State Agencies & Govt'l Affairs- House & Senate

Committee members if you would go ahead and. Thank you say to a guy ready to start the committee meeting. My cochairs unable to be here today he notified me yesterday he's been. Summons for jury duty so he's not gonna be able to be in attendance today so we'll miss him not being here committee members the reason for this meeting today is in compliance with the act up for twenty one of twenty twenty one. Which requires is This committee to meet and discuss the The election technology that's out the that should be any new new election technology and so that's what we're here today to do in compliance with the act for twenty one this committee has to submit a report to the Legislative Council by no later than November the thirtieth so I think the best way to get this meeting started today is to. Call our sponsor of the bill that was that drafted this bill that later became ACT four twenty one and that's representative Stephen Meeks representative makes if you would just a go ahead explain the bill and what we're looking for today. The. For yes or representative made dial up now that overlooked the we need to consideration to prove the minutes from August nineteen twenty twenty one September twentieth twenty twenty one September twenty third twenty twenty one and September twenty seventh of twenty twenty one of the I have a motion to I have a motion all in favor say aye. Approved representative to make sure recognized. Thank you Mr chairman so colleagues as you may recall back in the general session I sponsored legislation that would require a study of how we can use technology to make our elections more secure as everybody understands in this room elections are cornerstone of our Republic and anything we can do to make them more secure and to give our citizens confidence in the elections I think it's something worth pursuing and in order to make sure that the study got down on instead of going and I ask P. which as you know ISP sometimes come to committees to acetylated II I felt that this was a much more important the topic and so are you all kindly pass legislation which brings us to where we are today there are two primary things in the legislation to primary look technology pieces that I wanted to explore and look at the first one was how we might could use biometrics to secure elections the idea being that out as a form of identification you do some form of biometrics and that would prevent anybody from voting in your name or your stat trying to do away with that type of fraud and then the second was how we might could use technology to better audit contract ballots especially absentee ballots. And so following the passage of this I held numerous meetings with the secretary of state and his staff and I'm very appreciative of the time they gave me and the discussions we had we probably met three or four times to talk about this issue talked about everything from the security that's involved in doing it public perception the technology involved would be public embrace it would add convenience and Following those meetings I had a chance to talk to experts in the field of biometrics and what we came away with is while the field of biometrics is mature enough to be able to handle all small groups of people for example company size or school size it's actually being used a lot of our schools for lunches and so forth that the technology is actually not and I was surprised to learn as the technology for biometrics is not yet mature enough to be able to handle all potentially a three million user database and so because of that biometrics is not to the place that were it could be successfully deployed everyone of the meetings was of the mind that at some point the technology will get there and that is something that needs to be watched and study further in the future but unfortunately as of right now the technology is not quite mature enough to be able to handle such a large database there was also concern about public acceptance what a job the public be open to the government having you know their fingerprints or other type data especially in this situation so at this point based upon our discussions and talks with the experts biometrics all we think that that's probably something that will come at some point the future we've just not got to that place yet the second part of the study was to look at how we might be able to track absentee ballots and the concept here was is that when someone request an absentee ballot when that ballot is presented the ballot would have a Q. R. code or some sort of machine readable Unique identifier placed on that ballot and that unique identifier would be unique to that individual unique to that election so for example if I were to request an absentee ballot I would get one of these unique identifiers that would say that that ballot was only good for me and only good for that election so that way that ballot could not be duplicated or used by anyone else Talking with the computer experts and of course with the secretary of state's office they felt that was something that we could probably Institute fairly easily computer folks said or they could probably have something covid ready to go in less than a day to be able to handle that but the spokes of the secretary of state's office felt that at this time it would be duplicative of efforts that they already have in place so while that is available to us to implement they didn't feel at this time it was something that would bring a whole lot of benefit. to other areas that did come out of this that potentially bear some some fruit that we can look into as everyone was using technology to develop the ballot styles as you all know that right now the way the system works is when all the candidates are. I laid out that your local county offices after going create a ballot style for all the different Ballots within the county are sometimes there's sixty seventy sometimes up to as many as two hundred different ballot styles that have to be generated to try to beat all the different precincts and as you know those are human created so that creates opportunity for mistakes and mistakes do happen and that does create confusion among the voters and creates confusion are elections I had the opportunity to talk to some of the vendors at NCIS and all I ask the question why can't with current technology with the the GIS shape files that we have for all of these districts why can't those ballots be generated on the fly by the computers so are so county clerks don't have to do it and they said yeah there's no reason why that can't happen so hopefully that something will pursue in the future that the computers once I get your address your ballot is. Automatically generated at that point so get rid of that human error and gets rid of confusion so look for that technology hopefully to come and then in the near future to be helped our county clerks and any other idea that I asked the secretary of state's to look into only recently so I've not heard back from them. Is the idea of a mobile vote Senator on this kind of goes back to the absentee ballot a lot of our absentee ballot come from shut ins from nursing homes hospitals. What if the idea here what if we had a mobile vote Senator that would go to those nursing homes. We've got two weeks of early voting so say the first Tuesday we set up a vote Senator for one day and the local nursing home so it gives the people who live in those facilities the chance to actually go and cast their votes an actual voting machine are we already have a lot of our counties that vote centers and it seems like this would be pretty easy so they're looking to see if there's a law that would be required to change to be able to allow that but I think that would be a great service that we can offer our seniors so that they know that during those early voting they're gonna have a day where the voting the polling centers actually going to come to their location or they can cast their vote in person and of course you got to lose notify the local you know Republicans and Democrats so they can have poll watchers there if they want but I think that would be a great server so we could offer our seniors and something that hopefully will pursuant to the future and so with that colleagues I appreciate you letting us undertake it this study and hopefully it'll it'll bear some fruit force on the future Our sailors we got one or two questions here. Thank you representative makes we do have a couple of questions representative back you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr my question is related to the the barometric was you said it wasn't ready at this time I think you were hinting at the database aspect of it is just I don't you don't you can wait on what is the actual limitation right now versus it's Wes so many people there weren't a hundred percent confident that it could differentiate between people so for example for use on prince if you have you know. One half million thumbprints in the system. That the possibility of them getting mixed up would exist because you would have to that were so similar to each other that you could potentially have confusion created their. It just a quick second question about my you're recognized of the this is my second question was had to do with the duplicate ballots offers in which I understand the secretary of state's office said that we don't need at this time but you know that my point I would make to that is we find out that we need it. It's because after the election what we should have it before the election so I mean I think if it's valid that we should we should pursue those type things just to stay ahead of the game a little bit as far as okay now one thing related to that that I didn't mention and that kind of brings to my mind is during the last election with absentee ballots one of the common questions I got from people who sent those in how do I know my ballot was received and when it was received and if it was counted and right now there's not any system that does that and wouldn't it be nice if there was this Q. R. code or whatever on the ballot that when it comes into the office to scan goes up on a website or somewhere that's easily accessible where. Either you know where the the voter can going check and see yes that my ballot was indeed received and and properly accounted. Learn that that would be something about the a side benefit I think to try to do something like this. Senator garner you're recognized for a question thank you Mr I know one of big issues we had last election is ballot harvesting where you have committees political operatives go different places pick up ballots not think there is a. Very fraught history with us doing that and respectfully when you mention that you have a mobile voting center that would move voting place for one thing the other that's kinda jumped in my mind and all the games to be played with that kind of resource being moved mobility to different sites where would they go out they get there how do you address those concerns and make sure that let's just say in a certain County they weren't sent to certain voting blocks that would be more likely to vote one way or the other how would you have that fairly distribute I guess what is a sure and and and those are questions that we would have to answer as we debated how to set that up but I would be of the mind that if we did it would have to be to you know like nursing homes or places where their shot and so it's not going to be just open and willing million everybody and that those locations would be publicized ahead of time so that the you know I said you would notify the the Republicans and Democrats and any other parties so that they can send observers to those locations. I guess is not just observers or anything like that I mean with the advancement of technology which is what we're discussing I can probably pinpoint a certain nursing home that has a certain political persuasion ten times more than another one sure and let's see if I want to get more votes one forty other I could sing this mobile station one versus the other even if you gave equal access to everybody being there from services I mean I can. The Senate can make a place a very fun political games with that very question or well I mean and and you have those played with the absentee ballots so the unfortunately. If people want to try to crop them play the system people are going to find a way to do it no matter what we do thank you thank you president. Representative Ladyman you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr. representative back S. part of my question but the unique identifier. so. If it's duplicated you haven't identifier and gets duplicated one two three ten other times of with the system or could the system identify that and I mean would there be some way of alarming or red flag or did you all talk about that sure so my my thought process there is with that unique identifiers once it's right through the system if you try because this is one of the complaints in the last election is that people would run batches abouts through time and time again is that the system could be set up so that once that batch was run through the first time if you try to run it through the second time that the system would know that that one's already been read and would ignore it so it would prevent that kind of stuff for from happening now the folks was secretary state Election border here they can probably speak to it right now as I understand it the systems that are places when the ballot is run into the reader the The ballot as captain the reader so you have a paper copy of how many vote should be there and then that plus the tally on the reader should match so if the reader says that there's you know a hundred votes there should be a hundred paper ballots those two should match and if they don't then you know that that there's a problem so under our current system it would be hard to do not that it couldn't be done but it would be very difficult to do because there's checks and balances both at the local precinct and at the county offices and if push come to shove the state to come in and do an audit as well. Thank you so by by adding those that could be done but it would just be a. Are an extra line of defense if you you know secondary. Representative state you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair one of the things I want to ask you on that bar code how do you prevent the things that how say I have come in and I have a barcode what keeps you from going back and finding out just exactly how I uploaded and that's one of the challenges to that so that the the barcode would have to be done in such a way that eight the the two could not ever be matched you know as as they were done right now the absentee ballot the you've got the outer envelope that's got the. Persons you know information on it and then the balance on the inside that that doesn't so you have to do is you have to set it up so that the machine could read it but that humans couldn't read or couldn't be traced back to the voter is yes that and that's the challenge to doing this there's there's ways to do it and as I talk to the expert they said experts say said that yes there's ways to do it to make sure that the to remain separate but that's the challenge is to make sure that the vote Stacey correct but the ballot is only Ron wants that makes sense. I ask another question you're recognized. I think what you're doing when we do this is your opening the door to people thinking just wanna ask and there's no way you can prove that you can prove this to voters out here and I think it's it's going to create a real concern among the voters truthfully I don't care how if people know how I vote but a lot of people do and assurance very and should be kept that away I agree totally the other questions. That I'd like to ask I think and we just on that point I would not be in favor of doing this if there was not a way to make sure that the that the vote remain secret I think that's fundamental to what we're trying to do here and I know that you're trying to be very careful but I think it's going to be hard to convince the voters that right and that's part of the the challengers the the other questions that I had is the nursing home I believe we have just in the last few years god nursing home schooling that because they that is a place that there has been. I don't know how you to explain it but some concern it's just well things have happened and people went out there and took lots of ballots and and done and now I believe there's a law that thing only pick up so many ballots that they can't do. I think that you're going to be very very cautious in the star singles because folks that have people in there they go and get the ballot and help them otherwise you've got people in there that needs lots and lots of help and if you get people helping them they're going to help on the way they vote at or they want to vote and I think. Nursing homes need to be to completely out of it and let family members take care of that because I think we're opening the door to more fraud more problems more things happening because these these people doing a lot so hell. So are you know like on that my grandmother we are one of my early elections before she passed away She made a party that she want to go vote because you want to vote for her for her grandson and so we had to get special permission and get wheelchairs and it was a big day on it was a. I'm near the end of her life so you can imagine it was I'll say traumatic but it was pretty stressful to get her out of the facility taker down to the polling place maker wait in line and then go to be able to cast her ballot in that's where the idea came to me would it be nice that instead of having her to be able to go through all that that. We could either as a family or the staff is just taker to the dining room or wherever and allow to cast your vote there and. Be kind of an extension to that one of the things I thought of it and so it would be a nice way for families to be able to go and help the elderly folks cast a ballot in the facility and so I think that it might actually come back some of that stuff because you're not gonna have one person come in you know where that is about harvesting now they'll go to five or six different rooms trying to collect you're not gonna have somebody come in on election day. And help separate elderly to go cast a vote all of that happened some was going on why are you helping all these other people that are not related to you. And so it creates opportunity for questions to be asked if that were to come up. The other aspect to this that I think could become an extension of this as. Allowing. Are you there is this or similar system to this for our military for either or here in the United States or overseas so that our of veterans and military personnel on election day instead of them having to do an absentee ballot wouldn't it be nice if there was a location where soldiers from Arkansas who were stationed in Germany had a place where on election day they can actually go cast their ballot in person and that was transmitted back here. I think that would that would that would maybe take a little bit more work. But I think that that would be our. I'm not a service that we can offer to our military personnel ILECs that I don't know if that's something we could do or not but that was kind of an extension to this that I was thinking we could. Look at. Say no further questions directed to make thank you for your explanation of this this bill would appreciate it all right thank you Committee thank you. Go ahead and call the table miss Leslie Bellamy. Mr Michael area Mr Daniel shields. If you would just of would just start. my right and just identify yourself and who you're with. I'm Leslie Bellamy on the director of elections for the Arkansas secretary of state's office. Hi Michael Harry and the managing attorney for the secretary of state. Daniel Schultz I'm director for the state board of election commissioners. Okay thank you who wants to go first to the just a brief discussion about the what we're here to discuss today election technology. I'm I guess I'll start so recognized we have one of the ones it's met with representative makes several times on the biometrics one of the problems currently and I think he kind of hit that is that the current system that we have doesn't have the capability of storing that many Either the flight from France for the retinal scans and it also just doesn't have the capability at all so we have to contract with another vendor I contacted our vendor to ask for some kind of fiscal impact they were unable to answer that until we knew what vendor or what message that we might be interested in an arc I can understand that they don't know how to answer the questions without the knowledge of what we're looking for I did speak with some Clark's long term clerks that have been around a long time and they had some concerns about disenfranchisement of voters that they would want to give that information to the government to Hale's and how would it be placed in the system or other areas where it can be mixed up with someone else's them print and then you wouldn't get to vote so that was that was some of the main concerns and I think in some of the main concerns that I've talked about with anybody that's been in elections for a long time with a unique identifier is I think what a representative speaks was alluding to is whether it's traceable or not it appear it's the appearance that is traceable to your vote and that's one of the things that they didn't like about that so I don't thank on the absentee ended Daniel probably can back me up more on that you know the signature has to match what kind of what it appears to be some very similar to the V. R. program which is our voter registration power profile system so we're kind of tracking that stuff is will we have looked at some avenues with the post office Would have to get with the counties and get there you know input on but you can track those ballots back and forth if the counties chose to choose to use that technology that the post office has now one of the things that I think would concern the them and in the studies that we did is that they would actually have to turn their balance sheet their ballots over to this vendor to print them packs them and send the so I would probably have a little bit concerned there if you could just deliver them already. Backed up by the clerks personnel are I would be more comfortable with that. Okay thank you. Yesterday you were collection I I don't know that I have a whole lot add to that I think there's some legal considerations with the biometrics as far as privacy concerns things like that I think misspelling touched on that also there's some Americans with disability compliance issues some of us don't have hands as far as fingerprints things like that so you would have access to elections did you get a little closer to the Mike please my bad I usually projects quite well so I didn't think that would be an issue but so I think there are just some considerations involved with the legalities of things as far as privacy concerns giving up your your thumb print to the government I mean it as it stands right now when you do register to vote you have to provide certain pieces of proof of your existence I suppose but most of those or all of those actually are supported and given to you by the government so you're not actually giving anything up that they don't already have and I guess I'll just reiterate if I if you can hear me before but Americans with disabilities act on the resume some issues with access to elections for individuals that don't have either Hanser or thumbs or fingers or things like that would need to be taken into consideration but As that goes I I think you all know that they would need to be changes to the current legislative legislation that prevents certain he's election equipment being attached to the internet things being transferred back and forth but other than that I don't know that I have a whole lot more to add. Thank you Director shows you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman I think a lot of this has been covered so I don't won't necessarily add to my the some of the ground has been covered and I have this state board especially has been crusader against this is how we always done have done it is not an adequate answer particularly when that doesn't conform to the law so I'm I don't want to say that we're close minded to improvements but do one at least reiterate that these are concerns that the current process does address most importantly through voter ID yup this the General Assembly has been consistent and working to ensure our Kansans vote with an ID State Commission the Secretary have defended those laws without the Terry general successfully thus far so the the biometrics is is I could see the value of that but the ID serves the same policy goal ballot tracking error ballot to. The the idea related to unique identifiers on ballots I think the concerns have been adequately express their I just to point out that voter secrecy is a just a policy goal it's a constitutional right under the Arkansas constitution amendment fifty section to. and that again if the I'm into I'm intrigued by that potential but I do think any unique identifiers gonna. Going to implicate the concerns that have been mentioned postelection auditing is one way to address that without those concerns following the the concerns about election integrity in twenty sixteen which you may recall the state board **** the General Assembly to pass for the first time a post election auditing program in Arkansas which you did I think we're committed to expanding that was still discussing exactly what the expansions going to look like but written a more robust post election audit and there are interesting ways to use technology in that a risk letting audits that could be implemented that the do some interesting things ours is a more traditional audit not a risk limiting audit but that's a potential so those are ways to achieve to pursue the same policy goals with the. Other means. And in one coming on mobile polling site I think there is a need to to think about this and and that's that's also an intriguing concept that but I think there is there are some counties who have moved like the early voting site from location to location which is sort of a of a maybe a less sophisticated form of what's been discussed here today and I do think there's there is a I need to say whether that's permissible and if it is permissible to set in some. Procedure requirements so I know that may not be quite as far as what was discussed earlier but that is one thing that I do think he does want the attention the General Assembly. So with that I would be happy to Your available for questions. Got a couple questions representative back you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair and I it's sort of a question statement I guess sort. With certain individuals that yeah there might be certain individuals are early adopters that would say Hey I love the idea of I ask you to vote I loved I deal happens to a code and all that stuff done that you know my question would be is is it possible that we could do something like that and and and with the other thing. In terms of efficiencies like if there are certain types of votes other types of positions the third type of ballots or things like that are very hard to harvest hard to hard to control those type of business that possibly we might use some of these technologies to help us out with the house to to make sure that the voting process is run very efficiently and while still staying secure so that would so the question statement. Representative Vic I'd like to answer back to that because I think that having been in Arkansas elections for over twenty five years and having it started out with you can get ten ballots for an individual now you guys have it down we're going to get to so the legislators Senate absolutely great job of handling a lot of the ballot harvesting the having to sign to assist voters nail that that being added to the legislation has helped so those continued efforts that you guys have made have actually of cancer passed what some technology would do you know you you also we have to check for signatures mail to make sure they match they have to have ID returned with the ballot so I think that the legislators have done an excellent job of correcting a lot of that ballot harvesting and as far as the nursing home of polling locations or would necessarily be opposed to that but I think you have to be really careful The legislation that's passed with that because currently no legislation would allow for that and you have to be you know is that the nursing home staff that's allowed to help and what limitations with there be on that would it have to be the individuals families and what always encourage individual families that are worried about is that absentee is not just right before the election we're going to hear your call the deadline this Friday and pass that people can get absentee ballots they'll have limit the counties and the the fifteen days before the election bears can actually take ballots to the person so being proactive in your family can help that to which you have to be really careful on what limitations are set for those administrators of those in nursing homes. Representative make sure recognized. Thank you and thank you all for you know participating in this discussion I think it's a obviously important discussion to have and how we can improve our or our elections I've got two questions the first one is one thing that I didn't get a chance to really discuss the the GIS and the balance being auto generated on site based on a person's address so that the local council folks don't have to create you know seventy a hundred two hundred different ballot styles is that something that's doable on your mind what would it take to implement something like that is my first question and then my second question is can you all look into your crystal balls and what do you see coming on the horizon as far as elections an election technology in our for our for discussions about you know maybe someday in the future people just be voting through their cell phones obviously that's not gonna happen anytime soon but what the Aussie coming on her eyes I guess would be my second question I don't want to jump in and these guys would have been the ball game a long time is one of the things I see that some other states are doing West Virginia is one of them and for the military voters like you discuss they were sending out pin numbers with a you know it's I can't remember the name of the app but they were actually allowing the soldiers to vote on their but that unique pin number was sent to them so I'm not sure if that's something that would be in the Willigis laters first of referring to your and I think on the the thing of when you discussed you know you'll using GIS elections we do that a lot already we do shape files for our election night reporting when the this counting's upload their asking files says their shape files or feel the end is what's reporting and hello yes it is actually has a portion of the power profile program that and implements a little more GIS we've not bought that modul of Pulaski County tried it. A little bit of problems with it so I see that becoming more and more prevalent I actually did interim a study for a national GIS group shall B. Johnson asking to participate in we did geo coding elections that was the name of the the program land and we used a I think it was four Arkansas counties and that was successful so I see that be and probably one of the major things with elections going forward is eager voting electronically on your phones or your iPad with a paean and then the GIS implementation of the precincts so that the precinct splits can be more accurate and wrote down to the ballot styles. Representative speak sure recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair I think anything that has to do with the bar code we've got a group of people as and I know they have to or manage all about our elections and and they have brought it back to Arkansas what's happened in other states and and course they don't relate here but but I think it we get into very much that four people can't say through can't do then we're gonna really have some real hard feelings in that not trusting is don't you thank. I would agree with that I do think so that point one thing that we can say and that we very very often do say is that the certified the legal results of the election are at no point in the process exposed to the internet the unofficial results are communicated via the internet but the certified results of the the doll the legal process the often in places not permit the certified results ever be exposed to internet connection so that I think anything we do should preserve that. Fundamental safeguard to the process. Yeah I would agree and I think we dealing with here to different things there's the axe the the actuality the reality of the integrity of the elections there's the perception and I think that's kind of what you're getting into and one thing that aligning folks to vote on their phone and things like that would open it up to perception is that's not safe look I'm old enough to know that in remember I had a black and white TV you know as a kid but now I can watch whatever I want something that's in my pocket so the technology is changing that's changing rapidly whether or not the perception catches up to that I don't know any so far it hasn't because of witness Phil said that. It's it. The perception is that the the internet is his or our elections are transferred by internet and in this is not the case that the official results but that's not what of the abortion the public believe so that's going to be the biggest thing I think the technology's going to get there but the biggest hurdle to all of this will be perception. Perception is reality so. Well and the the male actors also advancing their technology so it it's it's not only could be accepted but should be. May I ask another question you're recognized public do we not have ballot stubs anymore you know there was a law that treasures had to keep up with the ballot stubs do we have anything like that now only an absentee voting well in in so if you use a preprinted paper ballot supplies the county election that uses preprinted paper ballots in Pulaski County there be ballot stub but the the records that preserves the ballot is the ballot itself someone expressed both do you regionally to start with a blank card when you go over to vote in the back the machine produces the ballot on to the card in real time so those don't have status but if you were to have a preprinted ballot the. And and again Pulaski county on election day and absentee voting of the only ones or we see those it does have stuff. Senator speaks as well I think one of the fellows The Great fails it's going around the nation and especially here in Arkansas that we hear is that you know you're talking about the paper ballots to well a lot of people have the misconception that we don't have a paper ballot in Arkansas and literally we are the epitome of a paper ballot it runs the and you market it runs the paper ballot back out to you and then you put it in a tabulator your sale so that's one of the things we fought constantly two is people just don't understand the system so I do agree with you as you add technology they'll be less and less understanding of what we're actually doing and we have a kind of a wave in Arkansas right now want to go back to paper ballots and back to hand County because obviously when you've worked a sixteen hour day hand counting is not you're not gonna make any mistakes at all and of course I'm being sarcastic but that is the reality is that we are advanced after now there's also been in law a long term that people the misconception that Arkansas has an audited but ever since we went to the opera tronic in two thousand and five the counties have been responsible for auditing that paper ballot back to what their actual hand written you know voter list is and back to the tabulation and I did that personally for years and what county so I know that it was in law and it's being done and then the new addition of the new audits makes it even farther what I would like to see possibly at some junctures Arkansas to move to have more advanced risk limiting audit which is what a lot of states use and there are software is that can be bought to help the county's run those audits if I might I would add one more thing that I that the she hit on that I want to bring out the list of voters which is just a piece of paper where every person who walks in the polls name as long as they walk in kind of performs the same function as the ballot stubs it gives you an independent cross reference in order to see to the number of votes that I have match up to the people that came in the poll that's not even you don't have to. Rely on the this technology it's a paper records. Representative Ladyman you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair of. Will you know I think in Arkansas we do a much better job than a lot of states I really do and we had a group that worked during the session on bills of one thing I want to say anytime you open up the process then you're open to fraud so security has to be increased so if we have a mobile universitaires not be costs associated with you had a secure every site so that's something we need to keep in mind but back during the session we actually passed sixteen election integrity bills here in Arkansas separate bills and and they're very simple I think you're talking the one that we passed was like a one liner says thou shalt not connected machine to the internet that's based it was very clear that that's what we want and I and I don't think that we had a problem but again looking forward we need clear eyed bills like that this is we don't want to go down that road but my question is you know all of this technology is great and I think this is written speaks talked about we we. Stephen talked about we need to do this and we need to be proactive on it but the bills we pass in the session we're we're common sense things that didn't cost any money or very little but there were things that help the integrity a little bit so even though I like technology I don't wanna spend half budget on one election bill so can you talk a little bit I mean I know we have systems we have advances what are these things cost nowadays and I know they get cheaper as more people use them but these things that are recommended or any of them cost prohibitive you know like the bios can you kind of talked a little bit about what the cost is. Yes representative Ladyman I spoke at great length with our vendor and he said you know that the basic he had a hard time answered it like I have previously stated because we wouldn't even know what vendor or by matrix method we would use so he said it would complete it would be a complete overhaul of Arkansas's power profile system which is our voter registration database and as well it would be a complete overhaul of the whole books because you would have to collect all of that data from every voter in Arkansas whether it be their retinal scanner their fingerprint have our voter system change to House that data and then have it transformed and the poll workers will transform to accept that data from the power profile system and then some method of using that system at the polling sites so I am sorry that I can't really get a finger on that I can't get my thumbprint on that cost but I think that we can all probably gleaned from what I've said that it would be very expensive. Some say no further questions from committee members director Bellamy Director Aaron record shows thank you all so much for being here today you're testimony is amended employment even as chair of this committee I appreciate your input thank you so much. Committee members at this time just make to committee aware that it. Without any without objection this the chairs will we will submit a a draft are good draft of today's meeting and submit that report and obviously you'll be able to review that port at a later time so without any objections as you're going to submit that report as in compliance with that four twenty one PM with report has to be submitted by November the thirty year journey objections to the chair handling that. Saying none that's the way it'll be handled next on today's agenda is we're going to air discussion on I. as paid representative to Mayberry here she comes. The representative may very few would I say you've got a gas with you and I thank I'm familiar with your gas we go way back the what about forty years ago. Yes alone time rush was with LP when I was with the state pollution we worked few cases together so as good C. again my pram. Yes representative Mayberry if you would just of go ahead didn't have your guest identify himself even though I just did it but go ahead having been identified himself who usually at the end then you're recognized make your presentation for your ISP sure. Mister chair my name is Russell Jones I served as the dean of business and economic development for Arkansas tech university across. Okay thank you I'm members I am not presenting a bill to you today I'm not presenting a perfect plan of any sort my goal today is to start conversation because I do not want Arkansas to be the last state. Like we often are to talk about things that we need to be talking about a few years back we passed legislation that transformed our government. I believe that this is the next step of transformation this idea is not my idea of like to claim that it is it's actually been brought to me by state employees who have come to me and upset Hey I never thought of remote work. I've been a long time state employee I've loved my job I want to continue to work here this is a great place you know it's a truck. But because of pandemic I was sent home to do my job whether I liked it or not I was sent home to do my job. Because they were sent home they actually realized how much they liked working remotely. it was not their choice but in the long run they realized that they were more productive. They had a better life work mentality they handle stress in their life better and they save money for example instead of driving to work every day thirty forty five minutes with gas prices three four dollars a gallon they were able to stay home they didn't eat out they were able to stay home and eat food in their own refrigerator make their own lunch they save money by not having to buy as many clothes those are all expenses and the people that I've talked to said it was almost like getting a pay raise. Then on top of that they say that they did more work at home and they also were able to handle life I mean we all have a life outside of work and they were able to handle that Evan flows of of life many of them got into better shape because instead of that thirty hour commute to work they could walk around the block or get on their treadmill or whatever and work out they just were able to function better now not every positioned work worked well from home not every person works well from home I understand that and I'm not saying that we need to send every employee home but I think it's something that we need to look at because other states are looking at it main Arizona Washington Oklahoma Iowa Kentucky Utah Colorado California Missouri Kansas Georgia Ohio Michigan Tennessee you have a a packet and I'm not gonna get into every detail on this other packet but it kinda outlines what some of those other states have done and some of them started this pre pandemic this was not something that all states just for forced into because of the pandemic they solved the writing on the wall and they were proactive trying to address it I did a survey I asked BLR to put together some questions to send out we're gonna go through that survey so you can kind of see where we are in state government it's a sampling it's not everything but I do want to allow doctor Jones to kind of give his input on what we're seeing nationally because this is not just government that's dealing with this it's also the private sector we need to retain good employees and we need to recruit good employees and the private sector is allowing remote work more. Or and more and we could lose a lot of good employees if we don't do something so Dr Jones let you share some Mister chair of representative Mayberry was given my contact information to just work I did with an organization back in the nineteen nineties we actually called a rule sourcing we found that there were some large organizations that we're overlooking some talented pools of individuals in rule areas and then they're also rule pools of students who are because they want to stay in their location they forego applying to fortune five hundred companies in other jobs that they might want because they want to stay in Arkansas shall we work to deal with some fortune five hundred companies that they would hire of recent graduates and in my case I was living in jump or working for Arkansas state at the time and we set up the first of these in Arkansas state called rule sourcing are we set up an organization or a plant there to house thirty employees so the graduates from Arkansas state would go out there and they would work for a company like companies like Mattel toy of Microsoft and others the work would be downloaded to them this is pre internet explosion so this was an old timey download type thing so the information would be downloaded to them all they would work on their project and then the results would be up loaded back to the company back then we identified some benefits to both sides of the house all the companies we were able to get talent that otherwise they would have gotten they got it for cheaper price because they paid the going wage for Arkansas which was a lot cheaper than the going rate of New York Chicago and other of their and their other headquarters the students got to work for large companies got exposed to a low of projects that they would have been exposed to we could say they beefed up their resume so it was a win for both sides and this was again before the before the internet even took off and then after. and rules sourcing did take off we ended up with I believe ten organizations across the United States while I was working in New Zealand we actually flew the the other the donor who provided the moneys to create this institution and we presented it to the association of provincial managers which or governors ought to look at rule sourcing over there because they were losing all their graduates to Australia and Asia because we weren't provided or they weren't providing jobs in rule New Zealand so this this truck off it is now a for profit company that is still in existence they're still looking for rule a talent across America and so it is working as change a lot because of the internet this was the birth of remote work we called it rule sourcing but what it was was remote work we have students living it out or graduates living in remote areas of Arkansas and other places across the country working for companies that otherwise they wouldn't work for because they like their location I just like to give you a few numbers to show you how much the explosion is happening most of this is all industry Opry pandemic we had an estimate a hundred sixty five million in the work force only five million work more than fifty percent or more remotely that's basically three percent. R. forty four percent of all companies didn't allow remote work pre pandemic and then we all know what happens with the pandemic we sent everybody home I work in higher ed we had the same thing we closed our doors we told our faculty member that forty eight hours to get everything online and they all started working from home during the pandemic seventy percent of the people worked remotely. Post pandemic as representative Mayberry said people who saw Hey I can work from home I can do things from home they realize that they liked it also the numbers went up companies also saw some savings involved what I'll talk about in just a moment post pandemic thirty to forty eight percent of the work force or at least part time remote. A. The benefits to employers are some of the things same thing you would thank to the employer they're gonna save money on reduced office space are they improve their retention rates they have an increased applicant pool they can hire from anywhere it is traffic and environment friendly if you've ever driven in a big city I've lived in Vegas and some other large cities if you can imagine taking all the commuters Health what out of the way it makes things a lot nicer L. I. it's green for the environment lots of savings there it grows the economy in rule areas will talk about a couple of examples real quick in in just a moment but obviously if you do this is going to increase the number of workers in rule areas and decrease in urban areas and so if you're trying to grow rule areas that's of an advantage offer industry industry is estimated their savings is about eleven thousand per employees for fully remote worker so they're saving for the employer. The employee decrease community correct computation expense less stress greater job search scope they can apply for a job they otherwise wouldn't applied for our reduce food costs being able to eat at home child care that's a question because one of the things I approach at the very end is some states have said this is not a childcare substitute some people allow it and there's some pros and cons of both sides of that house but the estimated savings to the individuals about six thousand dollars a year. Also some numbers this the these are numbers from a combined between Gardner fords and Columbia business school of those that work remote thirty two percent notice to productivity increased one twenty three percent saw productivity decrease of this emphasizes the fact is not for every worker it's not for every job of the largest difference was based on job description the one that had the highest return was people who work in HR paperwork type jobs they had ninety four percent productivity increase. About seventy two percent of businesses now offer some type of hybrid environment. Twenty three percent of employers now working remotely said they would have done it even if they may not eat it they would have done it even if they'd been offered ten percent less pay they would have taken a ten percent pay cut to be able to work at home. All the commute time in this number I I couldn't believe it but I checked it twice the commute time saved in the United States and twenty twenty by remote workers was nine billion hours of commute time and you can imagine what that does for the green green is in the environment to reduce that. Of fifty five percent wanted more remote hours my thirty six percent desire to be back in the office of this was during the pandemic so again not for everybody and it's not just your job description there are certain job personality types that work better again I work in higher ed I saw students who went to remote some students did very well some students did very poorly that's why in higher ed we need to options we need option for people who need remote and those that need face to face Our and thirty two percent of those that work remote state if they were forced to go back to the job force and work full time at the work thirty two percent would quit their jobs. Our employees when they were they said they a ninety percent self said they felt more productive seventy four said they had better mental health eighty four percent they were said they were happier the turnover rate was reduced with the increase the flexibility of remote work. Again they found the remote work increases the economic growth in small rural towns it's best bet for computing IT engineering legal and financial individuals it was the second highest motivation behind pay increases to attract and retain workers. Disadvantages by those who work remotely they found they fall there was a loss of mental stimulus or socialization are they existed in places and I know this doesn't exist in Arkansas but places where broadband internet was not readily available. less ability to learn new skills from others and management of those individuals said it was more difficult to manage those people who work totally remote than it would be face to face now you would think that that industry was a hundred percent behind this because they had savings but I'll tell you even an industry there's a diversity here you probably read in the news apple they're they're taking hits right now apple is now requiring their corporate workers to be in the office three days a week of and that's apple you know you think a technology company but apple says we want corporate workers back in the office three days a week David Solomon of Goldman Sachs want the corporate workers in the office five days a week he doesn't like remote work he doesn't think it's good for business Morgan Stanley has strict guidelines or remote work that you have to meet and most of them have to be in the office of four days a week. she brought up the states even the states differ the states that have policies California requires all state agencies offer remote options to their workers. The state of Virginia recently ended remote work policies on July the fifth. Of the state of Connecticut recently you're drastically reduce remote work days and the governor gave the reason was because of business closures in Hartford because there was no more traffic in Hartford businesses were closing down so for every advantage there's a disadvantage you have to look at it both ways so if you increase rule work you're going to decrease urban work if you're gonna take the traffic which is a good thing out of little rock you're going to take the workers paying money to the economy of Little Rock out of little rock and I wouldn't want your job because it's a tough decision which way you go because like you everything you see there's pros and cons all and so like you said we did she did a survey and she's gonna relate those then I'll come back with some suggestions at the very end thank you Mr thank you got a few questions Senator what are your record I'm sorry can I go through the survey real quick yes ma'am I thought you'd close I'm sorry yes if I can do this survey because this takes a look at your record would state that before we get into questions thank. Can you all see the slides yes okay. So this was done in August of twenty two so this is as up to date as we can be the survey will was done by legislative research our bureau the survey was distributed to fifteen departments to complete questions concerning remote work policies and practices keep in mind this is not every state employee and and in government this is I narrow look but it is a good good look at it. So the survey question number one currently are there any remote work practices or policies in place and you can see eighty percent of the department said yes and you can see the department's there those without included energy and environment inspector general and transformation and shared services. Of the Department agencies that responded no word not asked to complete the rest of the survey so we'll look at the rest of the survey how long is this policy been in place and you can see that some of them twenty percent actually had this policy over three years so pre pandemic most of it has been since the pandemic. Within this policy which of the following best describes how employees can participate in remote work and they were asked regular hybrid schedule a periodic intermittent schedule or temporary emergency you can tell that right now the majority of it is temporary or emergency policies. Which of the following best describes how employees can set their remote work schedule either it's fixed it's flexible or other and right now you can see that forty two percent say it's flexible twenty one percent fixed and then thirty seven percent other. I'm trying to go through this fast. What factors determine eligibility for remote work are all employees eligible to participate in remote work and eighty seven percent said no. Are there any temporary or emergency circumstances that would permit any an eligible employees to work remotely seventy three percent said no twenty seven percent yes our employees permitted to work remotely either temporarily or over a long term period in the circumstance that they cannot secure or do not have access to child care or dependent care sixty seven percent no thirty three percent yes. Next survey questions if any what limitations or restrictions are in place for approved remote workers so we're looking at the maximum number of days a fixed working our schedule or administrator approval required to alter remote work and you can see the results here fixed working hours schedule twenty nine percent administrative approval required to alter remote work hours eighteen percent. Survey question is any equipment offered or provided to the remote employee because these or other factors that we need to think about so thirty four percent are given hardware twenty nine percent accessories twenty seven percent software and keep in mind they can check more than one box when the answer these questions. If any what monitoring practices or accountability measures are in place for employees working remotely and sixty eight percent responded that it's communication requirements and standards meaning a required responses to emails within an hour required participation in conference calls shared calendar updates some others require written documentation as and submitted reports record keeping of day assigned assignments or tasks. What administrative guidelines our metrics are used to evaluate the effectiveness of remote work and the largest is employee feedback at forty five percent from participants supervisors and non participating employees. And then this one is the final slide and I thought really. Is very telling what impacts these remote work policies and practices made on the workplace and when you look at an employee recruitment fifty three percent say that it's helping with employee recruitment if you if you if you look at those other the slightly helpful moderately helpful very helpful and extremely helpful all combined employee retention eighty seven percent say it's helping with employee retention. Employee productivity only seven percent say that it's not helpful at all the other ninety three percent say that employee productivity apparently goes up. And then workplace morale again seven percent say it's not helpful at all but the other ninety three percent say yes it is very helpful so I think there's enough here to say we need to look at this but we need to have protections in place because we want to be good stewards of our taxpayer dollars and make sure that we're getting good employees out of this as well so. I will open up for do you do one of those okay what will open it up for questions again this is just a starting point my goal would be is that we we continue this discussion and maybe in the next session we come up with a plan that give some guidance to all of our state agencies to all of state government to say we want you to allow some remote work but what are those guidelines what are we willing as legislators to say how far are we willing to allow it to go. That's kind of a pilot program maybe for two years and maybe if we could understand more of the cost savings related to it if we have all this lease space and now we don't need someone in an office every day during the week can we get rid of some of the lease space that we have and save money there. we'll take questions okay senator garner you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr I appreciate Dr Jones bring up some of the natives because my first complaint on this benefit exhibitor eighty two I don't see any kind of negative impacts that would affect us as well obviously you she spoke of private industry in the Commission Applebee's on must also said he wants to move back remote this state jobs and one thing I've seen in south Arkansas in the private industry non magic may be similar in. The public such are the public sector for two as well as actually the inverse of what you said Dr Jones in south Arkansas were very rule community we have a few. Fortune five hundred major companies down there and what they found is. When the certain jobs are offered people will not move there because they want to stay in the bigger cities of Houston or Dallas or little rock or Fayetteville and won't move the self Arkansas because now they can do remotely and while I can understand it for the community the company is not necessarily a negative thing FOR south Arkansas where you don't have that person moving down there you don't have the tax base their kids are going to school they are investing community that becomes a problem now that's public or private sector they can do what they want to write within reason. Government is different because I can imaginary where all these local offices where you have to go get your DMV or you have to do this now being centrally located in Little Rock and you do it on a computer screen to resume somebody down south Arkansas is that a reality you could see happening with if we move more to remote where you put the central hub in little rock or Fayetteville or Jonesborough and kind of forget the smaller areas of the state. Yes Sir you're absolutely right the the downside is that. If you're going to allow remote workers to work for you from somewhere outside of Arkansas that reverse of that is going to happen that people outside the State of Arkansas want the jobs in Arkansas they're not going to contribute to Arkansas economy they're gonna take the jobs now if you're planning from a private sector you're saying but if I have a better employee better qualified who lives outside this state that's a benefit to the private sector because they're not as worried about the economy so for you as the state you have to worry about how many of those jobs are going to go to people out of state you're not going to contribute and just to give you a brief analogy I made a presentation not too long ago about exclusively online education and we're Arkansas's knowing and we look at how many people are coming to Arkansas to take online programs it was a big number the problem was there were more Arkansans who were going online programs outside the State of Arkansas with made in the deficit and you can have the same thing here it's a two way street you open it up one ways on automatically open that up the other your you make an excellent point is going to depend on you know what you think is best what the overall benefits are going to be bring about excellent point yes Sir any that's a great point all out of state as well and I was gonna bring it up afterwards but I'm worried about interstate as well if if you have the centralized location site you can work you can give some idea of the visit in all right Arkansas are from but you can be sitting in Little Rock do it that person never moved to South Arkansas and there may be some cost benefit analysis to it but you're losing that state employee being actually located in the area where they're serving as well as is that possible as well well and of course the that would have been that would only be if you went totally online what we in this is my personal opinion my personal opinion what works best it is a hybrid scheme where you're allowed to work from home two days a week you're in the office three days a week there somewhere if you can do from home some days you come in and if that's the case there's still going to be working at your location they're not going to come to the central location of little rock some companies have actually gone to and I think the. The the word that uses Hotelling also what they do is you don't have to come to the office in little rock to do it we're going to set up a satellite office in south Arkansas and so we've got five or six that work around elder radio and so we're going to pick to pick up a small business office down in any other rate or maybe real estate cheaper than leasing office space in Little Rock and so we're gonna lead every all of our employees from south Arkansas instead of coming to little rock to where we're going to still keep you in at a central location because remote work doesn't necessarily mean in the industry where all work from home there's a lot of alternative rather than home and office that's why someplace that sometimes they have distance like they place and maybe just a slight happens to be in southern Arkansas thank you and and I just wanna add that I've actually heard from some state employees that this would give them the opportunity to move out of little rock they want to move to a different school system they want more land they want House that's less expensive and they can get that in a more rural area and would still allow them to work for the state government and the job that they currently have so again there's always different ways in different situations. Representative right you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman Julia there's no doubt my mind that it that it will work in it a lot of it just depends on the type of work that it is of I did this in two thousand and two I think we were the first council that act actually ever perform that type duty in in what basically if you ran into is I had a lady that works Dade's in the sessions office well you know she. Was about nine eight or nine months pregnant and she was having complications but she was a very very good worker and I decided to try this and I work with my computer people and they basically could Senator up online with the courthouse at that time and what what happened was. You could actually go into your computer with a windows X. P. at that time And you could go online with that person that was working. And you know those average of twelve and fourteen days a day and I was saying something like sixteen that were being performed from home. But Julie the only problem that I could see with that situation if you're limited in office a specially an office that works for the public. It can hurt you just a little bit because you don't have that current service of that person is working that particular day that can help the public and it does hurt a little bit there but other than that I couldn't see anything at all but good that came out of that. But that one more representatives arise at a question is is question but is like an answer. Hi John well I I do want to you mentioned something about health so let's back up pre pandemic okay people used to come to work coughing and would come to work sometimes with fever okay because you wanted to present yourself as I'm gonna come even though I'm sick I'm a hard worker I want to prove to my boss that I'm not going to be a slacker I'm still gonna come to work and work well nowadays you come to work in your coffee you're making other employees in that room uncomfortable and so if if even allowing them to work from home while they have this coughing or while they have fever they might still be able to work and get some work done and not have to take that sick day and still can have a productive day so there are advantages also I'd like to point out people with disabilities this is a great tool to be able to utilize and get people with disabilities to actually work they may not be able to drive to a location to work but they can still work from home there's a lot of tools that might be available for them to work from home or maybe they can't work in an environment with lots of noise or other social interactions but they certainly can perform a lot of computer activities from from their house so there's flexibility there to utilize more people with disabilities and in this way and adds more flexibility with some some frameworks that are there. I pledge have let your question thank you representative speak sure recognized for a question thank you Mr chair. Mine is pretty bands making a statement. But. I've had phone calls from constituents and I guess we got it going on here in our state right now and I have called in and they hear barking dogs they hear ex kids a screaming they here and they said it they appear to just have got out of band to come and talk on the phone so we are going to have to be very careful I think when you do this because there are just certain jobs I'm not against people working from home if they actually work in but it's going to have to be very carefully done don't you think well and that's why I think we as a legislative body need to set some guidelines that's why we're having this discussion because right now we're not involved in any of those decisions and I think we need to be involved in some of those decisions at setting up a framework of what might work and again sending this into a pilot study for perhaps two years and let the agencies come back and say what they discovered if we encourage remote giving giving them and okay that it's okay to experiment with this particular job with this particular person what's the cost savings with that you know what can we see on down the road with that and come back and evaluated in two years but they don't need to be the person that's answering that telephone when they call into the State. And again you know what what jobs. Senator Bledsoe you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair My question is for Dr Jones have course we talked before the meeting we talked about accountability and I think that's come up several times and we want great accountability because has up represented speak says we don't want the things that that would happen and she was telling us a I think this is a great thing for single parents what we found in the pandemic when they were allowed to stay at home some probably would have had to quit because of all the the problems with the being at work and and having children not in school and that kind of thing so I think you can add to your list of things that would be good and and the advantages to What we're trying to do here with this study with that would be single parents but I'm going to tell you what I supported this as a state we are in trying to increase broadband and all the rule areas and I love the rule areas that are in my district and I think that that of the small towns of the backbone of America so I had hoped that it would be a wonderful thing for growing the population and some of the small towns but has a listen to the discussion of you know you're weighing those that would leave the large communities in large towns and then maybe and and and I will tell you one of the best places in America is Garfield Arkansas. So I had hope that some of this would help build the population in Garfield tell me why that can't I mean you know give me some hope here. Yes ma'am you you touched on on three things one is the dependent care and just look let me tell you that the stage when I looked at their dependent care it varies by state law and companies do the same thing sums some say this is not the child care if you've got somebody at home is not for childcare. Because we don't want that influences like representative speaks that we don't want a baby crying when they answer the phone so some of the some of the policies are you have to have a separate work spaces free from distractions NO other noises it's monitor to make sure that that doesn't happen because it is not customer friendly so why you want to serve that population you have to decide at what point of quality of service in their job are you willing to give up at that if that's the case it depends like representative representative speaks that is this a customer facing job or is it somebody who simply deals the paperwork so that's one thing the other thing you said was productivity measures the one thing that that I don't put much stake in is when you talk about productivity increases you saying the productivity increased is it the employee that saying their productivity increase if you let me wear my pajamas and work at home all day and don't have to go to work I want to tell you heck yes my productivity increased its great you have to have metrics you have to know what the baseline was of what they were producing before they went to this system what the baseline is after the system you have to have it and it has not only from the employee you've got to have employer reports on how well that employees producing there has to be communication rules some of that some of the states put in in fact a lot of them said on this report that they required a twenty four hour communication back with replies they they require their time schedule to be shared how many minutes they spend on things of their schedules had to be shared on outlook there's got to be that you can't have an isolated employee working in acts and not have any communication with management of part of your part of that's gonna be spelled and whatever policies you choose to ride the other thing is going to be included is what is the work space look like and so you have to determine that all you bring up broadband and. Let me tell ya I know I'm I'm from Lee County Arkansas and I understand broadband problems of I go down there I believe where I live and I go over to to my family home and I get there and I sit and watch a little thing twirling wait wait for something to download. We're not gonna be able to hire route we're not gonna be able to place remote workers in those areas we've got to improve the broadband that's a whole different topic I know that but as part of remote work broadband has to be increased across the state of Arkansas and you're right and it's only remote work is only going to grow in those areas that have reliable broadband because companies are not going invoice somebody who has trouble downloading so that address what your point where yes but also talked to me about. You mentioned that the disparity between you know taking people out of the work force in a large community and then put in a put in then maybe a rule I'm thinking rule anyway a smaller community are maybe just in their home you taken the traffic of what you've done this you've done that but of those same people are not combine things from the shops and all that well I'm trying to get people to go to this rule area or a rule area because we have many in the state of Arkansas and I I guess I was dreaming dreams that won't come to fruition that I had hoped that with the increase of broadband and this ability to work from home that we could populate maybe some of the rule areas to a greater degree than what we have now but it made all know if if you have broadband available and you have a quality of life and you know Arkansas beautiful places everywhere in rule areas if you have that quality of life and you have broadband that's what's going to happen that's what in the surveys everybody saying you're seeing rule America grow of verses urban areas you know for companies as you know especially and and I brought this up before and and this is as a side point up companies that and states also states that are least a lot of office space when they leave you don't have to leases much so what's the savings to the state it can how much leased office space that because now you don't need that leased office space because these people are now going to work in rural America but if you give a have a nice place and I'm sure your place is beautiful that have great internet access those are the places that are going to grow. Well I live in the hotbed of activity I live in northwest Arkansas and Rogers but there's just so many great community center small I think Garfield has six hundred and thirty of it is six hundred thirty is the population of Garfield and it's a great place and I just have a real hard to try to help them grow. And I thought this might be the end it is one of the ways again but you got to have that broadband yeah all right thank you so much. Representative back you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman and I'm apologize because this could be a little bit on the dark side but at they're just a few things I want to talk about I'm a big big advocate of exactly what you're talking about doing our fact that does studies from the insurance record on this eleven thousand dollars you what was not that different than the number that I called other people but that was a lot of that that was office space that was not going to be built so does my first challenge to you. If these people are truly working remotely. All right and they're coming in two days a week the how you handle where they're coming in two days a week and who's going to occupy that space when they're not there and the confidentiality of the records that they may have of the processing the those of those are real issues that that you have to deal with that now the other thing is is I. I read a book Capri cannot to recommend to everybody it's a great way of looking at data so I'm looking at this data and I see a few glitches all right. I see that apple is wanting their employees back more then they're out then there in place want to come back after that right so that tells you that there's a gap there whether apple's not seen the productivity are where they're at you know that that goes you're stating that you made earlier about The who's who said they were more productive that employee are employer so that's that's the definition to watch out for but there's another thing in your dating it might have been the way the question was asked if I understand you right there are there are agencies that three years or more prior to the pod pandemic had policies as far as remote working at home the question you would ask yourself discussion Freakonomics is why wasn't that growing before the pandemic now there might be an issue there might be legitimate issues about that but we need to make sure that we make sure that the we are getting the bang for the Buck and that's my question thank you. I I would just say that first of all we have made major strides in the internet providers around the state I think if we were to go back three four years there were less places available that have high speed internet we we've made major strides and we're continuing to do that so that that is a big difference and what is available You're you're looking at me strange have we not improved broadband service around the state we've spent a lot of money doing so in our continuing to spend a lot of money doing so. Yep follow up review yes please you're recognized but not follow up to that would date me the job that you're talking about you're talking about jobs are centralized in major metropolitan areas those are heirs at by large had broadband three years ago of you know had had access to it so I I I'm not that I'm just saying you need to look very closely at your numbers to make sure that that you know your apples and apples are so thank you I also think that the idea of remote work was not really accepted as much as it is now we were for it I think a lot of employees never would have dreamed of asking for remote work but they were forced to go into it and then realized over there some benefits of that so again I I think the we can't just shoot this off and say oh it's never going to work we've seen what we've how we've survived the pandemic we still accomplish things and we as legislators we work remotely a lot. We work from our home we take constituent phone calls from home or at least I do and so I know what works and I've used remote work pretty much. Last twenty years and so I think there's something that could help retain employees and recruit employees and especially this younger generation. If we don't open those doors they're going to go to other businesses that will because this is kind of the expectation moving forward and if we ignore it we're going to lose out on really good employees in the future. I wanted to make yes Sir I think I'm in a representative back I wanted to touch on how they handle that talk about office space what a lot of companies have done instead of being flexible and let everybody choose what days they one off they go through and seniority and say okay your first and we got to make sure we have enough office space for everybody let's have a thousand employees we're going to make sure that third of a work Monday Tuesdays a third or more Tuesdays Wednesdays or third of work Wednesday Thursday so what they do is they reduced by one third to one half the amount of office space they need so they still have the document storage they still have the administrative support and they still have the office space for everybody so you might not totally get rid of office space but you can reduce it by a third to a half. Thank you represented the rich when you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair and Julie I apologize to you in the committee if you answer this question while I was out but has leadership of our state agencies department heads or anybody or the ones that have come to you and said you know we need to address this legislatively now they have not as I mentioned at the very beginning which you might not have heard this actually was brought to me by state employees the idea was brought to me saying Hey this worked really well I know I accomplish this is you know employees who have been doing their job for a long time and they know they accomplished as much as they used to if not more working remotely and so they're they're coming to me saying this is a great idea I did send something out to the state some of the state agency's again there's a lot that did not get asked these questions we have asked the secretary of state we have asked the attorney general's office we have an ask constitutional offices to look at what they're doing we didn't ask our our own bureau of legislative research to answer this or our legislative audit department which are auditors probably can work from home pretty easily so there's a lot of people we didn't ask but I can't do this broad I'm you know I think I need more legislators in on this idea to investigate it further. There's enough here for us to say you know Hey to ours agency heads. what can we do going forward but I wanted to make sure we've got a legislative body that likes that idea. Okay thank you Julie thank you Doug Jones thank you Mr thank you representative Ladyman you're recognized. Thank you Mr and I'll try to be brief I hope we can with Julie like you just said I I work remotely for fifteen years for various companies and private and in public in. I think one of the reasons that we didn't go to this sooner I started back in the late nineteen nineties and I was the first employee to work remotely in a very large corporation that I won't mention but the reason that that didn't come sooner. Was because managers have a real problem with this some do some because they're giving up power and and they they don't have control of the employees and I'll give you an example when I worked for this one company I was remote you had conference calls globally every week and it's a lot of stuff was going on in the manager was fine with that I went to a different company and the the manager that I had he allow me to do it he called me like every two hours at the beginning because he had no other people working remote he was a well what he'd done you know and then he even put in thing where he could tell how many hours a day I was on my computer because Hey I'm at home I don't have any equipment you supposed to be on your computer right so call me when they subject you Miss four hours yesterday working on your computer and I said no boss I was flying to Canada during that time but the point is these managers give up power. Now if you and I'm just speaking from experience here if if you're the employee that's working remote you gotta be careful because when I did this I'm in this great I will be at home will be able to do whatever and the guy told me so well when you do this you better you have self control. And he said what I am police can do it in the same here's what one employee did and I actually started this way he said he had a little room off the mother in law room off the garage in he would get up at the breakfast seven AM leave right around the block come back come in the ground to go in this little remote rent. And at five o'clock you would do the same thing to get in the habit of controlling yourself and I started doing that in reason and it worked but the reason you need to do that is the dog barking in the the kid coming in the room and the wife have on the list of honey do things so there's a problem I'm all in for this and I think you'll see that it works retention is the biggest benefit in my mind employee retention I think it really is but you have to have guidelines and they have to be followed the computer remote computer hours on there is a great day right because I had people working for me that could not work remote they just didn't have self control and managers that wouldn't do that because then we lose the power but there is a fit and and I believe we talked about rule versus people the economy. I think that levels out I think there a lot of people want to go home and work in the area where they grew up in a lot of people want to go to the big city I don't that is big concern but it is my question is you know how do we control it how we set the guidelines it can't be every department setting their own guidelines there has to be an overall umbrella. The doctor if you speak to that but I think we have to have an overall policy that's very strict and we look at both the employee and the manager. It yes Sir and and one thing that a lot of these state or use as a guideline in twenty twelve the federal federal government passed the Federal telework enhancement act and it actually has seven components and two of them are actually exactly what you say training for the employee on how to be more motivated at home and the second part is training for the manager to note to learn how to manage a remote worker and so those are there including the other ones are a written agreement between the employee defined who is eligible for is not monitoring performance and setting up metrics did nine remote work based on loss of productivity misconduct lack and and also the ski meet substitute is not a substitute for dependent care but that federal federal guideline gives use those eight main brackets and that's a good starting point to. Represent the minute you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair I have a comment in question so my husband will probably be in the minority he did not like working at home he works for to be a he's of a you airports veteran and he liked the uniformity of going to work every day so he had to stay at home during that hi the pandemic my next question is forgive me if you already address this but I live here in Little Rock some Warren and I'm proud to be from here How does that affect urban areas if people are and I do support what you're what you're doing I have no problem with that but how does that affect our local economy when people decide to do this have you spoke on that yet can you speak on that yeah he he did he did talk about that I mean that it could help or hurt some of our bigger cities because people might move out but then again they might not and and I think what we did in the pandemic was massive and I don't think that we need everybody working from home I I I hope that you understand I'm not saying we send everybody to work from home that is not my goal at all but there are some positions that I think we need to consider allowing people to work from home in some people they're not going to want to move from Little Rock thing like the big city they're not gonna want to move from fate bill they like the big city but there are some people who have moved here and maybe they're it they grew up on the farm and Prattsville Arkansas and that's where their family is but they weren't a farmer they're an accountant and they would like to go back to where mom and dad are and would like to be closer to family and want that small town feeling and why can't we offer that if if it allows us to get this really great accountant working for us I think that's of a goal and I think the other thing is to everything's relative before I moved to John brought lived in Las Vegas when I moved to John Brock considered that a small town. then when I moved to Russellville I consider that to be a small town Joe what you got to look at as the global picture Arkansas is receiving a lot of remote workers people who want to live LA leave LA and come to a small town like Little Rock because to them Little Rock is a small town so you're gonna see a lot of people move from places like LA and Chicago and Detroit and they're going to come and that they want to a city but I don't want biggest city so it's going to be in everybody's perspective I think it's all going to balance out the long run now inside the state you might have more people move to rule areas the smaller towns but you're going to get influx of people because I think it would be a culture shock for somebody to go from LA to possum grape Arkansas I just think of the town but they might look for a fait it bill or Jonesborough I think on the overall picture we gotta focus not just on the state of Arkansas see what is going to affect the whole U. S. you're gonna have people coming to Little Rock thank you it's the small town they're looking for. Senator Ballinger you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr but the one in the numbers the same kind of striking that I'd look in this the chart is to appear is is dealing with the employment and recruitment recruitment or employee recruitment the fact that almost half the people say that is not helpful at all shows what we're doing now is we're not really serious about it right so that's it sounds like remote work that we're we're doing currently or the you know they're talking about more than anything is is a way to try to get over a problem which I think you also demonstrated that there's some reason why they need to be home and so that's why they're doing it where is if we actually set up as part of the system where we could hire somebody then all the sudden recruitment is really going to open up because then the people in possum great can come apply for a job here if if we're serious about how we how we manage it. And that's the thing that as we move forward and I do think employee retention as it is a big part of it but I think one of the areas where the state could get the benefit the biggest benefit is the fact that we open up you know the the world is our is is our our potential market right so if we're willing to do that then then that is area where that number should ship down to be more in line with all the rest of numbers where very few people say it's not very helpful for groupement. I'm trying to go back to The slide where it talks about at home please consider a. so that this kind of highlights what you're saying that right now the remote work policy we have is more a temporary or emergency situation your child is quarantine they have COVID you have to stay home from work and we're going to allow you to work from home during this time period that type of situation or you have COVID you're feeling fine you can continue to work in you're going to work from home as opposed to we're going to set this is a we're going to market this when we see when we say that this job is available it is a remote work job and that might actually help us recruit someone to work is that yeah that's why I think it says that yeah we're going I don't I mean I don't wanna say we're not purposeful but we are not purposeful about about remote work we're making it we're using it as a tool to keep things click along but rather than trying to implement it with which I think I think it's exactly what you're trying to do but if we do it with the you know the one thing I have heard but we haven't heard us talk about recruitment kind of around about way but to me is one of the areas that could be the most beneficial is that it you know if a person can live in some of these these more rural areas where they want to live and work you know we don't tend to pay people top dollar necessarily just the way the state works there's benefits another you know things but you know we may be able to to get some real talent just simply because we're willing to be more flexible on where they live. Okay thank you saying no further questions representative Mayberry have any closing comments I appreciate you all great comments great discussion I hope we can continue to talk about this talked to me in various ways anybody else might be watching online and let's see what we can come up with in twenty twenty three is kind of a a framework I don't want to shackle any anyone to a hat you have to offer tons of remote work but we need to consider this is a possibility moving forward the world is different now we can't go back to the way it was before the pandemic. Employees have experienced working from home some have really enjoyed it other companies are recognizing the benefits they're recruiting them we need to retain and recruit good employees we have a workforce shortage. So we need to do what we can. Thank you thank you representative thank good G. again doctor Jones. Committee the next item on today's agenda we have one more I asked the representative Gonzalez you're recognized to present the highest paid. Two zero two one one one four. Mr if you will would allow I'd like to advise people to the table up to maybe speed this long yes problem seven this Leslie Fisk and you'll. One. So this some we all recognize this I filed this is as a bill back during the session it was brought to my attention by a Mister Savile that these toll take mounds were were not that we don't believe or not solely built by the Toltec and is a good may have may be brought to me because that was of Mexican Dr not real sure about that anyway what. What what about the bill apparently a ruffled a few feathers so. Stacy Hurst with the Department marketers and call me and ask me if I'll put it on ice B. let them work on it I have not heard anything out of Adam from where this is gone since then but miss best can came in this morning the so that they have been working on it that they're in the process of doing some stuff some of her given a quick update she will and will okay just want to do it by yourself please. Yes Sir I'm good morning I'm Leslie Fisk and chief of legislative affairs with parks heritage and tourism okay you're recognized so I'm following up to representative Gonzalez that has bill sent to interim study and parks heritage and tourism we started researching this issue and I'm reaching out to all the interested parties including the tribes so um right now as we stand I can give you a high level summary but I'll tell you as it stands as of about four weeks ago our state park recreation and travel commission has voted to change the name I've told backgrounds archaeological state park to plan by you Mallon's archaeological state park and the timeline over I'm the past several months beginning and just really November December January February was bringing the tribes together there were several meetings that occurred that discussed the background of the name and interests in changing the name moving forward and April there was a public meeting that was held out Toltec mounds archeological state park there also was a public comment period that was advertised and communicated online we received twenty five comments concerning the change of the name and the consensus from seventeen of the twenty five commenters all people were in agreement to include plan by you in the name if the state park name was changed In may are archaeologists which is a part of the division of parks heritage and tourism with our historic preservation program had follow up meetings with all of the I'm interested tribes and there was a consensus among those tribes as well that plan by you was agreed upon name using plan by you mountains or something with and just consistently using palm by you and then at the end of July our state park recreation travel commission meeting this was presented to the I'm commission and they voted to approve the name change since that meeting at the end of July our team within parks is working on an implementation strategy dealing with the change of signage mapping and any type of literature or that has been published and so as of now we are finalizing the details of how the name change could occur to make and then following up with a public announcmenet and events I'm happy to answer any questions. Twenty no questions representative Gonzalez you have will you one of. Mr seven been waiting here for almost two hours national money letter make a few comments that that's okay I have been working remotely from the back. Mr chairman it's good to see you again good so you're recognized my name scrawled in sap CMO of the stairs and casino resort my interest in this is because my ultimate employers the qualified nation who had significant interest in this issue I am yes I did ask my dear good friend Justin Gonzales to look into this and I'm grateful that he did you know for many years I worked in the executive branch and I'm a big believer in the separation of powers but I also believe that you all are here to hold the executive accountable and I'm grateful I think this is an example of an interim study proposal I believe that will work I still have not heard a date in terms of implementation I think that's critical I want to be very clear Leslie Fisk and is a dear friend of mine she's a neighbor I've known her for a long time so nothing here is in reference to her specifically but when the bill was filed there was. I think you said outrage maybe that would your word that's mine it was it was pretty serious pushback from the agency the reason that I had encouraged representative Hollis to file a bill was because we could not find a way to write what was a historic wrong without a bill. You want to change something see if you can file a bill right that's the legislative process but it it was just nothing short of victory all that we received back from the agency. I would say I was a bit shocked because our core business in Arkansas is terrorism you know we have eight hundred eighty employees in a three hundred and thirty million dollar building this is about a hundred and fifty thousand tourism visitors a year we're very proud of what we've built in pine bluff and it was apparent to me that without some level of oversight from your behalf that this probably wouldn't happen so thank you to the legislative body for that thank you Leslie for her tireless work but I would say this really is my my main or mark. And we spend way too much time on that Saracen down at the casino if I had posted online on whether the agency would have done this without you all asking about it I would have been on the agency so thank you all for your continued interest in this thank you representative Gonzalez for following through on the interim study proposal and I will tell you I think the biggest marker for me this morning was that the sponsor of the interim study proposal himself really didn't get an update on this matter from the secretary of the agency and tell the day it was a gendered for hearing before a full panel with you all and I would take that very seriously that the secretary of the department is not communicating activities of what they're doing to you and I'm hopeful that they follow up on their word. Thank you no se no question representative Gonzalez. We have a date. We do not have a date certain as of this morning but I will follow up this week to get a date certain we've got the they have a draft strategy for communications implementation and sign changes in the reviewing not I think Thursday of this week. Thank you we appreciate you being here appreciate your testimony no further no closing comments representative. Committee this meeting is adjourned thank you.