ALC-Executive Subcommittee

Laurie free no general counsel Arkansas department of education. Currently servicing the assistant commissioner for. Okay thank you representative Wardlaw and members thank you so much for hearing our request for emergency rules this morning. The emergency is that the state of Arkansas is suffering from a severe teacher shortage and the emergency rules would increase equitable access. 2 expected teachers to Arkansas students by enabling qualified applicants who are enrolled in alternative educator preparation programs but who have not yet passed the state mandated assessment to obtain a provisional teaching license for up to 3 years. The in lieu of having passed the state assessment however the applicant would have to either hold a bachelor's degree in the content area in which the applicant seeks to teach would have earned 18 hours of college credit. In the content area in which the applicant seeks to teach or have documented successful relevant work experience in the content area in which the applicant seeks to teach. If there are any questions we have the educator effectiveness and licensure team from the Department here and we'll be happy to answer any questions. We do have questions Senator Hickey you're recognized yes ma'am over to your left what you said give give me the numbers he said there's a severe teacher shortage tell me where those are at and what those numbers are across state. Senator Hickey M. I. I don't have a definitive numbers and we don't have local data and collected in an aggregate form and we have numbers we can get numbers as emergency teaching permits teachers that are teaching on waivers the most severe and areas are going to be in Southeast Arkansas where in some districts you have well over 2 well more than 25 percent of teachers who are teaching on a waiver from licensure know what I ask your coming before us in your comment man ma'am is there there's as severe teacher shortage across state and we all hear that read recall the time and maybe that so would you come before us and you don't have the numbers why have you not reached out. Do it do it all online however you do it and say ABC school district how many teachers how many teachers are you short and what subjects are those in so that we'll know we'll know what the real numbers are before we go down this path. Because I will tell you I've had a. You know I've had a little bit of experience in this size on the school board for a few years and there's a reason I'm not don't get on education because I know how hard it is and I understand what you're up against for more ways than one. But what I know in what I see is that you had facilitated you have facilitators right now you have career coaches you have all of these top people that. Are not teaching. And most of the time those people are veteran type teachers who no longer want to be in the classroom and I understand that especially in today's society with ways what things are. But is it time to totally revamp this pull back to the basics because I don't see our scores increasing we set out here and act like our scores are increasing. But we don't see it so is it time that we bring those teachers back into the classroom instead of. Trying to go the other way. Because it for an and I truly do believe. As I've said multiple times that in this next session that that we're going to increase increase teacher salaries and I can say that by myself that's up to this body. And I think that we're gonna try to do it in a significant fashion but to do that I think we're going to look at the whole package from a macro standpoint and and to try to pull that back so have you all look at pulling those individuals that are that are out there doing those that other type of work which I'm not for sure is not a bunch of busy work just to be blunt bunch of paperwork that probably needs to be eliminated that nobody's looking at so what are we doing on that standpoint if we look at it from that fashion sense Senator Hickey not to be I really want to hear these answers we're having technical difficulties someone call for a 5 minute recess so that we can reset the computer in the room I'm truly truly sorry I know you're in the middle of this but we have to do that at this moment. Senate recess for 5 minutes. If you would hit your button. And we're going to get started where we left off okay for interruption all right do I need to repeat all that or do you want me just to to begin with what have we looked at moving those with the facilitators career coaches up into the positions we need and I'm really interested in the numbers we set out at the end of the table and we say this but you all have not gathered in numbers so I'm very interested in this part. Yes Sir so we will we will get those numbers for you so we'll we'll work on that today and we will try to to have something ready by next week on numbers so that we have a true picture where we're starting school and where we have those gaps and what you said is absolutely true we have started looking at district numbers of and that the numbers of employees that they have and we want to go back in and that's that to the number of classroom teachers that they have and that they need versus a number of other employees I think it's going to be important for and all of this to understand going into the next session what what the work force looks like what type said and positions are being filled in schools and is that creating more the problem or is it exacerbating the problem of shortages where we know that and there are and cases again where there are large numbers of teachers teaching who are not licensed so wait we definitely need to to address all of that I think in the opening comments maybe something we should have also. Pointed out was that a few months ago or state board asked us to do some analysis for how the and licensure tests are playing into and lower numbers of teachers entering the work force we know that we've had increases of turnover over this past year especially with younger teachers so we have fewer people going into programs we have fewer people coming out having successfully passed all of the licensure exams so this rule change is really to address that and part of the reason why to do it now is because we do have several areas where they are in need of and teachers. Well I appreciate your comments in the. And I'm listen to the rest if there's any other conversation on this but I'm I'm a T. I really struggle that you come in here and just throw out that we've got the shortage and we don't know what those are and then we sit at the end of the table and say say well we think that that may be causing a larger problem or not for sure we're looking at it and then we're going that way when possibly we could go back and just have those districts to pull those. Seasoned educators out of those positions because I know for the most part those are the individuals that are sitting there there in those positions. I don't know that anybody in here I mean if we talk about these test scores again we'll go back to that. If if they're not if they're not increasing maybe those individuals that are maybe they're the ones that need to be going back into the classroom instead of the other way so Mr out just to listen to so the rest of the comments. Thank you senator one thing before I go to the next question members we do have a large attendance here today for members are very interesting in this issue there far I'm going to recognize committee members first and then I will recognize the other members in the room for questioning I do know we have the chair of house it in here so just wanna make sure that we're inclusive to everybody this is a sensitive subject Senator Irvin you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair I think and it's important for us to kind of late lay a picture of what the current situation is and you can't really do that without good strong data and facts and so what we have discussed before is you may have this teacher shortage but how was it created has there been an in depth analysis as to why it is that way and certain schools on the answer that really is no because as Senator Hickey was stated and some of the concern is you have a lot of schools that are choosing to pull those season certified teachers out of the classroom and moving them into different positions so and and most of the time those different positions are better for better paid their higher pay than what they're getting in the classroom well that's exasperating the problem and so you know we need to go wait a minute what is our objective here is our objective here to teach students to read as our objective here to teach students how to do math is our objective here to teach history and American civics and science and is that the objective or is the objective just to employ more people at a higher rate of pay. That is the problem in my opinion because you have people that are moving from pence principal teacher position into principal positions and 2 assistant positions into a Ellie coordinator positions into curriculum director positions into all these different position and you're expanding that administrative level at the schools and what suffering or the teacher level at the schools we should be about the teacher level at the schools and so the answer is not you know come to us and try to you know. Basically creating give us a solution that's really not a solution that really understands the whole entire picture and I think that's the concern for a lot of us because we are very connected to our schools in our school district I mean I'm on the phone this morning for an hour point 5 talking with former senator Randy Lafferty senator rand the Lafferty was one of the E. key instrumental senators that created the special needs catastrophic funds why because of schools in places like deer mount Judy. And Jasper. And some of the other schools. So you in in very very rule parts of the state of Arkansas so you we have to understand this picture and we have to understand it for those levels of school districts as well as time blood or Lake Village or Helena West Helena or Springdale or Rogers or cabinet or whomever we have to understand that in its entirety because we're policy makers and that's our job and our job is to bring that level of understanding so that we have a safe. Process that takes into consideration a very small isolated school as well as a very large school that's very equipped in an area that might be a lot easier to hire people so I think when you frame and you come before us and you frame it as you know kind of a a political talking points. That gives me nothing to work with. Because because I'm tired of just hearing a rhetoric that's not based in fact an analysis. And that's where we have to be we have to be in a place where there is robust analysis where there are actual numbers where there's actual data where there are facts that you can prove to us why things are necessary. And so I think that's the frustration in the point where you know we we kind of are just throwing out this solution and this solution or this solution without it being completely fully analyzed and understood so you know I think there are a lot of there's a lot of work to do between now and January and we've got to all get on the same page as to what the solutions are and what they look like and what we're trying to achieve here because to me we got to get back to the basics of making sure our students are proficient in reading are proficient in math and we're not just out here creating more of a level of bureaucracy that gets us further away from the main goal of success for that student so so so so I need you to be very specific about this emergency rule and about the policy behind why it's necessary to change this licensure requirements. And not you know. I just I wanted and now is this about why this is necessary. And senator I can give you a copy of the preliminary report that and Dr Josh McGee with that office for education policy and provided last Thursday at the state board meeting is part of fulfilling their requests for us to do an analysis of how and teacher licensure policies are impacting our work force and set in and we have planned to go over that with that and Education Committee at the next meeting number yes but we can definitely and make sure you all have a copy and and what it has pointed out that I think is very important for us to to to go ahead and proceed since we're at the beginning of the school year and we have an opportunity for and it to be able to have and teachers with a provisional license enter the classroom and it's that we're we're finding out that licensure exam scores are only partially predictive the classroom effectiveness right now though we have a rule that requires a person who is enrolling in a and nontraditional licensure program to have to have passed the test before they can get a license so they get stuck in that program or they can only go work in an area that has a waiver from teacher licensure this would go ahead and give them that license so that they could be there with kids and so that they could be really it would be like and giving them an opportunity for a performance based assessment of their content knowledge over time what I can be and be be working and working toward that standard license in the future how many how many are we talking right now so as of last week we know of at least 113 who are on an emergency permit or in our and state and our pet program the southeast and well you University of Arkansas Monticello said they had about 70. That they knew thank you would have and then in our southeast schools that have teachers teaching on waivers a majority of those and candidates would now be able to have a provisional license and the difference too is that and and and at 1240 waiver you may or may not be and paid on the teacher salary schedule you know it may be a long term sub pay so this would elevate them and I hope it would. Promote long term retention you are correct that at about we've got to make sure that we have teachers in front of students so that we can improve in reading and math and those basic things and I think that we are committed to helping to look at what it what is going on in schools because we can't just go tell it district you can't hire somebody for that position we don't have the policy we don't have that the authority to it to necessarily dictate who they hire and who they don't. So last question thank you for the latter to Mister chair but you have people that are they have worked as as college professors. Bank cannot teach as a certified teacher. We have a pathway now for them in order to be able to get a license that legislation was passed recently and we have actually 13 who would now taking advantage of that opportunity that doesn't sound like many that we want to use those 13 to elevate that opportunity. Because we know that's that that's a great source of talent in communities that could serve a dual purpose so with this emergency rule or this licensure affect that at all. It would not an impact the highly qualified professor at route that we want to make sure that that we have more more people who know and understand that opportunity not last question I'll move on but may have another one later but tell me the tell me do you have a roundabout idea about the level of experience these hundred 13 individuals have. For education they would all either have and at least a bachelor's degree in the content area that they're wanting to teach in or they have the equivalent of a minor and in that area so they have background knowledge the content knowledge in that area where they're seeking to teach or they've been doing that work maybe for and so so in the case of that and teachers in Southeast Arkansas I made in teaching under a waiver for the past year to and now they would qualify if they're in a program to go in and get the provisional license even if they do not pass the test okay so that's just mainly the tax that's the issue the test is the issue because in our rules we have required that in the past we want to change that we want to open up some additional options so that's why we have to come before you is to get the rules changed and we are going through that the regular promulgation process also but that takes a long longer time and with school starting and that that's the need for us to to be able to committee today okay thank you Mr chair. So Tuesday we had a zoom call. And the things you just told Senator Irvin we're kind of contradictory to what we learned Tuesday you told us Tuesday that the law required that assessment into that law needed changing in this next session you guys would say that on the record. But when you read the rule and I've done it multiple times I've got multiple highlighted pages here on 1 - 2.14 you have struck in the language and have passed and appropriate state mandated assessments if you go over to 4 - 5.01.3.1 are you really good this for long. He says if the applicant did not receive a passing school or an official score so there you're saying that they would have to have a school or to know what content they could teach and it says then they would have to have 18 hours a credit a degree in the content area or a document a successful relevant work experience in that area. So which way is it do they have to get tested not affect as in is the law required to test or is it your rule because I've heard 3 different things in a week so I want to know which one is right so so the law does require for a standard license that a candidate has to pass the content area assessment. The in the rules this and for specifically around a provisional license for candidates in these programs that and law allows just stage learned requires that give me the code. Okay so K. 615 1004 and requires and that and candidates demonstrate competency in subject matter content or add on identified as testaments and 617402 also discusses a subject matter content assessment and and so a candidate will. By law have to pass an assessment order to get a standard license. Our rules are what are requiring that provisional license and to have to pass the the assessment so we can if we have the rule change for provisional license a candidate would not have to take that would not have to pass the test now I think the part that you're referring to and 3 public comment this might need to be changed is what do they have to take it at all and part of the reason we're not getting public comment because if we administer this rule today goes into effect so yes you're saying public comment on your person on your permanent rules what we want to do is we're going to pass a rule we want to be right okay so if you're saying today that something needs to come out of this embargoed bring it to us with that out of it don't bring it to me with it in there so I don't I don't know that my opinion along with St needs to come out the benefit of taking the test is that if the candidate is entering a prep program they not pass the test and can get a provisional license or get if the if they pass the test and I've met that requirement so that pressure is off of the on if they don't pass the test they know where their areas are that they need to be working on an as they progress through their program they're able to identify those areas so that at some point they're going to be able to earn that the standard license now in the meantime if there are legislative changes so that we have more options for candidates then that would be an ideal situation down the road where maybe in the future they're not having to pass a single assessment in order to get their standard license in the meantime legislative changes is not what we agreed to choose to. We agree to choose that you guys would be on the record and say the legislative changes need to happen to make sure that we help the teacher shortage problem going forward. So which way is again are you as the department for legislative changes to remove this assessment content or not. We are we are in favor yes of legislative changes. I'll come back later represent Dotson your next. Thank you Mr chair. Just sit here listen this discussion I have a question this is these orders that allow for the provisional license would be adding to these rules are repeated throughout the throughout this section of the the rules particularly on item number 3 of that says one of the orders document and successful relevant work experience in the content area in which applicants seeks to teach so. So if they have document what what does documented successful relevant work experience means does that mean they've been teaching another state here under a provisional license currently what does that mean it can mean any of those scenarios that you described and maybe teaching and that private school or and in in in an area where they don't have they don't come with the standard license so that work experience in the cases again in Southeast Arkansas teachers that I've been teaching under a waiver and they've had that and that work experience and if if that's documented in provided to us then that's part of what's looked at for them to get their license so with that in mind if someone has been teaching in that sort of an area even under provisional license could they apply for a another provisional license because looking at this it looks like this is only good for 3 years I believe the provisional license I think I saw that someone the typically emergency rule and I believe this I think provisional licenses it is and a 3 year and is what it what the rules have always been so can somebody renew that if they still can't pass the standardized assessment. They're good teacher or they just get fired after 3 years because they they couldn't pass the test after 3 years even though they have documented experience if we change this would this allow them to renew that provisional. So there are cases where depending on what criteria is still lacking that an additional year has been added to a provisional license and that that is not necessarily the case all the time what M. and this goes back to what representative Wardlaw was talking about what we have said is that because the question was what happens after 3 years what we would hope is that there are legislative changes so that we do not have a singular requirement for a candidate that always goes back to a standardized assessments so in the future we would hope there would be options maybe for performance based and and a performance based criteria are or is and I don't know what I'm trying to say there but where the work experience that they've done over time and completing their program would count towards them showing their content mastery and and being able to get a standard license also I'm. I'm just sitting here thinking kind of through this process and and the page before the emergency clause on this particular rule change it It relates to application fees a 5 year Fite first time 5 year standard educational licenses is $75 if I'm reading that correctly but the provisional license I guess is there does it there isn't a license fee or application fee there is not an application so why would anybody. Take the test or. Apply for first time license or if you can get 3 years worth of a provisional license to start off with. So candidates that go through a traditional program and date meet the criteria for standard license once they've completed their program and pass their assessment so they're applying for that standard license at the very beginning. Part of what we tried to do in writing this was to ride in a limited way so that it was applying to that the candidates that were required to and to pass a test before they had actually completed their program so so this is applying to candidates that are in an alternative preparation or we Scala nontraditional preparation program is are paid not as high as a standard license no it would it it would function as a standard license so they should be paid according to that the same salary schedule the provisional license though and that the fact that there's not an application fee Mr Singh may be able to get more information about that. Currently servicing the assistant commissioner when we're looking at the S. and we're looking at provisional license they would have not held a provisional license had they not already passed the exam so we should not see that to become an issue but when we're looking at and people that are coming in from reciprocity and they may need to pick up professional development that's why we don't charge a fee on those provisional license because I'm I get in a program I want to I'm a career changer and I want to teach and so I may go through that nontraditional program. But you have to have that provisional license because not all districts have the at 1240 waivers for a waiver of licensure so you must meet and have a provisional license and so this is that catch 22 where they need this provision in order to have that provisional license that a district that does not have those waivers can hire this person. If I can ask you one thing as you're going through the permit rule probably promulgation if this happens to pass now that you look at what happens after that 3 year period and make that clear in the rule of what what the the next steps are for anyone that's in this program so they don't they have some confidence that they're not going to just be terminated the end of 3 years if there provisional license expires. Maybe this is the chance to say this that I have put monies aside for what we call licensure ready assessment where we are doing that too during and there are programs and software is out there to 42 during and studied at com that we are making sure people have available and so that's why it's so important if they take the assessment and maybe they are where they should be at that time it's almost like making it at a planned around their needs and one final thing. So. I don't know if this is going to pass through today or or if we're gonna take it back for weaker or whatever but the Emergency Clause on this goes into effect and you start having districts and teachers get provisional license and they're all hired but emergency rule only last for I think it's 120 days so at the end of that. Time period if a permanent rule hasn't been promulgated in is in effect what happens to those provisional teachers the district's go out higher. If the role goes back to our they grandfathered in in some way under this emergency clause or we just have teachers in classrooms and all the sudden can't teach anymore. There is there would not be grandfathering in we would if we just lose them. And 120 days Mister Senator you have we would we would not be able to continue on with them having a provisional license until they had passed an assessment. If we didn't have a permanent rule in place with this change at that's kind of my concern thank you. Senator Hickey you're recognized it yes ma'am I'm over here to your left again at I have a house I still have I have a huge issue with what we're saying here maybe I will be too basic but okay so first of all we come in here again I will say this again we don't have the numbers so that's a problem and then we sit in here and and I want us to hear what we're saying we got an individual who can pass a test that we're gonna put into the classroom and we. Require students to pass a test before they they can continue own. The whole thought process of this is just to I don't I don't like the way it is and I understand that you're telling me. You know that you've got this teacher shortage. But again I think some others have alluded to this we need to go back in and do an analysis we have individuals within the schools in these other positions. That are seasoned individuals that can come back and and do it they've passed that they've been in the classroom and that's another issue and I know I'm because you all understand this sometimes especially in today's society it takes an individual who's capable with the in those classrooms to be able to manage those students. So not only is there a it issues may you from the the educational side it's also the side that you just put somebody in a classroom that may not have any experience to manage of students or are not had that training so I just it's kind of hard for me to to sit here and listen to this stuff about we're gonna allow somebody to to go into this profession. I will say this the wrong way but it's almost like you were saying well we're just going to dumb it down because rule that people in there that can not pass the test. I know that's a statement Mister chair and I apologize it but is just to sum up the like I to say. And and senator at I understand the concern that it is happening now it is happening now and and and and I mean I don't have the mat big enough for you to see about that led to sit down with you and share with you so and 8 I understand today we're putting you all in a difficult position and if we need to pull this income back at a later time we can and update the a committee with the and the data that might help you feel more confident but I think that I think there a lot of an answer questions that we definitely want to be able to help you and have the information you need because we want you to feel confident in what we're asking for. In the end again I'm I'm sorry from sound a little rough over here is just this is bothersome to me. Because until you prove to me that that we don't have individuals in the schools they're doing other jobs that. And it may it may be things that have been required with reports or whatever it may be that I don't know who looks at or who doesn't look at but if we've got veteran individuals in positions that are not teaching I think we need to look at bringing those into those positions instead of it's that of just trying to circumvent a requirement for a test of a of somebody is going to be becoming in that profession. So I you know it's not to me about what you're trying to do it's also knowing. It's also knowing what we have within those schools that could could go into those places thank you. Senator you're recognized yes I know thank you doctor 5 for for and making that suggestion I think that's probably good recommendation to couples is my concerns the from take away that you may want to look into a little bit I'm concerned that if we can do this or cannot do this according to the way the law is written so. It's one thing to change a rule but it's another thing to obviously we can't change the law unless we're in session so. That's a concern for mine and then further more in response representative Dotson's questions. I think. That that became problematic with the process that we're trying to undertake here if the final rule is an adopted so that needs to be really thought through I think a little bit and then are these people able to go into the classroom or stay in the classroom and is it just a matter of how they're considered in how they're paid if that's what we're trying to solve here that makes sense I just those are some things like as take aways that we might need to just have a little more. Question answer on. Thank you. Representative Alan you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman thank you all for being here today I like for you all to expound a little bit on the how a problem qualified professional act. So and the. That the process is in place for and. For people who and professors who are at institutions of higher end and to submit their application for a standard license and I think it was the number was 13 who have done that we and actually have a commissioner memo that went out last week announcing that opportunity just reminding people that all of that has been put into place okay. The did someone mention that the the professors would have to be tested to pass a test or something. No so okay all right thank you I have a mobile question if you look at this shortage of teachers the majority of the so it is a certified teachers on the delta. Say for example at a school district they don't have anyone to certify to math science English so at the end of the year if you put someone in that classroom. T. 2 math teachers 5 to read in or whatever subject if that person is not certified it's obvious that the test schools in the school district is not gonna be gone for a fact that the student top of performing below proficiency. So if that's the case. How are we will how can we address those issues to make sure that doesn't happen because if you look at the majority of schools in the delta. In the Southeast Arkansas those minority schools all the all the majority of the schools to teach the students are performing below proficiency so how can we get this test scores up when we don't have certified teachers in math and math and science news the help get to 10 schools up so we just put a teacher in that classroom now in the 2 that will just put bodies in the classroom. I thank I think that in many of those districts are making a concerted effort to bring in people who have the background knowledge and skills and their enrolling them those those candidates or teachers are enrolling in preparation programs to earn their license it does take some time and and they're trying to bring stability to their work force and I think until we and are able to turn that corner and bring stability to the and school systems in and parts of the state where you don't have and people in their their districts where we know and there are probably staff who could be in classrooms but then they're also districts where there are not available people so it is and it is a complex problem. I appreciate the effort but at the end of the year this test schools are not going to reflect that we have people in various programs to help bring up the. I have increased the **** is go reflect that those schools are performing below proficiency in that they're performing low below proficiency sooner or later the apartment 8 will take those schools okay am I correct. I mean that I think that that your your point about the the low achievement is directly impacted by the the quality of teachers that are in the classrooms absolutely but am I correct by saying that if the schools are payable at the school district from performing below proficiency am I correct by saying that the state will eventually taking over. Well they're they're a lot of factors that go into a district being classified in need to look at level 5 support so and. There there and there a lot of issues there. Okay thank you. President Dotson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair. So. I mean I. I like where you're going with the overall direction to try to address teacher shortage I wanna be clear on that I don't necessarily think that that someone has to pass the test to be a good teacher if they have relevant work experience and they've been successfully demonstrated they can do the job. Giving them a little extra time to get get them to pass the test I think is is is a great direction we're going but I guess kind of the fall I'm not sure if this is a an emergency rule that is temporary in nature that we might not get ourselves in a lot more hot water in about 4 months if this if this goes into a fact and then we have no place to. These teachers have no way to continue teaching and their their it could be very disruptive to the classroom in about 4 months is I guess what I'm saying my question I guess goes back to 1240 waivers and do you for see that most of these. Provisional licenses could be handled through a district requesting at 1240 waiver for teacher licensure in those specific areas where they have shortages of teachers right now those requests be made and granted through the state board. I think that I mean there are. There are yes and that is been the approach that some districts have taken that's not the pathway forward though that we feel like is going to promote sustainability in the work force no I agree I don't think it's a long term solution but I think. For the short short term until you get the go through the regular rule promulgation process could districts be more I don't know surgical in their needs in making those requests. If this emergency rule is not approved today in districts so we don't have the ability to do something can they come to the department that asked for that waiver and say okay we can take care of this until the permanent rules promulgated and me in in the next few months. Thank you I think the answer is yes districts can come in request that and fortunately we have a great number of districts that now are coming back to request an additional 5 years because that's the approach that's been taken for the last 5 years of age okay thank you thank you I understand what you're saying about and that and the timeline if if we need to go through that and regular promulgation process thank you. So. Reporter to statute you told me to pull I read on front and back. There's numerous things in the rule that I can't find any one of those statutes I have legal coming over now to make sure that I'm correct because I don't see anything is not correct. One of my biggest concerns and this is my biggest concern last Friday when we got the notice that this rule is common is we were here last week for 3 days. We were here at a special session we could address the laws. We had counsel in July reconciling June so we can address the rule. Faster than the week school started because let's face it school started Monday so when we got that notice Friday my culture and I converse that we would have to have a meeting either Monday or Saturday or some other way to address the the start of school because that's the way the rule was sent to us is that it need to happen before school started school started Monday folks. So what I want to know is why this thing came to us last Friday and it didn't come to us before the special session where we could address some of these law changes and why did it come to us earlier in the summer before school starts. What was the holdup we were we were working through the research at the request of the state board and the state board had their meeting last Thursday and that was the earliest that we were able to pull that together and get that to them. So that's that was the issue with the timing. Me personally I can speak from a committee members but I don't think that's a good excuse I mean we're sitting here with kids that have to be tall Monday's when they went back to school. And we got a rule change on Friday afternoon after we were here all week for session. I mean to me if I was a governor you you'd be in my office on Friday afternoon explain to me why we didn't do this in the special session much less in council in previous months. Represented by Springer you're recognized. Thank you Mr good morning I appreciate you all bringing this rule before the committee in that there definitely is a need to address teacher shortage in addition hi I'm of the opinion that of the requirements for teacher certification sometimes may have an adverse effect on particularly of teachers of color so that in itself I appreciate you all while knowing that and and trying to address the situation so with that being said I would just like to call to the tension that this is what the rule this is what the rule says is says the proposed amendments should serve a limited but critical purpose they will allow the Division of elementary and secondary education to issue a provisional license for up to 3 years to an applicant in role in an alternative education proper preparation program who has not yet passed the state mandated assessments for the content area in which the applicant seeks to teach in lieu of having passed the assessment however the applicant must either hold a bachelor's degree in that content area in which the applicant C. seeks to teach have earned 18 hours of college credit in the content area in which the applicant seeks seeks to teach or have documented successful relevant work experience in the content area in which the applicant seeks to teach so I just wanted to have that for the record and I just wanted to. Asked the question so let's just say if this rule does pass and you get a number of teachers who apply in their their so let's just say that that you get 113 you all would have to come back before this committee to get approval for any type of appropriation in addressing funding for those teachers would do not I would do not. Okay all right so then so then could you tell me then what would be the process then because I hear underlying concerns regarding sounds like budgeting whether that the state would have to pay for these additional teachers that may or may not be certified to teach and the results the resulting of what would happen as a result of that that we would have still a whole lot of teachers who are qualified to teach of the students that are available here so what would be the budget impact let me just see it that way of this all going forward what effect will it have on the budget if anything. It would not have an in effect on the budget because teachers are paid with the of the local salaries so it wouldn't there wouldn't be a a change all right thank you that that's that's my point thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator flowers I'm the representative flowers you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair I'm. During the 5 minute break I was able to as most of my questions and in that process learned that what you're proposing essentially is what we're already doing in and our public charter schools. And but you mentioned in your initial presentation that there is a much of a greater impact in the southeast Arkansas area of and obviously I'm concerned because of mice one of my school districts is affected as being a school district that is taking over by the state so. I'm yes I would ask what maybe if you know 2 or 3 school districts that are most impacted by the teacher shortages and then. I would ask you know we talked about a long term subs as being one of the markers that you're looking at some of the data. And that the numbers you showed me our the numbers thus far with the school district I mean with the school year that has just started. So the 2 or 3 school districts most impacted and then can you give us an idea of as to whether or not the numbers as they stand today are higher than the numbers this time in the last school year. So. When it I'm not sure if you're asking about the numbers of and the districts that are the most impacted with teachers teaching under waivers is that what you're reading. And I I I don't have my school district names on the map and and but there are I would say the district in the southeast co op area are the ones that have the highest percentages but also and that you have and several teachers teaching under a waiver in districts like on the radio you have and districts and I'm you know I do know Pulaski County and just in the last few days has talked about the they still have 50 positions that are and field and not long ago the Little Rock School District and had an article in the paper where they're going to actually have some teachers teaching virtually and one of their middle schools because they couldn't fill all of those positions again but then the numbers are going to be fluctuating based on those local districts and. So. And in just one quick follow up what is what is the impact I just heard you say and I didn't know this that. Because of the shortage and in particular Junior High School there now resorting to you know virtual resources. Can you give us an idea if we don't pass this. What will happen. If if if we don't pass this and we will continue to and have candidates who are you who are stuck in their programs and you know they're they're not able to have the license so they maybe completing a and master's degree in teaching or I licensure program and and their options are only work options would be for a district that has and an actual 40 waiver and approved that and that would be one thing I think the other thing is and again a lot of this came down to timing so that it would be at the beginning of the school year and. And and I do think whenever we talk about the the emergency rule I don't think those provisional licenses would have to be revoked I think that we would just not be able to go forward an issue new ones for the subsequent years and if the emergency rule and were in place and that permanent rule didn't get promulgated but again it and it is something that if we need to come back and go through that and regular publication process and then look at legislative changes we can. I'm being taught myself so representative Richmond you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair for your indulgence. Really one question kind of 2 parts this question and and it's concerning the younger teachers. Who spent 4 years get a degree in education come the education go to school districts somewhere and then after a year 2 years maybe 3 years they leave. Do you have any is there any survey aims for any collection of data or anything from this particular group or any group. That tries to nail down why these people after investing time and effort and money into a degree. Decides to walk away from that profession have you guys got any data about that. That local districts and may do those surveys we don't have a statewide survey that has that information. In. When you look at our colleges right now this again thank you for your indulgence on this but at the university do you also see a lowering the number of people who are choosing the education field. As a career. Those numbers have declined over time and they have stabilized and in the last 2 years I believe and that that we have seen a stabilization in the overall numbers. You know getting this just statement I really think that there needs to be an effort to collect this data because right now you're putting a band aid on a wound that needs to be stitched up all we back to the source and that and there is there's issues whether it's discipline in the classroom I know I call for a little while and alternative school a Tippi here's caught you know years and years and years and discipline is one of the biggest issues that I hear about. Specially with young teachers they walk in there and they feel like they're walking into a Warsaw. And. We're going to take a big picture look at at this problem in order to solve this problem because the teachers can't teach if they have to spend all our time trying to deal with a handful kids that simply aren't there learn. And right now a lot of teachers don't feel like they're being backed up by the administration or anything like that as well. And I'm I'm I truly believe that we will never solve this problem until we dig down into the weeds to the the really source of this discontent and it's more than just money. It's a lot more than just money. Thank you. Representive Allen you're recognized. Okay. Thank you again for allowing me to ask questions could you please explain to me the court system and the co teaching programming coop teaching program high works and with this happy program. I'm sorry I couldn't hear you could you please explain the court system and the court teaching program and high this could possibly help you. It I'm. The kind. Are you I'm not sure what you're referring to with the co op teaching system are you are you talking about the R. pep program that for teacher preparation yes okay and yes there's any I'm a let her her describe that. We currently have 11 sites for our path and that's or non traditional that we actually ran through my division and it is boots on the ground so to speak and it is at the co op level and it's supported with the cow walks out we do have one that's with Philander that's here in Little Rock do the fact that we do not have a co op in Pulaski County and I have we currently have. Over 400 that are enrolled across the state and again it would have a direct effect on 30 that are participating that had to go on hold and could not be in a class ring and it is supported with our recruitment and retention mentoring programs that are at the co op system because we know that teachers need support and as they go through a new teacher needs a lot just not on boarding that maybe they did they need extra help in something and so we have the specialists at the co op and our recruitment and retention that our pets are 11 sites across the state in yes they are at the co op level and it is a system it's a pathway that they do a boot camp for 2 weeks in the summer they made throughout and people to help them there are people and that run facilitators and they catch those teachers they go on site and mentor them through the process in 80 as a 2 year program thank you is that what you're referring to possibly. I K.. I'm not sure who's in seat 121. Yes. The representative Kevin you are recognized thank you Mr chair Dr Pfeffer could you tell us currently what the past bill rate is on this state praxis test for first time takers. I don't have the overall in front of me I do have some of the various exams. This at and would be important to know based upon that a big factor involved in this rule change hedges on. The success rate of passing that test but yet we we can't we don't have the numbers to know really what that passed bill rate is. Secondly to address representative Dotson's concern I want to make sure what I I think I heard you say. I had stepped out of the room so I want him to be sure to hear this because I will clarity and I want to make sure that we all he asked the question if the if the permanent rule did not pass before the expiration of the hundred 20 days the emergency rule what happens to the teachers that are in the classroom under the provisional license now. And. The you had a pause that cause some concern but when he left the room. I believe I heard you say no teachers would be displaced they just would not have a re issue re issuance of that provisional the following year under this rule change is that correct so this would allow a and provisional license to be issued to a teacher and that license would be renewed annually so what I think the effect would be would be that they would have that provisional license for a year it would not get pulled or rescinded but it would not be able to be re issued for so long we have your assurance that if the permit rule was not in place 120 days after the issuance of the emergency rule no teacher across state of Arkansas would be removed from the classroom due to not having. Current provisional license wait we would not be able to to resend of the license so as far as a teacher being removed that would be a local district decision but it would not be because we would resend that license because the rule change would allow as to issue that provisional license for a year okay thank you. So and I do have I do have some of those licensure pass rates I found the page and and and and it varies based on this the type of tasks and and and we have it broken down by and and different different groups but again Mister and chair we and based on the number of questions today and the data and we can pull this and and work through a and that department promulgation process where questions can be addressed. That's proper request see no objection for committees will allow you to pull the rule. With that. Yes Sir. I don't know what it is 3 times. Are you going to bring back to us though the certified teachers that are within. The schools that are in these other positions that could actually teach in the classroom I do not want to miss that because I am certain that there is a lot of schools that have all these positions maybe they're required to do some paperwork which you could look at relaxing some of that paperwork and letting those individuals go back into the classroom. Who have done it for years and years until we get in the session to. To try to try to totally revamp or whatever whatever this body wants to do. Thank you. So thank you. US Senator Irvin you're recognized I would also like to add that we for there are certified teachers all throughout the educational co ops along the lines of questioning of representative Alan I don't know why if we did really how that we would be able to them to say we'll pull those teachers from the educational coops and put them back in the classrooms to. That's something to be considered. Thank you senator. So with that we'll move on to. To consideration of the A. L. C. draft rules and an addendum to miss Jill tired the BLR council. Thank you Mr chair Jill fair at the of Legislative Research you all have in your folders a draft ALC rules and and this is based on ACT 3 from the special session regarding the school safety grants program and there was some special language and that appropriation act that sets up a process for Legislative Council and authorizing requests from the department of education and this just follows that it is signs these approval items to the peer subcommittee M. and you'll see that the first part is that at. Any approved but peer will have authority over any approval of a request for authorization by the department to begin the process of promulgating rules for distribution of signs in this set aside. And and then once they have beyond the promulgation process approval of transfers from that at 3 fifths set aside 7 that and will occur and. Only after that sets out the voting requirements for Legislative Council which is greater of 3 fifths of the quorum present where a majority of the membership of council and those approvals can't be done until the rules regarding the program have been fully completed and approved by legislative counsel And so that's all that's in the rules. Any questions or objections to rules. See non without objections rules are adopted to be reported to LC at the next proper meeting members we do have other business today we have some legal contracts and I will recognize miss Jill tired to go through those. Thank you Mr chair and the bureau received a subpoena yesterday and the state redistricting case M. and the subpoena is for documents held by the bureau related to congressional redistricting this is in the case that is filed in Pulaski County circuit court and it's important to the bureau as we always do to protect the legislative privilege that may and here to those documents and as such we M. I have already reach out to Mitchell Williams who is handling legislative privilege at issues for us in other cases we also reach out to the attorney general's office to see how what assistance we can get and handling that. The documents required by the subpoena and that we were told by the attorney general's office that they did not have the capacity to handle such a large request and and that it would be best to probably go with outside counsel there so the request by the bureau today is for the authority to enter a new contract with met the Mitchell Ms law firm to assist us with creation of a privilege log on these documents and handling any briefing on the Legislative privilege that that's necessary. If you. I have a motion to pass. I have a second all those in favor say aye All opposed Is have it contract this past with that see no further business we stand adjourned.