Judiciary Committee- House & Senate

We're going to start of with prayer and the pledge the best representative float Collins to leaders in prayer and then after that if you remain standing for Senator Garner to lead us in the pledge so if you'll stand. The other league what's over of the day this year's rates. We do work your vehicle here on earth and we appreciate and are grateful for all of the committee what are your to that thank you enough. Yeah. Hi. For which it stands one. It will. Strong. President everyone being here today. Everyone had a. Great Christmas happy new year or having a happy new year. Hope everyone's well we're going to split the agenda up today and of. Representative Dalby is going to take CD and a and then I will take F. and G. so we're gonna switch chairs here and let her take over. Thank you senator Clark I look forward to today I think we're going to have a really interesting meeting with a lot of good information. But with that members let us move to item C. consideration to approve the December eighteenth twenty twenty and November thirteenth twenty twenty meeting minutes to I have a motion. I have a motion and a second we have a motion and a second any discussion. All in favor please say aye. Any opposed an oppose motion carries the minutes are approved members let's move to a item D. representing flowers this is your item and if you'd like to speak from there let me get you turned on. Yes you're recognized thank you madam chair this is just a and a study based on a bill that was proposed this session will give us a chance to gather more data my name is on the study the bill was actually had other co sponsors and was a bipartisan efforts and I expect this study to be the same thank you madam chair. Members are there any questions representing flowers. Represent flowers are you making a motion to adopt interim study proposal so moved we have a motion Is there a second term motion I have a second any discussion. All in favor please say aye. Any opposed but we have one opposed motion carries and it will now be placed into interim study thank you madam chair thank you Committee. Members let's move to item ET. Presentation of technology in corrections this is Mister Logan who is our the CEO smart communications. Mr Logan if you come forward and identify yourself is Mr hold here with you today. Okay if you just have a seat and pressed the button. And you'll be recognized to identify yourself members you. If you have in your packet you have the hand out of of the presentation of. It's probably online we're also going it is exhibit easy in your online so you can look at it there I don't think that Mr Logan's not gonna go slide by slide the will certainly going to allow plenty of opportunity for us to have a discussion on this but we're going to make sure that all the members of the committee that this is email to you so you will not have to just go on the website to find it the presentational be emailed to you so you'll have that but with that the Mr Logan if you'll introduce yourself you'll be recognized and you may proceed. Sure hi my name is John Logan I'm CEO smart communications we are a technology company specializing in a correctional and law enforcement technology we're based out of Tampa Florida. Go ahead just make you make your presentation okay great thanks very much thank you all for your time I make this to the point short and sweet and feel free to ask questions here we're done but you here discuss I I think what I would characterize as a epidemic problem going on all across the country it's not unique to the state of Arkansas however this is a problem that is affecting the state of Arkansas the staff of government employees are in danger every day you have inmates life's on the line and in danger every day and we have a plan to eliminate that basically overnight and we also have a plan to revolutionize the department of corrections into a paperless and automated environment that's going to save money for the agency it's going to improve intelligence and it's going to better the lives of the inmate's which in turns going to better the lives of the community so it's a win on all levels with that being said I add there is a larger power point here there's a larger presentation by me hit I think the most important parts for for you guys so that you can ask questions here when we're done so a plan number one I think we can all agree. It's it the the fundamental part of incarceration it is is corrections in correcting behavior and with the number one problem with people who get arrested commit crimes and are incarcerated was it revolved around substance abuse disorder it's over 80 percent so number one I think in order to change this epidemic of recidivism is going on across this country. It be to eliminate the drugs there's a massive problem with drugs flowing into correctional facilities and inmates are still dependent and hooked on dangerous drugs well they're incarcerated right here in the state of Arkansas we have a patented product that actually will eliminate that overnight I'll get into that just second but step number one eliminate the drugs given mates a fair chance to actually become productive citizens step number 2 after we eliminate the drugs in the facility we're going to provide rehabilitative content to all inmates all inmates at no cost will have rehabilitative content delivered to them directly. And then after we real rehabilitate change their thought process we then get into education programs will provide educational programming to all inmates in the Arkansas department of corrections there will be no haves or have nots every single inmate will have access to this education. And in addition to that a major piece of this is to connect connect all inmates and as a true technology and communications company that is ultimately what we specialize in so all inmates with our platform would be given free communication every week with their family they'll have to free electronic messages where the be able to communicate to family regardless if they're indigent regardless if they have money in their accounts are not everyone gets to communicate for free so there's no haves or have nots and they'll be able to engage with their family on a weekly basis. The other step to that is once we get them off the drugs we rehabilitate and educate them then we have to work on actually providing programming for when they leave the doors of of the department of corrections when they walk out there go back into the communities we have to give them the the plan in the past as far as what to do where to go and who to see and what to expect and we have programming that would be provided again to all inmates so there's no inmates left behind all inmates would have this in the end result of that is you and the revolving door of reset the system that is affecting this state and it's costing a lot of money for everyone involved. Step number one is eliminating the drugs as we talked about this is our mail guard processing centers you can see on the screen this is where we process the mail the mail no longer goes to your agency the male soak with drugs that has Fenton all which is extremely dangerous it's killing people all the time and your staff is currently having to manually touch this chemicals and drugs we have staff this train professional we do this all over the country we process mail for around 80 to 90000 inmates a day to process in Tampa Florida once the mails process is then turned into an electronic document that we emailed directly to the agency or the agency can then the verify that males who want to approve it or reject it once it's approved it would go directly to the inmates on our tablet system where the inmates would then read a copy of their physical postal mail in a PDF format where there's no drugs there's no labor for your agency and all the investigative intelligence is now available for the department so you're limiting drugs you're meant eliminating labor and you're gaining intelligence. The other step to that is milgard legal because once you solve the problem with the regular mail you now have the legal mail and we seen this time and time again when agency say well just copy my mail well the problem is you can't copy legal mail because that is protected privileged mail so we created a product called milgard legal it is a wifi enabled mobile cart where is the mails process in the presence of the inmate and then the original shredded NO one had access to that mail except the inmate in this email to the inmate as an encrypted file on the tablet system so the inmate still getting their mail however there's no possibility of drugs reaching the inmate and the original shredded so all privilege was was maintained. After the mail is processed at our facility in Tampa Florida within store the mail stating timestamp so if ever the investigators needed you still haven't. And then step number 2 that's after you clean up the drugs and get the drugs out of your facilities we work on delivering the content for rehabilitation so all inmates have access to the spa and they can actually help themselves. In June. All right education so after you get them off the drugs and we rehabilitate them with program means that changes their thought process and behavior we get into the education there's everything from learning to read to you true college accredited courses they can walk out of your facilities and actually get certificates for courses they have completed so they have a skill set when they leave those doors and we talked about connecting so. This computer keeps freezing up on us college eyes okay. All right no problem I'll pick it back up where it was. Okay so we were. I believe I believe here. The. Thousands of other. Okay we'll get in there. Okay. So again I'm done to connect so we connect inmates we do this both internally and externally what we do is we actually automate all of the internal processing communications within the facility so this would save you and your agency millions of dollars of currently wasted labor of manually shuffling in may request medical forms things like that throughout the facility this platform would digitize all internal and external communications and provide the agency with all the control over that entire process and as I stated before our company donates to free emails every single week so again I say emails but it's really controlled messaging system so your inmates your population would be able to have free communication with their families keep that family bond strong's when they're released they actually have a home to go to and and people they stay in contact with. Once they're connected we have to work on selectica we have work on reentry programming still looks like it's frozen. We provide re entry content and everything from a customized video series so all inmates have. Basically a a list of of agencies and departments that when they leave your doors they know where to go what what available resources they have and these are all things that come to the agency through one platform and it can be at 0 cost your agency so this is something that can cost your state nothing in save you millions of dollars while protecting your staff's lives and the inmate's lives ultimately benefiting everyone involved including the community and the strategic vision of this is providing all these services eliminating the drugs and provide a new intelligence to the agency and that revolutionizes the department of corrections brings it up to the modern world as corrections I think is often been kinda left behind and and it's I think a big drain of resource and and time for your state and I think that we have an easy button you guys can hit to to change that so that's a that's a power point today. Ready for any questions you may have. Members Senator Clark you're recognized. Representative Richardson you're recognized. Thank you madam chair the I was looking at your presentation and looks like there could be some significant savings I'm curious what's the cost of this program so who's paying for this so typically and we do this all over the country typically it's combined our services are provided we usually in conjunction with communication services like for example our company created the very first in the email system if we provide the email system to your inmates we give 2 free emails we make enough revenue with that solution to provide all the services I just went over at no cost to the inmates and no cost to the agency if the inmates choose to use the email system which a lot of them do because it's the fastest cheapest form of communication there is that will sustain enough revenue for our company to be able to provide the hardware the software the maintenance in the day labor to process all the services of once. Follows you're recognized I think I missed you again so who who's actually paying for the service if it's not the agency so there is no cost to your agency the inmates if they choose to use our email system which 94 percent to 96 percent do that generates enough revenue through the email platform that we use that revenue and then provide all these free services so it is free to you it's free to the inmate and then if the inmates choose which they will good value to them it's faster than the postal service to use our email system that'll generate enough revenue to support the all these applications. One you're recognized. Okay so all right so in may so tell me what that cost is to the inmate should they choose to take on the email system it's $0.50 per email $0.50 per email thank you. The representative Collins you're recognized. Thank you over here and I appreciate a lot of the sort of the the benefits here I'm curious about the logistics and kind of help me understand just nuts and bolts what's going in what's going out or are you all going to replace the phone contract are you all going to replace the video communications contract that we have or whatever that is and clearly you gonna replace US mails the idea or you know put US mail in electronically so kind of what are the Senate what are we gonna forgo and that will create savings for us. So kind of a loaded question so we can take over your and a phone service we don't have to I think there's benefits to having us provided because we can provide a consolidated platform so all of these services are administered through one application where doesn't matter if it's email texting video visitation phone calls postal mail legal mail education entertainment it's all housed in what we call our smart eco system however if you're agencies chooses to say not we only want to have the email and postal mail system we can still provide that to you that comes with education comes with reentry program comes with a law library access to all inmates to something I didn't mention but it's available to all inmates at all times your state isn't having to currently at each facility provide access to a law library it's part of our package we eat that cost because we're basically a large scale wholesaler all across the country for that service so we make a better deal so I'd when you say 4 go I I think there's truly this is one of those And know sounds crazy because you guys have heard at all but I I can truly attest you this is a win win for everybody involved including the inmates and the families including your agency by saving money inefficiencies and gaining things like new intelligence automation improve staff morale because guess what you guys don't like having shuffled school paper around needles wrestle world neither does your staff and allow your staff recruiting nowadays are younger individuals and it's hard to recruit them when you have old antiquated systems that they're required to adhere to so this helps on all levels and it brings your agency up to to the modern world. Senator Stubblefield you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair Mister Logan of do you have any idea what percentage of drugs comes via mail into our correctional facilities. In great question loaded question I think it it somewhat varies and it's hard because I I think that a lot agencies and may be saying Hey you know we have a big problem with sometimes staff sometimes it comes in through the inmates I can tell you. I give your road map and we can provide this to solve that 100 percent across the board it be including body scanners with our mail guard solutions and that would be the really the only 2 major access of contraband entering the facility but I would say the postal mail traditionally is probably the number one conduit outside of staff and you know what what what I'm getting at is you made the statement that you were going to completely eliminate. Drugs coming into the prison that state but is a little bit misleading would you agree well I I was referred to we can eliminate the drugs coming through the postal mail and that's what I'm referring to we can 100 percent overnight eliminate drugs coming through your postal mail okay thank you mejor senator Clark you're recognized. The manager of. It. In I don't know if there's anybody from department corrections here so I don't and I don't know that you know the answer to this is email available to inmates now. I believe it is through a different vendor. Okay is there a cost to inmates now I believe there's 2 cost inmates now I believe inmates are having to purchase their own tablet and then there is the cost of the email itself so it's kind of a double costs were with our system we provide the hardware to all and it's all inmates will have access to tablets and education reentry and then the emails again to free every week and in addition to that it's only $0.50 which I believe you're currently at now. You believe they're currently paying $0.50 fully self plus having to buy their own tablet but you're not sure of that. But. Okay so so you think third D. you've got a better deal for the inmates and no cost to the state is what you're telling us yes Sir of. And you believe this eliminates contraband entry through mail completely seems like it would be 100 percent. K. R. have you ever had a contract terminated anywhere. Have that contracts expire I've never we have never been terminated for Clause or lack of performance now but you had contracts expire which means the deal ended do you know what. There's been competition in our space so they made sometimes bundled services like for example your current vendors if you said Hey you know what one take over the email system as happened us before relationship so we can't be everywhere but that's happened for thank you thank you manager. Represent flowers you're recognized. Thank you madam chair what other states have. Utilize your services. We operate our services in 26 states currently not 26 DOC's just to clarify the 26 states most of our customers are county jails we have probably around 10 or so county jails in the state of Arkansas the use this exact platform have for many years and we also do this exact product for the Pennsylvania department of corrections statewide as well as some facilities the federal bureau of prisons. Thank you. Members are there any other questions before I go to a non member of the committee go ahead. Representative very you're recognized for a question thank you madam chairman taking questions and so be curious how do you keep the bad actors out of the the process or somebody screening the email or is it department of corrections personnel that screening email or is it your company to prevent the crime from pop prospering over the email system. So a great question. So we do not filter anything whether it's postal mail or email our company and our individuals are employees do not get involved with dictating what the policy your agency may have or that particular individual inmates policies because the very however what we do is we provide all of the intelligence and software baked into the system so we have things like keyword tracking so if you say things like murder ill send a flag it'll automatically forwarded to investigator or certain people's names automatically forwarded to that staff member I'm so as a lot of intelligence baked into it as well as like a video visitation is key word voice biometrics so somebody's having a video visit it in in a word gets said that you guys find of interest it can automatically flag that and say Hey here's this word was said there so tons of intelligence built into that email system was the first email system in corrections it's been in play for going on 12 years now. Follow up and German you're recognized so is there any way to prevent electronic stalking you know an inmate at you know stalking a victim to the email system. Correct so you inmates are not allowed to just email so if I was an inmate and I knew your email address I cannot email you what I could do is I could enter your email address one time into our platform our platform would notify you via email and say Hey in may John Logan at Arkansas do you see would like to communicate with you if you accept go make a profile and then you could communicate with consent with that in may but inmates can't just spam out other people there's all the controls there plus if there is for example like a protective order there's controls within the platform to say Hey this email address is not allowed to get invitation this phone numbers not allowed to get an invitation so those protocols and and software sets are are baked into the system. Sir Clark you're recognized thank you manager so inmates. Would have a hardware of 2 free emails per week. $0.50 per email after that. That for this particular service understanding of other services that you would offer to the department of corrections. Of but are there any other calls. It only other costs would be for other services like video visitation but if you wanted to just focus on just the the mail in the mail system that is that were completely transparent popping up company when in typically just clarify usually inmates are paying for the emails usually it's in the community so if I'm the girlfriend and I I want to talk to my boyfriend in prison I pay on the website the public website I by messaging credits just to clarify when they do that credit card purchase there is a minimal fee which is $1 50 so traditionally $3 in this industry we're at $1 50 to load money onto an account and that's because we have to pay a merchant process but that's the only fee there is so the thank you for clarifying that so emails are actually. $0.50 a to when you load. The credits on the to the cost of $1.$6 happen and they can load up to $100 worth of credits or they could load a minimal $5 but there is that the cost of processing credit cards that we have to pass on okay. The up. Back to the intelligence system and a and managing the it's you got a pretty good one but no intelligent systems full proof correct at sure thank you. You're recognized for a question thank you madam chair I just wanted to follow up on something you mentioned earlier about being able to bundle services and in addition to the email add the phone service or video visitation and I'm I know that the phone service is something that I've gotten calls about just in terms of the cost and come to understand that that it's so costly because of. You know the the. Requirement for corrections to have to filter those conversations and make sure that there isn't you know criminal activity occurring on those calls. How it is so if let's say that the state of Arkansas took advantage of your email system and decided Hey we might want to bundle Services of it saves money do you all do anything different than what the current companies do or use for the phone service and video visitation. Well I I can tell you were certainly a different culture of company you're currently vendor is Securus technologies and the other big large vendor in corrections would be global telling GTL just so you know those companies been in the space a long time in their true predatory companies and they have been recently find numerous times security just fine $6000000 details aside $67000000 the reason is because they take advantage of the inmates in the communities and this is coming service left and right our company doesn't participate in those type of practices with all these side games like single payer calls where now there's a large fee that wasn't even really announced and things like that so that's what we do differently as a company technology wise I will tell you were true tech company where those are traditional phone companies that I kind of have a different I guess agenda. Thank you. Those costs that you're referring to Mr Logan up on your emails is that. Incoming and outgoing or do you charge for incoming in charge for outgoing or is that so each email is exactly $0.50 so it doesn't matter if it's going in or going out it to send its one way there's a couple ways this can be skin 2 is that you can actually have the email sent collect so if I'm an inmate I have 0 credits on my account but I want to send an email I can go ahead and send to collect email and then the public can choose to spend their credits to open it and then the other thing I want to clarify is that our emails are extremely long we allow up to 30000 characters type which is basically a typed pages so it's a huge value it's a better value than the US postal service not only from a cost standpoint but obviously a speed and efficiency standpoint. Thank you senator garner you're recognized for a question. Thank you so. Which are privileged communications say with attorneys that are representing the clients who are in jail you mentioned that it turns will be pre vetted for an additional layer of security in what way with these attorneys be pre vetted and how do you ensure that privileged communications art either violated or you run into any kind of legal issues while doing that. Sure good questions so the agency actually pre vets the attorneys through our software application so if I'm an attorney and I go on our website because I want to communicate through the email system only okay. The email system we provide privilege communication so I'm attorney I can send directly to my client but in order to do that I have to create a privileged attorney profile which then goes to the agency in the agency can then verify with that attorney is by making the Attorney upload government issued ID picture of themselves the attorney bar number and then in that process we collect things like their I. P. address their email address their phone number their credit card their GPS locations are all part of that application that they don't even see happens in the background so those are some of the processes to that that I am not going to tell anyone here full anyone here that there are ways to you know manipulate things and and look at this intelligence in these services are only going to be as good as the people administering that application but I can tell you this is the best in the industry and there are ways to to really streamline what's going on which are far better than what's in place or lack of in place today okay I just maybe a bigger of the current process and some of the other turns talk about this but this kind of pre reading of your representation this collecting information on the attorneys that represent you that to me seems like a slippery slope that is. In my opinion some dangerous consequences have you seen those issues have any other states for you provided this is many kind of either challenges to this kind of communication or anything that would preclude either for legal or for the representation aspect of that. The not a loaded question yeah a lot of questions but good questions not a loaded question okay we'll. 2 fronts so just to understand we've been doing privileged email communication for 12 years in correctional facilities we have never had a breach we have never had anyone have anything privilege become on privilege so no lawsuits on that front our legal mail process with the postal mail because that's a different service those attorneys are not provided so an agency can not require someone to be pre vetted you can't tell someone Hey before you're able to send US postal mail lesser constitutional right you can't tell them yet the pre vetted so you're able to do that and then process the mail physically through the cart that has been challenged in court and I was dismissed in court because we're not violating anyone's laws wait a court CA this is also being used in the ninth District Court as well so that's one of the more challenging areas and and this is been use for 3 years now with 0 problems thank you. Senator Chesterfield you're recognized for a question. Sorry I thought I hit the button we're yes there you go I am here on now all right thank you madam chair for allowing me to ask a question of being a member of the committee I'm always interested when we have individuals visit our state as to what led you to us here in the state of Arkansas. Okay so we do a lot of business in the state of Arkansas with this exact technology provided to many county jails and have been for many years been a very successful program we have talked to your state DO see numerous occasions done many presentation there's interest there and I work with the a firm here that had suggested we present this to to you all and I think that it would have some interest to to you guys you have all that information and and do with it what you put in your visit with the department of correction what was a response to your to your particular product. Interested effective on their own have implemented some things that are kind of take aways from our presentation a couple years ago it's been a couple your process I think they're very interested I can't speak for them I mean I'm just from my shoes but they seem interested and 8 I think it's been a more I matter of allowing in the proper context contract timing because we're trying to make this free to the state and but in order to make it free to the state we have to have some sort of revenue to pay our employees to do this I was not really going to be free to the state well it is free to the state your agency will never doesn't have to cut us $1 I can tell you that so what do you get your money that. Through the use of the email platform but if we're not allowed to implement our email platform that we have $0 coming to our company which means we can't provide anything okay so there is money flowing. Through the email class the email platform approximately how much money from the email platform will flow to you because people don't do something for nothing and if they do it's usually not something we should do so help me with that. While it is yet to be determined I don't know until we do it what that the last place you were on the last company we are the last date with whom you did business what was the amount of money that you're going from that. Well on a per inmate basis I would tell you. It's probably around 8 to $10 an inmate a month would be are probably average email revenue and approximately how many folks do we have because I know you research this so that would end up being about what overall I'm not that good at math but a I believe how many inmates do we have currently I think we're a prior on 15 we have 16000 and so you're talking about doing $10 what is that 60000. The no it's more than that in. I think 1.6000000 I'm a social studies major so help me with that I don't. Here but. But it will be a substantial amount in order to for you to get it so it's not ready nothing in life is free. Well no so the work we're going to make money as a company we're going to provide this service but you also have to look at we are providing hardware to 16000 people at 0 cost to those people is there an initial cost of purchasing the hardware 0 cost 0 because you already have hardware just hanging around we do that you give to us for free that's right. Really been doing it for 10 years that's all right if you know I'm I'm of the age where if it sounds too good to be true it almost 2 years but it'll be interesting to see thank you madam chair for allowing me to ask a few questions I appreciate you. Represents Slape you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair Mister Logan how many of Arkansas counties do you serve if you refresh my memory please. I I I I believe it's somewhere around 10 at the moment how many of you served in the past follow up ma'am probably around a dozen maybe 15 or 1.. point Okay thank you. Represent Collins you're recognized for a question. Thank you and I was actually asking her questions along the same lines as senator Chesterfield and also a representative site so I guess one of them is do we actually to do anything as a legislature to make this happen is if ATC wanted to do a contract with you all with their need to be any legislation or or preparation for action on our part this one second question is I don't know if anyone from the shares for the counties had any insight as to the experience of the counties where the jails with this and and could share if not that's okay I know it's put me on the spot but just was a little bit curious about that from a perspective of people who have done this in Arkansas thanks Hey I just met before you answer that in regard to your question representative Collins DO see if they entered into a contract that contracting comes to A. L. C. for review okay so that that would answer that question. I know legislation it would be my understanding of the no legislation but it's going to be a contractor you just like we review any other country so I think that handles your first question so. Former yes you're recognized. Okay. Mon the U. S. representative Collins of the powers that be came to leadership including the chairs of this committee and asked us to come to this presentation and we thought you all would be interested and would be appropriate for you to see it as much as US of but. This is a normal process your bid process except roll of department of corrections is interested in it and I think appropriately so. And so of we thought that you should see a button and ask your questions so just the normal process. Russia is the answer you're pretty much your first question you might wanna repeat your second question. Investors the first yes thank you I didn't know if there were any people here who could share any insights from having worked with the system from the county standpoint and if not that's okay just to know who we have here. I think we can probably get some of that information out will S. the company if they would provide at least a list of folks that you are currently serving in the state of Arkansas so when they send out the slides to you if you can also include that information would that help you out represent Collins if they can get that information to you like that. With that be fine okay our representative Richardson you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair back here again. Couple questions regarding the business itself is the technology you're using currently proprietary yes. And. As we look at this in a you probably can answer this at almost my from deal seek I'm here I'm curious to know what's our average amount of labor hours that are used to do mac mail right now can we reach out the deals we can we can Wallace the Department Allison's taking some notes and shall at a if you have any specific questions that we can't get answered today if you'll let either senator Clark or me know will make sure that that gets to the right people to get those answers will that status quo be required me in the last thing is just what is what is the typical contract length of these relationships. Sure so the the labor side of things I look I don't have specifics on this agency because I haven't shared with me but I can tell you traditionally what was an 8 hour workday for someone in the mail room usually turns into about 1 hour work day for someone in the mail room with this system I mean you have at least 1 if not 2 to 3 people in each 1 of your DO see facilities which I think you have around 20 so should have around 4050 people they're spending the whole day doing that which could be reduced to about an hour a day so that's just kind of the high level but contract terms usually we we shoot for like a 5 year contract that's pretty standard for us I think it's standard in our particular industry because there is a significant investment with this product because we're gonna go around to each facility and install a wifi network in to all of your agency which actually benefits you see a lot because now you get a new infrastructure at no cost to the state so it's something we pay for as a company it's all part of our system so we usually go for a 5 year contract. To take care of everything. Represent flowers you're recognized for a question. Thank you I'm really interested in this just because of the implications to the issues around controlling the drugs that come into our prisons and I attended I think maybe year before last or maybe in 19 before covid there was a. At a meeting that we had had to explore that issue and I think. It was not only the male was not only used to bring in fat and all that I think K. 2 which has had some detrimental effects. In our state and so when you say that this 100 percent eradicates this particular issue we know we still have. To Senator Stephanie civil bills point. Other ways for drugs to enter into the system. But I think this is super significant coupled with the points that you made about. The the but the cost to families who are often poor to communicate with inmates in the implication to re entry some very interested also believe along with senator Chesterfield that you know we have to make sure that something that sounds too good to be true isn't and one of the things that I've texted on since we started talking about this was to find out what our inmates are currently using and then use thank you email and she said and they're currently using and he for I guess players and I'm not sure and I believe you mentioned that here they have to inmates have to purchase those do you have any idea what that cost is to the inmates since they pay the same amount for the emails right now that they would pay with you all. Yes so what they're referring to when they say the MP 4 players is the inmates are buying what they call an MP 4 player because not really a real tablet we're talking about providing real tablets that are are live wifi enabled what's currently happen is your vendors kind of going the cheap route on your agency where they're not installing a network they're not having these big overhead costs and then they're telling your inmate population Hey thank you guys pay us for the stuff we're proposing a completely different model I don't know the cost of the tablet the MP 4 players are buying my guess is they're probably somewhere between 60 to $100 that's pretty standard and then so there's that cost with us we would be providing these to all inmates including the infrastructure to the agency at no cost but you gotta remember. The vendor providing them the 4 players now is a food distributor Keefe commissary that's there will house it's not technology we're not in the commissary business were in the technology business which is why this sounds a little bit too good. Your own. Yes okay one quick follow up if it if you got this contract and let's say you had an inmate who who received one of the tablets. I'm assuming that when they leave the system then they the tablet would stay with ABC. Correct okay yep the. Just yeah every tablet we would be assigned actually that specific housing unit so it's kind of like if I'm an inmate there's going to be 50 tablets on the wall I can go over there and I can grab when I can log into my account instantly loads all of my personal settings and in in contact and and communication and that and that makes sense I think. To the state that is when you say it's free that sounds good I just want everyone in the room to be clear just like any business you know a lot of times a company will provide the hardware to sell the services but it's still really remains with the company and I think people understand that then it won't sound like you're giving free laptops to inmates and. You know like you trying to say something is free when it's really a cost of doing business and you earn a profit just like any other company so thank you yes correct just to help everyone understand is we are supplying the hardware the infrastructure and we're making our money back through the usage which is voluntarily usage of the service I just think our services is very good which is why inmates choose to use it we have a 10 year record of doing this and more comfortable you know provide this at no cost and we'll take that gamble. Thank you madam chair of the members that have been texting me questions of of what is your a percentage of success if you know on a matrix of room returning to prison after they've been through rehab program. I don't have that information I think you know there's so many different factors that I couldn't say where the reason for the success or failure I think we're a company that can contribute to programs that you're already doing but I don't have statistics illness or thank you. Members I see no other questions Mr lead and we appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you today and thank you for coming members I want to remind you if you have some questions that maybe you if you think of this not been asked today if you will let either senator Clark or may know or let Alice and know we'll get those out we'll send that out in an email to each member of the committee so you'll have that Mr Lee would you like to make any closing remarks at this time I recognize you to do that otherwise thank you for coming okay I appreciate everyone's time and great questions and look I look forward to hopefully putting some together the benefits all people involved not just the agency but the communities thank you thank you. Shift back over here. As we go to Adham FOR agenda update on core operations in response to COVID 19 which we're probably overdue. At looking into but we've all been very busy. Wished we hope the courts have been. We know we have been. Of a seat Christian Clark Jennifer crawling. Coming. S. the. And the someone with them. Yeah Brian's gonna bring a chair up there. Not a we've got some other people. Not listed here that may be of help. Of what each of you starting from my left your right uh defy yourself for the record. And. Who you your name and of we work for position and we work for. Stop racing director of these your microphone I'll. I'm Scott graves on the director of the office of research plus the 6 for the AOC right. Jennifer cry and I'm the director of the juvenile division of the AOC. Kristyn Clarke I'm the director of the legal services division at the administrative office of the courts. I'm Brian wells executive director of Arkansas Commission preparing council. We're going to hear from you all first. And then we've of. We'll probably hear from some other folks and got Greg parish here for the next agenda item what I would like to hear from the public defender's on this and maybe some other so who'd like to start. Senator Clark I'd be happy to start. Okay of. Christian go ahead. First I'd like to thank you all for inviting AOC to the table to discuss the impact of COVID 19 on the court system director Sullivan has asked that I apologize on his behalf he wished he could be here today in person but had a conflict on his calendar is also asked that I let you all know that we're currently working on the 2021 edition of the Arkansas judiciary annual report to the community as once it's finalized you will will be provided copies he also wanted me to let you know that if you have any questions or concerns please feel free to call him at any time. It's been a little over a year since I last was in front of you all to discuss the impact of COVID 19 in the courts. At that time I told you that the Supreme Court had been very clear with all of our Arkansas courts that the courts were to remain open that they must continue to carry out the core constitutional functions and must also ensure that litigants have the ability to seek redress for. Any kind of cause of action that affects them. Despite what you all may have been hearing the case numbers for the past year do you actually look quite good the judges are moving large numbers of cases even with a large number of new judges taking the bench in January of 2021 under if you all would agree very unusual circumstances when we look at the number of cases that have been filed and then we look at the number of cases that have been disposed of during that 1 year period the clearance rate is 91 percent. As you all know the COVID 19 numbers evolve and change rapidly currently the circuit judges in the District Court judges have the discretion to decide whether or not to suspend jury trials whether or not to hold virtual hearings and also whether or not to continue cases and how to manage the operations in their own individual courts the Supreme Court currently believes that circuit and district judges are in the best situation to determine what should be happening at a local level and can also take the actions that are necessary to respond in individual communities and to ensure that the public. Isn't exposed to any unnecessary risk. We also know that the circuit and District Court judges are working to strike a balance. Between protection of public health and also the protection of an individual's right to access the court system A. O. C. is working to ensure that technology is improved with all of our courts. When we improve the technology it allows them to be more accessible to the public it also allows them to operate with greater efficiency and also to be more productive in the last year we had 10 additional courts who have come on to the filing light system and they're an additional 7 courts that will be added soon this covers 70 percent of Arkansas counties at this time. We also know that by eliminating the conventional method of paper filing that it reduces cost it also reduces the number of trips into our clerks offices and members of the public can also be benefited because they have access to these documents in a timely complete and accurate manner. A civil jury trials are currently. Being conducted both in person or by video conference. Criminal jury trials still must be conducted in person with limited exceptions for someone who has an underlying medical condition that would place them at a higher risk if someone is at a higher risk of that person may participate remotely. More dire is still conducted by video conference by agreement of the parties. And at this point all deferred to you all for any questions that you might have. The rest of you of have presentation of so we'll go to you before we go to questions. Well senator Clark and I can add that the juvenile courts have been working very hard to continue and conducting the business of the courts and the juvenile courts of were in and the fortunate situation of having a pilot using the virtual technologies soon in a couple of courts before COVID took place and so when when when the pandemic began. That enabled the administrative office of the courts to use that that technology and to allow the courts to pivot to to virtual hearings when needed and they've continued using that technology when necessary as as miss Clark referenced and many of the courts have allowed attorneys and or parties to participate virtually at times when needed if they're in a high risk situation they've been quarantine they're still able to participate in a court hearing virtually but at the same time most of the courts at this time are holding many of the hearings in person as well. Thank you. I'm I don't have a presentation of I'm here to answer any questions that you might have if you want to inquire further into the numbers of the case the dispositions filings for the last year years prior. Right. Yes thank you I don't have a presentation per se but I understand you were provided with the spreadsheet that ID create based on. Responses from my attorneys in these individual judicial areas I didn't hear from every attorney but I did hear from at least one attorney in all but 2 judicial districts. As you can see from the this spreadsheet there's a mishmash of how things are being approached across the state sometimes even in in within a particular judicial district different judges are doing different things. There's a mix of whose requiring masks and who's not there's a mix of who's doing in person versus zoom or other technological platforms I did not have anybody report any delays in cases moving along as a result of covid although COVID related we do have some issues with DCFS having submitted sufficient staff to provide services to our parents in some instances which is causing delays and some of our cases and then of course we've got cast as some complaints out of Pulaski County about the fact that they took away the third judicial did judge in that district which cause some delays when that transition took place but other than that everybody seems to be on time and moving along. Obviously if you have any questions I'm here to answer. Senator Garner. Thank you Mr chairman so they're uses them or other similar remote technology was used extensively by the court and many different. Proceedings this last year to have M. F. is my understanding I've seen it for the Supreme Court again or arguments through zoom or some other similar platform I believe both criminal and civil cases of done through that and am I correct assessment. Senator garner that is correct okay that's interesting because last session I passed a law which kind of that understanding that if a child who is in a criminal case for sexual abuse they can actually use remote technology to testify we are allow this within current code for closed circuit televisions within the court I'm hearing from parents and some prosecutors that judges out there aren't honoring this motion to do that that they're actually saying that this is their preview as a court and they've been denied that so I think it's interesting that for last year and I have that's been the standard practices it when the court wants to do it through the guidance of the Supreme Court has been using multiple different fashions and now that the General Assembly has passed a law to build on that as we have many other things to resume that the courts may be trying to blow up on us in their judicial power have you heard of anything like that or any kind of guidance you can give the courts in the manner. Senator garner thank you for the question and. My understanding is that zoom or virtual technologies are being used at when the parties agree I mean they're not. They're not being used in all cases and so there are many cases where there are constitutional rights involved due process issues criminal cases where attorneys or parties you know have a concern about the use of virtual technology and so an objection is made and the hearing is is not held in that manner so I think in answer to your question those cases where there is potentially a child witness in a sex abuse case if the parties raise an issue about that that hearing wouldn't be held virtually. Thank you. Okay this may be. And I'm sorry what's your name again you're still 19 this not typed in here. Scott graves scope Mr rotors. Of. Not. Where are we. Compared to pre covid of as far as hell of backed up the courts are. Of statistically. Our most recent a year date is 20202021 numbers are are incomplete at this point unfortunately and 2020 comparing 20202019 gives us a pretty good of the Mabel to put into context pretty well the impact of the pandemic. The declining for and and of course the pandemic and impact both on the number of cases incoming in terms of filings also on the on the activities of the courts and their their ability to to close or dispose of cases. In 2020 the number of incoming cases filed in all on a level supports district Supreme Court was 1000000 606 our 1000 61 sorry 1000000 6000 600 32 cases. CPOs cases was 912860. In the previous year 2019 number for incoming filings was 1000000 250 1000 900 89 980. And dispositions were 1000037. thousand 1 or 94 so from 2019 to 2020 filings declined by about 25 percent 24.4 percent Restos positions only declined by 13.6 percent so the impact on filings was actually greater than the impact on dispositions still the they're they're still just a discrepancy between the 2 dispositions are lower than filings which means we do have a build up and and pending caseload but that impact is not as great as it would have been if if if the courts had not been. Keeping up in some cases making making up ground on cases that are coming and not if if I took what I just heard you say at face value I would here there was no lag time there was no increase lead time in 2020 of. And waiting for trials. I can't speak to that unfortunately I can speak to. Filings dispositions but the the method of disposition I don't have information on that at this time. Consumptive the going to want to hear from somebody else on the it anything from miss Clark miss crawling on the. On the increase like Tom. So Senator Clark the last time I visited with you always in December of I think of 2020. Seems about right and at that time I shared with you that the court was instituting several different. Things in order to keep the case logo in one of those has been the utilization of special judges who are typically retired circuit court judges are being recalled in appointed to help move the case along so what we think is that is helping significantly with the backlog of cases that we were originally concerned about. Do we think we've caught up. I don't think that we've caught up but I think that they are doing a very good job of managing that one of the issues with completely catching up has to do with access to court rooms and when you have your circuit judges who are currently sitting in those courtrooms running their normal docket sometimes it's challenging to find a court room for a special judge to also run his docket or her docket at the same time so while we're caught we're catching up I don't know that we're there yet again and 91 percent clearance rate over the last year indicates that the special judges are working and so were the elected judges very hard. Well I have no doubt the judge's or working very hard and and I very much understood C. stand. The difficulties that they face them and let's start with with March of 2020 when none of us knew where this was going and then may 1 of may and June. Of that put up that put them behind but at the same time it put them way behind and there was a great fear etcetera it also put people in jail waiting. And families. In children waiting of. From the get go so I understood their difficulties and they have difficulties that I don't have. Because the N. under and I say that because I did record business in 2020 I did record business again in 2021. Okay we're just. We're we're just going okay just constantly people coming in people going out. You know sans mask no sense plexiglass just were disco but again are but I understand some the differences the people come into my store coming involuntarily Notre may come into a court's coming involuntarily I thank the people coming in my store. Of can move around freely people come in a court room often are confined intent and have to sit there so there there are some differences of. That being said. I would like I think that the. The legislature of the state of Arkansas. And so and I've been busy with said business. So I'm probably haven't given specific enough instructions the. A lot of us you know have been in touch with people you know who have set in jails. Much longer than they normally would. Waiting for us to go record and so. I would like to hear more specifics about how we're that that we are catching up I would I would tend to think that we are the but I would like to hear that we are and and are we in certain areas of the state are we not in other areas of the state not just a blanket well yes everything's kind of okay. Unless everything really is okay. Of but we got areas where things aren't going so well and we got areas where things are just really rocking along of we need to know so what is happening. So I can tell you again that the clearance rate is very promising it tells us that the backlog is being addressed the other thing that I can tell you as far as hi folks who are currently detained and are waiting disposition you know that's all pre trial in a sense and one of the things that the court did as he directed all of the circuit judges in the District Court judges to look at their dockets and if there were criminal cases that had been outstanding for a period of 12 months for a defendant either didn't receive a bond or. Perhaps they were set received a bond but they hadn't been able to meet that they were asked to go back in and take a look at that and evaluate if there was any reason why upon couldn't be reconsidered so it's our understanding that those things are happening and have been happening over the whole course of the pandemic since the court ordered that and that circuit court's or not only. Review in the stock it's but in many cases are doing them with their local sheriffs being involved in that decision making and also both circuit judges and district judges combined so as far as the folks who were just sitting we think that's being addressed as well you know anecdotally I can I can tell you that we're not getting those types of calls if you would like for us to sit down with Scott and try to quantify that in a statistical sense we can see if that's possible but I think what I heard him say today is that we don't have a way to quantify that currently. Whereas I can't speak to dispositions by type the the night that 91 percent clearance rate isn't isn't a yearly figure for 2020 I have been keeping track of the circuit of the circuit courts within the circuit courts of general jurisdiction courts of criminal and in other areas the the balance of dispositions in filings by month and as 1 would expect in the months immediately following the at the implementation or the the introduction the pandemic and the emergency order and March eleventh twenty twenty the number of criminal cases filed or opened of vastly outnumber the number of criminal cases that were disposed during that brief period of time Pete and. May of 2020 where over 2000 more cases were filed criminal cases were filed in the circuit courts and dispose but that was the peak since then it's fallen of every month since then. And during 2020 or 21 and in 2 months it's dropping below or should it stop below 0 in other words the clearance rate has been higher than 100 percent we the the circuit courts disposed of more criminal cases than they had coming in in both April in August of 2021. And it's then the the the the balance has been hovering between -200 meaning more cases dispose more cases closed then opened and about 500 of more cases open and close so from that from that the that peak immediately following the the the beginning the pandemic to now we've got that we have that have a pretty a pretty much better it will ever and I would say. A. Christian at one thing it might be helpful in having sat on the bench and in been there and know that you don't ever get caught up I mean it you when you think you've got your docket cleared you come in the next week and you've got a full docket so there's never a complete where you have 0 cases I think that but what I would like to ask if it's possible in Scott maybe you can tell me whether it's not if you could provide this committee may be up a snapshot of the last 5 years as to the number of cases that have been filed for 5 years ago that you know for each of those years and how those cases those number cases how many at the end of the year got disposed of just so we can have an idea of the fact just like you mentioned we have declining cases but at the same time we've got a 91 percent clear rate I think that might I understand what you're saying having been on the bench but I think seeing it in the paper for in a form that we can actually look at I think that would be very helpful to the Committee and so if you would do that but it but I'll tell the committee members so I'm not a testifying I guess and when I am when you're on the bench you don't ever have a 0 cases it just doesn't happen all you can do is just keep keep that it and I applaud and and I appreciate exhibit F. I think that's very helpful and I would refer the committee to look at that I think it's very helpful in what what they're doing but I also think be helpful for people to understand that we do have declining cases being filed so to look at that I think that be helpful so if you could do that that be appreciative you consented to Alison Alison will get it out to our committee and I think that would be very helpful thank you. Yes ma'am I'll take care of that. Yes and of then let me apologize anything that you don't have is probably my fault of miss Clark and Mr Crosland of a. I'm not did not call you by your first names as old lack of respect of the of a just we were so busy this year that the last 2 weeks and I thought I would work on this of I spent trying to get things done before new year's eve at midnight so of and then had a foreign market last week in my other job of so I'm going to ask that you will not leave we probably won't need you back of but since we have no other questions with this Michelle for the moment and I will ask the prosecutors and public defenders Arkansas association of counties and looks like we probably got somebody from the sheriff's association we have 4 chairs appear if you all could come up get a quick perspective from you. Hillman starting from my left you're right if make sure the mocs rona fuel defy yourself for the record. Larkana sheriff John Staley. Mark Whitmore socialist Arkansas counties bombing man prosecutor coordinator. Greg parish Arkansas public defender commission. A. The of. Greg start with you of how or where how do. What was the worse it got and how much is it improved of and where do we need to go. Are we back to normal is far as the of courts. Of with a since the pandemic. Thank you senator. I can only speak to the criminal cases and and I know we heard the figures I don't know if that includes. The forces probate. I am only discussing criminal cases because that's all that I have knowledge of. And in my opinion. Is the worst right now that it's ever been. And I'll just say that because. Have I've talked to the judges from Texarkana available Jonesborough Central Arkansas in fact we had a meeting here 2 weeks ago. It is reported to me that the 3 full time criminal judges we have here in Pulaski we have for criminal judges here in Pulaski. 3 of which handle. Nothing but criminal cases 100 percent criminal cases. I have just been confirmed. 10 minutes ago through my office that those each one of those judges. Has over 3000 active cases on their docket that's what I'm told. The one part time judge has approximately 12 to 1400 somewhere in that range. The judges was reported to me by another judge in south Arkansas. 2 county district 3 judges. This was about 3 weeks ago they were maintaining 1900 active cases each roughly. You get to faithful. One time because I was in that office we were setting trials out 60 days from arraignment. We used to call that the rocket docket under judge store. Now they're getting set out roughly 9 months. That's my assessment of. With the criminal cases and only talk about the felonies I know the district courts that handle misdemeanors they have their issues to. But I'm talking about the criminal cases felonies. Bob you have a different opinion similar opinion of no Sir I probably be a little bit different perspective I mean as well Mister Paris actually supervises those individual or going to court you may have a little more and better understanding of the actual numbers but for my you know standpoint I don't think we're you know we've solved a problem everywhere there's still tremendous not a backlog in certain jurisdictions in Arkansas and I have heard from some jurisdictions may be smaller jurisdictions where they don't have quite the backlog but I can echo the concerns here Pulaski County in fact I've you know talked if you committee members of out the possibility of exploring whether there's future of you know cares money or future rescue no American rescue plan money of for both prosecutors and public defenders you know to assist with the backlog if we determine that the charger stations that would benefit from that so I know again I regularly hear from some jurisdictions about the backlog not so much on others I think we can attribute that to you know it's it has been the same across the board when we resume trials you know when the obviously when the supreme court issues an opinion that it all in person your trial stop that would be the same consistently statewide but when we started resuming trials there were some jurisdiction to write jurisdictions that were able to resume faster they had facilities up above you procedures in place to allow them to get back to court and other jurisdictions were able to do that so I don't have a you know set across the board answer but I would think we still have a tremendous problem in certain parts of the state I hope that helps. Thank you. Mark I as a former former quorum court member I know that you guys should know whether people are sitting in jail longer or not so what's going on well the them to do the big picture back when COVID hit. Both the state federal government and the counties are started only holding felonies and certainly ballot felonies so my closer I'm sorry most counties course point holding misdemeanors for good here in the House of also non violent felonies were not being held. And so they've lowered the capacity because that's to congregate setting you don't wanna backs people out and having it covered so we manage covid that's how the Joe for being managed to try to avoid that calamity so what happened was. What awards paga. And so right after we bought the we had the green light sure started serving a warrant to case increased and then the jails got full what know if you'll notice but we keep track of the state penitentiary in our county jails like you mentioned Mr chairman of very often will have 1500 people backed up from state prisoners are county jails will now it's around 2300. And so our jails are full. When that happens you don't serve once again. And so we have it's not my perception I don't believe the shares perception that we're we've managed to this process yet. And the backlog of I think we're gonna talk about public defenders later. There is a in ordinance backlog that existed before coverage. There's a lot of folks that sit in jail waiting to talk to the the public defender right to get a court date right resolve their case and COVID certainly made that much worse but who we honor fourth wave is covered in our shares or have a manager general both with COVID mine in the criminal justice system so I would anticipate I think the sheriff the to the once again we've got a flood of warrants. But we're jails are full I mean I'm talk about full we've got Washington County there to sleep on the floor they can't hold Madison County anymore so it's not as bad as it's gotten in well in 8 years outside far as back up and that's impacting the whole system from our standpoint of the chair Staley marcom sheriff. Marcon is Joyner said Bestwood when you come to order the jails you're having a quarantine and we're only taking and violent. Criminals. Feel to appears or a because the judges are working with us on send bonds lower you know bonded out we're going all over the country to pick people up if it's a D. felony we're not picking him up we're gonna record even if you're in Florida somewhere like that where we used to go get him because we have interstate compact we need to get them right now with the with the covid with the courts backed up we're looking at he said about 8 or 9 months that's that's a good average sometimes a year before we get to trial on violent crimes and that that has nothing to do with the staffs and they're they're trying to plea amount but this thing is just not stopping this the worst we've had. We're at Max capacity 150 beds and we're usually 116 interim covered we got down about 120 to try to have room for quarantine but. With with I was gonna break I started picking up some filter appears when I say it's out of here the card in the jail the way to go to trial and you only got so many days to get to the trial speedy trial and we. As a sheriff we're doing everything we can to go get the people that need to be locked up. In their some of their the you know I get grievances all the time grievances request one to talk to public defenders but they're they're so overwhelmed. With the other cases they're working. They're not able to come see them and we're going to do zoom meetings you can only do so many zone meetings because you only have so many so much room what are council or county judges here with us today too but. We're we're look in our courtrooms are not big enough. Due to the because constitutionality of certain cases you got I have people in that court room. And there's not room to have jury trials because we weren't prepared for jury jury trial jury set closer than we are. We don't have the space so we're having upon. This is to have trials and events were backed up. Yes agree with the. What county did you say you're from it was Logan. Lonoke loner and didn't mean overlooked county judge but I could see the bad so. Of the of let's go to represent flowers. Thank you Mr I'm wondering. What and any one of you are all if you can speak to these questions but. How many of as it relates to the county jails how many of those who are in jail. Are in jail for nonviolent offenses. Well in our case I can't speak for every shares but we we talk a lot and a majority of them are are in there for violent crimes of some sort because most of the non violence at this possession of amphetamines up to a certain amount possession drugs or products. They're they're being cited on the street before we ever get to jail even though it's a felony. And when they get to court we take a minute fingerprint on that's about it's got a times responsible,nd and when we do recommend a lot of times are are really Senator gardens now we have a recovery program so we have about 15 that they signed up to do the recovery. But they all 9 of those that code now so. There thank god there are recording with each other but. There's most of them in every county jail is in some sort of violent crime committed and connected to violence. Follows. Always thank you so if do you all have any idea what kind of impact this is having on of that crime rates incidence of crime and especially in those areas that you mentioned Klasky county southeast. I'm assuming you may have been talking about Jefferson County and then in Washington County. I will say this I let I think the Shepherd speak to it but keep in mind Arkansas. Annually is ranked fourth or fifth in violent crime in the compared to other states and I do know over the past few years that there are areas that did not have a high violent crime rate in the covered head of and whether it's cost back over the last 2 years they've got areas that didn't used to have about. I think the sheriff my better speech. Over the last 10 years we've had 13 capital murders in law county which is unprecedented but those are types of crimes and you can't there's a person person usually domestic situation where it's hard for law enforcement of the government to intervene in those which have meant like little rock little rock shootings it's it's. They they're not going to jail for so a lot of times we use federal charges. To get them sent away for a little bit for gun charges and violent crime charges and I know it at the location's office we have I have 2 guys assigned to department homeland security. And we also have one assigned to the DA's so we can start charging federally so they actually go away for a little bit and Loretta that for years and it started helping but then they stopped that initiative. We need to target place we don't need to go out and and just pick up the the right the tickets and stuff we need to get the violent offenders off the streets we're holding them but as you can see we just have another one that there was release from court because. Trying to get paperwork shuffled in this matter in a small police department got arrested but he he gets out of jail because he's on parole you the ankle monitor he cuts it off he goes out and kill somebody we tracked him down he's locked up but. If that's the system ram because we're so backed up that you're even mitigating the violent crimes which ones. Which ones of those are you gonna lead out that's where some of us are in jails in our jails are we seeing some of the same patterns and other states. Yes we are there any specifically on a national level we're considered a rural state and I'm of the national rural steering committee that deals with these issues and these types of problems. We're you get in and when I'm talking to my people here I said you've got to think outside the boundaries of Pulaski County you're not the only county in the state of governor Hutchinson if you go asking governor Hutchinson folks for money you got 74 other counties to come to the same thing you're not the only player in this. There is no magical solution but I can tell you from from its inception. I think we recognized. At the moment how important it was to do something and so the prosecution we moved a lot of cases or. That we can't move today. Hoping that this will be over. But I will tell you. What has occurred and but I will say because the here but I put it in writing the shares have been amazing. Because depending on what county you're in depends upon whether or not you can go to the jail not because they're worried about what we're going to catch coming in this what we're going to bring into their jail. And and we recognize that. It into I don't know if we've had any issues with if we've had anything. I feel comfortable picking up the phone just call the sheriff in talking to him or her Mr Bradley and said Hey can we what we do with this it was immediately address the been great the county is like what's missed what more I call probably weekly services so if it's been going on. But. We're not moving cases and it has that huge huge ripple effect we're doing everything. Pretty much there some just telling us coming and before this last wave it. And I sent out an email last week on my managers and say. Anywhere are you having problems getting into jails. One percent if we can't get them the shares are accommodating us through video. But I understand that can only go so far because they have a schedule as well feeding and access to the room because there's basically only one room. Maybe 2. Of even gone so far to have 3 justice bridge terminals put into my office downtown and and advertise to the local defense for at large whether you're a public defender or not it's here use it because I spend a means to get to the department of corrections as well. But there's only so many hours of the day. And there's only so many people you can address. And I know it's frustrating I hear from families I hear from defendant's I get the letters I get the letter sent to me that are sent to the governor's office. And I don't know a solution I really don't but I do know this because there has been talk about approaching the governor for some of the scariest money that is made ma'am as indicated. I don't know if it's even available if it can be used for this purpose. But if it is you've got to bring the counties involved too because there was. They are responsible for the facilities. And it's not just bringing in judges it's court reporters as prosecutors it's public defenders it's probation it's everybody that has a finger in this pot we call the judicial system the criminal justice system. Thank you. Senator Garner. Thank you Mr chairman of. When I first say I know all you gentlemen are working hard is to try to clear that docket and I have no doubt that what you're doing is trying to be in the best of Arkansas whether it's prosecutors working to get those cases prosecutor weathers of finished work for the best thing the county's sheriff's. But it sounds like to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this is becoming a public safety issue where the pressure on our judicial system is so advanced that the deal is you have to make more deals that aren't necessarily I would say the best public interest but it's because you have to clear bed space you have to get the plan you have to port where you like to prosecute somebody or like to pose in jail but you can't because of the realities not because you're soft on crime or your week or anything like that so because the realities of them deal with this and I think I agree with you that the extensive rise in murders in the city and many others in this state the rise in violent crimes is directly attributed to our COVID 19 response and when I hear you know Greg speak about the money of course is always part of that I understand that correctly my wrong it seems like our COVID 19 policies are what's driving this less so than money less so than other issues that have been limited space in the court room or have isolation because the COVID outbreak or having all these restrictions that we've had for the last 18 months that is supposed to Testens trainer system is now to the breaking point and that we are you would be better off if you're allowed to make your own decisions when it comes to COVID 19 restrictions as well as money staffing issues some of the natural pressures are bars feeling in my misinterpreted that that maybe that COVID 19 restrictions the guidance that shall be going under that the realities of having to live under quarantine and isolation is what's driving this much as anything else. Senator. I'm not so sure that it is the policy of this some of a problem with. Of what I will tell you is in. In speaking with people all over the state. You know I got to an email this morning because the and through no fault I don't blame anybody but it's my understanding the Jefferson County courthouse to shut down this week because of the outbreak because I don't have enough people at work we can't. Do it it's I've got attorneys I just got a text message back years she's positive. The problem is how we get out of this because in speaking with elected prosecutor washing down the consumer friend last week he is personally himself caring 22 active homicide cases he's family. If we were doing that that the malpractice. 2 months ago the Jefferson County chief deputy down there thank you for quite board in his office. He had over 50 active homicide cases on the white board okay great man wrote you can Mr why then what is driving I guess that's why I'm missing the point if you're saying it's not COVID related if you're saying it's just money and staffing what drives that why is that happening now versus 18 months ago was like I said senator some of it is. But when you can't I equated to this. Do you want to see your surgeon may be performing a life altering decision through video. Well you want to see that person in person I think or I would let me say that. I don't think people charged with crimes during different they want to be able to look for attorney in the eye and I want to look them in the eye and tell them. Here's your exposure do you understand. If you choose to go to trial will try to get to a trial. But when you can't get in the sale rightfully so I understand the policies it's really hard to convince some of anything through a screaming you but that point is numer you just spoke of is a direct COVID 19 restriction that is preventing you from getting in front of those of those the defendant's is not like I said yes part of it is but I will also tell you this. No defendant in my experience. It's going to sign up to go to prison until he or she has to stop what happens if they're out on the street. They're certainly not eager to come in and take a plea that we may say this is a great player you need to take it. Nobody wants to get into the system if they don't have to in there on the streets because the jails are over field because of the COVID 19 both route breaks legitimate and they can't fill the jails to normal capacity and staffing issues because COVID 19 misinterpret net or they make bond or to make calls bonds of got lower because of the 19 to get the nonviolent offenders on the street so they can make that bond okay sure school into the. I would like to add that we were full coming into this or jails were full in the county and was this is a situation we've always been fighting is full jails not have enough jail space center what we're having now to you said about staffing. We were making modular for making $11 an hour when it come up to the minimum wage we got him up we got him up there on it 1490 now we've got a great call court kind of judgment that's part of it is not having the staff because they were making more money on unemployment. So you have to have a certain number staff to keep it safe. Quarantine certain people you know jails were not built to quarantine the way we quarantine we've always quarantine tuberculosis TV but put a mask on the guy who may have tested positive but now we're but mask on everybody trying to separate amounts so that is that is a concern but. We're in the jail we had a jailer die from covid it's a serious thing just got take those universal precautions that we've always taken but it's hard to get people to work it's hard to it's hard to when when you do lock up you've got to find a spot former ready before covered ever hit so. Partly yes the code restrictions. But we were in a situation but prior to COVID she and most often senator with us when we're asking for more just a more more bed space and work with ATC. There's not been a new president built in 2003 since 2003 so your county jails are hold most of those and we do get $30 a day to hold on but the cost is. 40 or 50 and. At. The second answer your question on the share side yes yes Sir I don't know I know what I'm there's plenty of people lit up so I went on a more time anybody wanna answer they can if the chairman Alan I'll finish up this point I think we need to move on other questions is that you know we always take into effect of the people who are lost like your jailer that's very serious and covid we underplay in my opinion what the restrictions due to our public safety in numbers other issues when we add that to the calculation expressly if the system is straining like or over population jail are public defenders who have been strained at some point that system breaks it becomes more of a inhibitor do that does just to look at COVID as a black and white issue that's my point thank you for let me kind of expand on it Mr chairman. The real number of people in the queue of. The good points. The system. Was strained. And you you find out how bad your damn is. When you get record rain. Of and so both of our judiciary system and our turns out our medical system OR bowstring it seems to me just this one legislator of that the problem is one they were strained to now that they've been hit. With. But some very serious issues. Done saying that we can get out of walking in the sand of that we'd of we. One can that we have problems and then we'll move long seems like we need to have a Judiciary. What health meeting together I don't know that they want to do that because we're coming back. Of. Friday morning I was at a flooring market needing to do that work but I took the time to call a chief of staff at a hospital of who had contacted me months ago of large hospital in the state and I called and said what's really going on with with on the chronic blood fold Omicron as a full the rest of this pandemic of from the time it was discovered in South Africa. Watch the doctor on video who's credited with. Recognizing that and talked about how mild it was except for a. And so but I'm watching all of this because you know all the numbers and I knew the numbers were coming because of how. Contagious it is but also expected to be very mall but that's not what I'm seeing in the news in Arkansas or nationally what I'm saying is we got record numbers we got record numbers of people in the hospital and I'm looking down at the ventilator member. To the ventilator numbers not really changing. Of. I'm expecting record numbers to have it I'm expecting record numbers to be in the hospital or record numbers going because they health co with or you're just record numbers of people that are happen to be in the hospital that habit of committee or a symptomatic committee have a common cold but it's it is on the crown. So but Mr my conjecture call this chief of staff who said. In spite of these record numbers we have one third. Of the number of people. That we had in our COVID award that we had. When we had a peek at delta and now for. Of the real problem is though and she told me the large number nurses they had out no this is not a knock against nurses because if you test positive you're not supposed to come to work I don't know how many are a symptomatic I don't know how many have the Sniffles but we may shut the system down not because people are sick. This time around but because they tested positive. And this is and this was their words not my words this is stupid we're just testing people in a time that normally we wouldn't attested people except for the word covid that I called somebody who runs the covert war of another large hospital not the same thing but then up get up this morning in St Bernard in Jonesborough says hello you know we got all these people under actually to people done and of. But you know and so. You know so what do the what do the judges police no do we shut down our court rooms to weigh in order we have court do we do we let people in jail or do we turn them all out but the fact is is people are dying on the streets. You know people or people we've got higher crime than we've had in decades if not decades of and that's our purview. People elected us. To to watch over that and say what are we doing the right thanks. And. If it's a crisis if it's across proportion whatever. Put us here. What are we gonna do about it of and because it doesn't look like COVID going away. So how are how are we going to operate in covid. And because it can't be that we're not going to operate of so I'll get off my soapbox of it does look like the 2 committees may need to meet together because because somehow we're gonna have to have a justice system within COVID of representative Gazaway. Thank you Mr chairman my question is for Mr McMahon someone mention speedy trial earlier. And so I want to kind of clarify about that one of the reasons or one of the ways the criminal justice system works and that we keep cases moving is because we have the speedy trial rule would you agree with that Mr McMahon. Certainly yes okay and so that's a part of what keeps these cases moving because prosecutors known defense attorneys know that these cases are brought to trial within 12 months course their exclusions if the defense request a continuance for instance there's a exclusion there but otherwise if those cases are brought to trial within 12 months of their subject being dismissed is that right. Yes Sir that's correct okay and so during covid while there while there was the emergency in the early parts of co better early stages a covered certainly. We're was speedy trial by large told in the criminal courts. You yes it was a when the when the Supreme Court issued a per curiam there was usually some language at the end of the picture each time the issued a per curiam that mentioned that it could be told for speedy trial I think you we still ask people to go on the record and make sure and specify and do everything they could so there's a you know docket entry for for the future but the court gave us the mechanism to have that period of told okay so want to be very clear about that. That would be very clear about that I'd like to clarify something there in fact your office sent out a specific scheduling order I believe is a form to prosecutors around the state that they could use to make sure the speedy trial was told in these cases is that correct yes we we as we do with that with every procuring more the comes out we try to educate prosecutors make sure they're aware that and try to assist in drafting any pleading that that would help I mean again it would still at that point I mean we hope that we would use and we hope that the courts paid attention to that but that was that was our intention as we do with all communications from our Supreme Court right so if we have cases today they're being dismissed on speedy trial for instance when the time period happened during covid the that would be primarily because someone didn't get a scheduling order entered properly because that should have been excluded for speedy trial is that correct it's motor saying that that certainly could be possible now obviously it's gonna be up to the court in the pending on each individual case in terms of specific facts but I think that would be accurate general statement okay because. You guys had prepared this very specific form scheduling order for prosecutors to use of these cases didn't get messed get dismissed on speedy trial is that correct that would be accurate yes okay and so part of why we have the backlog today in those cases aren't being dismissed on speedy trial is because if the prosecutor got the scheduling or center properly then they would be dismissed on speedy trial is that right that's my understanding yes okay thank you. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you chairman. Mon. We're again I've talked about I serve on this committee for 10 years you and I've talked about this a lot and every year it seems to get worse. The public defender to we've always it seems like we've always had a shortage of public defenders and under the climate we're in right now just. Can you give me a. A view into the future let's say let's say a year from now if COVID stays the same crime rates either stay the same or excel right. Can you just tell me in your own opinion none of this is speculation what you're going to what are you gonna be telling us a year from now. My wife calls me the internal pessimist senator she's right. But a year from now because I've been director since 2013. And I've been telling this body about these problems because this way predates the pandemic. And with all due respect of me saying I told you so. I told you this problem was here because I don't see it getting any better. In light of some other information that we're not here to talk about today that I've received. I think it's gonna get worse are you saying that society in general is getting more violent Center scope will yes. Of it's a great question because we bring this back up under G. absolutely of. The on the discussion access to public defenders. Represent slight. Thank you Mr gentleman thank you for being here today and I get up every morning thanking god that of not in the criminal justice system many more in the last 2 years so hats off to you guys tried this but one thing I'm curious about is because a speedy trial minus class Y. felonies but see felonies above how many sweet plea deals have there been to try to get this the part of the dog cleaned up. I think that you would. So I don't I don't I don't know if I can officially identify or define sweet plea deal but I am I am I am certain representative that there were probably you know plea negotiations in situations that were drastically different than they would have been a few years ago but as far as a a number or percentage I really don't know I would have to ask all the prosecution for that but what I would say again in order to deal with the situation we prescribing for the last 45 minutes or so that they would have to be a substantial number of plea negotiations to move cases one issue that I do think we're faced with in a lot of situations if you're not trying cases and moving cases in the criminal justice system you're gonna have a lot less people likely to take those deals you know of cases are going to trial injuries are you know finding people guilty in certain particular jurisdiction you'll see more people take those plea deals but I think COVID is is probably added to the lack of people taking those deals that were offered whether there is you say sweet or not sweet I think Mr personally to that earlier it's a lot harder to get somebody to take a deal the main even is a really good offer because they you know they they see that the backlog in that may help them more than taking a plea if that makes sense thank you follow up Mr. Okay this is a question for sheriff's day and the Mr Whitmore even though Mr with more lives in the land of milk and honey there to a city but of those who have bonded out how many have re committed the offense before they've gone to trial. I don't have an exact number we've got probably a couple 0 FTAs right now feel to peers and then. In that. The Bahnsen we'll bring a man some of customer demand and revoke the bond or turning them we wind up keeping for 2004 hours let America's most that's nonviolent and they go back to your first question there's been a lot of good deals made we went to trial on when I can tell you one homicide we went to trial on and got 75 years so now the plea deals are or will tougher and they're they're taking a little. The more time but they're gonna present your back up but answer questions. I don't have percentage but because there's so many of them we have so many felt appears and like I said before we're not even arrest and some of more towards on the go back again later. Can Mr Sleipnir representative flight the firm overview from a statewide point of view. We've been suffering under this high ranking crime rate nationally for several years now it didn't show up recently we've also been suffering with our county jails have an add on hold for state prisoners in the state had built the prison since 2003 and so the backup that we've suffered with let people out during COVID day we weren't arresting misdemeanors we weren't where site about what you're talking about. Felonies that were non violent were being released and then of course ballot felons were trying to hang on as means we can't within all the warrants that had backed up for served in our jails got full in this next wave a covered here. And so we're full department of corrections is trying to your waist they have 1500 or so backed up now we got 2300. So the Department correction is trying to get those 2300 to go upstream state prisoners and we don't have room Davis served the warrants so. Your Pulaski County often see what they call catch and release will that dynamic seem to go on broader than just Pulaski County it happen a lot of places in Arkansas and this is in a state this fourth or fifth ranked nationally in violent crime and so this is much bigger than COVID we've got to address we need advocates champions to help us fix the criminal justice system because it's not functioning. So we're not tackling the way we should obviously we wouldn't stay at that high right. Thank you for the follow up Mr. Yes thank you of. Through law enforcement and prosecutors and public defenders where's Morelle stand in that with all all those that are involved. Locais look around you're getting a majority of our law enforcement officers that are they're sticking with that or or 10 years and above experience level they don't know anything else is where that thing would you get a lot of those guys going to private sector jobs. Because of what's going on nationally in this weather treated and the overwork minds in my job right now we'd like I said we got a to $15 an hour but right next door to McDonald's they can work. Cooking burgers for about the same. A big percentage of what you asked just a bit ago when they're out on bond they're still they're there stealing and using drugs. Theft and drugs run together so a lot of us are. So let us there's at least 3 of us I know or we're doing a different we're gonna come. In jail for a reason and they're addicts we're trying to attack it that way but they're gonna have more room so you would we put into a recovery program that has 90 days in jail. 120 days of a outpatient halfway house type thing it's a year long program and I'm 72 percent right now those guys not re offending however. We're so packed full I don't have room to put more in that program so it's a never ending cycle the more you try to do. The the less you can get done so that Morales low and it goes to pay I mean when you can leave Lonoke county at 5 years we just got to pay up but when you can leave Lonoke County at 5 you're marking go to say North Little Rock make 50000 a year and all I could pay it was 32. Why would you go. Same same criminals we sure criminals Lonoke county Pulaski County there's no different I mean you look at the records they just travel around so. Reserve I do think morale is is low also in the in the legal world I can add one thing I know that the last few job openings that we've had for if the prosecutors we've had less number of applicants than than we've had historically that's probably the case for about the last couple years and where that's directly attributed to the covered situation not certainly might be but I do know injured in jurisdictions where the backlog is still present I know the moralis is somewhat of an issue. Let's deal with no. But. The covert situation there's been. Lots of jobs unfilled of for various reasons one people not want to work. Because it it will be exposed to that there was money available of without working of and let me although I supported the. Income tax credit for law enforcement of the a also being a former quorum court member and a businessman of it it's up to all local government to fund. Of. The wages for a local law enforcement of the I agree with you but it was my job and our people were underpaid what was my job to convince our voters to do something about it. The so we need to be clear now if these German or have not able to hire somebody and there's somebody out there higher than it comes that comes back to us so but mark I also want to note that I appreciate your advocating for long term solutions. But if we if we can't. Fix the problem is right in front of us we'll see much hope for a long term solution. Represent flowers. Thank you. I just wanted to you know no we sort of started to talk about these issues outside of the scope of COVID and we. You know had a lot of back and forth about. Covid related or code policy and I'm but I heard you guys when you all of you have made the point that. A lot of these issues in terms of a backlog full jails were issues before code. And the reality is that when this first hit we were shut down. This whole state this whole country. And not knowing you know what was gonna happen people were dying there was no vaccine there were no therapies. And we didn't know what to do yet. And it seems to me that when you have that kind of hit to a system that is already heavily impacted. It's going to take some time to play catch up because what I'm hearing you say is that there is a backlog in the courts but the courts are operating their open when they can be unless they're close like what happened Jefferson County last week and if people are sick they're not coming to work and they shouldn't. I've also heard you say that you know. You don't have solutions and this is something that's happening all over the country. At the same time and and this is what I want to share. Even throughout COVID and sense. In my area we along several citizens along with myself and a few other folks have. Collected data. Gone to in all the wards and visited with stakeholders from every group you can think of including kids in the high schools. To assess what people expect how they feel about their neighborhoods what's happening what they think police ought to talk to police about what they think citizens ought to do. And we're we're sort of at a crossroads in the same way because we see. The data and violent crime in pine bluff is a problem that what people think about pine bluff most people are were surprised in our meetings and people will be surprised in this room that every other area of crime has gone down significantly outpacing RD population. Except for gun violence except for homicide and attempted murder and that kind of thing including rate you know property crimes car thefts you name it it's gone down significantly over the last 10 years except for gun violence. And. We had a detective detective Ryan Edwards I have to say his name he was awesome because he said things that most. No officer said our meetings and he talked about he's he grew up in pine bluff he stayed in pine bluff in the lives in. An area where people would make you would live in house for children and he's doing that on I don't know how he does it he actually just transition to work for C. R. and I'm saying all that to say we have awesome people working in our police department who are from pine bluff will come inside upon looking work as long as they can before they for the benefit of their families go someplace else because they're not paid adequately they don't have but that's not what he even complained about he talked about equipment. He talked about equipment and that's an area that we as a state. Can help I'm not saying that it's the responsibility of the state to provide equipment to local law enforcement but if that is the over arching problem across our state. And we know what. And these problems are over arching across the state it makes sense for us to look at that as a long term solution so I want to challenge my colleagues and I want to challenge all of you we have to come up with long term solutions because these problems preceded covid and they're going to succeed. After COVID has done whatever's going to. And with that of exemplary shall did have a bill this last session accredited Quitman fun it's not funded hello but it did pass. The subject here is update on core operations in response to COVID 19 I will be glad to meet with any of you and there's almost nothing I will put on the agenda especially something as important as this but it's not the agenda topic the of it sort one important Ottoman and worthy of discussion I'll be glad to put it on the next agenda feel with if you all would both like to have it on the the agenda of are there any other of. Questions on this topic. Seeing none of what I heard. You for saying. And correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to put words in your mouth. Of. The thank and maybe just maybe of Gregg said It and everybody else to. Of is that from the criminal side the felony side at least that. We are a date of. The worst place we've been hurting say that of. As far as cases being backed up even at a of. Of. But perhaps a of place of crisis and that I am I misstating the. And if so restated. I stand by my statement Mr. All right I agree we're in a the state. I grew does well just couldn't spouse's specify whether was the whole state or particular areas that had more of a crisis than others okay I just wanted to be sure that that's what we heard from L. because that's important as we represent the people looking at this and let me say. That. Going forward I know this committee will be glad to take a look. I know money has come from the federal government to do all kinds of things and I know that there are. Great difficulties and the system of but if it's buildings. Of. Because of it heard in other discussions specific. You know being able to have a place where you can have juries and spacing and all and all those type of things I think we need to look for that funding. Of I think we need to look for those buildings that's what we would do when our business of I think that we we need to move if we're doing great all the other cases good but. As You gentleman pointed out we may not have been doing great already but now we're in a crisis situation of the people of the state I thank don't want crime getting any worse and we need to move forward and we certainly don't want people waiting and we don't want people getting sweet deals. We we will if people are enduring. It anywhere from killing to severely injuring to slightly injuring our citizens we want to pay for it of of as they should so of with that we are through with elf and we will move to G. discussion on access to public defenders so we're going to Greg and mark here. It in your reserve you will stay thank you Bob. Of record. Let you start. Of. Not sure were started at this point Mr it's. And county kind of backtrack but I'll just tell you. Justin I'm just talking locally the local public defender's handling felony cases or handling. On average anywhere from 350 to 400 cases each. And if you look at the. What we call an AC guidelines adopted by the ABA. Your recommends handling 150 felonies at Max so were released to approaching 3 times that number. For the local public defender's office. An opinion poll where you are in the state. It can be a little bit better it can be worse but the problem that that I have. Is when you get to a district that has 345 or 6 counties. The public defender's traveling I don't have somebody in every county. So what is the time required to in cases and I I cannot answer that I'd I'd from personal experience I know. In thirteenth district pre law several years ago before all of this we are making 3 counties in one day. And so. The access is an issue. Mark do you have anything to add you pair for questions I do want to comment of first of all Mr thanks for brightness of we were contacted to come here talk about public defenders. And for the benefit of the committee we did an article last fall American Airlines magazine I don't know how well it's red but it did cover from the county perspective the public defenders. Back in 1997 those became state employees I remember that well I got a loss 187 of not just a public defender but their office personnel. And is this when you read this article we'll probably be astonished to find out that the state did not fulfill its obligation and 27 counties. Have been the. Spending county money when they should not have to state obligation to pay for public defenders in their personnel. Of we got to counties listed an amount of money Benton County 930 8000 Washington County 640 3000 Pulaski County 6 400 9000 Crittenden County 0 54 Crawford 148 goes on are all what that tells me that should tell you. I know Mr chairman wasn't justice the peaceful J. please don't pay for something that's not needed. And I sure don't do it when it's an obligation of the state. So what's happening since 1997 is that there is a need for public defenders and their employees and the Office expenses in the counties ended up for the bill and still do every year. Well that's wrong. But at least should tell you that there's a need because the county had to step in the. The second aspect the reason the sheriff here. Is that are beyond the monetary you've heard talk today about it is that when a when people are in the jail. And the public defender has a certain workloads and I would think yes General Assembly were tackling this you would try to figure out what would be a common case load or what's the national average like parole officers lakeside. Try to figure out how much case load there is no company public defender Jan 8 I don't think that's ever happened. So to what extent you need more public defenders that is your job to their state employees. And if you were to conduct that exercise I'm pretty sure I can get you the bulk of the sheriff here to tell you that it impacts the sheriff the jail's the when people sit into jail may sit in their. But that opportunity to meet with a public defender the case load or to go to trial resolver case it impacts the county jail not just the counties are paying for it but it does clogged up the jail because they've not yet been convicted not yet course the state's falls within IBM hopes anyway but we're stuck. With folks that should be. Managed by the justice system and they're stuck in our jails and I'm I could bring all the sheriff's upper about did bring the loan or county in fact this link County sheriff Robby right would be here today greatly appreciate this being on the agenda he had a personal issue and couldn't talk but we greatly appreciate this issue coming up because we didn't write this article just for academia we're trying to make the point that. Your candies are paying for state employees because the state is not painful. And we need the state to pursue this obligation of and deal with this because it is impacting us both correctly monetarily and as well in our jails not a contest if it's proper to have the share of common. I can speak very highly of our public defenders and one accounting great guys work hard but one of the most. Receive grievances and when I go back in a jail doing this just to walk through Hey can you get all the public defender I I I'll take a plea I'll take a plea well they're so busy going through a and my response them as yes they're coming. Amendment image or all they have is time to wait there said that there is taken by second a second but a lot of would would take please even if they are sweet that are to be going to prison but they can't because there's there's such a backlog of they're just trying to get there and I think we've beat that or the dead horse but it's if they have access some of you guys don't want to be in jail but they're stuck there they would technically they probably take whatever's offered they're just not able to get to that. To their representation and that that that's concerning as a share of a constitutional issue of I call my doctor I have direct access to our public defenders and a great guy Senate but they're telling will I'll get there when I came that's the problem we have I just don't think we have enough. The center for my address the father. Yes of and and and and no formal for the share sale but I feel it's fair to point out of that the public defenders are signed the loan County they're all part time as well and we do that. So we'll have enough bodies to cover the obligations meaning there 20 are we can ploys with the private law practice. And so. They're not 40 hour week people that are not doing anything so at their time is limited as well in time is a precious commodity for all of us. The. Let me to say first of all the this is on the agenda. Of because. I was watching the news. And I am told that this reporter. By a couple people to an exceptional job and I should say that because I am one who. Criticizes the lack of journalism these days of and I was watching the news of about the fact that a. The a judge in one county Polk County of. The. R. had only appointed I believe it was public defender 4 times in a year. Of and that. With that was appropriate appropriate seem to be an appropriate of from some of the cases that were shown of and that was not the only county like that and but there's 2 sides to that of as a quorum court member I would been rather pleased. Because. Like some other things in your budget it's like throwing money a whole. Of what are you getting out of it for the county. When I was on the quorum court. Excuse me for for mentioning partisan politics because I'm not mention it to be partisan but the most Liberal Democrat on a quorum court set to my left and every year before we pass the budget we listened he was also the most senior member of the quorum court we listen to the same soliloquy every year. Of. About how we the county paid to arrest. The criminals paid to jail the criminals and paid to defend the criminals and how much he hated to do that of. So. There's the side of it of why are we paying this money but the more important thing. And I thought that the reporter did a good job of bringing this out is there were people there saying. If I had adequate representation invite understood that I needed adequate representation I would have gone to jail I wouldn't of for this minor thing I wouldn't it wouldn't of had. I would have ended up loop being out of work for a year wouldn't of had this major interruption in my life except for and these were not quote unquote criminals of the and I would also say you know as a center who does a lot of constituent work gets a lot of calls when the major things I get calls about. Is folks. That can't get hold of the public defender for a long period of time not call Greg. Of and and I know it's not because they're bad people they're overworked of and so now the argument of who ought to pay for all I think there's that's open to debate of as to whether it's a local local issue state issuers is a combination and we can I didn't say that one on your side Marcus us as open to debate of the as to who are to be picking up the tab I think that you can make an argument why should be local I think you can make an argument what ought to be state of but I thought the Judiciary Committee ought to at least hear of. Of that there's a problem. Of and of Senator Stubblefield. The. This Is Your don't feel I cut you off while ago of. So this would be the appropriate time if you I apologize for cutting you off but if you would like to ask your questions now they don't. Okay what what what you're figured out we're gonna go to my co chair here representative Dalby of I would like to ask the Bar Association and the Supreme Court if they could give us an idea of the if if there has been a declining number of people graduating from law school in entering the profession because that also has an impact on the availability of individuals to be employed either as public defenders are prosecutors Sir what have you criminal defense lawyers I think that would be an interesting fact interesting to to here so if you can get that and get that to Alison I would appreciate it I think that that's another part of the mix and also wall Senator Stubblefield thinking of his questions I would draw all of your tension Committee members that we have we passed to. A bill it's now a bill this last. Just back in the spring as to folks that are eligible and I think the for a public defender and I think that also plays into it and that dovetails to without judges also issue how how judges look at this and there are some courts those of us who have been in practice there are some courts that. It's call like everybody wants a public defender raise your hand and here we go and then some or a on the far end of it in but I would like to draw the committee's attention to that we are trying to get a handle on who might be eligible thank you enough time Senator Stubblefield. Senator Sturch bill thank you Mr chairman of I think I remembered format. Somewhat of. Greg even even we have a tendency here to think that we can solve a problem by throwing money at it but even if you had another public defenders. You still what about the jail issue what about the problems with overcrowding in the jails. If you have enough public defenders to defend every person is in their. Is that gonna leave you at the the crowding in the jail problem. It will help well over will overcome it I don't know but just as an indication of what what I'm trying to do sure Felder in Washington County and I have a good relationship. I have saved a full time position. To put in his jail. Because I used to work up there and they have arraignments. Monday Wednesday and Friday. And they will. Robert F. 40 a day. Yeah of those 40. Having done it I think 5 of those people are minimal low hanging fruit. Okay. And so. If we can identify that low hanging fruit. And he's given me an office and everything is just COVID has delayed everything. That's a start. Instead of waiting 30 or 60 days as we ordinarily would to see that person we concealed within 2004 hours what they're gonna see all that works. But getting more people provides us more time. To go see more people because what happens is whenever I catch a case when we give you an example I kept case person myself that was in Marlton. This is 2333 weeks ago I live outside of Connolly 1 case was 1 case I went there last week for a court appearance I got there at 911 to 231 a trial the 1 thing it was an appearance. My client was in jail. Stop the judge's fault it's just the way things fail. And so. You can see the time consumption I didn't accomplish all anything other than making my parents and try to get a bond reduction. But if I had somebody else a consent. But by doing so I would have to pay somebody out of my budget because my local public defender had a conflict. Well let me say this I think we're only kidding ourselves if we thank one minutes that crime rates are going to decrease especially violent crimes what about crimes or a bowl of the nation I used not to just in Arkansas and we're only kidding ourselves we think that's going to get any better with with the amount of drugs in the other issues coming across the southern border I just talked to trooper that the day that pulled over a car that was full of illegal immigrants he could do nothing. It'll go. If we thank you if we think this is going to get better. It's not gonna get better. Without doing something that transformational. In our justice system because this is going to continue to get worse you can see more citizens arming themselves let's just be honest about it because they're afraid. Of what's happening in this country is for public safety. Senator about 5 months ago I had to send an email to my local offices on the number of capital murder cases that we were catching. If you have to defend its office the local office has conflict and but you have to be especially qualified in the capital markets. In some ways I have to form out to qualified private attorneys and there's only a handful in the state. I have private attorneys turning me down. Because they say ethically I cannot take any more capital cases I can handle the ones I've got. That's just an indication year I've said it for some mold but I have never seen. The homicides. Like I've seen the last 18 months as far as the numbers maybe it's just because I'm paying closer attention to all. But it's it's day Mr Crossman this. Well I'm in hospitals. About 3 weeks ago 2 weeks ago. Somebody pulls up with a car with 2 guys Senate shot in the head they leave them setting it emergency room they leave the car running the car was stolen. And I'm sitting in the hospital what to get admitted. Thank you this is happening right here me 2 people shot and they pulled the car up in the emergency room for. And lead to 2 guys sitting. That's all I have Mr. Sure of general of your senate you can answer. Shall I just wanna say the. The crime rates the minor crimes are not up. The violent crimes are and that's that's we're running into is. If these if like our public defenders like Senator Greg Eisen Lonoke County they are part time if they had more time to come see our guys you know we're we're even transported from prison back to jail so they can be seen because they can be same a lot of times I go on probation because a lot of these are crimes and we're also doing things differently accounting with the judges on board the processors on board we're doing recovery program but it does require 9220 days in jail studies training from peer recovery specialists that's what we're doing to. To do away with the the lower Hanford well that I can Senator. Arlette NO matter prison why before they serve their sentence the prison systems holding somewhere between 16 and 17000 state prisoners yeah I'll do what they call the mercies powers aren't every opportunity you can it's not a clue cards not a one timer you'll do 3 or 4 times a year and so you're letting folks at our criminal I'm not commit violent criminals that they get in a letter a B. C. D. E. how may times of incarcerated state penitentiary lots of them have K. A. L. E. N. on the keep going back but they're not serving there's no truth in sentencing so what happens is the state penitentiary system's not bigger than it was back in 2003 but our population our crime rate or and so because the state is not built enough prison pads of they back up their county jails we can't use our jails for the purpose which they were the people built the county people are holding pre detention pre pre adjudicated so we have to release Mr manners and have catch and release which does not attack the crime problem gets worse so there is couple solutions of and like you say they're gonna have to be dramatic because it's not working the organized look seriously about adding bright bands at the state penitentiary we can't have a moratorium on that that's all that's one solution among others and like we talked about. The purpose of going. A. Mr what more in other members in. Ms Clark back here I think you know I'm a big evidence specialty court system. And do you also see that this the. That that could that could help certainly couldn't truth but I've I've got to point this out of first of all not every county has a drug court most judicial districts there but the current judicial district has 4 counties that might be one county has about $3 so if you're rested Matt can you get to participate the drug court program if you're not by others so I'm not familiar with every county have an address certainly but but the expansion of the the expansion of specialty court's whether they're drug courts veteran court DWI courts juvenile court street we have all of those we're even looking at a representative fide is not in right now but we're even looking at domestic violence traditional to courts and so that expansion can also help with a it would help those population that helps those with those people those individuals are also in the court system served so looking at the system whether it's public defenders which is what we're on and the access to public defenders. It is a multi level approach would you not agree with me and we need to look at all of those levels because that can also take off maybe some of the pressure of a public defender's notice when the main components of the drug court mental health court all that is the public that's exactly right that's what I'm saying but it but but it can help alleviate some of the other coupons but I want to make my point though is that your lead the state is letting folks that are violent criminals out early because the prison system so full well those violent criminals are let out 14 months after serving your sentence not 5 or 15 years or out re offend left and right and so you got to move the can't just only work on the special court you've got to build more prisons I'm not arguing with that just saying that it is a multi level of reproach and that this committee's got a look at all the different components in that it's not just building a new jail are building a new prison I didn't mean to say that I do think we're talking about so I I I think that I don't want anybody to be misled that we as a committee have to look at every level and not just say well let's go build a new prison and the and that'll help and we keep a man longer I think we've got to look at it whether it's educational whether it's the smart communications that we're talking about and that's what's the beauty of of this particular agenda that Sir Clark is put together that we're looking at this is a multi level approach that's just my comment in my question wouldn't you agree thank you Mr resentment may I also address the question yes and what what I said the last of last session whenever. We maybe session for last when we establish 5 U. judgeships. If you don't staff with public defenders and prosecutors. And if the response is well they're not handling criminal cases maybe not this year but next year. The only say that because last week I received a call from a judge who says. I'm putting together establishment drug court cannot count on your office I said no you can't. We'll do whatever we can but I don't have a position to give you for that drug court. Because the the deputy public defender that district is full time already. And so the birdie craze for me is all right now you've got another court. In more obligations. And you're going to keep getting the same pay. And that's that's the dilemma for us and I'm sure prosecutors to because there's no reason for a public defender say yeah I'll take on some more courts in which more activities but keep paying me the same amount of money. Senator Clark. The young. Before. I go to. Back to Senator Stubblefield. More. Well in my own rule ask you questions of. You can talk about prison beds do you or is it is a go to the gym decide to build prisoner useful more prison beds. I understand that they may expand or may build a new prison what was other states that do what now what was of state aren't bad be your proctor we're just the share standpoint there's died advocates strongly for president Senator Stubblefield in the representative goes way Senator Stubblefield of. Of. When I ask your question before you ask yours of. You of you will introduce an interim study on of public defenders. You're recognized this is I just wanna make a short comment. We are we in this country are up against a of $300000000000 a year illegal drug industry 3 built 3 and 50000000000. And a $250000000000 human smuggling operation there is no way that of Arkansas dedicated all of its funds the fighting these these 2 issues what we want we're gonna have to have some help. From somewhere other than the state coffers because you cannot take on a $600000000000 illegal drug and human trafficking issue with the resources we have in this state. Including the bill is good a law enforcement is we've got you cannot do it and never gain any traction it will continually get worse because that is a lot of money. The driving this. That's all I have Mr. Could I add to that. Yep quickly on we're we're teaming up with department homeland security because we're right off interstate 40 we do interdiction and we're teaming with the federal agencies to try to combat that but you're exactly right it's gonna take more teams can take some federal oversight once the border was opened back up this past year we we had math almost nonexistent the refined some Fenton all but once the border. Flooded again we have a we've been overrun. Representa Gazaway. Thank you Mr chairman. I guess my question is for Mr perish and you may have mentioned this and if you did I apologize that I missed it but I read an article several years ago about the funding of the public defenders I am very states around the country I think one of them was Missouri and there would have been lawsuits and in federal court over inadequate funding for public defender's offices. Even the number of cases that each public defender has. Can you describe where we are in Arkansas on if that's if there's concern about that you here in Arkansas and. Do you know what can we do to help you because you know I haven't worked in the criminal courts for years I know how vital public defenders are to to this process working you know if you have an good prosecutors in a lot of prosecutors is important but you got to have public defenders have the time to be with their clients meet with the prosecutors work out the cases of plead the cases take cases to trial make sure that there's due process all of those things so can you give us some idea about where we stand if if we're. In a federal lawsuit and if we've already been sued for in danger of one kind of where things are. Thank you representative Gazaway I am of like yourself I'm a former deputy prosecutor that. Of one to the other side and depending upon who you ask for this the good side of the fence so I see it from both sides and I try to look at it that way I'm presently right now logged in a lawsuit over pay disparity. The Federal Election that the AG's representing the solemn. And I'd rather not go into great detail but something happened last week. That what I will tell you is I expect in the coming days public defenders in certain areas will say I'm not taking any more appointments because you're making me violate my ethical owes. An oath which I took and you took as an attorney and then you took as a representative which there really close and it's supporting the constitution. And I I understand the people that we are charged with representing. Yes I've had many clients up I would go to dinner with. However. I recognize my obligation under miles. That's what we're doing. You're recognized in the person's sixth amendment right to counsel. That's all we're doing doesn't mean we're getting them off of the charge as many thing we're complying with the court federal court mandates. And by providing public defenders in the assistance they need we're helping other state employees I would hate to think. The my part time public defenders at 20 hours a week started keeping their early time. What the state would be facing. Okay as an attorney I think you know what I'm talking about. Yes. Yes okay here. I'm on. Well yes something happens. There you. And so I appreciate that but again I I've got a couple of very specific questions and I'd like you to address those number one I I was aware that there is a pending lawsuit about pay disparity I'm not I'm not as concerned about pay disparity there may be a pending lawsuit over that. And I can just tell you from my perspective again having worked in the criminal courts as prosecutor for almost a decade I do see the jobs is being a little bit different you know the prosecutor has to prepare the table every time that there's court and you guys have specific clients that you represent it's not all the docket prosecutors got the whole docket so I you know I see a distinction there and I am not going to argue with you about it but I do think that there's distinctions I'm not concerned about disparity what I am concerned about is overall funding. Because if you guys need more resources and I think that you do number one I want you to tell us what you think that you need. In terms of funding for more positions or whatever it may be. And then I guess a you know the second point is and not about a question of disparity but do you see there being the potential for a lawsuit over funding in general just a lack of funding to ensure that that you've got the staff that you need to meet the. Cases that you have the constitutional obligations that public defenders have to your first point of. And. You know you're not to discuss the pay parity at some other time but obligations again having been on both sides are not just limited to responding to what the state says appearing we have other obligations. And and I have many good friends for the prosecutors of no movement man for 30 plus years. And I will never say they have too much but I will say this. They can cherry pick me anytime they want to. Because of what I pay and what they can put. And I don't blame when they do. Because you can pick the the upcoming promising attorneys. And so our dilemmas this we're getting brand new lawyers who just passed the bar. By statute all they can handle or C. and D. felonies very low grade felonies they cannot handle complicated case. We train them. At any time but the prosecutor wants to hire them away they came in a loss to in the last 45 days prosecutors because I can't compete with the seller. And. That's an issue for me the House force lawsuits I would expect one a long time ago. But while I was working on the book that I gave you and I'm thinking about these things. And I've even approach some other mines wondering is there an equal protection and due process argument in their constitutional argument from the standpoint that the state is choosing to pay their public defenders disproportionately less knowing that they are. And this is just an allegation I'm just one of this allegation exist. As a means of assuring the those who cannot afford an attorney. Get the less qualified. I don't know I don't know. If that's a legal a good legal argument or not. But you gotta start wondering at some point because you've got the numbers of and that you see the disparity. And. What I would point out is. We just also for court we have to go to jails we have client interviews we have to do our own investigations repairing city courts D. N. courts the prosecutors don't have to not be grudging them. But if you ask you not solution. 30. I know it's not popular. But parity. Bring us up to the numbers of the prosecutors have in the seller's. That's my solution. Just one more follow up Mr. Yes thank you. And so I up again I appreciate your your remarks. Yeah you know again I have to I'm good I'm going to disagree I think that the prosecutor does lots of things that are that are outside of just going to court again the prosecutor has the entire docket they have to prepare the table every time there's court they don't just have certain clients they have to make the law enforcement officers and make decisions about whether or not to even file a charge they so they have to make all those charging decisions and that's on cases that may not ever be filed with the public never even knows about and so that is the prosecutor has a big role as opposed to just specific individual clients and so again you know in that regard I don't see the positions as being exactly the same I understand I think why there's a distinction that. I heard your. Remarked that in order to cure the situation your opinion there needs to be parity. Assuming that there was parity how much money would that be to the state in order to. Allow there to be parity in pay. I can't answer that what I can tell you right now is of. As of November 1 with figures a. Misprint ma'am provided and I provided. Because the black legislative caucus ask for these numbers last year and we update our more updated November 1 of this year. Or she's been of last year what I can tell you is this. Including myself the public defender commission. AS 179 total positions. The number of those we do job share which is the part time. In contrast. If my figures are wrong L. apologized Mr McMahon but I don't believe we are. The prosecutors have including the elected 193 full time positions. Plus an additional 75 part time positions. For a total of 268. Positions persons are 179. Difference in salaries of those positions. Is $10000000. And. I hear about it from my people every day because of transparency. And I'll just point out. The prosecutors fall under the altar we fall under class and call. You can see from those numbers there are part time deputy prosecutor's part time making more money than I can hire in a full time position under GST. There is one part time. Deputy making 88000 a year. I can't touch that I can't get close with a part timer. I think the most any part time person I have making money is about 55000 and he has been with the agency for number of years in this capital murder certified. I cannot compete the never will be able to. Mr I have one more follow up. Yes thank you. So it. I mean I hear what you're saying and I see the totals that you have here and again I didn't intend for this to be a back and forth the spirit I really want to help the public defender's because I think you guys do a great job I will say you know one of the remarks you made about whether or not the public defenders were maybe a lesser quality lawyer I've worked with some excellent public defenders over the years who were top notch lawyers some of them are still public defender's day some of them are not some of a very highly sought after criminal defense lawyers in private practice and so I think the idea that the public defender is a lower quality lawyer just having worked with them and having known and and having known many of them over the years. I don't necessarily buy into that but with that being said when you quote these numbers and you know the $10000000 disparity your including in that number the prosecuting the elected prosecuting attorney salary is that correct. That is correct I'm including mine and those numbers as well as well as distribute man's from top to bottom okay so. You know it I guess one thing that I would point out I think when we look at these numbers that we're talking about parity with the elected prosecuting attorney is a it's a constitutional office that the. Is an elected position I mean it's not this is in the State payroll the type of position that the legislature create statutorily would you agree with that I would agree with that okay and. How many elected prosecutors are either 28 okay so thank roughly and Bob may correct me on this I think about for file level maybe part time right so it 28 elected prosecutors 870 $1000 a year granted the part time the the elected part times are a little bit lower than the 0 71145 a police ordered is right so at a minimum you're looking at 28 positions at 145 or 171 and we're talking to several $0 that if you take the elected salaries out of that calculation would reduce that disparity by is that accurate that's correct this. That if I may represent Gazaway what I would also point out the even other constitutional officers. I mean personally I'm trying cases them and have tried cases myself against a person I mean they handle a caseload as well sure absolutely thank you thank you Mr I appreciate the courtesy. The well as we close this out of. The shortage of public defenders I think speaks for itself. Of this is subject we may want to bring back up anytime that we use the word parity of. I become somewhat skeptical of. The. Proving that any 2 jobs are equal of. It is difficult and I think it's a market of. Decision. When you know assuming that they're assuming that there are enough people out there to work. And when you I know as an employer. The I know I'm paying too little. When there are plenty of people to work. And nobody's applying her nobody's taking the job that's a real close to me also if the non enough quality people taking the job of but what someone wants to make the argument of parity between a truck driver a salesman or truck driver and a secretary or the salesman's. They're it the only thing I would say is become a salesman. We have because the market decides of. Where each one of those ought to be and I would also question why you all are having this debate and as we go forward on this debate. If we because I will people have adequate representation especially for. That being said. Representative Dalby who. Is a judge. Pointed out that there are some judges who say. Who was a public defender. If you got Rosenzweig. As a public defender. I'll. Because one the things that you know. One things I don't mind paying for it is a nice meal. What's of us fall in that category one of the things that most of us don't like paying is attorney speaks. For anything. So so you I'm up before the court and the sheriff brought me in whether you know especially if I'm innocent I don't pay for attorney of you know what might be returning why didn't do anything and the of I'm being fined for a system for being innocent. So is so is or not approve then I think the state in the county. Also and picking up a much bigger bill. That's something for you to think about if the attorneys are too good. Of and so that becomes the you know we want to attorneys to be good. But if they're too good. What do I want to hire somebody. Of so just just something to think about as well as were moving Ford in the debate of but I do think of it's a subject that that we're going to want to look into that being said age of the business. I would say that from this meeting today the subjects have been brought up that we might want to look into at a future meeting if sole you may want to contact me of the representative Dalby. Or Alison if you are consumer get with us of. Prisons jails overcrowding. Of. That would be one subject of expanding specially courts represented Dalby brought that up and I think that's a very interesting expressly when I heard that a district can help up for County district could have what according one county you don't have access to it from the other 3 counties. That would be something I think could be fixed. The because I gotta tell you Garland County was one the first have a drug court and I can't tell you how much good that's done and have people. Help people free and for and produce in in society rather in jail makes all kinds of sense of. Funding of of. A local law enforcement equipment by the state was another subject that was brought up of and possible bigs up. But so big that of Mr parish insult order to all public defenders that may come up in the next week or 2 those are all subjects that we might want to meet about in the near future it's and you may have something else so don't hesitate to get with the chairs of or with Allison who will get with the chairs of if you want to meet on something don't. A. L. C. yes. Okay we'll let me see that on this R. B. R. but if if there is something be prepared to also let us know. People who should be witnesses except for the B. be prepared to do some of the legwork of also a LC terrible penal and correctional institution subcommittee that's the presence of committee is going to be Wednesday January twenty six two thousand twenty two that would be this year that's the year 2002. 2. Again at 2 you don't have to you and mac B. you do not have to be on the committee the to attend that if you're on Judiciary you may find that Committee not only interesting but helpful thank you. Of so if anyway if you have something this is your committee don't don't hesitate to bring up for anything else. Hearing nothing thank you for being here all the witnesses that testified today thank you we are a joke.