ALC-Occupational Licensing Review Subcommittee

So All right. Good afternoon everybody. I call this meeting to order. Glad to see everybody here this afternoon for a, it's a fairly nice day out today, not so hot. So we have a few little notes here and one of the things I guess you all and many of you have already had the training on the, the new AB system. Is there anybody in here who hasn't had. So everybody knows how to how to jump on here and how to, OK, very good. The one thing you need to remember though is is that just because you go on here doesn't mean that you're registered that you're here for the committee meeting. You need to sign in, um, outside in the back just as well so that everybody, um, so that you have a record. So, OK, so then we will move right along. And, um, let's see we have 3, We have, without objection, we have, uh, 3, Entities that were scheduled for July and we put them off and they're going to be heard today. So without objection we will hear those. And the first one You'll identify yourself, you'll be recognized. I'm Scott Burry. I'm the director of the plant industries division within the Arkansas Department of Cory seats, Department of Agriculture. Thank you, go ahead. There are 9 types of licenses that are, uh, for today, they are aerial 24D authorization, commercial applicator. Custom permit for 24D private applicator, pesticide dealer, commercial firms, non-commercial applicator. Pesticide commercial applicator technician, and private applicator. So let me ask you a question, which is kind of a feel from what you're doing, but where, where do folks go and get the training for those kinds of licenses. Ma'am. Uh, typically training manuals are provided by the University of Arkansas extension. And uh through those training manuals department to get those licenses. The testing is in through your department for the license. OK, but it's all pretty much on their own. Then there's no real classes that they go to extension, uh, offers some classes and they also offer training manuals. OK, I just it's acquired through the University of Arkansas extension division of Agriculture. I just always wonder how do people, where do they go to get the training for these licenses that they have to have. Occasionally there may be some training sponsored or offered by one of the in-state associations, but primarily it's offered through the UFA. Are there any questions from the committee? Oh, we do have one. Yeah. Representative Kavanaugh, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a real quick question. I noticed where it talks about, have you done an automatic licensure for uniformed servicemen and all of yours is no. Is there a reason why you've not done the process where it can be easier for them to be licensed? We do have the process in place. We just haven't had any request for that. OK. But you do have on each one of them because it says no, but so it's just you're answering no because no one's requested it that's correct, yes, we do have that process available. OK, thank you. So do we need to change that though? If you have the process in place. Versus you didn't have anybody misunderstanding uh when we were filling out that form of the actual question asked. So, um, that could be changed to a yes that's a good question everybody in state government is. Doing that, yeah, you might want to go back and change that. Thank you. Uh, Senator Hill, let's see. OK, thank you all for being here. That's one I make sure clarification on one thing just then. Going through here real fast. That is the only The only thing that's changing as far as your licensing goes, you're just making it known that y'all are, uh, Processing rule of procedure for military members and spouses. Is that correct? OK, thank you. Oh, Representative Ladyman. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm over here. Uh, I got a question about the pilot's license, um, Do you have, what Is there extra training required for for those people over just a pilot's license because what they do is. Very dangerous. Matter of fact, one flew right over my car when I was driving down here. They do a good job, but I mean, it's a dangerous job. uh, is there extra training that is mandated above a pilot's license? Excuse me, I'm sorry. The requirement through our department is that license through, uh, is it FFA I think, and then they have to take the test through us the specific. Category specific applicator license testing through us. So the FAA has a training for that application is strictly to do with the license, the pilot license aspect of that. I don't believe they provide training as far as the application aspect of that, but that is covered in our testing, uh, and our, and the training provided by the, again, by the extension. All right, thank you. OK. Seeing nothing further, thank you very much. Thank you. You might want to make that change though on that because that's. Critically important to us, make sure that you, everybody knows that you are doing that. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for the clarification. With objection, this report stands as reviewed. And now let's see, we have the Office of Secretary of State. If you will identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Matt Pitch, I'm the chief financial officer in government affairs director for the Secretary of State. Uh, Michael Harry, general counsel, Secretary of State. Thank you, may go ahead. Well, I think we're here to answer questions. We've filled out the report after talking to your staff here. Um, Quite frankly, like I mentioned before the meeting, we don't think we have any of these in our, in our staff as a requirement. We didn't knock him in any, so we're open for questions, Madam Chairperson, uh, Representative Kavanaugh. Thank you, Madam Chair. So I just want to make sure we were talking about licensers, you're, you've listed paid canvassers and you have 0. That's licensed. The, they aren't on our staff. The closest we came to having stuff on our staff that needed to be documented as we understand the request. Because we have some notaries within our staff, but they're not listed in the, in the jobs in our in our organization as requiring to be notary, so. I guess I'm confused, Madam Chair. I thought we were reviewing the people that actually licensed these people. I'm not sure. I guess that's why I'm confused because I, I thought that's what we were reviewing was the agency or commission that would be licensing these individuals like a paid canvasser or this one says lobbyist. I mean, Go ahead. I mean we're, I guess, I guess the confusions on our end too. We were under the impression this was asking if we had any of these licensures. On staff Yeah. We do not employ anyone with these licenses. Well, we, we have notaries, but they're not in a notary, do you issue any licenses to anybody? Uh, notaries file their paperwork with us, I guess you could, I guess you could say that when we do issue with our commission. I don't think they have any. Yeah, I'm just confused why they're here. I think we all, if they don't, if they're not a licensing entity. We, we kind of had that too about 10 minutes before this meeting someone said you need to be in front of the committee answering that and the lady that handed it to me has worked with BLR and we don't have any of these in our staff, and we don't issue licensing that we know of. We keep track of who's who you got because I was like, I know we got some lobbyist license somewhere so but anyway. That's our knowledge base right now. OK. All right, thank you. OK, Steven, uh, Representative Meeks. So, so right here in front of you. So, Do you license the paid canvassers in the state, so they come to you to get a license to be a paid canvasser in the state. Do y'all license that? We don't issue licenses for for pay campers. They file with us. We, we have the list of names submitted with what they're approval that they're gonna go do but we don't license anybody. So you don't license anybody to be a canvasser whatsoever, OK, they just pay a fee and the same thing, lobbyists, lobbyists don't get a license from you, so therefore, we don't review them and say, are you worthy of being at that level or anything testing or anything or these are stronger, so, so you're not, you're not issuing any licenses per se, then I, I, my Sure that y'all even need to be here this morning or this afternoon. Best thing I've heard, second best thing I've heard all day. We're glad to have seen you and you're. Oh, hold on just one moment. Let's see. uh, Representative Ladyman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, Matt, we're glad you're back. We're glad to see you again. So hopefully I'm glad to be here. Uh, when I read this, when I, I, I think So, so you identified some categories of groups of people here. So are these the kind of people you deal with, but they don't work for you? So you're identifying people you work with and you're telling us that, hey, that we don't give them a license. There's no statute or anything that we're aware of that we say you're a licensed lobbyist or you're a licensed whatever.ories of people it's in their reporting basis like a lobbyist has a. A monthly or quarterly report campaign filings when they're collecting signatures they have to be on a list so we know who's doing it, but no, nothing with regard to licensing. OK. All right, thank you. OK, Representative Collins. Thank you. And, and just trying to figure this out. So, I mean, it does look like there are different authorizations besides licenses that are supposed to be covered by this subcommittee, um, and you know, you see in that first line authorization type certification for paid canvasser registration for agent for service of process, registration for athlete agent and registration for lobbyists. So it seems like someone has determined that these should be accounted for somehow by some agency and I guess they gave them to you, and if it's not you, I guess my question, maybe it's for BLR is who, because I mean, if we're supposed to be keeping track of these. Then we need to be able to do it through some kind of agency. And so either it's these guys, you know, and I don't think this we staff is the is the issue. I think it's just that we need to find someone who kind of is in charge here I totally understand that. We're more than happy to work with BLR if it is us, then we're more than happy to, to, to comply and give that report to you all, but Will you have specific license I mean requirements for canvassers in state and out of state, volunteers and all that, but you don't issue a license to mention and maybe he should do it on a legal basis, but your comment about, it says certification and not license. If certification means we keep their list and on their name on a list and their phone number on a list and their email on a list. We do have some of that, but we didn't consider that a licensing action. If, if in fact, the legislative body or this committee wants us to do more than just put their name on a list. We aren't doing that now because we don't read that as what's in state statute, but whether it's BLR or you guys somebody should tell us to. Of that, but we don't do that right now. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's just sort of I would request that we kind of take a look at Act 600 from 2019 and, and figure it out. And if it's y'all, it's y'all, if it's not, we'll figure out who it is. Absolutely happy to help. We will work with the bureau to see about that. OK, let's see. Representative Fortner. I get you? Yeah, oh, there it is, uh, Matt, did you think this was casual Friday? I apologized and and Senator Payton offered me his jacket, but I thought I might not look too good if I was wearing someone else's jacket. Again, 5 minutes before this meeting, we thought we weren't on the agenda for today. It's good to see you. I apologize. Thanks, Representative Horner. Thank you, Madam Chairman. OK, Senator Hill. Over here, former Senator Pitch. Looks like you've got the Scott Flippo look today. No comment. Y'all were roommates for a while. I, I guess my question is, basically all the, uh, Secretary of State's office does with all this is y'all collect the money, is that correct? Well, collect the money and we, and we do collect the, the, the paperwork more uh a repository for the paperwork, and we do have all that, yeah. OK, thank you. OK, any further questions? Well, we will work with the uh bureau to get a determination on this. Thank you. So without objection, this report stands as reviewed. Thank you. OK, the, uh, insurance department. The license division. If you identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Amanda Gibson, managing attorney at AID. Thank you. And we proceed. And this is Mary Davis with me. I'll let you tell him your title. Mary Davis, CFO for Andy. There are 7 different license types, uh, in the report before you today. They are claims adjuster insurance consultant, surplus lines broker insurance producer, managing general agent and third-party administrator for a total of, uh, approximately 213,000 individual licenses issued in the last year. Um, I'm not sure what happened here. There are 10 other categories of individual licenses that are regulated by AID that were included in the report that we submitted to BLR, but they are not included in the report, um, that you have in front of you today. Those other individual licenses are certified application counselor, emergency, temporary producer, exchange agent, in-person assistant guide, life settlement broker, navigator. Purchasing group, broker, reinsurance intermediaries broker, reinsurance intermediaries manager and risk retention agent for, um, an additional approximately 55,500 individual licenses issued in the last year. So we will have to check and see why those weren't those 10 were not part of that. Um, yes, uh, like I said, they were included in the report that we were that we submitted, but for whatever reason they're not included in the report that is before you today. OK. All right, thank you. Does anybody have questions here? Oh, Representative Kavanaugh. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, similar question that I had earlier is I noticed that you said no, you don't have any streamlined automatic for uniformed service people. Is that I know you don't have any license or no you don't have a process. And well, we don't have a rule in place for that. Is there a reason why? Uh, it has, has not been requested. Well, I think we passed a code that said you were supposed to do it. Well, I, I, I'm not trying to argue, um, but, but that law is in Title 17 and, and that's not where the insurance code is over in Title 23, but, but we can certainly look at promulgating a rule for that. But I think the intent of it was that all people that are doing lozengers in the state would find a way to expedite, so I would, yeah, kind of request that. And if it's something we need to change to make y'all feel more comfortable, then we just need to do that because I think that was. The actual intent of the legislature. Yes, we can, we can promulgate a rule as such. OK, I appreciate that. And a follow-up is on the fees, had they been reduced. At all. Arkansas, um, is one of the lowest or the lowest, uh, licensing fees for, for insurance-related licenses in the entire country. OK, but we also passed a law last session. They said, if you had a fun balance over over 3 years then you were required to reduce your license fees up to 95% to give that money back to the licensers. Where's your fund balance and have you looked to make those reductions. So we don't actually keep our fund balance and, um, Every biennium, whatever our phone balance is, is swept to general revenue, which is managed by DFNA. So we only keep the enough appropriation to run the insurance department. So if we reduced fees, I guess it would be $1 for dollar reduction in what is, OK, so they're sweeping and taking your fund balance to GL or GR, OK. Did not know that, but thank you. Thank you. Uh, Senator Petty. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for being here. uh, just because we've seemed to have had some significant Events, wind and otherwise, and, and I've heard a lot of discussion about this, uh, but first, before I get to that question, the 28,000, uh, Number of individuals regulated. You're, are you saying we have 28,000 adjusters are licensed adjusters and just, just in general as, as word on the street is, is if somebody, you know, if Senator Pinzo here has a damage on one of his properties and I go to help him and look at it, then I'm in, you know, the fear is I'm in the business of adjusting even though I'm not, uh, really an ad gesture. Can you expand on those situations and, and how we can keep people, you know, moving along and those that have knowledge can help without going through the license or process and Uh Well, a public adjusting, um, the insurance department does not have jurisdiction over that issue because that is considered the unauthorized practice of law. So it's the Arkansas Supreme Court Committee on the unauthorized practice of law who has jurisdiction over public adjusting because they consider it the unauthorized practice of law. Being an adjuster is considered the unauthorized, OK, being a public adjuster when you have not been issued a license by the insurance department. All right, so that's another, another department. And then the second one kind of along the same lines when we're talking about consultants, uh, uh, and it's your 2nd, yeah, your 2nd item there when they're talking about consultants along the same line, is that a different, uh, section? Or is, could I be his, uh, pro bono consultant and not be practicing law. You have to be licensed to be an insurance consultant, uh, the, the, the definition is that the uh consultant councils and advises a consumer about his insurance needs and his coverage for a fee. So, um, you know, you do have to have that license in order to. Council, a consumer on, you know, what type of insurance coverage, you, you think he needs, he or she, the last one, the last, uh, word there aura gesture is really kind of what I was focusing on there, um, if I'm, if I'm Knowledgeable about construction matters and we can say, you know, Senator Penzo, it looks like they missed 4 windows that need to be replaced. The fear out in the street is that's unlicensed, uh, practice of law or whatever and it just seems a little bit extreme, is this also, this, this section is specifically is that also Supreme Court, uh, related consultant. I have not Heard it being discussed in in those terms that it might be the unauthorized practice of law, of course, you know, we don't have jurisdiction over that, over that issue. Last question, I'm sorry. Um, So do you hear? Or maybe it, it's just the people that I'm around, but do you hear that topic come up, uh, in terms of whether or not an adjuster is not really an adjuster, but they're, they're being accused of, of practicing law, uh, or any, I mean, does that topic come up? Do you sanction folks for doing that or what, what's the nature of, of the types of situations, uh, that that happens. Yeah, we, we don't because the the unauthorized practice of law. has jurisdiction over public adjusting. Would you refer them if you heard that that was happening was you refer them to someone else? If we hear that that's happening, we would refer that potential complainant to the, uh, to the committee on the unauthorized practice of law to file their complaint there. And have you done that? We get a handful of of those complaints from time to time at not very often. OK. Thank you. Senator Hill. Over here. I want to go back to what, uh, Representative Kavanaugh was talking about a while ago on the, uh, expedited military licensing, whether it be Section 17 Group 23, whatever you said a while ago, so y'all didn't apply to y'all. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if you go ahead and get that done now. Otherwise, I'm going to run legislation in January. Yes, yes, um, like I said, I was not trying to argue. There had been a question as to whether or not, you know, it, it did, but we can, we can certainly promulgate that role. That would be greatly appreciated because it was meant to be because I ran the bill. OK, thank you very much. Thank you, Senator. Representative Ladyman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, is someone or staff or BLR could tell us why those 10 licenses that they had on their original report were not on here. I mean, did it go to somebody else? Were they not really licensed? Could they answer that question now? OK, we think that the portal left it off when we generated when they generated the final report. So we'll have to go on the portal and we'll send it out to the committee members. OK, thank you. OK. Representative Duffield. Oh, OK. All right. Any other questions from the committee? All right, seeing none, thank you very much. We, without objection, this, uh, report stands as reviewed. Thank you. OK, moving right along here, the You'll identify yourself, you'll be recognized. Matt, you have more Department of Health? Pamela Tanner, director of the Department of Health. That's exhausing board. Go ahead. So thanks for your time today, Ms. Tanner is the director. She's going to give a quick overview and we'll take any questions y'all have. OK, so to kind of give an overview of our board, we're a small board, we're compiled of 3 licensed dietitians, uh, to members of the public. Our purpose is to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public. Uh, so we accomplished that by providing the licensing and regulations, um. For those that are engaged in the dietetics Practice Act, um. So we meet approximately 15 times per year to review applications and discuss any, uh, situations that come up and then our busiest time of the year, we, we increased meetings with our board, um, because we actually licensed two-thirds of our dietitians within the state of Arkansas during the month of November. Currently we have 1200 active licensed dietitians in the state of Arkansas. Uh, we've been working diligently to make, um, the positions of the licensed dietitian, more appealing to the members in our state, um, by working to provide an online payment system. Uh, we've updated our laws and rules, uh, through our last legislative session to include the military as what has been discussed here today, um, but to also include emailing of notifications and license cards to make it easier for a dietitians. Uh, we provide a provisional licensing which allows a. Educated. Uh, person that has completed their required education for licensing but has not passed their RD exam to use a provisional license for 18 months and work under a licensed dietitian, uh, so they can get to practice while they prepare to pass their RD exam, so they become a registered dietitian before we licensed them in the state of Arkansas. Um, we also reduced the fees in 2023 by 95%, uh, to help. With the funding to the licensees, um. We've provided educational sessions in person and virtually to some of the local colleges, uh, and we're continually looking for new ways to provide outstanding service to not only our dietitians but also to the public they serve. We have questions. Seeing none, thank you very much without objection. Thank his report stands as reviewed. Thank you. Time, let's say next, um, the Department of Labor and Licensing boiler inspector division. If you will identify yourselves, you'll be recognized. Lacey Kirchner counsel for the department? Lindsay Moore, director of code enforcement. You may proceed. Good afternoon. Thank you for having us here today. We're here to give you your occupational license report for the boiler section. We have basically 4 groups in which we license installers, repairs, inspectors, and the operators. With that, I can take any other questions. Let's see, we have a few questions here. Uh, Representative Collins. Thank you. I guess, um, on these first two similar questions to those that have been raised before, um, you have 0 individuals regulated. Is that, uh, I, I guess you're probably not referring to staff members because I see that you have other. Areas where you do have individuals regulated, maybe you just don't have any individuals regulated. And secondly, um, you don't have automatic licensure to, uh, uniformed service members, curious about both of those two. I representative Collins, we actually do not license either one of those, um, entities, the coal mining blaster certification or the open cut and quarry mining blaster certification, and that was actually, um, housed over at the Department of Energy and Environment. We discussed with staff prior to submission of this report that we would leave those two items blank because they are not regulated by us, our department only actually regulates. Um, mining safety training classes and then the issuing of blasting permits, which are required before a company can conduct surface blasting operations, but again, that's also not under our boiler division that is under the separate, uh, division of labor. So we should just deem these first two to be not part of your report. Got it. Thank you. You're welcome. Representative Kavanaugh. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, I notice if I go in and I add up all the fees, have y'all reduced your fees based upon fund balance? No, ma'am, our fees are, are rather low, low nationally. We, uh, don't even carry a fund balance of right at one year. Of reserves OK, that's gonna lead me to my question when I add up all the licensure that you've listed here and based on their annual license fee. You're only bringing in 1,010,250, but you say that your annual expenses are $786,225. Where's the rest of that money coming from? That comes from the certificate fees that we issue upon inspection to show that it's either in compliance or non-compliance to show that it's safe to operate. And how much are, I mean. That's a lot of fees. Ma'am, they run anywhere we have some inspection fees as well. Uh, they range from $7 to $18. Our certificate fees run from $10 to $90. That's, and that also depends on the type, whether it's an inspection for new installation or annual inspections. We use also third-party insurance companies to perform inspections. There, we do not charge any fees for those inspections. I'd like to request that you send us a list of the fees and how much you're collecting annually on those fees. I'd like to see that information if you could get it to staff, I'd appreciate that. Also, it puts out that your expenditure is like $717,000. I'd like that same information, please. Thank you so much. You bet. Any further questions? OK, see, then we, we, if you will get that information to the staff, we'd appreciate it. Yes, ma'am, we will. So without objection, this report stands reviewed. Thank you. And let's see, uh, the Department of Health. Center for local. Local hill. Good afternoon. I'm Laura Shu, general counsel for the Department of Health. Craig Smith, attorney for Arkansas Department of Health. Rick Mayhan, Arkansas Department of Health Director of Plumbing and natural gas. Thank you may proceed. Um, as I said, I'm the director of plumbing natural gas for the Arkansas Department of Health also served as the executive secretary for the committee examiners. Uh, we issue the plumbing and related licenses, uh, currently we issue 17 different types. I see questions here. Representative Kavanaugh, uh, thank you, Madam Chair. Um, just to kind of educate myself. What's the difference between a governmental maintenance plumber, a hospital maintenance plumber. OK, governmental maintenance plumber works for uh. Hey, uh, governmental entity to do maintenance and, uh, just as the name implies, they have a little more, uh, experience and background and plumbing and are able to perform duties like replacing water heaters and, uh, a little deeper, uh, than a hospital maintenance person. Hospital maintenance are usually supervised by master plumber or a hospital maintenance supervisor who is very experienced in what he's doing. He simply oversees their work. OK, so why can you not just have a plumber that works for, I mean, why do you need a. Well, why do we have one, I guess is what I'm asking why do we have a, a extra layer of lenger if we just have a plumber, they're a master plumber or a are restricted licenses though, so they're a little easier to get. They're a little lower in fees and, uh, Uh, they're restricted to only working at that hospital, if they go to another hospital, they can still have the license, but they have to change, uh, the registration with us. Well, it shows that you have no licensed maintenance plumbers. You have 0 license maintenance plumbers. When's the last time you had one I don't think we've ever had one. Well, I don't think you need that then if you've never licensed anybody, so maybe that's my suggestion is we get rid of that lozenger I and the governmental maintenance plumber, why is that needed differently than a regular plumber, well, uh, a governmental maintenance plumber works strictly for say a housing authority, uh, uh, uh, Government subsidized apartments, uh, they, uh, It seems to be they're a little more red readily available than than a, you know, plumbing company or an independent plumber. They could certainly hire a plumber, but this is an option that they have in addition to that governmental maintenance plumber, less qualified than her It seems to be they're a little more red readily available than than a, you know, plumbing company or an independent plumber. They could certainly hire a plumber, but this is an option that they have in addition to that governmental maintenance plumber, less qualified than a regular plumber. He's not allowed to do installation of new plumbing. He can, he can repair almost anything, but if you're going to uh add a wing to the building, you need to get a plumbing contractor in there to to take care of that and have y'all reduced your fees at all based on your phone balance? No, ma'am. Our fund balance is woefully low with. We do not, uh, we're actually in the red by the end of this year. And why is your fund balance low? Uh, well, our fees were established in 1988 and have not changed. If you wouldn't mind, if you would get me the same thing I asked the last one, give me your face structure. I certainly would be it's what the fees are, I mean, and what you're, you might collect on like a fine or something if you collect any of that and what your expenses are, I would appreciate that. Thank you. Representative Collins. Following up on the different types of plumber licenses, are there any situations where a plumber would have to get multiple licenses overlapping licenses. None other, well, no, uh, a master plumber would be licensed to do almost anything. Uh, now, there are some certifications he may get. Uh, we have the back flow certifications, uh, which requires a special training course, uh, backflow prevention devices you have to be trained on how, how they work and how to work on them and uh uh it's, it's just, you know, um, a different, and it's part of our list of license. And we charge no fees for that license. Understood. I guess, um, if you guys could just double check and determine whether or not any of these plumber categories, not backflow, I understand that's a bit different, but if there's anyone who has multiple licenses of a master plumber and his And we charge no fees for that license. Understood. I guess, um, if you guys could just double check and determine whether or not any of these plumber categories, not backflow, I understand that's a bit different, but if there's anyone who has multiple licenses of a master plumber and is licensed to do anything, gas, natural gas, he's, uh, uh, any phase of plumbing whatsoever, Jarman plumber can do the same thing under the supervision of a Master plumber So there would never be a situation where somebody works in both hospital maintenance and governmental maintenance and that, that the master plumber license supersedes all that. OK, so no master Palmer has to get either one of those. Absolutely not. All right, thanks. Our representative Meeks. Uh, right here in front of you. Oh, yeah. Um, so I'm gonna kind of follow up on uh Representative Kavanaugh's last question, um, in here, it said you had an income of a little over $770,000 your total expenditures were 8 and roughly $30,000. Um, it said that, uh, you had to, uh, other associated programs were required to satisfy the net loss. What were those other programs? Just curious because that's what $50,000 roughly where. Come from, I, I believe that was uh plan review, but I actually didn't do that transfer. It was done by our account uh by the accounting department so. Was that done within the department as a whole then, within the department, so, so what the Department of Labor's basically they ate that extra $50,000. Is that? Yes, sir. That's my understanding. Yeah, the Department of Health, we can, we can update that and get that to you to confirm how that was done. OK. All right, I'm just kind of curious how that, uh, how that all happened and then it sounds like that maybe if y'all need to maybe tweak your fees a little bit to better match there. All right. Thank you, ma'am. Sure. OK, so I have a question here again, I kind of like, what is, what is the, uh, how does somebody get to be a water and sewer service line installer. What you have to do to do that. You don't have to do much. It's if you've got some experience in that experience, you might put in septic systems, you might, uh, help someone, primarily someone, uh, with a backhoe can get this license. With a backhoe, if they've, uh, you know, because the only thing you're really doing is digging, digging the lines and uh ditches and, and installing uh water. Or sewer lines in the yard. This is not it, you know, this is from the meter to the uh plumbing, uh, the building at the plumbing, so there's no plumbing inside the building. So does this demonstrate their competency too. Uh, well, they would take an exam. Do the licensing. They would take an exam if they provided us some information that it or is it just based on what your activity a written application and uh and show us some, some propensity to be able to do this, and we were, we sat down, we give them an exam, they take an exam uh Department of Health and if they pass that exam, they're competent to do this work. OK, thank you. Let's see, Representative Ladyman. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm over here. Um, the, uh, $50,000 loss that you had, uh, is that a one-time event or, uh, have you lost, how many years have you lost money or it's been declining every year of the past few years now, it's uh. Declining, so you lost more last year fees, our expenditures are yeah, have repeatedly been increasing our, our expenditures have been increasing our fees have been static. Uh, we get a few more plumbers every year, but we're, you know. Uh, the, the income is not increasing as much as the expenditures. All right. Thank you. As I said, it was 1988 when our fees were set. It's been a lot of change. Senator Johnson. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, I appreciate Senator Gilmore telling me how to teaching me how to turn this thing on, so I mean, I appreciate that, Madam Chair, um, on these backflow preventer testing technician and. Prevention repair man. A lot of people on there, 960 on one and, and 654, uh, but there's, there's no fee. No, sir. A fee was never established for it. Well, It's a lot of people, I guess when you, you get more people in the profession when you don't charge them a fee. I don't, I don't know that I can extrapolate that, but it's at least worth worth looking at what is the requirement for these inspections? Are they annual? Are they biannual, or they some other period of time? Are you referring to the backflow printers and this is on on potable water, as I understand. Uh, the manufacturers recommend Your inspections and testing. OK, we do not have that in our code, so that's, that's just, that's the manufacturer, that's the industry standard, and that's the manufacturer's recommendations. We do refer to the, uh, uh, defer to the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions in our code, but we, uh, don't specifically set a date. OK, that's a little surprising to me. I've had an instance where I was. I shouldn't say I was told. I would say I was informed that it had to be inspected. Or the city would turn the water off. And um, this was a few years ago. I'm not gonna get into which city, but, uh, uh, you know, when people speak with the color of law and there is no law that it, it kind of causes my, my ears to perk up a little bit on it. So, so you've answered the question adequately. I will do research around that, but if you got, you know, 960 people in one group and 654 and another, you know, maybe, maybe we need to look at A little bit more carefully I would be glad to bring that to uh to the legislation, um, I will want to make one thing clear now in the code in the earlier code 2006 code, there was a date in there one year uh one year then that might have been that long ago. I'm not sure in 18 because that really wasn't uh. Uh, you know, that, that would have been what the manufacturers required and we did not feel that we should be the committee's time, Mr. Mayhan. I'll be back in touch with you on this. Thank you for helping elaborate on that. So let me ask this question then, so if you have a backflow in your, in your yard, which everybody's required, I guess, to do. Then who is responsible for inspecting that? Is it the homeowner or the who is the responsibility of the homeowner to maintain it as it's supposed to be maintained. In most municipalities expect those to, uh, they do expect them to be. Uh, Inspected or tested at the homeowner's expense. So, so a homeowner would call you and and you would go out and inspect that or somebody would. That's right they would call a backflow tester. We, we published a list of uh, of names and phone numbers of those who test and repair back devices. OK, thank you. Let's see. Representative Cozart. Thank you, Madam Chair. I heard you talking a while ago about Master plumbers and which, you know, they, they can do just most anything. But also specialty gasses such as uh nitrous oxygen and stuff like that that a dentist uses, is that a different training? It's not a license, but is that a different training that a master plumber has to go through to do that now that would, of course we don't have anything to do with that. That's uh there is a med gas license or ser certification, uh, that's usually got And through a, uh, the gas providers, uh, oversee that, uh, much in the way propane. Oversees their installers and uh uh they uh I think there's a welding course that goes along with that. I know a lot of, uh, certified welders also out at Medgas last year. Uh, follow up, please. Uh, so we were talking about backflow, wouldn't you agree that most plumbers that are master plumbers have a backflow license also. They do, but they don't have to. Yeah, I know, but most all of them do. I could say when you see most of these owner where there's no fees that mostly comes from your other players whether they have that, uh backflow license from us or not as a plumber, uh, they are not required to actually have that license, but as it costs them nothing, they uh. Well, in, in my city, uh, city always comes out and inspects that also when you're doing a waterline, uh, especially for a sprinkler system so you have no backflow. So there's a lot of different checkpoints on that. Thank you, thank you, Madam Chair. Senator Petty. Thank you, Madam Chair, over here. So just a curiosity thing, looking at the uh Apprentice plumber and the journeyman and the uh master, that doesn't seem like a very many plumbers for the state of Arkansas, and I'm assuming they probably work in other states as well. Is that number down from, uh, historical numbers. It's up a little, but it doesn't climb a lot, OK. And, and so if, if. The master plumbers who can do basically anything. Uh, or $200 a year and an apprentice is at $25 a year. What exactly is done at your, uh office that. Requires the additional $200. We talk a lot about affordability of housing and, uh, we know a plumber's gonna have to have this, then they're gonna have to have a, a, a license probably in most cities they're going to get their plumbing, uh, uh, there as well is what's the difference between $200.25 dollars in terms of, of the work involved in your office. About the work involved in our office, so. With those fees, we have 8 field inspectors that, uh, cover the whole state. Uh, they just have cars to that, and, and gasoline bills and uh uh we also, um. Training the municipal inspectors, we do annual training for every one of those annually and, uh, we also maintain a board with that, the Committee of Plo examiners. And our staff. Follow up. So when you say you train the municipal plumbers, are you talking about plumbing inspectors, inspectors, are you talking about the city of Little Rock or the city, you train those and do they pay for that training? $25. They pay $25 that's their license fee, yes, sir, but the cost of that should. It should have that part of what you do should be self-sustaining instead of being subsidized potentially if it's, I, I'm not saying it's subsidized, but it sounds like $25 for annual training, uh, may not be enough, whereas, uh, $25 or $200 for a master plumber may be too much. Texas is. 450 for a master diploma. So ours is relatively low and, uh, as the master plumbers get most of the benefits from. What we do Uh, they pay the largest portion and I would, I would, I would agree if, if Texas is 450, but I, uh, most of my experience in Texas has been that it's going to be more expensive in Texas. And if we're trying to keep things affordable, then I'm, I'm, that's why I'm asking. Thank you. Uh, let's see, Representative Brown. No. Representative Ladyman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, OK, back on the, uh, backflow preventers, no pun intended there, but, um, I'm, I'm a little confused on the frequency. Uh, I, I used to have to pay these guys and get these certifications at two large plants in Fayetteville and Jonesboro. And in both cases, I think it was a year, was the renewal, but I thought the municipalities could set those because it's their water systems. The frequency Is that true? Or who, who sets the frequency? They, they do the water purveyors. The water providers. OK, so that could be a municipality or whatever. OK, thank you. Representative Cozart. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a statement to, uh, what the talk has been about, about fees here today if you don't mind, uh, not a question for them, but just really a statement I think maybe on their behalf. The reason a lot of these fees are higher, the plumbing. Uh, part of, of the licensing is probably one of the most stringent and have to be regulated because it is for your health and safety. So a plumber that has to pay a little more because he has to pick up all these other things to go along with it is not unnecessarily high. It's just for safety. They have to do a lot of work in their office and also with the, uh, apprentices, making sure that they're getting trained and then up to a journeyman where they have to go to school or they cannot work for that plumber. They have to have all that. Training, so they have a lot of paperwork they do in that office and I'm just speaking for them a little bit. I'm not trying to support them wholly, but, uh, partially. Thank you, Madam Chair. say no further questions, um, 00, we got one more. I'm sorry. Yeah Representative Ladyman, thank you, Madam Chair. I want to add something to what Representative Cozart said. I think it was brought up about hospital plumbers at hospital and whys category and all that. Uh, they're dealing with water that goes into the operating rooms and, uh, you know, it's, it's life or death. I mean, you can get contamination from that. So that definitely needs to be a separate category because they're dealing with really pure water there, so I just wanted to add that on. OK. No further questions. So then without objection, this report stands as reviewed. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. department will follow up with those that as requested. Thank you. Now let's say the state board of registration for foresters. You identify yourselves, you'll be recognized. Thank you, ma'am. Corey Ses, Department of Agriculture. Darren Darren Spanks, deputy state forester, Arkansas Department of Agriculture. Candace Schnoebn, uh, Arkansas Department of Agriculture. Thank you. Go ahead. The classification of registered forester, uh, governs those engaged in the practice of forestry, uh, within the state of Arkansas, uh, in anticipation of, uh, Representative Kavanaugh's question, I will say that while, and this may be semantics to an extent, while there is not automatic licensure for military members as a registered forester, there is a reciprocity, uh, and the purpose. Or the rationale behind that is that the requirements to become a registered forester include a specific degree plan, uh, Potential of work experience as well as passing an exam. Representative Meeks. Thank you all for, uh, for being here. Uh, my, my question is that kind of gonna be related to uh looking at your survey responses. Um, you know, the first one with consumers be at risk if we didn't have this? No. Have there been any specific instances of harm? None. Have there been any complaints? None, um, from an authorized or authorized, um, were there any denials? No, um, so I guess my kind of goes to my question, do we still need to license this occupation and I think you said that this is a degree, you have to have a degree in order to do this is that degree Not sufficient to provide the protections that we might normally want to have in place, you know, John Smith is a degreed forester, so he's going to provide you a better service than, you know, I would, who, you know, I have a garden in my backyard. Uh what protection or benefits does this license have for the citizens. Just, just, uh, protects, uh, landowners, um, so, uh, nobody can claim to be just, you know, anybody off the street can claim to be a register for a forester and operate in Arkansas. Good in their degree. Serve that purpose potentially. Um, so for example, you know, I'm, I'm, I've got a master's degree in forestry versus somebody who does not. Um, we, we require, uh, continue education, keep, uh, uh, one hour ethics education every year also I mean, I'm not trying to be belligerent here, but if it's not necessary if we're just having this license just to have this license then it's just more paperwork and headache and not for not only the licensees but for the department to try to keep up with it. And if it's not really serving a functional purpose. Should we consider maybe phasing it out. That, that's the question I'm asking, uh, and obviously I'm not going to be the one who makes that decision, but maybe something to consider going forward. So he may be saying that somebody could just go out and and. Or you might be saying somebody could just go out and say, I'm, I'm a forester. And they really aren't. They don't have the background and experience and and there's nothing to show that they do have that. And you, and you'd like to have that. You have to have a degree and so on and so forth. We'll look into this. Alright, any other questions? Oh, Senator Hill. Oh, got a few. I'm going to defer to Centra Gilmore, then I'll get back in the queue. Oh, OK. All right. Senator Gilmore. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, um, thank you for being here. Do, do we have what's called best best management practices for forestry in the state of Arkansas. I think I know the answer. Yes. OK. And, and are those practices outlined as to what foresters should follow? And are they not trained on those practices so as to reduce liability. Rob, yeah, we have continuing education and uh a lot of the, uh, training that we do involve and those and those BMPs again help make sure that, you know, the land's being managed properly, making sure that you know we aren't, we're controlling fires that could, you know, you know, cause massive forest fires, things that impact the land, things that cost, uh, landowners their timber. I mean, there's, there's a lot of things that go into, uh, managing properly the land and so if you're trying to mitigate risk. You're trying to reduce, uh, liability, you want someone who's going to be following those best management practices. Is that not correct? Thank you very much. Senator Hill. Thank you, Madam Chair. If you would back up on the uh the military part as far as the licensing go, and I, I didn't hear everything you said, so I'd like for you to repeat what you said on that. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. Uh, Because of the stringent requirements for the certification, a degree plan, depending on, uh, the degree and the scenario behind that, there may be a practical experience, work experience involved, as well as passing an exam. There's not an automatic licenger for military members, but there is a reciprocity provision that is, that is, uh, included. OK, so your reciprocity will say is from Mississippi has a timber estate that would be real similar to the state of Arkansas. So at that point, I, I don't like the way you're, you're wording that personally because we're, this process is supposed to be expedited for our military personnel in the state of Arkansas. I'd like for y'all to look at how you're wording that and relook at that. Yes, sir. Thank you Representative Kavanaugh. Thank you, Madam Chair. So y'all are just collecting the fees. There's no penalties. Nobody's getting penalized for anything. If they're found doing something incorrect. There can be penalties that, yes, uh, uh, a common, well, I wanna say common, uh, but. One thing would be the practice of forestry without being a registered forester, and there may be certain penalties or, uh, Criminal actually consequences to that if if someone is determined to be practicing forestry without the registration. OK, but I mean, I'm, I'm trying to figure out, and I understand that education and they need to understand so we can control things, but I'm trying to understand just exactly what they get for this licener. I mean, I'm just trying to figure that out, the reason I say that is we used to be required to license new car sales people. We paid a fee and got absolutely no support. And so we did away with that licenser because it was out of date there was nothing, we were just taking money from people, but. What are they getting for this licenger? I mean, there's, we're not. How are we monitoring people to know that they're doing something they shouldn't be doing and what penalties are we collecting if they're saying that they're a forester or not. So that there's a a a a complaint application that, that they can be submitted to the Richard Perit and, uh, And there's, there's a process for and um. How many complaints have you received? When's the last time you received a complaint? There was a hearing, I believe, last month with regards to the. On the practice of forestry without the the certification. OK, and what was the outcome of that? There was an agreed outcome, uh, it was involving essentially advertisement and the committee agreed, uh. The, the person, the Individuals or the entities that were Holding themselves out as registered foresters agreed to change their advertisements and their solicitations and the forestry registered foresters committee, uh, agreed with that resolution. And was there a penalty collected? There was not. OK, and I, I, I'm getting to this because you're saying you collect your, you collect 23,000. You have a 5000 year expense and you have a reserve balance of 124,000. That's going to be way over your 3 year balance. Have you reduced your fees? We have not, but we have begun the discussion on looking at that actually the, the law was pretty. obvious that you have to if you've got a 3 year fund balance. I know this because I ran it. So I mean, it's not something for you to look at, it's something for you to do that you can, it gives you the latitude that you can reduce it up to 95%. You don't have to go to the 95, so he can keep that, but you're well over the three year balance, so that's something that you need to be doing and. I'm just gonna have to have some conversations because I don't really quite understand what y'all are giving these people that your license for. Thank you. Representative Brown. Madam Chair, um, thank you for being here today. So, um, for some, Some of us Uh it's particular. So a forester is way more, they have, they have training, they have education, they have skills, and they might be hired by somebody who is a tree farmer. Is that correct? So not every tree farmer would be considered a forester. You would hire a forester to advise you on how to manage your property. That is correct. It's, it's above and beyond someone that may be cutting timber. It is a professional that can, uh, advise a landowner on how to best manage his timber, uh, For whatever his outcome or his goal, you know, how many trees per acre or how close they are or how old they are, what the soil is like and things like that. Thank you. Representative Meeks. All right, I'm back here again, uh, based upon some of your, your responses. Is it illegal for someone to practice forestry in the state that is not licensed to do so. Yes, sir. It's a Class A misdemeanor. All right, so you're not allowed to be a forester unless you've got this classification. You are not allowed to engage in the practice of forestry without, yes, OK, and, and, and that practice is defined in law, what that is and or is it just somebody, you know, I can, I claim to be a forester, so I've run afoul of the law or is it, you know, you're doing certain things that you shouldn't be doing. I'm just trying to help understand is that, you know, because when you said that, you know, this company was, uh, you, you slapped him on the wrist because they were saying they were registered when they weren't. I just want to make sure that this isn't a case of, you know, I've got the credential versus you don't have the credential and you're not, you're, you're either in the club or you're not in the club, you kind of see what I'm saying. I obviously I know there's a lot more to it than that, but I think you get the gist of what I'm asking. Yes, sir. Um, I'm sorry, what can we reach that question, so there are specific, there are specific outlines within the law or within your rules, the state as a only a forester is allowed to do this in Arkansas. Yes, sir, and the, uh, the statutes do specifically define what the practice of forestry is and, uh. Identify that the practice of forestry can only be. Uh Done by a registered forester. OK, so, so because of that law, that gives gives a certification a reason to exist because uh without that certification under law, you're not allowed to do certain things. Correct. OK. All right. That, that's what I mean, that justifies the existence of the need to have this. All right, that's what I was after. All right, thank you, sir. No, I see. No further questions. Without objection, this report stand is reviewed. Next we have the Arkansas State Police You all will identify yourselves, you'll be recognized. Captain Dustin Morgan with the regulatory division, State Police. Lieutenant Jay McAllister, uh, regulatory division, State Police. Jenna Castleberry, um, deputy fiscal officer. He may proceed. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, committee members. Uh, you have before you the occupational license review of a training instructor for the Arkansas State Police, uh, PI security section. The Arkansas State Police is statutorily charged with duties to administer the rules and licensing of private investigators, uh, private security agencies, alarm systems companies, polygraph examiners and, uh, voice stress analysis examiners. And we're happy to answer any questions. So I'm a representative makes. Thank you. Uh, thank you all for, for being here and for your, your patience sitting through all this, uh, the question I have is on your, um, fund balances looks like you're collecting about $400,000 according to your response here, uh, annual expenses are about $500,000. You have a carry forward balance in order to cover that, that deficit and I guess my My question is, it says you have 20. Individuals or agencies or companies, I guess, that are licensed to do this. Um, And just doing some quick math here. You had $400,000 worth of collections on 20 individuals, am I? Honey Yes, I'm gonna refer to, uh, to Janet to answer that, but, uh, the, the short answer is that, uh, would I be correct in saying that we're unable to separate exactly what we're, uh, collecting just specifically on this credential. So this is going to be for all 29 licenses that we we issue in this section. OK, OK. OK, all right, so this is an aggravated aggregated among all those different licensers, OK. Yes, correct, Representative question. All right, thank you. Senator Gilmore. Well, and neglected to turn my button off, but I was basically going to make the point that they just said. I thought I understood it that way, that it's the aggregate total. So, thank you. OK, seeing no further questions, this, uh, without injection, this report stand is reviewed. Thank you for being here and. We will meet again on Thursday, September 19th at 2 o'clock in this room and say no further