Legislative Joint Auditing
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Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
4:37
right let's go ahead and get started and call this
meeting to order if everybody could take their seats right first of all first item on the agenda is the adoption
of the minutes for December 12th do we have any questions?motion by Representativeladyman. Do I have a second Second by Representative Beck. all those are all in favor opposed
all right motion passes. Next we have the executive committee meetings and Senator Petty let's thank you
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
5:18
madam chairir. The executive committee met Thursday January8th2026 and adopted the minutes from the meeting held December 11,2025. Staff reported to the committee the audit and special report scheduled to be presented to the standing committees and the full legislative joint audit committee this month. Staff also noted one committee requested report that it is outstanding
and currently in progress in new business the committee directed staff to gather information regarding a request from Representative Eubanks for a special report to be considered in the February meeting. In other business a request for a study of fiscal impact statements was withdrawn with no additional business discussed, the meeting was adjourned. The next meeting of the committee is scheduled for Thursday, February 12,2026. we're at the call of the cheers. I move for adoption of
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
6:05
this report. do we need a second all right
let'sue McElroy all those in favor opposedport passes right next we have frompresentative Wwomack a report from City County Local Thank
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
6:27
you madam chair the committee adopted the minutes of the meeting held December 11,2025. the committee was updated on the status of the December31st,2022 delinquent private water and sewer audits
17 entities turn back funds have been reinstated after all required reports were submitted. The committee was also updated on the status of the December31st,2023 delinquent private water and sewer audits of the64 delinquent entities,59 have filed their reports since the Lljack meeting held on July10,2025. Officials for the town of Daisy were present to address questions regarding the town's failure to meet the requirements of Act709 of2021 for repaying the misused street funds the committee approved a motion for
the town to repay 10% of general fund revenue to the street fund annually until the balance is paid in full the committee reviewed 12 deferred reports and 85 current reports. Officials from nine entities were present to address repeat findings.ive previously deferred reports were filed and7 were deferred. Of the85 current reports revoked reviewed,8 were referred to prosecuting attorneys and the attorney general and one was certified to the governmental bonding boardard. The committee filed 82 current reports and
deferred three reports to allow officials to answer questions or provide further information at a future
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
7:53
meeting. Madam Chair I move for adoption of this report Thank you Representativewomack. do we have a sen a second? ndpresentativeladydyman any discussion all those in favor all
those opposed motion adoptedext we have a education standingittee onducation I believe Representative Duke you're giving that report.
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
8:16
thank you madam chairir. The committee met Thursday, January8,2026 and adopted the minutes from the meeting held December 11,2025. for higher education audit reports were included on the committee's agenda. University of Arkansas system officials were present to answer questions from the committee related to findings in their audit report. The report contained findings resulting from the system's internal audit division performing reviews at three member institutions after being notified by management of potential issues. The audit report was certified to the governmental bonding Board and
referred to the prosecuting attorney and attorney general. the audit report for the for northwest Arkansas Community College was excuse me was deferred to the ebruary meeting so officials from the college can be present to answer questions from the committee related to a repeat finding in the report. The committee filed three audit reports and deferred one audit report that were wrought before it. I moved to
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
9:09
adopt this report thank you Representative de. we have a second all right let'spresentativebr any discussion
those in favor those opposed motion adopted Next we have state agencies Representative
Representative Steve Unger
Unverified
9:28
Un 6 reports were on the committee's agenda yesterday wo reports with the following findings were presented The Department of Human Services reported instances of improper benefit payments to employees from the disaster supplement nutritionistancegrame and the medicaid program
and had a payee of $100,610,000 warrant that was cashed by someone other than the attended payee and had several issues regarding capital assets the department of Park's Heritage and tourism reported a loss of receipts at one of its museums and had an error in a couple of its change funds various agency staff members were present to report how the agencies intended to address the audit findings and to answer the committee's questions during the
meeting the committee filed for the reports the committee deferred the department of humanman Services and the department of Parks Heritage and tourism reports to the February meeting so that the agency could obtain additional details on the corrective action to the findings madam chairir, I
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
10:42
move that we adopt this report thank you Representative
unger. I need a second 2cond Representativeladymann in discussion those in favor say aye. those opposed motion is adopted
All right, ex ladies and gentlemen we have some guests here for a special report to review the scholarships if you could come forward oh excuse me let's see Charlie Camp if you could do the presentation first. thank you. If you'll
pull this presentation up in your packet they went
through quite a bit of effort to make sure we understood all this and it's in
Speaker 47
11:39
your packet and it has the frontowoint on there thank you madam chair this report is issued in response to a request for legislative audit to conduct a review of scholarships awarded expenditures made and grants received by the Charles W. Donaldson Scholar's academy at the University of Arkansas LittleRock.
the Donaldson academy is referred to as the program in the report and in this presentation the program had three components which were are discussed on page two of the report and listed on the slidegra goals included providing application assistance for the ACT increasing student confidence regarding college attendance and graduation building community and relationships and providing financial support through scholarships the program was funded by the
Pulaski Countypecial school district using $10 million in state desegregation funding and functioned as a collaborative effort amonguaLr philandersmith College and Pulaski Technical College with approval from the state and federal court. total revenues and expenditures for the life of the program are shown on exhibit one on page three the majority of funds were spent for salaries, wages and fringe benefits scholarships and administrative and other expenditures as shown on the slide
The first objective of this review was to document requirements and eligibility for students receiving scholarships. one of the program's goals was to provide a $2500 scholarship that was renewable up to four years to be eligible for the scholarships students had to remain in the program through graduation from pulaskipecial school district or Jacksonville North Platte excuse mejacksonville North Pulaski School District successfully complete three weekk summer bridge academy after their senior year
and enroll as a full time student at UALrhilander Smith orua pulaski Tech To renew the scholarship annually students were required to maintain full time enrollment maintain a cu cumulative GPA of at least 2.5 and complete at least 27 hours in the first academic year and30 hours each year thereafter. During the review period the program awarded 1.87 million in
scholarships to a total of379 students and 116 of these students graduated from college. the total number of students receiving scholarships amount of scholarships awarded and number of students graduated are provided an exhibit two on the slide and page four of the report it should be noted that scholarship awards documented in student files as shown in this exhibit did not agree with the expenditures recorded in the general ledger due in part to misclassification of expenditures
Legislative audit tested 10% of students who participated in the program for scholarship eligibility and noted exceptions for32 of the39 students tested as shown on the slide these exceptions include scholarships awarded in excess of the maximum award of $10,000 as well as scholarships awarded to students who did not complete the required number of enrollment hours did not meet GPA requirements were enrolled longer than four years and we're not enrolled full time. of the350,000 dollars in
scholarship awards tested nearly32% were awarded to ineligible students furthermore or further information is provided in exhibit three on page ive of the report. The second objective was to assist whether assess whether expenditures were properly authorized and documented as well as in agreement with the general ledger. a disbursement's test was conducted for the review period excluding payroll expenditures of 147 disbursements tested
totaling $1.9 million. We noted 124 exceptions as shown on the slide these exceptions include lack of proper authorization for payment, lack of proper documentation and clerical inaccuracies.dditionally we cannot determine disposition of two capital assets after the program's closure disbursements tested were properly posted to the general ledgers The third objective was to identify funding and grants obtained by the program and
determine if funds were expended for allowable purposes. The program received a50,000 dollars grant from the central Arkansas planning and Development district which was used to fund travel for students and faculty to Spain and Morocco in 20fi5. This trip was to fulfill the study abroad in global leadership component of the program and the itinaryries is provided in appendix A. ri p late d costs total of over $89,000 and funds were properly expended for the purposes outlined in the grant
a portion of the funding provided touaLr by ADE was used to purchase supplies books ACT testing programs curriculum and UALR catering services for the program Saturday academy grant funds were awarded to UALr therefore compliance with grant guidelines was the responsibility of UaLR. The fourth and final objective was to determine expenditure categories types and amounts as
well as examined documentation for cultural and social activities and events funded by the program. Appendix B provides a list of total expenditures by general ledger account for the life of the program and illustrates the decline in activity beginning in fiscal year 220 due to the COVId-19 pandemic ud ent s participating in the program attended cultural and social activities and events that were funded by the $10 million from Claskypecial school district and the50,000 dollars grant from CApdd
examples of activities are listed on the slide and provided in appendices C andd of the report this concludes my presentation management response from UALR has provided in appendix E philander Smith andua Pulaski Tech were provided an opportunity to respond to the report and did not provide a response to ALA representatives
Speaker 48
18:10
from UALR are present to respond to committee questions. thank you and thank you for that
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
18:21
overview it looks like there was a lot of work done on that and I
appreciate that also want to thank Representative Springer for asking the question that brought this information to light let's
first bring folks down from UaLR that have come and are they're here to answer some questions if you could come forward and I would ask you to stand
OK, if you would we're gonna swear you in if you would state your name employer
Speaker 62
19:09
and position field right my little rock Hi Alan Stan University Arkansas a littlettle thank you Good morning Charlesyford right we're gonna
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
19:17
ask the witnesses to stand you've stated your name. if you would raise your right hand I do solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony I'm about to
give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you and thank you for coming I want to remind the committee members these folks were not in charge of the program but they are here to give information about the program so I will let you up
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
19:49
the board is lighting up Representative beatty thank you madam chairir. I I guess my question goes back and it may be a question for staff or for the folks at the table on
on page two I see and understand that it states all employees materially involved in this program including the director no longer employed by UaLR and wen't unavailable for interview. My question is who are these individuals and where are they in state government now? are they still involved somewhere are they in charge of state funds and some other entity or organization in the state and if so we need to be looking at what these folks are doing so
can you give me names and who the responsible people were
Speaker 68
20:33
thank you sir. Charlesyford associate general counsel vice chancellor Alan Stanley may may fill in some information here. my understanding to your question are the individuals referenced in this report still employed in state government my understanding is no there was an individual in Allan correct me if I'm wrong, Amber Smith who was aualitterac employee I believe. assigned to the program she is a former employee she she no longer works for UAL
R I'm not sure Allan if you know the names of the other individuals but the the program staff
Speaker 72
21:14
are no longer employed at ULr as stated in the report employee but she has is deceased
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
21:20
yeahir if you could pull into the microphone so we can hear you and and give
Speaker 77
21:27
us first and last names umvinne Owens yes Laverne Owens forgive me. Laverne Owens but she's no longer I mean she's deceased so
was the other party and Mia Phillips and she's no longer employed with the state.
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
21:45
so when you say no longer employed with the state or are you specifically referring to your institution? No she's no longer
Speaker 77
21:51
is my understanding she's no longer in the state of Arkansas even last last knowledge that I'm aware of you know with
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
22:00
some some leniency I I guess my deal is after looking at this report I think any member that looks at this report would be outraged. I think any of our constituents
and members in the state that see the waste of money that was supposed to go and encourage students to attend college and be successful students if anything it I mean this is just an embarrassment and a total waste of money I mean out of out of $10 million what 1.8 million actually went to students and the rest were field trips and and and nice hotel stays and trips abroad. what a joke. the other thing I would say is this a lot of information
for us to to digest and review. So I would hope that this committee and and and voting members committee would hold this report and give members time to dissect this and and to break it down and look and see what the failures were so I I would request that member of the committee would take that action at such time that that that motion would be proper. thank
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
23:02
you madam chairir. thank you and yes we will, I will entertain that motion at the proper time. umpresentativeburkes
Speaker 81
23:12
would like some more time to review this. I do have a question while we have the witnesses here over the period of time this is 10 years that these funds are being administered and I understand that these staff members Amber Smith, Owens and Phillips are no longer here. Was there anybody else within the organization though overseeing the expenditure of these funds and at any time during
Speaker 82
23:28
the 10 years did anybody look at this and say wait this might not be Well I I can speak to
Speaker 84
23:38
some of that ma'am and I I would start
by saying that the
Speaker 68
23:45
program initiated in 2014 by order of the federal court that's presiding over the desegregation case still pending in the eastern district federal court the court as well received regular progress reports and approve the winddown and ultimate end of the program in 2024 so so there was that continual oversight the the program was treated and
correct me if I'm wrong uhvC Stanley as a sponsored research program a sponsored program meaning external funding these funds that were approved to pass touaLR by the federal court and so there was oversight institutionally through the sponsored research division so guess a quick follow up
Speaker 85
24:30
I saw the the management response. there were two items that there was not a response to do you have a response today to those two items?
Speaker 81
24:45
and specifically that was that's on the in exhibit E b ject ive 3 and4.bjective3 other funding grants obtained
Speaker 84
24:55
and whether these funds were expended for allowable purposes the institution had no additional information to
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
25:02
provide with respect to those objectives thank
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
25:05
you senator Petty you've had a follow up question thank you madam chairir. So going back to your statement regarding the the federal court
was there periodic accounting to the federal court and if so what was the nature of that the details
Speaker 84
25:23
etc. of of that reporting to the court thank you sir and and there was I
Speaker 68
25:29
would say while the program was active that is when cohorts of students were being admitted from 2014 through 202 I believe with the 2020 2021 COVID year being the last year the incoming students were admitted the federal court I I think I'd have to consult the
report here received a status reports I think totaling7 filed on approximately an annual basis by the intervenors in that
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
25:57
case I have a follow up question that you mentioned sponsored research. Is there
some follow up on that whereas the research the paper, the documentation. I'm thinking research like we did in
Speaker 94
26:13
graduate school or postgrad. yeah so for this particular program there wouldn't have been any
research documentation along with it because the the objectives of the program and the documentation that that office had available to them did not provide any guidelines to provide metrics or data those reports were provided by the intervenors based on the guidelines that were not housed at the university
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
26:38
or in that office. so the only thing we know for sure is379
students participated and at the conclusion only after 10 years in this amount of money
only 116 actually graduated college either from
UALR or Pulaski Tech orhilandersmith. All
right. umpresentative Richardson thank you madam
Scott Richardson
Unverified
27:06
chairir. I appreciate you guys being here. I know this was outside of your oversight necessarily but I did want to speak to the oversight and go back to Representative Burke's question make sure I have a clear understanding of how something like this could be
missed so so you're we're saying that the funding was approved through or oversaw by an external source the judge the the court's judicial system and so there's no spending authority requirements for these types of programs within the UFA's purview there's no review the UFA isn't looking at that money at
Speaker 84
27:46
all so accurate noir, I don't think that's accurate. this program again
Speaker 68
27:54
was treated internally as a sponsored program with the external funds from Pulasia Countypecial School District the office of Research and Sponsoredgrams at UaLR review the expenditures per programme guidelines as funds were issued also the office of Financial aid would have been packaging any scholarships issuing them to students making sure those student s that you know had met eligibility requirements be it admission requirements enrollment requirements program
requirements and and there were also program staff employed by ULR the individuals we mentioned earlier who were in regular contact with with program participants
Scott Richardson
Unverified
28:36
so follow up so if I understand you then whoever was responsible for overseeing the expenditures of the specific they were looking at the specific program guidelines and from that they felt like that the expenditures were within the guidelines
Speaker 84
28:56
I can't speak to that personally but that's my understanding yes, I
Speaker 68
29:00
mean the the program staff were administering the program per the guidelines that have been approved by the federal court and that's a legislative audit
Scott Richardson
Unverified
29:08
staff reviewed for this report. OK so just want to get to the bottom of that and make sure I understand what you're saying so the the guidelines were presented to someone that's currently employed with Asu or was at least at that time they reviewed those guidelines and determined that these expenditures
Speaker 84
29:29
were OKok and within those guidelines that's my understanding but again none none of the people
Speaker 68
29:35
at the table here were in in these roles at the time I do know that there
Scott Richardson
Unverified
29:43
are program staff reviewing the expenditures were the programme staff that were there at that time the individuals that were viewing the expenses were those in are those individuals still with the UA or
Speaker 110
29:53
excuse me ASsu orua litter rock I'm sorry no sir they are not
so they're not here either ok thank you thank you
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
30:05
Representative Richardson. Representative Long the commander chairman
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
30:09
y'all mentioned earlier that several of the people that were involved in this were no longer employed by the state I was wondering were they fired or did they resign? I'm not sure of the answer to that yeah I heard the one person passed away but there was one
about the others if you could find out and get let us know Id I appreciate that because that kind of makes a difference to me and the second thing was you mentioned this program had wound down
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
30:49
or is there any other program similar to this that's ongoing no thank y'all Representative Brown thank you madam chair I'm reading here under the portion results of review
objective one it says one of the goals of the program was to provide $252,500 scholarship that was renewable up to four years therefore eligible students could receive a maximum amount of $10,000 to be eligible. they had to remain in the program through graduation from Pullu Countypecial school district or Jacksonville North Pulaski and just to be perfectly open about all this I represent both districts not the whole district but
portions.ccessfully complete the three week SBA after their senior year and enroll as full-time students at Ul. So when it says remain in the program through graduation from the high school. does that mean they received the $2500 while in high school or when they enrolled full time at one of
Speaker 68
31:51
these colleges thank you ma'am to my knowledge the the $2500 was a scholarship awarded only after the student's matriculated to one of these
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
32:02
institutions and I assume a serious as this
desegregation program has been going is and as long as it has gone on $100 million from these school districts was a sacrifice and the goal was to enhance their the student's academics and I know those people are no longer with you but I'm just
wondering why they thought trips to New York City and madrid of course we had to pay the faculty to go
with them so none of those faculty are still withuaLr? uhm I'm
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
32:54
said that the report says that the people involved in the program are no longer employed think that referred to program
Speaker 68
33:03
staff not necessarily faculty some of whom
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
33:08
may may still be at Ua litter
it looks like everybody had a good time but I just wonder how how enhanced the academic abilities of the students you know how enhan how much they were enhanced this is a sad report and I guess my I want to follow up
with a couple of other of my colleagues do we have better controls on existing programs right now I I would really like to be assured
Speaker 84
33:45
that with this kind of foolishness is not continuing. as stated in the management response
Speaker 68
33:51
I I believe there are two answers there the sponsored program review process has been strengthened I think there is no longer Allen correct me if I'm wrong, no longer a dollar
threshold above which the the expendituresre would be reviewed I believe sponsored research now reviews all such expenditures for eligibility also scholarship awarding is now cent ral ized thank you no further questions at this time. Thank you
Speaker 128
34:17
Representative Brown. umpresentative Matt Brown thank you madam
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
34:22
chairir. when did Euler first have an inkling
Speaker 133
34:26
that there was some problem in this thing did y'all catch this before or was it when the audit happened?
Speaker 77
34:45
so we we as we were after when we get to getting close to the COVID period yes we we were looking at the expenditures then but we get there was a decision to turn back the unspent funds so we didn't spend the full 10 million was not spent and we
returned back was at 1 point1.6 million back to Pulaski Specialist County School District if I'm not mistaken on that and so we had we did start to strengthen our internal controls around just expenses all around but this particular program we we're relying on those program administrators to for the allowability
Speaker 94
35:42
of those expenses based on the information they
had regarding the objectives of that program
Speaker 77
35:51
and so you know that was their determination that these expenditures were allowable under the under the terms of that of the program to to provide cultural experiences and things of that nature for those students who are participating in this program. follow up madam ok,
Speaker 133
36:11
I'm sorry I'm I'm pretty stupid so I didn't really quite quite understand the question so is it the institution's position that
Speaker 134
36:22
even though it turned money back that everything that happened was ok because it was allowable under the terms of the program I mean kind of what's what are we arguing about Ca I got to tell you taking people to magic Springs don't seem allowable under any program to me or like this airfare to Spain you know coming up to like $1600 a pop. I mean are we flying these people you know premium economy I mean what's the none
Speaker 84
36:46
of this smells right but is the institution's position that it was all ok sir and I appreciate the question the the the program
Speaker 68
36:53
rules and I believe this is reflected in the legislative audit report allowed for such student experience activities the the study abroad I think was actually paid for through an external grant that the program pulled down the the turn back of funds as well was by motion to the federal courtua Litterock did not file that motion the involved school districts did so a a request was made to the federal court that originally authorized the program to wind it down and allow the disbursement of funds back to the school districts
Speaker 134
37:23
which that court approved so it wasn't thatuaLR turned this money over willingly it was
Speaker 84
37:29
that it was forced to turn it back over there was a joint motion by the school districts
Speaker 68
37:35
lasci County Special and Jacksonville Northulaski to the federal court
Speaker 117
37:39
requesting that the that the funds be returned to the
Speaker 147
37:43
school districts thank you madam chair thank you Representative dalby thank you madam Chair. This question is for staff my question is has this report
been turned over to the attorney general's office and our federal prosecutor's office to look at or is it or is it you waiting action from this committee to get that turned over to the proper authorities to investigate under their fraud
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
38:10
units no ma'am that has not been done that is something we can
suggest in this committee OK I would suggest that thank you I'll take that in a as a motion at the proper time. next up we have Representative
Beck then Senator Stone, Representative Brown and Representative
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
38:28
Rye. Representative Beck thank you madam chairir I I was just playing with some numbers here a little bit and it seems like a lot of the problem with the program was basically I I did a percentage in other words from each institution the percentage of students that actually completed versus it didn't complete and it it although it's not a direct correlation it is a very close correlation to the next page
number over there which is the amount of of ineligible scholarships that were awarded so it almost looks like the biggest problem with your program was that there were people in there that shouldn't have been in there and those people didn't complete so I mean I'm I'm just I I guess I I'll ask for any comments that you have on that but it it actually looks like that that's where the problem was if we ever gonna do this again that would be a a great place to look I don't know if you have any comments about that
Speaker 68
39:33
your comments that the the program overall especially with regard to scholarships I think was designed as a student achievement initiative to help encourage students who who might have been struggling academically and otherwise not interested in applying or graduating from college to to secure their attendance and increase
Speaker 84
39:50
the likelihood that they graduated I think what we've seen and some of the the audit reporting is that
Speaker 68
40:00
students who were initially eligible for the scholarships dropped below the minimum GPA or drop below the the minimum credit hour requirements and were awarded scholarships I I suspect in an attempt to retain them as students and to ensure that
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
40:19
they did not drop out just a quick follow up so so you're saying that what happened was you might need to correct me I
might be wrong about this but if I didn't understand but what you're saying is that in the program itu the ineligible students where are the eligible students were were basically not they were the the I guess the credentials or whatever were dropped just to keep them in the program is that what you're saying no
Speaker 84
40:53
sir that that's not what I intended to say. I think I I I suspect I do not know this for
a fact but as some of the students who were initially eligible in the sense that they met the GPA and the creditor requirements those students might over the the course of their attendance at at college have dropped below
Speaker 68
41:14
the minimum GPA and and we've seen from this report that they received that next scholarship likely in an attempt to keep them as students and and ensure that they did not drop out in order for them to graduate which was the ultimate goal. thank you
Speaker 158
41:37
There aren't words. p re s ent ative Brown I'm sorry
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
41:47
that's me thank you madam chair I have one other request I would really like
to hear from the faculty members who designed the program I understand the administrators are gone, but faculty designed the program and I believe we need some accountability from those faculty members
I would like to hear from them next
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
42:18
time thank you thank you ry p re s ent ative Ry yes thank you madam Chairman. on page four I saw something that threw up a red flag to me and at the bottom it says during the review period the program awarded 11.87 million in scholarships to379 students
of whom 116 graduated from college there's does that not
seem like a mighty low figure we we do
Speaker 84
42:52
not contest those numbers I mean I think those are accurate figures but that
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
42:58
would only be about30%. that sounds correct sir
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
43:11
it just seems awful low thank you madam Chairman. thank youpresentative Rye. thank
Senator Matt Stone
Unverified
43:18
your points well taken. Senator Stone I have two questions. Do we have a total amount that may have been said and over and overlooked at or didn't hear it but what was the total amount of money that was spent outside of the
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
43:31
parameters of the program I think the whole program was 8.5 million. the total allotted was 10 and the courts they've turned a.5 million back to the courts in general figures
Senator Matt Stone
Unverified
43:44
know they turned back 1.6 that wasn't spent some of the money that was spent was spent properly on scholarships but what money was spent improperly that do we have a total on that sir the reason why I'm asking I'm just sitting here thinking you know in county and municipalities it's just week after month after month we have counties and cities receive money to their road fund this dedicated to that account then they improperly spend it
and when they do they have to take revenue from their general account to replace it. umm I'm sitting there thinking I almost see the same scenario here because really what I'm hearing right now something happened money was misspent oops everybody's gone and students have been denied scholarship money I'm almost thinking we need to even to pursue the
criminal prosecution that was mentioned a while ago but we need to determine how much was spent under the purview ofuaLr and let them make that program, let that money be made up out of their budget and put it back in there so the students who were denied their scholarships and could have gone to school didn't we'll take that under
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
45:06
advisement I think that's one reason umpresentative beatty wanted this report held so we could digest it a little bit better and dig into the numbers a
little bit better before moving forward thank
you also want it noted that UALR sent representatives to try to answer these questions whereashilandersmith College in Pulaski County Technical did not so Irec we have a hand in the
audience you're from Phillander Smith all right. would you join us at the table please and state your name.
Speaker 176
45:58
I'm Latanya Hayes and I'm the interim CFfo athilander. right. would you please raise your right
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
46:04
hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you ma'am thank you for joining
us. we'll continue with the questions. Any any other additional questions? ma'am since you Senator Petty
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
46:29
thank you madam chair. I would just give you the the opportunity to see if there's anything in addition you've heard their testimony if there's anything new or different or in addition that occurred at your institution just maybe get ahead
Speaker 175
46:48
of any of the questions that might be there yes so the only thing I can add is that athilander Smith that we did not do eligibility for the program that we confirmed enrollment and
then did an invoice based on the students that were given to us as participants in the program so we did not
Scott Richardson
Unverified
47:14
do eligibility thank you for that clarification umpresentative Richardson thank you madam chairir. just want to ask the same question who was responsible for
Speaker 175
47:22
review of the expenditures at the your school so that would have been the business office and so for this program we treated it
as an outside scholarship and so we received the funds we did a request to receive the funds but the only thing we did was verify enrollment so those eligibility requirements I went back and looked at all the documentation we had on file for the program and we didn't have any of
Representative Steve Unger
Unverified
47:53
that so all we did was verify enrollment. thank you're welcome Representative Unger within this program was there any single person that was in charge of review
Speaker 84
48:03
and accountability I'm not sure the answer to that. I believe the answer is no as far as a single person
Representative Steve Unger
Unverified
48:25
but but I'm not s ign ed is a camel and so this is good intentions met a pot of money and came out with bad results
and I think there just needs to be a better way going forward it's had one person who's a point of contact who owns this and could
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
48:45
put their name on the blame line thank you. thank youpresentative Unger. any
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
48:55
other questions senator Petty? Thank you madam chair. I uhm not making any excuses for anything that has been said or done this obviously if you followed
the the federal lawsuit and desegregation is very complicated and I think I heard both representatives that were here indicate that this was treated as an outside scholarship as opposed to internal or or state funding and so what I'd like to see since it sounds like we may table it. I'd like to see staff pull together the the federal the the judge's order or or
and see if we can garner anything from from that it just by way of summary since we're going to have a little time to review that because as just quite frankly wasteful as its as this might seem if it was intended to comply with a a judge's order to encourage or or recruit or entice students that might not otherwise come and and this is what they decided to do was best then
in reality, nobody has done and and even even our audit report here says that that most of these components were were generally complied with and so I'd like to see a little bit more. I don't want to I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on the the the federal judge order but I think it might be helpful to know what they were told to do and and whether we can determine whether or not that was the highest and best use of the of that order obviously a judge felt like for a period of time at least that it was complying
with his order. I don't know what kind of details in the report and maybe that's a follow up. we could get a copy of the report to the court or something if you don't mind staff to to try to get a sample of one of those reports to the court but I just, I think that there's a lot of information here some is doesn't at least in the the public view doesn't sound very helpful doesn't sound very like it was the highest and best use of of these dollars but but I
think if we're going to pursue this further I think we need to hear what the the man or woman that that ordered this to be established said and how he required reporting periodically for us. So if you could do that staff that would be great thank you
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
51:28
senator Petty and we have a couple more questions in the queue Representativeladydyman then Senator English. Representativeladyman
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
51:37
thank you madam chair I was just looking on page 4 and5
so there's three institutions involved here UaLRhilander Smith and Pulaskiick and when you look at the grad the number of students that graduated out of that small number pulaski graduated56% of the students that were in the program which is not really a very bad number really and uhhilander
Smith39%ulR only graduated 27%. and then also when you look at students awarded over the maximum amount pulaski Tech had none Flandersmith only had two u u a L R had 20 so I think it would be interesting to know this money that was maybe fraudulently spent we don't know for sure unless the court weighs in but is there any way we know how
much of the money was spent by which institution is that something we could see or is
Speaker 194
52:56
it in the report we can get back to you on that but I believe
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
52:59
we could we could get that for sure I think that would be something that the committee would be interested
Speaker 24
53:05
in you could send that in to the chairman
Senator Jane English
Unverified
53:07
thank you sir that would be very helpful Senator English thank you as I go back and think about this and my friend over here to the right of me probably can help me along a little bit
it seems to me that this was a negotiated settlement as part of of the state no longer paying the70 million dollars in desegregation funds and that this was a requirement on the part of can't I don't can't remember the name of the group but to be able to move out of that uh70 million dollars settlement so
this was just a program $10 million set up that the Pulaski Countypecial school district had to put up in order to be able to help students move along but as I remember it and I certainly don't remember anybody ever talking about all of these kinds of expenditures the idea was to help kids move from from high school or stay in high school and move on to college and I think most everybody concerned
thought that that was exactly what we were going to be doing was helping kids move from high school stay in high school and move on to collegeer not all the rest of these things but I I honestly believe it was a pot of money if federal government a federal judge agreed to it. Everybody agreed to it and then they had to plop it someplace and that place they plopped it was ended up being atuaOR and obviously there wasn't a whole lot of control over what was going on with those dollars.
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
54:56
Senator I think you're exactly correct and I'm I'm a little concerned when I see things like hotels in New Orleans Marriott and LittleRock we're in LittleRock. I don't know why we're staying in a hotel there. Capitol Hotel, Hotelybee Island, ommnilemaison Airbnb's and there's just and then you look at the restaurants plus we paid for catering so there's a lot of questions that I'm sure you're wanting to ask but we'd like to have some
answers to it too so thank you for pointing that out umpresentativeburkes Hugh
Speaker 80
55:31
at this time I would make a motion that we table this until our next meeting so we all have a
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
55:40
chance to get the answers to these questions thank you that is a proper motion all in favor or excuse me, discussion all right all in favor andpresentativeladydyman second opposed OK, thank you
we will table this and do some more homework. Thank you. I'd like to thank you
all for being here today and taking that time and we look forward to seeing you again. all
right next on the agenda we have a special report I'm sorry senatorhammer
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
56:10
you popped up thank you mayor Chair. would the chair instruct staff to send a strong
letter of encouragement to the third institution that was not here that they are expected at the next meeting, please. thank you
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
56:24
that's duly noted all right next up we have a special report and I
believe we have some folks here would you please come to the table OK first we need to recognize Micchelee Aley to give the report and then we'll have folks come to the table.
Speaker 202
56:46
Micchelee, Miss Ashley thank you madam chairir. This report is issued to provide this committee a summary of the disposition of matters referred to the prosecuting attorneys and the attorney general for the calendar year 2024.
Arkansas Co provided an appendix A requires the legislative order to notify the applicable prosecutor and the attorney general of unauthorized disbursements are unaccounted for funds or property where report findings related to the prosecuting attorney's office are also referred to the attorney general. prosecutors and the attorney general are required to submit a disposition report of matters referred and then legislative audit compiles the report that is being presented today. Arkansas code directs the legislative auditor to notify
the Arkansas governmental Bonding Board of audit reports reflecting improper transactions for which a public official, officer or an employee may be liable. Entities are required to meet a $2500 deductible per occurrence before payment is made by the bond board and the Fidelity bomb programme coverage limit is300,000 dollars per occurrence. this slide reflects an example of matters referred receipts not deposited, missing assets, unauthorized or undocumented
disbursements unauthorized payments, unauthorized bank withdrawals, conflict of interest issues, noncompliance with the public purpose doctrine and potential violation of the speed trap law. as shown on the screen using the fifth judicial district as an example, each judicial district's report page includes a map identifying the counties located in the district in addition, matters referred or detailed individually by the counties in the judicial district, the prosecute and attorney, the governmental
entity involved the year the matter was referred and the status according to the prosecutor or the attorney general paymentyment by the bond trust fund is also indicated when applicable. Presented in exhibit three on pages6 and7 of the report is a summary organized by judicial district as reflected in this exhibit 164 matters were referred ir9 matters are under review Criminal charges were filed in 28 of the matters referred.
ive of those cases are pending in court. hree cases were dismissed and 20 cases resulted in a conviction and a court-ordered sentence. Exhibit4 on page A lists all the matters referred for which a conviction was obtained our defendants were incarcerated and received probation upon release.1el defendants received probation only and four defendants received a suspended imposition of sentence.
also shown in exhibit4, all 20 defendants were ordered to pay fines, fees and court costs totaling over 18,000 dollars.18 defendants were ordered to pay restitution totaling just under789,000 dollars and five defendants were ordered to pay audit costs totaling over52,000. of the 20 matters for which a conviction was obtained, the bond trust fund paid claims to three entities as shown on the slide and noted on pages 1961
and77 of the report Additionally,11 claims are pending with the bond board.4 claims were below the deductible or restitution was paid in full and two were governmental entities that are not covered by the bond programme. this concludes my presentation on the disposition of matters referred a representative from the office of prosecutor coordinator and attorney general's office is available to answer any committee questions.
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:00:41
Thank you this represents a lot of work and a lot of money that's been recovered as well as a lot of money lost we have guests with us today Bog Mattinhand with prosecuting coordinator's office Wayne
Bewley or Booy I'm not sure how to say that Danhu and David Ethridge if
y'all could come in today appreciate it oh changed that with the ag's office, Jeff Chandler and
if you could introduce yourself for the record Gentlemen, let me swear you in if you could state each of you state your name
Speaker 204
1:02:00
We could start with you if you could state your name David Etheridge BobmcMahon Jeff Chandler view OK thank you sir. if you
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:02:07
would raise your right hand I do solemnly swear affirm that the testimony I'm about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you gentlemen thank you for being here if you if any of
you would like to give an opening statement this is a lot of information and help us understand and digest it.
Speaker 208
1:02:34
madam chair Bob Mcahon, prosecutor coordinator representing the prosecutors association this report is done every year and I come as a representative of the prosecutor's association for the new members and usually have with me the our president or past president our policy in the past has been I will try to answer any general questions that I can I may be familiar with but if there is a specific audit that you have questions about we always you know contact staff and see so that I can have that prosecuting attorney or that deputy prosecuting attorney show up to to to answer the specific questions audit does
a tremendous job of putting this stuff together but one thing you need to understand is it's very different you know their job is to find all the things that Michelee outlined in the report and then it's up to the prosecuting attorney or the attorney general's office when we prosecute one of those cases to go much further than that we have to determine you know to have probable cause to make an arrest and then we have to be able to to prosecute somebody and prove beyond a reasonable doubt so the standards of audit finding money missing and what the prosecutors or the attorney general has to do is very different but with that just general statement about how we do things
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:03:35
we'll be happy to answer any specific questions I do have one question just to give some background on the bond trust fund it's been used a number of times who pays for that trust fund
Speaker 207
1:03:49
is that something the cities pay madam chair I do not know
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:03:52
the answer to that question how that program works staff does hang on
Speaker 212
1:03:56
just a c Mr White thank you for the question so the bond trust fund it's it's a percentage of turnback in regard to some of the municipalities and counties
there's a portion taken off prior to them receiving their funds that money then goes into a pot that's collected at the state level it's the bond trusts fund that is a Fidelity bond to help ensure if there's theft by employees of those entities that there's coverage for those thefts from that program. thank
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
1:04:26
you Representative Duke thank you madam chair and this question may be to staff initially but when when you read through the report and the responses that we get from prosecuting attorneys I guess
number one is this are those summaries of what they sent or is that literally what they sent in a
Speaker 32
1:04:47
response to what they did it's a very lengthy response then we will provide a summary of that but if not if it's something you know within a paragraph then we cite it verbatim what they send in. OK but
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
1:04:59
obviously you're giving the you're you're gonna grab the highlights in the really important pieces of it so I guess turning to you all one of the things that
I found a little bit frustrating as I went through the report is there's such a variance of information that we get from different prosecuting attorneys and when you're sitting on those subcommittees and things get referred or you come in here and they get referred and and you're wondering what happened next and then you of course obviously it's a space of time before we see this report but it is a little I mean I had made several notes in here well was there any kind of restitution made? why did they not choose and and I don't know the answers to that
and some but some in in some of these districts we get a little bit more thorough responses then we get in others and so I would at least find it helpful to have a little bit more thorough response because I have questions on several of them whenever they're not they didn't pursue the charges they didn't think one of them see if this is the one that said that didn't rise to the concern of the expenditures to the rise to the level of criminal activity and like I get it there's smaller amounts but smaller amounts of other people's money matter and in school districts and and
areas that are really small, those percentages although may not be very big to springdale can be very very large to a much smaller district and to the community. so it it I get that they can't chase down everything and they have to make choices or maybe there's not stuff involved but like my question here was was there any effort to get this employee to reimburse the money even if you don't pursue criminal and that wed and I don't know if you all don't know the answer to that I mean I understand that you're not going to know the specifics on each of these but that is something I would like to have a
little bit more insight on as we read through at the end if if if they have that information or even if the school district didn't pursue it or we weren't able to do it just to know was there any effort even though it's a small a smaller amount of money and maybe you can't get all the ducks in a row Did any of these people because some of these are superintendents and some of these are a little mistakes but goodness gracious if if they made an error I would hope they would have the character especially their employed in the state of Arkansas. oh ok well I'm going to pay that back we're gonna work out a plan to pay that back
so that is I don't want to dig through and thank you for the leniency here but don't I don't want to I guess go
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:07:20
through all the different ones where I have questions I'm happy to share that with staff Representative Duke, I don't think it's a bad idea if you have
questions on specific issues if you can go to the page number and let them answer those questions that's why we have this wealth of information here so if you want to
take a moment and put together two or three that you have questions on I think that's perfectly appropriate now is the time and place. OK well
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
1:07:40
I've got I will just give the highlight one that I just had pulled up here and then I'll get
out of the queue and I know there's some other questions but again it was a small amount but on page 27 onRandolphRandolph County and the manynard school district. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right so my apologies that's where I quoted that part from it did not rise to the level and so then my question just was on that overpaid amount was there any effort to try and get a repayment by the district or by anybody else just because they know it happened but maybe you can't prosecute it. I understand you may not have the answer to that but that was one of them.
Speaker 208
1:08:15
Representative thank you for the question and and and that's that this is a great example of something that we do not have to example you know I I would guess that every specific prosecutor or deputy that handled any one of these cases would be able to to by looking at their file be able to
Speaker 210
1:08:28
answer those those good questions that you asked I am I am sure that the thorough you know study of the case would would allow them to answer that every one of those questions on every particular case I just don't have that information on but I'll be happy to to get that for you on a specific case or
have the prosecutor or deputy either get the information to me to where I could answer your question or have them come to to a future meeting but I I feel fairly comfortable that the prosecutors in the EagG's office that handled those cases would be able to answer those cases or those questions on each specific case I just don't know ins in specifics to
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
1:09:01
that one what the answer is appreciate that and understand that and maybe just from our perspective or at least from mine if they would include in their reports maybe a little bit more of those details so that we would have cause that closure I think is important especially for members of this committee s but also for the people that
we represent to be able to say ok this is what ended up happening and even if it's unfortunately couldn't chase it down, couldn't get it reimbursed but we were able to I guess thoroughly exhaust every option that we had and I will jump back in and let somebody else and they'll come
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:09:35
back. Questions are the best thing so don't don't worry about that senator
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:09:39
hammer thank you you gentlemen have a copy of the report in front of you great draw your attention to page se
and I just want to make sure I'm interpreting the numbers correctly number of matters referred 164, you got 20 convictions,5 pending,3 that were acquitted and dismissed and then 96 charges not filed the percentage of the matters referred against the matters that charges were not filed that seems to be and this is as long as I've been down here there's been ongoing discussion
but 96 out of 164 is a pretty high number so am I misinterpreting the numbers first of all or am I accurate in my interpretation.enator I don't want to
Speaker 208
1:10:27
speak for everybody else but I think you're you're accurate in your numbers to to some extent in the there is 164 and only 96 been prosecuted but when you do the math I think you also have to take into consideration that they're39 other cases pending so those3 those39 cases may get added to the 28 that were prosecuted or they may not but your numbers are
Speaker 219
1:10:50
correct that's just that we we always want to consider their thir9 pending so it kind of you know skews our numbers a little bit if you're just gonna say the ones that
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:10:59
have gone to trial now compared to the number that were presented to both of our offices so potentially the39 let's in a perfect world the39 may come off of the 96 charges not filed yet if you determine of those th39 under review that there are you have the ability to prosecute they could come off the 96 I think the39 would come off the
Speaker 208
1:11:23
164 because the 96 or I guess the ir the thirty9 could be added to either the conviction or the charge is not filed so the39 will come off some of the 164 but I don't
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:11:35
know specifically what column does that makes sense but the the charge is not filed you've determined that based on what you were given that there was not enough to pursue charging them is that a correct
answer straighten me out that is
Speaker 224
1:11:54
correct it audit does a wonderful job and we have a great relationship with them a lot of the matters are referred to us there may be something that audit flags that under Arkansas law we cannot prosecute criminally for a variety of reasons and that's what we have to filter through once it's
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:12:11
given to us. OK so hearing that response it's not that audit's doing a bad job it's not that you're doing a bad job it's that there's something in the law
does not allow you to prosecute is that correct? That's absolutely correct sir. OK. so would it be worth the effort obviouslybviously they've done something that and and I guess what we're trying to understand is they they found something that doesn't necessarily break the law but it has risen to the level that it has resulted in an audit finding so the question is those things that you can't bring convictions on do we need to create the laws that would allow you to bring convictions or
Speaker 208
1:12:55
what senator the fir the first thing I would think that might be problematic with that is you you won't be able to create a law that that creates criminal intent so without criminal
Speaker 219
1:13:04
intent we would never be able to file charges on something so I don't think we could fix that in the law there may be things that don't rise to the level of a crime that you could fix or make make a crime but in terms of criminal intent that's always going to be something that a prosecutor or an attorney general serving as a prosecutor would would have to prove to go forward so I don't know if we if
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:13:25
we could legislate the creation of intent right so what you're then what you're saying is the reason you're not charging fouls or you're not filing charges is because you don't see
Speaker 224
1:13:36
criminal intent in some cases absolutely and and there's a again a lot of examples we could probably give you that sound a little odd but when we get these cases we have to go through them again. I wanna give all that credit we have their auditors are great to work with but you start looking at who's
the person that committed the crime and sometimes we can't determine who that person is or sometimes it's a it's now a misdemeanor and we're we can't file a misdemeanor charge after a year has passed so we're stuck in those those situations we can't charge someone and sometimes we don't know who the person who committed the act is and so those are some things that keep us from being able to file charges but to answer your question yes there may be some things y'all could do to help us tighten that up but again t intent is a thing
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:14:27
that we can't change OK so last question and I'll yield is it in this report where you show the cases that you couldn't prosecute because it lacked criminal intent. Is it anywhere in this report? is it summarized in each one of the individual responses or what would it take to be because I think that could paint a clearer picture as far as these numbers we can't do anything because we couldn't prove criminal intent
Speaker 224
1:15:00
I can't say that it's summarized in their I know it's one of the things we look at and I think those answers that we respond to y'all with might identify that better for you to
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:15:10
understand what is taking place absolutely right but how hard would it be to add a summary sheet in here that says these were the ones that we could not find criminal intent and then we could identify those and see what as legislators we might want to do to help create something or is am I asking too much you don't have enough staff or be honest with
me is it not going to be worth the effort
Speaker 208
1:15:32
to put it in to do that we know senator, I think we probably have that it's just that it's called different things some say no specific tentts some say could didn't rise to the level of criminal activity. I think there are various various language that you use to say the same thing but I think we could go back through and probably tally those up but that's that's at each individual
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
1:15:50
one that we have to look at and see that correct sir all right thank you good questions umpresentative ladyman
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
1:16:01
thank you madam this may be adding on to what Representative deke and Senator Hambr just said but if you look at page 18 uhpresentative Duke said that they need to better description and this is my countyreghead County and I'm familiar with this arkansas planning issue but the comment that the prosecutor has there I think is very good and it also kind of
addresses what senatorhammer was saying it says the PA requested an Arkansas state police investigation it is the PA's understanding that the monies have been paid back in the district has put measures in place to prevent this from happening in the future and then it says at this time the PA declines to prosecute for any criminal offense so that's a very good description I think if you look at the other back on page 17
our prosecutor under the AU system incident is not good it says under review there's no description of why it's under review that's an old item but you know how how often the first example I made how often is that used and that's kind of what senator Hamerhammer asks but are you
asking how often is the under review used or how the other one the other one the other one
Speaker 224
1:17:30
is what we we would like to try to do we can give that amount of information you know we've turned it over to the
Arkansas state police or local law enforcement to let them them investigate it further to bring help us to bring charges and so that's that is well done the reason and I don't want to overanswer your question which I'm quite capable of doing unfortunately is that the under review means they're still looking at it and that which is what we want to do with an investigation and not talk about it until we are completed with this they can't put that that that's what would suggest from looking at this
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
1:18:05
yes sir so in your estimation or can you
estimate how often is that first example there for East Arkansas planning is that used50% of the time I mean what's a guideline there and I know
Speaker 224
1:18:20
I don't want to put you on the spot but can't I can't give you a guess but a lot of times what we see once audit has done what they do we'll find the money has been determined that's been paid back and the parties involved may looked at it and said this is not one that needs to be criminally prosecuted and yet everyone's been made whole which is what we're trying to get to the majority of the time is get
the money back to the taxpayers who paid the money out so can I say that would be the best outcome it would be the best outcome there are people who need to be prosecuted and people who need to be incarcerated but at the end of the day if this is what
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
1:18:56
we're trying to get to yes sir OK thank you Representative Dick thank you
madam chair and thank you Representativeightden for pointing out one that was really well done and information and why sometimes there are are misses in them or not all the information's provided and I do understand that one of the ones and I'm trying to go back
through these one of the ones that I kind of ident just have a question back on page 10 in owewe County the department of agriculture and it has on here about the what what the what happened why they were referred I guess. and then district employee resigned and then there's gonna be no further action taken again my question is is restitution made at all? Did they are they paying anything back? Is anyone following up to make sure that some of these things are paid back or do these people just resign? they don't
get prosecuted and and they may be paying money back. I have no idea but I I would love to have some kind of insight if any efforts being made to that or do they just go on to the next entity and work for them and typically people have no idea and again I realize you're not probably gonna have the answers to that but I don't know if that is something we can find answers to because sometimes at least in I I do on the education audit side but I know in school districts it's just sometimes people just move from one to the next to the next to the next and
you don't necessarily know there was a problem with one because they just leave and so that was one of the questions I had and then on similar on page 27 oh that was the one I just did sorry I'm just going in order then there was and we're not gonna try to hit them all on page 30 and this was just is in it that they are still employed in this school district or not the school district in this goose camp water ussers association I guess my question in that area and this is not really for the
prosecuting attorney but just for I guess that entity is their oversight on that little bit additional oversight on that area and those are just kind of things I would just like to see so that when we're coming down here and having these meetings and we're asking our questions and now we get the follow up on them that we know that some of our concerns are being addressed no ther one I had was on page 35 no criminal charges were filed I'm sorry skip that one I read that one through it's page37.
and this was adhS one and then this one I think we could have probably a good chance of finding out that information fairly quickly there at the very bottom the funds have not been recovered and it has the answer from the prosecuting attorney and again just the questions I just have sometimes is how much do we pursue trying to get I I agree that not everything needs to end up with people going to jail but I do think restitution has to be made an effort in that part and there's some of these that I just am'm curious if that's happening page43 at the Nevada school district
and decide no criminal prostitution would be forthcoming and but for that unused sick leave again and I would think that would be something we could find out fairly easily but is that being paid back and then44 right on the next page we're we're close that issue there with the gun. OK did he what do we do with that we get we sent a letter told don't do it that way but with the with the the gun that happened there and with how that process was supposed to be
taking place did that change or did he keep the gun? did he give it back to the city? I mean what happened with that other than just the letter being sent and so those are some of the things at least I'm not like I said I'm not gonna go through all of these I'm happy to get offline cause I have a few more not a lot but that's generally the questions that I have is some of these just just doesn't seem to be clarity in what happened and it may be because they choose not to prosecute or the whatever but then we don't circle back or maybe we do what happens within the school district what happens with these entities is anyone
pursuing getting money or these people taking money inappropriately or items inappropriately get a letter, get caution. they resign and then they become potentially somebody else's problem has no idea and is that money ever being recouped because eventually you know all these are other these are the taxpayers' dollars and I get that this is kind of tedious and and not the most exciting thing in the world but we should be guarding their dollars in my opinion more than I even guard my own because we've been
given the the right and the responsibility to manage this money and all these different entities and so it may just look like $2000 here compared to millions of dollars overhere else but you know faithful and small things you're faithful in big things and if you're not going to be in faithful in small things you're not going to be faithful in the big things either so the small details do matter. So again I understand you're not going to have answers to all of these here today but that's just kind of even my feedback in in maybe the staff can share with all of these different entities I think taxpayers would like to
just kind of have the bo w tied up very neatly and nicely when issues like this occur. So thank you very much. thank you for the latitude. I appreciate it and I also I do want to say there were lots of really great descriptions in this and lots of details and lots of them so the fact that I say that there's some areas but that also makes the ones that are a little sparse they're a little bit more noticeable because there are other ones that are give you I feel like I feel like it's tied up very nicely and we know the information and I also understand some are still under investigation and things like
that are happening as well but there were some where they're like we're done and it was very minimal in what we had as far as the closing of that that case so
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:24:33
thank you very much I appreciate the leniency again you're welcome and when next we
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:24:40
havepresentative Beck and then Representativeladydyman. Representative beck thank you madam Chair just kind of building a little bit on some of the conversation I I think was gonna started with Senatorhammer but like this
number that's the charge is not filed it's two 2.7 million right that is a number below therepresentative Lady Ammbeck,
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:25:00
would you give us the page that
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:25:03
you're on? Oh I'm sorry that'm I'm on the exhibit three it's page 7 thank you so the the is that number my question is about that number is that the total number of charges
that and this might be for staff is that's the total number of dollars associated with the with the charges that were not filed it's probably
Speaker 243
1:25:32
a question for staff but I believe that's correct
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:25:37
is correct so and that that's kind of what I thought but I think a lot of people you know we we tend down here to kind of look at the bottom line to make sure that the taxpayers are are being taken care of and and what would
help there is if in those cases restitution was made you know in all of those right so the all the charges that were were filed and and everything was the taxpayers came out even I think that would make people feel a lot better about my question is is could this report be just a little bit more granular at the top level and say hey these these are the things that didn't get prosecuted or didn't get filed no charges were filed
excuse me but but but the taxpayer was made whole on all these or or are our large
Speaker 224
1:26:31
percentage of them I'm gonna try to answer that question by saying that I know that our policy in my office is that's what we're always seeking is the restitution to make the taxpayer whole and I know that's how the other 27 elected prosecutors feel the same way and if we can't have any input in that we won't restitution to be paid theres sometimes we don't have any control over that because again the action's not criminal and so we we don't have
the tools in our toolbox to force them to pay it back but I will I can say for the 28 we all want the restitution and we will do everything in our ability to make that happen and if we need to give some more information about that and what we've done or not done I think
Speaker 150
1:27:13
we're all glad to do that by all means
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:27:17
now and and follow up so the the the I I think my my question I I I I I'm sure that you guys are doing exactly what you're saying but
my thing is if we had on the report where it looks like hey and not don't even know what the number would be50% or whatever it would be then that would be another number that we could top lineta a take a look and say hey things look like they're flowing along right here and you know we still could go to the individual reports when we wanted to but I think that would make I know it make me feel a lot better and make sure that that that's happened and
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:27:54
then one other questionpresentative Beck let me let me answer that represent excuse me Mr. White
Speaker 212
1:28:01
has a some information what I wanted to mention representivebeckc is you know currently I don't think we're asking for restitution in the noncriminal charges filed section when the prosecuting attorneys are filing, you know we provide some presentations to the prosecuting attorneys as well as some of these staff they you know they're representing all prosecutingriesiesries we can communicate the message that when charges aren't filed to include the restitution amount and we can try to summarize that for
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
1:28:25
this committee moving forward that would be great and then one more quick question you mentioned that sometimes with misdemeanor
charges you it have to be done within a year and and and I can I could easily see how the system down here with these wheels move a little bit slow sometime we could see a lot of people we could be filing stuff send stuff to you to be filed after it there's no way it's gonna and I think that's a that's a waste of a lot of people's time to to do that but also if we knew that we might adjust our systems to get you those
quicker so that maybe you you would have time to act on them by the time we got because I know and coming from education I I know that education is one that we we really have a hard time sometimes getting those those people are gone they're in the next school district we pay out one contract and they're in the next school district before we can get anything done about it so anything like that I I would as a group I would suggest that you feed to us so that we could possibly maybe make our timelines a little bit quicker and get to those a little bit
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:29:35
quicker to get you what you need thank you. thank you have a volunteer if you need something done.
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
1:29:45
umpresentativeladyman and then we'll go topresentative beatty. thank you madam chair and thank y'all for
being here and I apologize for asking so many questions but but I think Representative Duke raises a really good question about these summaries and my question to you all through through the prosecutor's association do you have you you probably have
meetings or communications I I don't want to call it training because y'all are lawyers he's probably been trained enough but but just information on what this body would like to see you know maybe a check off list you know was the money given back? Why was there not prosecution or do you have an answer as to why there's some some kind of a guideline that you could give your prosecutors so that they give us the information that we think we need so we can go back to our districts and talk to our
prosecutors or or you know whatever the association is that's involved and have a better communication there so and and the municipal league which I used to be a part of the does similar thing to that do do y'all do
Speaker 227
1:30:48
that or can you do that? Yes sir we do that not only do we have training and and we do
Speaker 208
1:30:54
continue to have training maybe not maybe not enough sometimes but we do we have big conferences at least two a year where all of our prosecutors come including deputies and we also as an association with our leadership have almost monthly meetings
probably about 9 a year and your staff has attended some of those meetings before so it's absolutely doable for us to invite y'all to those meetings where we can hash this out or to present whatever you want me to present on our packets of materials to discuss one of the issues here that might be I mean not trying to create work for anybody but there's not a template that exists on every case that we have to check a box or fill out so that that may be something if you want that information in that form. Now I realize like I said some prosecutors will respond with stacks of information otherthers
will be like this I know the staff will be able to to to address that more than I would but some type of a template where we made sure you know that we answered your questions is probably something we could get together and work on that seems like maybe a solution to a lot of what
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
1:31:52
you all are that's a very good suggestion I think we need to provide to you what we want to see. I don't know why we do that my chair but I think that's something that we probably need to work on and I know you have turnover in the prosecutors and so you know you have new people coming in as we
did with mayors and you got to train them up right because they're new and they don't know the ropes but I
think if we provide you what we want to see you all may be able to provide that better for us so thank
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:32:23
you thank youpresentative lady and it's happy to do that I believe it's a combination and they've been
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
1:32:30
taking notes. uhpresentative beatty thank you madam chair gentlemen I'm over here. I would just say first is is it's always an a privilege to be sitting and and
speaking with you guys. I know you came today and this is I'll just say this is my favorite way to deal with prosecutors is sitting in a meeting but what I would ask is it would it would I I feel like it's it comfortable me to ask with with you being here today what can we do to make your jobs easier or better or help you fulfill the duties that are that are incumbent on you is there something that we you know fiscal session's coming up.body wants the green salve. everybody wants a little money but is there something that that this
body can do while while we have your attention and you have ours that you could share with us that would that would assist you in
Speaker 227
1:33:19
fulfillment of of your duties I very much appreciate the opportunity to answer that question we might not have enough time for
Speaker 208
1:33:25
me to start to answer that question but we do appreciate that in terms of the the audit issues I think we've kind of hashed out what what you know we could do for prosecutors it mean manpower is is always an issue we present things to you usually not in a fiscal session when we need additional
deputy prosecutors but I can say with the opportunity to say so one of the things we're very much interested in from the legislature is hopefully helping us get our state victim witness coordinators to be state employees a lot of those they're very important people those for people that don't understand they they hold the hand of the victim from the beginning of the process through the end and they have state statutory mandated duties to do that and unfortunately the funding sources for those employees are very different some are funded out of federal grants and those grants have been cut so we have
lost employees in prosecutor's offices for that so that is one thing we as an association are contemplating doing in in the fiscal session we don't usually do that much stuff in a fiscal session but but we're contemplating doing that because we have actually lost employees recently so off the top of my head that's probably the first thing that that comes to mind and again I appreciate the opportunity to to say that and we will be reaching out to to everyone as we get a little bit closer to the session and working with the governor's office of course to to present that and we have made that that information available to them they know we're we're we're working on this we did
file a bill last session but we're we're planning on doing it again. So I I appreciate that that is one thing these guys may have something else but for me that's the most pressing thing financially that that that I think we should be concerned with doing.
Speaker 246
1:34:55
I'll just say briefly and I appreciate Representative beatty you asking that question again I say this every time audit is great for us
Speaker 224
1:35:00
they they we work with them and we have a I'll just say briefly and I appreciate Representative beatty you asking that question again I say this every time audit is great for us they they we work with them we have good relationship and when they need things we try to get it for them and vice versa. I don't know how many cases right now audit's working on for me that
y'all be seeing in the future that they're doing some really good work and I'm I'm grateful for that what y'all ask about a checklist we think it's a good idea we we can we'll if y'all get what you want we can make that happen and I I want to echo what Bob's saying y'all have taken very good care of us in the past and we're grateful for that and but we're very we are very concerned about victim witness because everybody everything we do is prosecutors are victims of crimes and these people do a great job of helping those victims the most vulnerable people on the planet are those
victims sometimes or those people are critical and they've got some very strong state mandated by y'all what you have said is important to do and we need
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:35:59
help with our funding desperately thank you we have one more question and one more question we're gonna land this plane Representative Brown and
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:36:09
then we'll close with Senator Petty. Thank you Mrhu. one thing which one sue him I'm sorry forgive me
one thing that was mentioned to me last year was that the victim advocates in the prosecuting attorney's offices have to be paid
for out of your prosecutor budget or is that Well yes and no those positions are funded
Speaker 208
1:36:40
in different offices different ways that that that's the very position I was referring to a minute ago the the victim advocates we call them victim
witness coordinators those are not state employees that's what we're trying to do so right now they're they're either county employees or grant employees even even if they're grant employees they're county employees but the the pay is either through the county through avoca grant or in some places a combination
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:37:07
well one of the things that was mentioned to me is
that in different counties different you have different budgets so one of them might be paid better in one county than they would in another and that there's a big turnover of those people and it was in maybe you
and I are talking about the same thing now that it would be best if those victim advocate coordinators have I got that right if they were paid for out of the state budget rather than out of the county budget is that a possibility or
Speaker 208
1:37:36
is that reasonable? No yes ma'am that's exactly what I'm talking about and and then we did we did file a bill to do that last session that would have put a lot more uniformity in the in the payroll we we took existing salaries and put that all together but I'll be happy to get with with you to do that but yes it was filed uhpresentative Galzaway and Senator Gilmore were the
sponsors of of that piece of legislation last time but that is
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
1:37:58
the very people we're talking about well would like to talk with
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
1:38:06
you about that at another time ma'am absolutely thank you thank you Representative Brown Senator Petty. thank you madam chairir. The plane is on approach and I'm gonna let you land it here in just a second but this has been good conversation but one thing that is probably the only auditor in here and that was uh30 years ago that might be helpful to this body is to
maybe have a brief 30 minute ish presentation by staff and and and maybe the prosecutor's office as well on the nature of what we're talking about because there are certain things that and and again I'm not going to speak for staff but I I in in Jim Petty words there are certain things that we turn over to them that may or may not be what would be a prosecutorial item but we don't want to make that
decision as as auditors we're gonna turn that over and so there's there's there's scope and materiality there's law there's there's believe it or not we have gray areas in the law and so I think maybe some training, brief training about what happens so this reports for the period this January to December 2024 some of these reports that were reported on go into 2022,2023 and so the reports may be are due as we know from our our
water reports they may be 18 months later some may be shorter than that but I think a a general understanding of the process of turning it over to the prosecutors and then how the prosecutors respond to those and and the timing might help us in creating laws topresentative Beatty or whoever made that comment. but I I think that that my observation is there's a a a little bit at least if not a significant amount of of
really not understanding the process from the auditor perspective and from the prosecutor perspective and so maybe just a brief training on that area by staff one day might be helpful so with that I'm gonna turn over the autopilot to you and let you land
Speaker 259
1:40:15
this plane. thank you so much. First of all,
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
1:40:20
I also want to just reiterate always ask questions they're the anti venom to bad government so never apologize for that and I love the fact that
so many of you stayed and stuck on it so with that I would move that we file this report do we have a second ndpresentative Brown's discussion of the motion all in favor opposed all right motion passes gentlemen thank you so much for being here today and answering our questions with that we have no other business coming before us we will see everybody on February 12th and 13th. plane landed
Agenda
A. Call to Order by Chair
B. Adoption of Minutes
C. Reports of Executive and Standing Committees:
D. Review of Reports:
E. Other Business:
The next meetings of the Legislative Joint Auditing Committee will be held February 12 and 13, 2026.
F. New Business
G. Adjournment
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — LEGISLATIVE JOINT AUDITING, Jan 9, 2026 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Representative Robin Lundstrum
Unverified
Senator Jim Petty
Unverified
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
Representative Hope Duke
Unverified
Representative Steve Unger
Unverified
Speaker 47
Speaker 48
Speaker 62
Representative Howard M. Beaty, Jr.
Unverified
Speaker 68
Speaker 72
Speaker 77
Speaker 81
Speaker 82
Speaker 84
Speaker 85
Speaker 94
Scott Richardson
Unverified
Speaker 110
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
Representative Matt Brown
Unverified
Speaker 117
Speaker 128
Speaker 133
Speaker 134
Speaker 147
Representative Rick Beck
Unverified
Speaker 158
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
Senator Matt Stone
Unverified
Speaker 176
Speaker 175
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
Speaker 194
Speaker 24
Senator Jane English
Unverified
Speaker 80
Senator Kim Hammer
Unverified
Speaker 202
Speaker 204
Speaker 208
Speaker 207
Speaker 212
Speaker 32
Speaker 210
Speaker 219
Speaker 224
Speaker 243
Speaker 150
Speaker 227
Speaker 246
Speaker 259