Judiciary Committee - Senate

Thank you chairman of the. Thank you senator Rendon's labor busy right now but if I could get. To help us out with this bill. All right of center Johnson. Order Mr chairman members of the committee. This is a Association Arkansas counties will identify yourself I'm sorry mark Whitmore Association Arkansas counties. this is a surcharge in Arkansas counties build assure socialization what this bill does is it's about to bills in one actually Senator Irvin had a concept that is helpful to the sheriff's is that currently if you look at section see on page two. Of currently if you're incarcerated department corrections. The fact that you own other felony fines can go unabated or unattended to what this does it allows of a convicted felon that's in the car serrated to make arrangements to the circuit court works. To have their fines temporarily your payments temporarily abated to reduced based upon their ability to pay and that does that helps everybody involved because instead of accumulating extra. Thanks for a fun Director shall have an award for the rest of it wrestles with that situation currently what happens is if those aren't addressed when somebody gets out of the state penitentiary this sheriff has a warrant for their arrest and the X. disturbs my period during their incarceration and also during that six months after which the court can do to reduce their farms were temporarily abate on during that period and that the boards that board the accumulation of additional fees the other section. Of. Addresses just average person and that's not incarcerated that if you have a felony fine and you have something that temporarily hit you like to say our car wrecker you lose your job. Without having to go to the court system you go to the share for the collector felony firearms and you say Hey I'm not trying to change the court. Directed installment payments I just data temporarily ninety day period in which my fines or either registered or reduced and then temporarily and then that way if I need it longer than ninety days I'll have to go the court system the circuit court what that happen what that does is that avoids unnecessary trigger of a warrant for somebody's arrest during that period in which there have demonstrated their unable to pay their fines and just so you will know this is actually done in practice it's just does not have the the the law making it clear that is legal and then that way it avoids these unnecessary boards for people that have a temporary situation like they lose their job or have a car wreck or something and again if it goes longer than ninety days you do have to have the circuit court order your fines for text. Members my concern reviewing the courts and and they said the. A. O. C. is is going to the US so. Questions from the committee. Senator Stubblefield in Garner thank you Mr chairman just one simple question of who determines the ability. whether they're able to pay or not is sure. Yes under under this model which is temporary ninety day window what they're really doing is a show on Hey you don't Senator from I. rast you can see I've demonstrated love lost my job you can verify that shares could or it would be the shares or I'm in the hospital and that's what this is doing what happens is sheriff like sheriff Miller your shares they get this predicament every day and rather than let auditor somebody right now I'm up this gives legal backing for them to do what they're doing because after ninety days if you don't make your payment your delinquent they're supposed to have a war for you this given that ninety day window okay yes I can. Senator. Good. Any other questions from committee. This. Anyone else to speak for against the bill. Say none Senator Johnson would you like to close for your bill. We should be good vote I make a motion to pass. Motion second from Senator Stubblefield. Any discussion. All for the motion signify by saying a. All opposed. Motion carried congratulations under Johnson your past your bill. I will. House bill nineteen thirty four. And there's an amendment yes Sir. The members adopted and the bill passes out of committee it's got to go to the Senate floor. I think things are going to the house sponsor may still want to go so. Motion to adopt the member center Johnson second Senator Ross any discussion hearing some hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed motion carried congratulations senator garner you have amended your bill. You you're recognized president house bill nineteen thirty four as amended by measurement what we did is similar to had my capital rape case that failed in the House Committee this would allow life without parole for certain crimes specially those involving children realize was a came over here is that there was nothing in there just set a minor and so we put that for fourteen years and younger for the majority crime before you get that life without parole because we think that's a moral population we've cut out one element that's currently in there the look on Page two line eleven we cut out the distribute distributing mattered to dispose the collecting to me the pop. Showing sexually explicit conduct involving a child and we cut that section out completely we found is that's pretty harsh penalty to give somebody if they're just you know happen to send a video or something like that could capture a lot of people who shouldn't be facing such severe penalty but the rest about things fairly severe crimes especially for somebody under the age of fourteen with that I'll take any questions. Questions from the committee. Senator. You get an amendment would you yes Sir. I mean I I don't know cities bills bills in line numbers or or land up but look on page two says delete lines eleven through thirteen if you delete line eleven you're doing part of the other one yes Sir we're just if you look in the more substitute the following performance by a child so we're just literally leaving that section in there I don't that's the way it works right now back in there okay that's it. So the amendment is changing the whole says of the bill for minor to fifteen and below yes Sir and we're taking out that one specific section of the code that could you can apply this penalty to. Anyone here to speak for and against we have Jeff Rosenzweig speak against. Jefferson so I Arkansas association of criminal defense lawyers the Amendment does improve the bill slightly but not anywhere near enough I don't think the bill is in fact needed at all and this will create a number of of the gray areas and catch the number of people who I don't think you want to catch starting out with this the alleged perpetrator would be anyone eighteen years of age or over in other words you know even some people in high school dealing with their of and with the you know when video of their girlfriends or the that type of thing you will have of four you're going to create a gray area if you look online to as amended we're talking about less than fifteen well the problem is the age of consent fourteen year olds can under some circumstances consent to conduct and certainly anyone under twenty if they reasonably believe the person is of ace of a certain age it is it is a defense so you have a different age cut offs then appears elsewhere in the in this section in the sex statutes of if you look at the engaging children in sexually explicit conduct for use in a visual or or print medium what any of that includes that includes your your cell phone and include some some kid you can into persuading his girlfriend to do something when in fact they can stay they. Are within ages where they could in fact legally have have six or if the reasonably believes that they are of a certain age of the there was a reason the the Legislative there was a prior legislative judgment that these things were B. felonies and not of mandatory for a whole life sentence because you have all sorts of people who are the this makes no difference between an eighteen year old and a forty year old it makes it makes no difference no distinction between a principle and accomplish the will the ledges it it it contradicts some statutes dealing with a reasonable belief of a person being a certain age you will have people who can legally have sex but who are not but but it prohibits doing a doing a video of. It to it. It creates it is if it passes has the potential of creating a substantial amount of confusion and a substantial amount of justice there's a case that decided by the appellate courts recently that talks about if it's you if it's legal for them to have sex it's it can't be illegal for to do some of the preliminary matters with regard to so this bill this bill should be Rejected for sent to interim study so where so where there there can be a a long term long term of where people can sit down and see how this interacts with the rest of the code so that you do not run into situations which you don't want to run into. And I'm happy to answer any questions. Questions from the committee center Johnson. Representative Miller sure if he could come up to the table maybe you can't. You may. Representative Josh Miller. President account for. Ready to answer questions. Senator Johnson. Did you hear part of that. Representative Miller about it it conflicting with. Other parts of the code those concerns. Well like I heard I heard just a little bit of it I was late late getting in here come over from state agencies Sir garnered myself in and others have. Talk quite a bit about the amendments to try to avoid those situations I believe we have the that a member here that should alleviate those concerns Bobby is my biggest motivation in this is. We have way too many children. They're being victimized day in this state. And. While I'm all for punishing perfect this this bill doesn't go far enough in my opinion as far as punishment for such crimes I also want to send a message. That says we're not well tolerated. If you're found guilty you know I'm sorry if you're sending around pictures. About twelve or thirteen year old. Whether you've molested somebody a rape somebody yet that matter you're probably going to. I got no tolerance for. So that's kind of my take out of a mention your questions or not but. Senator Ballinger. Sorry and I apologize for not being in here but couldn't it couldn't give me a thirty thousand foot view of what the amendment does I don't I don't have information about this we only make is applicable for fourteen years old and younger we define minor somebody catch a sixteen year counted and we took out section six which is the sending the pictures and stuff like that now to the point that Mr the Jeff brought up about the section five. I sat there and thought about it pretty in depth two four dissident dies leaving and. What I thought about as you have somebody who's over age eighteen and they're filming producing have and they're actually involved in filming somebody under the age of fourteen this is I got a text from you this isn't flirting this is a pretty substantial action that you decide to take with somebody that you know this isn't a sixteen year with fourteen year olds are not applicable under this that's why decide to leave any X. I think it should be a fairly harsh punishment verses you got text messages from somebody and they just send it to you that's what this I believe in this body can disagree but I think it's it's warranted of the punishment will give. Other questions. For. Either. Representative Miller or Mr rose what. Hearing none of Bob with manta the prosecutors have something down. Your identify yourself record Bob man prosecutor coordinator represented prosecutors Association. Agenda time staff attorney with the prosecutor coordinator's office. You may proceed thank you Mr chairman edges pretty family ginger dress the issues but we have been working since last Thursday was Senator Garner on the amendment in this that we think that the amendment makes this bill much better than than it originally was in addresses many concerns we had but I think there's something to do with it just looking at the amendment a little while ago I think we talked and had one concern we want to make sure that you all were aware of before you passed in this version so if with with your permission Mister chairman ginger can explain what that is she handles the Seri in our office. Go ahead. Okay there there are a couple of the things that are needing to be just cleaned up on page two. Lines twelve and thirteen that is and not an act an accurate title of the of the statute. I think he. And at and as of said earlier about the living through thirteen I was confused also because eleven affects everyone statute twelve and thirteen of affect and other one time I was still unclear about that but then in section two line twenty that I believe that should be five four one oh four because there is no five fourteen one oh four and other small things are typos and I understand can be fixed but the the. The bigger concern is that so on section three. What it sets up to happen is an eighteen year old and a fourteen year old can have can have consensual sex. And but if there is any. You know taking of pictures or a video or anything of that consensual sex then you have a Y. felony life without parole for that eighteen year old. Now we know if we go older it's different than we can say yes absolutely life without is a very very good idea but in eighteen fourteen year old right now can have consensual sex and what we found and what has come down is that the the courts have said as Mr Rosenzweig said anytime someone can already have sex we can't really criminal compartmentalize things like well in that situation it was soliciting I mean it's legal to solicit someone who you can already have sex with and so you know in this situation we think that the Supreme Court would or court of appeals would likely rule the same way that if you can already have sex well you can buy take a picture now it's a different crime if you start spreading that picture around. Obviously but just to have it or just take it and it we we kind of face that with these other ones also section five on page three. I know it says producing director per promoting and those aren't really defined but what it comes down to when you look at the definitions it's again it's an eighteen and a fourteen year old who can't can't have sex legally and truly they can just set up a a home camera you know or some sort of video camera make a home movie and suddenly that act is a Y. felony for an eighteen year old. For fourteen year would have legal sex option under. There's there's not a crime there it's not a crime for an eighteen fourteen year old statutory I just look at the co statutory rape is less than fourteen less than fourteen. Three years. So we get we could you could change it to less than fourteen and you're good. Well I thought that's what I would do when you change it to less than fifteen. Yeah that would serve that would just pretty much solve all the Issues is changing to less less than fourteen and then just in German class just something. Senator so late in the session. We spend a rule to force members the change at two fourteen in ninety under that was the intent when I roll be a lore and also less. Less than fourteen that is changing that so I can be fourteen younger has to be less than fourteen. Okay if I put less than fourteen okay yeah. So in your in the amendment. Which we would often you want to change the. That first thought on page two one two from mater and instead of less than fifteen years of age want to change it to less than fourteen years of age yes Sir that's what you're suggesting that's emotional make to make a board member and would here in the committee. While you're doing that you want to dress that line twenty. Which was line twenty that this says the fifteenth five dash fourteen I look set up and that's a section of the code west or somewhere mission let's let's take one at a time. I thought my code will first will. Of. This is the first thing we'll need is a vote the. The Committee will willing to suspend the rules. Of. Actually we have a role in this committee that we can do this on your suspend the rules or a motion. Yeah I just put one there is there must be representative for the code set change less. Since the records okay if they this is we do have the role the first amendment is going to need to be to expunge the vote. Or is it. **** leave the minute we can just add more minutes like we did. I think I get it right if you want me to make them The Amendment. This. All right we're just looking procedure since the amendment is in the bill as far as we're concerned. we shouldn't have to expunge anything so it. The motion Senator Stubblefield inspected by Senator Ballinger is to change the ward fifteen and the number fifteen in parentheses two fourteen and fourteen sacrosanct. Less than fourteen sorry got less well less than a still there what is changing yes we're changing. Fourteen. Fifteen and fifteen in both places the fourteen correct correct okay that's the motion is everybody understand the motion. Okay all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed motion carried the bill has been amended by voice of. Amendment to. Fourteen fourteen I think I have one more mental bill has been for that matter now so would another amendment for voice moment home Page two line twenty it says exit except as provided under five dash fourteen dash four oh one that should be five dash four dash four one which is the section that the representative of it you're saying for a one on it reads one oh four so what is it five dash four dash one oh four or four one. S. the one at the Koeberg here's five deaths four dash one four one distribute represent that's right okay it's five dash four dash four oh one okay we really got that all. Now this is what you can to five dash four dash one oh four okay. So I had that is just that one right okay so you it Senator Garner you're making a motion all Page two line twenty. The number five dash fourteen dash one oh four to change that to five dash four dash one oh for correction right to one basically on an instructor one of fourteen. Second from Senator Rice in discussion you're not offer the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed. Motion carried. Okay so we've got to voice amendments. Okay questions from the committee. Prosecutors good. Yes Mister chairman the because if there's anything you're not tell us. I think we're fine at their I don't there were just to kind of it course it's a polished policy decision about that you do what you're doing is you're creating that the that the pictures and so forth and taking them and that those things are going to are going to be a more severe penalty then the actual sexual act. Submit that may be something you want to do so I want to do that. The. Senator Ballinger. Most. Good vote for we do that thank you prosecutors you Mr Rosenzweig with the bill amended this or anything else that you want to add. I just like to reiterate what I said before is that is that you're going to catch the number of people whom you do not mean to catch you're going to catch accomplices you're gonna catch eighteen and nineteen year old to make a mistake who right now for instance would be subject to a B. felony where there where the system has some flexibility and replacing it with a lot of life without parole that you know that so Morse more serious than almost any other crime in the book it's if this is NO one wants her no one wants children to be abuse obviously but do do you really want to throw away the key on younger people high school students college students who make a make a mistake particularly when you have with the court visual performance that you're talking about it used to be you have to get Cameron you know instead of a tripod and everything but now anyone just pick up a phone and that that meets that meets the terms of the statute and you have a lot of people who just are thinking and not thinking clearly they're overcome by passion they're eighteen nineteen twenty years old you really want to make these people subject to life without parole I would suggest no and I think and certainly this isn't something that should be done late in the session with you know last minute voice amendments and things like that it's a type of thing that you that all the stakeholders need to sit down and figure out how how this works and and the interplay With other with other statutes is this just this is way too hurried to mess with something like this thank you senator Johnson. Mr Wade in the last session we uh that under there's a federal bill where eighteen and under can have life without parole and this would this would be the same way thank you Sir thirty years the sentence and then they would have parole no matter what under that the best Victoria what what happened was in the in the Miller case back you know what back away nine years ago the U. S. Supreme Court said you could not have a mandatory life without parole for someone under the age who committed the offense under the age of eighteen you of course these people by definition or Erika give slightly different class they're eighteen years old but you know our one day can make you can make a difference but I mean you're a seven someone is seventeen and three hundred and sixty four days comes up for parole after thirty years on for homicide in your room someone who's eighteen years old and one day for no one gets killed and he's gonna be doing life without parole I think that's just a it's just the it's just the. A bad idea because it doesn't distinguish it it it gives the system absolutely no discretion and heading and how to deal with deal with the levels of culpability that's why we have sentencing ranges because there are different levels of culpability a you know eight a kid who's a follower is different from some forty year old mastermind and this would take away any and all of that and replace it with a one size fits all. It's just terrible idea. Mr Rosenzweig yes of course what you said. Of Page one line thirty six. Of those changing the eighteen there to twenty one. Of excell a lot of your concerns you mentioned eighteen nineteen and twenty year it would it would fix a number of them it would it would fix a number of them I still think it's a I I still think it's a bad idea I mean because eighteen nineteen year olds by definition. going to have series judgment problems but you know you have you have people who were who were mentally slow who get involved in these accomplices you get thank you takeaway you you just take away discretion of the courts to deal with different levels of culpability you know for you know for these for these offenses and a. We're doing. Any other questions from committee. I non. we don't see anyone else here for or against. Senator Garner representative Miller George close for your bill thank represent Miller has something to add. Of. Thank you Mister Committee folks I've. Nobody wants unintended consequences I learned a long time ago when I first got down here sometimes we we we do things we don't actually know what we've done you know two years down the road I don't want that to be the case here but at the same time. We're gonna send the. We've got to send a message that this type of haters on acceptable you know I don't care if you are hi I know folks. Who are victims of child ****. You don't live that. Eleven twelve thirteen fourteen years old. Fifteen for that matter. That that that that goes with you for a long time. And and with the technology hello Sir that we have I mean obviously goes on. But I will be going on here and I want people to think. You know send a message a long time ago Jordanaires you know you you stole a horse your whole. So I was so people thought long and hard for the go still orders of. I don't know I mean I'm happy to to make these amendments try to make folks happy that the prosecutors I know they have a tough job but but at some point you know everybody says what we need to do so we need to so we're trying to do something. But at some point you got a. You know there shall be cut off recess will renew and and go with it. you know if there's things that need to be changed you know the legislatures are reconvene. They were down here every other year. So with that I'd ask for your vote thank you. Representative Miller though you have closed both of as you're getting started Senator Johnson indicated he would like to ask questions would you take questions sure. Miller I know you you made a bad decision whatever you were young. And the and the and you and you had to live with that a lifetime you don't get to go back on that is that is correct right that is correct I'm grateful to god that the bad decision I made. I did involve. That is a by standard for our kids or whatever it was just a it was just my body in a sum choices we make no don't you don't get to go back on that they're at I've I've been I've lived a very blessed life but a no I have been able to go back and fix that not thank you Sir. Okay of the representative Miller and Senator Garner close for the bill. Action from the Committee. Do pass. As amended from Senator Ballinger second. Second from Senator Garner any discussion. Hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed motion carried congratulations representative Miller Senator Garner you passed your bill I see Senator waiting in the room central air units here to observe representive Eubanks you desire to observe. You don't need to worry around one other Senator talkers bills. Any further business. I believe that I looked at the Agenda it appears that concurrence is on house amendments to the floor which I believe is what they announced they were going to do so we don't have any of those one we are. C. N. where we are in the session of we are recessed until this afternoon although we don't expect to meet this afternoon but by a recess and we can if we need to The of. And do not expect any further meetings but we could upon call the chair were recess.