 - Paul-Murphy-Profile-MEIC-Sept-2024 | Exhibit | 5 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C3 - Arkansas Resumes pdf redacted | Exhibit | 9 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C4 - Nucleon Energy - EXCEL Services - contract - final | Exhibit | 10 | Official source ↗ |
| EXHIBIT C5 - Nucleon - Arkansas work order - final | Exhibit | 2 | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Speaker 3
Speaker 7
Speaker 8
Speaker 13
Speaker 17
Speaker 4
Speaker 24
Speaker 26
Speaker 32
Speaker 11
Speaker 5
Speaker 35
Speaker 25
Speaker 47
Speaker 38
Representative Matthew J. Shepherd Chair
Unverified
Speaker 36
Speaker 58
Speaker 59
Speaker 60
Senator Matt McKee
Unverified
Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr
Unverified
Speaker 86
Speaker 98
Speaker 100
Speaker 102
Speaker 104
Speaker 61
Speaker 108
Speaker 115
Senator Mark Johnson
Unverified
Speaker 96
Speaker 68
Speaker 122
Speaker 129
Chair
Unverified