Judiciary Committee- House & Senate

Because. Because it's a long agenda and it's a Friday afternoon. Of unusual for us we're gonna try to get started of right on time. and we are going to start With the prayer and pledge of allegiance but before we do that. I would ask everyone to stand anyway center Ballenger will be lenis in prayer and then represent to Richardson immediately after that will lead us in the pledge of a before that. Of a willingness to just have a moment of silence for officer Travis see Wallace and his family and all the officers who work with him and or or enforcement officers in general he was shot under the gun bill battle with hello was only of with the sister suspect from another shooting. Total moment assaults please. That. And. Which is. One. I will. For all. Thank you all for being here. I am going to. Move to city and come back to be so we're going to go to consideration to adopt the October first. Of meeting minutes. No one had a chance to look over the minutes and so can somebody make a motion to adopt them. Got a motion from center leading two in its second. Within a second a second from Senator Ballinger any discussion. Hearing none hearing none of those for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed. Motion carried. Minutes are approved. Going back to B. comments by the chairs. All represented only thank you senator Clark just for house members who may be watching if you have questions this afternoon and what the mess you have a cell phone number so please be sure just a text me your questions because I know we've got a number who are watching and also house members Representative Tosh wanted to let you know he's having some back issues if you'd keep him in your mind in your prayers so thank you senator. Thank you represented only of. thank everyone for being here of. All of you that have left whatever you would have been doing it is very unusual for us to have Friday afternoon meetings but with covert we're doing a lot of unusual things. The and it's on usual first of Friday afternoon meetings because legislators come here from the four corners of the state and many travel quite a distance to be here and they like to try to get home on Friday evening they have families in their businesses of and of the to get some time with those before they head back here Sunday not many of them for business on Monday. And we think the rest of you it's also unusual because tomorrow starts one of the biggest holidays in Arkansas and the and deservedly so of deer hunting there's for state their season so it we really have. US stepped on a lot of toes today and besides that it's Friday the thirteenth. In the year two thousand twenty of so but maybe I can offset that a little bit because I represent Senate district thirteen. And my number one I played football was thirteen so obviously thirteen is not a problem for me so maybe maybe have been my lucky number will offset the. The lack of what. This. subject today. Sometimes can be a hard subject and difficult to talk about and so all the more reason that we should be and it's been a matter of national discussion for some months and we've been trying to have this meeting for some months of an unable mainly because of covert and everything being centered around co with of as it should have been. Of to get to this. I'm sure with you just a little bit. Before we get started. We all come from very different perspectives. and I encourage you all I know that working with you you already do this two very much consider the perspectives of everyone else. And I grew up in a household. The truth taught me from the time I was born to treat everyone the same. It's just in mind. Almost in my DNA represented Dalby that that's just you know and the people that I'm around ten to do the same. Us have seen racism I have seen in the course of the state of saying things that I was embarrassed by when a when I saw it. Of. But. It was certainly something that I know the history of what has happened in our state. But my own perspective would be. From what I see that systemic racism doesn't exist. That being said. That's my perspective from what I see. When I was very young man in my early twenties I had a. Young man about five years older than me call me of. Our business is courts building materials and he was one of our vendors for one the lumber distributors in the state. he happen to be black and over a period of years as often happens and that vendor by our relationship we became good friends. And we talked about a lot of things we spent a lot of hours together over the years. And course us both being young was an unusual thing in that business. And we had known each other and been friends for five years. And we were he was up on the lumber yard. And I happen to go upon the lumber yard at our store. And he had his clipboard in paperwork in us to stay for you doing. They said on I have to show him the bottle so happy to see the plot would you have and how to build a five ACT by would you I said why do you have to do that. And he said I have to do that the show that I have called you and he did it would just tell everyone had to do that not I told him how ridiculous I thought that was the the. That they hire people that they weren't sure whether they would call people are not of but we it cost just to get into a conversation of him calling on other folks. And I asked him about another store in my town a competitor. And the he said I don't know anything about them. And I said what do you mean you don't know anything about them. He said I don't call motion with the room the. Biggest dealers here in our town why don't you call them. And I was shocked. Because again we were friends and he had never shared this with me. Had no reason to. He said the first time that I called on them this was the eighties. Not so long ago some of this. He said the first time I call on them the look at my card handed it back to me and said are you going to be the Representative for this company and he said I am. And they said tell your company that as long as you're the Representative we have no need of representation. From their company. I was shocked that that was happening in my town in the eighties. Because from my perspective it didn't happen. He also told me that there were a number of places that happened to a could happen to me I've been very angry. So I'm not those of you that know me I'm not a bleeding heart kind of guy you know I'm a kind of you know pick you know pick yourself up by the dark wipe it off and then go on. But. As of shared with other friends and those are things with me please keep in mind that wonder stings happening that we don't see. And to those of you that say on keep in mind that you're not telling us. They don't just come up in conversation. And so you're not telling us so we don't know. And I'm not saying that there's a lot of things going on because. I know lots of law enforcement officers and won the re I thought we need to have this meeting for a couple reasons one so we can hear from people and citizens about their experiences and also because I think we've been painting personally. And again I'm I don't know anything that anyone's going to certain. but I think we've been paying law enforcement with a broad brush that's not fair and so I think they should have an opportunity to speak of because I know that many of them if not most of them are just like me that they would never. Do anything like that but then there are others so. today we're just we're here to have a discussion may be started discussion. Of and find out where we are. So. Of. We've got folks that you see the you see the people listed this is not everyone that's on our list. we've had names come in late. we also people can sign up a to speak when they come to a committee meeting anyway someone asked the committee without objection that it's okay that we help people testify that are not listed in the. Hearing no objections. The and I am not going to go down the list in this order. Because we have a long agenda and there is a danger that we don't get to everyone I am going to move as quickly as I can I don't normally moved very quickly. And the reason I don't move quickly as a like for people to be able to testify and say everything they want to say and a lot for legislators expressly to ask every question they will they think they need to ask. But today I may cut you off more than I normally do. So that we can try to get to as many people as we can but I will be moving back and forth between law enforcement organizations and individuals. So that we don't hear one group and then get to the end and haven't heard another group so so you'll know why I'm doing it the way that I am doing it. but we are going to start out with with number one of. With and and let me Sir before we get to that that we will be sworn you in today. Of we're gonna start out with Jamie coat of secretary Arkansas department of public safety division of law enforcement standards and training. She'll come for. In term hit the green talk button and remain standing. And you have an old there in front of you. Who was with you. Of one at a time if you can tell me your state your name employer and position. Jamie coke secretary for the Arkansas department of public safety I'm also the director for the commission on law enforcement standards and training. My name is Fred with this phone I'm the deputy director for the Arkansas law enforcement training academy or. If you'll raise your right hand both of you. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You may be seated. And let me say that and this body take covert nineteen extremely seriously in as a basis the numbers we certainly should be. Of also take communication very seriously one speaking I will not have a mask on of and I will leave that to your option but I would rather that I could hear you clearly when you're up here testify. rather than the mask but of which we have on any other time so of. If you would like to proceed until loss of. Of what you can expressionist but anything else you can tell us about the subject. Your floor. All thank you senator Clark thank you so much for having this here today were very excited to come in and share with you guys what we think is some pretty remarkable work going on in the state of Arkansas the law enforcement standards and training division administers eight sessions of the police academy a year and three locations one eight Camden which is most people are most familiar with our residential cata me Adelita all right Camden call to lead a we also have a an academy in Springdale northwest Alita and inst two thousand seventeen added two more sessions of the police academy their partnership a camp Robinson was central Alita we are trained four to five hundred law enforcement new law enforcement officers a year we also try to offer additional training of specialized training in advance training as we can obviously our primary mission is that basic training academy we also train our dispatchers we train jailers we have a pretty robust online training program we have a great partnership with our criminal justice institute under the direction of Dr Cheryl may who offers a ton of all law enforcement training as well which is you know pretty unique across the nation to have the criminal justice institute as a partner in our law enforcement training and we're very fortunate to have that We are at the law enforcement standards office we oversee over six hundred departments and eleven thousand police officers and we make sure that the office of the agencies and officers are meeting the requirements that the commission on law enforcement sets I know that that so a lot of general information and you'd prefer to get it more specifically into our training programs and so with that I'm going to turn this over to deputy director Fred weather's been what him give an overview of our training programs A deputy director whether spends over all of our training academies. Good afternoon Senator Clark again the C. St I move the three academies that we currently over say and we conduct approximately five hundred thirty plus hours of training this regarding to from of your most basic format of law enforcement encounter to you more serious felony starving counters you civil unrest situations we we have a very broad broad curriculum that we cover every day. News thirteen we loan program that these also are. Required to complete. Questions from the committee. And non committee I should say. Okay now we're going to figure out who everyone else. Okay. Okay we're gonna go to Representative house. Thank you Mr madam chair. You mention camp Robinson I'm familiar with the driving course that is just recently been completed are you all right in that or it's the state police run an ad and why do you think. One or the other ought to do it. That track was built by the Arkansas state police specifically the state police foundation did most of the funding so the the track is going to stay under the state police but as a central Lita we will be able to utilize that as well all law enforcement officers in the state of Arkansas one thing that we've been do and build not to open in that track is to cross train all of our trainers at a lead north was a lead in central Lita and some of the larger departments like little rock police department game and fish that administer their own training academies to to make sure that were our curriculum is standardized across all of the state so that we can use old you know different instructors just because it's the state police is track doesn't mean and a lead instructor can't go out there and teach on that track so it's a it's a great partnership out of state police is a part of the department of public safety now and so we've been able to really of foster that relationship and partnership across all of the law enforcement training in Arkansas. Thank you Mr chair and. Represent the better. Thank you Mr chair Mister represent berry had to leave asked me to sit in on the server for an represented Slape the appreciate you secretary code Mr Witherspoon of I'll have to let you know about Mr Witherspoon while I was in Camden down they're going through a liter this mountain went flying by and that was my introduction to Mister Witherspoon is very impressive and is yes Sir no Sir and to this day you'll still be yes or no no Sir after attendant Camden one thing on your your of closest the secretary could look part of the train and and continuing train is working. Is racial profiling that you have in there the does the officers have to have that each year. Yes Sir I have to have a of portion of their continued and requirement two hours at this point in time has to be specific to racial profiling and then they they also have to receive that in the basic training as well thank you four Mister. Yes. I would say we have an instant with a officer and he gets the commission or could you explain us the process of that. Sure in the state of Arkansas we have a load statute on the books that requires law enforcement agencies to report to class any separation of from law enforcement they have to report when they're hired and report when they're gone they have to also report why how that separation occurred did they retire did they resign I did the were they terminated and then there's also elements were they have to to report to us under if they resigned or retired or separated for violation of law of violation of the rules that we mostly see is a violation of our code of ethics Arkansas has pretty unique and that most states around us or across the nation can't be certify all officers in if they can it's going to be for the most egregious offenses lot of committing a felony or being convicted of a felony Arkansas can be certified FOR violations of the code of ethics which every officer in Arkansas has to swear to abide by so we do have that opportunity to do that so what happens when they leave a department they report to us in a request D. certification or not if they request the certification that case goes before the commission at their next scheduled meeting the ten man commission that's appointed by the governor and they kinda here for the law enforcement attorneys in the room it's kind of a probable calls hearing the commission decides yes there's enough evidence to go forward with the D. certification proceedings or there's not if they vote yes that there is then we follow the administrative procedures act and they are scheduled or they were there served notice of hearing and so at that point time they decide whether or not they want a hearing oftentimes what we see is I just relinquish that commission A but if they don't then they're certainly entitled to due process and that hearing so we'll schedule a hearing it's usually a year out six months out we want to get that time under control of which is why the commission's going to start a meeting six times a year instead of four beginning this year in January all we've hired some additional staff to try to move that process along while still respecting the due process of the former officers so if they become the certified they office they can they can appeal that but to the circuit court I can tell you that my two year serving as a commissioner and then as the director now the secretary we've never had to commit a decertification overturning circuit court I will knock on wood because I don't want to jinx those. But in Arkansas again we're very unique in that when you are D. certified in Arkansas you're decertified for ever that means that you can never serve as a police officer in the state of Arkansas again unless the commission reverses that decision which they do not I'm not seeing them do that so really be and be certified in all our in Arkansas is the end of the law enforcement career we also added a new rule. Couple years ago that if you've been be certified in another state that you cannot come to Arkansas and be a police officer unless the commission gives you permission to do so which I've never seen them do so that's that may have been more than you wanted but I wanted to be able to make sure that I'm compass that entire process so. Thank you sector could thank you Mr Witherspoon Sir and thank you Mr chair. Central. Thank you Mr chair and and senator and Parking represent Dalby I do want to thank you for convening this meeting although it you know it's a Friday people make and a time to be here at the consent really good thing and ideas start my question all with the just trying to set the tone for how some of us as legislators wars react and relate to one another out some of the Clark started out by saying you know that he doesn't believe they're systemic racism I think I heard that right I'm for some of us of some of the maybe like how can you think that well is this is an I think on the other side of it there is definitely systemic racism but what do we do about that residential scream at each other and not talk at all we will have that bona fide deep disagreement and try to come to some understanding and that's one of the reasons that a Clark on so glad you're holding this meeting that we have so long run away from talking about tough issues and then wonder why we're not getting any better so one is at that stage from my question because I'm going to ask the two of you How do you teach officers about systemic racism. And how that might manifest in any of their actions or in of the actions Bob of a person that they are interacting with because it can come the results of that can come from both sides how do you handle that in training what do you tell them. I thank. Well in training first floor we try to teach them to treat everybody appropriately okay because I say fairly I don't use were fairly because for this to subjected to me depend on how my perspective on that is. So. When we dealing with this issue of racism we talk about it during basic training and if it is discussed and typically with the response is that we have very few admit that they're racist when they have a prejudice against a person because of the nationality whatever the case may be. But it goes to show. The and and with that we have a PO we have scenarios to where we actually have situated to where there is a a scene were there is a biker bar and the responding officers or by the goes into that saying and we often monitor how the also that participate as role players sometime we have those come coming in with our instructors that is instructed watch those offices how they interact in that scenario if the handle it will be perceived as an appropriate manner by. Hearing the commentary this may toward them or against them or the case may be and we assess that They have been situation that I'll can admit that I've seen young man women placed in a situation that in him very well okay and the reason it in how the wells probably the for the obvious okay they weren't comfortable in that environment okay in the use of language in that town. So we do address that in basic and we do have open discussions with the student basic about that's something they're going to end to counter and they're gonna have to deal with okay in that regard as to how they feel about the person that they're they're just Warren they're there to put. Skews. To safely in adequate preserve the law the rule of law. So. To sit here and say that we don't experience it I would be truthful so we we do see that occur during a training in basic but we do address and we do try to have open discussion about those situations. I if I if I may I'll just add a little bit to that in that we do do some targeted intentional a training on implicit biases explicit biases cultural diversity A so that the rope to two hours in racial profiling that's required we really we do much more than that and another thing that we do and all of our police academies is every block of instruction regardless of what the subject is house to include an ethical component because we think that everything that law enforcement officers in calendar has an ethical component so our training should mirror that so that's another way that we try to make sure that not only that were training you can't do that but what does that actually look like and how do you encounter that and how are you correct behavior that you maybe you don't even realize that you had a bias in that's what we what we try to study and would treat keeping hands and what that the director weather's been was talking about instead of just sit in a classroom with a power point we actually try to put them in these very uncomfortable scenarios and situations believing that if we can get a reaction out of them in the training environment in we can correct that there then we don't have to correct it once they get out on the side of the highway. I thank you Mr chairman I move on thank you thanks to a few. Thank you senator Elliott I want to You gave me an opportunity of. What I said. And what I tried to convey. Of. And that's one of the reasons is a port we have these discussions and it's important that we listen to each other central and I listen to each other. I can say that We have been for a long time. What I was trying to convey. When I said. That from my point of view and I tried to explain what my point of view was somebody who grew up in a family who taught to trigger by the same say everybody the same. Then from up. Upon the world didn't see systemic racism I didn't say systemic racism doesn't exist and that's why I told the other story. About my friend state you. And what I saw from his eyes that I would have never seen. And we can have these discussions and listen to each other. without plan one upmanship and I'm not referred to you Senator L. it because somebody else is already tweeted up from this meeting of that the chairman said that. US systemic racism doesn't exist We'll never get anywhere and so I implore review of I would not have the witnesses here that I'll win after to come testify today. If I thought there were no problems and I didn't think we need to have discussions and that we need to listen to each other so of again I know that most of us will but I'm for the all of this listen to each other and try to see the world from a different perspective than just the corner that you come from. Let's move on of to represent a Collins. Thank you Mr chair thank you secretary Curtis register for being here is there anything over the course of this year and what we saw on demonstrations what we see in other states as far as reforms and in terms of what's come out of the governor's task force on policing that has led you to think that we may be due for some updates or reforms or additions to the training when it comes to race implicit bias and things of that nature in Arkansas. Of. We have taken a close look at that process of what we currently provide. And based on our review I feel like we are very very on the cutting edge of what's being taught in delivered in regards to those subject may. And that yes even though we are indicating is that still than prevent us from Costa Rica reviewing and re evaluating our correct on daily. Then now and up we do an actual curriculum review every two years overall in terms. Span of correct okay but specifically those classes I thank you we are we really hitting the ball out the park in regard to how we are conducting the training in the result in assessment we receiving from the. Follow up that night Mr. Sure. Do you think that training can stop or significantly reduce instances of discrimination. And FOR implicit bias. I think training can prepare individuals to be come aware of that situation but for is the training to act we'll training actually prevent that no because I think a lot of that that we're talking about is not The result of lack of training desk or will we hear what I feel in that regard is due to predetermine predispose behavior and conduct okay that Alton reveals a set of doing most unfortunate situations and that's in a law enforcement citizen encounter. Thank. Representative love. Thank you Mr chair in and I do wanna apology for for holding this meeting. I guess I'll start with the D. certification and I never I never heard that and and so. We do certified officers based on I guess you know conduct in some things that they may have done are you familiar with the the the issue that took place at the the former chief of police with Marshall. Yes Sir Representative love I'm very aware that situation yes okay so in that instance with that individual be decertified or what what would have been the the steps of. What what what that individual be the certified first of all. We've we've received some paperwork from the mayor there terminating him and we're waiting on that requests FOR D. certification but my expectation is that absolutely that is the behavior that would be put before th put forth to the commission to review and determine whether or not he should be decertified. Okay so now. I'm just I'm a bit I'm trying to better understand the process of who would have to put forth the paperwork for him to be certified what typically it's the employing agency but has since he's the chief of police then we would anticipate it would be the mayor or on another official there and the city of Marshall or in that county is how that usually that typically works okay so if they don't put forth that paperwork the and. The well then we would take it to the chairman to see if he wanted to add it to the agenda in our chairman of the commission is chief Percy will burn out lake village okay I mean I'm I'm just trying to understand the process of and typically it I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off but but but Arkansas again we're pretty unique in that. We almost always have someone from that jurisdiction put in that request for decertification so I think that that is a testament to the accountability efforts that Arkansas has an interested to talk a little bit more about the D. certification and how aggressive that that process has become over the years in nineteen ninety six we decertified two people in the state of Arkansas. In two thousand nineteen we decertified forty so we have a lot we we are more and more holding officers or former officers accountable and because we don't want folks like that in our profession tension okay with thank you for that the last thing I want to talk about is are now do you all do the training for officers died we need to put a stop to may not kind of the protocol what is what what the protocol looks like a yes we do typically we start off with your lotus traffic stops transition traffic stops and then transfer into their high risk or felony stops okay it in the end first do you. Is there anyone is charged with doing. Training for individuals when we get stopped in the verse do you do you is there is there are agency that's charged with that for instance. For instance it what worries me is that when I'm stopped. What is the protocol what am I supposed to do right because. Initially what people are saying is. Even in the ask for three things. Driver's license your insurance the registration. But I don't want to reach for I don't want to reach for my driver's license if a loan if some of them feel like I have a weapon I don't want to go reach for my registration so in the inverse is there a protocol that is designed for individuals on we are stopped. Currently there is not a an unidentified program but going four for I think there will be some of programs and advertisement and some sort of communications to that effect to address your very concerned will it be standardized well I'm pretty sure that it will because it's going to be coming from our DPS department so I'm pretty sure it's gonna be standardized possible in will it be an drivers manuals that is one of the topics that were discussed okay part thank you Representative level five can just follow up with what deputy director weather's been said currently in the driver's license study guide is a what to do when you're pulled over document that is has been published by the Arkansas state police so the so it started because I haven't taken a driver's test in a long time so I don't know what's in that manual it is in there you know what what we've had a lot to link the discussions on is you know I've driver's ed and things like that but come to find out drivers it's not nearly as important as it was when I was eight hours as popular as it was when I was in high school maybe we should go back to that but there is a there is a document and the driver's license study manual of that that kinda outlined what to do if you're pulled over thank you thank you. Thank you Mr chair. Represent of cloning. Thank you Mr chair and. And I am relieved to hear that but that is not in fact what you meant to thank you for clarifying and thanks for having this meeting today and thank you all for being here I have a couple questions about training that are related just about de escalation training and cultural competency in particular how much of each of those is required by the state and is there additional training that's available if you know different apartments around the state decided that they would like to have more. Miss. We've been tricked training cultural competency in crisis intervention and de escalation for years when I went through the police academy in nineteen ninety four we had those because those courses in that but we really the state of Arkansas again we should be proud we are we're leading the nation in the steel that in two thousand and seventeen we pass legislation that requires sixteen hours of de escalation training in all basic academies we also partnered up with the criminal justice institute and the governor funded of incumbent training for crisis intervention also in the act was a requirement for every county sheriff's department and all the laws of municipalities to train at least one officer in crisis intervention team training which is a forty hour specialized training that partners up with mental health to identify someone in crisis to try to divert down from jails to a crisis stabilization units or a crisis a hospital or something like there were they can get the help that they need as opposed to taken on to jail so we're very fortunate here in Arkansas have that we have a very targeted approach to our intervention training and our partnerships with our mental health to to further that along knowing that if we can get a handle on mental health if we can learn better how to interact and how to divert that we are going to solve a lot of problems that we see and that law enforcement encounters thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator Chesterfield. Thank you Mr chair and good afternoon. Hope everyone's well maphrian Allen has a meeting this afternoon of one of the things that concerns me. Is the mental acuity of those who would be police officers. A and it's such a tough job to do. Do we have mental evaluation of individuals before they become police officers. Yes ma'am that's part of the hiring packet trying process in in dealing with the mental acuity how do we emphasize something as nebulous as empathy. It's one of those things that we're seeing over and over again that we have to wonder if it exists sometimes and I know in the vast majority of officers that it does but how do we get to that as for as the out liars are concerned. Is there anything in the training or anything that deals with how you interact with your fellow human being yes ma'am we do that through all of our S. de escalation training our inter our crisis intervention training but you know one of the things that is how it's always misleading right when you look at a curriculum and you've got you at two hours of this and four hours of this and six hours of the US every block of our instruction build on each you know at the if we do some basic training in week one and it's more advanced by the in the all of those in counters are based around how we're going to encounter our fellow human beings out there and so through that scenario based training which we know an adult based learning that that there's a ninety percent retention rate in your mind if you're actually seeing and talking a and doing so our goal is to always make sure that we're going towards that reality based scenario based training and put people in those situations where can you build empathy and scenarios I'm not sure of I hope so I hope that people that that there are police officers have that in them anyway and I think that's what we see the vast majority of the time and when we don't see it those are the ones that we need to deal with in response to our that the director Wetherspoons comments on the psychological evaluation class rule ten oh two requires every police officer to undergo a psychological evaluation prior to hiring and that requires a one on one interview with a psychologist or a psychiatrist in Arkansas the very restrictive of up. Full of people that can actually administer of those evaluations so that's in class rule ten of two rock and send it to you if you like to to see that that would be interesting also heading. Been pulled over The no good reason sometimes you know you you are what your life experiences are and I think that's one of the things that we deal with constantly. I'm concerned about the hubris is will. Why would why are people just tailgating people if they're if they've done something pulled him over. Get it over with and start making people uncomfortable how do we get to that so that we don't consistently have I'm getting calls in my community nine of related to the share of. There's one office to just ask you just tell gay people when we see the police in the black community I think as a whole we're not comfortable being followed by the police. And that's because of our life experiences so if if we are doing this if we're we're working toward an even better police to a police force through our training in all of the hours that you're putting in with the training how do we get to something simple I as recognize it in some communities. Just what I suspect is an alchemy people like to be DO gated if you've got a reason to stop them stop them if not leave them alone and that's was true that's one of the things that troubles me most is people just get behind and just creek that is different wanted somebody's tailgating you don't know on that is a tone other matter when is the police you know so I'm just wondering is that a part of the training I don't how do we get to that as well. Well can I don't address it by telling the story okay you hear yours I want the amount and okay. Because the sooner you just related to us it happened to me. And as a trained instructor I had a class several years ago when I was in the classroom and there I used to do security work and there was a young man come up to me one night at one of those events that I was doing security he said Mister west only that a. Is a there's offices always farm in this and every time the police told us that we were driving left to center. And so well you probably was you part of a plan to see phone or doing something young people do is a no no no it's not the case and I said okay well another hour so pass by another individual walked up to me and said the same thing. And the second time I heard that I so it typically with a smoke this far okay. And So I went back to the classroom the following day at two when I was in the classroom and and also related those scenario the situation of the young man related to me. And and I told us to make sure that you make a legitimate stops based on the real sound reasonable reason decision of probable cause okay. Not just because not to intimidate not to instill fear in individuals. And In a course to classic numbers that you know those problems correct that's what we do things. Well. This time would have it three months later next we gradually that Classen and myself I'd want my sons and I we were on our way back into town because we live in a country. And I was on the street and what mark clearly in order to have a center divider line. And I made a police car coming in me being in for it out of my mind went back to those two individuals that we're talking to about a couple months prior. And I said well what is this type of situation they were talking about you know on March St and they were going to save drive a left of center. So my case muscles in the backseat and Meeting that's police car. And the police car passed. In a car merely whipped around in Rhode. And start farming. And I'm thinking well this is not something I write about this pitcher one what happened so I Cup I was approaching the stop sign. In the lights come. So. The band instructor maybe in a police officer ex number of years and I'm thinking I want this is going to be one of those left to center complaints that those two young we were talking about. And sure enough and also got a car. I stepped out a current as to the barman door. Make sure I didn't do anything that I should do is is you referring to. And as a young man got closer. I looked up and he looked at me and he said oh my god. Was a running about the stories he's one of the young man was sitting in the class that I was talking to. Okay. And I told him to make sure you have a legitimate protocols in respect for stop. In his first words for me is our room may eighty so Sir you were driving left of center. And I. Total emissive young man a so you you're grown A so you're not I was not drive left to center. And I said did I not warn you about that situation few months ago. Hit me return walked away Dennis Conner left. So to your point I know that type of situation happens. But how do we address that in the training environment. Just like I did in the classroom I emphasize imports a making sure we do things correct way. And then our training environment not training academies that's one thing that personal response before in three academies throughout the state that I know for certain when they leave our facility they know how to treat our citizens correctly. In a follow based on. What we have taught them when they leave our academy. which cannot make them after they left the academy here to what they've been talking. That country were saying the horse to water you can make a leg injury all right thank you thank you Mr chair. I want to let you know that it is about seven eight minutes till two and we have. Seven in the queue we will of stop with these witnesses at two if you want to have one back in the future and have only they'll because it looks like we have lots of questions we can do that bills we will continue to we run out of time and go to the next witness represent to Scott. Thank you Mr chair. I think this question is for secretary Kirk thank you for the data and information you sent on the decertification because I was a little unsettling last week to hear about the two to three year backlog that you have that high I appreciate the aggressiveness to get those cases heard next year If for meeting six times a year ago and if we have two to three years of backlog currently are you anticipating as being called up by the end of the year for I know that there's due process and a lot of other things that come into factor but if there's something you probably can't answer for me you can send me the information and you and I can continue to have this dialogue that we've been having this week but I also wanted to know about how often are officers trained on de escalating situations like how am is it just when they're initially you know brought into the forest or is there on going training. A couple of what I'm I respond to your second yes ma'am first of they are there are and twenty four hours of continuing ed requirements in the state of Arkansas and there are classes offered by the criminal justice institute and the commission on law enforcement that deal with the escalation and cultural competency all of those things back to the are the mandatory. Are they mandatory each year or eight yes twenty four hours a continued at is mandatory to maintain your certification state of Arkansas exactly what those classes are A will be for each individual officers love to the chiefs and the sheriff's to to decide because no one that the game and fish may have different needs than the shares departments and the chiefs of police would allow them that latitude of racial profiling is required for every officer a four year of as part of that twenty four hours a continuing ad into dress the the I think that there was a kind of some misunderstanding we are not we do not have a two to three year backlog of the certifications we have forty pending cases right now of those forty twenty six were added and twenty twenty so only fourteen of those cases or more than a year road I absolutely anticipate that those are gonna be caught up in this next fiscal year or this next calendar year when we start meeting we just had a special of meeting and did a two days worth of the certifications covert kinda hit as hard because we had to cut a cancel OR July meeting and so we have lots a hearing scheduled the on but but just to just to be clear we do have a little bit of a backlog but we've only got two cases it's more than two years so that's pending the certification. Thank you thank. Represent the Springer. Thank you Mr chair. And thank you all for being here I believe my question is for secretary cook in this real direct in this. You indicated that eighteen man commission was approved by the board do you mean that literally are are there women is a part of that board as well. A ten person. There there is a female on there how many there's one female okay alright and then as may as the director but I'm a non voting member alright thank you. Represent a Watson. We go thank you Mr chair. Appreciate secretary to Mister with this phone. Proud graduate eighty six a a leader. I'm just reflecting back does I hate to tell of for my age. Does the ladies. I thought things were tough then. In the field a law enforcement. Well have they changed. Hello can I shift gears for just a second I will be really broad now and. Thank back for the really for the last eighteen months maybe two years my question is in reference what have you all seen in reference to municipalities. Counties. And state agencies. Where we add to what are you also you in either one of you as far as a recruiting hiring. six things are set up so much more transparent. All for that needs to be and the scrutiny is. Like it has never been before I promise you when I started back in eighty five can you give me just a quick synopsis of a of what your singing I hope and pray that were not getting into a Dire straits is far as lack of manpower coming up can you elaborate either one DO please on the where we're at on that will which our scene please. Represent Walton thank you so much for asking that question and I know we have several chiefs and sheriffs here they're gonna be able to tell you more specifically to their department but you're exactly right we are in a crisis in the crisis is that we cannot retain officers in this country and we've not seen that problem in Arkansas as severe as we are now right before I came over here I just spoke with chief Percy will burn in lake village Arkansas who also chairs our commission on law enforcement unfortunately we were setting up a meeting for Monday for the commission to award the beneficiary of phone officer benefit for officer that was murdered last night and how long. And I was talking to Percy and he just didn't sound good and I've known him for years and also you know chief what's up and he said I'm tired J. me I'm tired I've been here for more than thirty years and I've never seen it this bad. And he's in lake village you probably read the news they had some but they had a shooting their loss not as well. I said how shorthanded are yes he said I'm down three officers will three officers may not sound like a lot but for lake village Arkansas whose whole forces TN that's a lot and I can guarantee you can ask these chiefs and sheriffs out there they're going to tell you the exact same thing that we can not retain officers because this is what Percy said said used to when they left lake village they were going to another law enforcement department making more money the following the money they're trying to make more money because they want to live of a you know a decent life and be able to support their families they're not stay in a law enforcement anymore the out. One so we've got to make those investments as a society into our law enforcement if we want to retain our good police officers and this is my passion you're not talked about it for a long time I've been in this business for not as long as he'll and not as long as he. The quiet some time and quite frankly you know we we should all be very very concerned when we see the data out there of our officers Levon at an alarming rate on the national narrative you can see in Chicago we had a two hundred percent increase in retirement applications this year as over the year before how long can that trend last before we get to a place for will call on our income but officers at a year in two years at U. their income but there are at the that a year and two years of experience in. I'm sorry if I went on a little bit of a tangent but I'm very passion about this we have got to make an investment in to law enforcement if we're going to keep great law enforcement and I'm gonna tell you guys we have great law enforcement here in Arkansas and when we have a problem we deal with it but we have great this man right here give his life mission is to make sure that we're trying in on to be the very very best that they can be to survive these guys out here this leadership out here when we see something that happened like we just all happened with that that person that sat in the chief of police role that that infuriates us because that is that is reflective on all of us and that's not the kind of leadership that we have in Arkansas law enforcement we only want the best and we want everybody held accountable. Quick follow up missed share. Quickly. We're a long way you for a resolve on this everybody knows is of this is something that will that cannot be given up on no doubt about it just like any employer we won't you guys want the most qualified candidate it does not matter it is more more impaired of now than ever before so Yeltsin needless to say I know I'm preaching to the choir yells task is it he and you all know that we need to make sure we keep back can you keep the train in all go when a yes Sir yes ma'am this is a different day and time it is tough out there praise the lord every day that I do not have to be behind the wheel up and down the interstate like I used to appraise the lord praise the and a heart goes out to the officers from last night to no further thank you Mr. Thank you all of the sector cook insistent of order to direct your with spring thank you all for being here thank you. Of going to go to what shows to be number six on the agenda Scott Hamilton C. E. O. the urban league. You'll be sure one those green lights is let. if your main standing and tell us your name employer position. Yes my name is Scott Hamilton and I'm the CEO of the Arkansas urban league that we raise your right hand if the someone's were affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do maybe so you thank you thank you. Thank you for having us today and thank you chairman Clark I we we really appreciate this opportunity certainly you know as we've talked in as we've seen across this country here of late. A this is clearly an issue that we're seeing in the country and with Arkansas we're seeing the same issues now fortunately we have not seen the level of issues that we've seen you know be of the media what have you but there's no question that the basis of what we're seeing around this country exist everywhere these are human issues I'll be brief today I've got quite a bit that would certainly like this year but in the interest of time I'd like to just go to some very basic points and what we believe certainly at the urban league of Arkansas this being incredibly important at this time in our society they're really good state of Arkansas is one of the oldest civil rights and urban advocacy entities in the war in the country formed in nineteen ten nationally nineteen thirty eight here in Arkansas very simple we have a Kate for equity and equality for all people very simple we look at health education social justice jobs and housing is our five main pillars the certainly this is a social justice issue but it's a health issue it's an education issue it's pretty much any is you want to put in that blank. So what I'd like to talk to the is is not the specific issue of what we're seeing with policing because we've we've seen it there's enough conversation we will continue to talk about today I do serve on the governor's task force simply thing as well serving with secretary cook in deputy director with the spoon and we've had some in amazing conversations that's been inclusive of fitness and law enforcement and others what I want to talk about today is really a legislators you know there is an incredible responsibility that what we're talking about be talked about a I think it's important as legislators thank you all each keep this conversation going in your regions are districts of these conversations are important how to your point on my perspective German Clark would certainly be different than yours and and rightfully so and I think we all must recognize that and respect that of everyone I think it's incredibly important that we not place our own personal faults views feelings experiences and expect others to be in that space so I appreciate your comments very much. But again that's the way we find out to your point the with the conversation where you learn in your own community that indeed there were some things that would not sit well with you. And so I think that's what we have to do I think legislators are incredibly incredibly important to this issue this conversation must be presented and and and and presented in a way that it is in serious of anything as we're seeing these officers out there daily. putting their life at risk they're asking their families to respect that so when we see the type issues that we're dealing with in society these days I think that these are conversations that must be had so I as the CEO of the early S. that our legislators take more time in your respective areas opening up communications we have the technology to do it simply I'm a twice a monsoon call you could set that up and say to your community I'm gonna be sending out emails soon chime in lists and hear what the community is saying. That's where the solutions are when you begin to hear the challenges that are out there the concerned that's where we have resolved now I've as is due to the loss that down and Senate bill is that my notes for to long she's correct but I I will say this is that I I had one of the Arkansas today but I call my twenty one year old niece this morning I said I'm going to be presenting I was excited about presenting before the Judiciary Committee here today and I says give me your perspective as a twenty one year old and it's a sign and I'll tell you something she taught me a thing it to actually quite a bit more this is a good looking spouse looks like me he's a smart to houses that after her uncle both say she talked about three different points the first thing that came and the kids math with environment threw me for a loop and she said uncle Scott Hughes is she she said that the twenty one year all he sent me and my friends are seriously concerned about environment. He says we see things that are occurring that suggests to us that we may not have a world in the next ten fifteen twenty years to even operated that's a big concern. Then she thought that the quality of that will give the tell me what that's got to do I'm talking about is a will there's a lot of folks out here that are concerned about this and she said that in that case they're making decisions that may be short term not really long term because their perspective is that they're not hearing in a lot of cases that certain things that our long term importance to them or being talked about one of them being environment us at the Q. this is tell me about this the qualities but she says yes she said that a lot of folks that are out there that are doing things that are not right why because they feel like they don't have access to the things that would allow them to do things that everyone wants make a decent living thank you for the family get up every day have something to do this is the criminal activity does happen in a lot of times it's not because that's what they really want to do but they feel like they may not have a choice again that's communication and then she talked a little bit about it they would tell me what you think about the protests that so what's going on there she says with conscious that there's a deal she says. A lot of times the effort is just to bring attention we get that we know that's what protest ARE all about but she said not only though for the immediate issue that one maybe protesting but also saying to others that this is my topic today this could be yours tomorrow understand what it is that people are asking and why what is it what is it what is the into information that they're trying to convey why are they doing certain things so I say all that to say is I'm gonna take it back to again and FOR other legislators I think it's important to understand what your people in your reasons are districts are thinking about communicate the power that you all have in terms of making this issue one that our citizens believed to be a genuine one that is really of concern is is in your hands it simply if you make a topic if you say that this is important that we want the information we want to learn we want to understand what is it citizens are dealing with make it assessable we've all got this little simple technology pretty much anybody has but again our employer you from the early is again to make sure that this topic is one that gets the the level of attention respect which will allow that communication the flow and I think this were solutions com I appreciate the time at third available for any questions. Thank you for being here Mister Hampton and for what you had to say of the Representative flowers do you have any questions here for just. The Boston four love letter from a four. Thank you very much Mr chair I'll go ahead and take advantage of this opportunity even though we went to another point on the agenda. And I guess pose this question to you Mister Hamilton just in terms of. Of what we heard so far from secretary cook and deputy director this when in all of your service on the task force I brought this issue up last week and I'd like to hear your perspective but before I ask the question I want to make a point and I was going to make this point when secretary coke was speaking are visited with her a lot visited with the state police in an effort to explore how we can do better in terms of collecting data because I had no idea about all of the work that we do in some of the things that we do different from other states so in a lot of ways we are way ahead of the curve but when everybody so far behind the curve and we're not necessarily collecting the data across the state that we could to see how we're really doing particularly as it relates to use of force and police shootings Bennett I think leaves. The chance how people think about police how people think about each other and so I've been very focused on seeing how we can harness state resources to have one standard as to how we collect maintain and disseminate data as it relates to the use of force to determine whether or not it's excessive by one officer by the department by a county or by the state and the last session I've you know filed the same bill and talked with the state police and found out that there is an FBI there's an opportunity for locales to share their data through an FBI portal but that it but it's not mandate it so we're still in this position where there's no state or national standard there aren't even really local standards you just sorta. Have to hope that the F. B. information that you're requesting you can get to my question is has that been much of a conversation isn't much of a concern for the urban league and as a member of that task force would you be supportive of at least a mandate for all Arkansas law enforcement agencies to report these these are data to a through the FBI and make that available to people To determine how well we're doing or how well we're not. Yes thank you Representative flowers a a great question yes certain from the early of state of Arkansas you any type of information data collection process we certainly believe is wise we believe that consistency standards in which the information is is is is conveyed and and captured and made available to the public is incredibly important because again these are things that I believe allow for conversations to start to make sense as opposed to in one space at one area there's a strategy now the spaces in of the strategy of the consistency is extremely important as a task force we certainly passing conversations as it relates to data collection of I am familiar with the FBI A databases you mention not certain that that has been put in currently as a recommendation but certainly we have had much conversation in that space in terms of having information availability information that is accessible to the public again I think these are the type conversations that need to be at these are the things that citizens in public that will bring when the opportunity is and I think those are the things that then begin to bubble up and say Hey these are what work so I I agree that certainly yes. Means to capture data in a consistent format is incredibly important. Thank you and if I could just close Mr chair by saying just a couple of things I would join my colleagues in thanking you for bringing these issues forward through this forum and everyone who's here present to talk about these issues today understanding is represent Watson said you know these are long standing issues they're involving in a way that we don't want to see them involved and it's not gonna be settled today and but they can't get settled as you said if we're not talking about the issues and. I'm you know Representative for pine bluff and we recently lost an officer in in any jurisdiction that hadn't seen anyone an officer shot since the nineties. And Kevin Collins I don't know him well but I knew him is an example of why we need to address these issues not just as it relates to you know excessive use of force and the issues around policing but. Some of the issues in our communities that affect what's happening as a as Kennedy talked about Mister Hamilton. you know we can't ignore what is happening in our communities and expect policing to stay the same and we can't ignore what's happening in our police departments and expect communities to react the same. Kevin Collins is an example and so is Mister is a door who was shot by police and he was over a hundred years old and we will never forget him and we can't you know that the systemic issues that all of us don't see and experience are the systemic issues that allow these things to happen and continue and I'll close by saying. I'm near an area. Where a young woman in this is hot on social media who work for sonic because she has since quit acting on Sunday it happened. Of was serving two gentleman in a tall truck they were white gentleman she was young African American woman I think she's about on our mid twenties. on complicated but anything they spit in her face twice and then spit on her shirt. And instead of being held accountable I believe the police were called it's being completely covered up she quit. A she told a local Leader that she doesn't want to deal with that anymore other people who work there saying they don't want to lose their jobs and nothing has happened to these guys. So public safety is important throughout the community you want to feel safe when you go to work you want to feel safe when someone does something to you that the police respond. And that's not what's happening so that's a part of I think the systemic nature of what we're dealing with whether we're dealing with that vocally and openly or in a very closed and and and transparent way and so thank you again for holding this meeting. Representative Watson do you have a question. No okay. A. Stir Hamilton thank you again. Being here and your remarks and adding to the conversation thank you thank you very much we're going to go to Andre Pendleton. As Andre Pendleton here. The bill be sure the a green light is lit. The talk button. And of remain standing. And tell me A tell us your name reporter position. My name is James Andre Pendleton. I am the insurance agent here in little rock with State Farm for the last twenty eight years and I'm a real estate investors will and you also may. I'm here late registered nurse and you I am and. Okay if you'll raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yes you may be seated. You may proceed. Well I was asked to come and tell the story of what happened to us. On the night of June the second. And it was a night that Protesters were out. And. I was with had worked late like I always do. And Kiel was driving. And we were on our way to the house. We had heard that there was a protest then they were going to the governor's mansion we were. On our way to the house like I said As we approach the rear gate of the governor's mansion and now the protesters were going to the front gate of course but we were going past the rear gate my home at the time was seven hundred feet from the rear gate of the governor's mansion. As we approach the gate. A guy dressed in military. Fatigues. In with the bullet proof vest the helmet the goggles. All of that just walked out in the middle of the street he never flagged us down he didn't say stop the only thing he did was pointed an M. sixteen. Rifle at us with a bright light. On the gun. And the laser pointed at KIIS chest. And he never said a word. So we were sitting there. And. Our young. State trooper walked up to the passenger side window where I was. And. He said where ya going. A said I'm going home I live right there. I said why XYZ got point a gun at us. It's so we're trying to keep everybody safe. Now. There was nobody else on the street but us. so I ask again why is this guy appointed gun at us. And he said we just trying to keep everybody safe at that time. He tell those he will he motion to the guy holding the done. To let us through. And that's when he lowered the gun. Let us through. And we could see from my front yard. That no one else was stopped. And no one else came through. For at least another hour there when there was no traffic no anything. I wrote a letter and most of you all got a copy of the letter. To the Arkansas state police. And I mailed it early in the day so I know they got it. Way before they admitted they got it. I got a phone call a few days later. From the director state police. Telling me that you know they would look into it. about a week went by. it was longer than a week probably to. Got a call from. Of the state police and that we think we have identified who this police officer was that. That the at this. a so we think he's a north little rock police officer. And they would get back with me. about a week later I get a call from the chief of police in north little rock. And he said that it was one of his offices that had done. And he would like to have a meeting with me and he wants to have a meeting with kia being present. And he said well would you like to meet. Well I don't trust the police that much anyway so I told me to come to my office. So he came to my office. Kia was at the office and My cousin of retired judge merry Humphrey. Was in the meeting also. And he knew the. He knew the chief from his dealings in the courts well. The chief told us and he he minimize would happen to us. And that's my opinion that he minimized it because he said well you know it only happened for fifteen seconds and the only reason he points the gun at you was because there was only flashlight he had. Imagine that I got to look down. The barrel of an M. sixteen because this on the flashlight to guide. And. You all excuse me but that's bullshit. And that the police officer is a terrorist. Because there was no other reason but to terrorize us that he pulled a gun. He should not be a police officer anyway. And to my knowledge today we haven't heard anything else about any kind of disciplinary action or anything. About it at all is like a we just point going to make this thing going to go after and pretty much that's the way it is And I would like to know that something was going to be done. But with the. Small amount of faith that I have in the system is not looking very hopeful and I hope you will chime in and. Taylor peas when I saw. Thank you for having us here first off advisory said that night with some really horrific I talked to a girlfriend a couple days before and I say you know what it I've never had a gun pulled on me. And I said if I do this is what I'm gonna do. Never would I have imagined that that day would com two days later. And when it happened I actually thought that I was seeing things because my eyesight is bad but the guy just walked out and he didn't put his hand up. Being a nurse I I think there's some things called common manners common courtesy you know there's a way to stop and get attention I understand that there will the Proteus but there's ways to handle things I wasn't speeding. I think I was going less than twenty. but it just came out and he waved the gun. And he put me he did it it was on me directly on me and I looked down and I'm like. It's done with my hands on the steering wheel normally I would have got my phone out to record but because of the culture the climate of everything I was going on I I didn't even I didn't think about it and when we have a meeting with The north little rock police chief I felt really really. I built dismissed Outside of be invalidated I also thought that he just kind of played down how I was feeling you know I have I didn't sleep last night at all I tossed and I turned in this it's been going on ever since this happened like I'm being chased by the police I'm being stopped and you know I go to work every day I pay my taxes I try to be a law abiding citizen I'll have a traffic violation I don't know I just feel like we were down played and our rights were violated for no reason other than being black. Any questions from the committee. Three one. Senator Ballinger. I'm over here liberty left thank you Mr at this point do you know who who they were and I understand that the work for the north little rock police department but it wasn't in the employment of the north little rock police department that time right because the been way outside of his jurisdiction so was he like contracted with by the state police or or the governor's mansion like to who who actually was employment that time and if you don't know that but I we find out somewhere else will at the time of the protest. This everybody all the police officers were working under the direction of the state police You know there north little rock police they had the guys from game and fish the Hey guys from. All over and this went on for at least a week. And it seems like every time I turned a corner. One of these police offices was following and stopping somebody of called. We all being terrorized in own neighborhoods. So yes they were working under the recreation of this Arkansas state police. Central. Thank you Mr chair I just a I I just kids I'm working on trying to deal with the fine allergy of what I'm hearing is that is is it and my clear in understanding this is supposed to be this is the finally of what's going on no further anything is anticipated to reach a different. It's the opposite of no better way this question will since the north little rock police officer left my office we haven't seen him or heard from him or anybody else from the Arkansas state police. We did S. to view the video of the night that we went that this occurred and they said that they would get in touch with us but we have not heard anything and when I axed I'm sorry that was at the north little rock police north little rock police he said that they didn't have it it was property of the governor's mansion and they had to go through some type of protocol for that but they can really go into that but he said that they would allow us to view it but it was only thirteen seconds I believe if it thirteen thank thirteen fifteen new pair his or P. ax me how long you think this occurred as they were felt like five minutes he's that will with thirteen seconds I said for your downplaying because it was left seconds then what it felt like and I also axiom about the officer why didn't the officer come and apologize or say something and he said he represented the north little rock police department there was no need for the officer to be there. Okay thank you. Represent of cloning. We hear area of that thank you Mr chair and my question is for you and I'm so sorry I didn't hear your last name. late fees Ellie why miss coolly thank you so much and thank you for your testimony you mentioned that you had had a discussion two days before that happened with a friend about what you would do if a gun were pulled on you will you speak a little bit about what your experiences where that led you to even have to have that conversation in the first place and then why you didn't feel in the moment as if you could record what was happening yourself. What led to the discussion is the George floor the incident and We were just talking I mean we live this every day so we had we were just having a conversation. and what was the other question why you felt in the moment that you couldn't record as you had hoped you would. Fear that I would be shot he had a gun pointed at me with his hand on the trigger so you know I have children I have a grandson I want to make it home. And as soon as I left I call my children because I couldn't believe that just happened to me. Thank you so much thank you. Well I want to say something to that as well Two black folks read nine street in a car. Looking down the barrel of an M. sixteen and he was pointing as if I just want you to move I want you to reach for something so I'll have an excuse to kill. No no by those school reach for phone or anything else. If you know. If we had this conversation probably wouldn't be going on that. Representative flowers. Thank you Mr chair. Schooley and Mister Pendleton on. Sorry that happened and I remember when that happened and I remember that hearing and and Maybe reading that there would be some. Follow up and I I don't know why I'm surprised but I am surprised that that was all you got and that there was. Really no finality officially my question is. Was there ever any formal process any formal complaint. Written or otherwise. Not that I'm aware of I mean I didn't write one I wrote the letter and send it to. This many people that I thought would read it so I scented certified to the state police I sent to the governor I sent it to a lot of people right but Date the meeting the state police are very aware of what happened and I I I I'm assuming they wrote it up but that's all I know I know and I know they are and I'm not asking the question is if you didn't do something per se I'm just wondering if there is. What the processes for a formal complaint and if that is why they felt okay about not following up with your request to see the video or not following up with any investigation or any apology or anything so that's why I asked the question in that and I thank you for your and then thank you for being here and speaking speaking to the fact about the video. They did tell us would that we would get a chance to see it. And I don't know if any of you all have you ever ridden by that rear gate of the governor's mansion or not. Everything is recorded their cameras everywhere. But they told us that the guy holding the gun was not in sight of the king of the camp. How can be. And they're pretty good at doctor tapes did you have a body camera. Of it I I have no idea I mean we had a bright light in eyes so. He said that the light was Jeff they use it for sweeping like just to sweep across but. He didn't suite he held he pointed the gun. He pointed it at me. And to speak to your point that you made when I axe would would come out of this meeting for us and he said. All that he could say is he hate that it happened. And they will work within the department to ensure that it did happen to anyone else and I said so house that consolation to me because when he started off the meeting I immediately got upset he didn't say I'm sorry that we're here I hate that this happened he wanted to the story of interviewing his officers and their story collaborative we what Andre wrote in the letter he said everything collaborative except for the guy pulling a gun on us everything else was down to the T. he said you are exactly right no one got stop after you guys. I stood in the street and I watched him there were a couple cars but they they came on and they don't even live in the neighborhood he said they were called to the front gate because the protesters had made it but. I mean the only thing we got was we hate that it has. And I was going to write a letter I thought I was going to email him because I wanted to talk I wanted to hear from the officer I want it I just wanted to hear from him. And I decided not to do that because. Angry I'm angry. Still. For then write the letter. I understand. Thank you more than you know. Represent a scope. Miss coolly and Mister Pendleton thank you for being here on I'm sorry for the circumstances in which you have to come before the Judiciary today I do represent or for the rock and so I wish is interested to know if you met with chief Davis or was did you meet with the the new chief so that I can kind of follow up on this. Terry rouse the new guy okay thank you. Representative Springer. Thank you Mr chair thank you Mr Pendleton and the school you for being here today. State Farm. Of. I have this question and maybe it's for a US secretary cook is there any record of this particular incident being reported. To your department or to the commission or to anyone else to the governor's office any agency. Because sounds like it's something that should have been reported is anyone here to answer that question. We'll. Therefore get the information thank you to you represent to Springer. Okay it he's going up to see if she's off there maybe she can answer it without her having the. This spring I am I know the governor did receive the letter I didn't hear from him. But I have. Folks that made sure they got it okay so he has a copy of the yes. Probably more than one. A this is this the. Secretary coat. Out. I'm not sure right here Springer choice for going out I I in choir and I don't know if you if you outside this thing to the testimony that just a place where there was an incident that occurred at the governor's mansion around the second of June Warren of these the gentleman in the lady here were accosted for lack of a better word by a of police officer for lawful rocks a police department I was just singing enquiring whether not your whether your office or if the members of the commission and we see that a type a report from the north little rock police department regarding the incident at the governor's mansion there was a letter that was sent to the governor's office as well as other of police officials and to date of they have not received any kind of satisfactory response to their concerns that have been forced and I was just wondering within that anyone from the governor's office of Arkansas state police on the commission had said anything to you about it I will. Thank you I appreciate that. Man face off and they did ask us if we wanted to do one of the Colorado long along with to see how far the job the is and all that they go through and we respectfully declined I decline I don't know how respectfully was but I'm not going to I'm not read anywhere what police. Mister Pendleton miss coolly the chill of. I never did. What a her denture to this to Jo follow formal complaint with anyone with north little rock with the state police now. And if we I mean if we did that. How do we go about doing it and how do we trust that he will be taken seriously. Again and again that was not a derogatory quite thing And it's interesting that you bring that up because in a conversation with a colleague. Of here in the legislature a few weeks ago I brought up he told me something that happened hill and I said what that had happened to me I would have filed a complaint. Any said I never thought about filing a complaint. He said I don't think anybody in my neighborhood talk about coming from different places a report about following a complaint. And so I can't tell you know I have been talked out of following a couple complaints of a man. Do it formally because the people said you know we'll take care of it and uh but I have never had a going gun pointed at me either so I think with a formal complaint somebody. Has to answer and on and I'm not sure of that the. I was just curious as to whether there was a formal complaint filed or not. Because I think with a formal complaint there almost has to be an investigation. but again. Of. The. I really appreciate your coming for today and we there may be a sin thanks there will be other stories of our job today is not to. Investigating going to each one A but to hear them so that as as we. Look at this This is one that might be worthy. Of us walking into or someone looking into no there's a lot of people listening. and certainly this is the Judiciary Committee of because I at the the again I come from unique situation that I have friends or law enforcement officers I have a very high respect for law enforcement of Mr films you not come from two different places on the other hand I have run into abuse of officers more than once. Of. And the. The. And was not treated the way that I should have been treated of and you know you I think you have that in any line of work it's house bill with but a gun pointed at you anybody this listening I would really like to hear. If I'm driving down the road so my steps of. Somebody steps on the road point a gun at me. My first thought is not even that they're a law enforcement officer. Of of I'm with you. Somers got a gun pointed at me they're the boss at the moment The so I very much appreciate your bringing this forward to us and there will be more questions asked I I can't tell you that the the having dealt with some other investigations I can't tell you that you will or will not ever getting satisfaction but there will be more questions asked. so again thank you for coming today and if you got anything the final to say before we moved to our our next witnesses thank you for having us thank you. Thank you. And. Four to know there were more waiting but. Is you can save we will have a hard time getting to everyone. We're going to go back to law enforcement Gerry sops the executive director Arkansas association of chiefs of police and think of our list of cheese have changed for various reasons some help that one has code would one had to be somewhere else of but if you are an old see one coming for. I am very survives the executive director of the Arkansas association of chiefs of police. Chief. I'm sorry director if your of ray's right hand. The song was were affirm that the testimony but he'll be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes. Who do you have with you here chair chief Rick Elliott Jones replaced forms or thank you to of we raise right hand these sellers were firm at this point but it will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth editor. You may be seated. Okay I'll add to our discussion today. You restore you also order Well first the this just kind of start from the last comments and work our way backwards a little bit of a very unfortunate situation these individuals there encountered the governor's mansion and I think that the chief probably could have a little bit better been a little bit more sympathetic empathetic towards of their situation and what took place I think is. All the situations across country that unfold the you know we as a chief we look at the situations and always question though are we doing that or we change our policy and can we do better we're always looking to do better that's part of our social ation the chiefs of police commit Jamie cook our director she is brought our commission law enforcement standards to a new level we won't bad officers of the profession tarnishes the baggage A bill at this job forty one years and I find it a very offensive and. When somebody does something stupid and tarnishes the baggage whether it's in Arkansas over the to Minnesota you know when you had officers do an idiotic things and because of the life of a man then that adversely affects us also because now we're all painted with that broad brush that you spoke of Mr chairman early on in our conversation and you know we don't want to be labeled as all cops are bad I hate the word all because we don't like to just say well all cops are bad just because somebody in the profession did something wrong because of the the space it over the history of this legislation over the past years there's legislators it's been in trouble is done bad things but I'm not paying all you is bad because of ideas on that and the same goes for any profession out there there are people who do stupid things and and need to be held accountable for those things and we much agree so the most Ford in and and look at these things is gone across the country we we talk about the reform and I absolutely or other things in the system that need to be looked at and tweak to reform agree there is is our policies that departments have in place that need to be looked at and reform absolutely but more importantly to be standardized as key words standardization and what we do across the board. Now own would look at the national level and we want to start there and those policies the to be brought across the country we we're doing a standardization in the state of Arkansas missed director to look as good outstanding job of getting law enforcement standardized bringing model policies to the tables police chiefs and sheriffs to look at that are good sound policies to run your department but there's also the international chiefs association that has great model policies for chief for sure of it's easy to go and find good policies good sound policies that have been tried true in a hold up in court so that that is your great start this chiefs association is a great store police chief go to and and get a good policy put in place so it's getting of policies in place and get that training in place as director Witherspoon talk about you know we train on so much you know we don't get thirteen weeks an academy and you have to teach a softer of criminal code and how to be a first responder have the the the EMT and how to be a counselor now to be empathetic and just the list goes on and on and on thirteen weeks expect them to come out and and do wonders and you know it it's not a perfect place it's not a perfect perfect world there's training that must go on and on and on but guess what Arkansas old the funding for training across for law enforcement and cut our criminal justice institute in this state the funding for it has been cut so weak we gotta talk about creasing that funding and getting these officers the chance to go to the use of this facility to be trained because what you get in the thirteen weeks it's just the very tip of what needs to take place in life as a police officer trying he's got to go own unknown unknown for the entire officers live I'm at this forty one years guess what I'm still training because laws change procedures change we don't do business. The day that I did in nineteen seventy nine when I started time to change we we have to change with those times so the the training the funding for this training from y'all has got to come back to these this is over of the criminal justice institute in these academies we've got to have these academies fund to get these officers in the retention rate we talked about the retention rate of these officers you know they're not lasting the show also you're coming in of bear any life skills you know the we will look at our work forces coming in our young work force what life skills they have they spent most of the life doing this they have no social interaction and but that comes across on a traffic stop will sometimes they're rude not necessarily being rude they just lacking personal skills because they don't interact with with individuals and that is problematic it's a perception thing it's not necessarily about your race right thank it is sometimes they just don't come across well. Are the racial issues yeah listen when I was a third of now that can we do better absolutely now what we do better Jonesborough okay speak for the rest the State Bank to what I'm doing for my report a lot of it break balls down to communication with the people that you serve every day. I took over chief and twenty fourteen January twenty fifteen I began a community of of set amend citizens police academy. Bringing people in the community about thirty students do it two times a year for eleven weeks we're not we were level weeks educate me to what placing does how we do it well be doing things like that. So but from my students I gather from them. You know the first night I ask what is the make it feel like when you get stopped. If you happen to be of different race. We learned. I don't know what it's like I don't know what you have gone through I don't know if you don't do we if your your for your stop that makes you feel so the question is what can we do in law enforcement to make that go a little bit easier make that not so tense moments. So goes back to your training and your policies you put in place so just have a positive place you know when you make a stop in you approach the court you identify yourself as also the Jones will police department this is the reason why I stopped to serve ma'am. Cordial cordial greeting take care of business. Be the L. which which you've got. Interaction with the community get those officers out in the community and interact with communities that you serve. It eases tension down the road. Twenty fourteen Ferguson Missouri would you have had a bone of a community if the police and the community they serve had a good relation. Those relationships adventure brain but you're saying Ferguson Missouri on national TV maybe maybe not but one been as bad. Joe says they don't trust the police wow eight had some bad encounters obviously is probably more than one time. So we need to take from from the these individuals that have bad bad but encounters it and let learned and and ask ourselves what can we do to make that encounter better. Is there something in a lot of times it's just it's small simple things just make what we do day in day out a little bit better it's about education. Lot of small departments of they get basic training that's it again trying he's got to go home with across the country these big problems is taking place of jumps out our national news. Are they getting property trying they have good policy that's the first thing you need to ask is that in their policy was it written out like that the more important with that that that also follow that policy nine times out of ten also did not involve the department so policy so the lack of training. The department taking time and pushing their officers through training. We require twenty four hours in house training every year. Just to go over the basic policies policies and procedures and things like this. So. Again I think a lot of what we can. We can accomplish in life is. Officers chief sheriffs and I've said this many times we can do better as a kid community. When we talk to each other instead of at each other. We can do better together. Thank you for your. Well with echo a lot of what she believed you said the committee are the citizens police academy was one of the biggest and Mister such as your is your Marco. I'm sorry I would echo again what what chief Elliott said a lot of these issues and back when I was a police chief I did also rims to the assistance please cabinet which gave those individuals an opportunity to get out and ride with the police officer to see exactly what they encounter. I would challenge you all to do the same thing I challenge you all to get in it go to your community get a call with the placement and ride see what they they encounter you'd be amazed they they have a very difficult job. The and I want to touch on something that I touched on earlier the and I wanna say also thank you for giving the officer a moment of silence while ago and prayers for the family that's that's a very difficult is a bad day to be here really in talking about these issues when we got to alter that was killed in the line of duty last not. It is really that touches your heart of. Yeah there's a lot of a lot of things going on out there right now. In is not good it's not it's just not good I've never seen anything like this for a I've been in the sent by things seventy five of absent along changes but nothing like this nothing like this at all I will tell you a little bit water the achieved dissociation has done we back in two thousand ten we started I guess we had a vision we had a vision because so many law enforcement agencies across state has zero policies and their main. So we the association started writing policies the most critical issues that we saw a law enforcement agency you would face as far as liability issues go we got those policies we put them on our our website through absolutely free. We pay for it's absolutely free to any agency where the chairs or the all state. Local in in the county guys have picked up on them as well the use and that's what they're there for. So what we did that we wanted to start an accreditation program so we set up hundred eighty eight standards for a police department that wanted to become an accredited agency in our state. All those hundred eighty a standard you got to prove or you've got to provide the of. I'm over the program so you have to provide the assessor's over four hundred and there's for thirty six. Proves that you have to show to get your credit Dacian. Again we have we have over sixty policies forty percent of those policies cover the hundred and eighty eight standards the an agency has to go. In addition to that the the the J. as recognize the Arkansas association cheese please as credentialing body. Of to get. Ever agency in the state of Arkansas certified if the agency does not get the certification they do not get federal funds in this is out of the executive order by the president. Not too long ago enforcing this that he wanted ever of police agency certified by. Proving that they have a no joke policy in their department. And also say in that they follow all federal state and local laws concerning use of force. What we do is we have the agency to floor I letter request in addition to that they send in the policy that we go over to make sure that there is a note choke hold policy in their. So the change so she Asian is done all. Like I said we had a vision of the that we needed to bring more professionalism across the state. We've done that with Jamie cook I think we have some of the best law enforcement officers is anywhere. Of an across this nation and visit all police departments. Of every time we did accreditation I mean it is just impressive to see the in talking to the officers we interview police officers we don't just take their word and say okay. We'll check you off your credit. We talk to the officers to make sure that they know what accreditation is. And they'll tell you that the the purpose for accreditation Elaine for raises or anything like that it is to make sure the command staff the chief looks over his policies or her policies constantly to make sure that they're up to date. And if they don't do this on a regular basis they will not be able to get the re accreditation in three years. Because they can't just make up time it it's a difficult voluntary of program but it has been success. Thank you all for being here at the I know that it is a Difficult time to keep officers and two of our officers. The On though the frustration that many have of love that have one great records and feel like the they're under a microscope and that if they Don't even have to do anything wrong to to be accused of something and up the causes and to advise other people not even going to the field and all employers have a hard time finding people and on a law enforcement that's even more so. But you said something chief about a. Sometimes I think you said young officers sometimes were perceived most the maybe the word used as being rude. Right it is just a lack of social skills And that's societal problem which you know as you go to any. Any job in a restaurant as hiring of people and what is it even when you go to a restaurant and he gets a maybe a young person come out waiting on you you know may they may not be the most pleasant they may not have those social skills they went they may lack that outgoing personality and sometimes it comes across as being rude now don't get the wrong there may be rude officers out there but. We're saying in this generation of young folks that you know the the the the social skills are tend to be lacking and I've I've had I've had to get rid all through that had a hard time interacting with the public. He just a just fail to do so. And it's like you know if you look if you can get out talk to somebody this is your job day in and day out then you're not make it with us and that's a problem. But that's a problem that we're starting to see across board not just Jones world across country. And then we talk about recruiting retention. I got a hundred sixty nine officers seventy of them have been with this five years or less. turnover. It's called me about five million dollars. So you don't want to get a man we go through all this training and then they go ahead of. You know you get things going on across the country the scrutiny that they they've the good part of the microscope every day. But the things that they have to see. In Smithville and then do or ever day. You know how many dead bodies. You know that that that takes a toll stabbings and shooting victims. Dead babies. That takes a toll on a person. And then as they get older and crush the like I do you know sometimes you know you may not see same so empathetic or whatever it's not that I don't care I do care I would be here forty one years I may come across is. Just flat line a motion or some on the street this offer may have guests all something bad this turnaround stopped you and they might not be the most your your whatever person and you know at that moment because I guess it's got through doing the bad situation. So you gotta understand the gamut of emotions that these officers face every day day in and day out of a job. And then try to support their family. Mona sometimes a twenty thousand twenty thousand twenty three thousand year the dollar job. So the small departments. So to get somebody to do the job this is tough I'll go through fifty applicants to maybe get five eligible to hire. I will just hired to feel about it does to fill space I have a standard not dropping any standard for anybody for any reason you have a standard I have expectations about people. We talk about. doing what's right what's wrong. Six years as chief of terminated fourteen of them. However those absent their credentials to be the certified. I've made it clear to my people have expectations of you day in and day out you follow those expectations you do what's right we just fund you do what's wrong you disgraced everything I've worked for for forty one years and I'll take your right to be at all sure way from you forever. So I have no qualms about the certified anybody we do have we talk about the internal complaints most agencies that it really come up with these conversations most most agencies have a complaint department and you don't have to write a formal complaint if you send a letter in so Hey I had a bad incident that's a good point. If you if you call and go Hey you know a that stop in it didn't feel right okay that's a good point. Okay so I have an and total fares captain the say Hey take a look at this traffic stop in because everything we do is body kill men and video camera Cargill go back and look at it and see if there's anything improper. And nine times out of ten of the also may just had. Not bad in the best mood and that person this kind of the good that officers had an attitude. What is vacant property centered thing wrong about it just the perception. So that's one of my key words of life is is perception perceptions reality a lot of cases so if you could change your perception of what you do business sometimes you can change. Way people perceive you as law enforcement officers that's were we maybe if fail to sometimes we need to realize how the public feels what what's what's going on but it all begins with dialogue with each other you know if if you have a group of individuals has concerns the less than talk about it absent dental our local and double ACP chapter talked about traffic stops would expect traffic stop replying simple you know is this is dialogue we learn learn from the group the group large amounts this is why we have the citizen police academy program this is why I like community out reach programs it gets officers involved we learn from each other. The goal is at the end of the day is we've created a better harmony amongst our community. I don't get complaints of you know of certain misconduct you know we do over seventy thousand calls last year over seventy thousand. I had fifty complaints lodged gives officers out of that twenty five were substantiated. Now who's got better customer service in that Dillard's pennies two years now. Yeah we do things right every day day in and day out. But it only takes one back up in Minneapolis the tarnish the bears cross the nation and that's unfortunate. But this committee being here today is it's important to me. And I appreciate the time to coming down before the committee and I and I will tell you you know you have a lot of work ahead of you and I'll be more happy ever come back because you know I can get up and I think I can get on this bandwagon and and give you eight hours of it but I know under time constraints. But the work that you're doing is important to me it's important to the socialization and it's important to law enforcement across the state we all together we want to make things a little bit better than what we are today that's the end goal of this. We'll walk away at the end of the session and and things in this state be looking a little bit better than it is today. So again thank you all for your time. Chief the of perception. You all run a customer service company. And again I and I'm very understand. Bill. The things that officer city. The things are dealing with. Of don't know what might happen at the next traffic stop. and so it always tried among my appeasing cues Sir of. The. But I thank you for your for the state police and everyone that on the on that part of it. that should be a very important part of the training of the cut as we come back to some of the the friction. The. Of. You know when I was sixteen. Of are was pulled over. And the young overzealous officer of. Said that he pulled me over for running a stop sign. And set out and run the stop sign but I knew that he had been called me for some time because it stops on was miles before and I didn't know we had been falling until then. And he search me. He searched my car. And asked me if I'd been of using drugs I said no he has been but been drinkin I said no in the. And. A acted like he didn't understand me and I. What did you say in. Anyway. Put me in the back of the car. Ended up after it was all over gave me a ticket for on clock speeding. This one officer. But let me get sixteen with a chip on my shoulder absolutely. Of them was so a year later the what changed was actually I was playing chase. Of teenagers doing things we should have been doing of and that is another officer who happen to be black pulled me over of and for running a stop sign. legitimately and and he told me and he was very much correct that he could a written me a ticket for reckless driving. but he was just going to write me a ticket for running a stop sign. And hoped I would do better well I can't say I've done a lot better. Over the years but I did do better. And that changed my perception absolutely because because he had been so kind to me of when he didn't have to be because I was you know he had me dead to rights down time absolutely right and and that's why it by department we're not ticket driven we rope more warnings the tickets. It's all about addressing the infraction and then try to generate revenue and those warnings go alone lower way of building community relations and taken us with that person to person contact all I'm saying is person yes Sir you're exactly right it just goes back to customer service treat people like you want to be treated and that's the way we try to stress over day and that's are going across the state is you know folks we've got to do to treat people like we want to be treated day in and day out and I understand and I again I try to keep in mind that deal with hardened criminals are all in all kinds of things but so before go to these other people like you. When. Is it permissible to step on the street point. A gun at somebody. A. I didn't see it let situations or. I'm sorry I did not see that on that situation on the. Let's set that situation side the one we heard about who wins it permissible if you're driving down the road twenty miles an hour once a permissible for me to step out with a laser shot. Point a gun at chips but just everyday circumstance I don't see it. The so I know it's not and never went to we just got real estate part of routine business there would be for non law enforcement I know correct I'd go straight to jail the so that if I suspected unit committed a violent criminal act. That's another thing but it they didn't tell that scenario back that these folks that Hey sorry we had a vehicle matching your description the this is why we did what we did but that was not the case in their situation but you know this is that that's when that situation to come of its of the if it's a bill as well as the question I would never be a time but what would be the time so of okay thank you we're going to go to. Represented house up. Thank you Mr chairman chair of my question. Goes to a miss Kirk and missed whisper you can rely and I was going to ask you Mr science Mr Bradley and Mr call closure sensually the same thing. my background is military I know that the climate of the command begins at the top. back in the nineteen eighty six I went to work as an equal opportunity officer for an agency that was under a federal court order to hire federal employees from the minority community to the one. A ratio. A we implemented an affirmative action plan which was not the quota. But it was the plan whereby you pick out talented young people make sure they go to the right schools meet the right people get the right assignments and make sure they don't look like you and promote them up through the ranks. That's an affirmative action plan not a quota. Now my question is in your hundred eighty eight standards and missed when spoon for miss cook I'd like to know when you're training I'm very impressed with the a lady mid management and senior management training courses. Do you have an affirmative action program whereby are recommended program or do you teach affirmative action program where you can promote. Minorities within your organization to the top and set that climate that sometimes kind of gets out of hand in some of the departments. No Sir will have an affirmative action built in there are an eighty eight standards we we do require certain things to be checked off when they do all we require interviews and things like that but no as far as the affirmative action no Sir we do not. Thank you Mr. Representative Gazaway. Thank you Mr chairman madam chairman. Up first I guess let me say chief Elliott and to Mr sipes appreciate you guys being here today. the testimony that you've given I have I can say personally that I've had the opportunity to work with chief Elliott in the past and he doesn't excellent job and he and his department there in Jonesborough I work in Jones were on there every day and I appreciate the great job that he and his department do there. Also want to say thank you to the other folks who have been here they've given testimony on the issues of systemic racism institutional racism implicit bias all of those things they're very important to this discussion and I think why we're here today. And I wanna state at the outset that I don't believe that the two things are mutually exclusive I think that we can very much believe and and support addressing institutional racism systemic racism while also supporting our law enforcement officers. And so I think and I hope that everybody on this committee feels that way and I believe that they do. And so ultimately what I would like to hear addressed in an by both this groups at some point is what is the number one thing that we can do from each perspective. In the legislature to help you. What is the number one thing that we can do and I know from the law enforcement standpoint the pay for law enforcement officers is dismal and you guys have a hard time attracting a good talent as you've testified to here today and I think that as a legislature we like to say that we support law enforcement but at some point we have to put our money where our mouth is and we have a surplus this time and we need to be looking very strongly in my opinion if and say that we support law enforcement. Our money where our mouth is and so I'm prepared to do that but I'd like to hear from you guys exactly what is the what's the number one thing that we can do to help and then from those who are here and I've given testimony about systemic racism what is the number one thing as a legislature that we can do to help address that issue as well thank you. I would say the the to the right now we are currently pushing as hard as we possibly can for this accreditation. Of for ever law enforcement agency in the state come accredited because if they become accredited then they have policies that they have to follow in we we shouldn't have issues like was that was discussed earlier. On it it just makes the again it makes the upper of. I just wanted to go over there policy procedures we required that the the traffic stops or documented we require you to get statistical information on race age and gender. They have to send those agencies that are accredited have to send those in annually to our office. In the epicenter to the chief number one the chief sends us so the chief is forced to work. At the statistical information to see if there is a problem within his department. Then you won't have an excuse to the should know or she should know what's going on within their department. That's what we're portion for it's not it's not of the it's not cheap. Of the Arkansas G. socialization has to buy twenty five thousand annually to get our policies of bed it. Whenever a new Supreme Court ruling are when you guys rest of the our company looks at everything that came through in the update our policies everything the the stage statue stay wall is in red in our policy a survey of federal statute is in green and then we have blue color code the that is best practice which comes from you see peer perform or someone like that but these policies that we put up there for ever agency in the all they have to do is take it falsely off our website but there department name on it and change you know some of the the of a material that the fifth third part. Then I had all that policy of course and if they're credited late show proof that the follows balls so preservation in our opinion this is a big factor but you you hit on something else and I'm I'm going to. I was just asked the last month to advertise for Helena west Helena. For police officer position. House standard that they start out twenty six thousand dollars. So this this officer that was killed in the line of duty I don't know how long you've been there. But. AT sure he he was there because we love the job just like. Robert I mean that's the reason we got into. Senate it's really sad and I don't knows a legislator what you can do to increase salaries. But the something got to be done because we're not we're not getting the the hiring pool that used to come for back when I first started I was up against three hundred people north for all. Not anymore. Not anymore. just follow up on a little bit The centers ation the accreditation yes he's component and a lot of it goes back to funding then then the training opportunities as I mentioned before the criminal justice institute they do offer a lot of online classes that officer could set down his or her convenience and take these training classes but like my agency we pay sixty five hundred dollars a year for all monsters to be able to access this portal. So some of the smaller agencies just kind of for stuff like that so either we can increase CGI's funding where they don't have to turn around and pass the cost back on to the good consumer. And therefore more law enforcement officers can have access to this much needed critical information out there. So. That's our our two biggest takeaways and I think with better training more education than some of these other problems will also be address dressed in the but in the process but it goes back to again training and good policy and then the standardization of policies that's the big push now in Arkansas but across the country right now from the department of justice in the White House all the way down and we're Arkansas's very progressive in that we're we're actually way ahead of a lot of places in the country so I mean it's bad but guess what we're we're ahead of most and we're we're proud of that fact that two were very aggressive in this and have been aggressive in this approach of getting law enforcement you know to a more professional level across board again some of our smaller agencies across the state really struggle and your bear in mind half of Arkansas law enforcement agencies have thirty officers are less. So they don't have the staff resources like I have a Jones pro or the budget so they're really stressed you know financially and they're they're doing good just put body armor on their people. and provide just the social needs every day. Representative Richardson. Thank you thank you Mr chair of. Two quick questions for you guys of in one comment actually so when you just talked about some of the small agencies and and the challenges that they have I think that's why it's more important for us to understand the leadership matters. That if we've got cheese that are out there doing the right thing though small agencies that that trickles down and not just a small agency but even a larger one so I'm happy to see what you guys organization is doing which is trying to equip by cheese I come from a city where our chief is fantastic one of my favorite people so hopefully that will matriculated route the state of the question when a question I had is what has been Was been one of the primary reasons that you had people leave in your specific organization in Jonesborough outside of money was been a reason they've left. they just get fed up with the date daily ground of doing business of you know the again the things that they see day in and day out it wears on you know we average two hundred and eighty accidents a month in Jones world and you know often times those are for talent these and you know there's only so much bad things that you can see that it wears mentally and physically on them. And it puts a strain on and they just you know they get for five years into this and they just say I'm done I've had officers first not on the street roll upon a bad accident and next one go I'm done I can't do this I've had amend training you know before the completed trying realized I can do this. I don't want to do this are your you go to your first call were shots are being fired they're going I don't okay do this so there's a mental evaluation is done when you're high absolutely but after that yeah it's not how often is that take place we will if the officers involved any kind of critical incident that we have the value waited we through our employee assistance program with the the city we have a this program that and you can go to counseling free of charge the up to six times a year if you need more of that than insurance kicking on no questions ask whatever so we stress that on any critical incident that our officers go to counseling because it's it's we're finding now what's more crucial for retaining our officers is our mental health. Is just as important in law enforcement as it as it is the people that we serve every day mental health crisis in this country is horrible I would agree and you know. And when we have to deal with it day in and day out and we talk about you're now we have another educational component on crisis intervention training with our officers. In my last in house academy class that we did article added a week to that academy curriculum and certify those but budget officers and that forty hour crisis intervention training. Because we have a interview a crisis Stabilization unit there Jones world so I'm trying to read as many as monsters through that program that I can get through the program because what I got a facility here but guess what I got we we deal a lot a mental cases every day and you know you have true psychosis issues and then you have drug induced of the issues with mental health and then alcohol so you know our our social problems out there. Is getting out of control and you know but who is supposed to fix it police. And you will this officer with this amount of trying to solve your problems in your city. As does not happen folks. Thank you thank you for what you guys the best thank you. Representative flowers. Thank you Mr chair and Thank you chief Elliott and Mister Sykes for your thoughts and perspectives and I'm I want to start off by saying that. I have law enforcement my family I rely on law enforcement I'm a citizen and I will pick up the phone and called police if I need help for it you know at any moments notice and I'm also said publicly and I'll say it again that. Just like teachers just like positions if we want good people we have to pay a good people we have to support good people so I just I want that to be said at the outset. I also want to share with you that you know when I said earlier that I understood. The perspective but Miss Cool thank you that miss coolly shared and and when I said I understand I understand I was in this situation earlier this year I was looking at the barrel of a gun for the first time in my life. By police. And I also understood the dynamics that brought them there and why that happened. And it wasn't until two days later that I sent in my car broke down crying. Because I knew that had I done something that from their perspective looked like their life would be in jeopardy I could have been killed right and then all the conversations about you're making too much of this or you all are fine or that's so terrible it just would have been different and I think for to your point when you talk about how much police officers go through what they see. I don't have to see that because I have good police I have a good cheap my chief came and stood with me when I did a press conference in the capitol. So I don't doubt that you have an appreciation for what happens to people when they encounter what we just heard from Mister Pendleton Mr Lee or even what I just shared to but when that's my only experience that are generally have good experiences with police officers but then you see stuff on TV yes happen to people or you yourself experienced the gun. It's a monumental thing. You know so we're not talking about. Most police officers for all police officers it's when we see the. What some people call isolated or rare incidents for all the calls that you guys take and we want on television the full Landau Casteel incident or even right here in Arkansas incidents and then the immediate response that we hear from police. You know unions or at the chief of that department is let's wait and see how things pan out and then when there's an investigation nothing happens rose no accountability like heck I guess I would ask you how can. People in the community and and I'm not just talking about people of color African Americans because. We know that there are issues there are probably more issues of sexual abuse that officers get dean don and the certified on been issues around race so whether you're talking about poverty issues and class or with the time I race or the talking a gender and sex. When there is an incident in incident where there is an officer who has clearly done something wrong. But then what we see is ranks close and nothing ever happens. Like how can we change that because this is not about castigating all officers right how can we see real community policing how can we see real accountability. Well. I wish I could fix problems globally you know but I can only fix my community and those areas of concerns you know we address of very aggressively we have a complaint department if there's misconduct we deal with it and like I said earlier I have no qualms about firing somebody get in big under a certified. Of the complaints need to be investigated it's of A goes back to standardization and then we talk about this. Accreditation process all that is covered in this accreditation process those policies that you will do a B. and C. O. misconduct you'll do investigation. The standard as we had when we adopt this accreditation process it is standardized across the Arkansas. It is the director Sipe said the department of justice just sent out a memo if you see federal grant money. If you're not a credit dated age agency ever get more money. Reporter in simple I get a lot of federal money every year so it's to my advantage to I make sure we're an accredited agency we have been nationally accredited as an agency Nash on the national level runner growing state accreditation Ellen switching over to the state. So I policies or procedures in place many year and state accreditation that's not is. Taxi Gomez soon than those as of the national certification but I have I'm saving a lot of money cost a lot of money appeared to be nationally certified credit dated. So but there is a a cost to this and again some departments just can't afford that so a lot of this goes back to funding coming out of this body and that Hey we won't agencies to be to reach this level of accreditation we understand there's associated expense we need to more money to go towards that and I think. The chiefs association and the sheriffs association we're we're all the same track that we all we're trying to achieve the same goals here you know big departments trying to help the little departments we all want to get on the same sheet of music because you know any time something bad happens it looks bad on all of this so if we all collectively work together then it kind of solve the same problem so. You know we all have skin in the game for Speaker so it's to our advantage to help other agencies out with this process also. So. That's kinda where in addition to that one of our standard says that on an internal investigation it's to be done in a timely manner and the complaint it is to be notified. Of the of the alcohol. It is another thing about you know like. Arkansas has the one most liberal for the laws in the country you know what agencies were body camps now you thank you for your body cam but your your traffic stop fits you don't fit in go well then eight under Arkansas for reparation on our request a copy my video we get it all the time. You know we found the body cams in car videos it is cleared of more complains that and has you know brought in right that I don't officers cycle this OFFERORS route well this watch the video. With the say well he the same to have a the bill is having a bad day yes ma'am he probably was but he wasn't rude or say anything inappropriate I hate that he had that bad day because he may have worked some horrible before but. The bottom line is no one really rude to you so body camera programs you know what there's agencies out there if we can help fund some of those programs that would be huge you know every officer in in Arkansas if they had by access to body cam in a place to store that data that would be huge. because it it just cuts out the he said she sent or. You know it any allegations go back and forth and it keeps both parties both sides of the camera the on the right you know doing the right thing for the most part people do crazy things in front of the camera don't get me wrong but you know what leases video we are in one hundred percent agreement and I just would ask for you all to think about how. we could do better in the state not only in terms of funding but setting standardized policies for privacy issues that something could talk to me about when I did it was there there was a couple things coming at the thank you will be addressed in this legislation known of privacy on on Fauria we. As far as the victim's right actually you know not. Throwing them out there under forty request because I don't victimize a person of sexual assault twice by. Or is you know video being down media but more data storage I learned that that's one of the biggest yes data storage is you germane you can imagine hundred and seventy officers and a hundred thirty patrol cars camera videos you know we're having is cloud storage and across the. One four hundred thousand a year you know to just for data. To run the program. So when you get into body camera program to special large agency. No I'm looking at close to half a million dollars a year for both body Kael's tasers and car a car camera videos because it's all we use one minute factor the covers all three. So you know that when you get in those the these kind of projects it adds up and then the time consuming thing is. The reduction of the video before under for you before release a video furs information on there like a license return or any personal information for the person that you're dealing with the that has to be redacted out it cannot be released to the public anything that comes off AC also you with I can't go back on the video so now we have to go through an redact that now offers juveniles in the video and we're gonna go go through and and blur that face out of that video so then then you run into time issues with that so now I have to civilian staff that's that's a full time job is you know going through videos and and and and you know make of those available upon request and speaking of time issues we're gonna have to keep our questions and answers of brief from this point forward of moving on to represent calls. Thank you Mr. when departments to internal investigations in Arkansas either specifically of yours which is generally is there an external set of eyes is there any kind of a. you know second source overseeing or providing. Did some sort of guidance on internal resignations and also what's the level of transparency about the outcomes for these release publicly either an anonymous or otherwise so that people can look at the results and see how departments or during. If the what if there's a disciplinary action and they also receives a loss of monetary. By money pay the net becomes public record if the monsters this discipline by either reprimand or letter counseling the that is not subject to for you. Under state law early as far as citizen peer review type boards of. We do not use that we have in house command staff the reviews are complaints and the. The date detect to take care of the problem. You know it the the the concerned sometime is if I had it if you were seven account me Kevin and and peer review in your accounting work if you to refer not educated in that a lot of work so it's. Sometimes it it it can be problematic. I guess what I'm trying to get at is do you think there would be a different. Results if you weren't solely responsible for internal investigations if there were a second set of eyes or do you think it would really just be absolutely the same in terms of outcomes of these investigate like the outcome be the same because again what we're doing is you know. That's where we have to the department and then course mers office. I don't really see any different outcome if it's something of a greatest late nature then and you know the the public scrutiny is you know is the one looking at it and you have to answer to that. Thank you I will say that there. A lot of cities throughout Arkansas as a or or under civil service which or civilians and win the a or to help to disciplinary action they can appeal. And they can they can upload or they can this bills or like in and time to that this merry action. Okay we're going to Senator Elliott and then the chair on this one and we'll move on Senator okay thank you Mr chair just three quick things one of those is that I I do want to recognize and say thanks to chief sites and I by by get his name wrong cheap cooking backer of site close is the and the Had to approach the Democrat that they are black caucus the legislative black caucus about having a meeting which we did have last Tuesday in this very room and start to think through what of the some of the things that we can do legislatively to be helpful and move forward and it's I just want to remind I think represented Maddox is right this this should not be in and we should not be an either or thing all of us have a common humanity and A and we look forward to sitting down and continuing that conversation because it is absolutely crucial and I think the the other thing I just just wanted to make a point of this when we talk about PM for what we get I think that's crucial as well as we talked about the issue of pay for police officers and we as a legislature must decide what our priorities are and if we are going to improve quality of life hi the relationships that are healthy between the police and the community is that's one of the central things that we need to do and we can't do that unless we're able to recruit the folks that we need and then lastly I I would just thank you say once again how it it's how important it is that all of us have had these lived experiences and everybody's humanity matters but we're never going to be able to get past where we are unless we are willing to put some time into this and I know the days seem long of the. Mister chair and I really appreciate a stake in this time but this is this is a starting point but I hope we keep moving forward from here all of the cost this didn't just start with George Floyd you know up for all of the I want because we tend to think we say that and think we have covered something and the very last thing I've always said that we required to much of Moses public servants. Because I'm a public servant as a teacher I know what what people require they should not be required of teachers I see the same thing a police officers we required too much I want you to fix things that we as a public people have not bother to even broach one of the first one of the big things there is the race issue we haven't done it ourselves we won't do it we won't even talk to each other but they will expect you to fix it mental health we don't funded the way we should we don't treat we should but then we want you to fix it so I'm just calling on all of us in our state. All of us need to take some responsibility for how it is we come together not not with the police and not with anybody else one two one everyone of us has a responsibility we can't fix I issues of racism right here this committee but we can sure start a good conversation and I applaud the chairs for doing that but every single one of us needs to take responsibility and stop saying this just the way I was raised I can't do anything about it yes you can yes we can I hope we will thank you Mr. Chief. I'm going to ask you a question and the for you and for my colleagues is neither tried nor flippant. A but when we have a broad answer we also need specific answers of. Do you have systemic racism in your department I do not think so Sir. The Thank you for coming. Of thank you for being here and of the thinker but for the questions we are going to move on to result I hope I'm saying that right Aaron boss person the north little rock chapter in EE CP and Natalie James little rock carbon and I believe by clubs matter. Thank you all again. Go for main standing and be sure the. Got a green light lit there. Ma'am would you give us your name. Our lawyer and physician. Natalie James I am a local realtor and I'm also a mother and aunt and I am a local community activist so we don't really have a black laws matters chapter here organization here so we're not saying it as an organization we're saying as a mother as a I thank as a friend our laws matter the worthy their precious and we need to do everything we can as a community as people as humanity to save and hold on to that. And serve your name and FOR a position good evening I'm resale Aaron and although on the vice president of the north little rock right to then double ACP I'm here as a private citizen and local activists I'm also the chairman of legal redress for the novel right branch of the end of the city. Okay if you'll raise your right hand. Use almost were firm to test me but it will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes maybe seated would like to go first. All right I'm Natalie James again so we heard some wonderful wonderful comments today learned a lot of wonderful things and I just want to say first I appreciate the opportunity to sit here with you to listen to all these wonderful candidate since getting I can it's but all these wonderful committees and community community service providers in to everybody here we've learned a lot but what we have learned to ascertain from that is how do we hold everybody accountable for community relations that's the lacking that's what we're lacking discipline Dacian that were missin the foundation is like the most important part and right now we don't have that trust because. You've heard people make a complaint and nothing happens. We don't have that accountability to create that trans only need to figure out what we can do to do that so trust starts with the truth in it is with the truth so those body counts are extremely important like everybody's mentioning having the transparency inside the internal affairs extremely important which were missing having the community relations in those right along as well nobody wants to ride along with the police officer and see what they go through through their day today because the police officer riding along with the community to see what their day to day do they get out of their car and see what they're dated a they get out and say Hey Hey little Johnny. Hillary how are you doing. They don't. That is a relationship that has to be fostered in has to be nurtured in in any relationship you have whether it's with a man or woman are with the mother or child you have to have that trust behind in when it's broken it takes for ever to build it back so we have to go back maybe the therapy and create our own form of therapeutic action to create and grow that bond in that trust. Right now the community really relations and interactions with police is heavily skewed. We deserve consistency from north to south east to west we don't have it I'm a realtor I drive around and I know and I see it in a fill it so if I get pulled over in a certain area I know that interactions going to be I have to go in and have some not so good ones sometimes it's my fault lot of times it's not my fault. In that shouldn't be. We shouldn't have all these inconsistencies in the same city are in another city in the metro area I can be in north little rock all your at the stop sign too long why are you at the stop sign to a well my clients behind me the following it takes a little minute to get where we need to go wearing the right neighborhood well it does matter I think we are we get in there. All right I get pulled over another time I'm speaking. Well manager license registration all right one million don't need your phone to record this not knowing I'm on the phone with another police officer friend client he says Hey Hey Hey that's not how we talked women that's not what we do. Me I wouldn't be able to say that. What I see is different being a black woman in being a black mother. Then with a black male has to go through. They get the disrespect but we get more the blatant disrespect. And we should have that. Nobody in the community should have to ever feel like my voice is being diminished my characters automatically assumed by what I look like our which you think I should look like or what you think I should sound like. In right now. That's all we see I have friends that are don't speak the way that I speak I have friends a speak better than house Speaker. And they're judged off of how they look how they speak what area they are and that's how the police interaction happens that's not right we shouldn't have that so we're here today to sit here and say that. I don't know where to begin this is a beginning but this has been going on like Senator Elliot I think it's getting she said it it's happened for years before all of this it's been going on longer than any of us have been alive in the race issue. All the issues the police the spirits and issues that need to be addressed correctly in a timely fashion and we have to work on making sure that there's some type of accountability. I feel that if I do something wrong guess what I'm gonna be held responsible I get a chicken my insurance is going to go up I'm gonna have to pay more money and I know that their consequences. Qualified immunity removes those part consequences for those officers. That something that if you want to make their credit where with you keep having infractions of this nature. We're going to take your immunity away if you. If you have another infraction guess what we're going to start a fight we're going to remove your bond we're gonna remove the insurance in the longer work anywhere in the United States we don't have anything like that their consequences for me as a mother and as a realtor if I don't do what I'm supposed to the monetary the physical job loss whatever those consequences are happen on the skill to make the community feel safe in trust again inside with police officers are with the state police right now we we have to take this opportunity that is being given to us this time it's been given to us to restore and rebuild our relationships because those relationships are tarnished dispute this like going back to a cheating spouse they're not going to do it over and over and over and over and it feels like we've just. We can go right back to the same person the abuses and abuses as mentally physically emotionally because that's what it is it's mental abuse AS physical abuse that we have to visit revisit every day and nothing is being done to fix it tempore back into the community when that budget you don't talk about that money that you all as a great I pay my taxes for people I need to see you more I need to see what you're doing in the community so I can feel okay about men if you drop an action have to give him a car my real estate tax on it put a real estate shirt on him when he's going to pick up my son to make sure he's okay. Something's wrong with that. Just because he's automatically assume because he's black. And this goes back to restoring and refocus and mental acuity right now there is none when you go to target practice I do too there is a black. Target sometimes it's pink sometimes it's green and other colors up for the other colors but I feel that our police departments with little simple changes like that to refocus that Hey. Black isn't bad let's focus on another color are actually have target practice because they have to do it every six months make sure they're using something to where it looks like a human with different races have a white person all of person ten person have a black person so that way they're not looking at a blank target in desensitized they're saying this is a person and may be that desensitized desensitize entity that they're supposed to have comes back to that piece of humanity before they just automatically become judge jury executioner or whatever else not saying that happens here in Arkansas all the time but it does happen in their been instances where a door was left unlocked in a grandfather was shot because you walked into his house yes is going to shoot. There been instances where it had been de escalated but it wasn't this week in at the state capitol there were. Some call them patriots some let's call them bullies because that's what they where they come up there with their weapons to women who had a fashion show going on and pulled a gun on her I get a call from a frantic woman about a gun being pulled on her so I come up there. Guess who are state capitol police are protected. The men who were supposed to have their guns that are visible suppose haven't earned loaded nothing in the magazine. Guess who the protected I protecting the women the black one that we're having a fashion show in children practice in walking. No. Now they were protecting the bullies that were up there. The antagonize there's. That's unacceptable we do not have the same consistent behavior with color because that is the issue all around the board and it's not right so we had to figure out together as a collective what can we do to change it because I hate have money if you drive at night if you want to go to a football game and wants to take my daughter okay we're gonna go to the full K. drive my car. Make sure people know who you are make sure you tell them who you what police office is going to be there who's going to be working detail I'm calling to make sure my children are okay. Do you guys have you ever had the feel that. A lot of you have and we shouldn't we paid too much money and we should be able to hire the top talent we should be able to re allocate funds ninety fund reallocate from militarization into training for mental health and more whatever else is needed I can't figure out everything but that's what you guys know I don't read the budgets and all that but I do know that we have lots of funds or we can take them from and do we need to do we don't need a tank I don't think we've ever used the tank why do we have a tank that can be taken input into a mental health resources that can be taken put into more training thank me take any use in so many different ways since they're saying that they need more money to pay better for better caliber officers. I would take a better caliber officer over a tank. So. It's so much more to talk about but we only have a few moments. Some gonna leave it often missed in. Again good evening and thank you for this opportunity. I prayers are with Travis Wallace and his family and matter of fact all police officers that have been killed in the line of duty. To service to Smith who of for this is opportunity by reaching out and and my good friend Natalie James. I just want to point out some things that I think a critical in regards to policing and criminal justice reform first of all. the key to. Criminal justice reform and policing is relationships. And the key to relationships is to restore the. Of confidence and trust that the community has in police officers. And so I'm trying to establish a relationship between the police and the community the first key and critical component of that is to begin the whole police officers accountable. When we organized protest and we talk to people that we're trying to communicate for. one of the biggest things that that always comes up. Is the police get away literally with murder. Part of the issue is is that there are a lot of politicians. That don't want the statement of appearing to be anti police. And what that does is it causes politicians to always. Not all politicians a lot of politicians always favor police. In any situation. When you do that you continue to sow mistrust and a lack of confidence between the community and police officers. And so there's some things that can be done to rebuild that trust and confidence. Number one. There should be stricter or stronger. Regulations and criteria in regards to hiring police entry level police officers. Arkansas has one of the lowest minimum requirements anywhere in the country. Are not to the fault of the police officer they want the job their plan for the jobs fine. That's the fault of the legislation. And also classed. That the requirement is so low that nearly anyone can become a police officer. I respect people with high school degrees at. But why are people that have the authority and the right to murder us on the required to have a high school diploma to become a police officer. Standards should be again also. To require random drug testing at minimum at least every three years of all police officers. Psychological evaluations should be a requirement or at minimum every three years. I've heard it here this evening I don't want to take up a lot of your time but I've heard it said this evening that training. Is what's necessary to fix policing. Training is not the problem. Individual F. researchers are the problem. It's not all police officers I get it I used to be a police officer. The reason that I'm on the activism side of justice now because when I was a police officer I was arrested for impersonating a police officer. And I won't waste the details you can go will resume our inverse Jacksonville police department. And so when we talk about the changes that have to occur in regards to restoring the trust and credibility between committed to the community and police. What evaluation for example. Some of you may not know that there's a waiver that can be granted for certain parts of the psychological evaluation for police officers. Now when I was working on a master's degree in secretary cook was want to happen to be one of my professors. That's when I learned that there was a way for. FOR psychological evaluations. How critical is that. When we talk about these changes. Because of the work that that we've done in the community a lot of people believe that were anti police. They couldn't be further from the truth. What people is what we are. And so Then I am I believe Holly Dixon executive director ACLU is is is probably. I can safely assume she's going to cover some things that I would have covered and for the sake of time I'm not going to duplicate what I think she may come up and talk about. Made some notes just to make sure that I cover everything that I was interested in covering and. Two other things that I that I made in my notes one is Natalie James already mentioned qualified immunity. At the very least if you're not going to remove qualified immunity. Make police officers hold them responsible when it's proven that they've committed acts of misconduct violated criminal or civil law in regards to dealing with citizens. How you do that is creating legislation. That's service proven it's as simple as that if it's proven that and also violated policy minute acts of misconduct or violated broken up along the whatever damages the municipal legal whatever damages the the city has to pose. But but officer has to re pay or reimburse the state and the city or whoever pay those damages for the damages that that officer calls. Some states are even beginning to ask. Police unions to have police officers to pay for private insurance coverage. It's another way to hold individual please officers accountable. What if class the commission could be expanded to cover areas. Broader than what they cover now. What if class could be again to except complaints from citizens. In regards to de certifying police officers. Six. The rules are designed to favor police. And service citizen has an egregious complaints such as the a under Pendleton. They can't go directly to class to file the complaint. That's a complaint that should be heard to decertify a police officer for that kind of action. These are simple changes that can be made. To improve relationships and to protect the people. See because it when I was a police officer one last thing is that and what I would want. It's for my mac my act of misconduct. Two calls. Me to have to pay somebody for something that ID it taking food out of my own children's miles. And service center is about criminal justice reform. If you're serious about protecting the people. And creating a better relationship and environment these are just some suggestions that I would make. Four US legislators to do y'all can do this. And the better off we are in creating this legislation. The few a protest thank you going to see. Because we just want to be treated fairly. Hi to being abused and victimized by bad police officers and I'll close with this again to the family of Travis Wallace hers name mentioned once the western a police officer. And to his family. It's a tragedy. And all of the police officers in families that have lost somebody. Thank you for this opportunity. Are there any questions thank you all for being here Senator Ballinger. Thank you Mr. My question particular with reference the the removing of qualified immunity I mean that. I definitely get where you're going from I'm over here toward your left and it's hard to see for sure through this plexiglass. But you know we just heard and in fact we know the morale is extremely low with police force the recruitment is is is hello the that there are departments are having a hard time feeling those those voice now someone that can be addressed by the by money with someone we can't period but one of the things that for sure I think would be make it really hard to recruit law enforcement is it now you're gonna hold them legally liable for their actions when they act as as a as a officer so I mean it you know here is is policy makers. We have to figure out how how we get in you would agree that it's important that we have law enforcement out there that are you you're not you're not you're not of the opinion that law enforcement to go where I so so if we're going to do that how in the world do we make sure we have enough law enforcement officers out there. If now if they make a mistake while they're in there the practice they're going to get nailed for maybe more money than they'll make in their career making a simple mistake is making a simple mistake taken a life is not making the state in the. Actor is somebody's life that's why I said if you have some other type of leading up to that just like you have warnings you have different types occur to you have one two and three offenses and things like that and different levels in categories something like that needs to be into effect you shouldn't automatically lose your qualify you shouldn't you shouldn't lose it but qualified immunity. If the people that are paying you that you're supposed to protect and serve don't have that same qualified immunity I don't think you should be able to have that and still continue to do and conduct a search you've had it for however many years that you've been working in that had a police department you had it in you see how well it turned out it's not doing too well the morale use it is correct is low not just because of money but because of what's going on with this happened to subject themselves to so as not qualifying community this just the issue that's what people don't want to be a police officer getting a person who has had in a bad situation happen with the police officer well how not everybody wants to get back into that they don't want their family members and it I would me personally been a police officer is not high on my list of things to do you're right the money's not there but I would want to if I was because I did go to police training I went all the way through it and then I decided I didn't want to do it because. I didn't want to for my daughter I didn't would be able to maintain ours went to the physical mental passed in no problem so I know what all they go through I know what they see on a daily basis is not easy because our MTC of two and a firefighter seat and they usually see a farce and it's horrible. But qualified immunity. House needs to be removed because it has not been working and we keep doing the same thing over and over expecting something different one thing reasonable humans so we're movin in making another change creating another variable is gonna hopefully change and make a good outcome because that's what you do with anything any experiment you want to have different variables we have the same controlled variables for decades. Where are we now we're still having the same issue people are fighting back in upset now if you're being held responsible for your actions you're less likely to pull the trigger on somebody are do anything else bad our rest somebody that you're not supposed to because now guess what. Those three fingers are pointing one that could you not the one that your point at the person you did this wrong or what are you doing wrong. I would respond to that thank you for your question because I think it was a I think it's a fair and honest question and I appreciate that it here's here's where we are. To your point. Citizens. I held accountable for our actions by police. Five run up and smack somebody in the face for no reason the police are going to arrest me they're going to hold me accountable I'm probably gonna go to jail and then to pay fines and lawyers fees and everything else I'm held accountable as a citizen. Why shouldn't police be held accountable for their own actions why should taxpayers have to pay to be victimized twice we pay the police salary. To do the job to and some cases to victimize us and then we pay again if they're sued and lose because the taxpayer money is paying the municipal league to insure and to cover those bad actors. And so it stands to reason. That every person should be held accountable for their own actions and not everyone else. And that's the short answer that's that's the short answer in and and you mentioned the the money and its use of what the chief of police said earlier in regards to the association is what we have to keep in mind about some and I took some notes as I was speaking one of the things I noted is. Is there a continue to reiterate the fact that they needed more money for training here's what I heard. The police the police chiefs association. Sounds like they make money. To trying. And so the legislator legislators your mark money for training. Then that money that taxpayer money is going to pay the chief of police association. The train please. And training is not the problem it's the individuals. That are the problem that are not being weeded out because in many cases there being protected because the police are investigating the police. And when you have your husband or your wife or your sister your home board doing your internal affairs in that a turn internal affairs investigation on you. Then ten times out of ten it's gonna be not found. And so the system is designed. To make everyone else petty except. The bad actors. In the police agencies. They should be held accountable for their own actions because. If police also don't want to be police because they're gonna be held accountable. Then they don't need to be cops. Because what that means they're going to feel entitled right. Because they're protected no sweat off my back the municipales going pay this hundred thousand dollars and I'm going back to work tomorrow I'll be ten eight. And so. And imagine up I've got a niece and nephew five and six and I and I I'll close with this. We've got a guardianship and and and and before they could do anything they want to do. Before we got a. And then all of a sudden they rules. And once in awhile one on the sale and I want to go back to where I came from. And it's not because things are bad. Because there rules. Police want to leave because they have to be held accountable again they don't need to because I was I was a marine corps and later in the army. I served under colonel house. In part of my career as a twenty seven delta legal NCO. Military personnel. When they get in trouble. They do something wrong. Date checks get garnished. They have to pay. For the problem they've cost. And when they repeat those problems eventually they don't get kicked out. Because we don't need no so just like that. But the ones that learn from it because they and that money to go to the close of no more in fact with the one that does well because the paychecks again garnish. Many of them learn from their mistakes and don't repeat them because they have to pay for them. And so you the pay for men learn from. Or you don't learn from. And you get dismissed and then maybe in a realtor I have errors and omissions I make a mistake get the pay for if I want to follow my heirs emissions I can't and I think for that insurance so that if I make a mistake I'm protected if it's a little mistake if I make a big mistake and I have I have forgotten numerous things a garbage disposal settles one in there it wasn't I pay for it. I and on a third hurt document the came in and somehow the home more to us than on their I pay for the home warranty well guess what in between that time my client there have X. system went out in that home more to wasn't there to protect them get to pay for idea because that was my mistake do you think I made that mistake again. No forty eight hundred dollars is an expensive mistake and so with a child a teenager an adult when you make mistakes and you're responsible for those consequences monetarily physically or emotionally guess what you're less likely to make that mistake because the whole point people are going to make mistakes but the point is to learn from them so that you don't do it again that's what the beauty of a mistake is it's a life lesson but we want to continue to make sure that everybody has that life and right now everybody's not and we have too many people scared on people are scared and stressed they made bad decisions just like police officers and just like people that police officer like you said and then on the back all that person might I had a bad day they might a lost their uncle and they might not be able to articulate their feelings like other people because they have been afford that luxury to sit here and effectively communicate not everybody can do that and you're expecting for people to be responsible for their motions and their communication and the people that were training to do that aren't being held to the same level of responsibility something's wrong this person was belligerent with me what is to stop and ask why. Did just stop in and they didn't care I just have to answer this call with digit asking what else went on in their day we're in a pandemic people are losing their jobs their family members and their lives you don't know what's going on with that person just let that person doesn't know what's going on with that Cup but that's not the point the point is if you make a mistake a mistake under duress. Yes what you need to be held responsible for so removing qualified immunity is making a equal so that you think and remember about that life lesson you don't do it again it's it's simple but not simple. It's something that we all need to go back to being responsible for your own self because I don't want to pay for insurance for a cop for family that lost a family member that's were asking the people to do. That's not fair. That caught made the mistake I didn't why do me and my girls have to pay for that mistake that's not my life lesson that's not my mistake why do I have to be responsible for somebody else's mistakes when I'm responsible for my own actions in my own mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. But it's only a few who are not held responsible for their mistakes. Is that too much to ask so the boulder DO follow yeah I do so I think that's it I think that's a great point is that everyone does make mistakes so in an age of your of your real estate practice my law practice the the nature of of our of my mistakes end up costing money you have to you have to put in a a the garbage disposal right we pay for insurance a lot of things have to happen. You make enough money in fact you make enough money didn't go on long Forsman right that's why you you with their and your mistakes and up costing you know you have to. Put in a piece of equipment or pay a little bit of money. If they make a mistake then then in and you would subject them to normal lawsuit then there you're talking about the liability would be a not to put them so that they can make no money at all it would be it would be a foolish purely business to sit but what I think we still have an emissions imagine one. Imagine having a good bottle hold we can't talk over each other I have insurance to cover that we're asking for them to have their own separate policy issues me let's center Ballenger finishes question so so an error is in a mission for you is affordable because of the fact that the nature of your job like mine no it not all realtors by the same thing the average religious salaries forty two thousand not all realtors making his or but I'm out of money not all realtors can work overtime and get be paid professional pay not realtors have that or for that a availability I do a different type of real estate so yes I might make more than what the average real estate agent makes but I do more than what the average real estate agent does but the average real estate like the average cop central state eight makes forty two thousand and they had to pay for that same errors and omissions a new agent and they don't make any money that your guess what you make zero you still have to pay the errors and omissions so you're I'm trying to. Bridge the gap but same isn't to boulder Mr is only fair to all of you all. I think everyone understands all the arguments. To this at this point and we have all of us to have a long ways to go of so I'm going to move to represent house. Thank you Mr chairman chair could see resent. Of you said something that's intriguing I look to the room I think they're six attorneys here we're all licensed two school teachers. I don't see any of our doctors but we were all licensed to practice our professions. It makes no difference whether we are employed by big law firm private practice a corporation. If we make a mistake. If we make an air that serve at the clay a prohibited. Any citizen our client can file our patient can file a complaint with our licensing agency and it makes no difference to our employer is. But you pointed out something. If an officer makes a mistake. Only that officers immediate supervisor can institute. Proceedings to have that officer the certified for a lapse in. Legal moral or ethical judgment or perhaps not. the certified but perhaps just sanction them letter of caution something like that and and I had to decertify one officer up at fort Chaffee once upon a time and I forgot what the nature of the conduct was but it was pretty egregious. it's been number of years ago. So what you're suggesting is that a citizen. Is that the organization that certifies officers that citizens be able to report at the Comoro learned legal violations to them. FOR sanction ranging from letter of caution to the certification is that what you were talking about yes like the previous chief was here who said he does that yes. And and I know I know that they may Mason some concerns may come up in regards to frivolous complaints but I've also consider that and FOR citizens that file frivolous complaints that can be determined to be frivolous just because they don't like the police. Then legislation created to sanction that person whether it be a fine or or whatever he is for filing that from this complaint of and so that's something that can be done to also protect police officers from citizens that just don't like the police but yes to answer your question you reckon we get sanctions be body files frivolous complaint against a lawyer. at if you talk to you colleagues out to work them out. Thank you Mr chair madam chair. A see no more questions of thank you both of you for being here today and FOR to the discussion evidence of well I hope we can continue in the future. Of is Thomas Anderson here. I didn't recognize with the master. Mr somebody make this. Makes us see a green light on there would you the. The state your name employer position Thomas foundation for start police officer Richmond is Arkansas. Raise your right hand. You so much for a firm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do. Thank you full disclosure asked Thomas to be here justice Anderson justice of the peace and garland county and retired police officer from hot springs and a good friend of mine and I have no idea what he's going to say but the both those of I'd like man retired police officer who both from within the system of. And. also the system one of him to comment today so. Justice center some. thank you senator for invited me I've listened to a lot of stuff here this afternoon in agree with most of our. But one of the things and I think I want to talk about is probably police brutality. A bill when I look at the news and I hear people talking and see in the newspaper where people are being killed in my opinion senselessly. A. You know you wonder what's going on. resistance to George Ford's carries. Are you know are A couldn't understand house somebody to hold somebody down there was hand because of. The first senator in Bree and three or four other people standing around not center were. Just let it go all. You know somebody should have stepped up and stopped her. And when it was all said and done it for and I I don't I'm not gonna be sure this but there was only one person arrested that there may be a couple or maybe to. But in a I don't understand. How that could happen. You know are and then the little the other cases. And when I kill for making a binational you know. We've got. Like I'm trying to get this record or you know somebody might be offended but I'm like just all say well we've got people in authority chief of police for the command and staff. And they will sit around and let this stuff go on. And then you get to prosecutors involve Rudolph electors enough to prosecute people and then if they do they do it with the lesser Francis and I just don't think that's right. In order to thank you ever going to stop until people are healed accountable. You know you know we see this stuff going on across the country. And bills from the start you know what I can fee from it some of it being just for. Those that are not just for you know you see repair minimal charges file. The people. Get and then I go to court and they get minimum sentence I just don't think it's right in our state we're gonna hold people accountable A is forced the reform. A thank you is good I'd like to record it for the she'll read and may. Because if you leave million as an option. People may do anything. Five Frankford she'll it's probably a good good word for. But I just find it until we hold people accountable. Things are going continue as they are. We're open for questions Just a centers and I have a hard time call new thing but Thomas but first for and we're no longer. The. The when did you retire from the hot springs police force terror for March French police department nineteen ninety three. If I ask you anything that you would get you in trouble. To do you can refuse to answer but of. Do did you say sess systemic racism within the department them. All right. They're probably worse but you know it was just what it wasn't as noticeable is isn't three hours from now. Up the help but the dealings with the community from the police department. Was pretty good you know back when I police we didn't have hot springs was a city that never had a whole lot of didn't have a lot of problems to store with racial action of the novels were of so okay we had a good really working relationship with the four. And what and what do you think about now. Our Frank it's probably pretty good we director the last two to stick with the. Waving community pollution and a lot given out you know having options get out in and so and fragments with people you know that's order policies very stressed it worse their servants. By first and then protection later you know so. Well I will go to. Representative Collins put up in case I should forget to say this later if we could clone you you know a hundred thousand times I don't think we would have any problems but of represent calls thank you thank you Mr chair thank you address the centers and for being here today I'm glad you mentioned community policing because I was actually when I was going to ask you about It it how are you seeing that in action how do you find that that has an impact on how effective please can be within the community and how communities respond to police that is really good and all but when I first started in seventy three our. community policing was on her yes but before return the chief stored our hand still our community pollution I thank you I think it worked out for will I mean people got to know police officers were in their districts and better it was good are good relationships with acute sense are amended just worked to refine. Pollution new people in the area and. Thank you for. Thank you. Any other questions. Seeing none is there anything else you'd like to leave us with this is Anderson I just wanna see reform and FOR your to do better. Thank you so much for being here and of your A input as a former officer and especially as a blackmail and with what we're facing I think is imperative so so thank you for coming okay thank you. Is Travis the Martin here. Martin if you'd state your name employer and position Travis the Martin real estate professional I work for vine brick homes is acquisitions age to raise your right hand. DO someone's were affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do you may be seated. Thank you all for allow me to be here today I'm here to give respective of a citizen and kind of my interactions that I've had as a thank you with the police throughout my life among the forty one years old but there's been two times that I've had a gun pointed at me both of them in many interactions with the post office and I will say that I I have a great amount of respect for law enforcement officers and job they have to do but I want to give the insight as to what it feels like to be an African American male with a in in our society because we talk about systemic racism hi it says it's a societal ill is basically when you have these carrier actions with police officers it is basically just a of an effective what we have in our society as a whole in house we viewed In a it is last night at a pop by TV shows and watch live TV and watch the show costs what it follows Ellie post awesome swat team and part of what they were dealing with last night was the. Leasing and George Floyd thing and it was a moment when they were at a or a protest in. someone reading the last words that George floored spoke. And I knew at that my interactions that I've had with post offices those two times and effect on me but as they were reading his last words I begin to cry and I didn't realize that was still feeling some of those things and and I'll go try to be quickly because I know you guys have got a lot to do when you don't one of seventeen. From southwest Arkansas a little town called talent close to Nashville and her friend and I will come back Conway from a scholarship audition and we were passing to Murfreesboro Arkansas eleven thirty at night headed home and passed by to post offices in your car and get by them in lights come on they pull up behind this and passes were going or out so late and I was like whoa total over come from an as I walked push okay got a busted tail light is of a **** a bunch of the questions and they let us go. We get about two three minutes outside of town I see these posts lights coming. Really fast and unlike almost by accident only pull over and a pullover in one cargos and blocked highway off the other car comes up behind me both offices get out the goons one point my friend done was in the passenger seat and I'm drives my car the other one comes up once again I mean put your hands on the stand will start give me I'm scared out of my mind at this point because I really don't know what's going on and. He comes and tells me to put my hands on the car get out one are still as Donald on where A trying to figure out like what what is going on and so he said was you know he you have a tattoo stress me a different questions in about two who are was in we just had this section within two minutes ago when I got my license on stuff and so I'm like what would I do what's what's going on and just cut it short he's like well we're there's a warrant for your arrest out of. Washington County Missouri. For the distribution of cocaine I'm like oh my god what I've better left the state road left the state of Arkansas so I don't know what's going on and so they they get to the point I start asking about to have the tattoos and I'm I know exists does talk about at that time a live in tight lead Arkansas up on from here and so the you give us to the police station to take us back and I have to strip down and show and I have no tattoos this. So turns out they were looking for a German name second Stanley Martin who was seventeen he was six one hundred thirty pounds I'll DO you can look it would not have been a hundred thirty pounds this is great so but that was you know my first time having a gun put only in one side you know stripped down and showed me what me they they didn't apologize that are you can go and all that was my first interaction really with police on the on the on a matter like that and. So it at at that point I knew I would become a police officer I was mine corrections victory when I went to college I got a criminal justice degree acts received Arkansas police corps scholarship by my senior college in exchange Wisconsin's bill to give two or three years of service to a local police agency I was one to be a state trooper and so that's where I want to go bill after I got the scholarship no the hiring freeze at the state police for two years that was announced so I changed or want to know what the law school and so I went to law school and went to work for Walmart at the corporate office in real estate in so as that was ninety first erection police was January nineteen ninety seven the senior high school. Fast forward to January two thousand seven my great aunt to raise me back my hometown live in north Arkansas passed away and so I had to go home to take care of A funeral everything in. Headed home in a stop in mean Arkansas. A to deposit a check it our best bank I left real early that morning so we can go to a local branch so we stopped in mean and my wife and my cousin were in the car with this and stop and make the deposit and no is taking really long time at this window. As to you know just a deposit a check into my account lady finally comes back we leave well we get right outside of town. Police cars come really fast up behind me. I think or maybe there's accident I'm gonna pull over so I can give what is deja vu all over again if you if you stand so we pullover. Officer pulls in minus a pick up truck pulls in mind in the officer gets out and he's working with you regarding your car room sitting worse to gun. Like we don't have a gun in the car talking about a news that we got a call from the bank there's a gun in your car. There's no gun our car I don't know what you're talking about and so and I will say look we this this John means an older gentleman he visualize something wasn't right to be did ask search the car my wife who is an attorney it was her vehicle range that you know I certainly Carly I'm done anything so John will leave the car I guess to go make a radio call or something I'm talking to my wife and we really need to go we had done a thing little search so we can go and my wife being who she is no he's certain our car we have done anything wrong and so I. Nervous open the door to get out the car was pro was was a mistake I understand not thinking at the time I get out to tell office he can search the car. As I get out to see a gentleman with a rifle. Over the hood for a. At this time date they heard bank her done there checking it out we come to find out later after we filed a complaint with our best as we figure out there was something with the bank the lady basically was like we were black an all white town. We didn't belong. So she called in that we had a gun in the car. We feel the now we've use wishy weapon that's police against us I guess the collar forms wanting I guess you got for me was winding calling someone address into something going on so called the show. But those are my interactions with police and it was very traumatized. To this day I don't want a concealed carry hand I thought about it will get a concealed carry a permit because I don't wanna get pulled over I have a gun in my car. And at I just want to speak to the broader view of how as African American as African committee after American male how would be within society where are medically due to some places we don't belong. We should be able to go anywhere like anybody else we stood and said the pledge. Liberty and justice for all. We're all equal and we should be treated that way. Post offices have a very dangerous job we understand that. We just want to be treated like anybody else we treated. So I just want to share my experiences in as you guys do the very important work that you do. take that into account it may not be your. Experience in life but there is a portion of your citizens that I can have this conversation with an experienced the same thing. It happens. What is. Thank you. Thank you central. Well I I just want to thank you for your your testimony and sharing your experience here because we or when I said earlier that this is something all of us on a work on not just police that woman in that bank is an example of what I'm talking about. We haven't done the work ourselves as a society and because you've got these different ideas about somebody put a police in a position of acting on your own short comings whatever they are in the way she proceed view and that's what I'm talking AS one mention the public as a part of this because we we have mentioned that. You know the mental health stress some police officers and I've got to be real. The but on the other side of that the mental health stress the mental tattoos that you will walk around with for the rest of your life and I know what to be true I've been there. You will have those for ever and we're hurting each other if we don't figure out a way to get past that and so. Just like you I know they're just hundreds of thousands of others walking around. What do you do house if you are in an encounter now with the police officer anymore how do you deal with it I read it. What's happened to your mental state. I do appreciate that someone from the state police the law enforcement so they're working on something on what to do if your pulled over I think that's very good idea yeah I did feel encouraged by hearing them speak about the different training aspects to have in place I would speak because my my instances where in small rural areas to make sure that those we talk about finding that we have funding in place for those small agencies to take advantage of our get the things they need to be trains I know we've had some executive orders in the past about federal funding and diversity training and limiting those things I know some of those may change with the chain of reasoning Jean regime in the White House but in the state level. Please make sure there are small rule areas get the funding they need to be caught up with the rest of society as. All right thank you so much thank you Mr. Representative flowers. Thank you Mr Martin for coming today I appreciate your testimony in a. Would be remiss if I didn't point out that you're from pine bluff just a little problem now Hicks just a question did you. Did you ever think even in retrospect but at the time as well. Out filing a complaint. Or putting something documenting something and if and this is not a. In an and like you should have done it again I I think I have a point to make after but I'm just wondering if you did it and if you didn't do it why didn't you so what in the seventeen twelve seventeen have that encounter She just to run back with the Carly pulled us over with the to tell one without I had a car for five months and never had to get tail light fixed because nothing wrong with it. When I friend of mine who's there was an optometrist in in town and national they call the attorney was also the county prosecutor for the county I lived in and asked them was there something that could be done. He said looking at it it's just going to be viewed as they were doing their job. Coming from rule Arkansas when someone tells you that that's kind of what you go with so we didn't file a formal complaint because it was going to do that for what we were told they were doing their job. As far as the the mean Arkansas one. The officer was responding to a call. Even though if we had a gun in the car it was illegal to do so the system the state of Arkansas you can have a gun if you travel from county to county. Well that wasn't what was going on in the what we took it out we took that with our best they wouldn't tell us what happens elated worked at the bank they did say was handled the CEO for the the the bank sent us a hand written apology they asked us what we wanted as time will work for both work for Walmart because they were kind of time I would like this not push it too far the work here But they would they did hamlet from of Marvis standpoint as to you apologize and try to make it right with us and we didn't ask for anything we just want an apology. Thank you so much and I just like to point out to the mound madam and Mr chair. How important it was today for you to bring people forward to tell their experience and and put that on record I want to thank you for that and. And I just want to say that You know Mister Martin's not an anomaly Sometimes people wonder why these issues are so important to me I've in this wasn't here I was young and in Washington DC and. Watched an officer put a gun to my brother's head because he was being to flip it. and a black officer by the way. The value of human life and the equity with which we paint each other has an impact on how we treat each other has an impact on whether or not we file a complaint. We can file a complaint then because we knew nothing would happen and you've heard that is a constant and I can tell you that. A former. Deputy of chief of staff for the governor of this state has been treated the way you heard Mr Martin treated by the police. I just want to say that I hope that we take more opportunities to hear from people. share what happened not to malign anyone. And not to paint a broad brush but to understand that this is not an isolated incident. It happens most African omit American men I know have a story like this. Most of them. So thank you for hearing people today and I hope that as a legislature we can come together to figure out what we can do Not only with law enforcement but with individuals who try to weaponize police unknowingly they don't know they're being used I think that they are confronting the situation that is dangerous. And that's what happened to me and I would be remiss if I didn't talk about it not to be generated tension it's over and but what I know is that if I weren't a legislator I wouldn't be able to hold. People accountable for their actions in the incident that happened to me. And earlier this year and I shudder to think what happens to young poor. Black boys young men poor black girls who encounter the same things and feel like they have no redress no one to talk to no form like this. So when I tell my story and ask these questions I'm doing it for the benefit of my colleagues to understand that this is not just about blackest of not just about women is not about poor it's about all of it but it happens more often than not to black men in black boys we've seen. These instances and with them being in the street in their mothers and fathers having to bury them we all have to do something about that. Thank you. Mister Barton thank you so much for coming and sharing with us today. Thank you. Of. Holy Dixon executive director legal director ACLU. Hello state your name our position Holly Dixon I'm the executive director and legal director for the ACLU of Arkansas raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I will maybe see to. Thank you. It's been said but I am deeply grateful that the committee is taking up this incredibly important topic and appreciative. For the invitation and the time I was asked to speak to a statement the ACLU issued this week. but before I address that statement. I want to give a little insight about where I'm coming from in my remarks and behind our statement and I've waffled about whether on I want to share this but it but I'm going to. I'm a lawyer been a lawyer for twenty years. Before I went to law school I was a radio dispatcher for sure of department here in Arkansas. Out all the jobs that I've had that is easily the most challenging stressful intense and deeply educational position. That I have held. Had a larger responsibility within that also had to oversee the women who were house in the jail there. But the most fundamental obligation that I had was to serve as a laugh one to the community. And to the officers for whom I dispatched. Was a rule agency we watched over city officers as well as shares department officers. And it's an experience for which I am deeply grateful. When I became an attorney. Some of the officers are dispatched for I represented a represented many police officers. And I've sued police departments for civil rights violations and constitutional rights violations. And I share this. Because. It always pulls back to a sense of there are two sides to this and there are not two sides to this this is a multi faceted. Issue problem in our state and our nation. Race ethnicity. Socio economic status knowledge who you are and where you are matters so much. And how your encounters with police with her now. So. To the issue for which I was asked to appear. This week the ACLU Arkansas issued a statement. In response to public comments. From the Marshall chief the stock market chief the recent cheese the recent remarks from the now former Arkansas county sheriff. But the call to action was not new this is something that we have been saying for a long time what is new is that. The legislature responded thank you for that. What we asked for was systemic reform to policing. Including a state wide standards board to take complaints from the public we heard Mr Aaron represented house discussed this before. Ask for for a long time. Almost every profession in this state has a statewide standards board to whom the public can complain if there is a violation of standards. Doctors lawyers nurses therapists realtors dietitians bail bondsman geologist beauticians Herberger's pool cleaners all of these professions have a standard for the taste complaints from the public. The commission on law enforcement standards and training does not. And this is incredibly important especially or we help you if it's a person in the community that wants to complain about the police department that where they live. They may not have a chief of police that they can trust the chief of police may be the problem. Even if we expand the power of cholesterol have a separate agency to take complaints from the public there is still so much. Reticence and fear on the part of people to follow form complaint against police. And I have advised many clients and potential clients about the potential ramifications of so doing. When you have a homeless woman who has been beaten up by police who then stole her knife. Do you advise her to go down and file an internal affairs complaint when she's still going to be living on the streets of that city. It's dangerous and people know that it's dangerous. Bad officers will retaliate against those who could file complaints now. I'm not beating up on officers by saying I think we should accept complaints from the public about them. Because out of all the professions that should have a standards board that takes complaints to the public this is the most dangerous for police that they do not have this. We have left it so that the profession really is policing itself. I can complain that I think another lawyer has committed an ethical violation and I do not have to worry that I will be on a domestic call in the middle of the night and I won't get back up because I'm a snitch my life is not on the line when I report a collie. Yet it is when you are a law enforcement officer and they're put in an incredibly unfair position. So not only do. Do we need this four civilians we need it for officers it is a public safety step that I would love to see as take yes we should maintain the due process we have to have to process in the system. we need citizen input in that system as well. I can understand. There could be some reticence to to doing it because. As soon as you open the complaint line. It's going to begin to be flooded with complaints. But see. Let's see if we're afraid to open a complaint line. Let's start with the worst of the worst. Fatalities abuses of force perjury theft anything that we can be considered a crime or civil rights violation even begin in a limited set of areas but expand the power of an agency to oversee our law enforcement for the safety of everyone is our main call that was the main point of the statement. And it can help serve. As a backstop in communities where the problem starts at the top with the chief or with a share. So. I just ask that you strongly consider this request there's a professor at the. In Saint Louis University name Roger Goldman who is the nation's expert on the decertification is in doing it for decades and he's been incredibly busy this spring and summer I think he could help advise the state and I thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you Mr in any questions. At another time the sticks in our would I have a lot of discussion I think you brought up some very important points of but because of the lateness of the hour of I'm just going to say thank you for being here and at into discussion being on the record of I'm going to go to Scott Bradley executive director Arkansas sheriffs association and whoever you have with you. Or whoever's here in his place. Least one of them can arrest me so. And wanted to be gone a long time ago for the German on large kind of share John Staley standing on the legislative terror shares exact of association. Rodney rights link on here. Thank you if you'll raise your right hand. The songs were firm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth attest maybe city. May proceed. Both ladies and gentleman I could reiterate. But the chiefs of said. There's some good points from many of the other speakers there some horrible things I just heard. I've never experienced that. We talk about perceptions and realities. Person's perception is the reality. We're here to answer your questions. we're like the chairs this is your elected were elected by the people we are the people. We do things different and law kind of we have recovery we have Community I reaches what places do that were more vocal about hours and let people know what we're doing. We're here for you we're here to answer your questions other fundamental things omitted change yes here reform I think it's a ball I think we need to change with the times and catch up. lobby will talk about the budgeting of funding. We do we have budget crisis in our county right now there's no funding directly for long portion comes from the general fund. Our goal is to To do the best we can to protect everybody we can and we do so much more. I'm. Again we can't sit here and we're not gonna sit here repeater thing it was already said so I guess what we want from you all these questions and how can we help Better this problem I think Jamie Kirk and and service plane has laid out pretty good with Arkansas is. Are you doing and I think that were again we are way ahead of the curve so if there's anything that we can do or answer any questions I would like to say that the the qualified immunity earlier with represent Ballenger. I think we're gonna get the order of a raw deal in on that conversation In a. Up we've got all the good that this the that if you break a criminal law you'll be charge of that book. I think there again a little confused on what qualified immunity was. Karen. Senator Ballinger. Thank you Mr chair that yes I feel like like there's a lot of good issues been brought up in almost every speakers as it's come down or person the witness to test five come down and said I appreciate law enforcement you know they have a hard job and I and and I actually appreciate that I'm I'm glad they're it knowledge in that but then it seems like almost everyone of them has went on for you know however long beat the crap out of the profession right at it and you're not I get it like I'm not questing their experiences they've had bad experiences that led them to to have the the view that they have of it in the and that is the lead them to believe that this the system itself is racist and and and I and I get it like I I understand that and I and and I'm also don't want to say there's not any room for improvement like you guys said there's room for improvement. But what we have is we've got a time when we see lawlessness abounding we see violence we see all these terrible things happening and we also see law enforcement who are at extremely. Low point they're extremely busy there's not enough of them and the morale is down and it's too easy to go to work anywhere else to make more money and now we're talking about trying to pile on top of that to make their their job more difficult more more more miserable were more expensive right and so you know I I'm I'm sitting here and I was everyone story and and they're compelling right there the movie so I text a good friend of mine grew up in in Arkansas black man and I said you know it's just like your experience you know I have you have you had negative interactions with law enforcement he said you know at one time I did it had nothing to do with race he said I I really don't see from my perspective people around I don't see it as an institutional problem I see it as you know the probably are places where where the interactions are worse but you know in my my time growing up who grew up in rural areas in Arkansas he's not seeing it and and so with its base me say like look I think that everyone stories legitimate everybody is seeing the story of its kind like a person looks at a pyramid and they say no it's a it's a triangle but if you look at the right angle at the time and if you look at it from the top of the square you know everyone is telling the truth I don't think anyone is lying about their story but I do think that there that what we've had is basically one side because law enforcement you guys can't come say what I just said because it looks like you don't care looks like you don't wanna change you just can't do that it what I would just want to say is in and I'll try to turn this into a question best I can. But does all of this have any impact right does all of this when when you have law enforcement who are who are doing it not because the money is because they they care they really do want to protect and serve I know that's not everybody there creeps in every profession I'm a lawyer I've heard there's a few creeps in the law by profession right that it happens everywhere right but but the most of you guys want to prevent protect and serve and yet when you feel like you get beat up all the time doesn't it just like at some point do you are you hearing from from your your colleagues like look I don't need this I can go do something. Absolutely I've been the law for shift for going on twenty seven years and I recently made this this comment to a bunch of other shares I'm glad I'm on the top of the tail end of my career. I would hate to know that I was coming in a law enforcement right now with what's going on okay a twenty one year old son that was his he's got a servant heart he was trying to decide which he was going to be a fireman or policeman yes rush of the. So yes it's it's it's hard right now and it's even harder when you're hearing about that there's going to be possible legislation Brecht bring in new laws we don't need any new walls for law enforcement I'm gonna book again this thick that applies to us it applies to you we don't need any new laws on the new legislation. I mean if that if that that if people think that's the simple fix is to create a new legislation. On your own. It is wrong. We've got our current laws or are good. And they apply to us yes this is that they party you. To add to that the when we talk about the laws it takes good leadership and it takes leadership to hold people accountable thanks to. And I think what everybody you're saying I think it's we need to unify. What the share Sam what you're Sam would everybody else in this room is saying. Some accountability. Do it right now it's easy. Caesar seven done but you have to have adequate leadership. But Alice leader and law enforcement in Arkansas and we are. We above other states justice institute is amazing it has black Lawson funding does cost or agencies money you have to the literal gets down to hundreds of dollars the cost my agency thousand dollars to be a part of them I have to decide with that thousand dollars go toward body cams right now like I said we have body cams we need body cams in only protects our officers from from. Untrue statements but also protects those who I hold my guys accountable I I've I've so the share for most of our share to do I can't speak for everybody. But I'll tell you want this body cameras have helped me. prosecute officers I just got it a court Monday on offer the stole two magazines for a weapon from a police department allows us to use our facilities. It took about a box using them. He sent you okay we're going to be the certified I have no problem hold people accountable find from expected to hold you accountable or your you accountable I'm over self accountable we all make mistakes. Offers make mistakes. Let me tell you how stressful this as I have eight hundred thirty six square miles three to four Japanese a shift. We have over seventy six thousand systems we have one major town which is Cabot about twenty five thousand citizens so. We have a majority of a. Three Japanese. You can leave here and drop the lone oak so the. The former regular drives and that's not part of a county but. It takes awhile What chart is your we're paying those guys they start at about twenty six thousand a year average about thirty two thousand now. The same the hard part are all one person also includes our jails. I just it makes a Levin dollars an hour you know that's going to be in January. Minimum wage what we do. Respect in these people and we don't have anybody in our jail that's misdemeanors tips it is a misdemeanor domestic battering we have. Eight in our jail. House of a hundred fifty with the covered up to about eighty six to ninety we have eight in jail right now for capital murder. In another the. Earnings in the building saves your innocent approving guilty well we've we've done a case I we believe you're guilty that's for the courts to decide with your innocent we're saying you are. These people are bad people. I had a higher eighteen natural kids to do this so we talk about funding it is funding we were going to get a set standards we also get set center to pay I can't Bragg honor our Mr with a spoon and secretary cook there doing amazing job doctor show may is doing amazing job we've got a bill for to send our guys I have three to four depositions one of maybe six three. I may have a vacation the gonna take for mental health you got to take a vacation. What we do. I work twenty four seven when I leave here and go work of my guys for a little bit because that's what I believe leadership as they've been out all day they they work twelve hour shifts Friday Saturday and Sunday. I think we wanna answer questions we said to get unified we've got to know what the problem is and leadership in law enforcement and you don't get much higher than the sheriff in the county we're here. We want to help we want to know I need to know your story I need to know your story your story before I can ever know. What the problem is in our communities you've you've told me some things that that's never happened to me but the German here on I'm six foot offering around not much happens to me you know of not get bullied. Some people do that's why we're here that's what we want to hear you so talk to us. Central. No I I have a question I'm sorry oh sure from Salim cannot I didn't get your name I'm sorry it's running right up I share price in your and your comments when you said that people had the The qualified immunity wrong I would like to hear from your perspective as well what what you consider it is an and what they got wrong because that we will have a round that conversation and then the second thing while you're at it so it will have to come by the microphone maybe is that you said we don't need any new laws we've got enough laws but if you would share with me what do we need because that's part of we know what we want to work on okay one of the last the last question first. No I don't think we need a new laws one of the German earlier said we just need to be communicating better. But when he said it he said it more toward law enforcement officers need to be better communicators and so. It's two way street. We don't if the people that we encounter and I wish to Representative love a still here because he made a comment. Earlier about. Education and he was talking about the driver's license or the driver's test and so forth basically telling people and show you how to act when they come in contact with law enforcement traffic stop. We're going to communication and and making things better. That's what we need but we need your help Senator Elliot. In and Representative love to be involved with that because it it doesn't do any good for and I'll just give you a brief example in two thousand sixteen I think it was a meat three videos and I put him on Facebook and was basically they were traffic stop videos and they were what to do when you got pulled over if you have a concealed handgun or just a record traffic stop it was an education videos. And and center well said it best if these people there these young people and I give the same speech to my twenty year old daughter not give it to her since she was able to drive of what to do when you're pulled over with from a law enforcement officer. But I think that's that's how we make things better we don't make new laws we we create what what Representative love talking about was communication when we create educational videos with you involved with him involved with people that can see SBI the people in the car and they can explain what needs to be done because again you are people of influence. They're going to look at a law enforcement officer simply. Okay he's he's tell us what to do again. We need help. Explain in the US and have better communications both sides of the table you never have a one sided fight there's always two involved. and so many times. In order to get another example about that is so many times. We watch the last thirty seconds of these videos that our nation wide. Do we are what's the first thirty second to the videos to see why we got to the last thirty seconds while we're all talking about it if we were to address the first thirty seconds odds are we never would have had the last thirty seconds but we don't do that because that's not that doesn't give ratings it doesn't sell newspapers that's not what what the media is all about and that's what they that they don't they don't want us to see the first thirty seconds of all these encounters that goes back to my. The point where the German said Hey we need to have better communication. But he wasn't talking about the other side of the table he was talking about us the law enforcement side so I'm reaching out to you and each one of you to get involved and help us spread that word that it is about accountability is about compliance it's about education. Again so many times. We're looking at problems are going on or around the nation. And we're trying to fix. Problems there here in Arkansas but using those a examples. And we all we all should look at those and and and one from home I agree. But again so many times all those are secure because again we're looking at the last thirty seconds of these video so we're not looking at the first thirty seconds these videos and and that's what we're all making me make mistakes I believe that your to the first question. You know qualified immunity it doesn't protect you against criminal it's a set it's against basically civil what abilities but it when an offer that you're trying to make a split decision based on what he thinks is ride based on how he interpret the law which was written by many lawyers probably in here that's what it's protecting if you walk up and slap somebody inside the head in your police officer and in the street you're going to get charged it's not yes not a get out of jail free you can slap anybody you want to know there's a charge for that. so I I don't I didn't understand what they were all getting that appear fight about it That that's why I say I think they got it wrong. So what what are you saying though that what does. Constitute a reason that you should have qualified immunity since the they're saying you don't. While should should we have yet does some John did Paul Rockwell okay you got you got an office right here that's on the streets to trying to do is job that. What he believes he is doing he is correct in what he's doing but mistakenly makes a mistake. By either policy or the law that's what is protecting I don't think it needs to go away because against like represent Miller said. If you can't take. That way and these officer here they're trying their best to do this this job interpret a law. That. Again how does it up to interpretation. And they're trying to do the best you can't take that away we're gonna have a hard enough time finding qualified people to work in a sense of protection but it is they're trying to do their job at the end that the answer do wrong first criminalist there's charges that'll be brought against them. Can I add to that. I think what's missing and in our conversations. Quality means not just a blatant protection the courts here it and they they they rule on how they have a hearing for qualified immunity to ask. How is the mistake made was a malicious wasn't unconstitutional if there's a constitutional violation qualified immunity doesn't protect us exactly that but there's a hearing that had in the court the court there's no qualified immunity law it's a it's a. It's what the court looks sentences what when a reasonable person doing disposition. You know we can look at a hundred different cases and you have to look at each case on what they're elements were when you look at those elements if the if the offer. Committed a constitutional violation and and and a crime. Qualified immunity is not gonna protect them and I think that's what we're missing I think we're having the right conversation I think we need to take more time to do this because right now I know everybody's late but to answer that is there's a lot more to qualified immunity qualified immunity. Then what we're talking about here we we we need to set down and say Hey let's go by point by point by point what is qualified music was first defined that what is the course definition of qualified immunity. It's not a blatant costs and go to where they want now I understand I've heard some stuff today. That fires me up there was people work for me. I don't put all that stuff and I just don't have proven to that result earned a number well he's a live on our county and. He said I don't put up with things that don't go right I mean now do my mistakes there we always gonna agree what's right with. Probably not because we're all humans will. I Rumanians are what I said before perception is our reality so what we lived in a Senator Clark said earlier what his perception was and I can take what you said and. We are all. He said there's no systemic racism last night when I got out of what he said when it was in his life there was in my life there wasn't I wasn't raised. My dad mom didn't use racial slurs and house we we got along with everybody we my mom cut hair my dad was a policeman they got divorced I was real young because things I didn't even know. He was an alcohol and my mom and I got divorced his abusive I never seem. Didn't know it. shielded you know she racing right. A single mom raising me as that that later. Would be what I am today without a step down my dad was good to me just not there. Nobody knows that. The qualified immunity we need to define it when you sit down talk about it if there's something like the board of I I get that I understand people want to file a complaint with a share. How here and I'll have somebody investigative. Well sometimes I don't feel comfortable coming to the sheriff's office is kind intimidating to some but to me I'm just John when I see your receiving center Representative. I'm John. But I forget the disposition holds a an authority. And intimidate some well John I want to thank you for for you for your comments and both of you I appreciate that and I particularly want to thank you for what you said about no one other people's stories how much that helps you understand the first I do think known each other stories will definitely help with communication but it it it and I I want it I do I am very concerned that you not walk away from here thinking that because we have what we talked about in the beginning it is hard conversations sure that is the down on on police officers because I don't want it to be perceived the other way than the public saying that what you have to say is a beat down the public sure because of weak if it's that way we will never get anywhere we're team every time we have hard conversations I don't think it's possible that we're not gonna have misunderstandings I'm not even have feelings hurt but I think it's important enough that we do it and just try to find a way forward without assuming the worst of one another I think that's really important I've got to know your real well over last couple yes. I'm gonna miss you yeah. Yeah you do. The review of the flowers. Thank you Mr chair arm I just wanted to ask both of you the questions that I had advanced to the police chief and the police chiefs association director. You know. In to your point you know about new laws in needing better communication I think that's a point and I think it's important and I think we're all here not trying to beat up on anybody but to share information so we can do better I mean that's the bottom line I think how we do better I think is the sausage making process that comes after the conversation and. You know we see. What happens in other areas in the state of Arkansas we could talk about cases that it happened right here Pulaski County in Jefferson County so it's not just you know these incidents that occur outside of the state but when they happen and they seem few and far between those are the end up with somebody dying or shop but before you get to that it's those incidents like what I described my experience was. Where you know Hey nothing to see here all's well that ends well you know you have conversations afterwards. It may get a little press but she's alive and nobody got shot and you know whatever right the lady who came out and told me I didn't belong in the neighborhood while I was standing next to my own car. She's older lady it's okay that whole thing could have gone a completely different way and when you're in I guess when you're in a community where you hear about it if you see it. Those things it but just up to. You know sort of a fatality I guess my question to you is. Outside of you know passing legislation. What what can you say you need help educating the public you know from legislators maybe community leaders but. What can we do to make sure people are held accountable because they're not everybody's not like you that says online to certifying anybody I don't want anything going on in my shop especially if it's a smaller town most of our departments are smaller transfer apartments. How do we ensure accountability so that those. What seem isolated incidents but in the life of someone who has been protected and doesn't know what it's like to look down the barrel of a gun and you know any violence is horrific in my world because I don't see the worst of the worst every day that's not what I get paid to do you know I mean even if I do a ride along that's a right along. So how do we. How do we address the issues around communication and accountability without it becoming a beat down conversation or uncomfortable like how do we just do it this is my opinion yes and my opinion is we do things different accounting we go out I'm elected by the people decision or you know you go knock on doors because you want to get elected. I never stopped over they say never stopped campaigning I don't believe I ever campaign I got I'm not told people who I will. I was a small town police chief. You know any. We started crime watches in our Clermont as were different we facilitated every meeting we we still do that as I took over share England Arkansas very southern part of a county we meet up with Jefferson County and return Caroline. We got a call and other chiefs of halo there's been some fights come down so what we did we can come down as a police forces a sheriff's office with tactical vest now we had on. But when I pulled up down there I took mine on house in the deathly that was with me is what are you doing I said personal criminals here we're all saying we're all people white wine green or purple let's get on with talk to these kids. Let's play basketball now I'm the size of them round like a about school now so it's still more difficult we got out we hung out. That's what it takes it takes getting out to party committees and our shares offices or doing that and our police departments are doing that that's what we've got to get back to when we talk about community or in policing. That's what we're supposed to be doing in Arkansas we we should be out with the. I don't know many citizens in law kind of the don't know share Staley most uncommon John someone to school with me I'm forty one tomorrow and some people are fifty went to school means people are twenty five one school me they don't know me they they just if they know of the name and. They can approach me and tell me what my Facebook as a blown up today Hey sure I need to give you this information that I need to talk to you and when after a mystery they say Hey John or have Hillman Miller deputies on the other hand like last year. Well. They're used to it now. That's what it takes and answer questions we we are the community. And we're seeing this too often that it's you know even as we say sometimes two or talk about the disagreements this I'll table that set table there's no table. We've got to get together we got to know each other you've got to know me you got to know that this year. You've given me that authority the voters to. that's not who I am. A person to. Is that please or when they do wrong leadership has to hold him accountable. A source starts your mares and you have some issues we we I would have to get behind. I hate to put it on the senator cook and direct will spend Hey eight hours academy within two. Almost of the lab order when I saw on a yes Sir and. They they they that's I can tell you Mr Wilson's talk more cops in this state that's why we are in a good shape we ought we are in good shape if he taught on they know what's right what's wrong. So we've got to do and then accountability office I believe that we could. I'm I'm good with that. Well and out on a follow up missed four hours that I will have heard several stories appear and and I think the question was asked each one did you file a complaint. Well if you ya know if you don't know about you can't fix it. and so I I would encourage if anything if you've got a a complaint about complaint Follett as a share if I don't know that that one of my deputies is is Messin up or or had a bad encounter how do I fix it. So I mean I get that everyone's probably get a story but if. It's simple simple of is your business or anything else if if the supervisors are not aware of it house to get fixed. Well I'll I'll close with the well because I think we have we have room for more conversations but from what I heard today. There were there was there's a real fear and it's justifiable it me filing a complaint is very different than. You know the average person or not the average person someone whose impoverished or someone who's been in trouble so you know I think that that there's room for conversation about what do we do for those people because when you have an and in a profession that police is itself. And you're relying on people I mean we we saw case and I won't say the name we saw a case a little rock where an officer's father was killed by one of his fellow officers. And that process. Was not handled in the way that that that it should be handled according to the books right. that officers who who shot the father her husband was a police officer and over command and determine what would happen so a lot of times things like that can happen even to people who work in the department and when you see as a citizen but that's how it goes for someone who is an officer I'm filing a complaint that's you know to me that's a suit for when I talk to young people to young people about get home alive you don't know who you may may not know who you're dealing with they could be great or they could be about officers but put your hand on the on the wheel. They'll tell me the we saw on TV on Facebook somebody with their hand on the wheel who told the officer you know I have a weapon and was in the car with a child woman he got shot and nobody could say why so when you know the media does their job by saying Hey this is what's going on but people see it and I think we have to do a better job of communicating communicating but we have to come up with solutions that are real that address of that because I agree I tell people all the time go file a complaint because at least if there are. Documentation good documented accounts of this person committing these kind of violations over and over. When something horrific happens there will be documentation sure and I believe that a yeah what would it we've had a couple I was involved in one is also involved shooting immediately even as the share of I'm usually. Get my weapon to the chief deputy called state police that's what we do most large this call state police for an offer ball shooting I can see the need for that consider use of that because you know Arkansas state police is assisting agency if we call them it has to be a felony that we're looking at to having come this gated we have to have a prosecutor contact them and we we do use a state police investigate some things. But I say said that that's criminal acts read Jackson I see right you I see what they were talking and I think that's a good conversation when you sit down and try to. Drive that bus tour needs to be because I I think that that's a need I I I can see that. There should be an arbitrary person that I look. You can file a complaint know how to contact us and go through the process with this and I don't know anybody. That would be opposed to trying to do that thank you so much and thank you for the letter to. Me let. Yes more money but. Representative Scott. Sorry and thank you for being here today and I appreciate your leadership I have enjoyed listening to you talk in the comments you've made and I did have one question is there like an exception to the rule in regards to qualified immunity have you had officers who haven't been granted that I'm just still this is my freshman year so just trying to grasp and learn everything so. Well would you know that information off the top of your head I would because when we get most of. That's that's in a civil litigation and a lot of that they they do a qualified immunity and I have to be sued a lot did you know that situation There are times that they separate out and another there happened to me. In my role sheriff but there there been times where. That the county or the city has been damn that none of my responsibilities of the actions of an officer. Yeah there there has been times where they're separated out because it was so egregious and it was just. A violation of constitutional. Right you know they deprive them of their constitutional rights so it does happen but that a case setting and actually I just took some classes in criminal justice. That would take us I mean Google scholar I'm I'm tired of that but we can look up a lot of those cases and I think that we could all have that conversation that would be something to look at is how many times as an officer. because when you get sooner we do get sued quite often in may so you for just about anything. Most the time it's not something you've done it's it's something that you've done your due diligence they just in like the answer. So they've all suit then I guess around. And but that's more of a question for the. Association are so counties and our risk management and those attorneys there the deal with that every day. I can follow up with them thank you Sir and. I'm glad that the subject was brought up today it's a subject that could have a meeting all its own the. it's very rare represent to Scott of intercourse when the things were not looking at a qualified immunity this call for me to is not just for police officers of we have qualified immunity as legislators of other state employees of qualified immunity and a lot of you know that I got brought into tell will for because of one particular case the Stanley casing garland county and the state was sued not the state the I think about thirty state employees were so And the court ruled the lower court ruled that all of those employees are qualified immunity the a circuit and it's a very interesting case to listen to and to listen to the. To the judges of the a circuit debating that of rule that all of them have qualified immunity but one. Of the call is the. The the violated the Fourth Amendment and the taking of the children and it was so egregious. Of because it comes on to you. People have to have what it to them doing their jobs in that you can't be perfect and so the courts are very Lowery and less you really really go over the line. To not give you call for me too but again we start on but with law enforcement officers that the conversations not this will be law enforcement is going to be it's going to be the CFS where this conversation comes up a lot of you know when when should then employ and the superspeedways soon one should in the and in you just go right down will you know when in the FAA you know when has somebody really been fair with people dealing with them on their taxes and one of the. Not been fair and they do it intentionally and so. maybe they should have a qualified immunity so it's a it's a it's a huge subject. Of but it's not just about law enforcement election I'm glad it came up with. not one we could have settled today. The. You German when you how are. Do your the both we all have all your positions filled at the moment that. Are you close or you we heard of one that was that seventy percent but lake village earlier are you ninety percent ninety five percent do you know approximately. We're close but we have for the we have to leave open due to budget constraints and we're always the term red eleven dollars an hour jails continuous so as we talked about all the qualifications. That we want officers to have. As an employer you also have to hire the best of those who apply. Correct yes. So with that that's one of things we sometimes forget if no one's ever been. Someone who did the hiring you can hire people that don't show up some days we don't have any applicants somewhere like bacon for folks to apply. The and one of the things that comes up often around tables of it would be very helpful both education and law enforcement and probably or look other areas if we had more African Americans. Of the just the no you can try not to see color but uh it is to help it's helpful for role models it's helpful that a long time somebody to and see something is racist if someone's the same color sometimes you can say things to people of. One of the problems there. That you deal with the war in trying to hire more of minority officers. Just briefly we're pretty much base of our psych seventy thirty were. We're close to them with minorities and females from it is pretty close but is the it's really where you live and who applies and if you have. What the majority is is you're gonna get more folks like that apply. Then that's correct Not a reporter we've we trying to gonna in and seek out and and I'll give an example my son's twenty one well he had a friend of his that played football that went to college for only as Mr came back I would recruited him by by mail this kid is. He's outstanding but he's helped me. In the in the committee to go get other people because I he's from our our town or city a bit and and. You know that's my best resource because he can help me go and recruit. Because he he came up in order to the high school but in high school To me that think that's that's where you gotta go you gotta start when they get out ofschool they get to college they're trying to figure out what they want to do They just have to see the opportunity this kid had no idea he want to be A law enforcement officer tossed or talking to a but he didn't even know he did even think it was an option his father's in prison is grown the raising. And he never thought twice about ever being a law enforcement. Now is one of my best to appease we your more than force laws. I think that's for what we miss we are. We're the first on the medical scene But it's it you get ten applicants hundred Arkansas so you get a hundred applicants which we've never had we got ten. Eight of those are not going to pass a background. In order to test we do drug test and we we do it randomly you have a traffic accident you get drug tested randomly we just call you and say take a drug test this pole number of how we do that I do like the idea that the task force's work on psychological every three years or they're making. Request and and give recommendations I agree with that and it's it's tough job. Thank you for being here thank you the appreciate what you do I'd like to give you one more thing director Bradley couldn't be here see please send prayers mother's been is ill and that's why we have to see us so thank you for having us always enjoyed having of the. Sure brought he always speaks. Playing one. Thank you. How much. Are we have a. Game and fish. Are there. They have waited patiently. I show Chris. Coke closure and the. Deputy director and colonel Gregory chief of enforcement. German of one of you and then the other would give me your name employer and position. Chris call closure Arkansas game and fish commission deputy director. Great great Humm colonel enforcement vision Arkansas game and fish you're right you're right in. Delete do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes you may receive. You may. Good evening thanks for having us today it's been a very interesting and enlightening conversation for us to hear lot of the testimony of all the folks in a home go into that a whole lot of myself I'm not a law enforcement officer have been with the game and fish commission about four years. And didn't really have much experience with law enforcement to really the last two years when I as an administrator became responsible for law enforcement but I can tell you have a great appreciation for what they do you know when I'm at home about to go to bed maybe nine or ten o'clock at night and I'm getting text messages about the you know our offices are in the water trying to save somebody and I'm worried about our officers and I'm worried about the people that they're trying to protect it is very very real when you're when you know the people that are out there doing it and you know that they're putting their life at risk trying to help somebody so for us you know as an agency were about five hundred and sixty five employees only about thirty five percent of our agency is law enforcement I know some people think we're all game warns but we're not we're biologists and educators and and law enforcement and everything but I do have a great respect for the work that our law enforcement does I know there's been a lot of talk tonight about accountability and those sorts of things you know as an agency we hold our employees accountable we will always do that that comes down from the top from the director Pat fits you all know our director he holds me accountable I hope my employees accountable and that goes down the line as far as our law enforcement colonel gray gray I will turn it over to him about or laurel law enforcement division training and and Exeter. Yes thank you just to I want to reiterate what everybody else is said today either but just to address a couple things on our training our academy is eighteen weeks it's it's about five weeks longer than most to the the basic courses all of our standards or set up through the commission on law enforcement standards with director cook everything's approved through there during our academy four hours of each academy are basic academy is a before to racial profiling community policing and cultural diversity that's something that I used instruct when that when I was prior to becoming an ad man I would instructed our academy because all of our academies taught by wildlife officers. we do two hours of annual racial profiling training just this past month we had the escalating and minimizing use of force ethics interacting with the mentally ill understanding and responding to excited delirium calls and racial profiling just this last month. That's. That's not all we do and our training can we do fifty six hours a defensive tactics we don't teach chokeholds we don't we don't teach that I know that's been brought up across the country what we do we do demonstrate some to show them how to escape out of them but we do not teach them for for tactics. in my career and I've I've been in law enforcement for thirty one years been with the agency for almost twenty seven of the captain in the hot springs area over the hot springs area moved to little rock in two thousand and sixteen is a major and since that time I can tell you I traveled the state to all the different regions and all the different districts to those captains and told them what my vision was is their major in one of those things was was how to deal with personnel issues and I told him it was the absolute hardest thing to deal with and and in as an administrator still personnel issues but it also the absolute most important because when those personnel issues don't get dealt with no matter what they are they faster up and they get worse and they get worse and then it blows up and have a problem. so. I think the officers across the state know that that me and and my major search three majors that work under me in a little rock office and we we handle all those situations we what the sheriffs and you said the most important thing that we can take out of all of this is accountability and holding those officers accountable for their actions whatever it may be I've I've been like I said I've been under C. sixteen and and I probably terminated is as many as is any the Bennett my position down there we hold them accountable when we terminate we decertify it's it's an automatic train center out there are holes are paperwork when we terminate somebody it automatically goes to the certification. and we do it for ethics violations I mean because that's important because the public trust is all we've got when we go to court our trust is is all we have so it's very important for us to hold people can when I think that's that's what we're doing is for is a we we don't we don't have a whole lot of use of force issues main mainly we're out there dealing with hunter hunting and fishing A recreational boaters we do come across it we handle it in my career in my career not just being in little rock but I am not aware of any use of force complaints that have come to our HR division since I've been a major colonel there have been none we had a we had one issue to come up since I've been there that was not a formal complaint that we found that about our sales and we dressed and all should no longer with us in the certified. We we have never had a racial or buys based complaint filed in my career since I've been in little rock until this last week. It's window with. And it's still open on our end but that officer has resigned from from the agency but we handle we handle what come up what comes up so I don't know what what else you would at like for me to state but I'm I'd be glad to answer any questions but we do hold people accountable not thanks to that's the main thing that everybody should take out here from law enforcement everybody is if we help people accountable somebody said earlier you know if they get in trouble for that will do it the second time when we hold them accountable but most the time if we hold accountable they're no longer working. The so. That alternate make you term. Central. On just a quick one two because we know is with the police force they have some issues with recruiting house recruiting going for game and fish it's awful. It is we have a we we're actually interviewing right now for a cadet class to start in March are process takes about nine months the hiring process we had over seven hundred applicants for fifteen positions we had a hundred and forty three that showed up for their PT test that's the first step. So all those others dished didn't show up now why we don't know I'm sure some of it is is unemployment benefits we tried to figure it out with our HR department. To to figure out how to address that but a hundred and forty three out of over seven hundred showed up the PT test then we probably had the fifteen of those that that didn't meet the minimum qualifications on our PT test. and hi I'm just showing the deputy director here I got a text while we were here we got another one that's quit and it's about a better job while we're sitting here today so it happens a lot of the the reasons officers are leaving is they don't realize what they're getting into when they get into law enforcement of some people talked about to what they see throughout their careers I've I've read a book about you know if my mind could only forget what my eyes have seen a very good book but a lot of the young officers get into this occupation because it looks all. Shiny and and glamorous and they get in there and they don't realize it I just came back from a southeastern cheese meeting in Atlanta with all the southern cheese from wildlife agencies and they began showing a video at their recruitment when they bring their cadets in and shows them what they go through and some of the different things that happen throughout the career and I have lots of people walk out at that time to go and I have to pull a gun on somebody I want to have to fight that person so a lot of it is they just don't know what they're getting into or once they get in there it's it's just not what they expected what what's the maybe averages salary beginning salary is the same all of the state or sit there for a while I foster ma'am yes yes our officer start at about thirty nine thousand dollars a year once they graduate the academy which is eighteen weeks and they're FTO program which is an eight week program right in with if the bill training officers then they go up to around forty one forty two after that there's some automatic promotions to wildlife and wildlife officer first class which is five years of good evaluations that's an automatic promotion and then there's an automatic promotion to corporal another two years down the road from that other than that it would be promotional criteria to sergeant in a okay thank you yes ma'am. Any other questions. Thank you gentlemen for being here and FOR stay in so long yes Sir. Of. Those of you on the committee and those of you who work of thank you for being here thank you for staying. Gone through my mind as we've been here how have broken this down to two meetings and I have a still haven't figured it out so one of your probably will explain it to me later Who dealt of but a the thank you I know a couple of you have a long ways to drive. Thank you for staying I think we heard some very good testimony today and of one of the things that I heard over and over was the perception. But because it is so much I think today is perception of does means not true is lack of accountability of her heard that over and over of and that people certainly felt it whether it was true and also think that with law enforcement all of us. I have left some. Of grace. Then we do in other areas because it's it's kind of it's personal it's weak just expect law enforcement to do it right you know if you're going to tell me what to do and you have the authority of the badge and a gun then you've got to get a ride in a course and they're still human of but I think that that some. Of but I know in my own mind up you know. The are very much respect those who were gonna run by think they're gonna wrong I'm not is not as forgiving also since I'm chair I should say. That the other both the. And Natalie James this is not intended to work harder of lovely woman the thought powerful testimony but one of the she made a comment about something that happened at the capitol involving the capitol police of and the didn't say anything to challenge it as if it were true. and I'm not saying it's not true she wasn't there it was something that was reported to her I just have to say that the capitol police one of their foremost jobs is taking care of us regardless of your gender regardless of your race regardless of your political party and they do a wonderful job of that and I can not can say nothing about what she said other than they do a wonderful job of taking care of us and I very much very much appreciate that and so anyone of thank you all I think there's some things here we may look further into by the. Very good discussion and of I hope that A I've been returned I know that many of you have been but I have been but toward the past few months. Because there were things in this country and in this state that I thought we were past. And we're just simply not passed on and so since we're not some of us have to reach out to each other. That and and figured out of because you can't just say get over it because that's not going to work so we we've got to and it's not just it's not just the minority community who it's also to our law enforcement because many of them feel like they're being mistreated of and being charged with things that they haven't done and so you so we have it from all sides and and we are leaders we we chose to to run for leadership to be elected as leaders and so there's as much responsibility on us as there is on anyone to try to to pull all these factions back together so thank you so much of I don't know that we've ever had this many states we've we've gone longer than this just so you know in meetings with may but I don't know that we've ever had this many stay this long so thank you so much of the and we have another two Sir committee meeting next body after and I'm not a will tell you what's on the agenda but it's but. Now the judiciary but it's good it's going to be good you will adjourn.