Judiciary Committee- House

Share sees a quorum. First bill that we're going to hear this morning is going to be Senate bill forty eight representative Pilkington you're recognized come to the end of the table and present your bill and I see you have someone with you so if you'll have them introduce themselves for the record and what's everybody's introduced you're recognized for C.. Thank you chairwoman of a Committee thank you for let me be here today I'm represented Aaron Pilkington District forty five and with me my guess and a lot of energies and self in the organization he's with as well yeah Sam sellers with we are the twenty two. Members we have at your desk a letter from Mr sellers are information sheet that says there so that has been approved for you to review that you're recognized to present your bill thank you Jill today I bring you a bill to change the good Samaritan law here in Arkansas there's the organization we are the twenty two which recently tried to get a liability insurance and found that they were unable to and then realize that they currently under Arkansas state law good Samaritan law they they do not have protection for the services that they provide and so this is just a simple change to allow them or nonprofit like them that is at eighteen in suicide prevention to be covered by the good Samaritan law but I would say M. can explain a little more detail their situation but very simple law passed unanimously out of Senate judiciary in the past thirty five zero on the Senate floor Yeah and and again executive director we are the twenty two and two thousand three February two thousand three went to Iraq was there for about eighteen months led a small team there in Afghanistan return home and almost immediately with Afghanistan have committed Cyclops psychological operations they're easy for me to say right. We got shot aligned lot lots of then and some of us came home with extra holes but we all came home alive within eighteen months returning home to my soldiers committed suicide and died by suicide so this issue is very personal and and I'm very passionate about the issue. that there's lots of of organizations that that the veteran suicide awareness campaigns and prevention efforts we we appreciate all those we're not that we're the ones that will when when folks reach out to us there are hotline or online we put on the body armor that I think we brought here we we take the trauma kit that includes the narc and tourniquets and we got to that better at that time of crisis we can knock on the door we can say we're not the cops were not your shrink we're not here to judge we're here because repel of veterans and we cannot to come out with you. Two in the morning what it when you're in your darkest place. So far since two thousand seventeen we've saved well over four hundred Arkansas veterans lights. documented that the VA looks at us I I we we talk weekly with the VA both here locally and in New York because the VA is looking at us as a evidence based operation that works and is saving lives this bill just bills couple gaps in Arkansas Code so that when our guys go out. Enter enter sitting in front of a veteran. They don't have in the back of their mind if something goes sideways which it never has we've had guns pulled we've had all kinds of crazy things happen but nothing has ever gone crazy sideways but if it does would we be helps that civilly liable acting in good faith at their request to be there's this bill just just fill that gap. Members are there any questions. Seeing the questions we have one individual another individual is signed up to speak for the bill Glenn Holt Mr hope would you like to come to the table to speak in favor of the bill. Please identify yourself and then you may make your statement. Thank you chairman my name is gonna hold I also and I respond I've been on multiple responses since I joined we are to twenty two I'm also the secretary and treasurer. As Sam said every time I go unresponsive he'll generate the shirt that I'm currently wearing today. This is what we carry with us because we don't know what we're gonna run into we get there. This is our market so if you served in the military this this will stop any fermented delete or injury that we have until higher level care can get there I'm fully in support of this bill because when we go out we're going out there and that is darkest moment. On the third of four generations to serve any in the in the services starting with my grandfather will or to my father was an airforce veteran I am an airforce veteran I'm also the father of that aren't my oldest son is a Iraq combat that in supper for BTS D. and actually as a service connected disability and had three attempts one in the field today I'm glad to say he's doing well so I'm just as passionate about this bill and I believe to be in full support of so when we go out that's one less thing we have to worry about because our focus is on that and that right our focus is on making sure that we get through the night with him that we can get him to a safe place is that possible or we stay with him until such time we feel safe. With him and he's going to see the sun or she's going to see the sun come up the next day so we can put a plan in place for them so that their lives can be full of it is when we have that night thank you. Thank you Mr hello the city would have any questions for Mr help representative college you're recognized for a question. Thank you manager I'm not sure this maybe from this call maybe for the sponsor I so obviously this is all very good and precept you guys are doing what the sport I'm curious is the way this bill is written it says that you are not liable in less the actor admission was not in good faith and was the result of gross negligence or willful misconduct so those two are both part of it so that means that someone who in good faith is grossly negligent is going to be exempt from liability so it does allow gross negligence so long as it was in good faith. Is that correct and what what would something give me can can I have an example of something that would be a a good faith gross negligence act. I just wanna make sure well we we know what we're doing here and we're doing that all the right way I can't think of a specific example of that because we are trained in an evidence based suicide assist assistance training called assist we also do have training in crisis intervention so our guys are highly trained we meet monthly to retrain and stay up to our skill set so I can't think of a situation with someone would go in and acted in a way that would put themselves or that better and at risk knowing that that's what they're doing so that's to me gross negligence is I have an intent going in that I'm going to act in a way that is not in keeping with their training ninety keeping with their missions and I use book with an anticipated about at. That is not something we do in fact we've had responses that we had to call our responses off on because it was an unsafe situation those are unfortunately not frequent but we make sure that it's as safe as possible for a person to go into the home we have relationships across the state with various law enforcement agencies and we've interacted with them some of our response calls I've been on to that were initiated by local law enforcement so we don't act with that intent and we that are that are in very seriously to that that out and we train them and retrain them monthly to ensure that that outcome is not the outcome that we expect when we go in. Follow up you're recognized for a follow up well I guess I mean is that of course is what should happen but then the I would say you might I need this bill you know if you guys are always operating on the level and there's never any negligence and in the execution of what you're doing and this bill is so and that's or this bills only for situations where it's gross negligence or negligence or willful misconduct and and that protect your you're protected under those situations right. We are but being an analytic just kind of society we are today if we go in this I going tonight. And we get to that are in safe. And then three weeks later. He has an account and successful in the family decides that there could have been something that are respond or do failed to do and wants to bring litigation against this bill would protect us we can show that we went in with the clear intent in training to do what we did and we did our job and we did it within the scope of our training and our mission if the family of someone decided to pursue some sort of medication against us because that better and unfortunately you made a decision that we had no control over at that time. If I can interject representative Colin so that. I think there may be some misunderstanding maybe between your question but let me ask this of you so that maybe you can ask this of the sponsor are you asking if sections one which is page look in two lines nine. Should it matter Miller the language on page one section a line twenty six. I think the intention was to mere the real language you know great I was in the original drafter of this legislation that was my understanding when discussing it was Senator Clarke Tucker Senator Mark Johnson it was that was the intention. Let's M. S. I think that if I'm understanding the question right but I may not be. But I think you are understand the question right now I think that I see where a representative Collins line of questioning is represent Pilkington would you like to maybe step away from the table for a little bit and and let's double check that language because I I'm not saying that anybody on the Committee necessarily having a problem yeah but you know this committee is like the wordsmith Committee at it we want to make sure that your language is nearing the other language yeah on the bill so if we can if you want to step away I'll be happy to bring it back up today or if you want to bring it back up on Thursday just to make sure that we have all that language tightened up because again what this be in a good shape that's fine I'll I've been missing is that when I read I'll be happy to go back and check everything and come back to you all with the but the better answer yes I think that may be the best way because we don't want your bill not to be in this state so if you want to just hold off if if that's okay with the committee does anybody objecting I see no one objecting so if you want to get that language to make sure everything is tightened up really good we'll put you back first in line Thursday and and your witnesses don't they want me to come back I mean this is a technical thing that Judiciary Committee often looks at but is. With the committee's permission but let represent Pilkington make sure he's got that language just like it needs to be to flow real good and we'll pick it first thing Thursday and you don't need to bring any witnesses we further testimony sounds great okay thank you thank you for your time. Members let's turn to house bill ten for house bill ten of four. Okay. Right you're recognized to introduce yourself and present your bill thank you madam chair with with your permission I've got a couple guests I'd like to bring to help explain your while you have your guests coming we're passing out the fiscal impact statement the sentencing commission. The report. So hang on Barbara's to do in the duty of two folks today so. We'll get those out and then we'll proceed. Okay represent ray you're recognized okay thank you madam chair Scott you introduce a bill. I'm Scott reticent. Scott Bradley in the Director of the Arkansas sheriff's association. Okay thank you committee this is this is my first time in front of Judiciary Committee as a non lawyer that makes mental nervous but glad to be here with you this morning house bill ten oh four this is a this is a bill a legislation that was brought to me by my share of in Faulkner County Tim Ryles he made me aware of this idea and that's where the bill came from what it would do is it would simply require the collection and publication of the full physical address of sex offenders who are required to be on the sex offender registry including the house number and if applicable the apartment and unit number where they reside. currently Arkansas only requires the street name and the block number four sex offenders on the registry. And we are one of only four states in the entire country that require less than the full physical address so there's main and Washington state they use block number and street name like we do. And then Vermont is the only state in the country that actually publishes less information than we do. And so what that looks like in practice is the registry may tell you that there's a registered sex offender let's say for example in the two hundred block of oak street. But that leaves as many as potentially as many as a hundred different houses that that could be and there are all sorts of examples where you would want to know the actual physical address say for example you're taking your kids trick or treating. Let's say your political canvassers who's going door to door I think of the sales people who Candace my neighborhood recently selling solar panels if you let your kids play in the front yard or if they're going to classmate's house for a sleepover in a neighborhood that you may not be familiar with there are literally innumerable examples in which you would want to know this information and if you live in an apartment complex where there's potentially hundreds of units there's no way to know if there's a level for sex offender if that person is entirely on the other side of the complex from you or whether they're literally just across the sheet rock in the unit next year. the purpose of the sex offender registry is to give people information that they need to keep themselves and their loved one safe and it's our role as lawmakers to do everything within our power to keep folks in our community safe and that's why this bill is supported by law enforcement the sheriff's association is in support of this bill as well as Attorney General Reppan. I will point out this bill's been amended from the previous version this was in response to conversations I had with with business groups who had some concerns about the employer information that the original bill that I filed included the in the physical address of the offenders employer as well the amended version does not change that six sorry the amended version leaves it as it was so there are no changes that this bill is proposing to the employer information should strictly to the residential information representative right ray your the Amendment have already been engrossed correct yes that's great have that discussion so there's it's been engrossed the members we don't have to take up those amendments this morning I think there may have been a question on that but it has been engrossed so I think we're good to go thank. Is it not showing online that it's been engrossed. Yeah. Some have it online some don't online I think. Okay I checked it this morning and it was showing up. Yes it was filed yesterday morning correct representative ray and it's attached. Right it should be attached everything represent ray and I had this discussion yesterday. So are we okay represent planning you say you're sorry to interrupt your right in the middle but I was getting some messages up here asking about the amendment that's okay no worries no worries so um I'm sure everybody's gotten a few emails about this bill so I'll try to preemptively answer some of the questions that that have been brought to me you know why there's been some people who've asked me well does this violate people's privacy while the sex offender registry already contains a large amount of information Concerning the offenders on the list and there's all sorts of places within society where people's addresses are public record whether that's voter registration property tax records deed recordings things of that nature another question I've been asked is you know does this put sex offenders in danger of any sort I would submit that there's forty six states out of fifty that already publish the information that I'm proposing we publish and there's no instances that I'm aware of in which there's instances of of vigilante violence or or attempts of violence against this population Another thing that I've been asked several times is you know are we just trying to punish people further the purpose of the sex offender registry is not to punish people it's to protect innocent people that have to live amongst sex offenders sex offender registries have been challenged in court many many times on all sorts of grounds everything from ex post facto to due process to cruel and unusual punishment equal protection search and seizure you name it and they've been consistently upheld and that's because it's a civil measure reasonably designed to protect people And so those are the main concerns that have been our questions that have been brought to me and with that Scott do you have anything you want to add. I don't know by now that is the the shares Association longship rows we we feel like this bill is necessary and and we feel like that's what the they had in mind when this when this was put together was the actual physical address not the block number what number because of lots of confusion if you can imagine is apartment building on the block I mean how how would you know so we would just the shares social agent and full support and we would ask that you guys would supported also members are there any questions representative college you're recognized for a question. Thank you managers a share Bradley I'm curious why do you think that they intended to house number when this that block number in the original section I think it's important we know the actual physical address keep our citizens safe to know exactly where they're at acoustically yours still stroking earlier you're gonna let your children go out play in your yard you like to know if there's a there's a sex offender next door you should know that you should know that so that sounds like maybe that's are you asking for a follow up please thank you but I mean I'm curious is there any information about the intent of the original bill that you have that we don't have no okay thank you the other day ADD represented colleges in rural areas a lot of times there are no blocks. And so that leads to information being less user friendly for people are trying to access that information. Representative Scott you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair of representative rate did you go into the story of what actually transpired for your share to reach out to you about this bill or did I miss that part. So share files contact me about this bill because it came to his attention that some sheriffs across the state but not speaking out of turn some share of synced across the state were publishing the full physical address on on their registry in that county and there were when it came to their attention that that's actually not what the statute said verbatim there was some concern that they you know maybe subject to litigation and so that's why they have share files approach me with this bill and asked me to help clarify. Per se Richardson you're recognized for your good representative Clowney you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair and thank you to president of ray and chair proudly I'm. I guess my question is so you mentioned that in forty six other states they're already doing what you're proposing today Because I think everybody on the committee wants to keep people safer. Six hundred I know historically some of the lowest percentage of of the lowest percentage of people to re offend do you have data that shows that these laws in the other forty six states are in fact serving the purpose of keeping people safe fair. Well I can tell you. What the description of folks on the sex offender registry is so I think this is very instructive So the three categories of people who are required to register our level for sex offenders level three sex offenders and what are colloquially referred to as high twos so level for sex offenders the description is sexually dangerous person these individuals these are individuals with impaired judgment or control who have sexual or violent compulsions that they lack the ability to control this may be due to peta Phalia or other disorders of sexual attraction mental illness or personality disorder that distorts thanking interferes with behavioral control and pre disposes the person to acts of sexual predatory sexual violence. All level threes these are where considered high level offenders these are entities individuals usually have strong histories of repeat sexual offending and or strong anti social violent or predatory characteristics sexual compulsions are likely to be present but may be kept under control when release prevention plans are followed and treatment is continued. The offense patterns of these individuals reflect a relatively high probability of re offense and or a risk of substantial injury to victims should in of a re offense occurred and then level two offenders represent what it what is described as a moderate level of danger but the only level two offenders that are required to register or when the perpetrator is eighteen years of all eighteen years of age or older and the victim is fourteen years of age or under specifically to your question I did I'm not aware of research that has been done on this issue I'm sure there's much out there but I will say that federal law requires every state to have a sex offender registry that's been the case since I believe nineteen ninety three and as long as federal law requires us to have a registry it's my opinion that the information is made available to the public should be as user friendly as possible. Represent County follow up follow up you're recognized thank you madam chair at and I and I do appreciate that and again of course want to keep people safe I just think that we have to acknowledge that there is a balancing that needs to be done here with respect to the civil liberties of people who are on the registry and I understand that there are people that share a lot of characteristics that you just read off but if we are going to infringe on people's rights which is I think what publishing address does to an extent and I think some of us would say that's worth it but to do that calculation of whether or not it's worth it Do you not think that it's important that we have data that shows that there would be a benefit that that would actually in fact pay off with the reward of increased public safety. Well I think as I mentioned in my in my explanation of the bill there's countless examples of where this information would people would want or need to have access to this information you know I could go through those examples again but I don't think everyone needs to hear him again you know in terms of the balancing you know I have had a lot of conversations with people about what is and is not you know absolutely necessary to include and that's why that's why I made the amendments to the bill that I did after consulting with with business groups and so I feel like I've addressed that balancing to the best of my ability. Members any other questions. We do have one individual who signed up to speak against this bill Mr Teague David Teague if you'll come to the end of the table identify yourself and you'll be recognized to make your statement. My name's David Teague here as a personal situation I just retired recently from forty years of being in public safety in the fire service most recently the last eleven years as the fire chief of one of the towns here in central Arkansas I got involved with this about five or six years ago when. By the son in law was arrested for child ****. I was surprised you know never would have thought it but it happened since that time I've learned more about child porn and I ever thought I would need to dial and part of that is to try to figure out where and he's still incarcerated by the way. try to figure out where do we go with his life after he gets out I continually see it as a representative the fire service in the last two legislative sessions. Continually had more more stuff to the registry requirements when this bill came out I was. I am glad to see that they've taken out the employer name and things like that because part of it is is how do we give these guys or girls a chance to to live their life and be successful after their time is incarcerated now the sentencing commission says this the increase public disclosure of personal information may have a potential impact on the housing and employment opportunities of the impacted offender which could result in longer prison stays while awaiting an approved for plan would more say. What I would look in my research that I've that I've done that five. Go back to and I'd like to recent quotes just real quickly from of. Article or a a pamphlet put out by sherry fully and and Michael wood who are the people that run the six registry organization or whatever here in the state first off this is they lead the nation in their approach to sex offender read assessment the publication contains the following statements receive the recidivism rates for sex offender are not any higher than other criminal offenses and this is where I think sometime this next one is where I think sometimes maybe we we go overboard treating low risk offenders with high levels of an intervention makes them worse and wastes resources not all sex offenders re offend a sex offender is present with varying levels of risk and that's the purpose of the assessment low risk should equal lower supervision so provides supervision and intensity of service and then also they come up with me and say this recite residency restrictions are not likely to stop the majority of sex offenses as they are committed by people known and loved so. The personal part of this is one I want to see my son in law have a chance to the make it he lost a job paying over a hundred thousand dollars a year. And I don't know what is going to do now. But with the address out there for I know my daughter street. She lives in the three hundred block there's like five houses. In the three hundred block and that's in the town most most cities if you're if you're in a hundred block you're gonna have eight or ten houses is all There it was in actual incident in Pulaski County and twenty twenty four where somebody. Like I column keyboard cowboy decided he was going to get a sex offender and went to somebody's house found out where they were and and did harm to all if somebody does that to my son in law. If they do a drive by on on my daughter's house there there's a better chance of them hitting my grand son. One my grandson's them to hit the sex offender I just think the the information this there is always in the you know if it's somebody living next to me I'm going to know what they look like I'm going to you know that that kind of stuff so I just as just see is but one more thing on here is really not necessary I don't I don't see a need for this bill. Thank you Mr take would you accept questions if there are any members are there any questions of this witness saying that thank you Mister take for your testimony. We have no one else who signed up to speak for against the bill representive ray you're recognized to close for your bill. Thank you madam chair colleagues in closing I just wanna give you three three numbers to think about one two and three the first number is one. Unfortunately Arkansas ranks number one in the nation the number of child sex abuse cases per one hundred thousand residents the national averages seventy nine cases per one hundred thousand. And that. Two hundred and fifty four per one hundred thousand we are more than triple the national average. That's not something to be proud of. The second number is two we're second in the nation for most rapes per one hundred thousand at seventy four we're more than double the national rate of thirty eight. And third we're number third in the nation for the number of sex offenders per one hundred thousand residents at five hundred and ninety six and there's been data put out by the Columbia Missourian that suggest that because Arkansas is one of only four states in the country and the only state in the south that does not publish the full physical address of sex offenders that we are actually a state that has migration from Missouri of sex offenders into Arkansas. the purpose of the sex offender registry is to protect innocent people. By giving them the information they need to protect themselves and their loved ones and this bill just brings Arkansas into conformity with what forty six other states are already doing with that I'm close for the bill members representative ray his close for his bill is there a motion. Representive Underwood you're recognized. That members have a motion to do pass on the floor is there any discussion on the motion. Representive under you're recognized for discussion of the motion thank you madam chair if I can tell you real quick I'm going to vote for this I'll tell you why up until a few months ago I was a reserve sheriff's deputy. And back in the spring I was able to go along with some a multi agencies up there led by the US marshals service. On what was called operation clean sweep and it was to make physical contact with every six of sex offender in Benton county that hadn't been done in over two years because of covid. This was the first time I'd ever done anything like this and so I was the paperwork guy in the back of the Chevy Tahoe and we went out in the Boondocks and we found the address listed. And we were looking for certain individuals and because I was the paperwork guy I could see what this person had been Convicted of so imagine the worst thing you would have. We run up to a dilapidated farmhouse but it wasn't the person we were looking for it was actually a young mother who came out with a small child like a little boy four five years old and we told her we are looking for this person she goes I think that's the person who lives around back. So it wasn't the farmhouse but it was the incredibly dilapidated camper trailer parks ten twenty feet behind for males. And she had no idea who's living behind landlord and told. And is we drove around the Boondocks for several days I will never look at a what I might think is a abandoned camper the same way again because you might be surprised who's living in there. In my current wife I was stationed at the marine corps base twenty nine palms California in the middle of the desert. A California hasn't enact interactive a sex offender map. That they update frequently. A sambar Dino county we're twenty nine palms is located is one of the least policed parts the United States that I can think of. In a lot of sex offenders from Los Angeles and San Diego that's where they go because it's no they know it so less policed and so basically if you are a marine or sailor your sailor getting station twenty nine palms California you learn pretty quickly how to find that map online because there's not enough base housing. And so we have to go out and look in the community and you boot up the street in twenty nine palms are yucca valley you might be amazed by how many sex offenders living on your street. And so for those reasons I support this bill thank you ma'am. Any other discussion. Members we have a motion on the floor all in favor of the motion to pass say aye. All opposed say no. The ayes have it motion carries congratulations you have passed your bill thank you manager thank you Committee. Members if you'll turn your attention to house bill twelve forty five house bill twelve forty five. House bill twelve forty five mins. Be presented by Mister L. B.. We all know who you are but would you. Introduce yourself and then feel free to or introduce your guest also or email you whatever and your. If you're deductions U. or. Free to present your bill thank you Mr chairman Carol Dalby state representative for district one hundred beside me I have John Wilkerson who is the legal counsel for the Arkansas municipal league members you have before you house bill twelve forty five it's really very simple bill give you a little bit of background those of you who have been on this committee for a number of years no that often in our judicial system we found that system via fees fines center that are access to those who come before the court this bill is a collaboration between the Arkansas judicial council is fully in support of this bill Arkansas Municipal League in the association of counties and I believe I saw Mr Whitmore step in a few moments ago. This bill is asking for a task force to be formed during the interim that we can study all the fees that are tacked on to folks who come before whether it's in the civil at the but basically the criminal division ended just give you an example. You can come before District Court judge on a traffic violation possibly a speeding ticket maybe that speeding ticket carries a fine of two hundred and fifty dollars you can't pay that fine in for when you come to court you ask for an installment fee and then this then we tack on ten dollars a month on that installment fees so if you could only pay ten dollars a month on your you're fine you get tacked another ten dollars and so you can see how it it piles up and we need to take a look at those that's what we're looking at not just that one but that's just an easy example that comes to mind and you will see with in this bill. That we're going to look at the input of the committee very interested parties the Arkansas Supreme Court the District Court judges association the circuit judges in the state the administrative office court the mayor's the Arkansas Municipal League the county judges we need to look at it from a holistic approach simply because a lot of times counties and cities also look at this money to help balance their budgets were not trying to do a permit anybody budget wise but it's just time it's been a good number of years since this is done and is doing that and if you're worried about the cost of the task force in this particular committee the budget would come out of here and all my years of being on this committee being chaired this committee we have never expended our budget in the interim because we just stop me and I would anticipate that we would only need about quarterly but we need to get this going so that come next session we will have some meaningful legislation as to the fines and fees that are charged in our state with that I would ask of Mr Wilkerson if he has anything he liked and certainly we would be amenable to any questions that you're not allowed to add I'm sorry I John Wilkerson with Municipal League I'm sorry Mr yet we really appreciate you represent Dalby by talking with us and work with us on this is something that we we focus on for a long time in trying to understand the financial systems in the fines and fees and all that sort of stuff as well we're for the counties were or excited to have the time in Rome to take a look at this holistic approaches representative Dalby mentioned as we're excited we we appreciate your consideration on this. Are there any questions from the committee. Saying saying none of. Is there anyone no one in the audience is asked to speak for against the bill. misstep you ready to close for your bill thank you Mister chair I am close for the bill and make a motion to do pass or a me questions on the motion. All those in favor of the do pass motion say aye. Opposed. Motion carried. You you have successfully. Your bill Mr thank you and I appreciate that Mister chair thank you members I do believe that this is going to be something that's important and this is going to be something that all of you are going to be involved in so thank you. Let's share get back to her seat will personally. All right members Assuming that we're here and I haven't heard any other direction that we will be here on Thursday the first thing we will take back up will be Senate bill forty eight is to make sure that we've got that language tightened up and correct in that bill so Senate bill forty eight will be taken up then house bill eleven forty four. Will be taken up representative Gazaway has slammed our agenda with with a lot and he's not even here today that we can even poke at him but I have discussed with him these are technical corrections that come from the code revision commission he has I think a few little tweaks here and there we will set those all on a day for code revision and so they will stay on our agenda for a while but those are coming up. I have nothing else lined up for Thursday other than those two things watch your text messages watcher emails because we're all watching the weather but I'm anticipating we will be here Thursday morning I'm anticipating ten o'clock because I can't imagine that either one of those bills will take two hours and with that thank you for your time this morning we are adjourned.