House Agriculture Committee
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Bills discussed (1)
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HB1055
· 1 mention in transcript
Matched: “…others, which is very similar to what you have just read in House Bill 1055. That's a 2003 event. So I'm trying to kind of track this.…”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
0:00
fashioned in similar form to a bill that passed in the Oklahoma legislature within the last two years. Also in Texas, these kinds of things have been talked about. And as you read down through the bill, and I won't read it for you, but we talk about things that are normal procedures that are being allowed or should be allowed for technical people to administer. You know, this is a right-to-work state. And we ought to have people that have opportunity to create employment.
In all of my campaigns, I've been an advocate for job creation and for the opportunity for our Kansans to live and work in their home state. Now, I have nothing against the veterinarians. In fact, I've got many of them that are my friends, and I appreciate the effort that they've taken to learn their trade. But if I could today, I think we're trying to draw a line on a page. We're trying to set on the left-hand side, if you would, the technicians, that there's a line of demarcation that they cannot cross over to the right-hand side where the veterinarians are.
But the veterinarians can come from the right-hand side of the page all the way to the left-hand side of the page if necessary because they have the training necessary to administer medication and such as that. So I think that what we're doing today is trying to make what some folks are doing anyway or would like to do legal in Arkansas without fear of any legal alternative and to keep horse owners especially and folks with large animals from having to go outside the state's boundaries to acquire services
that they know are available for them based on the record of that operative. Again, competition, in my opinion, is the best regulator, and I believe that's what we're trying to do today with this bill. So, with your permission, I'd like to turn the microphone over to my friend, Jim House, and I'd like to let him talk to you a little bit about it. And at the proper time, we'll take questions, and any questions from any member
Speaker 2
2:05
or whomever, we appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 4
2:09
Thank you, Representative Smith. Jim, you're recognized. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Brown. Thank
Speaker 5
2:17
you, Committee, for listening to my comments today. My comments are going to be fairly lengthy. I realize the time frame we have for all the people in the crowd that want to make their comments, but I think it's in my duty to fully discuss kind of where this bill came from, some of the history of it, and so people will understand it a little better, because there is a lot of misunderstanding. First, I would like to say, and sorry, I have to introduce myself.
I'm Jim House. I represent no one here today except Jim House. I'm a farmer. I'm a 35-year professional horseshoer. I have been voluntarily certified as a farrier by the American Farriers Association since 1985. I'm a two-term former member of the State House of Representatives, and I am the sponsor of last year's interim study, 2009, number 244, which we gave an opportunity for the public and both sides to vent their discussion on this issue.
I am currently an unpaid advocate. I am not a lobbyist. I am an unpaid advocate for passage of this legislation. Before I get to my testimony, I want to clearly state a couple of organizations that have come to me in full support of this legislation, and at least one that I'm aware of, there may be more, that are in opposition to this legislation. The Arkansas Thoroughbred Breeders and Owners Association, a group associated with but not Oak Lawn Park,
about 300 members strong, board voted to support this legislation. I was given that information by Bill McDowell, their president. The Horseman's Benevolent and Protective Association, another Oak Lawn-type group, with approximately 1,300 members, has voted to support this legislation. their board has voted to support this legislation, former Senator Bill Walmsley and board member of that organization contacted me to notify me that we had their full support on this legislation.
The Arkansas Horse Council has full support, and they are here to testify to you today. In opposition, I'm not going to say Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association. I'm not sure if it's the association or individual veterinarians or their board, but there are certainly veterinarians in opposition to this legislation. And you're going to hear lots of testimony today from livestock owners, non-veterinary professionals, veterinary professionals, and others, in addition to the emails and calls and notes that you have been receiving
over the past days since the legislative session begun. This issue, although I don't feel it really should be, is seen as very controversial. Discussion is going on nationwide about this issue, And the press is covering this issue nationwide about what Arkansas and other states are doing. There has been an article in the Wall Street Journal about this issue. Veterinarians are often seen as protecting their turf. Non-veterinary providers are being stopped from continuing to conduct their business.
Some livestock owners are infuriated about government trying to control their choice. And you, the policymakers, are being asked to formulate appropriate public policy. Hopefully, you will see fit to assure the public policy in Arkansas is a match with what is currently going on as common practice in our state. The practice has been historically accepted here in our rural state, the land of opportunity. A history of what's going on here.
Act 650 of 1975 created the Arkansas Veterinary Practice Act. In 1993, Act 1198 amended the Veterinary Practice Act to clearly list acupuncture, dentistry, animal psychology, animal chiropractic, therian genology, the veterinarians can explain that term, as procedures that can only be provided by a veterinarian in Arkansas. This restriction is so tight that with the exception of chiropractic, none of those
practitioners can practice under the supervision of a vet. Only the veterinarian can practice those procedures. That's the state law. Chairman Brown, has the Veterinary Practice Act been distributed to the members? Yes, it has. Okay. If I could, and the pages may be different, I would like for the members to go to, on my legislative version, it's page three, but But the practice of veterinary medicine. I think that's a very important part of what you're going to be listening to today.
It's on page two, Representative Smith says. The practice of veterinary medicine. On my form, I have underlined diagnosis. It says the diagnosis, treatment, correction, change, and I'm not going to read to you legislators. You're perfectly capable of reading all those. But it's very restrictive, and it says only a veterinarian can do those tasks. then it clearly lists some functions that I mentioned before, acupuncture, equine dentistry, and others that absolutely cannot be practiced. The others, you must read into the act. You must
say, what do we do? During the interim study, I asked Dr. Tate, a veterinarian, are horseshoers exempted from the Arkansas Veterinary Act? He says, if they diagnose, if they diagnose, They must be a veterinarian. I have before me today, and I'm going to speak for the horseshoers briefly, I have before me this tool. This is called a horse hoof tester. It does not allow me, it doesn't drive nails, it doesn't trim feet, it allows me to diagnose lameness,
and the other horseshoers in this group will say the same thing, it allows me to diagnose a lameness in a horse when my client comes to me and says, Jim, my horse is lame, the barrel race is Saturday night, can you fix him? This is part of the tools. It doesn't allow me to do the work. It allows me to diagnose what the problem is. Now, I've been told, and I've read in the statewide publications that, Jim, you're a horseshoer, you're not diagnosing, you're forming an assumption, and you're playing with words. No, I'm not playing with words. Jim House, the horseshoer, does diagnose horses for his customers on a routine basis.
Speaker 10
8:35
And therefore, I am a criminal and in violation of the Arkansas State Veterinary
Speaker 5
8:43
Practice Act. You have this in front of you, and I think it's an important thing. The important thing for you, you have just read the definition of the practice of veterinary medicine. And then on page 11 on my copy, and Representative Smith can probably help me here, are the exemptions to what can be done. There are some exemptions in this state to the definition you have just read.
Page 12. The first exemption you'll note is suddenly if you are a federal or a state government employee, there's some things you can do that you can't if you're not a private citizen. The second thing you will note in number three is that reciprocal aid of neighbors in performing routine accepted livestock management practices, that term is not currently defined. You'll see it defined in the code that we have proposed to you. You'll see that definition of those terms, but it's not defined in the current code. So reciprocal aid of neighbors, you can do that without compensation.
The owner of the animal and his consignees can do those routine acts for themselves. Where we come to a rub with what goes on in the state of Arkansas, and I think every one of you gentlemen know that, there are fellows and ladies that work down at the sale barn, or they're a cattle hauler, and they do different topics. They do different discussions. You can very easily in this state hire those individuals to come to your property and do these type of routine acts, castration, dehorning. It is very common practice in this state, and they are criminals in this state for performing outside the line of this law.
So I think if you'll read those, you'll see what we're dealing with here. And the last one, number nine, is a fairly recent addition to the Veterinary Code where it deals with chiropractors. Those businessmen, those tradesmen, those professionals can practice in this state of Arkansas if they are supervised by a veterinarian. They cannot practice on their own. That differs a long ways from human medicine. If I want a massage on my body, I go to a massage technician. If I
Speaker 10
10:41
want to go to a chiropractor, I don't go to my family doctor.
I go to a human chiropractor. If I want acupuncture, I don't
Speaker 5
10:49
go to my doctor. I go to an acupuncturist. We've got a lot of differences in here. And one of the differences you need to think about is horseshoeing. All these acts, these performance acts, are not totally veterinary medicine. A lot of what we do as horseshoers and teeth floaters, acupuncturists, chiropractors, is done to enhance the athletic ability of an equine or other animal. And that is part of health. That's certainly part of health to enhance that performance.
The next thing I would like for you to move to in the history of where things are going on, with that change in 1993 where horse teeth floaters were told you cannot practice in this state, Seven years later, starting in the year 2000, eight letters of cease and desist have been sent to entrepreneurs, businessmen, tradesmen in this state and told, you may not practice equine dentistry in the state of Arkansas unless you are a veterinarian. Interestingly, there has never been, at the organization that controls this law,
there has never been a complaint registered to the Veterinary Board of harm done to a horse by a veterinary or a non-veterinary provider of these services. There has never been. So the reason these people have been stopped is because we, I shouldn't say we, well, yes, I can say we. I have been in your position. We have set public policy that tells the veterinary board these people may not practice in this state. It's your job, veterinary board, to enforce that rule. Go enforce it.
Speaker 10
12:23
Eight letters of cease and desist. Now, I would like to speak to
Speaker 5
12:27
you directly from some of the documentation received by Freedom of Information from the Veterinary Board about some of these letters. I have not copied it for you. It's many, many pages, and there are individuals' names in this, which I will not reveal unless you would like for me to reveal those names for you. It is public information, but I don't know that it's best to reveal those names. Let's see. This is in 2009, to a lady in Springdale.
The Arkansas Department of Health received an email stating that this lady practices medicine out of Elm Springs without medical license on people and also offers veterinary services. Her business card listed her as a certified equine massage therapist and an equine international therapist. A cease and desist letter was sent to her as a massage therapist on horses that you cannot practice in this state. You must be a veterinarian to be an equine massage therapist.
Further, I'm not going to go very long with this, but I'm going to go a couple pages later and give you two more brief things. Documentation, again, from the board, from a veterinarian on the board to a staff person there. It says, it says from the staff person, I received a call from the veterinarian in a town in Arkansas, that this person, phone number such, floated teeth of a client's horse.
He said this has been going on for some time. The veterinarian said this has been going on for some time, and Mike and another person is also aware of it. Do I have permission to write a cease and desist order to this person? Yes, on the cease and desist. But now that Oklahoma is allowing this by the lay people, a can of worms is going to be opened and we may have to reevaluate our position now if you would like to have that documentation it's certainly available to legislators but that's that
was that was gotten by freedom information from the state veterinary board so the point I want to make is nobody did bad practice there's no nothing about bad practice there is about you don't fit the criteria that the state veterinary board has that allows you to practice this job in Arkansas I encourage you to change that criteria so those type of practitioners can practice. Chairman Brown, has the committee been handed a copy of the National Model Veterinary Practice Act? Yes, I believe they have.
Okay, committee. We'll be on the same pages on this one. I want to refer you
Speaker 16
15:06
to page page 8. Are these pages numbered that way? Page
Speaker 5
15:12
8, yes. Now, this is not a law. This is the recommendation of the American Veterinary Medical Association on what a state law should say. This was formulated in the year 2003 with some additions after that. But I would state to you that since 2003, our veterinary board has not come to us and said, our national standard has been
changed. We probably need to change that in Arkansas. That has not come forward from the controlling group, so it's coming to you from a former legislator. I refer you to number three where it says exemptions any person advising with respect to performing or performing acts that the board has designated by rule as accepted livestock management practices should be exempted number eight any person lawfully engaged in the art or profession of horseshoeing should be exempted now ladies and
gentlemen of the committee I think the horseshoeing part of this is a very small part. No horseshoes are being stopped. But since the National Veterinary Code's model ordinance suggests that states specifically exempt that, I think everybody's in agreement, let's just do that. Let's just exempt horseshoeing like the national standard says. Like every client in the state of Arkansas feels probably about their horseshoe or they don't think they're going to be a veterinarian, they were shocked. And honestly, people thought I was crazy for proposing a regulation where they had to be a veterinarian when I was actually
proposing exactly the opposite another one the other one is the employees the owner and the employees can do these that do these tasks and then I want you to turn the page to page 9 and it's going to take a little time but read this section that defines further livestock management practices what has the vet what is our state veterinary board had suggested to them by their national organization that they would change their law to in the content in In the context of Section 3 about the Livestock Management Practice, it refers to those cosmetic
and sociable procedures currently considered essential and routine individual animal husbandry techniques necessary for the management of groups of animals raised at various levels of confinement and used by the MVPA as termed Livestock includes cattle, horses, sheep, goats, no
Speaker 10
17:24
small animals. We're not talking cats and dogs in any of this. We're talking livestock. consider determining whether
Speaker 5
17:33
a particular procedure, the Board must and should consider in determining whether a particular procedure, technique, or endeavor is accepted livestock management practice, according to these states, and the rule of non-surgical animals, and
it suggests these terms, artificial insemination, dehorning, castration, or emasculation of male animals during performance, and many others, which is very similar to what you have just read in House Bill 1055. That's a 2003 event. So I'm trying to kind of track this. In 2010, Oklahoma changed their law. And I'm going to say something that some might consider perhaps out of line and some might consider very appropriate to this discussion. I'm going to stop and go back to the beginning of time.
The beginning of time. If you have a Bible laying in your house that you open and read on any basis, I think you'll recall on the fifth or sixth day, God is said to have created the animals and man and gave man the dominion over the animals. I think every livestock owner in this room, whether they like horses or perhaps they're raising cattle for us to eat as individuals, and that's what our business is about, we have dominion. We have the responsibility to be good stewards,
to see that these animals that don't have a choice are treated correctly in our nation, in our world. And that is not the role of the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association. It is the role of the livestock owner. And I would contend to you that that is what's going on in this state today when people choose their person. Now let's get to more current. August 2011, we notified everyone. I notified the veterinary lobby. I notified the legislature. We are going to go to Stuttgart, Arkansas, and we're going to propose in August 2011 that we study,
through interim study proposal, this issue of practices that could be done by a non-veterinarian. We went to Stuttgart. The veterinarians were present. The lobbyists were present, many legislators were present, and all we did was vote that this could be studied. In Stuttgart, we went there to say this can be studied. On September 15th, with full notification of all the stakeholders in this issue, we sat in this room and heard public testimony about this same issue. This is not new. Several of you were here that day.
People were notified about this regulation, and they heard about it. First, here's the interim study proposal. Here is the interim study proposal. I will not read the whole thing in reference to time, which is getting out of hand. It requests that the House and Senate Interim Committees on Agriculture, Forestry, and Economic Development to study the current public policy set forth in the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Practice Act concerning certain animal care practices currently or previously conducted by non-veterinary practitioners. We have studied this clearly since August.
Speaker 23
20:22
We don't need to continue to study a long time. We need everybody to understand, but we need to take some action in this state. At
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
20:30
that time... Representative House. Yes. I sure don't want to cut you off, but we have got 30 people that want to testify, and I know that we're not going to
Speaker 5
20:39
be able to hear them all. Okay. Let me get five minutes. Yes, sir. Just please sum up. I'll push it. I'll push it hard. You have, I think, on your table about 50 pages of e-mails that came in at that time, And you've got plenty of e-mails that have come in recently expressing the same views.
Horseshoeers and veterinarians do diagnose. What has happened since then, I'm in November. We had an important election in this country, the United States of America, and some legislators that were in office, like me, were turned out of office by voters that thought someone else would be better. Representative Collins, congratulations. Many people campaigned on lesser government, choice of the people, jobs, economic development, let's get this going. That's what this bill is about. I've given you a lot of information. I've told you, if you trust me, and I've told you, and I've given you information about
how long we've talked about this, where we are, and where we need to go. And I would ask that with everybody getting time to understand that it's not time for an interim study. had an interim study, and you're going to hear a lot more testimony today, and I'm going to break and let them do that. It's time for you, the committee, to give livestock owners in this state the choice to select the practitioner that they would like to use, and I will conclude and take
Speaker 10
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questions, or I will be here for the duration if you want questions later. Thank you, Mr. House.
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
22:03
Do we have any questions by any member of the committee?
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Representative Ratlin. You talked about this law in Oklahoma. Do you have a
Speaker 5
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copy of that law? I have one somewhere in a much bigger stack of information. It is somewhat different from ours. It removes more responsibility from the veterans and gives more than we're proposing to the livestock owners. Okay. And are there other states that have done this? Oklahoma has done this. Not this exact law.
Speaker 10
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Missouri is looking at a law very, very close to this law,
Speaker 32
22:39
and you'll hear testimony on that later should we have time. Okay. Mr. Ratliff, may I interject?
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
22:44
We looked at the Oklahoma law and with the legal attorneys in the Bureau, and I questioned Representative House at the very outset. I said, you're not going to mess with the way I tend to my business with my cows and my horses. He said, no, that's not what it's about. It's to open up job creation. It's to allow people that want to do these kind of things to do it. So if you read the Oklahoma law, theirs is more restrictive toward veterinarians
than what we've formulated here. And this viewpoint that we have is patterned similar to it, but there is a need to open up some of these venues and give people an opportunity to have a job. But it's nothing taken away from the veterinarians because we don't have enough large animal veterinarians. And I'm blessed. I'm working right now on creation of a 2-plus-2 school with SAU Magnolia and Mississippi State University. I talked to Tony just a few minutes ago in the Bureau.
about that, and we're working that paperwork. That may take another session to get it completed, but I realize we need more large animal vets, and I think that the owner needs to have some flexibility because it's his investment. That horse or that herd of cattle, he's not going to do something that's going to jeopardize his opportunity to make at least a success of that, and I believe this gives him that freedom. Thank
Speaker 33
24:05
you. Are you concluded with your questioning?
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
24:09
Let me barge right on in here and ask a couple of questions. And this is either one of you at the
end of the table. Do you think that veterinarians would be held at a higher level of standards than a non-licensed person that's
Speaker 5
24:29
performing the same procedure? by this law absolutely not these procedures we've listed come outside the veterinary practice act therefore they can practice these acts under whatever position they want to now if they the
veterinary board chooses to add additional restrictions to veterinarians that's their choice okay uh another
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
24:47
issue that hasn't been brought up as yet of course we're still early in this meeting. Talk to me about the medicines, about
Speaker 4
24:56
sedatives. When we had the interim study, the veterinarians were strongly against providing, letting anyone but
Speaker 5
25:01
a veterinarian have sedatives. There is, as you've read the act, there is nothing in this and it even clearly states no one gets sedatives except a licensed veterinarian.
Speaker 37
25:11
Talk to me about medicines that are being
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
25:14
used now by the horse owner if a layman or I don't mean that derogatory, but if a person that's non-licensed is doing a certain procedure and that horse needs to be sedated and it's being done now, tell me about that procedure. And I will
Speaker 4
25:33
clearly speak for myself on that from my own
Speaker 5
25:36
personal experience. I am a horseshoe of 35 years. When I was a young man, I thought of myself as a cowboy,
and I'd crawl under anything standing on four feet and I would handle it. My back isn't the same as it used to be. There's some other horseshoes in here. I have several clients. I have some clients that need to sedate a horse to get him to go in a trailer. He may be the best barrel racing horse out there, but that particular animal doesn't like being in a trailer. And the vet may allow that client to give that horse a sedative to get in a trailer. I have clients that bring their horses to me. They take them out of the trailer, and some news media people have seen that happen. And the client has in his hand a syringe and a needle full of whatever the veterinarian has provided him with.
He gives that horse the shot and then brings it to me after a period of time, and I work on it. I would say my client, in many times, has done that less for the horse and more for Jim House. If you've never seen a horseshoer climb under a 1,000-pound horse and drive nails in his feet, some of those ponies are not gentlemen, and they need a little help, and if they're not going to wool me around too bad, thank you, client, for helping me do a more reasonable job on your horse by giving
Speaker 39
26:45
him a sedative before I start. So you're
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
26:48
telling me then that non-licensed people that's doing these procedures,
they do not administer the medicines themselves? I will
Speaker 4
26:55
not speak for another professional. I can tell you I do not. All right, sir. That's fair enough. Any other questions?
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
27:04
Representative? I'm sorry. I'm sorry we have a list here. Representative
Speaker 41
27:11
Leatherman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. House? Gary, we've discussed this issue quite a bit, and I feel pretty comfortable in my stance on this. I have extensive experience.
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
27:22
A couple problems I have with this is I'm concerned about the health of the horse. I am concerned about, and our chairman alluded to that, sedation of the animal. What about antidotes? Those things. And current law does not prevent that owner from giving an animal sedative. It does not prevent that. It does not prevent someone who is day labor or working as an employee of that owner from doing any of these acts that you've talked about.
Where do, I mean, if a veterinary, and I think we need a vet, to prescribe the medication for sedation, because if you lay that old pony down and he don't get back up, it's a lot more trouble to get a backhoe there to bury him than it is to take
Speaker 5
28:14
him to the vet. My first comment is I want to respectfully disagree a little bit, and that's what we're here for. I don't think the current practice act allows an owner to do that practice unless it is listed as a routine act of livestock management.
The vet practice act does not give you the animal owner the ability to go out and do open-heart surgery or some things on a horse or a cow. It gives you the opportunity to do routine acts of livestock management. And those are not listed in this state. This law you're looking at, 1055, lists those, and giving that is not one of them. We could put that in there if we would like to. We could add by amendment that livestock owners can give those shots. It's not a routine act of livestock management unless we say that it is or it's commonly thought that it is. So if you think that that's a common practice, yes, you can.
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
29:01
It's up to you and your attorney. I don't know of any livestock owners that have
Speaker 17
29:10
been prosecuted because they performed castration, dehorning, or normal vaccination procedures. Respectfully, until seven years after the law was
Speaker 5
29:16
practiced, I hadn't heard of any people that practiced equine dentistry being told they couldn't practice their acts either. But the public policy that we, gentlemen, said is what we're dealing with. If the public policy allows things we don't want to be allowed, let's change it.
I'll be real honest. If you don't want, as cattlemen, that guy that works at the sale barn to come out and do these routine acts, let's stop them. Let's stop everyone in the state and then see how short our veterinary power is. This is a great bill for the legislature. It's a great bill for the veterinarians. It expands the scope of practice, gives them some help, somebody to work with. Most of these practitioners are working with their veterinarian right now. My veterinarian's here. I've met with him twice about the legislation and consulted with him many times about horses in my barn that need his advice before I do the work.
Speaker 48
30:02
Again, we're very friendly with each other. I want everybody to
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
30:06
know that. We are on a different side of an issue here. My son is a horse shearer. My daughter is a vet tech. Equine dentistry is so much more in-depth than just simply floating teeth. As far as knocking them sharp points off, I can do that. But there are some things that I do not want to trust to a layperson. And if you come up and tell me you're sick, Jim, I don't feel qualified to be giving you shots,
and I don't think you want me to either. But
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
30:36
we talked about those acts of dentistry, and if there's removal required, that still goes back to the veterinarian because there's blood vessels that might be, you know, it could cause a bleeding issue, and the normal technician has no qualification for that. And I don't want to give him that. I think that we need to allow that floating to be floating, but not diagnostic and not removal. And that's still the veterinarian's responsibility. So I think we're trying to create a more clear law that allows the technician to work in conjunction with,
but without fear of retribution. He should not be penalized or working behind the barn, if you would, so no one sees him out there doing his task, because I think the animal owner deserves that freedom of choice. I think that's what we said November 2nd. We want less government. We want an opportunity to do our own business. We don't need a big brother telling us how to do things. And I'm not against the veterinarians at all, but there's not enough of them. If we've got an event coming up this weekend and the granddaughter is going to run in it, she needs her horse tended to by an acupuncturist or a horseshoe or whatever,
she can't wait until next weekend for the veterinarian to get to her because he's got a busy schedule. And I think that the grandpa, and I'm a grandpa, I deserve the right to be able to get whoever I want to so my granddaughter can
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
31:55
think that's what this bill does. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A question and maybe some clarification on Section B-1 on the bill here. It says that acupuncture, chiropractor, veterinary, and dentists can be performed, basically,
as long as there's an Arkansas licensed veterinarian there with the immediate supervision. Now, my understanding is most of these procedures are going to be performed off-site. So the question I have from a practical sense, and maybe I'm reading the language here incorrectly, but if you've got to have a vet there already for them to perform these actions, what purpose would you want for the layperson? Well, the layperson, yes, I
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
32:36
do. And the layperson, in my opinion, probably sees more of these opportunities than the veterinarian.
The veterinarian is busy with other things. And I believe that we get experience by doing, and he's there because he floats more teeth than the vet. But that's who would actually be able to do it, yet the vet would be there if there needs to be a sedative or if there needs to be removal, and the diagnostic of that would be his venue. Do you not agree?
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
32:59
So the cattleman would have to have both the layperson and the vet on site in order for this to be done under the current law. So it seems like you're not saving any money. You're paying for two people to perform a procedure that the vet would already be able to do.
Speaker 6
33:13
That's a great issue. Let me respond to that because there's a couple of, one of them
Speaker 5
33:18
I kind of hate to admit, there are going to be some horse owners in this room that are going to say, why are you going to make me hire a veterinarian when I want an acupuncturist? The reason that's in there, two reasons, is look at what you're hearing now. You want me to turn that loose, and many people in the public want us to turn that loose. We can do that, but we're going to get more concern from the veterinarians group if we open this up even more. Secondly, I must be very honest, some of the people in the press here,
when we did the interim study, said, Jim House, what do they do at Oak Lawn? Now, I didn't want to drag Oak Lawn to this too far, but Oak Lawn's, the people that work behind the track at Oak Lawn are licensed, not in this state, but licensed by the Arkansas Racing Commission to do their tasks. Oak Lawn has historically not cared whether an acupuncturist, a horseshoe, or a teeth floater was a veterinarian or not, and they allowed the tradesmen to go to work on the track.
They have recently changed that law, not that law, their restriction, the Oak Lawn Race Act regulation to say we'll work under the supervision of a veterinarian. They have a racetrack there. It's a confined organization. It's big. There's lots of things going on there. But, and that's why these horsemen people, that's one of the reasons, these horsemen people that I mentioned to you earlier from Oak Lawn like this regulation, it makes our premier racetrack in this state legal under state law. Now, yes, absolutely. The horse owners here, many of them are saying,
hey, I don't want to spend the extra money. When I want an acupuncturist or I want a chiropractor, I'm going to hire one. And I think they should have that right. I would love to propose that regulation, but I've been a legislator for a while, and you see what we have in this room today. You want me to open it up
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
35:03
further? Let's do. Let's amend this act and open it up to let those people have their choice. I got a call this morning before we went to joint budget, from a horse owner that had had a veterinarian look at a young horse. And he did some work on its mouth. And then he had to go out to Texas to get his standard tooth floater to work on his animals
because we don't allow it to happen in our state. And in taking the animals down there, he said, I want you to look at this filly and see if she's okay. And in looking in the horse's mouth, he found there were four other teeth that had not been tended to that should have been. Now, I'm not throwing a rock at the veterinarian because this is one of his friends, and he uses them extensively. His point was, he said, why should I pay $165 for a service from a veterinarian when my real tooth floater corrected what the veterinarian didn't do for $85? And that's where I'm coming from.
This is something that me and you, if you've got investments in livestock, we have enough negatives to deal with with the market system. We buy it retail and sell it wholesale. So why can't we take some control of some other administrative costs and give me the freedom, I'm not going to get a Jake leg, forgive me, but I'm not going to get some bad guy to work on my animals. I'm going to talk to Jim House. I'm going to talk to my neighbor down the road. I'm going to say, who did you use, and how did they do? Were they efficient? Did they do a good job?
Did they hurt your animal? And if they did, I won't call them. But we talk to one another, and there's that interconnectability, and I just believe we need to free up that opportunity because I'm an owner,
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
36:34
and I want to be able to choose my own treatment. And I'm a small market person as well. Did the interim study look at, instead of doing it in this way, of creating a certification for vet techs or to allow these other folks to become certified to be able to do this
where you wouldn't have to have the vet on site to perform these routines, just create a whole new certification training to create, you know, more individuals. Valuate these people. Well, yes, sir, and I'm going to let Jim talk to
Speaker 57
37:05
that, but what you're speaking of sounds like larger government, and I think competition regulates.
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
37:09
And I believe that when we have a bad performer, they have to go out of business. They have to learn something else. But I'm going to let Jim address that. Thank you. I can't address that a whole lot further.
Speaker 10
37:22
What I can say is at the end of the interim study,
Speaker 5
37:26
when people have the opportunity, just like today, to make their comment. My comment was, I do plan to write legislation. I would like the assistance from anybody that will help. Notified everybody, the veterinary lobbyists, they're
Speaker 10
37:35
sitting here. They know I called them at every step. No one ever
Speaker 5
37:40
came to me and said, I would like to help write this. So we wrote something. We got it out there. We put it out there, let's see, in December, the Friday before you all went to your legislative orientation. It's been out there since then. People have had ample time to look at it.
No, what I heard in this room during the interim study had nothing to do with we want to be certified. Ask the horseshoers. The horseshoers themselves don't want to be certified. In hundreds of years of horseshoeing, they've never been certified. But you've seen this jacket I'm wearing. It says certified horseshoer. Why did I do that? To improve my ability. I tested in front of my peer group so I could say I'm certified. That's a business approach, gentlemen. That's letting people know I am certified. and if that matters to you, come hire me.
Most of my clients do not care. They know me by reputation, and the other providers you're going to hear are known by reputation, except for the teeth floaters, because they're having,
Speaker 23
38:37
if they're still practicing, they're hiding behind the barn on a Sunday afternoon, and
Speaker 63
38:47
that is not right. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. Representative Dale. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a little bit of clarification. On the bill itself, on page, looking at page two, it's actually section two, section two, six,
animal husbandry acts and routine accepted livestock management practices performed for compensation, including without limitation the following. Can you explain to me what without limitation means? That means these are examples. That means to me that we in the
Speaker 5
39:18
legislature, you and you, I'm sorry, I've got to forget, you in the legislature set these very specifically as something that cannot be taken out. The veterinary board could not say, whoa, you know, we don't like that one.
You can't take it out. The veterinary board or the legal opinion of this country would allow other things to be put there. Those are examples. And Representative Smith and I sat down with our agency attorneys to discuss that very issue. We said, how do we state that? So those are examples. That is not a comprehensive list. But veterinary board, you cannot take these out. These are things that
Speaker 2
39:57
are most commonly notified as standard practices of animal husbandry. And, again, you know, we've been
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
40:03
given that directive from the man upstairs back in the beginning of time,
that that's our responsibility. And I think ownership entails that. And I detest someone that owns animals and won't take proper care of them. In fact, I made a call just last week and told someone, I said, You've got to check on this particular individual. I think they're not feeding their animals, and that's abuse, and we need to watch that. This is not trying to open it up where it makes the animal at a disadvantage at all. In fact, I think this is better for the animal, but I know for surety that it's better for the horse owner or the cattle owner, whomever he is or she is, that they have this option.
But if they want to hire three veterinarians, they still have that option and not even a technician. But if I'm listening and hearing what most everyone's telling me and what I do myself, I want the best, and I want to be able to get the one that I choose without being mandated or told to do something. That's a subsidy. It's a hidden subsidy, and I don't like that. Thank
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
41:01
you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, gentlemen. Any other questions by a member of committee? Representative Collins.
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
41:09
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Jim and Gary, when I look at this act, and again, I'm new to reading these bills, it looks like the key thing you're doing is defining core ideas. And two of those core ideas, for example, animal husbandry and teeth floating. Is that correct, that a key part of what you're doing
Speaker 17
41:27
in this bill is defining those two things?
Speaker 5
41:32
Yes, and Representative Collins, particularly on the teeth floating, that's a major contingency here. We've left dentistry as a veterinary practice. We've left it there.
But we've said this other level, and we've defined exactly what it is, and it does not include sedatives. It does not include sedatives, and it does not, for the veterinarians, include dogs and cats. This is a large animal bill. Yes, you are correct.
Speaker 57
41:54
Thank you. But it also tells that there can be no removal. See,
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
41:58
dentistry, as one definition, includes all of that. But floating is the part that we believe can be handled by a technician. Some removal of
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
42:08
the wolf teeth, for instance, the baby teeth.
But those all come out on their own anyway. Thank you.
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
42:19
Thank you, gentlemen. Seeing no further questions, you all be excused. Let me say this to the committee as we reach this portion of the meeting. We're about to enter the part where the constituents of the state of Arkansas are going to testify. and this is their only avenue of expressing their opinion both for or against
so we as a committee should give them the utmost courtesy now I realize and I tell this to everyone that signed up to speak today there's no way that everybody's going to get to speak but I'm going to start at the top and we're going to go for and against please please try to say what you want to say in the less amount of time but I don't mean to rush. We want to be out of here by 12 o'clock, and I do want to take a vote on this issue today. So try to give everyone a chance to say their piece.
I will allow everyone that we can to speak, but I will not accept repetition. If you have something that's worthy to say that we need to hear, please say it. But if somebody wants to say something about good old Joe that takes care of my horse, and the next one's to talk about Randy that takes care of his horse. We don't need to hear that. Okay?
Speaker 63
43:43
Let us begin. First person to speak for the bill is John Broshu. Is that right, Mr. Broshu?
Speaker 40
43:50
What is this? That's another one after here. Okay. Okay. Chairman
Speaker 76
44:00
Brown. MR. Please recognize yourself for the record. MR. My name is John Brochu from Fayetteville, Arkansas, and I am an equine teeth floater. MR. John, is your mic on? MR. The green light's on. Yes, sir. MR. Thank you. Yes, sir, it is. Chairman Brown, members of the committee, thank you for having me here to speak on this
Speaker 82
44:24
issue. I'm speaking for this issue. I've been involved with teeth loating since 1984. I learned from a lay floater, but I also spent six months early in my career with a veterinarian. I learned a lot about veterinary medicine with the veterinarian. I've worked with veterinarians during my career, and I consider myself very vet-friendly. I have good friends as veterinarians. I think you're going to find that I find teeth floating very interesting, but gentlemen,
it is not rocket science. It is very simple. I am taking the same balance that a horseshoe would bring to the foot, I'm bringing that to the mouth. I have brought a skull today. I had this at the interim study. For those who have not seen a horse's skull, not horsemen, you'll see that the horse has teeth all the way up to the midpoint of the eye, and because horse's teeth are different
than human teeth, they have enamel ribbons through them, they're not coated with enamel. When they chew, the softer part of the teeth will wear, but the enamel ridges will get sharp. So my job is to simply and safely float the inside of the lower jaw and the outside of the upper jaw to allow the horse to chew his grass and grains.
This is something that I have done on racetracks in Arkansas, New Jersey, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I have worked for veterinarians. I have a lot of miles, literally and figuratively. I've worked last year in Kansas and in Japan, but I didn't work in Arkansas. I was given a cease and desist approximately two years ago.
I stopped working in Arkansas two years before that. A veterinarian had asked the state board if he could be a referral center for equine dentistry. In his proposal, he was going to solicit other veterinarians and wanted to know if that was legal. In his proposal, he put that he would be bringing in an equine dental technician, as he called me, to work under his direct supervision. This veterinarian was told that his license would be at risk if he did that. It was against the Practice Act.
At that point in time, I stopped working in Arkansas for the fact that I would work with veterinarians, and if I worked with a veterinarian, I was putting their license at risk. It would be disingenuous of me not to tell the veterinarian that their license was at risk. It was ignorance is no excuse of the law, but I had an ethical duty to not work with veterinarians if I could be causing them to not make a living and put food on their table.
I've done a number of horses. In the mid-1990s, I stopped counting. It might be a function of age. I stopped counting at 50,000 horses. I do my craft well. In fact, I have lectured and done wet labs, which is physical demonstrations at the North Carolina Vet School. I have been continuing education for the Alabama State American Association of Equine Practitioners state meeting. And this spring, I will be talking
at the Ohio Vet School, lecturing and doing a wet lab for the veterinary students. I think can be done safely and simply, and I honestly feel that the owners are the best judge. If someone finds a good horseshoer, a good horse dentist, they might tell their friends. If they find someone that's incompetent, they will tell anyone that will stand long enough
to listen. They don't even have to be a horse owner to watch out for this guy. The owners, I think, have the innate intelligence. I think their interest is the horse. In fact, my clients are horses. The owners just pay the bill. My responsibility is to the bets for that horse. And I think that there are other people who are equally as qualified as I am.
Folks talked about certification. I happened to be one of the first people that were certified by an organization called the International Association of Equine Dental Technicians at the time, now known as the International Association of Equine Dentistry. And I was an examiner for the certification program. Now if I were to become a vet tech, I could do a lot of things. But unfortunately, and perhaps someone should speak to this issue, they do not teach equine
dentistry in vet tech school. Someone mentioned standing sedation. I have never put a needle in a horse that I didn't own. I raised horses for a long while. I would work on my own horses. That is between the veterinarian and the horse owner. And someone mentioned, you know, if you lay a horse down, the veterinarians can speak to this because they're controlling the drugs, but dentistry is usually done with a standing
sedation where the horse does not lay down. And I believe that perhaps some of the misunderstanding is the fact that we're talking about routine floating, removing wolf's teeth, which are vestigial teeth in the bill, I believe, and baby teeth or caps, as they're called in the industry. And we're just simply reestablishing balance in the horse's mouth. I think if we're looking at the need, we're looking at the horse owners are always looking
for the best for their horse. I would hope and I would encourage members of this committee to support this bill to bring the law in line with what is happening in Arkansas every day. I thank you, gentlemen, and if there's any questions,
Speaker 89
51:28
Mr. Chairman? I believe we have a question. Vice Chairman Burris. Thank you, Mr.
Representative John Burris
Unverified
51:35
Chairman. You partially answered it as you went along there, but when I was contacted by my local Farm Bureau, the number one question was the sedation.
You said that you've never administered a sedative in your practice. Is that normally left up then
Speaker 92
51:49
to the animal owner? It is, and you know, sometimes appearances speak stronger than actions. If
Speaker 82
51:55
I was in a barn working with a veterinarian, and I'm dating myself now because the cell phones were hooked up to the car, to their truck, and the horn would go up in the truck and the vet would say to me, hold this syringe. I would say, no, I'll hold the horse, let the horse owner hold the syringe, because
I didn't want anyone looking in the barn and saying, I saw a horse dentist with a needle in his hand.
Speaker 32
52:20
And I have a question about the legislation and how that affects this, but I'll wait until the presenters
Representative John Burris
Unverified
52:24
are back up for that, I guess, in the closing. Thank you. Do we have other questions? Thank you, Mr. Boucher, for coming. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 37
52:39
Next on the list to speak against, Mr. Landon Tate.
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
52:57
Please recognize yourself and who you're with,
Landon Tate
Unverified
53:02
Mr. Tate. My name is Landon Tate. I am a veterinarian. I represent the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Examining Board. I am a veterinarian graduating in 1970 from Oklahoma State University and been practicing mixed animal medicine for the last 40 years. About the last 10 because of medical reasons, mainly arthritis in my arms from palpating cattle,
Speaker 97
53:27
I've quit cattle work and I do mainly equine and
Landon Tate
Unverified
53:31
small animal. I am past president of the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association. I'm on the Board of Managers for the Southwest Veterinary Symposium, and I'll relate that to my comments here in just a few minutes. I'm the legislative chairman for the Sebastian County Farm Bureau. I'm on the equine commodities section of the State Farm Bureau.
and as stated earlier, I am a member of the examining board. First of all, I'd like to, I'm going to do this in three sections. I'm going to present the practice act and what it does and what it establishes. Then we're going to present to you this immediate past year's actions of the board as far as complaints go and the
Speaker 97
54:30
continuing education that we have approved.
Landon Tate
Unverified
54:33
Last, I'll try to inform the committee how this bill affects the Practice Act. First of all, the purpose of the act was to establish the board. The board is composed of four veterinarians that are practicing. They have to have been practicing for at least five years. They are appointed by the governor. And then one member is a public member that can never have had any contact or anything
to do with veterinary medicine. it's a rancher that has an interest and has some knowledge of an animal profession, and in this
Speaker 97
55:24
case it's Mr. Wingfield Martin, he is our public member. It sets qualifications for licensure. This means that anyone that holds a veterinary
Landon Tate
Unverified
55:36
license must be a graduate of an accredited veterinary school. Excuse me, Mr. Tate.
Yes. please close the door. I'm sorry Mr. Tate, go ahead. They have a minimum of 21 years of age. They must pass the National Veterinary Board exam and the State Board exam. It certifies continuing education and in Arkansas the veterinarians are required to have at
Speaker 97
56:11
least 20 hours of continuing education prior to the time of re-licensure, which is 1st of March.
And this is on page 15 and 19 in that handout if you all want to follow along. And by the way, I will be
Landon Tate
Unverified
56:32
skipping around in this book. I'm not taking it in order. The continuing education courses are pre-approved by the board. board, we have a state convention each year that supplies at least 20 hours that's required. We also have the Southwest Veterinary Symposium, which is a high-level continuing education
that is owned by Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Texas, and Louisiana, and this is an organization And it brings in world-class speakers for continuing education in all fields of veterinary medicine. And
Speaker 103
57:05
I am on that board. We go to page 12 into the exemptions. And I
Speaker 103
57:22
exemptions, but there are number three on page 12,
Reciprocal aid of neighbors in performing routine accepted livestock management practices without
Speaker 95
57:32
compensation. This allows you or any animal owner to perform medical procedures on your
Landon Tate
Unverified
57:39
animals. you can do this and you can have any of your employees do it as long as they are regular employees in your
running of your operation it says without compensation this means that you cannot hire someone to specifically come in and do procedures on their animals for pay. The Veterinar Medical Practice Act is set up by you, and it's a promise to the animal owners that they can receive the highest quality animal health care.
If we allow people without licensure, you do not know their background, You may not know their capabilities. True, they may come in and perform and they may do well. But what if that person doesn't do well? What's your recourse? What is your recourse? You have no licensing board to go to to form a complaint.
And this is what the licensing board does. It hears complaints from the animal owners. for substandard veterinary care. We also have, by the Licensing or the Practice Act, we can establish penalties. At the present time, a veterinarian is subject to $5,000 penalty maximum per infraction.
And sometimes veterinarians will have four or five infractions, which can get very expensive
Speaker 97
59:43
on them if they are found at fault for not maintaining the highest level of
Landon Tate
Unverified
59:56
animal care. Another important point is that we establish minimum standards for practice. And that means each clinic must meet certain standards of cleanliness.
Hot and cold running water, and this is on page 21. Sanitary storage. It must have disposable facilities for all biohazard material. There's syringes, needles. Syringes that's had potent drugs in them. they are under law to control all of this. Surgery wards must have emergency drugs present.
They must have positive oxygen flow. They must be set up in that room to provide any emergencies that may occur. And this is very important. if you are performing procedures, especially under drugs, is to have immediate emergency care available. If you don't and you give a drug and that animal has an adverse reaction, you need
Speaker 97
1:01:09
to have someone there that can take care of these emergency procedures.
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:01:17
Now the practice of veterinary medicine. It has already been presented to you, and this is on page two. which includes diagnosis,
Speaker 111
1:01:26
treatment, correction, change, relief of animal disease, deformity, to
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:01:38
go on to name several. It includes ethereogenology, which was referred to earlier, and that involves reproduction. That's what that term is. And it very specifically outlines what the practice of veterinary medicine is.
we mentioned the word diagnosis and I would make a point that to reach a diagnosis you have to have diagnostic procedures and the hoof tester was presented but I will contend that even the hoof tester that the failure uses that's still not making a diagnosis they said He made a diagnosis of lameness.
You knew that before the horse came in. He was lame. That was an observation. That is not a diagnosis. To make a diagnosis, you're going to have to do diagnostic procedures, and that includes radiographs, possibly ultrasounds. And until you have definite proof of what's wrong, you haven't made a diagnosis. You may have made a presumptive diagnosis or a tentative, but you have not made a diagnosis. These are all just observations. that that failure has made.
In the annual report of the Veterinar Examining Board in 2010, we had 20 complaints filed by animal owners against veterinarians. these complaints ranged anything from substandard veterinary care inadequate care of animals post surgery unsanitary
conditions in clinics claims of animal abuse refusing medical records that an owner asked for and that's written in the practice act We must give those records to an owner if they ask for it. We've had drug abuse problems, veterinarians being impaired, and we've had veterinarians that did illegal dispensing.
And this gets into a very, very important point. So veterinarians, before a drug can go out of their office, they must have a veterinarian-client-patient relationship. And that means they need to know that client, and they need to know the condition of that animal or be familiar with an animal. And in the case of a herd of cattle, they don't need to know the individual animal, but as long as they know the medical background of that herd,
unless they do know that they cannot dispense drugs out of that office and when that drug leaves it is required to have a label for the owner for the animal and specific directions on that drug if that drug is found outside a veterinarian's possession without a label FDA, the Federal
Speaker 103
1:05:01
Drug Administration has specific rules against that.
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:05:09
Legend drugs will have a statement on that label by and for the use of a lasting veterinarian only. We do not want those drugs outside of the veterinary office without that label and without specific control and information about that owner, what his intentions are for it, and where that drug is going and what it's to be used for. And these are some
Speaker 97
1:05:37
of the claims that we've had this year.
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:05:41
We've had zero claims against veterinary technicians. We did have two non-licensed people brought before the board. One for a practice without a license, and this involved a boarding facility that was vaccinating dogs for pay. And one was for a fellow that had a website. He is not a veterinarian, but he did have the title DVM past his name.
And any time anyone represents themselves as a veterinarian, that is a specific rule in the practice act. They cannot represent themselves as something that they are not. Going back through our records, there has never been a complaint against a farrier. we've never had a complaint brought against us in fact visiting with past board members and the present board members the examining board would not even entertain
a complaint on a farrier as far as we're concerned they're not included in the practice of veterinary medicine as far
Speaker 97
1:06:57
as the animal husbandry practice we have no complaints on animal
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:07:06
husbandry. They have those specific exemptions as we mentioned before and as Representative Smith brought forth. As long as it's your animal you can do whatever you want medically
and there's never been any complaints there. Now how does this
Speaker 98
1:07:27
bill affect or how does HB 1055 affect the
Speaker 103
1:07:32
practice Act. I'm not going to repeat the practice of veterinary medicine in its
Landon Tate
Unverified
1:07:44
definition. You've already been presented that on page two. But under definitions, we need to keep in mind what the practice of veterinary medicine is, which is diagnosing treating diseased
animals and the procedures we have to go through in the educational
Speaker 97
1:07:56
background that we are required to have in order to do this with proficiency and provide a quality health care to these people. In the definition of animal husbandry, that's been brought forth before you. In the practice act, it does say
Speaker 103
1:08:16
routine accepted livestock management practices, and that's on page 12, B. 3 and 5.
Webster's defines it as a branch of agriculture
Speaker 97
1:08:27
concerned with the production and care of domestic animals. H. B. 55 does become more specific listing specific procedures. I do have trouble with the statement of unlimited. I'm not sure what that means. It's been explained, but I'm still We'll ensure exactly how that affects the Practice Act in the long run and the quality of health care.
Tooth floating, HB55 does pull tooth floating out from under equine dentistry. It makes it a specific entity of its own. But when you go below the gum line, that is surgery. that is more than tooth floating would you have your teeth pulled without anesthesia someone comes toward you say I'm going to pull your baby tooth
without numbing that would you sit there and wait for that and that's exactly what's happening here they're removing a tooth that is firmly anchored into the upper bone that tooth is removed and most of these teeth have at least half to three quarters of an inch root on them horses are not going to stand there is pain involved they're going to have to have drugs we have to remember how did they get those drugs
and what was the course of the flow of drug equine dentistry this bill does leave equine dentistry in the control of the veterinarian, and there's a
Speaker 111
1:10:18
point that I'll make on the last page that I need
Speaker 103
1:10:30
to explain to me, and we'll get to that. Tooth floating. The American Veterinary Dental College explains dentistry.
Equine dentistry is a practice of veterinary medicine and should not be performed by anyone other than a licensed veterinarian or a certified veterinary technician under the employ of a licensed veterinarian. Any dental activity requiring sedation, tranquilization, analgesia, or anesthesia, and procedures which are invasive of the tissue of the oral cavity included but not limited to extraction of teeth, amputation of large molar incisor and catine teeth, the extraction of first premolar
teeth or wolf teeth, and repair of damaged or diseased teeth must be performed by a veterinarian." This statement, as put out by the American Veterinary Dental College, was endorsed by the American Association
Speaker 97
1:11:28
of Equine Practitioners as being the rule that they would follow. And this is a rule that all veterinarians in the United States that are a member of
Speaker 103
1:11:40
AAEP follow. Also included that in that statement, the rasping, floating of molar, premolar, and
canine teeth and the removal of deciduous incisors and premolar teeth or caps may, provided this valid veterinary client-patient relationship exists, be performed by a certified veterinary technician under the employ of the
Speaker 97
1:12:08
veterinarian. That is the accepted procedure as set forth by the Veterinary Dental Association. Again, back to the animal husbandry.
husbandry is already exempt for the owner but without compensation we feel that the board feels that anytime this is opened up for compensation anyone anyone can do these procedures there may be people that's perfectly qualified but those that go out there that are not qualified that causes damage true They may not get the job the second time, but what happens to that animal on the first time?
That animal doesn't get the second chance if he dies. That person may not work on the second animal, but that first animal didn't make it because of substandard veterinary care. We've got to maintain the promise that you all made to the public to have quality veterinary care. If you don't, you're failing your very constituents that
Speaker 27
1:13:24
you represent. Mr. Tate, would you accept questions? Yes, sir.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:13:28
Representative Stewart. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Tate, right now the dental techs do not get a course in equine dentistry? Is that what I understood? We have one
Speaker 97
1:13:43
tech school in the state, and that's at ASU BB. And in the state here, we do not have anyone that teaches dental at ASUBB. There are other schools that teach it, but not in the state of Arkansas.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:13:58
So in your dental, in your practice then, you have no one to help you do teeth floating? You have to at all? No. For my practice? Yes.
Speaker 125
1:14:08
I still do. I still do teeth floating. But you don't have any techs to help you because there's no
Speaker 124
1:14:14
school? Well, I'm semi-retired, so I do not have
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:14:17
any techs to help me. Okay. What's a normal charge for teeth floating from a dentist? I mean, from a vet? I'm not sure.
Speaker 97
1:14:29
My charge is if it's a simple float without pulling wolf teeth and I'm doing it with other procedures, I probably won't charge over $25, $30 to do that. Okay. Okay. One
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:14:42
thing, I'm from a rural area, and one of the things I've learned in this process today is that a farmer can't hire someone to come work his cattle on his semi-annual roundup or get all your cows up and work them, do all your shots, dehorning, castrating, implanting, ear tags, those kind of things.
Have you had any citations for farmers who've hired people to do that? No. At the examining board? Yes. No. No,
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:15:18
was like to. You know, down where I live, we've got farmers
that are 75 years old now. They still raise 40, 50 head, but they hire somebody to come in there to help them do this on a regular basis. Right. They can't do it anymore. Now, the other question I have is, and you went over it on page 12, page 3, or paragraph 3 and 5,
a list of the accepted farm management practices. Right. Well, there is no list, and there's no definitions of what that is. Do you think that we do need to do that, as they have done in this bill? The practice
Speaker 97
1:15:56
act, as far as I'm concerned, the owner can do any medical procedure on his animal that he wants to do. That's my view. That may not be the view of all the board members, but it does not limit that owner as to what he can do to his own animal or what his normal employees can do.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:16:13
Does that answer your question? Yes, and the main thing is that we've not had any citations or any complaints
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
1:16:31
about people doing that. Okay, thank you. Representative Linderman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tate, on page 12, item 5, this alludes to what my colleague asked.
What is the board's stance on day labor? If a farmer hires somebody to work for a day to come and work on his farm, and he does perform castration, dehorning, vaccinations, what is the board's position on that?
Speaker 97
1:17:01
That's what representative was. If that person represents himself as a veterinarian doing veterinary procedures, that is for pay, that is against the rules of the Practice Act.
If he goes and works for this owner, what I call shoot work, he may be given vaccinations and all, but his hip and that owner push those cattle up through the crowding alley, that is not the practicing of medicine. Now, he may be given vaccinations. He may be ear notching or whatever. But as far as I'm concerned, that is not, he can help that owner.
But if they contract, as contract labor, to go out and do the full thing, that's a practice of veterinary medicine. But you have not had anyone,
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
1:17:57
quote, citations or anything, charged anyone on that in Arkansas? I'm not aware of any, no. Okay, thank you. Thank
Speaker 128
1:18:07
you, Mr. Chairman. Seeing no other questions. This is
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:18:14
represented to Collins. running しμ gut anni and doctor tate thank you very much for coming
your uh... you're clearly in experts expert
and i have two questions the first one is do you see anything and h b!10.55 overly dangerous in or medication or
drugs each and anyway No, but it
Speaker 97
1:18:36
sets up a lot of open doors for medicine to get into
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:18:43
the wrong hands. Okay, thank you. And my second question is, in Section 2, HB 1055 lists out, and as I count them, 15 specific husbandry acts that this bill would authorize to be performed for compensation.
Which, if any, of those 15 would you and the folks you represent be comfortable with
Speaker 130
1:19:07
this act allowing to be performed with compensation? With compensation?
Speaker 97
1:19:13
We are against compensation on any of those. Well, let me just
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:19:20
outside of the... H, for example, says farriery and hoof care. That's one of the 15. So farrier, we
Speaker 97
1:19:28
don't even consider farrier as being in the practice act.
So in that instance, yes, they do that for compensation. Is there anything else in
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:19:37
the 15 that you would put in the camp of farrier or nothing else in the 15? Let me get that. I didn't. What page
Speaker 134
1:19:45
was it? Page two. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Failure training,
Speaker 97
1:20:00
I don't know why training is in here.
In the Model Practice Act, the only time training even becomes a question is if drugs are used in the training of the animal. We have, you know, I can say in Arkansas, I'm not sure why the word training is in there. We do not regulate horse training whatsoever. That's not a veterinary procedure. So
Speaker 121
1:20:24
that could be for pay. Is that what you're asking?
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:20:30
Yes, sir. So that's two, farrier and training. Is there anything else?
Speaker 97
1:20:36
On O, I'm not sure what we're referring to there on the nutrition part. The Veterinary Examining Board does not regulate nutrition in any way that I know of. So that's, as far as I'm concerned, that's a non-entity also. The
Speaker 107
1:21:14
No, the rest would be against for pay if it's outside
Speaker 124
1:21:18
of the owner control. Thank you, sir, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. Any
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:21:26
other questions? If not, Mr. Tate, thank you very much for coming. Let's move right along. I want to thank the committee. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Everybody's watching the clock, and we've heard two people. So please, if you do not have something that's very pertinent for this committee to hear,
please pass and allow someone that might have some worthwhile information to speak. Next on the list for against is Michael Steenbergen. Is that correct? I mean, for the bill. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My mistake. Hi.
Speaker 138
1:22:01
Thanks for listening to me, and it's
Speaker 140
1:22:08
a joy to be here today before you. My name is Michael L. Steenbergen, and I'm the past president of the Arkansas Horse Council
and also the past president of the Ozark Caribbean Horse Club. I am for this bill because I would like to see a broader scope of care brought to large animals in this state. I don't believe there's enough caregivers as it is. And I would like to see these people empowered to do their skills. I would also like to see certifications and things like that, like I know John has one. He, in 1992, he pulled some wolf teeth from an Arab stallion that I had.
And I'll attest to the fact that he did use a veterinarian and used sedation. And I'd like to see a more cooperative agreement with veterinarians and lay people to help each other and have a referral service, and so we can all work together. I'm on the board for the Arkansas Green Industry Association, and we have agreement where we We work with the University of Arkansas, Arkansas State Plant Board.
We have certifications and all those things, which I see would be applicable in a situation like this. So we invite people to come to our conferences and teach from the University Cooperative Extension Service and things like that, and it works out really well. It's a great relationship. So that's about all I have to say. I'm keeping it brief. I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to tell you. I am an experienced horse person, and I don't come in as blind.
I've actually went out and talked to some veterinarians and talked to several lay people so that I've had both sides of the spectrum, and I'm pretty knowledgeable of the subject. So any questions? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, sir. I appreciate you being
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:24:07
here. Any questions? Thank you for coming. Thank
you. And thank you for being brief. Against the bill, Mr. David Blunt.
Speaker 142
1:24:29
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm David Blunt. I'm a veterinarian from Fort Smith. I'm the past president of the Arkansas Veterinary Medical
Speaker 143
1:24:36
Association, and I'm the legislative chairman for the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association this year. As a spokesman for the association, I do appreciate the opportunity to address the committee, and on behalf of the association, I want to voice our strong opposition to this bill. Dr. Tate's testimony very accurately states the reasons for our opposition to the bill, and I don't intend to sit here and repeat the very important points she's already made.
What I do want to share with the committee is the action that the Veterinary Association is pursuing to address the important issues of large animal care and welfare in the state of Arkansas. The Veterinary Medical Practice Act provides a safeguard for the public against substandard veterinary care. It's there to protect animal welfare. It's the law set by the legislature to protect the public from substandard veterinary care. Now, these are the guidelines and standards by which all veterinarians must adhere to every day, and any changes to the Practice Act must be done with very thorough study
to maintain the standard of proper animal care. This bill will allow virtually unregulated work on animals, allow people that aren't certified and will just allow unregulated medical care on animals. The Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association is addressing the issue of large animal medicine and care. At this time, we're having legislation drafted requesting an in-depth interim study to examine
We will examine the Arkansas Veterinary Medical Practice Act concerning large animal medicine. This interim study proposal is being sponsored by Representatives Tom Uren and Jeremy Gillam. It will address the various issues in large animal welfare and the needs of the large animal owner. We desire to bring to the table those groups and individuals who can provide the best ideas in solving these issues such as Farm Bureau, University of Arkansas Ag Department, Cattlemen's Association, public health officials, and large animal veterinary specialists who can offer sound guidance on the provisions of animal medical care.
The study will examine the large animal veterinarian shortage, the need for large animal technician services, large animal health care exemptions, and the impact that exemptions and lay health care providers have on animal health care. The main goal here is providing the highest quality of animal health care in Arkansas. That is our main concern in this study. The Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association again strongly urges you to vote against this bill. These issues need the more in-depth study our interim study will provide.
Any questions? Any questions by committee? Yes, sir. Thank you, Chairman.
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
1:27:22
I think I heard you say something in there about is there a shortage of large animal vets? Yes, sir. Okay. It's perceived at least. We're still trying
Speaker 143
1:27:30
to figure that out, whether it's actually a perceived shortage versus an actual shortage. And that's what the study is to address? That's one of the issues, yes, sir. Do you think it's, if there is
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
1:27:38
a shortage or at least a perceived shortage,
do you think that our recent economics may be driving some folks who previously had money to care for their large animals through
veterinarians may be looking for cheaper services, or do you think it's any sort of,
Speaker 143
1:27:59
you don't see anything there? Oh, no, I'm not shaking my head. No, it could certainly be a factor in it. And that's what the purpose of the interim study would be, is bringing the people in who can study exactly why we have a shortage, how do we correct it, just like Representative Smith's talking about the 2-plus-2 program he's interested in, trying to find ways to provide qualified large animal technicians.
This is not something we're planning on doing in a two-hour interim study session either. I mean, we're talking about whatever however many meetings it takes over the next couple of years, trying to get this all lined out and have something very solid to come back and approach the 2013 legislative session with. Yes, sir. Dr.
Speaker 138
1:28:46
Blunt, thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:28:51
Let's go over to the fours. Scott Mashburn.
Speaker 154
1:29:00
Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
Scott Mashburn
Unverified
1:29:22
I really appreciate it that I can come down here and be educated about the legislative process and all that's going through it and for meeting with my representatives on a personal
basis. Thank you. My name is Scott Mashburn. I've been a horseshoer since 1999. I'm also the equine chairman for the Washington County Farm Bureau. Our Farm Bureau is 100% unanimous in support of the House Bill 1055.
I support this bill for three reasons. My first point is the Arkansas Veterinary Practice Act is written very broadly. I'd like to see some definition, some clarification in the law. I want to be free to work without worrying about the Veterinary Board interpretations of the law. I believe that this law should reflect that horse shearers
Scott Mashburn
Unverified
1:30:39
my second reason i support this bill is i want to be free to be paid for my services where we were talking about providing services for pay and not have to worry about being in violation of the veterinary practice act and number three i believe my customers want me to work for them in their best interest and the best interest of their horses and I'd like them to have
a choice to choose me and that I'm legal and can provide those services and allow them the choice to have those services and in conclusion I'd like to ask y'all to vote for House Bill 1055 Thank you very much.
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:31:40
Thank you, Mr. Mashburn. Any questions? No.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:31:47
Representative Stewart. Yes, I have a question. You said the, I want
to clarify your statement, you said the Farm Bureau was behind this. Are you saying
Scott Mashburn
Unverified
1:31:59
Farm Bureau? Yes, I'll add clarification to that. It's to clarify it and answer your question directly. Washington County Farm Bureau, not
Speaker 154
1:32:08
the state organization, but the county organization, met, and we were in support of this. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 161
1:32:18
I'm sorry. Representative Benedict, did you have a brief comment? Yes,
Representative Lori Benedict
Unverified
1:32:24
I have a brief comment. We raise cattle. We have about 500 mama cows and always have 10 or 15 horses around the farm at the same time. I live in Fulton County. We have one veterinarian in the county. He works at a sale barn every different day of the week. He's at a different sale barn. You have to make appointments with him weeks ahead of time to get him for one day out there. If we had to wait for a veterinarian to come every time we needed to use any of these services,
my animals would be neglected rather than taken care of. You would be causing my animals to not get the care they need, and believe me, we care about our animals. I don't call anybody out to do these jobs that I'm not really comfortable with, but to have more regulation on this would prevent the animals from getting the
Speaker 163
1:33:13
care they needed instead of getting the care that you are desiring to give them. Thank you very
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:33:19
much. Next, we'll speak against the bill.
Paul Turchi, am I pronouncing that right? Thank
Speaker 164
1:33:34
you. Mr. Chairman and committee members, thank you for this opportunity. My name is Paul Turchi. I am a practicing veterinarian of 23 years in Fayetteville,
Speaker 165
1:33:42
Arkansas, and my practice is limited to horses. And I'm just going to testify and give a little bit of brief history about my 20 years of practice and what I've experienced. I have a relationship with both John Brochu, who's testified, and Jim House.
Actually, John Brochu worked under me in the past for about a 12-month period of time. Now, I okayed this with the examining board. I called Sherry Glover, who was the secretary of the examining board at the time, and questioned, was that legal? She said, as long as he is an employee of mine, I'm compensating him for the services he does, and I'm supervising him, that that was legal. So he worked for me over a period of about 12 months, in which time he did routine veterinary procedures on approximately between 80 and 100 head of horses, according to my records.
I will say that on all of those routine procedures, the horses that were worked on were sedated, and I did perform that sedation. And for that reason, I don't buy into this assumption that tooth bloaters can practice without sedation. I know that's some of the arguments that are made, is that tooth floaters, some of them can practice without sedation. I just don't think you can do an adequate job without sedation. So that's one of my points. Over the past six to eight years, I have had non-veterinarians come to me and discuss the possibility of going to an equine dental school and learning to float teeth.
My response to them is that in the state of Arkansas, you must work with a veterinarian to perform equine teeth floating procedures. Thus, my advice is to first arrange a working relationship with a veterinarian prior to attending these courses and making that investment. At the same time, I have seen several of these individuals, after completion of these courses, return and solicit to purchase sedatives from me to perform procedures on those horses without my supervision.
So, therefore, I can see the creation of a problem if these people aren't supervised. Another concern is the lack of oversight that the changes in this bill would create among non-veterinary practitioners, not just tooth floaters. In my region of the state, we have been confronted with equine tooth floaters who have no formal training, and John Brochu can testify to this. As a result, I have personally diagnosed oral cavity injuries and fractured molars, which resulted from dental procedures performed by non-veterinary tooth floaters using improper equipment and no sedation.
These cases were not referred to me by tooth floaters, but were presented by owners who recognized problems after the dental work was done. Thus, my conclusion is they either did not recognize and diagnose the lesions they had created, or they ignored them. I know John Brochu, and I know I'm fairly positive that John Brochu does not want to be placed in the same category of these unregulated, untrained tooth floaters that are currently out there. The non-veterinary practitioners should be regulated and supervised to ensure that they have an adequate level of training and are held accountable for their actions.
In the state of Arkansas, you have to have a license to cut hair, but if this bill is passed, you can float teeth or pregnancy check cattle without a license and without any proof of credentials. So for that reason, I oppose the bill. I think it creates a new class of unregulated, unsupervised practitioners and does nothing to protect the public from substandard care or ensure animal welfare. My main question to you would be, who is going to regulate these practitioners?
Will veterinarians, the question that was asked before, will veterinarians be held to the same, will these practitioners be held to the same standard as veterinarians, which I don't know how they can be since one group's licensed and the other's not, and will these These changes to the Practice Act lead to an increase in illegal prescription drug use by non-veterinarians. Those are questions I think that we need to ask ourselves before we
Speaker 128
1:37:50
pursue this bill. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Turchie. Oh, I'm sorry.
I didn't. Yeah, we have one
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:38:02
question. Thank you, sir. In the bill, in Section 2, there's a list of 15 procedures, branding, castration, dehorning. Are there any of those procedures that you
Speaker 165
1:38:17
would feel comfortable allowing people to practice for compensation? And these are unsupervised individuals, uncertified, unsupervised individuals? Yes, sir. Forecoms, branding, possibly, that's branding, maybe ear notching, farrier care, obviously,
training, and the nutritional aspect of it, I don't see a problem with those, because I don't think they're invasive. Thank you,
Speaker 130
1:38:41
sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Tershing. Next on
Speaker 33
1:38:45
the list, Mr. Tom Allen. hello can you hear me all right yes
Speaker 172
1:39:05
sir thank you for allowing me to testify or make a statement
or whatever i'm doing here in support of house bills 1055 my qualifications i've been a veterinarian for 38 years i first saw decent equine dentistry after i had been in practice for 23 years a a non-veterinary outlaw, tooth floater, called me and asked me to come sedate some horses so he could do some dentistry. On that day, which was a life-changing day for me, I saw what horses have in their mouths that shortens their lives.
A few years after that, I started doing more and more dentistry because I first realized at that point in time, after only 23 years of practice, how important their teeth are, what kind of changes go on there that need to be interfered with, need to be managed to help them live longer. Started doing more and more dentistry. Had a near-fatal heart attack in 98. Realized how big our guarantees are. Started figuring, I'm going to do what I like to do for the rest of my life. Ever since then, I have done only equine dentistry. My wife and I put together a book called Manual of Equine Dentistry.
We've sold a couple thousand copies until we became micro-publishers. And I think maybe there was a little bit of politics in there so that we had to become micro-publishers because the company that was publishing it published a lot of veterinary textbooks, and they didn't want to publish it anymore. Because in the introduction of the book, I thanked the non-veterinary equine dental practitioners who taught me equine dentistry. I was on the American Association of Equine Veterinary Practitioners, Equine Dental and Dental Education Committee, as it was called then, for three years.
What I learned there is that veterinarians, in my opinion, are more interested in the well-being of the veterinary pocketbook than the well-being of the horse as they are supposed to be. When we consider how many qualifications are looked at for a veterinarian for showing proficiency to become licensed in any state in the union in equine dentistry, zip. They are not required to show any proficiency in equine dentistry to become licensed in any state.
And it's not rocket science, or as one guy said, it's not rocket science or brain surgery, but still, if you've looked in a bunch of mouths, you can do a better job of taking care of that horse's mouth than you can just because you happen to have studied guinea pig histology, poultry science, and all of the other things we have to go through in veterinary medicine, or vet tech school, where they don't teach equine dentistry. They're starting to, in the vet schools now, now that the non-veterinary equine dental outlaws have showed them how to do good equine dentistry, now some veterinary schools are
starting to introduce them, which is good, and eventually it will be better. But until that time, for the well-being of the horse, we need to allow as many people as can do a good job in equine dentistry to be allowed to work on those horses' teeth. The customers regulate the practice. How do they do that? Well, they don't call it to the board, and the board says, well, it's okay, you did this and that. They call their neighbor and everybody else they know that has horses and says, don't call this guy.
He's messed up my horse big time. Or this guy really helped my horse, this girl helped my horse a lot. The vast majority of the veterinarians, of my veterinary colleagues, whom I love dearly, lack the tools, the training, or the expertise, or the experience to do decent equine dentistry. I know maybe 100 of them now, and that's a big change. All I do now is equine dentistry, as I've said. And over the last two or three years, I've actually started to see, I do about 1,500 horses a year.
I've seen horses that actually you could tell they had some dentistry. Now, very, very rarely was that horse done by a veterinarian, almost always. Very rarely was it done by a veterinarian, because veterinarians, with their new introduction to these easy-to-use power dentistry equipments take way too much tooth. But that's just my opinion, and all I do is look at horses' teeth all day.
Someone mentioned why this issue is growing so rapidly right now. The reason it's growing so rapidly right now is because until the last few years, veterinarians didn't know about it. About 20 years ago, a guy in Nebraska started doing some decoy dentistry because he could not find veterinarians qualified or capable to do it or willing to do it, and the vets there took him all the way to the Supreme Court because he had the audacity to be helping horses live longer without being a veterinarian.
I am licensed in the state of Arkansas. I live in the state of Missouri, 300 miles north of here. I come to Missouri, to Arkansas, to practice at the invitation of several veterinarians who don't really care that much about doing equine dentistry, but they're very good at other things they do. They just don't care to do the kind of things that I do all day long. I think a better question, actually, about really a very, oh, one thing I need to mention
is that this proposed bill isn't talking about changing the way that sedation is regulated. If there's a problem with sedation regulation, guess who needs more supervision? The veterinarians. If drugs are showing up in the hands of people it shouldn't be showing up in the hands of, let's go to the source. Talking about who picks the practitioner?
When you look at the very valuable, I mean, $500,000 stud fee, for example, horses for Stormcat, and those ranch farms like that in Kentucky or wherever they are and all over the country, and these valuable racetrack horses, do you think a veterinarian's ever allowed to do their teeth? Ha ha, guess again. I guarantee you they're not going to let a veterinarian near that horse with a hand float or a power instrument. They want somebody who looks in the horse's mouth, knows what to do about it, and does it. and usually doesn't require sedation.
And whoever said something about needing sedation, come talk to me. My website is horsedentist.com. I'll be glad to show you several people who can even take out an almost gone, dead loose rotten tooth and do very good equine dentistry with zero sedation. That's all I've got. Thank you, sir. To speak against the
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:45:54
bill, I'm going to call on Rodney Baker. Mr. Chairman?
Speaker 182
1:46:13
You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm Rodney Baker. I'm Director of Governmental Affairs for the Arkansas Farm Bureau, and I appreciate this opportunity. I've had several questions over the last couple of days about Farm Bureau's position on this issue, and I'd like to clarify some of that. But before we go there, I'd like to commend the sponsor, Mr. Smith, and also Mr. House, on bringing this issue up. This is not, as you can tell, an issue that lacks opinion or lacks emotion. It's one of those things that's difficult to deal with, and I commend you for that.
It is something that we have tried to look at in our policy processes. And for those of you that are not as familiar with the Farm Bureau, perhaps, as some others, We're a grassroots organization, and we have a democratic process, and our policy is what we bring to the Capitol, and it is voted on by delegates from every county in the state, representing every county Farm Bureau in the state, and that is the policy for the organization. And I would like to read that policy to you,
and I will tell you that we are opposed to the bill as it's presented. Our policy says that we recognize the importance of animal health and welfare in our state and in states bordering Arkansas. We support the current Veterinary Medical Practices Act. We also support adoption of science-based animal husbandry practices and research that promote the highest quality of health care and welfare for our animal population. In the interest of fairness, and it's already been mentioned here in the interest of full disclosure,
I will tell you that this is the policy of the state organization. Now, we're made up of 76 county farm bureaus in their autonomous organizations, and they have the right to have opinion that's different from the state to dissent from that policy. And it's already been mentioned, I think Scott mentioned that here a few minutes ago. So I know now that at least one, and I knew coming in here today, that at least one county is in that position. There may be another one or two that I don't know about, but if you run into that, that's what it is.
So I've been asked. People have said, I hear Farm Bureau's for it, and I hear Farm Bureau's against it. That's our situation, and I apologize if that's a little confusing, but people in our organization take their policy very seriously, and they've worked hard at this. I would like to share at this time a couple of other policies, because I think they're pertinent to this. First, we support the evaluation of other incentives and assistance initiatives, including but not limited to the expanded veterinary technician program and practice establishment grants.
We support the veterinary medical technician program at Arkansas State University at Beebe and its funding for continued establishment of veterinary medical technicians for large animals. it's important that you understand that in arkansas we do have a shortage of large animal vets maybe not in your county maybe not in areas like northwest arkansas and there are a lot of vets in the state many of them either aren't practicing or they're practicing for maybe a poultry company or something where they're specialized we have counties in the states that do not have a
practicing veterinarian so underlying all of this is a concern among our members and a debate that's been going on for some time about what do we do to get more large animal vets, additional slots in vet schools, scholarships dedicated to that. We've even had a policy that wants to look at the lottery scholarship money to see if that could be somehow used to fund a veterinary spot for a large animal practitioner. When you look at the policies I've just read you, I think it's pretty clear two things.
We want and need care for our animals, but we also want quality care. There's been a lot of confidence in the veterinary practices program represented by our opposition to the bill. There's also a concern here about the future and whether or not we're going to have quality and available services available to us. At this point, our members have discussed this. We voted on our policy in early December, and this was the combined judgment of the delegates at our convention.
So that's where we are in our policy, and that's why we're behind it, what we are. I do point out to you that the lack of large animal practitioners is a concern. I think it underlies much of what you're seeing here today. But also in our policy, if you read it and think about it, we're concerned about quality care also and not just availability, but available and quality. So with that, Mr. Chairman, that is the position of the Farm Bureau. And if there's a question, I'll be glad to try to answer it. Thank you, sir.
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
1:51:05
Representative Collins. Thank you for coming, Mr. Baker. In section 2, item number 6, the bill lists 15 different husbandry practices. Are there any of them that you and or the Farm Bureau is comfortable allowing people to perform for
Speaker 17
1:51:20
money? I thought I might get that question. Mr. Collins, in all honesty, I don't know
Speaker 182
1:51:26
that I'm not a veterinarian, so I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that, even though I do have a degree in animal science many years ago.
And as far as breaking this down point by point, that was not part of the policy decision that our organization made. Recall that this started out to be a horse tooth-floating bill. That's kind of hard to say sometimes. A tooth-floating bill. Then we got into discussion about ferriers. And then we got into discussion about other things. And we're now up to acupuncture. And so that really, point by point, was not something our delegates gave me guidance on. thank you thank you mr chairman no other
Speaker 29
1:52:07
questions rodney baker thank you so much for coming
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:52:11
thank you mr chairman that's good members of the committee it's 12 o'clock what is the pleasure of the committee at this point we as way i see it we have two options if you want to continue this at a later date we can if you've heard enough testimony and i do want to do uh say how sorry I am for the people that signed up to have their testimony and didn't get a chance to, but if the committee has heard what they think is enough information, if you're ready to
vote, I need to hear what your pleasure is at
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
1:52:47
this point. Representative Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it would be, if you're of the same opinion, appropriate to allow the members of the audience that did not get to testify an option to vote by raising hand of their opinion to be for or against this bill. Do you think that would be a good measure, or am I out of line? Representative, let me tell you this,
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:53:05
that I've got a list of all the people, and it's equal. Okay. It's the same number for and against. I don't see any point of them expressing it by raising their hands.
All right. Thank you. I need some guidance from the committee. I call for a question. We're ready for the question. All in agreement? All in favor of House Bill 1055, signify by saying aye. Aye. opposed like saying I'm gonna call for a roll call do I hear a second madam clerk call the roll
Unknown speaker
1:54:01
Representative Ratliff Representative Shepard Representative Link Representative Collins Representative Love Yes. Representative Jean?
Speaker 193
1:54:32
No. Representative Leading? Yes. Representative Meeks? No. Representative Meeks? No. I don't think so. I don't think so. Representative Linderman, did I call for you?
Speaker 206
1:55:04
No, ma'am. You have not. My vote is no. Okay. John Edwards. Representative McCrairie. Yes. representative Dale representative Dale representative Perry representative
lindsey representative smith representative stewart representative patterson representative more Representative Burris No Representative Brown
Representative John Burris
Unverified
1:56:18
No Madam Clerk Madam Clerk Would you please call Representative Dale's name again please Representative Dale i'm
Speaker 29
1:56:46
sorry revenue smith you have failed your bill thank you mr chairman thank you committee
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
1:56:51
thank you audience for your attention thank everyone's attention thank you for coming thank you for being so patient i will tell you members of the committee that after we voted live streamed. We were live streamed today. You were part of the first
committee that was ever live streamed. I think you conducted yourself very well.
Agenda
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Documents
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Speakers
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
Speaker 2
Speaker 4
Speaker 5
Speaker 10
Speaker 16
Speaker 23
Representative Jerry R. Brown
Unverified
Speaker 29
Speaker 32
Speaker 33
Speaker 37
Speaker 39
Speaker 41
Representative Homer Lenderman
Unverified
Speaker 17
Speaker 48
Representative Stephen Meeks
Unverified
Speaker 6
Speaker 57
Speaker 63
Representative Charlie Collins
Unverified
Speaker 70
Speaker 40
Speaker 76
Speaker 82
Speaker 89
Representative John Burris
Unverified
Speaker 92
Landon Tate
Unverified
Speaker 97
Speaker 103
Speaker 95
Speaker 111
Speaker 98
Speaker 27
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
Speaker 125
Speaker 124
Speaker 128
Speaker 130
Speaker 134
Speaker 121
Speaker 120
Speaker 107
Speaker 138
Speaker 140
Speaker 142
Speaker 143
Representative Kelley Linck
Unverified
Speaker 154
Scott Mashburn
Unverified
Speaker 116
Speaker 139
Speaker 161
Representative Lori Benedict
Unverified
Speaker 163
Speaker 164
Speaker 165
Speaker 172
Speaker 182
Speaker 193
Speaker 206