House Education Committee
Video
Transcript
Bills discussed (3)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
|---|---|---|---|
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HB1276
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1276”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1370
· 2 mentions in transcript
Matched: “…state agencies, interestingly enough, we passed out a bill, House Bill 1370.”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1366
· 1 mention in chapter
Matched: “HB1366”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
0:00
Good morning. It's good to be here. It's good to see a full house. First thing I'd like to do is, of course, you found your picture. You should find an invitation on your desk. Arkansas Legislative Leadership AASCD. Breakfast in the cafeteria in the Capitol basement. That is February 24th, 7 to 9. So they'd appreciate your attendance there.
Also, we have with us today, we may have more than one guest, but we have Krista Cohn. Krista, would you stand wherever you are? Hi. Oh, you're already standing. Krista is with the Special Projects Leader, Bentonville, Bella Vista, Chamber of
Speaker 4
0:47
Commerce, and she has a leadership group with her. Would you
Speaker 6
0:56
each stand, please, as a group? Thank you. Thank you, thank you, Kristen.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:22
We actually have a couple of bills on the agenda today, which is a good thing, I think. First bill you look at, and you'll find a copy on the table there in front of you, House Bill 1276 by Representative Viviano, and he's lucky he's ready to go, and he has some people with him. Mr. Viviano, would you recognize yourself for the record, and then your guest also. Let them do the same. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, members.
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
1:53
To my right is Craig Russell from Harding University, and to his right is Curtis Johnson from Arkansas Baptist and they will be co-presenters today of Bill 1276. Thank you. You may proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Bill 1276 just simply states that a private university or college will be allowed to form a law enforcement agency. This current right already exists at our state universities, and this just allows private universities and colleges to do the
same thing. It allows them to create an enforcement agency with certified police officers, those police officers that have gone through the Arkansas Law Enforcement Academy. It has no fiscal impact. They will pay for all training. They pay for the salaries of the officers, so they're not on any state payroll. It kind of saddens me to have to be able to run this bill, to be honest with you today, because it's a bill of necessity.
It's a necessity because of our society today. Unfortunately, on our college campuses, we're dealing with murders, rapists, drug dealers, assaults, attack against property, arson. All of these things we've seen played out in the national headlines. And it's unconscionable to think that we're not offering first-line police protection to our students, to our children.
I have two children that attend the Harding campus. I want to ensure that they are protected every day. They need the police protection that this bill will allow. So I ask you to vote favorably on it, and now I'd like to turn it over to Craig Russell, who has some comments. Mr. Gruff, are
Speaker 17
3:53
you recognized? Mr. Chairman and esteemed members of this committee, thank you for allowing us to speak
before you today. I'm Craig Russell. I'm the director of the Public Safety Department at Harding, which currently is a security department. We actually have no more power, no more authority than any other private citizen in the state of Arkansas. we are charged with the safety and the protection of about 7,000 students and about 1,000 other employees. And we actually have an academy that goes from preschool all the way through 12th grade, and we have a retirement center on our campus. We're a little bit unique.
So we have from three-year-olds to about 100 years old on our campus that we're protecting. Our community altogether numbers somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,800 to 9,000. So So you're talking about really, in essence, a medium-sized city within a city. That's what we're looking at. And I would like to sit before you today and say that Harding University never experiences any of the things that you see in other cities, the crimes that you see.
But unfortunately, that's not true at Harding, just like it's not true at any university that you would go to. We have theft. We have burglary. We have had students that have been assaulted. I can give you very specific examples just within the last few years of drug dealers on our campus, of people with criminal records that show up on our campus with weapons. And we have the tools of common citizens, of everyday ordinary citizens.
Those are the only really tools that are afforded to us. The training that we receive, we have to get ourselves. You do not have access to the Arkansas Law Enforcement Training Academy. So we do our very best to protect our students, but we feel very strongly that we need the option to be able to offer the same protections to our students and to our community that you would see on other campuses, other public university campuses right here in the state of Arkansas and other private university campuses in surrounding states like Texas and Oklahoma
and Tennessee and campuses all across the country, both private and public, fully recognize that to deal with the types of problems that campuses deal with modern day, that the police option is one of the very best options to be able to provide the type of safety that we would
Speaker 18
6:24
like to provide for our communities. I will turn it over to Mr. Johnson
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6:32
now. Mr. Chairman and committee members, I bring you greetings from Arkansas Baptist College where Dr. Fittil is the president of my institution.
It's no secret. I'm six blocks away from the state capitol. And in 2006 when we took over the institution, Arkansas Baptist College was in turmoil. Actually the doors are real close to being closed during that time frame. The neighborhood that engulfs and I say engulfs our college campus has been one that's been riddled with crime for decades. just a couple of days or a couple of years but decades. Upon our arrival, we've had to deal with everything from shootings to prostitution. We've basically broken up four drug houses
within close proximity to the college campus. I've got two that's operating right out the back door of my gymnasium on 18th and Marshall. Feel free, anyone, when you leave here to drive through the area around Arkansas Baptist College, and you can see the things that we're basically talking about. The city of Little Rock has been a tremendous partner in trying to assist us in basically cleaning up the neighborhood, but it's only so much that they can do with the manpower and the resources that they have. So we're just simply asking
one simple thing. Federal law is basically pushing us from the Clery Act standpoint. State of Arkansas has done a safe campus survey over the last year and a half to assess some of the things that are recommended for college campuses to basically be safer environments for our kids to have that opportunity of inclusion to learn and to prosper. The problem for us is private colleges and universities, we don't have a level playing field where the state institutions have access to resources.
We're committed between ourselves and Harding University and Arkansas Baptist College, Philander Smith College, Children's Hospital, Shorter College. We're having to depend on each other to find adequate training sources and resources for us to basically be of service to our campus and to our students. We're not simply here saying that we really, really just want to jump out and say we want to go save the world. We really just want to be of good service to our students and to our parents. That's our reason for being here. Thank you, gentlemen.
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
8:46
Mark, you have another comment? Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. out the things that Mr. Russell and
Mr. Johnson spoke about as reality. We see it played out in the newspaper every day. But also in no way does this bill supersede the police jurisdiction or powers of the local police force. Their primary jurisdiction is on the campus and the property. They need to protect their students. Opposition will tell you that the local police force should take care of this, but as you
know with times where there's budget cuts and constraints and shortage of staff, that's not a reality. And as we've heard, many times the population of these campuses are actually greater than the city itself. So one of the benefits, first of all, we have an endorsement of the police forces. We have an endorsement of the Sheriff's Association. We have spent time with the Attorney General, and they've advised the universities of what potential liabilities and risk that are associated with this enforcement agency.
I commend both of these and all the other private agencies or universities here in Arkansas willing to take up that liability and that risk. And they're doing it in the name of protection of the students. And hopefully this committee will see that. Thank you. Thank you.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
10:09
Okay. Mr. McLean, you have a question, I believe. Representative McLean.
Speaker 28
10:16
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Bibiano, you had me at hello pretty much on this bill.
This appears to me to be, you've got a lot of law enforcement input on this. I appreciate it. I just need some clarification on, I believe it's page six of the bill, and that would be line five, where it says, in the conduction of official business engaging in intelligence gathering activity relating to security on the property of the private college or university employing him or her. Could you just further define what intelligence gathering means?
Speaker 17
10:54
I'll let Mr. Russell address that. Yes, I can address that. Actually, the language in this bill was borrowed almost verbatim from the authorizing language that allows for police departments on public university campuses. MR.
Speaker 28
11:09
That's kind of what I assumed, but I just wanted a further clarification of that, and you've answered my question. So thank you very much. MR. Thank you,
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
11:19
Mr. Chairman. MR. Thank you. Next question. Vice Chair Roebuck, I believe, has a question. MS.
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
11:25
Thank you. More of a clarification. On page one of your bill, when
Chair
Unverified
11:30
you talk about the law enforcement officer would be permitted to attend the Law Enforcement Training Academy for Training and Instruction, and then you go on on page two and assure us that you would be paying for the necessary transportation costs, traveling, and also reimbursing. Yesterday in state agencies, interestingly enough, we passed out a bill, House Bill 1370.
Have you read that bill, sir? No, I haven't. Okay. In that bill, it does say that the law enforcement training academy would be able to conduct training and provide services for any law enforcement for public safety purpose and goes on to say that they would accept private entities. So, proud to say, I guess we're working together. House Bill 1370 and House Bill 1276 are companions, and so I certainly am glad to see that,
because I've looked at both bills, and I don't see anything that contradicts. So, yesterday, that bill came out, so I assume
Speaker 36
12:42
you'll be supporting that bill, sir? You can
Speaker 38
12:49
much. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Committee, Representative Steele, you have a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Quick one, as I kind of read through the bill. Will the law enforcement officers, I think it's Mr. Russell, I guess, law enforcement officers be able to detain people on campus,
students or non-students on campus, by means of handcuffs or their place, that they would be
Speaker 41
13:13
detained if you can detain them? Well, the law enforcement officers, if
Speaker 17
13:19
this bill was passed, would have the same authority and power to arrest detention as any other law enforcement officer. So the answer is yes, if the circumstances warranted it and a legal arrest was warranted in that particular situation.
As far as facilities go, if there was arrest, it would be very similar to our own city police making an arrest. they would transport to the county detention facility, which is right there in the city of Searcy as well. Can they give tickets? Could we give? You give
Speaker 42
13:50
parking tickets now, but could you do speeding tickets? We could do moving violations, and, again, that's an
Speaker 17
13:56
important component because one of the most important ways that we could keep campus safe on an everyday basis is to make sure that our 18-, 19-, 20-year-olds that are driving on campus are obeying the traffic laws.
Speaker 18
14:10
So, yes, sir, we could write moving violations.
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14:13
And how is this different from public institutions? Do they have law enforcement agencies?
Speaker 17
14:18
For all four-year universities in the state of Arkansas have a law enforcement agency on their campus, yes, sir. There are some even smaller junior colleges that would have those law enforcement agencies. Well, it's good, and
Speaker 42
14:33
I'm glad you're doing it. I'm tired of seeing things on TV and saying I wish somebody would have done something about that.
So at least hopefully this will help.
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
14:45
Thank you, sir. If I could further comment, Mr. Chairman. Sure. I think it's fair to say that, you know, our criminal element out there is pretty smart. And unfortunately, they've targeted private universities because they know that they do not have the police powers associated with other universities and the cities. And so they have become targets. And so we have to do something to stop this. Okay.
Speaker 32
15:14
Next, I believe we have Representative Hutchinson.
Speaker 49
15:19
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have three questions. They're just very short. I gather these
Speaker 50
15:25
officers will have weapons and the regular enforcement utensils that are used. And number two, will you still have to abide by Miranda rights, just as any other law enforcement officer? And do you have jurisdiction outside the property of the university? If you had to chase someone out there or if one of your officers happened to be outside the property of the university.
Speaker 17
15:53
So those are the three questions. Okay. I'll take those in the order
Speaker 18
16:01
that you ask them or at least try to. First of all, and
Speaker 17
16:07
I may get the order mixed up here, first of all, we would carry a firearm. Matter of fact, on several campuses, we already carry firearms as armed security, and we have to have commissioned officers through the state that meet state regulations for a commissioned security officer.
Harding University already has that in place. But we do not have arrest powers. We have the same ordinary powers as a private citizen would have. So, yes, we would have the normal tools of the trade, so to speak. I believe your second question would be would we make Miranda rights. Yes, ma'am. Just like any other law enforcement officer, we would have the obligation to meet constitutional duties
and to be able to meet what the state of Arkansas requires and the U.S. Constitution requires. So, yes, Miranda rights would certainly be included among those. And then I believe finally you ask if we would go off campus. Really, the only way that we would go off campus would be very similar circumstances to, say, a police officer pursuing somebody outside the city limits. If something happened on campus and then left campus and we were in pursuit, yes, the law would allow that.
Also, the law allows us to assist our other law enforcement agencies, the local police and the local county, in the event that they need assistance. And for that reason, we have the full support of both our city police and our county sheriff's office because they see this as an opportunity for additional law enforcement resources in the community. One more. Yes, ma'am. One more
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follow-up. For instance, and I'm sure none of your students would do it, but if you think one of the students living off campus is selling drugs or something,
would you have to get a court order or something to
Speaker 52
18:06
go into their apartment or house, or how would you handle something like that? If
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they were off campus, absolutely so. And if they were off campus, in many cases, we would coordinate
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those efforts with our local police. We already work very closely with our local police and would certainly continue to do so. Thank you very much. Committee, any
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
18:26
other questions, ladies and gentlemen? If not, at this time we'll go to the audience, and we have several people signed up to speak for and against the bill.
And first we'll be against Rita Schuyler. Schuyler, you're recognized to come to the... If I mispronounce your name, you've straightened me out down there. Gentlemen, will you all
just move around and let her have a seat at the table,
Speaker 66
18:56
please? MS. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Do you hear me? MR. No, ma'am. MS. No. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Yes, my name is Rita Sklar. Thank you. MR. I'm sorry. I apologize.
MS. It's a common mistake. Good morning, members of the committee. I'm the executive director of the ACLU of Arkansas, and I have shared my concerns with Mr. Biviano. I just want you to know before I came here to talk to you all. So I just want us to think back to the birth of our nation and the way that our founders weighed heavily what powers it was going to give to the state, knowing just what a state could do to its people. And one of the powers that they very carefully circumscribed was the power of the police,
and that was with the Fourth Amendment. In fact, the power of the police derives from the state. It is one of the signs of a sovereign state to have that power. Giving a private institution, particularly a private religious institution, the power of the police is like creating a sovereignty, like a Baptist Vatican in Arkadelphia or a Church of Christ Vatican in Circe. You will hear that this has been tried in several other states, but what you may not
have heard is that there have also been several challenges. It may violate the First Amendment with respect to religious institutions. In August of last year, the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled that Davidson, a private college, could not have police officers with the power to arrest suspects and enforce state law because the school is a religious institution. Allowing the school's security officers to carry out laws on behalf of the state violates the U.S. Constitution's prohibition against laws establishing religion, creating, quote,
an excessive government entanglement with religion, unquote, Judge Jim Wynn wrote in the unanimous opinion. The police power, quote, is an unconstitutional delegation of an important discretionary governmental power to a religious institution in the context of the First Amendment," Winn wrote before he left the state bench to join the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. The provision saying that these are not state actors, the provision in the bill is in conflict
with federal constitutional law. This is misleading to the universities, the students and the faculty, and the public. For example, in Indiana, it was ruled that the private campus police were subject to the Fourth Amendment. The Indiana High Court declared that since Indiana legislature expressly gave police at private colleges the same power, that it holds them to the same standards as government-employed police.
So if they have to follow the Fourth Amendment, then in spite of what the bill says, the school is going to be liable for the actions of the police officers if they violate someone's constitutional rights. Based on these state delegated powers, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled in 2003 that officers at private universities must abide by the same Fourth Amendment search and seizure constraints that apply to all other state actors. For instance, right now, a private security guard at Harding or another school could enter
a student's room without a search warrant if they thought there was criminal activity going on in there. But if they hire a police force in addition to the greater powers, they're going to have to get a warrant. So that's something to consider, I think, if you're looking at the policy side of it. Another example, Tennessee. College officials can be subject to constitutional requirements when they act in concert with police. Even if this were a well-thought-out bill with respect to implementation and liability,
it does nothing to resolve these issues regarding public oversight. If they are going to be a police department for all intents and purposes, then they should be subject to police scrutiny. Their actions should be FOI-able, and they should have to report to a public entity and like a police chief, for instance. I would think that something like that could be arranged. But right now, they're reporting to a private entity, and we just don't do that in this
country. We have our police or a public institution that we give the power to, and we expect them to report to us for giving them that great power. So this leaves open the question of whether these police reports are public or not, and students deserve to know whether reports are public or not. In other words, it leaves a great opening for litigation in many areas. Yale's records were ruled by the state FOI commission subject to open inspection because
their police force was a functional equivalent to a public agency. The test they looked at was whether it performed an essential government function, whether it was created by a government, the level of government funding it received, and the level of government involvement in regulation. In Tennessee, officials at private institutions of higher education are subject to Fourth Amendment constraints when they search students' dormitory rooms in concert with law, as I've described. For example, in State v. Burroughs, in 1996, when a student occupied a dorm room in a private college as a condition of living in campus housing, he and others were required to consent to unannounced and unscheduled searches by campus police.
The college's director of residential life learned that illegal drugs might be in the student room. He searched it, discovered a white powdery substance. The director then notified a dean who contacted local police. The student was charged with a drug offense. The student unsuccessfully sought to exclude evidence of his dorm search on the grounds that the director acted as an agent of police. However, the Supreme Court of Tennessee conceded that a relationship between college officials and the police might have made the officials police agents who were subject to the Fourth
Amendment. it. In other words, it puts these colleges and Arkansas at risk of litigation, which is always something to consider. That's all I have to say. I'll be
happy to take questions. Thank you. Committee,
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
25:57
questions, anyone? Thank you for your time.
Excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, too, because a little small hand went up over here. Representative Flemmer,
you're recognized. I appreciated your testimony, Ms. Sklar, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question for Ms. Sklar is regarding your use of the First Amendment. And I'm not an attorney, and I left Judiciary Committee because I wasn't an attorney. I feel like I'm a little more qualified here. But we are dealing with somewhat of a police and courts issue here, even though this is an Education Committee.
But my understanding of the lemon test would certainly allow police to be used on a religious institution, a campus supported by a religious institution. It is a secular purpose. It doesn't advance religion. And I don't see the excessive entanglement. We're dealing with public safety. And I guess, again, I would be interested in hearing a little bit more
why you believe that this is excessive entanglement, because you threw that out
there. Thank you, Mr. June. I read pieces of a decision by
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27:28
the North Carolina Supreme Court who interpreted that it was a violation of the First Amendment and why they thought it was. Does that answer your question? Okay,
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27:39
but you are an attorney, correct? No, ma'am.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were. I guess, but you put that out there, that it was excessive entanglement,
and then you're citing a court case, and I understand that, but keeping students safe does not seem to me to be excessive entanglement. The purpose is simply to keep students safe. It seems almost not to keep them safe would sort of be a discrimination against them.
Speaker 66
28:10
I think that there are other ways to do this. I've talked to Representative Viviano. I think that there could be arrangements with the police. They could hire police. If they have the money to train security guards to be, you know, under the police academy,
then they could probably hire police officers very much the way high schools hire resource officers. That way, they would be hiring people who were trained policemen – I have no problem with that – who were accountable to a police chief, accountable to the public. That is my concern, that the power of the police is a state power, is
given by the state. They should answer to the state.
That's what I was talking about. MS. I have a follow-up. Do not – don't school – don't a lot of cities through their police force, though, provide school resource officers free of charge or at least pay a portion of those
Speaker 66
29:10
resource officers? I believe so. I'm not aware of it. I was just saying since it's a private college, I doubt that the city would be able to do that. But if the private – you know, I'm just thinking – I'm not saying I'm against the idea of more security on campus. My son goes to a private school, too. and I just
think there are ways to do it without giving the power to the police. Obviously this is a contentious issue it's being litigated all over the country and I just think we're subjecting ourselves to litigation since there are you know it's being challenged everywhere and it's going to be again that's all. Thank you for that
information I appreciate thank you Mr. Chair. I may have a follow up question at a later time
Speaker 22
29:53
but thank you. Okay thank you. Mr. Biviano, you
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
29:59
have a question, Ms. Galar, Mr. Biviano?
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
30:02
Just a couple points of clarification, if I may. Yes, you may. Okay. First and foremost in the bill, it requires certified police officers in order to have these powers. So these officers would be trained. They'd be certified by the state of Arkansas before they had these powers. Second of all, I believe it was incorrect to say that this has not been implemented anywhere in the country. Fourteen states currently have allowed private
Speaker 83
30:31
universities and colleges to have this power.
Speaker 66
30:35
So I just wanted to clarify that. I don't believe I ever said it wasn't implemented. I said that you will hear that it has been implemented, but you won't have heard that it has also been challenged. That's what I was trying to explain. I'm sorry if I made that
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
30:51
unclear. Thank you. Committee, any other questions? Seeing none, thank you. Oh, excuse me, Ms. Hutchinson. You're trying to get rid of
Speaker 10
30:59
me. No, ma'am. These ladies don't hold their hand up high enough. It won't be the first time. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 50
31:05
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I'm trying to figure out the relationship is I know many companies have private security forces. I was surprised even in Iraq, the United States hired private security forces to protect their offices rather than using military. Is this a private security force that we're giving you permission to have, and what is the relationship of a private security force to the city police when that occurs?
Speaker 81
31:44
This is to anyone who can answer the question,
Speaker 17
31:50
I guess. I believe I can answer that. First of all, we already have a private security force, and what we are asking for is a sworn police agency. That's what we are asking for. Do we answer to the police? No, we do not answer directly to the police, but the police also still retain jurisdiction. Searcy Police would not lose jurisdiction over Harding University. They would still retain jurisdiction, so would White County Sheriff's Department.
So none of the existing agencies lose any jurisdiction that they already have. There would simply be another agency that would have a smaller jurisdiction. Also, if I may answer, and I think maybe this will help some other questions as well, the whole idea of delegation of police powers to a private entity. First of all, there's a very long history of that in our country, dating back over 100 years where originally with the railroads,
you had railroad police going back over 100 years where police functions were delegated to private entities. It's been more recent that that delegation has occurred to private universities, but it has certainly occurred in many, many states, and there have been very few challenges, actually. Most of the challenges that I have read have been based on wording of the law, and we have tried to craft this law and word it in a way where we would avoid most of those challenges,
Speaker 88
33:20
if not all of them, in the future. May I say
Speaker 66
33:27
something, Mr. Chairman? Yes, ma'am. I've kind of – go ahead. It seems like we're getting into the legal weeds here, and there is an attorney here who can better address some of these details than I, if you
Speaker 32
33:37
want to call him up. Thank you. you will we may address that in just in
Representative Jane English
Unverified
33:45
just a second revenue if you have a question thank you mister chairman i guess i'm i'm wondering we've got police forces on
public college campuses the real difference between this and uh... and the public is that a question for me or no open for them uh... I guess I'm
just confused here. I'm confused, too, Ms.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
34:08
English. I can think I've kind of strayed from the proper procedure of doing things, but I'm going to continue to
stray. And you may go ahead and ask the gentleman the question. But go ahead. Okay, thank
Representative Jane English
Unverified
34:21
you. I guess I just don't understand.
I mean, I see where you're
coming from. I'm not sure why this should be any different than a police force force or whatever at the University of Arkansas that's protecting those kids and all that? And does the city of Fayetteville have a relationship with the college police force? So I just don't understand what the big difference is here, other than it's your private college. Well, the first
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34:53
difference is there is no provision under Arkansas law currently
Speaker 17
34:57
that would allow a police department on private university campuses. So that's the big difference, and that's the difference that we are trying to overcome. After this law is passed, the only substantial difference would be public and private, that the relationship with the University of Arkansas police with the Fayetteville police would be probably very similar to the relationship Harding Police Department may have with the Searcy Police Department. You would see very few differences.
So I don't know if that answers your question entirely or not, but the main difference is currently there is no provision for police on private university campuses, and we are trying to
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
35:41
correct that. If I may add to that, I think one of the other differences is the private universities are not asking for any additional state funding for these police forces. They will pay for the officers. They will pay for their training. So there's no fiscal impact.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
36:00
Committee, any other questions? Ms. Killar, thank you for your testimony. And I apologize. I really should not have let some questioning the other gentleman while you were at the end of the table. And I apologize for that because it was your turn. I'm sorry for that. That's fine. Thank you. Next we have... I don't know if Mr. Davis was recording. Mr. Davis, do you still want to
Speaker 101
36:31
speak for the bill? okay okay thank you
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
36:33
mr rosenwick wants to speak against the bill would you gentlemen i'm going
to ask you to get up and leave the table please i should have done that a while ago and i just mr viviano i guess you need to kind of scoot back against the wall for just a minute and because we have something on the table it's their turn and uh questions should be directed to them
Jeff Rosenzweigen
Unverified
36:55
and, Mr. Bibiano, you'll have a chance to close. Okay? Thank you. My name is Jeff Rosenzweigen, Arkansas Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, and I want to follow up on some of the things that Ms. Sklar pointed out. First thing, again, to emphasize is what we're dealing here is a core governmental function,
not some sort of side issue, a core governmental function, the power to arrest, the power to deprive people of their liberty. And that's something that has been, you know, jealously guarded by people who are operating on behalf of the state, on behalf of the state. A private, for instance, the UALR police, the UA Fayetteville police, they're a state agency. They are, you know, they're ultimately accountable to the state. What you're doing here would be outsourcing, if you pass this bill in its current form, would be outsourcing a core, absolute core governmental function to a private entity, a completely private entity, a church, or, you know, for instance.
You've got all sorts of problems there. Secondly, you're going to have a huge confusion of roles as to when is this person operating as a campus security person versus when is this person operating as a law enforcement officer. And that's going to cause someone a whole lot of possible liability. For instance, let's say you have a private institution that prohibits the possession of certain books on campus that might be regarded as contrary to the teachings of the school,
and the certified law enforcement officer sees a person walking around with the book, and they confiscate the book. Are they operating as a private campus cop? Are they operating as a person on the police force? The idea that you're saying these people aren't agents of the state of Arkansas in this bill is worthless in light of the clear U.S. Supreme Court rulings that when you're outsourcing
a core governmental function like that, you're making these people agents of the state. Of course, you've got the First Amendment issue. You've got, you know, the ñ and you can go around and around on the lemon test. But again, the fact that this is a core function, I think, is going to be extremely important. If the issue is, well, we've got to be able to stop these people from, you know, when
they're ñ catch them committing a crime, there's an easier way to do it. And that ñ the way to do that is this. You already have any merchant has the power under state law to detain a suspected shoplifter. I mean, it's specifically granted if you want and without entangling government with religion and everything else like that, all you have to do is give campus police reasonable powers of detention for committing when they see the commission of, you know, have probable
cause for the commission of a crime. That's, anyway, those are some of the problems. I anticipate you're going to have that the institutions and maybe the state, depending on who does what, is going to have possibly a whole lot of liability. There are going to be a whole lot of challenges, and it's completely unnecessary and sets a horrible
Speaker 37
40:42
precedent. MR. Thank you, sir. Any questions, committee? Seeing none, thank you. What would another late bloomer here, Representative Clever?
MS. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Rosenzweig, you said there would be challenges. Who would bear the – would not the universities or the colleges and involved bear the
Jeff Rosenzweigen
Unverified
41:13
cost of handling those challenges? Well, it depends on who got sued. It depends on who all got sued. And for instance, if you are dealing with something that results in a, you know, a prosecution,
for instance, you know, you're going to have a – the state's going to be involved in defending it, presumably, certainly in a criminal case. And you know, if someone's rights get violated, they're going to try to sue at least everyone, you know, any person or entity that might have anything to do with it. Now then, of course, you have to sort out about immunity and that type of thing down the road. But here you're giving, you have the state giving all sorts of powers to a, state powers
to a private entity. Thank you.
Speaker 88
42:10
Any additional questions? Seeing none, thank you, sir, for your
Speaker 107
42:15
testimony. Anyone else want to testify for
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
42:21
or against the bill? Ms. Roebuck, Ms. Vice
Rita Sklar
Unverified
42:27
Chair, do you have a question or comment? Yes, sir,
Chair
Unverified
42:30
Mr. Chair. I'd like to hear from the attorney from ADHE. There's been several questions about what's happening now at our public institutions,
and so could we hear from ADHE about what the
Speaker 109
42:42
procedure is there and what their position
Speaker 111
42:56
is on this bill? I'm Janet Lawrence for the Arkansas Department of Higher Education, and I'm the attorney over there. And as far as our agency, we're neutral on this bill because our agency does not have any governing power over the independent colleges.
So this does not affect our agency or the state-supported institutions of higher education. So we are just remaining neutral currently.
Chair
Unverified
43:21
Ms. Lawrence, just going back and looking at this bill and comparing it to what happens in our public institutions. Public institutions do have police power, they do have security forces on their campus, correct? Yes, ma'am. And so is there any difference in what this bill sets forth for the private institutions
than what we currently have in place for the public institutions? Not to my knowledge. And so you're saying that all of the – at the public institutions, then those law enforcement officers do meet the requirements for certifications set out by the Arkansas Commission on law enforcement standards and training? MS. To the best of my knowledge, yes, ma'am. MS. Okay. That's
Speaker 36
44:02
what I needed to know. Thank you, Mr. Chair. MR. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
44:06
you for your testimony. MS. Thank you. MR. Committee, we are seeing no other comments from the audience. Mr. Bibiano, you are recognized to close for your bill.
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
44:14
MR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, members of the Committee. There's no question that there's risk and there's liability. We have the universities that are willing to assume that risk and liability. No matter what we do in today's society, there are those risks. Hopefully, if we're going to err, we're going to err on the side of the students and the children. We're not going to err on the side of the criminal, the murderers, the rapists, people that are dealing drugs. We're going to put a mechanism, an enforcement agency in place that will allow us to protect
our children. We're not asking for any more power than what's already granted to the state universities. No
more, no less. Our children need to be protected. Thank you for your consideration today. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
45:05
you, Mr. Viviano. Committee, Ms. Spears, do you have a motion? Yes, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. Do pass at
Speaker 114
45:13
the proper time. Okay. Committee, we have a motion to do
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
45:20
pass. All those in favor say aye.
Aye. Opposed? Like sign. Mr. Bibiano, you have passed your bill. Thank
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
45:33
Committee. Committee, next I'm going to turn it over to Representative Roebuck, and
Speaker 117
45:38
I'm going to present a little bill that doesn't do
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
45:51
much at all. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and you are recognized to present House Bill 1366.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
45:59
Thank you, Madam Chair. House Bill 1366, believe it or not, is a very simple bill. Back in the last session, Representative Cook actually passed this bill, and in coding it there was a word left out, and all
we're doing is simply reinserting that word back in. If you look on line 21, you'll see the word not underlined, and that word was in the original language. It was taken out when some other things were worked on, and we're simply reasserting that word back in.
I would entertain questions. It didn't entertain a good motion.
Chair
Unverified
46:37
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Are there questions? Yes. Representative McLean.
Speaker 120
46:41
Thank you, Madam Chair. Was this the situation that Representative Cook tried to fix during the fiscal session, or was it the end of the 09 session? At
Speaker 117
46:50
the end of 09. I believe the end of the regular
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
46:54
session, I believe. That is correct. Okay. It could be changed in codification of the law of that, but it did
Speaker 28
47:01
not get changed. Okay. That was my question.
Speaker 122
47:03
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Representative Carnine.
Speaker 123
47:14
Representative Carnine. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a motion at the
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
47:18
proper time. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Yes. Representative Stewart. Representative Stewart. I just want to make sure this is needed to allow bonuses, to allow NCSL payments. Those kind of are not, I mean, not NCSL, but NSLA, one of those acronyms and those things.
And you'll still have the Personal Apology Committee rules and regs in place to protect
Speaker 109
47:43
Any other questions from the committee? Anyone in the
Chair
Unverified
47:48
audience wishing to speak against the bill? Anyone in the audience wishing to speak for it? I believe we have Ron Harder from the Arkansas School Boards Association. Pass. Also, Mike Mertens from the Arkansas Association of Educational Administrators. Passing.
Anyone else wishing to speak for or against? Members, any other questions? Mr. Cheatham, would you like to close for your bill? Madam Chairman, I'm closed. Okay, and Representative Carnine, I recognize you for a motion. Thank you, Madam Chair. Do pass. Okay, the motion's been made. All in favor, aye. Aye. Any opposed, no. Mr. Chair, you've passed your bill. Thank you. Thank you, committee. We have no other bill, so with your permission, Mr. Chair,
I will adjourn the meeting.
Agenda
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
Speaker 4
Speaker 6
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
Speaker 17
Speaker 18
Speaker 21
Speaker 28
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
Chair
Unverified
Speaker 36
Speaker 32
Speaker 38
Speaker 41
Speaker 42
Speaker 49
Speaker 50
Speaker 52
Speaker 57
Speaker 66
Representative Ann V. Clemmer Chair
Unverified
Speaker 76
Speaker 22
Speaker 83
Speaker 10
Speaker 81
Speaker 88
Representative Jane English
Unverified
Speaker 95
Speaker 101
Jeff Rosenzweigen
Unverified
Speaker 37
Speaker 107
Rita Sklar
Unverified
Speaker 109
Speaker 111
Speaker 114
Speaker 46
Speaker 117
Speaker 120
Speaker 122
Speaker 123
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
Speaker 125