House Rules

The appeal the ruling of the Speaker on the Germaneness of I believe Senate bill seven forty one representative Wardlaw you're recognized to present your motion. Thank you Mr. Yesterday and public health committee Allen McVeigh came to committee and he testified with a financial impact that he didn't think funds could be used for this purpose on the floor today we heard the word may I've asked Allen to come today to provide testimony on the committee to clarify those terms that were used in public health yesterday if you follow along with me to second page of the bill to line twelve it almost looks like they inserted this paragraph in the bill just to make it germane on the face value which is what the Speaker has to make his ruling on it says the department of finance may establish a grant program which means they may or may not establish a grant program for color relief funds to be received on the American rescue plan act of two in to provide restitution. Any time we provide restitution and I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure we have plenty amend room that we're going to talk to this but any time you provide restitution is normally a criminal act this whole bill sets up a civil action not a criminal action so if you look at that paragraph there's multiple things there that do not play in to the resolution in which we're here we're here to take up cover relief funds we are here to take a redistricting which we have handled. And that is my point my motion at this bill is not germane descendants was stuck in here solely to get it through the process and it does not in any way ever intend to spend any cover relief funds with that I'll turn it over to Allen with your indulgence to clarify those terms thank you representative Sir if you would just go and introduce yourself for the record and then you can begin your testimony thank you Mr chairman I'm element that I am represent department finance administration as chief of staff we were asked to review the Senate bill seven thirty one and we have our had a consultant in place for some time we hired with the support of the legislature C. T. H. N. Haggerty consulting's two of a provided an extremely valuable service to us the state with respect to the cares acting we've continued of that relationship there contract for C. T. H. N. Haggerty to also review the American rescue plan act of so it is it and based on the review of C. T. H. and Haggerty of the Department finance administration has determined that it is not an eligible activity two years American rescue plan funds for this purpose. Right thank you Sir would be glad to take any questions or committee Mister members you have any questions of either representative Wardlaw Mr McVeigh. All right seeing no questions thank you for your customer we do have several people signed up to speak for and against this motion first on the list is. I can't read the last name Laura or Lanham from family at and Arkansas for the bill. Yep yep yep yep. Ma'am you're recognized to go and speak. Yeah you have to speak on the motion. About the Germanus of the of the month in this yeah okay and not to the the we're not debating the bill we're just debating the motion the motion is that we're appealing the speaker's ruling that the bill was germane to the resolution that we passed early on so if you keep your remarks based on the Germaneness or lack there of of this particular item yes yesterday in the health committee it was very clearly test testified by multiple people that and the reason it was germane was the fact that you have more many people being put out of work currently and the the fund was being set up to. Hopefully only partially put them in a situation of home is not full hold it's like not to to pay all their mortgage not to to like a full unemployment like. Like a capital on top of their unemployment or any of those things in. May or may not like you all are stuck on the may. And I understand consultants were hired and one of the things that were discussed in the committee as well as I am canceled the been wrong time and time again. For you all annual of for hire them fired them hire new ones because you didn't like the outcomes were they were wrong in their interpretation of wording. So. Very clearly the ward may also means may not it means it can be used. based on. Based on the Arkansas finds and the law so as long as the law is written correctly. Then it's not in conflict with the ORP of funds and therefore would be germane. So I'm not sure how you all can say would not be germane and I I mean I really truly would like you to to ask me. And and I would. Or clarify how would not be germane and because that's. As families and friends that I know that are losing their jobs I'm not sure how. Their livelihoods are not germane with this bill member and we're not here to discuss whether their livelihood is germane that's not the issue our issue is can the American rescue plan funds be used for this purpose that the FNA that is the question of what I'm not saying that but but it's based on the board may. Therefore you're saying may means only may not. That's what you're consultancies. That he had read the arpa funding rules and said that it may not be use that's the way that they interpreted. The ward may does not just automatically assume not. You can you can't just. Insert another word that's not how the language works that's not the English the English language doesn't just insert a new work. So thank you can't just in certain not in there to fit. Someone's once just because they don't agree with the way the law is written they can just decide that it doesn't work. Yes. Would you take questions yes of course representative gray you're recognized thank you Mr chair and that see I went to the well and testify because they were two different wordings in the language here but do you not agree that if they decide at the end of the table and said that it could not be used that's that's my argument they said it could not be used based on their consultant. And they're saying they're saying based on the word may they're interpreting it to mean may not. I disagree with that's what the testimony was at the end of the table the may if I could Mr tears with buildings that may was in the wording of the F. inmates fiscal impact and the may I believe was used to say it may not but doesn't matter what the wording was at the end of the day if whatever consultant says which is what what will follow or else what's the point even hired a consultant for not going to follow the recommendations you know they do this nationwide for lots of our but clients Then they said at the end of the table and say it is not allowed. I think words were it's a pun on words of a statement they put out yesterday. That thank you Mr chair so what I would what I would say in in return that is once again how many times have has Arkansas or even these other states fired consultants based on the fact that they were wrong in their interpretation and hired someone else based on even other states findings to align with the way it was supposed to be interpreted. That just because you don't like the wording of something because you don't want the findings to be used that way doesn't make their interpretation correct. Even a doesn't want it being used. For this right for the for this for this for this use so they are choosing to interpret it that way. Thank you represented by your question you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair. So I I agree with representative Grady. Their wording it's a wording issue so if my child I ask for ice cream for breakfast and I say you may not have it does that still mean that they may have it may not actually when when parenting I have eight children if I am absolute about my answer I say you cannot have ice cream for breakfast I don't say you may not have ice cream for breakfast it is absolute no you cannot have ice cream for breakfast that is a ridiculous I ask you can't have yogurt with your granola that is great but for dessert you can have a parfait and that can be used with ice cream so if I state may not my child can still go to the refrigerator and get it because I didn't say can't know what they can do is say for clear mom since you said may. No I have eight children you don't think I deal with this on a regular basis I deal with this on a regular basis. Well that's fine but don't ask me a question of the parent and then don't expect me to read them this focus on what we're talking about here but she posited the question based on parenting so I'm I'm I'm just responding and so. It but is based on morning as a parent so if yes ma'am it is if they ask questions and they do and they ask questions even when I taught in school if the student asked that question may they and they had asked for clarification I would say when they could and when they could not because it's all based on clarification not based on absolute eight can and cannot is absolute a may and may not is based on clarification. You're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair and I heard you say that the if in a doesn't want to use the A. R. P. A. funds for this I don't disagree with that they didn't want to use the A. R. P. A. funds for representative Josh Bryant's bill either but they didn't come back in the fiscal statement and say that it was not allowed so I think you know your point saying that they're going to find a way to not pay for it if they don't want to They didn't do that on the bill that I voted yes for earlier in the week can you explain why you think they would find a way to not pay for it in one instance when they said it was allowed in another instance. We have to pull that bill up in front of me again I mean I've been here all week like you all have so it's been a very long exhausting week I won't deny that so I would have to look at exactly without wording was definitely differences But if he could surely be based on reading I mean morning matters we we can also do an agree on that I mean if it if it had the word may in there once again may is a clarification based word. So I mean that and that's all I'm saying is every single time you use that word you're basing on clarification. Members any other questions. Ma'am not if I'm not mistaken and and we're certainly trying to keep on track here but whether or not this is germane but. The the federal guidelines say the funds may not be used for this purpose that is specifically spelled out in this bill that's what we're trying to figure out whether or not the bill is your main based on that language in the language of the federal guidelines have you read the federal guidelines I have the federal guidelines says that they cannot be used if they get fired for refusing the vaccination if I remember correctly that they would be being fired for not being vaccinated in this bill this bill is written for a right to privacy which means you just can't pass if you can't ask there if you then you just cannot ask so there there's no being fired. Or being hired or anything based on COVID nineteen vaccination status. Thank you members any other questions. Thank you for coming down thank you for your testimony thank you Sir. the next on the list against Israeli women friends of Arkansas. Comments for me I'll pass yes Sir thank you. we have Thank you Jackie Martin. Jackie one you're with convention of states you can begin your testimony once you get seated make sure buttons pushed. Thank you my name is Jackie Martin I am state director for a convention of states and as I've testified last week and this week my testimony hasn't changed now as to the Germaneness. Not only am I a state directive convention of states but I'm elected official as a J. P. in Cleburne County and I deal with language quite often in our ordinances. If you use the word shall. I interpret that to mean you will do it may is more open ended if we can talk about language here. That's my interpretation of how you use specific words when you're saying or directing a agency or department to do specific things. The Germaneness issue here is obviously on words for the questions I've already heard from members of the committee. However I would like to say this also. It is rather disturbing to set among other legislators in the audience and with members of employees of the state. I make comments like. And I'd rather be somewhere else like on the lake then here. When people's lives are in the balance. Know whether that statement is germane or not. I'll leave that up to your interpretation thank you but you ask us to have decorum. I ask you to have to quorum as well because we're not playing games here. And the Germaneness. Is on the language obviously so. May to meet leaves it wide open as to interpretation as to whether or not. The SNA is directed to create a grant program for restitution of someone who has been discriminated against by their employer. By choosing to ask whether or not. They've had the vaccine. All right thank you ma'am members any questions. Thank you ma'am we have next on the list Allen make baby if they did you want to come back up or have you already. You're okay. Tanya yielding. And you would just please introduce yourself for the record and then you can begin your testimony tiny living I'm just here on my behalf and. This is ridiculous what's going on here what I have witnessed all this football plan it's like watching some. Bullies on the elementary playground and I do not mean that disrespectfully and I certainly think that you all can agree. But the Germanus of this issue is. It's obvious as my friend with vinous said the word may can be used in many different ways coming. And I'm very very stressed I'm sure you can see that I'm sure we all are. But you guys to make people's lives are on the line here something has to be done someone has to take that football and make that call. And I just ask that you. That you listen to god we all sat in there and prayed and I hope that he touches your heart deeper than he ever has before. The representative may what's your point. My point is that we are not she's not discussing the Germaneness of the bill and that is what we're here for today thank you thank you would just keep your remarks based solely on whether or not we're talking about the Germaneness of the bill. And it is germane. It is absolutely. And if the funds need to go where they need to go then they will go there. You know it and I noticed by the fact the federal guidelines say they may not be used specifically for this purpose we're trying to get it right I promise you no one's playing games no one's trying to spike the football we're all tired were as frustrated as you are a problem should have we just want to make sure that we get it right that's what our job is and and that's what we're here to do. The right thing to do would be to pass this bill thank you for your testimony yes Sir. Representative slave you're recognized by teachers like students. Okay member that is the last person signed up to speak for or against the motion. Senate bright. Okay thank god we do another sign in sheet this whole conversation. Thank you represented by. All right Wayne beach. Beecher you go introduce yourself for the record and you're recognized to begin your test on. Hi my impeach. I can I'm a forensic engineer and also I served as an expert witness and consultant. And I know that this state and we have one consultant says made an opinion and if you've ever been in a quorum both sides always have their own consultants and they have their own opinions. And I've seen this happen a lot. If we're deciding whether this is germane or not. I'm wondering how come we don't have the other side. Opinions and consultant. Rather than just one sign. This is this is all. I thank tell you just selected redistricting stuff this is all going to go to court. Whether it you Forder against. Still gonna go court. So I would recommend that you probably get another opinion from another perspective and have them defended and look at those documents that wording. Are you just wait to and just let court talents and just go ahead and pass this bill it's all about perception. Are you going to represent the people. We go represent an entity is just this system one of the things that I hear about companies. Companies are actually entities they're not individuals Mr PH please keep your remarks based on whether or not this will remain I don't make you to get off topic I understand I'm sorry that's okay I understand that the I think the Germanus of it is that we really need to have another opinion. To look at this look the wording is that they if they both agree. We'll no problem. I said that's all I have thank you members any questions of Mr beach thank you Mister page from down. And the last unless representative Bryant. Senator Rapert you're recognized thank you Mister chair. Committee I I know we kind of. Got to watch a roller coaster last last week on these issues I like to remind those that we're paying attention to the Senate Senate in when they're addressing the same issue as far as the Germaneness of of all their bills in relation to redistricting and I recall that that the Senator Hickey came in kind of last minute waving a stack of papers saying that we we hired a consultant consumption is made the the the error of final rules for the treasury department on opera funds are just they're gonna be they're gonna be thick so we hire consultants as tells were wrong one or right so he came in with this the with the paper and said. We can't use these funds for testing. They may not be used for testing so even these bills that look at art good. And then a few days later DFA statement shows up on the Senate bills I like to read the bottom of that page. The state of Arkansas retain the consultant C. T. H. Haggerty to advise the state on the use of the distribution of our pipelines the council has advised that the use of our pipelines to cover cover testing for employee is required by Senate bill seven thirty nine but not covered by the employees would be an eligible use of the funds. So I'm not gonna say would put Senator Hickey held his hands was was it I don't know the intent but he said Arkansas is that they may not be used in India in a statement comes out says they can be used. You're not talking about this this particular bill all right. You're not talking about Senate bill seven forty one. But on Senate bill seven thirty nine I think the the intent of the Speaker was to was to say that in accordance with the concurrent resolution ten fifteen. If the funds are available and we hired a consultant and a consultant as the as my in my demonstration can be wrong we're we're moving at a really fast pace so I would like it to see that the concurrence of the speaker's decision be upheld. Thank you. Members any questions. Members with no when I signed up. President will hang on just one second we have a question. Representative Ferguson thank you Mr chair after question representative right he left. The representative right are you talking about the Bill. That you introduced today. That Senate Bill are you saying that what you're reading at the you have taught my that no Sir no Sir Tom another beer okay but I just want to be here thank you thank you thank represent I members no one else signed up to speak for against the bill representative or law you're recognized to close for your motion rather. Thank you Mr. Committee yesterday in committee the sponsor to Senate sponsor this bill said he inserted that sentence because he thought it made it germane if you look back you filed a previous bill Senate bill seven nineteen and on that bill same paragraph says the department of finance administration may establish a grant program to distribute COVID nineteen relief fund doesn't even refer her to the a a RP for money. He went back he sticks A. R. P. money and actually gets at their own face value the Speaker and president pro tem have to make the decision on face value meaning of the words are in there they have to let it go yes the name is our guidance on all of our funding given they came to committee they said you may not use he came here today and clarify that statement said you could not use this bill was filed with this sentence in there so that we could hear it on face value it cannot be germane because it cannot be used so with that I appreciate a good vote thank you Mr. All right members of we're gonna take a vote now on the representative Wardlaw is motion. Is there any discussion on the motion. Yes so representative Wardlaw take the motor would you mind restating your motion and and we'll get to what a yes vote means what a no vote means. What we would do it out buddy the motion is whether this bill is germane or not so if you vote yes the affirmative vote would be that the bill is germane if you vote no you're voting that you agree the bill is not germane. Thank you Mr. Representative Dalby do you have a okay. Okay represent one more time what a yes vote means what a noble man so we're all clear what we're doing and a yes vote is that the bill is germane a no vote is the bill is not germane. The Bill. Right and that's because the Speaker had declared the bill to be germane. Are all those in favor of representative or laws motion signify by saying aye. All those opposing by saying no. The notes have it we were take this report to the house take it up there we are adjourned.