House Education Committee Part 1
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Transcript
Bills discussed (3)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
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HB1616
· 3 mentions in transcript, chapter
Matched: “…k has asked to run, she says, a non-contro bill. We'll see. House Bill 1616.”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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SB330
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “SB330”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1893
· 2 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1893”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
0:00
Committee, before we start the special order, we're going to give Senator Jeffress a little courtesy, let him reheat the bill, Senate Bill 330 in your packet. Chair sees a quorum,
I think. We've got a couple out in the hall that are going to come in in just a second, so we'll go ahead and do this. I'm sure it's non-controversial. Isn't that right, Senator Jeffress?
Well, I certainly hope so. Well, you recognize yourself for the record and you
Speaker 4
0:28
may proceed. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Cheatham.
Senate Bill 330 is one that we have that, very plainly and simply, it moves the date that the adequacy report is due to be given or to be made public back from September 1st to November 1st. Our staff has told us that it takes them more time to get the reports from the local districts than by – It's hard to get it by September 1st. Schools starting early in August, it's hard to get the data that they need to finish out their adequacy report by September 1st.
So this bill just moves that reporting date back to November 1st, but it also requires that the adequacy subcommittee be given a draft of it two weeks before it's made public. So it will give the committee time to look over and see if there are any mistakes before it's made public. And so I'd appreciate your consideration and a good
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:29
vote. Committee, any questions? Anyone? Seeing none, we'll go to the audience. Anyone want to speak against this bill, for this bill?
Seeing none, I have a motion to do pass. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed,
like sign. Senator Jeffers, I believe you finally passed a bill in
Speaker 4
1:50
here. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
2:03
be back. Representative Roebuck has asked to run, she says, a non-contro bill. We'll see. House Bill 1616.
And Mr. Kimbrell, would you come up to the table? I think she needs a
Speaker 15
2:28
little support here. House Bill 1616. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Speaker 19
2:42
Members, I think I left the bill at my desk.
Speaker 24
2:47
Excuse my voice. I've got it. Ms. Hobbs. Mr. Chair, members, thank you. This is a bill that amends current
Speaker 27
2:57
code. And because of my voice, I think I'm going to have to let Dr. Kimbrell present the bill. Dr. Kimbrell.
Speaker 32
3:11
Yes, ma'am. Mr. Chair, Madam Chair, we appreciate the opportunity. This bill deals with what has been termed as Act 1599.
Speaker 33
3:20
This requires that in the instances in school districts where the school board wants to hire through contract for purchase services, for contract for supplies, materials, or wants to contract for employment with the immediate family member of a board member, that there has to be a waiver given by the Commissioner of Education. In this, what actually we're asking to do is extend the period of time that we have to review these
and to be able to make this happen within a period of time that allows us to do our due diligence to check and make sure all of the documentation we need to make the decision is available. It takes from 10 days to 20 days, and these are calendar days upon receipt of the resolution from the board and all the relevant data that we need to either approve or disapprove. And the problem that we've run into is we're literally getting hundreds of these. And having staff available to do all of the background research, request all of the information,
if we don't make that determination within that 10 days, they automatically can either hire or contract with that entity. So we're asking for an additional 10 days to do that. We're also asking that the resolution that is sent by the school district be sent by certified mail so that we have a record receipt of when we received that. I can tell you I get them emailed to me. I get letters emailed without resolutions. We're trying to just clean up that language and formulate a plan that will allow us to do our work the best that we can
and ensure that we're not letting contracts happen that were not of the intent of the legislature and ensuring that people who are working in the public schools are doing so under a unique situation when they're kin to school board members. Thank you. Rep. Roebuck, do you have
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
5:16
additional comments? No, sir. Okay. Committee, any questions?
Seeing none, we'll go to the audience. Excuse me, Ms. Hopper, do you have a question? I do. Thank
Speaker 39
5:29
you, Mr. Chair, and I'm searching, searching, searching, and I bet Dr. Kimbrell
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
5:33
can answer this in about two seconds, and that is penalties. What happens, the downside if
Speaker 42
5:41
... Well, either we approve or disapprove.
Speaker 32
5:46
If we don't do that within the time period, then the contract
Speaker 33
5:50
can be moved forward. It's deemed to be approved by the commissioner.
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
5:56
And I wasn't clear, and I apologize. You rule against and a board goes ahead. If they go ahead
Speaker 33
6:04
and do that, they're in violation of the law.
That contract is not – is a contract that is not allowed. It's an illegal contract, and it can be an audit finding, and it could put the board and the school administrator in responsibility of payment for that contract, as well as it could be an ethical violation on that superintendent's license. Okay. Thank you. I just wanted that clarified. Thank
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
6:26
you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Any additional
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
6:28
questions? Seeing none, we'll go back to the audience. Anyone want to speak against this bill, for this bill? Committee, what is your pleasure?
Do pass, Mr. Chair. Motion to do pass. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed, like signed. I believe the ayes have it. Thank you,
Representative Roebuck. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Member. Committee, next we'll take up our special order, House Bill 1893. Representative Hobbs, you have a seat and identify yourself with the record, please. Committee, we have an amendment we're going to pass out on this bill,
and staff will get that to you and give you a minute. It doesn't look like it's real long. very complicated.
everyone have the amendment looks like it's fairly simple to deleted line 16 through 33 everybody see that and Ms. Hobb you're recognized
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
8:00
thank you Mr. Chair thank you committee first of all I'd appreciate a good vote on the adopting the
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
8:09
amendment we have a motion we adopt this amendment All of them in favor say aye.
Opposed? Like a sign. Leave the ayes. Have it. Ms. Hobbs, you may proceed. Thank
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
8:19
you, sir. I am Deborah Hobbs, that representative from District 96, and would you like for me to introduce my guest? Yes, let him introduce yourself. Good morning, Mr. Chair and members
Speaker 70
8:30
of the committee. My name is Tripp Walter, and I'm a staff attorney with the Arkansas Public School Resource Center. Thank you. Good to have
Tripp Walter
Unverified
8:36
you with us. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
8:45
This is another one of those non-controversial bills that we've been passing out very quickly this morning, so I'd appreciate a good vote, first of all. Basically, the bill you have before you would allow the Arkansas Department of Education to enter into agreements with proven providers to operate nontraditional teacher licensure programs rather than the ADE being the only agency to offer such programs. It would specifically designate Teach for America as an alternative licensing agency
for Arkansas. It would allow a streamlined licensing process with final determination based on student performance for second career professionals who would like to enter into the field of teaching. It would also allow a streamlined process for teachers licensed in the state other than Arkansas with full licensure based on student performance. The rationale for these changes are that research has confirmed that the single most important school factor contributing to student academic success is a quality classroom teacher.
The best way to assure a quality teacher in every classroom for Arkansas students is to not only take care of current high-quality teachers, but to attract new ones into the profession. By allowing the ADE the flexibility to enter into agreements with other high-quality licensing providers, it gives candidates more options to enter the profession. Teach for America, you may have seen them on – I know I saw them on Good Morning America recently – but Teach for America is a highly successful national program that places in
classrooms the best and brightest students from across the country that earned their degrees outside of teaching but want to serve time impacting students in schools located specifically in high poverty and minority geographies. TFA has a long history of success in Arkansas Delta Schools when the first teachers were placed in 1993. Today 170 TF teachers are serving and and impacting students in Arkansas Delta schools
with a plan to grow to over 200 by 2013. 60% of TFA members end up staying in education past their service commitment. So they 60% end up staying. By allowing TFA to license its teachers when they complete their two-year commitment, more might be encouraged to stay in Arkansas and teach in high-poverty schools. And let me remind you that I know we have passed legislation trying to attract teachers to those high-poverty schools.
I'm not sure how successful that legislation has been, but I do know that it's a concern that has been attempted to be addressed. I think this is one way to do that. In both Arkansas and Mississippi, 523 teachers were placed in 2010, impacting 44,370 students. During their time in TFA, these teachers receive training and support, which exceeds the state's nontraditional licensure program. Currently, if agreed professionals want to choose teaching as a second career, they must
go through a two-year process to be licensed in Arkansas. More might be encouraged if they could complete the required testing for content, get training specific to classroom management, and then be placed in classrooms as teachers with the final licensing determination based on student performance. The same is true for teachers licensed in other states who currently encounter barriers to being licensed in Arkansas. Thank you, Ms. Hobbs.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
12:34
Committee, before we go to... Ms. Carnot, I have one question before I go to you. Ms. Hobbs, on page 3, line 26, It talks about successfully completed the two-year Teach for America program. Tell me a
little bit about that program exactly. Okay. If you would,
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
12:53
I'm going to allow Mr. Tripp to answer that question. That'll be fine. Thank you.
Speaker 70
13:06
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have individuals here, if the committee would like to hear from them. And we have Mr. Nurnberg, who is the director of the Delta Area Program, who can perhaps give you more specifics. I'll be glad to give you some essentials. Just give me some highlights. Yes, sir. A Teach for America candidate, or if you will, an applicant, once they're accepted into a program, undergoes a two-year program of training.
Teach for America has its own curriculum and own processes to prepare their new teachers to enter the classroom. They have a five-week summer institute that has to be completed in the summer before the new teacher would start his or her work assignment before they become the teacher of record in an Arkansas public school. Along with that, Teach for America has its own comprehensive curriculum for professional development that the candidate engages in throughout the program.
They also have additional coursework, graduate credit hours that are completed. They have their own reading program curriculum that is completed and additional requirements of an ongoing nature that the teacher must go through both initially and throughout the program to enhance their, in my understanding, both training and pedagogical skills, classroom management skills, not only supporting them when they first go into the classroom, but
throughout the process, and with the chair's permission, if the chair and the committee would like to hear, Mr. Nuremberg is at the table. That
Speaker 84
14:52
will be fine, and we'll let him, I guess, and I'll ask him
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
14:56
this question. How much of the training is actually done before that teacher is entered into the classroom? What I guess I'd like to know. Fire yourself the record, please.
Did you hear my question? Sorry. There you go. I heard
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
15:24
the question. I wasn't smart enough to work the mic. I apologize. My name is Ron Nurnberg, and I'm the executive director for Teach for America in the Mississippi-Arkansas Delta, a position which I've held since 1996.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
15:38
Do these teachers actually go through some training or how much training before they actually enter the class? When
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
15:43
I make my question. Yes. There's both the training, and if I may, I'm going to back it up just two steps and just talk about both the selection and the recruitment and the selection process as well.
because I think that, again, sets our folks apart. So for this year, nationwide, we had over 48,000 folks competing to come into Teach for America. Of that, we're currently selecting in probably a core of about 4,800 to 5,000. In other words, not even one in 10 will probably get selected into Teach for America. So it was a very high bar to begin with of a proven academic and a proven leadership record because we see teaching as leadership.
Before people, once they are selected into Teach for America and they accept their bid, and in this case, if we know they're coming to Arkansas, saw, they are given all of their coursework prior to their even arriving at the summer training that Trip was talking about. They refer to it as the Boot Camp of Teacher Training. We refer to it as the Summer Training Institute. And in fact, as of last year, all of our Delta folks actually train with Delta students in
the Delta. actually hold it this as of last year on the campus of Delta State University we our Institute team sets up partnerships with in this case 12 of our surrounding partnering districts in Mississippi and run the summer school programs which are very rigorous both enrichment and remediation for students so from the from the get-go those incoming teachers who have strong content knowledge are then
getting the the practical experience and the pedagogy they take as Tripp was saying and Debbie mentioned earlier graduate coursework as a part of that again that is credit through Delta State University and and because of their practicum they have that they are working in cohorts of four from day one in the classroom over the summer of running a what setting high expectation for the students,
diagnosing where their kids are, and measuring the progress they're making to guide their instruction. And so they have all of that. In addition to, in this case, we are introducing them to Arkansas frameworks and standards, a delta induction so both introducing them to community and history of community through the summertime before they ever come in the classroom in the fall a very
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
18:37
long-winded answer I apologize thanks sir what is your retention of those
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
18:43
teachers rest their first year it's actually it's very high
And we set retention measurements around that. About the last, I guess about the last five years have been about 97, 98 percent retention of people who complete their first year of a two-year commitment. And usually we see that two to three percent of those who fail to be able to complete that have family circumstances or health circumstances themselves that
Speaker 89
19:10
prevent them from being able to complete that. All right. Thanks, sir.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
19:16
Representative Carnine, do you have a question?
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
19:20
Well, actually, my question, I think, is probably more relevant for asking ADE. I'm very positive about Teach for America and knowing a lot of young people and not so young people who have been part of that. Yes, sir. My only question is, for you, is your interpretation of this bill limited to Teach America only, Or does it open itself up to others applying for the same status in terms of accreditation
and licensure as a teacher? And I also noticed you had guidance counselors in here too. So my question is, and again maybe it's ADE that should answer the question, but I would be, I think, very positive about, not only think, I know it would be, if it's limited to Teach America, because I know that's a program that's been validated. My question about the bill is, does this open up, though, licensure, non-traditional, further
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
20:30
beyond Teach America? Representative Carnot, I'll attempt to answer that, and someone in the audience may need to step forward to help me out. But if you will look on page 3 of the bill, online, well, it actually begins on line 23 where it talks about meeting the academic and experience eligibility requirements. Correct. And then under Section B, it says, been awarded the master's degree from an accredited teaching program
in an institution of higher education. and it's as far as the guidance counselors that part has been amended out of the bill okay so that that that was what the amendment was that
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
21:16
we adopted at the beginning yes sir again i i appreciate the again but the question i have as i look at this then it's not just limited to teach america that's why i wanted ade to to obviously if that's their understanding of the bill well
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
21:32
Well, again, it talks about being awarded a
master's degree. But, I mean, they're welcome to come up and answer further. Or Ms. Smith is here. She's going to probably help us. Ms. Smith, do you
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
21:44
think you can answer that question, or do we need to get ADE up
Kathy Smith
Unverified
21:50
here? Ms. Carnahan. I believe I can answer that, sir. My name is Kathy Smith with Walton Enterprises. What this bill does, let me get situated here. it really provides the opportunity for more people to come into the teaching profession
given that we're going to have core standards implementation you've heard a lot about that we want high quality teachers in front of every student in Arkansas so what it does is it creates an easier path for reciprocity which are teachers who are fully licensed in other states coming into Arkansas and want to teach Secondly, Teach for America, as you heard, that that would be a process agency. The State Board of Education would still be the licensing agency. It does not take that away from anyone. The State Board of Education would still maintain that.
Also, as Deborah just mentioned, the colleges and universities that have Master's of the Arts of Teaching programs, Master's Degree in Teaching, that is recognized now as a path for high-quality teachers. And then the other one is for second-career professionals for high school courses or credit-bearing courses. For example, in these communities, if we have an engineer, we have an accountant, someone who has at least three years' experience in their profession and want to come into the classroom and teach engineering courses, math, higher-level math courses,
those kinds of things with that specialty, they can do
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
23:19
so with this program. Ms. Cornine, does that answer your question? or are you still, like me,
Speaker 109
23:25
scratching your head? Well, again, I understand what you
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
23:29
said. And, again, I know I guess I have some understanding and past experience with Teach America, but I think the question I wanted and was very adequately answered by Smith, and that is, does this open up the whole area?
because that's not the current path that's available now. So this is a significant change, which I don't necessarily think I'm against as much as, like I said, the Teach America, I'm not sure what the debate would be for not doing it. But I wanted to make sure that I was clear on that, that we were not just limiting it to one agency. So thank you. Okay. Rep. Roebuck has a question.
Speaker 113
24:16
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just so I clarify, did you say that you are actually collaborating with Delta State University in Cleveland, Mississippi? That is correct. And you collaborate with them in partnership with
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
24:33
them for how many hours of instruction? All of our teachers coming through the summer training received nine graduate course hours plus the practicum. And then one other thing I would say is we don't believe that the training stops, you
know, at the end of that training but continues on throughout the course of the two years. I think, again,
Speaker 44
24:59
that sets our model, programmatic model, apart. And, sir, what is your rationale for contracting with an out-of-state
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
25:07
university when we have excellent universities in the state of Arkansas? Teach for America has, at this point, eight summer training institutes around the country, and it's a matter of economics of where those come. Before last year, we always sent our folks for that summer training to Houston to train.
So we're very happy to have it actually in the Delta. So not only do our now incoming Delta Corps members, of which there were 280 last year, there, but other regions from around the
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
25:43
training site in Arkansas? That is correct. And why is that? Because of economies of size, basically. Okay. Yeah, I was going to say there was a competitive bid put up, you know, two years ago to get
the one housed at Delta State.
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
26:03
Were Arkansas universities a part of that RFP process?
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
26:06
It was put out nationwide and then submitted a proposal, as far as I know.
Speaker 113
26:12
Did you receive any proposals from institutions inside of Arkansas? Not that I am aware of, no. Mr. Chair, if I may, another question. Ms. Hobbs, you talk about on lines 26 through 29, and there is the word or there.
Speaker 44
26:30
So let me see if I understand this. If we had an applicant that had completed the two-year Teach for America program, then that person would be eligible for the nontraditional license. Yes. And then my follow-up is, if we had an applicant that had completed a master's degree in any area, any area, could be in agriculture, It could be in athletic training.
It could be in any area from an accredited teaching program. So it would have to be in an accredited teacher program in Arkansas or anywhere.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
27:14
I believe the way it's worded, it can be anywhere. But if you will also continue on that page, it does say the state board may still require an applicant who meets the criteria to submit proof of the following academic eligibility. So there's also additional
criteria that the State Board may require of that applicant.
Speaker 77
27:35
And that's permissive, so it's May, right? Correct. But it is up to the State Board to do that. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Thank
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
27:52
you, Mr. Chair. Representative Hutchinson, I believe you had a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our state has tried About every approach we can think of to get teachers to go to low-income the Delta area
We've given them bonuses. We've offered funds to pay for housing and we haven't had that much success How is it that you're able to
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
28:18
get teachers to go to these areas? I? think the fact that we recruit actively at over 500 of the top Colleges and universities across the country, that is, literally, we have recruitment directors on those campuses looking for top college talent. I think the understanding of the graduating seniors across the country is they're looking,
they feel privileged by a good education, and they want to give something back. And so Teach for America is a vehicle through which they can do that. and teaching is the way they can do that. So in some ways, people sort of refer to us as a domestic Peace Corps in some ways. So I think it appeals to people's sense of service and action at the same time. And what we're seeing is, you know, two-thirds of our folks on the back end of this commitment are staying in education, you know, one now to 20 years out.
On the front end, they would only about 10 percent say they would have gone into the classroom
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
29:32
Yes, ma'am. The Peace Corps, they get paid by Peace Corps very little, but they do get a salary from them. Do these teachers get paid by our state, or
do they get paid by your organization, or how is that handled?
Speaker 89
29:48
They are paid by the local school district as far as their salary is concerned. Yes, ma'am. yeah at
Speaker 131
30:04
the beginning teacher salary that may have a
representative summers like miss chairman and i apologize for being a light uh... and i think it's been answered but one of the benefits of this program to understand that is attracting teachers to areas that
normally would have a great deal of difficulty
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
30:26
Yeah, Teach for America, we only place and build partnerships with schools that have a record, an ongoing record of test scores that need improving and of kids who are on free and reduced lunch. So we're very carefully targeting the kids that need the most help to improve. Okay.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
30:49
Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. Committee, any additional questions? seeing
none at this time we'll go to the audience we have I think about nine people signed up to speak for or against this bill and we'll start with
you against and of course I don't want to place a burden on anyone but since we are limited in our time I would ask you to be as you come to the table for or against to present your case in a concise manner
and then we'll try to move on in a proper
and in a speedy manner. I believe first we have signed up to
Speaker 127
31:33
speak against the bill. Tony Finley. Would
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
31:40
you sit at the end of the table, please? Okay. Mr. Johnson,
identify yourself with the record, please.
Speaker 143
31:52
I'm Calvin Johnson, and I serve as Dean of the School of Education at the University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, and I want to thank Dean Finley for volunteering me to be first, but it's all right. Mr. Chairman and Committee, first I want to make clear that I'm not here to bash Teach for America, but I am opposed to this bill for several reasons, and I'll try to explain a couple of those to you. I'm very concerned, first of all, that some of
the comments that you just heard that were presented to you, which are facts, that most of these teachers are assigned to the Delta, some of the poorest schools in the state of Arkansas. If you note that many of the discussions that we have had here during this session and others have attempted to address the performance or the lack of performance of students in the delta where poverty is the standard. I believe, I personally believe, and I'm sure
many of you agree, that this is the area where we need some of our best trained teachers. But at the same time, we take pride in saying that we assign these teachers to schools where where students are struggling and there's difficulty in attracting some of your highest qualified teachers. My question to the committee would be, are these the kinds of teachers that you would want to teach your children or your grandchildren? Or would you prefer to have teachers that have met some of the highest standards in this nation when it comes
to teacher preparation programs? Arkansas has established, one, there's a professional teacher standards board that oversees some of the licensure issues and policies that the department administer. We have the state board that oversees the department. And then we have our programs that align with the national standards. All of the institutions that prepare teachers in Arkansas are required by the state to be accredited by the National Council
accreditation of teacher preparation. That is the largest and the most effective accrediting agency in this country. And more recently, I would like to share with you that that body and TEAC, which is the other accrediting body, have joined forces now to even have a more rigorous set of standards for teacher preparation programs. I think that we're at a point that we would be moving backwards to adopt a bill and policies like this. We currently have, and it was mentioned, we have an alternative program that is already
administered by the department. We have another non-traditional route through the MAT program, and it's hard for me to understand why we would need another set of rules to govern a special group of teachers to teach students, to teach our students in our school. More More recently, the accrediting body that I mentioned to you, NCATE, established a Blue Ribbon Commission, and that commission recommended that the best practice based on research is
that we would extend our internships to a full year. Now if the research showed that teachers that go through a program for a whole year learning to be teachers and to perfect the things that they have learned in the classroom, then why would we want to go backwards and say that a person that goes through a two-month program at best would serve some of the Bible teach children that's in the most needy schools? We had you approved a bill to close the achievement gap. That achievement gap is mainly because
of the children coming from the kinds of schools that we are talking about. So I just say to you members of this committee, look at that bill, see what it is really saying, and ask yourself the question, is this the kind of policy that you want to put in place? I believe that we have one of the highest recognized teacher licensure program in this country. It stands up with any of them. So I think to initiate a policy where there's another standard, another set of standards where people can enter the classroom is a step backwards.
Mr. Chairman, I would just be pleased to ask any questions. Thanks, sir. Representative Summers, you're recognized. Thank you, sir, for your testimony. And I believe you did validate the fact that there is a shortage of teachers in the Delta by your opening comments. Yes, that is. And I would assume, and I'm making assumptions, so please correct me if I'm wrong, I would assume that a big part of this shortage would be on the math and science side of that.
That would be a part of it,
I would think, yes. Your institution, I would suspect, would serve the Delta. How many math and science teachers do you all graduate per year, just approximately, and what percentage or what portion of them stay to teach in the Delta? And I may be asking you questions that you don't have in front of you. I don't have all of
Speaker 143
37:16
the information, but the majority of the teachers that we graduate ways stay in the area where they are from, and that is mainly from the delta.
Now like most programs throughout this country, we have a shortage of math and science teachers. However, that is on the mend because we have now STEM programs that are attracting more students into the math and science areas. But I would also say even that is factual, I would ask you again are these the kinds of teachers, are they better prepared than the teachers that we have currently in the classrooms? And it also allowed me to raise another question, and that is that you might want to answer
as a member of this committee, why do we have the highest percent of these teachers in the delta? Why are they not in other parts of the state? Now, I didn't mean to take your question and raise another question, but that is something that I needed to share with you. But I think that the major question that you ask, I think all of the programs in Arkansas now are designed and trying to accommodate the shortage of math and science teachers, and that's a shortage all over this country. Yes,
sir, and it seems to me that if there is a possible solution that you all would
be interested in looking at that, I would think you would agree with that. Thank you,
Speaker 113
38:40
sir, for your testimony. Representative Roebuck has a question. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome, Dr. Johnson, back to the room where you chaired this committee. Thank you. And we appreciate you being here. Isn't it true that this bill has to do with really licensure and making sure that our teachers understand the pedagogy of the profession? I think I would agree.
Is that your understanding? Yes. MS. Is it also your testimony, Dr. Johnson, that these teachers could
Speaker 44
39:09
go through the Arkansas Department of Education non-traditional licensure program as well as seek a Master of Arts in teaching at universities across our state? MR.
Speaker 143
39:19
Let me answer that with two parts. One, my preference would be that they would go through a teacher preparation program. I am dean of the School of Education, and that is my responsibility to recruit, retain, graduate students as teachers.
However, if that not be the case, then we do have a program, like you said, at the Department of Education that should be available to any student that
Speaker 24
39:42
wants to teach in Arkansas. And so if one of these teachers did not have a master's, they could go through
Speaker 113
39:50
the Master of Arts of Teaching? Through the Master of Arts in Teaching is correct. Is it still the case that some of our universities actually offer that program online? Do we have – is University of Arkansas at Monticello still offering that program predominantly online?
Speaker 146
40:04
I don't know, but I know there are representatives from Monticello
Speaker 113
40:07
here that could answer that. Okay. Maybe we can get that later.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
40:14
Okay. Thank you, sir. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Rep. Hutchinson, do you have a question or – Yes. Thank you, Dr. Johnson, for coming. And you are correct. In the America's Report Card, Arkansas gets A's and B's in the teacher licensing procedure. We get A's and B's in teacher salary. We get A's and B's in training for our teachers. But we get a D in student achievement, and that's the most important factor.
It seems like this approach, the standard is, will be our students' learning. Would you be open to that new approach and not just looking at license and salaries and the training sessions? Would you be open to
trying this as a new standard, are students learning? Well, I
Speaker 146
40:59
agree with you that the trend now is towards assessing teachers
Speaker 143
41:04
based on student performance. But if you're asking would I agree that this program is the right approach, then I do not
agree that this would be the right approach. I'm assuming I understood your question. If I gave you the wrong answer, ask the question again. All right. Seeing no other questions.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
41:24
Dr. Johnsons, thank you for coming here today and testifying. Thank you, sir. Next we have on the list before the bill is Ms. Vaught, Ms. Joyce Vaught. You come to the table. Excuse me. Sir, did you want to make comments
Speaker 159
41:40
too? He's against the bill, sir. Okay.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
41:43
You'd have to wait. We'd have to wait, sir. Ms. Vaught, come to the table, please. Mr. Vaught,
a little button, push it, green light, it will come on. We're supposed to help her out there, Tommy. Oh, that button.
Speaker 163
42:06
Okay, I'm not in. Calvin and I have worked together for a long time, and I hate to get up here and follow him
and disagree with everything he said, but I must. Okay, identify yourself, please. I'm Joyce Vaught, superintendent of schools in Lake Village, Arkansas, which is about as far into the deltie as you can get without jumping in the river. We could not start school, could not open the school doors if it were not for Teach for America. Twenty percent of my faculty comes from Teach for America. They're the best and the brightest that I have. Not only in science and math, but I have them throughout the school in the lower elementary.
We just finished our standard review. Those are dirty words. last week, and they had occasion to visit one of the fourth grade Teach for America students from New York City, and they stayed the entire time in his room listening to him teach. He's a first-year teacher, and they had never heard a better presented lesson than Mr. Scarford taught. Came back and made that report, so I had to go find out what in the world was he teaching, and it was some kind of science program that he was doing with the fifth graders.
We have been involved in this program with Teach for America for about ten years. There are no teachers. There's a teacher shortage, as we just pointed out, and teachers who want to teach go to Northwest Arkansas. They don't come to the Delta, and this is the best thing that's ever happened as far as the Delta's concerned with teachers, and we're happy to have them. They come to us with what they've learned during the summer, and they are good instructors in the classroom,
from high school all the way down to lower elementary. Now, I know that you think because we're in the Delta that we're poor, and we're all of those things that you talk about, but we're not. Our school in Eudora scored the highest in the state last year. We topped the state of Arkansas in the benchmarks. and we've had great success with these people with the training they've had we
also do our state law the 10-day staff development of our own before school starts we do classroom management and some of the things that we think that they might need fortunately they've already had it because they spent the summer teaching in Mississippi and they are teaching students who need summer courses. The ones that they've been teaching are the ones that had to come back for the summer because they had failed the regular school year. So they've had training and plenty of it to do what they want to do.
I can't say enough good things about them. We just could not operate without them because there are no teachers in Southeast Arkansas. And I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have concerning what they do. I have
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
45:09
one and I think Representative Stewart has one. My question is kind of personal. How long have you been at that school? As superintendent. As
Speaker 122
45:17
superintendent, how long have I been into school or how long have I been in education? Which one of those three answers do you want? All three of them. All three of them. Okay. I've been in a superintendent for the past 20 years.
I've been in the school district 55 years, and I've been in education for 65 years. Now, does that answer all three of them? I know. And if you'd like for me to stand up to show you that I can still stand
Speaker 161
45:44
after 65 years in education, I'll do that too. God bless
Speaker 171
45:47
you. I need it. Representative Stewart, if you had
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
45:50
a question. Yes, thank you. And Ms. Fault, are you aware of the current nontraditional certification process that we have available to our teachers? Yes. Okay.
Have any of the Teach for America teachers, after their two years, taken advantage of that to get certified? No. Have any of the teachers stayed in your school after their
Speaker 163
46:12
two years? Oh, yes, I've got two years, three years, four years, five years. We've encouraged them to settle in. My elementary librarian decided to go back to school and stay in Lake Village. My high school English teacher has been there four years. I had one that just wouldn't leave last year.
It was her fifth year. They've become a part of the community, and we are encouraging them to stay. In fact, we would like for Teach for America to encourage them to stay at least three years. We have many three years Teach for America. I like four and five years, but I'll take them for two if I can get them. The people that are
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
46:48
staying past the two-year obligation, what kind of license are they teaching on? Well, they have to
Speaker 163
46:53
take the practice three before they can get licensed. They're teaching on Arkansas Certificate, Arkansas Licensing. So they are going through a licensing process.
They have to go through that third year, which is unnecessary. They've talked two years, and they have proved that they can teach. We've never had a one who failed practice one or practice
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
47:13
two. Okay, but the process is not cumbersome the way it is, getting that third, getting the art is all non-lastic. They've already
Speaker 163
47:21
approved, they've done their practice teaching in the two years that they're there, so we think practice three is just added insult, I guess you'd
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
47:30
say. Okay, well, I'm a product of the non-traditional certification process, and so is my wife.
We have some teachers who have been through that, too. I went through the state program for non-traditional and
then became a biology teacher, a science teacher, and then my wife went through the MAT program. So I know
Speaker 163
47:48
a little bit about those. I have some MAT teachers, too. We have them from every one, every kind of program there is. I guess I have some. When you're teaching in the Delta, you reach out and you get what's
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
48:00
out there. Okay. Well, I've got another question back for the author in a minute on the two-year, three-year question,
but I'll ask her when she
Speaker 163
48:08
gets back there. Just ask me things that I know well. Let me tell
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
48:13
you about my teachers. Committee, any other
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
48:17
questions? Ms. Hopper? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. Fall, is it? Vault. Vault, okay. I
apologize. With a V. Thank you. Thank you. Actually, one question, but you said I asked you something that you know, and I feel confident you'll have the answer to this. Oh, sure. You referenced a while ago a quote we could not do without the teachers from the Teach for America program.
If you would, share with us what it was like before those folks were available to you, when you said we couldn't do
Speaker 165
48:53
without them. Well, we had to search foreign-wide. One year we did a search over the nation. We flew in anyone who
Speaker 163
49:03
answered our ads, and we gave several people nice vacation trips to the Delta. And then they left us and went on to Colorado and notified us that they had taken the job in Denver.
We looked all over the United States before this, and then we searched through Mississippi for retired teachers. And I'm going to tell you exactly what my principals tell me. I'd rather have Teach for America for two years than to have a retired, tired teacher in the classroom. These people come with a mission. They come to work. They work. After school, they tutor. They go down to McDonald's. After school is out, meet with a group of kids over in the corner, do some math or science or whatever they're teaching,
get in their cars and drive down to your door and repeat the same thing. And this is on their own time with their own students that they know need help. Now, you talk about, Calvin said something about, would you want them teaching your children? Well, they taught both of my granddaughters, who are now in college, and both on the dean's list. So, yes, I would want them teaching my grandchildren. Or my children, no, grandchildren, our great-grandchildren, if I had any. But we searched everywhere through Arkansas.
So we have some that can't come to the MAT program, and we have some that came through the other programs. But we look everywhere for teachers, and we'll interview anybody who comes in and tells me that they have a degree in something and they want to teach. So we don't just limit it to Teach for America. Does that answer your question? It
Speaker 42
50:49
does. And more than answer, I'm sure. Thank you so much. And
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
50:52
I was right. You did have the answer.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank
Tripp Walter
Unverified
50:58
you, Ms. Volk, for your time and testimony. Is that
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
51:09
all? Yes, ma'am. That's all. Thank you. Mr. Finley, we'll go back to you now. You're signed up to speak against the bill. Yes.
Tony Finley
Unverified
51:17
Sit down and identify yourself for the record, please. My name is Tony Finley. I'm Dean of the College of Ed, Harding University, and Assistant Vice President for Adult and and extended education.
And Mrs. Vaught saying she has taught 65 years kind of energizes me because I thought I had been around a while, but I've only taught 47 years, so I commend her on that. I would like to first begin by clarifying something that, at least in my mind, this This bill is not about whether TFA, Teach for America, teachers can teach in Arkansas or not.
It's been kind of talked about, that's the essence of this bill. Whether this bill passes or not, TFA teachers will still be able to teach in Arkansas. That's not the issue on this bill at all. They've been in Arkansas through a program with the Arkansas Department of Education quite a number of years, and that would continue if this bill does not pass. So what she's talking about in the Delta would not change at all. This bill is simply about the change in how the licensure process would be if TFA personnel
wanted to receive licensure, a standard, initial licensure, then a standard license in Arkansas. It also goes beyond that to the non-traditional program and changes how they would receive licensure. So that seems to be the essence of the bill as I read it. We at Harding have an MAT program, Master of Arts in Teaching, in all the secondary areas that are offered for licensure except business education we do not offer at all anymore.
We offer it in mid-level and offer it in early childhood beginning in the fall. We also have a degree completion program that we work with community colleges on to bring them in and they finish their last two years with us to be a teacher. We have sites at Bentonville and Little Rock and we have course sites at other areas where we do this. And there are a lot of universities that do this. A TFA, current TFA teacher in the Delta, I've had calls from several, and there's several working on a master's with us.
We have courses offered in the Pine Bluff area at the co-op there. And those teachers are trying to improve and get their master's and get their license. And our MAT program, you can complete in 18 months. And one year of that is your student teaching. And we supervise that student teacher out in the field with the university supervisor for that 18 months. I'm sorry, for the 12 months or nine months, the school year.
And then they have a cooperating teacher, and that teacher is pathwise trained. All of our supervisors are pathwise trained. And in 18 months, they not only get their teaching license, but they work that year and get paid. And when they finish their master's, then they go up on the pay scale considerably. So, you know, it seems like a good route for, you know, the TFA teachers to pursue because they're already, you know, in the school that year and teaching.
The bill, it appears to me that this bill is designed to broaden and loosen the routes to standard teaching license in Arkansas, you know, by more than one group. And I think there's some unintended consequences that we might need to at least look at on this bill. I know the Department of Education has done a very good job in the past of being able to build a wall around the state of Arkansas, keeping out what I call for-profit and not-for-profit universities,
especially the online education programs that are trying to infiltrate into different states. And Arkansas is one, if anyone from the Department of Higher Ed here also know that they knock on the door almost every hour, every day, and this is a threat to the in-state universities. We are one of the only states because of accreditation in Arkansas, and that is NCATE accreditation,
And the Higher Learning Commission accreditation, the SPAs that we all have to address, and then the practice exams that our teachers have to take. When those go away, then the wall comes down, and then we've got everything available in the state that's offered in all other states in the United States, which would be really good for the state university teacher ed programs and the students in our classrooms in the
state the the one piece I don't understand in the bill and might get some clarification on that at some point is the non-traditional licensure program that's been in the state for several years I was on blue ribbon commission that made the first recommendations on that many years ago and it is evolved in a different program from what was recommended at that time and that now is operated by ADE but in this bill it says it would be
operated by the State Board of Education and I'm not sure how that process you know would would work and on page 2 line 33 the State Board has been in this bill is given authorization to operate the non-traditional license program and you You know, I'm not sure how that would work, how, you know, it seems like the ADE is doing a good job with that now. I don't know what the purpose of that is. And, you know, how would they operate?
It says they would develop the rules and regulations, which there are already rules and regulations, so I assume the state board possibly would change those for some reason. I'm not sure why that would be in here. The page 3, line 26, says what qualification does the TFA program have and why are they exempt from any accreditation requirements which traditional programs must comply? I think Calvin did a very good job on that issue in his opening remarks.
And on page 3, line 26 through 29, there seems to be inconsistency between these items. One meets rigid accreditation requirements set forth by ADE and the others do not. And then page 4, line 2, why exempt and rationale, that is the Teach for America, after teaching two years they are exempt from pedagogical courses, it seems like that's the cart before
the horse. to come before the two years, and I'm not sure about that. I know our teachers in a traditional program, ours at Harding, get about 30 hours of pedagogical work before they go out into the student teaching, and then they have about 700 hours of internship in their program. So they're out in the schools between 700 and 900 hours in their program. So they spend a lot of time in the schools before they actually student, you know, go
into teaching. There are several other things here, but I know my time is running short. Line 5, page 5, line 11, how many additional hours by whom, what, where, when, and accredited. And page 5 line, who determines and what criteria. several questions about, you know, several lines. Let me summarize this quickly. It appears that this is a bill designed to address the multiple routes approach to teacher or licensure, but
ignores the political realities, that is, rules and regulations that are, that constrain traditional programs and institutions, that is, accreditation, spas, program, reviews, etc. It appears to favor non-traditional routes provided by ADE or the Board and TFA, both of which are free from regulatory constraints placed on them by ADE itself. That is a conflict of interest, at least politically. Further, this bill may have larger unintended, presumably consequences of exploitation by
out-of-state, for-profit, non-profit, online teacher education programs. And it seems to elevate the administrative function of ADE to the State Board. Ultimately, it may adversely affect student performance by comprising the license standard and processes that provide quality teachers to our state schools. So I would just like to say that speaking against this bill, there are several issues that I think will greatly affect our educational programs in the state.
I'd be glad to address any questions
Speaker 44
1:00:57
that you might have. Thank you, sir. We've got a couple
Speaker 113
1:01:00
of questions, Ms. Roebuck. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Finley, I know you're here representing Harding University, but are you also here
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:01:07
representing some of the other deans around the state at teacher training institutions? Yes, ma'am. I'm unofficially representing all the independent colleges. I think I was the only one that could come today of the independent universities, and so I would be representing them. I also said on the Council of Deans, the board, the Council of Deans,
and the board of ARACTE here in Arkansas. And I called Dr. John Jones, who is our chairman of the Council of Deans, and he asked me to speak for that council today also. So is it your understanding that the Councils of Deans are
Speaker 113
1:01:39
opposed to this bill? Yes, ma'am. Thank you. We have
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:01:46
three representatives signed up for questions. Representative English. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Jane English
Unverified
1:01:52
Can you tell me what does it cost for a person to go through the MAT program?
Speaker 200
1:01:58
It would depend upon the university. It would be a
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:02:04
somewhat different cost at different universities. It would be similar to whatever a master's degree I could speak for. Harding is a private institution. Our tuition is more than other institutions. a three-hour course, we do have at Harding what we call a teacher discount or teacher scholarship, which is a 38% discount for teachers.
And for someone going through that MAT, we also give them that 38% discount. And with that, we become pretty competitive with other universities. I'm going to guess most of the state universities, and someone that's here from State University correct me Calvin what
Speaker 201
1:02:49
would be roughly a time plus 700 an hour I'm
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:02:55
gonna guess a state university between six and eight hundred dollars an hour something like
Representative Jane English
Unverified
1:03:02
so this is a like a master's degree a 30 year
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:03:06
I'm in a 30 hours yes ma'am it'd be approximately 30 hours and part of that that your student teaching is part of those hours also and the thing about it during that student teaching period they would be taking the student teaching for that one year but they'd also be taking courses now the the MAT is also the State Department of Education ADE requires that person to have a major in the teaching area for secondary or
30-hour equivalent so we get students into our MAT that want to teach mathematics, and they were a biology major, but they won't teach mathematics, let's say. So they've got to do some leveling courses to get up to the 30-hour equivalent. We have quite a few people that have come from out of state to be in our MAT class or program, and they plan to stay in Arkansas and teach, which is very positive. Thank you very much.
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
1:04:08
Representative Hutchinson. Thank you doctor for coming. My three sons graduated from Harding and you do produce some of the best teachers in the state. Thank you. You need to be congratulated. I have two questions. Number one, if we're doing everything right, why aren't our students doing better? And number two, how much tuition
Speaker 124
1:04:32
will your school lose if we pass this? That's two
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:04:37
difficult questions why aren't our students doing better I think it's far
far more than I think the teacher in the classroom is number one but I think the support that student gets other areas other places is extremely important such as parents at home and the I think overall the schools most schools seem to be doing a very good job I don't used to I visited student teachers in the classroom all I know I get feedback I got I have gotten several emails in the past three weeks about students doing an exceptionally exceptionally good job in
their classroom and what they did so I get a lot of those it's rare I ever get a email or letter back this teacher is just really terrible you know I think we've got a lot of good teachers out there but I don't know how to answer that that first question second question is how much tuition would we lose I don't know I've not sat down and put a pencil of that I do know that the non-traditional licensure program that is operated by ADE has taken a lot of
students out of our programs statewide a tremendous number and we have lost quite a lot of tuition revenue from that I think that but we have I've had quite a number of those though have come back and gone through one of our master's program because they weren't happy completely with their performance in the classroom. We get quite a number of students to do that. And I have had nine students contact me out of the Delta who are Teach for
America students asking us if there's any way we could start a master's class at Brinkley. At one time, we offered master's classes at Helena, and that's Brinkley is part of that community college. And they said that they just do not feel comfortable with, they want to extend what they know in pedagogy and teaching in the classroom and work on a master's. So we've been in the process of trying to work on that.
Most of all of our master's programs and specialist programs, and we have a doctorate in leadership, but they're all, most all hybrid classes, and they meet when teachers can meet. They meet on the evenings, but most of them meet on Saturdays, and then the remainder of it is online through Moodle. And so we try to be very receptive to the scheduling of teachers, and I think other universities are doing that also. Representative Stewart, do you have a question?
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:07:26
Yes, I do. Yes, Doctor. You hit on a couple of the things I had written down here, and one of them is
where they've taken, this bill takes out the Department of Education and inserts the State Board. It says the State Board will offer and operate a non-traditional program. And you're familiar with the credentialing, the teacher licensure program or department we have here, and also the size of a school board. Yes. Of our State Board. I don't think that a
part-time board can operate the nontraditional program because it takes lots and lots of work.
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:08:00
Wouldn't you agree with that? I would agree with that 100%. I know in working closely with that nontraditional licensure program in the early years, you know, it was a strain on ADEs. It appeared to me to take that in with not very much additional personnel. And I know then they were able to hire some personnel for that. But I know it is a large program, and it takes a tremendous amount of time. The only way I could see that another group could operate it, say if they just sent it to us at Harding and said,
we want you to operate that, I would think I would need to hire six or eight people to
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:08:41
operate that like it should be. So you feel the state board is not
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:08:46
capable of doing it, just those part-time individuals? I can't speak for the State Board, but I do believe it would
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:08:53
be quite a task for any group to undertake. And I've got one other
thing on page 4 over on line 17. It talks about you have to have three years of employment in order to get your nontraditional program
or nontraditional license and that you can document your credentials by simply writing
a letter. Does your university accept that if I write a letter and say, I've been to all
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:09:23
these schools, and here are my credentials? No, we would not. We have students that try that, but that doesn't work very well. But also, there are two states. I will not name the two states, but we've had students that have gone through the nontraditional licensure program,
and for some reason they came to us to try to work with them and help them out to get their license. They had Arkansas license through the nontraditional licensure program and those two states would not accept that nontraditional licensure license from Arkansas because it was through the state nontraditional program which that was a shock to those students because I don't know what they were told, but those two states, we worked for over a year with those two students with
those two states and they never did get their license in that state. So I'm concerned about any group getting a license in Arkansas that's not following a fairly normal route to a licensure, what they're going to run into when they go to another state. And I know that there have been some states, I'm a licensure officer also, and there are some states that we work for many, many months to get it worked out, so there must be several
states out there reluctant to accept that license into another state, even though it's an Arkansas license. But the information you have to fill out on that sheet is so detailed, and it comes out that, hey, they did something quite differently than what we see in our information on licensure in Arkansas. Okay.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:11:06
And if I could, one follow-up question. You mentioned about they asked you about doing a nontraditional or a MAT program over at Brinkley. That would be a real feasible idea from maybe not your university but some of the other
universities that could put a satellite program over there. And a lot of these MAT programs also do summer classes and night classes. so a person can be teaching and getting the MIT at the same time. Isn't that
Speaker 200
1:11:32
true? That's true. We are going to work on that, and
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:11:36
I'm going to work with Peggy Doss at UAM and be sure that that's not something that would cause her difficulty there at her university. But that's something, as a private institution, we've got a little more latitude
in moving around and doing those things, and we're starting to look at that because we want to serve in the Delta more than we have been. We're working with a co-op at Pine Bluff on some things, too, trying to serve, working with UAPB. We don't want to take anything away from them, but some things that they do not offer at UAPB. But you would think that with
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:12:13
all of our teacher programs in the state, we have the capacity to go over there and teach some MAT programs
Oh, yes. If we have the students there needing that class. That's correct.
Tony Finley
Unverified
1:12:30
All right. Thank you. And I think that MAT would really work well for the Teach for America students, and we use that year, you know, that first year or second year of their teaching there for their student teaching. And we would even look at some of their coursework they've had at Delta State. if it's on the graduate level that might could even transfer into that they could transfer in
a master's we can transfer in six hours so we would certainly be we're willing to work with those tfa students very closely any anywhere in the state also let's go down you have a motion i
Speaker 109
1:13:09
have a motion uh foreclosure 10 minutes on the side that's
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:13:12
proper motion all those in favor say say aye. Aye. Opposed? Leave the
ayes. Have it. Committee this time will continue with the far and against, but it'll be ten minutes on the side.
And thank you for your testimony, sir. Thank you for allowing me. And we still have several signed up, so as you come down to the table, please don't plow old ground, as Ms.
Roebuck says. Just try to, anything new that may be brought to light, let's do that. But we want everybody to have a fair chance. Ms. Hobbs, you have a question? We will save you a 30 seconds to close. That was my question, and I need more than 30 seconds. Okay, we'll give you.
Speaker 76
1:13:50
How much do you want? 30 minutes should do it. Okay. Thank you. That'll be out of their side. That motion was.
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:13:56
It depends on how many are
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:14:01
willing to pass my bill now. All right, okay. Next, we have Mr. Showery speaking for the bill. Would you come down to
Speaker 223
1:14:14
the table and identify yourself with the record? Good morning. My name is Scott Shirey. I'm the executive director of
Speaker 222
1:14:21
KIPP Delta Public Schools in Helena, Arkansas, and now in Blytheville, Arkansas, as well. I come here actually less as a representative of KIPP and more as a representative of students in the Delta.
As a charter school, we have a waiver on teacher certification. So in some respects, we're able to have more flexibility around teacher hiring than the local districts. But I think this is a travesty for children in Arkansas, and I want to bring it home with some very specific examples of how this actually plays out. In 2009, we had a Teach for America teacher, Stephanie Graham, who in her third year teaching had the second-highest scaled scores in the state of Arkansas
on the end-of-course literacy examination. She also had more African-American students pass the AP language test than any teacher in the state of Arkansas. Halfway through her process in Teach for America, after her first year she was strong, she was teaching social studies, I moved her into an English position, and I got a call from the State Department that said, you know, you can't do that, you can't move her because she's got to be in that same subject area two years and she can't get certified if you do that.
I always put interest of children first, and if I had not put her in the English position and we didn't have that waiver, those kids would not have, she would not have had more African Americans pass the AP language than any teacher in the state. That flexibility is critical to us, and anything that's going to allow more teachers to come into the Delta is critical. In 2009, the same year, we had a second-year teacher, Mike Cummins,
who had 97 percent of his students pass the end-of-course geometry exam. He had not yet passed his Praxis III. When you pull in those kind of results, I think it makes the point. And Maisie Wright in her third year had 94% of her 7th graders pass the 7th grade math test. That's 24% higher than the state average. You're talking about the best and the brightest. I also want to respond to Dr. Johnson about our children.
These are exactly the people we want teaching our children. My 6th grade daughter is at our school. She is taught by Teach for America teachers. My wife, who graduated from Central High School in Helena, went to TSU, got her master's from ASU. The only reason she took calculus was because of a Teach for America teacher. She's a huge advocate of Teach for America. She's from the community. We've been there nine years.
This is key. I also want to address the NTL pieces and just greater flexibility in general. So often as a charter school, we're lucky that we can pull in teachers where other schools can't. A couple of years ago, we pulled in a Samantha Legler, who was the girlfriend of a Teach for America teacher. And she had, in her second year teaching, she had 89% of her eighth graders pass the literacy exam. This is 23% higher than the state average. No other districts would have been able to employ her because of the current rules and regs.
Another one, actually a UAPB grad who did not come from the college education. This is a true story. Grew up in the Delta, from the Delta, received a degree from UAPB, came back to Helena, wanted to make a difference. Every other school district looked at him and said, you're not certified, go away. I just wanted to read you his results for the last four years. In 2007, 93% of his eighth graders passed the algebra exam. In 2008, 100% of his eighth graders who took algebra passed the algebra exam.
In 2009, 91% of his eighth graders who took the exam passed the algebra end-of-course exam. And last year, he took the challenge. He said, I'm going to have 100% of my eighth graders take the end-of-course algebra exam, and 86% passed. and you're talking about a course that's traditionally taught at high school and I think it's a travesty that he wasn't able to go to other public schools
and have that same kind of impact in terms of reciprocity we did get a teacher from Mississippi who is not certified in Arkansas last year 76% of his 7th graders passed the end of course math exam at 7th grade and that was higher than the state average as well. I think he deserves to be certified. He's certified in Mississippi. I don't know why he's not here. I've been with Teach for America for a long time.
I did Teach for America in Louisiana. All of my school leaders are a Teach for America alum. We host Teach for America trainings at our school. I teach a Teach for America course on Saturdays, And I can tell you it's of the highest caliber, and the more flexibility we have to bring high-quality people into the Delta, the better for kids. I'm short and brief, but I'll take any questions if people have them. Mr. Pierce, do you have a question?
Representative Bobby J. Pierce
Unverified
1:19:58
Yes, Mr. Chair. Sir, it seems like to me that we're all on the same thing about the kids, but there's a problem with the licensing. I think that's, to me, we're arguing over a completely different thing. I don't think anybody's arguing over the quality of the kids, but it's just the licensing part of it that seems like we're all stuck in the middle right there that's there. So somewhere, I guess, there's got to be some give and take somewhere in there, and you're saying one thing, and I think we're getting from probably the State Department of different things.
But we're all, the kids is what it seems
Speaker 222
1:20:36
like to me right now. Well, and I don't think the ADE has bad intentions, but sometimes when you're on the ground level, you know, the way a plan actually takes place on the ground level comes out differently. And like I said, I mean, we see all the time teachers that come to us because of our waivers, they're able to come to us, and I think that's unfair competition for the public schools.
And we think they deserve that. The kids in the Delta deserve that opportunity at all schools, not just ours. Well, I agree with you, but
Representative Bobby J. Pierce
Unverified
1:21:09
there's got to be rules and regs. I'm not saying take away all
Speaker 222
1:21:13
the rules and regs, but, again, and I don't think that this bill does this, but the provisions in this bill are certainly a huge step in the right direction. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Ms. Hobbs, you have
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:21:29
a question. We've got two minutes left. Am I allowed to ask a question?
You're allowed. Yes, ma'am. You can use the
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:21:36
time up if you want to. Thank you for your testimony, sir. Do you not agree that it should be about the
Speaker 222
1:21:45
kids and the outcomes rather than the licensing process? Absolutely. I mean, that's what it is at the end
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:21:51
of the day. That's how we measure teacher success. Thanks, sir. Thank you for your testimony. Next, we
Speaker 32
1:22:00
have Dr. Kimbrell speak against the bill. Tom Cameron, Commissioner of Education.
I love these non-controversial bills, don't we, Ms. Vaughn? And I hate to have to always come down here. I think everybody's correct, and I do want to make sure we recognize. Ms. Vaughn is also this year's Superintendent of the Year, so we want to make sure that that's there. This goes beyond TFA. You've heard wonderful things about TFA. I'm going to tell you, I'm one of the biggest supporters, and I think Ron will tell you,
Speaker 33
1:22:29
I'm a great supporter of TFA. I think TFA has done what its mission is set out to do in Arkansas, and as a matter of fact, we, the Department of Education and our staff, have actually taken the rules that were currently in place with TFA,
and we streamlined those to the point that the only difference in TFA in this bill, and currently what we have, is the Praxis III. We are right now doing a research study with the University of Arkansas to look at the impact of Praxis III to see if there's a cost-benefit to that. We're understanding from the field that there isn't. So why are we doing it? As a matter of fact, only two people that I understand have failed the Praxis III, and we've had literally thousands take it. So we're trying to determine whether there is a cost-benefit of doing that. So from TFA's perspective, the only thing different in what's in this bill
and what we currently do by rule now, because we changed the rules a couple of months ago, is the Praxis III. So we've taken care, in my opinion, of everything but one little piece on TFA to get them licensed with a standard license in Arkansas. TFA has been in Arkansas almost 20 years, so we're not doing anything to hurt TFA. But what this bill does is it opens up a much larger opportunity that we believe we have to maintain some type of control. I've gone through this bill yesterday with the people who are helping Ms. Hobbs with this bill.
I pointed out several issues that we have at the Department of Education. It doesn't create greater flexibility for the department. In our opinion, it limits the department's ability in doing things for this. For instance, in the very beginning of this, you'll look at reciprocity. The state shall issue a standard teaching license. Then it lists the things that the state board needs proof of. Then it states the state board cannot ask for anything additional. Well, one additional thing that it has there is no license fee.
So we're going to let a teacher who has a license in another state come in and get a standard license without paying the fee that everybody in Arkansas has to pay. And that's what this says. No other requirement can be put upon that teacher applicant. So if I spend five years in Missouri after getting a license to teach in Missouri, yet I don't teach, I can come to Arkansas, get a standard license, not pay the fee, and have no experience whatsoever in that state. So there's no way of knowing whether that teacher can be effective or not
because they've not practiced in that other state. Yet this opens this up for that type of automatic reciprocity for a standard license. That's a concern that we have. In regards to the nontraditional MAT program, let me back up real quick and say one other thing. The timing of this is, in our opinion, early. And I'll tell you why. We have a tremendous effort of a task force that's been put together by the Professional Licensure Standards Board
to do a study of the seven rules around licensures that we have right now to bring back recommendations for changing all seven of our rules to open up licensure to ensure that we can recruit and bring more talent into the teaching field. The state board has made it clear they want more options. They want easier options. And this task force is made up of the players in this state that are involved in this process, and they're asking for recommendations to the state board.
It is my goal to open this up so that we can recruit and get more individuals into this field of education. We have additional concerns with the 40 hours of professional development. If a person comes into this state with a bachelor's degree and they can say, I have this content because I worked in this area and I want to teach in this class, and we don't know what that means, then all I have to do is write a relevance letter saying that my work was relevant to this subject and I can teach that subject.
We have concerns about that particular piece, the highly qualified piece that goes with that, because if you'll look on page 3, lines 33 through 34, it doesn't say a passing score set by the State Board, which would be Praxis 1 or Praxis 2, which we agree to, or content area assessment. Right now, highly qualified requires that you have that content area and that pedagogy both. So right now we're currently, for highly qualified, for no child left behind, you've got to have both.
I believe I understand that right, Ms. Williams? You have to have the content area assessment. So we have concerns with that, and I'm trying to get through this as quickly. The 40 hours required, there's no Praxis 1, no pedagogy required. So what we are concerned about is 40 hours. The first year they're teaching, they're spending 40 hours on pedagogy. Right now we only have 60 hours. Everybody, if you've been in the Senate or you've been in here, groups have spoken against dictating what that professional development would be.
We only have 36 hours available out of the 60 that's not mandated right now by law. So I don't know how you're going to get the 40 out of 36. So that's a concern. These concerns were brought to the group yesterday when it was brought to our attention that this was going to be run, and we asked to look at and work with and try to amend this thing so that we could be supportive and open this thing up. So I would ask that you really consider what this does. It doesn't and isn't going to do but one little thing for TFA, and I'm a firm supporter of TFA.
As a matter of fact, we're adding more money to TFA because we're not going to require them to have the mentoring. So I'm taking the mentoring money and putting it in so that Ron can have more money to have more teachers in Arkansas under TFA. So we're changing those rules and making
Speaker 232
1:28:14
it more accessible to TFA as it is. I'll
Speaker 100
1:28:19
take any questions. Committee questions? Representative Carnot, number first. Dr. Kimbrell, I think
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
1:28:23
one of the questions that was asked earlier to others in terms of the teacher shortage in south and east Arkansas,
are we in fact providing enough teachers in that area currently no sir i don't think we are how well i mean can you kind of give me an idea are we a thousand teachers short 500 teachers short and i do understand and i probably would ask if whether we could get this amended take care of that i i really like to have a level playing field if you're an arkansas person if you have to pay for your license shouldn't you have to pay for it from out of state also Well,
Speaker 33
1:28:59
sir, I can't tell you the number of teachers that we're missing in the Delta.
I know it's a lot. I can tell you that Pine Bluff started the first week of August needing four math teachers. They went to Ron and got four math teachers from TFA. If we had the funds to support 250, 300 more teachers than TFA, we would do it in the Delta to help those schools. We think that that is a quality program. But remember, TFA has such a high standard. But what you're taking is any standard, anyone with a good degree can walk in and get a license now if they can just write a letter of relevance.
So TFA is not what this is just about. This is about if we could ensure the same quality that TFA requires in making sure that those are the only people, if we had what Scott has, the ability to recruit because it is a wonderful thing going on at KIPP. And that's how we got Scott. We got him married to a Helena girl. And that's why we got to keep him in the state. You know, those are the kinds of things that we want to build into the process, and we want to go through this with a lot of understanding and depth in our thinking
and trying to create more opportunities, but keep a quality there that we can ensure there is so that we do have the quality people like Scott does at TFA. Just one further
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
1:30:17
question, Mr. Chair, if I might. But ultimately, though, we still are back to the fact that the school district and the charter school are the ones that make the employment decision. So if they see somebody that they don't feel is qualified, they don't have to hire them. You're absolutely
Speaker 32
1:30:33
right. But sometimes I can tell you in some of these areas, and I've had this said to me, and I've heard it said over here in the corner,
sometimes if you can get a warm body to keep from going in the year two probation,
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:30:50
you get a warm body. Thank you. MR. Next we have Representative Stewart. MR. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Kimbrell. I think what
I understood you say that you have basically addressed all of these questions in some late or recent rule changes? MR. Under TFA. MR. Under TFA. And that you're also looking at addressing the Praxis 3, maybe to take that requirement out. MR.
Speaker 33
1:31:07
Yes, sir. We're looking at that through a statistical analysis of the impact that it's actually
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:31:11
having. MR. Right. And you work with TFA through this process? MR. We've worked with them. They had input. And would you agree with me that the way the bill is written, like you, I don't think it will work, especially where you're mixing and changing the rules and the roles of the State Board and the Department of Education. I think that convolutes the question quite a
Speaker 33
1:31:31
bit. Sir, I think that was just actually the bill writer from Bureau of Legislative Research changing from the department to the State Board. The State Department still will work for the State Board, so that doesn't have any impact.
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
1:31:42
No, sir, that's not an issue. I want to be sure. But you're comfortable with what your rule changes that we can work and go forward and employ as many TFA teachers as we need?
Speaker 33
1:31:52
Under TFA, we believe we've got one piece to go on the TFA piece, but I want to do it with a statistical analysis and not on my gut feeling or what people are telling me. Let's look at the impact that Praxis 3 is having or not having. All right. Thank you. Mr.
Speaker 76
1:32:07
Hobbs, I'm sorry your time is out. We have two minutes.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:32:13
I'm not for your closing, it's not out. I'm for questions, it's out. You can
ask it in just a second, though. You can ask it in just a minute. You're going to have to ask somebody that's for the program, though. Next we
have Richard Abernathy is signed up next to speak for the bill. And, Mr. Abernathy, your side has two minutes and 25 seconds left.
Speaker 242
1:32:47
Recognize yourself, please. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Richard Abernathy, Executive Director of the Administrator's Association. And we do believe that this bill will allow districts to have a little more flexibility in hiring teachers. We have been complaining for several years about the certification process being too restrictive. We're not able to hire the quality people that we want in the district because maybe they missed a particular timeline. I'll give you an example of a district this past year had been cited on their accreditation report because they had a teacher who was very fluent in Spanish but was not able to
teach in Spanish for a variety of reasons. I think that the reason may have been they missed a certain timeline for a nontraditional type program. Those examples are all over the state. We have issues with reproposity from other teachers coming in from the state that we've tried to deal with over the years, and we do think that Representative Hobbs has a good bill that will allow the flexibility. for us getting some quality people in the classroom. That's what it's about. We want quality people in front of the kids. We are a little concerned with the 40 hours being a little prescriptive.
I can tell you that because I believe you're going to see Representative Roebuck bring a bill that we're trying to base our professional development on teacher needs and administrator needs. So that's a little concern, but overall, we do think that we will allow us a little more flexibility in getting quality people in the classroom. I'd be glad to talk more, but I know you're in a timeline. Would you take a question? MR.
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
1:34:13
You bet. Representative Roebuck. Just quick clarification. Dr. Abernathy, you are aware of the Professional Licensure Standards Board Task Force that's studying this issue?
Speaker 77
1:34:20
MR. Yes, ma'am. Do you have representatives on that task
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:34:25
force? MR. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Representative Hobbs, you can
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:34:29
ask your question now. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 242
1:34:34
When was this task force formed? MR. It was recently. I can't give you
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:34:38
exactly. And do you happen to know, once a task force is formed, how long it takes to enact any
Speaker 242
1:34:46
recommendations that they make? We have been concerned with teacher licensure for several years, and we've had some different bills proposed.
Those bills have been modified over the years because we had different groups or task force, whatever, that's going to look into licensure. And bottom line, our hands are still tied. When you have a teacher who you know is good for kids, fluent in Spanish or fluent in math, and we can't get them in front of the classroom because they may have missed the timeline, that's not fair and that's not accurate for kids. So we think this will help us. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:35:18
Chair. Thank you, Mr. Abernathy. Committee, that's the time. It's up for both sides, far and against this bill.
At this point, we'll come back to the committee for
a motion. We need a motion, then you can close. you want to make the motion or are you the only one that's for this bill I hope not sir we have a motion do pass as amended no we don't have an amendment do we motion do pass as amended that's correct okay committee any more discussion from the committee Ms.
Hobbs would you like to close for your bill
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
1:35:54
I would sir thank you very much
let me see where to begin. In my opening statement, and then Mr. Finley also agreed with that when he said the teacher in the classroom is the number one factor in student success. I think you heard one of our representatives say, well, it seems like we're talking about the kids. What about the licensing process? In my opinion, when we're talking about education, the students should be the number one,
they should be the center of the discussion. And this bill is trying to ease the licensing process so we can get those teachers in the classroom. My son, many of you know that my son attended the Academy at Riverdale, my first term here. He attended five months. In those five months, he made more progress When we talk about outcomes, I could see a difference. People at home noted a difference in his reading skills
and in other areas after five months at the academy at Riverdale. He attended the Rogers Public School, a self-contained classroom, up until that point, 11 and a half, well, actually 12 and a half years. He never brought home a school book. Every time we had IEP meetings, the IEP team would change because he had met, even though the experts had said, this is what it takes for him to succeed, this is what he can achieve. He never achieved those. But I saw progress at the academy at Riverdale.
He had teachers that were licensed through the state of Arkansas. They had 21 years of experience in the special ed classroom. But yet I had to bring him, or I did bring him to the academy when he was in the eighth grade for a programming assessment evaluation because these teachers, and Jonathan, quite frankly, was ahead of some of those students in his classroom, but I had one teacher say, I don't know how to teach him. What do you want me to do? This is a teacher, again, licensed by the state of Arkansas
with 21 years of experience. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered these teachers at the Academy of Riverdale were not licensed. Some were going to school, some were in a different field, but they were motivated to teach these kids, and they made a difference in the lives of those kids. I went through the traditional route to teach. I attended colleges and universities in Texas, in Oklahoma, in Missouri, and in Arkansas.
I also was certified and taught science in those states. An imaginary state line did not make a difference in my education nor in how I taught those students. You heard the phrase, I think, open up an opportunity. This bill will open an opportunity to allow superintendents to make the judgments about whom they want teaching their kids. It doesn't say, you know, just because you're going this route, you get an automatic job.
Again, it's up to the superintendent to make that determination. I received from the Department of Higher Education these statistics. I wanted to know how many math and science teachers our public institutions graduated in 2010. If some of you saw headlines recently, math and science, guess what? Our grade is Arkansas was. It was an F. In 2010, in the teaching field, we graduated four math teachers, two biology, two in chemistry,
two in science. We are being challenged with a common core, to take the common core. I've heard, I believe I've heard Dr. Kimbrell say himself, we're concerned about the areas of math and science. This bill will open up those areas. I also work as a chemist in an edible oil plant, and the practical experience helped me be a better teacher in the classroom. This bill would allow that opportunity. I talked to one of the representatives who went the nontraditional route.
I asked him to look at this
bill weeks ago. I had not heard back from him until I heard testimony today that he spoke
against it, or asked questions indicating he was against the bill. This bill was filed March the 2nd. I didn't know until Dr. Kimbrell gave testimony that he had met to ask for amendments. I'm willing to make amendments on those details that really don't matter, but the intent of the bill, and I think the bill itself, is a good one.
I sought advice from experts on how to work it, and I followed their advice. I would appreciate
a good vote, not for me, not for my kids. Oh, by the way, I need to tell you too, my daughter will graduate in May with her MAT.
And like I said, I went the traditional route. When I took those classes, I often thought, how is this going to help me in the classroom? Several years later, I won't tell you how many, I've gotten phone calls from her after she's attended her classes and said, Mom, this is what we did in class.
How is this going to help me be a better teacher? So I hope you will consider that, and again, consider the students, and let's get people in the classroom that want to be there, that want to do like what Mrs. Vaught testified. They want to spend that extra time with those kids to impact their lives. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Hobbs. I'll make a motion for due pass with
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
1:41:47
me. Okay. You have closed for your bill. Do pass as amended on the floor.
All in favor of this bill passing, say aye.
Aye. All opposed, no. No. I believe the ayes have it. Thank you, committee. Thank
you, Ms. Hobbs. Committee, we're going to look at the, we have a fairly lengthy schedule in the House this evening. It looks like none of the bills are, like Ms. Hobbs, non-controversial. But if we get through with the House at around 3, we're going to meet again this afternoon. We need to get some more bills out of here.
So we'll make a call. So listen for the announcements this afternoon, but we're going to plan on meeting 15 minutes after adjournment, unless it's real late. Thank you. Meeting adjourned.
Agenda
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Eddie L. Cheatham
Unverified
Speaker 4
Speaker 15
Speaker 19
Speaker 24
Speaker 27
Speaker 32
Speaker 33
Speaker 39
Representative Karen S. Hopper
Unverified
Speaker 42
Representative Debra M. Hobbs
Unverified
Speaker 70
Tripp Walter
Unverified
Speaker 84
Ron Nurnberg
Unverified
Speaker 89
Representative Les "Skip" Carnine
Unverified
Kathy Smith
Unverified
Speaker 109
Speaker 113
Speaker 44
Representative Johnnie J. Roebuck
Unverified
Speaker 77
Representative Donna Hutchinson
Unverified
Speaker 127
Speaker 131
Representative Tim Summers Chair
Unverified
Speaker 91
Speaker 143
Speaker 146
Speaker 159
Speaker 163
Speaker 122
Speaker 161
Speaker 171
Representative Randy Stewart
Unverified
Speaker 165
Tony Finley
Unverified
Representative Jane English
Unverified
Speaker 200
Speaker 201
Speaker 124
Speaker 76
Speaker 223
Speaker 222
Representative Bobby J. Pierce
Unverified
Speaker 232
Speaker 100
Speaker 242