Judiciary Committee - Senate

Call this meeting Senate Judiciary to war churches we have called. we're gonna start out with the representative Dalby on house bill fourteen seventy two. So representative Dalby if you want to go in explain your bill you're recognized thank you Mr chairman Carol Dalby state representative for house district one hundred center urban and I have this bill together and house bill fourteen seventy two all it's doing is over on page two lines four and five it's just an update in language where the previous bill of the previous law said records of delinquency adjudication for which the juvenile could have been tried as an adult that's being changed to for adjudications for a felony involving violence as defined under section five four five oh one so this is really an update in language with that I'll be happy to answering questions for you any further Mr press where would you go and and are not sure so for the record. Thank you Mr chairman my name is Troy Braz well I'm a circuit judge in the twentieth judicial district that covers Faulkner Van Buren and Searcy counties and I'm the juvenile court judge in that area okay thank you thank you thank you in any any other questions from committee. Senator flowers. Okay. I'm just looking at this bill so why is this language needed to be changed. Senator flowers thank you very much that's a great question and it's an honor to be back in in front of you at this committee as you may remember I've been part of a juvenile judges group it's really looked at juvenile justice reform in the state of Arkansas as we continue to work with these kids to hopefully get them back on the right path we have instances where kids that could have been charged as an adult were charged in juvenile court and so that could be a property damage case a juvenile that sixteen that has one Adderall pill that belong to somebody else they come into our court they do a great job the ready to the rehabilitated Raby back in in the community and we're not able to expunge or seal those records in so it gives judges more tools in the toolbox to reward the young folks are coming to our course that are doing a great job and so we're we're excited to be able to reward those kids so with this opportunity. But it would be. After ten years. No man Senator flowers the way the law is written currently is that you would have to you could not expunge those and you would have to wait ten years now the only ten year look back here that you have to hold on are the felonies involving violence as defined in 5-4-501 see the work that I would not be eligible for expungement and would be required to be retained for ten years okay so only violence offences felonies involving violence as defined in 5-4-501 that would be like murder kidnapping aggravated robbery terroristic act rape sexual assault first Agra's aggravated residential burglary okay at because it seems like I recall. Maybe Some prior session we had. Legislation passed. That allow. ABC. To look back at a juvenile's record. if they were committed to ATC as an adult. Thank you you recall that. Survivors I don't recall that specific piece of legislation and so I'm not really familiar with ATC's look back ability I don't think they would have I'm not really sure what their access to is to those records but what you're saying here is that the juvenile who has not committed that felony involving violence. Date their records can be expunged that is correct if the if the court believes that it's appropriate and that specific case doesn't require expungement that gives the court the opportunity to do that should I I can't earn that through their participation in court programs okay thank you thank you are there any any more questions from committee. Saying under we have any anyone from the audience which speak for against the bill. Parks say none are you close to your claim because from a bill and I would ask for a a good vote from the committee. Are we have a motion do pass we have a second any discussion. All those in favor say aye All the Bill pass is represented Dalby your joy thank you Mr chair thank you members of the committee. We're going to representative paid are you ready are sent to fight you ready. To speak to seventy. This is a bill that was re referred to the Committee. Senate bill two seventy. You want to go ahead and explain. Thank you Mr thank you Committee this is a bill that we heard the the day that a drafting error in it and on page seven line. Fourteen. We got the language added that belonged after the if access line fifteen the fact if the offense is a felony. As I stated earlier this bill have been vetted by a lot of people in the head everybody had missed except for Senator Tucker and he's very sharp and he caught it but there's another thing a mistake that I made in that vetting process several groups had had input on this bill and it in its original version the third offense would have been a felony but that was taken out in one of the by request of one of the group's earlier it's always a misdemeanor the third offense is not a felony this bill would only create a misdemeanor offense. Okay probably won't take any questions or any questions from committee Senator Tucker. So you have this amended the members on counter on the floor yes okay but you didn't address that issue that we talked about. With the exception with a minor being under seven years of age you have an amended that language at all well that would broaden the scope of the bill I mean that is already a possibility that could happen today bank or side love for this bill to be broader as I stated on the Senate floor this to me is a compromise from where I where I'd like to get to be so the survive basically to change the language that creates it doesn't create that fails to stop the situation that you described would actually broaden the bill and and it's scope okay. I want to rehash everything we went through last time Mister chair but I would like to ask a few questions of the prosecuting attorneys if if there's anybody in here who could come answer a couple questions. Okay. Go the other table in there for you Sir for the record. Bob McMahon prosecutor coordinator representing the prosecuting attorney's association you're recognized by. Thank you thank you Mr chairman Mr McMahon my first question for you is is whether you're aware of. Of any crime on the books in Arkansas where a physical trait of a person's body is an element of the crime to be approved. The center I'm I'm not aware of the of another crime that that sets out of physical care. The This bill requires that a person going to the bathroom of the opposite sex and sex is defined in the bill as a person's immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics existing at the time of birth so do you agree with me that. Proving a person's sex. At the time of birth as defined in the bill is something the prosecutors if they ever make use of this law would have to prove in order to obtain a conviction you Senator out I would agree with that we we would have to prove that based on the statute as written. I'm now I'm asking you to go a little. Specular is not the right word but. How do you anticipate a prosecutor proving a person's immutable biological sex as objectively as determined by anatomy and genetics existing at the time of birth when by definition of a. The crime they can be prosecuted until they're eighteen years or older so. Their anatomy genetics existing at the time of birth will be at least eighteen years old. At the time of prosecution presumably or possibly much later how do you anticipate a prosecutor proving that. I certainly there there I guess there's there's multiple ways I guess we go about trying to do that I mean we would have that burden of proof I'm assuming that we could try to get a search warrant to get that information we could possibly do a subpoena to get medical records but it it in that case you would have issues and then I guess I those are probably two main ways I think that we we we we we try to do that and I guess question to blood test so again I'm not by any one of those three ways I guess is something we can try to do that would be I believe you know up to the court I mean if we had to get a warrant would have to go for judge if we had to get a court order we have to go get a subpoena then the blood test I guess is medical records but that's I think that's how we would go about doing it but again not but there may be something else I'm leaving out but those those are three ways I guess we could try to do it. It's just a drill down on that just a little bit more my understanding I'm not a scientist or physician my understanding is that kids babies are born intersex where they have General's more than one sex or their blood is off from that just the standard X. Y. chromosome either having extracts from somewhere in an extra Y. chromosome when they're born that all of those happen about as frequently as people are born with red hair that's the way it was presented to me I do you know anything about that and and do you do you think that a prosecutor would have to put an expert witness on say for example if you got a if you had a warrant and took a blood sample that an expert witness would have to testify as to whether the book the blood type proved beyond a reasonable doubt the way that their genitals were at birth or or how do you how do you see that going center I'm certainly no expert as well and that subject I I would think if that was a situation that you described the we we have to use an expert witness on to to try to prove that. Okay and then really. my next and hopefully last question which is kind of a separate issue is that another element of the crime is that person not only has to enter into a public changing facility but also remains in a public changing facility of course we already have criminal trespass on the books where you have to enter into a course that's private property this is public property I guess let me ask this first are you or any other crime on the books. Where a person can be convicted of a crime Because of entering into public property. I'm not aware which part of public property against no no Sir I don't think that I am. Okay So then with other proper you get burglary offenses and things like that but the property I'm I'm not sure yes Sir so then that work remains how do you anticipate prosecutors handling the determination of whether a person has remained in a public changing facility and and at what point. That will constitute a crime under this law to pass well I mean remains is not finding the statue but I think it be determined by prosecutor law enforcement with investigation on a case by case basis I don't know how else would be able to do that I mean it would depend on the facts of a particular case as as to how we interpret that and we exercise our discretion you know on whether to charge or not but thank you would again depend on the facts of a particular case something to be hard for me right now to tell you what that would mean you know without a specific but I know we can hypothetical this to death but I mean I think you would take it would depend on the actual facts of a case. Since remains not defined well there's really no other way to go about it would you agree yes Sir I think that's an example and I'll finish with this Mister chairman and an example I gave last week as. A person could. Follows two examples I gave last week and I don't hypotheticals that autistic with the two that I gave last week one is a person could enter into a bathroom go to the sink and wash their hands while a child is at the next sink washing their hands the person stays and to wash your hands whether the soap rinse it off dry their hands leave. Could that constitute remaining in a public changing facility and your opinion I mean I guess you could but again Senator I think it would depend on the facts particular case and whether the individual is in their prior to the child coming in or in there you know at in there and then the child can mimic again it's it's hard to say up front it would it would depend on a specific case by case basis I think okay the second example I gave last week as a person's in a locked stall with the door closed they are sitting on the toilet they hear a child come and they remain. Sitting on the toilet inside the lock still with the door closed until the child leaves the bathroom. That constitute remaining in a public changing facility. I'm again it could I think the prosecutor would you know his or would exercise his or her discretion as to whether they thought that was a violation of the statute so I mean again exercise that discretion to be hard to predict on the front end what what that would mean that that that the faxes you describe them me as a proctor I probably would charge that but again I guess it's possible. Thank you. Mr McMahon all all of these gestures if senator truckers giving you though are really at the discretion of the prosecutor correct yes Sir we would exercise that discretion based on the investigation and what what information was gathered by law enforcement and talking to witnesses all right Senator Clark if questions. Thank you Mr. Of. The. The all this is. Brady some confusion in my mind and some. Questions of. Mr men is or a law. Now that prohibits me of from this deciding that I want to use the women's restroom from now on. Not not that I'm aware of Senator so if I just decide. Her sexual mail that I want to use the women's restroom from now on there's no law that prohibits me from doing that I'm not aware. Thank what about I go in decide that I want to use the. The women's restroom wherever I go and whoever has owns the place says you can't do that there's. What right do they have to tell me I can't I'm not sure center of would assume they they don't have any but of course it's a on the the business I think it's it's up to them to possibly set the policies but again I'm specifically I'm not aware I'll have to look at a. I would think is an owner of the of the the the business you know they would they would have some but what you know what the government entity I don't know the answer the question I would think that they couldn't they couldn't but I can just I can right now get up go down to the end of the hall to the women's bathroom and use if I choose I would have to look that up I'm assuming that you could you can't prosecute. If I could finding on the books prohibit that no Sir I we would you know anything no Sir I do not. That's sentenced. You know at the. Who was with our new what people want to be the new norms we see to of opened a can of worms and. I don't know center patients get the best fix for not of. The and. So let me extend that. This law that the center Payton is proposing this bill. Does it just affect public restrooms or does it affect let's say the wind and. Showers I'd I'd I'd have specifically look at the bill but I mean it mentions locker rooms and things of that nature I'd again or or people or just flat out naked. Center I'm told it does mention specifically mention showers as well okay I can look for the is I'm hoping there's something currently on the books that prohibits me from. Using the women's shower. But will and I'm not talking about a closed. Facility. Because I'm not familiar with a woman shall I know what the men's shower is like let's. What do you know of anything I do not but I I've got I've got an attorney my office that this I'm not saying that showers very expertise but she would be more familiar with the offenses that are already on the books which may affect your question if if she could join me at the table I would appreciate that. If you want to defy yourself for the record you're recognized speak. Times staff attorney with the prosecutor coordinator's office I don't should write my criminal code today but I think it would fall under your if you go to Michael yeah I think it would fall under indecent exposure. Indecent exposure what would be in this prosecutor what would be a indecent exposure. Because they are exposing a sex organs to another person but it but that's what happens in the shower. Right. So what would be indecent exposure. Because that's the way the law is written. But so that the but if I was the opposite sex and said I was transgender than what I would have that right. Same same equipment. If you're if you're saying if you're what if I said I was transgender same equipment then would not be indecent exposure if you're all in the same. A shower facility and all of the sex organs are the same I would assume it would not be. Say all the sex organs for the same us and they were different but I said I was transgender. Well I'd I'd have to know more about the transgender person whether they had the same sex organs or not. I think we need to know. Ninety to added to the bill I guess I don't know. so I think the bill covers it. But I think there's a lot of work I think Senator Tucker is making some arguments they're making some assumptions of things that are happening or going to happen do you would you agree with that sentiment. Yes Senator I think Some people are very good about making a mountain out of molehill yes Sir. Well again I don't I don't like the fact that it needs to be fixed and I'm not even sure this is the best fix but it just it seems like their situations are being created out there that that maybe the public at large thanks ought to be fixed would you agree with that so I wouldn't affect the question to me I'd like to I'd like to say that I would love for this bill to go much further as I've stated multiple times it to me this is a huge compromise because only trying to control the situation when minors are present the shower room that you mentioned of. If a male was to go into the women's shower room and not expose himself he's not guilty of indecent exposure exposure. He's just ages they're seeing what he wants to see and while people are saying this is aimed at trans sexual individuals. Folks in my lifetime I've seen plenty heterosexual people that tried to peep in windows are nowadays we have online you know. drones and. I think there's multiple reasons why. We should try to get a little bit of control in the situation when minors are present. And I think this bill does not cover all the situations that many of us would like to cover its it just covers the most extreme with with children present and center by more you in the education to me the other day when it was brought out by a member of that. Their local school Brought that had. Brought that they had multiple children that. Multiple times during the year war transcendent worked. And then they were I would work I was not in that committee but I've heard some of that yes thank you thank you. Senator flowers you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair. I'm trying to understand. It is the. One this is. This is a Class C. misdemeanor manner on page three of the top line one. You have. Class C. misdemeanor under subdivision eighty six of this section this section we're talking about is five fourteen one T. and B.. And. I'm looking at one to N. B.. Fourteen of fourteen one ten B.. That's currently in the statute. There is no subdivision eighty six so what. What are you talking about that's correct subdivision ninety six is what we're adding. One through five is already in the code and what we're adding is. Thirty six. So where's eighty six. It's on page two. Starting on line seven. That's six eighty. It. It's a six a. If you look online for it's five fourteen one ten a and then we're at an six A. and six B.. I guess code revision will have quite a job to do in trying to figure this this bill out if it passes I don't understand. Maybes maybe the two lawyers down there can help me understand this I do not understand this. Thanks for your record. Senator Senator flowers the the bill the law as it currently exists at five fourteen one ten the very first letter is small a a person commits sexual indecency with a child if and then it has one through five and so he is adding a six to that so it is little a. Six. The Little eighty six I guess. Is in section four on page two start the line for. The style online for that's just for reference forty one ten a so that we get where were you notice to places and then the new language is six a and because the current law goes through five. He begins with six. For the new law. It in any in your opinion is any of this new language that starts on page two line seven down through. Thirty is that new year is that already because the. Part of the. What we're talking about here you there is a. Reference to the Department division of corrections division of community correction already in. Five fourteen. One ten. Eighty. Under. Subsection four eight. It is any of this redundant in your opinion no ma'am so all of this is new it doesn't cover anything that's already in the code it does not. It also. Because all of these other crimes within sexual indecency require soliciting or exposing or causing or coursing a minor to expose. And of and that's one through five all required does this one is completely different it is interest just entering a public changing facility when you know someone is in there who is less than eighteen. No particular mental state is required yes he's he's added knowingly knowingly enter and then notice a minor is present a minor of the opposite sex. We're we're you see in that. So the first knowingly is online eight Page two. Knowingly enters and then knowing a minor is present is on line nine. Would you say that that only deals with the public changing facility yes ma'am. So if it's not designated as a changing facility. I mean how do you distinguish just a regular bathroom with the. The it the number will wash bowls the definitions are on page three. And begins on lines six through line nineteen and public changing facility as include without limitation restroom bathroom locker room or shower room. And it does not include a private dressing area. It does not include what a private dressing area that is open to the public that's designed for changing into an out of clothing that is for sale in a commercial establishment. Okay thank you. Senator Tucker your question. Thank Mister I think Sir Clark is a couple good points that deserve a lot more attention. One is that and I'm I'm I have questions for both of you but I'm a star with Mr Mr McMahon. If you are a private business you can set your own policies for within your business correct. Yes Sir I believe that's correct and if someone is making another customer of yours feel uncomfortable whether it's in a bathroom or if you're in a restaurant and it's in the general seating area or wherever as a business owner you have set personally correct yes. if you look at the definition of public changing facility. And this bill on page three one ten. It says public changing facility means a public or private facility so now if this bill passes were setting law not only for government owned bathrooms for bathrooms of privately owned businesses as well correct. Listen I think it goes on on line eleven I think it's is held out is open to the public so I think that may be the the difference if I understood your question correctly. But of a privately owned restaurant restaurant is held out as open to the public correct. Or Best Buy. Or whatever any any private business is held out as open to the public yes. And some of those. Cool places facilities or hell that is open to the public some of them are publicly owned some of them are privately. Right right so language and line ten. The way I read it tells me that this is going to apply to facilities that are L. that is open to the public whether they're publicly owned or privately owned. That's correct if you designate them for one sex or the other as we know many private businesses have chosen to put up a designation that the facilities for either sex right and but that's not really my question if you designated or lose latitude for. Private owner to. Manage the situation either anyway they wanted. Where is this distinction in a language that you're talking about on page two. So just a minute ago. So on line nine as as assigned. And then. The word designated as used on line twenty six if it's been temporarily designated. But the bottom line is applies to private owned. Businesses as well. If they provide of public. Changing area yes okay. Miscon. If so thank you that's what my first question my second question is. The example that Senator Clark was taken taking you through is if someone goes in the bathroom and. Expose themselves and it's indecent exposure correct yes and then if there's also a reference well if you go in and you don't expose yourself we also have a crime of voyeurism on the books correct yes. in both of those instances both indecent exposure and voyeurism it's not an element of the crime. What your genitals were at birth as it now or any other physical trait of your body no Sir it's there's a mental state and the mental state is. But the for the purpose of sexual arousal gratification correct yes Sir and then there's conduct very specific conduct that that those laws prohibit yes Sir. And now I'm gonna ask a very general question which is that if you go into a bathroom. Right now. And you're going in there to harm a person and really any kind of way. Will there be a crime on the books to prosecute that person under yes Sir thank you. Clamped I'm gonna go try to pronounce that last thing. Shekhawat you're recognized Clint thank you for recognizing me. You're not alone in struggling with the last name thanks I'm a. It's not because I'm pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran church in Fayetteville Arkansas. And I'm I'd like to share with you why I have made use of one day that god has given me to drive six hours across the great state of Arkansas and and talk with you guys. And I wanted to start by just recognizing or honoring each of you as a person I looked it up I think it's on this committee is Senator Stubblefield child of god. Senator flowers child of god. Senator Hester child of god. Senator Rice child of god. Senator Tucker child of god. Senator Gilmore child of god. Senator Mickey. Child of god Senator Clark child of god. passing laws to address issues that do not exist. Is typically done either as a dog whistle. Or out of irrational fear. Neither is good leadership. Or good governance. So the center sitting next to me I think is bringing forward. A bill that passes either the tests of good leadership and good governance. I got up at four AM this morning and between state bill in Little Rock. Use to public restrooms. The Valero and all my and the case is an Atkins. The older I get the more frequent the stops becoming coffee doesn't help. In the restroom in Atkins a dad actually was with their child and came into the men's restroom that I was using and since I was in there and he didn't want to be in there with his daughter they went into the women's restroom to your point about people do actually use of the restrooms depending on how they're labeled all the time and they do it just because of their judgment they know they need to go to the bathroom. I'd like you to try and imagine what it might be like to use restrooms while traveling. If you are trans gender. I'd actually like to know of all the senators on this committee. Do you know anyone who's trans gender. Do you know anyone who are transgender parents. Of Children themselves. I do. You know any elected officials in this state who are transgender. I do. In all instances. In every single instance this law and others like it would force them to forego using public restrooms. And or go to restrooms the do not match their gender identity. But mostly what this life. Does is it simply makes them feel targeted. And afraid. My favorite travel writer Robert Kaplan used to say the hallmark of a safe and civil society is the availability of public restrooms. Yes someone who spends a lot of time in public spaces I agree with them. Creating additional barriers to restroom access for transgender adults lacks basic civility. It's Big Brother intruding on what we all know how to handle ourselves we all know how to go to the bathroom and we know how important it is especially when it becomes urgent. To allow me to combine a little humor with my religiosity thinking of Moses talking to pharaoh seeking freedom for his people and given I pastor many transgender people. My basic request to you is would you please let my people P.. I know The senator Mickey it has to pretty interesting question last week. and I think that Senator Tucker is really doing a good job of pointing out there the real problem with this bill is it's introducing. And criminalizing not a mental state of what your intentions are or an action that actually harms someone but what is actually happening now is we're trying to establish a law that would make it criminal to be in a space simply because of. How your body is constituted. I think this is deeply problematic and it's genuinely strange and weird. I think it's actually designed primarily even though a sense of what it sounds like the two of you are talking about keeping kids safe what you're really doing is you're targeting people. And I'm just asking you please would you please stop targeting people and actually pass laws that are helpful and useful in our state please. Thanks. Blake turning. The chair named Committee my name is platooning I represent myself I am a born raised or Kansan a registered voter in Little Rock a Christian came in and the number of the professional with eight years of experience in child services common to health child welfare tonsil services. I and we oppose SB two seventy. First I want to thank the committee for having me the last time that I spoke on a bill in a committee here was a winter storm last month and we few of us here that and made it into the building and artists money was cut short by a to fifteen minutes in total I had thirty seconds to wrap up all of my statements which were appealing fee on the bill that I was opposing. So thank you for giving me the time to speak today. I personally want to thank you for that because having your time cuts Goes in line with a lot of things that I've been seeing from the legislature lately around Limiting democracy limiting the way that you we speak here from the people of Arkansas and the concerns that are raised in the state. I also want to thank you for listening to me. It takes courage to listen to someone who opposes you and opposes the things that you are proposing the for the body. It takes courage to listen to. Statements that are contrary to what you told us objection undetectable troops and I want to continue to encourage that courage. As you listen to more of what I have to say and as you listen to what the Speaker before me had to say as you listen to the people who have also had courage to come before you and testify against this bill. And against many of the bills that have been proposed for this legislature this the session. It does take courage to. Step back thank question those beliefs that have driven you to have to these bills and to support these bills. So out a little bit. Some of the language and rhetoric around this bill and around other bills in this legislature a lot of it is around protecting children and I'm also gonna talk here about the rhetoric around it and the I. D. the ideology that is influenced it I think Senator Tucker is done a great job of delineating the ways that this bill is. Not up to standard of what should be passed good governance as was mentioned in the last yes but I Speaker. Many of the things have been said about protecting children total true with other things inside in this legislature and many of the things that have been put forth that have been passed that opposed. I want to look at H. the fourteen fourteen ten. There is protections from child labor in the workplace all while facility in Arkansas got exposed to harmful work conditions where they had children working. Protecting children as part of the rhetoric Sparham medical practices and things of that sort but there's a refusal to bring up any bill that would put an end to the widely disproven practice of conversion therapy. There is desire to invest in children. And it instead of investing the facilities that schools need to update things like bathrooms ways that they could be made more inclusive HB one one five six punishes schools for accommodating transgender students teachers parents and other staff for guests. In this the committee a bill that would help protect children and other LGBTQ people from violence and a panic defense SP sixty has been tabled indefinitely. Blake this state trustee on the bill itself we appreciate that I do understand that and I I think that a lot of the predicate round a lot of these bills is still related to that so if I'm allowed to continue that would be much appreciated. When supporting this legislation and other legislation here there's talk about there's a lack of understanding around what it means to be transgender the experience that our previous Speaker asked you to walk through and to imagine to walk in somebody else's shoes. As many transgender people and and a quick people in general here bills like this they also hear rhetoric as at that they are abominations. That they are predators that their groomers that they are in some ways a criminal or a disease. This isn't new rhetoric either it's been around for many many years and every time it's been disproven every time it's been. Shown to be false shown to being attacked no matter how much there is a. Reading is to say that this isn't targeting or isn't attacking that's not the experience that is truly happening that's not the experience of people that are hearing this bill and who feel that their basic right to privacy in the bathroom and to use facilities and I play sports and things of that nature they don't it is being it is being attacked. There is. A lot of questions rhetoric around this as well and I want to talk a little bit about. Where that goes awry and. I believe a lot of it points to to run me there are as I mentioned I'm a Christian I've studied a lot of the Bible and religious studies and lead worshipping spaces I've done a lot of work in this space. A lot with folks a lot with people of all genders and and identities Twenty first say that. Every transgender person is loved by god as they are. Secondly. I want to say that. In the gospels Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who held true to their understanding of Teutonic Law. In a way that marginalized many people in the society. It was also true that just the Sunday was in church and we are talking about Nicodemus. And the way that he approached Jesus in the middle of the night to ask questions and curiosity and thank you Miss sometimes gets a bad rap for not understanding which isn't to say But the must try to. You must really like put in the effort to see what she is trying to say which is unlike many of the Pharisees that I come before Jesus that are driven him out the German other people away neediness tried. I'm asking you to please try and listen truly listen to the experience a transgender people what is it really means to be a transgender person in society trying to use the bathrooms trying to Live their life to have kids to Travel to work to go to school. Finally I want to say one last thing on the Christian side of things inflation's three Paul said. The coming of this faith we are held in custody under the law locked up until the faith that was to come will be revealed to the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now the state has come we are no longer under a guardian so Christ Jesus you are all children of god through faith for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile neither slave nor free Fortnite nor is there male and female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. I urge you please. Reject this bill. This is not protecting kids. There are other ways to do that. This bill will undoubtedly be held up in court as many of the legislation is presented for this legislature has no waste precious resources of the states to protect kids it's wasting people's time to protect kids. If you truly believe in protecting kids if you truly believe and. Helping the state I please urge you to stop this bill to stop many of the bills that imprisoned before you around LGBTQ people that we have brought to you that are attacking us. I urge you to do this and courage I urge you to do this from faith I urge you to do this in good government governance. I read you to please stop this bill thank you. Are any any committee members have any questions Blake. I thank you for your testimony Blake if before we leave of pastor used earlier I am we I think we have a question from a committee member for you before you leave. Okay Senator Rapert you're recognized for a question. Thank you appreciate your time the drive down here we all have a long drive lot of several drive him capital to our job you're using to call each by name and what was your statement again for each one child I've got you all children of god from a we are a perspective of faith yeah I agree we are on that but that is not Not something that you can judges not something I can judge it it's a fact I believe Would you agree we have. evidently different interpretations of what god's word says. You mean you and me yes I don't know I haven't. Talk with you enough to know. Whether we have a difference of opinion about god's word but but you understand there can be that. Not sure I understand your question you're asking if the committee differences of opinion there can be a difference between your belief in my belief in what we read and believe it's got to work that happens all the time sure it does so while you are at activist for I called. That that is understandable and I do appreciate you taking the time but we also in our own right. I have beliefs and study and try to have understanding and cry to represent these almost ninety thousand in each of our districts yeah I don't understand it free you agree we do that differences I think that maybe the that's one of the reasons why I kept my statements although I wanted to all I do want to honor each of you as people and then the work that you do I kept my statements to that related to like good governments and what actually treats all our Kansans with respect and value and the and legislation like this doesn't it is I don't know that I don't think that's really a subjective argument I think that's just going to be plain old fact that the people that you're passing potentially this law about will be targeted by this legislation in ways that is an innovation within our form of governance as Senator Tucker has pointed out through multiple questions and again that's reason as legislators we we debated we have different conclusions of what the outcome that we're trying to get to use yeah I again appreciate you being a public thank you. In order. You're recognized close for your bill thank you Mr chair and committee of. Try to keep my comments brief from I don't enjoy grandstanding in and You know I I hate that we had to run this in from the Committee twice because I missed the draft to hear and but out by do I say something I appreciate the two men that sat beside me and quoted scripture and recognize god and profess Christ. it is possible is Senator Rice point out for us to have a difference of opinion. And The first was quoted that the law was our schoolmaster. To bring this technology salvation. And You know the law sets a standard of right and wrong. There for us to deny. That standard. Is not to heed the school master that was given. And I do believe that it's important that we teach our children. There's right and wrong. And. I do believe there's been a lot of rhetoric around this bill. It's not going to stop transgender people from going to the bathroom. Just Askin that they don't expose my kids and grand kids and your kids and grandkids to it because we're trying to teach them a different standard. And. I don't want the prosecution to be easy. It sets a high bar is Senator Tucker pointed out prosecution under this law will be difficult. And it'll be rare. And with any discretion from. Of prosecutor it'll only be in the most Reavis circumstances. Or somebody refused. Common courtesy to those of us that would prefer. That our kids and grandkids not be exposed to certain elements. Of undress by the opposite sex so with that I'm close to I appreciate a good vote. Sure would entertain a motion. We have a motion by Senator key. Motion to what to pass. Pass the bill. Second from Senator Gilmore. Any discussion. All those in favor say aye hi All opposed. Motion passes. All right. So Senator. Right next to my. Okay this is Clark you're of next. Senate bill three eleven. As. And there I understand you have an amendment correct. Amendment. Senator Clark you're recognized to explain the amendment. The Amendment is done to catch some other places in the law believe. No no that's three twelve three eleven of. The of. Bar association's judicial council specifically especially the bar association wanted thought we should be able to go back All child support of the on the date a petition of and the consent to seem to be three years so that's the main thing that this amendment is about. Are any any questions from committee on the amendment. We have a motion to adopt the amendment and second all those in discussion follows very say aye All opposed. It members adopted you may go in the future plan to build Senator Clark. The bill is about limiting of. Wind up of. Hello for back of. Child support can be awarded we've heard of cases in specifically a casement cases were of. We'll talk about one case in particular were a father after. child reach majority or almost majority of the case was brought. and it turned out the father didn't even know we had a child. Of and there was an award later overturned by the Supreme Court of a hundred eighty thousand dollars of. The. We walked out financially The And of course the unfairness of the. I mean we support. Fathers take care of the responsibilities but the fact that he was able to be a day I didn't even know we had a child of we want to of prevent that from happening in the future of all the same time be sure that of those who are do support and those who are supposed to pay support continue to do so that's what the bill is about of. I am not of I just want to give you that synopsis all hope to be back here Wednesday to present it because I still have some have an amendment working well for the judicial council and we still have some issues to work out of so I am going to pull of three eleven down at this point we have a have those amendments done. That's okay with the committee our with questions Senator flowers sure. Trying to understand this amendment. It is eight delete section one in its entirety and then. Substitute the following. And. The Amendment. Section one delude nine ten one eleven eight of the code. Where the for on your bill it was just you dealing with nine fourteen one oh five. And then you say section to. Arkansas Code. Nine fourteen one oh five. Is amended to read as follows. Well on your the the regular bill it's startling Page two line thirty three section two. Arkansas Code nine fourteen one oh six is amended to read as follows. Yes. Following this Senator flowers amendment does two things and I think it'll be clear when it's engrossed well when I come back Wednesday but it does two things the the. I understand the ritual Amendment was just. Child support came to us what original amendment is this the amendment you're talking about the judge's adopted this is the amendment if you allow me to finish if you will allow me to do. And you can answer my question I was trying to will it. It's not following. All the bill you have section two line thirty three starts with Arkansas Code nine fourteen one oh six. Is amended to read as follows. And here in this amendment you have section two Arkansas Code nine fourteen one oh five is amended to read as follows. I'm I'm not understanding this and maybe this amendment is pretty mature here. It doesn't make sense. Can you explain how it makes sense. His or you ready for me to answer if you can answer that question how does this make sense I can't I do have the floor Mr. You're recognized thank you Mr the answer to your question is that. Child support discovered of Bar Association later discovered that there were portions of the law not covered in the regular bill that needed to be covered and. That part of the amendment refers to those parts of the law that we didn't first a catch that's what that's what that does. This is. I don't understand this he said he's putting the bill down I don't understand how aye we adopt this amendment. That doesn't make sense. In terms of comparing to this the bill we just explained it didn't explain. We'll explain to what level would anybody bother any. Can you add anything to this prosecutors are Okay. You just to explain the bill the amendment. K. anybody else committee having things I. I would not already adopted the amendment yes so we've already done we would talk to the amendment and I asked him to pull it down till Wednesday I'm corrected even know why mentoring questions at this point correct. So Senator Clark is agreed to pull the bill down to Wednesday yes all those all those in favor say aye. All opposed. Building pool. Thank you have a. Senate bill. Twelve three twelve. This one is amended to correct a moment for it to. This is language that was asked for Bob. Child support of and we were glad to provide it it doesn't actually doesn't change the meaning of the bill at all just insurers that. They're able to do what they need to do. A. Any questions. Any questions on the member of our committee. Are we have a motion to adopt the amendment I have a motion to adopt the amendment second. All of the favor say aye. All opposed. Members been adopted. The same thing Mister chair updated to get the amendments adopted because we're still discussion with judicial council in these two bills go together I would like to pull this now that's amended I'd like to pull it down. Okay March. Senator Tucker. Just just from a procedural standpoint. I'm not gonna ask you about the substance of the amendment but arson what we're adopting the amendments if you're gonna have another amendment consumer and have to expunge the vote by which these amendments were adopted to adopt a new amendment later. And it's also not going to be engrossed it's not engrossed unless the committee passes the bill after the minutes been adopted so just. I'm especially on three eleven that was an extensive Amendment mop speaking only for myself I love for that to be on the member's own calendar and getting gross four comes back to committee so I could see the whole thing in one final product I want you to make your bill however you see fit. But my preference would be for. US not to adopt the amendments because then you can't even put it on the members of the calendar because it's pending here and for you to come to whatever agreement Houston deem fit with the judicial council put on the members on calendar get engrossing come back here on that's just my two cents from a procedural standpoint for what it's worth. Your point Senator Tucker. Of I had intended to adopt them in passing this morning before we heard from judicial council so. Of. When called up the spill the bill down make a motion that we. Rison the vote on. Are amended SP three twelve. Okay we have a motion to rescind the vote on Senate bill three twelve and the I have a second that's the amendment sorry The Amendment on Senate bill three twelve I have a second all of the favor say aye All opposed. The members been rescinded Mr field told me I would like to make a motion that we rescind the vote on the mending SP three eleven okay we have a motion to rescind the vote on the Senate bill three eleven. Any discussion said we have a motion and a second all in favor say aye opposed are both amendments have been pulled down. These would be presented again on Wednesday the president again on Wednesday okay we will lead them to the active list for Wednesday yes thank you for pointing that out members thank you for your time thank you senator Clark. Senator Hammer. Of. Senate bill one ninety five center yes Sir Mr and it has amendment as well correct yes Sir would you let me explain the amendment yes my. We're letters when handed out or. Sure be okay five DHS join me at the table absolutely senator flowers as question before we began. Is this the same bill we saw a week or so ago. An annual school down I had some questions about. How to engage. The father's father's for fathers rights to be asserted is this the same bill yes ma'am. The Amendment address that. I don't know to go as far as you would like Senator flowers but I think it goes a lot further than where we were. Hammer you're recognized to explain the bit of the amendment. Thank you Mr members of the committee Senator Clark raised the issue about was two weeks long enough so what we did is we this amendment pushes it to where it aligns with the other time tables along the adoption time table mature if you allow my guess from DHS to introduce her so she maybe can give the abbreviated of support of what I just said technically from up attorney's point of view of the chair will let you will go in recognized that for the record. Thank you Mr chairman Sir Ross deputy chief counsel at DHS and what this amendment does is just extend the time period for publication and to the unknown parents to one time a week for four weeks and it also increases the time period to respond to any publication for two thirty days from the date of last publication than from first the date of first publication mark what's your next question of the amendment any questions. She were sent flowers you're recognized. For attorney Ross is this the only amendment that you all could come up with nothing to address of fathers right. Senator flowers the others rights our address I mean that's the punitive father registry is checked their this is goes further to protect those rights than what is currently in the law and it expands it further than and the bill that you repeat the last week. And it's four weeks in the adoption code is what it the publication requirement is currently. And and we're to do us will I see the putative father registry. Is that already something that DHS does yes that's already required by law okay. Any other questions from committee. We have a motion to adopt the amendment. I have a motion the second all and discussion all those in favor say aye. Members been adopted you may go and explain the bill Senator Hammer thank you Mr as amended thank you Mr thank you majority members that are in today were in the room last time when it was presented this just comes back and addresses a concern that was expressed by Senator Clark we brought it to the four week time frame to aligned with what is currently in law so that there would be consistency and with that Mr I'll be glad to answer any questions okay is there any questions from committee members on the bill. Senator Clark. This is Senator Hammer. One appreciate you bringing this bill thank you of it so. The safe haven is a great thing. Of the. But we forget over and over and it's a tough with this one. All the rights and that we assume that. Father knows and father doesn't care and are interested in we can assume that. Of. So the for both. You and the specially for DHS make me comfortable with the fact that. This makes her father doesn't get left out. Thank you. Hey I'll write your question we're just looking for some I think hopefully bring the level. And I appreciate you changing it welcome thank you. And the Senate Senator Clark this bill it does treat parents that the same wearing and the Arkansas is one of the state for the road and either parent to to and use the safe haven statute as of this applies equally to take matters and fathers and. Not only in we discussed by senators here that in these cases when it's a tree safe haven we do not know if the parents are and and so requiring publication that would be required in the adoption statute if if this were not a safe haven surrender and then that there was privately wanting to give her child up for adoption and didn't know who the father was or wouldn't tell who the father was connect four weeks publication would be there and and if you may have yes please so that I think that's what you just said was that. Not safe haven okay if then the mother gives a per child for adoption does not know or does not say who the father is the four weeks. Is what the current law currently is that correct okay that's that's the then that's all we can ask for that's good enough that's all I need to know and and senator that's why we we. The time frame we did was because it aligns with what is currently and if if there's an issue to be discussed on that matter it could probably handle separately in a different piece of legislation but we're just trying to align the the card. No thank you and I know there were those who didn't want to have any at all so thank you welcome thank you. Your committee. Is there anyone in the audience at which you speak for against the bill. You go to the table. Defy yourself for the record you're recognized. Thank you my name's Clint Lancaster I am just here as an attorney who has practiced in a lot of adoption proceedings in domestic relations cases I appreciate the concern for father's rights I will tell you that a father cannot sit on his rights and so when we were in here last time Senator flowers was talking about how as a father it no or how does a father exercises rights the peer to father registry allows a parent a teacher to parent appear to father to register before the child is born that's code Arkansas code annotated twenty dash eighteen dash seven a to see this and so my experience practicing law is there are very few fathers who are punitive fathers who do not have some reason to believe that they may be a punitive father it's more rare that you would see someone who doesn't and the only times that I have seen it here in Arkansas is out of the Little Rock Air Force base where people are stationed here for a brief one or two week training and head out and then they can't find them or they don't know or it was something along those lines but I have seen adoptions be held up because of the peer to father registry and I have seen a parents of fathers rights become established through the peer to bother Registry. One thing that I would urge the committee to keep in mind is that our law favors a family unit we favor a family unit so much that we give you a tax break for being married and having kids the idea is is that a child who has both a mother and a father in his life was that child is more likely to be successful and less likely to be in trouble with the law and if a punitive father will not exercised his rights or make some effort to do it then our law replaces that biological father with a father who will and creates that family unit. I know there've been a few babies placed into the a safe haven box including here in Arkansas and those babies deserve the right to have a family in a family unit that will support them and so I would ask that the Committee passed this bill did very much mimics other adoptions in the time period that's being required and actually extends the time period I believe to file a response so with that said I think this is a great deal in light of Arkansas's anti abortion laws in the supreme court's position I think the state should be prepared to move forward with babies that are put into boxes. All right any questions from committee. Anyone from the audience I have a question. Say no thank you for your testimony thank you Mr chairman. Is there anyone else in the audience that wish to speak for against the bill. Saying senator Hammer was close for you will thank you Mr I would appreciate a good vote I think that this will address an issue that currently has. In reality been experienced and when clarity to those situations and I would just appreciate a good vote Mr. Are we have a motion to pass. Second do pass as amended is amended to secure as amended thank you. Motion do pass as amended. Discussion. Second. All of favour say aye. In a post graduate senator Hammer you Bill pass thank you Mr members of the committee. Hi Senator Tucker you wish to run any of these technical corrections. What about fourteen twenty seven fourteen seventy four. I'd like to pass over fourteen twenty seven and you can keep it on the agenda of fourteen seventy fours not my bill okay. The only other one is. As I say fourteen fifty five it's it's only taken corrections bill I'm happy to run if you want Mr. Yeah we don't have anybody else here on. As you. Here is a representative Graham. Okay so you've got to run the polls. What is what is your bill centreboard. Their house bill two to House bills they're both quick we just need to explain what they don't do fourteen ninety fourteen ninety three in fourteen ninety four. You know what you are fourteen ninety three fourteen ninety four. But you are recognized to explain your your bill thank you my name is representatives that Graham like and I have the county Clerk with me if you can introduce yourself. My name is Margaret order Faulkner County Clerk. so fourteen ninety three we'll start there is first off it is not an increase in fees I know it looks like in but it is not what happened in two thousand three under the Arkansas Code twenty one dash six dash. Four hundred thirteen eighty four there are a series of fees that were listed and you can we can go through those but one of those is the filing of a will or deposited will and it costs five dollars in that section of code here it still says too so this model I just need to be amended to reflect the current fee thank. And if you have any questions I'd love and art Committee you've our next nation of a house bill fourteen ninety three any questions. We have a motion at the proper time. The motion to pass to the second. In discussion. All the favor say aye. Any post. Graduation Graham to keep bill passes thank you Committee now fourteen ninety. Four yes fourteen ninety four all right you're recognized to explain fourteen ninety four thank you fourteen ninety four is another bill that helps our county clerks essentially the again this bill doesn't increase or change fees and anyway what it does is it amends a current section of the law to add all of the marriage license fees in the one place this is done so your county Clerk since of having one's own walks in asking how much does marriage by some cost and they ask why is that and having to flip the different pages of the code to figure out and show someone this is why costs what it does it puts it all in one spot and it makes our counties clerks jobs is a little bit easier. And with that I'll take any questions our Senator Tucker you have questions I think you said this but I just wanna be clear this is not raising any fees and no fees change this is to make it easier on a county clerks to their job thank you and then it's no new faces no new fees no raising fees it's just putting all the fees in one place for the ease of the county clerks and the citizens of Arkansas or any other questions from committee. Is there anyone in the audience would like to speak for against. All right to wherever we have a motion do pass have a second. In discussion. All in favor say aye. All opposed. The Bill pass is thank you jim thank you Committee. Of the call will will not be here today so. Anyone else is there anyone else isn't Tucker I'm sorry we got your. House Bill fourteen fifty five. You're recognized to present house bill fifty forty fifty five thank Mr. More techno corrections bill this is for the dental corrections title seventeen. This really just changes largely the names of of areas within state government is transformation couple other clean up points happy to answer any questions. The Bill any questions from committee. Anyone in the audience which speak for against the bill. We have a motion to pass I have a second discussion. All those in favor say aye. Well opposed graduation Tucker your bill passed thank Mister thank you members.